GUN DISCUSSION ~ Models, Casings, Residue, Theories. . .

[FDInLaw]

Crime Scene photos (casings):



http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/...42&nextimage=0

[FDInLaw]

Helpful links:

Research from information taken from crime scene photos:

WHAT ABOUT THE CASINGS AND BOX OF SHELLS?...

The .17 are HMR Hornady magnum rimfire are "necked in".
The casings at the scene were. 22 rimfire.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg
The .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire (left) along with its parent cartridge, the .22 Magnum (right). While comparisons between the two excellent cartridges are inevitable, the .17 HMR was designed to fill a performance niche not met by any rimfire cartridge.
http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger_77-17.htm
http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html
(resource: "InSession" Message Board/Justice Dawg/ 12/30/08)
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1) casing at the crime scene - 1.5 cms and NOT necked in
http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/...42&nextimage=0

2) typical .22 LRs - casing length is 1.5 cm
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...liber_22lr.jpg

2) On the left, a .17 HMR (like the ones in the Hornady box at the scene. On the right, a .22 LR. It's obvious that the .17 HMR's casing is significantly longer than the .22 LR's. Also, the .17 HMR's casing is "necked in" at the top.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...and_22LR_B.jpg
(resource: "In Session" Message Board/ChanginWinds/ 12/30/08)
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Would the Mossberg rifle (whose manual was in a crime scene photo) be able to fire the 17HRM cartridges?
I believe no because it's a Mossberg 702 Plinkster, which according to this link http://www.mossbergintl.com/pages/702plinkster.htm is a .22.
The manual even specifically says on page 4 that it is only designed to operate with .22 long rifle cartridges. Mossberg does make a newer model (817) that does work with .17HMRs.
So am I right that the casings found at the scene would also be consistent with the Mossberg being the weapon?
(resource: "In Session" Message Board/ChanginWinds/ 12/30/08)
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"Because the rifle can be used as a single shot, it will fire whether a magazine is in the rifle if a cartridge is chambered." It also says that "if desired, the rifle can be single loaded with a cartridge directly into the chamber." And the"702 features an automatic bolt lock."
www.mossbergint.com/manuals/702_RevD.pdg
(resource: "In Session" Message Board/Muska/ 12/30/08)
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Lawsuit Info: http://www.apacheclerk.net/
01-2008
Case Number: J-0905-CV-20080009 Case Category: Civil Case Title: HR LAND DEV VS ROMERO & BONILL
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Lyrics to Crunk Juice cd photographed in Tim's truck console:
http://www.metrolyrics.com/crunk-jui...side-boyz.html
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FBI/Gun Powder Residue Testing/General
http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2006/...gsr-tests.html

Chipmunk Gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foeiuG64FfY


Mossberg 22 Plinkster (possibly missing from crime scene/case found open and empty in Vincent's bedroom)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5znoO...eature=related



Photograph of a .17 Hornady shell next to a .22 caliber shell
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Ruger_77-17/Mvc-022f.jpg

Explanation of a firing arm:


http://www.rock-hill.k12.sc.us/teach...ballistics.htm

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...ogID=463437844


Special thanks to childsVOICE!

[SaraSidle]

Crime Scene photos (casings):



http://www.azfamily.com/perl/common/...42&nextimage=0

thanks FDInLaw. very interesting..........sara

[tr7fan]

well ive heard that the ballastics dont match on the guns taken from the scene and the fired bullets retrieved

[FDInLaw]

well ive heard that the ballastics dont match on the guns taken from the scene and the fired bullets retrieved

Has this been reported in the media at all?


Welcome to the board!

[FDInLaw]

