Are her parents capable of such a lie?

[Kitty B]

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....

I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........

Originally Posted by Kitty B

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....
I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........

I think we have to be very careful in judging others simply because they react differently than we might.

When I was in high school, my father suffered a heart attack while my Mom was out of town. It was early in the morning before we left for school. My 2 sisters (one older, one younger) were total basket cases. As my dad lay there unconscious they screamed and cryed and were powerless to do anything. I managed to pick up the phone and call the paramedics who asked "Is he breathing?'. I wasn't sure but followed the operators instructions and administered CPR. When the paramedics arrived they took him to the hospital and left the 3 of us alone. I remember scrambling to make everyone eat breakfast and get dressed so we wouldnt be late for school!

An outside observer may have thought, Wow, she really doesn't care about her father if her priority was getting to school on time! The reason I share this story is to illustrate that everyone has different coping mechanisms. My sisters have always fallen apart during times of crisis whereas I probably appear cold and insensitive. It is not because I have a cold evil heart, I just have a different way of coping.

As I have stated before, if it turns out the McCanns killed their daughter and lied about it, I'll be the first to condemn them. But until some reliable evidence surfaces, they are simply victims of a horrible crime imo.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

I think we have to be very careful in judging others simply because they react differently than we might.

When I was in high school, my father suffered a heart attack while my Mom was out of town. It was early in the morning before we left for school. My 2 sisters (one older, one younger) were total basket cases. As my dad lay there unconscious they screamed and cryed and were powerless to do anything. I managed to pick up the phone and call the paramedics who asked "Is he breathing?'. I wasn't sure but followed the operators instructions and administered CPR. When the paramedics arrived they took him to the hospital and left the 3 of us alone. I remember scrambling to make everyone eat breakfast and get dressed so we wouldnt be late for school!

An outside observer may have thought, Wow, she really doesn't care about her father if her priority was getting to school on time! The reason I share this story is to illustrate that everyone has different coping mechanisms. My sisters have always fallen apart during times of crisis whereas I probably appear cold and insensitive. It is not because I have a cold evil heart, I just have a different way of coping.

As I have stated before, if it turns out the McCanns killed their daughter and lied about it, I'll be the first to condemn them. But until some reliable evidence surfaces, they are simply victims of a horrible crime imo.

I agree. I have always gone straight back to work the day after the funeral of a loved one - which is generally 3 days here. A couple of weeks ago, I was at the funeral of my mother's best friend and her two daughters told us that they'd been signed off work for a month and that the doctor had offered to extend it if they needed. We all have out own ways of coping.

Another article I read today was in a magazine called "Woman's Own". There was an article in it about Kate McCann and the journalist who wrote it had interviewed Kate a month ago - before she became arguida. The journalist wrote of how tears streamed down Kate's face as she spoke of Madeleine and how she was completely exhausted and looked so frail. When they parted, Kate embraced the journlaist and whispered "Go home and hug your children" (or words to that effect). It wasn't a aprticularly newsy article but a touching one.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by Kitty B

It just doesn´t add up........

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Tober

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

I think that what this case needs is a good, experienced detective to step foward and to cut through all the smokescreen the parents are putting up and give us a definitive storyline to believe and stick through, no matter what pesky facts may arise. I hope someone with the experience and expertise will step foward to help us poor dumb posters, who are being beseiged by BS stories leaked to the tabloids, seemingly by the cops. Wait, do I hear an echo, again? JMHO

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Tober

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

That's a bit like saying "Why did a burglar break a window at the back of the house when the front door was unlocked? The answer is to do with visibility.

The patio doors faced onto the pool area where the parents were dining. The forced shutter was at the back or side of the apartments.

