What group are you in?

[Luke Davis]

I'm just curious after two years who believes what.

[ortiga]

Well it's 50 50 now, lol

I think you should have included the "ran into someone on the beach" option in the one about "ran away" etc....

[Luke Davis]

Originally Posted by ortiga

Well it's 50 50 now, lol

I think you should have included the "ran into someone on the beach" option in the one about "ran away" etc....

Yes, I would have liked about 10 options but I think this will fit most people roughly. Of course, if someone thinks Satish murdered Natalee, they will just have to explain that.

From what I have seen it comes down to Joran or not. And if Joran, then murder, manslaughter, accident, etc.

I'm not sure who is corrupt and who is inadequate. That might be another poll.

At first, I thought there was a good chance Natalee was alive but I doubt it now.

[Chocoholic]

My choice wasn't up there! lol

I still think she's alive somewhere, until I see proof and evidence to show otherwise.

[cassidy]

I went with the "I'm not convinced". I think there are any number of possibilities of what happened to Natalee. I don't see any proof to back up any of them with absolute certainty.

[HiLife]

I had a hard time deciding between the first and second choice.

I do believe ALE and the government are both corrupt, but I lean more towards the notion that ALE (botched it and were inept) and the government (tried to put an innocent face on themselves for $$$ sake).

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Originally Posted by HiLife

I had a hard time deciding between the first and second choice.

I do believe ALE and the government are both corrupt, but I lean more towards the notion that ALE (botched it and were inept) and the government (tried to put an innocent face on themselves for $$$ sake).

jmo

There needed to be a choice: "None of the above", IMO. I couldn't cast a vote.

[Luke Davis]

Originally Posted by HiLife

I had a hard time deciding between the first and second choice.

I do believe ALE and the government are both corrupt, but I lean more towards the notion that ALE (botched it and were inept) and the government (tried to put an innocent face on themselves for $$$ sake).

jmo

You can vote for both, if you want. Not sure you can go back and vote again though.

I was trying to figure out the difference there. Some keep talking about Keystone Kops and I can see that. Others go with corruption and I can see that. But I have a hard time thinking ALE is corrupt and stupid.

Some people might want to vote for 3 and 4 I guess.

In the beginning, I thought it was obvious, J2K kidnaped, raped and murdered Natalee. But then I began to have doubts. The longer it goes on the more I doubt Natalee is alive. But I also doubt J2K can keep a secret either.

[~Phoenix~]

Originally Posted by HiLife

I had a hard time deciding between the first and second choice.

I do believe ALE and the government are both corrupt, but I lean more towards the notion that ALE (botched it and were inept) and the government (tried to put an innocent face on themselves for $$$ sake).

jmo

I also had a hard time deciding between the same two. I think there were at least a couple LE initially (Van der Straaten & Jacobs) that were corrupt/covering up, then AHATA became horrified that they would lose their precious reputation/their personal wealth from tourism and it all ballooned from there.

I do not believe it was premeditated murder, but things got out of hand and one or all three of them caused "something bad" to happen and because of visible and/or forensic evidence of rape or heavy battering, Natalee's body had to disappear, resulting in "no body/no case".

IMO

[fairmaiden]

Originally Posted by cassidy

I went with the "I'm not convinced". I think there are any number of possibilities of what happened to Natalee. I don't see any proof to back up any of them with absolute certainty.

I'm with you, cassidy. I find it hard to believe I'm waiting for more information, because I wonder if there IS any more information. I believe a few things could have happened also .... she died accidently .... someone else is responsible for her disappearance, etc. I often wonder if the MB kids know more about what happened to her .... did it have anything to do with their "activities" during those 5 days ?? Was there any major drug activity with them ??

I guess I'll always have so many questions, which won't be answered until there is a resolution.

JMO

[HiLife]

Originally Posted by Luke Davis

You can vote for both, if you want. Not sure you can go back and vote again though.

I was trying to figure out the difference there. Some keep talking about Keystone Kops and I can see that. Others go with corruption and I can see that. But I have a hard time thinking ALE is corrupt and stupid.

Some people might want to vote for 3 and 4 I guess.

In the beginning, I thought it was obvious, J2K kidnaped, raped and murdered Natalee. But then I began to have doubts. The longer it goes on the more I doubt Natalee is alive. But I also doubt J2K can keep a secret either.

Darn...I was going to try marking both, but didn't think it would work. I do believe that ALE can be BOTH stupid and corrupt. As far as J2K keeping a secret, the Kalpoes have been very wise in keeping their mouths shut. We unfortunately still don't know what they think or what has happened from their perspective. JMO

According to this Diary Entry, Joran doesn't believe Natalee drowned.

