Timelines & Crimelines

[SnarkyCow]

I have read that some people believe the assault started in JonBenet's bedroom. If anyone here feels that way I would greatly appreciate your throughts & opinions as to how it may have started in her bedroom & what evidence shows it may have started there.

The reason I am asking is this: It is hard to shuffle the few things we know about this case into a specific order. We know (approximately) when the Ramseys got home from the Whites, we know JonBenet was viciously murdered in her home during the night/early morning and we know what time Patsy called 911.

Everything in between this time is what keeps us all guessing and, as is obvious, is the information needed to solve this crime. I am just curious about narrowing down where the assault on JonBenet took place - from start to finish. Again it is obvious that if we had this information we'd be a lot closer to solving the murder, but I'm interested in hearing your theories on how and where, in the Ramsey home, the crime against JonBenet started.

If the crime started in JonBenet's bedroom it is my opinion that she ate the pineapple soon after arriving home from the Whites' - for what intruder would start a crime in a child's bedroom, move them to the dining room (without waking anyone) for a refreshing snack and then continue the assault of the child?

If the crime did not start in JonBenet's bedroom how would she have ended up downstairs, eating pineapple with her potential killer? I am speculating here, but wasn't it Nedra Paugh that stated JonBenet loathed being woken up & would have made a fuss? (Please correct me if I have my information wrong).

Also, even with a "surprise visit from Santa" to look forward to how many "zonked out" 6 year olds wake of their own accord in the middle of the night? If JonBenet wasn't able to wake up by herself to use the bathroom when nature called I have a hard time believing she'd wake, on her own accord, for a snack or to get ready for "Santa's Surprise Visit?"

If someone took her from her bed by incapacitating her she wouldn't be able to go eat pineapple as if nothing happened. This brings me back to thinking she ate the pineapple shortly after returning home from the Whites'.

**I realize I've mentioned the pineapple yet again on this thread, but only in the interest of establishing some sort of idea & theory regarding a timeline of when & where the assault started: I'd very much like to know how JonBenet got from her bed, ate the pineapple and end up murdered in the basement without anyone in the home hearing anything.

Also, if Burke was the one who got JonBenet a snack in the middle of the night what does that do to the timeline of events? How could an intruder be totally sure when Burke & JonBenet fell asleep as he/she watched them eat their snack and head back to bed?**

[SnarkyCow]

Originally Posted by whiskey

Your whole theory centers on your idea that she ate the pineapple AFTER she got home. Just because elvislive says it happens that way doesn't mean he is right! The experts disagree on everything in this case!

Okay, a few things. First - I do believe she ate pineapple after she got home from the Whites'. It has nothing to do with Elvis saying it - A LOT of people say it. It's what the evidence shows.

Second - this is like the 3rd thread on which I've seen you pop off about the pineapple. Why don't you try backing up your statements with sources?

Thirdly - IF YOU READ my above post you'll see I was asking for others' opinions & theories regarding the TIMELINE of the crime. I brought up the pineapple in reference to that which I very clearly stated.

[shill]

Originally Posted by SnarkyCow

Okay, a few things. First - I do believe she ate pineapple after she got home from the Whites'. It has nothing to do with Elvis saying it - A LOT of people say it. It's what the evidence shows.

All we know is she was killed 2-3hrs after she ate pineapple.
If she ate it right when she got home, like some would like to believe, then she died around Midnight to 1am.
How many people fall asleep for a few hours and wake up groggy and yet go off the handle over a bed wetting accident and strike someone dead. Usually you just want to go back to bed and are half asleep and placid.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by shill

How many people fall asleep for a few hours and wake up groggy and yet go off the handle over a bed wetting accident and strike someone dead.

How do you know Patsy was asleep prior to JonBenet being killed?

[SnarkyCow]

Originally Posted by shill

All we know is she was killed 2-3hrs after she ate pineapple.
If she ate it right when she got home, like some would like to believe, then she died around Midnight to 1am.
How many people fall asleep for a few hours and wake up groggy and yet go off the handle over a bed wetting accident and strike someone dead. Usually you just want to go back to bed and are half asleep and placid.

My fault for bringing up the pineapple again - sorry, I know there is an entire thread about this very thing. Focusing on the timeline as opposed to the pineapple ~ Where in the home do you believe the attack on JonBenet started? And why?

Tober ~ I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this as well.

Is there any evidence (I cannot remember any at this moment) stating where the investigators/police believe the crime started in the home? Where do you think she was first attacked? Her room? The basement?

Sorry to throw a crap-load of questions at you, but I am very curious about everyones' opinions on this.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by SnarkyCow

I'd very much like to know how JonBenet got from her bed, ate the pineapple and end up murdered in the basement without anyone in the home hearing anything.

I don't think JonBenet went to bed at all that night. She was awake when they got home and consumed the pineapple shortly thereafter (I say that based on the position of the food in her digestive tract that she ate at the White's). Burke or Patsy got the pineapple for her, that's why their fingerprints were on the bowl. Her head injury was inflicted relatively shortly after she consumed the pineapple. I wonder if she was already in the basement and that's where she was bludgeoned in the head? This post is my opinion.

[aussiesheila]

Originally Posted by SnarkyCow

I have read that some people believe the assault started in JonBenet's bedroom. If anyone here feels that way I would greatly appreciate your throughts & opinions as to how it may have started in her bedroom & what evidence shows it may have started there.

The reason I am asking is this: It is hard to shuffle the few things we know about this case into a specific order. We know (approximately) when the Ramseys got home from the Whites, we know JonBenet was viciously murdered in her home during the night/early morning and we know what time Patsy called 911.

