Anatomy of a Cold Case - CourtTV

[Athena]

I believe this aired in August 2006 but is being shown again tonight:

Tonight, 11pm Eastern Time, 10pm Central
Court TV

The crime that has captivated a nation for nearly a decade is once again in the headlines now that Patsy Ramsey, mother of the doomed child beauty queen JonBenet, has passed away. Court TV takes a closer look at the case in this hour-long special that includes an exclusive interview with a Grand Juror on the case, as well as other key players. We delve into the investigation in an effort to understand why the death of JonBenet, who was found murdered ten years ago this December (2006), has remained unsolved. An in-depth examination of the twists and turns of one of America's most baffling mysteries, this special takes a closer look at the evidence, the mistakes that were made and the media circus that has surrounded the case since JonBenet’s tiny body was discovered in the basement of her home in Colorado.

[concernedperson]

JMO, this is a cold case by design.

[thewhitewitch1]

Thanks for the heads-up, Athena!

[createthis]

Thanks for the post Athena, but I can't find it on. Is it possible the time is wrong? It's 10PM Central here and it's not on. Oh well, thanks anyway.

[KingCoyote]

Did anyone get a screen capture of the sleeve of JBR's shirt when the show first talked about DNA? My eyes may be playing tricks on me but I swear I saw red stains on the sleeve/cuff portion where the loose knot on her wrist was or maybe the other cuff/sleeve? Could it have been blood or some substance the lab applied?

KingCoyote

[thewhitewitch1]

I didn't learn much new from the show except that the pineapple/bowl and glass w/teabag wasn't noticed until later in the photos. If they had been noticed right after the murder, it would have been interesting to see if any DNA showed up on the spoon, as the guy on the show said.

[KingCoyote]

The Coyote is fuming...almost rabid:

In the show Cold Case the announcer mentioned that there was one fiber from the ligature cord found in JBR's bed therefore she was bound and killed in the bed. That is insane.

That fiber could have come from anywhere. Did anyone of the producers ever hear of transferance? That fiber in JBR's bed proves one thing and one thing only: that there was a fiber from the ligature rope in JBR's bed.

By the announcer's faulty logic, that means that since trace evidence of the rope sack in JAR's room was on JBR and in the body bag, she must have been killed in JAR's room. It is almost as ludicrous as saying that since JBR had pineapple in her system and the pineapple bowl was in the breakfast room she must have been killed in the breakfast room.

The ligature rope has not been sourced. The movements of the killer have not been established. The rope could have come from inside of the house and was the last of the rope. There isn't anymore of the rope to which you would source the ligature. JBR could have been playing with it in her room while she was playing with her bead making kit or her potholder making kit. The killer who used the rope could have come back to JBR's room after the killing and left the trace evidence or could have been in her room with the rope in his/her hands prior to the killing. Who knows?

This is a perfect example of how someone takes one or two pieces of evidence and arrives at the conclusion of whodunnit? Please don't fall into this trap.

I also noted that the show stated that the DNA from the blood stain in the panties was male, caucasian. I am aware of recent developments that DNA can possibly be linked to race but I was not aware that it been absolutely established as to this DNA. Any confirming source for the DNA being conclusively caucasian?

If anyone is interested in the loooooooong posts that I have been entering, get ready for a another one. I'm not saying I have discovered the killer; I have not but I am seeing something that I have not heard of being discussed before and just doesn't make sense nor does it "jibe" with the normally assumed information of the case. I could be wrong. Lets just see. The new thread should be up possibly today, January 6th.

Thank you for your patience.

KC

[LindaA]

KC, I'm sorry I can't give you a source, but I have read many times that the DNA has been sourced to a Caucasian male. I believe it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

As for the lone fiber from the rope being in JBR's bed, I think it makes sense to conclude that the rope was in her bed at some point. I asuppose it is too much to ask if fibers fromthe rope were found elsewhere in the house.

I look forward to your post.

