So will the truth ever come out?

[Kitty B]

I sit and wonder if the truth will ever come out about Madeleine.

Now, seems a bit odd that her parents would cause all this ruckus if they indeed had something to do with her disappearance. Again, if they did, it is a surefire way to divert attention from themselves.....

I still can´t get over the sedation issue. That just blows me away, and on the news here in Norway they have said that that is quite normal for parents to do if they want to have some "alone time"....hm......

I also know that if my husband or myself (GOD FORBID) was ever involved in any type of accident involving our children, neither of us would lie for the other. The truth will always set you free.......

I think the mother seems cold and unemotional. It could be that she is in shock and can´t cope, but I don´t know. What about the diary? What mother keeps a diary and whines about how hyper their kids are? I don´t get it.......

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Kitty B

I sit and wonder if the truth will ever come out about Madeleine.

Now, seems a bit odd that her parents would cause all this ruckus if they indeed had something to do with her disappearance. Again, if they did, it is a surefire way to divert attention from themselves.....

I still can´t get over the sedation issue. That just blows me away, and on the news here in Norway they have said that that is quite normal for parents to do if they want to have some "alone time"....hm......

I also know that if my husband or myself (GOD FORBID) was ever involved in any type of accident involving our children, neither of us would lie for the other. The truth will always set you free.......

I think the mother seems cold and unemotional. It could be that she is in shock and can´t cope, but I don´t know. What about the diary? What mother keeps a diary and whines about how hyper their kids are? I don´t get it.......

All the crap about the diary and the mother--whatever is part of a deliberate disinformation campaign by the portugese cops to smear the parents and sway public opinion against them; all these endless supposed leaks, I thought it was all secret? I don't believe a single reported thing until I hear the McCanns say it, to me its just a PR campaign by the inept cops. JMHO

[Jo_Momma_82]

I will publicly say that my 2 and 4 yr. olds are hyperactive and can grate on my nerves every once in awhile. I don't know a single mother who doesn't get even a little overwhelmed. I KNOW that this will never lead to anything more than a little "solitary" in the corner or me eventually developing a nervous tick (LOL). As far as sedating the kids and leaving them, WOW ! I don't understand what would ever make either of those 'ok' to the parents. I actually had my daughters pediatrician tell me that it was ok to give my, now 8 yr. old daughter, benadryl to sleep (for colic from birth-3 months old) but, I couldn't do it. I think the only reason why she suggested it though was b/c she saw that my daughter was getting no sleep and crying constantly and couldn't find any other way to help her.

[JBRnotforgotten]

I don't understand why they are being treated like bad criminals and yet others are having sightings of Madeleine. I can not imagine how Kate and Gerry feel... I pray for them and of course Madeleine too

[Pelicanette]

None of us knows how we would feel or what we would do in such a situation. Many people like to post exactly what they would say and do, but in such an emotional shock, nobody knows. We may do something totally bizarre. I think Kate is in shock most of the time. But there are times she weeps. That is what any parent would do. She is caught up in a nightmare. I think the Portuguese police are inept fools at best and corrupt torturers at worst. They have not managed to leak one legitimate, provable fact thus far. I do not trust them at all. How dare them say the McCanns can no longer talk about their own daughter. It is the JOB of the police to find a missing child, and the Portuguese police have not done it.

[Eagle1]

I believe you're the first member we've had from Norway.

Maybe they didn't actually sedate Maddie, which if I remember correctly has been eliminated, but I may not remember correctly.

Leaving such young children alone, I agree, is absolutely inexcusable.

Naturally we can imagine how they would finally feel about getting caught doing this. We're not dunces. We also know a lot more, for instance that if we did such a thing we'd probably be in prison or something.

If the perp turns out to be someone else, fine, as long as Maddie is found alive and well, and surely they will have finally learned their common sense lesson. Nobody, including police who risk their lives for us every day, is being too rough on the McCanns.

Internet posters' loyalty should be with all of us colleagues, and our right to post our points of view equally, without attacks from those who claim to absolutely know the McC's are innocent and we're not, according to the rules all forums have. Hope you enjoy being with us. Don't take it seriously if anyone starts in about your sources being misleading or tabloids, just fillibustering. The Updates Only sticky always has the facts.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

I believe you're the first member we've had from Norway.

Maybe they didn't actually sedate Maddie, which if I remember correctly has been eliminated, but I may not remember correctly.

Leaving such young children alone, I agree, is absolutely inexcusable.

Naturally we can imagine how they would finally feel about getting caught doing this. We're not dunces. We also know a lot more, for instance that if we did such a thing we'd probably be in prison or something.

If the perp turns out to be someone else, fine, as long as Maddie is found alive and well, and surely they will have finally learned their common sense lesson. Nobody, including police who risk their lives for us every day, is being too rough on the McCanns.

Internet posters' loyalty should be with all of us colleagues, and our right to post our points of view equally, without attacks from those who claim to absolutely know the McC's are innocent and we're not, according to the rules all forums have. Hope you enjoy being with us. Don't take it seriously if anyone starts in about your sources being misleading or tabloids, just fillibustering. The Updates Only sticky always has the facts.

Who has ever posted that they "absolutely know" the McCanns are innocent? I've seen plenty post that they believe there isn't sufficient evidence to prove their guilt or even that they don't think they are guilty - but I've never seen anyone post what you claim.

Facts are important. We are talking about real people's lives here. The tabloids have created a load of fairy stories around this case and many of these hurtful lies have been perpetuated on Internet forums. That is why forums like this require sources. Posters who make factual statements backed up with credible sources have nothing to fear. I think you'll find the Mods share this opinion.

[Eagle1]

Again, I have to agree with you.

Nobody's ever posted a SOURCE, that I know of, proving as FACT that any of the people in this case are innocent, no source, tabloid or whatever.

We've said over and over we're neutral as long as Maddie is found.

I've just had to do a defrag to get into any of CL tonight, also an AOL one, and I may have to wait until some time when there's less traffic.

