Blue Wall of Silence

[fgump2]

One of the most important issues about American law enforcement is the differing opinions about the blue wall of silence.
I believe that the blue wall of silence is real, and that it exists in other countries as well, and that it cannot be abolished completely. I also believe that it is porous and unreliable. It resembles the flood control system in New Orleans, sometimes solid and impressive but also unreliable.
I give three reasons why it is unreliable.
I have never heard of a police officer or a police trainee resigning because of disapproval of the blue wall of silence. If the blue wall of silence was anywhere near as reliable as many people think, it would be common for police trainees to resign in protest, and perhaps write a magazine article or book about it. To think otherwise is to assume that most of the people who join the police.are sociopaths.
My second reason is that most people have a hard time keeping an interesting secret. There have been a lot of criminals who have been caught because they talked too much, or one of their buddies did. To list some: Michael Skakel, Gary Hirte (high school golden boy and murderer), Tonya Harding, the cadet couple (David and Diane).In all of these cases people went to prison because someone talked who should have known better. I have known people who got themselves in trouble because they couldn’t keep a secret. A guy I used to know is now in prison because he couldn’t keep a secret. The blue wall of silence can’t keep someone from getting drunk and confessing; nor would it keep someone from feeling guilty and confessing. Everyone has heard of deathbed confessions; the blue wall of silence couldn’t prevent that.
My third reason for believing that the blue wall is unreliable is that in every big organization, there are always resentments, especially about promotions. In most large organizations there are people who can’t talk about promotions without becoming physically angry. People aren’t going to be willing to commit perjury to keep a former boss they resent out of prison.
There are other reasons for resenting coworkers besides promotions, and they all knock holes in the blue wall of silence. I read a story that Mark Fuhrman once painted a swastika in the locker of a gentile (non Jewish) cop who married a Jewish woman. If this is true, then neither Fuhrman nor the other officer would probably feel much loyalty toward each other. If Fuhrman was as racist as some say, would he have lied to protect a black male cop who was married to a white woman? If there answer is no, then we have to think that the blue wall of silence is unreliable. If the answer is no, then we have to think that there were probably a lot of LA cops who wouldn’t have lied to protect Fuhrman. If we believe that the blue wall of silence is unreliable, then we have to think that Fuhrman would have been quite reluctant to frame OJS for murder.
Vannatter and Lange both had unpleasant things to say about Fuhrman. Am I supposed to think that the blue wall of silence caused them to help Fuhrman frame Orenthal Simpson, but didn’t prevent them from harshly criticizing him afterwards? Judge Ito’s wife was another police officer who publicly criticized MF. Am I supposed to think that the blue wall of silence has special loop holes which silence people in some circumstances and not others? Could someone explain the rules to me?
In the cases I have read about where the blue wall of silence existed, the people who followed the code of silence were usually did so partly because of friendship, self protection, and racism; the blue wall of silence was not the only motive involved. I think that the blue wall of silence is strongest when protecting cops who made impulsive mistakes.
I believe that the blue wall of silence is strongest when it protects cops who loose their temper and unfairly use violence against a suspect. There is an element of self protection here, because all cops realize that they might someday make the same mistake. A similar motive exists in the medical profession in that doctors will seldom testify about another doctor’s carelessness. Doctors are much more willing to testify about mistakes that are premeditated, such as fraud, or performing an operation they weren’t qualified for.
Any LE employee who realized that Orenthal Simpson was innocent or who saw evidence that he was being framed (almost the same thing) would have a choice: Join the frame up and risk going to prison, or blow the whistle on it and take a chance on being rich by selling their story to the media. I think most LE employees would choose the second alternative. If we think that even 5% of LE employees would choose the second alternative, then we have to think that Fuhrman would have been extremely foolish to frame OJS. Keep in mind that the people initially participated in the frame up would not know who would examine the evidence, whether OJS had an alibi, or what the neighbors who lived near the murder scene would have seen or heard.
I think that the blue wall of silence does exist, and does protect misbehaving cops. There is a book which describes an example of the blue wall of silence which probably involved racism: Color Lines: The Troubled Dreams of Racial Harmony in an American Town by Mike Kelly There are probably other books with information about the blue wall of silence.

