8-Year-Old Boy Arrested In Double-Homicide - Arizona

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First part of Deputy interview with 8 year-old murder suspect

• RAW: First part of child's interview

• VIDEO: Captions from boy's interview

• VIDEO: What the tape says

• PHOTOS: Double-murder scene

• Murdered man's funeral

• Details on the interview

[SIZE="1"]http://www.azfamily.com/[/SIZE]

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Boy, 8, charged with murder says he came home, found men dead

[SIZE="1"](CNN) --[/SIZE] An 8-year-old Arizona boy suspected in the deaths of his father and another man can be heard in a videotape of his police interview telling officers that he shot both men after he came home from school.

Authorities released the tape Tuesday.

The boy, sitting cross-legged in an overstuffed armchair, initially denied any involvement in the shootings but later said he shot his already wounded father "because he was suffering."

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[SIZE="1"]http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/...iref=hpmostpop[/SIZE]

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Ariz. boy: Someone shot dad, renter before I did

[SIZE="1"]ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -[/SIZE] An 8-year-old boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said in a police interview released Tuesday that he did not fire the first shots at the men but later shot them so they wouldn't suffer. The boy gives conflicting accounts of the shootings during an hourlong video of his interview with authorities in St. Johns, but the video ends with him admitting to pulling the trigger. He then buries his head in his jacket

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[SIZE="1"] http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1108/571095.html[/SIZE]

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Video: Boy calmly talks about day of dad's death

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[SIZE="1"]http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/...h/?partner=RSS[/SIZE]

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St. Johns residents: Young murder suspect's tape is confusing

Many people in St. Johns don't know what to make of a video tape in which an 8-year-old boy talks about the shooting deaths of his dad and another man in his home in the small eastern Arizona town.

• St. John's Police Interview with suspect: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 -- (@ Link Below)

The tape was made the day after 29-year-old Vincent Romero and 39-year-old Timothy Romans were found shot to death in Romero's home. Romans rented a room there. In the tape, the boy said he fired at least two shots each at the men.

A woman who did not want her name used said the tape did little to shed light on what happened.

"To me, it's almost like he's making up a story. Either somebody put him up to it or he can't comprehend in his head whether he did it or not."

She said the suspect is known as a very smart kid.

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[SIZE="1"]http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=993592 [/SIZE]

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[SIZE="1"]ON THE RECORD W/ GRETA[/SIZE]

Accused 8-Year-Old Murderer's Police Interview Raises Legal Questions

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[SIZE="1"] http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454530,00.html[/SIZE]

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Experts: Interrogation of boy, 8, 'out of bounds'

. . . . .

[SIZE="1"](CNN)[/SIZE] -- The third-grader's legs dangle from an overstuffed leather chair as he answers the questions of two female police officers. His manner and voice are casual, even helpful, but his words are shocking.

And so, legal analysts say, were the methods police used to obtain them.

By the time the boy was finished talking, say police in St. Johns, Arizona, he'd confessed to a premeditated double murder.

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[SIZE="1"]http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/...ssion.tactics/[/SIZE]

[One2Snoop]

[SIZE="3"]UNREAL![/SIZE]

I don't see how they got out of this conversation that he was the one who shot them?

ITA Joseph!

[One2Snoop]

I think you and I and a whole load of other people are wondering exactly the same thing, 12S. Talk about leading questions! Talk about jumping to conclusions!
You would think that if LE had some fire proof evidence that the child committed the murders then they'd make it public. I mean, they made this video public, which IMO was not the smartest of moves.

Why has the case only now been moved to Juvenile jurisdiction? He's 8 years old! Who do LE think they're dealing with? Billy the Kid?

IMO this situation is dealing with small town (po dunk ) meaning they have squat and are inexperienced with this sort of situation - I'm thinking this is one time LE should've kept their mouths shut until they had all their ducks in a row - hindsights 20/20 on their end IMO.

After listening to the video tapes - I have no doubt this 8 year old kid was mislead/confused and I'd like to say without certainity he didn't commit this crime. I think I may need to listen awhile longer - but gut tells me no way he did this. I read elsewhere the 8 yr old witnessed a car speeding away as he came home from school - any updates on that situation?

[odette]

IMO this situation is dealing with small town (po dunk ) meaning they have squat and are inexperienced with this sort of situation - I'm thinking this is one time LE should've kept their mouths shut until they had all their ducks in a row - hindsights 20/20 on their end IMO.

After listening to the video tapes - I have no doubt this 8 year old kid was mislead/confused and I'd like to say without certainity he didn't commit this crime. I think I may need to listen awhile longer - but gut tells me no way he did this. I read elsewhere the 8 yr old witnessed a car speeding away as he came home from school - any updates on that situation?

Can't find much at all about the car which the boy allegedly saw, only that it was a "white sedan", and that he shot "at a car he said was speeding away from the house."

8-year-old admits double shooting in police video

Excerpt: During the interview, the boy's accounts of the shootings change from him never having touched a gun, to throwing one he found in the home in a closet, to shooting at a car he said was speeding away from the house.

