Photos of the body at the crime scene

[susie31023]

Ok guys, I went searching and although I don't agree with Rotten.com somehow they have the actual pictures of Betty as she was found on 1/15/4. They are very graphic so please don't click on the link if you are squeamish. You can enlarge the pics and see just how badly she was tortured. It almost looks like someone had put some kind of restraint around her head in the first photo. The link below should take you to the 6 photos. She also had a chunk cut out of her left leg...so very very sad to see just what the killer did to her.

http://poetry.rotten.com/black-dahlia/

[grneyes]

How horrific. That was one vicious SOB. I wonder if this was an isolated case or if there were others that weren't connected to him?

[SaraSidle]

Does anyone know what the white objects are next to Beth's head and left arm?

[susie31023]

Sara I read on another board that they were concrete sacks. Not sure if they were a part of the crime scene or just trash.

grneyes, I agree whoever did this was a very sadistic Ba$*%$. I really don't like that site but it does give us the actual way she looked so that maybe we can at least determine what injuries she had. Haven't been able to find the autopsy report. I don't think the LE released that. I just feel so sad that she died in this horrible way.~Susie

[SaraSidle]

Joseph or Lydecker do you have any idea if those concrete bags are related to Beth's death?

[Drumbum]

Some of the most disturbing crime scene photos I've ever seen. Perhaps, only second to Mary Jane Kelly. From the looks of Liz, I think this was personal, a black hatred spurred this attack.

[susie31023]

DB, I thought the same thing. You can see what torture she went through and it was very personal. JMO

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

I think I'm right that her body was dragged on the bags to the dump site or her body was in the bags and dragged to the dump site. Not sure if they were concrete though. Have to go and look that up.
I think they were used so the perp wouldn't get a mess in his car. Fastidious little creature that he was.

I wonder where he got the bags??? HMMMMM

[Drumbum]

Look at the multiple stab wounds to her vaginal area. Where have we seen this before Joseph?

This type of violence raises two questions in my mind. Is it possible that the perp and vic were intimate? or Was the perp impotent or suffered from some other sexual dysfunction?

[susie31023]

But where did the cement go? He would have had to empty them first. I just don't see why he would use cement...unless he used it to get rid of the weapons he had tortured her with. JMO

[Drumbum]

This case is frustrating like JtR.

[Seashell]

Cement bags?
what kind of cement work was goin on in Hollywood during those times? did the bags have a company name on them?
I found the images very disturbing and i cant imagine what she must have gone through its too awfull to even imagine this...
poor soul

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Seashell

Cement bags?
what kind of cement work was goin on in Hollywood during those times? did the bags have a company name on them?
I found the images very disturbing and i cant imagine what she must have gone through its too awfull to even imagine this...
poor soul

Thank you Seashell. I think that is where Susie and I were going. Major piece of evidence and we do not know where it came from. I actually the the murders are alike also in some ways as JTR. only this one used grass in the vagina. and while I am sure dr's have rage attacks I do not know who did this one.......

[susie31023]

The pictures are horrific Seashell. When I first saw them I wasn't sure of whether I should post the link but I decided that to really put the injuries in perspective some could look at them for themselves. It is just so sad that one human being could do this to another..As for the sacks I couldn't find whether they were involved or not. Not sure why he would have looked for sacks to use, but who knows. We know so little facts in this case...JMO

[Jules100]

I think this is the most horrific crime scene pics that i have ever seen - i can't get how the perp was able to do this without being seen- i'll be honest and admit that i have not read much about this case so would be happy to hear from you all who know more

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Jules100

I think this is the most horrific crime scene pics that i have ever seen - i can't get how the perp was able to do this without being seen- i'll be honest and admit that i have not read much about this case so would be happy to hear from you all who know more

There is a lot of information on the internet. blackdahlia.com is good. and a lot of books. very interesting. IMO

[susie31023]

JB, please don't start your mantra. I am sick and holding my arms out in front of me would exhaust me at the moment, LOL

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by susie31023

JB, please don't start your mantra. I am sick and holding my arms out in front of me would exhaust me at the moment, LOL

besides it is not true there is not always a doctor. Open your mind. think outside the box.........lol

[susie31023]

Besides wearing this dang dress, I fear it will fall down. And then what will I do, LOL. You must think of these things JB..I am trying to be a loyal member of your clan especially since I was the first, but you have to think about my safety too dear.....

[susie31023]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Sara, I'll think all around the box to make you happy but it doesn't change the fact that: THERE HAS TO BE A DOCTOR SOMEWHERE.

No-one except a skilled doctor or surgeon could have dissected her like that.
With that precision. And no, the crime scene photos aren't pretty but that's how she was left.
Lots of you have looked at the photos. Why do you think she was posed like that? And she was posed. What's the message?

