Calling All Whites

[Angie1960]

The Jena six & the debate over Jackson & Sharpton have lead me to send out a message to white people (as I am).

When I see injustice of any kind it hurts. When I see injustice done by racists to blacks it kills me. I agree that the Jena six should be punished for fighting/beating this white boy but there is NO WAY that he didn't say something to provoke the attack - what they were charged with is not justice. When I saw the crowds of people gathering in protest it saddened me to no end that 99 % of the people protesting were black.

Here is my point & MY CALL TO ACTION. To promote unity and help put an end to racism:

When there is an injustice and black people congregate to protest, we need to join them and let the world see that the majority of whites stand together with blacks against injustice of any kind. Just step out of your comfort zone and whenever there is an issue like this don't let our black sisters & brothers stand alone!

[cildawg1]

Somehow I thought your post would spark a lot of conversation, but it didn't. Nonetheless, I want you to know that I appreciate the thought.

Cil

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by cildawg1

Somehow I thought your post would spark a lot of conversation, but it didn't. Nonetheless, I want you to know that I appreciate the thought.

Cil

I'm surprised too - thanks. I guess it's too touchy a subject. Too sad.

[Luke Davis]

The name of the thread made me wonder if it would last, I really doubted it.

I'm white but this thread didn't attract me until I saw it was here for several days.

I also wonder if it is in the right place. Probably would get more attention in the Jena Forum.

Just a thought.

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by Luke Davis

The name of the thread made me wonder if it would last, I really doubted it.

I'm white but this thread didn't attract me until I saw it was here for several days.

I also wonder if it is in the right place. Probably would get more attention in the Jena Forum.

Just a thought.

Those were my thoughts too Luke Davis, glad you said it first!

Just a note. I don't think the color of anyone's skin here makes any difference whatsoever. Actually I was a bit shocked and offended by the title of this topic and if I'd seen the opposite I'd be equally offended.
No offense to you Angie1960, but to me it only reinforces racisim when I see something titled like this. I do think this thread would be better suited in the Jena 6 forum with a different title. JMO, IMO.

[Charon]

No, leave it where it is. I agree with Angie 1960 and it's about time we pull our heads from the sand. We are not talking about a brother in jail, we are talking about reality and it's time we call a spade a spade.

Crime affects us all, and who ever perpetrate a crime against a black can and may perpetrate the same or worse to a white the very next day.

Equality before the law, if nowhere else, is so important, and it may very well be the answer to it all. Where I served as a cop (white) we used to pull out all the stops (helicopters, cops from surrounding districts, trackers etc.) when a white was murdered in town. When a black got stabbed to death in his own home in the township, you'll find a response car, detective and crime scene tech. How silly and unfair.

Then as far as death penalty is concerned, they abolished it because it was viewed as a hatred thing. More blacks were executed than whites. The reason was pretty simple: There are 40 mil blacks to 4 mil whites. The likelyhood that a black would be convicted of murder is 10/1. Now we live in a lawless society where even our police commissioner is being investigated.

Getting back to Angie's post one must understand that ethnic groups will always stick together, no matter what. The diversity has been part of us for too long. It will take individual sincerity and action to cross the boundaries.

[Seashell]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

The Jena six & the debate over Jackson & Sharpton have lead me to send out a message to white people (as I am).

When I see injustice of any kind it hurts. When I see injustice done by racists to blacks it kills me. I agree that the Jena six should be punished for fighting/beating this white boy but there is NO WAY that he didn't say something to provoke the attack - what they were charged with is not justice. When I saw the crowds of people gathering in protest it saddened me to no end that 99 % of the people protesting were black.

Here is my point & MY CALL TO ACTION. To promote unity and help put an end to racism:

When there is an injustice and black people congregate to protest, we need to join them and let the world see that the majority of whites stand together with blacks against injustice of any kind. Just step out of your comfort zone and whenever there is an issue like this don't let our black sisters & brothers stand alone!

excellent and good advice, if only everyone of all creeds and races stood side by side the world would be more tolerant and fair.

[Seashell]

Originally Posted by Charon

Equality before the law, if nowhere else, is so important, and it may very well be the answer to it all.

Getting back to Angie's post one must understand that ethnic groups will always stick together, no matter what. The diversity has been part of us for too long. It will take individual sincerity and action to cross the boundaries.

Agree.
In joining forces with different COMMUNITIES we gain more strength to stop racism, Angie got it right as well.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

The Jena six & the debate over Jackson & Sharpton have lead me to send out a message to white people (as I am).

When I see injustice of any kind it hurts. When I see injustice done by racists to blacks it kills me. I agree that the Jena six should be punished for fighting/beating this white boy but there is NO WAY that he didn't say something to provoke the attack - what they were charged with is not justice. When I saw the crowds of people gathering in protest it saddened me to no end that 99 % of the people protesting were black.

Here is my point & MY CALL TO ACTION. To promote unity and help put an end to racism:

When there is an injustice and black people congregate to protest, we need to join them and let the world see that the majority of whites stand together with blacks against injustice of any kind. Just step out of your comfort zone and whenever there is an issue like this don't let our black sisters & brothers stand alone!

After catching up on some of the boards I decided to stick my head in to see what this was about and glad it wasn't a thread to promote racial division. The title of your thread IMO sounds offensive although now I realize it wasn't meant to be.

Being an avid supporter of civil rights and having two multi-cultural children our family is pretty much color-blind anyway and speaking out for injustice is routine.

