Death of Michael Jackson/Trial of Dr Murray

[SundaySunshine]

What worse could Jackson have done to young boys than molest them? Kill them?

I think Jackson could have had his pick of the very poor kids he brought there. Just give their parents a little money.

[SundaySunshine]

Must be an inordinate amount of traffic on those links, still unable to open them.

I did find this link on Murray's US citizenship. The prosecution wanted bail set high, because Murray was not born in the US. The defense countered with Murray is a US citizen, and bail should be lowered.

http://www.411mania.com/music/news/1...rad-Murray.htm

Yes, he is naturalized. Just like my mother was. I don't know why you are having such a problem with those links. They always open up right away for me.

[SundaySunshine]

Hey! Great to see you here.

Your PM box is dirty.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Wowzer!! Bombshell tonight!!!!

Anthony Pelicano, the Hollywood PI who worked for a while on the MJ molestation case, was interviewed in prison by Newsweek. Remember he went to prison for hacking/eavesdropping?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...s-silence.html

From the interview:

"..........Later in the interview, Pellicano reveals that when he agreed to work for Jackson during the star’s 1993 child-molestation case, he warned Jackson that he’d better not be guilty. “I said, ‘You don’t have to worry about cops or lawyers. If I find out anything, I will f--k you over.’ ” The detective took the assignment, but says, “I quit because I found out some truths…He did something far worse to young boys than molest them.” But he refuses to say anything more about it. It’s as if Pellicano wants to send Hollywood a reminder: I know which closets hold the skeletons."

Thanks to you and Simplicity for the welcome.

As I've been reading the Desiree blog Sunshine linked upthread, it occurs to me the way in which MJ seems to have manipulated his 'special friends,' pitting them against each other in some cases so that they 'competed' for him, and making them feel guilty if they didn't go along with his wishes, might be considered as bad as or even worse than the molestation itself. It is just so incredibly manipulative, what he did. And he cut some of them off entirely, it seems, from their real lives. I don't know how a young boy recovers from a year being Jackson's 'special friend,' living in Jacko-world 24/7. Good lord.

The parents of those boys should be taken out and shot, imo. How in heaven's name did it ever seem okay to any of them to let their young sons sleep in MJ's room, much less his bed, much less for weeks and months on end? My God, what was wrong with those parents?

ETA: And forgive me for going over ground you guys have probably known about for decades. I never kept up with MJ's 'lifestyle' or read any of this molestation stuff. I'm just and flat out disgusted.

[SundaySunshine]

That manipulation was totally disgusting. It really is stomach turning.

More here:

http://desireespeakssolisten.blogspo...october-6.html

Jordie Chandler Interview -- October 6, 1993

"This interview between thirteen-year-old Jordie Chandler and late psychiatrist Dr. Richard Garner, widely known as an expert in false child abuse claims, occurred on October 6, 1993 in New York."

[forensicpsy]

Thanks! Its been cleaned out.

Thank you for posting Desiree's blog. It's very interesting indeed. We need to find the time to confirm her postings. :

[forensicpsy]

"Jury Selection Begins in Michael Jackson Case"

http://www.wect.com/story/15224919/j...jacksons-death

(CNN) - "Jury selection is gearing up for the September trial of Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's former personal doctor who is facing charges in the singer's death.

The process for picking jurors for the manslaughter trial starts with a 30 page, 117 question document, which lawyers from both sides came up with a few months ago."

Answers that prospective jurors give to these questions will be poured over by the attorneys and their jury consultants.

Jo-Ellan Dimitrius, who's made a career of picking juries dating back to the OJ Simpson murder trial, looked over a copy of the questionnaire.

"Holy Cow, I'm just looking at the medications," she said.

In a case like this, Dimitrius said there will be people who may lie to get picked.

"The sad reality is that people have a hidden agenda, whether they want to write a book or they want their fifteen minutes of fame," she said.