First, can I share a bit of good news, not sure I could get into Blowin Off Steam? Wednesday I went to my retina specialist where I'd had a series of 4 up-to-100-laser-burns to seal off rogue blood vessels, and vision had improved in the eye which has been healing longest, from 20/50 to 20/40. The procedure's not even meant to improve vision, just to stop proliferation of extra blood vessels which cause blindness. When I go back in 2 mo. hopefully I may have some improvement in my worse eye too. The goal is just to save it, no guarantees. Thanks for listening, friends.

I'll let Odette reply about her source, if she thinks it's important enough. If she doesn't, I agree.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

Again, I have to agree with you.

Nobody's ever posted a SOURCE, that I know of, proving as FACT that any of the people in this case are innocent, no source, tabloid or whatever.

You cannot prove a negative - which is precisely why the law views a person as innocent until proved guilty. Thankfully, we all enjoy that right in the civilised world.

It's absolutely not wrong to be suspicious of a person -it's not even wrong to express an opinion that they might be guilty when these suspicions and opinions are based upon facts. What IS wrong IMO is spreading hurtful misinformation and lies about the McCanns which influence the opinions of other people.

[Eagle1]

We're suspicious of quite a few people, plus unknown people, for which SOURCES are demanded, so our defense is the same, you can't prove a negative; they're all innocent until proven guilty.

They're ALL innocent until proven guilty, not just the McCanns. So if people have to have sources about them, they've also got to have sources about the McCanns, fair and equal.

Everybody's also suspect, besides "innocent until proven guilty". That's simple enough.

It's very early morning here, didn't go back to bed yet after a b/r break, and computer slowness is still almost as bad as last night, when I did two disk cleanups, not defrags, so if anyone else can translate that more simple, feel free. I need some more z's, and already explained about my eye treatments stress too. TIA.

[sallynuts]

I do not think the parents are to blame here... and that is in my own opinion,, ok..

i would just like to say,, without taking anything away from Madeliene.... how many children went missing this year? and have not been found? or last year for that matter,, or the year before... why are we soooo focused on this one child?? she is precious,, yes,, but no more precious than the next child...

I do pray, and i wish and hope that she and every other child that has EVER gone missing,, is found... i don't know what happened to them.. i wish i did,, so that all you parents out there could find peace... i am a parent.. and i can only imagine the agony that you must go through each day...

for those who know what happened... and i know you will read this ... you won't be able to help yourselves.. you will get yours... maybe not today,,, but me or my kind will be waiting for you;.... don't ever think you will get away with it... we'll get ya....

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

We're suspicious of quite a few people, plus unknown people, for which SOURCES are demanded, so our defense is the same, you can't prove a negative; they're all innocent until proven guilty.

They're ALL innocent until proven guilty, not just the McCanns. So if people have to have sources about them, they've also got to have sources about the McCanns, fair and equal.

Everybody's also suspect, besides "innocent until proven guilty". That's simple enough.

It's very early morning here, didn't go back to bed yet after a b/r break, and computer slowness is still almost as bad as last night, when I did two disk cleanups, not defrags, so if anyone else can translate that more simple, feel free. I need some more z's, and already explained about my eye treatments stress too. TIA.

I requested a source for your suggestion that Kate McCann is bipolar. That is a very specific claim. I see plenty of avoidance and excuses but no attempt to provide the source.

[Babootje]

Although I find it very upsetting to think Gerry & Kate McCann have something to do with the disappearance of Madeleine I do (except of de evidence found) because of the following (excuse me for my bad english, for Im Dutch):

This is what they did, all nine friends during their holliday. They had dinner every evening, where all children were left alone. Only David and Fiona used an intercom system to hear if their children did not cry.
The dinner almost always lasted up to midnight. They came as from 8:30 PM to table, used aperitifs. Most of them drank the beer with martini, that is popular in Portugal, but Kate drank for example a cocktail on rum basis. Normally they also drank firm spirits after eating, but the particular evening they didn't came to that.
When all nine frieds arrived the ordered wine (white and red) en usually 10-12 bottles.
That evening no one of the guests at table has been left except Gerry and Russell, as becomes clear from depositions of the staff of the Tapas bar. Just as after nine and almost simultaneous. Gerry and Russell (man of Jane Tanner) left the table. Russell stayed away for an hour, with excuus that his doughter has been sick and the bed had to be changed, of which never proof has been found; there was never asked for clean bedsheets.

Gerry came into Jeremy, a producer that he met during the holiday, who walked his child tot sleep. On the same time Jane Tanner claimes to have seen the man with the child she believes was Maddie, but according to the waiters she has not been off the table, or they must have been mistaken.
When Gerry was already half an hour back at the table, Russell just returned.

A little while later (at 10.00) Kate left en alarms the group shouting from of the veranda. (In other versions she first went back to the group.) Everyone (except Dianne) went into the apartment. Dianne went a little later on. (In one of the TV productions Jane claims she was already in her apartment when Kate set out the alarm, this while every evening before she always stayed at the table with the others until midnight)
Dianne find everyone in the apartment to where the friends literally take everything in their hands, try doors, windows everything. (The later collected evidence became this way worthless, because they were contaminated products)
Then Pamela Fenn offers to phone the GNR (local police) Kate says that it is not necessary, because she already did so. Fact is although that phone call was done at 22.40 hrs, an hour after the discovery of disappearance.
At 23.00 the GNR arrived; because they didn't speak English, a staff member was asked to translate. After middernacht the Policia Juardica (PJ) arrived and the family where transferred. The twins who were fast asleep, did not awake during the transfer.
The first thing that occurs to the PJ is that the apartment is very clean and neat (while the McCanns just put 3 children in bath and to bed, just before they went to dinner)
Futhermore it occured strange to them (the PJ) that there was no first aid medicine in the apartment, something usual to take with you on holidays especially with children.

Cuddlecat was the only toy in the room which Kate held in her hands. At first she claimes it was on the floor, later she claims it was on a shelf of which was to high for Maddie to put it her self.
Later on there was discovered a scent of a corpse on the toy, of which Kate claimes this was related to her work.