[SIZE="1"]http://broadstripe.net/news/read.php...ARSDCCL2_UNEWS[/SIZE]

Hearing slated for boy charged with fatally shooting dad

Excerpt: When he finally returned, the boy said, he saw a white sedan race down the street at high speed. Then he looked at the house: "I saw the door (was) open and I saw Tim (Romans) right there. And I ran and I said, 'Dad! Dad!' And I went upstairs and I saw him. And there was blood all over his face. And I think I touched him. I just kind of checked to see if he was a little bit alive."

[SIZE="1"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...shooting_N.htm[/SIZE]

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Judge Makes Key Rulings In Slayings

[SIZE="1"]ST. JOHNS, Ariz[/SIZE]. -- An 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in eastern Arizona will be allowed to spend Thanksgiving with his biological mother.

Judge Michael Roca on Wednesday agreed to allow the boy to leave juvenile detention from noon on Nov. 26 until noon on Nov. 28. The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

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[SIZE="1"] http://www.kpho.com/news/18017746/detail.html[/SIZE]

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8-year-old accused of murder can go home for holidays

The 8-year old St. Johns boy accused of killing his father and another man will be allowed to go home to his mother's for Thanksgiving.

Judge Michael Roca has agreed to let the boy leave juvenile detention from noon on Nov. 26 until noon on Nov. 28.

The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

the judge put some stipulations on the visit. There can be no guns or knives in the home during the visit.

If the child doesn't return to detention on time, arrest warrants will be issued for both the boy and his mother.

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Young murder suspect can spend holiday with mother

[SIZE="1"]ST. JOHNS, Ariz[/SIZE]. - An 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in eastern Arizona will be allowed to spend Thanksgiving with his mother, a move that drew criticism from the family of the second victim. The boy and his mother, Eryn Thomas, sat beside each other in court Wednesday in St. Johns, often leaning over and whispering into one another's ear. The boy, wearing a navy blue shirt and pants, was free from the cuffs he wore in a previous hearing.

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8-Year-Old's Confession Draws Fire

Taped Interrogation Of Child Accused Of Killing Dad "Absurd," Says CBS News Legal Analyst

[SIZE="1"](CBS/AP)[/SIZE] The 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in Eastern Arizona was subjected to an "absurd" police interrogation, a legal analyst told CBS' The Early Show Thursday.

"What we know is that children under 12 are especially susceptible to questioning by an adult," legal analyst Lisa Bloom said.

Excerpt: St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick has said he would push for the boy to be tried as an adult, though some analysts think even a juvenile court trial would be too much.

"Children this age believe in the tooth fairy, they believe in magic … it's absurd," said Bloom. "This child should not be in juvenile court or adult court, in my opinion. He should be a ward of the family court and get some social service attention."

Prosecutors have 15 days to decide if that's the route they want to take.

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[SIZE="1"]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4619936.shtml[/SIZE]

[Serial Killer X]

Well, finally the child will get to spend some time with his mother. But no knives, weapons whatever? And he's been in handcuffs? I repeat, does LE think they're dealing with Billy the Kid here?

How could you possibly try an 8 year old as an adult? Can someone explain that to me? Could someone explain that to the child?

I don't know Mr Bell but obviously they think it's the right decision i disagree strongly, i doubt the child would be able to grasp the concept of life imprisonment let alone jail. Still i hope they don't go for charging him as a adult.

[sharlock]

Well, you and I SKX both have probs with the concept of an 8 year old being charged, as an adult, with double murder.

But to be truthful if it was going to take place it would be in America so apparently there are a lot of people in the land of truth and justice that don't agree and beleive that if a chld kills it is the same as an adult killing.

I hated the interview with those two trying to be so motherly to a scared child all to get him to say something incriminating. To me it is obvious they thought he was lying and a suspect before the interview even starts and that continues the whole way through so if this is allowed into court I will be shocked.
The truth is though that watching it I first thought oh they are twisting it all up in his head and now he is just agreeing with anything they put to him but... and I hate to say this but I thought there were some telling moments that lead me to suspect this boy did kill them both.
When he talks about killing the boarder he mentions he is scared that someone is going to come after him. He talks about putting his dad out of his misery and the way he said it it made me thinnk that this is something that has been said to him before and a scenario of a Dad saying stop feeling sorry for your self or I'll get the gun and put you out of your misery sprung to mind. The fact he says that he often will aviod coming home on the 2 days his Stepmum doesn't finish until 5 makes me think that he could have had good reason for not wanting to be alone there with those men? I know this is speculation and nothing would make me feel better than to find out I am wrong but if I am not I worry that people will turn on this child and allow him to be tried as an adult.

[sharlock]

Who says he killed anyone? LE is seriously wrong on this one. IMO. You can make an 8 year old child say anything. Believe me.

Sharlock; I know this is speculation and nothing would make me feel better than to find out I am wrong but if I am not I worry that people will turn on this child and allow him to be tried as an adult.

I know I couldn't get my 6 yr old to say this but I think you are right too, this kid is under a lot of stress and I noticed that they have only released about 35mins of an interview that went on for over an hour so I hope you are right, I was just sharing my gut reaction to the tapes.

