Housekeeper and more...

[createthis]

Just thinking of basics here. Why is this case so difficult to solve? The killer obviously knew Ramsey's (or it was the Ramsey's), the house., $118. etc. the suspect list shouldn't be long to go through. I believe the killer made the 911 call the night of the Xmas party to get estimate of time for police to arrive etc. So this murder was premeditated. I don't think anyone writes a 3 pg note "after" a killing? Linda P. interests me. (and her spouse) If what was written in "PMPT" was true from Linda...she notes "I have my ladies" if she uses ladies, she would use the word "gentlemen". Get it? She said Patsy has a hard time doing the laundry...I'm just trying to point out what she makes references to...ya know , what's on Linda's P's mind when she is giving a statement. She says "I always came through the side door" through the kitchen. She had a key of course. Easy entry. She knows the alrm wasn't set. Talk about premed- she had Jonbenet's dog stay with her before she took it over to the neighbors..she "knew" the dog would not be there "that night" to make any noise. She says Patsy laid her purses on the "spiral staircase" when she wanted them changed out. Linda had access to anything personal she wanted through Patsy's purses!!! And again..her and Patsy share this "spiral staircase thing". Linda also states (night of Xmas party) the men gathered around the "spiral staircase" she doesn't note what the women were doing or where they "were". She has painting on the brain...she notes about Patsy's painting classes and Johnnie B's coloring, "in the kitchen" She talk about taking the paint tote herself down into the basement the night of the Xmas party! She knew EXACTLY where it was! She knew about the load of laundry upstairs(i think) and the barbie gown could have been attached to the blanket. She asks for $2,000 right before Xmas? Couldn't show up for work because of fight with sister? Strange! Was she trying to see if Patsy would give her large amount of money so for staging reasons? Think about how easliy she could have done this and pulled it off. Only her or the Ramsey's fit the missing pieces to this puzzle. They had the most access to anything that happened that night. It's just that obvious and simple. Why does this have to be so hard, complicated and strewn out? There's so much more about Linda P. I could write, I would suggest reading her statements about Ramsey's and everything. And try to read between the lines about what she says that is key. And that damn "spiral staircase was known to Linda P. and Patsy, wether it was purse changes(Patsy and Linda) or men "gathering" around it(Linda stating). That is where the ransome note was found!!! I don't care about DNA on JB panties! Gosh, it could have come from the manufac. who knows. It shouldn't stop or create progress in the case. I wonder how much "foreign DNA" I have me right now! SBTC-signed by the caretaker? Who knows!

[KingCoyote]

Createthis:

According to PMPT P 634 Paperback edition Linda Hoffman Pugh was cleared by forensics evidence. I am not sure of the specifics but I am quite sure they cooperated fully with the investigation including fingerprinting, physical evidence, handwriting samples, DNA, clothing, duct tape, clothing, maybe even lie detector tests and of course they had an alibi...each other.

Apparently Lou Smit, working for the District Attorneys office reopened the investigation of the Pughs and came up with nothing. In fact Linda Hoffman Pugh testified in the Grand Jury. Apparently the prosecutors thought enough of her to call her as a credible witness.

Another logical reason to clear them: why kidnap the child of someone who just agreed to loan you money? Yes, I know that some people are greedy and diabolical but most of that is in the movies when it comes to kidnapping.

As I said, I do not know all of the police reasoning but apparently the Pughs were investigated thoroughly.

KingCoyote

[createthis]

That's seems plausable to me KingCoyete about them being cleared, but Linda's prints and DNA had to be all over that house too. You asked "why kidnap a child if someone just loaned you money?" that's the perfect strategy to throw off anyone from thinking about them asking for $118,000.00 just so one would ask that very question you just did.
I was also wondering about the check Patsy was supposed to leave Linda, she said she would leave it for her on the table in the butler's kitchen for her to pick up on her next scheuled visit on Dec. 27th. Did she ever leave it? Was she going to write it that morning before they left to Michigan?
I aslo believe Patsy and John lied about not giving her pineapple for fear of being more linked to the murder, maybe that is the only thing they are hiding and it makes them act like they are hiding a little something. Then they couldn't go back and say OK well we did give it to her because then they would look guilty all over again. JMO. Also Linda does refer to Jonbenet as acting like a spoiled brat. But that doesn't necassarily mean anything, but I certainly wouldn't write something like that about the child I was caring for in a book the nation could read. Makes one wonder if Linda could of placed the note on the steps subconsciuosly because that's where Patsy would leave her purses to for Linda to change out. Can't figure out about them clearing her handwriting samples though! Wheh no I see the difficulties of this case! Linda also mentioned somewhere(sorry no link) that PR was ambedextrious, that also seems odd to me she mentioned that. Why I wonder. (maybe to plant in people's heads she wrote note lefthanded?) And do we all at any given time have foreign DNA under our fingernails? Anyone know the answer please!

