Three Questions

[MissOtisRegrets]

Forgive me for starting a new thread. I have no idea where to put these questions:

1. I know nothing about stun guns. What effect would a stun gun have on a 45lb. little girl? How long and to what degree would she be "out"? If you were a kidnapper and were planning to put a little girl in a suitcase before taking her out of her house, would a zap from a stun gun be enough to ensure that she wouldn't begin to moan just as you boarded the train? Or would a good bash to the head be needed, as well?

2. Was it said that Bill McReynolds was eliminated partly because he couldn't have climbed through the window? Is that a concession to the "window theory"?

3. Someone did not have to give a handwriting sample because of a palsy. The handwriting on the ransom note is very shaky imo. Who was that who was excused from giving a handwriting sample?

TIA



MissO

[Coloradokares]

1. A stun gun can incapacitate even lead to death. Death is rare but has happened. On a small child. It would disable her for some time I'd think

2. McReynolds had just had heart surgery. He was cleard so many ways. They kept looking at him mainly because his wife Janet had written that play Rube

3. I believe you are talking about Mr. Barnhill the neighbor. Yes he had Palsy and couldn't write it took many tries to get a sample even. He is the one that took Jacques the Bichon so much.

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Forgive me for starting a new thread. I have no idea where to put these questions:

1. I know nothing about stun guns. What effect would a stun gun have on a 45lb. little girl? How long and to what degree would she be "out"? If you were a kidnapper and were planning to put a little girl in a suitcase before taking her out of her house, would a zap from a stun gun be enough to ensure that she wouldn't begin to moan just as you boarded the train? Or would a good bash to the head be needed, as well?

2. Was it said that Bill McReynolds was eliminated partly because he couldn't have climbed through the window? Is that a concession to the "window theory"?

3. Someone did not have to give a handwriting sample because of a palsy. The handwriting on the ransom note is very shaky imo. Who was that who was excused from giving a handwriting sample?

TIA



MissO

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Forgive me for starting a new thread. I have no idea where to put these questions:

1. I know nothing about stun guns. What effect would a stun gun have on a 45lb. little girl? How long and to what degree would she be "out"? If you were a kidnapper and were planning to put a little girl in a suitcase before taking her out of her house, would a zap from a stun gun be enough to ensure that she wouldn't begin to moan just as you boarded the train? Or would a good bash to the head be needed, as well?

2. Was it said that Bill McReynolds was eliminated partly because he couldn't have climbed through the window? Is that a concession to the "window theory"?

3. Someone did not have to give a handwriting sample because of a palsy. The handwriting on the ransom note is very shaky imo. Who was that who was excused from giving a handwriting sample?

TIA



MissO

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/stuninfo.htm

[MissOtisRegrets]

Thanks Ck and Wally. Wally, your site says full recovery in 5 to 10 minutes. I'll double that time for a child. But, I think a kidnapper might want to knock her out cold before taking her from the house. (I'm trying to figure out why the two different injuries.)

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
1. A stun gun can incapacitate even lead to death. Death is rare but has happened. On a small child. It would disable her for some time I'd think

2. McReynolds had just had heart surgery. He was cleard so many ways. They kept looking at him mainly because his wife Janet had written that play Rube

3. I believe you are talking about Mr. Barnhill the neighbor. Yes he had Palsy and couldn't write it took many tries to get a sample even. He is the one that took Jacques the Bichon so much.

Colorado, Was Barnhill the neighbor who had a houseguest? I know very little about Barnhill, what do you folks know about this family?

[Coloradokares]

Yes the Barnhills were the neighbors who had Glenn Meyer living in their basement. I am not sure I'd call him a houseguest however they were also rather friendly with this person. They were a senior citizen couple. They were particularly fond of JonBenet and in fact had volunteerd so many times to watch the Bichon Frise dog, Jacques for them that Jacques had more or less taken up residency at the Barnhills. It is said of the Barnhills who cooperated in all ways they possibly could to the investigation that they were just harmless gentle people. If you watched the coverage of the news of the kidnapping then murder the Barnhills were interviewed alot. They were devastated over this whole matter. Detective Steve Thomas had nothing but good to say of them as for their steadfast cooperation.

