Do you think there has been evidence that has been withheld?

[LindaA]

We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.

We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.

Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.

Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?

Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by LindaA

We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.

We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.

Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.

Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?

Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.

If memory serves me right, there are over 3,000 items in a warehouse that have not been completely looked at by anyone. Seems like that would mean there are over 3,000 items that the DA knows about, but the list has not been released to the public.

[Louisadelmar]

It would be interesting to know if the letter to the Westword editor was accurate and the DNA found in the underpants was 10 to 12 times the concentration of 'trace' DNA found in other packages.

Added: Tried to post the link but for some reason I keep getting "Http error" messages.

[bullmoose]

In my opinion, there doubtless a great deal of evidence being withheld in this case; I think that what Karr was saying from Thailand matched what they knew, but had not ever released to the public, which is one of the reasons they wanted him back for DNA testing. Iwould love to see that link, Louisdelmar, if you can get it to post, it sounds fascinating.

[andU]

If there weren't items kept from the public this case may as well be closed, there is no way it could be solved with what is known. I don't think the BPD has too many intelligent officers, but perhaps the DA, or one of them in the past ten years has shown enough 'kidneys' to hold back ... but, then the 'word' is that it hasn't even been tested or investigated... wish I could find that link where I read that, I'm sure it was a Boulder newspaper.

[Louisadelmar]

Got this link from FFJ. There must be something hidden in the post that stops a direct transfer from Westword. Or maybe its just my computer ignorance. Scroll about halfway down. The section title is "Pucker Up"

http://www.westword.com/Issues/2006...ws/letters.html

[Ames]

Originally Posted by LindaA

We have never seen the pictures that were taken at the White's party on Christmas day which would show what the Ramsey family were wearing that day and also how JBR's hair was styled.

We've never seen autopsy photos of anything other than JBR's hands, neck and areas adjacent to them.

Parts of the autopsy have been redacted.

Do you feel these items have been purposely with held from the public? Are there other items that may also have been kept secret?

Yes, I know what DA Lacy said after the JMK episode, but I'm sure the items I mentioed do exist and are in LE custody. I'm wondering if there are other items as well.

Yep, I believe that alot of evidence has been withheld. Remember on the "48 Hours" Special with John Ramsey (the recent show, a couple of weeks ago), didn't they say that John Mark Karr was lured with a photo taken of JB and Patsy...and it was taken right before she died? It was mailed to Karr, by that guy, Tracey. I wonder when that picture was taken...and if it may have been one that was taken at the White's Christmas party. The voiceover said that it was the last photo taken of her. I just now thought about that...I didn't think much of it when I was watching the show. Anyway...I would LOVE to know where those pictures are...and how JB's hair was fixed at the party. That would answer alot of questions...(IMO)

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by Ames

Yep, I believe that alot of evidence has been withheld. Remember on the "48 Hours" Special with John Ramsey (the recent show, a couple of weeks ago), didn't they say that John Mark Karr was lured with a photo taken of JB and Patsy...and it was taken right before she died? It was mailed to Karr, by that guy, Tracey. I wonder when that picture was taken...and if it may have been one that was taken at the White's Christmas party. The voiceover said that it was the last photo taken of her. I just now thought about that...I didn't think much of it when I was watching the show. Anyway...I would LOVE to know where those pictures are...and how JB's hair was fixed at the party. That would answer alot of questions...(IMO)

They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.

And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Zoey

They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.

And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?

Oh, I thought that they said that it was the LAST photo taken of her before she died. Fleet White has a roll that was taken at his party....of JB and Patsy....and THOSE would have been the last photos of her....not the Christmas morning ones. Maybe they didn't mean the VERY last one...who knows. I am sure that Fleet White turned those pictures over...because he gave one to investigators of JB and Patsy (to show what she was wearing at the party...I guess they used it as evidence to show to Patsy, and to ask her if thats what she remembered wearing to the party). Anyway...he has turned over the pictures....so, its not Fleet that is hiding evidence. (IMO)

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by Zoey

They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.

And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?

I hope you understand that Fleet and Priscilla White befriended them invited them to social events and dinner. They have done more than perhaps any other in trying to see to it that JonBenet has justice. Its not a deep dark secret. To imply this is simply wrong. He has not hidden anything if anything he has been the most vocal. Fleet and Priscilla White have been cleared and are of no interest to the case except that as witnesses.

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by Zoey

They showed the photo that was sent to Karr. You might have blinked or something. It was the photo taken on Christmas morning. The last photo taken of JB and Patsy.

And just like everything else about the White's, the pictures and questioning seem to be hidden away, for no one's eyes. That is what I would like to know where that is. Why is everything that has to do with Fleet White a deep dark secret? What is he hiding?

