old Discussion 7/30-8/9/06

[julianella]

Thanks FW.

Good morning everyone, any new news over the weekend?

[peg54]

Nothing as far as I know, I like just one thread, makes it easier, without jumping back and forth.

peg

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom
MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT:
<snip>
Now today people, tourists, many of them spread out around this island and they put up 400 posters announcing that reward. We also found out police have had a tip line in place for some time. They tell us that they are still getting some tips and information on that. But on this island it is not customary or procedural for them to also have a reward. So this new tip line that Beth Holloway Twitty created will be in conjunction with her new reward, and she's really hoping that this helps.
<snip>
KOSINSKI: Now we've seen in our country, many times a reward is what brings people out. The Dutch here, the Dutch authorities on Aruba just don't feel that that is something they want to get into. But here, Beth Holloway Twitty and the family of Natalee feel that that could bring some information out.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8666428/

Does anyone have any more info on why it's not customary or procedural to have a tip line AND a reward and why Dutch authorities don't want to get into rewards for info?

Perhaps to keep the kooks and false info at bay?

Had it not been for the reward, would the false witnesses to the pond siting and landfill body dumping and frozen condoms have come forward?

I think that is a good question. Do they not have a reward, or do they just not announce it?

I think unfortunatley, any case with a reward may bring out good tip, but on the negative side, it does bring out some shady characters...

imo

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Great question, nm. This is what further reinforces my opinion regarding there not being any evidence. One would think, with all the $$$$$ out there .... it would have persuaded someone to give "credible" information, if they had it.

JMO

This line of reasoning points to the fact that Natalee no longer existed after leaving CnC's with J2k. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom
No, this line of reasoning points to the fact that there isn't an island wide conspiracy and coverup to protect the son of a judge in training because everyone knows money talks.

It also says that not one person has come forward for the reward with credible information that they saw Natalee after she left CnC's with J2K. JMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

The reward wasn't for a siting of Natalee

Wasn't there a reward for information leading to her safe return?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I'm trying to think back to just how many rewards there were .... I believe there were a few.

Going back to your first post though .... how DO you reach that conclusion, that no credible information leads to the fact she didn't "exist" ((using your word)) after leaving C&C's??

JMO

There is no evidence of anything, no crime, no runaway, no drowning, no nothing. It all stops with J2K. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by Watership Down



There wouldn't be evidence of a runaway especially if she got on a boat that didn't belong to anyone in Aruba.

How do you really believe a girl who was drunk successfully ran away? With whom did she run with?? Are there others missing?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


But that's where I run into trouble, Suki. You're right .... by all accounts, there is no evidence of anything .... certainly, no crime, like you stated. I don't think it DOES necessarily have to stop with J2K. It's convenient for you to think that .... because you don't believe he left her on the beach. At least, I assume that. But, if I believe he left her on the beach, and something happened to her afterwards .... then it doesn't stop with J2K.

JMO

Even if I did believe he left her on the beach, there is still no evidence that Natalee went any farther than where Joran claims he left her. Not one shred of evidence, not one person to come forward claiming they saw her. Absolutely Nothing. Anyway we look at it, we're all making leaps here, based on absolutely no evidence of anything. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


Others??

Other / Others no difference, is there any one missing that disappeared at the same time as Natalee?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Are they master criminals able to pull off the perfect murder and body disposal in the very tight timeline?

I don't think so.

Who says it was perfect? With connections, and a poor investigation, lies, lies, and more lies, which then the Judge deems you not trustworthy, therefore you're free to go. Who knows?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

And along with that is absolutely no evidence J2K harmed Natalee in any way, shape or form.

How can anyone reject one senario and cite lack of evidence and accept another senario with the same lack of evidence?

Joran is a liar, you know that, I know that, everybody knows that. I cannot base a scenario on what a liar has to say, though I'm sure there are some facts in his story, we just don't know what is truth and what is not. The liar's story is not evidence of anything, and the liar cannot be trusted. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom

And along with that is absolutely no evidence J2K harmed Natalee in any way, shape or form.

How can anyone reject one senario and cite lack of evidence and accept another senario with the same lack of evidence?

Is there really any "hard" evidence Natalee was ever on the beach with Joran?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom


Perfect crime = no evidence leading back to the perp

What connections?