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Colorado, Was Barnhill the neighbor who had a houseguest? I know very little about Barnhill, what do you folks know about this family?

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
Yes the Barnhills were the neighbors who had Glenn Meyer living in their basement. I am not sure I'd call him a houseguest however they were also rather friendly with this person. They were a senior citizen couple. They were particularly fond of JonBenet and in fact had volunteerd so many times to watch the Bichon Frise dog, Jacques for them that Jacques had more or less taken up residency at the Barnhills. It is said of the Barnhills who cooperated in all ways they possibly could to the investigation that they were just harmless gentle people. If you watched the coverage of the news of the kidnapping then murder the Barnhills were interviewed alot. They were devastated over this whole matter. Detective Steve Thomas had nothing but good to say of them as for their steadfast cooperation.

Thank you, Colorado What is known about Glenn Meyer? Did he give DNA and writing samples?

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/stuninfo.htm

Thanks. From your link; there are a list of states that are restricted from using stun guns. Colorado is not on it.

MsO - I'm at work and don't have access to books are time to do research but I know I've read something about each one of your questions. Will do more research when I get home this evening.

[Coloradokares]

Yes he did... along with varying other things as did about 600 people. Yeah blows your mind doesn't it. See that is what bothers me about the Ramsey claim that the Boulder PD looked at no one else. They exhaustively interviewed, gathered evidence on and tested and retested as necessary approximately 600 others. Some of course more extensively than others. Not only neighbors but mere acquaintences or hired help or known sexual offenders. The only friends the Ramseys even had left were the Stines. Everone else they threw under the bus as suspects in their daughters murder. Yet alone after over $2,000,000.00 of investigative costs to Colorado they alone remain under that famous Parasol of Persecution as they liked to refer it to. Patsy of course is deceased now. However I'd still like to see the matter go to a Special Prosecutor. JonBenet deserved better from us than she got. She deserved Justice at any price. Anyone whose life was taken from them does.


Aside issue...Did any of you happen to see that Raul Gomez Garcia did not even have to be present at his own sentencing for the murder of Officer Donny Young. Something is terribly wrong with justice anymore in the state of Colorado. The victims have no rights. Only the criminals....Its nuts.

Originally posted by LadyFisher
Thank you, Colorado What is known about Glenn Meyer? Did he give DNA and writing samples?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Thanks. From your link; there are a list of states that are restricted from using stun guns. Colorado is not on it.

MsO - I'm at work and don't have access to books are time to do research but I know I've read something about each one of your questions. Will do more research when I get home this evening.

Thanks, Athena. I am thinking that maybe the original plan was to remove JB from the house in the suitcase. She would be killed (by strangulation) in a remote area and abandoned. I don't think the stun gun would have guaranteed that she would remain completely motionless or quiet for the time that might be required. I think she might have been knocked out with the flashlight or whatever (even hit with the stun gun) before an attempt was made to put her into the suitcase. Maybe she wouldn't fit in the suitcase. Or maybe she would, but the suitcase couldn't be gotten past the ledge. While trying to force it, the perp made a scuff mark on the wall with his shoe. Whatever went wrong, it was decided to hide her in the basement, rather than take an unnecessary risk. But, she was still alive. She was removed from the suitcase (bringing fibers with her) and the blanket and Dr. Seuss book replaced. She was taken to the wine cellar for hiding. On the way, the perp saw the paintbox in the boiler room, put JB down, fashioned a garrotte with a piece of a paintbrush, and strangled her with it. He, then, carried her to the wine cellar and posed her as though she were handcuffed and suspended (arms above head, three loops tied sloppily and loose because she was unconscious and he was in a hurry now) and cleaned her (she had urinated when she lost consciousness), molested her, and cleaned her again to remove traces of himself. Then he closed the door and left.

