Scarves, Scarves and More Scarves

[KingCoyote]

I have noticed that the topic of scarves keeps repeating itself throughout this case, not only in the books written but especially in the Law Enforcement Interviews with both John and Patsy. Here is a list of what I found:

1. John Ramsey 1997 Interview with LE/BPD - Very early in the interview the detectives ask about the scarves Patsy gave as gifts at the 12/23 party; then ask about the scarf Beth gave to John; and then refer to black/plaid scarves in the sink area. Then the BPD make a point of telling John that they will also ask Patsy about the scarves.

2. Patsy Ramsey 1997 Interview with LE/BPD - At almost the end of the interview the BPD bring up the scarves given by Patsy as gifts and specifically refer to a representative scarf given to her husband.

3. John Ramsey 1998 Interview with LE/DA-Scarves are brought three times. First on P. 57 (scarves given as gifts); P. 65 John Fernie's scarf; and maybe P. 774 where the refer to a "cloth object" at the top of the stairs.

4. Patsy Ramsey 1998 Interview with LE/DA - Scarves are again discussed in two sections of the interview at PP 341/342 and again beginning at P. 525 where the scarves seem to move from photo to photo. (Note that the discussion beginning at P. 525 in PR's interview seems to be connected with the discussion in JR's 1998 Interview beginning at P. 505 where the plastic garbage bags seem to appear and move in photos.) [Also note that in PR's interview when she is discussing the moving scarf and realizes the photo was probably taken on 12/26 while the search for JBR is evolving she uses the exclamation "Oh God." I checked and found that another time she used the exclamation 'Oh God' was when she was reviewing Crime Scene Photos of JBR's bathroom where she notes JBR's balled up red turtleneck and then a crown or tiara. I found that coincidental.]

5. PMPT Page 81 - A reference is made to JAR's Red Scarves in the Wine Cellar.

Note that all scarves in discussion seem to be Red and Black in color and the predominant fiber evidence many use to point fingers at JR and PR just happens to be Red and Black colored fibers. Hmmmmm? I have also read and seen Autopsy photgraphs where a scarf has been used as a ligature device that could create the triangular mark on JBR's neck. Hmmmm?

6. Finally, in DOI P. 41 John places a "beautiful silk scarf" which he had "recently purchased" in JBR's coffin giving the appearance that he is "wrapping her in love."

The whole point of my Database project was to determine suitable data from which algorithms, which are nothing but repeat issues that logically have some correlation/cause-effect relationship to the matter at hand, can be determined. I am not patting myself on the back but do we have a "where there's smoke, there's fire" situation here or am I simply going nutso like Professor John Nash (played by Russell Crowe) in the movie A Beautiful Mind, and beginning to see things that aren't really there?

KingCoyote

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

I have noticed that the topic of scarves keeps repeating itself throughout this case, not only in the books written but especially in the Law Enforcement Interviews with both John and Patsy. Here is a list of what I found:

1. John Ramsey 1997 Interview with LE/BPD - Very early in the interview the detectives ask about the scarves Patsy gave as gifts at the 12/23 party; then ask about the scarf Beth gave to John; and then refer to black/plaid scarves in the sink area. Then the BPD make a point of telling John that they will also ask Patsy about the scarves.

2. Patsy Ramsey 1997 Interview with LE/BPD - At almost the end of the interview the BPD bring up the scarves given by Patsy as gifts and specifically refer to a representative scarf given to her husband.

3. John Ramsey 1998 Interview with LE/DA-Scarves are brought three times. First on P. 57 (scarves given as gifts); P. 65 John Fernie's scarf; and maybe P. 774 where the refer to a "cloth object" at the top of the stairs.

4. Patsy Ramsey 1998 Interview with LE/DA - Scarves are again discussed in two sections of the interview at PP 341/342 and again beginning at P. 525 where the scarves seem to move from photo to photo. (Note that the discussion beginning at P. 525 in PR's interview seems to be connected with the discussion in JR's 1998 Interview beginning at P. 505 where the plastic garbage bags seem to appear and move in photos.) [Also note that in PR's interview when she is discussing the moving scarf and realizes the photo was probably taken on 12/26 while the search for JBR is evolving she uses the exclamation "Oh God." I checked and found that another time she used the exclamation 'Oh God' was when she was reviewing Crime Scene Photos of JBR's bathroom where she notes JBR's balled up red turtleneck and then a crown or tiara. I found that coincidental.]

5. PMPT Page 81 - A reference is made to JAR's Red Scarves in the Wine Cellar.

Note that all scarves in discussion seem to be Red and Black in color and the predominant fiber evidence many use to point fingers at JR and PR just happens to be Red and Black colored fibers. Hmmmmm? I have also read and seen Autopsy photgraphs where a scarf has been used as a ligature device that could create the triangular mark on JBR's neck. Hmmmm?

6. Finally, in DOI P. 41 John places a "beautiful silk scarf" which he had "recently purchased" in JBR's coffin giving the appearance that he is "wrapping her in love."

The whole point of my Database project was to determine suitable data from which algorithms, which are nothing but repeat issues that logically have some correlation/cause-effect relationship to the matter at hand, can be determined. I am not patting myself on the back but do we have a "where there's smoke, there's fire" situation here or am I simply going nutso like Professor John Nash (played by Russell Crowe) in the movie A Beautiful Mind, and beginning to see things that aren't really there?

KingCoyote

In regards to your #4, please don't tell me that you feel because Patsy says Oh, God twice she must be hiding something? Regardless of where she said it in her interviews or what she was looking at could not possibly have any meaning other that the pictures were very disturbing to her. I can't post on here what I say on a regular basis when things upset me, but that doesn't mean anything other than that is what I say when I am upset.

