Red Flags

[Tober]

Red flags are suspicions. Suspicions are not evidence of guilt, but they do tell investigators where to look for evidence. Let's discuss the red flags in this case concerning Kate and Gerry McCann. IMO

[Tober]

Going by the McCann's version of events, the alleged crime (abduction) took place between 9:05 and 10 p.m. This would be our "starting point" for the crime. However, if the children were sedated (there is supporting evidence that they may have been), then two dynamics change: 1) The crime may not be abduction; and 2) The assumed starting point for the crime may be wrong, it may have taken place earlier. IMO

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by Tober

Going by the McCann's version of events, the alleged crime (abduction) took place between 9:05 and 10 p.m. This would be our "starting point" for the crime. However, if the children were sedated (there is supporting evidence that they may have been), then two dynamics change: 1) The crime may not be abduction; and 2) The assumed starting point for the crime may be wrong, it may have taken place earlier. IMO

What is the supporting evidence?

[TuscanDreams]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

What is the supporting evidence?

There isn't any, IMO.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

What is the supporting evidence?

Supporting evidence that the McCann children may have been sedated on the night in question: 1) The observed condition of the children after LE arrival. With all of the commotion they didn't awake, even when carried out; 2) Their sister had just been abducted (allegedly), which means an intruder entered the flat and was in the presence of those children, yet their parents didn't awaken them to be positive they were allright and nothing was done to them; 3) When Kate went back to the restaurant to inform the others, she left the children alone where she assumes Maddy was just abducted from; 4) There are reports that police found a syringe with a particular medication in the flat; 5) There are reports that Gerry has admitted they sedated the kids. - Were the children not awakened because they couldn't be, due to the level of sedation? IMO

[dallasvic]

There is no evedience or her parents would be in jail.They would not have had their passporsts or been able to leave.

[Jayelles]

There is so much speculation and misinformation being posted that I simply don't have the energy to debate it.

Re Kate leaving the twins to run back to the company and raise the alarm.....The flat was very close to the tapas bar. If anyone is in doubt about how far away it is, then look at one of the many aerial photos of the complex which have been posted on the web. In the aerial photos, you can see the tennis courts. A tennis court is approximately 100 feet long - approximately 35 paces for a man. Then compare the distance between the tapas bar and the flat with the length of the tennis court and it will give you some idea of just how close they were. The pool isn't large. The pools in these holiday resort hotels are really just splash pools for kids to have fun in.

Wild speculation at this stage isn't helpful IMO. I've seen suggestions that Maddie had been abused because she looks sad in my avatar! My avatar doesn't even show her whole face. I only see a photo of a child who isn't smiling for the camera and the reason that particular photo was published was BECAUSE she wasn't smiling and you could see her eye "flash" more clearly than if she'd crinkled up her eyes to smile.

The only red flags I see so far are in the way the police are handling the investigation.

[Tober]

Does the McCann's story on the night in question raise a red flag? Does the story sound genuine, or like a work? A red flag might be raised due to the contradictory behavioral patterns, i.e. we want to go party so we'll leave the kids alone, yet we'll go and check on them every half hour; we'll consume a good amount of wine, yet we'll certainly remember to check the kids on time; we'll leave the kids alone, yet we won't lock the door. If their story is a work, it does a few things for them: 1) Presents them with an alibi, i.e. we were at dinner with witnesses when something bad happened to Maddy, therefore we couldn't have had anything to do with it; 2) Provides an opportunity for an intruder to have entered the flat, i.e. we weren't watching the kids, that's when she was taken. We left the door and windows unlocked, that's how the intruder got in; 3) We checked on the kids, Maddy was there, all was fine. Kate does the last check, Maddy is gone, therefore she was abducted. The crime can't be anything but abduction. IMO

[jadensmokes]

IMO, the only red flags are those raised by PJ. Now that they have apparently exhausted any other avenues, they are falling back to the parents as suspects. When there is a doubt, the parents would be the usual primary suspects, but it has taken them 4 months to reach this point? And, I do not trust DNA collected from 1 month after Madeleine went missing. How tainted could that be? Also, there have been claims that the DNA was not a 100% match, so it could be DNA for the bio siblings, could it not?