This is all wild hypothesis, but I am trying to make sense for myself of why both the head wound and the garrotting.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Ck, is it true that homes in the area were being burglarized around the time of the murder? Was the perp in every case caught and eliminated as the murderer of JBR? I think it's possible that a local burglar may have decided to graduate to the next level of crime (kidnapping) with all the talk of the success of John Ramsey and Access Graphics.

[Coloradokares]

Actually I do believe there were a few. Not a rash of breakins or anything but around Christmas there always tends to be a few. For whatever reason. I honestly cannot say if they examined ever burglary suspect against the murder, I know they did all known sexual offenders. Good question MissOtisRegrets Excellent Question!

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Ck, is it true that homes in the area were being burglarized around the time of the murder? Was the perp in every case caught and eliminated as the murderer of JBR? I think it's possible that a local burglar may have decided to graduate to the next level of crime (kidnapping) with all the talk of the success of John Ramsey and Access Graphics.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Coloradokares
Actually I do believe there were a few. Not a rash of breakins or anything but around Christmas there always tends to be a few. For whatever reason. I honestly cannot say if they examined ever burglary suspect against the murder, I know they did all known sexual offenders. Good question MissOtisRegrets Excellent Question!

Thanks, Ck!

[LindaA]

I'm wonderinghow much wipig down would havea been necessary to remove all traces of the murderer's DNA. And what happened to the cloth he used?

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Thanks, Athena. I am thinking that maybe the original plan was to remove JB from the house in the suitcase. She would be killed (by strangulation) in a remote area and abandoned. I don't think the stun gun would have guaranteed that she would remain completely motionless or quiet for the time that might be required. I think she might have been knocked out with the flashlight or whatever (even hit with the stun gun) before an attempt was made to put her into the suitcase. Maybe she wouldn't fit in the suitcase. Or maybe she would, but the suitcase couldn't be gotten past the ledge. While trying to force it, the perp made a scuff mark on the wall with his shoe. Whatever went wrong, it was decided to hide her in the basement, rather than take an unnecessary risk. But, she was still alive. She was removed from the suitcase (bringing fibers with her) and the blanket and Dr. Seuss book replaced. She was taken to the wine cellar for hiding. On the way, the perp saw the paintbox in the boiler room, put JB down, fashioned a garrotte with a piece of a paintbrush, and strangled her with it. He, then, carried her to the wine cellar and posed her as though she were handcuffed and suspended (arms above head, three loops tied sloppily and loose because she was unconscious and he was in a hurry now) and cleaned her (she had urinated when she lost consciousness), molested her, and cleaned her again to remove traces of himself. Then he closed the door and left.

This is all wild hypothesis, but I am trying to make sense for myself of why both the head wound and the garrotting.

0

Respectfully, I think this is a highly unlikely scenario. First, to plan to use a suitcase from the home narrows the list of perpetrators to a family member, or freind who would know that a large suitcase is available.

Second, it's fairly obvious that JB wouldn't fit in the suitcase, or that it would be a very tight fit. You only have to see a picture of the suitcase to have real doubt as to whether a child could be put in it.

Third, you make it sound like the perp got the idea to fashion a garrotte when he saw the paintbrush. But you also insist he brought the cord with him - why then did he have it if he wasn't intending to use it all along?

Fouth, you now have made the killer a necrophiliac - which is possible. But do you really need to add more motives and mulitple personalities to this mysterious intruder? He's a burglar/paedophile/necrophiliac/kidnapper/revenge killer. Yeah, oooookaaaay.