[shill]

She might have wanted the loan before Christmas to buy gifts, and Patsy ruined their Christmas by waiting to give her the money, so she sought revenge.

[KingCoyote]

Createthis:

I am working on it diligently. See Threads of A Newbie with an Idea, Did the Ransom Note Grow Legs?, and Scarves, Scarves and More Scarves. I am trying to put a scientific/organizational analysis to this case to help solve it.

KingCoyote

[createthis]

Thanks KingCoyete!
Because they make a big deal about JB having foreign DNA under her fingernails when maybe all humans do at any given time, and if she was pawing at her killer or came into contact with the killers skin then if killer was fully dressed or wearing gloves she would have had to touch or scratch the killer's face, maybe? Don't recall any marks on the parents face or hands, but I haven't seen proof of this either. Thanks again KC, let us know what you find.

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

You do have a point there...unfortunately there are a lot of "points" that keep popping up in this case.

KC

[createthis]

Originally Posted by shill

She might have wanted the loan before Christmas to buy gifts, and Patsy ruined their Christmas by waiting to give her the money, so she sought revenge.

That and or highly jealous of the Ramseys(or over time came to secretly hate JB because she was so jealous of her) and had ample time to plot and plan this over-exaggerated kidnapping and access to every single thing about this case you could imagine. Maybe she got JB from bed told her she had a "special visit" from Santa and lured her downstairs groggyeyed on her way down grabs a blanket out of the dryer for JB. She gets to basement with her and JB screams when she sees Merv, maybe and he stun guns her? Linda quietly leaves to conduct rest of plan and wait for the time to get ransom money somehow while Merv waits in the secluded room with JB tied up. That's why they threatened so much in note to not call anybody, so Merv could slip out basement window when Linda got money transfer done and then they would tell ramsey's she was in the basement tied up and unharmed if the plan was carried out correctly. Something went wrong with Merv in basement and ended up killing and staging scene? and Linda knew Patsy would be up early. Merv waited at the house while Ramsey's where out visiting Xmas night. Linda made sure everyone at her house was asleep before she left. Maybe it was a joint effort. Maybe they had devices to communicate with each other and Merv herd Patsy make frantic 911 call (he panicks) and knew he had so many minutes to get out from there because Linda made fake call at Xmas party on the 23rd. Ok, could be far fetched and not put together well, but this case is cold and I was just throwing it out there.

[createthis]

Just wanted to also note that the author who wrote in the note "your not the only FATCAT around" is someone who had very little money and jealous of JR's wealth or what they "thought" to be great wealth to them because they are fairly poor.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

She might have wanted the loan before Christmas to buy gifts, and Patsy ruined their Christmas by waiting to give her the money, so she sought revenge.

She needed the money to pay her rent, if I remember correctly. Besides, killing someones kid because they ruined your Christmas is just a bit extreme, dontcha think?

[createthis]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

She needed the money to pay her rent, if I remember correctly. Besides, killing someones kid because they ruined your Christmas is just a bit extreme, dontcha think?

She had just gotten a Xmas bonus from Patsy of $300 or more. She then asks her for $2000 to pay her rent? A housekeeper doesn't have that high of a rent payment.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by createthis

So this murder was premeditated.

What part of the crime shows premeditation? The killer didn't write the ransom note prior to entering the home and didn't bring with himself or herself the items necessary to perpetrate the crime. Even JonBenet's head injury wouldn't have required premeditation, it could have been done accidentally or purposely in anger. If it was done in anger, you then have motive (anger/rage), but still no premeditation. Entering the home required premeditation, yet none is exhibited in the crime.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by createthis

She had just gotten a Xmas bonus from Patsy of $300 or more. She then asks her for $2000 to pay her rent? A housekeeper doesn't have that high of a rent payment.

And you know this...how?

[createthis]

Originally Posted by Tober

What part of the crime shows premeditation? The killer didn't write the ransom note prior to entering the home and didn't bring with himself or herself the items necessary to perpetrate the crime. Even JonBenet's head injury wouldn't have required premeditation, it could have been done accidentally or purposely in anger. If it was done in anger, you then have motive (anger/rage), but still no premeditation. Entering the home required premeditation, yet none is exhibited in the crime.

