The Pineapple Issue

[Tober]

I'm starting this thread so the pineapple can be discussed here, as it tends to be brought up in other threads, interrupting the thought and flow of discussion of those threads.

The undigested pineapple is clear evidence that contradicts information from "primary source" John & Patsy's statements that JonBenet went straight to bed when they got home. This is physical evidence, that has never been adequately explained by the Ramseys.

She didn't eat pineapple at the Whites; it's been shown to be the same pineapple that was in the bowl on the counter. Why would Patsy and John misrepresent the last hours of their daughter's life? Why would they lie about feeding her this pineapple?

[Tober]

IMO, the pineapple represents the first "problem issue" for the intruder theory. It calls into question John's and Patsy's claims that a sleeping JonBenet was put to bed when they arrived home.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by Sprocket

The undigested pineapple is clear evidence that contradicts information from "primary source" John & Patsy's statements that JonBenet went straight to bed when they got home. This is physical evidence, that has never been adequately explained by the Ramseys.

She didn't eat pineapple at the Whites; it's been shown to be the same pineapple that was in the bowl on the counter. Why would Patsy and John misrepresent the last hours of their daughter's life? Why would they lie about feeding her this pineapple?

Could you please provide the link that proves the pineapple in JB's intestine is the exact same pineapple found in the bowl at the Ramseys on the table. Thank you.

[bullmoose]

Sprocket: could you show me where the pineapple found in Jonbenet was decided to be the exact same pineapple as found in the bowl-link please?

[KingCoyote]

Well, I guess I will start sounding like a broken record but for the nth time. I will advance my theory about the pineapple again since we now have a thread specifically for it.

IMO...the pineapple was brought by a guest at the 12/23 party in the guest's container. At the end of the party, the guest transferred the pineapple to one of the Ramsey's bowls without touching the bowl, put plastic wrap on the bowl, put the bowl in the Ramsey's big refrigerator without touching the porcelain bowl itself thereby leaving no prints of the guest. On Christmas morning PR touches the sides of the porcelain when moving the bowl in the refrigerator to get the ingredients to make their usual Christmas breakfast which leaves her prints on it.

On Christmas afternoon Burke comes along looking for a snack because its a long time between Christmas breakfast and the Whites party, sees the bowl in the refrigerator, likes what he sees in it, takes it out, removes the plastic wrap and discards it because that darn plastic wrap clings to itself, pulls out a glass, makes him some makeshift iced tea, which PR has said he likes, leaves the bowl and the glass on the table and goes on to the FW party while nobody notices the bowl and glass since they aren't having meals in the breakfast room that evening or the next morning. This puts both PR and BR's prints on the items, accounts for the strange glass of tea and could account for the white stuff appearing in the bowl of fruit: it's mold that is forming after fruit sitting out in a warm house since Christmas afternoon until whenever the Crime Scene Photos are taken. (Or it could be just a funny reflection of the flash from the camera.)

Both Burke and the guest who brought the pineapple to the party simply remain quiet as they want to sit this one out and not get any more involved than they already are by being in the house on or close to those fateful days.

I am turning off the record player. (at least for a while)

KingCoyote

[bullmoose]

To KingCoyote: I do not know if the scenario that you posted is correct or not, but I think it is a plausible one. I enjoy your ideas and posts.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

[...]
Both Burke and the guest who brought the pineapple to the party simply remain quiet as they want to sit this one out and not get any more involved than they already are by being in the house on or close to those fateful days.

I am turning off the record player. (at least for a while)

KingCoyote

Based on Patsy's 1997 interview this appears to be who was at the party:

Fleet and Pricilla and their two children, her sister Allison and Allison's boyfriend, Allison’s daughter Heather. Glen and Susan Stine and their son Doug , Susan’s mother was there and Glen’s mother . Patsy’s father and the Fernies, Joe and Betty Barnhill & their boarder, Mr. & Mrs. Santa Claus, Linda Hoffman and her daughter.

23? people.

My biggest problem with your theory is the idea someone would deliberately withhold this information and/or it wouldn't have come out in interviews. At a minimum someone would have said "And so and so brought some pineapple."