[dallasvic]

The only red flags. The police do not know what they are doing and had hit a brick wall and needed a escape goat. BIG RED FLAG!!!

[Athena]

If the McCanns had anything to do with this it does remain to be seen and I too have questions re: sedating the children. If a syringe was found in the room it is possible it contained whatever medication was used to sedate the children? Having said that we don't know yet who sedated the children? I've read reports that Gerry has denied that the children were sedated and I've read reports that they admitted it. Right now we are feeding on the media frenzy and don't know yet what is true and what is not so for now I will reserve judgement on the case.

Re: Leaving them alone; personally I do not believe they were close enough where they were able to monitor those children in that room. As a parent I find that the parents were definitely negligent for leaving their children unsupervised. It is unacceptable and even if they did not have anything to do with missing Madeleine; leaving their children alone was simply irresponsible. JMO

Map of resort:

http://tinyurl.com/3ayvwp

Originally Posted by Jayelles

There is so much speculation and misinformation being posted that I simply don't have the energy to debate it.

Re Kate leaving the twins to run back to the company and raise the alarm.....The flat was very close to the tapas bar. If anyone is in doubt about how far away it is, then look at one of the many aerial photos of the complex which have been posted on the web. In the aerial photos, you can see the tennis courts. A tennis court is approximately 100 feet long - approximately 35 paces for a man. Then compare the distance between the tapas bar and the flat with the length of the tennis court and it will give you some idea of just how close they were. The pool isn't large. The pools in these holiday resort hotels are really just splash pools for kids to have fun in.

Wild speculation at this stage isn't helpful IMO. I've seen suggestions that Maddie had been abused because she looks sad in my avatar! My avatar doesn't even show her whole face. I only see a photo of a child who isn't smiling for the camera and the reason that particular photo was published was BECAUSE she wasn't smiling and you could see her eye "flash" more clearly than if she'd crinkled up her eyes to smile.

The only red flags I see so far are in the way the police are handling the investigation.

Now that one is funny! The picture from your avatar is a still frame from a home video. I have seen the video clip which shows Maddie smiling and laughing with what appear to be cousins or friends. At one point she apparently turned her head and was not smiling which allowed a perfect view of the flash in her iris. THAT is why they publicized that particular frame--with the hopes that someone might recognize her from her distinctive iris.

I too am growing weary of all the foolish speculation and misinformation. Many are apparently so dimwitted that if they hear something reported (even in a tabloid) they buy it, hook , line and sinker. It actually terrifies me that there are so many people who are incapable of critical thinking. Considering that we are living in the 21st century in democratic countries, that is a sad commentary indeed.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

Now that one is funny! The picture from your avatar is a still frame from a home video. I have seen the video clip which shows Maddie smiling and laughing with what appear to be cousins or friends. At one point she apparently turned her head and was not smiling which allowed a perfect view of the flash in her iris. THAT is why they publicized that particular frame--with the hopes that someone might recognize her from her distinctive iris.

I too am growing weary of all the foolish speculation and misinformation. Many are apparently so dimwitted that if they hear something reported (even in a tabloid) they buy it, hook , line and sinker. It actually terrifies me that there are so many people who are incapable of critical thinking. Considering that we are living in the 21st century in democratic countries, that is a sad commentary indeed.

I've always refrained from hassling you with medical questions, but I'm curious about her eye. Is that an actual tear in the iris? If so, would it affect her sight?

I've always felt that her distinctive eye was a mixed blessing. On one hand, it would make identifying her more easy, but on the other, I've always felt that an abductor, realising this might be more inclined to harm her.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Athena

If the McCanns had anything to do with this it does remain to be seen and I too have questions re: sedating the children. If a syringe was found in the room it is possible it contained whatever medication was used to sedate the children? Having said that we don't know yet who sedated the children? I've read reports that Gerry has denied that the children were sedated and I've read reports that they admitted it. Right now we are feeding on the media frenzy and don't know yet what is true and what is not so for now I will reserve judgement on the case.