[KingCoyote]

Zoey:

It appears that I did not make myself clear with my post. My apologies if I led you to believe any particular inference or deduction from 2 situations in which Patsy Ramsey reacted similarly. In no way am I implying any reason for her reaction.

The purpose of my post was to merely point out situations where the same events tend to repeat themselves. If I may refer you to some of my original posts,(See A Newbie with an Idea), my reason for entering the forum was to gain assistance in the formation of a database of information. As is stated in my later paragraph of the post to which you are replying, I am merely using some scientific analysis to establish algorithms within a suitable database to determine logical cause effect situations. My comments are intended to be neutral but, hopefully, thought provoking. As I have stated before in my previous posts I have drawn only two incontrovertible conclusions about the JBR death. They are 1. JonBenet Ramsey is dead. 2. I do not know who caused her death. I am trying to hold as steady to those beliefs as are possible but I cannot prevent "data" when grouped by obvious similarities from presenting subjective conclusions which others may draw.

Again, I apologize if my post offends you in any way.

KingCoyote

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

Zoey:

It appears that I did not make myself clear with my post. My apologies if I led you to believe any particular inference or deduction from 2 situations in which Patsy Ramsey reacted similarly. In no way am I implying any reason for her reaction.

The purpose of my post was to merely point out situations where the same events tend to repeat themselves. If I may refer you to some of my original posts,(See A Newbie with an Idea), my reason for entering the forum was to gain assistance in the formation of a database of information. As is stated in my later paragraph of the post to which you are replying, I am merely using some scientific analysis to establish algorithms within a suitable database to determine logical cause effect situations. My comments are intended to be neutral but, hopefully, thought provoking. As I have stated before in my previous posts I have drawn only two incontrovertible conclusions about the JBR death. They are 1. JonBenet Ramsey is dead. 2. I do not know who caused her death. I am trying to hold as steady to those beliefs as are possible but I cannot prevent "data" when grouped by obvious similarities from presenting subjective conclusions which others may draw.

Again, I apologize if my post offends you in any way.

KingCoyote

Oh no, your post did not offend me. I just was hoping that you weren't going down the road of, oh, she said this, she must be guilty. I have seen that too many times on too many forums.

Thank you for clearing that up for me. I appreaciate very much what you are attempting to do.

[LindaA]

KC & Zoey, I was just gong to post the same response. We are so used to seeing people deduce that PR is guilty if they read she so much as sneezed.

BTW, KC, thanks for sending me the database. I'm going to download it to a flash drive shortly.

[Eagle1]

January 1, 2007

Originally Posted by LindaA

KC & Zoey, I was just gong to post the same response. We are so used to seeing people deduce that PR is guilty if they read she so much as sneezed.

BTW, KC, thanks for sending me the database. I'm going to download it to a flash drive shortly.

Are you saying these scarves may have been used in (since we know The Thugee, for one example, had trademark scarves, yellow) some kind of ceremonies? You're raising a good point, I think. Will you just elaborate on it a little more? In the thread USES for a Celtic harp, I'm suggesting the possibility also, is that's what you're meaning.

Not claiming this is fact, of course, but is it possible they were experimenting with their very own new cult, borrowing some things from previous ones which have been around thruout history??? I can't think why. Do we feel it's possible? Why the apparent obsession with scarves, otherwise?

[shill]

Originally Posted by Eagle1

January 1, 2007

Why the apparent obsession with scarves, otherwise?

It's Colorado and it's cold and scarves are fashionable.

[KingCoyote]

Eagle1:
I am trying my darndest not to suggest anything. I am trying to let the evidence, however grouped or connected, to suggest what happened in this matter. I, too, have toyed with the idea of a ceremonial, ritualistic slaying but that is just too "outside the box" for an "inside the box" guy like me. I will reread the USES thread, though.


Shill:
I feel the weather does play a role in this case especially as to the "footprints/snow dusting" issue and possibly as to the clothing issue. I will think some more on the weather issue.

KingCoyote

[Athena]

Comments on the use of "oh, God:In her1997 interview she uses that phrase 7 times, in the June 1998 interview she uses this phrase 24 times and in the August 1998 phrase is used 25 times. It appears to me that it was used appropriately within the context. I did not however read it in connection with any of the "scarf" questions.

It seems the significance of the scarf issue is because the crime scene photos show them in different locations from their Christmas photos on their roll of film that was developed. The BPD did not take their photos until later in the day and who knows who moved the scarves. However I would think if the scarves had anything to do with her death they would not only have just not been moved but at least hidden?? Also it also seems that quite a few of those photos were not clear -- and if all of the men, FW, JF and JR had similar scarves who's to say who owned which scarf? The only one that seems absolutely clear to me is the one that JR's daugther Beth gave to him. JMO

[KingCoyote]

Athena:

Thank you!! Since my parenthetical reference was based on a very limited amount of actual reading, your much expanded research on the number of times the expression "Oh, God" was used seems to render harmless the use of that term. It seems that it should be taken in the context that it was so often found: simply as a logical and commonplace reaction. It also shows how an "off the cuff" reference without more thorough research can lead to all sorts of myths, rumors and misperceptions. I must be more careful in the future.

I am still thinking about the issue of scarves.......

I will, though, continue to offer up suggestions so we may all research the significance.

KingCoyote

[shill]

FYI; saying "Oh, God" repeatedly during sex on Sunday morning does not count as going to church.

[LadyFisher]

Originally Posted by shill

FYI; saying "Oh, God" repeatedly during sex on Sunday morning does not count as going to church.