[SundaySunshine]

There should be an update on the attached witness list. Hope so anyway.

[Simplicity]

ETA: And forgive me for going over ground you guys have probably known about for decades. I never kept up with MJ's 'lifestyle' or read any of this molestation stuff. I'm just and flat out disgusted.

MJ's parents set the stage for their children's future. Not one of Katherine and Joe's children are psychologically healthy. Ongoing divorces, severe weight fluctuations, body dysmorphic disorders, failure to care for their children, is common within this family.

As to abuse, the rate of frequency for those who have suffered abuse becoming abuser's is high. MJ was emotionally and mentally abused by both parents.

Post the sexual trauma it's entirely possible these children suffered from harrassment, degradation and rejection, equal to and possibly greater than sexual abuse.

Doctor's defense, Michael was a desperate man.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-04-06/j...ca?_s=PM:CRIME

[Simplicity]

Anesthesiologists see more scrutiny in the wake of MJ's death.

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/Vi...13538&ses=ogst

Propofol experts said anyone without training in the administration of general anesthesia takes a great risk by using the sedative. Indeed, the warning label for Diprivan states that “for general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, Diprivan Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available.”

This will prove a formidable problem for the defense team.

I remain at a position of equal culpability between Murray and Jackson and have no attachment to the jury's decision.

[SundaySunshine]

Culpability can be civil or criminal. I see this as a formidable problem for the prosecution team. Dr Murray is not a criminal.

I see him civally culpable and having to answer to medical board procedings, but not criminal as in this case.

[forensicpsy]

Anesthesiologists see more scrutiny in the wake of MJ's death.

http://www.anesthesiologynews.com/Vi...13538&ses=ogst

Propofol experts said anyone without training in the administration of general anesthesia takes a great risk by using the sedative. Indeed, the warning label for Diprivan states that “for general anesthesia or monitored anesthesia care (MAC) sedation, Diprivan Injectable Emulsion should be administered only by persons trained in the administration of general anesthesia and not involved in the conduct of the surgical/diagnostic procedure. Patients should be continuously monitored, and facilities for maintenance of a patent airway, artificial ventilation, and oxygen enrichment and circulatory resuscitation must be immediately available.”

This will prove a formidable problem for the defense team.

I remain at a position of equal culpability between Murray and Jackson and have no attachment to the jury's decision.

EXCEPT - The warning label doesn't say failure to follow the directions is punishable by law. Dr. Murray did not break the law.

He was negligent.He is civilly responsible for the death.

imo

[Simplicity]

I'm not in disagreement with either of you, you both may well be correct.

However, within tort law, (civil law), there is a, "reasonable duty of care." States individually may choose to apply this same standard to criminal cases, and some do, Arizona specifically.

Reference the James Arthur Ray, Sweat Lodge trial. The DT continually argued this was a civil case, yet, Judge Warren Darrow who presided over the case, stated Ray had in criminal law, "a reasonable duty of care."

The case proceeded JAR was found guilty of negligent homicide.

I am somewhat sympathetic toward Murray. I believe he suffered from celebrity seduction. Murray was taught to use Propofol by an LV physician, and I don't believe he had any malicious intent toward MJ.

I do believe he stepped out of the arena of common sense and reasonable care.

If the jury finds him NG ... I would not find this either unusual or untenable.

(Two good references on the Sweat Lodge Trial: Salty Droid, (attorney), and Rick Ross Message boards, Stoic and Anti-Cult)

[SundaySunshine]

Interesting article. Very long. I especially noticed this snippet.

http://entertainment.timesonline.co....cle6829624.ece

Snippet:

“Hamad said, ‘A fan of yours would like to speak to you.’ Then an unfamiliar voice came on the line. ‘Hi, it’s Michael.’ He was speaking in his natural voice, not the high whisper he used in public.”

I once heard he had a low man's voice.

[Simplicity]

MJ did have a low voice naturally ...