Actually, far from knowing "who" sedated the children, we don't even know that they WERE sedated.

Re: Leaving them alone; personally I do not believe they were close enough where they were able to monitor those children in that room. As a parent I find that the parents were definitely negligent for leaving their children unsupervised. It is unacceptable and even if they did not have anything to do with missing Madeleine; leaving their children alone was simply irresponsible. JMO

Map of resort:

http://tinyurl.com/3ayvwp

It is a fact that Americans see this as terribly negligent. I'm not sure if that's the same as saying that they invited it or deserved it.

It is also a fact that the McCanns were far from alone in doing this and that it is really not at all unusual in Europe for parents to put their children to bed and then go to the hotel/resort restaurant for some Mum and Dad time on holiday - checking on them periodically. My family come from a village where no-one ever locks their doors and I daresay people who live in towns would consider that terribly negligent - perhaps inviting trouble.

Having said this, I am NOT going to get into an argument about it because it's a contentious issue and apparently a cultural one. Kate McCann has expressed how bitterly she regrets doing it now.

BTW, I have always refrained from commenting on the Ramsey/pageant issue because IMO that too is a cultural issue - practiced by some and horrifying to others.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

[...]
It is a fact that Americans see this as terribly negligent. I'm not sure if that's the same as saying that they invited it or deserved it.

It is also a fact that the McCanns were far from alone in doing this and that it is really not at all unusual in Europe for parents to put their children to bed and then go to the hotel/resort restaurant for some Mum and Dad time on holiday - checking on them periodically. My family come from a village where no-one ever locks their doors and I daresay people who live in towns would consider that terribly negligent - perhaps inviting trouble.

Having said this, I am NOT going to get into an argument about it because it's a contentious issue and apparently a cultural one. Kate McCann has expressed how bitterly she regrets doing it now.

BTW, I have always refrained from commenting on the Ramsey/pageant issue because IMO that too is a cultural issue - practiced by some and horrifying to others.

Yes. We have a French friend who did this when she first came here. Although I don't usually get involved n people's parenting decisions we told her she should stop because although probably her kids would be fine; IF anything did happen she'd be in a world of legal trouble.

Originally Posted by Jayelles

I've always refrained from hassling you with medical questions, but I'm curious about her eye. Is that an actual tear in the iris? If so, would it affect her sight?

I've always felt that her distinctive eye was a mixed blessing. On one hand, it would make identifying her more easy, but on the other, I've always felt that an abductor, realising this might be more inclined to harm her.

It is not a tear but a congenital anomaly (an irregularity caused during fetal develpment) called coloboma of the iris. It is almost always benign and causes no interference with vision (unless the 'flash' is not connected with the pupil, in which case a patient might see ghost images or shadows). Maddie's appears connected and tho I have not heard her parents or her doctors comment on this, I would venture a guess that it causes no problems for her at all as that is usually the case.

I've always thought it was a major benefit in the search for her since it is a fairly unusual feature, but after reading your post I agree it is a mixed blessing.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

Yes. We have a French friend who did this when she first came here. Although I don't usually get involved n people's parenting decisions we told her she should stop because although probably her kids would be fine; IF anything did happen she'd be in a world of legal trouble.

When my son was a baby, no-one took a pram into a shop - they all got parked outside the shops. You would go and check periodialy to make sure the baby wasn't yelling, but it wasn't until a baby got snatched from outsie a shop that people started taking the prams into the shops. From time to time we read of children being left at home while the mother goes out clubbing (one of the Yorkshire Ripper's victims famously did this) and I think it's relatively rare fortunately. But when you are on holiday, in a hotel or hotel/apartment complex, you're not expecting your child to be abducted from the room. My principle concerns would be that my child would choke or that there would be a fire. Not that he/she would be abducted. Especially not in one of the Med countries where crimes against children are so rare.