4 July 2005

My head is full of mixed up emotions because I don’t know if I have to be angry, sad, laughing or crying. I just don’t know how to act anymore. I know the fact remains that I am the last person to admitt being with Natalee and I pray to god everyday that she did not go for a swim after I had left her at the beach but then they would have found her by now. That area is always full of tourists and the current is towards the beach so if she would have drowned her body would have come to shore.

[HiLife]

Originally Posted by ~Phoenix~

I also had a hard time deciding between the same two. I think there were at least a couple LE initially (Van der Straaten & Jacobs) that were corrupt/covering up, then AHATA became horrified that they would lose their precious reputation/their personal wealth from tourism and it all ballooned from there.

I do not believe it was premeditated murder, but things got out of hand and one or all three of them caused "something bad" to happen and because of visible and/or forensic evidence of rape or heavy battering, Natalee's body had to disappear, resulting in "no body/no case".

IMO

Yes, I was going to suggest this very same option - not intentional/premeditated. I don't think any ENITIRE entity is corrupt. Just a rogue few. You give good reasons above, especially AHATA cover-up.

Without resolution, it is hard to say exactly what I think happened, but to me, the LIES that have never been resolved are of utmost importance.

The LIES refute an "innocent" death. The LIES refute she ran away. The LIES refute someone else did it. The LIES refute she was dropped off somewhere else.

jmo

I voted for #1.

I believe ALE tried to look inept to hide the corruption. Apparently, they knew what to do and how to collect evidence when they arrested John and Jones, but suddenly became the Keystone Kops when it came to collecting evidence and prosecuting J2K. Suddenly, confessions were retracted, inclpatory evidence became exculpatory evidence and obstruction of justice became fatherly advice.

IMO

[julianella]

I voted that I think he knows what happened, but I wanted to say I am not sure he murdered her! I still am thinking she may have died accidentally. I still fault him though for not telling where the body is!

[terrysdoor]

Originally Posted by fairmaiden

I'm with you, cassidy. I find it hard to believe I'm waiting for more information, because I wonder if there IS any more information. I believe a few things could have happened also .... she died accidently .... someone else is responsible for her disappearance, etc. I often wonder if the MB kids know more about what happened to her .... did it have anything to do with their "activities" during those 5 days ?? Was there any major drug activity with them ??

I guess I'll always have so many questions, which won't be answered until there is a resolution.

JMO

Good morning fair ......... I agree with you exactly so many unanswered questions IMO

Originally Posted by julianella

I voted that I think he knows what happened, but I wanted to say I am not sure he murdered her! I still am thinking she may have died accidentally. I still fault him though for not telling where the body is!

Good Morning Julia and Everyone!

I have mixed emotions about a willful murder because of what Deepak said in the polis car (might be paraphrased) "If they find the girl, you'll go to prison for 15 years". It is my understanding 15 years is the sentence for murder in Aruba. There was a time when I truly didn't think it was a willful murder, but a combination of alcohol, date drug, etc, but the more I see and read Joran, the more I believe he is capable of willful murder, if he doesn't get his way. Hiding Natalee's body, in lieu of calling for emergency assistance, is another indicator that Joran wanted Natalee, and all evidence of what he'd done, gone.

IMO

[julianella]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Good Morning Julia and Everyone!

I have mixed emotions about a willful murder because of what Deepak said in the polis car (might be paraphrased) "If they find the girl, you'll go to prison for 15 years". It is my understanding 15 years is the sentence for murder in Aruba. There was a time when I truly didn't think it was a willful murder, but a combination of alcohol, date drug, etc, but the more I see and read Joran, the more I believe he is capable of willful murder, if he doesn't get his way. Hiding Natalee's body, in lieu of calling for emergency assistance, is another indicator that Joran wanted Natalee, and all evidence of what he'd done, gone.

IMO

Maybe it was a crime of passion? maybe if was that he got angry and a crime of rage.. I don't know, I hate to think of a 17 year old (at the time) intentionally killing someone.. BUT with all the lies he is telling, I definitely think he knows what happened! I definitely think he knew where the original spot of the body was, and I do believe he had some help!

He is capable just as anyone of willful murder... I just don't know...

With all these crimes where husbands kill wives, and wives kill husbands, and children kill families and families kill children, I definitely could believe this boy killed Natalee who was pretty much nothing but a booty call to him.... Especially if she decided at the last minute to say no!

[julianella]

Here is the Group I am in

I think Natalee is dead, I think Joran knows how, and when she died. I think he was aware of where a body was. I think Natalee has not been given a fair investigation...ie the changed searches and such. I think there are others involved. I think there are member of the ALE that are corrupt. I believe there is no LE in this world that do not have at least one corrupt member!

