Tape & Cord

[Rupert]

I am starting this thread as discussion was getting involved about the cord and tape on another thread with different topic. As Jayelles noted some good background is found at:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Duct+Tape+on+Mouth

Same Suretape was found at McGuckins (but we are not sure if it was from the same production run).

I note the cord as well as tape was retailed at McGuckins (as indicated by link from Braveheart on Jamesons Webbsleuths). It sounds like our perp was visiting McGuckins. Couple that with the fact that the same type of tape (although different batch) was found on paintings taped by the photography store for the Ramseys - and it concerns me.

There is a link by the tape to the photography studio ("Better Light Photography") which I can not find. Does it no longer exist and why?

Is there a possible link to that photography studio by the cord?

Wasn't there a photo of JonBenet with some cord trimming on her blue jacket?

[Evening2]

I am starting this thread as discussion was getting involved about the cord and tape on another thread with different topic. As Jayelles noted some good background is found at:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Duct+Tape+on+Mouth

Same Suretape was found at McGuckins (but we are not sure if it was from the same production run).

I note the cord as well as tape was retailed at McGuckins (as indicated by link from Braveheart on Jamesons Webbsleuths). It sounds like our perp was visiting McGuckins. Couple that with the fact that the same type of tape (although different batch) was found on paintings taped by the photography store for the Ramseys - and it concerns me.

There is a link by the tape to the photography studio ("Better Light Photography") which I can not find. Does it no longer exist and why?

Is there a possible link to that photography studio by the cord?

Wasn't there a photo of JonBenet with some cord trimming on her blue jacket?

Although that wiki is not a good source (as it contains mostly opinion rather than fact), I don't see anything stating that the tape, same run or not, was found at McGuckins. Am I missing seeing it or what?

[Jayelles]

Just for the recored, the wiki is NOT "opinion rather than fact" but rather a collection of all available sources on any particular subject. It has always seemed to me that some people did not properly comprehend the concept of a wiki.

Miss Marple made the JonBenet wiki and it is a work in progress. Just because a particular piece of information is missing from a wiki doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It *may be* that it doesn't exist, but it also may be that it does exist and just hasn't been added in.

The whole purpose of a wiki is that as information is discovered, it can get added in or as better/more relibale sources are discovered, they can supercede the previous ones.

Miss Marple is a distinguished academic and his research credentials are impeccable (I know this to be a fact). However, he was always asking people to check the wiki and let him know if there was anything which should be added.

[Rupert]

I found that the cord is Stansport N-50 from a more updated:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The+Cords

It is known as Coglan's cord as well and perhaps that is why it was thought of as parachute cord by Trip Demuth. As noted it was sold at athe time in McGuckins and Boulder Army Store. Interestingly, I also searched for Stansport product and found Ramsey Outdoors based in New Jersey with a couple of retailers in Boulder. I also searched parachute + SBTC and came across Strykers Brigade Combat Team. Oh well. Must be a camper.

[Rupert]

The arcticles that were used for cord and tape and who knows what else seem to be camping items.

Well, with a further bit of cyber-sleuthing, I found that JonBenet won a Camper of the Year Award at McSauba in Charlevoix. I also noticed that McSauba has a ski hill. Wasn't there a man at a garage station in Charlevoix about October 1996 who said he had some business to settle with John and was going to go "ice-skating in the mountains" of Boulder? Wasn't there also someone who slept in JonBenet's bed in Charlevoix in November 1996 and left his cowboy boots and suitcase? Was he a camper from McSauba that got some interest in JonBenet?

[Rupert]

From the: National Examiner 5/3/2004

"PATSY RAMSEY: KILLER TARGETED JONBENET BECAUSE SHE WAS A BEAUTY QUEEN.- SHE TELLS PALS

Bravely battling yet another bout with cancer, Patsy Ramsey will go to her grave filled with regrets that she ever introduced her adorable daughter JonBenet into the world of children's beauty pageants, say pals.

"I'm sorry , so sorry," Patsy sobbed at one moving family meeting, say sources.

Patsy, 47, and her 60 year old husband John now tell friends that they believe an evil pervert hunted down the sweet 6 year old.

They say that the killer broke into their Boulder, Colorado, home Christmas Day 1996, pulled their precious daughter from her bed and carried her to the basement to beat and strangle her after spotting her in one of her pageant performances.

Ironically, as a new scandal over kiddie beauty show hits the headlines, the Ramseys say they may even have discovered the very moment when JonBenet was targeted.

It was December 6, 1996, during the Parade of Lights in Boulder.

JonBenet was sitting up high on the back seat of a Christmas-red open BMW convertible with two other pageant contestants, waving to the crowd while the song Jingle Bell Rock was played from the car.

A plastic sign on the side of the convertible identified her by name and revealed that she was a child beauty queen. Family friend Pam Archuleta held JonBenet's ankle to keep her from falling.

As they went past one of the town's leading banks, a strange man walked from the crowd toward the BMW. Archuleta says he looked "creepy" and had "a face full of anger and hatred" that she will never forget. She had the impression that the man had seen JonBenet before and recognized her.

Well-dressed in a tweed jacket and jeans, the man was in his 40's, tall and thin with graying hair. He stared at JonBenet and walked to within two feet of the car.

For Archuleta, the staring man's behavior marred what until then had seemed an innocent Christmas event that could have taken place in any town in America."

Could the man in the tweed be tall because of his boots? Might he have come from Charlevoix? Was he stalking her and did he recognize her from Camp McSauba? Why was he angry?