[thewhitewitch1]

It may have happened like KC said or it may not.
His scenerio didn't include when JB ate the pineapple.
We do have an idea of the time frame of when she would have eaten it, which would have been some time Christmas night. I find it difficult to believe that Patsy or John would not have noticed that bowl sitting out all day. I also find it difficult to believe that neither of them would have noticed it during their party. Also, Burke was not especially fond of pineapple.
I had to laugh when the OP was asked to provide a link proving that the pineapple in JBs intestines was the same in the bowl. That was ridiculous.
The time frame for her to have eaten pineapple and her death very strongly indicates that she ate the pineapple in her own home and there she was, and there's the pineapple.
I don't see how there can be any dispute about it. IMO

[LindaA]

I'm so glad to see this thread as it was the first one I started when I first came to this board. It was combined with several other threads about other troublesome items of evidence, and I was always sorry the mods decided to do that as I think the pineapple need its own thread. Personally, for me, it has been the thing that kept me from being a true IDI for a long time. However, I am interested in some theories I have seen posted here which could account for it.

Originally Posted by bullmoose

Sprocket: could you show me where the pineapple found in Jonbenet was decided to be the exact same pineapple as found in the bowl-link please?

This is common knowledge, a fact that should not be disputed at this late a date.

Page 192 ST book, hardback:

It was on that table that police had found the porcelain bowl containing fresh pineapple and bearing the fingerprints of Patsy and Burke. To me, that connected Patsy to the pineapple, and pineapple was found in JonBenet's stomach, and one plus one equals two. I came to believe Patsy had given JonBenet pineapple that night.

Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that is was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?

Fact. Consistent, "down to the rind."

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by LindaA

I'm so glad to see this thread as it was the first one I started when I first came to this board. It was combined with several other threads about other troublesome items of evidence, and I was always sorry the mods decided to do that as I think the pineapple need its own thread. Personally, for me, it has been the thing that kept me from being a true IDI for a long time. However, I am interested in some theories I have seen posted here which could account for it.

I was kind of hoping Elvislives would wade in on this issue but she hasn't been posting much lately.

[KingCoyote]

thewhitewitch1 and Louisadelmar:

Just a few more comments to tie up some loose ends. I don't think the pineapple was in one of the Ramsey bowls during the party. I hypothesize that it was put in their bowl as people cleaned up on their way home. Someone just didn't want to take it with them. It wouldn't have been particularly noticeable by anyone during the party, just another bowl of food.

From the food I saw on the table from the pictures of that party, I not sure anyone may have realized what was there and what was not or who did bring what. 23 people could bring 23 different things, at least, and some of those things could get overlooked. Every party I have been to like that has had more food than I could even look at much less eat and there would be no way I could remember all of what was brought specifically by whom. I see the point that someone surely could have said...."oh yeah....so and so brought that"...I just don't know. Maybe it was one of the first things brought and nobody asked about who brought it. Maybe it was brought at the same time as a lot of other stuff and nobody noticed.

As far as the Ramseys not seeing it during the morning of 12/26, I would be surprised if anyone specifically remembers anything about that madhouse. (Actually I don't think there are good "minutes" of that morning unless, of course FW has some.) There is a ton of controversy as to what all did happen. The bowl and glass, if they were in the same place during that day as they were in the picture and looking at the floor plan of the Ramsey house, leads me to believe that the breakfast room and table wasn't exactly "ground zero" for all of the activities.

As to Burke not being particularly fond of pineapple I cannot comment on his likes and dislikes but sometimes a child or anyone for that matter, if hungry enough, will eat the first thing he/she could find especially if pineapple is the quickest and maybe only option in the front of the refrigerator. Additionally, I see the Kleenex box as being something a child would use as a convenient napkin as opposed to getting a true napkin from whereever they are stored.

As to how JBR gets to it is the $64,000 question. If it was in the position as shown in the pictures, it looks like it would be accessible if she climbed up on a chair and further accessible for her to simply reach in and pluck a piece or two out without touching the bowl. Childern do have a tendency to eat with their fingers.

As to the series of events that leads JBR to the breakfast room is a whole 'nuther matter. First she has to eat the pineapple roughly 1 and 1/2 to 2 hours in advance of dying. We roughly know that. I am not a gastroenterologist so I have no real idea. So if she died at lets say, 2 AM which could corresponds to time frame of the alleged scream heard by Melody Stanton then she consumed the pineapple at Midnight to 12:30 AM. The question is: What is she doing up at that time? Could she have awakened on her own, gone downstairs for her "special Santa visit," played with some toys and encountered the killer an hour or two later? Could she have been awakened by PR, used the bathroom, then have gone downstairs, had the pineapple and encountered the killer an hour or two later. Could she have eaten the pineapple as a snack immediately upon arriving home, which contradicts everything the Rs say, and she dies at 11 PM or so. (That contradicts the "scream timeline" as well.) I just don't know. I could go on and on (like I sometimes do...lol) with alternatives.