Everything in between this time is what keeps us all guessing and, as is obvious, is the information needed to solve this crime. I am just curious about narrowing down where the assault on JonBenet took place - from start to finish. Again it is obvious that if we had this information we'd be a lot closer to solving the murder, but I'm interested in hearing your theories on how and where, in the Ramsey home, the crime against JonBenet started.

If the crime started in JonBenet's bedroom it is my opinion that she ate the pineapple soon after arriving home from the Whites' - for what intruder would start a crime in a child's bedroom, move them to the dining room (without waking anyone) for a refreshing snack and then continue the assault of the child?

If the crime did not start in JonBenet's bedroom how would she have ended up downstairs, eating pineapple with her potential killer? I am speculating here, but wasn't it Nedra Paugh that stated JonBenet loathed being woken up & would have made a fuss? (Please correct me if I have my information wrong).

Also, even with a "surprise visit from Santa" to look forward to how many "zonked out" 6 year olds wake of their own accord in the middle of the night? If JonBenet wasn't able to wake up by herself to use the bathroom when nature called I have a hard time believing she'd wake, on her own accord, for a snack or to get ready for "Santa's Surprise Visit?"

If someone took her from her bed by incapacitating her she wouldn't be able to go eat pineapple as if nothing happened. This brings me back to thinking she ate the pineapple shortly after returning home from the Whites'.

**I realize I've mentioned the pineapple yet again on this thread, but only in the interest of establishing some sort of idea & theory regarding a timeline of when & where the assault started: I'd very much like to know how JonBenet got from her bed, ate the pineapple and end up murdered in the basement without anyone in the home hearing anything.

Also, if Burke was the one who got JonBenet a snack in the middle of the night what does that do to the timeline of events? How could an intruder be totally sure when Burke & JonBenet fell asleep as he/she watched them eat their snack and head back to bed?**

SnarkyCow, I think this is a good idea of yours to start at the beginning, so I'll take the opportunity and post my little bit.

At first I didn't think it started here, I thought it most likely that before Patsy fell asleep in the living room, she had gone upstairs to JonBenet's bedroom and brought her down to the kitchen where Santa was waiting.

But then I read in the Carnes report that fibres from the cord used to make the wrist ties and neck ligature were found in her bed. So assuming this was fact, I adapted my theory and proposed that Santa went up to JonBenet's bedroom once Patsy had fallen asleep in the living room.

I have posted all this before so don't read on if youv'e already heard all this. I think that Santa brought the cord with him as well as a red pen and some little stuffed toy animal the description of which escapes me for the moment, and while he was there with her in her bedroom encouraging her to wake up, he drew a little red heart on the palm of her left hand, whispering all kinds of sweet fantastical nothings in her ear as the part of a 'prepping' ritual for what was to follow. Once she was under his spell, I think he tied the end of one of the cord lengths around her left wrist (also part of the 'prepping') and led her downstairs for what he had promised would be something really exciting.

I think they stopped off in the kitchen, where Santa, whose excitement had given him a bit of a thirst, made himself a cup of tea. While sitting down sipping his tea, I think he pulled a sealed plastic bag containg cut pineapple out of his sack and emptied some of it into a bowl. I think he then took a spoonful of pineapple from the bowl with that large spoon and added 10 mls of a magic potion from a little bottle in his sack, to the spoonful of pineapple, promising JonBenet if she ate the spoonful of pinapple it would give her magical powers like him.

After he had drunk his tea and JonBenet had eaten her morsel of pineapple I think Santa proceeded to lead her down to the basement where he produced from his sack the promised surprise - a little dark haired baby rabbit in a shoebox, which JonBenet was allowed to kneel down on the floor of the boiler room and pat.

While JonBenet was thus occupied I think Santa phoned CG ( the person I think Joe Barnhill had seen the day before walking outside the Ramsey house) who was waiting outside somewhere in an alley behind the house. I think once Santa had told him it was safe to come in, he came in through the kitchen door using FW's key, so he would have been able to unlock the door and leave it open for others to follow. I think Santa then phoned the person who had driven him to the house and who was waiting in his car in the alleyway (CW) and he came in also.

Last to arrive I think, was the boarder from across the street (GM) who I think was waiting outside in amongst the bushes with his new stun gun looking in the basement toilet window, through which I think he was then signalled to come in.

At this point I think the 'prepping' rituals turned really nasty. I think that while JonBenet was in the corner on the floor patting the baby rabbit, one of them quickly strangled it in front of her eyes causing in her a flood of terror upon which she voided her bladder and became submissive to their will. Here is the end of the beginning as I see it, before the start of the horror.

[shill]

Originally Posted by Tober

I don't think JonBenet went to bed at all that night. She was awake when they got home and consumed the pineapple shortly thereafter (I say that based on the position of the food in her digestive tract that she ate at the White's). Burke or Patsy got the pineapple for her, that's why their fingerprints were on the bowl. Her head injury was inflicted relatively shortly after she consumed the pineapple. I wonder if she was already in the basement and that's where she was bludgeoned in the head? This post is my opinion.

You sure about that Tober. Why was she already in the basement?
But aren't you forgetting that she died 2-3 hours after eating the pineapple? That's not "shortly after". Are you sure you don't want to retract this post?

[Tober]

Originally Posted by shill

You sure about that Tober. Why was she already in the basement?
But aren't you forgetting that she died 2-3 hours after eating the pineapple? That's not "shortly after". Are you sure you don't want to retract this post?

I said "I wonder" if she was already in the basement. I said "relatively shortly." She could have consumed the pineapple approximately 1.5 hours before death. This post is my opinion.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by shill

Why was she already in the basement?

