Foresenic Evidence Discussion

Please post your thoughts...The whole garrotte thing. I've viewed the photos. If I were an investigator I would ask, "Who would have the knowledge and skill to wrap and tie these knots in this braided fashion?" It couldn't have been someone studying a book on macrame for goodness sakes! This action (of tying the knots---look at the crime scence photos) must have been performed by a person with some of of background that included experience and hands on technique with "knots". Other than tying my shoelaces, I am clueless. Who has this knowledge to (quickley)? construct the knots/braiding of this garrotte?

Surely Patsy Ramsey had to have some knowledge of garrote knotting what with all of her pageant experience.



Good question Barb. Maybe the intruder was a boy scout? An S&M practitioner? A cowboy? A magician?

I wish we knew.

Me too but I don't remember any of the experts really focusing on it or discussing it much. It seems the person who tied the complex knot would be someone who pays a lot of attention to detail and knew he had sufficient time.

We own a boat and one of the first things that you learn is how to tie various knots for different functions.

I have not taken the time to study the knots and compare them to the knots used in boating.

As for the time it takes to tie a complex knot, when my husband and I took the coast guard class I was much better at remembering how to tie the knots, what knot was best for each application, and could tie them very quickly.

Geeze edited for multiple typos.

Originally posted by Slicky
Surely Patsy Ramsey had to have some knowledge of garrote knotting what with all of her pageant experience.



Good question Barb. Maybe the intruder was a boy scout? An S&M practitioner? A cowboy? A magician?

I wish we knew.

So do I. I think your suggestions are right on. S/M, Boy Scouts, Cowboys, Magicians,---how about someone who does boating/sailing?

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


So do I. I think your suggestions are right on. S/M, Boy Scouts, Cowboys, Magicians,---how about someone who does boating/sailing?

Tommieb's post above confirms the boating/sailing thing.

Wasn't John Ramsey ex Navy?

Here we go, lol...............

Originally posted by darjeeling
Me too but I don't remember any of the experts really focusing on it or discussing it much. It seems the person who tied the complex knot would be someone who pays a lot of attention to detail and knew he had sufficient time.

Why didn't they focus on this? You bring up an important point. Even if the perp paid alot of attention to detail and knew he had sufficient time did he have experience in tying knots? Yes, he did. And who among those under the umbrella of suspision has this knowledge/experience? It can't be gained in one day...

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


Why didn't they focus on this? You bring up an important point. Even if the perp paid alot of attention to detail and knew he had sufficient time did he have experience in tying knots? Yes, he did. And who among those under the umbrella of suspision has this knowledge/experience? It can't be gained in one day...

And I think it's more than just the knots. If I understand correctly, a person could learn all the knots in the scouting handbook and still not know how to make a garrote. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've read a few articles on them, and still haven't figured out how they are made or used. I stopped looking when I realized that I don't really want to know.

Originally posted by JorgeElCurioso
And I think it's more than just the knots. If I understand correctly, a person could learn all the knots in the scouting handbook and still not know how to make a garrote. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've read a few articles on them, and still haven't figured out how they are made or used. I stopped looking when I realized that I don't really want to know.

Well, knots and garrottes. There is a gruesome history concerning garrottes and how they were used to kill people. That is one of the unique features of this crime. And simply by this unique feature, shouldn't someone emerge in investigation as a "unique perpetrator"? Physical evidence. Keeps me wondering. Personally, I do want to know the truth, however horrible it may be, because the killer(s) must be found. I cannot understand how one can say "I really don't want to know".

Originally posted by JorgeElCurioso
And I think it's more than just the knots. If I understand correctly, a person could learn all the knots in the scouting handbook and still not know how to make a garrote. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I've read a few articles on them, and still haven't figured out how they are made or used. I stopped looking when I realized that I don't really want to know.

It's also equally possibly to make a garotte without having any specialist knowledge of knots.

Why the killer chose a garotte instead of manual strangulation or simply strangulation with the materials at hand is a curious question given that the victim was a petite 6 year old and it wouldn't require much strength or pressure to kill her. Did the killer only have one hand available with which to effect strangulation?