[thewhitewitch1]

From the: National Examiner 5/3/2004

"PATSY RAMSEY: KILLER TARGETED JONBENET BECAUSE SHE WAS A BEAUTY QUEEN.- SHE TELLS PALS

Bravely battling yet another bout with cancer, Patsy Ramsey will go to her grave filled with regrets that she ever introduced her adorable daughter JonBenet into the world of children's beauty pageants, say pals.

"I'm sorry , so sorry," Patsy sobbed at one moving family meeting, say sources.

Patsy, 47, and her 60 year old husband John now tell friends that they believe an evil pervert hunted down the sweet 6 year old.

They say that the killer broke into their Boulder, Colorado, home Christmas Day 1996, pulled their precious daughter from her bed and carried her to the basement to beat and strangle her after spotting her in one of her pageant performances.

Ironically, as a new scandal over kiddie beauty show hits the headlines, the Ramseys say they may even have discovered the very moment when JonBenet was targeted.

It was December 6, 1996, during the Parade of Lights in Boulder.

JonBenet was sitting up high on the back seat of a Christmas-red open BMW convertible with two other pageant contestants, waving to the crowd while the song Jingle Bell Rock was played from the car.

A plastic sign on the side of the convertible identified her by name and revealed that she was a child beauty queen. Family friend Pam Archuleta held JonBenet's ankle to keep her from falling.

As they went past one of the town's leading banks, a strange man walked from the crowd toward the BMW. Archuleta says he looked "creepy" and had "a face full of anger and hatred" that she will never forget. She had the impression that the man had seen JonBenet before and recognized her.

Well-dressed in a tweed jacket and jeans, the man was in his 40's, tall and thin with graying hair. He stared at JonBenet and walked to within two feet of the car.

For Archuleta, the staring man's behavior marred what until then had seemed an innocent Christmas event that could have taken place in any town in America."

Could the man in the tweed be tall because of his boots? Might he have come from Charlevoix? Was he stalking her and did he recognize her from Camp McSauba? Why was he angry?

Why didn't Pam Archuleta tell the police about this man in 1996? You are taking stock in a story from the NE? Come on, now. IMO

[Rupert]

Why didn't Pam Archuleta tell the police about this man in 1996? You are taking stock in a story from the NE? Come on, now. IMO

Why would Pam Archuleta lie about such a thing - don't tell me money? Come on now indeed - this was murder.

Many RDI's have referred to the tabs too. There might be some grain of truth here.

[Louisadelmar]

Actually we don't know that she didn't tell BPD in 1996/7. Since it was IDI related it could have gotten short shrift and we know BPD wasn't pushing IDI theories. I don't see anything to suggest she was directly talking to the NE. All of that could have come from a leaked report.

[thewhitewitch1]

Actually we don't know that she didn't tell BPD in 1996/7. Since it was IDI related it could have gotten short shrift and we know BPD wasn't pushing IDI theories. I don't see anything to suggest she was directly talking to the NE. All of that could have come from a leaked report.

I don't believe for one minute that it got the "short shrift". The Ramseys had their own investigators, you know. I think in hindsight people "remember" all kinds of things with a "paranoid" view when it comes to murder. Maybe Pam Archuleta actually said or recalled such a thing or maybe she didn't. Maybe it was just a "paranoid" memory. How can someone read "hatred" and "anger" in someone's face? Maybe the guy was mad at his wife or kid or something.
How could a stranger in a crowd have the knowledge of the family (such as the familiarity in the RN) or know the layout of the Ramsey home or know of their habits (that Patsy used the spiral staircase each morning)?
I get tired of hearing that the BPD never really investigated anyone else because that is simply NOT true. IMO

[Louisadelmar]

But your question was:

"Why didn't Pam Archuleta tell the police about this man in 1996? "

I'm saying we don't know that she didn't.

[Rupert]

How could a stranger in a crowd have the knowledge of the family (such as the familiarity in the RN) or know the layout of the Ramsey home or know of their habits (that Patsy used the spiral staircase each morning)?

I am not sure about the spiral staircase thing. Perhaps an intruder who cased the joint could see it was simply a stair that comes down from the master bedroom and thus plant the note there. No big deal about that.

However, I reflected on the heart drawn business magazine and heart in the hand and wondered how a stranger from Charlevoix would know that too. Perhaps it shows us yet again that the hints and clues were all just part of a hapless throw in of things that the R's could put together that tiresome night to cover up. Or, perhaps it might tell us something about the perp(s). Maybe there was a perp that traversed from Charlevoix to Boulder more than once.

Happy New Year!

[Limaes]

I get tired of hearing that the BPD never really investigated anyone else because that is simply NOT true. IMO

I think Steve Thomas summed it up pretty well in his 1997 interview with JR:

ST: Well, John, I’ll tell you this. I’ve sat in a North Carolina jail cell with a suspected child serial killer, hoping that I could put him in Boulder on December 26. So there’s two sides to that, and it doesn’t sell papers when I’m chasing when it’s not John Ramsey.

[RivLaw]

I found that the cord is Stansport N-50 from a more updated:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The+Cords

It is known as Coglan's cord as well and perhaps that is why it was thought of as parachute cord by Trip Demuth. As noted it was sold at athe time in McGuckins and Boulder Army Store. Interestingly, I also searched for Stansport product and found Ramsey Outdoors based in New Jersey with a couple of retailers in Boulder. I also searched parachute + SBTC and came across Strykers Brigade Combat Team. Oh well. Must be a camper.