Hope that makes it clearer.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

In addition to claiming she didn't feed JonBenet the pineapple and has no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there, Patsy states that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for herself. She also states that she had never known Burke to have gotten a snack like that for his sister in the middle of the night. Had he, Patsy stated, she would have heard the cupboards banging, etc. IMO, based on Patsy's own statements, the probability that JonBenet had gotten it for herself is very low, as is the probability that Burke got it for her. The probability that Burke got it for himself and JonBenet had some is somewhat low based on Patsy's statement that she would have heard the cupboards banging and her statement that Burke wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for himself, he had a sweet tooth, didn't care for pineapple that much, and would have went for chocolate. It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by Tober

In addition to claiming she didn't feed JonBenet the pineapple and has no idea how the bowl of pineapple got there, Patsy states that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for herself. She also states that she had never known Burke to have gotten a snack like that for his sister in the middle of the night. Had he, Patsy stated, she would have heard the cupboards banging, etc. IMO, based on Patsy's own statements, the probability that JonBenet had gotten it for herself is very low, as is the probability that Burke got it for her. The probability that Burke got it for himself and JonBenet had some is somewhat low based on Patsy's statement that she would have heard the cupboards banging and her statement that Burke wouldn't have gotten a snack like that for himself, he had a sweet tooth, didn't care for pineapple that much, and would have went for chocolate. It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.

Though I am an RDI and very much believe that Patsy was involved, to be fair, Patsy simply could have gone along with the suggestion that JB could have gotten up and got the pineapple for herself. She could have lied about it so it would enforce the "intruder" theory that perhaps JB ran into the killer, yet she didn't.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

Though I am an RDI and very much believe that Patsy was involved, to be fair, Patsy simply could have gone along with the suggestion that JB could have gotten up and got the pineapple for herself.

It's also possible that by Patsy saying that she didn't give JonBenet the pineapple and that Burke and/or JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it, that she was attempting to imply/suggest that an intruder had to have gotten it for JonBenet.

Hey all, I've been pretty swamped lately and haven't had much time , but thought I'd weigh in on the pineapple mystery.
First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source. I dont think anyone believes that an intruder brought ANOTHER pineapple which he fed to JB, then took the leftovers with him when he left.
Secondly, I have a household that runs somewhat similar to the Ramseys....i.e. since my spouse and I both work full time, have children, and pets and travel a bit....we have a lot of outside help coming and going from our house. I also have a large refrigerator and often find things in there and have no idea where they came from. So when people say "how on earth could PR not know there was pineapple in her frig??....or how could she not notice a bowl of pineapple on her table?? That proves she is lying or covering up...I just don't agree with that. If PR lived in a very small house with little outside interference, that might be a logical line of reasoning, but under the circumstances I don't find her lack of knowledge at all unusual.
Also, I think PR is a bit of a kook---but I don't think she is stupid. Someone speculated that she denied any knowlege of the pineapple because she had already gone on the record saying that JB was asleep when they got home and therefore couldnt go back and change her story.If that were the case, then I think she would have lied and said, yes maybe JB woke up and fixed herself a snack. Or maybe Burke fixed her a snack. But she didn't...she said that neither of these possiblilites was likely...and she wasn;t questioned about these habits until after she knew about the pineapple.
Also, I think it would be VERY risky for her to lie about something that Burke could refute....THEN allow him to be interviewed by the BPD for 6 hours shortly after the crime. If she was going to lie about things that Burke could contradict, I don't think she would allow the police to interview him. And if she lied about JB being asleep, then realized she had been caught in a lie since they found pineapple in the intestine...I think she would lead the cops to believe that JB may indeed have fixed herself a snack. JMO

[Tober]

John and Patsy claim JonBenet was asleep and put to bed when they arrived home + Pineapple in JonBenet's upper intestine consumed after they arrived home but before she was killed + Bowl of pineapple on table with Patsy's fingerprints on bowl + Patsy denies giving JonBenet the pineapple and says someone would had to have gotten it for her = ?

[shill]

Originally Posted by Tober

It can be reasonably inferred that someone had to have gotten the pineapple for JonBenet, as Patsy stated she'd be unable to reach that bowl on her own (which implies the pineapple wasn't in the bowl in the refrigerator). Therein lies the problem: Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl.

It implies that if the bowl wasn't in the refrigerator, it would be stored some where out of reach of JB.

Therein lies the problem: Burke's fingerprints are on the bowl and glass.