Originally posted by barbsthoughts

Well, knots and garrottes. There is a gruesome history concerning garrottes and how they were used to kill people. That is one of the unique features of this crime. And simply by this unique feature, shouldn't someone emerge in investigation as a "unique perpetrator"? Physical evidence. Keeps me wondering. Personally, I do want to know the truth, however horrible it may be, because the killer(s) must be found. I cannot understand how one can say "I really don't want to know".

If I thought that my own personal knowledge of garrotte-making could in any way help to reveal the killer, I would re-start my investigations this instant.

I did see a story that talked about use of the garrote through history, in Spain and elsewhere. I don't know if it's the same one you saw. It didn't have any information that would help me to construct a garrotte should I ever need one in a pinch.

I just had another close look at the photos.

It doesn't stand out to me as a "knot" as much as it reminds me of the kind of fastening used in wicker and bamboo craft and furniture making.

Originally posted by reprise


It's also equally possibly to make a garotte without having any specialist knowledge of knots.

Why the killer chose a garotte instead of manual strangulation or simply strangulation with the materials at hand is a curious question given that the victim was a petite 6 year old and it wouldn't require much strength or pressure to kill her. Did the killer only have one hand available with which to effect strangulation?

Well look at the garrotte. I don't understand how one can say it's possible to make a garrotte without having knowledge of knots. Does one just wrap and tie at will? If you examine the evidence of the tying and braiding of the garrotte how can you say one can be made "without having any specialist knowledge of knots"? And I'm with you on the possible "one hand available".
But that does not address the knots.

I am not being critical. I am only seeking answers.

There is no way PR used that on her child. I just can't believe it.

MOO

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


Well look at the garrotte. I don't understand how one can say it's possible to make a garrotte without having knowledge of knots. Does one just wrap and tie at will? If you examine the evidence of the tying and braiding of the garrotte how can you say one can be made "without having any specialist knowledge of knots"? And I'm with you on the possible "one hand available".
But that does not address the knots.

I am not being critical. I am only seeking answers.

A garotte can be as simple as a scarf twisted with a stick. This particular one was more patiently fashioned, but the intricacy isn't necessary to the function of the device.

I'd agree that it's a learned way of fastening. It reminds me both of some forms of craftwork fastening and some forms of bandaging - where you're relying on the pressure of the wrapping itself to stop the fastening unravelling.

Originally posted by JorgeElCurioso
If I thought that my own personal knowledge of garrotte-making could in any way help to reveal the killer, I would re-start my investigations this instant.

I did see a story that talked about use of the garrote through history, in Spain and elsewhere. I don't know if it's the same one you saw. It didn't have any information that would help me to construct a garrotte should I ever need one in a pinch.

I think we saw the same information. This form of execution was unique to the Spanish Inquisition tho it seems the use was more "formalized" with a chair, etc. Still horrible, however you cut it. Anyway, here and now it does seem to be unique, even considering sexual deviants who may utilize this to achieve satisfaction. Who (out of a subset of individuals) would employ this technique---with a broken paintbrush handle and the "knots" to construct the killing implement?

Originally posted by reprise


A garotte can be as simple as a scarf twisted with a stick. This particular one was more patiently fashioned, but the intricacy isn't necessary to the function of the device.

Is a garrotte just a tourniquet fastened around the neck? Would a person with tourniquet-training know how to construct a garrotte like the one used on JonBenet?

Originally posted by MsMolly
There is no way PR used that on her child. I just can't believe it.

MOO

I did not mention Patsy Ramsy. Why did you?

Originally posted by reprise
I just had another close look at the photos.

It doesn't stand out to me as a "knot" as much as it reminds me of the kind of fastening used in wicker and bamboo craft and furniture making.

Very interesting. I had not considered that. Are there any crafters out there who can speak to this?