If the photo was taken on Christmas morning they were not at the Whites. They were at home. That picture has been seen many times nothing sinister about that. They did not go to the Whites till evening. Everyone would like to see any photos taken at the Whites. Perhaps that is evidence and sealed away? What I can tell you is this if the police or office of the DA wanted any such photos if indeed any were taken, they either have them or could obtain them without a problem. Respectfully my question is this if you befriended someone and their daughter ended up dead. Would you wish for your life to be smeared and thrown under a bus of suspicion by that set of friends without cause . Believe me the Whites were scrutinized. One day they may well get their chance in a court of law. I personally hope that they do. They have persued justice for JonBenet relentlessly . To this day.

[shill]

Originally Posted by Coloradokares

I hope you understand that Fleet and Priscilla White befriended them invited them to social events and dinner. They have done more than perhaps any other in trying to see to it that JonBenet has justice. Its not a deep dark secret. To imply this is simply wrong. He has not hidden anything if anything he has been the most vocal. Fleet and Priscilla White have been cleared and are of no interest to the case except that as witnesses.

How were they cleared?

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally Posted by shill

How were they cleared?

lol - DNA? They had an alibi - each other?? JMO

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by Coloradokares

If the photo was taken on Christmas morning they were not at the Whites. They were at home. That picture has been seen many times nothing sinister about that. They did not go to the Whites till evening. Everyone would like to see any photos taken at the Whites. Perhaps that is evidence and sealed away? What I can tell you is this if the police or office of the DA wanted any such photos if indeed any were taken, they either have them or could obtain them without a problem. Respectfully my question is this if you befriended someone and their daughter ended up dead. Would you wish for your life to be smeared and thrown under a bus of suspicion by that set of friends without cause . Believe me the Whites were scrutinized. One day they may well get their chance in a court of law. I personally hope that they do. They have persued justice for JonBenet relentlessly . To this day.

I didn't say the photo was taken at the White's and I know they were at home. Nor did I say there was anything sinister about it. Ames asked what photo was sent to Karr. I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.

And most of what happened with Fleet White with the Ramseys was brought on by Fleet White himself. CK, I feel that you know them personally or you are related to the Whites somehow, and to be honest, I am tired of reading your posts about how great they are and about being thrown under the bus. IMO Fleet White has protested way too much. Fleet White is at the top of my suspect list. Has been for a long time, but this is JMO.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Zoey

<snipped>
I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.

Fleet White supposedly took some of JB and Patsy together at his party. It was a picture of the both of them that he gave to investigators....for evidence as to what Patsy was wearing. (I am sure that Patsy didn't deny what she was wearing, but the investigators wanted a picture to show to her, just to make sure). So, the pictures that Fleet took, would be the last ones of them together. Too bad they haven't been released.

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by Zoey

I didn't say the photo was taken at the White's and I know they were at home. Nor did I say there was anything sinister about it. Ames asked what photo was sent to Karr. I was explaining to Ames that the one they showed on TV was the one of Patsy and JB on Christmas morning. They said it was the last picture taken of Patsy and JB together.

And most of what happened with Fleet White with the Ramseys was brought on by Fleet White himself. CK, I feel that you know them personally or you are related to the Whites somehow, and to be honest, I am tired of reading your posts about how great they are and about being thrown under the bus. IMO Fleet White has protested way too much. Fleet White is at the top of my suspect list. Has been for a long time, but this is JMO.

I believe you said last photos which the ones that morning at home may not have been last photos. Pardon my misunderstanding as it is believed photos were taken at whites. I do NOT know the Whites. I am as equally tired of reading your posts about how awful the Whites were when you don't know them from ADAM!!. None of you do. I at least know people who are well acquainted with the Whites. You feel free to leave White at the the pinnacle of your suspect list. I don't know if we shall ever see this case concluded but if we do. Then and only then shall we see the Whites sealed testimony and evidence. Personally I think if it was prosecutable against the Whites they'd be serving time by now..... JMO

[shill]

Originally Posted by Coloradokares

I believe you said last photos which the ones that morning at home may not have been last photos. Pardon my misunderstanding as it is believed photos were taken at whites. I do NOT know the Whites. I am as equally tired of reading your posts about how awful the Whites were when you don't know them from ADAM!!. None of you do. I at least know people who are well acquainted with the Whites. You feel free to leave White at the the pinnacle of your suspect list. I don't know if we shall ever see this case concluded but if we do. Then and only then shall we see the Whites sealed testimony and evidence. Personally I think if it was prosecutable against the Whites they'd be serving time by now..... JMO

So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by shill

So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.