I'm considering the possibility that JonBenet was already in the basement when she was bludgeoned in the head. I am of the opinion that the flashlight was the weapon that caused her head injury. I think the person who struck her with it already had it in their hand before she did something to anger or surprise them, and that's when the person struck her. In other words, I don't think the person who struck her became angry with or surprised by her, then picked up the flashlight, and then struck her. I think the person was already holding the flashlight in their hand, then became angry with or surprised by her, and then struck her. This post is my opinion.

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Tober

I'm considering the possibility that JonBenet was already in the basement when she was bludgeoned in the head. I am of the opinion that the flashlight was the weapon that caused her head injury. I think the person who struck her with it already had it in their hand before she did something to anger or surprise them, and that's when the person struck her. In other words, I don't think the person who struck her became angry with or surprised by her, then picked up the flashlight, and then struck her. I think the person was already holding the flashlight in their hand, then became angry with or surprised by her, and then struck her. This post is my opinion.

What length was the flashlight that was found in the kitchen,Tober? What kind of reenactment was done to show how how that flashlight could have caused a fatal skull fracture 8 inches long and 13/4 inches wide. Did the fracture show the same fluting for the lense as is typical on a maglite? You let on that you know all kinds of inside details, surely you must know these things, lrt us share in your vast knowledge. JMHO

[Tober]

Originally Posted by SnarkyCow

Where do you think she was first attacked? Her room? The basement?

I think JonBenet was bludgeoned in the head while in the basement, or very shortly after coming up from the basement. I believe she may have gone down there after consuming the pineapple, which she ate shortly after their arrival home. A scenario I'm considering is this: They get home, JonBenet was awake and asks for a snack. Patsy gets out the bowl of pineapple and places it on the table or hands it to Burke and he places it on the table. Around this time Burke makes and drinks the glass of tea. JonBenet eats what she wants of the pineapple, probably with her fingers. They both go down to the basement, as Burke was actually working on his model down there, and not in the living room. JonBenet was helping him or just watching him, whatever. Some time goes by, it's getting late, they've got to be up early tomorrow. Patsy gets the flashlight and goes down to tell them it's time to go to bed. Burke heads up and goes to his room. For whatever reason, JonBenet and Patsy stay in the basement for a few moments. Perhaps JonBenet was being defiant and didn't want to go to bed, or whatever. She says and/or does something to anger Patsy (who still has the flashlight in hand), and in a moment of blind rage, Patsy strikes her in the head. This post is my opinion.

[shill]

Wow Tober,
You’re actually having an original thought instead of regurgitating ST verbatim.

I believe it was a toy that needed assembly, not a model kit perse.

Some HO scale train cars need to have trucks and hooks put on and take a small amount of assembly. Maybe Burke woke up and went down to the train room to run his newly assembled train car.

[Kor]

I find it unlikely for either of Ramsey to grab their flashlight, which was placed in drawer of bar room then put some batteries in to sneak around their own basement, while their basement had ceiling lights. I believe the purpose of that flashlight was for the killer to find way around the house during darkness, evading being recognized, might as well used to strike on JB’s head too. So why either of Ramsey would needed a flashlight to find way around their own basement with ceiling lights? Also their kids had to go bed early to get up for the Michigan trip, so how come JB’s blanket from her bed was also found on JB’s body? If it was Patsy’s rage, I believe Patsy or John would call 911 or take JB to hospital; they would feel guilty and wanting to do something to help JB instead of staging. From what I have read, parents who killed their children usually confessed base on their rage, mental illness, or accident. Also Patsy was Christian; I learned about people who are Christian usually are programmed to confess to relieve their sins. They are just one of my reasons I find either of Ramsey’s profiles that doesn’t fit to this murder or the staging. JMO

[bullmoose]

I have to agree with you Kor, that IMO the Ramseys simply do not fit into the scenario the Tober presents. These were by all accounts loving parents with no history of violence that Tober presents as wacking Jonbenet in a fit of anger, then they horribly, cruelly and deliberately strangle their child to cover up the blow. In my mind this was a planned murder by whoever is responsible for it, IMO there is no element of a possible accidental blow that was covered over in a bizarre fashion. This was pre-meditated murder, and I do not believe the Ramseys in any way involved,beyond being victims. JMHO

[Sharon]

Originally Posted by bullmoose

I have to agree with you Kor, that IMO the Ramseys simply do not fit into the scenario the Tober presents. These were by all accounts loving parents with no history of violence that Tober presents as wacking Jonbenet in a fit of anger, then they horribly, cruelly and deliberately strangle their child to cover up the blow. In my mind this was a planned murder by whoever is responsible for it, IMO there is no element of a possible accidental blow that was covered over in a bizarre fashion. This was pre-meditated murder, and I do not believe the Ramseys in any way involved,beyond being victims. JMHO

Also, wouldnt it be beyond cruelty to kill your child deliberately on christmas eve? Im not trying to be flippant, but wouldnt this be the one time that everything is done for your kids enjoyment? Werent they planning a knockout present the next day for JBR?

Im just reminding everyone of the timing of the murder. To me it is a time when you really want your kids to be totally happy. In my opinion it would be unfathemable to imagine normal loving parents deliberately murder their girl on Christmas Eve.

And, I believe without evidence of the opposite that she was much loved by her parents. And, short of that, she was P`s pride & joy. I cant imagine P. wanting to kill her beautiful showgirl, let alone her much loved daughter.

Lastly, someone having just fought off cancer would really value life maybe even more than the rest of us. I cant imagine P. wanting to take her daughters life when she had just looked death in the face herself.

This is just my opinion

[LindaA]

Sharon, these are all points we have brought up before. For those who believe PDI or JDI, they can be dismissed very easily. One detail, JBR was killed on Christmas night or early on the 26th, not Christmas Eve.

