Ray Gricar - Missing DA

[J. J. in Phila]

This is a thread dedicated to the disappearance of Ray Gricar, reported missing on 4/15/05. Note that the fourth year anniversary is approaching.

[One2Snoop]

Wow, has it been that long and still no trace?

I thought we used to have a discussion thread on this. I'll check around and see if I can find it.

[One2Snoop]

No luck. If its been 4 years I must be thinking of when CL and CTV were still together on the same link. CL split from CTV back in Feb. 2006.


Thanks for the update J.J.

[J. J. in Phila]

I inherited the Centre Daily Times blog, so it is still in the public eye, sort of.

There has been some additional information out in the last 18 months; I have managed to compile a rough witness list.

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

I inherited the Centre Daily Times blog, so it is still in the public eye, sort of.

There has been some additional information out in the last 18 months; I have managed to compile a rough witness list.

I'm curious, do you think he was murdered or committed suicide?
I hope you'll post your additional info along with the link to your blog. I'm interested in reading what you have. Thanks.

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the blog: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/ It is called Sporadic Comments.

if you go back far enough, you'll she how I got it. It was a choice between me and nobody.

Right now, I give the odds at being 48% Walkaway, 43% Murder, 8% Suicide, and 1% something else. I did explain the "something else," but I'll be discussing the other three, in detail, after 4/15/05.

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

Here is the blog: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/ It is called Sporadic Comments.

if you go back far enough, you'll she how I got it. It was a choice between me and nobody.

Right now, I give the odds at being 48% Walkaway, 43% Murder, 8% Suicide, and 1% something else. I did explain the "something else," but I'll be discussing the other three, in detail, after 4/15/05.

I admit I've not kept up on this case and basically shelved it into the cold case file but I have to ask why you won't be discussing anything until after April 15th? Just curious but are you one of those people who wait til the nth hour to file their income tax and that's why you can't get to it until after April 15th? or what??????

In the meantime, I'll attempt to read up on the case until we hear from you further? 48% walkaway and 43% murder? Hmmmm? I guess we've waited 4 years, we can certainly wait for your input after April 15th.

[J. J. in Phila]

I have an extension (and the US owes me money).

Actually, with a few exceptions, I've been trying to lay out the known evidence (and some details were unknown). I wanted the theories, and the percentages, to be based on the evidence. That was the first reason.

The second reason is because I want focus on what LE could or should do around 4/15/05. After that, I want to move into the possibilities.

[Willoughby]

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?

[Serendipitous1]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?

Your assertion and logic escape me Willoughby. I do not remember reading any such thing about the cigarette scent and ash. And though the simplest answer may very well be the correct one, I do not believe there is anything "simple" about this case.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?

There is no lack of evidence; a summary of what has been reported should be up by the end of the week. Hint: It doesn't point in one direction.

The answer might be complex.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

Your assertion and logic escape me Willoughby. I do not remember reading any such thing about the cigarette scent and ash. And though the simplest answer may very well be the correct one, I do not believe there is anything "simple" about this case.

It was in the CDT's Q&A on Gricar, which also has since disappeared. I'm a big fan of your posts, S1. And I congratulate you on your efforts to see someone capable elected Centre County DA. Stacy Parks Miller is the best hope for ever seeing an answer as to what happened to Ray Gricar.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

There is no lack of evidence; a summary of what has been reported should be up by the end of the week. Hint: It doesn't point in one direction.

The answer might be complex.

I'm looking forward to it, J.J.

And no, I wouldn't expect anything to point in one direction. Any theory it seems can be argued successfully in this case. And that's what draws me in. How can a man simply drop off of the face of the earth like Mr. Gricar did?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

I'm looking forward to it, J.J.

And no, I wouldn't expect anything to point in one direction. Any theory it seems can be argued successfully in this case. And that's what draws me in. How can a man simply drop off of the face of the earth like Mr. Gricar did?

Some more so than others.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

It was in the CDT's Q&A on Gricar, which also has since disappeared. I'm a big fan of your posts, S1. And I congratulate you on your efforts to see someone capable elected Centre County DA. Stacy Parks Miller is the best hope for ever seeing an answer as to what happened to Ray Gricar.

Thanks...and thanks...and I do agree about SPM.

I see you are a fellow TZ fan...maybe!? The story line is interesting...burned-out businessman, overwhelmed by job and wife, recurring dream about a train which makes an unscheduled stop at a town called “Willoughby”, with a twist at the end of course...it is The Twilight Zone after all. Any intended symbolism there?

[Politigal]

I created a repository of links to news & archives, comments from colleagues, photos and timeline in the Ray Gricar case:

http://politigal.googlepages.com/

and Ray Gricar's colleague of almost 20 yrs (who is also currently running for DA in Centre County) - J. Karen Arnold - also created a site with some good history on how Gricar ran his office, etc:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/

and of course, Ray Gricar's family website is here:

http://raygricar.com/

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

Thanks...and thanks...and I do agree about SPM.

I see you are a fellow TZ fan...maybe!? The story line is interesting...burned-out businessman, overwhelmed by job and wife, recurring dream about a train which makes an unscheduled stop at a town called “Willoughby”, with a twist at the end of course...it is The Twilight Zone after all. Any intended symbolism there?