I forgot who stated that during his pedophile trial, a PR coach was brought in to help clean up MJ's public image.

MJ was told ... "You need to tell the public you have two different persona's, one is this whacky public persona, the other is in your private life you live normally."

MJ's answer, "I can't do that, they're both the same," ...

[SundaySunshine]

I'm not in disagreement with either of you, you both may well be correct.

However, within tort law, (civil law), there is a, "reasonable duty of care." States individually may choose to apply this same standard to criminal cases, and some do, Arizona specifically.

Reference the James Arthur Ray, Sweat Lodge trial. The DT continually argued this was a civil case, yet, Judge Warren Darrow who presided over the case, stated Ray had in criminal law, "a reasonable duty of care."

The case proceeded JAR was found guilty of negligent homicide.

I am somewhat sympathetic toward Murray. I believe he suffered from celebrity seduction. Murray was taught to use Propofol by an LV physician, and I don't believe he had any malicious intent toward MJ.

I do believe he stepped out of the arena of common sense and reasonable care.

If the jury finds him NG ... I would not find this either unusual or untenable.

(Two good references on the Sweat Lodge Trial: Salty Droid, (attorney), and Rick Ross Message boards, Stoic and Anti-Cult)

Civil is a different standard of proof. Civil is a preponderance of evidence. Criminal is beyond a reasonable doubt.

I don't see a connection with the Sweat Lodge Trial. For one thing there was more than one victim and, of course, a different set of circumstances. I believe that verdict was iffy anyway. Maybe it's a good thing this trial is in CA and not AZ.


Is negligent homicide in AZ the same elements as involuntary manslaughter in CA?

[SundaySunshine]

MJ did have a low voice naturally ...

I forgot who stated that during his pedophile trial, a PR coach was brought in to help clean up MJ's public image.

MJ was told ... "You need to tell the public you have two different persona's, one is this whacky public persona, the other is in your private life you live normally."

MJ's answer, "I can't do that, they're both the same," ...

bbm

I wonder which voice the young boys heard?

[Simplicity]

[/B]

bbm

I wonder which voice the young boys heard?

The voice that carried the greatest possibility of seduction.

We'll simply disagree on the JAR trial. I have personal experience with both Ray, and did watch most of the trial, it was broadcast on CNN. Ray is another narcisisist who placed participants at risk for years with numerous injuries at his events. The sweat lodge, under his instruction, created a situation where those inside suffered from heat stroke and death. Ray's committed a deliberate act, to serve a personal agenda, financial.

As to comparison between AZ and CA law on negligent homicide, I don't know if they are similar.

California ... Misdemeanor

Attorney answers (3)

Robert Lee Marshall

Posted over 1 year ago. This attorney is licensed in California.
There is no offense entitled "criminally negligent homicide" in California.

Involuntary manslaughter, killing someone by committing a misdemeanor, or through recklessness, is punishable by up to four years in prison.

Reckless ... in law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recklessness_(law)

[forensicpsy]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/08/09/...urray.hearing/

"Attorneys for Michael Jackson's doctor face court deadline"

Los Angeles (CNN) -- Lawyers defending Michael Jackson's last doctor in his involuntary manslaughter case face a Tuesday deadline to satisfy a judge's order ahead of the trial's start.

The lawyers for Dr. Conrad Murray have been ordered to hand over to prosecutors all of the statements and reports gathered from potential defense witnesses.

California court rules require both sides to meet certain discovery requirements 30 days before a trial starts, which is Tuesday in the case of Murray, who is charged in Jackson's 2009 death.

"We've been down this road before, and I hope we don't have to go down it again," Los Angeles County Superior Court Judge Michael Pastor said during a hearing Monday after prosecutors complained that the defense was holding back.

[Simplicity]

Keith Olberman's interview of Deepak Chopra the day following MJ's death.

