Timelines and info confusion

[Lydecker]

No doubt y'all go through this on this caper. Every book I read not only picks different culprit(s) but also different events or timelines. And of course the ol' "Daddy dun it!" business.
Today, my question is this: If a reporter from the Examiner flat out says detectives Baughm and Esquival interviewed Arthur "Dagwood" Lake about meeting Bauerdorf *and* Short at the Hollywood Canteen, why do some publications say Short didn't come to L.A. 'til 1946, *after* the Bauerdorf murder?
I doubt she would have lied about this, as the detectives said he was confused about their similar appearance. He also quickly mentioned the press would have to go through his attorney for more info. Now he was by marriage connected to Marion Davies, and Bauerdorf's father.
Was this a case of mistaken identity, or another cover-up.

[One2Snoop]

Bump

[Lydecker]

[quote=Joseph Bell;9114479]Hi. Welcome to the Dahlia thread/s. Beth originally left for Cal in Dec 42 to stay with her father but it didn't work out. She was back by Sept 44 when she met Lake at the Canteen. She shipped out again after Bauerdorf's murder on 8-12-44 and went to Florida. She reappears again in LA in July 46.

Hope this helps ###


Thanks, there's some sites around that go out of their way to discount so much, that it's hard to believe anything. I believe there was more than one degenerate in this. ### Bauerdorf was seen with a tall, limping guy who appeared to be a serviceman. This makes me think of this low-life J.A. Wilson who was 6'4" and limped. This was the mug who years later met writer Gilmore in the perfect noirish joint, "Harold's" at 555 S. Main. Wilson produced an old photo of him and Short in what he said was the pre Harold's dive. He also produced what looked like the exact pin the "Dahlia" wore in the picture. ###
# Gilmore was so impressed he went to old homicide dick, St. John with the info, and St. John wanted to talk to Wilson *after his current freeway murder investigation*. Wilson of course, said he wasn't the killer, but killer was still alive c.1980, and he knew where to find X. ###
# The problem of couse is, a mug like Wilson could hardly do skilled surgery like Short received. That's why somehow he must have known some pervert with such skill. In the *very* corrupt time of the Forties, there were quite a few twisted doctor and medical types in the area; question is, which one did the dirty deed.

[Lydecker]

Doc Bayley has been mentioned as a possibility, but Hodel points out Bayley's office had the same address as the man police sgt. Coker named as head of the "abortion ring", Dr. Audrain. Audrain is named as the doc in Wolfe's BLACK DAHLIA FILES, who sliced Short in two.
We know Bayley died from his brain problems shortly after, but Audrain commited suicide just when the '49 Grand Jury began investigating incompetance and corruption in the LAPD.

[Lydecker]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi. Bayley was in no physical condition to dismember Beth. Audrain is interesting yes but to buy into that you have to believe Wolfe's theory. It's inteesting yes and he could well be correct but he would need to have a lot more proof than he supplies before I would accept it as 'the' version.

Hodel, as you say, relies on two photos that look nothing like Beth as 'proof' of his whacko theory. Just because his father was a doctor doesn't make him Beth's murderer.

Now, am I right about "Lydecker"?

I look amazingly innocent this a.m. Stories about my demise in '44 have been wildly exagerrated.
I'm reading Wolfe, now; still haven't figured how a not so smart "nobody" could wind up in anything so earthshaking to be offed in a horrific way like that.
Seems Bugsy had a lot more problems than any ditzy dame could give him.

p.s. The Wambaugh\Gilmore quasi confession tape is heading my way; will post wed.\thurs.

[Lydecker]

You seem to be fascinated with dames that need killing. Not that ms. Hunt was a "dame"; that's what annoyed me about that ghoul, MacPherson. # Seems Gilmore came up with 80 pages of testimony etc. about Wilson (Smith etc.). Though Wilson was a lush by 1980, he just about flat out confessed the Bauerdorf killing in '44. He seems to have been at the "Dahlia" party, but I want to hear the tape.
Now, Wolfe's stuff about Siegal being there and wielding a club seems far-fetched. That would be like Gambino stealing at Kennedy Airport. He was in hot water about the Flamingo in Vegas, and had little time for cheap thuggery. Wolfe also mentions another guy who claimed the "Dahlia"\ Wilson photo came from (surprise!) The Florentine Gardens in Hollywood. Hmm, maybe that accounts for the story Wilson wouldn't let Gilmore hold the photo; the club name would be on the back.

[Lydecker]

Just finished the Wambaugh video; not as good as I hoped. This was made before the recent stuff from LAPD was released. One media guy mentioned the stuff about Short's vagina not being good for sex, etc. This was one of the curve balls LAPD through out in '47, and now throw out completely. Video gives a quick rundown of suspects (including guy with light colored coupe on dump site who quickly painted the car black!). # # #
Wambaugh dismisses doc Bayley as too far gone to do the deed. He doesn't mention abortionist Audrain who had office in same building. Makes no decision on J.A. Wilson. #

I was under the impression the tape would be Gilmore listening to parts of the tape he made of Wilson (Smith) figuratively putting his neck in a noose. But, it was a short recap instead. Though I do feel he definitely murdered Short's friend, Bauerdorf. # # #
He seems to have taken part of the Beth Short crime, possibly with "Maurice" Clement, and a surgeon (which Hodel wasn't.) Gilmore still imho, the closest writer to the truth.

p.s. The cop I mentioned previously is Stoker not "Coker"; he blew the whistle on plenty, and lost his job for it.

[SaraSidle]

Lydecker you sure have a lot more information than I do on this murder. I love reading your posts and I am learning a lot between you and Joseph Bell. Thank you both for your posts.