You are right about that and I meant to insinuate premeditation of the kidnapping not of the killing. (fake 911 call) etc. Sorry bout that. I also believe the killer wrote the note inside.

[createthis]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

And you know this...how?

I wrote in earlier post I read it in PMPT. And then I wrote "if what Linda wrote is true".... blah blah blah. Then I came up with my opinion from what Lawrence Shiller wrote about what she said.

[shill]

How was she going to pay off $2,000.00 dollars? Seems to me it was as if she felt she deserved a bigger bonus, maybe part of John's big bonus. Since she didn't get but $300, she may have felt slighted having to watch them live their aristocratic lifestyle while she wiped JB's butt.
Besides, everyone knows it's always, "the butler did it".

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

How was she going to pay off $2,000.00 dollars? Seems to me it was as if she felt she deserved a bigger bonus, maybe part of John's big bonus. Since she didn't get but $300, she may have felt slighted having to watch them live their aristocratic lifestyle while she wiped JB's butt.
Besides, everyone knows it's always, "the butler did it".

Shill...you crack me up. LHP was thoroughly investigated and there was no evidence found that she was involved. NONE.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by createthis

You are right about that and I meant to insinuate premeditation of the kidnapping not of the killing.

IMO. this crime was never about any actual kidnap attempt. The whole kidnap scenario implied by the ransom note was all part of the staging. Think of all the offender did in that home, apparantly at ease, without any fear of detection. The offender was quite comfortable being in that home. And yet, this alleged kidnapping intruder fails to accomplish the very thing he or she went there for in the first place. I find it extremely unlikely that an intruder would risk all that, do all that, and then fail to actually take JonBenet from the home, which he or she could have easily done. This crime wasn't about a kidnap attempt at all, the writer of the ransom note just wanted it to appear like it was.

[shill]

Originally Posted by Tober

IMO. this crime was never about any actual kidnap attempt. The whole kidnap scenario implied by the ransom note was all part of the staging. Think of all the offender did in that home, apparantly at ease, without any fear of detection. The offender was quite comfortable being in that home. And yet, this alleged kidnapping intruder fails to accomplish the very thing he or she went there for in the first place. I find it extremely unlikely that an intruder would risk all that, do all that, and then fail to actually take JonBenet from the home, which he or she could have easily done. This crime wasn't about a kidnap attempt at all, the writer of the ransom note just wanted it to appear like it was.

If JB's death was not part of the kidnapping plan, then the plan would have to be aborted. The best thing to do at that point is hide her body so they will think she has been kidnapped, giving you time and space from the crime scene.
To presume the intent of the crime was murder, when it may not have been, can lead you down a path of deception.

[KingCoyote]

As far as $2000 being a high amount for rent, LHP's rent could have been in arrears for a couple of months. I am a landlord and depending on your state laws it can take several months to evict someone. Sometimes, although I hate to do it, I will allow a tenant an extra couple of weeks to get rent in, but never more than that. Maybe her landlord was nicer and carrying her for a month or two. Maybe she had her priorites such that Christmas presents came before rent.

Just a few thoughts and opinions

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

As far as $2000 being a high amount for rent, LHP's rent could have been in arrears for a couple of months. I am a landlord and depending on your state laws it can take several months to evict someone. Sometimes, although I hate to do it, I will allow a tenant an extra couple of weeks to get rent in, but never more than that. Maybe her landlord was nicer and carrying her for a month or two. Maybe she had her priorites such that Christmas presents came before rent.

Just a few thoughts and opinions

KingCoyote

DOI p19 ppbk
Linda said her sister, who was alsoher landlord, was going to evict her if she didn't come up with past-due rent. She asked Patsy if she could borrow twenty-five hundred dollars to cover it.

[Louisadelmar]

Interestingly in ST it is $2000 and some was to be used to pay rent, some for truck parts and some for Merv''s teeth.

p 38 ppbk

Wonder what PMPT says?

[createthis]

I thought of rent being backed up also. I just truly believe there is a key connection to what she said about Patsy leaving her purses on the "spiral staircase" for her to change out. Why not the kitchen table? Why not the counter or a desk? Patsy left her purses for LHP to change out "once a week" on the "spiral staircase". Anyone else find this interesting? That is where the RANSOM NOTE WAS LEFT. Patsy or LHP hmmm...I find that key for either party.

[Louisadelmar]

In DOI p 19 it goes on to say the check was supposed to be left on the counter.