That's where it's from, yes. I love that episode. The TZ kind of ambiguity at the shocking ending. Is the businessman alive and for the first time, happy, or is he dead? Or did he really find a place where he could slow down and live his life "full measure?" So, the symbolism was partly intended. But sometimes don't we all yearn for a town like the fictional Willoughby? I do.

For the longest time that's what I thought became of RG, that at the end of his career, after two marriages, he just wanted to get off a world that was going by too fast for him. I thought he severed all his ties, financially and otherwise, and ended it as his brother had years before. I thought the divers just somehow missed the body.

Now, I really have no idea what became of him, as if he too walked into the Twilight Zone. Or someone put him there.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

That's where it's from, yes. I love that episode. The TZ kind of ambiguity at the shocking ending. Is the businessman alive and for the first time, happy, or is he dead? Or did he really find a place where he could slow down and live his life "full measure?" So, the symbolism was partly intended. But sometimes don't we all yearn for a town like the fictional Willoughby? I do.

For the longest time that's what I thought became of RG, that at the end of his career, after two marriages, he just wanted to get off a world that was going by too fast for him. I thought he severed all his ties, financially and otherwise, and ended it as his brother had years before. I thought the divers just somehow missed the body.

Now, I really have no idea what became of him, as if he too walked into the Twilight Zone. Or someone put him there.

"Little Girl Lost" might be more appropriate.

My first thoughts were "probably suicide, possibly murder, or an accident." In all cases, I expected the body to have eventually been fished out of the Susquehanna. It hasn't been.

[Serendipitous1]

Guess the other board is in holiday mode.

This is just a video clip from 4/18/05. There are some other clips and stills, if you search around this site.

[Willoughby]

And so it has come to pass ...

http://www.centredaily.com/news/loca...y/1228044.html

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

And so it has come to pass ...

http://www.centredaily.com/news/loca...y/1228044.html

Note the careful wording by the detective, especially this line from the story.

"It was believed that pending Mr. Gricar’s retirement, he may have wanted to erase his county issued laptop computer prior to returning the laptop to the District Attorney’s office.”

It "WAS" believed. All past tense, most certainly, for a reason. As I'd posted on the other boards last week, the investigation is over. It is just a matter of when the official announcement is made.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

Note the careful wording by the detective, especially this line from the story.

"It was believed that pending Mr. Gricar’s retirement, he may have wanted to erase his county issued laptop computer prior to returning the laptop to the District Attorney’s office.”

It "WAS" believed. All past tense, most certainly, for a reason. As I'd posted on the other boards last week, the investigation is over. It is just a matter of when the official announcement is made.

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

If anything has become clear during these past two days, it is that police know far more than they are saying, J.J. If he did indeed get out of Lewisburg, police most likely know how he did it. There is a reason this is coming out now. The endgame seems to have begun.

And if I was the "helper," as I've seen you describe it, I'd be very, very worried right now.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

What do you make of the fact police kept this information away from the family, and did not even bother to call them after the press release went out? Tony Gricar had to call them after learning of the revelations from the Centre Daily Times.

That too, speaks volumes.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

What do you make of the fact police kept this information away from the family, and did not even bother to call them after the press release went out? Tony Gricar had to call them after learning of the revelations from the Centre Daily Times.

That too, speaks volumes.

Yes it does, as does the day.

[Willoughby]

I feel like I'm talking to myself here. So ...

[Serendipitous1]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

If anything has become clear during these past two days, it is that police know far more than they are saying, J.J. If he did indeed get out of Lewisburg, police most likely know how he did it. There is a reason this is coming out now. The endgame seems to have begun.

And if I was the "helper," as I've seen you describe it, I'd be very, very worried right now.

It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

I feel like I'm talking to myself here. So ...

You are not and I hope you stay.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

They can "cut the cord" when they have a knife. This wasn't the knife.

I have the distinct feeling that I hear the sound of steel on a whetstone.

[Serendipitous1]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

They can "cut the cord" when they have a knife. This wasn't the knife.

I have the distinct feeling that I hear the sound of steel on a whetstone.

So you are thinking 'door #2', with #3 thrown in as a bonus?

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

So you are thinking 'door #2', with #3 thrown in as a bonus?

Provide some evidence of how RFG got out of Lewisburg, and I'll choose a door.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

I find the timing extremely disturbing, Serendipitous1. It is solely my hunch, but I believe all of this is a well orchestrated ploy by Michael Madeira to do several things.

Again, I feel this is the beginning of the endgame for this investigation. Well, I feel the investigation already is over. Like I'd said quite correctly on the other boards before being run off well before the latest stunner, the rabbit started coming out of the hat at the infamous hard drive press conference. They are cutting the cord. They just haven't whipped out THEE knife yet. We're getting small doses to make walkaway more palatable, for when Gricar joins Mel Wiley.

I read this story with great interest ...

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fu...ews/?cid=81841

SW says he hopes this will generate more leads? What, do they believe Gricar is alive and this pressure will force him out of hiding, wherever he is?

