The Condom Wrapper. . .

[FDInLaw]

What significance does it hold? With the new dna information and investigation, this question is key. There are numerous theories. Let's explore them here. Please stay on topic, all other issues can be discussed on the main thread.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

What significance does it hold? With the new dna information and investigation, this question is key. There are numerous theories. Let's explore them here. Please stay on topic, all other issues can be discussed on the main thread.

In my opinion it probably means nothing. If the killer is the person that the DNA belongs to, I highly doubt that they would have left it behind. The only thing possible is that they tore it open with their mouth, and then forgot about DNA being left on it. But I'm happy that it got the investigation going again...just in case.

[FDInLaw]

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.

You make some very good points that make complete sense. Kevin finding it a day earlier, or even seeing when he went over that day (at the time of the murder) seem to make the most sense. There is also a possibility that he placed it there at the time of discovery while he was running around doing who knows what. In that case, he could have gotten the wrapper from anywhere.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

In my opinion it probably means nothing. If the killer is the person that the DNA belongs to, I highly doubt that they would have left it behind. The only thing possible is that they tore it open with their mouth, and then forgot about DNA being left on it. But I'm happy that it got the investigation going again...just in case.

I'm not sure if the wrapper has much to do with what happened or not. It is vital that it is checked out and I am grateful for the work that is being done. For me the owner of the dna is not automatically the "killer" and I find such sentiment asinine. There needs to be more that places that person at the scene, especially during the timeframe of the crime. I'm anxious to know if LE will be able to establish that.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

I'm not sure if the wrapper has much to do with what happened or not. It is vital that it is checked out and I am grateful for the work that is being done. For me the owner of the dna is not automatically the "killer" and I find such sentiment asinine. There needs to be more that places that person at the scene, especially during the timeframe of the crime. I'm anxious to know if LE will be able to establish that.

It definitely does not automatically make the dna owner the killer. I think people are just getting excited at the possibility that maybe someone is going to have to pay for this horrible crime. I must admit that I got excited at first too, but now I see that there is a bigger possibility that it means very little. There's always the what if though. What if the dna belongs to someone that was cleared mainly due to the fact that they couldn't be placed at her apartment? Believe me, I don't see this as a piece of evidence that could be used alone to convict someone. So, like you, I think that there needs to be more evidence to prove that someone else could have been there at the time of the murder.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

You make some very good points that make complete sense. Kevin finding it a day earlier, or even seeing when he went over that day (at the time of the murder) seem to make the most sense. There is also a possibility that he placed it there at the time of discovery while he was running around doing who knows what. In that case, he could have gotten the wrapper from anywhere.

In my "Kevin did it" theory, the condom wrapper was most likely planted in an effort to stage a sex crime. What's interesting now, with a dna match (of sorts), this theory may be strengthened or totally discounted. Say the dna is Trey York's. . . good golly, I seriously doubt Kevin would have been lucky enough to stumble on that condom wrapper and plant it. YIKES! However, if the dna is from someone that frequents an area that Kevin might have found a "random" wrapper then this theory will not be discounted IF there is no other evidence found to place the person in the apartment. It all hinges on the identity of the person! This is going to be interesting!

One thing I don't like about the "it was planted" theory is where it was found. . . the kitchen counter really bugs me. If I were planting it to look like a sex crime I would have left it near the body on the floor. That would have made more of a statement to LE. JMO. Really the whole condom wrapper thing is an enigma and I'm hoping that LE will be successful in finding answers.

[guppie]

The "Check everything! Check everything" quote by KJ pops into my mind. That says to me: "Find the wrapper! Find the wrapper!"

as i have said, i believe the wrapper was planted (probably that night at discovery) and maybe, just maybe, the dna will point to someone clearly not in that vicinity at that time. then it will be an indication that it had to have been planted. maybe this wrapper will only incriminate KJ more. wouldn't that be ironic?

[guppie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.

well, it took me a minute to find ya'll! ha
yes, i did say that i think jealous bf kevin took the condom wrapper at an earlier time. i will go back and find my exact post.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

It definitely does not automatically make the dna owner the killer. I think people are just getting excited at the possibility that maybe someone is going to have to pay for this horrible crime. I must admit that I got excited at first too, but now I see that there is a bigger possibility that it means very little. There's always the what if though. What if the dna belongs to someone that was cleared mainly due to the fact that they couldn't be placed at her apartment? Believe me, I don't see this as a piece of evidence that could be used alone to convict someone. So, like you, I think that there needs to be more evidence to prove that someone else could have been there at the time of the murder.

I hear ya! It's been an emotional rollercoaster!


I'm going to take a break. . . I hope someone will post scenarios that don't involve KJ. We need a fresh look.

[guppie]

ok found it...
my initial instinct was that the condom wrapper was probably found by KJ at Nona's on an earlier date, that he pocketed the wrapper as proof of her having sex outside their relationship, and then retrieved and planted it after the murder just to embellish the scene and take eyes away from him. IMO i don't believe he took it originally for any other reason than to prove she was having sex with someone else, meaning it was just convenient he had it in order to plant. that is really what i have been expecting as far as this wrapper goes. is that what you meant in your quote about "combination?"
i had an ex who fit this profile. he used to take things and hide them from me to use against me later or for leverage or whatever, so i know how that is.

[hawgustusgloop]

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by hawgustusgloop

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.