What also was striking is that Kate insisted immediately on kidnapping, whereas the child could run also outside.

The PJ press the McCanns to the heart to not give the special details concerning Maddies eyes and how she looked. They warned them this will increase the possibility that the kidnapper wil get rid of her and kill her.
In spite of that they themselves initiated tot publish the photo's of Maddie including the special mark in her eyes (and deliberately took the risk the child would be killed).

[Babootje]

24Horas came with the news that Russell O Brien and Jane Tanner and another couple that also were in the Ocean Clup at the time Maddie disappeared (James and Charlotte Gorlod) in Exeter neighbours are of Samantha the sister of Robert Murat. He stayed with his sister 10 days and returned tot Praia da Luz two days before the disappearance of Maddie.
The police wants to check if in the weeks before the disappearance there was contact between them.

Furthermore it is relatively quiet concerning information coming from the PJ.
It is possible that this is for not giving too much information to the legal team of the McCanns.
In the articles that Odette translated from the Portugese papers you could conclude that we are near a final conclusion.
Although a great deal of the evidence found is inconclusive, some of them (they do not tell us which) are supportive of the line of research...
The PJ now is in the stage of completing the puzzle...
The McCanns fled to an unknown place for privacy reasons...
The PJ is preparing new hearings...
I think this will become to an end soon.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Babootje

24Horas came with the news that Russell O Brien and Jane Tanner and another couple that also were in the Ocean Clup at the time Maddie disappeared (James and Charlotte Gorlod) in Exeter neighbours are of Samantha the sister of Robert Murat. He stayed with his sister 10 days and returned tot Praia da Luz two days before the disappearance of Maddie.
The police wants to check if in the weeks before the disappearance there was contact between them.

Furthermore it is relatively quiet concerning information coming from the PJ.
It is possible that this is for not giving too much information to the legal team of the McCanns.
In the articles that Odette translated from the Portugese papers you could conclude that we are near a final conclusion.
Although a great deal of the evidence found is inconclusive, some of them (they do not tell us which) are supportive of the line of research...
The PJ now is in the stage of completing the puzzle...
The McCanns fled to an unknown place for privacy reasons...
The PJ is preparing new hearings...
I think this will become to an end soon.

This is 24 Horas you are talking about - the Portuguese tabloid which will go down in the history of the case as having the most inaccurate and far-fetched reporting about the case. The McCanns are allegedly planning to suit them.

Exeter has a population of 120,000. It's a fairly spread out part of the country and Murat's sister is reported here as living within a few miles of the O'Brien's.

It's a link worth investigating - but it's hardly a smoking gun. IMO it's just another story to keep the papers selling.

[Results]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

I believe you're the first member we've had from Norway.

Maybe they didn't actually sedate Maddie, which if I remember correctly has been eliminated, but I may not remember correctly.

Leaving such young children alone, I agree, is absolutely inexcusable.

Naturally we can imagine how they would finally feel about getting caught doing this. We're not dunces. We also know a lot more, for instance that if we did such a thing we'd probably be in prison or something.

If the perp turns out to be someone else, fine, as long as Maddie is found alive and well, and surely they will have finally learned their common sense lesson. Nobody, including police who risk their lives for us every day, is being too rough on the McCanns.

Internet posters' loyalty should be with all of us colleagues, and our right to post our points of view equally, without attacks from those who claim to absolutely know the McC's are innocent and we're not, according to the rules all forums have. Hope you enjoy being with us. Don't take it seriously if anyone starts in about your sources being misleading or tabloids, just fillibustering. The Updates Only sticky always has the facts.

Hey Eagle!

I for one don't care about the personal attacks. I have the right to my opinion and my VERY HONEST OPINION IS they are guilty either way. If she was kidnapped they are responsible. When a Mother feels like her children are being watched you don't leave them alone for who ever is watching your children to have an opportunity to take them. I don't buy their story for that reason. Some one is stalking you but you just go right ahead and leave the children alone? Something not right here. JMHO

[Results]

Originally Posted by Babootje

Although I find it very upsetting to think Gerry & Kate McCann have something to do with the disappearance of Madeleine I do (except of de evidence found) because of the following (excuse me for my bad english, for Im Dutch):

This is what they did, all nine friends during their holliday. They had dinner every evening, where all children were left alone. Only David and Fiona used an intercom system to hear if their children did not cry.
The dinner almost always lasted up to midnight. They came as from 8:30 PM to table, used aperitifs. Most of them drank the beer with martini, that is popular in Portugal, but Kate drank for example a cocktail on rum basis. Normally they also drank firm spirits after eating, but the particular evening they didn't came to that.
When all nine frieds arrived the ordered wine (white and red) en usually 10-12 bottles.
That evening no one of the guests at table has been left except Gerry and Russell, as becomes clear from depositions of the staff of the Tapas bar. Just as after nine and almost simultaneous. Gerry and Russell (man of Jane Tanner) left the table. Russell stayed away for an hour, with excuus that his doughter has been sick and the bed had to be changed, of which never proof has been found; there was never asked for clean bedsheets.

Gerry came into Jeremy, a producer that he met during the holiday, who walked his child tot sleep. On the same time Jane Tanner claimes to have seen the man with the child she believes was Maddie, but according to the waiters she has not been off the table, or they must have been mistaken.
When Gerry was already half an hour back at the table, Russell just returned.

A little while later (at 10.00) Kate left en alarms the group shouting from of the veranda. (In other versions she first went back to the group.) Everyone (except Dianne) went into the apartment. Dianne went a little later on. (In one of the TV productions Jane claims she was already in her apartment when Kate set out the alarm, this while every evening before she always stayed at the table with the others until midnight)
Dianne find everyone in the apartment to where the friends literally take everything in their hands, try doors, windows everything. (The later collected evidence became this way worthless, because they were contaminated products)
Then Pamela Fenn offers to phone the GNR (local police) Kate says that it is not necessary, because she already did so. Fact is although that phone call was done at 22.40 hrs, an hour after the discovery of disappearance.
At 23.00 the GNR arrived; because they didn't speak English, a staff member was asked to translate. After middernacht the Policia Juardica (PJ) arrived and the family where transferred. The twins who were fast asleep, did not awake during the transfer.
The first thing that occurs to the PJ is that the apartment is very clean and neat (while the McCanns just put 3 children in bath and to bed, just before they went to dinner)
Futhermore it occured strange to them (the PJ) that there was no first aid medicine in the apartment, something usual to take with you on holidays especially with children.