[LindaA]

I was interested to see that this was directed by Schiller and that the use of a stun gun was presented as fact. Schiller seems to lean more heavily on the side of the Ramseys' innocence these days.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by LindaA

KC, I'm sorry I can't give you a source, but I have read many times that the DNA has been sourced to a Caucasian male. I believe it has been discussed elsewhere on this forum.

http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...KQKGPI9231URL7

Fox News Exclusive, Carol McKinley on the unsourced DNA in JonBenet's panties:

www.foxnews.com

Carol McKinley: One piece of information which has been seen as a major clue, but which is wrong, is that the DNA which was in JonBenet's underwear came from a caucasian male. Truth is, it was never, ever tested for race. Because there's not enough, and it's tested, it will be used up. All we know is, it belongs to a male, we don't know what ethnicity it is.


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Is-This-a-DNA-Case

Karr Arrest Warrant. Additionally, the arrest warrant (p. 82) in the John Mark Karr case did not state that the DNA was "caucasian" - merely that it contained a male fraction. This suggests that for whatever reason, BDA has not yet tested the JBR DNA for race.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by LindaA

I was interested to see that this was directed by Schiller and that the use of a stun gun was presented as fact. Schiller seems to lean more heavily on the side of the Ramseys' innocence these days.

I'm looking for it, but there was a thread about this program at FFJ when it came first out where a poster emailed Schiller and asked him about the program, to which Schiller replied that Court Tv had taken the liberty of editing his show and what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen. It's my understanding that Court Tv is known to be pro-Ramsey because they are afraid of being sued.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

If anyone is interested in the loooooooong posts that I have been entering, get ready for a another one. I'm not saying I have discovered the killer; I have not but I am seeing something that I have not heard of being discussed before and just doesn't make sense nor does it "jibe" with the normally assumed information of the case. I could be wrong. Lets just see. The new thread should be up possibly today, January 6th.

Thank you for your patience.

KC

I'm definitely interested in your long posts, and am more than willing to reply with posts just as long. I look forward to hearing what you want to discuss, especially if it hasn't been discussed before.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

I'm looking for it, but there was a thread about this program at FFJ when it came first out where a poster emailed Schiller and asked him about the program, to which Schiller replied that Court Tv had taken the liberty of editing his show and what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen. It's my understanding that Court Tv is known to be pro-Ramsey because they are afraid of being sued.

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=7038

[Athena]

King... I just played the tape back re: the fiber from the cord in JBRs bed. It doesn't say she was killed in her bed but that only it was possible she may have been "tied' to the bed.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=7038

IMO his reply was a political one and I would not hold my breath. He doesn't say what was said was not true just that the show had been edited -- that could just mean the time frame of the show as well. :shrug;

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

I found it - Tricia Griffith herself emailed Schiller. Here are her emails and his reply.

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...ead.php?t=7038

I couldn't find where he said "what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen.."

[Athena]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

http://www.topix.net/forum/news/jonb...KQKGPI9231URL7

Fox News Exclusive, Carol McKinley on the unsourced DNA in JonBenet's panties:

www.foxnews.com

Carol McKinley: One piece of information which has been seen as a major clue, but which is wrong, is that the DNA which was in JonBenet's underwear came from a caucasian male. Truth is, it was never, ever tested for race. Because there's not enough, and it's tested, it will be used up. All we know is, it belongs to a male, we don't know what ethnicity it is.


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Is-This-a-DNA-Case

Karr Arrest Warrant. Additionally, the arrest warrant (p. 82) in the John Mark Karr case did not state that the DNA was "caucasian" - merely that it contained a male fraction. This suggests that for whatever reason, BDA has not yet tested the JBR DNA for race.

What makes what Carol McKinley said any more true than what Charlie Brennan said in this documentary? I don't know if and how race was identified but both are reporters and both are only repeating what someone else reported to them. Carol says it wasn't male caucasian and Charlie Brennan says it was. Unless we see the lab reports ourselves we just don't know.

I do know you don't need all of the markers to determine race. Just ask the forensic lab people from the World Trade Center. They were working with minute fragments of DNA and were able to ID people with 4 loci and that was in 2001. Scientists from around the world interjected their expertise at the time to enable IDs with a minute source of DNA.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

I couldn't find where he said "what we saw was not what he had originally intended to be seen.."