I wish there were more discussion and dialogue about racial issues but alas it seems to ultimately end up with race baiters who create controversy on both sides. Most discussions re: race I find needs to be in a controlled environment for those very reasons. They tend to become heated and emotional more so than any other discussions I have ever been involved in.

I agree with One2 and Luke that had you posted this in the Jena6 forum it probably would attract more attention and also changing the title.

Perhaps you can send FW a PM and ask her to move it and possibly rename it to something that will not be perceived as "baiting". Just a thought.

[wind149]

When I started the thread about JJ and AS I didn't want to open a can of worms and have everyone divided and I am glad for everyone's point of view here. The Jena Six incident shows that this country is certain areas anyway, are racially divided still in the 21st century. Will we ever reach peace and be as one American to another? As long as you have people that like fueling the fires of racism no. Last year and this pissed me off to no end the KKK had a Grand Poobah living just a town away from me. I could have gone my whole life without knowing that fact and of course they tried to have a rally here and I am pleased to announce turn-out was at an all time low! MI does not want them here and by not showing up to their hate fest, they got the message loud and clear! And left the same day! As for the Jena Six thing, the boys did wrong and should be punished and Bell went back in so it shows to me he has not learned from this and probably has been listening to the wrong people. I got people mad at me on the other board for pointing out that there are still some real red-neck yahoos in the deep south that don't know what era they are living in. The hate crime against that poor woman in WV is prime example of pure D white trash thinking it way too cool to abuse a black woman and hope them SOB's get a lengthy sentence and there be some big brothers and sisters waiting for them when they get there. That was an evil act, so senseless, and done to her for the color of her skin. They would not have done that to a white woman. The poor man that was dragged to death by them scumbag's in TX, at least they got the death penalty and rightly so. And I agree if you have a city that is mainly made up of black folks such as Newark NJ, it would stand to reason that there would be more black on black crime. Young black men are dying in that city everyday over gangs and drugs. Here in Saginaw, they are dying every day as well. Flint has a lot more crime I think than Detroit! Driveby's, gang violence, drug wars, it is a mess there and with the state's budget problems, they want to lay off cops instead of hiring more! As I said I am glad this thread was started as well, some subjects people do not want to talk about, some try to forget that these issues exist, and some people get pretty heated, but you can't hide from the ugly truth.

[Angie1960]

Thank you for your responses - I didn't mean to offend anyone but I admit the title is a bit baiting but is refelects the post. It was meant as a call to action. And I considered putting it inthe Jena six thread - but it has more to do with just the Jena six - it is a call to action in all these instances, injustice and black protest shouldn't be a black issue alone. It should be a human issue - we are hurting ourselves when we allow people of any color who are persecuted or oppressed to carry the burden alone.

There will never be unity until we cross the color barriers. This is not an easy thing to do. We are afraid to be the minority, we might get called out by angry individuals, or we might just be appreciated for taking a stand - who knows? It's called stepping out in faith, through fear and making the right choices.

I will PM FW & see if this should be moved. Thanks again!

[sallynuts]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

The Jena six & the debate over Jackson & Sharpton have lead me to send out a message to white people (as I am).

When I see injustice of any kind it hurts. When I see injustice done by racists to blacks it kills me. I agree that the Jena six should be punished for fighting/beating this white boy but there is NO WAY that he didn't say something to provoke the attack - what they were charged with is not justice. When I saw the crowds of people gathering in protest it saddened me to no end that 99 % of the people protesting were black.

Here is my point & MY CALL TO ACTION. To promote unity and help put an end to racism:

When there is an injustice and black people congregate to protest, we need to join them and let the world see that the majority of whites stand together with blacks against injustice of any kind. Just step out of your comfort zone and whenever there is an issue like this don't let our black sisters & brothers stand alone!

It makes/ should make / absolutely no difference to the colour of ones skin... a crime is a crime... and u should be punished according to the law... i have never read that the colour of a person's skin decides what punishment under law they should receive... well not for probably 100yrs.. or so... and i think that is being conservative...

However... i applaud u for trying to make a difference... it might just take another 100 yrs...

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by sallynuts

It makes/ should make / absolutely no difference to the colour of ones skin... a crime is a crime... and u should be punished according to the law... i have never read that the colour of a person's skin decides what punishment under law they should receive... well not for probably 100yrs.. or so... and i think that is being conservative...

However... i applaud u for trying to make a difference... it might just take another 100 yrs...

You're right & when I say I feel an extra hurt when crimes are race related (and for me in particular, between blacks & whites). It's not really the color of one's skin that at the heart of the matter here, it's the history and the relationship between two peoples who are living with the consequence of our history. It's very sad. And there is no balance in the justice system - there is oppression, like it or not and that IS because of the color of one's skin. There is also so much fear on the part of "the old white male establishment." Now don't get me started on the American Indians and what our ancestors did to THEM.

[raven]

There are four drivers that drive people to attack their fellow human - race, sex, religion and greed. Greed just comes do to simple economics and sex is mainly about domination and control. Religion and Race is all about segregation and division which in turn is about control. As long as there are sheep that will follow an ideology or doctorine blindly and without question we'll always have these problems. Some people just don't like or don't trust those from different backgrounds whether they are racial or religious or sometimes even just from a different neighbourhood.