"Michael could obtain any drug he wanted, and was addicted to both Demerol and Oxycontin." "He had no problem getting any drug he wanted."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roRcIoO1iQY

[Simplicity]

LK interview with Chopra in which Jackson mentions the drug, (Propofol), which takes him into the, "Valley of Death."

Chopra states the only cases up this point known to him of self-administered Propofol have been by physician or medical professionals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo4fS...eature=related

[SundaySunshine]

As Pastor says, they've gone down this road before. The defense is not being cooperative with the State according to the State. Doesn't surprise me. It's what defense lawyers do.

They may be having trouble getting statements from the hostile witnesses they have.

After all, a lot of them tried to get their subpoenas quashed.

[Simplicity]

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...127232718.html

Snipped ...

Judge Michael Pastor said the questionnaire falls under the case's protective order, meaning it will not be released publically before the jury pool fills it out. Lawyers are prohibited from talking to the media about it.

A questionnaire featured in media reports over the weekend was not likely the current document and was probably "related to an old draft" Pastor said.

I'm pleased to read jury selection will occur in a private setting. It's unfortunate to see in past cases juror's have been both harrassed and threatened.

Puzzling as to why juror consultants believe there is a rush to be on the MJ jury, (fame and fortune). California law prevents any juror from accepting monies for 6 months post trial.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

The voice that carried the greatest possibility of seduction.

We'll simply disagree on the JAR trial. I have personal experience with both Ray, and did watch most of the trial, it was broadcast on CNN. Ray is another narcisisist who placed participants at risk for years with numerous injuries at his events. The sweat lodge, under his instruction, created a situation where those inside suffered from heat stroke and death. Ray's committed a deliberate act, to serve a personal agenda, financial.

As to comparison between AZ and CA law on negligent homicide, I don't know if they are similar.

California ... Misdemeanor

Attorney answers (3)

Robert Lee Marshall

Posted over 1 year ago. This attorney is licensed in California.
There is no offense entitled "criminally negligent homicide" in California.

Involuntary manslaughter, killing someone by committing a misdemeanor, or through recklessness, is punishable by up to four years in prison.

Reckless ... in law

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recklessness_(law)

Unfortunately, too many men given status and power abuse it, often with terrible, tragic, devastating consequences.

MJ with his 'special friends'
Ray with his true believers
Warren Jeffs with his cult followers
Etc.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Keith Olberman's interview of Deepak Chopra the day following MJ's death.

"Michael could obtain any drug he wanted, and was addicted to both Demerol and Oxycontin." "He had no problem getting any drug he wanted."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roRcIoO1iQY

Several MJ friends/insiders came forth in the days immediately following his death to discuss his substance abuse.

But within a few weeks/months, they had all been silenced by the MJ for Sainthood crowd.

[SundaySunshine]

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/lo...127232718.html

Snipped ...

Judge Michael Pastor said the questionnaire falls under the case's protective order, meaning it will not be released publically before the jury pool fills it out. Lawyers are prohibited from talking to the media about it.

A questionnaire featured in media reports over the weekend was not likely the current document and was probably "related to an old draft" Pastor said.

I'm pleased to read jury selection will occur in a private setting. It's unfortunate to see in past cases juror's have been both harrassed and threatened.

Puzzling as to why juror consultants believe there is a rush to be on the MJ jury, (fame and fortune). California law prevents any juror from accepting monies for 6 months post trial.

I'm glad the jury will be protected, but it is unfortunate that once the trial starts, it won't last unless sequestered. The media will give out little biographies of them like in the Anthony case too. Six months is not a long wait to put out a book.

[Simplicity]

Desiree's blog is a worthy read. She's spot on with her comments on LaToya, MJ and Katherine.

In publishing, 6 months would be too long a wait for a book from the juror's. To generate interest the topic needs to be, "hot." This case is a mis-demeanor, and wouldn't hold 6 months past the verdict, regardless of the jury finding him guilty or innocent.

Even the Jackson's can no longer sell themselves, book or concerts. Joe couldn't sell his MJ memorial in Gary, Indiana.