IMHO: OK, I am going to put this out here again for consideration. What Ramsey acquaintance would regularly use cord and tape around the R's house for his job (and by his own admission did not have an alibi after 10:30 pm and knew about the broken window and helped put up the outdoor Christmas decorations and had to get in the basement to plug the cord in?) Answer the gardener. Was the gardeners truck or apartment ever searched for cord or tape of the kind found at the crime? Was he ever asked about such cord or tape?
--RivLaw

[thewhitewitch1]

IMHO: OK, I am going to put this out here again for consideration. What Ramsey acquaintance would regularly use cord and tape around the R's house for his job (and by his own admission did not have an alibi after 10:30 pm and knew about the broken window and helped put up the outdoor Christmas decorations and had to get in the basement to plug the cord in?) Answer the gardener. Was the gardeners truck or apartment ever searched for cord or tape of the kind found at the crime? Was he ever asked about such cord or tape?
--RivLaw

Do we know for a fact that the "gardener" put up the outside decorations? How and why would the "gardener" know about the broken window? For what reason would a "gardener" have a need for tape and cord? I don't know of any gardeners who's job it is to put up Christmas decorations; that's why I'm asking you if it's a fact that their gardener did this. IMO

[Rupert]

Apparenly from Singular's book "Presumed Guilty", page 115, Randy Simons Photographer made a kite with what appeared to look like the same cord. The kite was made for a photo set of Pam Griffin's daughter.

I found this at:
http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID79/26.html

[Rupert]

I think I might have found something. Let's see:

A. If an intruder was going to go to the effort of constructing a garrot, complete with a lawnmower pull handle, then the cord would have been pulled around the neck and through a slip, so the more you pulled on the handle, the tighter the cord around the neck. It would loosen when you don't pull.

B. If you were going to stage a garroting, then you wouldn't want to stick around and have to keep pulling on the handle, so you would create the handle but probably tie the cord around the neck with a firm knot that would not slip.

So what does the evidence say? The cord appeared tightly constricted around the neck, so it must have been cinched tight as in a knot. It did not loosen. I am sorry to think that it was just a staged garrot. What do you think?

Actually, I might have already been pointed this out on another forum, perhaps by SD?

[shill]

B. If you were going to stage a garroting, then you wouldn't want to stick around and have to keep pulling on the handle, so you would create the handle but probably tie the cord around the neck with a firm knot that would not slip.

So what does the evidence say?

There are different kinds of slip knots that work differently with the kinds of cord they are tied with.

It is on the record that the garrote around JonBenet's neck was a slip knot.

JonBenet was dead from strangulation, why would you have to have the garrote appear to have strangled her when there is proof that it did in an autopsy?

Do you think you would have lived with that garrote embedded in your neck and still tight around your throat? I don't think you would, so imo it's certainly not staging.

The garrote was a known cause of death for JonBenet, making it a murder weapon, not a stage prop.

[rashomon]

There are different kinds of slip knots that work differently with the kinds of cord they are tied with.

It is on the record that the garrote around JonBenet's neck was a slip knot.

JonBenet was dead from strangulation, why would you have to have the garrote appear to have strangled her when there is proof that it did in an autopsy?

Do you think you would have lived with that garrote embedded in your neck and still tight around your throat? I don't think you would, so imo it's certainly not staging.

The garrote was a known cause of death for JonBenet, making it a murder weapon, not a stage prop.

Those multiple cord wrappings around the stick weren't necessary for strangling the victim. The tied knot around the neck did that.
Which imo indicates the cord wrapped around the handle was used for mere staging purposes.

[shill]:
It is on the record that the garrote around JonBenet's neck was a slip knot.

No, it is not the record. Dr. Meyer merely spoke of a 'double knot', giving no info as to what kind of knot it was,

[Rupert]:
A. If an intruder was going to go to the effort of constructing a garrot, complete with a lawnmower pull handle, then the cord would have been pulled around the neck and through a slip, so the more you pulled on the handle, the tighter the cord around the neck. It would loosen when you don't pull.

B. If you were going to stage a garroting, then you wouldn't want to stick around and have to keep pulling on the handle, so you would create the handle but probably tie the cord around the neck with a firm knot that would not slip.

So what does the evidence say? The cord appeared tightly constricted around the neck, so it must have been cinched tight as in a knot. It did not loosen. I am sorry to think that it was just a staged garrot. What do you think?

I think you got that right. This knot was tied around the neck first. I think the stager of the scene then took the remaining piece of cord and wrapped it around the handle to create a bizarre scene.
The long 17-inch piece of cord between the neck and the stick is also a giveaway that the 'garrote' was a mere stage prop. For the longer the cord, the less pulling force you get, and multiple wrappings around the handle diminish pulling force also. Every layperson can easily try out experiments on that.

[Rupert]

Those multiple cord wrappings around the stick weren't necessary for strangling the victim. The tied knot around the neck did that.
Which imo indicates the cord wrapped around the handle was used for mere staging purposes.

No, it is not the record. Dr. Meyer merely spoke of a 'double knot', giving no info as to what kind of knot it was,

I think you got that right. This knot was tied around the neck first. I think the stager of the scene then took the remaining piece of cord and wrapped it around the handle to create a bizarre scene.
The long 17-inch piece of cord between the neck and the stick is also a giveaway that the 'garrote' was a mere stage prop. For the longer the cord, the less pulling force you get, and multiple wrappings around the handle diminish pulling force also. Every layperson can easily try out experiments on that.

Well, maybe I got the "nonslip knot" right, but looking closer now, I think Shill is correct. Although gruesome, the real crime scene are the injuries around her neck and the autopsy photo shows some weird things. I for one have not paid as much close attention to it as it deserves.

From the autopsy:
"Wrapped around the neck with a double knot in the midline of the posterior neck is a length of white cord similar to that described as being tied around the right wrist."