Originally posted by JorgeElCurioso
Is a garrotte just a tourniquet fastened around the neck? Would a person with tourniquet-training know how to construct a garrotte like the one used on JonBenet?

I'm an RN. I can fashion a tourniquet out of any number of materials. That is not the case here.

Originally posted by MsMolly
There is no way PR used that on her child. I just can't believe it.

MOO

I am with you on that! IMO NO WAY!!!

[Cavalier]

Firemen are also knowledgeable with knots.


I think a sexual sadist, pedo, viewer of porn is the knot expert here.

Originally posted by JorgeElCurioso
Is a garrotte just a tourniquet fastened around the neck? Would a person with tourniquet-training know how to construct a garrotte like the one used on JonBenet?

The purpose of garottes is to control the rate of asphyxiation. Tourniquets, you're trying to restrict blood flow very fast and periodically allow increased flow when necessary.

Those photos have been online for so long and been studied so often by amateurs and professionals alike, that I suspect every possible profession or hobby which uses that kind of fastening skill has already been considered. And "skill" was involved. It's way too even for it to have been someone's first attempt at that kind of fastening. Even the number of wraps was probably more habit than anything else.

Originally posted by Cotontail


I am with you on that! IMO NO WAY!!!

Who said or posted anything about Patsy Ramsey? Are you people paranoid???

One thing which is intriguing is that the garotte wasn't fashioned elsewhere and brought to the scene.

That seems a little odd for a killer for whom garotting doesn't seem to have been an afterthought. Why risk having to find appropriate materials at the scene?

Sadly, I'd have to agree with the suggestion that the act of garotting JonBenet was more than a means of bringing about her death.

Originally posted by barbsthoughts

Who said or posted anything about Patsy Ramsey? Are you people paranoid???

No, just making a comment. Does someone have to refer someone else making a comment in order express their thoughts? I was simply making a comment with the other poster. Your the one that must be paranoid if it bothers you.

Originally posted by reprise


The purpose of garottes is to control the rate of asphyxiation. Tourniquets, you're trying to restrict blood flow very fast and periodically allow increased flow when necessary.

Those photos have been online for so long and been studied so often by amateurs and professionals alike, that I suspect every possible profession or hobby which uses that kind of fastening skill has already been considered. And "skill" was involved. It's way too even for it to have been someone's first attempt at that kind of fastening. Even the number of wraps was probably more habit than anything else.

Ahha. You realize the skill involved here. It is not amature.

[Cavalier]

Originally posted by barbsthoughts

Who said or posted anything about Patsy Ramsey? Are you people paranoid???

Cotontail was just agreeing with MsMolly who had simply made a statement that she did not believe that Patsy could use the garrotte on her daughter. Many people think Patsy was involved. MsMolly just exclaimed that Patsy couldn't have used that device. Just Molly's opinion. That's how I took the whole conversation.

Originally posted by Cotontail


No, just making a comment. Does someone have to refer someone else making a comment in order express their thoughts? I was simply making a comment with the other poster. Your the one that must be paranoid if it bothers you.

This thread is about knots, obviously specific to the crime scene and the garrotte. Do you have something to contribute about about this?

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


This thread is about knots, obviously specific to the crime scene and the garrotte. Do you have something to contribute about about this?

oh sorry. Yes I do. I dont think Pasty or anyone in the Ramsey family made the garrotte. Is that more clear for you? Holy cow.

Originally posted by Cavalier
Cotontail was just agreeing with MsMolly who had simply made a statement that she did not believe that Patsy could use the garrotte on her daughter. Many people think Patsy was involved. MsMolly just exclaimed that Patsy couldn't have used that device. Just Molly's opinion. That's how I took the whole conversation.

and you are correct.

[Cavalier]

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


This thread is about knots, obviously specific to the crime scene and the garrotte. Do you have something to contribute about about this?

It's perfectly acceptable when talking about knots to voice the opinion that the mother could not have used those knots on her own daughter.

Originally posted by Cavalier
It's perfectly acceptable when talking about knots to voice the opinion that the mother could not have used those knots on her own daughter.