Cuddlecat was the only toy in the room which Kate held in her hands. At first she claimes it was on the floor, later she claims it was on a shelf of which was to high for Maddie to put it her self.
Later on there was discovered a scent of a corpse on the toy, of which Kate claimes this was related to her work.

What also was striking is that Kate insisted immediately on kidnapping, whereas the child could run also outside.

The PJ press the McCanns to the heart to not give the special details concerning Maddies eyes and how she looked. They warned them this will increase the possibility that the kidnapper wil get rid of her and kill her.
In spite of that they themselves initiated tot publish the photo's of Maddie including the special mark in her eyes (and deliberately took the risk the child would be killed).

Excellent post!

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Results

Hey Eagle!

I for one don't care about the personal attacks. I have the right to my opinion and my VERY HONEST OPINION IS they are guilty either way. If she was kidnapped they are responsible. When a Mother feels like her children are being watched you don't leave them alone for who ever is watching your children to have an opportunity to take them. I don't buy their story for that reason. Some one is stalking you but you just go right ahead and leave the children alone? Something not right here. JMHO

I'd be interested in your source for Kate feeling that someone was watching/stalking her before Madeleine went missing (as opposed to thinking this with hindsight)?

I know that Gerry has said that "in retrospect" they feel that someone might have been watching them, but I've never seen any credible source which stated that prior to Madeleine's disappearance either McCann felt they were being watched/stalked.

When Gerry McCann stated in an interview that he thought the abductor might have actually hiding been in the apartment when he checked on the children one of the tabloid forums whipped itself into a frenzy over Gerry "thinking there was an abductor in the apartment and choosing to return to his meal regardless" - which of course was not at all what was said. Gerry McCann had been speaking "with hindsight".

[Jayelles]

Contrary to Result's claim that the McCanns had felt that prior to Madeleine being taken, that they were being watched/stalked, I have noted several occasions where they said they felt safe. Here is one interview:-

Mrs McCann said: "I ask myself, 'Why did I think it was safe?' But it felt safe. You don't expect a predator to break in and take your daughter."

http://internationalrewardscentre.co...d=824&Itemid=2

Here is another:-

"If I had thought for a second that they were in any danger or in any risk I would have never done it. This place is so small and so quiet – we all just felt safe.

"We were still within the complex grounds and were checking on them regularly.

"We never thought that anything like this could ever happen – not in such a peaceful and quiet resort like Praia da Luz."

http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/...4375-19660629/

I don't think that they would have "felt safe" if they were feeling that they were being watched or stalked.

[andU]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Contrary to Result's claim that the McCanns had felt that prior to Madeleine being taken, that they were being watched/stalked, I have noted several occasions where they said they felt safe. Here is one interview:-



http://internationalrewardscentre.co...d=824&Itemid=2

Here is another:-



http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/...4375-19660629/

I don't think that they would have "felt safe" if they were feeling that they were being watched or stalked.

I agree with you, Jayelles. Some people read the tabloids and think they are reading truth in print when in fact, it is nothing but sensationalism - written to sell the garbage. I give them not one minute of my time; they don't know fact from fiction.

[Babootje]

The possibillity of sedation of Maddie is not ruled out. The McCanns' did som testing on the hairs of the twinns to prove that they were not sedated. But... there were traces found in DNA samples with a sedation.
With the testing they thus prooved (in my opinion) that the DNA traces in which the sedation is found must belong to Maddie. (For the DNA of the twinns is very similar whith Maddies).

The whole case of the disappearance of Maddie rests on DNA evidence and some circumstantial evidence such as telephone records, the testimonies of the friends and staff of the Ocean Club . The PJ is preparing a re interview but all friends now have had enough time to coordinate their testimonies.

I hope the PJ has more evidence in reserve, otherwise I fear we will never know what happened.

In my opinion the truth mostly lies nearby the most logical explanation.
That is why I cannot believe the kidnapping story, because pedophile kidnappers mostly are opportunists that will not take such a risk to take a sleeping child out of an appartment with other children sleeping.
The are many more childeren easier to take, sadly because nobody gives a ****. Why take Madeleine? Thats something I can not believe.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Babootje

The possibillity of sedation of Maddie is not ruled out. The McCanns' did som testing on the hairs of the twinns to prove that they were not sedated. But... there were traces found in DNA samples with a sedation.
With the testing they thus prooved (in my opinion) that the DNA traces in which the sedation is found must belong to Maddie. (For the DNA of the twinns is very similar whith Maddies).

The whole case of the disappearance of Maddie rests on DNA evidence and some circumstantial evidence such as telephone records, the testimonies of the friends and staff of the Ocean Club . The PJ is preparing a re interview but all friends now have had enough time to coordinate their testimonies.

I hope the PJ has more evidence in reserve, otherwise I fear we will never know what happened.

In my opinion the truth mostly lies nearby the most logical explanation.
That is why I cannot believe the kidnapping story, because pedophile kidnappers mostly are opportunists that will not take such a risk to take a sleeping child out of an appartment with other children sleeping.
The are many more childeren easier to take, sadly because nobody gives a ****. Why take Madeleine? Thats something I can not believe.

Do you have a source for traces of sedation being found in the DNA?

Don't you think if the PJ had evidence they would have arrested someone?

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by andU

I agree with you, Jayelles. Some people read the tabloids and think they are reading truth in print when in fact, it is nothing but sensationalism - written to sell the garbage. I give them not one minute of my time; they don't know fact from fiction.

If this case has taught me anything, it's that some tabloids will print anything to sell their newspapers.