[shill]

We do not know her time of death, hence we do not know when she ate pineapple.
End of story.
Are primary source tells us she ate pineapple after they put her to bed.

If Patsy's fingerprints on the bowl make her guilty of feeding JB pineapple, then Burke's fingerprints on the bowl and glass would make him a witness to Patsy feeding JB pineapple.

The miss matched spoon and bowl, mismatched glass for tea, and the Kleenex for napkins point to the work of a child. Again I argue that this scene was created by Burke. What would be important to know, is whose fingerprints are on the tea bag tag?

[Tober]

Originally Posted by shill

Burke's fingerprints are on the bowl and glass.

Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl too, but she denies getting the pineapple for JonBenet. She also says JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it for herself, but denies (based on her statements) that John or Burke would have gotten it for her.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by elvislives

Hey all, I've been pretty swamped lately and haven't had much time , but thought I'd weigh in on the pineapple mystery.
First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source. I dont think anyone believes that an intruder brought ANOTHER pineapple which he fed to JB, then took the leftovers with him when he left.
Secondly, I have a household that runs somewhat similar to the Ramseys....i.e. since my spouse and I both work full time, have children, and pets and travel a bit....we have a lot of outside help coming and going from our house. I also have a large refrigerator and often find things in there and have no idea where they came from. So when people say "how on earth could PR not know there was pineapple in her frig??....or how could she not notice a bowl of pineapple on her table?? That proves she is lying or covering up...I just don't agree with that. [...]

Hi Elvislives -

Thanks for the info - I'm glad someone else thinks it's normal to be a bit vague about what's in the frig. :-)

Any thoughts on the time parameters for when JonBenet could have eaten the pineapple? Many people offer up the standard one to two hours. But then there is this from Lin Wood in ST's depo:

17 Q. You don't recall Dr. Michael
18 Graham taking the position that the pineapple
19 found in JonBenet's digestive system could
20 have been eaten the day before? Does that
21 refresh you in terms of Michael Graham's
22 involvement?

Furhman in his book on the Moxley case suggested 3 hours as a time for the stomach to empty. Could some foods (like the crab) be digested more easily (faster) than the fiber of the pineapple?

Questions, questions, questions...

[KingCoyote]

I am a little confused. Patsy has stated that JBR could not reach the bowls or glasses which would be stored in cabinets above the kitchen counters but I have never heard anyone say that JBR could not reach things in the refrigerator. Go back to my original hypothesis and change it as follows: Burke checks out what is in the bowl when he looks for an afternoon snack; sees that it is pineapple and puts it back in the refrigerator leaving his fingerprint on the porcelain but goes ahead and makes his improvised glass of tea and drinks it at the breakfast room table and leaves it there. That night:JBR got up on her own, went downstairs for a snack, got the bowl out of the refrigerator by herself without touching the porcelain due to the plastic wrap being on it, sat down with the bowl next to the glass Burke had used earlier in the day then she pulls off the plastic wrap, plucks a piece of two out for a snack, grabs a kleenex as a napkin, wads up the plastic wrap up with the napkin, throws them away, leaves the bowl on the table as she goes to her next venture and eventually is confronted by the killer some hour or two later. This eliminates the need for Burke to have a pineapple snack, since he doesn't like pineapple, puts his fingerprints on the bowl, keeps JBR's prints off the bowl and leaves both items on the breakfast room table. PR's prints were already on the bowl from moving the bowl when she made breakfast.

Who Knows?

KC =

You know what?....I forgot the spoon.....oooops!

First off, it IS possible to do a dna profile of the pineapple in the small intestine and compare it to that in the bowl and determine whether they came from the same plant. That said, I highly doubt this was done since it is almost assumed that they are from the same source.

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

[KingCoyote]

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

[shill]

Originally Posted by Sprocket

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

I agree. (see signature for response)

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

Even if that were true, that people left this pineapple on 12/23 in her refrigerator, I find it hard to believe that she didn't know it was there, or didn't know that a guest she invited brought fresh pineapple to her house on 12/23. That would mean she didn't know what food was being served at her own party. Not Patsy.

Patsy herself said that JonBenet would not get this snack herself in the middle of the night and that Burke wouldn't help her get one either. Patsy's fingerprints are on the bowl. The bowl was left on the counter, in the home. The pineapple helps to fix an approximate time of death. They can tell by WHERE the pineapple is in her small intestine that she had to have eaten it that evening, and AFTER the White's party.