[TuscanDreams]

Originally Posted by Tober

And therein lies the red flag. When things don't add up, something is amiss. We have a low-risk victim for a crime, in a low-risk location for a crime of this type (both general and specific location), yet a high-risk offender (the alleged abductor) perpetrating a high-risk crime. These contradictory elements tell us we should be suspicious. Not calling the McCann's liars, just saying at this point there exists some red flag issues that must be resolved. Also, other than the fact that Maddy is missing, there isn't any overt evidence that she was, in fact, abducted. We are essentially taking the McCann's word that she was. Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found. If the flat was left unlatched as the McCann's allege, why would an abductor need to force entry? IMO

Really? Was Maddie a low risk victim? I'd say that she was a target. She was 4, cute as a button and a pedophiles dream. And, holding American stats against another countries stats isn't even close to comparision. Besides cultural norms, other standards must be taken into account and the risk factor needs recalculated.

Most victims will tell you that they thought they were low risk. I thought I was, until I was violently attacked.

Risk is a statistic and Maddie is a child.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Hideki

Jayelles wrote:
"The answer is to do with visibility. The patio doors faced onto the pool area where the parents were dining. The forced shutter was at the back or side of the apartments."

Jayelles, I take it you mean that the patio doors faced in the direction of the restaurant where the McCanns were dining?. It is misleading to say that they were dining "in the pool area" and this may be the origin of erroneous and widely varying restaruant-apartment distance claims (less than 150m, 200m, 40m, 100m, "just metres away", etc) in the news.

I have read that the back faced a road used by all the residents; ie neither front and back were secluded. Why do you suggest that the back was more secluded and thus more likely an entrance point? Are you saying that the patio doors were visible from the pool (something I have never heard) and that many people were at the pool?

Moreover, Tober wrote: "Interestingly, they insist that entry into the flat was forced via the shutters, but police and staff have said no evidence of forced entry was found." So why are the McCanns claiming forced entry, when no such evidence was found? Doesn't this seem like a conveniently concocted reason for "assuming" that an abduction had taken place -- that the shutters were open. BTW, wasn't Gerry seen by Wilkins hanging around those shutters just after 9 PM?

Jayelles, please buttress your point a little bit more.

Sure, I'll buttress for you but I don't think it's at all misleading to describe the central area of the complex as the pool area. We've all seen the photos. Here's how the hotel is described on one website:-

While relaxing by the pool, guests can enjoy salads, barbequed dishes and the fish of the day at the hotel's poolside bar and salad bar.

Now regarding misleading claims of distance. Hideki said:-

Incidentally, the apartment was surely not visible from where the McCanns sat, and it was apparently a 200 meter walk from their table to their apartment.

If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you. Tennis courts are between 70-100ft but let's err on the larger size (approx 35 m). If we use your claim of a 200m distance, that would mean you could fit SIX tennis courts end to end between the tapas bar and the apartment. Here's an aerial photo to help:-

http://bp1.blogger.com/_mXbRBcSh0gs/...n_Club_Eng.gif

Do you think 200m is right?

[cat840]

Originally Posted by Kitty B

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Hideki

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.

And I posted an aerial photo which proves that these reports are wrong. I'm not going to get involved in a pointless debate with you about whether the pool is in the restaurant area of the restaurant is in the pool area. They are clearly side by side.

BTW, it is part of terms and conditions of this forum to provide sources. I have asked you for a couple of sources in posts you have made and I am awaiting your reponses. If you are going to claim something as fact, it is not sufficient to say "this came from news reports". I'm sure the mods will be happy to clarify this for you if you are uncertain.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Hideki

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.

Yes I'm a stickler - which is why I reject your claim of 200m. It's plain to see from the aerial photo that there is no way you could fit six or seven tennis courts end to end between the tapas bar and the apartment. Maybe two at a push. That would make it 200 feet or less - not 200 metres. Some people have gardens longer than 200 ft.

Originally Posted by Hideki

Jayelles wrote:
"If you're a stickler for accuracy, I'd check that if I were you... Do you think 200m is right?"

How about you? Aren't you a stickler for detail on such an important point? As I posted, the 200m figure comes from news reports.

"

Hideki, this statement of yours speaks volumes as to your mindset. The point being made by several posters in many of these threads is that much of what is being reported in the news is FALSE.

Some of us are capable of using critical thinking skills and therefore don't believe everything that is being reported.