Kor, I also wondered why the Rs would use a flashlight in their own basement, and why Burke would be down there assembling his toy in the dark. Sorry, Tober, your story just doesn't add up.

Finally, both John and Patsy were/are devoted Christians.

[andU]

I believe it began in JB's bedroom. Perhaps it was someone JB knew or that he won favor by wearing a santa suit. The intruder used the flashlight to move about the house. The surprise turned into terror and death once in the basement where the other perp/perv was waiting for his accomplice and JB. I know my thoughts are sketchy and there isn't much detail. I'm just sharing my thoughts. My first cup of brew is in front of me.
Oh, yeah, I also believe that Christmas was a huge part of the plan, the timing was part of the holiday was involved.

[Tober]

Please point out something in Patsy's life that "indicates" she'd be incapable of lashing out at JonBenet in a moment of anger. And please don't tell me she was a Christian. The Bible is very clear that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. There are wheat (those truly saved) and tares (those who claim to be saved, but aren't, and will end up in hell). The notion that "a parent couldn't have done this" is wishful thinking at best. JonBenet's head blow indicates a domestic incident in which she was bludgeoned in anger. Everything thereafter was staging. She was lovingly wrapped in a blanket, etc. Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

[User615]

According to reports, when the R's got home, JBR was taken straight to bed. PR got her ready to go to sleep, then went to bed herself. Only Burke and JR stayed up to finish working on his model garage. Then JR says he went to bed around 10:30, and PR was already asleep (calling her the "sleep queen"). We do not know if Burke was asleep or not, or whether he woke up JBR. I cannot fathom an intruder coming in and counting on finding a flashlight to use...in fact I cannot fathom one not bringing anything necessary for the crime, including a prewritten ransom note. From everything I have read, everything used was found in the home. For me to believe this was done by an intruder, someone has to "get me out of the house" for suspects.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by User615

According to reports, when the R's got home, JBR was taken straight to bed. PR got her ready to go to sleep, then went to bed herself. Only Burke and JR stayed up to finish working on his model garage. Then JR says he went to bed around 10:30, and PR was already asleep (calling her the "sleep queen"). We do not know if Burke was asleep or not, or whether he woke up JBR. I cannot fathom an intruder coming in and counting on finding a flashlight to use...in fact I cannot fathom one not bringing anything necessary for the crime, including a prewritten ransom note. From everything I have read, everything used was found in the home. For me to believe this was done by an intruder, someone has to "get me out of the house" for suspects.

The duct tape and rope weren't found in the home.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by Tober

[..]. Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

I think anyone who had a connection that could be traced back to the Ramseys would have a reason to make this look like an outsider/pedophile committed the cime.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

I think anyone who had a connection that could be traced back to the Ramseys would have a reason to make this look like an outsider/pedophile committed the cime.

I agree except the difference would be "framing" v "staging" but has the same elements. JMOI

[Kor]

Originally Posted by User615

According to reports, when the R's got home, JBR was taken straight to bed. PR got her ready to go to sleep, then went to bed herself. Only Burke and JR stayed up to finish working on his model garage. Then JR says he went to bed around 10:30, and PR was already asleep (calling her the "sleep queen"). We do not know if Burke was asleep or not, or whether he woke up JBR. I cannot fathom an intruder coming in and counting on finding a flashlight to use...in fact I cannot fathom one not bringing anything necessary for the crime, including a prewritten ransom note. From everything I have read, everything used was found in the home. For me to believe this was done by an intruder, someone has to "get me out of the house" for suspects.

Finding the flashlight is easy if it was the housekeeper, someone in her circle, or an acquaintance to Ramsey and house. During Ramsey’s visiting at Fleet White, intruder had plenty time finding things, even wrote the note. Think about it, how many people hanged around by the bar, where liquors were at, were able to notice a flashlight in one of drawers, tried finding a bottle opener or something, days to months before. I am still vague on whether if the murder was done by a pedophile or vengeance since pedophiles tend to stalk their victims with extremely method thoughts of planning. A fitting sense for an acquaintance to Ramsey rather than stranger, Ramsey planned leaving in morning for their flight to Michigan. So how many knew of Ramsey’s schedules? Their visiting at Fleet White and trip to Michigan? I bet one of them was that intruder & murder, can’t be completely stranger after the note told us in deeper details on how the writer knew the Ramsey very well. IMO

[ralia]

Hi everyone! This is my very first post to your forum and I'd like to share some thoughts.

No matter what the parents' good intentions were the child was a walking provocation for pedophiles.

According to the "piercing scream" allegedly heard by M.Standon between 12-2 from the basement, a scream that according to the accoustics of the house could have been heard from outside but not from the third floor, the child at that point was Not stungunned, Not ducttaped, Not hit on the head.

That tells me the attack didn't occur in her room, bathroom e.t.c. and the bed-wetting theory and rage (mother pushed her against bathtub e.g.) seems higly unlikely. (If she had fallen unconsious upstairs how would she have screamed and heard from the basement?)

She was discovered in full rigor mortis at 1 p.m. ( with an odor of discomposition), so the time frame (death:12-2 and discovery: 1 p.m.) seems to fit.

Assuming she was dead by 2 o'clock and knowing (in general) the rate of digestion ranges between 2-5 hours for the food to reach the small intestines, we can hypothesize she ate the famous pineapple somewhere around 11-12 o'clock. (I lean towards 12 because another witness allegedly stated he saw dim light in the kitchen area that night)

The question is, we have a time gap from 11-12 till 2 a.m. What was she doing all that time? Waiting for Santa's secret visit? Unlikely...She must have been exshausted from all day Christmas activities and excitement. Was she alone in the kitchen area? Her mother said she was afraid to come downstairs alone at night and she couldn't have reached for the bowl by her self. After all, her fingerprints weren't on the bowl... Patsy's and Burke's were...