[sharlock]

Hey Shaz that's cool. I probably prefer not to believe than an 8 year old could do this but if he did well then. I'm more stirred up about how it's been handled and how the child has had his rights trampled on.

I just read that the prosecutor is asking for the charge of murdering the father to be dropped but he won't say why. That's at least one step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. However, I then read that the charge could be refiled at a later date. I must admit that I don't understand that.

Wow, I'm a bit bamboozled by that too but I think I smell a defense coming on. I want to no more. ITA that it is the handling of this investigation that is of concern here. This is the age where kids will come home upset because the heard a Yr 7 in the toilets saying Santa Claus wasn't real! How the American justice system can even consider trying this boy as an adult is a question I find most disturbing. The fact that it even could be thought about makes me feel sick. Help is what a child at this age needs no matter what the crime.
I have read comments elsewhere where people have said if he is old enough to kill then he is old enough to be tried as an adult; my response would be if this is the way your society truly feels then these children should have the same rights as adults, drive cars drink alcohol whatever, the reason we don't do that is because they haven't finished cognitively or physically developing and still need to be told not to stick sharp things into power sockets, or light a firework and hold onto it for God's sake. They don't understand consequences yet it is that simple.

[sharlock]

PHOENIX — It is very unlikely that the videotaped confession of an 8-year-old Arizona boy who is charged with killing his father and another man will be admissible in court, legal and child-psychology experts say.


Mother Baffled in Arizona Murders (November 13, 2008)
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. — A week after the police charged an 8-year-old boy in the premeditated shooting deaths of his father and another man, the boy’s mother, teachers and others who know him say they are no closer to understanding the roots of such a heinous crime.
“I don’t believe he did this,” said the mother, Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared custody of her son with his father, Vincent Romero, 29, since the couple divorced six years ago. She said she talked to the boy every week and visited an average of once a month, driving the 20 hours to St. Johns from her home in Mississippi.
Ms. Bloomfield had just returned from her latest visit when she got a call about the shooting and immediately returned to St. Johns, a windy hamlet of horse ranches, low-slung houses and double-wide trailers about 170 miles east-northeast of Phoenix. The largest buildings are a few churches and schools along the single main road, which has no stoplights.
“People like their independence and freedom here,” said Wendy Guffey, 60, a substance abuse counselor at a local health clinic. “It’s sort of the redneck ethic. A lot of people haul their own water and live off generators and candles out here. Back to the land.”
Many of her clients struggle with unemployment, drugs and tedium. “A lot of people around here say there’s nothing to do,” Ms. Guffey said.
Ms. Bloomfield described her son as a “normal boy” who played video games nonstop and doted on his new dog, a boxer. But in recent months, she said, he “seemed to be changing.”
“There was a distance with me after a while,” she said.
Whenever she spoke with her son, Ms. Bloomfield said, “I had to go through Tiffany,” a reference to his stepmother, Tiffany Romero. “Tiffany would always sit there while he talked to me on the phone, and after a while, he became more and more distant.”
She worried, she said, that the boy might be being abused although she had no proof.
Before Judge Michael P. Roca of Apache County Superior Court blocked anyone connected to the case from talking to the news media, Police Chief Roy Melnick of St. Johns said there was no evidence that the boy had been abused at home or in school.
A person answering the door at the Romero home on Tuesday said Tiffany Romero would not discuss the case because of Judge Roca’s order.
Ms. Bloomfield said that after her son told her that his father and stepmother quarreled often, “I called Tiffany about that, and I think I got my son into trouble.”
“The next time I talked to him about it,” she added, “he said that Tiffany told him that ‘what happens in this house stays in this house.’ ”
Ms. Bloomfield also said that her son was close to his father, and that the two regularly played softball and basketball, and went hiking and hunting together, sometimes joined by the other man who was killed, Timothy Romans, 39. Mr. Romans worked in construction with Mr. Romero and rented a room in the family house.
Ms. Bloomfield confirmed that after first seeking permission from their parish priest, her ex-husband recently bought their son a .22 rifle for hunting, a common pastime of young boys and their fathers in this town of about 4,000 people.
The boy “took his religious faith very seriously,” said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church. It is the church where the Romeros were married in September, and where hundreds of townspeople turned out for Mr. Romero’s funeral on Monday. “I just don’t know what happened to him spiritually, emotionally,” she said.
“This is going to take a while to get over,” Sister Angelina said. “Parishioners have come to me asking why it happened. I just don’t know.”
Ms. Bloomfield expressed disgust at rumors sweeping the town, among them that her son killed his father because he had not been allowed to go trick-or-treating on Halloween. “This town is too small,” she said. “Everybody thinks they know what happened. They’re saying all kinds of things about my son. They have smashed him down to nothing.”

cont...