Many of these papers also claim that women give birth to martian babies and they even show pictures! I suppose you must believe these reports also. They must be true if its reported in the news.

[andU]

Originally Posted by cat840

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

Originally Posted by Hideki

Indeed much of it is, but you have yet to claim that the specific link I provided includes false information. It details very specifically, with photos and descriptions, that a 120m walk is involved. You and Jayelles are silent about this. Why?

I think you are confused. I was never involved in the discussion about the distance between the bar and the apartment, as I know very little about it.

As an American I acknowledge that leaving children unattended is risky, and I believe illegal in most states. I believe the McCanns have expressed severe regret at having done this and are certainly paying the ultimate price. So in my opinion it doesn't much matter whether they were 120 meters or 120,000 meters away, it was clearly a horrible mistake to leave those children alone. But as has been pointed out time and again, there are cultural differences involved here.

I just find it particularly viscious to cruelly add to the suffering of the family of an abducted child. Many parents have made mistakes and have had their children abducted and killed as a result. I personally would never dream of exacerbating their suffereing by constantly pointing out that they could have prevented it. But perhaps criticism of people in despair gives you some sadistic pleasure or elevates your own self esteem, in which case I would recommend psychiatric intervention.

Many people criticize rape victims since they 'shouldn't have been walking alone or wearing provocative clothing'. This is called blaming the victim and is considered quite cold hearted by most. I suspect you fall into this category in which case I will not even try to reason with you.

Since you are a new member ( ), you may not be aware that there is an "ignore" feature on this site. I will put you on ignore and hopefully you will do the same. Again, welcome to Crime Library.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Hideki

Jayelles wrote:



The aerial photo proves nothing about the distance needed to walk from the restaurant to the apartment. I provided you with a link to a site that describes the 120 meter walk involved.


It is not a pointless debate when "the pool area" is used as a vague reference point to measure distance. Such measurements will give various figures having nothing to do with the distance walked from apartment to restaurant. This is convenient for the McCanns, who would like to downplay that distance. Apply some critical thinking and perhaps you will see that this is quite obvious.



If you are referring to the sedation/Calpol issue I have provided sources on the relevant threads. If, as I hope, you are referring to this thread, you seem to have overlooked the excerpts and link I provided detailing the 120m walk from the apartment to the restaurant. May I assume that "part of terms and conditions of this forum" is to acknowledge when sources are provided?

elvislives wrote:


Indeed much of it is, but you have yet to claim that the specific link I provided includes false information. It details very specifically, with photos and descriptions, that a 120m walk is involved. You and Jayelles are silent about this. Why?


To the contrary, I specifically mentioned that there had been a wide range of distances reported in the press. This is a clear indication that I think some or most of them are way off base. Particularly, the ubiquitous "just metres away" is, shall I say, ludicrous.

Moreover, much of the disinformation in the press has been provided by the McCann team, whose "press releases" are often reported as news.

You seem to be using this "don't bellieve everything" argument in a very one-sided fashion.



To quote you, this remark "speaks volumes as to your mindset". Apparently you think it convincing to to take the position that all opinions differing from your own are based on unreliable reports, and a lack of critical thinking; that your opinions are of course based on reliable sources.

And yet you and Jayelles ignored my evidence that the walk is 120m. You both also fail to provide any source or evidence that the walk is less than this.

I conclude that your argumentation is hollow.

Do let us know why you think the 120m figure for distance is inaccurate, and please provide us with proof that it is less than this. Your posts amount to a claim that this is so -- therefore please abide by the "terms and conditions of this forum" and provide the substantiation of your claim.

Otherwise, you are not setting a good example for consistent thought, and critical thinking. JMO

I have posted the proof that 120 metres is inaccurate - the aerial photo which clealy shows the tennis courts. I have explained that a large tennis court is approx 35 metres (it's actually less, but I'm erring on the large size) and it is entirely at the viewer's discretion to decide whether 4-7 tennis courts could fit between the tapas bar and the apartment.