[andU]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

If this case has taught me anything, it's that some tabloids will print anything to sell their newspapers.

Yeah, this case, Elvis' death and the Ramsey case - they have made a haul! ..and foolish people still buy the trash and take every word as truth.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by andU

Yeah, this case, Elvis' death and the Ramsey case - they have made a haul! ..and foolish people still buy the trash and take every word as truth.

Well... I think it speaks volumes that the BBC and the broadsheet newspapers have hardly covered the case at all. Several months ago they condemned the tabloids for manufacturing stories in order to keep up sales and said they would only report facts when there were facts to report. And they've been largely silent!

Today there is a report which says that contrary to the tabloids saying that Maddie's blood was found in the apartment - that the lab which did the testing said that they couldn't even tell whether it was blood let alone whether it was Maddie's!

[andU]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Well... I think it speaks volumes that the BBC and the broadsheet newspapers have hardly covered the case at all. Several months ago they condemned the tabloids for manufacturing stories in order to keep up sales and said they would only report facts when there were facts to report. And they've been largely silent!

Today there is a report which says that contrary to the tabloids saying that Maddie's blood was found in the apartment - that the lab which did the testing said that they couldn't even tell whether it was blood let alone whether it was Maddie's!

I can believe that. They blow everything out of proportion and/or invent something.

[Babootje]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Do you have a source for traces of sedation being found in the DNA?

Don't you think if the PJ had evidence they would have arrested someone?

It has been a while, when I read that. It was in one of the newspapers. I try to look it up for you.

The thing is, why the police did not arrest them, is that the traces they found in the appartment en the rented car are so poor that they are not conclusive.
For instance, there the DNA that was found could belong to Maddie and the twins ass well, because it was not possible to get a full DNA profile from the poor material.
Furthermore the material found in the appartment was contaminated,
because the McCanns took care of that "the whole world and its dog" (as the PJ statet) had been in there before the police came. They litteraly took everything in their hands, opened doors and windows etc.

Although there are very strong leads, they are all circumstantial.
Furthermore, there is an enormous political pressure on this case.
Gerry McCann is a very high in rank member of the masonry; they have a lot of very influencial friends. So in fact the PJ has to proove guilt (beyond doubt) before they can be arrested.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Babootje

It has been a while, when I read that. It was in one of the newspapers. I try to look it up for you.

Thank you.

The thing is, why the police did not arrest them, is that the traces they found in the appartment en the rented car are so poor that they are not conclusive.

The reason the police haven't areested them is because there is no proof that they harmed their daughter! In yesterday's papers, it was reported that the Portuguese police are admitting that there is no proof Madeleine is dead. For the past few months, they have been saying that they believe that she IS dead. It's just all a mess.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle559642.ece

For instance, there the DNA that was found could belong to Maddie and the twins ass well, because it was not possible to get a full DNA profile from the poor material.

Actually, we don't know anything about the DNA evidence because all that has been printed about it is tabloid speculation. There has been NO official statement about it. The newspapers this week said that they only found 17 cells in the car - which is really microscopic.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...icle541098.ece

Furthermore the material found in the appartment was contaminated,
because the McCanns took care of that "the whole world and its dog" (as the PJ statet) had been in there before the police came. They litteraly took everything in their hands, opened doors and windows etc.

You are blaming the McCanns for this? Are they also to blame for the cops and SOCO allegedly dropping their cigarette ash?

Although there are very strong leads, they are all circumstantial.
Furthermore, there is an enormous political pressure on this case.
Gerry McCann is a very high in rank member of the masonry; they have a lot of very influencial friends. So in fact the PJ has to proove guilt (beyond doubt) before they can be arrested.

There was certainly speculation on the Mirror gossip tabloid forum that Gerry McCann is a Mason, but do you have proof of this? I haven't seen it from any credible source and there is also the FACT that he is a Catholic - and a Glasgwegian Catholic at that. Catholics are not usually Freemasons (in fact Freemasonry goes against the Catholic faith).

If you are going to make statements "as fact" like this, please provide a source.

[Babootje]

Jayelles:
Herewith my first reaction:
The information that traces of drugs were found in DNA similar toe Maddies was in serveral papers ca. half september; o.a. Correio da Manha
It is difficult to recollect the older news but after searching I found the news on a Duch site: http://www.nu.nl/news/1235839/21/'Madeleine_gedood_door_drugs'.html
It states that the source of the information is the French paper Soir, and their source is the Portugese Police.
It states that traces of drugs were found in the bodily fluids found in the car the McCanns hired 25 days after the disappearance of Maddie.

Because the McCanns stated themselves that the DNA found in the hire car could be from the twinss (because the have DNA similar to Maddies) and the test the did on the twins and Kate, I assume the DNA must be Maddies.

Your statement that the PJ did not arrest the McCanns because there is no proof they harmed their daughter is the exact truth.
All the found evidence on itself can't point even out that Maddie is dead.

The scent of corpse and blood found by specially trained sniffer dogs was the reason of the turn in the investigation. That special scent only comes ca. 2 hours after death; with a child it could be earlier.
Before that, the parents were no suspects.
Snifferdogs found a few different traces of blood, one was not Maddies, one was Maddies. The named traces was found under a tile in the appartment and was not visible for the eye because of cleaning up. (Source is Correio da Manha, must look it up),
Furthermore the snifferdogs picked op a scent of corpse in the hire care en the same scent leading to the coast, where a big search was submitted. They also picked up the scent on cuddle cat and clothes of Kate.
Off course the PJ investigate there was no earlier or later death in the appartment in the weeks before and after the disappearance.
The scent on itself is not enough evidence, because it could not direct be linked to Maddie.
Correio da Manha reported also a found seringe with a tranquillizer on a commode in the bedroom of the children.

About the cuddle cat there were also strange statements made by Kate; at first she stated she found it on the floor and that was why she was alarmed, because Maddie always held it. In another statement cuddle cat was on a shelf out of reach of Maddie so that the kidnapper would have placed it there.