[The R]

Originally Posted by fgump2

One of the most important issues about American law enforcement is the differing opinions about the blue wall of silence.
I believe that the blue wall of silence is real, and that it exists in other countries as well, and that it cannot be abolished completely. I also believe that it is porous and unreliable. It resembles the flood control system in New Orleans, sometimes solid and impressive but also unreliable.
I give three reasons why it is unreliable.
I have never heard of a police officer or a police trainee resigning because of disapproval of the blue wall of silence. If the blue wall of silence was anywhere near as reliable as many people think, it would be common for police trainees to resign in protest, and perhaps write a magazine article or book about it. To think otherwise is to assume that most of the people who join the police.are sociopaths.
My second reason is that most people have a hard time keeping an interesting secret. There have been a lot of criminals who have been caught because they talked too much, or one of their buddies did. To list some: Michael Skakel, Gary Hirte (high school golden boy and murderer), Tonya Harding, the cadet couple (David and Diane).In all of these cases people went to prison because someone talked who should have known better. I have known people who got themselves in trouble because they couldn’t keep a secret. A guy I used to know is now in prison because he couldn’t keep a secret. The blue wall of silence can’t keep someone from getting drunk and confessing; nor would it keep someone from feeling guilty and confessing. Everyone has heard of deathbed confessions; the blue wall of silence couldn’t prevent that.
My third reason for believing that the blue wall is unreliable is that in every big organization, there are always resentments, especially about promotions. In most large organizations there are people who can’t talk about promotions without becoming physically angry. People aren’t going to be willing to commit perjury to keep a former boss they resent out of prison.
There are other reasons for resenting coworkers besides promotions, and they all knock holes in the blue wall of silence. I read a story that Mark Fuhrman once painted a swastika in the locker of a gentile (non Jewish) cop who married a Jewish woman. If this is true, then neither Fuhrman nor the other officer would probably feel much loyalty toward each other. If Fuhrman was as racist as some say, would he have lied to protect a black male cop who was married to a white woman? If there answer is no, then we have to think that the blue wall of silence is unreliable. If the answer is no, then we have to think that there were probably a lot of LA cops who wouldn’t have lied to protect Fuhrman. If we believe that the blue wall of silence is unreliable, then we have to think that Fuhrman would have been quite reluctant to frame OJS for murder.
Vannatter and Lange both had unpleasant things to say about Fuhrman. Am I supposed to think that the blue wall of silence caused them to help Fuhrman frame Orenthal Simpson, but didn’t prevent them from harshly criticizing him afterwards? Judge Ito’s wife was another police officer who publicly criticized MF. Am I supposed to think that the blue wall of silence has special loop holes which silence people in some circumstances and not others? Could someone explain the rules to me?
In the cases I have read about where the blue wall of silence existed, the people who followed the code of silence were usually did so partly because of friendship, self protection, and racism; the blue wall of silence was not the only motive involved. I think that the blue wall of silence is strongest when protecting cops who made impulsive mistakes.
I believe that the blue wall of silence is strongest when it protects cops who loose their temper and unfairly use violence against a suspect. There is an element of self protection here, because all cops realize that they might someday make the same mistake. A similar motive exists in the medical profession in that doctors will seldom testify about another doctor’s carelessness. Doctors are much more willing to testify about mistakes that are premeditated, such as fraud, or performing an operation they weren’t qualified for.
Any LE employee who realized that Orenthal Simpson was innocent or who saw evidence that he was being framed (almost the same thing) would have a choice: Join the frame up and risk going to prison, or blow the whistle on it and take a chance on being rich by selling their story to the media. I think most LE employees would choose the second alternative. If we think that even 5% of LE employees would choose the second alternative, then we have to think that Fuhrman would have been extremely foolish to frame OJS. Keep in mind that the people initially participated in the frame up would not know who would examine the evidence, whether OJS had an alibi, or what the neighbors who lived near the murder scene would have seen or heard.
I think that the blue wall of silence does exist, and does protect misbehaving cops. There is a book which describes an example of the blue wall of silence which probably involved racism: Color Lines: The Troubled Dreams of Racial Harmony in an American Town by Mike Kelly There are probably other books with information about the blue wall of silence.