I agree JB the body was posed. Now I'm trying to figure out what the cut across her mouth meant. Was it just because he wanted to or is there some deeper meaning? I'm thinking it has a deeper meaning..as for the posing, he seemed to be laying her out in a grotesque way. Something like a signal to what could happen to someone who didn't listen to him., or maybe if you sleep with just anyone then this could happen to you..Sorry this sounds rambling but I just can't put what I want to say into words, LOL.

My thoughts are that the one who cut her in half was a doctor, because it was so precise. I find it hard to believe that someone with no skill and knowledge could have done this part..now was it the same guy? I have no idea..That missing week holds the key in my opinion. Also one thing I wanted to point out is why did he take time to wash her and drain all the blood? If he were just going to pose her he really didn't have to do all of that. I think that's another key.

In my opinion this was someone who cared for her in some way. I think the evidence points to that. For no one to have ever come forward with any credible evidence is unbelieveable. Surely this person[unless he died soon afterward] would have found the need to clear his conscious once and for all....

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by susie31023

I agree JB the body was posed. Now I'm trying to figure out what the cut across her mouth meant. Was it just because he wanted to or is there some deeper meaning? I'm thinking it has a deeper meaning..as for the posing, he seemed to be laying her out in a grotesque way. Something like a signal to what could happen to someone who didn't listen to him., or maybe if you sleep with just anyone then this could happen to you..Sorry this sounds rambling but I just can't put what I want to say into words, LOL.

My thoughts are that the one who cut her in half was a doctor, because it was so precise. I find it hard to believe that someone with no skill and knowledge could have done this part..now was it the same guy? I have no idea..That missing week holds the key in my opinion. Also one thing I wanted to point out is why did he take time to wash her and drain all the blood? If he were just going to pose her he really didn't have to do all of that. I think that's another key.

In my opinion this was someone who cared for her in some way. I think the evidence points to that. For no one to have ever come forward with any credible evidence is unbelieveable. Surely this person[unless he died soon afterward] would have found the need to clear his conscious once and for all....

the draining of the blood is something a coroner or FH does. The mouth means she talks to much or worse. What is the cut in half mean?

[susie31023]

Originally Posted by SaraSidle

the draining of the blood is something a coroner or FH does. The mouth means she talks to much or worse. What is the cut in half mean?

Not sure Sara unless he was seperating the part the partcared about/loved from the part he hated...just a thought that crossed my mind

[grneyes]

Maybe the cutting her in half was done for transporting her. Possible he used bags or similar to carry her in and half a body would be a lot easier to handle I would think. Especially if it was a small sized man or woman that did it.

[susie31023]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi. There has been discussion that she was cut in half to make transportation easier. It's as good a theory as any. There has to be a message in the posing of her remains. She could have been dumped or buried anywhere never to be found. She was meant to be found, in a public place, where anyone could see what had become of her.

JB, I agree she was posed for a reason. I also think whoever cut her in half meant to do it. It doesn't make sense that he would have just cut her in half to transport her. He needed her to be cut in order to pose her. I think it was a message but what that message was I have no idea. I also think he meant to humiliate her memory by doing what he did to her...Just my opinion though...Wish we knew a little more..JMO

[susie31023]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Wish I knew lots more Susie. You know, for a case as infamous as this, you'd think there'd be lots of reputable websites crammed with info about the case. There really aren't that many websites and there are only a few that I'd rate as useful.[/quote

]

I agree JB. There aren't very many credible websites on the murder. I have looked and looked but most try to make the evidence fit instead of just letting it go where it needs to. I still believe her posed body was meant to send a message to someone just not sure who. I realize we will probably never know and that is what's so sad in this case. She died a horrific death and 61 yrs. later we are no closer to finding the truth than they were 61 yrs. ago..JMO

[susie31023]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Yeah Susie. It's the same with Jack the R. Authors take the facts they want to support their suspect and ignore the rest of the facts which don't fit in. Just because there is something that doesn't play your way, if you're reputable and sincerely interested in forwarding knowledge about the case, then you present it also.

Apprently that's how it was/is done.Makes no sense to me either JB...

[susie31023]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

It's called making a buck Susie. Big time. 'I have a new theory rah rah rah' and off they go. Doesn't matter that the links they have are tenuous. Or the conclusions they draw are fatuous.

Sigh. I want to get my hands on the full autopsy report, coroner's report, police interviews and records of any and all physical evidence to do the case.

I would too JB, but I don't think it has been released yet. Seems as if they would release it after all these years....

[Jules100]

Originally Posted by SaraSidle

There is a lot of information on the internet. blackdahlia.com is good. and a lot of books. very interesting. IMO

Thanks for that , i will go and take a look

[aldred]

I thought she was dumped further away from the street than what is evident in those photos. The position of her arms could be the result of the way she was bound up ante mortem, and rigor doing the rest.

The Man Ray connection that Hodel makes seem less likely as the symmetry is quite off between the body halves. A quick dump, it seems to me. Placement possibly a further defilement.

A booze hound sadist who went too far.