Shill, you're a hoot! Your posts often make me laugh. And imho we can certainly use some lighthearted humor on this board! .........................................I have always wondered if the perp (which I believe to be an "intruder" didn't have on a shirt with red in it, since it was Christmas. Many men wear something with red in it at this time of year....were those fibers found ever conclusively matched with Patsy's? ...................Hope everyone here had wonderful holidays with their families! Coloradokares, how's your weather out there?

[KingCoyote]

LadyFisher:

Your post regarding clothing of the "intruder" (as opposed to the issues of clothing of the Ramseys) is an interesting one. I will be inserting that into my Database as an issue to consider. Good Idea LadyFisher!!!

KingCoyote

[KingCoyote]

I have debated posting this because it is very long and requires me to speculate in order to maintain a balance or neutrality between IDI and RDI.

Earlier in this thread I remarked about PR using the term "Oh God." Athena correctly pointed out that PR frequently used that term. I decided to analyze all times PR used the term to see if there was a pattern (algorithm) and any significant deviations. My figures were different than Athena's but that is neither here nor there. The number of times PR used the term "God,"
"Oh,God," or "Oh my God" within each of her interviews are as follows:

1.1997 Interview (IV) - 7 times
2.1998 Interview " - 21 times
3.2000 Interview " - 0 times
(I excluded use of the term "gosh" in all interviews and note that the 2000 interview was mostly a debate between Lin Wood and T. Haney, and in which Patsy was usually quite reserve in her answers.)

I then developed three categories of usage of the term "Oh God" for initial cause/effect analysis. Those categories were:

1. Accenting a statement - used 5 times (Ex.-98 IV P.601 - Line 19 "...By God you would have known...")
2. Display of Frustration - 6 times (Ex. - 98 IV P. 248 - L. 17 "...God, I just can't remember..."
3. Excited Utterance - 17 times (Ex. - 98 IV P. 156 - L. 8 "...Oh my God, they're talking about me..."

I then analyzed the 17 excited utterances for any deviations from the usual comment of "Oh God." I found two utternances with significant other reactions besides the comment itself. Both were in connection with viewing a Crime Scene Photo (CSP) or in regards to the content of a CSP. These were also the only times PR used the term "Oh God" with all of the dozens of CSPs shown to her.

1. In 98 IV 266 Line 7 PR reacts to a crown/tiara? next to the red turtleneck sweater in JBR's bath, begins crying and takes a break.

2. In 98 IV 527 L20 PR reacts to an red/black scarf and the fact that it is in a picture JR may have inadvertently snapped on the morning of 12/26. Within this discussion PR asks "Do you want to see me" and I assume she is speaking to her Attorney Burke. It sounds like Atty. Burke wants PR's attention. At line 533 Atty. Burke calls for a break at 12:01 which is not that unusual except when he started the IV that morning he suggested that if at nooon...12:20 they were close to being finished, we would "forge on." He didn't even ask how long was left but unilaterally called for a break.

I felt these two deviations from the somewhat mundane situations where only the statement "Oh God" was used were significant enough to warrant further analysis. Here is where I must speculate to remained balanced between IDI and RDI. The process becomes a little "strained" but bear with me.

In a light most favorable to PR and the IDI camp these two situations can be dismissed by saying that the photos or discussions immediately prior to the breaks and/or crying were simply highly emotional situations. This is logical.

In a light not so favorable to Patsy and more favorable to the RDI camp the analysis is much more complex. In this scenario you assume that PR somehow recognizes the scarf and tiara within the photos as connected to the death of JBR. (How or why I won't go into right now. It is just an assumption. Analysis requires assumptions.)

Earlier I have hypothesized that a scarf may have been a strangulation instrument. In order to be that the scarf must be of somewhat thin material to be knotted (or maybe bunched up) to cause the triangular mark on JBR's neck. But a scarf as one of two strangulation devices and events, i.e. before and after the headblow would answer the question of which came first, the headblow or the strangulation and could explain the wider swath of abrasions on the right side of JBR's neck underneath the ligature furrow. I have a theory as to how that happens but I don't have enough room here.

This analysis begs the question: where is this "thin material scarf?" Well, look to PP341-342 of the PR 98 IV and you see a discussion of a red/black scarf in CSP #67 that is described as "a ribbon," " a sock" or something all bunched up. Shortly after that PR volunteers that JR's scarf is a heavier wool meaning the scarf in question must be of a lighterweight material. Could this be a "thin cloth" scarf; even a silk scarf? By the way CSP #67 photo was also part of the discussion that called for that quick lunch break. Enough about scarves for a moment.

As to tiaras or crowns we have seen them in connection with PR (Miss. W. VA) and JBR (pageants with tiaras normally present.) We have also seen a tiara/crown - as well as a silk scarf - being placed in JBR's coffin. Those incidents are not quite enough to be a pattern but are merely coincidental.

The biggest question is how you fit the tiara (and the scarf) into the events of strangulation. Since everybody and their brother has come up with a cause of the abraisions on JBR, let me throw another one in. The points of a crown/tiara, if dull and rounded enough not to cause a puncture, could cause metal friction burns or abrasions in a circular fashion. Also, imagining the descending points of a tiara as to height and size (and spaced 3.5 cm apart) two of those might cause the two dissimilar sized abrasions on the back while the top point of the tiara caused the one on JBR's cheek. Now you must somehow dress JBR in a scarf and a tiara while she is being accosted and then get these items back to where they are seen in the photos. I have already developed a sequence of events (strictly following the evidence and statements of the case) that puts JBR in the scarf and tiara and how they abrasions and strangulation marks are caused but I am not so far as to getting the items back to where they were photographed. But I am working on it.