The "pool area" debate is completely pointless because the point I was making when I referred to the pool area had nothing whatsoever to do with distance to the apartment - a point which seem to be escaping you. My point was about visibility. The rear entrance to the apartment is screened off by a wall and trees (as can be seen in the aerial photograph). The patio doors were visible from the pool area where guests (including Maddie's parents and their friends) were sitting. The patio doors would also have been visible to anyone wlking from the bars and restaurants back to the apartment.

Use the tennis courts are a guide to length. There is no way you'd fit 4-7 (dependent on whether you are arguing 120-200 metres) between the tapas bar and the apartment. The path between the two is clearly visible in the aerial photo.

Now I'm sorry, but I will not be engaging in this pointless debate any further.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by andU

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

The parents have been nothing but co-operative. Their spokesperson re-iterated yet again this morning that they would assist with the enwuiry in any way they could,

[JBRnotforgotten]

THIS IS IN ONLY MY OPINION
This case is headed for disaster just like JBR case cause too much efforts focusing on parents while kidnapper is free ....ONLY MY OPIONION

[cat840]

Originally Posted by andU

IMO, you're thinking is wrong. There is little if any proof that the parents of Maddie has done anything to her. Why would they harm only Maddie, they would still have the twins to care for .... Yes, examine the parents, but for evermore, also take into account that it could have been someone else, as well.

What is wrong about my thinking?

If you want to speculate about the guilt of the McCanns please reply to a post that refers to the guilt question.

Did I say that ONLY the parents should be examined? No, I did not.

[andU]

Originally Posted by cat840

What is wrong about my thinking?

If you want to speculate about the guilt of the McCanns please reply to a post that refers to the guilt question.

Did I say that ONLY the parents should be examined? No, I did not.

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong. There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact. It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents. Maddie's parents are not at all wealthy, at least not anymore.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by andU

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong. There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact. It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents. Maddie's parents are not at all wealthy, at least not anymore.

I agree andU. That is how it sounded to me as well cat840. If that wasn't your intention perhaps you could have worded it so it was clearer. JMO

[cat840]

Originally Posted by andU

If you will stop huffing and puffing long enough to notice, I said, "IMO", you're thinking is wrong.

And, what does IMO change. I was asking you what you based your opinion on.

Originally Posted by andU

There has been much speculation in this case already, in fact we have little idea about what is fact.

I'm not speculating about their guilt, I have no clue weather they did t or not. I just say it is possible that human beings lie and manages to maintain it even in cases were parents have killed their own children.

Originally Posted by andU

It sounds as though you have a major problem with wealthy parents.

No, I don't.

But to get back on subject. Of course criminals lie and can sometimes maintains it. Bobby's parents started out to lie. LE believed them for a while. A huge search, country wide was conducted with no result and the investigation turned to focus on the parents. The mother revealed the truth after a while. The truth was that they had tried to stage an abduction scenario at a mall while Bobby infact had been dead for several days already. They hid the body in a lake. Parents do this sometimes, that is a fact.

Originally Posted by cat840

Of course it's possible. Parents do this to their children sometimes we know that for a fact.

Just look at this case.

The parents must be examined in cases like this all cops know that.

The difference is how wealthy and respected the parents are. If the McCanns weren't doctors but instead poor they would not have receives the silk gloves treatment initially but would have been examined more closely right away just like the parents who killed Bobby IMO.

If the Ramseys had been poor that case would have been solved long ago IMO. Unfortunately "innocent until proven guilty" does not always apply but instead "innocent until proven broke". OJ Simpson would not be free today if he was poor IMO.

I think I understood your point, Cat. Sadly the reality is that many child murders are perpetrated by the parents and they must be investigated. I have heard several parents of murdered or abducted children interviewed (innocent ones, like Mark Klaas, John Walsh, the Van Dams, the Smarts etc, etc) and they say it was the most excruciatingly painful thing they have ever endured. But I agree with you that it has to be done. There are certainly plently of Susan Smith's in the world.