[sharlock]

Chief Melnick has said only that the boy unexpectedly confessed to the killings during the second of two interviews on Nov. 5. Neither a lawyer nor a family member was present either time, the chief said, because the boy was being questioned as a witness, not a suspect.
Prosecutors charged the boy as an adult, and Ms. Bloomfield said she was terrified they would also attempt to try him as one. The boy is scheduled to undergo three psychological examinations in the coming weeks to determine whether that is possible.
A Phoenix defense lawyer, Karyn Klausner, who is a former municipal judge, said that for the boy to be tried as an adult, the tests must show that he is competent to understand the charges against him, has a basic understanding of the court process and is able to assist in his defense. In addition, prosecutors must prove that he cannot be rehabilitated by the time he turns 18 and leaves the juvenile justice system.
Ms. Klausner said she was appalled that the authorities were considering such an option. “There’s no way on God’s green earth that an 8-year-old should be subject to the adult system,” she said.
Prosecutors also have what Ms. Klausner called the unlikely option of deciding that the boy is incompetent to stand trial, detaining him in a psychiatric facility until he is deemed competent, and then trying him as an adult.
In a separate case, a county judge in Bisbee, Ariz., on Monday denied a motion to try as an adult a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother. In that case, court mental health evaluators determined that the boy could be rehabilitated by the time he turned 18.
The sight of her young son being led into court in shackles on Monday was especially upsetting, Ms. Bloomfield said. His hands were bound to a security belt that had to be looped around his waist three times because of his small frame. The judge ordered the restraints removed.
“I blew some kisses at him and told him to put some in his pocket for later,” the mother said. “Later he told me he needed more kisses to put in his pocket.”
The next hearing, set for next Wednesday, is to focus on requests by defense lawyers for DNA, blood samples, ballistics and other forensics evidence from the crime scene.
Two of the boy’s friends, Lucas Graf, 12, and Jude Chavez, 11, said they, too, were baffled as to how someone with whom they wrestled and swam in the scorching summer just past could have committed such a brutal act.
“He’s a nice kid,” Lucas said. “He’s normal.”

[One2Snoop]

Lawyers Drop One Murder Charge Against Boy
Other Murder Charge Remains; Move Could Signal Cracks In Prosecution's Case

ST. JOHNS, Ariz., Nov. 22, 2008

CBS/AP) The Apache County Attorney is seeking to dismiss one of two murder charges against an 8-year-old boy who is accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man.

The motion filed late Friday seeks the dismissal of the first-degree murder charge stemming from the death of the boy's father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero. The boy is also charged with first-degree murder in the death of 39-year-old Tim Romans, Romero's roommate.

The motion explicitly allows the refiling of the charge if it is granted.

The prosecutor's office wouldn't explain its actions. The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, declined to comment Friday, citing a gag order in the case.

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns allege that the boy killed both men with a .22-caliber rifle in their home on Nov. 5.

A well-known Arizona defense lawyer not involved in the case said there could be many reasons why a charge would be dismissed.

"There's some reason legally or factually that they don't want to proceed with that murder at this time - and that normally means there's something they need to investigate further - the case is not ready to proceed," Tucson attorney Mike Piccarreta said.

Romero and Romans were found dead Nov. 5.

Police say the boy confessed to the killings. But he gave conflicting accounts of the shootings in an hourlong video of his interview with authorities in St. Johns.

A 12-minute segment of the video was posted Nov. 17 on Phoenix television station KTVK's Web site. The station said it got the video from the prosecutor's office in Apache County, where the shootings occurred.

But a legal analyst on CBS' The Early Show Thursday called the police interrogation "absurd."

"What we know is that children under 12 are especially susceptible to questioning by an adult," legal analyst Lisa Bloom said.

"I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think," the boy said toward the end of the hour-long interrogation, though Bloom notes that the admission comes only after repeated officer questioning.

"Children tell authority figures what they think the authority figure wants to hear," said Bloom. "This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns."

A defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, has said police overreached in their questioning of the boy, who was not represented by a family member or lawyer during the interview.

This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns.
Lisa Bloom, legal analyst

On Wednesday, a judge ruled that the boy will be allowed to spend the Thanksgiving holiday next week with his mother, a move that drew criticism from the family of the second victim.

St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick has said he would push for the boy to be tried as an adult, though some analysts think even a juvenile court trial would be too much.

"Children this age believe in the tooth fairy, they believe in magic … it's absurd," said Bloom. "This child should not be in juvenile court or adult court, in my opinion. He should be a ward of the family court and get some social service attention."

Authorities and the defense attorneys have been unable to answer questions about the case since the court issued a gag order.

A status conference in the case has been scheduled for Dec. 8.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/...n4627742.shtml

[sharlock]

A defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, has said police overreached in their questioning of the boy, who was not represented by a family member or lawyer during the interview.
Quote:
This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns.
Lisa Bloom, legal analyst

Thanks 12. That's the article I read (and thanks to grneyes who supplied it to me earlier). How does the prosecution, if this should go to trial and I'm hoping it won't, hope to admit the interview into evidence? I understand this is a reasonably small community and I think the police chief in charge is scrambling like mad for some form of damage control (hence the news gags)

But didn't someone in that police dept think that something was a little bit bizarre to put it mildly with interviewing the boy with no parents, no legal counsel, no Miranda rights (if he could understand them) and then charging him with double murder. You would have thought alarm bells would be screaming!