[JustMyOpinion]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Good Morning Julia and Everyone!

I have mixed emotions about a willful murder because of what Deepak said in the polis car (might be paraphrased) "If they find the girl, you'll go to prison for 15 years". It is my understanding 15 years is the sentence for murder in Aruba. There was a time when I truly didn't think it was a willful murder, but a combination of alcohol, date drug, etc, but the more I see and read Joran, the more I believe he is capable of willful murder, if he doesn't get his way. Hiding Natalee's body, in lieu of calling for emergency assistance, is another indicator that Joran wanted Natalee, and all evidence of what he'd done, gone.

IMO

I agree with you, Hey Paula.

Originally Posted by JustMyOpinion

I agree with you, Hey Paula.

Hi JMO!

That horrible thing Joran said in his native language recently (f that b) is further evidence, IMO, that it was willful. Who could/would say something like that if this was truly an accident?

The more Joran talks and emotes, the more he convinces me he willfully murdered Natalee.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Hi JMO!

That horrible thing Joran said in his native language recently (f that b) is further evidence, IMO, that it was willful. Who could/would say something like that if this was truly an accident?

The more Joran talks and emotes, the more he convinces me he willfully murdered Natalee.

IMO

I'm in complete agreement!

[ortiga]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Hi JMO!

That horrible thing Joran said in his native language recently (f that b) is further evidence, IMO, that it was willful. Who could/would say something like that if this was truly an accident?

The more Joran talks and emotes, the more he convinces me he willfully murdered Natalee.

IMO

The common slang expression that he allegedly used was crude and offensive, but was not even in the ballpark with the mother calling the boys kidnappers, gangrapists and murderers, horrid charges all without any proof.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

Just heard an announcement Amber Frey will be opening a massage parlor in Clovis today, where she lives with her husband and two children.

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2007/...ap3870271.html

I knew everyone wanted to know this.

Originally Posted by ortiga

The common slang expression that he used was crude and offensive, but was not even in the ballpark with the mother calling the boys kidnappers, gangrapists and murderers, horrid charges all without any proof.

IMO

Neither you, nor I, have any idea of the amount of "proof", short of a videotape, Beth has that J2K had, in fact, gang raped Natalee. The confessions, later retracted, and statements made in the polis car, are indeed evidence of this, not to mention all the lies, and the suspected charges under which ALE arrested them.

I firmly believe Greta, having been on that Island with Beth, which included reviewing Beth's notes and corroborating them through various sources, interviews Greta conducted while on the Island, including the one in the vdS home, convinced Greta that indeed Beth was correct.

IMO

[ortiga]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Neither you, nor I, have any idea of the amount of "proof", short of a videotape, Beth has that J2K had, in fact, gang raped Natalee. The confessions, later retracted, and statements made in the polis car, are indeed evidence of this, not to mention all the lies, and the suspected charges under which ALE arrested them.

I firmly believe Greta, having been on that Island with Beth, which included reviewing Beth's notes and corroborating them through various sources, interviews Greta conducted while on the Island, including the one in the vdS home, convinced Greta that indeed Beth was correct.

IMO

What mother of a potential victim would withhold "proof" for more than 2 years? Has she turned her evidence over to ALE and the FBI?

Greta said that she was inclined to believe Joran; she reported that her staff heard "No she didn't" on the Dr. Phil tape; and Greta said that something must have happened to Natalee after she stayed on the beach. IIRC

IMO

Originally Posted by ortiga

What mother of a potential victim would withhold "proof" for more than 2 years? Has she turned her evidence over to ALE and the FBI?

Greta said that she was inclined to believe Joran; she reported that her staff heard "No she didn't" on the Dr. Phil tape; and Greta said that something must have happened to Natalee after she stayed on the beach. IIRC

IMO

Beth's "proof" is meaningless if ALE isn't willing to prosecute those they know are responsible. Besides, Beth cannot disclose all she knows until/unless the "investigation" has been officially closed. Perhaps they will never close it for fear of what might come out, including the FBI file.

Despite what she said, I don't believe, for an instant, that Greta believed what Joran said in those interviews. Her panel, save Geoffrey Feiger, all changed their tune after Tacopina threatened to sue everyone. Greta is very convincing, as evidenced by she revealed she agreed with SP's verdict, after having advocated for the defense until the eleventh hour.

IMO

[ortiga]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Beth's "proof" is meaningless if ALE isn't willing to prosecute those they know are responsible. Besides, Beth cannot disclose all she knows until/unless the "investigation" has been officially closed. Perhaps they will never close it for fear of what might come out, including the FBI file.