This analysis is merely a hypothetical based upon my opinions, logic and conclusions. It is not intended to be fact but offered only for discussion purposes. It is intended, as best is possible, to let the evidence present a hypothesis.

Have at it Forum

KingCoyote

[Vanillyn]

Oh God.

[thewhitewitch1]

Very interesting, Kingcoyote. When I read that portion of the interview, I thought that Patsy was more disturbed by the sight of the balled up turtleneck. At that point, when shown the picture, didn't she abruptly change the subject?
The idea that the tiara caused those marks is quite interesting. Is it possible she may have fallen on it? I have also always had an interest in the frequent mentioning of scarves and am suspicious of why she was buried with one that had only been "recently purchased". It is interesting, in light of what you've written, that she was buried with the tiara as well. I had not thought of the possiblity that it may have been evidence. I believe the silk scarf played a part in her death. I believe she was strangled with it before the garrote was put in place.
I have to say that I am very impressed with the dedication you have to this case and you have come up with some things that I am sure none of us have thought of before. I look forward to hearing more.

[KingCoyote]

In reviewing Crime Scene and Autopsy photos the most striking strangulation mark to me was the "triangular" mark and the wider swath of marks on the right side of JBR's neck below the ligature line. In one side view photo I noted that the swath marks appeared to be on the same circumferential line as the triangular mark. This indicated to me that one device may have caused both marks. Since the ligature furrow was so distinctively different in appearance I contemplated two strangulation devices.

Next, I just sat and stared at the "triangular" mark. It wasn't a true triangle but it was more like a possible isosceles triangle or better yet an isosceles trapezoid. It then hit me. It looked like a knot men sometimes use when tying a necktie. But females don't wear neckties; they wear scarves.

Staying constant with my unscientific analysis (See Did the Ransom Note Grow Legs? Thread), I took an oversized handkerchief - since I don't own a scarf - and began tying it around the area immediately above my knee. (After having worked in Retail Mens' Clothing at one point in my life I found that frequently the area immediately above your knee is roughly the same circumference as your neck.)

Anyway, after rather tightly tying the kerchief around my knee with the knot at the underneath inside portion of my knee paralleling the front left side of JBR's neck I simply inserted my hand between the kerchief and my skin and pulled/tightened for several few seconds. Three things showed up: 1. A series of knuckle indentions where my hand was inserted 2. A somehwat consistent line of swath marks paralleling about 2/3 of the circumference of the kerchief and 3. An indentation at the knot. This pattern did not match the pattern on JBR's neck from what I could see in a front, right side and back view of JBR's neck. (I can't remember finding a left side view of the neck.)

I began hypothesizing the strangulation of a person but my thoughts turned to cutting off the blood supply which ties into the discussion involving the amount of blood in the headwound. You cut off blood flow with a tourniquet. To transform the scarf into a tourniquet you need a twisting device but I had no 4-6 inch piece of wood immediately available in the room. I simply retied the knot in a much looser fashion, inserted my hand and started to twist clockwise and counterclockwise to a 90 - 180 degree point to tighten the scarf.

I noticed that there was considerable "strangulation." effect. There was still an indentation at the knot, but no knuckle indentations on the top of my knee because the scarf and its newly created "V" or "X" portion created by the twisting shielded my skin from the knuckles and if I pulled ever so slightly to the left I left more of a swath mark on the right side of my knee. I had, to some very limited extent, recreated the pattern on JBR's neck.

I then realized that the wider swath of scarf material could limit JBR's ability to find the outer edge of the ligature to present scratch marks or alternatively present very limited or limited and imperceptible scratch marks.

The big question, in order to connect the scarf back to its location in the crime scene photos, (which started all this discussion), is Why do you remove the scarf from the crime scene? because no scarf, to our knowledge, was in the wine cellar (or was it...what was that deleted entry in the 12/26 Search Warrant..was it the Duct Tape or something else?...just food for thought.) Here we must start speculating as to events and participants for purpose of analysis of the movement of the scarf only. This is not an analysis to determine Whodunnit, it is an analysis of the scarf . I realize the two go hand in hand, but I must keep them separate if, for no other reason, to prevent a digression into the battles between two rivaling factions: the IDIs and the RDIs. I must, in order to remain neutral and balanced, present scenarios that are both favorable and not so favorable to each faction. Again as a disclaimer, this speculation is merely my opinion and logic for analysis and discussion purposes. It is in no way meant to imply any guilt on the part of any party to this matter. My scenarios are as follows:

1. You don't need to remove the scarf because there was no scarf involved. OK, without a scarf you can still explain the wider swath of marks on the right side of JBR's face as friction marks of initially applying and adjusting the "cord" ligature. Fine, that's very logical and sequential as to events and activities but, explain the triangular mark. I discount the gold cross from causing the mark since there is no obvious "cross indentation." I then hypothesized that JBR did manage a defensive maneuver and inserted her finger, probably from her left hand, in between the cord and the skin. But there is no evidence of injuries to either set of fingers on either hand from the autopsy.

2. An Intruder who is just a burglar accosted and struck JBR after being surprised but stays to stage a scene of a Kidnapping Pedophile attack to divert attention away from his profession of burglary. This assumes

a. no scream occurred because most logically a burglar would hightail it out of there after a scream or

b. a scream occurred and the burglar -or pedophile- bolts to the top the basement stairs, hears no noise or movements toward his/her area and returns to the basement to complete his tasks, however sadistic or "staging" they may be.