Exactly Shill. Those people who knew the Ramseys said nothing negative about them either. However, I have read excerpts from various people who described White's behavior as bizarre and totally irrational and this came from people who knew the Whites. It is possible FW had nothing to do with JBR's death and just as possible that he did. JMO

[Athena]

Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg

[Ames]

Originally Posted by Athena

Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg

Thank you Athena, for posting that. (I cried when I saw that picture again...thinking that JB had no idea that it would be her last morning alive!) She and Patsy look so happy!! HOW SAD!!! There are other pictures though, that were taken of Patsy with JB at Fleet's party....darn it...I just wished that they would be released. I am just curious as to JB's hairstyle at the party...I would be happy just to find that out. (Looks like the investigators would have thought to ask the other people that attended the party about JB's hair....they may have, and that could be just another piece of evidence that is being kept from the public....who knows). Thanks again!

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by Athena

Just so everyone is clear; this is the picture that is referred to the picture sent to JMK. It was taken Christmas morning while JBR was still in her pajamas and what was shown in the documentary:

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/doc250.jpg

Thank you Athena. That is the picture I was referring to, I just failed to follow through with a link. Will make sure I do so from now on, so there is no confusion.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by shill

So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.

I totally agree.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.

I don't know the Whites so I can't base my opinion on their innocence on whether they are good people or not. I can base it on the fact that there is no evidence of their involvement and no motive.
Whether the Ramseys are/were good people or not is a moot point. It was their home that their child was found dead in and there IS evidence that they may have killed her. That's the difference between the Whites and the Ramseys. IMO

[Ames]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

I don't know the Whites so I can't base my opinion on their innocence on whether they are good people or not. I can base it on the fact that there is no evidence of their involvement and no motive.
Whether the Ramseys are/were good people or not is a moot point. It was their home that their child was found dead in and there IS evidence that they may have killed her. That's the difference between the Whites and the Ramseys. IMO

I second that....my thoughts exactly. If JB had been found dead in the White's home...then THAT would be a different story.

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by shill

So people who know the Whites say they are good people, so we can't bash them. But people who know the Ramseys say they are good people, and they're fair game.
You need to take your emotions out of your opinion to be taken seriously.
You seem to drift farther and farther from the truth even though you think you're closer to it then anyone posting here.
And I don't need to hear your tired story of how you are not RDI or IDI because no one is buying it.

You can and do bash whomever you wish anytime you wish without any seeming hesitation. Why? Not that you will hear the truth in what I am saying but I'll tell it to you anyway. I base my opinions on what I have seen across the years . In addition to some of the opinions of those who I know. Do your friends opinions of others mean anything to you. Mine do to me as well. Its how life is. Its hard not to when you have sat down with a banana nut muffin and spice tea and helped them through grief. Yes grief. The murder was more than headlines to some out here. The fact is there is no evidence as far as I am concerned that would indicate to me that those who knew the Whites were wrong and they are killers. As to the Ramseys I am not going to repeat it Shill. Hold whatever opinion you wish. I mean you no disrespect at all. Its just I thought we were to repectfully present our opinions. Even when those opinions would disagree. I can live with those forum requirements. Would you be willing to do the same? I am not bashing you. You just don't see things from my perspective because you did not live here. Maybe no one can unless they do.

[shill]

Originally Posted by Coloradokares

You just don't see things from my perspective because you did not live here. Maybe no one can unless they do.

You could never serve on a jury for this case because your point of view has been corrupted by hearsay and opinions. That's all I'm saying.

[thewhitewitch1]

Originally Posted by shill

You could never serve on a jury for this case because your point of view has been corrupted by hearsay and opinions. That's all I'm saying.

None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?

[shill]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?

You're exactly right. Apparently she has heard the Whites are to good to be suspects, so that's good enough for her.
Good thing you can't bring people to trial based on whether people like them or not.

[Eagle1]

Originally Posted by Zoey

If memory serves me right, there are over 3,000 items in a warehouse that have not been completely looked at by anyone. Seems like that would mean there are over 3,000 items that the DA knows about, but the list has not been released to the public.

Wow, that's a lot of information. "All I want for Christmas" is just a little of that!

[andU]

Originally Posted by thewhitewitch1

None of us could serve on a jury for this case because we all have our own opinions; whether "corrupted by hearsay" or not. So why single CK out?
She is much closer to this case than we are and has heard and seen things that we have not. Living where she does, how could she not let what she has seen and heard help form the opinion that she has?

Other than second person unproven as fact information, we all have access to the same information. I would prefer the official information to gossip or someone's opinion if it were to be considered fact. However, we are all here to share opinions and thoughts....CK has a right to hers, but she shouldn't get upset when someone else's doesn't agree with her. I have deep reservations regarding the innocence of the Whites, myself.