[createthis]

Originally Posted by createthis

I thought of rent being backed up also. I just truly believe there is a key connection to what she said about Patsy leaving her purses on the "spiral staircase" for her to change out. Why not the kitchen table? Why not the counter or a desk? Patsy left her purses for LHP to change out "once a week" on the "spiral staircase". Anyone else find this interesting? That is where the RANSOM NOTE WAS LEFT. Patsy or LHP hmmm...I find that key for either party.

Any opinions on this?

[shill]

Originally Posted by createthis

Any opinions on this?

What exactly is involved in changing her purse out, I'm clueless?

[createthis]

Originally Posted by shill

What exactly is involved in changing her purse out, I'm clueless?

That Patsy (once a week) would leave her purses for Linda on the spiral staircase. The ransom note was left on the spiral staircase.

[shill]

Originally Posted by createthis

That Patsy (once a week) would leave her purses for Linda on the spiral staircase. The ransom note was left on the spiral staircase.

So would she dump out everything in one purse and put it in another purse? Is that what "changing out" means?
And if so, would she see check stubs of John's showing the $118,000.00 bonus?

[createthis]

Originally Posted by shill

So would she dump out everything in one purse and put it in another purse? Is that what "changing out" means?
And if so, would she see check stubs of John's showing the $118,000.00 bonus?

Yes-That is what "changing out" means. Maybe she saw a stub, maybe she didn't. She could have gotten that info. a number of ways. Overhear a conversation or see it written or typed somewhere. Maybe she took one of her credit cards and used it a McGuckin's hardware store, that way the reciept would say Patsy Ramsey...no trace back to her. My roomate is of the opposite sex and I have used their credit card without ID. Scary! But it worked...at Wal-Mart even.
As to spiral staircase, I was giving one up to the RDI's. Making a point that if Patsy put her purses there for Linda "once a week", that she had a habit of putting things there...like...let's say a ransom note?
Or LHP had a habit of picking up her purses from the spiral staircase and new Patsy (would be first one up(she even stated that in PMPT) and knew Patsy would find it there because that is where she left things (purses)obviously. Either way I think it is a coincidence that shouldn't easily be dismissed, whether you are RDI or IDI or neither.

[shill]

The bonus amount of $118K showed up on every pay check John got.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by createthis

Yes-That is what "changing out" means. Maybe she saw a stub, maybe she didn't. She could have gotten that info. a number of ways. Overhear a conversation or see it written or typed somewhere. Maybe she took one of her credit cards and used it a McGuckin's hardware store, that way the reciept would say Patsy Ramsey...no trace back to her. My roomate is of the opposite sex and I have used their credit card without ID. Scary! But it worked...at Wal-Mart even.
As to spiral staircase, I was giving one up to the RDI's. Making a point that if Patsy put her purses there for Linda "once a week", that she had a habit of putting things there...like...let's say a ransom note?
Or LHP had a habit of picking up her purses from the spiral staircase and new Patsy (would be first one up(she even stated that in PMPT) and knew Patsy would find it there because that is where she left things (purses)obviously. Either way I think it is a coincidence that shouldn't easily be dismissed, whether you are RDI or IDI or neither.

Well, we do know that LHP was the first person Patsy tried to implicate.
The idea that the ransom note was placed on the spiral staircase was to give the impression that the killer knew Patsys morning routine of coming down that staircase on her way to the kitchen. LHP, as far as I know, would have no reason to know what Patsys morning routine was. She would not have been there that early in the morning to know such a thing, wouldn't you think? Unless Patsy slept until after 8 or 9 every day. I'm not sure what time housekeepers begin their jobs but I don't think it would be any earlier than 8 or 9. Patsy has said that she was usually the first person up in the morning. Of course, I don't know about what hours housekeepers have, since I have never had one. I've been one before but I can't remember the hours. I don't think we came in any earlier than 8, though.

[Louisadelmar]

So, under these circumstances you wouldn't mention your housekeeper?

DOI p 19 "Linda Arndt asks is there is anybody who might be upset with me - personally or otherwise? Anybody who has threatened me." [He mentions thinking of Jeff Merrick and their falling-out. Also calling Gary Merriman (Human Resources at Access) for names of recently fired employees. All very sensible. Then it goes on...] "The police ask Patsy these same questions about who might have been angry or acting strangely, and she begins to think about our cleaning lady. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had called Patsy a couple of days before Christmas, very distraught and in tears. Linda said her sister, who is also her landlord, was going to evict her if she didn't come up with past-due rent. She asked Patsy if she could borrow twenty-five hundred dollars to cover it. "

PMPT p11. "Det. Arndt began questioning John Ramsey about whether he could think of anyone who might be involved in the kidnapping. Ramsey gave the names of several ex-employees of his company, Access Graphics. Patsy Ramsey, who was sitting with Rev. Hoverstock in a corner was at times confused and dazed. She mentioned to Arndt that her housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had asked to borrow some money just a few days before. Linda had a key to the house and had major money problems."