3. A Ramsey did it. (Now the scream becomes irrelevant or at least mitigated in its importance, since John is under the effect of Melatonin and sound travels to the Stanton house rather than upstairs and Patsy is the "sleep queen" according to one of JR's interviews.) A parent could rationalize, even in a traumatic, high stress situation, that no parent would put a child to bed with such a naturally dangerous "ligature" as a scarf encompassing their child's neck. A parent could extend into the theory of staging a pedophile kidnapping attempt by replacing the scarf ligature with a cord ligature. The parent, in this confusion, could leave the scarf on the first floor just like someone left the flashlight out in the open.

4. An Intruder did it, a scream occurs, the intruder flees, the parents arrive at the scene, go into shock, somehow realize that they could surely be blamed for this since one, or both, see no obvious entry/exit by an intruder, and proceed to stage the scene. (This idea of "dual perpetrators" comes from a much later point in my Organizational Analysis where I create Stages and Phases of the Corpus Delicti and insert the Matrix of Participant Hypotheses where, if there can be separate Stages and Phases of the act, there can be separate participants within each Stage and Phase.) Here the Ramseys, again, just leave the scarf out in the open ala flashlight.

OK...Next up (I think): Why would JBR being wearing a scarf? (I will get to crowns and tiaras at a later time...one step at a time.)

[LindaA]

I'm impressed.

[KingCoyote]

Thank You LindaA but.....I forgot a very, very important scenario in No. 1 of my most recent post. That is the shirt that JBR was wearing. You will not need to utilize a scarf if you believe that the first strangulation device was the shirt JBR was wearing. Let me analyze that now:

The shirt could clearly and logically cause the wide swath of marks on the right side of JBR's neck, but can it cause the triangular mark? In order for it to cause the triangular mark it must do so by bunching and be part of a first strangulation event, not just one stranulation event, IMO.

I note that the shirt she was wearing did not possess a collar. A collar would go a long ways as to being able to bunch in a trapezoidal isosceles triangle fashion since a collar would have more that one distinctive edge. A collar could be of thicker material which could aid in the severity of the triangular mark as compared to the other marks.

The shirt cannot be part of the only or second strangulation event which includes the ligature cord because the shirt is not bunched up under the ligature in the autopsy photos nor is there any evidence that JR removed the ligature allowing the bunched material fall. It had to have been used as a first strangulation device and then a loosening of the first strangulation "grip" would allow the bunching, if any, to fall to natural position.

I also don't remember that the shirt was represented in the autopsy as being torn or abnormally stretched or anything out of the ordinary. I do not know the material from which the shirt is made but I would think such strong force to create the triangular mark could disfigure the shirt in some way.

Just a few more thoughts and opinions....(like I don't have enough of them...hear the Coyote yip yip yip yip yip

[nuisanceposter]

KC, ST points out in his book (hb, page 165) that the police reports say Patsy said on 12/26 that JonBenet went to bed in the red turtleneck that was found balled up on the sink by her bedroom. Patsy changed her story about that in the police interview of April 30, 1997, where she said JonBenet had gone to bed in the white Gap shirt.

So perhaps the collar of her red turtleneck, had it actually been what she was wearing at the time, was the source of the mark. I've always thought that someone roughed her up by grabbing her collar and that's what made that mark. I also think that's why the ligature was used - it's staging to cover up any signs of abuse that may have already been on her neck.

We really need to see the pictures from the White's party and the official police reports. I doubt we ever will.

[KingCoyote]

NuisancePoster:

I could have sworn that I saw a statement somewhere that Steve Thomas had to admit that JBR wasn't wearing a red turtleneck at the White party because a photo from the Whites party was referred to in a deposition. I have quickly scanned the sections of the Steve Thomas Depo especially P358 and 359 regarding this discussion. Apparently ST still proclaims that JBR's red turtleneck as that which she "may have indeed worn home." I noted that Lin Wood did not address this statement (which is somewhat strange because if LW could slam ST with anything about the red turtleneck it sure would be proof that she didn't have it on at the party) but merely chose to address the fact that ST was wrong in his assertions or had no first hand knowledge as to the turtleneck being wet much less urine stained.

In any event this makes the red turtleneck a possible "shirt" for "stangulation" purposes. But I still run into the cause of the triangular mark. A turtleneck which would have a thicker collar would probably still be very pliable cotton, wool or acrylic which wouldn't IMHO bunch in with such definitive lines as to produce the triangular mark. But then again....truth is much stranger than fiction.

Lets keep it in mind.

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/stchat.html
[…]
crimeADM: Was JonBenet definitely wearing the red turtleneck at the Whites' party?

stevethomas: no, she was wearing the white top in which her body was eventually found the next day.
[…]

[KingCoyote]

Louisadelmar:

Well, it just goes to show....multiple heads are better than one....just not on the same body....

KingCoyote

[KingCoyote]

I have been continually rethinking my idea that a knot in a scarf may have caused the pronounced triangular mark on JBR's neck. I am not so sure that even a knot is rigid enough to make such a pronounced and defined mark. I am thinking that possibly a clasp of some type, maybe even a funnel type clasp, which got turned upside down during a strangulation event could have caused the mark.

Continuing with the issue of clothing and what JBR was wearing at her death or at the White's party, I have been analyzing the red turtleneck sweater vis a vis the white sequin shirt.

We know there was a disagreement between PR and JBR as to wearing the red turtleneck. We know that JBR was found in the sequin shirt. We know ST alleged that PR stated JBR was put to bed in the red turtleneck, that statement allegedly coming from officers at the scene early that morning. We know the red turtleneck was photographed in JBR's bath balled up on the sink with a tiara, the photo/tiara eliciting a strong emotional response from PR.