That was not a direct quote, that was my paraphrase. I never meant to imply those were Schiller's words. If I wanted to quote him, you'd see quotation marks around the words I was quoting from him.

[Athena]

Synopsis of Documentary:

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

The isolated DNA WAS from a male Caucasian (Charlie Brennan) and was repeated by the narrator.

Michael Doberson was the one who did stun gun experiments with an anesthized pig and stated the stun gun marks were similar. He also cleared up the conflicting statements that I have read by RDIs re: his views on the use of the stun gun as he does believe the marks were consistent with a stun gun.

Tests done on that duct tape matched nothing found in the home, or used by the Ramseys or any friends. In addition to that no purchases of duct tape had been matched to this specific duct tape. There were NO matches to this duct tape found anywhere.

The shoe print did not match Burke’s and still remains unidentified.

The only so-called evidence the BPD had were:

That Patsy could not be excluded as the author of the note
That Patsy had on the same clothes
The odd amount of ransom asked for
No clear sign of forced entry
No disturbance caused to alert occupants of the house

Michael Kane himself said straight out that every imaginable piece of evidence of anything that could have been construed as evidence could not be definitively tied to the Ramseys as being the murderer.

Even though the BPD felt they had an air-tight case, Henry Lee admits here that after the huge conference where the presentations were made there were still more questions than answers.

I remember reading a post by an RDI that said the particular grand juror that was interviewed specfically said she did not believe parents could do this to their child and she said no such thing. She did say it was frustrating to them that the DNA results were not in. She said the most significant part of the case was the skull fracture.

It is believed blow had to be struck by a man because of the force and with a flashlight.. The breakage of the paintbrush Lee felt Patsy could not have done that.

Schiller did say that some of the grand jurors (plural) he spoke with did say that they believed the parents were incapable of killing their child because of no history of prior behavior, motive or definitive evidence.

Ed Gelb, Polygrapher says he believes there was no deception in any of the three tests administered and BOTH were asked questions about the note and knowledge of the killer. He also says JR was very angry and it was difficult to develop a rapport .

The pineapple/tea glass still remain a mystery:

In the portion of the interview with Patsy she claims she cleaned the breakfast table and the pineapple bowl and tea glass were not there. My question is could someone have placed it there the morning of with all the visitors there? Could someone have made tea and just placed the teabag in an empty glass? I never could understand why a drinking glass would have a teabag in it since it did not look like a hot/cold cup?

Guess I shouldn't be surprised -- but NO DNA testing was done on the spoon or the glass??? Totally incredible.

It appears the biggest question is about how the pineapple got into JBR?

[nuisanceposter]

Originally Posted by Athena

What makes what Carol McKinley said any more true than what Charlie Brennan said in this documentary? I don't know if and how race was identified but both are reporters and both are only repeating what someone else reported to them. Carol says it wasn't male caucasian and Charlie Brennan says it was. Unless we see the lab reports ourselves we just don't know.

I do know you don't need all of the markers to determine race. Just ask the forensic lab people from the World Trade Center. They were working with minute fragments of DNA and were able to ID people with 4 loci and that was in 2001. Scientists from around the world interjected their expertise at the time to enable IDs with a minute source of DNA.

I think it's indicative that they don't know the race because it wasn't listed in Karr's arrest warrant. Not solid proof, but certainly indicative. AS KC pointed out, I have never heard anyone not associated with the RST (or a reporter repeating info from the RST) say that the race of the DNA was identified as Caucasian. If you can find someone impartial who would have seen the test reports and also has said that the DNA is definitely from a Caucasian, I'd reconsider.

In Tricia's email to Schiller, she notes that Wood said the DNA was sourced to saliva, and then she points out that she has contacted a criminologist who told her "If the DNA is from semen or saliva or blood, then the DNA would only be an accurate indicator of gender, and the race would basically be a big guess."

But personally I don't believe that fragmented, degraded sample of DNA has anything to do with JonBenet's murderer. I still have never heard an answer for how a sample of DNA that was deposited at the same as JonBenet's (when she was assaulted and killed) can be so degraded and fragmented while hers is fresh and complete. That does not make sense. What does make sense is that the DNA was already there prior to her being dressed in them, and that explains why it's not as fresh and complete.