[lucky13]

IMO, JB's lifeless, limp body COULD have been stuffed into that suitcase. (Children are very limber) I've stated before that I did 'an experiment' (it was harmless-don't ask!) & it IS possible. Arms up, alongside the head, body bent in half, knees up near head. Wouldn't work if the child were alive/awake, but for a small, dead body, it could work. The blanket would not have fit, only the body. But I think that the plan was to get her out of the house in the suitcase, to dump her body. The blanket was going to be used to cover her up- just like she was in the cellar. And the Dr. Suess book (it would fit) was going to be put with her as a 'loving gesture', like covering her.
So my theory is that John was going to take her body out of the house in the suitcase, all part of his plan in his ransom note- (...bring an adequate size attache...)- to get the ransom money after he hid or dumped her somewhere first. Anyone seeing him leave the house with the suitcase would later 'know' that it was for the ransom money purposes. This was before the original plan was ruined by the 911 call.
I also think that he wrote the part about her being beheaded because he wanted to eventually throw her into a body of water to dispose of her. After the intense garrotting, her head would have likely easily come off after being in the water for a period of time. ( think Lacy Peterson) Then it would all make sense if they ever found her body- according to the note. MOO

[Ames]

Originally posted by lucky13
IMO, JB's lifeless, limp body COULD have been stuffed into that suitcase. (Children are very limber) I've stated before that I did 'an experiment' (it was harmless-don't ask!) & it IS possible. Arms up, alongside the head, body bent in half, knees up near head. Wouldn't work if the child were alive/awake, but for a small, dead body, it could work. The blanket would not have fit, only the body. But I think that the plan was to get her out of the house in the suitcase, to dump her body. The blanket was going to be used to cover her up- just like she was in the cellar. And the Dr. Suess book (it would fit) was going to be put with her as a 'loving gesture', like covering her.
So my theory is that John was going to take her body out of the house in the suitcase, all part of his plan in his ransom note- (...bring an adequate size attache...)- to get the ransom money after he hid or dumped her somewhere first. Anyone seeing him leave the house with the suitcase would later 'know' that it was for the ransom money purposes. This was before the original plan was ruined by the 911 call.
I also think that he wrote the part about her being beheaded because he wanted to eventually throw her into a body of water to dispose of her. After the intense garrotting, her head would have likely easily come off after being in the water for a period of time. ( think Lacy Peterson) Then it would all make sense if they ever found her body- according to the note. MOO

Now here is a gruesome thought...I wonder if J had planned on putting her in the suitcase, and taking her to Michigan and dumping the body THERE...maybe in Lake Michigan? IMO

[Ames]

I forgot to add, and didn't make it in time to edit...that the Ramsey's had a vacation home on Lake Michigan...(for those of you that didn't know that). If her body was dumped into the lake, inside of the suitcase that had been weighted down...it is highly unlikey that her body would have ever been found. IMO

[Coloradokares]

The internal structures of JonBenets neck for as bad as it was had actually minimal internal damage. The Hyoid bone was not even fractured. Which in garroting is almost always a given. Yes she had ligature markings and died of asphyxiation ( strangulation ) also secondary was the head trauma. Not sure why beheading was included but I think it might have been to give a terrorist element to that small foreign faction.

Originally posted by lucky13
IMO, JB's lifeless, limp body COULD have been stuffed into that suitcase. (Children are very limber) I've stated before that I did 'an experiment' (it was harmless-don't ask!) & it IS possible. Arms up, alongside the head, body bent in half, knees up near head. Wouldn't work if the child were alive/awake, but for a small, dead body, it could work. The blanket would not have fit, only the body. But I think that the plan was to get her out of the house in the suitcase, to dump her body. The blanket was going to be used to cover her up- just like she was in the cellar. And the Dr. Suess book (it would fit) was going to be put with her as a 'loving gesture', like covering her.
So my theory is that John was going to take her body out of the house in the suitcase, all part of his plan in his ransom note- (...bring an adequate size attache...)- to get the ransom money after he hid or dumped her somewhere first. Anyone seeing him leave the house with the suitcase would later 'know' that it was for the ransom money purposes. This was before the original plan was ruined by the 911 call.
I also think that he wrote the part about her being beheaded because he wanted to eventually throw her into a body of water to dispose of her. After the intense garrotting, her head would have likely easily come off after being in the water for a period of time. ( think Lacy Peterson) Then it would all make sense if they ever found her body- according to the note. MOO

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...dex.php/t-4708


Apparently the stun gun technology of 1996 would not have rendered a person unconscious.