Why the parents so strongly deny any knowledge of the pineapple thing? One can assume they simply didn't know but finding prints means latent prints (moistured) not smudged (something is mispelled here...)and they have two names on them.Maybe the parents wanted to firmly stick to their original story (hear nothing...see nothing...)and avoid all the unecessary questions (who fed who, for how long e.t.c.) And if a friendly intruder, the sweet Santa, wore gloves and helped with the pineapple, still we would have three presences in the kitcen that night. Poor Burke... He only drank tea...

Any suggestions about the time gap?

My opinion for the night in question is that all the residents of the house have some involvement in this drama, each one participating at some point unintentionally or not, playing a role so significant that in their minds nothing could have been done to udone the inevitable.

That's why in my mind all the evidence is so contradictory.

The note (the most ridiculous specimen of random notes) had the feminine touch in it...Get rested...attache....proper burial... proper salutations...Don't catch a cold...No, that's mine!

On the other hand, my guessing is that a male abused her or STAGED the abuse. What did he use this alleged pervert pedoplile? The first thing he saw on the tray...the paint brush...He didn't come prepared as a proper pedophile should have...With his own sex device, his own sex toys....Oh no! He remembered to bring with him the cord and the already cut duct tape but not the instruments of his pleasure.

Only a man could have improvise the garrotte to strangle her or STAGE the strangulation. I don't think awoman whould have had the guts, for the sake of a cover -up, to sexually abuse her own child and most of all, to improvise the garrotte device. That's a male's touch.

Yes, the Ramseys might have been caring parents. Yes, they might have intented the best for their clildren. But what happened that night was beyond belief and triggered a chain of reactions that have no coming back. IMO, the risked their lives on an unbiquous scenario and got away with it.

[ralia]

Hi everyone! This is my very first post to your forum and I'd like to share some thoughts.

No matter what the parents' good intentions were the child was a walking provocation for pedophiles.

According to the "piercing scream" allegedly heard by M.Standon between 12-2 from the basement, a scream that according to the accoustics of the house could have been heard from outside but not from the third floor, the child at that point was Not stungunned, Not ducttaped, Not hit on the head.

That tells me the attack didn't occur in her room, bathroom e.t.c. and the bed-wetting theory and rage (mother pushed her against bathtub e.g.) seems higly unlikely. (If she had fallen unconsious upstairs how would she have screamed and heard from the basement?)

She was discovered in full rigor mortis at 1 p.m. ( with an odor of discomposition), so the time frame (death:12-2 and discovery: 1 p.m.) seems to fit.

Assuming she was dead by 2 o'clock and knowing (in general) the rate of digestion ranges between 2-5 hours for the food to reach the small intestines, we can hypothesize she ate the famous pineapple somewhere around 11-12 o'clock. (I lean towards 12 because another witness allegedly stated he saw dim light in the kitchen area that night)

The question is, we have a time gap from 11-12 till 2 a.m. What was she doing all that time? Waiting for Santa's secret visit? Unlikely...She must have been exshausted from all day Christmas activities and excitement. Was she alone in the kitchen area? Her mother said she was afraid to come downstairs alone at night and she couldn't have reached for the bowl by her self. After all, her fingerprints weren't on the bowl... Patsy's and Burke's were...

Why the parents so strongly deny any knowledge of the pineapple thing? One can assume they simply didn't know but finding prints means latent prints (moistured) not smudged (something is mispelled here...)and they have two names on them.Maybe the parents wanted to firmly stick to their original story (hear nothing...see nothing...)and avoid all the unecessary questions (who fed who, for how long e.t.c.) And if a friendly intruder, the sweet Santa, wore gloves and helped with the pineapple, still we would have three presences in the kitcen that night. Poor Burke... He only drank tea...

Any suggestions about the time gap?

My opinion for the night in question is that all the residents of the house have some involvement in this drama, each one participating at some point unintentionally or not, playing a role so significant that in their minds nothing could have been done to udone the inevitable.

That's why in my mind all the evidence is so contradictory.

The note (the most ridiculous specimen of random notes) had the feminine touch in it...Get rested...attache....proper burial... proper salutations...Don't catch a cold...No, that's mine!

On the other hand, my guessing is that a male abused her or STAGED the abuse. What did he use this alleged pervert pedoplile? The first thing he saw on the tray...the paint brush...He didn't come prepared as a proper pedophile should have...With his own sex device, his own sex toys....Oh no! He remembered to bring with him the cord and the already cut duct tape but not the instruments of his pleasure.

Only a man could have improvise the garrotte to strangle her or STAGE the strangulation. I don't think awoman whould have had the guts, for the sake of a cover -up, to sexually abuse her own child and most of all, to improvise the garrotte device. That's a male's touch.

Yes, the Ramseys might have been caring parents. Yes, they might have intented the best for their clildren. But what happened that night was beyond belief and triggered a chain of reactions that have no coming back. IMO, the risked their lives on an unbiquous scenario and got away with it.

[Sharon]

Originally Posted by Tober

Please point out something in Patsy's life that "indicates" she'd be incapable of lashing out at JonBenet in a moment of anger. And please don't tell me she was a Christian. The Bible is very clear that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. There are wheat (those truly saved) and tares (those who claim to be saved, but aren't, and will end up in hell). The notion that "a parent couldn't have done this" is wishful thinking at best. JonBenet's head blow indicates a domestic incident in which she was bludgeoned in anger. Everything thereafter was staging. She was lovingly wrapped in a blanket, etc. Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

Really good question.
I personally base my opinion on the info. I have read that the blow could have killed a 300 pound man. Is this info true? If it is, then no way would a parent hit their kid so hard in the head by accident.