If I remember correctly the wrapper was a light blue. I went to the trojan site and it seems that there were two options with a light blue box: Trojan-ENZ Lubricated Condoms and Trojan-ENZ Spermicidal Lubricant Condoms. Both could be wrong, but those were the ones that I saw on their website.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

If I remember correctly the wrapper was a light blue. I went to the trojan site and it seems that there were two options with a light blue box: Trojan-ENZ Lubricated Condoms and Trojan-ENZ Spermicidal Lubricant Condoms. Both could be wrong, but those were the ones that I saw on their website.

Really? It looked like gold foil to me, or at least that is what I remember. Funny! Are there any photos of it on the 48 Hours site???

These are great questions!

[guppie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

Really? It looked like gold foil to me, or at least that is what I remember. Funny! Are there any photos of it on the 48 Hours site???

These are great questions!

i think black and gold. i can check on the DVR! i'll be back.

[TJEddie]

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.

[guppie]

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.

[guppie]

Originally Posted by TJEddie

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.

i never thought i would be analyzing a condom wrapper on a thread titled "the condom wrapper"

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by TJEddie

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.

Too funny!

[sweetgranny]

Originally Posted by hawgustusgloop

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by guppie

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.

Did you just watch the video??? I expected to be wrong this time around. Hawg has a good eye for details, I don't.

(YIKES! It was CSOKC that made that post. . . see, I'm beyond pathetic lol! )

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by sweetgranny

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.

No he can't. All hopes of justice will be dashed and civil suit will be all that's left.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by guppie

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

[guppie]

Originally Posted by sweetgranny

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.

nope. not at all on this case.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

Oh wait, it could also be the Magnum XL Lubricated Condoms. haha, sorry, that's funny.

[FDInLaw]

Yuk! I feel like I'm in a family planning class. . .

LOL!

So there are two different brands that it could be?

[guppie]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by guppie

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?

Are you planning on breaking in to homes and ransacking medicine cabinets and night stands??? LMBO!

You are hardcore!

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by guppie

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?

I was just going to the trojan website and then clicking on their products. It brought up a little store shelf with all the boxes on it, but I never could see the individual wrappers.

[lorettalockhorn]

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO

[guppie]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

I was just going to the trojan website and then clicking on their products. It brought up a little store shelf with all the boxes on it, but I never could see the individual wrappers.

ok, this is only gut and i am no condom expert, but i swear a little thing is kicking in my mind that gold indicates large condoms, like magnum ones. i must have seen one in my lifetime (although i cannot recall a guy to fit that description... cough cough). anyway, just throwing out an idea. there are other brands of condoms like Lifestyles and the ones you get in gas stations or whatever...since youre doing all this research, CSOKC!

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by lorettalockhorn

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO

I think they would have to be in the system. I would assume it's someone that volunteered their DNA since the defense made such a big deal about it. That could be wrong, and actually Kevin would have had to get very lucky to find a wrapper for one of those people. So again, I have no clue.

[CSOKC]

Originally Posted by guppie

ok, this is only gut and i am no condom expert, but i swear a little thing is kicking in my mind that gold indicates large condoms, like magnum ones. i must have seen one in my lifetime (although i cannot recall a guy to fit that description... cough cough). anyway, just throwing out an idea. there are other brands of condoms like Lifestyles and the ones you get in gas stations or whatever...since youre doing all this research, CSOKC!

I'm thinking it said Trojan though, right?

[FDInLaw]

We need more experts (MEN) on this thread. . .

(LOL!)

[guppie]

Originally Posted by lorettalockhorn

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO

my belief is that the wrapper was planted and until i am proven wrong, my thought is that the DNA probably belongs to someone who volunteered DNA in this case, not a random person in CODIS (that is what it's called, isn't it?)

ok ya'll, who has seen a gold (bronzy looking, shiny) condom wrapper before? or, um, at least has a friend who has seen one.

[guppie]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

I'm thinking it said Trojan though, right?

i do not see a brand, and it's on my TV screen. it looks like they faded the lettering! whatcha think? like a blur.

[lorettalockhorn]

Originally Posted by CSOKC

I think they would have to be in the system. I would assume it's someone that volunteered their DNA since the defense made such a big deal about it. That could be wrong, and actually Kevin would have had to get very lucky to find a wrapper for one of those people. So again, I have no clue.

Kevin's voyeurism could put him in the proximity of condom wrappers belonging to other guys, but I'm going to assume that none of them are in the system or have been cleared as suspects. He wouldn't have had time that day to scrounge for a wrapper, he would just have to stumble across one; perhaps when he was getting rid of his bloody clothers in some unknown dumpster.

But what dumb luck that that DNA would be in the system if the donor is completely innocent and didn't know Nona, let alone have a relationship with her. What if the donor is a registered offender, but was found to be in Oklahoma (for instance) that day.

Is it possible that Nona did know someone who is in the system and he had access to her apartment?

[FDInLaw]

Originally Posted by guppie

i do not see a brand, and it's on my TV screen. it looks like they faded the lettering! whatcha think? like a blur.

I don't remember seeing an actual brand name. . . sure wish we could get a photo of it to post here!

[guppie]

Originally Posted by FDInLaw

We need more experts (MEN) on this thread. . .

(LOL!)

i am seriously calling people(men). scare me!
i really think they faded the lettering on the wrapper. you can't make out a label. it reminds me of how they fade brands in certain shows. i would think they would probably do that here. i don't know the legalities of this type of thing. either they may have faded it not to give away to much info to the public or the manufacturer may have requested so. ideas?

[FDInLaw]

Loretta found a brand with an orange package. . . not quite a match though.