Where should they end up?

[Drumbum]

Is prison the right place for a serial offenders? Is a mental hospital a better choice? How many serial offenders are truly insane? Can an intense scientific study of these individuals prevent future cases?

I won't make 20 questions this time.

I think some serial killers are insane,while others aren't. Ted Bundy and R.R. would have made great studies. R.R. was a first and Bundy is nearly the poster boy for serial murder. David Berkowitz could join them as a subject, he really is nutz.

Discuss?

[Karin]

I have often thought the same thing. Why imprison these serial offenders when some of them are definitely worth studying. So much could be learned about human behavior and the elements involved that influence the disturbing nature of a serial offenders. I would enjoy hearing about the discoveries.
Unfortunately, our judicial system seems to be more interested in having these criminals pay a price and that does not include studying the reasons for why they commit their crimes. I don't believe these serial offenders should have freedom, but they do need to be studied!

[Drumbum]

The episode of Most Evil tonight went into canabolism and delusional killers. Richard Trenton Chase suffered from paranoid schizophrenia that went untreated and he ended up murdering. Rod Farrel believes he's a vampire and murdered the parents of one of his cult members. Both candidates for study, but Chase is dead.

[Its just me]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

The episode of Most Evil tonight went into canabolism and delusional killers. Richard Trenton Chase suffered from paranoid schizophrenia that went untreated and he ended up murdering. Rod Farrel believes he's a vampire and murdered the parents of one of his cult members. Both candidates for study, but Chase is dead.

bumping post to get beyond a sick soul posting porn

[Drumbum]

Hopefully my thread isn't important enough for skin spam.

[grneyes]

It would have to be a mental hospital with the security of a prison and guards trained to deal with these types. Too big a chance of them escaping if it were a standard mental hospital. Also, wouldn't they have a greater chance of being released if they are committed? Wouldn't they just need to show that they are "cured"? Many of them are smart enough to pull off something like that. (Sorry if I'm not making sense, only on my 2nd cup of coffee for the day. *lol*)

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Drummy, what about Charlie Manson? He's been in prison forever and as far as I can make out he's as crazy as a loon. Has anything useful about would-be maniacal messiahs been learnt from Charlie's long stay? I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that if Charlie hadn't been caught and the authorities hadn't thrown away the key, he would have kept on truckin.

Manson's a good cadidate for study. The interviewing doc would need deep nerves and a big brain though.

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by grneyes

It would have to be a mental hospital with the security of a prison and guards trained to deal with these types. Too big a chance of them escaping if it were a standard mental hospital. Also, wouldn't they have a greater chance of being released if they are committed? Wouldn't they just need to show that they are "cured"? Many of them are smart enough to pull off something like that. (Sorry if I'm not making sense, only on my 2nd cup of coffee for the day. *lol*)

Yes, the guards would need specialized training since the inmates are not garden variety killers. Most are masters of manipulation and misleading others so they would try to convince doctors that they're cured. The doctor that falls for that better spend more time in study.

[SaraSidle]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

Manson's a good cadidate for study. The interviewing doc would need deep nerves and a big brain though.

LOL I needed that Drumbum. thank you so much and I totally agree. I have watched some of those interviews. IMO

[Drumbum]

A scary guy,a smart scary guy at that.

[Drumbum]

Sutcliffe was a piece of work too. Most killers are hard to reach unless the doctor gets in their sandbox with them. It doesn't seem like we've learned much from either,but not from lack of trying. Manson is not insane in my opinion,he's charismatic, manipulative, and posseses a dangerous intellect. Any novice who tries to get into Manson's mind is going to be stonewalled. Sutcliffe, on the other hand, seems to be a tad loopy, but that could be a sham. X made me do it is a worn out excuse. I'd think most killers don't know why they did what they did and can't find a good excuse coz there isn't one.

I'm sketchy on both cases, please forgive oversights.

[debbyuk2008]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_did_Bu...ill_his_family


Initially Ronnie de Feo claimed voices forced him to slaughter his family. (however in some interviews this is vehemently denied)

A psychiatrist once described him as psychotic. I wonder how much continual drug abuse contributed to this.

The Manson women didn't hear voices but one of them was particularly brutal...Susan Atkins. I think drugs must do something drastic to your personality.

Or.....maybe combination of both. Personality disorder..heavy drugs...

[debbyuk2008]

I suppose you need to distinguish whether someone is criminally insane or just evil beyond belief. If they are evil beyond belief I suppose prison is the only option.

In England we have Broadmoor for the criminally insane

I guess if someone is genuinely mentally ill they need to be treated. You can't help being ill.