I am one of the politically incorrect parents who does hit my kids when they are naughty. And I am pretty strong. But, even in my worst anger, I know I would never cause serious skull cracking etc.
First, you know never to strike a childs head, especially with an object. Parents lashing out would hit around the bottom imo.

Also, I dont consider their religion to be a defence, but not for the resons you mention.

And lastly, their are cases of phsycotic murderers putting blankets over their victims.

[Louisadelmar]

I don't think the phrase "proper burial" has any masculine or feminine connotations. I can't begin to count how many times I have heard it this past week, from men and women, in reference to Anna Nicole Smith.

[Sharon]

Originally Posted by ralia

Hi everyone! This is my very first post to your forum and I'd like to share some thoughts.

Welcome, hope you stay and look forward to your thoughts.
No matter what the parents' good intentions were the child was a walking provocation for pedophiles.

All children are actually provocation for pedophiles.

According to the "piercing scream" allegedly heard by M.Standon between 12-2 from the basement, a scream that according to the accoustics of the house could have been heard from outside but not from the third floor, the child at that point was Not stungunned, Not ducttaped, Not hit on the head.

The scream is not written in stone. The hearer subequently denied hearing the scream and or changed the date.
That tells me the attack didn't occur in her room, bathroom e.t.c. and the bed-wetting theory and rage (mother pushed her against bathtub e.g.) seems higly unlikely. (If she had fallen unconsious upstairs how would she have screamed and heard from the basement?)

She was discovered in full rigor mortis at 1 p.m. ( with an odor of discomposition), so the time frame (death:12-2 and discovery: 1 p.m.) seems to fit.

I believe its more complicated than that as the temp. and her age could have caused excellerated rigor mortis.
Assuming she was dead by 2 o'clock and knowing (in general) the rate of digestion ranges between 2-5 hours for the food to reach the small intestines, we can hypothesize she ate the famous pineapple somewhere around 11-12 o'clock. (I lean towards 12 because another witness allegedly stated he saw dim light in the kitchen area that night)

The question is, we have a time gap from 11-12 till 2 a.m. What was she doing all that time? Waiting for Santa's secret visit? Unlikely...She must have been exshausted from all day Christmas activities and excitement. Was she alone in the kitchen area? Her mother said she was afraid to come downstairs alone at night and she couldn't have reached for the bowl by her self. After all, her fingerprints weren't on the bowl... Patsy's and Burke's were...

Why the parents so strongly deny any knowledge of the pineapple thing? One can assume they simply didn't know but finding prints means latent prints (moistured) not smudged (something is mispelled here...)and they have two names on them.Maybe the parents wanted to firmly stick to their original story (hear nothing...see nothing...)and avoid all the unecessary questions (who fed who, for how long e.t.c.) And if a friendly intruder, the sweet Santa, wore gloves and helped with the pineapple, still we would have three presences in the kitcen that night. Poor Burke... He only drank tea...

Any suggestions about the time gap?

My opinion for the night in question is that all the residents of the house have some involvement in this drama, each one participating at some point unintentionally or not, playing a role so significant that in their minds nothing could have been done to udone the inevitable.

The involement we all have in our own dramas is that we are there when it happens. We participate in our lives, it is called living. We go out, come home, go to sleep etc. I cant see what you are saying here except that they played a role in this drama....yes they were there, it happened to them.

That's why in my mind all the evidence is so contradictory.

The note (the most ridiculous specimen of random notes) had the feminine touch in it...Get rested...attache....proper burial... proper salutations...Don't catch a cold...No, that's mine!

On the other hand, my guessing is that a male abused her or STAGED the abuse. What did he use this alleged pervert pedoplile? The first thing he saw on the tray...the paint brush...He didn't come prepared as a proper pedophile should have...With his own sex device, his own sex toys....Oh no! He remembered to bring with him the cord and the already cut duct tape but not the instruments of his pleasure.

Only a man could have improvise the garrotte to strangle her or STAGE the strangulation. I don't think awoman whould have had the guts, for the sake of a cover -up, to sexually abuse her own child and most of all, to improvise the garrotte device. That's a male's touch.

It seems that the strangulation was real and not staged. I wouldnt want the garrotte used on me for that reason.
Yes, the Ramseys might have been caring parents. Yes, they might have intented the best for their clildren. But what happened that night was beyond belief and triggered a chain of reactions that have no coming back. IMO, the risked their lives on an unbiquous scenario and got away with it.

They didnt get away with it, unless you dont count losing your daughter, your business, your family life, being hounded by the world at large etc.

Infact I would go as far as to say that if they did it....they lived the rest of their lives with punishment.

The above is just my opinion

[rashomon]

[bolding mine]

Originally Posted by ralia

Assuming she was dead by 2 o'clock and knowing (in general) the rate of digestion ranges between 2-5 hours for the food to reach the small intestines, we can hypothesize she ate the famous pineapple somewhere around 11-12 o'clock. (I lean towards 12 because another witness allegedly stated he saw dim light in the kitchen area that night)

I think that was when Patsy wrote the ransom note, with only the maglite providing light in the kitchen because she did not want to put the full lights on. Maybe this is why the maglite was found on the kitchen table.

Why the parents so strongly deny any knowledge of the pineapple thing? One can assume they simply didn't know but finding prints means latent prints (moistured) not smudged (something is mispelled here...)and they have two names on them.Maybe the parents wanted to firmly stick to their original story (hear nothing...see nothing...)and avoid all the unecessary questions (who fed who, for how long e.t.c.)

My thoughts exactly.

My opinion for the night in question is that all the residents of the house have some involvement in this drama, each one participating at some point unintentionally or not, playing a role so significant that in their minds nothing could have been done to udone the inevitable.
That's why in my mind all the evidence is so contradictory.