ETA - I actually don't think a Portuguee did this. I think it will have been a tourist who did it.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Actually, far from knowing "who" sedated the children, we don't even know that they WERE sedated.

Hi Jay,
When I first read this I thought "what is she talking about"? It was not typed in the way I meant it. What I meant was even if they were sedated doesn't mean the parents did it.

It is a fact that Americans see this as terribly negligent. I'm not sure if that's the same as saying that they invited it or deserved it.

Here you are misinterpreting my words. I never said they invited or deserved it. I would never say anything like that. I just said it was negligent and irresponsible IMO. I did not realize it was a "cultural" difference so I'll just say as an "American parent"

BTW, I have always refrained from commenting on the Ramsey/pageant issue because IMO that too is a cultural issue - practiced by some and horrifying to others.

I don't think beauty pageants are "cultural" but personal choice. JMO

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by Athena

Hi Jay,
When I first read this I thought "what is she talking about"? It was not typed in the way I meant it. What I meant was even if they were sedated doesn't mean the parents did it.


Here you are misinterpreting my words. I never said they invited or deserved it. I would never say anything like that. I just said it was negligent and irresponsible IMO. I did not realize it was a "cultural" difference so I'll just say as an "American parent"



I don't think beauty pageants are "cultural" but personal choice. JMO

Well I didn't say you did say that they invited it or deserved it, just that I wasn't sure if it was the same thing.

By pageants being "cultural" - are they not more common in the South? In which case could that not be a cultural thing?

The Americans are not alone in thinking children shouldn't be left alone - the Portuguese think this too. Go to this page and click on the video link to hear a Portuguee discussing the fact that the Brits and Dutch often leave their children asleep while they go to the bar or restaurant (it's a short video and he is near the end:-

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...284044,00.html

I think the McCanns genuinely thought their children would be safe. We don't expect someone to enter our property and steal our children - especially not in a busy and reputedly safe resort where there would be plenty of people milling around - even at that time of the evening.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Well I didn't say you did say that they invited it or deserved it, just that I wasn't sure if it was the same thing.

By pageants being "cultural" - are they not more common in the South? In which case could that not be a cultural thing?

The Americans are not alone in thinking children shouldn't be left alone - the Portuguese think this too. Go to this page and click on the video link to hear a Portuguee discussing the fact that the Brits and Dutch often leave their children asleep while they go to the bar or restaurant (it's a short video and he is near the end:-

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...284044,00.html

I think the McCanns genuinely thought their children would be safe. We don't expect someone to enter our property and steal our children - especially not in a busy and reputedly safe resort where there would be plenty of people milling around - even at that time of the evening.

Beauty pageants are held in almost if not every state in the US so I don't know that I would call it "cultural" as opposed to more prevalent in the South?

Thanks for the other link. I'm sure the McCanns, if they had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance, did not think like that. Apparently the other parents with them did as well. It's just unusual for me as an American with all the kooks worldwide to accept that it's not irresponsible so I accept that it may be due to cultural differences now that I understand that. However, after this case, perhaps it won't be.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

It is not a tear but a congenital anomaly (an irregularity caused during fetal develpment) called coloboma of the iris. It is almost always benign and causes no interference with vision (unless the 'flash' is not connected with the pupil, in which case a patient might see ghost images or shadows). Maddie's appears connected and tho I have not heard her parents or her doctors comment on this, I would venture a guess that it causes no problems for her at all as that is usually the case.

I've always thought it was a major benefit in the search for her since it is a fairly unusual feature, but after reading your post I agree it is a mixed blessing.

Thanks for the explanation. I'd never seen anything like it before. I have a friend who has two odd coloured eyes (one brown and one blue) though! I've seen this in other people too.

