Trayvon Martin Killing To Be Investigated By Florida Grand Jury

[weezer]

I guess you are suggesting that the SPD somehow missed the bloody phone in their investigation? I suppose it's possible, but do not see how a phone could cause an abrasion akin to a paper cut on Trayvon's finger and not do a great deal more damage to George that was done since he had no marks on his face that would indicate that he was hit with a cell phone, and the idea that Trayvon was trying to smother George with a phone is sort of ridiculous since George is missing no teeth.

not sure why you believe it would have been a 'bloody phone'? I wasn't offering the facts of the abrasion as explanation to how anything happened -- I posted the fact that there was an abrasion to your post ". . .I don't know how they got there, but I do know that if Trayvon did the things that George is claiming there would be some evidence of it on his hands, his knuckles, and elsewhere on his body, and yet there is NOT fresh injury. . ."

If Trayvon was straddling George with his knees on either side of Georges upper arms near the elbow, How pray tell did he manage to see a gun in George's waistband? He would not have had to move his hands down George's chest to go for the gun, but actually up under his own behind which would have been sitting on the gun. If however it is suggested that his knees were further down then there is no way they could have pinned George's wrists, he could have simply wiggled his hands free. It's either, or either trayvon was sitting on George's chest pinning his arms, in which case he could NOT have seen the gun, and could only have gone for the gun if he was reaching up under his own behind, Or he could have seen the gun by sliding backwards, but George's hand were free....and this is only if you accept George's statement to begin with, and I am not sure I can even begin to do that

. Unless the medical examiner is blind, then I am sure he could see obvious blood on Trayvons hands, they would not have to be swabbed to tell that he had smeared blood on his hands from George's nose wound if he had actually put his hands over George's nose and mouth as George has claimed, not only that but the picture that purports to be of George right after the fight and before he was cleaned up by emt's does not show any smeared blood under his bleeding nose I went back to look -- maybe the mustache? or anywhere else on his face from the hands that were trying to smother him, so without even considering blood on Trayvon's hands I'm unclear as to why you think Trayvon's hands would have been covered in blood the picture does not fit the story that George is telling, either he is mistaken about multiple details in his very detailed recollection or it just didn't happen that way

. I am not even going to theorize as to how you get pin pricks from flat zipper teeth, but I am sure that having your nose caught in a zipper would do a great deal more damage to your nose and your ego...

as for the zipper, you've obviously never worn a pair of zip boots and crossed your legs only to have the zipper snag your pants. I haven't looked but was Trayvon's hoodie zipped to the very top?

[Amy]

Welcome aboard, Geocyn. Well stated posts, logic and common sense!!

And, we also have to consider there wasn't just ONE version of events from GZ, there were several versions. Which one is the truth, if any?

[weezer]

startlement, or deadly FEAR, life threatening fear? And was the threat still ongoing? As far as the bang, how startled could George have been by the gunshot since he was the one that pulled the trigger, it was his gun, and he was in control, so no I do not accept startlement at the loud sound of the gunshot as HIS reason for stopping a scream immediately....I don't think he was the one screaming to begin with .

I don't think Trayvon hid, I think he was walking along puttering and talking to the girl, not in any real hurry to get back to the house and end the conversation, and I don't think he had an esp that told him that George was going to get out of the truck, but I do think that George caught up with him, since you can hear very clearly that George is not strolling on that call, he is running...

Just as you can accept George's story and find some reasonableness there, I can find logical and reasonable explanations for his injuries that have nothing to do with being beaten....so ultimately we are on opposite sides of an opinion, perhaps the trial will change my view, although I sincerely doubt it since the Defense is going to rely heavily on "What George Claims" and I put very little stock in his claims, since he was untruthful about money, I feel that he has every reason to be untruthful when his freedom is on the line.

DeeDee said she knew Trayvon was running because of his breathing and hiding because his voice got 'real quiet'. I haven't 'accepted' anything about this trial -- pro or con either side. I'm sorry if the discussion was taken otherwise. I won't interrupt again.