[aldred]

I didn't mean to imply that she was put at the scene in any attempt to "hide" her body. I just don't know anything about the area in question save from the crime scene pictures. She had to have been carried from a parked vehicle. I just have a hard time seeing that whoever did that stayed around for any extended period of time to do more than just put the pieces on the ground, and get the heck out of there.

It's an open area and thus easy to control in terms of possible onlookers. Was there any street lights? Do they have any idea of what AM it was?

The feces in her stomach. Is it known whether she was force fed or if they had been pressed up from the bowel?

[susie31023]

JB, I agree that whoever did this took the time to pose her the way he wanted her. The body doesn't look "dumped" it's just too much to think that it would fall in that position. The arms I'm really not sure of, could be from where she was tied. Also we have to remember that this was in 1947 and there would not have been as much traffic in the area as there is today, thereby giving the killer less urgency to clear the area. Just an opinion~Susie

[aldred]

Does anyone know the exact address of the site where her body was found. I want to find a map of the place. Steve Hodel mentions a street named Degnan. The district is Crenshaw, I think. The area, Leimert Park...

I looked at some other pictures at the bethshort website. Just wondering if there was any wildlife predators roaming that part of L.A. that could have attempted to drag the torso away from its original placement.

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Thirty-ninth St and Norton Avenue in Leimert Park. West of downtown LA.

Hope this helps.

I knew you would know it off the top of your head. thank you

[aldred]

...

Leimert Park was developed by Walther H. "Tim" Leimert in 1928. Wikipedia mentions that South Norton Avenue 3800 was where BD was found. It was initially an all white community for low and middle class people. Today it has a 91.7% afro american population.

Degnan Blv. and S. Norton is separated by two streets. I tried locating a map from the 1940ies but that was harder.

[Karin]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Not sure on the net where you could find a map for west LA c1940's but maybe if someone reads this they can help. Don't rely too much on Wikipedia for hard and fast info. Good for general background.

good day jb, true about wiki, not considered to be a reliable source..can't use it in any of my grad classes...

[BJ_BOBBI_JO]

My goodness that is awful. How could anyone do that?

I dont know anything about that poor womans story but I can only hope she died fast. I feel bad for her family it must be so painful for them to know their dead loved ones picture of her torn and naked body is out there in cyber space for everyone to look at. I think that is so wrong and disrespectful of the police or whomever it was that allowed those photos to be seen like that. I would be so angry if that was my loved ones body being showen like that. She had to have been someones daughter and maybe a sister, cousin, aunt, girl friend, wife, friend, or student. She was a human being with emotions and feelins Im sure. Just think how humilated she would be.

Now I want to read the book if there is one about her ( I will read threw this thread better later). Since I dont know about her story I have no idea if the person who done this was caught or not. But IMO there is no punishment strong enough for a sicko who would do that to someone. It makes a drive by fast shot in the head killing seem mild and tame compared to what that poor girl must have went threw. Lord have mercy. It is no wonder I watch my kids like a hawk and tell them to trust no one.

I realize none of us are perfect and we all have our hang ups but why would anyone allow themselves to take their hangs to that extreme by doing that to someone? Sick sick sick and evil.

[susie31023]

Welcome aboard BJ_Bobbie_Jo, yes she must have gone through a living nightmare. As for the pictures they are in almost if not all the books written about her. No one was ever caught for her murder..As for books there have been numerous ones written over the years. Some make sense some don't. I think JB put a list of them somewhere on here...Again welcome and if I can do anything to help you just ask~Susie

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by susie31023

Welcome aboard BJ_Bobbie_Jo, yes she must have gone through a living nightmare. As for the pictures they are in almost if not all the books written about her. No one was ever caught for her murder..As for books there have been numerous ones written over the years. Some make sense some don't. I think JB put a list of them somewhere on here...Again welcome and if I can do anything to help you just ask~Susie

Me too BJ. and Susie is correct Joseph Bell does have a list on this thread. IMO

[LetsBeConcerned]

Originally Posted by aldred

Does anyone know the exact address of the site where her body was found. I want to find a map of the place. Steve Hodel mentions a street named Degnan. The district is Crenshaw, I think. The area, Leimert Park...

I looked at some other pictures at the bethshort website. Just wondering if there was any wildlife predators roaming that part of L.A. that could have attempted to drag the torso away from its original placement.

That is possible…Probably not today, but back then it was much less developed than it is now. There are sightings of Mountain lions & bears (in the county) still to this today. Oh My~!!

Here is an article about a bear sighting yesterday. Even though San Dimas is some miles away, from Leimert Park they still do exist in the county as well as other wild life.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/news/ci_10494409

The Houses seen in Pic. #4 were built in late 1970’s. Thank goodness I didn’t know back then that bears were roaming the same streets that I was~!!

[aldred]

Ahh, what a cute little bear!!! I sure hope the guns was loaded with sedatives rather than lethal ammo!!!


Just a thought on the remains of Elizabeth Short; I wonder what they would find was it possible to examine them again today with the advanced knowledge, technology and forensic know how?