And I used to think there was a racial bias in the court systems in the US (actually I still think their is). But after the OJ trial I became convinced that the bias is based less on race and more on class or financial resources of the defendant. Clearly if OJ was penniless and reliant on public defenders, he would likely be serving a life sentence for double aggravated homocide (and rightly so imo).

That said, I don't think anyone objects that the McCanns were investigated. It would be irresponsible not to investigate them given the statistics on child murders.The criticism imo is NOT that the Portuguese police are investigating the parents, but rather their tactics.

If they were poor, Kate would likely be sitting in a Portuguese jail cell battered and bruised at the hands of the police (just like Leonor Cipriano...a mother whose child vanished under similar circumstances. She turned out to be innocent, but the Portuguese police--the same ones investigating the McCanns- violently brutalized her trying to get a confession).

There have also been numerous false leaks by the police in an apparent attempt to turn public opinion against the McCanns. This is not only illegal but highly unethical and perilous to the investigation. And after Kate revealed that they confiscated her bible to search for clues, she was threatened with a two year prison sentence for revealing details of the investigation . So I for one have NO problem with the PJ investigating these parents, but their tactics imo are reprehensible.

[Jayelles]

The McCann's both come from working class backgrounds. Kate in particular has quite a broad accent. Neither of them is at all "posh". They were both kids from hard working families who did well at school and got into good professions.

Some people will always resent success - even when it has been hard-earned.

[cat840]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

The McCann's both come from working class backgrounds. Kate in particular has quite a broad accent. Neither of them is at all "posh". They were both kids from hard working families who did well at school and got into good professions.

Some people will always resent success - even when it has been hard-earned.

As you posted this on a thread about wheater the parent would be capable about lying about what happened if they were guilty and your post does not adress this but instead adresses the status of the McCanns I guess this post was adressed to me as I brought up the status question.

I don't resent success. Good for the McCanns that they managed to learn doctoring.

In my post I voiced my opinion that LE handles people of different status differently, something that makes cases were the suspects are respected citizens such as doctors for example, much harder to solve because of the initial loss of tempo in such investigations. Do such an opinion lead you to believe that I resent success?

Wheater the McCanns come from a poor background or not doesn't change the way they are treated once they have become something else IMO.

[JBRnotforgotten]

In my own opinion it does not matter how much income one is to have
but it is rarely that a low budget family with missing children and murder victims get the chances like those who are well off. THIS IS MY OPINION ONLY

[JBRnotforgotten]

Originally Posted by Kitty B

I really have to ask this.....is it possible that her parents killed her and hid her body, just to throw it in the ocean like yesterday´s trash?

I guess parents that sedate their children on vacation (it is the kid´s vacation too) are capable of anything....but murder?

I have serious problems with most of this story, from the fact that there were 2 2 year olds and a (then) 3 year old alone sleeping in an apartment in Portugal. I live in Norway and we have traveled to both Portugal, Greece, and Spain and never once have we left our 4 children alone. hmmm...

And the sedation. What in the he.. could possibly drive a doctor to do something like that? Hyperactive kids? We all have them at some point or another, I will write how my 8 year old son put it when he heard that on the radio..."kids fall asleep eventually, we don´t need pills for that!" I rest my case on that one.

And the parents. Hmmm....I have a 14 year old, a 12 year old, an 8 year old, and a 3 year old. If any one of those children were taken from me, I would end up in a mental institution, unable to care for myself much less the rest of my family. I would fall APART! I do not think I could function as well as the McCann´s.....

I´m not saying they did it, but I think some infraction of common sense was invoked here. It just doesn´t add up........

IN MY OWN OPINION
None of this adds up just like the JBR case their will be suspicions of the parents until they get a lead then they will focus on the lead well if it goes dead end back to the parents it is all gonna end up wishy washy..
Nothing or Nobody could probably take the despair away from that family , I am sure that they wish they hadnt left them alone . but nobody can go back in time so , I just pray for them to have strength to carry on with this search whatever the outcome may be, and that God continues to watch over little Madeline and return her to her family..