[Angie1960]

Speaking of what drives us - or better, our evolutionary MISSION; I believe that #1 we need to transform our animal nature into a spiritual nature. Humanities propensity for seperatism comes from our animal - tribal nature.

The irony of this, and the actual purpose of our spiritual evolution, IMHO is that if one wants to deterime the true master race, all they have to do is look at the outcome of the mixing of races. In my experience, and I believe there have been studies, those of us who are of mixed blood tend to do better in almost all aspects of life. They are often smarter and healthier. And though there is often a stigma (at this time in history) it builds character and leads to a more balanced outlook on life. I admit, this in itself could be construed as a stereotype, and we are still evolving, therefore the verdict is still out. But personally I would be happy to see a world of complete diversity, black, white, yellow red, and all the shades of color in between.

[Seashell]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

Speaking of what drives us - or better, our evolutionary MISSION; I believe that #1 we need to transform our animal nature into a spiritual nature. Humanities propensity for seperatism comes from our animal - tribal nature.

The irony of this, and the actual purpose of our spiritual evolution, IMHO is that if one wants to deterime the true master race, all they have to do is look at the outcome of the mixing of races. In my experience, and I believe there have been studies, those of us who are of mixed blood tend to do better in almost all aspects of life. They are often smarter and healthier. And though there is often a stigma (at this time in history) it builds character and leads to a more balanced outlook on life. I admit, this in itself could be construed as a stereotype, and we are still evolving, therefore the verdict is still out. But personally I would be happy to see a world of complete diversity, black, white, yellow red, and all the shades of color in between.

kudos sister!
you hit the nail on the head

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

Speaking of what drives us - or better, our evolutionary MISSION; I believe that #1 we need to transform our animal nature into a spiritual nature. Humanities propensity for seperatism comes from our animal - tribal nature.

The irony of this, and the actual purpose of our spiritual evolution, IMHO is that if one wants to deterime the true master race, all they have to do is look at the outcome of the mixing of races. In my experience, and I believe there have been studies, those of us who are of mixed blood tend to do better in almost all aspects of life. They are often smarter and healthier. And though there is often a stigma (at this time in history) it builds character and leads to a more balanced outlook on life. I admit, this in itself could be construed as a stereotype, and we are still evolving, therefore the verdict is still out. But personally I would be happy to see a world of complete diversity, black, white, yellow red, and all the shades of color in between.

I don't know about the healthier and smarter, but being multi-cultural myself, I believe most multi-racial / multi-cultural (take your pick) are more tolerant of differences in people and definitely can be the answer to end racism.

I remember watching one of Tiger Wood's earlier interviews on Oprah -- and he made a statement that I will never forget. We all saw the bond between him and his black father more so than with his Korean mother but he told Oprah in order for him to say he was black would be denouncing his mother's side and he rejected "orthodox" racial classifications and refused to let race define him.

My children actually think the same way Woods does and they both have such a diverse set of friends. They also refuse to let race define them and for that I am so very proud of them. When my daughter was in the 2nd grade (about 7) the teacher gave her an application to bring home for me to fill out but she filled it out for a gifted program in school. There was a section where she had to check her race. She drew a line through it and wrote "human". She was the talk of her grammar school especially amongst the teachers and her teacher called me to tell me about it. They joke with us so openly too and can have you in stitches and when they do certain things they'll say oops that's the black in me, or the native american in me, or the french in me, etc. My son loves potatoes and refers to them as the Irish in him. They are so multi-racial/multi-cultural we joke and call ourselves the "Little League of Nations". I wouldn't change it for the world. I have no idea who they will marry either and we may diversify even further. LOL

[Athena]

Oops look I got it wrong. Woods' mother is Thai not Korean. Sorry. But anyway I found this statement he made at one of his golf games:

MEDIA STATEMENT:

The purpose of this statement is to explain my heritage for the benefit of members of the media who may be seeing me play for the first time. It is the final and only comment I will make regarding the issue.

My parents have taught me to always be proud of my ethnic background. Please rest assured that is, and always will be, the case - past, present, and future.

The media has portrayed me as African-American; sometimes, Asian. In fact, I am both.

Yes, I am the product of two great cultures, one African-American and the other Asian.

On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai. Truthfully, I feel very fortunate, and EQUALLY PROUD, to be both African-American and Asian!

The critical and fundamental point is that ethnic background and/or composition should NOT make a difference. It does NOT make a difference to me. The bottom line is that I am an American...and proud of it!

That is who I am and what I am. Now, with your cooperation, I hope I can just be a golfer and a human being.

Signed,

TIGER WOODS

[raven]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

Speaking of what drives us - or better, our evolutionary MISSION; I believe that #1 we need to transform our animal nature into a spiritual nature. Humanities propensity for seperatism comes from our animal - tribal nature.

The irony of this, and the actual purpose of our spiritual evolution, IMHO is that if one wants to deterime the true master race, all they have to do is look at the outcome of the mixing of races. In my experience, and I believe there have been studies, those of us who are of mixed blood tend to do better in almost all aspects of life. They are often smarter and healthier. And though there is often a stigma (at this time in history) it builds character and leads to a more balanced outlook on life. I admit, this in itself could be construed as a stereotype, and we are still evolving, therefore the verdict is still out. But personally I would be happy to see a world of complete diversity, black, white, yellow red, and all the shades of color in between.