Also the air taser would have been very loud.

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/foru...dex.php/t-4708


Apparently the stun gun technology of 1996 would not have rendered a person unconscious.

Also the air taser would have been very loud.

According to unbiased sites about the Air Taser of 1996 -- the 7W was not enough power to stop someone with a psychosis or with adrenaline pumping. Hardly think JBR meets that criteria.

I highly doubt that the Taser Gun Company would want to be associated in the death of a child. Tuttle is on Air Taser's payroll. From that post you linked to he also said the marks would be inconsistent with a child "SQUIRMING". JBR was asleep. Who says she moved at all?

That post also goes on to say that Doberson's statements went unrebutted when that is not true. It also says he would not make a public statement either which he in fact has done in a couple of the documentaries re: the intruder theory.

Robert Statbucker was hired to dispute Doberson's statements and was discredited due to him being on Air Taser's payroll as well. The forum you linked to only gives one side of their supporting documentation. The site is extremely anti-Ramsey. I am a registered member of that site and refuse to post there because you are not "allowed" to talk about Fleet White or Steve Thomas or say anything positive about the Ramseys. I cannot participate in a forum that is so one-sided and narrow-minded. JMO


In July 1996, a 29-year-old woman, Kimberly Lashon Watkins, died after being shot by police with a taser gun in Pomona, California. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's department said that she had been driving under the influence of drugs and had crashed into a wall and a parked car, before resisting arrest. The Sheriff's Deputy is reported to have described the taser gun as "a kind of debilitating thing where the shock is supposed to catch you off guard... Something from the charge did not agree with her system." After being shot with the taser gun, Kimberly was taken to hospital where her heart stopped. An autopsy was pending.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-CYP

WHAT ARE THE AFTEREFFECTS?
A person hit with an AIR TASER will feel dazed for several minutes. The pulsating electrical output causes involuntary muscle contractions and a resulting sense of vertigo. It can momentarily stun or render an attacker unconscious. Yet, the AIR TASER’s low electrical amperage and short duration of pulsating current, ensures a non-lethal charge. Moreover, it does not cause permanent damage or long-term aftereffects to muscles, nerves or other body functions. A January 1987 Annals of Emergency Medicine study reported TASER technology leaves no long term injuries compared with 50% long term injuries for gun shot injuries.

http://www.factsfinder.com/products/stunguntaser.htm

January 1995 First AIR TASER production model successfully introduced at Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
January 1996 Dr. Stratbucker tested power settings of the AIR TASER and subsequently tested increased power setting of up to four times the power setting of a 7 Watt AIR TASER to establish a power setting safety margin for the AIR TASER and for higher power. These experiments corroborated earlier findings in consulting reports and peer review journals that the electrical emissions from stun type pulse generators, delivered to the body surface do not cause serious cardiac rhythm abnormalities in the otherwise healthy heart including electrical outputs equivalent to 400% the capacitance and 300% the battery voltage of the AIR TASER.

http://www.taser.com/pages/pr/corpbackground.html

[MissOtisRegrets]

Thanks for the info, Athena!



MissO

Originally posted by Athena


According to unbiased sites about the Air Taser of 1996 -- the 7W was not enough power to stop someone with a psychosis or with adrenaline pumping. Hardly think JBR meets that criteria.

I highly doubt that the Taser Gun Company would want to be associated in the death of a child. Tuttle is on Air Taser's payroll. From that post you linked to he also said the marks would be inconsistent with a child "SQUIRMING". JBR was asleep. Who says she moved at all?

That post also goes on to say that Doberson's statements went unrebutted when that is not true. It also says he would not make a public statement either which he in fact has done in a couple of the documentaries re: the intruder theory.