In my opinion I dont think they did it, but I also like with alot of cases have my thoughtful moments from other points of view so I just think the focus for now should be Madeline and Madeline only not parents or bystanders whatever else..IMOP

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by Hideki

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

No need to throw daggers Hedeki. elvislives read the same things I've read regarding Portuguese police brutality and this other case where the woman was beaten in order to get a confession. The articles are all in the news updates thread. I'll post this again in case you missed it.

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

A SENIOR police officer investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.


THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

The senior officer, who heads the Policia Judiciaria in Portimao, the nearest Portuguese town to Praia da Luz from where Madeleine vanished, could appear before the secret hearing as early as next month.

The revelation casts further doubt on the Portuguese police, who have faced increasing criticism about their handling of the McCann case.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_artic...news_id=163071

[cat840]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

No need to throw daggers Hedeki. elvislives read the same things I've read regarding Portuguese police brutality and this other case where the woman was beaten in order to get a confession. The articles are all in the news updates thread. I'll post this again in case you missed it.

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

A SENIOR police officer investigating the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.


THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

The senior officer, who heads the Policia Judiciaria in Portimao, the nearest Portuguese town to Praia da Luz from where Madeleine vanished, could appear before the secret hearing as early as next month.

The revelation casts further doubt on the Portuguese police, who have faced increasing criticism about their handling of the McCann case.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_artic...news_id=163071

But the "turned out to be innocent" part did not come from the article you linked to because this article says

"Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement. She was convicted of murdering her daughter and is now serving a 16-year jail term."

So, could you or elvislives please provide the correct source which says that she "turned out to be innocent".

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by Hideki

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

I don't think you need to threaten anyone either - the articles are all here, all you need to do is ask nicely....

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007
snip
Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

Joana's mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering her after she discovered them having an incestuous relationship. However, Mrs Cipriano claimed she was beaten up in custody under the watch of Mr Amaral and accused the police of setting her up.

She has produced graphic photographs of her face after interrogation which showed heavy bruising around her eyes.

http://tools.ntnews.com.au/rss_artic...news_id=163071

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by cat840

But the "turned out to be innocent" part did not come from the article you linked to because this article says

"Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement. She was convicted of murdering her daughter and is now serving a 16-year jail term."

So, could you or elvislives please provide the correct source which says that she "turned out to be innocent".

Yes, there is that article too - in the news update thread. BRB

[cat840]

Originally Posted by One2Snoop

Yes, there is that article too - in the news update thread. BRB

I have searched the whole news updates thread now but could not find any article the says Cipriano turned out to be innocent. Please point out the post in the news update thread you are referring to.

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by cat840

I have searched the whole news updates thread now but could not find any article the says Cipriano turned out to be innocent. Please point out the post in the news update thread you are referring to.

I never said she was innocent...I think those were elvislives words. Although for the record, my words are, "Framed yes, echos of intimidation regarding Kate McCann" is loud and clear to me, IMO. It appears she hasn't been released, I was under the impression she had been. My mistake. Here's the latest update I could find...

'These cops framed my wife'

By OLIVER HARVEY
Chief Feature Writer
September 08, 2007

THE husband of a Portuguese woman jailed for the murder of her child spoke last night of his fears for Kate McCann.

Leandro Silva said his wife had been set up and he believed police would do the same thing to four-year-old Madeleine’s mother.

He said: “I am worried Kate will be framed for a crime she did not commit, the way it happened to my wife.”

Leandro also demanded that one of the detectives leading the Maddie investigation should be dropped from the case.

Detective Goncalo Amaral has been accused of being involved with beating Leandro’s wife, Leonor Cipriano, during her interrogation over the death of her daughter, Joana, nine.

snip
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2...411009,00.html

Originally Posted by Hideki

elvislives wrote:



She was found guilty without a confession. Please provide a source for this disinformation that she "turned out to be innocent". Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this[/b].

You had better back up such ludicrous claims, or risk losing all credibility.