To further set the foundation for my analysis, we can note that ST stated in 11/00 to a CRADM chat that JBR wore the sequin shirt at the FW party. (emphasis added) [See http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/stchat.html] We have very little info and no photos from the party but apparently FW has given ST and Lin Wood private info. (sorry, no cite on FW giving LW private info)

In STDeposition P356-358 (9/01), ST, being questioned by LW, admits he had no proof of red turtleneck being wet/wet with urine which was part of his bedwetting/rage theory that PR killed JBR. But ST also states that part of his theory included "the red turtleneck which she may have indeed worn home ." (emphasis added)

As another part of my foundation for this analysis the STDepo has considerable discussion by all attorneys that indicate a desire for confidentiality under a protective order of the court. Police seem to want confidentiality to protect personal info as well as, possibly, case info. Atty. Diamond for ST wants the whole Depo confidential. (See STDepo P441-442)
Even LW remarks that he tried to phase it in a way to avoid confidentiality and he doesn't want to face a judge about violating an order. (paraphrased) I also noted that at P218 of STDepo that areas of confidential nature were to be discussed around the same time as the issue of the turtleneck. [There were two specific areas of the Depo redacted as to B. McReynolds and possibly ST's income/social security #, but those may not address LW's careful phrasing. I would speculate that the LW's questions were not so carefully phrased as to require deletion.]

Could this careful phrasing be why LW did not jump all over ST's hypothetical assumptions that JBR wore the turtleneck home? LW did not even address that issue. He concentrated on the wet/wet with urine issue only. LW seems waaaaaaaaay too thorough and competent to miss an opportunity like that.

Now introduce a discussion about the exceptions to the hearsay rule and the admissibility of statements heard, especially statements of PR as to the turtleneck being worn to bed, by the BPD. If my understanding of two exceptions is correct then excited utterances and utterances made while an event is unfolding (res gestae, I think is the latin word) are admitted for the "truth of the matter asserted." In other words weight can be given to these statements as truthful because someone blurts them out in an emotional situation and doesn't have time to think up an answer. If a court might accept PR's first statements as true, so can I.

Next, consider why the JBR red turtleneck is balled up with a tiara next to a sink. If PR wanted JBR to wear the red turtleneck, wouldn't if be logical to wear a clean turtleneck from a drawer to a party than a turtleneck balled up next to a sink. (But then again, PR wears red turtlenecks two times in a row.)

OK, just because JBR wore the sequin shirt AT the White's party doesn't preclude the possiblity that she wore something different home. All you need is a quick change of shirts to accomplish this. Here is where the pure speculation comes in.

Could PR have taken JBR's red turtleneck to the party anyway because, lets say, she wanted a photo of her and JBR dressed alike for a Christmas memory? Hey, maybe she took a recent tiara JBR won with her as well as one of PR's tiaras to recount JBR's recent Christmas Pageant wins. (I remember two recent JBR wins; the Little Miss Christmas on 12/17 and the SW Plaza on 12/22). Remember now that a tiara was found balled up with the turtleneck next to the sink.

The problem with this is that we now have to find a convoluted way to get JBR back into the sequin shirt but this whole case is convoluted so what the heck.

Just a few thoughts and opinions none of which contain any express or implied theory or statement of fact as to who killed JBR.

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

I have been continually rethinking my idea that a knot in a scarf may have caused the pronounced triangular mark on JBR's neck. I am not so sure that even a knot is rigid enough to make such a pronounced and defined mark. I am thinking that possibly a clasp of some type, maybe even a funnel type clasp, which got turned upside down during a strangulation event could have caused the mark.

Continuing with the issue of clothing and what JBR was wearing at her death or at the White's party, I have been analyzing the red turtleneck sweater vis a vis the white sequin shirt.

We know there was a disagreement between PR and JBR as to wearing the red turtleneck. We know that JBR was found in the sequin shirt. We know ST alleged that PR stated JBR was put to bed in the red turtleneck, that statement allegedly coming from officers at the scene early that morning. We know the red turtleneck was photographed in JBR's bath balled up on the sink with a tiara, the photo/tiara eliciting a strong emotional response from PR.
[...]
Just a few thoughts and opinions none of which contain any express or implied theory or statement of fact as to who killed JBR.

KingCoyote

Off the top of my head -

On page 218 there are 2 redacted Q&As. Based on the subsequent talk they sound financial.

15 Q. (BY MR. WOOD)
16
17 A.
18 Q.
19
20 A.
21 Q.
22 MR. DIAMOND: He's doing well by
23 some standards.
24 MR. WOOD: He's doing well by my
25 standards. You don't need to put that on
220
1 the record in case my wife, present wife, and
2 last wife number four sees it.

My impression is Wood did not have free rein in what areas he could question ST. Probably because this depo was in connection to the Wolf suit and not the Ramsey suit. I’ll see if I can find the relevant part.

Though it doesn't defy any laws of physics that Patsy could have taken the red shirt to the Whites I wouldn't put money on it. If she had done soshe'd have brought it iin with her and we'd have heard from the Whites via Thomas that Patsy arrived carrying the red shirt and a tiara. The tiara being by the sink doesn't ring any bells. Is that in a depo or a book?

I'm not surprised by a strong emotional response from Patsy at seeing the red shirt. Both because of the contrast between her life when the shirt was put by the sink and perhaps great sadness that one of her last one on one interactions with JonBenet was a squabble.

I think Thomas very much wanted to keep it from the public that he was a source for Bardach and others as well as the fact he didn't do much about making sure his book was up to date regarding the facts of the case before it was published. I believe Carnes mentions something about this when she releases the depo.

[KingCoyote]

Louisa:

Thanks for the info. I had made note of that and agree it appears to be financial.