Robert Statbucker was hired to dispute Doberson's statements and was discredited due to him being on Air Taser's payroll as well. The forum you linked to only gives one side of their supporting documentation. The site is extremely anti-Ramsey. I am a registered member of that site and refuse to post there because you are not "allowed" to talk about Fleet White or Steve Thomas or say anything positive about the Ramseys. I cannot participate in a forum that is so one-sided and narrow-minded. JMO


In July 1996, a 29-year-old woman, Kimberly Lashon Watkins, died after being shot by police with a taser gun in Pomona, California. The Los Angeles County Sheriff's department said that she had been driving under the influence of drugs and had crashed into a wall and a parked car, before resisting arrest. The Sheriff's Deputy is reported to have described the taser gun as "a kind of debilitating thing where the shock is supposed to catch you off guard... Something from the charge did not agree with her system." After being shot with the taser gun, Kimberly was taken to hospital where her heart stopped. An autopsy was pending.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-CYP

WHAT ARE THE AFTEREFFECTS?
A person hit with an AIR TASER will feel dazed for several minutes. The pulsating electrical output causes involuntary muscle contractions and a resulting sense of vertigo. It can momentarily stun or render an attacker unconscious. Yet, the AIR TASER’s low electrical amperage and short duration of pulsating current, ensures a non-lethal charge. Moreover, it does not cause permanent damage or long-term aftereffects to muscles, nerves or other body functions. A January 1987 Annals of Emergency Medicine study reported TASER technology leaves no long term injuries compared with 50% long term injuries for gun shot injuries.

http://www.factsfinder.com/products/stunguntaser.htm

January 1995 First AIR TASER production model successfully introduced at Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas.
January 1996 Dr. Stratbucker tested power settings of the AIR TASER and subsequently tested increased power setting of up to four times the power setting of a 7 Watt AIR TASER to establish a power setting safety margin for the AIR TASER and for higher power. These experiments corroborated earlier findings in consulting reports and peer review journals that the electrical emissions from stun type pulse generators, delivered to the body surface do not cause serious cardiac rhythm abnormalities in the otherwise healthy heart including electrical outputs equivalent to 400% the capacitance and 300% the battery voltage of the AIR TASER.

http://www.taser.com/pages/pr/corpbackground.html

If you're not willing to believe people with vested financial interest, then shouldn't you discount John Douglas as well?

You're right that JB probably wasn't squirming, but most IDIs think she was shot twice. Surely she'd have been squirming after the firts time.

[Athena]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


If you're not willing to believe people with vested financial interest, then shouldn't you discount John Douglas as well?

You're right that JB probably wasn't squirming, but most IDIs think she was shot twice. Surely she'd have been squirming after the firts time.

She should have been immobilized after the first one. She only weighed 45 lbs: I have not seen an alternative explanation for those marks especially because both the mark on her back and on her face were EXACTLY the same measurement.

John Douglas was not discredited -- Stratbucker was. In addition to that and I'll say this until I'm blue in the face -- I do not believe Douglas would have risked his credibility on the side of possible child killers. JMO

Originally posted by Athena


She should have been immobilized after the first one. She only weighed 45 lbs: I have not seen an alternative explanation for those marks especially because both the mark on her back and on her face were EXACTLY the same measurement.

John Douglas was not discredited -- Stratbucker was. In addition to that and I'll say this until I'm blue in the face -- I do not believe Douglas would have risked his credibility on the side of possible child killers. JMO

I didn't say he was discredited. I said he should be discounted for the same reasons you discount the rep from the Air Taser Co.

You can keep repeating the mantra all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Douglas was paid by the Rs.

If she was imobilized after the first shot, then why a second one.

Apparently the Taser gun of '96 was loud. That seems to suggest it's unlikely it would have been used in her bedroom.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by WallyCleaver


I didn't say he was discredited. I said he should be discounted for the same reasons you discount the rep from the Air Taser Co.

You can keep repeating the mantra all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that Douglas was paid by the Rs.

If she was imobilized after the first shot, then why a second one.

Apparently the Taser gun of '96 was loud. That seems to suggest it's unlikely it would have been used in her bedroom.

I have to agree on all counts.