Controversial past of policeman leading the McCann investigation
By Amol Rajan in Praia da Luz
Published: 11 September 2007
As the Portuguese press continued to round on the McCanns yesterday, newspaper columns remained pointedly silent on a separate investigation into the police officer leading the hunt for Madeleine.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.
Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

Joana's mother and uncle were convicted of murdering and dismembering her after she discovered them having an incestuous relationship. However, Mrs Cipriano claimed she was beaten up in custody under the watch of Mr Amaral and accused the police of setting her up.

She has produced graphic photographs of her face after interrogation which showed heavy bruising around her eyes.

In June, Mr Amaral and his colleagues were charged, three with torture, a fourth with omission of evidence and a fifth withfalsification of documents. It is unclear which offence he was charged with.

Police sources in Portimao, from where the Madeleine McCann investigation is being conducted, refused to comment yesterday but the disquiet surrounding Mr Amaral overseeing such a prominent case has raised questions over his suitability and pitched the British tabloid press against their Portuguese counterparts.

Mr Amaral is widely respected and generally regarded by the Portuguese papers as a man doing a good job in difficult circumstances. But the emergence of Leonor Cipriano's accusations and the serious charges have led to some argue he should not be working on a similar case.

The investigation into Joana's disappearance was marred by the failure to seal off the house in which she was last seen. The police investigating Madeleine's disappearance have also been criticised for allegedly being slack in sealing off the resort where the McCanns had been staying.

Local journalists close to the case say the charges brought against Detective Amaral are inconclusive.



I stand corrected on the innocence of Leonor Ciprano as that is still subject to debate.She of course claims her admission of guilt was coerced thru violence, but that remains to be proven as I believe it is still under investigation. When I read this article that said 'Joana's mother and uncle were convicted..." I must have have misread that as 'Leonor's mother and uncle'. My mistake and apologies. However, I stand by my criticism that beating up suspects is wrong.

Originally Posted by Hideki

Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, [color="red"]because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this

His name is Goncolo Amaral and he was the lead investigator on the McCann case. Feel free to google his name or sift thru the news updates if you'd like additional information.
<*R>

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

My apologies. I just realized how irresponsible a suggestion this was. IF you take my advice use EXTREME caution with these dangerous meds as one of the most common side effects is DEATH...

I'm glad I swallowed my coffee before reading that. The problem with Calpol is that it tastes really nice and children like it. One of my friend's children got hold of a box of Calpol sachets and swallowed 5 of them before her mother caught her. She was about two years old at the time. She was neither drowsy nor required medical attention. My friend called the hospital who checked with the Poisons Bureau and they said she'd need to have swallowed a lot more before she would have required medical treatment.

Originally Posted by Jayelles

I'm glad I swallowed my coffee before reading that. The problem with Calpol is that it tastes really nice and children like it. One of my friend's children got hold of a box of Calpol sachets and swallowed 5 of them before her mother caught her. She was about two years old at the time. She was neither drowsy nor required medical attention. My friend called the hospital who checked with the Poisons Bureau and they said she'd need to have swallowed a lot more before she would have required medical treatment.

When I was a little girl I would often sneak into my parent's medicine cabinet and eat St. Joseph's chewable childrens aspirin. They were these little orange tablets that tasted like candy and I would eat them by the handful. And aspirin is far more dangerous than aceteminophen for children since it's been linked to Reye's Syndrome. This btw was before the days of child proof caps.

But you make an interesting point. If it turns out that Maddie had Calpol in her system (which btw I have yet to see any evidence of in spite of numerous requests for links) but even if she did ingest it, she may have done so on her own volition. My own son at 3 was able to open child proof caps all the time, even those that my husband and I struggled with.

In retrospect its a wonder my parents never noticed all these missing pills. I suppose they should be dipped in boiling oil, tarred and feathered , then burned at the stake for child abuse. I wonder what the statute of limitations is...

Originally Posted by Hideki

once again you should substantiate your wild rumours. What "debate" are you talking about? As far as I know, there was no question about her guilt.

Odette puts a lot of effort into posting all the news updates. You might spend some time reading them so you are better informed.

Maddie McCann cops in torture claim

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

Leonor Cipriano did confess, after almost 48 hours of continuous interrogation but later retracted her statement.