From what I can gather it seems they simply have had no experience dealing with these types of case; it is absolutely no excuse though as you do not have to deal with children suspected of murder in order to understand that they have rights too like any other citizen.

[William Anthony]

From what I can gather it seems they simply have had no experience dealing with these types of case; it is absolutely no excuse though as you do not have to deal with children suspected of murder in order to understand that they have rights too like any other citizen.

Very well put and I saw the mother on television giving an interview, in which they played a snippet of the interrogation and I did not hear a confession in that part. I heard him say he may have shot someone, after it was suggested that he tell them he did.

[One2Snoop]

Police Report: Boy Kept Tally Of Spankings

POSTED: 1:20 pm MST November 26, 2008
UPDATED: 7:51 pm MST November 26, 2008


ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions." He said the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

Police have said the boy planned and methodically carried out the killings of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, who rented a room in the family's two-story home in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

Documents show that Romero was shot four times, and Romans was shot six times.

In another police report released Wednesday, the boy's grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

Other documents were released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office. In one of them, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings.

She said she "knew this would happen" and said she had a feeling the boy committed the crimes.

"They were too hard on him," the police report quoted her as saying. "He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."

The boy was released from juvenile detention on Wednesday to spend Thanksgiving with his mother.

Judge Michael Roca granted a 48-hour furlough to the boy last week during a hearing in Apache County. The boy is to return to custody by noon on Friday.

If he doesn't, Roca says an arrest warrant will be issued for the boy and his mother, Eryn Bloomfield.

An attorney for the boy, Benjamin Brewer, says he's hopeful the boy will have a good time while he's out.

Roca has said the boy must stay within a certain area in Apache County and no knives, video games or cable television can be in the home where he's staying.

A status conference in the case is scheduled Dec. 8.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

[sharlock]

Well first of all I'm glad to hear the child has an attorney and from his statements so far, Brewer appears to be good. Thanks for posting this, 12. Haven't heard anything for a while. I thought a gag order was still being applied? Then how come these highly selective snippets of info have been made available? I wonder...

I can just imagine an 8 year old keeping a ledger? H'm. So, he writes down how many times his father spanks him. This automatically makes him a double murderer? This kid is being tried before he even gets near a courtroom and I hope no trial ever occurs.

I also note step mother is an AKA. Not quite the loving, nuclear family that was 1st portrayed. Lots more to come on this one. I just hope the child is with people who really are interested in his welfare. And if grandmother really made that remark, then not with her.

What does AKA stand for?

[sharlock]

According to some reports, the kid's mother was the issue in his anger toward the father. The mother figure is the most important icon in the universe since Christ and before. That little boy should not have been forced to live with his father IMO. TOo young to needy and too unable to cope without maternal nurturing. Guns don't belong within reach of 8 year old children. It was a no brainer. Much less teaching a child how to shoot a gun.
What's the question?

All my own opinion.

I agree with you but I think it's impossible for us to know why he stayed with his Dad. Still a boy that age does need love and affection and I do see that a lot of Fathers make the mistake of trying to toughen their sons up around this age. Teaching him to use guns was totally crazy but not locking them away where he couldn't reach them was just downright irresponsible. I have to stop myself though because it feels a bit icky saying this about a man who was murdered while we are still unsure of the facts.

[Twinners]

Prosecutors offer plea deal to child suspect
8-year-old boy charged with killing dad, man; child had tallied spankings

PHOENIX - Prosecutors offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their Arizona home.

Complete details of the offer were not spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court's Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Criss Candelaria wrote that he had "tendered a plea offer to the juvenile's attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations."

Police have said the boy planned and methodically carried out the killings of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, who rented a room in the family's two-story home in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

In Saturday's development, Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued in a Nov. 25 filing that prosecutors wanted the charge dismissed so they could refile it when the boy was older and press the case in adult court.

'Difficult to assess'
Brewer said Saturday the deal would resolve the case without it being transferred to adult court, although he declined to provide additional details. Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

"It is going to be difficult to assess what (the boy) can or cannot enter into," Brewer said on Saturday. "But certainly we're looking at it."

In Arizona, those convicted as juveniles can only be held until they turn 18. The law allows prosecutions of juveniles age 8 and above as adults.

The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system just isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns found Romero and Romans shot to death after the boy ran to a neighbor's house on the afternoon of Nov. 5. He was questioned after Romans' wife raised suspicions about him the next day, and in a videotape released by prosecutors he admits pulling the trigger. Romans worked with Romero and rented a room in his home.

Each man was shot several times with a single-shot, bolt-action .22-caliber rifle.

His grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, it was him. Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

The boy remained in a county juvenile facility, although he was allowed a 48-hour furlough to spend Thursday's Thanksgiving holiday with his mother.

The next court hearing is set for Dec. 8.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27971173

[sharlock]

It's astounding that 8yr olds ca be tried ssd an adul there. I agree with BB and think this case should be dropped and the little boy should be helped in everyway possible. I know that might be hard for the family of the murdered men to accept but it truly is the most humane, reasonable and honorable course of action. I believe a society can be judged on the way they treat their children and this just doesn't look good IMO.