My above post #14 goes into some detail about the "Oh God", crying, taking a break reaction to seeing the sweater and the tiara. PR actually had this reaction to the tiara as opposed to the sweater. The basis for that analysis was 1998 PR Interview Page 266. Please note, though, that that one reaction of PR was analyzed along with about 25-30 other similar reactions.

I am not sure what to make of all of this to be honest with you. I am just trying to link pieces of evidence and statements and photographs, etc., together to see if there is some kind of fit.

I could be imagining those pictures in the clouds again.

KC

[KingCoyote]

Earlier I hypothesized about a tiara/crown causing the abrasions on JBR's face, back and leg and I decided to analyze tiaras and crowns to see if there was any pattern or connection to the crime. Other than my own hypothesis connecting a tiara to the abrasions, I must admit there is little mention of Tiaras throughout the case for analysis or discussion. I will list what I have found and let the reader decide for him/herself.

(All book references are to paperback edition)

1. PMPT P. 123 - Pam Griffin statement: JBR loved to look at crowns...the prize of prizes...overall pageant winner.

2. PMPT P. 52-54 - PR statement on 12/27 to Pam Griffin's daugher Kristine: All JBR ever wanted to do was win a crown like yours.

3. PMPT P. 52-54 - Kristine brings PR one of her crowns - JBR's favorite. (Unstated as to which specific crown was given)

4. ST P. 57 - Pam Paugh removes tiaras from Ramsey home on 12/28. (Unstated as to which tiaras were removed)

5. DOI P. 40-41 - Pam Paugh places Little Miss Christmas Tiara in JBR coffin
(This must be one of the crowns/tiaras Pam removed from Ramsey House but there is no statement I could find as to where that Tiara was in the Ramsey house. In DOI P. 32/33 JR makes note that Pam Paugh did retrieve the Medallion that JBR won for the talent portion of the Little Miss Christmas Pageant from JBR's bedroom but makes no mention of Pam retrieving any Tiaras.)

6. Patsy Ramsey 1998 Interview with Law Enforcement P. 266 - PR reacts emotionally to the sight of a tiara/crown next to the red turtleneck sweater balled up on the sink in JBR's bathroom (Crime Scene Photo), remarks "Oh, God," begins crying and takes a break from the interview.

Other than a reference to the Miss America crown that fell from Phyllis George's head when she was walking down the runway and seen by PR on TV, an event with no connection to the crime, but did influence PR as to pageants, thats all folks. While researching the tiaras I did note a large number of references and comments regarding pageant activity but that is another project for the back burners and I have others on the front burners for the near future.

KingCoyote

[Louisadelmar]

I have faith in you and I'll listen...but I'm not so sure about this crown/tiara causing an abrasion idea.

Here are a bunch:

http://www.victoryfashion.com/Catego...eadpieces&CN=7

and beyond the fact each prong? seems awfully smooth to cause an abrasion they also seem like they would bend fairly easily. It would be nice to see a lineup of JonBenet's crowns.

[KingCoyote]

Louisa:

Thanks for the vote of confidence and patience. I will admit the crown/tiara causing the abrasions is a longshot. First I have to create a sequence of events that even puts JBR in a crown. Then a sequence of events that causes the abrasions and there is very little evidence of a struggle by JBR. Then I have to cause three sets of abrasions, one set with a noticeable abrasion on her cheek with the other abrasion being almost imperceptible from the pictures I have seen; then you have to move down to her back/side and then move to the back of the foot/heel. I don't "see" that much of a struggle by JBR. I think she was incapacitated fairly quickly by a first strangulation event using a scarf which sapped her of her strength and consciousness, at least temporarily, until such time as she screamed whereupon she was hit in the head and subsequently strangled more definitively with the cord. JMHO

I have looked at the cluster ring theory and can "see" that if PR was wearing two rings on one hand but they would have to be on her forefinger and ringfinger of her right hand and I haven't seen any screen captures of PR wearing rings that way. But how do you sequence the events to get one set on her face, back and foot? A half missed slap on the face, a open palmed slap/punch in the ribs and a pull on the leg? Holding JBR down while you pull on the garrote or scarf (?).

The same goes for a stun gun...if you believe a stun gun you must believe in three "stuns" and thats if you ever find a stun gun to truly match and believe that no one heard the noise of the stun gun, especially the first "stun" which may have been in JBR's room. Do you "stun" her on the back of the heel while she is trying to crawl away on carpet which should have caused noticeable rug burns?

I just don't know what type of objects could cause such marks.

KC

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by LadyFisher

Shill, you're a hoot! Your posts often make me laugh. And imho we can certainly use some lighthearted humor on this board! .........................................I have always wondered if the perp (which I believe to be an "intruder" didn't have on a shirt with red in it, since it was Christmas. Many men wear something with red in it at this time of year....were those fibers found ever conclusively matched with Patsy's? ...................Hope everyone here had wonderful holidays with their families! Coloradokares, how's your weather out there?

The CBI lab found the fibers on the duct tape, in the wrappings of the garrote handle and in the paint tray to be consistent with fibers from the jacket Patsy had been wearing to the Whites' party on that fatal night.

Aside from these hard facts: do you really believe a sexual predator celebrated Christmas in red cothing before going to snuff JB's life out?

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/stchat.html
[…]
crimeADM: Was JonBenet definitely wearing the red turtleneck at the Whites' party?

stevethomas: no, she was wearing the white top in which her body was eventually found the next day.
[…]

But wasn't the issue about Patsy Ramsey lying to the investigators about what JB was wearing to the party/ to bed?
Didn't Patsy state somewhere that JB had either been been wearing the red turtleneck to the Whites' party (or to bed, I can't remember exactly, but will look it up)?
This is a crucial issue! For how many times has it been posted on the forums: if only the Whites' Christmas party pictures would be released, but there is Steve Thomas (who of course has seen the actual Christmas party pictures) saying that she definitely wore the white sequined top to the Whites' party, the clothing in which her dead body was later found.