"This ligature cord is cut on the right side of the neck and removed. A single black ink mark is placed on the left side of the cut and a double black ink mark on the right side of the cut. The posterior knot is left intact. extending from the knot on the posterior aspect of the neck are two tails of the knot, one measuring 4 inches in length and having a frayed end, and the other measuring 17 inches in length with the end tied in multiple loops around a length of a round tan-brown wooden stick with measures 4.5 inches in length."

It is a double knot, no question. However, I think the 17" appears to be right for someone bending over JonBenet in the act of garroting.

In the photo we can clearly see that the finished (melted) end of the nylon cord is on the garrot handle. This tells me that the making of the garrot first started with the paint brush. So, why is there JonBenet's hair mixed in and entwined with the cord around the paintbrush? A stager would not have to be bending over close to JonBenet while starting to make the garrot. A murderer would however want to stay close and restrain JonBenet while making the garrot. The cord was wrapped around JonBenet's neck and her hair again was entwined in the "double knot". Obviously, the perp then cut off the cord, leaving 4" length and a frayed end. The cord was probably cut by the swiss army knife found nearby and the garrot construction was done in the windowless room. Finally, both ends of the cord that tied her wrists were frayed and thus done last. The rest of the cord left with the perp.

The multiple wrappings around the neck at first suggested to me that no doubt the cord was tightened one time and then later tightened again. However, it might have been more the action of pulling the garrot up and tightening.

The large rupture is below the cord (heart pressure side) which indicates to me that it happened with a much fiercer pull. The first wrapping seems to indicate that it wasn't as fierce and the abrasians look like it slid up into the final cord position. The abrasians suggest to me that there was a gradual (but violent) shift from the first lower wrapping to the final wrapping and location of the cord. This suggests to me that it was not an act of staging (wrap once and come back later to try again), but a struggle. Two wrappings for staging would not be necessary and abhorrent to a loving parent.

What the crescent marks are due to I don't know for sure. Were they ever mentioned in the autopsy report or subsequently? If they were from JonBenet's fingernails, then they appear at first glance upside down. Could that mean the stager was adjusting the cord and the crescent marks are due to his/her fingernails? However, JonBenet might have been struggling to pull the cord off with her left hand. A lateral pull by her left hand would also explain why the crescent marks appear elongated and thus larger than the arcs of fingernails. Lou Smit stated that her own DNA was found under her fingernails and thus she indeed did try to pull at the cord. Note, if JonBenet was pulling at he cord with her left hand, then her right arm must have been restrained. Might that tell us something? If the crescent marks are indeed due to JonBenet struggling, then no doubt it was not staging.


So, in conclusion: the garrot was made while restraining JonBenet and then tightened fiercely. Her left arm was not restrained and she struggled scratching her neck. Unfortunately the perp prevailed and her heart stopped. Then the perp hit her over the head with little blood loss. From just the facts at the epicentre of the whole JonBenet mystery, it appears evident to me that this was premeditated killing.

[rashomon]

[Rupert]:

In the photo we can clearly see that the finished (melted) end of the nylon cord is on the garrot handle. This tells me that the making of the garrot first started with the paint brush.

Do you mean the cylindrical shaped piece in the upper right hand corner of the cord wraps wich seems to stick out?
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote2.jpg

But this doesn't mean the garrot handle was fashioned first.
Imagine the stager holding a piece of nylon cord in her hand with one finished (melted) end still intact. For example, it could simply have been some leftover cord which she thought suitable for a ligature.
So the stager first cuts off a piece for the wrist ligatures. After that, she proceeds with the remaining cord, tying the knot around the neck and then wrapping the rest of the cord around the wooden stick, the melted end piece ending up in the wrappings.

So, why is there JonBenet's hair mixed in and entwined with the cord around the paintbrush? A stager would not have to be bending over close to JonBenet while starting to make the garrot.

The stager had to be close to the victim when tying the neck knot, for otherwise it could not have been done. The tied knot requires a lot of fingerwork and one can only get it tight when the fingers remain close to the neck area. While the stager was doing this, JonBenet's hair got entwined in the knot. I think she, remaining close to the prone victim, then took the wooden stick, wrapped the remainder of the cord around it, and again JonBenet's hair got enwined. In short, this 'garrote' was constructed on the victim which in all probability was lying face-down on the floor, in a deep coma nearing death.

The large rupture is below the cord (heart pressure side) which indicates to me that it happened with a much fiercer pull. The first wrapping seems to indicate that it wasn't as fierce and the abrasians look like it slid up into the final cord position. The abrasians suggest to me that there was a gradual (but violent) shift from the first lower wrapping to the final wrapping and location of the cord. This suggests to me that it was not an act of staging (wrap once and come back later to try again), but a struggle. Two wrappings for staging would not be necessary and abhorrent to a loving parent.

There are no indications whatsoever that JonBenet struggled against an attacker for she had no defensive wounds. Those alleged crescent-shaped marks which Smit "saw" are mentioned nowhere in the autposy report. Even if you look at the photos with a magnifying glass, you won't find anything there looking like crescent-shaped marks. It seems that once again, Smit "saw" what he wanted to see.
I believe the lower abrasion on Jonbenet's neck came from fumbling with the cord. I think after Patsy tied the knot, she continued with the wrappings around the garrote handle, pushing the ligature up the neck in the process.

So, in conclusion: the garrot was made while restraining JonBenet and then tightened fiercely. Her left arm was not restrained and she struggled scratching her neck. Unfortunately the perp prevailed and her heart stopped. Then the perp hit her over the head with little blood loss. From just the facts at the epicentre of the whole JonBenet mystery, it appears evident to me that this was premeditated killing.