I asked the chief if he wanted me to photo graph the scenebeforethebodieswereremoved. He said that Sgt. Rodriquez had already taken some pictures, but that I could photograph the scene as well. I asked if any specific areas needed photographing in addition to the bodies. He said they had found blood spatter on the driveway and porch, as well as some shell casings, but a thorough search of the area had not been completed yet. Chief Melnick told me proceed as I felt necessary. I retrieved my camera and evidence markers from my truck and began photographing at the northwest comer ofthe property..
000019
EXTERIOR
Starting at the northwest comer ofthe property, I began photographing the exterior ofthe property. The house is a two story wood frame, blue-gray in color with white trim, with the front door facing north. The house has a second entry on the south side. A balcony is located on the north side covering the front porch. There are windows on the ground level on the north side facing ih Street and windows on the west side facing 15th Place. On the south side are two windows on the ground level. A four wheeled utility vehicle was parked by the house on the south side and a motor home was parked in the back yard near the south property line. On the east side ofthe property was a wooden shed structure and a trampoline. There are no windows at ground level on the east side of the structure. A concrete driveway is on the east side ofthe structure. On the north side, between 7th Street and the house, a graveled area separates the main portion of the property from the roadway. A silver Dodge crew cab pickup was parked on this graveled area directly in front ofthe house. The driveway extends from this gravel area to the front edge ofthe north east comer of the house. A small lawn edged by concrete block is located at the front ofthe house, extending west from the concrete driveway to the western edge of the porch. I photographed the silver pickup, identified as belonging to Timothy Romans. I then marked the location of the blood spatter on the driveway. Using my flashlight I cleared a path across the grassy area, to provide access to the front door and the body located in the porch. I marked this path with orange flags.
I moved to the front porch area and scanned for items of evidence. I observed several shell casings that I believed to be 22 caliber rimfire cases located near the body on the porch. The casings were marked and then I moved to the body. The body, later identified as Timothy Romans, was lying face down, with the head in front ofthe screen door, on the door mat. A pool ofblood was forming under his face. The blood appeared to be coming from his nose and mouth. I was unable to discern any obvious wounds to Mr. Romans at this time. The screen door was open approximately six to eight inches, resting against Romans' head. I observed a hole in the screen, approximately six to seven inches from the bottom ofthe door and 10 to 11 inches from the right hand edge ofthe door.
Movingleft(eastacrossfront ofhouse)from thedoorIobservedapack ofcamelcigarettes, ablue Bic lighter, two Sinex nasal inhalers and a visine bottle, lying on the porch near Romans' left foot. A line of blood spatter was noted leading from the body to the north end of the drive way. After marking the blood trail, I then asked Chief Melnick to show me where he and Sgt Rodriquez had walked inside ofthe house when they checked the second body. During this time period, Chief Melnick and I were the only officers I observed inside the taped perimeter.
INTERIOR
Chief Melnick and I entered the house through the front door. Immediately inside the door I observed a wire pet kennel with a bolt action rifle lying on top ofit. To the left of the kennel was a laundry closet with the doors open. To the right was the living room area of the house. Just inside the door to the right was an opaque plastic storage bin, sitting next to the wall. A black nylon insulated cooler was in front ofthe storage bin. A glass end table was to the right ofthe storage bin. A brown love seat, facing towards the west wall, separated the living room area from the entry way. A glass end table was located at the far end ofthe loveseat. The south end ofthe entry way is bordered by the wall extending from the laundry closet and forming the north wall of the stairwell. A wall extending into the structure from the west exterior wall forms the south wall ofthe living room, separating it from the kitchen.
The kitchen consists of an L-shaped counter along the south wall of the house, with the L extending towards the living area. A kitchen island stands between the separating wall and the south wall ofthe home.
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The refrigerator stands in the comer formed by the western and southern walls. The extension of the L counter forms the entry way ofthe rear door, located on the south wall. To the left ofthe rear entryway is a bathroom, located between the south and east walls ofthe structure. The stairwell is located between the bathroom and the laundry area, and is located against the eastern wall of the home.
Chief Melnick pointed out a rimfire shell casing on the second step ofthe lower stair way, he then said that the second body was located on the upper stairway. The Lower stairway consists of eight steps, facing east, ending in a landing. The landing extends to the right (south) with seven steps facing west creating the upper flight of stairs. The upper floor is comprised of a landing, approximately 7 foot by 10 foot, with four rooms leading off of it. Directly off ofthe top of the stairs on the left is a bedroom, identified as Christian Romero's room, located in the southeast comer ofthe upper floor. On the right ofthe landing is the master bedroom, occupying the north side of the upper floor. Across the landing is a third bedroom located in the south west comer of the upper floor, identified as Timothy Romans' room. A bathroom is located between Christian's room and Timothy's room.
At the top ofthe stairs, I observed a male subject lying face down, with his arms beneath his body. This man was identified as Vincent Romero. Romero was face down with his head and upper chest across the top step, his body extended down the flight of steps with his feet above the third step from the lower landing. I observed a rimfire casing on the third step and one on the fourth step, both near the south wall of the stairwell. Romero was lying with his face directly on the upper landing in a pool of blood. I observed several pieces oftissue in the blood that appeared to be brain matter. There was also blood spattered onto the south wall ofthe stair way across from where Romero's head was lying. I noticed that Romero was still wearing his hard hat and his safety glasses. In the center ofthe landing I saw another rimfire case lying on the rug. I marked the casings and then photographed all of the items. I then took video of the areas starting in Roman's room and moved through all rooms ofthe upper floor. I then filmed down the stairs, around the lower floor and back out the front door. I then filmed the front porch area out to the street.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Guinn.pdf

[FDInLaw]

The Associated Press

FLAGSTAFF – Gunshot residue has been found on the clothing of a 9-year-old Arizona boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man, but a report doesn't specifically identify the boy as the shooter.