[Its just me]

This is such a sad story. I raised two sons and have two grandsons with one being 7 years old. I can't imagine him coming close to being capable of planning a murder and he is a smart little guy. We may never know the full truth unless a defense attorney digs it out and until proven wrong I say there is more to this story than a 8 year old shooting 2 men. I think it's possible what the child told in the beginning was basically the truth and was lead into changing his story.
I read where the stepmom was the one to spank him...and I cried when I read the dad and stepmom was only married in Sept. A new stepmom of 2 months should not be spanking a stepchild under any circumstance. This little guy breaks my heart where it's proved he pulled the trigger or not.
----------------------------------
At St. John the Baptist, Romero sang in the choir and his wife had also signed up. The couple spent two years preparing for marriage, and when they tied the knot in September the "church was packed," Sauter said.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1108/568397.html

[sharlock]

Absolutely IJM and JB.
BTW sorry about my last post it gives new meaning to illiterate lol!

[sharlock]

It's OK. I can read between the lines. Keep on posting.

LOL just try and stop me, I am supposed to be doing assignments and I think to myself I will quickly check CL and without fail end up on here till 3am. I am going to impose a hiatus on myself soon until I have finished my assignments because I have no self control.

[aldred]

Self Defence. Dismiss the charges. Charge the community instead for failing to care for its weakest and most vulnerable.

[sharlock]

8-Year-Old Accused of Killing Father Offered Plea Deal
Saturday , November 29, 2008




ST. JOHNS, Ariz. —

Prosecutors offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their St. Johns home, court records show.

Complete details of the offer weren’t spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court’s Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Chriss Candelaria wrote that he has “tendered a plea offer to the juvenile’s attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations.”

Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing for the shooting deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, earlier this month.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued in a Nov. 25 filing that prosecutors wanted the charge dismissed so they could refile it when the boy was older and press the case in adult court.

Brewer said Saturday that the deal would resolve the case without it being transferred to adult court, but he declined to provide additional details. Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client’s ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer’s opposition filing that he wasn’t trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn’t equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.
“It is done to ensure that the juvenile and the two murder victims in this case do not fall through the cracks in the system that might occur if both charges remain in the pending delinquency petition,” Candelaria wrote.

Candelaria explained that the boy could be found incompetent to stand trial, and if that happened, the court’s options would be limited.

The court would be required to order efforts to restore the boy to competency, but if that couldn’t be done within about eight months, the judge would be required by law to dismiss the criminal case and bar it from being refiled.The court would then be required to initiate civil commitment proceedings, Candelaria wrote. If the boy is found incompetent because of his age, he wouldn’t fit the definition of a mentally disordered person and no treatment would be available.

“Such a result denies the victims and public of any sense of justice for these heinous murders,” Candelaria wrote. “It also denies the juvenile the rehabilitative services that he apparently needs to both deal with why he was capable of committing these murders and to assist him with the grief and remorse that he is probably feeling.”

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns found Romero and Romans shot to death after the boy ran to a neighbor’s house on the afternoon of Nov. 5. He was questioned after Romans’ wife raised suspicions about him the next day, and in a videotape released by prosecutors, he admits pulling the trigger. Romans worked with Romero and rented a room in his home.

Each man was shot several times with a .22-caliber rifle.

Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

The boy is being held in a county juvenile facility, although he was allowed a 48-hour furlough to spend Thanksgiving with his mother.

Brewer said he is now back in custody. The next court hearing is set for Dec. 8

If anyone has any newer updates than this, I'd be interested to read them.

Mr B Brewer is doing a fine job, IMO. And I also think the prosecutor is dealing with the fact that he probably doesn't have a chance. But we'll see. I find it interesting that the stepmother raised suspicions about the child. H'm.

The Az judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8 year old being charged with double murder? Then why the hell was the child charged with double murder in the 1st place and IMHO Az needs to send this statute to the shredder.

It was the boarders wife who cast suspicion on him not the stepmother but other than that I agree with you 100%

[sharlock]

Thanks Shaz. I got the men mixed up.

No worries JB!

[Its just me]

Thanks for the update. I agree its good there is a good defense attorney and judge. I believe in spanking children but 5 times in one night....The step mom may need some attention.
I am against dropping the charges now and then filing them again when this child is older. "If" he did this it is a horrible thing but an 8 year old is not responsible enough to have access to a weapon. It’s very sad the dad and his friend are gone but it's the price you chance when you teach kids to shoot a gun and leave it so the child can see it much less use it.
Again if this kid did the shooting he did it as an eight year old… not as an adult and if punishment is in order at anytime is should be the punishment that fits an 8 year old.
Prayers things will be handled appropriately for the situation….Maybe I’m too soft on kids but I’ve always figured I was mostly responsible for my kids’ doings. I don’t know… I never had a murder to deal with but I think I'd feel responsible. A very sad and touching case and I still have the mind set that there is more to the story than what's been told. Something seems to be amiss.