If you're discounting Stratbucker's opinion because he's on AirTaser's payroll, then to be fair, you have to discount JD's opinion, as he is on the Ramsey's payroll.

Why indeed would anyone zap her a second time if the stun gun (if one was used) knocked her out the first time? There would have been plenty of time to set that garotte around her neck and yank it tight or whack her on the head before she came to and struggled - and we know she didn't struggle, because there is literally NO sign of a struggle. She didn't have her blood or her skin under her nails - Smit said she did, but he's the only one. It's not in the autopsy. I'd like to see a source other than Smit saying that.

Loud enough that parents even a floor up would have heard it. I know a poster on another board who has a stun gun, and has used it on himself. He said it hurt very much, and in addition to the stun gun being loud itself, there was no way he could have avoided screaming in pain. I don't know what made those marks, but I am not convinced it was a stun gun.

[shill]

Funny how people who explain why JB was still in the house have said the Ramseys didn't get rid of the body because they couldn't bare to put their beloved daughter alone out in the cold and yet others have no problem theorizing the Ramseys were willing to stuff her in a suitcase and dump her from a plane in Lake Michigan. Two widely different interpretations of how the Ramseys would behave if guilty.
Maybe the suitcase has nothing to do with anything and maybe a intruder could have entered another way other then the basement window.

[lucky13]

I think that the only reason the Ramseys did not have JB's body exhumed to determine if a stun gun was used conclusively, is because they thought it would incriminate them further as suspects. I think that John did own a stun gun. There was a booklet/video, (whatever) that was found in the drawer about stun guns. He says he only had the info- but no stun gun...
Coroner Meyer stated that he thought a stun gun COULD have been used.
Dr. Werner Spitz(worked on J.F. Kennedy assassination case) is 100% certain that the marks are not from a stun gun. He said the marks are not burns, but abrasions. He said that the marks look like what was left of a snap on a piece of clothing. One mark has a 'boat-shaped' structure that the others don't. (???) (from Oct.'02- 48 Hours Investigates-Searching For a Killer)
WHO KNOWS??????? (only God, the killer, & JonBenet)
Just out of curiousity, anyone know if JB's Barbie nightgown had any snaps on it??

[LadyFisher]

Originally posted by LindaA
I'm wonderinghow much wipig down would havea been necessary to remove all traces of the murderer's DNA. And what happened to the cloth he used?

You raise some good ?s. I am assuming no such cloth was found in the basement...wonder if the perp carried a handkerchief?

[LindaA]

Originally posted by shill
Funny how people who explain why JB was still in the house have said the Ramseys didn't get rid of the body because they couldn't bare to put their beloved daughter alone out in the cold and yet others have no problem theorizing the Ramseys were willing to stuff her in a suitcase and dump her from a plane in Lake Michigan. Two widely different interpretations of how the Ramseys would behave if guilty.
Maybe the suitcase has nothing to do with anything and maybe a intruder could have entered another way other then the basement window.

Agreed. More to the point, they feel they could throttle her while she was still alive (assuming the head injury was accidental and came first) and ram her with a broken paint brush to cover up what really happened, but could not stand to leave her body outside in the snow. That just doesn't add up to me.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by lucky13
I think that the only reason the Ramseys did not have JB's body exhumed to determine if a stun gun was used conclusively, is because they thought it would incriminate them further as suspects. I think that John did own a stun gun. There was a booklet/video, (whatever) that was found in the drawer about stun guns. He says he only had the info- but no stun gun...
Coroner Meyer stated that he thought a stun gun COULD have been used.
Dr. Werner Spitz(worked on J.F. Kennedy assassination case) is 100% certain that the marks are not from a stun gun. He said the marks are not burns, but abrasions. He said that the marks look like what was left of a snap on a piece of clothing. One mark has a 'boat-shaped' structure that the others don't. (???) (from Oct.'02- 48 Hours Investigates-Searching For a Killer)
WHO KNOWS??????? (only God, the killer, & JonBenet)
Just out of curiousity, anyone know if JB's Barbie nightgown had any snaps on it??