I'd like to see these studies that suggest those with mixed blood are smarter and healthier than others. That sounds like reverse racism. For starters most (if not all) of us are of mixed blood anyway. We're all decended from dozens of different races. We in England have Celt, Saxon, Roman and Norman blood in us (as well as others). Just because someone is white or black does not mean that they are some sort of pure blood.

[Silveradotd]

I'm an American, even though I have german blood in my vains. that being said, I'm still an american because I was born here. I'm not german American, I'm an AMERICAN,......I hope you all see where I'm going with this ( I HOPE ) LOL.... Some of my closist Friends are Black, the funny thing is they don't call them selfs African American, I've Ask why one time, I was told because they were born here in America, One Friend a very close Friend said that he was a Black American, Not African American, he said he wasn't born in africa. I wasn't going to argue with him, He knows what He is and I know what I am, We are Two Americans One Black One White. I wish the rest of the world could be the same as Jon and I, But as long as there are people that use racism as a tool for getting out of trouble and everything else, well Like I said I hope that you'd see where I was Going. Now someone will call me a racist cause I said that. OH by the way, I think Tiger Woods Is the Greatest, I knew his father, I thought the world of him also.....

SilveradoTD

[raven]

Not racist at all - totally agree with your sentiment and applaud it.

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by raven

I'd like to see these studies that suggest those with mixed blood are smarter and healthier than others. That sounds like reverse racism. For starters most (if not all) of us are of mixed blood anyway. We're all decended from dozens of different races. We in England have Celt, Saxon, Roman and Norman blood in us (as well as others). Just because someone is white or black does not mean that they are some sort of pure blood.

I never said anything about PURE BLOOD when I referred to mixed blood the deeper meaning is that certain races seem to have propensities for certain diseases like blacks may get sickle cell and whites, mutlple sclerosis. I wonder, and this part is theory, that maybe, sometimes, mixed blood might cancel out these propensities. That is a study I would love to see. I will look for the information you asked for. My personal experience working with children for many years, is that the multi racial children excelled. Just my experience.

Shout out to Tiger Woods!!!

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by raven

I'd like to see these studies that suggest those with mixed blood are smarter and healthier than others. That sounds like reverse racism. For starters most (if not all) of us are of mixed blood anyway. We're all decended from dozens of different races. We in England have Celt, Saxon, Roman and Norman blood in us (as well as others). Just because someone is white or black does not mean that they are some sort of pure blood.

Hard search to do for free though there is some info out there..

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/rac...ics-t7036.html

Look for the blurb about the 1986 analysis by C.T. Nagoshi and R.C. Johnson

Also I am German, Fench and Indian (the German & French are still in the same race I believe, while the Indian would be a different race). I think that Celt, Saxon, Roman (don't know about Norman) would all be considered the same basic race aren't they?

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

I never said anything about PURE BLOOD when I referred to mixed blood the deeper meaning is that certain races seem to have propensities for certain diseases like blacks may get sickle cell and whites, mutlple sclerosis. I wonder, and this part is theory, that maybe, sometimes, mixed blood might cancel out these propensities. That is a study I would love to see. I will look for the information you asked for. My personal experience working with children for many years, is that the multi racial children excelled. Just my experience.

Shout out to Tiger Woods!!!

Hi Angie,

Now I get what you mean. Notice when I responded to you I said don't know about smarter and healthier .......... and now it makes sense.

[wind149]

My god-daughter Shelli is bi-racial and luckily I can only recall one time where she was sorta confused as to what race she is. She was about four and come screaming into the house all upset. I was babysitting that day and I was like what is wrong? Thinking I will find her with wounds,, I looked her and I said what is it? "some boy called me a dirty brown girl" How do you answer that one? I said to her have you noticed that me and Mommy and Aunt Jeanette and Grandma are a different color than you? She looked at me and said no, and then I explained to her that she got her color from her Dad. Her mother never told her father about Shelli and we knew he was a good man and she had this pride thing going on and right after that, she called him and the man cried and the next day he came into this beautiful girl's life and until he died he was a great father, left her comfortable, she got a great education and is a teacher! She is married to a white man and they have two great kids!! This little girl, when she born I was right there. She was born on New Year's Day and at first I saw racism right off. Usually the town we lived in would go gaga over the New Year's kids and Shells was the only one born. She got a small write-up in the paper and that was it. Her mother did not want to make a fuss but my tude was this child is entitled to everything a white baby would have gotten. And I went to the chamber of commerce and said as much. The woman tried to play dumb with me at first and I simply said to her well I guess I can call the local TV station and see what they have to say. Gifts ended up rolling in for weeks! She was so darn cute no one could resist her! She was also smart as a whip. One time a kid gave her a hard time and she looked right at him and said I am an American citizen and I am not a zebra ,a zebra is a an animal that lives in Africa and the kid did not know what to say back. So I do know how cruel people can be, and the poster is right. The only true Americans that were born here were Native Americans. My first husband is Blackfoot and my adoptive mother hated him. She would not come to our wedding. I shut her up good when I reminded her she was only a second generation American as her parents both were born in Germany, his family has been here for centuries!! My true heritage now that I know my real family, is Scottish and Irish and I look very Irish! So I guess we are all mutts in a sense but what we are if we live in this country are Americans no matter what race we are. On September 11, 2001, evil people wanted to take that away from us and are still trying.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by wind149

<snip>..... but what we are if we live in this country are Americans no matter what race we are. On September 11, 2001, evil people wanted to take that away from us and are still trying.