[LindaA]

Thank you, Athena for that wonderful synopsis. You must have taken notes. What you reported is exactly what I recall being said.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

That was not a direct quote, that was my paraphrase. I never meant to imply those were Schiller's words. If I wanted to quote him, you'd see quotation marks around the words I was quoting from him.

I was quoting you. I didn't see anything that suggested the results weren't what he intended. Nor did he suggest they took liberties. Merely that they had control over the final edit which, I believe, is SOP.

Thanks for keeping me up to speed.

I could have done a two hour show and included all these areas which are important, but Court TV decided what was important for their audience. They had control over the final edit of the show. Please keep in mind that Court TV has their own reasons for including and excluding and editing the show tight.

You’re a big help and I will adjust some of my information in the future.

Regards.

Larry

[Zoey]

Athena:

Good job. I was unable to watch the show, as it was on at 1:00 am here and it was way past my bed time!!

One thing that caught my eye and that I have always believed. The tea bag in the glass was perhaps indeed put in there by one of the many visitors. The advocates and many others brought food into the house, including fruit, sandwiches and drinks. Coffee was made as well. Perhaps hot tea was as well?? Just because something appears as it does, does not mean that it is the way it is.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

I think it's indicative that they don't know the race because it wasn't listed in Karr's arrest warrant. Not solid proof, but certainly indicative. AS KC pointed out, I have never heard anyone not associated with the RST (or a reporter repeating info from the RST) say that the race of the DNA was identified as Caucasian. If you can find someone impartial who would have seen the test reports and also has said that the DNA is definitely from a Caucasian, I'd reconsider.

In Tricia's email to Schiller, she notes that Wood said the DNA was sourced to saliva, and then she points out that she has contacted a criminologist who told her "If the DNA is from semen or saliva or blood, then the DNA would only be an accurate indicator of gender, and the race would basically be a big guess."

But personally I don't believe that fragmented, degraded sample of DNA has anything to do with JonBenet's murderer. I still have never heard an answer for how a sample of DNA that was deposited at the same as JonBenet's (when she was assaulted and killed) can be so degraded and fragmented while hers is fresh and complete. That does not make sense. What does make sense is that the DNA was already there prior to her being dressed in them, and that explains why it's not as fresh and complete.

What I understood is that the DNA is good enough for exclusions and CAN provide a partial match which means at least the pool is narrowed down. You also have to remember this saliva was mixed in with her blood and had to be isolated. I would imagine something would be "lost" during this isolation process and it was determined to be useful. I would also think that hers would be easier to identify since they had something specific to match it to -- her. JMO

[Athena]

Originally Posted by LindaA

Thank you, Athena for that wonderful synopsis. You must have taken notes. What you reported is exactly what I recall being said.

Thanks Linda!

I actually taped it and watched it this morning as I fell asleep on it last night. Rough week. LOL

I wanted to add also if anyone sees anything incorrect -- please feel free to edit or of course point out discrepancies -- I was typing as I was watching it and also had to rewind it a couple of times.

[Athena]

Interesting article re: dna from saliva/ethnicity:

On Saturday, 65 people got some surprising answers using the latest DNA technology at a workshop at the College of Alameda.

Each participant gave a DNA sample -- a swab of saliva -- at an April 1 class. Their DNA was compared to a database of DNA from four bio-geographical population groups -- sub-Saharan African, European, East Asian and Native American -- to yield a percentage breakdown of ancestry.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...JCDI31.DTL&q=q

[nuisanceposter]

There's still no proof that the foreign DNA came from the killer or is in any way related to the crime, and with Dr Lee finding DNA in brand new packages of underwear, I'd say it's even more remote.

I'm not pinning the chances of solving this murder on the DNA. IMO, this not a DNA case.

And I'd say Steve Thomas found even more proof that there was indication of Ramsey involvement beyond that laughably small laundry list of evidence you said was in the doc. So did CASKU. I wonder why the presentation with them and their agreement that this crime reeks of accidental death being covered up with parental involvement wasn't covered.

You can only expect so much from a show that was as biased in Ramsey favor as that show was. I'd like to see someone present the case from the opposite point of view, but it seems everyone's too scared of big bad bully Lin Wood to do it.