Couple questions....

You ever been in law enforcement? or have you been affected by a 'blue wall'?

Ever consider what is probably the main reason that a wall wouldn't exist? That reason IMO is the good morals and ethics practiced by the majority of law enforcement employees. Most I know wouldn't just turn their backs on serious violations of the law.

Of course there are bad examples anyone can cite. Those types are in all professions.

ALLMO,
R

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by The R

Couple questions....

You ever been in law enforcement? or have you been affected by a 'blue wall'?

Ever consider what is probably the main reason that a wall wouldn't exist? That reason IMO is the good morals and ethics practiced by the majority of law enforcement employees. Most I know wouldn't just turn their backs on serious violations of the law.

Of course there are bad examples anyone can cite. Those types are in all professions.

ALLMO,
R

R I agree with what you're saying for the most part but I think this blue wall of silence is real. I won't go into details on the board but we can discuss this via other avenues if you like. A good friend of mine died because the "blue wall of silence" protected her abusive DA husband.

You know where to find me.

[fgump2]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

R I agree with what you're saying for the most part but I think this blue wall of silence is real. I won't go into details on the board but we can discuss this via other avenues if you like. A good friend of mine died because the "blue wall of silence" protected her abusive DA husband.

You know where to find me.

I think the blue wall of silence is real in that police are more likely to cover up for each other than are members of other profession. I guess the best term is more professional loyalty than other professions.

I think that in most departments the blue wall of silence isn't as dependable as many people seem to think. I hadn't heard of the blue wall of silence protecting DAs, but I am willing to believe that it happens; i don't question your honesty.
I think it is very rare that the blue wall of silence would produce a situation in which cops felt they could get away with anything as long as there are no video cameras around.
In New York a cop or two rammed a broom stick (or something similar) up a civilian's rectum (ass hole). The blue wall of silence protected him - for a while; but a cop squealed. It was too bad that this happened. I don't defend it; however I think it would be a rare PD in which cops could do things like this and count on the rest of the PD covering up for him.

[Marian Paroo]

Blue wall of silence is everywhere on earth, and more common than we really want to think about

Khaki walls exist, too

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by fgump2

I think the blue wall of silence is real in that police are more likely to cover up for each other than are members of other profession. I guess the best term is more professional loyalty than other professions.

I think that in most departments the blue wall of silence isn't as dependable as many people seem to think. I hadn't heard of the blue wall of silence protecting DAs, but I am willing to believe that it happens; i don't question your honesty.
I think it is very rare that the blue wall of silence would produce a situation in which cops felt they could get away with anything as long as there are no video cameras around.
In New York a cop or two rammed a broom stick (or something similar) up a civilian's rectum (ass hole). The blue wall of silence protected him - for a while; but a cop squealed. It was too bad that this happened. I don't defend it; however I think it would be a rare PD in which cops could do things like this and count on the rest of the PD covering up for him.

fgump I believe it exists within all facets of the law not just the police. There's also the good ol' boys network - do me a favor and I'll do one for you.

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by Marian Paroo

Blue wall of silence is everywhere on earth, and more common than we really want to think about

Khaki walls exist, too

ITA Marian!

[fgump2]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

fgump I believe it exists within all facets of the law not just the police. There's also the good ol' boys network - do me a favor and I'll do one for you.

I think that the blue wall of silence exists, but it is unreliable. SOme people, especially on the OJ Simpson discussion threads, believe that many cops can do almost anything and be protected by other cops. I think that cops do often cover up for each other, but in a rather inconsistent manner.

[Marian Paroo]

Originally Posted by fgump2

I think that the blue wall of silence exists, but it is unreliable. SOme people, especially on the OJ Simpson discussion threads, believe that many cops can do almost anything and be protected by other cops. I think that cops do often cover up for each other, but in a rather inconsistent manner.