It wasn't a poor investigation.

The judge deems you not trustworthy? When did the judge give a statement? Joran was released after being held the MAXIMUM time allowable under the law - there was no evidence to support a charge!

If you think it wasn't a poor investigation, then I'm sure you have an answer to why no one seems to know what happened to Natalee. JMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


I would have no idea, julia. I'm not sure I get your meaning.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility Natalee might have been communicating with someone BEFORE she left for Aruba. Could she have voluntarily left with THAT person, for example??

JMO

What person. In order for there to be another person then they would have to be missing too...so who? Are there any reporting of another missing person?

If not thene how can we assume she left with anyone at all?

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE



Beth is a LIAR and can't be trusted! moo

Good, then don't trust her, no skin off my back!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE



Beth is a LIAR and can't be trusted! moo

Difference is Beth was not the last known to be with Natalee, nor is she a suspect, nor was she any where near Aruba at the time of the disappearance... but can't really say the same about the suspects! imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Is there evidence he was elsewhere?

In Deepaks car!

So is there evidence she was actually on that beach?

Anything concrete?

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


julia .... Why would this person have to be "missing"??

JMO

Well he and Natalee surly cannot be walking around together, and living a normal life. And surly this person would have a family who would know all about Natalee being missing, and would know that she is living in harmony with this mystery person!

And while we are at it is there any hard evidence Natalee was conversing in a romatic manner with anyone? If so who?

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Do you have proof to back up the above statements?

Sure there are hundreds of links, just use google! It will tell you where Beth was vacationing..IN THE US, it will tell you that NAtalee arrived fine in Aruba yet, after leaving with Joran it seems as though no one seen her again!

What proof do you need. beth was not in Aruba, she was no where near Aruba, yet....the suspects were so their lies are significate!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Who is disputing she was in Deepak's car?

JVDS: (paraphrased) " I left her on the beach"

Can't get anymore concrete than that! moo

hmm well he also said he dropped her off at the HI, and we all know how concrete that was!

So I am talking HARD PHYSICAL evidence...is there any? His shoes? Her flip flops? Clothing, something to actually show she was there? Other then the word of a suspect who has lied more then once?

I mean if we can only go by facts and evidence, then the words of a liar is surly not what one can hall hard concrete evidence or fact!

IMO

[SukiJane]

Originally posted by nascarmom

No, I know Joran told 3 lies.

Electronic evidence supports his story and he is not the only liar in this case as everybody knows.

I'll go with the 3 lies, although truthfully we don't know how many lies he's told. Three lies is three lies too many in a police investigation.

Looking forward to seeing the electronic evidence that supports his story.

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Beth lies!moo

\
I see your adgenda here, I hope FW does also!

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


It's the only thing there is! moo

Or do you have anything that says otherwise?

So then you agree we cannot say 100 percent that they were on the beach!

She is no where to be found, no one has came forward to see them there, no one can forward noticing any odd behaviors that night, meaning if someone else came along and snatched Natalee up. No body floating in the water from a drowning.

I mean is there anything at all to support that Natalee was anywhere but in Deepaks car?

IMO

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom

Yep, the fact that Joran's statement cannot be proven false.

And he even has electronic evidence to back his story

What electronic evidence? A tower stateing he was in the Area of the beach? There are other things in that area too, and that electronic evidence supports the entire hour Joran and Natalee spent on the beach?

Nah I don't think so.

See just as you feel we have no evidence to assume Joran did anything other then leave Natalee on the beach, you have no evidence Natalee was ever at the beach!

I have little tome now, but tomm, I will look up the research on the cell call towers, and show there are many things in that area, so for all we know they could have been there!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by fairmaiden


**EXAMPLE** .... **EXAMPLE** ((Certainly not fact)).

Let's say Natalee was corresponding with some "blue-eyed Dutch boy", which has been a RUMOR in this case. I wouldn't know if there was any evidence of that .... THAT would be on Natalee's computer. Let's say she MET this guy, while she was in Aruba .... and made a decision to leave with him. Could she "hide" from the world for an extended period of time .... could she perhaps disguise herself?? I grant you, it's unlikely, julia .... but certainly NOT impossible. People have certainly disappeared for extended periods of time .... for YEARS, in fact.