[raven]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

Hard search to do for free though there is some info out there..

http://www.biodiversityforum.com/rac...ics-t7036.html

Look for the blurb about the 1986 analysis by C.T. Nagoshi and R.C. Johnson

Also I am German, Fench and Indian (the German & French are still in the same race I believe, while the Indian would be a different race). I think that Celt, Saxon, Roman (don't know about Norman) would all be considered the same basic race aren't they?

Interesting reading - thanks for posting. I get more what you mean now. Celts are the original settlers of the British Isles, then over the centuries we've been invaded a few times by Saxons (Scandanavians), Romans (initially Italian, but at the height of the empire included most of Europe, northern Africa and parts of the middle east) and Normans (French), so us Brits are well and truly mutts!

[SimplySue]

I've been eying this thread for days now but didn't investigate it because of the title. Now I'm really glad I decided to pop in today. It's wonderful to see the common goal to do something to move our racial problems in the right direction.

Unfortunately, I also think it is going to be a long time before there is a significant change. Change that will make a difference in the social balance of our country. Actually of the world. America is not the only country with racial problems.

One of the problems IMO is that everyone is so hell bent on being politically correct. Especially people in power.

I believe we all have a responsibility to teach our children and grand children to respect other races and cultures. One of the great things is that bi-racial couples and marriages are alot more common than when I was young. People are actually meeting people of other racial backgrounds and learning that, "Hey we really ARE all human beings with the same wants and needs even if our skin color or religious beliefs are different."

It's not going to be an easy task to unite America, and it's not going to happen overnight. But nothing worthwhile ever is.

United we stand, and divided we are going to fall eventually if we don't wake up.

Peace out.

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by SimplySue

I've been eying this thread for days now but didn't investigate it because of the title. Now I'm really glad I decided to pop in today. It's wonderful to see the common goal to do something to move our racial problems in the right direction.

Unfortunately, I also think it is going to be a long time before there is a significant change. Change that will make a difference in the social balance of our country. Actually of the world. America is not the only country with racial problems.

One of the problems IMO is that everyone is so hell bent on being politically correct. Especially people in power.

I believe we all have a responsibility to teach our children and grand children to respect other races and cultures. One of the great things is that bi-racial couples and marriages are alot more common than when I was young. People are actually meeting people of other racial backgrounds and learning that, "Hey we really ARE all human beings with the same wants and needs even if our skin color or religious beliefs are different."

It's not going to be an easy task to unite America, and it's not going to happen overnight. But nothing worthwhile ever is.

United we stand, and divided we are going to fall eventually if we don't wake up.

Peace out.

Thanks for popping in - I think my underlying motive to title it the way I did was that maybe some racists would click on the thread and either learn something or just burn a little.

[Crystal_Ann]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

The Jena six & the debate over Jackson & Sharpton have lead me to send out a message to white people (as I am).

When I see injustice of any kind it hurts. When I see injustice done by racists to blacks it kills me. I agree that the Jena six should be punished for fighting/beating this white boy but there is NO WAY that he didn't say something to provoke the attack - what they were charged with is not justice. When I saw the crowds of people gathering in protest it saddened me to no end that 99 % of the people protesting were black.

Here is my point & MY CALL TO ACTION. To promote unity and help put an end to racism:

When there is an injustice and black people congregate to protest, we need to join them and let the world see that the majority of whites stand together with blacks against injustice of any kind. Just step out of your comfort zone and whenever there is an issue like this don't let our black sisters & brothers stand alone!

He might not have provoked the attack. Those boys could just be psychos or racist. The stories about that case makes it sound like the white citizens are soley to blame for the racial tension and they are the only ones who are racist but I think that there are black citizens in that town who are no better. The Jena's six defenders have complained that whites get special treatment but they seem to want that same treatment instead of equal treatment judging from how they are defending those boys. If it had been a group of white boys who had attacked a black boy, they along with Sharpton and Jackson would be screaming for justice.

I know it's not going to happen but I hope those boys get punished to the fullest extent of the law and if they don't should be sued by their victim's family. I think they are as vile as white people who committ hate crimes against blacks.

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by Crystal_Ann

He might not have provoked the attack. Those boys could just be psychos or racist. The stories about that case makes it sound like the white citizens are soley to blame for the racial tension and they are the only ones who are racist but I think that there are black citizens in that town who are no better. The Jena's six defenders have complained that whites get special treatment but they seem to want that same treatment instead of equal treatment judging from how they are defending those boys. If it had been a group of white boys who had attacked a black boy, they along with Sharpton and Jackson would be screaming for justice.

I know it's not going to happen but I hope those boys get punished to the fullest extent of the law and if they don't should be sued by their victim's family. I think they are as vile as white people who committ hate crimes against blacks.

Yes they would be screaming for the justice that has yet to be fair & balanced even now in 2007. Ignorant whites have been picking on blacks for hundreds of years. A dog can only be kicked so long before it bites. Works the same for people. Nooses being hung on what was viewed as a white only tree is so vile, let alone the day to day experiences the blacks in Jena had to endure. This was in response to the treatment they had received, it has nothing to do with them being Psychos.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished - but its a case of six boys ganging up on one and hurting him and I don't believe for a second he was just an innocent bystander. Believe me if they wanted to kill him - he'd be dead. It's not attempted murder, it's assault & battery, pure & simple.