Very convincing argumentation.

The note (the most ridiculous specimen of random notes) had the feminine touch in it.

Definitely yes imo. The note is rambling, very emotional and addresses John in an extremely personal way toward the end, almost like like an angry wife insulting her husband ... the RN has Patsy written all over it.

Only a man could have improvise the garrotte to strangle her or STAGE the strangulation. I don't think awoman whould have had the guts, for the sake of a cover -up, to sexually abuse her own child and most of all, to improvise the garrotte device. That's a male's touch

But don't forget that this was a staged scene: therefore the person who put the wrist ligatures and garrote around JB's neck may have had exactly this in mind: to make it appear as if a male sexual predator had committed the crime, to point away from herown involvement in JB's death.

I don't think awoman whould have had the guts, for the sake of a cover -up, to sexually abuse her own child and most of all, to improvise the garrotte device. That's a male's touch.

Imo the staging of the scene had nothing to do with guts, but everything ot do with callousness in handling the body. For if Patsy had had guts, she would have turned herself in to the police after realizing hat she had fatally injured her child in a rage attack, and taken full responsibility for her action.
But instead, the coward Patsy wanted to save her hide. To accomplish this, she used JB's dead body to construct a red herring scenario.
This callousness in handling the body points to a sociopathic personality structure lacking empathy toward the victim - it has nothing to do with 'guts'.

The forensic evidence btw confirms Patsy's involvement in the improvisation of the garrote device: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the tray where the paint brushes were kept and on the duct tape which covered JB's mouth.
The whole garrote construction was done very clumsily, pointing miles away from John who had been in the navy and owned a boat, and therefore would have known a thing or two about ropes and knots.

Ralia, welcome to the board - you brought up very interesting points!

[Athena]

I do not believe there were any red fibers found in the paint tray or on the garrotte. Just another teaser by the interrogators to make PR believe they had evidence.

The red fibers from her jacket could have very well been secondary transfer by JR when he removed the duct tape. JMO

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Tober

Please point out something in Patsy's life that "indicates" she'd be incapable of lashing out at JonBenet in a moment of anger. And please don't tell me she was a Christian. The Bible is very clear that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. There are wheat (those truly saved) and tares (those who claim to be saved, but aren't, and will end up in hell). The notion that "a parent couldn't have done this" is wishful thinking at best. JonBenet's head blow indicates a domestic incident in which she was bludgeoned in anger. Everything thereafter was staging. She was lovingly wrapped in a blanket, etc. Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

I thank God you aren't in charge of separating the wheat and the tares, Tober, IMO you'd fry up a lot of wheat. IMO, whether the head blow came first or last, the strangulation of Jonbenet was inhumanly cruel and deliberate, not mere staging, as you state. I do not understand how you can conclude that the scene was staged in such a way as to try to focus attention away from the home and her head injury. To me, anyone responsible for that blow would certainly understand that the injury would be picked up in the inevitable autopsy; I think the scene was staged to throw suspicion onto the Ramseys, which is what happened. JMHO

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by Athena

I do not believe there were any red fibers found in the paint tray or on the garrotte. Just another teaser by the interrogators to make PR believe they had evidence.

The red fibers from her jacket could have very well been secondary transfer by JR when he removed the duct tape. JMO

Athena, I'm a bit confused: in the first part of your post you write that you don't believe fibers from Patsy's jacket were found, and in the second part you theorize as to how they got there???

[Kor]

Originally Posted by ralia

The note (the most ridiculous specimen of random notes) had the feminine touch in it...Get rested...attache....proper burial... proper salutations...Don't catch a cold...No, that's mine!

It not necessary that it was a female who wrote the note; there are males out there with feminine voice, attitudes, behaviors, even touches. John Mark Karr is one of those examples and he is male, at least he was before he want a sex change. During my mom's work trip to southeast, she noticed pedophile males wore some kinds of pink flamingo clothing, with such feminine styles around their wrists, collars, or legs chasing little girls or trying to be attractive for them around downtowns of big cities in Georgia, South Carolina, or Alabama. She even heard them using their feminine voices. Those were also similar things I noticed during my trip to some big cities in Mexico. However, that ransom note and murder of JB could be done by a male pedophile with feminine touches. If it was a vengeance, there were some women possible suspects such as Linda the housekeeper, Santa’s wife, Fleet’s wife, or whomever other women in Boulder that time. IMO

[shill]

Originally Posted by rashomon

The forensic evidence btw confirms Patsy's involvement in the improvisation of the garrote device: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the tray where the paint brushes were kept and on the duct tape which covered JB's mouth.
The whole garrote construction was done very clumsily

IMO Your just flat out wrong about this and you will always have the wrong suspect because you're analogy of the crime scene isn't even close to what really happened, on top of you neglected to mention all the foreign un-matched fibers that point to an intruder found in the same places as Patsy's fibers and many more places then Patsy's fibers and in more quantity.

[bullmoose]

[quote=rashomon;8817482][bolding mine]

I think that was when Patsy wrote the ransom note, with only the maglite providing light in the kitchen because she did not want to put the full lights on. Maybe this is why the maglite was found on the kitchen table.

My thoughts exactly.

Very convincing argumentation.


Definitely yes imo. The note is rambling, very emotional and addresses John in an extremely personal way toward the end, almost like like an angry wife insulting her husband ... the RN has Patsy written all over it.

But don't forget that this was a staged scene: therefore the person who put the wrist ligatures and garrote around JB's neck may have had exactly this in mind: to make it appear as if a male sexual predator had committed the crime, to point away from herown involvement in JB's death.