Imo the evidence indicates that the so-called 'garrote' was constructed on a prone and unresisting victim which was in a deep coma nearing death.

[Rupert]

[Rupert]:

Do you mean the cylindrical shaped piece in the upper right hand corner of the cord wraps wich seems to stick out?
http://www.acandyrose.com/garrote2.jpg

But this doesn't mean the garrot handle was fashioned first.
Imagine the stager holding a piece of nylon cord in her hand with one finished (melted) end still intact. For example, it could simply have been some leftover cord which she thought suitable for a ligature.
So the stager first cuts off a piece for the wrist ligatures. After that, she proceeds with the remaining cord, tying the knot around the neck and then wrapping the rest of the cord around the wooden stick, the melted end piece ending up in the wrappings.


The stager had to be close to the victim when tying the neck knot, for otherwise it could not have been done. The tied knot requires a lot of fingerwork and one can only get it tight when the fingers remain close to the neck area. While the stager was doing this, JonBenet's hair got entwined in the knot. I think she, remaining close to the prone victim, then took the wooden stick, wrapped the remainder of the cord around it, and again JonBenet's hair got enwined. In short, this 'garrote' was constructed on the victim which in all probability was lying face-down on the floor, in a deep coma nearing death.

There are no indications whatsoever that JonBenet struggled against an attacker for she had no defensive wounds. Those alleged crescent-shaped marks which Smit "saw" are mentioned nowhere in the autposy report. Even if you look at the photos with a magnifying glass, you won't find anything there looking like crescent-shaped marks. It seems that once again, Smit "saw" what he wanted to see.
I believe the lower abrasion on Jonbenet's neck came from fumbling with the cord. I think after Patsy tied the knot, she continued with the wrappings around the garrote handle, pushing the ligature up the neck in the process.


Imo the evidence indicates that the so-called 'garrote' was constructed on a prone and unresisting victim which was in a deep coma nearing death.

Yes that cylindrical thing. Your staging scenario is much less likely to me. Who carries around a frayed end nylon cord? Where is the rest of the cord? I believe it was fresh new cord with the melted end right from the package.

Are you trying to see what you want to see? I think you should be more careful before accusing a professional detective like Lou Smit of committing the same biased interpretation.

I think the perp first put JonBenet in the windowless room (he had already known about it and checked it out). JonBenet was still in unconcious shock from the last stun gunning. The perp then got the paint brush and broke off the brush end, leaving it in the tote. The perp went back into the windowless room and straddled JonBenet and broke the paint brush again. JonBenet was coming to. The perp put his weight on JonBenet, pulled out the cord package from his pocket plus the swiss army knife. The perp then started to construct the garrot handle while leaning on JonBenet. The perp's hands and arms were holding down her head while he fumbled to make the garrot handle and thus her hair got entwined. Then the perp wrapped the cord around her head and tied the knot, then started pulling.

That is all consistent and the last cut frayed ends of the ligature to the arms is consistent with the "Ransom" tape over the mouth and the theatrical, psychotic, sadistic pedophile world of the perp. There are such bad people out there. JonBenet was unfortunately highly exposed through her pageants and that's why Patsy said they didn't mean for this to happen.

[shill]

Those multiple cord wrappings around the stick weren't necessary for strangling the victim. The tied knot around the neck did that.
Which imo indicates the cord wrapped around the handle was used for mere staging purposes.

That's a simplistic point of view. The wrappings around the handle were to adjust the lenght of the cord atached to a paintbrush handle before the tip was broken off of it imo.

No, it is not the record. Dr. Meyer merely spoke of a 'double knot', giving no info as to what kind of knot it was,

Smit can't conceive of a parent who just killed a child constructing such an elaborate sexual device on the spot. "Try it," he said. "I can't make one. Handle on one end, slipknot on the other end." The crime could have been staged simply by pulling cord around JonBenet's neck. "Why make this device? Why would you have to go through all of the problems to do it?"

VI think you got that right. This knot was tied around the neck first. I think the stager of the scene then took the remaining piece of cord and wrapped it around the handle to create a bizarre scene.

Create a bizarre scene? Is there a "not bizarre" version of the handle that is normally created when children are strangled with such device?
So the stager knew that multiple wraps would be bizarre because why?

The long 17-inch piece of cord between the neck and the stick is also a giveaway that the 'garrote' was a mere stage prop. For the longer the cord, the less pulling force you get, and multiple wrappings around the handle diminish pulling force also. Every layperson can easily try out experiments on that.

It was parachute cord. Not exactly a stretchy cord, therefore it would not diminish the pulling force.

You can live in denial all your life rashomon but others want to know the truth, the facts of physics prove you to be absolutely incorrect about your opinions on this subject.
And Delmer England is no physics expert or knot expert like you would like to believe. imo

[shill]

...The tied knot requires a lot of fingerwork and one can only get it tight when the fingers remain close to the neck area. While the stager was doing this, JonBenet's hair got entwined in the knot. I think she, remaining close to the prone victim, then took the wooden stick, wrapped the remainder of the cord around it, and again JonBenet's hair got enwined. In short, this 'garrote' was constructed on the victim which in all probability was lying face-down on the floor, in a deep coma nearing death.

If JonBenet was laying face down how does the hair get entwined?
Gravity would have the hair going towards the floor while your explanation has the garrote maker tying the knot above her back, which would not account for the hair getting into the knot.
Now if JonBenet was sitting up and the knot was tied in front or back, then hair may dangle into the knot and get tied in.