[andU]

While leaving one's children isn'a a practice condoned here in the US, I had assumed it was a cultural practice there. I certainly won't judge these parents. I, at this point, have little belief in what is being made public because of the laws in Portugal we can't be sure that anything released is official. I get impatient, wanting more info yet, not sure about believing what is available. I wonder if there are any US news reporters there? Not that they would have any more reliable sources than what is available. It is looking like a long drawn out thing to me.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by andU

While leaving one's children isn'a a practice condoned here in the US, I had assumed it was a cultural practice there. I certainly won't judge these parents. I, at this point, have little belief in what is being made public because of the laws in Portugal we can't be sure that anything released is official. I get impatient, wanting more info yet, not sure about believing what is available. I wonder if there are any US news reporters there? Not that they would have any more reliable sources than what is available. It is looking like a long drawn out thing to me.

Many years ago, my next door neighbour asked me to babysit for her little girl whilst she went to hear her husband playing in a concert but the "babysitting" involved me going in and checking on the baby every half hour. I don't know whether she didn't see any need for someone to sit in her house for a few hours or whether she didn't like to ask me to do this when I had a young baby myself. Her little girl was six months older than my son and he was only weeks old at the time so I'd guess her little girl was under a year old at the time.

I've never done that with my own children although we did use a baby listening service several times on one holiday we took when our older children were aged 3 and 6 months. We liked to go to the shows at this holiday complex and all we had to do was notify the baby listening service manager where we would be. Someone listened at the door of our apartment every half hour or so and if they heard a baby crying, they'd get a message to the parents. It was done in a humorous way. If the parents were at the show, someone would hand the compere a bit of paper and he would read out "baby crying at such and such an apartment" and the audience would all cheer and clap as the parent would stand up and make a hasty exit.

Incidentally, the neighbour I mentioned above had two little girls who are both doctors now and believe it or not, people who knew their family thought the girls were overly protected by the parents! They were always chaperoned to school events and were rarely allowed to stay over at friends' houses! Funny old world eh?

[andU]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Many years ago, my next door neighbour asked me to babysit for her little girl whilst she went to hear her husband playing in a concert but the "babysitting" involved me going in and checking on the baby every half hour. I don't know whether she didn't see any need for someone to sit in her house for a few hours or whether she didn't like to ask me to do this when I had a young baby myself. Her little girl was six months older than my son and he was only weeks old at the time so I'd guess her little girl was under a year old at the time.

I've never done that with my own children although we did use a baby listening service several times on one holiday we took when our older children were aged 3 and 6 months. We liked to go to the shows at this holiday complex and all we had to do was notify the baby listening service manager where we would be. Someone listened at the door of our apartment every half hour or so and if they heard a baby crying, they'd get a message to the parents. It was done in a humorous way. If the parents were at the show, someone would hand the compere a bit of paper and he would read out "baby crying at such and such an apartment" and the audience would all cheer and clap as the parent would stand up and make a hasty exit.

Incidentally, the neighbour I mentioned above had two little girls who are both doctors now and believe it or not, people who knew their family thought the girls were overly protected by the parents! They were always chaperoned to school events and were rarely allowed to stay over at friends' houses! Funny old world eh?

Yes, it is a funny old world! Is a 'holiday' the same to you as a vacation is to we in the US? As I read it sounds as though it may be but I fear assumption of anything.

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by andU

Yes, it is a funny old world! Is a 'holiday' the same to you as a vacation is to we in the US? As I read it sounds as though it may be but I fear assumption of anything.

yes - holiday = vacation. Sorry, I usually remember to say vacation because I know you tend to use holiday for Christmas etc.

[andU]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

yes - holiday = vacation. Sorry, I usually remember to say vacation because I know you tend to use holiday for Christmas etc.

Thank you. No apology needed, though.

[Mysteri]

Originally Posted by Tober

Supporting evidence that the McCann children may have been sedated on the night in question: 1) The observed condition of the children after LE arrival. With all of the commotion they didn't awake, even when carried out; 2) Their sister had just been abducted (allegedly), which means an intruder entered the flat and was in the presence of those children, yet their parents didn't awaken them to be positive they were allright and nothing was done to them; 3) When Kate went back to the restaurant to inform the others, she left the children alone where she assumes Maddy was just abducted from; 4) There are reports that police found a syringe with a particular medication in the flat; 5) There are reports that Gerry has admitted they sedated the kids. - Were the children not awakened because they couldn't be, due to the level of sedation? IMO

Leaving rhe twins alone AGAIN gives the whole show away. SHE knew they would be safe because she knew who 'abducted' Madeleine.