Now I can do something YOU tend to do sometimes .... While we are at it, is there any hard evidence Natalee WASN'T communicating with someone??

JMO

And you don't think that something like that would have came out? You don't think Joe T would have ate that up? There is nothing at all that points to a blue eyed dutch unless its Koen, who ran with Family shortly after this whole thing started, and HE does have a boat, or GVC, who we already know Natalee shot down!

imo

Hard evidence that Natalee was NOT communicating with someone is the fact that she only hung aroung with the MB group. She was not out romancing at night after night with a local boy, she left ONE night with Joran and BAM!

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by TAYLOR FLADGATE


Only Joran's statement.......I will repeat that is all there is!

You can't show me evidence they were not on the beach!

No body, no missing shoes, no clothing, no jewlery? Nothing there is not one shred of evidence that Natalee was ever on that beahc. Only Jorans word, and well he gave his word that she was at the HI too, and if it were not for cameras, that story would have worked. How convient the beach area he went to did not have cameras, no witnesses, yet there are things missing (reportedly) from the huts....

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Guido Wever.

MOO

He's missing? He's blond hair blue eyes? Isn't he the one who doesn't like woman?

And didn't he play Tennis with Joran the very next day?

imo

[julianella]

Originally posted by nascarmom


Beth believes it and cited it in her civil suit filing, if you feel it's unreliable you need to send your research to her and her attorney.

Is there proof she wasn't on the beach? No. You want proofs and absolutes to prove innocence but will accept no evidence of a crime to indicate Joran is not guilty. Makes no sense.

Well I am here talking now you! YOu want evidence, well so do I!

imo

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
Guido Wever made reservations and bought a ticket to Holland a month before Natalee went missing. When Natalee went missing Guido left.

MOO

Luke this has caused me to wonder too. Of course if it were a planned trip, he would have bought the ticket early so as not to cause suspicion.
It would be good if some day we were to find Natalee in Holland and find that she chose to relocate with GW or some other person. Of course it seems beyond the realm of possiblity that she could have not been found by now if that is the case but just recently there have been several people found who went missing years and years ago. One I think was even living in the same town. Posters have commented that they think Natalee looks much different in the casual shots than in the formal one so I think she could maybe change her looks so as not to be recognized if she was trying to do so. Some people really look different with just a change in the style of makeup or hair style. One that comes to mind is the pictures of Jennifer Knesse (spelling not sure). I do not think she looked like the same person in many of the photos that were shown.
Hopefully Natalee is living well and will surface at some period. At least it would be a wonderful outcome if she did

[forensicpsy]

Originally posted by Laurus


It's when they insist on lying about the little things....that makes it look like a surveyors field, lol.

The bags were packed in her room
The passport was right there!! All by itself!! The whole time!!!
I hugged Natalee goodbye at the airport


What is the point of these lies?

And the camera which could possibly show her last moments and who she was with, oh we'll just take that, thank you very much


IMO

That's just it Laurus.

You keep trying to dig up why Beth lies and what her motivation is when (if she does lie) maybe there is no mysterious reason.

Maybe she exaggerates - maybe she distorts the truth - maybe she changes her mind from one day to the next -

The fact is that it doesn't matter except as it relates to posters who are obsessed with her. It has nothing, nada, zip to do with her daughter's disappearance.


moo

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by forensicpsy

That's just it Laurus.

You keep trying to dig up why Beth lies and what her motivation is when (if she does lie) maybe there is no mysterious reason.

Maybe she exaggerates - maybe she distorts the truth - maybe she changes her mind from one day to the next -

The fact is that it doesn't matter except as it relates to posters who are obsessed with her. It has nothing, nada, zip to do with her daughter's disappearance.


moo

Yes, the minutiae of this case and all the unanswered questions will drive anyone nuts. This is why I am eager for this civil suit to get to trial. Fact and Fiction will be sorted out and we'll have something more concrete to discuss.

Bottom line is what you posted, Forensic: Beth has nothing to do with her daughter's disappearance. She's just trying to find answers and desperately trying to keep her daughter's case alive - because she doesn't think her daughter is..........alive.

IMO.

[MiamiNice1]

Originally posted by Laurus

I've never even speculated that Mrs. Twitty physically made Natalee disappear, or had her kidnapped, none of that. But the possibility remains that she could have caused her ADULT daughters disappearance by making Natalee want to get away, maybe for a short time that grew into a long time with the awkwardness of a possible reappearance.