Furthermore there are the contradictions in statement of the McCann friends.
They stated regulary checks on the children. A computer reconstruction based on this statement pointed out that a kidnapper would have a few minutes to go in and out the appartment and take Maddie.
However, the waiters of the tapas restaurant did not see any of them leave the table, except Gerry and Russel O Brien, who stayed away for an hour, with the excuse that is daughter was ill and threw up (and he had to clean the bed) of which never found any proove like filthy bedsheets or a request of clean sheets.

You are right by stating that the PJ made mistakes at the beginning but they seriously did not think the worst at that time. Maddie could simply had been wandering off.
It was the McCanns that directly stated there was a kidnapping without ransom. But they themselves intelligent people (maybe watched CSI sometimes) let all their friends wandering in and out of the appartment.

For what I know about the free masonry and catolisism is that today both wont "bite" eachother. I try to find the article.
In the free masonry it is usage to cremate the death. That is perhaps why the interest of the PJ went out to a nearby crematorium, but a search there led to nothing.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Babootje

Jayelles:
Herewith my first reaction:
The information that traces of drugs were found in DNA similar toe Maddies was in serveral papers ca. half september; o.a. Correio da Manha
It is difficult to recollect the older news but after searching I found the news on a Duch site: http://www.nu.nl/news/1235839/21/'Madeleine_gedood_door_drugs'.html
It states that the source of the information is the French paper Soir, and their source is the Portugese Police.
It states that traces of drugs were found in the bodily fluids found in the car the McCanns hired 25 days after the disappearance of Maddie.

Because the McCanns stated themselves that the DNA found in the hire car could be from the twinss (because the have DNA similar to Maddies) and the test the did on the twins and Kate, I assume the DNA must be Maddies.

Your statement that the PJ did not arrest the McCanns because there is no proof they harmed their daughter is the exact truth.
All the found evidence on itself can't point even out that Maddie is dead.

The scent of corpse and blood found by specially trained sniffer dogs was the reason of the turn in the investigation. That special scent only comes ca. 2 hours after death; with a child it could be earlier.
Before that, the parents were no suspects.
Snifferdogs found a few different traces of blood, one was not Maddies, one was Maddies. The named traces was found under a tile in the appartment and was not visible for the eye because of cleaning up. (Source is Correio da Manha, must look it up),
Furthermore the snifferdogs picked op a scent of corpse in the hire care en the same scent leading to the coast, where a big search was submitted. They also picked up the scent on cuddle cat and clothes of Kate.
Off course the PJ investigate there was no earlier or later death in the appartment in the weeks before and after the disappearance.
The scent on itself is not enough evidence, because it could not direct be linked to Maddie.
Correio da Manha reported also a found seringe with a tranquillizer on a commode in the bedroom of the children.

About the cuddle cat there were also strange statements made by Kate; at first she stated she found it on the floor and that was why she was alarmed, because Maddie always held it. In another statement cuddle cat was on a shelf out of reach of Maddie so that the kidnapper would have placed it there.

Furthermore there are the contradictions in statement of the McCann friends.
They stated regulary checks on the children. A computer reconstruction based on this statement pointed out that a kidnapper would have a few minutes to go in and out the appartment and take Maddie.
However, the waiters of the tapas restaurant did not see any of them leave the table, except Gerry and Russel O Brien, who stayed away for an hour, with the excuse that is daughter was ill and threw up (and he had to clean the bed) of which never found any proove like filthy bedsheets or a request of clean sheets.

You are right by stating that the PJ made mistakes at the beginning but they seriously did not think the worst at that time. Maddie could simply had been wandering off.
It was the McCanns that directly stated there was a kidnapping without ransom. But they themselves intelligent people (maybe watched CSI sometimes) let all their friends wandering in and out of the appartment.

For what I know about the free masonry and catolisism is that today both wont "bite" eachother. I try to find the article.
In the free masonry it is usage to cremate the death. That is perhaps why the interest of the PJ went out to a nearby crematorium, but a search there led to nothing.

There are so many points in your post that I want to address, but I have a heavy cold and I just want to have an early night.

Regarding the Crime Scene being trashed
There are numerous witnesses who have stated that the McCanns were beside themselves with anguish when they discovered Madeleine was missing - I really don't think they were in any state of mind to be concerned with preserving evidence - even if they did watch CSI (and we don't know that they did/do - I post on these forums and I have never seen a single episode of CSI - ever!). That is pure speculation.

Regarding the Waiters
The waiters in the bar were working - not standing watch over the McCanns. Just because the waiters didn't see them leave doesn't mean they didn't. Remember - prior to the 3rd May, they were just another family on holiday to these waiters. Some of the waiters sold stories to the tabloids at the end of the season - what kind of stories do you suppose would sell? The tabloids also twist things to suit their own purpose. An interview could have gone something like this:-

Journalist: Did you see the McCanns leave the table?
Waiter: No
Journlaist: Not even once?
Waiter: No
Journalist: Were you there all night?
Waiter: Yes

Headline - "Waiter says 'I was there all night and never saw the McCanns leave the table once"

Regarding the Sniffer Dogs
The sniffer dogs make false alerts all the time. That is not evidence. It's like geophys. You get a signal and you start digging. Sometimes you find nothing and sometimes you find treasure, but just because you get a signal, doesn't always mean there's treasure there.

Regarding the Blood
This week the newspapers said that the British labs said that they couldn't even tell whether the sample was blood - let alone whether it was Madeleine's blood. These apartments are let out for 20+ weeks of the year to families of 4-6 people on a weekly basis. People cut their feet on holidays because they walk around barefoot on beach holidays. There is a high possibility that a degraded blood sample on the floor of the apartment could belong to any one of several dozen people who'd stayed there over the previous months.

Regarding the Scent of Death
Apparently, the "scent of death" is a chemical substance (whose name I forget but it's like cadaver....") and it is also present in urine and semen amongst other things! Therefore, cadaver dogs can false alert on urine and semen.