Based on that, I'd say her confession and her guilt is debatable.

Unfortunately you have alleged more than this, and none of your allegations has a basis in fact.

What else have I alleged that was not based on fact? Please enlighten me.

I'm well aware of this man and that case. No need to Google.

Oh I must have been confused since you posted this:

Quote by Hideki: "Also, you cannot possibly have proof that those charged with brutalizing her are now investigating this case, because you cannot even specify which people were charged with this.

After which I provided you the names of those charged with brutalizing her who were indeed the same investigators on the McCann case.

Your own source shows that your allegation is false, and that I was correct in saying that you cannot know which person was charged with roughing up the woman.

"Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz."

Again, Hideki, it would behoove you to read the news updates.The names of the other 4 colleagues are listed there as well. Odette has very graciously put them all in one place for you, so the effort on your part should be minimal.

You have difficulties reading in this regard as well. I simply suggested that by publishing lies and disinformation you will lose credibility. And you have.

OMG, I am devastated and I mean devastated that you don't find me credible (in spite of all the sources I continually provide to you). You have no idea how shattered I am. How will I go on??? I am so depressed, I might go take a fatal overdose of Children's Tylenol....

[Athena]

Originally Posted by elvislives

<snip>
OMG, I am devastated and I mean devastated that you don't find me credible (in spite of all the sources I continually provide to you). You have no idea how shattered I am. How will I go on??? I am so depressed, I might go take a fatal overdose of Children's Tylenol....

Geez Elvis. Got up late today -- and just drinking coffee. Please label your posts with

******WARNING: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOR COFFEE SPLATTERING ON YOUR KEYBOARD*****

Originally Posted by Athena

Geez Elvis. Got up late today -- and just drinking coffee. Please label your posts with

******WARNING: READ AT YOUR OWN RISK. I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR FOR COFFEE SPLATTERING ON YOUR KEYBOARD*****

I am sorry about your keyboard, Athena. My own keyboard is also ruined from all the tears I shed after that verbal assault from Hideki. I wish Bullmoose were here, I need some more crying towels.

p.s. I hope you're not drinking that coffee for "recreational use". If so you better first check in with Hideki in case there are some unknown side effects from that dangerous drug (such as death) that you are unaware of.

[One2Snoop]

Hideki, are you not reading the same articles that have been linked and posted over and over again for you that says Amaral is being investigated regarding this cover-up/beating of Ms Cipriano? I could've sworn I've read those articles here numerous times, in fact I'm reposting them for you just in case you missed them. Please tell me how elvislives is lying when I'm reading the exact same thing he/she is reading? Does that make me a liar too?

Are you here to just argue or to help find Maddie? I certainly hope its the latter.

Despite the recent furore surrounding Kate and Gerry McCann being made suspects in their daughter's disappearance, Goncalo Amaral – head of the Policia Judiciara's investigation – has himself been charged over the alleged assault of a woman whose daughter disappeared in similar circumstances to Madeleine three years ago.

Earlier this year, Mr Amaral and four colleagues were made suspects ( arguidos) in the beating of Leonor Cipriano during an interrogation following the disappearance of her daughter Joana, who vanished from a village seven miles from Praia da Luz.

another one....

The Daily Telegraph

17 September 2007

THE senior detective jointly in charge of the investigation into the Madeleine McCann disappearance is to face a criminal hearing into an alleged cover-up involving another missing girl.

Chief Inspector Goncalo Amaral has been accused of concealing evidence that the mother of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano, who disappeared in the Algarve three years ago, was tortured by police into confessing she had killed her daughter.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

I am sorry about your keyboard, Athena. My own keyboard is also ruined from all the tears I shed after that verbal assault from Hideki. I wish Bullmoose were here, I need some more crying towels.

p.s. I hope you're not drinking that coffee for "recreational use". If so you better first check in with Hideki in case there are some unknown side effects from that dangerous drug (such as death) that you are unaware of.

Coffee can kill? Eek. I'd better seek help for my 3 cups a day "habit".