We have progressed far beyond that in this thread - if you want to rant about the Jena Six - there is a thread for that.

[Crystal_Ann]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

Yes they would be screaming for the justice that has yet to be fair & balanced even now in 2007. Ignorant whites have been picking on blacks for hundreds of years. A dog can only be kicked so long before it bites. Works the same for people. Nooses being hung on what was viewed as a white only tree is so vile, let alone the day to day experiences the blacks in Jena had to endure. This was in response to the treatment they had received, it has nothing to do with them being Psychos.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished - but its a case of six boys ganging up on one and hurting him and I don't believe for a second he was just an innocent bystander. Believe me if they wanted to kill him - he'd be dead. It's not attempted murder, it's assault & battery, pure & simple.

We have progressed far beyond that in this thread - if you want to rant about the Jena Six - there is a thread for that.

It's not necessary to be rude and immature for that matter with the rolling eyes icon. If you only wanted to hear the opinions that are the same as yours, you could have said that or better yet included it in your post when you posted this topic. If you had I wouldn't have posted in this thread. This is a message board, it's going to have different opinions.

If a group of black people beat the crap of someone you loved, would you just write it off as the result of whites picking on blacks for hundreds of years and in response to the treatment they recieved. The hanging of the nooses was disgusting (and the people responsible should have been punished and required to get therapy since only a disturbed mind would do that) but so is attacking someone. What happened hundreds of years ago can't be changed, it can only be learned from. Blacks and whites should get the same rights and treatment which includes justice.

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by Crystal_Ann

Blacks and whites should get the same rights and treatment which includes justice.

That's my point.

Thank you!

[Crystal_Ann]

Originally Posted by Angie1960

That's my point.

Thank you!

Then I misundersood you and I apologize because I thought you where implying by some of your comments that when a black person attacks a white person they are responding to the treatment blacks have recieved by the whites who are racist and that their victim must have provoked them which isn't equal treatment.

I should have worded my comment that I hope the Jena 6 get punished to the fullest extent of the law that they get the same punishment that a white person would get (which these days I think is the fullest extent of the law when it comes to hate crimes) for committing a hate crime and in the meantime the sick person or people who are responsable for the nooses should be searched for (if they haven't be caught) then punished severely for their actions.

[Angie1960]

No - obviously we should all be treated equally - they should be tried for assault & battery and if they are charged with a hate crime then the whites who hung the nooses should also be tried for a hate crime. I am just saying that we cannot pretend that our history is without consequeses and we can't keep our heads in the sand and pretend that the oppression and injustice doesn't still continues on a different level.

AND if the boy who was hurt is guilty of saying anything derrogatory to provoke the attack then he should be tried for a hate crime as well.

[Crystal_Ann]

I agree. I think hanging those nooses should defintely be considered a hate crime and the people involved should be tried for committing a hate crime.

As for the boy. If he did say anything derogatory, if making racist remarks are against the law in their State and people can be charged for it, I agree it should be considered a hate crime and tried as a hate crime but if not I think he should be expelled from school permanently just like an adult would be fired from their job if they a made derogatory remark.

[Wichita]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the "hate crime" designation, and the intent of such legislation. The objective of hate crime legislation is to hold people accountable for behavior that denies a person his civil right to life,
liberty and happiness, in accordance with due process of law. Racially inappropriate speech, regardless of how ignorant, hurtful, and outright mean it may be, does not meet the elements of the offense of a hate crime in any jurisdiction I have read the statutes in. Placing nooses in a tree is inappropriate speech, and may be considered fighting words which are not protected by the 1st Amendment, but unless the hanging of the nooses actually deprived another specific person of his individual civil liberties, then it is not a hate crime by definition. The poor woman in WV was called a "******" while being raped, forced to eat human, dog, and rodent feces, commit lesbian sexual acts, and was stabbed and beaten. She was imprisoned, and hidden from anyone who came around in order to avoid her presence from becoming known. There is no doubt that she would eventually have been murdered had she not been discovered. When this crime was first reported, the information was not clear about whether it was a hate crime by definition. It is clear, now, that it definitely is a hate crime, yet the penalty for the hate crime is a maximum of ten years in prison. It is better to prosecute them for the more serious crimes, and forgo the hate crime designation because the of the disparity in the potential sentencing. Hate crimes are generally considered civil rights violations, as opposed to criminal law violations. Some states have adopted criminal hate crime statutes that have a range of penalties associated with the behavior exhibited during the criminal episode. The hate crime designation is a sentence enhancer, as opposed to a separate crime in those jurisdictions. This makes the most sense, because the criminal can receive additional penalties in association with the rape, for example. If the WV case had happened in Colorado, the hate crime designation would have been charged as a sentence enhancer, and upon a finding of guilt, the defendant(s) would have an additional 10 years to life added to their sentence, on each conviction.

The murders of the white couple in Kentucky, I can't think of their names, where 5 or six black defendants tortured and raped both of them before murdering them is not being charged as a hate crime. Since the victims did not survive, no one knows whether the killers said, "This is what we do to honkies in Kentucky." It is truly irrelevant. The bottom line is that there are people in every race and ethnic origin who are so totally antisocial that none of us are safe while they breath the same air we do. The answer is simple. Deal consistently with evil wherever it is found. Deal with it fairly, and consistently across all lines of racial and ethnic origins. When we can do that as a society, the need for hate crime legislation will no longer be necessary.