I'm pretty sure that piece of duct tape came off of one of JonBenet's AG dolls, probably Molly. She was given the Molly doll by Nedra in Sept of 96, IIRC. The Pleasant Company, manufacturer of the AG dolls, suggests using duct tape to secure the tails of the string used to fasten the head of the doll to the body - the soft tan body which could very well be the source of the tan or brown fibers found on the tape. If that's the case, then no wonder no one has been able to locate the roll of tape - who knows if it got used up between Sept. and Dec. It's also suspicious that Pam Paugh specifically retrieved JB's AG dolls on Dec 28th when she allowed into the R house to get funeral clothes, and even more so that a Molly doll was ordered in JonBenet's name in January of 1997.

Check this out:

http://www.geocities.com/pinker44/

JonBenet was found dead with a decorative noose around her neck in the basement of her home the day after Christmas 1996. An autopsy revealed a mortal skull fracture yet there were no outward signs of this trauma. Her body was not battered as is sensationally claimed. She was wrapped in a white blanket with a piece of duct tape over her mouth. No one has ever been charged with the heinous crime. Mysterious dark blue fibers were found on her body, tan cotton fibers were found on the duct tape, and 'assorted hair' fibers were found littering the scene. No sources for the tape or fibers were found in the home and the crime remains unsolved and attributed to an intruder.

In an unprecedented move, Mrs. Ramsey's sister; Pam Paugh, was allowed into an active crime scene; still under investigation, with the pretense of getting clothing for the funeral. The list of things removed included far more than mourning attire. A friend in the DA's office; Pete Hofstrom, may have inapropriately influenced this decision. It went so far as the sister impersonating a police officer wearing a jacket and badge so as not to arouse suspicion. With multiple unfamiliar investigative agencies present, her actions would have appeared and been considered official.

Two years later it was published she had removed several dolls from the American Girls Collection. The dolls are 18" tall with a head and limbs of vinyl and a tan cotton body. The head is attached to the body with a string that is tied leaving a few inches dangling down the back. The cord can get in the way when the hair is brushed. In 1998 the company did train employees to suggest duct taping the string down as one of many ways to deal with the problem. The size of the tape from JonBenet matches if it had been on a doll. It was coated with tan cotton fibers descriptively matching the body of the doll.

One of the dolls, Molly, comes in an outfit of navy wool that visibly sheds, another descriptive match to fibers associated with the crime and the killer. A 'replacement' doll was delivered by UPS to John Ramsey's office within days of the funeral. It was paid for blindly with a money order. Why did the Ramseys specifically ask for those dolls to be removed? JonBenet only had them a few months. She had received a Samantha doll in August and Nedra purchased another in September.

[Athena]

This doll theory has been around for years. I don't believe for one second that it was not brought to the attention of the BPD and they could have been obtained/confiscated. As far as I am concerned it is not part of the evidence, has never been and therefore doesn't count at all. And if duct tape was used -- specifically what kind? Doesn't mean it matched the duct tape used during the murder nor does it prove there were in fact any duct tape on the dolls. As far as the "decorative" cord there is a difference in the cords and I saw them in pictures but don't remember where they are and they don't match. There's a difference between decorative cord and the cord used in the killing. Brown fibers were found on the duct tape not tan; presumed to have come from some kind of work gloves that also were never found. I also believe human hair and synthetic hair can easily be differentiated. JMO

I'd also like to know -- which is it? Black or blue fibers or any color that fits a speculation?

[shill]

Originally Posted by Athena

Synopsis of Documentary:

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

The isolated DNA WAS from a male Caucasian (Charlie Brennan) and was repeated by the narrator.

Michael Doberson was the one who did stun gun experiments with an anesthized pig and stated the stun gun marks were similar. He also cleared up the conflicting statements that I have read by RDIs re: his views on the use of the stun gun as he does believe the marks were consistent with a stun gun.

Tests done on that duct tape matched nothing found in the home, or used by the Ramseys or any friends. In addition to that no purchases of duct tape had been matched to this specific duct tape. There were NO matches to this duct tape found anywhere.