It's a wonder she wasn't arrested at the time !!


imo

[One2Snoop]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

There is so much speculation and misinformation being posted that I simply don't have the energy to debate it.

Re Kate leaving the twins to run back to the company and raise the alarm.....The flat was very close to the tapas bar. If anyone is in doubt about how far away it is, then look at one of the many aerial photos of the complex which have been posted on the web. In the aerial photos, you can see the tennis courts. A tennis court is approximately 100 feet long - approximately 35 paces for a man. Then compare the distance between the tapas bar and the flat with the length of the tennis court and it will give you some idea of just how close they were. The pool isn't large. The pools in these holiday resort hotels are really just splash pools for kids to have fun in.

Wild speculation at this stage isn't helpful IMO. I've seen suggestions that Maddie had been abused because she looks sad in my avatar! My avatar doesn't even show her whole face. I only see a photo of a child who isn't smiling for the camera and the reason that particular photo was published was BECAUSE she wasn't smiling and you could see her eye "flash" more clearly than if she'd crinkled up her eyes to smile.

The only red flags I see so far are in the way the police are handling the investigation.

When this topic was first started I couldn't think of a thing to add to it. You hit the nail on the head Jayelles. ITA.

[Mysteri]

Thus far there are too many questions in this case.
The hair in the boot of the car along with body fluids.
In any culture it's not intelligent nor loving to leave three such young children alone, night after night. I am glad the mother has expressed regret.

It's sad IF she and the father are innocent that they have had to endure critique when they are already so fragile and yet it's inevitable in such a case where the victim is so very young and the parents seen as her protectors, 24/7, particularly in a foreign country when the children didn't know the language.

Yet in many parts of the world , it isn't simply 'cultural' but in fact against the law to leave children under 12 or 14 unsupervised.

Two doctors could have surely afforded an au pair or nanny for their children. There's no excuse for them being left alone, ever. No matter how close the tapas bar was....it wasn't made of glass and neither was the room where the children slept under possible medication. It may as well have been a mile away , they couldn't check on the children without physically entering the room.

imo

[TuscanDreams]

As far as leaving the kids alone, I wouldn't do it, but my European grandmother sure did. She left my brothers and I alone in Mississippi and thought nothing of it. A friend would call for tea and off she'd go, making sure we had snacks and television to keep us company. Of course, my father wanted to throttle her.

It's a cultural thing, I get that. I don't agree with it, but it's not a red flag to me.

[Tober]

At about 9:30 pm, Dr. Oldfield allegedly went to check on the McCann children. In his first police statement he said he only listened at the door. Since then he has changed that to saying he actually went in and noticed the room to be lighter (because the shutters were opened). Assuming he did check on them but only by listening at the door (as he initially said), some questions arise: 1) Did the McCanns intentionally tell him to only listen at the door, and not to go inside? 2) Was the door really unlocked as the McCanns allege? 3) If the door was unlocked, then why did Dr. Oldfield only listen at the door? 4) Wouldn't it have been easier to simply open the door and look in on the children, if in fact the door was unlocked? 5) Did Dr. Oldfield change his story about his check to support the McCann's version of events? IMO

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Mysteri

Thus far there are too many questions in this case.
The hair in the boot of the car along with body fluids.
In any culture it's not intelligent nor loving to leave three such young children alone, night after night. I am glad the mother has expressed regret.

It's sad IF she and the father are innocent that they have had to endure critique when they are already so fragile and yet it's inevitable in such a case where the victim is so very young and the parents seen as her protectors, 24/7, particularly in a foreign country when the children didn't know the language.

Yet in many parts of the world , it isn't simply 'cultural' but in fact against the law to leave children under 12 or 14 unsupervised.