When you think about it, when people kill other people, hatred is a common denominator regardless of the other motives. Some men hate women, so they rape and murder them. Eileen Wornos hated men....Blacks hate whites, whites hate blacks, hispanics hate asians, on and on. Criminals hate cops, regardless of their color. When a cop is murdered is it a hate crime? So, if we deal with the evil of hatred on all levels, could we all be satisfied that justice is being done? In my mind, not until Christ returns. I just don't have any faith that humanity can get it right. There will always be a special circumstance, or mitigation. He is psychotic, or his parents were abusive, or he does drugs, or he is an alcoholic, or the white kid had to have said something to provoke an attack. The black kids were suffering ptsd from the remnants of slavery than ended 150 years ago. No offense, but isn't this how we justify our hatred? Where does it start and stop?

[Angie1960]

Originally Posted by Wichita

There seems to be a misunderstanding of the "hate crime" designation, and the intent of such legislation. The objective of hate crime legislation is to hold people accountable for behavior that denies a person his civil right to life,
liberty and happiness, in accordance with due process of law. Racially inappropriate speech, regardless of how ignorant, hurtful, and outright mean it may be, does not meet the elements of the offense of a hate crime in any jurisdiction I have read the statutes in. Placing nooses in a tree is inappropriate speech, and may be considered fighting words which are not protected by the 1st Amendment, but unless the hanging of the nooses actually deprived another specific person of his individual civil liberties, then it is not a hate crime by definition. The poor woman in WV was called a "******" while being raped, forced to eat human, dog, and rodent feces, commit lesbian sexual acts, and was stabbed and beaten. She was imprisoned, and hidden from anyone who came around in order to avoid her presence from becoming known. There is no doubt that she would eventually have been murdered had she not been discovered. When this crime was first reported, the information was not clear about whether it was a hate crime by definition. It is clear, now, that it definitely is a hate crime, yet the penalty for the hate crime is a maximum of ten years in prison. It is better to prosecute them for the more serious crimes, and forgo the hate crime designation because the of the disparity in the potential sentencing. Hate crimes are generally considered civil rights violations, as opposed to criminal law violations. Some states have adopted criminal hate crime statutes that have a range of penalties associated with the behavior exhibited during the criminal episode. The hate crime designation is a sentence enhancer, as opposed to a separate crime in those jurisdictions. This makes the most sense, because the criminal can receive additional penalties in association with the rape, for example. If the WV case had happened in Colorado, the hate crime designation would have been charged as a sentence enhancer, and upon a finding of guilt, the defendant(s) would have an additional 10 years to life added to their sentence, on each conviction.

The murders of the white couple in Kentucky, I can't think of their names, where 5 or six black defendants tortured and raped both of them before murdering them is not being charged as a hate crime. Since the victims did not survive, no one knows whether the killers said, "This is what we do to honkies in Kentucky." It is truly irrelevant. The bottom line is that there are people in every race and ethnic origin who are so totally antisocial that none of us are safe while they breath the same air we do. The answer is simple. Deal consistently with evil wherever it is found. Deal with it fairly, and consistently across all lines of racial and ethnic origins. When we can do that as a society, the need for hate crime legislation will no longer be necessary.

When you think about it, when people kill other people, hatred is a common denominator regardless of the other motives. Some men hate women, so they rape and murder them. Eileen Wornos hated men....Blacks hate whites, whites hate blacks, hispanics hate asians, on and on. Criminals hate cops, regardless of their color. When a cop is murdered is it a hate crime? So, if we deal with the evil of hatred on all levels, could we all be satisfied that justice is being done? In my mind, not until Christ returns. I just don't have any faith that humanity can get it right. There will always be a special circumstance, or mitigation. He is psychotic, or his parents were abusive, or he does drugs, or he is an alcoholic, or the white kid had to have said something to provoke an attack. The black kids were suffering ptsd from the remnants of slavery than ended 150 years ago. No offense, but isn't this how we justify our hatred? Where does it start and stop?

If black kids asked to sit under that tree and then nooses were hung it definately violates & threatens their civil rights. While free speech is protected, it is still against the law to falsley shout fire in a crowded building. There are also laws that say some speech can incite trouble which I believe is also punishable.

I agree with you about the hate crime being a lower class crime then say, attempted murder or murder, or rape, etc. And I agree that criminals often use excuses. But there are cases where these excuses are legitimate. If I killed someone after they molested my child - the law should take that into consideration. It would be different if I turned around and killed his child. Crimes against completely innocent victims should not be treated the same as crimes against complicit victims.

You are a cop - and while just a little crotchety, I respect you (most of the time) but you have a cop mentality, which you need to do your job. I am not a cop, I am a humanist. A very passionate humanist who tries to see all angles. And I have total mistrust when it comes to our legal system and it's treatment of minorities.

[Wichita]

Well, I think you tolerate me best after a doobie or two, but we're getting along alright. One thing is certain, we haven't had a boring coexistence.

We are in agreement with the aspect of freedom of speech. I said the exact same thing you said, only differently. I am not in disagreement with you on your original post, it's just not my style. I wanted to explain the intent of the hate crime statutes to people who are not familiar with the system, and may have an erroneous perception of the intent of hate crime law.