[Geocyn]

as for the zipper, you've obviously never worn a pair of zip boots and crossed your legs only to have the zipper snagged your pants. I haven't looked but was Trayvon's hoodie zipped to the very top?

Nope, no boots, and I am not even sure that the hoodie that Trayvon was wearing even HAD a zipper... The ones I have don't they are just the sweatshirt type over the head .The reason I mention the hands...In his statement, George claims that after punching him, Trayvon straddled him and put his hands over his nose and mouth trying to smother him. If George's nose was bleeding, either from the punch or from the injury to the end of his nose as is depicted in the graphic after the fight photos that were taken and distributed, there is a profuse amount of blood under George's nose....HOW could someone put their hands over his nose and mouth and not get blood on those hands and how did Trayvon not smear that blood that was under his nose over George's face in the process....isn't it a bit beyond belief that George's nose did not start bleeding until after all this happened and Trayvon was dead? If someone has a bloody nose, or blood under their nose, and you put your hands over their nose and mouth in an attempt to smother them, and in George's own words, put all your weight behind trying to smother them ( without them biting the bezeeus out of you) you are going to smear and flatten that blood so that it is not just under the nose, but on the cheeks and in the naso label folds, blood creeps and just kind of goes all over, especially when you don't want it to. So I can't believe in the smothering part of the story....and I find the punching part of the story to be questionable at best, so it just does not all hang together for me at all, and this is from the perspective of seeing a LOT of bloody broken damaged noses, heads smacked against hard surfaces and the result of numerous fights....it just doesn't look right and the way he describes it doesn't sound right at all.

[Geocyn]

DeeDee said she knew Trayvon was running because of his breathing and hiding because his voice got 'real quiet'. I haven't 'accepted' anything about this trial -- pro or con either side. I'm sorry if the discussion was taken otherwise. I won't interrupt again.

Please interrupt...I do have an opinion, but your point of view makes me think, and perhaps see something in a way that I would not have on my own....I enjoy discussion and don't mind that you don't share my opinion...If you convinced me, and I convinced you there would still be two points of view...If you are neutral then I applaud you, I cannot manage neutrality, sadly if it does not sound reasonable to me, I have to be proven wrong, but I don't expect to go through life without being wrong sometimes, probably more than I should be. Like you, I do also worry about getting an impartial Jury (far more impartial than me)....I hope we get one, and one in which an epidemic of common sense breaks out.

[Geocyn]

I haven't been able to bring myself to watch the jury selection -- it scares me.

Oh me too! I went slightly irrational over the last Florida Jury verdict, as I realized when I found myself screaming at the tv when the media started interviewing the Jurors afterwards....they really should have just stayed silent it would have been better

[mervin1]

Nope, no boots, and I am not even sure that the hoodie that Trayvon was wearing even HAD a zipper... The ones I have don't they are just the sweatshirt type over the head .The reason I mention the hands...In his statement, George claims that after punching him, Trayvon straddled him and put his hands over his nose and mouth trying to smother him. If George's nose was bleeding, either from the punch or from the injury to the end of his nose as is depicted in the graphic after the fight photos that were taken and distributed, there is a profuse amount of blood under George's nose....HOW could someone put their hands over his nose and mouth and not get blood on those hands and how did Trayvon not smear that blood that was under his nose over George's face in the process....isn't it a bit beyond belief that George's nose did not start bleeding until after all this happened and Trayvon was dead? If someone has a bloody nose, or blood under their nose, and you put your hands over their nose and mouth in an attempt to smother them, and in George's own words, put all your weight behind trying to smother them ( without them biting the bezeeus out of you) you are going to smear and flatten that blood so that it is not just under the nose, but on the cheeks and in the naso label folds, blood creeps and just kind of goes all over, especially when you don't want it to. So I can't believe in the smothering part of the story....and I find the punching part of the story to be questionable at best, so it just does not all hang together for me at all, and this is from the perspective of seeing a LOT of bloody broken damaged noses, heads smacked against hard surfaces and the result of numerous fights....it just doesn't look right and the way he describes it doesn't sound right at all.

