JonBenet Ramsey - Open Discussion

[Evening2]

After discussing this with a few senior members here, I've decided to begin a General Discussion thread on the JonBenet Ramsey case. All POVs are encouraged and all topics will be allowed providing they are in accordance with the TOS of CL. This thread will be similar to the time when we only had one thread on the Ramsey case at CL. We seemed to do okay with it then and we should do as well now. Welcome back to any and all "old" CL posters and a warm welcome to any and all new members.

[FDInLaw]

[LindaA]

Evening2, thanks for starting this thread. I have certainly missed having a JBR thread here at CL.

Let's make a pact here to treat everyone with respect, no matter their POV.

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by LindaA

Evening2, thanks for starting this thread. I have certainly missed having a JBR thread here at CL.

Let's make a pact here to treat everyone with respect, no matter their POV.

I join you in that pact, LindaA. Having said that (and thank you for starting the pact), hopefully we'll need little, if any, moderating.

FDInLaw, thank you for the beautiful photo of JonBenet.

It's great to "see" both of you on this thread.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by LindaA

Evening2, thanks for starting this thread. I have certainly missed having a JBR thread here at CL.

Let's make a pact here to treat everyone with respect, no matter their POV.

Originally Posted by Evening2

I join you in that pact, LindaA. Having said that (and thank you for starting the pact), hopefully we'll need little, if any, moderating.

FDInLaw, thank you for the beautiful photo of JonBenet.

It's great to "see" both of you on this thread.

Joining the pact as well.

Anything news worthy in this case as of late?

[LindaA]

Unfortunately, FDinlaw, there is nothing new. THe boards that discuss this case just re-hash the same old stuff, argue the same old points.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by LindaA

Unfortunately, FDinlaw, there is nothing new. THe boards that discuss this case just re-hash the same old stuff, argue the same old points.

That's what I was afraid of.

With this new thread in place, let's hope that there will be a new break in the case to discuss!

[The R]

guess i should study up a bit on this case. I've never understood much about it at all other than how sad it is that this poor child is gone and her killer is unarrested.


ALLMO,
R

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

That's what I was afraid of.

With this new thread in place, let's hope that there will be a new break in the case to discuss!

I too am hoping for a break in the case. With new technology, maybe the DNA will be that break the case needs. Of course, I still worry that the DNA IS nothing more than artifact. If that's the case, where do we go from there in identifying the killer/s?

[Mikie]

I consider my anagram studies and stun marks studies "breaks in the case", although nobody else seems to agree. Let me know if anyone is interested in details.

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by Mikie

I consider my anagram studies and stun marks studies "breaks in the case", although nobody else seems to agree. Let me know if anyone is interested in details.

Ever since I began to research the occult, magic, etc., and the use of anagrams in those practices, your anagram studies have become much more important to my research. I think you should post your information and perhaps post information on sigils, etc., and anagrams used by "practitioners" so we can understand how all of this might just tie together. I also believe that Burroughs "taught" (worked with though not involved himself) some involved in this case. I DO have a problem with the other stun gun marks you see, but that's okay. Not everything has to fit together for a theory to make sense. BTW, welcome back to CL. Good to see you here.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by Mikie

I consider my anagram studies and stun marks studies "breaks in the case", although nobody else seems to agree. Let me know if anyone is interested in details.

Post away. . . we need something to discuss!

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by The R

guess i should study up a bit on this case. I've never understood much about it at all other than how sad it is that this poor child is gone and her killer is unarrested.


ALLMO,
R

Hi "R", glad to see you posting on this thread. For those who have asked "what's new", I probably should mention that excerpts from Fleet White's deposition in the civil case filed against the Ramseys by Chris Wolf have been posted by Jameson. That might make for some interesting discussion. There hasn't BEEN much actual discussion about what Fleet White had to say. Seems some would rather discuss Jameson and how she came by the deposition and whether or not it is "legal" for her to post from it. Hopefully, we can avoid THAT discussion at all costs.

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

Post away. . . we need something to discuss!

Where to start? As they say, start at the beginning. Anagrams were used in the Renaissance period by people like Galilelo and Leonardo Da Vinci, basically to hide things that would get them in trouble.
http://mathpages.com/home/kmath151.htm
"...Wanting to establish his priority of discovery, but not yet ready to reveal what he had found, he sent to Kepler (and others) the following jumble of letters, which he informed them was a coded description of his latest discovery:

smaismrmilmepoetaleumibunenugttauiras

It was not uncommon in those days for scientists to communicate (or
rather, to avoid communicating) their discoveries by means of coded
expressions. ..."

And in Brown's book, The DaVinci Code, anagrams are part of the story.

Okay, enough for the history lesson.