My last paragraph was a bit "crotchety", and I was not trying to harpoon you in anyway for mitigating the reason, in your mind, that the 6 black kids beat up the one white kid. I honestly didn't realize the connection. Perhaps it was a Freudian slip, but I was cynically referring to what I consider to be a huge problem in our system with the mitigation of evil. I have no faith in humanity, and I do not trust the government to protect me, in as much as it consists of humans. Yet, not all humans are untrustworthy, therefore, it follows that not all passionate humanists are untrustworthy, nor or all cops, etc. We are what we are, and that is all that we are. Yet, individually, we associate ourselves with others of like mind. It makes our lives easier to tolerate in the midst of all of the injustice and unfairness. Taking risks is exciting, and scary, and stepping outside the comfort zone to face criticism or hatred takes courage.
I respect your decision to do so. I am just not convinced that every demonstration is always justifiable simply because thousands of people think it may be. JJ and AS arrived too late in Jena to make any difference for the defendants. The appeals court had already decided that the charges and jurisdiction were unconstitutional, and therefore ordered new trials in juvenile court. Those decisions were the result of the appeal process that was in place pre-JJ,AS, and their demonstration for "justice". The appeal process is part of the system that you do not trust. If the appeal had been denied, and the others tried in adult court, I would have agreed with the demonstrations. My opinion is that JJ and AS were simply grand standing, and disrupting a local community for selfish motives. Others will disagree, and that is fine. It is what makes our nation great. The bottom line is that the injustice has been reversed, and justice has been rendered as far as the original charges, and resulting conviction are concerned. What remains is to ensure that it doesn't happen under the same jurisdiction again. Perhaps that is a good reason to for JJ and AS to continue with the demonstration. If I was convinced that was their motive, I would relax my position.

Athena explained institutional racism to me, a phenomena that I was not familiar with. What she said made sense, and I can agree that the prosecutor and the rest of the local system was guilty of it. I think the appeals court found the same thing, and wisely reversed the conviction and jurisdiction. It would appear that the local system is in need of change, which I would submit has already taken place. If I were as close minded as some might think, I would have rationalized Athena's point, and refused to change my position. I guess that sort of puts me in good company, since I, too, try to see things from all angles, although I am not a humanitarian.

[Athena]

Wichita you have made some very valid points in your posts and it was well articulated.

One thing I want to clarify is that the march was/is not too late. There are other members of the Jena 6 (3?) that are still being tried in adult court and rightfully so because of their ages. I believe the minimum age in LA is 17 (Bell was 16 at the time, thus a juvenile). However, the charges are still excessive for those in adult court. They still face up to 15 years. While I believe they should be punished, this crime does not warrant that kind of time in jail. It would only serve to harden these teens and they would have learned nothing. They were charged with what could have happened as opposed to what actually happened. I truly hope and pray that the Court shows mercy with sentencing and that is what the march should be about. What I do object to is the slogan that was adopted "Free the Jena6". IMO -- a more appropriate slogan in this case would have been "Justice for the Jena6". They did commit a crime and should pay for it.

The murders you refer to above re: the blacks on white happened in Tennessee against two white college students - Channon Christian and Christophr Newsom. Those acts were horrific however as Wichita said we don't know if they were hate crimes because they did not live to tell what was said. It may come out that they were but IMO at least for now, they were two grusome, horrific murders that started out by car-jacking of an SUV and they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. These people were also feared by other blacks living in the neighborhood so they could have been just sick and perverted people who don't deserve to breathe the same air we do period. We don't know that they were carjacked and kidnapped just because they were white. Unfortunately crimes like this happen to black people too by other criminal blacks.

Sorry -- I don't remember who posted above that the Jena 6 should be charged with a hate crime. Like Wichita said, it appears that some don't understand the hate laws as motive is definitely the primary factor in determining whether one should be charged with a hate crime. In the Jena6 case, prior to the attack, Barker did taunt one of the teens re: an earlier beating he had received at a party he tried to crash. While Barker's action in no way warranted a six-on-one attack, there was provacation and he was not just a student randomly selected just because he was white. Had he been attacked without a prior incident (taunting) then it may have been considered a hate crime. A hate crime has to meet certain elements and this case does not meet those elements.

Re: the boys hanging the nooses -- the only thing I can say is I hope they learned a valuable lesson. I'm not sure they actually understood what they were doing and is just a sign of immaturity however if they could have been charged with a hate crime; they would have had to serve up to 10 years in jail and IMO again this would have been overcharging because they are juveniles and juveniles do stupid things. They did get punished by being suspended from school and forced to attend an alternative school away from their friends and had to attend counselling. It was determined by the US Justice Dept that there was nothing in their backgrounds to determine they had deliberately hung these nooses to antagonize blacks nor are there any hate crime laws specifically geared towards juveniles; thus they could not be charged with a hate crime.

I blame the school system for writing the hanging of the nooses off as a prank. They are the adults here and a message should have been sent loud and clear that zero tolerance for real or perceived threats would not be tolerated. This is where the institutionalized racism comes in. I believe some of the people in Jena have such ingrained beliefs and habits, they do not even realize they are biased and these beliefs would have an effect on the juveniles tht hung the nooses as well. Their belief system has just never been challenged before thus the whites in Jena saying there were no racial problems while the blacks overwhelmingly said there are.

A hanging noose IMO should be treated no differently than burning a cross on someone's lawn or placing a swastika on Jewish property. They are all intimidating period and I do not consider hanging a noose, burning a cross, placing a swastika or burning the American flag as free speech; there has to be boundaries and that is where the hate crime laws come in.

JMHO