I'm missing something here. You say John had a stun gun. If so, why didn't the police find it? Not sure what you are basing your argument on. Having an advertising brochure on something doesn't indicate you actually own it.

If you agree with the sources you cited that the marks were not made by a stun gun, then it doesn't matter if John had one or not, because it wasn't used in the crime.

BTW, I don't buy the snap theory. JMO.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by LadyFisher
You raise some good ?s. I am assuming no such cloth was found in the basement...wonder if the perp carried a handkerchief?

Sorry for the typos in my original post.

I've never heard that such a cloth was ever found. I've asked about it before, but never gotten an answer. There were the fibers in her genital area that were attributed to JR's shirt. There seems to be some question as to the color of those fibers and whether or not the attorney who asked him about them was lying or not.

[nuisanceposter]

Originally posted by LindaA


Sorry for the typos in my original post.

I've never heard that such a cloth was ever found. I've asked about it before, but never gotten an answer. There were the fibers in her genital area that were attributed to JR's shirt. There seems to be some question as to the color of those fibers and whether or not the attorney who asked him about them was lying or not.

Maybe that cloth left with Pam Paugh, when she raided the house "for funeral clothes" and loaded down a police cruiser with boxes and bags full of "mementos." What were police thinking, allowing her to do that, even giving her a ride and letting her use the cruiser to remove evidence from a crime scene? Argh!

There is a question as to color of fibers, but Levin, as an attorney, is legally bound not to lie in a situation like that. Some people think perhaps police lied to Levin about the existence of fibers consistent with clothes worn by the Rs that night, but their reports came from CBI and have never been made public, so we don't know exactly what CBI found. I would think if the police are saying CBI found something, then they found something.

[LindaA]

Nuisance, I believe there was a detailed inventory done of what was taken from the house by Ms. Paugh which is why it took so long to retrieve them. And no, I can't imagine any LE agency allowing that with or without an inventory!!

[sweetcharlotte]

Originally posted by nuisanceposter

<snip>

but Levin, as an attorney, is legally bound not to lie in a situation like that
<snip>

Not true - IMO>

[LindaA]

Originally posted by sweetcharlotte


Not true - IMO>

I agree. I believe ethat has been discussed here on one of the threads already.

[bullmoose]

Regarding Lucky13's statement that he believed John Ramsey had a stun gun because he had a brochure/video: At trade shows and trade conventions attendees generally receive a goody or swag bag upon registration filled with promotional literature that has lots of room for samples, freebies and yes, even videos of products on display. I just attended a similar show, and its astounding to me what ended up in my swag bag; stuffed in by the various vendors. I think that is the explanation for the video in the Ramsey home; that it was given him at a computer tradeshow; IMO it is a logical, believable explanation.

[LindaA]

Bullmoose, I have read that also. I believe the material was in Spanish, a language neither of the adult Ramseys spoke, so they just stuck it in a drawer.

[shill]

Originally posted by LindaA
Nuisance, I believe there was a detailed inventory done of what was taken from the house by Ms. Paugh which is why it took so long to retrieve them. And no, I can't imagine any LE agency allowing that with or without an inventory!!

If the BP believed Pam Paugh was asked to remove evidence by the Ramseys, they could give her a lie detecter test and ask her.

And you're assuming the Ramseys left evidence that needed to be removed.

[Coloradokares]

Originally posted by shill
If the BP believed Pam Paugh was asked to remove evidence by the Ramseys, they could give her a lie detecter test and ask her.

And you're assuming the Ramseys left evidence that needed to be removed.

We do know that according to Steve Thomas that there were things removed in zipped bags and closed boxes. If Pam Paugh was requested to take a lie detector test would she pay for it or would John like the others taken by the Ramsey family. Personally I think John and Patsy when she was still alive would have ended this nightmare for themselves if they were so innocent in this read this to mean without any knowledge if they'd of been willing to take the 10 lie detector tests that Patsy said she'd be willing to take. It took several as it was to get inconclusive results. Fact not bias.