How long does it take and what exactly causes a nose to bleed?

[Amy]

Pressure from a punch causes the blood vessels in the nose to break, and bleed. If it is a punch hard enough to break the nose, the bleeding would start immediately, and start gushing out immediately. Even a slap to the nose (and this from personal experience) will bring on bleeding within a second or two. A punch hard enough to break the nose would bring on copious amounts of bleeding, not just a little drizzle going nowhere.

[Geocyn]

How long does it take and what exactly causes a nose to bleed?

The entire head and particularly mucous membranes like the nares, or nose holes are very vascular, they have lots of blood vessels and capillaries that are close to the surface of the skin and the skin is thinner and more fragile than the skin on other parts of your body such as arms and legs.....Any face or head wound or any wound to the mucous membranes is going to bleed profusely, the smallest scratches can cause an enormous amount of blood, and it really doesn't take much, I have seen nose bleeds from sneezing too hard, anything that damages the fragile skin inside the nose could cause a nose bleed, High blood pressure has been known to cause a nose bleed, dry air, that dries out your mucosa could cause a nosebleed I don't understand what you mean by how long it takes, whenever the damage is done, the blood will flow until your clotting factors begin to work and stop the bleeding. Certainly a punch could, or a broken nose could. From what I can see from the pictures of George Zimmerman, the blood that you see in that picture is not coming from inside the nose, the nares, but is coming from two pinpricks on the tip of his nose, so while his nose is bleeding it is not a nosebleed per se.

[mervin1]

It's possible the first punch didn't start the bleeding or may not have hit directly on his nose. TM may have been trying to stop GZ from screaming before he punched him more. We just don't know. We do know GZ was injured by TM and was bleeding. Where the blood went, I don't know. IIRC TMs hands were not tested.

[weezer]

It's possible the first punch didn't start the bleeding or may not have hit directly on his nose. TM may have been trying to stop GZ from screaming before he punched him more. We just don't know. We do know GZ was injured by TM and was bleeding. Where the blood went, I don't know. IIRC TMs hands were not tested.

from what I know and can find information on, a nose does not necessarily bleed when broken:

What are the symptoms?

Symptoms of a broken nose camera include:
Nose pain.
Swelling of the nose.
A crooked or bent appearance.
Bruising around the nose or eyes.
A runny nose or a nosebleed.
A grating sound or feeling when the nose is touched or rubbed.
Blocked nasal passages.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/b...topic-overview

Signs and symptoms of a broken nose may appear immediately or may take up to three days to develop. Signs and symptoms may include:
Pain or tenderness, especially when touching your nose
Swelling of your nose and surrounding areas
Bleeding from your nose
Bruising around your nose or eyes
Crooked or misshapen nose
Difficulty breathing through your nose
Discharge of mucus from your nose (rhinorrhea)
Feeling that one or both of your nasal passages are blocked
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bro...CTION=symptoms

[mervin1]

The entire head and particularly mucous membranes like the nares, or nose holes are very vascular, they have lots of blood vessels and capillaries that are close to the surface of the skin and the skin is thinner and more fragile than the skin on other parts of your body such as arms and legs.....Any face or head wound or any wound to the mucous membranes is going to bleed profusely, the smallest scratches can cause an enormous amount of blood, and it really doesn't take much, I have seen nose bleeds from sneezing too hard, anything that damages the fragile skin inside the nose could cause a nose bleed, High blood pressure has been known to cause a nose bleed, dry air, that dries out your mucosa could cause a nosebleed I don't understand what you mean by how long it takes, whenever the damage is done, the blood will flow until your clotting factors begin to work and stop the bleeding. Certainly a punch could, or a broken nose could. From what I can see from the pictures of George Zimmerman, the blood that you see in that picture is not coming from inside the nose, the nares, but is coming from two pinpricks on the tip of his nose, so while his nose is bleeding it is not a nosebleed per se.