[SundaySunshine]

Involuntary manslaughter is a felony. It is the lowest form of homicide that can be charged.

[Simplicity]

I stand corrected on the felony charge.

Jury demograhics. Prosecution team would prefer fans of MJ on the jury, defense team would prefer those who thought MJ, "odd." No surprise in preferences for either side.

Fan demographics of Madonna, Elvis, Beatles, MJ.

http://blog.rapleaf.com/blog/2009/07...-social-media/

"I want to go out like Elvis, not like Marlon Brando."

http://www.nationalledger.com/pop-cu...o-669195.shtml

[Simplicity]

Juror selection set to begin on September 8, opening statements, September 26.

http://www.examiner.com/young-adult-...s-expectations

[SundaySunshine]

I just heard a promo on HLN that Dr Drew will have a patient of Dr Murray's on his show tonight. Should be interesting. 9pm EST.

[forensicpsy]

I just heard a promo on HLN that Dr Drew will have a patient of Dr Murray's on his show tonight. Should be interesting. 9pm EST.

Oh, yes. I heard that yesterday. I believe Dr Murray saved his life.

Should definitely be interesting.

imo

[forensicpsy]

http://www.wavenewspapers.com/entert...127467358.html

"Lawyers meet deadline in Jackson's doctor's case"


"Defense lawyers for Michael Jackson’s last doctor met Wednesday’s deadline for handing over documents to prosecutors in the involuntary manslaughter case, clearing the way for the start of the trial in 29 days."

[forensicpsy]

"Murray Trial Opening Statements Expected Week of September 26th"

http://www.myfoxla.com/dpp/news/loca...ments-20110810

[Simplicity]

I did watch Drew last night, and one of his guests was Deepak Chopra. I checked this am and later today to see if there was a segment on you tube.

Both did focus on MJ's addictions, his demanding behavior and multiple docs providing prescriptions. Chopra discounted the entire Jackson family conspiracy nonsense.

[SundaySunshine]

It seems to me Dr Drew may be less bias regarding Dr Murray's guilt then I thought he would be. I think most talk shows on HLN will be very much against him during the trial as well as In Sessions. I saw last nights show also.

The patient was on the phone to Dr Drew and did say Dr Murray saved his life. He said he was diagnosed with congestive heart failure by other doctors, but Dr Murray found out what was wrong and went in and fixed it. He said Dr Murray if very thorough and an excellent doctor.

[Simplicity]

I agree Sunday ... I think we'll see most of the support primarily for MJ.

It was good to hear patient support for Dr Murray tonite, although I wasn't listening closely. I heard one question/statement by Drew, "When did you ever hear of Propofol being used outside of a hospital? Answer, "Never." Drew, "Me either."

Propofol was/is used on an ongoing basis in medical clinics.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

I did watch Drew last night, and one of his guests was Deepak Chopra. I checked this am and later today to see if there was a segment on you tube.

Both did focus on MJ's addictions, his demanding behavior and multiple docs providing prescriptions. Chopra discounted the entire Jackson family conspiracy nonsense.

The Jacksons, with the possible exception of Janet, just don't seem to be very bright people. They come up with all this whacky stuff like the conspiracy theory, but they don't have the mental capacity to think things through to a logical conclusion. Every random idea that pops into their heads seems to come out their mouths without filtering or processing or reality checking it.

[GollyGeeWhiz]

Sunday -- before I forget it, just wanted to tell you I heard an attorney on HLN yesterday, first name Drew, who agrees with you that this should have been a civil vs. a criminal charge.

[Simplicity]

GGW ... I'd be interested in any legal perspectives on civil vs criminal charges. If you hear of anything please post it. I think there will be little information between now and the trial, jury selection will be closed.

I'm planning to watch the Prop 8 trial, start date 9/8, which will be broadcast throughout California, and shouldn't run more than a few weeks.