Regarding the Portugues Police as a Source
I'm sorry, but the Portuguese police have proved to be a highly unreliable source of information. Just think of all the inaccurate and contradictory stories which have appeared over the months whose source was the Portuguese police.

[Babootje]

We will see. Never said it wasn't difficult

[Seashell]

Originally Posted by Babootje

We will see. Never said it wasn't difficult

I also had my doubts about the parents, they are negligent in my eyes for leaving those babies alone to go out wine and dine with the tapas 9.
I am also sitting tight and waiting to see what will come out sooner or later.
Time alone will tell.


Maddie you are not forgotten...

[Results]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

I'd be interested in your source for Kate feeling that someone was watching/stalking her before Madeleine went missing (as opposed to thinking this with hindsight)?

I know that Gerry has said that "in retrospect" they feel that someone might have been watching them, but I've never seen any credible source which stated that prior to Madeleine's disappearance either McCann felt they were being watched/stalked.

When Gerry McCann stated in an interview that he thought the abductor might have actually hiding been in the apartment when he checked on the children one of the tabloid forums whipped itself into a frenzy over Gerry "thinking there was an abductor in the apartment and choosing to return to his meal regardless" - which of course was not at all what was said. Gerry McCann had been speaking "with hindsight".

I will have to look it up and I don't know if I will find it in time before the closing of CL. However, I expect to see you at our new community and I will let you know where I read that. I also want to let you know that I registered on the Mirror Forum as Results (any website I join I use the same name Results) and I made one post. This post was to ask did Gerry McCann really write that in his blog and was told I was so niave. The reason that I don't post there are read there since then is because if you are making things up about Gerry's blog as a joke that is pretty sick IMO. I don't know what happened to Maddy and I don't know who done what and for someone to print false accusations of Gerry writing in his blogs as a sense of humor that person needs help. IF I did get this from a tabloid as you say I will be the first one to stand corrected and apologize for posting tabloid BS. Since I don't read at the mirror I'm sure I read it here on CL but I will try to find it for you. I know on this case you have a strong opinion that the McCann's are innocent and I don't really know. Always know Jay that when I debate a case I don't take things personally and if I disagree with you on something that just means I don't have the same opinion as you do nor do you have the same opinion of mine. JMHO

To Eagle you posted lies on another forum about me and I do not appreciate it. I saw a post in which I felt you were down and I told you on the board that to don't worry about what others think and post away in what you believe. I thought I was encouraging you to not take things so personal and then you have the gall to try to start trouble with me and Jay. That is not right at all. I don't know Jay and I don't know you. I thought that I showed respect to everyone on this forum no matter what their opinions were and when someone doesn't have the same opinion as me I try to listen to their side to see if it fits better into the case of the most probable answer of what happened to Maddy.

One more thing I did think at some point that Jay was being disrespectful and I told her that she didn't want me to get disrespectful with her. After this encounter I saw that Jay wasn't posting much and I thought it was because of me. Since I really didn't have such a strong opinion and Jay did I backed away from the case hoping she would come back if it was me keeping her from this forum. Jay cared alot about this case and I was asked to come read about it and check it out so I felt that Jay should be here and I certainly never meant for her to leave. Eagle evidently because I left you said I was banned for having it out with Jay which was a lie. I have never been banned from CL nor CTV. I also want you to know Eagle that because of the incident with the updates from Odette she stopped updating because you drug her name into something that was not true. I am furious about that because Odette is my best friend. Can you acknowledge a pattern that you are doing Eagle? If this is the way that you are going to act to cause trouble between posters that you don't even know then I hope that you stand down and don't move with us to the new community because from what I have seen that you have done is create trouble between posters and this is unacceptable in my book. You should be ashamed of yourself and if you aren't ashamed please know that I am ashamed for you.

This is all I have to say on the matter!

Forgot to add I did exchange PM's with Jay and asked her to post a response from me to you on that forum and I hope you read it there as well as here. Jay I do appreciate you telling me what was going on and posting my response since I could not. I think you showed your true character to PM me and ask me if I was saying things about you and what was being said about me. I have great respect for you for letting me know this was going on and I hope you do realize how much I appreciate the heads up especially since you thought I was talking bad about you. If I ever have anything bad to say to anyone they are the first to know. So, don't believe lies when it is said Results is talking about you because I promise you you will be the first one to know. Again thank you for the heads up and see ya at the new community....I'm so excited!

Everyone please have a wonderful and safe Holiday because I want to see my neighbors at our new neighborhood in 2008! God bless you all! Merry Christmas!

[Babootje]

Yesterday in an article in This is London (Evening Standard) in an interview the mayor of Praia da Luz stated that Kate and Gerry McCann in his opinion were guilty of abandoning their children the evening of May 3. And that the PJ was wrong to let them leave Portugal, because the crime happened in Portugal and they are arguido's at least of abandoning Madeleine and the twins.

In an article today in Daily Express, the mother of Robert Murat accuses Methodo 3, the private detectives of the McCanns of bribing witnesses to change their stories. Furthermore she states that the friends of the McCanns that saw Robert Murat around the appartment that night are "extremely mistaken" for she knows he was with her all evening.
She furthermore states that the lifes of her and her son are devastated although they are completely innocent. The McCanns in fact are at least guilty for abandoning their children.

In a reaction the spokesman of the McCanns states:
“We are not going to get into a row and she is entitled to her own opinion, but Kate and Gerry felt they had done everything possible for their children on May 3 and that they were perfectly safe.
“They feel they did not do anything wrong and had been caring for their children in the best way possible.
“Nobody regrets more than them what actually happened.”
------------------

I still find it shocking that the McCanns repeatedly say that they have done everything possible for their children to be perfectly safe while they didn't even bothered to hire the babysit service the Ocean Club provides in.
I can imagine that you do not think of this to happen, but it happened and as a mother I would - at least now - FEEL guilty I left them alone.