[rashomon]

You will see waht you want to see
Yes that cylindrical thing. Your staging scenario is much less likely to me. Who carries around a frayed end nylon cord? Where is the rest of the cord? I believe it was fresh new cord with the melted end right from the package.

Are you trying to see what you want to see? I think you should be more careful before accusing a professional detective like Lou Smit of committing the same biased interpretation.

I think the perp first put JonBenet in the windowless room (he had already known about it and checked it out). JonBenet was still in unconcious shock from the last stun gunning. The perp then got the paint brush and broke off the brush end, leaving it in the tote. The perp went back into the windowless room and straddled JonBenet and broke the paint brush again. JonBenet was coming to. The perp put his weight on JonBenet, pulled out the cord package from his pocket plus the swiss army knife. The perp then started to construct the garrot handle while leaning on JonBenet. The perp's hands and arms were holding down her head while he fumbled to make the garrot handle and thus her hair got entwined. Then the perp wrapped the cord around her head and tied the knot, then started pulling.

That is all consistent and the last cut frayed ends of the ligature to the arms is consistent with the "Ransom" tape over the mouth and the theatrical, psychotic, sadistic pedophile world of the perp. There are such bad people out there. JonBenet was unfortunately highly exposed through her pageants and that's why Patsy said they didn't mean for this to happen.

Yes that cylindrical thing. Your staging scenario is much less likely to me. Who carries around a frayed end nylon cord? Where is the rest of the cord? I believe it was fresh new cord with the melted end right from the package.

I have quite a few leftover pieces of cord in my household. No need to "carry them around". They are just kept in some boxes or drawers in case we should need them. Also, the Ramseys seem to have been something like 'pack rats'. who never threw anything out. Just look at the tons of stuff they had in their basement.

Are you trying to see what you want to see?

Seeing is not enough. I have tied the knot many times, and have also done experiments myself to verify or falsify what D. England said about the multiple cord wrappings around the handle diminishing pulling force, with the 17- inch space of cord being an additional counterproductive element. I have found this to be true. I have also wrapped cord around the handle first and then tried to get that double slip knot to lock by yanking at the handle. It did not work at all. You can easily try this out yourself.

This tells me that the cord around the stick was staged for mere bizarre décor. It is totally unfunctional and therefore redundant for strangling imo.

I think you should be more careful before accusing a professional detective like Lou Smit of committing the same biased interpretation.

Oh, Louie couldn't get it to work either. Let's look at what he said:

Smit can't conceive of a parent who just killed a child constructing such an elaborate sexual device on the spot. "Try it," he said. "I can't make one. Handle on one end, slipknot on the other end." The crime could have been staged simply by pulling cord around JonBenet's neck. "Why make this device? Why would you have to go through all of the problems to do it?"

Smit couldn't make one because it can't be done. Bur not because was elaborate and complicated (the knots are very simple knots, and a kindergartner can wrap cord around a stick). He couldn't do it because you can't really get a knot to lock with that kind of device. You don't need the wooden stick for that at at all.
Therefore Smit got it right when reflecting that this stick was not needed to strangle the victim.
So why was the stick there? If it didn't work, what was to be achieved by constructing it? Smit theorized that the crime could have been staged simply by pulling cord around the neck. But I think the stager of the scene had the feeling it was not enough to stage it like that, since it does happen that children get strangled by their parents. What does she do? She fashions
the 'garrote' so that everyone should think "No parent would strangle their children that way. A perverted sexual predator must have done this."

I think the perp first put JonBenet in the windowless room (he had already known about it and checked it out). JonBenet was still in unconcious shock from the last stun gunning. The perp then got the paint brush and broke off the brush end, leaving it in the tote. The perp went back into the windowless room and straddled JonBenet and broke the paint brush again. JonBenet was coming to. The perp put his weight on JonBenet, pulled out the cord package from his pocket plus the swiss army knife. The perp then started to construct the garrot handle while leaning on JonBenet.]The perp's hands and arms were holding down her head while he fumbled to make the garrot handle and thus her hair got entwined. Then the perp wrapped the cord around her head and tied the knot, then started pulling.

This is putting the cart before the horse imo. Why would the perp go trough the trouble of wrapping cord around the handle first, then tie the knot with his fingers and then use the handle again to pull. No handle at all is need to pull this knot tight, let alone a handle which was constructed that unfunctional way.

The paintbrush btw was not broken in the windowless room but in the room where the paint tote was kept, for wooden splinters were found on the floor.

Jmpo, but if a tiny six-year-od had been straddled by a grown-up male perp, her body would have shown contusions and inner injuries from the perp's body weight. I believe Patsy knelt next to JonBenet as she was staging the garrote scene. The forensic evidence implicates her, for fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tote, in the wrappings of the garrote handle, on the duct tape and on the balnket which covered the victim's body.

That is all consistent and the last cut frayed ends of the ligature to the arms is consistent with the "Ransom" tape over the mouth and the theatrical, psychotic, sadistic pedophile world of the perp. There are such bad people out there. JonBenet was unfortunately highly exposed through her pageants and that's why Patsy said they didn't mean for this to happen.

Imo the wrist ligatures were tied first, for had they been tied after the neck ligature, the stager would have transferred into wrist ties some of JonBenet's hairs which still stuck to her hands from the prior fumbling with the garrote.
I believe Patsy put JoBenet face-down on the floor, put her arms over her head, clumsily tied some cord around the wrists and then proceeded with the neck ligature, the space between the neck and shoulder providing enough room for her to run the cord under the neck and back.