[Lydecker]

Sara, maybe *you* know to much now. The sudden immolation of J.A. Wilson after mentioning "Al Morrison, Nevada Big Shot", should be cause to reflect. ;-> #
Wolfe is big on "Morrison" as Al Green(berg) former Siegel\Lansky associate as possibly being at Dahlia death scene. He was boss of burglary gang with Wilson. Still, Short was small potatoes and find it hard to believe for bosses to be directly involved.

p.s. Wambaugh says he "finds it inconceivable" that Mark Hansen could derail a big crime investigation. Who's he kidding, the 40s (and twenties and thirties) LAPD force was extremely corrupt. And as Stoker pointed out, you also need the sheriff and D.A. in the bag for wide spread prostitution and abortion mills to operate.

p.p.s. Are there only three people here???

[SaraSidle]

yes it does slow down a little in the summer with kids home from school and vacations etc. Are you in the line of thinking that it was a medical type person who did the cutting? the pictures of the corpse are quite concise!! IMO

[Lydecker]

Slatzer was the guy in Wolfe's book that said the photo of Wilson (Smith) and Short came from FLORENTINE GARDENS. Gilmore quotes Wilson as claiming the photo was from the pre HAROLD'S 555 Club. ###
I have to check SEVERED again, I recall a comment by Wilson about someone who had the hots for Short, and seeing her giving oral sex to a sailor in a Main St. dive, and the guy was really enraged. Of course memory does play tricks. ###
Apparently according to Wolfe, Short was enciente, and seemed to be seeking an abortion. Possible names of docs: Audrain (leader of abortion ring and suicide '49); Faught (Short tried to contact); Brix (Short's address book); Bayley (not likely).

[SaraSidle]

WOW you are good. Thanks for the info.

[Lydecker]

I have no comment on hair in vagina; **** business is from either sadistic or extremely enraged sicko. Wilson's comment on long (ten inch blade) sounds counter to most experts theory of scalpel wielding medical person. #
Two persons may fit bill here, Wilson (who probably did kill Georgette who apparently met Short at Hollywood Canteen) and Maurice Clement who was seen several times helping Short move in and out. I suspect one of these bozos was the "betrayal" victim who Wilson alluded to Short's "french" work on a sailor (probably in the DUGOUT, a dive across street from 555 Club. #
The blonde in the photo was probably Ann Toth an actress who roomed with Short, briefly. Still, there's the posing of Short's corpse. Hodel suspects a Man Ray reference; others think it's a middle finger at Jack Dragna who lived a couple of blocks away. Now that sorta sounds like Bugsy; Dragna's bodyguard was supposedly the triggerman in Siegel's demise.

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Lydecker

I have no comment on hair in vagina; **** business is from either sadistic or extremely enraged sicko. Wilson's comment on long (ten inch blade) sounds counter to most experts theory of scalpel wielding medical person. #
Two persons may fit bill here, Wilson (who probably did kill Georgette who apparently met Short at Hollywood Canteen) and Maurice Clement who was seen several times helping Short move in and out. I suspect one of these bozos was the "betrayal" victim who Wilson alluded to Short's "french" work on a sailor (probably in the DUGOUT, a dive across street from 555 Club. #
The blonde in the photo was probably Ann Toth an actress who roomed with Short, briefly. Still, there's the posing of Short's corpse. Hodel suspects a Man Ray reference; others think it's a middle finger at Jack Dragna who lived a couple of blocks away. Now that sorta sounds like Bugsy; Dragna's bodyguard was supposedly the triggerman in Siegel's demise.

okay not to sound dumb but wasn't there grass in her vagina not hair. And the note is interesting because I think Zodiac wrote his and understood his own code and btk wrote his. It is like a kid saying "Look what I did and you cannot do anything about it" IMO

[Lydecker]

Originally Posted by SaraSidle

okay not to sound dumb but wasn't there grass in her vagina not hair. And the note is interesting because I think Zodiac wrote his and understood his own code and btk wrote his. It is like a kid saying "Look what I did and you cannot do anything about it" IMO

Since the Authorities threw out (in both sense of the words) so much quasi info on the investigation, it's hard to know what to believe. #
# My previous post, I was going to mention ZODIAC'S copy cat correspondence ala BTK and "Light hearted" Jack, and then completely forgot. (By the way, I feel the second Zodiac book by that cartoonist is a lot of B.S.) #
All things considered, even though Wilson's rambling discourse on the murder night seems to claim "Morrison" did it alone with a 10 inch knife, I believe there was at least one other person with him. Question is, who was this person; is there really a "Morrison"? Was there a medical person at scene? #
I sure would like to hear the entire (three?) tapes; Wolfe seems to think much of the ramblings refer to the Bauerdorf murder.

[Lydecker]

It seems that January 9 is etched in stone as the last day Beth Short was seen before her body was found. Well, a woman named who knew Beth saw and talked to her in Hollywood, outside the TABU Club, on the 12th. If my memory is accurate, the woman's name was something like Salisbury.
On January 13, a bartender at the notorius dive, the DUGOUT, saw Beth there with a tall blonde dame. Barkeep's name was C. Williams. Beth was seen on the 12th with two women in Hollywood.
January 14, police officer Myrl McBride saw a distraught woman she later identified as Beth Short. McBride took her to a bar on Main (Dugout?) to retrieve her purse. Police tried to influence her to change identity of the woman, she wouldn't.
Many years later she still maintained it was Short.

[Lydecker]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

OK Waldo. Names, names, names. Sightings were where? Please be specific.

Uh, read my last post, AGAIN.