Lead, barium and antimony, known to be associated with gunshot residue, were found on a pair of pants and a long-sleeved shirt taken by police after the Nov. 5 shootings, according to the report released by prosecutors Monday.

Whether the boy came into contact with a gun hasn't been a question in the case. The boy admitted to police that he fired at least two shots at each of the men, and defense attorneys say there's no question the boy was in the home with a recently fired weapon.

Based on tests, the report said the boy's shirt and pants might have come into contact with or were in close proximity to a discharged firearm.

Peter Diaczuk, director of forensic science training at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice's Center for Modern Forensic Practice in New York, said the examination of the boy's clothing isn't particularly telling, other than to confirm the boy was at the crime scene.

"This is neither damning for the defense nor incredibly probative for the prosecution," Diaczuk said. "It's just a matter of tidying up loose ends."

Police have said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to fatally shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans in St. Johns as the men returned home from work. He faces two counts of premeditated murder.

The next hearing in the case is set for Tuesday.

In an interview with police, the boy told investigators he could have walked into some "smoke" that was trapped in the hallway of the St. Johns home where the two men were shot and got some gunshot residue on his clothing as a result.

Gunshot residue from a .22-caliber gun can travel three feet on average, and discharging the rifle doesn't produce "big clouds of smoke," Diaczuk said. Unless the boy walked into the cloud of smoke immediately or fairly soon after the shootings, he said it would be unlikely that much gunshot residue would adhere to his clothing.

"Small particles can be stirred up easily, but would that many get stuck on his clothing? Probably not," he said.

The report recommended that the ammunition and weapon be submitted for further testing. Diaczuk said that could determine whether the bullets that hit the men came out of the gun taken into evidence.

On Friday, defense attorneys amended a request to Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca to appoint a therapist for the boy. Roca denied an amended motion earlier last week, saying his concerns about pay, duration of sessions and whether or not the therapist would have to testify about her exchanges with the boy were only superficially addressed. . .

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/b...ews/106838.php

[FDInLaw]

Clothing worn by a child accused of murder in St. Johns tested positive for gunshot residue and his fingerprints were found on a box of ammunition, according to lab reports disclosed Monday.

But independent experts question the significance of both pieces of evidence.

The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time. A report from the Bexar County Criminal Investigation Lab in Texas says more than three-dozen particles of lead, antimony and barium were found on a long-sleeved shirt and denim pants the boy wore the day his father and a friend were killed. Michael Martinez, a forensic scientist who analyzed the garments, concluded that the clothing may have come in contact with, or been close to, a discharged firearm.

However, the FBI and other law-enforcement agencies have stopped using gunshot-residue tests because cross-contamination and other problems can lead to dubious conclusions.

The St. Johns boy is not being identified by The Arizona Republic because of his age.

Police accuse him of killing his 29-year-old father and 39-year-old Tim Romans with a .22 rifle on Nov. 5.

In a videotaped interview, the child first denied responsibility for the killings, then told police that he shot the men to end their suffering after they had been wounded by someone else.

Police reports said the boy later told a social worker that he had kept a tally of his spankings and vowed that 1,000 "would be his limit."

Steven Howard, a Michigan attorney and expert on shooting reconstruction, said tens of thousands of microscopic particles are expelled when a firearm is discharged. Upon learning that the St. Johns boy's clothes were collected a day after the crime - and that his skin was not tested at all - Howard criticized investigators. "Number 1, they're stupid," he said. "Number 2, they're stupid. Number 3, they're stupid. . . . This is just a case of poor police work."

St. Johns police, who viewed the boy as a victim at first, are under a gag order and could not be reached for comment. Prosecutors and defense attorneys also are prohibited from commenting on the case.


Residue controversial

Howard said gunshot residue has become controversial in the forensics world because innocent defendants can be tainted without firing a weapon, especially if they sat in a patrol car, touched a gun or were near the weapon when it was fired. The St. Johns boy was from a hunting family and had been in the room where his father died.

Police records say the boy's pants and shirt were retrieved from a relative's home the day after the slayings. Howard said he would expect to find dozens of particles under those circumstances, "even if he took the clothes and hung them in a closet."