Possible time line: infliction of the genital wound - wrist ligature - neck ligature - victim is carried to the windowless room - duct tape is put on the mouth - blanket is put over her.
I believe one wrist ligature came off as JonBenet was carried to the windowless room without the stager becoming aware that it had come off.

jmo

[Louisadelmar]

[...]
Jmpo, but if a tiny six-year-od had been straddled by a grown-up male perp, her body would have shown contusions and inner injuries from the perp's body weight. I believe Patsy knelt next to JonBenet as she was staging the garrote scene. The forensic evidence implicates her, for fibers from her jacket were found in the paint tote, in the wrappings of the garrote handle, on the duct tape and on the balnket which covered the victim's body.


Imo the wrist ligatures were tied first, for had they been tied after the neck ligature, the stager would have transferred into wrist ties some of JonBenet's hairs which still stuck to her hands from the prior fumbling with the garrote.
I believe Patsy put JoBenet face-down on the floor, put her arms over her head, clumsily tied some cord around the wrists and then proceeded with the neck ligature, the space between the neck and shoulder providing enough room for her to run the cord under the neck and back.
[...]

jmo

It would only show contusions etc if he sat on her. He could straddle her without doing that.

Why would Patsy (or anyone) put her arms over her head and then tie the neck ligature? Seems like the arms would get in the way.

[rashomon]

It would only show contusions etc if he sat on her. He could straddle her without doing that.

You're right of course, Louisa. I stand corrected. So whoever put the cord around her neck could have done so while straddling the victim without producing any injuries.

Why would Patsy (or anyone) put her arms over her head and then tie the neck ligature? Seems like the arms would get in the way.

I think the space between shoulder and neck would provide enough room to run the cord under the neck and back.

Question back: why would an intruder wait until the victim is dead from strangulation until he bound her wrists? From an IDI scenario it is logical to assume that the wrist ties came first.

jmo

[rashomon]

That's a simplistic point of view. The wrappings around the handle were to adjust the lenght of the cord atached to a paintbrush handle before the tip was broken off of it imo.

But that handle was not needed for anything! It was not needed to create the knot, for this knot needs fingerwork. And when you want to get the knot tight, all you need is pull a little with your hands and the soft flat nylon cord will make the knot lock. Why bother to wrap remaining cord around a stick when all you need is pulling with your hands? Why make it complicated and unfunctional when you can get it simple and functional?

Smit can't conceive of a parent who just killed a child constructing such an elaborate sexual device on the spot. "Try it," he said. "I can't make one. Handle on one end, slipknot on the other end." The crime could have been staged simply by pulling cord around JonBenet's neck. "Why make this device? Why would you have to go through all of the problems to do it?"

See, shill? Louie couldn't make it work either.
Smit couldn't make one because it can't be done. But not because was elaborate and complicated (the knots are very simple knots, and a kindergartner can wrap cord around a stick). He couldn't do it because you can't really get a knot to lock with that kind of device. You don't need the wooden stick for that at all.
Therefore Smit got it right when reflecting that this stick was not needed to strangle the victim.
So why was the stick there? If it didn't work, what was to be achieved by constructing it? Smit theorized that the crime could have been staged simply by pulling cord around the neck. But I think the stager of the scene had the feeling it was not enough to stage it like that, since it does happen that children get strangled by their parents. So what does she do? She fashions
the 'garrote' so that everyone should think "No parent would strangle their children that way. A perverted sexual predator must have done this."

Create a bizarre scene? Is there a "not bizarre" version of the handle that is normally created when children are strangled with such device?
So the stager knew that multiple wraps would be bizarre because why?

No, there is no "not bizarre" version of the handle. The broken stick itself is the bizarre element which imo was calculatedly used by the stager to create a scene which was to look even more cruel than a strangulation scene alone.
The goal was to create the association "tortured and killed".

You can live in denial all your life rashomon but others want to know the truth, the facts of physics prove you to be absolutely incorrect about your opinions on this subject.

You don't have to be a physics major to try out yourself that what was suggested with the 'garrrote scene' just doesn't work with that kind of knot and with that kind handle. "Elaborate sexual device", Smit said. He obviously had some 'erotic asphyxiation' scenario in mind where the cord was alterantely tightened and loosened. But this doesn't work with a fixed locked knot around the neck.

Imo it is IDIs like you who keep shutting their eyes to the incrimnating evidence agaist the Ramseys (fibers, handwriting, ransom note pad, unfunctional ligatures which point to staging) which is why I think we should leave it to the viewers of this board to decide who is denial here.

jmo

[Rupert]

I will restate as simple as possible my theory:

Perp straddled her to restrain her. JonBenet is right side face down. If she wasn't stun gunned, then she might have got those marks from something while being pressed and struggling. There were other evidence of bruises and thus struggle.

Perp's arm was across her head to restrain her while he tied the garrot stick. The garrot stick and and cord were thus close to her hair and in his excitement he got the hair entwined while making that knot. He started with that first because it had the finished (melted) end.

Then he wrapped the cord around her neck and cut it, leaving the frayed end.

The fact that the hair is entwined in the garrot stick and cord suggests to me very clearly that this was made during a struggle. Otherwise it would have had no hair in it. This was the perp's mistake.

Notice the knots tied around her hands are hand face up. The perp had turned her over and tied the knots after, again leaving frayed ends. That was theatrical. Then alas the tape was applied in the same Barbie Doll fantasy.

I recall reading somewhere that JonBenet brought her Barbie Dolls to the All Star Pageants to play with the other girls behind the curtain. And apparently that is where she supposedly won the Santa Bear.