I don't know what you mean by "pinpricks"? I have not heard that before. Where did you read about that? Was it on the autopsy report? Was TM wearing a ring? I don't remember.

[mervin1]

from what I know and can find information on, a nose does not necessarily bleed when broken:

What are the symptoms?

Symptoms of a broken nose camera include:
Nose pain.
Swelling of the nose.
A crooked or bent appearance.
Bruising around the nose or eyes.
A runny nose or a nosebleed.
A grating sound or feeling when the nose is touched or rubbed.
Blocked nasal passages.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/b...topic-overview

Signs and symptoms of a broken nose may appear immediately or may take up to three days to develop. Signs and symptoms may include:
Pain or tenderness, especially when touching your nose
Swelling of your nose and surrounding areas
Bleeding from your nose
Bruising around your nose or eyes
Crooked or misshapen nose
Difficulty breathing through your nose
Discharge of mucus from your nose (rhinorrhea)
Feeling that one or both of your nasal passages are blocked
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bro...CTION=symptoms

Thank you. Good information.

[Geocyn]

from what I know and can find information on, a nose does not necessarily bleed when broken:

exactly, neither blood nor lack therof will prove or disprove a broken nose, that is done with examination, manual manipulation and or x-ray unless it is actually sideways on your face, then they can state to a reasonable medical certainty that sucker's broken. ....the blood in the picture appears to be coming from the wounds on the tip of his nose, which look as if he ran afoul of something with thorns....

In any case, it appears that he was not bleeding during the smothering incident that he describes, which leads me to wonder when he started bleeding and how he got those wounds, since when the picture was taken the fight was over.
Another layer of weirdness on an already Fubar situation, but certainly disingenuous to present the picture as a picture of his bloody and bleeding broken nose, when it is the scratches on the tip of his nose, and there was no bleeding from his nose in the video of his intake at the sally port at the Police station.

[weezer]

When to see a doctor
Seek emergency medical attention if you experience a nose injury accompanied by:
A head or neck injury, which may be marked by severe headache, neck pain, vomiting or loss of consciousness
Difficulty breathing
Bleeding you can't stop
A noticeable change in the shape of your nose that isn't related to swelling, such as a crooked or twisted appearance
Clear, watery fluid draining from your nose
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/bro...CTION=symptoms

How is a broken nose diagnosed?

A broken nose is diagnosed through a physical examination and medical history. An X-ray of the nose is not usually needed or helpful if only a broken nose is suspected. If other facial injuries or fractures are suspected, a CT scan will be done. Your doctor may wish to delay evaluation until the swelling has gone down. This may take several days.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/b...topic-overview

[weezer]

interesting Brain Games show on the Discovery Channel tonight about memory.

[Geocyn]

interesting Brain Games show on the Discovery Channel tonight about memory.

Do they tell you how to have a better one....I really need that, and considering where I work, any help in the memory department is something I am interested in.

[weezer]

Do they tell you how to have a better one....I really need that, and considering where I work, any help in the memory department is something I am interested in.

yep! very cool program.

[One2Snoop]

Good, I'm glad to hear this..........

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - The identities of jurors in the trial of former neighborhood watchman George Zimmerman will remain anonymous for an unspecified period after a verdict is handed down in the case, the judge ruled on Monday.

The decision by Circuit Court Judge Debra Nelson came after jury selection in the trial resumed for a second week and lawyers continued to try to identify jurors who have heard little about the fatal shooting of unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin.

Nelson did not say when she will decide the jurors' names might be made public. Mark O'Mara, a lawyer for Zimmerman, argued that the names should be kept confidential for six months following the trial.

http://news.yahoo.com/jury-zimmerman...221854387.html

[deacon]

It's possible the first punch didn't start the bleeding or may not have hit directly on his nose. TM may have been trying to stop GZ from screaming before he punched him more. We just don't know. We do know GZ was injured by TM and was bleeding. Where the blood went, I don't know. IIRC TMs hands were not tested.

We actually don't know that for a fact.

[One2Snoop]

We actually don't know that for a fact.