Take the capital letters in the Ramsey case ransom note:

MRLWWASYMWITIIAYTISPFBIILFYDJYDJUIJVSBTC

Now, all you have to do is rearrange them to get the special message which may be the actual purpose of the note in the first place!

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by Mikie

Where to start? As they say, start at the beginning. Anagrams were used in the Renaissance period by people like Galilelo and Leonardo Da Vinci, basically to hide things that would get them in trouble.
http://mathpages.com/home/kmath151.htm
"...Wanting to establish his priority of discovery, but not yet ready to reveal what he had found, he sent to Kepler (and others) the following jumble of letters, which he informed them was a coded description of his latest discovery:

smaismrmilmepoetaleumibunenugttauiras

It was not uncommon in those days for scientists to communicate (or
rather, to avoid communicating) their discoveries by means of coded
expressions. ..."

And in Brown's book, The DaVinci Code, anagrams are part of the story.

Okay, enough for the history lesson.

Take the capital letters in the Ramsey case ransom note:

MRLWWASYMWITIIAYTISPFBIILFYDJYDJUIJVSBTC

Now, all you have to do is rearrange them to get the special message which may be the actual purpose of the note in the first place!

Forgive me for being lazy. . . but what do you get when you rearrange them???

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

Forgive me for being lazy. . . but what do you get when you rearrange them???

That's okay, everyone is.

My studies are here:
http://www.geocities.com/astrospy/anagramsummary.html

The ransom note is the first one.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by Mikie

That's okay, everyone is.

My studies are here:
http://www.geocities.com/astrospy/anagramsummary.html

The ransom note is the first one.

How does your theory match the evidence in the case?

[The R]

Originally Posted by Evening2

Hi "R", glad to see you posting on this thread. For those who have asked "what's new", I probably should mention that excerpts from Fleet White's deposition in the civil case filed against the Ramseys by Chris Wolf have been posted by Jameson. That might make for some interesting discussion. There hasn't BEEN much actual discussion about what Fleet White had to say. Seems some would rather discuss Jameson and how she came by the deposition and whether or not it is "legal" for her to post from it. Hopefully, we can avoid THAT discussion at all costs.

Hey Thanks E2!

I'll try my best to keep up!

R

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

How does your theory match the evidence in the case?

Good question. The problem is that the evidence in the case does not seem to point to the person in the anagrams, except in vague and general ways. I can only explain that by saying that the authorities have intentionally directed the evidence away from him and toward the Ramseys. My suspect is essentially protected by the authorities, and any evidence such as DNA or pubic hair is not attributed to him publicly. So really there is nothing other than the crime itself, the nature of the act, which coincides with the nature of the killer. It's basically a hopeless situation where nothing is provable because the killer is protected, immune.

[The R]

Originally Posted by Mikie

That's okay, everyone is.

My studies are here:
http://www.geocities.com/astrospy/anagramsummary.html

The ransom note is the first one.

OK,

I'm totally lost now! How do you determine how to unscramble the letters?

Thanks,
R

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by The R

OK,

I'm totally lost now! How do you determine how to unscramble the letters?

Thanks,
R

There are a few basic things you need to follow, as I see it. You need to realize that there will be consonants not used. You need to attempt to use all the vowels, although it seems sometimes there are too many "I's". It helps to have some experience.

Try to rearrange this into a simple sentence and see what happens.

TIHDCMIMIAANCDODAIAIL

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by Mikie

There are a few basic things you need to follow, as I see it. You need to realize that there will be consonants not used. You need to attempt to use all the vowels, although it seems sometimes there are too many "I's". It helps to have some experience.

Try to rearrange this into a simple sentence and see what happens.

TIHDCMIMIAANCDODAIAIL

Mikie, maybe you can help me out here. I can't remember where I read it but it was recent. About certain groups of individuals who use anagrams similar to what you are saying and DO leave out certain letters like you do. Do you recall reading that? If you do, maybe you could post a link as a source so people will know this is not just your imagination. I think the anagrams were referred to as sigils but I may be mistaken.

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by Evening2

Mikie, maybe you can help me out here. I can't remember where I read it but it was recent. About certain groups of individuals who use anagrams similar to what you are saying and DO leave out certain letters like you do. Do you recall reading that? If you do, maybe you could post a link as a source so people will know this is not just your imagination. I think the anagrams were referred to as sigils but I may be mistaken.

Sorry, I don't recall that. I do recall the word sigils but don't know anything about them.

p.s. The only letters left out of the anagrams I studied were usually silent or unnecessary e's such as in murdered, i.e. murdrd.

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by Mikie

There are a few basic things you need to follow, as I see it. You need to realize that there will be consonants not used. You need to attempt to use all the vowels, although it seems sometimes there are too many "I's". It helps to have some experience.