[Vanillaangel]

Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Somehow I can't imagine this innocence, at the tender age of 8, even beginning to understand all that's befallen him in such a short time.

[samanthajane13]

No clear cut way to handle 8-year-old's case
By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 20 mins ago



FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – What do you do with an 8-year-old boy charged with two counts of premeditated murder?

Prosecutors and a defense lawyer in rural eastern Arizona are struggling to come up with an answer in the shocking case of a child accused of shooting his father and his father's friend early last month. Outside experts fascinated with the case are just as perplexed.

Although Arizona law allows 8-year-olds to be found delinquent and to be charged as adults, experts say children at that age are far from fully formed mentally and most don't understand the finality of death and the consequences of murder.

"Almost by definition, whatever they do has to be tailored to meet his specific individual needs, and it's not like 'Oh, we've got just the program for this young man. We'll send him here or we'll send him there.' That's not going to work," said Charles Ewing, a psychologist and law professor at the University at Buffalo Law School.

Prosecutors in the case in the small community of St. Johns are conflicted. They say in court documents that the juvenile system is ill-equipped to handle the third-grade boy.

It's not their desire, they say, to "persecute" a child who may not fit the description of normal. But they also say a balance must be struck between rehabilitation and justice for the victims while considering the boy's "tender age."

Police say the boy planned and methodically carried out the shootings, using a .22-caliber rifle when his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Tim Romans returned home from work on Nov. 5.

In a police interview, the boy admitted firing at least two shots at each of the men, but the child's attorney has questioned the admissibility of the confession because no lawyer or parent was present.

The boy also told police in the interview that his stepmother had spanked him five times the night before the shootings because he did not bring home some papers from school. According to documents later released by prosecutors, the boy kept a tally of spankings, vowing the 1,000th would be his last.

Judge Michael Roca recently ordered all proceedings stayed until competency evaluations of the boy are complete; a state expert is expected to evaluate the boy on Dec. 17. Lingering issues include a prosecution motion to drop one of the murder charges against the boy.

Prosecutors also have offered a plea deal. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer has said he's considering the offer, which would resolve the case without transferring it to adult court.

Apache County Attorney Criss Candelaria wrote in a court filing that the deal would resolve all the charges but neither he nor Brewer will discuss details of the offer. Attorneys in the case are bound by a gag order that often prevents them from commenting on filings or developments.

The case has tugged at the hearts of people across the country, who look at their own children and question how an 8-year-old could possibly have been responsible for such a crime.

"It is not a crime in the traditional way we define a crime," says Marsha Levick, legal director of the Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia, "because he simply lacks the intent to commit a crime."

While many states would allow the boy to be held accountable and even tried as an adult, Levick said that doesn't mean an 8-year-old should be thrust into the criminal justice system.

"I think there should be great doubt in the public's mind of whether this child is even guilty of the crime," she said. "Even if he in fact pulled the trigger, treating him as an adult, holding him responsible in the same way we hold adults responsible is completely inappropriate."

No child 8 years old or younger committed homicide in the United States during 2005-2007, according to FBI statistics.

In 2000, a 6-year-old Michigan boy shot a first-grader at school with a gun he found at the house where he was living. The prosecutor declined to charge the boy, saying common law doesn't allow a child under the age of 7 to be held criminally responsible.

Only 13 states have set a minimum age at which children can be adjudicated delinquent, according to the National Juvenile Defender Center. In eight of those states, the age is 10; Arizona statute specifies an age of 8; three states set a minimum age of 7; and in North Carolina a 6-year-old can be found delinquent.

That there's no consensus among states adds to the difficulty in dealing with children charged with crimes. Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston, said the Arizona case is so extraordinary that even those who would support rehabilitation for the boy would likely be ambivalent.

"There's not a guideline, there's not a profile," he said. "This is all going to have to be ad-hoc. They're going to have to make it up as they go along. Hopefully, not only will they satisfy the need to punish but they'll also make sense."

Brewer, the defense attorney, has objected to the prosecution requests to drop one of the murder charges. He contends it's a tactical move aimed at trying to refile the charge when the boy is older.

If the boy is convicted in juvenile court, he could be locked up until he's 18. Brewer fears the boy could be in prison for life if he were transferred to the adult system.

The boy has been in juvenile custody since his arrest except for a 48-hour period when he was allowed out to spend Thanksgiving with his mother. She has said the boy is housed separately from the older children.

Currently, there are no 8-year-old children in Arizona's juvenile or adult corrections systems. The average age of children incarcerated in the state juvenile corrections department is 15, and the youngest was 11, said Nancy Molever, spokeswoman for the juvenile department.

"With an 8-year-old, that's going to be really no more a challenge than any other kid," she said. "Every kid who comes to us has their own set of challenges, their own needs."