[nuisanceposter]

Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by andU

Other than second person unproven as fact information, we all have access to the same information. I would prefer the official information to gossip or someone's opinion if it were to be considered fact. However, we are all here to share opinions and thoughts....CK has a right to hers, but she shouldn't get upset when someone else's doesn't agree with her. I have deep reservations regarding the innocence of the Whites, myself.

andu I would really like for you to please bring up and repost any posting that I made that were disrespectful. Where I called anyone a name or questioned their intelligence etc...for not agreeing with me. I totally respect that you have deep reservation regarding the innocence of the Whites. That is of course your right. However ask yourself this. Isn't it more like others getting upset at me because I have some opinions that are possibly affected by personal experience and what you call local gossip. Please also take your own advice regarding getting upset when someone does not agree with you. The reason I don't agree is 3 fold. Evidence... Reputation and personal Just living it is the short way of saying it.

[andU]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?

The only thing I have to go on is my gut feeling and the lack of information or the information that hasn't been made public. It leaves room for qustions, ya know? I'm not pointing at them, by any means, but until more information is provided I will remain suspicious of them.

[andU]

Originally Posted by Coloradokares

andu I would really like for you to please bring up and repost any posting that I made that were disrespectful. Where I called anyone a name or questioned their intelligence etc...for not agreeing with me. I totally respect that you have deep reservation regarding the innocence of the Whites. That is of course your right. However ask yourself this. Isn't it more like others getting upset at me because I have some opinions that are possibly affected by personal experience and what you call local gossip. Please also take your own advice regarding getting upset when someone does not agree with you. The reason I don't agree is 3 fold. Evidence... Reputation and personal Just living it is the short way of saying it.

No, I am not upset with you. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do mine. I would just like more information, that is not second or third person, that's all.

Originally Posted by Ames

.......There are other pictures though, that were taken of Patsy with JB at Fleet's party....darn it...I just wished that they would be released. I am just curious as to JB's hairstyle at the party...I would be happy just to find that out.

I am very curious about why JB's hairstyle at the party is relevant to the case. Can you explain this...I'm just not following....


thanks.

[Ames]

Originally Posted by lsu

I am very curious about why JB's hairstyle at the party is relevant to the case. Can you explain this...I'm just not following....


thanks.

Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.

[Coloradokares]

Originally Posted by andU

No, I am not upset with you. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do mine. I would just like more information, that is not second or third person, that's all.

You and I have shared that information as well on this forum or others. Much is out on the public domain and or in books or articles. When we share links that is all your getting the same info round and round it goes. What I do have to offer is a unique perspective for those who choose to listen. People who knew them!! Grant I keep names private as you'd want yours held private in a public forum on the internet to in a public forum in a big case like this. That is why we use poster names versus our own in public forums. I can tell you what the air smelled like that night .... Like those across the nation that alone in Dallas can the day the president shot......This case was never small. Not from the moment it broke. It was also a feel in the air it was never a kidnapping.... All your going to get here is 10 years of rehash and more altering of the facts that has taken place in the last 10 years to support one side or the other.......that is not a disputed fact. Till there is a trial or indictment made you have access to all that is public. Unless your new to this murder ..... and your fascination is relatively new....nothing really new will surface after 10 years. Not till there is some move in Boulder to bring a suspect to trial. Or you have a JMK like advent.

[shill]

Originally Posted by nuisanceposter

Why do people suspect the Whites? They had the party that night, they had guests visiting from California, they came over when called by Patsy the next morning (invited over, not barged in), and they asked more than once for more investigation, including a special prosecutor. When did they have time to come kill JonBenet, why would they want her dead, and how did they do it without leaving forensic evidence of having been there?

Fleet went down in the basement before John that morning, didn't find JB. Fleet went back down in the basement by himself for several minutes after JB's body had been brought upstairs. Fleet had access to JB when she would stay at their house, which someone molesting her would need. Fleet new boat knots, which were used in the ligature. John said Fleet may have tape like the kind found on JB. Fleet lived close enough to pull off this crime. There is suspicion that alleges the White's drugged JB with a special treat. Fleet stood mute as they interrogated Burke at his house. He has steered the investigation towards the Ramseys. There are case histories of killers getting involved and pushing the investigation of their own crime. John was suspicious of Fleet.

Originally Posted by Ames

Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.

Good point...I've never heard that before. Thanks for clearing it up.

[Zoey]

Originally Posted by Ames

Sure...because the Ramsey's claim that JB was asleep and carried straight to bed, and never woke up. When her body was found, it was in ponytails, and hair ties.....IF she didn't wear her hair like that to the White's party....then that makes the Ramsey's liars. (Because she would have had to have been awake at some point, for her hair to be fixed like that....in one of Patsy's interviews, she was asked how JB wore her hair to bed...Patsy answered..that she wore her hair in a ponytail). I will find that link if you need it.

How does it make the Ramseys liars? The last time they saw their daughter alive, her hair was in a ponytail. How is that a lie? There is nothing proven anywhere that says the killer did not fix her hair in the two ponytails and hair ties.