My guess it would mostly, but not only in cases involving domestic violence.

[wind149]

Having worked in LE, I can speak for my dept and not once did my Sheriff try to cover up something someone did or didn't do. We had a deputy that was stealing gas if you can believe it, we had 4 pumps across the county and one of my details was to keep track of all the gas, and the guys when they were starting their shift, they would fill the tanks, and give me the starting mileage because we billed the contract towns for both and it was essential for all these records to be accurate, but you know guys. I would have remind them at the very minute they go 10-8 to fill the cars, or top them off as the last shift would not do so, just gave the ending mileage. Now if they went on a transport, out of town or out of the the state they used a company credit car on the road and just kept the slips to turn over to me. All of a sudden, the gas amounts were not adding up and I sent out a memo to all of them reminding them that this was vital and they all said that they were advising dispatch and they were, I looked up the log.

I noticed that all of it seemed to be missing from our Mountain office and I told the Sgt and he said he would look in to it. When I tallied up the gas for the month, there were 200 plus gallons not accounted for and I spent all night staring at these gas slips, the log book, and once again, I could not find any of it. Now these pumps are under lock and key, and only our dept was allowed to use them, so it occurred to me that we had a thief amongst us and I brought it up again to the Sgt and he was also concerned and he set up a camera in a tree near the pumps and put another at dispatch and these cameras would beep to let you know that the other one is picking up something and there in plain sight is a fairly new deputy working the Mtn, filling his own truck. I was like not surprised, but hurt that he would did this and the Sheriff saw the tape that morning and called him in the office and fired him right on the spot!!! He tried to deny that he stole the gas, till he saw the video and the Sheriff asked him why did he not ask permission? Once in awhile if we all were broke, we could use the office pump to put a few gallons in, I did when I ran out of gas, but we would pay it back and this bird thought he was putting one over the Sgt, hoping he would be the one to get in trouble because he was responsible for the Mtn office because he did not like Claude and he had lofty ambitions. like he wanted to be Sgt?? All the guys that worked with him told me later, that he was a jerk, a know it all and now a thief!! I did not see him often, he had only worked there about 5 months and now he works for a less than reputable dept. SO we did not adhere to the wall of blue in the sense that we covered for each other criminally, he was no better than a common street thief and he got kicked out of the best dept in VT! We all took an oath if integrity and I honored it and still do.

[BeastofBears]

Originally Posted by fgump2

I think that the blue wall of silence exists, but it is unreliable. SOme people, especially on the OJ Simpson discussion threads, believe that many cops can do almost anything and be protected by other cops. I think that cops do often cover up for each other, but in a rather inconsistent manner.

I think it is in anything, though. Sure, cops, but say for example in a shop someone dents the truck or accidently breaks the lift. Would the guys go out of their way to point out the "culprit" to management? Not really. It's the same thought process, us versus them, but those of us out of LE just pay more attention to it because it affects us all since they, frankly, can push us all around and we also depend on them.

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by BeastofBears

I think it is in anything, though. Sure, cops, but say for example in a shop someone dents the truck or accidently breaks the lift. Would the guys go out of their way to point out the "culprit" to management? Not really. It's the same thought process, us versus them, but those of us out of LE just pay more attention to it because it affects us all since they, frankly, can push us all around and we also depend on them.

I beleive if it is something that can be completely covered up with no leaks we have a Wall of Blue. otherwise if it is something that will make the news, public or higher ups. no Blue Wall. I have watched many times cops off duty be pulled over for OUIL and taken home. that is it. Now we had a officer kill his wife and try make it look like suicide but way too many cops and ME could see it was not and he was arrested and in prison for the rest of his life IMO sara

[BeastofBears]

Originally Posted by SaraSidle

I beleive if it is something that can be completely covered up with no leaks we have a Wall of Blue. otherwise if it is something that will make the news, public or higher ups. no Blue Wall. I have watched many times cops off duty be pulled over for OUIL and taken home. that is it. Now we had a officer kill his wife and try make it look like suicide but way too many cops and ME could see it was not and he was arrested and in prison for the rest of his life IMO sara

Exactly. People will only stick their neck out just so far...like our officer Johannes Mesehrle out here. Doesn't look like anyone is covering for him...(here's a clip if you aren't familiar-potentially disturbing.)