ST p26 "When detectives asked the parents who might be responsible for the disappearance of JonBenet, Patsy promptly gave the name of her housekeeper for the past two years.

[KingCoyote]

I don't find anything unusual about mentioning a housekeeper who has recently related to me that she has money problems. I find nothing unusual about mentioning anyone that has a key. In fact, I would expect Police to eventually ask me for a list of all my friends and people with whom I have had contact for many previous weeks, months and years. I just don't think I would write a book about it. I would not be happy if the police specifically used my mentioning their name as a way to get people to turn on me. Sometimes its unavoidable that the person whom you name will figure it out that you mentioned them and simply not understand.

I was burglarized once and the first thing the police asked was who has a key besides you. I had a maid at the time and they checked her out and found no reason to suspect her but she did quit on me very shortly after that. Hmmmm... The police did continue a small investigation because others in the apartment complex were also burglarized in a short period of time and found that a new apartment manager fired a maintenance man but forgot to collect his keys first.....(Dummy). They never recovered my stuff though.

Just a few thoughts and a little story

KingCoyote

[bullmoose]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

So, under these circumstances you wouldn't mention your housekeeper?

DOI p 19 "Linda Arndt asks is there is anybody who might be upset with me - personally or otherwise? Anybody who has threatened me." [He mentions thinking of Jeff Merrick and their falling-out. Also calling Gary Merriman (Human Resources at Access) for names of recently fired employees. All very sensible. Then it goes on...] "The police ask Patsy these same questions about who might have been angry or acting strangely, and she begins to think about our cleaning lady. Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had called Patsy a couple of days before Christmas, very distraught and in tears. Linda said her sister, who is also her landlord, was going to evict her if she didn't come up with past-due rent. She asked Patsy if she could borrow twenty-five hundred dollars to cover it. "

PMPT p11. "Det. Arndt began questioning John Ramsey about whether he could think of anyone who might be involved in the kidnapping. Ramsey gave the names of several ex-employees of his company, Access Graphics. Patsy Ramsey, who was sitting with Rev. Hoverstock in a corner was at times confused and dazed. She mentioned to Arndt that her housekeeper, Linda Hoffmann-Pugh had asked to borrow some money just a few days before. Linda had a key to the house and had major money problems."

ST p26 "When detectives asked the parents who might be responsible for the disappearance of JonBenet, Patsy promptly gave the name of her housekeeper for the past two years.

Does anybody besides myself see in these quotes from three sources the fact that only the Twister's version seems slanted so as to put Patsy in a negative light? But then its a twisterpiece of investigative literature, isn't it?

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by bullmoose

Does anybody besides myself see in these quotes from three sources the fact that only the Twister's version seems slanted so as to put Patsy in a negative light? But then its a twisterpiece of investigative literature, isn't it?

That was the point of the original post when I saved it. The strange sea change the same situation undergoes in its description.

[bullmoose]

And I couldn't agree more with your point if I tried.

[Tober]

Any theory that proposes a suspect must account for the known evidence (such as the fiber and handwriting evidence) in relation to that proposed suspect. How does LHP perpetrating the crime explain the fiber and handwriting evidence which points away from her?

[bullmoose]

Tober:While I do doubt that LHP was involved beyond being the housekeeper in the house where Jonbenet was murdered, I'm curious as to what handwriting and fiber evidence pointing away from her that you are referring to. I have no idea what you are talking of; please illuminate me.

[Tober]

Originally Posted by bullmoose

I'm curious as to what handwriting and fiber evidence pointing away from her that you are referring to.

The handwriting evidence suggests that the ransom note was written by Patsy. Fiber evidence indicates that Patsy was very involved in the staging of the crime. That is what I meant by fiber and handwriting evidence pointing away from LHP, as it doesn't point to her,
it points to Patsy.

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by Tober

The handwriting evidence suggests that the ransom note was written by Patsy. Fiber evidence indicates that Patsy was very involved in the staging of the crime. That is what I meant by fiber and handwriting evidence pointing away from LHP, as it doesn't point to her,
it points to Patsy.

No the handwriting evidence suggests she didn't write it. Per CBI, Secret Service and a host of others.