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi Drummy. Sutcliffe active 75-81 in Leeds, Sheffield, Huddersfield, northern England. He murdered 13 women, mostly prostitutes, by stabbing and battering. He was sexually inadeqaute, although married. What appears to have started him was being ripped off by a prostitute who later belittled him to others. Once he started apparently he found he could get his sexual satisfaction through the murders.

He tale was that God told him to murder prostitutes although that doesn't quite explain why he murdured women who clearly weren't prostitutes. His defence went for the insane approach but he was overhead in prison telling his wife that if he acted loony he'd only get 10 years in a mental hospital.

He'd told police there was nothing mentally wrong with him and mentioned the voices in his head very late in the piece (probably when he realised what trouble he was in).

Thanks for the refresher, it's coming back now.

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by debbyuk2008

I suppose you need to distinguish whether someone is criminally insane or just evil beyond belief. If they are evil beyond belief I suppose prison is the only option.

In England we have Broadmoor for the criminally insane

I guess if someone is genuinely mentally ill they need to be treated. You can't help being ill.

Good point. I wish there was an easy solution, but there isn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell if a killer is insane or just evil.

[grneyes]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi all. DeFeo and Amityville. Had forgotten all about that. You could start a thread on that Debby! That's a seriously interesting story.

Nature vs nuture I guess it still comes down to. For people who live ordinary lives the concept of murdering someone is totally out of the park. Why is it that some people take that step over the edge and murder. DeFeo (and I've seen the crime photos they ain't pretty) murdered his own family. He hated his old man sure but why not just kill him? Why go for the little kids? But I suppose that if he didn't it wouldn't support his 'defence' would it?

The stuff that DeFeo came up with it..it was good enough to sell movies and it did.

I agree, that would be a good thread.

[debbyuk2008]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi all. DeFeo and Amityville. Had forgotten all about that. You could start a thread on that Debby! That's a seriously interesting story.

Nature vs nuture I guess it still comes down to. For people who live ordinary lives the concept of murdering someone is totally out of the park. Why is it that some people take that step over the edge and murder. DeFeo (and I've seen the crime photos they ain't pretty) murdered his own family. He hated his old man sure but why not just kill him? Why go for the little kids? But I suppose that if he didn't it wouldn't support his 'defence' would it?

The stuff that DeFeo came up with it..it was good enough to sell movies and it did.

Hi Joseph

I will try and start a Ronnie de Feo thread over the weekend.
Interestingly, Ronnie now maintains he didn't murders his younger siblings. He says he only murdered his parents and eventually Dawn.
A psychiatrist has pointed out that the guilt syndrome is coming in. He can handle murdering adults. However, he feels severe guilt over killing his younger siblings.

[debbyuk2008]

Originally Posted by grneyes

I agree, that would be a good thread.

Hi greneyes

Will deffo start a thread this weekend! I need to do a little research first.
Ronnie de Feo has completely changed his story.

[aldred]

Well, it's a lot easier to study people that are alive than not and when it comes to serial killers they aren't that many of them that it would be a problem to keep them permanently off the street.

The serial killers/mass murderers who are truly suffering from mental illness ( Richard Trenton Chase has already been mentioned), such as Herbert Mullin, John Linley Frazier, Colin Ferguson, Joseph Kallinger usually tries to keep their lawyers from entering a plea of insanity as they don't admit that they're insane because that is a vital part in a delusion.

These types of murderers are on the other side quite rare and those who fall victim to them are usually of their own family; the primary caregivers. As a group they're less violent than the general population.

[Karin]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

Good point. I wish there was an easy solution, but there isn't. Sometimes it's hard to tell if a killer is insane or just evil.

I know that you can have insanity without evil, but can you have evil without insanity?

[grneyes]

Originally Posted by Karin

I know that you can have insanity without evil, but can you have evil without insanity?

That's a tough one because society seems to deem anyone capable of horrendous evil as being insane. Many serial killers have above average intelligence but are they truly insane? Or, is it just that we can't comprehend why they do what they do, that makes them appear insane to us?

[Drumbum]

I think one can exist without the other.

[grneyes]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

I think one can exist without the other.

I do as well. I just forgot to add that to my previous post.

I think Karla Homolka is a good example of this too. She isn't insane but she is definitely an evil person.

[grneyes]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi all. A thought. If you can talk yourself into believing that what you do is right is that evil? Is it insanity? Is it diminished responsibility a lah the McNaughton Rules which is what Sutcliffe tried to rely on as his defence.

Imo, if you have to talk yourself into believing it's right, it probably isn't.

[Super Volcano]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

Yes, the guards would need specialized training since the inmates are not garden variety killers. Most are masters of manipulation and misleading others so they would try to convince doctors that they're cured. The doctor that falls for that better spend more time in study.