John Cayton, a firearms examiner and former chief criminalist with the Kansas City, Mo., Police Department, said residue testing remains an important tool and described the number of particles found on the boy's clothes as "significant." But he also questioned whether the garments were contaminated elsewhere. Cayton added that it is not uncommon for small-town investigators to overlook evidentiary protocols because they often lack training and experience with homicides.

Boston police scrapped gunshot-residue tests in 2005 and the FBI followed suit a year later after acknowledging widespread contamination in its own lab, according to the Sun of Baltimore. Numerous other agencies have re-evaluated their validity.

Howard contends that gunshot residue is virtually useless in proving guilt, but the lack of particles may exonerate defendants.

Proceedings against the boy have been suspended until his competency to stand trial is determined. Because he may be found incapable of understanding the legal system, Apache County prosecutors have sought to dismiss one homicide count, allowing them to charge him with that crime years from now, when he has matured.

Judge Pro Tem Michael Roca refused to allow the dismissal, prompting prosecutors to file an appeal with the state Court of Appeals. That issue is pending.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...06stjohns.html

[FDInLaw]

While speakingwith Apache County Chief Deputy Brad Carlyon and Depll1ty County AttorneyJason Moore I explained to them I had seen a picture ofthe possible suspect rifle and was told it was a youth model Chipmunk .22 calsingle shot bolt action rifle.
I explainedtothem itappeared to bes;mL!aT to a riflebelonging to my son,. I spoke withthem about the way the gun functions. To load me rifle, me bllJlt wOl.dd nave to be' opened and eacb cartridge placed in the chamber. Then tne bolt closed and firing P~!1 mechan,ism pulled back before firing. Once the gun was fired tbe bolt would have to be opened to extxact, then eject the empty casing. Thentbe cycle must be repeated before beingable to fiTE~ the gun agan.
We also discussed how loud the report ofthis type of rifle would be. I explained as far as decibels wereconcernedIwasunabletosay. ButhavingpersonalexperiencewiiliasimilarrifleIexpl ained the rifle is substantially quieter than a hand gun ora higher caliber firearm. I beLieve the report of thefirearm would possibly be muffledtothepointtilt'shotsmaynotbeheardweI!enouln iffired from within a bouse to raise alarm to nearby neighbors or even someone sitting in a vehicle or preoccupiedWith somethingsuchaswatchingTVortalkingona cell phone.
There are many .22 caliber long nfte buUets available. Many of these do not baV'e the velocity to break the speed! of sound (112:9 ills) and if tbis were the case witb the bullets fired from the suspect firearm it would not produce the air piercing crade that faster bullets would, further quieting the report.and dett-easing the distance the shots could be heard from. I am unsure ofthe type and grain of bullets fired from the rifle to know for a surety if this were the case in this instance, but could be a possible reason why more ofthe shots fired during the Romero! Romans homicide were notheard

http://www.november2008stjohnsdouble...load/Hogle.pdf


It looks like this did not copy well. . . please see link!

[FDInLaw]

well ive heard that the ballastics dont match on the guns taken from the scene and the fired bullets retrieved

Mossberg 22 Plinkster (possibly missing from crime scene/case found open and empty in Vincent's bedroom)

(From childsVOICE myspace page)


Have you heard anything about missing guns???

[tr7fan]

Has this been reported in the media at all?


Welcome to the board!

no its from an anoymous source:

[tr7fan]

(From childsVOICE myspace page)


Have you heard anything about missing guns???

iirc the prevalent is there is no missing gun it was just the box was thre
in the 222 pages page 213 its identified as a glenfield 22 with a scope but it seems the links arent working anymore and due to there server i only got 103 pages of that saved
pray for this kid theyre trying real hard to railroad him
i read on another board of a possible affair between the grandpa and tiffany
that would explain the the car like grandpas that cr saw
then tiffanys having a druggie boyfriend
and a girlfriend (nicole) who lives with tiffany now
life is crazy huh

[FDInLaw]

Sounds like a round of small town rumors to me!


MOO



Thanks for posting.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Sounds like a round of small town rumors to me!


MOO



Thanks for posting.

I agree. It seems like small town rumors, imo.

[FDInLaw]

I agree. It seems like small town rumors, imo.

Hey Stranger!

Haven't see you around much. Is discussion slow on In Session today? (Guess I should go see lol).

[Jadedblueeyes]

Hey Stranger!

Haven't see you around much. Is discussion slow on In Session today? (Guess I should go see lol).

Hi there FD!

I haven't posted here in a long time. Probably over a year or more now.

I don't know, I haven't been on line much today.