Try to rearrange this into a simple sentence and see what happens.

I think maybe that was not "simple" enough.

What I usually do to start out is to rearrange the letters alphabetically, and separate the vowels from the consonants, like this:

CCDDDHLMMNT
AAAAIIIIIO

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by Mikie

I think maybe that was not "simple" enough.

What I usually do to start out is to rearrange the letters alphabetically, and separate the vowels from the consonants, like this:

CCDDDHLMMNT
AAAAIIIIIO

Then I just study it, trying to see if there are any obvious or common words that might be possible or impossible. In this case, I see that some possible words are: A, I, IT, CAN, DID, CANDID DID NOT, HAD, LAD, MAD, MAID, LAID, MAIN, etc. and I notice that common words like THE, ARE, WAS, IS, HAS, BE, etc. are not possible.

From that I would guess that it might be a message like A xxxxxx... DID IT. I rearrange the original letters (highlight and drag the letters, or just cut and paste them) like this:

CCDHLMMN
AAAIIIO
A DID IT

There's a lot of guesswork and just sitting down and trying things, just seeing what works and what does not. A XXXXXX DID NOT DO IT is impossible, for example, because there is only one O and only one T.

I then just look at it and try to see words that can be formed from the remaining letters. With some trial and effort, sometimes within minutes, sometimes within hours, I realize that HOMICIDAL (this is where experience helps a lot) is a possiblity, so I rearrange like this:

CMN
AAI
A HOMICIDAL DID IT

Then it becomes a simple word jumble with the unused letters (CMNAAI) to realize the sentence:

A HOMICIDAL MANIAC DID IT

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by Mikie

Sorry, I don't recall that. I do recall the word sigils but don't know anything about them.

p.s. The only letters left out of the anagrams I studied were usually silent or unnecessary e's such as in murdered, i.e. murdrd.

If I recall, what I read said any double consonants were omitted (I think). I can't remember if any vowels were used but I'm "thinking" they weren't.

[One2Snoop]

Just stopped in to say hello! It's been ages since I've followed the JBR case but I still remember the day it happened because we were in Colorado skiing not to far from Boulder when it happened.

BTW I'm pretty much a fence sitter and will waiver back and fourth as to whether an intruder did it or a Ramsey did it. I guess that makes me wishey washey LOL. It's a shame this case has never been solved after all these years.

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

Just stopped in to say hello! It's been ages since I've followed the JBR case but I still remember the day it happened because we were in Colorado skiing not to far from Boulder when it happened.

BTW I'm pretty much a fence sitter and will waiver back and fourth as to whether an intruder did it or a Ramsey did it. I guess that makes me wishey washey LOL. It's a shame this case has never been solved after all these years.

Hi O2S, glad you stopped by to say Hello. Yes, it's a real shame this case has never been solved. There's days I think it surely will be, and others I don't think it's even possible. What I DO know is that there are great posters here who will stop at nothing to continue to try to help solve this case. You never know when just the right clue will be uncovered. I hope you will find some time to join us here. And, O2S, thanks for all of your encouragement.

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by Evening2

If I recall, what I read said any double consonants were omitted (I think). I can't remember if any vowels were used but I'm "thinking" they weren't.

Maybe this is what you saw?
http://home.comcast.net/~max555/book/Sigils.html

They omit letters, then use the letters for graphic symbols.

This picture reminds me a lot of the string in the window well (maybe it was used for some sort of magic):

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by Mikie

Maybe this is what you saw?
http://home.comcast.net/~max555/book/Sigils.html

They omit letters, then use the letters for graphic symbols.

This picture reminds me a lot of the string in the window well (maybe it was used for some sort of magic):

Yes, Mikie, that is what I'm talking about. Thanks for finding it and posting it. Has anyone besides me noticed some things that are familiar with the ransom note? Like when the writer inserted the word "not"?

[LindaA]

If that picture ws taken the morning of the discovery of the crime, then I do not see how anyone can argue against the clear indication that someone was in that window well very recently.
that string had not been there ong (if, indeed, it is string. It does look awfully stiff). There are clear imprintgs of somethng on the cement, and the debris is not evenly distributed. Seems awfully strange to me. JMO.

[The R]

Originally Posted by Mikie

Then I just study it, trying to see if there are any obvious or common words that might be possible or impossible. In this case, I see that some possible words are: A, I, IT, CAN, DID, CANDID DID NOT, HAD, LAD, MAD, MAID, LAID, MAIN, etc. and I notice that common words like THE, ARE, WAS, IS, HAS, BE, etc. are not possible.