Where did ST say that? Was it in some chat room? Could you give me a link? TIA!

[rashomon]

Originally Posted by rashomon

But wasn't the issue about Patsy Ramsey lying to the investigators about what JB was wearing to the party/ to bed?
Didn't Patsy state somewhere that JB had either been been wearing the red turtleneck to the Whites' party (or to bed, I can't remember exactly, but will look it up)?
This is a crucial issue! For how many times has it been posted on the forums: if only the Whites' Christmas party pictures would be released, but there is Steve Thomas (who of course has seen the actual Christmas party pictures) saying that she definitely wore the white sequined top to the Whites' party, the clothing in which her dead body was later found.

Where did ST say that? Was it in some chat room? Could you give me a link? TIA!

Louisadelmar: In my excitement over this issue I overlooked that you had already given the link to the chat room where ST participated.

[Kor]

Originally Posted by rashomon

Aside from these hard facts: do you really believe a sexual predator celebrated Christmas in red cothing before going to snuff JB's life out?

Well, a lot of sexual predators tend to be opportunists, why do many pedophiles want to be a school teacher, a Santa Claus, a coach, a foster parent, a celebrity for children, or a volunteer to help at places of crisis like 2004 Indian Ocean’s tsunami where many children lost their parents? If McReynolds weren’t the ones who killed JB, then maybe someone else in Santa clothing did it, I was thinking of Mervin, Linda’s husband dressed up as Santa. I recalled JB had a note of secret visit with Santa; I am questioning if it was given by Linda or someone in her circle.

[shill]

Originally Posted by rashomon

But wasn't the issue about Patsy Ramsey lying to the investigators about what JB was wearing to the party/ to bed?
Didn't Patsy state somewhere that JB had either been been wearing the red turtleneck to the Whites' party (or to bed, I can't remember exactly, but will look it up)?
This is a crucial issue! For how many times has it been posted on the forums: if only the Whites' Christmas party pictures would be released, but there is Steve Thomas (who of course has seen the actual Christmas party pictures) saying that she definitely wore the white sequined top to the Whites' party, the clothing in which her dead body was later found.

Where did ST say that? Was it in some chat room? Could you give me a link? TIA!

Why would she lie about the red sweater? Could she be mistaken with all that was going on and her chemo?
What would she gain by lying about what JB wore to the party, when she would be aware that there were numerous witnesses and photos.

Unless your saying she was lying so she would get caught lying so everyone would know she was a liar, there is no point for her to lie.

There is no logic to your argument that she lied about the sweater.
If she got it wrong, it is logical to conclude she was mistaken.

Please explain to me the logic in her lying about JB wearing the red top, since it seems to escape me.

[KingCoyote]

Shill:

You are correct; there really is no logic to PR lying and she would easily be caught in the lie...unless for some reason JBR was changed from the white sequin shirt on the way home and then changed back later after the killing. I can't even come close to concocting a reason for that. But then again we really haven't heard a lot from the people at FW's party or the party itself, the people who were there and definitely haven't seen any pictures. Could there be something going on that everybody, and I mean everybody, police and all people at the White's party are keeping there mouth shut about? I don't remember who was at the party but it would take one heckuva "conspiracy" of silence to keep something quiet with that many people involved.

Maybe PR did change JBR into the red turtleneck for some pictures and simply had it in her mind that JBR was in the red turtleneck when she got home and simply made a mental error when she first spoke.

Just a few thoughts and opinions

KingCoyote

[thewhitewitch1]

If JB was not asleep when she got home, could she have worn the turtleneck to bed and urinated on it? She could have then changed back or been changed back into the white shirt.
The turtleneck was photographed "balled up" in her bathroom. I wonder what, if any, significance there is to that.
Perhaps Patsy did not have the presence of mind to think about the clothing JB wore to the Whites and that there could be photos of her and/or that she would be questioned about it by the LE. Again...they were not criminal masterminds and were panicked. IMO
Shill...Patsy was in remission at the time. There was no chemo.

[KingCoyote]

tww1:

I really wonder what a red turtleneck is doing balled up in the sink when PR so badly wanted JBR to wear it...Can't you just imagine PR saying...."OK...JoniB...go get that balled up red turtleneck I saw on your bathroom sink and wear it to the party tonight??!!

Shame on you KC...shame shame shame

[Louisadelmar]

I think in her panic that morning she remembered what she'd planned, thought about, and mentally pictured that JonBenet would wear to the Whites. The last minute switch to the white shirt would not be nearly as firm a memory as the red shirt/black Gap set that she'd planned for JonBenet to wear.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by KingCoyote

tww1:

I really wonder what a red turtleneck is doing balled up in the sink when PR so badly wanted JBR to wear it...Can't you just imagine PR saying...."OK...JoniB...go get that balled up red turtleneck I saw on your bathroom sink and wear it to the party tonight??!!

Shame on you KC...shame shame shame

Maybe "someone" balled it up and threw it there because they were a bit ticked off.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by Louisadelmar

I think in her panic that morning she remembered what she'd planned, thought about, and mentally pictured that JonBenet would wear to the Whites. The last minute switch to the white shirt would not be nearly as firm a memory as the red shirt/black Gap set that she'd planned for JonBenet to wear.

Maybe but she was very clear in her statements about wanting JB to wear that shirt and JB refusing to. She remembered that quite well.
She remembers quite clearly what she wants to remember. IMO