So true. Funny how she keeps preaching it like its gospel.

[One2Snoop]

No decision from the judge yet....

911 call: Judge in Zimmerman trial hears dispute

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A voice recognition researcher for George Zimmerman is discounting the methods of prosecution experts who claim that screams captured on a 911 call belong to 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and not to the ex-neighborhood watch volunteer.

Researcher James Wayman was called Monday evening by defense attorneys after another day of questioning of prospective jurors for Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial in the fatal shooting of Martin. One expert in a report had identified Martin as the source of the screams, and another testified at a pretrial hearing that the screams didn't match Zimmerman's voice.

http://news.yahoo.com/911-call-judge...075941530.html

[Amy]

No decision from the judge yet....

911 call: Judge in Zimmerman trial hears dispute

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A voice recognition researcher for George Zimmerman is discounting the methods of prosecution experts who claim that screams captured on a 911 call belong to 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and not to the ex-neighborhood watch volunteer.

Researcher James Wayman was called Monday evening by defense attorneys after another day of questioning of prospective jurors for Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial in the fatal shooting of Martin. One expert in a report had identified Martin as the source of the screams, and another testified at a pretrial hearing that the screams didn't match Zimmerman's voice.

http://news.yahoo.com/911-call-judge...075941530.html

Standard procedure, each side has their own expert and each expert refutes the others' methods and results. Wonder if there is a difference between "researcher" and "expert?" And, it seems both experts identified in essence that the screams were not GZ's altho only one says it's Trayvon's.

[Results]

No decision from the judge yet....

911 call: Judge in Zimmerman trial hears dispute

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) — A voice recognition researcher for George Zimmerman is discounting the methods of prosecution experts who claim that screams captured on a 911 call belong to 17-year-old Trayvon Martin and not to the ex-neighborhood watch volunteer.

Researcher James Wayman was called Monday evening by defense attorneys after another day of questioning of prospective jurors for Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial in the fatal shooting of Martin. One expert in a report had identified Martin as the source of the screams, and another testified at a pretrial hearing that the screams didn't match Zimmerman's voice.

http://news.yahoo.com/911-call-judge...075941530.html

I took a little time to read the comments on this article and I can't understand how anyone (I don't care what race, religion, etc.) can blame a Mother for her childs death....unbelievable. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it. Some people think GZ is guilty and some think he is innocent but to say the Mother is guilty for her son's death is just cruel and very sick. I hope they never have to bury a child. JMHO

[Luke Davis]

Do they tell you how to have a better one....I really need that, and considering where I work, any help in the memory department is something I am interested in.

Like many other things training and experience.

[Luke Davis]

We actually don't know that for a fact.

But I think it can be assumed until the state proves otherwise on the assumption that GZ is innocent until proven otherwise.

[One2Snoop]

I took a little time to read the comments on this article and I can't understand how anyone (I don't care what race, religion, etc.) can blame a Mother for her childs death....unbelievable. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it. Some people think GZ is guilty and some think he is innocent but to say the Mother is guilty for her son's death is just cruel and very sick. I hope they never have to bury a child. JMHO

We've had a few members come and go that have done the same thing. There's still one or two that posts here. It's just too bad they can't argue their case for GZ without bashing the victim and his family. It's downright disgusting.

[mervin1]

I haven't seen bashing here. What I have seen is discussion of more evidence coming out.

[mervin1]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_1...r-questioning/

George Zimmerman Trial: Pool of 40 potential jurors chosen for further questioning


Regular Vor Dire will start tomorrow. Should be interesting.

[mervin1]

Standard procedure, each side has their own expert and each expert refutes the others' methods and results. Wonder if there is a difference between "researcher" and "expert?" And, it seems both experts identified in essence that the screams were not GZ's altho only one says it's Trayvon's.

The method and training are in question. This is to prove it is not an exact science and has not advanced far enough at this time to be used at trial.

[One2Snoop]

I haven't seen bashing here. What I have seen is discussion of more evidence coming out.

Well that certainly made me LOL coming from you.