And in this interview, he mentions bringing about closure for law enforcement. For law enforcement.

Madeira needs to make a splash to keep his job. Solving the Gricar case with or without a body would be big. So police are releasing "new" information they actually have known for years, easing the public into the icy waters so to speak, getting them used to the idea. The big news is coming. They have something big they're going to drop on us at a more opportune time for Michael Madeira.

This "new" information - this all makes me sick - also discredits Bob Buehner to an extent. Buehner is a massive political thorn in Madeira's side, a thorn, how did you once put it, "One-Term Mike," very much wants to see removed.

MM is pulling the strings here, and MR and SW are merely his puppets. They have to be, as MM is the chief law enforcement officer in this county, for better or for worse.

The thing is, until LE is honest with us for a change, we'll never know. They lie to us, again and again and again. They tell us they have nothing new. As we now know, that is just another lie. So as LE piles it up, we are essentially wasting our time S1. Even when they do announce Gricar walked away from his life, how to we believe that, with LE's credibility being nil?

As my screen name implies, I thought he committed suicide. But I no longer trust LE. So how will we ever know?

[J. J. in Phila]

The timing was political, obviously.

I trust Rickard, however, he is holding back.

If this is walkaway, there will be evidence. My bet is that he knows if that evidence exists or not.

My bet is that MM is re-elected.

There is still one reasonably good possibility for murder out there.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

The timing was political, obviously.

I trust Rickard, however, he is holding back.

If this is walkaway, there will be evidence. My bet is that he knows if that evidence exists or not.

My bet is that MM is re-elected.

There is still one reasonably good possibility for murder out there.

I'm with you on all points. Sadly, I now agree MM will be re-elected. I'd tried to explain why SPM was our best hope, but was rebuked by certain posters who are rooting for a dark horse who, very sadly, can't beat MM.

But then again, Kurt Warner was bagging groceries before he went on to win the Super Bowl. Anything's possible I guess.

Remember, MM also has the re-trial murder case coming up of Andrew Rogers. Yes, he withheld evidence. But once he convicts Rogers again, the public won't care. Madeira will have won another trial. And the electorate tends to have a rather short memory.

Then he'll announce the Gricar disappearance as solved. Hello second term.

[Willoughby]

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ...

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ...

Now that I look, I don't think any of the candidates said a word on this. Anywhere. Please let me know if you find anything.

[Serendipitous1]

You are no doubt right about Madeira's re-election strategy...but I would not throw the towel in just yet, Willoughby. There are several issues on which MM will be challenged. And I believe his mishandling of this investigation should be one of them...even (or especially) if he should declare 'closure'.

It will be interesting to see where the endorsements fall and when. And it will be interesting to see the registration numbers in the fall...students back and all.

But the Democrats absolutely must put the strongest contender on the ballot. So for the moment, I am mostly interested in watching them. And what I have 'seen' lately (particularly the last couple of days) is a most uneasy, disconcerting silence.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by Serendipitous1

You are no doubt right about Madeira's re-election strategy...but I would not throw the towel in just yet, Willoughby. There are several issues on which MM will be challenged. And I believe his mishandling of this investigation should be one of them...even (or especially) if he should declare 'closure'.

It will be interesting to see where the endorsements fall and when. And it will be interesting to see the registration numbers in the fall...students back and all.

But the Democrats absolutely must put the strongest contender on the ballot. So for the moment, I am mostly interested in watching them. And what I have 'seen' lately (particularly the last couple of days) is a most uneasy, disconcerting silence.

It is my deepest and most sincere hope that those of us following Ray Gricar's case will unite in backing a Democratic candidate and then doing all possible to help him or her win. I've made it no secret I'm behind Stacy Parks Miller. Everything is riding on this. If MM holds on, any hope of finding the truth about what happened April 14-15 will be lost.

[J. J. in Phila]

Originally Posted by Willoughby

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ...

Your "bagging groceries" comment was most apporpos.

The strategy, if JKA is the nominee, is to paint her as a "conspiracy theorist." Whether or not she really is one is immaterial.

You mentioned her fascination with me. If you do live in State College, I'd bet you could find my real identity in 48 hours (and I'd wager you already know it). If you went to Penn State, make that 48 minutes, with a lunch break. Madeira can very easily use that to illustrate the point. I can't even stop him.

I don't think the truth will be lost, if we are vigilant and make sure the conclusions are based on fact. But, I fully expect there will be more to come.

[Willoughby]

Originally Posted by J. J. in Phila

Your "bagging groceries" comment was most apporpos.

The strategy, if JKA is the nominee, is to paint her as a "conspiracy theorist." Whether or not she really is one is immaterial.

You mentioned her fascination with me. If you do live in State College, I'd bet you could find my real identity in 48 hours (and I'd wager you already know it). If you went to Penn State, make that 48 minutes, with a lunch break. Madeira can very easily use that to illustrate the point. I can't even stop him.

I don't think the truth will be lost, if we are vigilant and make sure the conclusions are based on fact. But, I fully expect there will be more to come.

Oh, I'm sure more is coming. But those who believe Gricar was murdered are going to be furious when it does.