Two doctors could have surely afforded an au pair or nanny for their children. There's no excuse for them being left alone, ever. No matter how close the tapas bar was....it wasn't made of glass and neither was the room where the children slept under possible medication. It may as well have been a mile away , they couldn't check on the children without physically entering the room.

imo

We really do not know if the fluids or hair were actually found in the trunk of the car; IMO, it smells a lot like horseplop. We certainly are hearing a lot of planted stories that are extremely prejudicial towards Madeline's parents if true; the diaries might just as well have been released straight to the media as to the authorities. Why the obvious attempt to reshape public opinion agaist the McCanns? It sounds like fraud to me, an attempt to frame the parents. JMHO

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by TuscanDreams

As far as leaving the kids alone, I wouldn't do it, but my European grandmother sure did. She left my brothers and I alone in Mississippi and thought nothing of it. A friend would call for tea and off she'd go, making sure we had snacks and television to keep us company. Of course, my father wanted to throttle her.

It's a cultural thing, I get that. I don't agree with it, but it's not a red flag to me.

Some people allow their kids out to play/wander the streets at a fairly young age. Others allow them to walk to school on their own at a young age. One would imagine that there is more danger in this than in leaving sleeping children alone in an apartment. When I was little, children went out to play all day and only returned home for meals. The biggest danger was considered to be crossing a main road or going into the field where the bull was kept. Times are constantly changing - but they don't change everywhere at the same time. People who live in countries with a higher crime rate are likely to be more cautious than those who live in safer communities.

I also have to wonder if the people who criticise the McCanns for their actions are perfect parents themselves and have never exposed their child to danger (wittingly or unwittingly).

[TuscanDreams]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

I also have to wonder if the people who criticise the McCanns for their actions are perfect parents themselves and have never exposed their child to danger (wittingly or unwittingly).

Well, I'll be happy to throw this in the mix. I thought I was a great parent and my daughter is a train wreck. I never left her alone, etc. No way do I have a right to judge what others do. That said, I do think leaving the kids alone was an error, a mistake. But hindsight is 20/20 and I think that many kids are probably left alone at the same resort that Maddie was abducted from.

My thing is this: If Maddie hadn't been abducted, leaving her alone with the twins wouldn't be such a big deal. We have no idea of how many kids are left there alone, every night.

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Some people allow their kids out to play/wander the streets at a fairly young age. Others allow them to walk to school on their own at a young age. One would imagine that there is more danger in this than in leaving sleeping children alone in an apartment. When I was little, children went out to play all day and only returned home for meals. The biggest danger was considered to be crossing a main road or going into the field where the bull was kept. Times are constantly changing - but they don't change everywhere at the same time. People who live in countries with a higher crime rate are likely to be more cautious than those who live in safer communities.

I also have to wonder if the people who criticise the McCanns for their actions are perfect parents themselves and have never exposed their child to danger (wittingly or unwittingly).

I am sure, Jay, that these holier than thou parents never even blinked until their children were 12-14 years of age. Blinking would be irresponsible and selfish as they might miss something.

Surely they also sleep right beside their children every night since there have been many cases where children have been snatched right from their beds at night with the parents in the house. Obviously these horribly overprotected children never develop a sense of self esteem and need a life time of psychotherapy, but that is a small price to pay to make absolutely certain that they are not abducted.

Originally Posted by TuscanDreams

Well, I'll be happy to throw this in the mix. I thought I was a great parent and my daughter is a train wreck. I never left her alone, etc. No way do I have a right to judge what others do. That said, I do think leaving the kids alone was an error, a mistake. But hindsight is 20/20 and I think that many kids are probably left alone at the same resort that Maddie was abducted from.

My thing is this: If Maddie hadn't been abducted, leaving her alone with the twins wouldn't be such a big deal. We have no idea of how many kids are left there alone, every night.