To me, someone who put themselves in prison for being a phsycotic brazen murderer, should NOT have the chance at ALL to be set free, EVER. I am a very religious person, and I believe that ALL of us came from our Heavenly Father when we were born. (to be totally blunt) It is mockery before the Lord to think that children are born evil. Evil is taught, or picked up from another source from the day a kid first absorbs information around him. Or her. And it depends on what was taught in the household growing up, and if any good religion was taught in the home, and if the kid was given a chance to choose for himself to accept it, or reject it. From a few cases I have been reading lately, they were rejects, or felt like rejects, and they found acceptance in the WRONG places. They are sometimes chemically screwed in the head, and it goes un-noticed, and un-treated, until it is too late. Anyways, by knowingly making bad choices in life, such as stealing, rape, etc. the kid is little by little, without knowing it, choosing his Master, which is Satan. Satan whispers in their ears, and tempts them into commiting bigger, and bigger crimes, until they commit the unthikable; murder. The more they do it, they begin building up insatiable appetites, and they will stop at nothing to feed that evil appetite. That is why I feel we need to keep these monsters off the streets. If given the chance to get out, either by some Psychiatrist thinking they are "cured," they WILL again seek out to once again feed that appetite that has been in a famine while in prison. A
A few of you might think I am off my rocker, but I believe that is you believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and live by His teachings, you can't go wrong.

[Super Volcano]

Originally Posted by Super Volcano

To me, someone who put themselves in prison for being a phsycotic brazen murderer, should NOT have the chance at ALL to be set free, EVER. I am a very religious person, and I believe that ALL of us came from our Heavenly Father when we were born. (to be totally blunt) It is mockery before the Lord to think that children are born evil. Evil is taught, or picked up from another source from the day a kid first absorbs information around him. Or her. And it depends on what was taught in the household growing up, and if any good religion was taught in the home, and if the kid was given a chance to choose for himself to accept it, or reject it. From a few cases I have been reading lately, they were rejects, or felt like rejects, and they found acceptance in the WRONG places. They are sometimes chemically screwed in the head, and it goes un-noticed, and un-treated, until it is too late. Anyways, by knowingly making bad choices in life, such as stealing, rape, etc. the kid is little by little, without knowing it, choosing his Master, which is Satan. Satan whispers in their ears, and tempts them into commiting bigger, and bigger crimes, until they commit the unthikable; murder. The more they do it, they begin building up insatiable appetites, and they will stop at nothing to feed that evil appetite. That is why I feel we need to keep these monsters off the streets. If given the chance to get out, either by some Psychiatrist thinking they are "cured," they WILL again seek out to once again feed that appetite that has been in a famine while in prison. A
A few of you might think I am off my rocker, but I believe that is you believe in the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and live by His teachings, you can't go wrong.

Forgive me, for those of you who know that I posted a similar message on a different thread. It is frustrating, because I don't have the option to "delete" a message. Does anyone know how to obtain that option here? It would be REALLY helpful.

[Super Volcano]

Originally Posted by Joseph Bell

Hi. When you post you should always preview your message. If you choose to post straight away there is an edit icon down the bottom RH side. If you choose that, you have the option to delete.

My strong suggestion - preview before you post. Hope this helps.

I am (obviously) pretty new to all of this, and how things work. I am learning by trial and error to figure it out. Thanks for the advice, it will help in the future.

[Karin]

Just curious....where should Casey Anthony end up?

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by Karin

Just curious....where should Casey Anthony end up?

The death chamber, with Susan Smith and Andrea Yates beside her.

[susie31023]

Just my opinion Casey Anthony should be done exactly as she did her precious little girl. Period. She deserves nothing less than the most horrific death as her poor little daughter got. I have no sympathy for her at all.

O/T I would like to thank you for the prayers you have said for my grandson. Thank you from the bottom of my heart~Suz

[Its just me]

There seems to be a strong case against Casey Anthony but For now I just hope she is found guilty. I think we all know there can be problems when it comes to a jury.

[Karin]

Originally Posted by Its just me

There seems to be a strong case against Casey Anthony but For now I just hope she is found guilty. I think we all know there can be problems when it comes to a jury.

Yeah, I was thinking that she may be as smart as OJ was in his trial..You know, deny it till the end and have a great defense team who raised enough reasonable doubt to get you aqcuitted....Scary, huh?

[grneyes]

Originally Posted by Drumbum

The death chamber, with Susan Smith and Andrea Yates beside her.

Even though it's against my religion, I think that is too good for her.

[Drumbum]

Originally Posted by Karin

Happy Birthday Drummy



What do you think?

I think it's where they belong. The right place, right thing to do.