Despite what she said, I don't believe, for an instant, that Greta believed what Joran said in those interviews. Her panel, save Geoffrey Feiger, all changed their tune after Tacopina threatened to sue everyone. Greta is very convincing, as evidenced by she revealed she agreed with SP's verdict, after having advocated for the defense until the eleventh hour.

IMO

You said "I firmly believe Greta, having been on that Island with Beth, which included reviewing Beth's notes and corroborating them through various sources, interviews Greta conducted while on the Island, including the one in the vdS home, convinced Greta that indeed Beth was correct. "

However, the things that Greta said publicly on her program are not consistent with your claim that Greta is convinced that Beth was correct.

In fact, she said just the opposite.

So are you implying that Greta was lying on her show? That she is really convinced that Beth's charges are correct, but she decided to lie to her audience?

Why would she do that?

IMO

[HiLife]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Beth's "proof" is meaningless if ALE isn't willing to prosecute those they know are responsible. Besides, Beth cannot disclose all she knows until/unless the "investigation" has been officially closed. Perhaps they will never close it for fear of what might come out, including the FBI file.

Despite what she said, I don't believe, for an instant, that Greta believed what Joran said in those interviews. Her panel, save Geoffrey Feiger, all changed their tune after Tacopina threatened to sue everyone. Greta is very convincing, as evidenced by she revealed she agreed with SP's verdict, after having advocated for the defense until the eleventh hour.

IMO

What I believe is that Greta, always knowing which side her bread is buttered on, made the "inclined to believe Joran" statement, in order to entice the Kalpoes into doing an interview with her, too.

Greta was blatantly opportunistic in her "defense" against SP (remember that older guy she would constantly spar with? Forget his name? She later began a CNN show with him and then he left? Just like Vinnie Politan and Lisa Bloom type of deal).

IIRC, Greta has later made comments about Joran in some promos, excited that Aruba might have "found something" on J2K in a few of Aruba's latest efforts at closing this case.

jmo

Originally Posted by HiLife

What I believe is that Greta, always knowing which side her bread is buttered on, made the "inclined to believe Joran" statement, in order to entice the Kalpoes into doing an interview with her, too.

Greta was blatantly opportunistic in her "defense" against SP (remember that older guy she would constantly spar with? Forget his name? She later began a CNN show with him and then he left? Just like Vinnie Politan and Lisa Bloom type of deal).

IIRC, Greta has later made comments about Joran in some promos, excited that Aruba might have "found something" on J2K in a few of Aruba's latest efforts at closing this case.

jmo

I agree with your assessment of Greta!

Are you referring to Roger Cossack when she took the Def side for OJ Simpson and RC took the Pros' side? They hosted a show together on CNN during the trial, and I couldn't stand listening to her voice and defense of that double-murderer.

But, I stand firm in my belief that just as she convincingly advocated for the Def in Scott Peterson's case, but later revealed she personally agreed with the verdict, I believe Greta believes J2k, and particularly Joran, is responsible for Natalee's disappearance and demise.

IMO

[HiLife]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

I agree with your assessment of Greta!

Are you referring to Roger Cossack when she took the Def side for OJ Simpson and RC took the Pros' side? They hosted a show together on CNN during the trial, and I couldn't stand listening to her voice and defense of that double-murderer.

But, I stand firm in my belief that just as she convincingly advocated for the Def in Scott Peterson's case, but later revealed she personally agreed with the verdict, I believe Greta believes J2k, and particularly Joran, is responsible for Natalee's disappearance and demise.

IMO

YES! (and Good morning! )

That was his name.....Roger Cossack. Thanks. It was driving me crazy trying to remember.

I agree that if Greta had the gumption to publicly defend SP (public sentiment was largely against him), then anything is else must be easy for her. Getting the Kalpoes on her show would be quite a coup! Probably bring in more viewers than the over-exposed Joran!

Greta's actions after she made the statement are telling as to her belief of J2K guilt.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

Originally Posted by HiLife

YES! (and Good morning! )

That was his name.....Roger Cossack. Thanks. It was driving me crazy trying to remember.

I agree that if Greta had the gumption to publicly defend SP (public sentiment was largely against him), then anything is else must be easy for her. Getting the Kalpoes on her show would be quite a coup! Probably bring in more viewers than the over-exposed Joran!

Greta's actions after she made the statement are telling as to her belief of J2K guilt.

jmo

Your post is interesting, HiLife. I might be mistaken, but I thought you were in the camp which thinks the Kalpoes are smart for keeping quiet ((I agree with this, by the way)). You seem to advocate them appearing on Greta's show though. Just curious .... since they were certainly a part of Joran et al, would you be inclined to believe what they say ??