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by BeastofBears

Exactly. People will only stick their neck out just so far...like our officer Johannes Mesehrle out here. Doesn't look like anyone is covering for him...(here's a clip if you aren't familiar-potentially disturbing.)

no they aren't. I found the info on him and I cannot imagine what he was thinking at the time. IMO sara

[BeastofBears]

Originally Posted by SaraSidle

no they aren't. I found the info on him and I cannot imagine what he was thinking at the time. IMO sara

The theory almost everyone has is he thought he was drawing his taser, but it was his gun instead. Even he seemed surprised when the gun went off. But he's not talking, so I'm just glad he's not working for BART anymore-I take it sometimes!

[BeastofBears]

Here's a good one from India (warning, the photos are disturbing, but you have to click on the slide show to see them, so the text is safe)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6741332.ece

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by BeastofBears

Here's a good one from India (warning, the photos are disturbing, but you have to click on the slide show to see them, so the text is safe)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6741332.ece

that is just so baaaad. I mean murder by police. good thing it is on camera. Now the world can see what a sacrifice the victim made. IMO sara

[wind149]

Shows you just how barbaric they all are over there, any wonder people who come from there murder innocent people in this country? And nothing, despite the video is going to happen to the police, they are as corrupt over there as the citizens. Now you all know why I want them to stay in their own countries and not come over here and act like laws do not apply to them? They would be in jail for the rest of their lives if they were American cops! Lat week, I read an article about an Indian child, barely 8, was MARRIED to a 45 year old man and her parents gave their blessings!!! She refused to have anything to do with the man and her father beat her to a pulp and ordered her back to the hubby and this poor child has no one to help her except for a woman who really tries to help kids like this from becoming sex toys and slaves for these barbaric scumbags!!! And she was jailed as a result of attempt to free the child, but there was an American journalist who knew the whole story and contacted Hillary and the minute she got involved, the scum let the woman go and the child was taken to a safe house and she will probably be brought to this country.Now s*it like this pisses me off to no end. Had not these wonderful caring people intervened, this child would be used and abused by her "husband" and her scumbag parents approve of this and actually married her off to that pig!!! The woman is looking into possibly charging them with abuse and rape too because of their approval and some Raja over there wants her dead because he believes that children should obey their parents and her husband???? And it is no one's business that this child was raped and abused??? Also money exchanged hands, apparently the pig has money and paid mommy and daddy a cool $15,000 to buy his "bride" Total animals those people are and now you all know why I hate anyone from India and the Middle East and even Africa because they pimpout their own kids over there too!!

[Marian Paroo]

Nothing new about these wretched child "brides" in India.

Mary Daly, Andrea Dworkin and other "radical" feminists wrote about it decades ago, and the average American said that they were just a buncha hysterical lesbians, things like don't happen no more.

[wind149]

I agree, this happens all the time over there and I find it disgusting!! The same show I watched featured a 8 year old girl whose sister sold her for about $800 to a brothel and that poor child was luckily saved by that same woman and is in a safe house out of India. These people are inhuman to sell their own flesh and blood for money and everyone wonders why I have such a problem with these barbarians? And these poor kids, think of how many that are not being saved, little villages full of sex slaves and domestic slaves and the cops and the Prime Minister looks the other way, hell the cops are being bought off and no one cares about these little girls who should be playing with Barbies, and instead their scumbag parents sell them to some pig and she has to give blow jobs instead being able to be a child and if you can't count on your parents to love and cherish you, who can you count on? And they also arrange marriages over there still and the women have no choice but to marry some guy Daddy promised her to for the price of a camel and if she objects, he has the right to kill her?? And you wonder why I don't want these evil people in my country?