CLEARLY the McCanns made a bad judgement call, as did John Walsh's wife when she left Adam alone in an arcade so she could shop nearby. Attacking the McCanns for this decision in the midst of their horrid despair is akin to attacking the mother of Elizabeth Smart imo. It was Elizabeth's mother who left the kitchen window open (since she had burned the dinner) which allowed the kidnapper the opportunity to get into the house and abduct Elizabeth.

I think every parent of an abducted child must have tremendous guilt that they werent there to protect their child. To criticize the McCanns in the depths of their despair is just plain cruel imo.

You may as well burn Erin Runion at the stake for allowing her daughter to play in the front yard with no adult supervision. Also, all the children who have been snatched while riding their bikes....How dare their parents allow them to ride a bike outside of the house!! I find all the monday morning quarterbacking to be quite appalling and cold hearted under the circumstances. JMO

[Jayelles]

Originally Posted by elvislives

CLEARLY the McCanns made a bad judgement call, as did John Walsh's wife when she left Adam alone in an arcade so she could shop nearby. Attacking the McCanns for this decision in the midst of their horrid despair is akin to attacking the mother of Elizabeth Smart imo. It was Elizabeth's mother who left the kitchen window open (since she had burned the dinner) which allowed the kidnapper the opportunity to get into the house and abduct Elizabeth.

I think every parent of an abducted child must have tremendous guilt that they werent there to protect their child. To criticize the McCanns in the depths of their despair is just plain cruel imo.

You may as well burn Erin Runion at the stake for allowing her daughter to play in the front yard with no adult supervision. Also, all the children who have been snatched while riding their bikes....How dare their parents allow them to ride a bike outside of the house!! I find all the monday morning quarterbacking to be quite appalling and cold hearted under the circumstances. JMO

Elvis, you know how some cough mixtures say "may cause drowsiness. if affected do not drive or operate machinery"? Is it possible that they contain a sedative similar to that found in sleeping medicines?

If she'd been taking cough medicine in the weeks/months prior to going on holiday, could it be detected in her hair?

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Elvis, you know how some cough mixtures say "may cause drowsiness. if affected do not drive or operate machinery"? Is it possible that they contain a sedative similar to that found in sleeping medicines?

If she'd been taking cough medicine in the weeks/months prior to going on holiday, could it be detected in her hair?

Over the counter sleeping aids here in the States have the very same ingredients as over the counter cough medicenes, IMO. they are an antihistamine. JMHO

Originally Posted by Jayelles

Elvis, you know how some cough mixtures say "may cause drowsiness. if affected do not drive or operate machinery"? Is it possible that they contain a sedative similar to that found in sleeping medicines?

If she'd been taking cough medicine in the weeks/months prior to going on holiday, could it be detected in her hair?

The active ingredient in OTC cough medicines that causes the drowsiness is diphenhydramine hydrochloride. Diphenhydramine is an extremely safe drug as evidenced by the fact that the US FDA allows it to be sold over the counter and specifically labels it as safe for young children. I am not aware of any fatal overdose of this med.

But in response to your question about whether or not it would show up in hair, I do not know. The hair tests that are available today are either a 5 or 7 screen panels which tests for opiates, amphetamines, cannaboids, and other illicit drugs. I am not aware of any hair test that would test for diphenhydramine specifically, but that is because hair tests were developed to detect drugs of abuse. Diphenhydramine is NOT a drug of abuse so there would be no need to develop a hair test for it. But it is possible it could be detected thru specialized tests, but I am not certain. I am at work and will ask someone who should know the true answer. More to follow.

One more point about hair tests is that they can test for the presence of drugs, but not the quantity. I only point this out because I heard it reported that a "lethal dose of sedatives" was found in the hair from the trunk. That is definitely a false report. If sedatives were found in the hair, they cannot determine what dosage was administered.

[Tober]

If the McCanns would leave their children alone, is it reasonable to expect that they'd ALSO leave the doors and windows unlocked? Since the children were being left alone, wouldn't we expect that two intelligent adults would then be sure to lock the doors and windows? Are they only claiming to have left them unlocked so as to allow for an intruder to have been able to enter and abduct Maddy? IMO