The shoe print did not match Burke’s and still remains unidentified.

The only so-called evidence the BPD had were:

That Patsy could not be excluded as the author of the note
That Patsy had on the same clothes
The odd amount of ransom asked for
No clear sign of forced entry
No disturbance caused to alert occupants of the house

Michael Kane himself said straight out that every imaginable piece of evidence of anything that could have been construed as evidence could not be definitively tied to the Ramseys as being the murderer.

Even though the BPD felt they had an air-tight case, Henry Lee admits here that after the huge conference where the presentations were made there were still more questions than answers.

I remember reading a post by an RDI that said the particular grand juror that was interviewed specfically said she did not believe parents could do this to their child and she said no such thing. She did say it was frustrating to them that the DNA results were not in. She said the most significant part of the case was the skull fracture.

It is believed blow had to be struck by a man because of the force and with a flashlight.. The breakage of the paintbrush Lee felt Patsy could not have done that.

Schiller did say that some of the grand jurors (plural) he spoke with did say that they believed the parents were incapable of killing their child because of no history of prior behavior, motive or definitive evidence.

Ed Gelb, Polygrapher says he believes there was no deception in any of the three tests administered and BOTH were asked questions about the note and knowledge of the killer. He also says JR was very angry and it was difficult to develop a rapport .

The pineapple/tea glass still remain a mystery:

In the portion of the interview with Patsy she claims she cleaned the breakfast table and the pineapple bowl and tea glass were not there. My question is could someone have placed it there the morning of with all the visitors there? Could someone have made tea and just placed the teabag in an empty glass? I never could understand why a drinking glass would have a teabag in it since it did not look like a hot/cold cup?

Guess I shouldn't be surprised -- but NO DNA testing was done on the spoon or the glass??? Totally incredible.

It appears the biggest question is about how the pineapple got into JBR?

Nice wrap up, well done!

Pineapple is finger food. I still think JB got up in the middle of the night hungry and went to the fridge by herself and used her fingers to get a snack from the container of pineapple.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by Zoey

Athena:

Good job. I was unable to watch the show, as it was on at 1:00 am here and it was way past my bed time!!

One thing that caught my eye and that I have always believed. The tea bag in the glass was perhaps indeed put in there by one of the many visitors. The advocates and many others brought food into the house, including fruit, sandwiches and drinks. Coffee was made as well. Perhaps hot tea was as well?? Just because something appears as it does, does not mean that it is the way it is.

Then why were there no other fingerprints on the glass besides Burkes? And none on the bowl besides Burkes and Patsys? Where were the pineapple "rinds" or containers that it came in? How do you know the advocates and others brought fruit, sandwiches and drinks in? Why was there only one bowl of pineapple and only one spoon? Why hasn't someone spoken up who was there that day and claimed knowledge of bringing the pineapple in? Or of having a glass of tea?
Just because something appears as it does, does not make it anything more than what it actually is.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

Then why were there no other fingerprints on the glass besides Burkes? And none on the bowl besides Burkes and Patsys? Where were the pineapple "rinds" or containers that it came in? How do you know the advocates and others brought fruit, sandwiches and drinks in? Why was there only one bowl of pineapple and only one spoon? Why hasn't someone spoken up who was there that day and claimed knowledge of bringing the pineapple in? Or of having a glass of tea?
Just because something appears as it does, does not make it anything more than what it actually is.

Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee. After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner—and possibly wiping away important evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14394982...wsweek/page/2/

I have another link that says sandwich and fruit was brought it. I am searching. Patience please.

[shill]

The spoon wasn't the proper serving spoon for that bowl and the glass was not the kind you serve tea in. It appears that someone, like a child maybe, who does not understand or care about etiquette, had gotten these items out.
With only Burkes fingerprints on both items, IMO it appears he would be most likely the person who got all of these items out.
So how has he hidden this big secret all this time?