But were they affraid that they would be charged of neglicence? Is that why the tapas 9. tuned up their stories in a way that rised the suspicion of the PJ, Their statements (regular checks on the children) is contradicted by the waiters at the tapas bar who waited their table.
Is that the reason why they, in fact, the McCanns refused to cooporate with the PJ? That they were affraid to be charged wit neglect and tried to cover up?
If that is the case, I can't understand, such egoism. The main thing has to be, to find your child a.s.a.p.
If the McCanns are innocent, I cannot understand their manners after the dissapearance. In short:
Not cooperating with the PJ.
Neglecting the advise of the PJ not to spread any pictures or marks to prevent an abductor to harm Madeleine.

-----------------
Furthermore a special fund set up in a bid to find Madeleine has been used to pay for the services of Barcelona-based Metodo 3.
The firm is being paid £50,000 a month in a six-month contract.

--------
For ca. one mond the agency stated dat they were at the tail of the abductor. Now it is very quit from that direction. Maybe 50.000 pounds a month will not speed up the case.
There is a lot of critism about the way they question witnesses, by showing them one photograph (of Murat) by asking if they have seen this man.

[Babootje]

Originally Posted by Results

I will have to look it up and I don't know if I will find it in time before the closing of CL. .... I also want you to know Eagle that because of the incident with the updates from Odette she stopped updating .....the new community ......... Again thank you for the heads up and see ya at the new community....I'm so excited!

What a shame CL stops, I did not know.
I did ask myself why Odette stopped updating/translating. I regret that because I highly appreciated the service.
Please let me know the url of the new community.
Kind regards

[Seashell]

Originally Posted by Babootje

What a shame CL stops, I did not know.
I did ask myself why Odette stopped updating/translating. I regret that because I highly appreciated the service.
Please let me know the url of the new community.
Kind regards

www.320sycamore.com its opening on the 1st jan. 2008 see you there!

[Eagle1]

Originally Posted by Results

Hey Eagle!

I for one don't care about the personal attacks. I have the right to my opinion and my VERY HONEST OPINION IS they are guilty either way. If she was kidnapped they are responsible. When a Mother feels like her children are being watched you don't leave them alone for who ever is watching your children to have an opportunity to take them. I don't buy their story for that reason. Some one is stalking you but you just go right ahead and leave the children alone? Something not right here. JMHO

I agree with you about this, and can't yet find a post by you that I just received an email notification for. Because of the Christmas rush I'm not posting much, only read one notification, finally, this morning. I may have to print it out and later, much later after Christmas rush, pm it to you along with brief explanation of truth, what was really going on.

We've very soundly defeated nations who "mess with" Americans, and yet, doesn't anyone notice, we tolerate being called stupid, enough to read tabloids, by a rep from one evidently, judging by what all you said, playing us against each other by pm's?


There's actually a TOS that NOBODY can bring anything here from another forum! Does anyone remember?

You're all my witnesses that I've been consistently admiring of both Results and Odette, would not have caused her any discouragement in any way.

Ask yourself, could someone else have been flat out jealous of her and making trouble behind the scenes? I especially was being accused constantly of posting tabloid stuff, and part of my defense was that nobody's doing that, and we've even gotten lazy and been letting Odette do all the work. Whatever you fell for, maybe Riviera did too? Shall we have a New Years Resolution not to believe everything we hear? Meanwhile, a very Merry Christmas and New Year to all.

[Eagle1]

I would have worded this a little better but time had expired so maybe it's okay as is.

Merry Christmas.

[andU]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

I agree with you about this, and can't yet find a post by you that I just received an email notification for. Because of the Christmas rush I'm not posting much, only read one notification, finally, this morning. I may have to print it out and later, much later after Christmas rush, pm it to you along with brief explanation of truth, what was really going on.

We've very soundly defeated nations who "mess with" Americans, and yet, doesn't anyone notice, we tolerate being called stupid, enough to read tabloids, by a rep from one evidently, judging by what all you said, playing us against each other by pm's?


There's actually a TOS that NOBODY can bring anything here from another forum! Does anyone remember?
You're all my witnesses that I've been consistently admiring of both Results and Odette, would not have caused her any discouragement in any way.

Ask yourself, could someone else have been flat out jealous of her and making trouble behind the scenes? I especially was being accused constantly of posting tabloid stuff, and part of my defense was that nobody's doing that, and we've even gotten lazy and been letting Odette do all the work. Whatever you fell for, maybe Riviera did too? Shall we have a New Years Resolution not to believe everything we hear? Meanwhile, a very Merry Christmas and New Year to all.

The part of this that I am addressing is in red (I hope). You are the one who cross posts and carrys grudges from one board to another. Eagle, we are all co-posters; it doesn't matter what country a poster lives in nor what color their skin/hair color/eyes are. I think you have a problem, Eagle.

[Results]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

I agree with you about this, and can't yet find a post by you that I just received an email notification for. Because of the Christmas rush I'm not posting much, only read one notification, finally, this morning. I may have to print it out and later, much later after Christmas rush, pm it to you along with brief explanation of truth, what was really going on.

Results says I seen your post no need to PM with any truth. The truth is in black and white I never wrote a cryptic post in my life.

We've very soundly defeated nations who "mess with" Americans, and yet, doesn't anyone notice, we tolerate being called stupid, enough to read tabloids, by a rep from one evidently, judging by what all you said, playing us against each other by pm's?

Results says you need to reread this sentence. You should be ashamed of this one out of all of them. The US fights racism everyday and our nation is built on the foundation of "IN GOD WE TRUST". So, now Americans should hate anyone that is not American?

There's actually a TOS that NOBODY can bring anything here from another forum! Does anyone remember?

Results says child molestors have to register to the sheriff dept to let the neighborhood know they have a predator in their neighborhood and I say the same things goes for this community. I want to know my neighbor and if you take my name and use it on another forum that I'm not a member of I have the right to defend myself when you accuse me of doing something on CL. Should have posted that post on CL but no you took it to another board therefore it SHOULD NOT BE AGAINST TOS RULES SINCE YOU SAID I WAS BANNED FROM CL FOR 5 DAYS! I should have the right to defend myself of allegations against me on another board if it affects this message board, CL, which it does.

My responses are in bold!