IMO

Yes, I know you've never blamed Beth for the physical disappearance of Natalee. My post was a general statement.

I will not disagree with you that a runaway scenario is possible.....but in Natalee's case.....the evidence, to me, does not slant in that direction and here's why:

Natalee was looking forward to too many good things that were about to happen in her life. A whole new life was going to begin for her and her friends. I can't see her turning her back on this.

IMO.

[MiamiNice1]

Just saw your ETA on your post. I'll add that I don't believe a spur of the moment decision, as too many factors would have to easily come together because the MB kids were leaving that next day (or rather that morning!).

This was an international trip with Passport required - she left her passport behind. I'm not sure exactly how much money Natalee had, but I recall she did not have a lot of money to sustain an independent lifestyle for very long.

No....Natalee had too much to do when she got back to MB and as a "responsible" girl (other than her mistake of getting in the car with 3 strangers), I can't see her on this "wild hair."

imo.

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
June 30th


How come she didn't tell Charles that Natalee had been kidnapped like she had told the highway patrol man just hours earlier?

Because she ***gulp*** lied to the nice policeman to get out of a ticket? But we don't really know for sure if there ever was a nice policeman, do we?

[cassidy]

Originally posted by Luke Davis
I would think by now FOX would have played the 911 call a thousand times. MOO

Or located the nice policeman for an inteview.

[ebnrsg1]

Originally posted by chambord



I could give you my opinion, but you wouldn't like it.

I would be interested in hearing your opinion. I think it is good to hear all angles. I for one have never considered the Croes to be more than in the background but since the discussion has been brought up and bandied about by you and others I am now wondering if there is not some connection to something. For instance does anyone know how exactly it came about that C and Beth happened to make connections on the island. I mean of the thousands of people how did it happen that he was the one to enter the picture? He identifies Joran and then the boys mention the security guards and then all at once there is another Croes corroborating the story. Did C. send S. to corroborate because of a pang of guilty conscience in identifying the boys? Did he want the guards identified to throw the investigation off the trail etc etc. Yes inquiring minds must be the topic of the board tonight

[cassidy]

Originally posted by nascarmom
Would that be the policeman that got to listen to the phone message about Natalee being kidnapped or the policeman that called the FBI for her?

Either one would do. Make for a nice human interest story while Mrs Twitty pubically thanks him for his help (or both of them for their help). How could Greta miss that?

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord
***************snipped*************

How come she didn't tell Charles that Natalee had been kidnapped like she had told the highway patrol man just hours earlier?

**************snipped***************


I'll give you one option even though earlier I posted you wouldn't like it.

For openers, Beth received a call, and that call described the Natalee "I don't know these people" with the monkey sounds in the background, and a voice saying "are you calling home" click.
In her frantic state of hearing such words, kidnap flashed in her mind.

Rushing to Aruba, on the flight, her friends and companions were reassuring her that it was silly to think the worst, and Natalee had just stayed away too long and missed her flight. When she did arrive in Aruba, she posted the "we can work it out" words, trying to let Natalee know that if she partied too much irresponsibly, that the could work it out.

I can relate somewhat to this happening, I was miles away in another state, when I received alarming news about my child, rushing home, the friends that accompanied me were reassuring me, as I was expecting the worst.

It could have happened exactly this way, so I am not confused about the conflicting stories at all. I think when she met up with Charlie, she was still of the mind set that Natalee was with this unidentified as yet Joran.


moo moo [/b][/quote]

Except that Mrs Twitty denies getting any phone calls from Natalee while in Aruba? that's where you lose me.

IMO

[cassidy]

Originally posted by chambord

The call was supposedly on the voice mail, or answering machine, of one the the MB kids.

Don't let me lose you...I think the call Beth received while she was returning to Alabama was that voice mail call. I think, imo, it was replayed for her. That's what threw her into a panic, and thinking she had been taken against her will. I would have thought the same, if I heard my child's voice saying, "I don't even know these people". Don't forget we haven't heard every word or nuance of that voice mail.


moo [/b][/quote]

But I thought that was the call Charles Croes played for her late in the night after she arrived in Aruba? I don't know. I suppose her cell phone records will answer that question.