Imo the staging of the scene had nothing to do with guts, but everything ot do with callousness in handling the body. For if Patsy had had guts, she would have turned herself in to the police after realizing hat she had fatally injured her child in a rage attack, and taken full responsibility for her action.
But instead, the coward Patsy wanted to save her hide. To accomplish this, she used JB's dead body to construct a red herring scenario.
This callousness in handling the body points to a sociopathic personality structure lacking empathy toward the victim - it has nothing to do with 'guts'.

The forensic evidence btw confirms Patsy's involvement in the improvisation of the garrote device: fibers from her jacket were found in the wrappings of the garrote, in the tray where the paint brushes were kept and on the duct tape which covered JB's mouth.
The whole garrote construction was done very clumsily, pointing miles away from John who had been in the navy and owned a boat, and therefore would have known a thing or two about ropes and knots.

Ralia, welcome to the board - you brought up very interesting points![/QUOTE
There is only one thing in your post, Rashoman, that I agree with; the rest IMO is nonsense. You post under the name Rashoman.

[shill]

Originally Posted by Tober

JonBenet's head blow indicates a domestic incident in which she was bludgeoned in anger. Everything thereafter was staging.

Take this to WebSleuths, they love unsubstantiated RDI garbage like this.

She was lovingly wrapped in a blanket, etc.

More RDI garbage. She was laying on a blanket and the edges of it were folded over her to help conceal the body, which worked because Fleet White said he didn't see the body.

Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

Now this is the most unintelligent theory to be conceived in this case. It lacks any logic what so ever and shows how unastute those who believe it really are. Just for posting this thought I have to put you on my "Totally Worthless Opinion List"
Please do us a favor and move to WebSleuths were they eat up your tripe.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

Take this to WebSleuths, they love unsubstantiated RDI garbage like this.More RDI garbage. She was laying on a blanket and the edges of it were folded over her to help conceal the body, which worked because Fleet White said he didn't see the body.
Now this is the most unintelligent theory to be conceived in this case. It lacks any logic what so ever and shows how unastute those who believe it really are. Just for posting this thought I have to put you on my "Totally Worthless Opinion List"
Please do us a favor and move to WebSleuths were they eat up your tripe.

Fleet White also didn't see any white blanket, which would have been easier to see than her body.
The blanket was wrapped around her body like a "pappoose". That indicates care. IMO Why would the killer have a need to cover her to conceal her body? If he intended to collect on the ransom note, he would have taken her body with him.

Just wondering something. I've been reading Dr. Henry Lees book "Cracking More Cases" and in it he states that the arguement FW had with JR while in Atlanta was because FW was, for one, outraged that the Rs were going to appear on CNN. I've read JR state over and over that it was FWs idea for them to go on it. I know I have also read somewhere else that FW objected to it but can't for the life of me recall where. Has anyone else read this? I don't want to take this as a fact unless there was more than one account of it. We all know most books about JB have certain facts wrong.
In this book, there is also mentioned FW being interviewed by the LE and what he told them. This may be out there somewhere already but he did mention seeing the suitcase under the window and that the window was closed. JR alledgedly went in the basement after FW did and stated that the window was open and that he closed it. Someone is not telling the truth here. The officer who did the original search of the house that morning did not see an open window either apparently, as it was not mentioned. The suitcase under the window alone would not be cause for suspicion but an open window with the suitcase under it would be. IMO

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

Fleet White also didn't see any white blanket, which would have been easier to see than her body.
The blanket was wrapped around her body like a "pappoose". That indicates care. IMO Why would the killer have a need to cover her to conceal her body? If he intended to collect on the ransom note, he would have taken her body with him.

Just wondering something. I've been reading Dr. Henry Lees book "Cracking More Cases" and in it he states that the arguement FW had with JR while in Atlanta was because FW was, for one, outraged that the Rs were going to appear on CNN. I've read JR state over and over that it was FWs idea for them to go on it. I know I have also read somewhere else that FW objected to it but can't for the life of me recall where. Has anyone else read this? I don't want to take this as a fact unless there was more than one account of it. We all know most books about JB have certain facts wrong.
In this book, there is also mentioned FW being interviewed by the LE and what he told them. This may be out there somewhere already but he did mention seeing the suitcase under the window and that the window was closed. JR alledgedly went in the basement after FW did and stated that the window was open and that he closed it. Someone is not telling the truth here. The officer who did the original search of the house that morning did not see an open window either apparently, as it was not mentioned. The suitcase under the window alone would not be cause for suspicion but an open window with the suitcase under it would be. IMO

I believe they were both telling the truth as they perceived it; The window if unlatched, was ajar or open, but not wide open; from the pictures I've seen, the window would be swung back towards the ceiling to be wide open, so the window may just have been unlatched, not wide open, they would have to be propped up to stay wide open.Everybody may be, in fact telling the truth, but only the homeowner, JR, noticed the latch. JMHO

[andU]

Originally Posted by Tober

Please point out something in Patsy's life that "indicates" she'd be incapable of lashing out at JonBenet in a moment of anger. And please don't tell me she was a Christian. The Bible is very clear that not everyone who claims to be a Christian, is. There are wheat (those truly saved) and tares (those who claim to be saved, but aren't, and will end up in hell). The notion that "a parent couldn't have done this" is wishful thinking at best. JonBenet's head blow indicates a domestic incident in which she was bludgeoned in anger. Everything thereafter was staging. She was lovingly wrapped in a blanket, etc. Please tell me who, besides someone living in the home, would have the "need" to stage the crime scene to focus attention away from her head injury and away from the home. This post is my opinion.

The theory of an intruder staging has been explained to you repeatedly. You may backtrack and read or continue to refuse to accept the possibility. If you are looking for an auguement you won't get one from me.