From that I would guess that it might be a message like A xxxxxx... DID IT. I rearrange the original letters (highlight and drag the letters, or just cut and paste them) like this:

CCDHLMMN
AAAIIIO
A DID IT

There's a lot of guesswork and just sitting down and trying things, just seeing what works and what does not. A XXXXXX DID NOT DO IT is impossible, for example, because there is only one O and only one T.

I then just look at it and try to see words that can be formed from the remaining letters. With some trial and effort, sometimes within minutes, sometimes within hours, I realize that HOMICIDAL (this is where experience helps a lot) is a possiblity, so I rearrange like this:

CMN
AAI
A HOMICIDAL DID IT

Then it becomes a simple word jumble with the unused letters (CMNAAI) to realize the sentence:

A HOMICIDAL MANIAC DID IT

Ok Thanks Mikie!

I didn't know if there was a scientific method to it, or if there were experts that deciphered the things. I thought it might be closely related to something like hand writing analyses?

Anyway, descrambling would be best left up to you, esp since I have no feel for it whatsoever.

ALLMO,
R

[The R]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

Just stopped in to say hello! It's been ages since I've followed the JBR case but I still remember the day it happened because we were in Colorado skiing not to far from Boulder when it happened.

BTW I'm pretty much a fence sitter and will waiver back and fourth as to whether an intruder did it or a Ramsey did it. I guess that makes me wishey washey LOL. It's a shame this case has never been solved after all these years.

Did Mrs Ramsey compete in pageants as a child? Was wondering what the motivation for JBR's involvement in pageants at an early age was.

Thanks,
R

[Mikie]

Originally Posted by The R

Ok Thanks Mikie!

I didn't know if there was a scientific method to it, or if there were experts that deciphered the things. I thought it might be closely related to something like hand writing analyses?

Anyway, descrambling would be best left up to you, esp since I have no feel for it whatsoever.

ALLMO,
R

You're welcome.

I forgot to mention that there are automatic online anagram solvers like this one: http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html but they don't seem to be of much use for bigger anagrams.

[LindaA]

Originally Posted by The R

Did Mrs Ramsey compete in pageants as a child? Was wondering what the motivation for JBR's involvement in pageants at an early age was.

Thanks,
R

I don't remember that PR competed in pageants as a child. I don't believe there were many, if any at all, when she was a child almost 50 years ago. (PR would be 51 or 52 had she lived.) PR said that the motivation was that since she had enjoyed them so much when she did compete, and after her bout with cancer she had doubts she would live to see JBR as a young adult (late teens) she felt it was something they could do together. She also noticed that JBR's personality seemed to be compatible with that type activity -- she loved to pretend to be performiing. Someone correct me if I'm remembering incorrectly.

[One2Snoop]

IIRC Patsy Ramsey was a former beauty queen - Miss Virginia or Georgia? Can't remember which state. I'll see if I can find some info on it...

[One2Snoop]

It was Virginia...

In 1977, Patsy Ramsey was crowned Miss West Virginia.

She was a sophomore at Parkersburg High School when she became first runner-up in the Miss Teen-Age West Virginia contest.

As a sophomore at West Virginia University, she decided to go for the state title and won it in 1977. Her sister, Pamela, later won the Miss West Virginia title as well.

In Atlantic City during the Miss America pageant, Patsy's dramatic reading won her a nonfinalist talent award and a $2,000 scholarship, which helped pay for her education at West Virginia University.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...10xxram5.shtml

[Evening2]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

IIRC Patsy Ramsey was a former beauty queen - Miss Virginia or Georgia? Can't remember which state. I'll see if I can find some info on it...

I think she was first runner-up in the Miss America Pageant in the late 70's and she represented West Virginia. Her sister, Pam Paugh, also represented West Virginia but I can't remember if she made it to the Miss America Pageant.

[The R]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

It was Virginia...

In 1977, Patsy Ramsey was crowned Miss West Virginia.

She was a sophomore at Parkersburg High School when she became first runner-up in the Miss Teen-Age West Virginia contest.

As a sophomore at West Virginia University, she decided to go for the state title and won it in 1977. Her sister, Pamela, later won the Miss West Virginia title as well.

In Atlantic City during the Miss America pageant, Patsy's dramatic reading won her a nonfinalist talent award and a $2,000 scholarship, which helped pay for her education at West Virginia University.

http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/...10xxram5.shtml

Originally Posted by Evening2

I think she was first runner-up in the Miss America Pageant in the late 70's and she represented West Virginia. Her sister, Pam Paugh, also represented West Virginia but I can't remember if she made it to the Miss America Pageant.

Thanks for the info!

R

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

Wasn't she a beautiful little girl? I feel bad that I just don't feel up to posting on a JBRamsey forum anymore. I got so fed up with Sycamore and the posters on there, that I gave it all up.