Carbohydrates eaten by themselves move out of the stomach pretty quickly. Please don't make me "prove" this by digging out my college nutrition books.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by Sprocket

Of course they are from the same source. To conclude otherwise is not logical.

The lab determined that it was fresh pineapple, in the stomach and on the counter. It's a good logical conclusion that the pineapple that was found on the counter is the same one she ingested. It was in her home, in a bowl with Patsy's finger prints on the bowl. Child found in the home with undigested pineapple (fresh) in her intestines. Ergo, same pineapple. How difficult is that to "digest" people?

What reason in the world would the lab need, for them to go to the extent of doing a DNA match on a bowl of pineapple? Has it been found in a significant number of cases of child murders in the home that intruders bring fresh fruit/pineapple with them when they plan to kidnap?

It's logical that this is the pineapple that she ate. How could anyone ever possibly conclude that someone brought her some other pineapple that she ate, but it's not the same pineapple that was found on the counter. Sheesh!

There wasn't pineapple at the White's party. Patsy didn't have a party on Christmas day where a bunch of people brought fresh dishes to her house, and left them in the fridge. That idea is pure speculation. The Ramsey's didn't bring leftovers home from the Whites. If they did, they've never mentioned it, nor have the White's ever mentioned it.

I think it is more likely than not that the pineapple is from the bowl.

On the other hand I would like to know, even if they weren't serving it, did the Whites have pineapple at their house? Did BPD ask? Or did they just ask what was served at the party?

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

I know...maybe JBR grabbed a spoon by making a fist and never touched it with her fingers...then decided not to use it and just plucked a piece out with her fingers......how's that one?

Sprocket:

I don't know who said PR had a party on Christmas Day with people bringing fresh food over but she sure had one on 12/23 where people brought food over and might have left some.

KC

Why do you think people brought food on the 23rd?

[KingCoyote]

Sprocket:

I suggest that you go back and read Post #17 by elvislives. I do not know whether you have seen pictures of the food table that was present at the 12/23 party but there appeared to be lots and lots of dishes. Patsy had at least 23 people over (See post # 8 by Louisadelmar) which may have produced 23 different dishes. I doubt Patsy, with her casual household management approach, had a clue what foods were being served. She was probably more interested in what people were wearing.

In reading her Interviews with Law Enforcement she couldn't remember much of what was served at the White's party other than the cracked crab. I also note that the Ramseys had a huge walk-in type refrigerator which was probably 35-45 cubic feet, far, far larger than the average individual owns. I must respectfully disagree with your conclusions.

My personal experience in having and attending parties with 20-30 guests also tells me that I have no way of keeping up with who brought what. I have found things and bowls in my refrigerator and cabinets after holidays that I have no clue where they came from and I am one of the most anal retentive, obsessive compulsive type persons you will ever meet. (Just go read all of my posts and that will tell you something about me.) I just went to a New Year's Eve Party with 30 or so people and I could not believe the different number of dishes we had available. I think someone of JR and PR's status would have had more than people of my status.

My attempts to speculate, as you call them, and hypothesize, as I call them are based on an attempt to follow the evidence. In order analyze the "pineapple" you must find a sequence of events that puts the glass, bowl and spoon as well as the kleenex box on the breakfast room table. The glass must have Burke's fingerprints on it, and have a reason for a tea bag in it. You must source the pineapple, or, in other words, figure out how it got in the Ramsey house. The bowl must have PR and BR's prints on it but not JBR's. JBR must have at least one piece of the pineapple without touching the bowl and more than likely, the spoon. Please give me your step by step analysis and sequence of events that produces the result we have to work with. I am willing to listen to anything that answers the questions about this case. I am sure, unless you were at the Ramsey's house that fateful evening, that you, too, will have to speculate as you call it and hypothesize as I call it.

KingCoyote

[Tober]

Patsy is trying to distance herself from the pineapple issue all together. She is acting as if the pineapple itself is foreign to the home. She even implies that JonBenet may have consumed it at the Whites. She won't even acknowledge that it came from the home. She contends that no one in the home got it for JonBenet and that JonBenet wouldn't have gotten it for herself. She's trying to avoid this pineapple issue as much as possible.