Minors in the adult system are housed in a separate unit, said Nolberto Machiche, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Corrections. In the past 20 years, no child younger than 12 has been housed there. Currently, the youngest is 15, Machiche said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/.../child_charged

[sharlock]

[SIZE=3]This case continues to trouble me. I once wrote about this topic in an assignment and thought I would share some of that work as it relates to this case. Remember this was from an assignment and I am not a published author. I offer this as a personal viewpoint and am happy for my ideas to be critiqued but would prefer not to have people comment on my writing technique or lack of . lol![/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]This pervasive fear that once innocence is gone a child may be beyond redemption gives rise to distinct repulsion in treating a child as if they had rights. “If they think they can get away with that then they will try to get away with everything” springs readily to mind. Holland went one step further and said “repressive attitudes may well represent a panic-stricken and sometimes vicious response to the increasing power and visibility of children in the public world.”(Holland, 2004, p. 14) As conventions on the rights of the child take form through the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) society’s unease grows; because the perception of the child’s purity stems not from the idea that a child is inherently innocent due to any kind of divine intervention, but more from their sheer lack of experience.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Occasionally society is given a reason considered good enough to reveal their true misgivings in regards to the corruptibility of children. One such occasion was the murder of James Bulger by two young boys aged 10 and 11yrs, in England. The public was outraged and literally sacrificed the boys on the public alter. “The case was seen as evidence of a malign influence that was spreading like cancer through the younger generation and had to be stamped out.”(Paul, 2003, p.120-156) It seems the public’s collective psyche couldn’t cope with their ideal of the innocent child being disgraced. Nothing short of evil could have done this and there could be only fire and brimstone for such evil. The boys were publicly named and ferociously attacked without mercy and the following milieu was that of violation and disgust; the pervading emotions that of revenge and hate. By betraying society’s notions of a child the boys had effectively forfeited their right to any longer be considered a part of English society and that feeling still persists today. Adults seized the opportunity for tighter restrictions on children to control their behaviour and limit their expressions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]In stark contrast to England’s reactions a murder with incredible similarities occurred in Norway where two six year old boys murdered their playmate, a young girl. Norway’s society held the belief that children of this age could not be punished for such a crime and their focus instead of taking the form of retribution, focused on rehabilitation for the children. This community, while upset at the loss of a child, embraced the two boys, responsible for her death, back into their schools and provided them both with additional support structures to help them cope with what had happened. The girl’s mother holds the belief, along with the rest of her society, that this was the only thing to do and any other action such as jail would have been unconscionable and have served no purpose. This society only wished to rehabilitate the children and bring them back into the folds of their community. It is easy to see the reverberating effect social constructs, such as childhood images, plays in how a society deals with and treats their children; when looking at these two, almost alternate realities, in reaction to the gravest of situations. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]A lot can be learnt from Norway’s example to show the importance of having realistic images of childhood and the ability to place the child’s needs above all else. Childhood in Norway is seen as an integral and important part of society and children are treated accordingly. There was no backlash of adult restrictions imposed on the children of Norway following the murder because the Norwegians did not perceive that suddenly all children exposed to so heinous a crime would be infected by it. Prout and James (1997) show using a collection of cross-cultural studies that Norwegian children are trusted to care for themselves from 10years of age but point out that this did not come about due to a lack of day care availability but due to the children’ s reluctance to want to use these services and desire to care for themselves. As Norwegians have always believed a child should be playing outside with mates when not in school or working; they view children as capable and deserving of a right to their own views, so this was a natural progression for them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I would love to see them follow the wonderful example set by the Norwegians. It was interesting to note the grieving Mum of the girl killed was just as much in favour of rehabilitating the boys as everyone else. She couldn't fathom that a child might be treated as an adult or punished as one! Just goes to show.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

[One2Snoop]

[SIZE=3]This case continues to trouble me. I once wrote about this topic in an assignment and thought I would share some of that work as it relates to this case. Remember this was from an assignment and I am not a published author. I offer this as a personal viewpoint and am happy for my ideas to be critiqued but would prefer not to have people comment on my writing technique or lack of . lol![/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]I would love to see them follow the wonderful example set by the Norwegians. It was interesting to note the grieving Mum of the girl killed was just as much in favour of rehabilitating the boys as everyone else. She couldn't fathom that a child might be treated as an adult or punished as one! Just goes to show.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

This case really puzzles me and I from where I sit, not understanding anything, I truly appreciate your input sharlock.

ITA the boy should be rehabilitated somehow and he's far to young to understand the consequences of his actions. WOW - I'm trying to think back to when I was 8 years old - I do know I still belived in Santa Claus - I can't help but wonder if he did?

[susie31023]

I really don't want to offend anyone here but, I am troubled by this case and the one Sharlock mentioned in Norway. Killing at any age is horrific. I just don't know what to think. Children are my soft spot, and I can't stand to think of any of them being abused or hurt in any way. That being said we as a whole have come to expect our kids to grow up so fast that it terrifies me at times. Gone are the days of kids being kids, even the young ones are getting cell phones and walking around by themselves at malls. We have many children here in the US that kill. Are they all capable of being rehabilitated? I would pray they are but in reality some really aren't. So how do you tell the difference? I honestly don't know. I can only pray that our Higher power watches over all of our little ones and keep them all safe. Such a very sad case, it tears my heart out. ~Suz