[KingCoyote]

I think Shill is pretty close to nailing it with the idea that a child, like Burke probably got the bowl out the refrigerator and tried to make himself a glass of iced tea, which Patsy has stated he liked, and Burke having no idea how to make iced tea, just improvised. The question of how is it he has kept that to himself is a good one. The other question is where did the pineapple come from in the first place? I would speculate that a guest at the 12/23 party brought it in another container. It got transferred to the bowl that night very innocuously by someone at the serving/food table. Patsy may have unknowingly touched it moving things around in the refrigerator. Burke and a friend had a mid afternoon snack on Christmas Day after being told there would be no lunch due to the big Christmas breakfast and dinner would be at the Whites, so don't ruin your appetite and be a good guest. Burke probably just left the glass and bowl on the table due to short attention span of a 9 year old and didn't want to take the blame and get all mixed up in the JBR killing, so he figures he's kept his mouth shut for a few days, why not try a few weeks, then a few months....just forget about it....maybe he just blocked it out in order to stay completely on the sidelines in this matter. The flaw in this logic is that one would assume that the BPD talked to everyone at the 12/23 party and found out where the pineapple came from. My guess could be that by the time the BPD got around to everyone at the party, the evidence about the pineapple was public and whoever did bring it kept their mouth shut to stay out of this mess. How does that sound for an off the cuff guess?

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

Nice wrap up, well done!

Pineapple is finger food. I still think JB got up in the middle of the night hungry and went to the fridge by herself and used her fingers to get a snack from the container of pineapple.

Then why does Patsy not even acknowledge having pineapple in the house?
And the pineapple was not in a "container". It was in a bowl. And the bowl was not in the fridge.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by Zoey

Early that morning, police had called in a team of victims' advocates, trained in helping families through traumatic situations, who arrived with bagels and coffee. After using the kitchen, the advocates began tidying it up, a law-enforcement official told NEWSWEEK. One friend helped clean the kitchen, wiping down the counters with a spray cleaner—and possibly wiping away important evidence.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14394982...wsweek/page/2/

I have another link that says sandwich and fruit was brought it. I am searching. Patience please.

I'm not sure how "Newsweek" would know what food, if any, was brought in but thanks for the link.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

I'm not sure how "Newsweek" would know what food, if any, was brought in but thanks for the link.

I may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but doesn't the article say a law enforcement official told Newsweek? So I guess that is how they know, because they were told?

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by Zoey

I may not be the brightest crayon in the box, but doesn't the article say a law enforcement official told Newsweek? So I guess that is how they know, because they were told?

I guess so. Do you think it's some kind of coincidence that only Burke and Patsys prints were on the bowl and that JB had eaten pineapple shortly before her death? She certainly couldn't have eaten it if the advocates brought it in so where did she get it from? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond a coincidence to me.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

I guess so. Do you think it's some kind of coincidence that only Burke and Patsys prints were on the bowl and that JB had eaten pineapple shortly before her death? She certainly couldn't have eaten it if the advocates brought it in so where did she get it from? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond a coincidence to me.

I understand what you are saying, and I am still searching for the story about the sandwiches and the fruit, but please keep in mind, I never said they brought in pineapple. I just was answering your post about why the glass with the tea bag was there. I thought perhaps one of the many people who came and went out of that kitchen could have perhaps used it to put the tea bag in.

[aussiesheila]

Originally Posted by Athena

There was fiber from the cord used to tie JBR's hands found on HER bed which suggested that she had been tied to the bed which is believed to be more consistent with an intruder rather than a family member.

Hi Athena, I have heard about the fibre on the bed before but have never been able to find out what original report that it came from.

I am an IDI and I am interested to know whether it has been established beyond doubt that there was a ligature fibre in the bed or not because it affects the kind of IDI scenario I envisage. Do you remember any more details about this? Thanks.

[aussiesheila]

Originally Posted by Athena

Brown fibers were found on the duct tape not tan; presumed to have come from some kind of work gloves that also were never found.

I'd also like to know -- which is it? Black or blue fibers or any color that fits a speculation?

Athena, I believe there were photos taken outside the Ramsey house after the murder showing a brown coloured glove on the ground. I say this because I am sure I read about it in one of the later police interviews of either John or Patsy and the interviewers were asking questions about whether the glove belonged to them.

I too have noticed that the fibre colours keep changing. It would be great to have access to the original lab reports rather than having to rely on what the police say the lab reports said.