JMO

[Heyes]

Originally Posted by ~Phoenix~

I also had a hard time deciding between the same two. I think there were at least a couple LE initially (Van der Straaten & Jacobs) that were corrupt/covering up, then AHATA became horrified that they would lose their precious reputation/their personal wealth from tourism and it all ballooned from there.

I do not believe it was premeditated murder, but things got out of hand and one or all three of them caused "something bad" to happen and because of visible and/or forensic evidence of rape or heavy battering, Natalee's body had to disappear, resulting in "no body/no case".

IMO

I agree with ya Pheonix. I think they set out to use, abuse and dump an unsuspecting tourist who was to board a plane the next day. Unfortunatly either by jorans bad temper or the combination of drink, the rape drug and the assault, Natalee died. Then the pimps dad came in and made sure there was no body so his sporter could never be charged in this case.

[Heyes]

Originally Posted by Hey Paula

Hi JMO!

That horrible thing Joran said in his native language recently (f that b) is further evidence, IMO, that it was willful. Who could/would say something like that if this was truly an accident?

The more Joran talks and emotes, the more he convinces me he willfully murdered Natalee.

IMO

I agree, I think he almost wants to tell everyone, to boast how he got away with it. He's one sick sick puppy, imo

[Luke Davis]

Originally Posted by Heyes

I agree, I think he almost wants to tell everyone, to boast how he got away with it. He's one sick sick puppy, imo

That's one reason I doubt his guilt. Two years have past and not a peep from the world's most infamous Lothario/rapist.

[HiLife]

Originally Posted by fairmaiden

Your post is interesting, HiLife. I might be mistaken, but I thought you were in the camp which thinks the Kalpoes are smart for keeping quiet ((I agree with this, by the way)). You seem to advocate them appearing on Greta's show though. Just curious .... since they were certainly a part of Joran et al, would you be inclined to believe what they say ??

JMO

Oh, noooo. You read me right, FM. I still believe the Kalpoes are smart in keeping quiet! I just imagined that if they were to be interviewed by Greta, her ratings would go through the roof (SHE would be the smart one, there!)

Also, yes, it would be smart for THEM to keep quiet....but who could resist watching them being interviewed? Of course, I am just as skeptical of what they would say as I am of Joran, but I would love to watch them as they talk and watch their body language: eye movements, lip licking, excessive water drinking, foot shaking, etc. (I'm sure Bill O'Reilly's Body Language Expert would do a reading, later!)

I would love to hear their take on that fateful night and see how different, or similar, their story is to Joran's.

Well, one can dream.

jmo

[Gaiar]

Im not sure exactly what I believe though the truth is theres a few coincedences that don't seem to up to. Like the Hotels security camera's just so happened not to work the night Natalee vanished. Im wondering maybe someone in the hotel was involved and she was kidnapped which had them kill her due to it becoming botched, or she was sold into the sex slave trade.

This is only my possible take on what occured.

[ArubaSteve]

I was on the island at the time the Holloway Twitties were there. One thing I believe firmly in my heart from first hand experience. If Beth did not take over the investigation from top to bottom this case either would have been solved, or way ahead of where it is today. I blame that on her. If Aruba conducted their own investigation without letting outside influences interfere with their investigation, we again would be ahead in the case. This I blame on Aruba. And to this day there is no evidence that could convict anyone of any crime, in my opinion.

[julianella]

Originally Posted by ArubaSteve

I was on the island at the time the Holloway Twitties were there. One thing I believe firmly in my heart from first hand experience. If Beth did not take over the investigation from top to bottom this case either would have been solved, or way ahead of where it is today. I blame that on her. If Aruba conducted their own investigation without letting outside influences interfere with their investigation, we again would be ahead in the case. This I blame on Aruba. And to this day there is no evidence that could convict anyone of any crime, in my opinion.

Natalee would have been declared dead and The SG's would have been charged... case closed! Those boys would be out there lying to other unsuspecting tourists!

GOOD FOR YOU BETH!!!

[Chocoholic]

Originally Posted by julianella

Natalee would have been declared dead and The SG's would have been charged... case closed! Those boys would be out there lying to other unsuspecting tourists!

GOOD FOR YOU BETH!!!

It's disturbing how much the Aruban legal system is underestimated by some of the posters who aren't familiar with it.

Last I heard if anything about the case has to go before a judge it will be in Curacao. Corruption can no longer be blamed.

[ArubaSteve]

I guess the Aruban jails are empty.