[thewhitewitch1]

I will restate as simple as possible my theory:

Perp straddled her to restrain her. JonBenet is right side face down. If she wasn't stun gunned, then she might have got those marks from something while being pressed and struggling. There were other evidence of bruises and thus struggle.

Perp's arm was across her head to restrain her while he tied the garrot stick. The garrot stick and and cord were thus close to her hair and in his excitement he got the hair entwined while making that knot. He started with that first because it had the finished (melted) end.

Then he wrapped the cord around her neck and cut it, leaving the frayed end.

The fact that the hair is entwined in the garrot stick and cord suggests to me very clearly that this was made during a struggle. Otherwise it would have had no hair in it. This was the perp's mistake.

Notice the knots tied around her hands are hand face up. The perp had turned her over and tied the knots after, again leaving frayed ends. That was theatrical. Then alas the tape was applied in the same Barbie Doll fantasy.

I recall reading somewhere that JonBenet brought her Barbie Dolls to the All Star Pageants to play with the other girls behind the curtain. And apparently that is where she supposedly won the Santa Bear.

Where does the alleged stun gun come into play here? If one had been used, there would not have been a "struggle".
Any bruising on JB was minimal. She had a few scratches on her leg, the odd marks and that's about the extent of it. IMO

[SuperDave]

If JonBenet was laying face down how does the hair get entwined?
Gravity would have the hair going towards the floor while your explanation has the garrote maker tying the knot above her back, which would not account for the hair getting into the knot.
Now if JonBenet was sitting up and the knot was tied in front or back, then hair may dangle into the knot and get tied in.

That's absurd. You're telling me that a long-haired kid's hair wouldn't rest on the back of the neck if she's lying face down? Rot, I say.

[rashomon]

[SuperDave]:
That's absurd. You're telling me that a long-haired kid's hair wouldn't rest on the back of the neck if she's lying face down? Rot, I say.

Shill seems to have problems visualizing such an obvious fact.

It was parachute cord. Not exactly a stretchy cord, therefore it would not diminish the pulling force.That's absurd. You're telling me that a long-haired kid's hair wouldn't rest on the back of the neck if she's lying face down? Rot, I say.

No, it was not parachute cord. Go to #N50 in this link. This is the brand of cord which was used for the ligatures:

http://www.stansport.com/pdf.single....s.040_2005.pdf

[Rupert]

Notice the knots tied around her hands are hand face up. The perp had turned her over and tied the knots after, again leaving frayed ends. That was theatrical. Then alas the tape was applied in the same Barbie Doll fantasy.

I recall reading somewhere that JonBenet brought her Barbie Dolls to the All Star Pageants to play with the other girls behind the curtain. And apparently that is where she supposedly won the Santa Bear.

Come to think of it also:
We know that a Barbie Doll was later found on the lawn tied up the same way. We also know that her Barbie nightgown was placed next to her.

Patsy thought that Santa Bear was strange. Guess what: There was a Barbie doll placed right next to the Santa Bear!

[nuisanceposter]

LOL! Shill seems to have problems visualizing such an obvious fact.

I have very long hair, even longer than JonBenet's hair was, and I can tell you if I laid down face down, it would cover my back and neck like a blanket. There's too much of it to be attracted to the ground by gravity like a magnet just because I'm face down. Even if you sat and pushed the hair to the sides, it would still be around my neck, especially where it comes out of the lower back of the scalp over the nape. Sometimes those hairs aren't as long as the hairs from higher on the scalp, because they got broken when you style your hair with ponytail holders and barrettes. That nape area is the one spot I always have to double check when I make braids and buns because it frequently defies the brush and wisps wherever it wants to go, or just doesn't get caught up in the brush as well as the rest of my hair. IMO.

[Zoey]

Shill seems to have problems visualizing such an obvious fact.
No, it was not parachute cord. Go to #N50 in this link. This is the brand of cord which was used for the ligatures:

http://www.stansport.com/pdf.single....s.040_2005.pdf

Since you were able to come up with that link Rash, would you be so kind as to post the link where it was positively identified by someone other than ST as that exact brand of rope? TIA.

[Rupert]

Since you were able to come up with that link Rash, would you be so kind as to post the link where it was positively identified by someone other than ST as that exact brand of rope? TIA.

Hi Zoey,
I think for sure the same brand was found at the Boulder Army Store but there was no comment by the McGuckins:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The+Cords

It seems the FFJ is down for me right know or I could find out more.

What is more interesting to me is what whynut said about Trip DeMuth and the tape and that it was not the same production run as on the paintings:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Duct+Tape+on+Mouth

Does that mean it was the same brand of tape on the paintings?

[Zoey]

Hi Zoey,
I think for sure the same brand was found at the Boulder Army Store but there was no comment by the McGuckins:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The+Cords

It seems the FFJ is down for me right know or I could find out more.

What is more interesting to me is what whynut said about Trip DeMuth and the tape and that it was not the same production run as on the paintings:
http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/Duct+Tape+on+Mouth

Does that mean it was the same brand of tape on the paintings?

Thank you for that Rupert, but that is just a one sentence blurb on the Wiki about the cord. WHO determined it was Stansport brand? Is it in an interview or in one of the books? I don't always take the word of the Wiki as being "true" information.

[Rupert]

Thank you for that Rupert, but that is just a one sentence blurb on the Wiki about the cord. WHO determined it was Stansport brand? Is it in an interview or in one of the books? I don't always take the word of the Wiki as being "true" information.

Zoey,
You must make the effort to pick on the links (eg. "determined") and that will take you to the sources.

And check out that tape. I found what I have been looking for.

[SaraSidle]

What did you find

[Rupert]

What did you find

I cannot say.