[KingCoyote]

Tober:

There is no question that Patsy is distancing herself from the pineapple. Whether she is lying or telling the truth in order to do that isn't the issue. I just want ideas as to the sequence of events that puts the glass, bowl, spoon and kleenex box on the breakfast room table with fingerprints of PR anf BR only on the bowl and fingerprints of BR only on the glass. How did all of that come about? When did it happen? Who participated in what activity to create the setting we have? Why did they get pineapple out? Why did they try to make tea? Why is it in the breakfast room instead of on the kitchen counter? How did the pineapple get into the house? etc., etc., etc., etc., I think if we can answer all of those questions we can get a little closer to what happened that night. I don't think that summarily dismissing other peoples ideas based on personal conclusions will get us there. If I have tried to establish anything by even participating in a forum it is an attitude of objectivity and neutrality based on the evidence we have.

KingCoyote

[Kor]

Since I don't know if it was the pineapple that was found in JB's digestive system or if BPD did examine it to confirm its a pineapple, but linking it to the parents as liar & murder, especially Patsy, is like beating a dead horse. Patsy would have already confessed about it long ago. I don't see why the pineapple issue would be a big deal to Patsy. There were other people than the parents would have given the pineapple as easily to JB, like Linda the housekeeper for example....

[KingCoyote]

Louisadelmar:

Thats a darn good question.

I looked at the number of food items on the table and I guess, assumed that it was a party similar to the parties I go to over the holidays where everyone brings something. I suppose Patsy could have put the whole spread on herself. The fact that she might have does kind of put a hole in my ideas....doesn't it. I guess I should have said she had a party on 12/23 where people could have brought food with them, shouldn't I? I should stay consistent when I hypothesize, shouldn't I. Thanks for pointing that out.

Do you think she put the whole spread on herself?

KC

[Louisadelmar]

She doesn't say anything in DOI pp. 99-101 ppbk about people bringing food. According to PMPT p.132 the party started at 5pm. According to DOI it ended at 8pm.

My guess is she ordered the food. McReynolds called her on the 20th so she had some warning. We know she bought the gingerbread houses, frosting and decorations. My sense is if this had been a pot-luck kind of party she would have mentioned it either in DOI or in the interviews when they were asking about having pineapple in the house.

p.s. DOI says 31 guests. Add Mr & Mrs Pinky Barber + children and assorted house-guests.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

How did the pineapple get into the house?

IMO, we should always start with the most logical conclusion, and only when a less logical conclusion can be substantiated, do we stray from the more logical one. Patsy stated she would sometimes buy fresh pineapple in a bag with a resealable top from the grocery store. The pineapple was in a bowl owned by the Ramseys, on their table, in their home. Their spoon was in the bowl. JonBenet, who lived there, consumed the pineapple sometime after arriving home but prior to being killed. The pineapple was already in the Ramsey home, most likely purchased by them. Patsy's fingerprints were on the bowl, as were Burke's. Patsy says Burke wouldn't have gotten JonBenet the pineapple. The most logical scenario is that JonBenet was awake when they arrived home and given the pineapple by Patsy as a snack. IMO, anything beyond that is simply too much of a stretch.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

Why did they try to make tea?

Burke liked tea. His fingerprints were on the glass. He felt like a glass of tea, so he made himself one, either before or after working on his model.

[KingCoyote]

Ok...now were getting somewhere...

Lets assume that PR did put on the whole spread and did have pineapple in the fridge and did provide a snack at about 9:15 - 9:30 PM. This means that she provided the snack in the breakfast room rather than the kitchen which would logically be the place for a quick snack as opposed to setting up in the breakfast room. This also means that she may have participated in making this makeshift glass of tea and had no fingerprints on the glass. It also means that she used an oversized serving spoon for the pineapple but no dishes or plates to put the pineapple on. It also means that she left both on the table for the evening as opposed to putting fruit back in the fridge. It also means that if we believe the most frequent stated digestive rate being 1 and 1/2 to two hours that JBR was killed by 11.30 to maybe 12:00 midnite which means we are getting close to dismissing any possible scream by JBR since Melody Stanton said she heard the scream between 12 and 2 by one source and at about 2 AM by another. I have some problems with Patsy being too involved with the pineapple "snack" upon arriving at home. Things don't add up as logical to me but lets keep kicking this one around until the pieces fit together.

If she doesn't give them a snack at 9:30 or so that means we have to create all of how the glass and bowl and spoon and kleenex got there.

Just a few thoughts and opinions.

KC

[KingCoyote]

Good Point Tober:

It is possible that the glass of tea and the bowl of pineapple did not arrive on the breakfast table at the same time.

KC

[Tober]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

Why did they get pineapple out?

JonBenet liked pineapple. She was probably a little hungry, so Patsy got it out and gave some to her as a snack. Patsy probably left it out in case Burke wanted some when he was finished working on his model.