Fine. Speaking of which, did Patsy Ramsey have any background or arts and crafts training which would have included the skill of knot tying? Another poster mentioned the fact that the knots were reminiscence of those used in wicker or rattan.

[Cavalier]

Originally posted by barbsthoughts


Fine. Speaking of which, did Patsy Ramsey have any background or arts and crafts training which would have included the skill of knot tying? Another poster mentioned the fact that the knots were reminiscence of those used in wicker or rattan.

I don't know. Try Google.

Good night Barb. I'll leave you to your thoughts.........and your knots.

Originally posted by Cavalier
I don't know. Try Google.

Good night Barb. I'll leave you to your thoughts.........and your knots.

Sleep on it buddy. See ya.

What's about the fingerprint on the garotte??? Didn't the police or Investigator tested that out?

duh........

Originally posted by reprise
The purpose of garottes is to control the rate of asphyxiation. Tourniquets, you're trying to restrict blood flow very fast and periodically allow increased flow when necessary.

Those photos have been online for so long and been studied so often by amateurs and professionals alike, that I suspect every possible profession or hobby which uses that kind of fastening skill has already been considered. And "skill" was involved. It's way too even for it to have been someone's first attempt at that kind of fastening. Even the number of wraps was probably more habit than anything else.

But a basic tourniquet could be used to choke somebody; and if it was used that way, it would effectively become a garrotte, right? Was the garrotte used on Jonbenet:
1) Like a simple tourniquet, but with fancier knots; or
2) More than just a simple tourniquet?

If 1) is the case, then there are thousands of people who could have made it. If 2) is the case, then there are probably very few people who could have made it, no matter how great their skill with knots. In other words, showing that somebody could make a knot like the one on the garrotte would not be nearly enough cast suspicion on them. I think you are saying that the second option is correct, right?

[LI_Mom]

Originally posted by knockkneedchick


Personally, I would want to know everything. Even though it would be hard to read about how my own little girl was killed, I still would want to know details in case there might be something that might lead me to remember something or someone.


Beats me!

So would most people. If the parents don't have the info, how would they ever know for sure what they might have failed to tell the police to check?

But then most people would also read the entire ransom note before they stopped to call their friends.


To me, it seems more reasonable that the Ramseys were lying in that interview rather than they never even wanted to know what was going on in the case.

Originally posted by reprise


The purpose of garottes is to control the rate of asphyxiation. Tourniquets, you're trying to restrict blood flow very fast and periodically allow increased flow when necessary.

Those photos have been online for so long and been studied so often by amateurs and professionals alike, that I suspect every possible profession or hobby which uses that kind of fastening skill has already been considered. And "skill" was involved. It's way too even for it to have been someone's first attempt at that kind of fastening. Even the number of wraps was probably more habit than anything else.

I agree with you about it controlling the rate of asphyxiation....and there is a fetish about controlling the rate of oxygen intake...... intensifying a climax.

Perhaps when JMK stated "it was an accident"..... just perhaps in his mind.....he was performing this particular fetish....and she died accidently. This might have angered him....sent him into a rage....and he clubbed her............???

Just a thought.

I find the best lies are those mixed with a little truth.

Originally posted by joanw_123 I agree with you about it controlling the rate of asphyxiation....and there is a fetish about controlling the rate of oxygen intake...... intensifying a climax.

In that particular situation, the purpose is to intensify the climax of the person who is being deprived of oxygen.

Horrible as it sounds, a part of me would rather think this crime was committed by a sadist who gets pleasure (sexual or otherwise) from watching someone asphyxiate than believe that someone was trying to give JonBenet an enhanced sexual experience.

Every time I think about the blow to the head, I come up with a different possible explanation for why the killer struck someone who was already near death on the head. Anger? A "quick" dispatch when he realised that her death was inevitable? A second person wanting to end the whole thing and get out of the house?

Unfortunately, I think the blow to the head will make some kind of twisted sense once we hear the story of the person who killed her (if we ever hear that story).