Two Ramsey Questions

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I think JB's head injury was more like a closed head injury. There didn't appear to be blood in her hair, the first people to see her didn't even realize she had a devastating head injury, so it stands to reason there would be no blood spatter. It just didn't bleed that much.

While there's no proof of anything in this case, except that JB was killed, I do think she was definitely killed in the home no matter who killed her or for what reason. There's really no evidence of an intruder let alone evidence that someone took JB out then brought her back again.

JMO

Closed head injury? OMG: It measured 7x4" and 8 1/2 L. If that head injury was inflicted before the strangulation you better believe there would have been a POOL of blood which is why they determined the head injury occurred at or near death.

BTW Ocean -- your posts are articulated well and make alot of sense. JMO

This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of the is area of
hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
forward tot he right frontal area across the parietal skull.
In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the
fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the
occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures
approximately 8.5 inches in length.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.ca...l.autopsy.html

[cantstandnuts]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


Thanks so much nutmeg! At least I didn't dream it. I have read sooooooooo much about this case it all becomes blurry at times.

I agree someone hates John Ramsey............and hates his power and money. Very very volatile imo he probably had been storing up all this negative energy and wrath for a while digesting it until it became toxic waste. This killer was going to show him what all his power and money could do! Not a da*n thing! This murder is a lot about control and power...... this was simply a "takeover" move on this guys part to him imo.

I find him to be probably be a sociopath........when they feel they are wounded they will go to extreme lengths to bannish anyone who does not conform to their way of thinking. I still say a loner.

IMO





Ocean

If you read and pay attention to the ransom note, what you believe, Ocean, is really the only thing that makes sense, given the note. The ransom note reeks of anger and hatred toward John and I have only been able to interpret it that way. I know the other theory out there is Patsy wrote it, but that note doesn't make any sense with her as the author.

I totally agree with you, someone hated him and planned this meticulously and could have been caught only if the BPD hadn't botched the investigation so thoroughly. Now, I fear we'll never know. Someone got away with this due to the incompetence of LE.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Athena


Closed head injury? OMG: It measured 7x4" and 8 1/2 L. If that head injury was inflicted before the strangulation you better believe there would have been a POOL of blood which is why they determined the head injury occurred at or near death.

BTW Ocean -- your posts are articulated well and make alot of sense. JMO

This encompasses an area measuring approximately 7x4 inches. This grossly appears to be fresh hemorrhage with no evidence of organization. At the superior extension of the is area of
hemorrhage is a linear to comminuted skull fracture which
extends from the right occipital to posteroparietal area
forward tot he right frontal area across the parietal skull.
In the posteroparietal area of this fracture is a roughly
rectangular shaped displaced fragment of skull measuring one
and three-quarters by one-half inch. The hemorrhage and the
fracture extend posteriorly just past the midline of the
occipital area of the skull. This fracture measures
approximately 8.5 inches in length.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.ca...l.autopsy.html

I did not say it WAS a closed head injury did I? I said it was LIKE a closed head injury in that it didn't bleed much. Her hair was not even bloody.

I actually made a post that SUPPORTED your intruder theory, in that the head injury came last. No need to roll your eyes like a kid in grade school.

I'll go back to my "the Ramseys are guilty" stance, which is what I believe and close my mind to other information. The "jealous of John intruder" is getting about as plausible as Martians abducting JBR and then returning her, IMO.

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

[sunsplashed]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nutmeg22

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes again. He accomplished what he wanted to do and more so.

I think I read here or maybe another site where JB was at the mall and she told a friend that a Santa had told her that he was making a special trip to come see her . The friend tried to tell her that Santa came on Christmas morning not that night. JB argued with her and said no he said then.

Have you heard that?

I just read the ransom note over again. It just reeks of a disgruntled person who is extremely unhappy with his own situation and is striking out. It is aimed at John. The sentence that John "isn't the only fat cat around"...speaks volumes.
Yes, the friend told JB that Santa comes on Christmas day and JB said that Santa had told her no he was making a special visti to her AFTER Christmas. I don't have a link, I just read that part in PMPT.

Better read that note again. Someone "respects" JR, yet brutally murders his daughter?

No, no way.

JMO

[nutmeg22]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sunsplashed
[B]

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

Sunsplashed I knew what you meant when you said "closed head injury"...and I enjoy your posts, have for a long time. I don't want you to leave and hope you don't. I think the more variety of opinion we have the better the discussion. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I did not say it WAS a closed head injury did I? I said it was LIKE a closed head injury in that it didn't bleed much. Her hair was not even bloody.

I actually made a post that SUPPORTED your intruder theory, in that the head injury came last. No need to roll your eyes like a kid in grade school.

I'll go back to my "the Ramseys are guilty" stance, which is what I believe and close my mind to other information. The "jealous of John intruder" is getting about as plausible as Martians abducting JBR and then returning her, IMO.

I get attacked for being on the fence. I get attacked for believing the Ramseys are guilty. I get attacked for saying it could have been an intruder. I get attacked for typos. I get attacked for grammar. I get the message that you want me to leave and not let the door hit me on the way out, but that isn't your decision to make.

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

Sun -- that was immature on my part for the rolleyes bit and I apologize; my intention was not to attack you and apparently I read your post incorrectly. My sincere apology.

[nutmeg22]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Better read that note again. Someone "respects" JR, yet brutally murders his daughter?

No, no way.

JMO

Ok, I am going to go read it again.

[Jadedblueeyes]

You know sometimes especially people that may be loners and have little or no friends don't ever voice their displeasure verbally but it is deep down internally their dark mind that these thoughts start to grow and flourish. We don't know what sparked this but it may have been something that seems really insignificant to us but to him it was everything.

So if he sat there like a little unassuming guy........then no one would know what lurked in his mind.

If ever caught which I will always pray happens. I think he is going to be seen as the least likely one to have done this. I think he has fooled everyone. Even those who may come into contact with him.

I bet he is no JK and has not said one word about the Ramsey case or even lets on like he cares one way or the other.

IMO

Ocean

[nutmeg22]

sunsplashed, the note states "we respect your bussines but not the country it serves.." I think the killer is fed up with his station in life..he may not know John Ramsey as a personal friend, but it sure is aimed at men who are successful and wealthy and he picked John Ramsey's daughter for this. I don't know everything and I am sure not a professional so the killer doesn't make alot of sense to me, it just looks to me like the killer is in a way feeling sorry for himself, feeling trod upon by more successful men, feeling like a failure. Again, I am no professional.JMO

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Better read that note again. Someone "respects" JR, yet brutally murders his daughter?

No, no way.

JMO

You expect a confirmed blatant liar not to lie where it behooves him?

So if that is in there then he is making sure that he is insinuating that he has respect for JR. Yes, what respect......nothing like paying your respects and leaving your daughter murdered in their own home.

IMO

Ocean

[nutmeg22]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes
You know sometimes especially people that may be loners and have little or no friends don't ever voice their displeasure verbally but it is deep down internally their dark mind that these thoughts start to grow and flourish. We don't know what sparked this but it may have been something that seems really insignificant to us but to him it was everything.

So if he sat there like a little unassuming guy........then no one would know what lurked in his mind.

If ever caught which I will always pray happens. I think he is going to be seen as the least likely one to have done this. I think he has fooled everyone. Even those who may come into contact with him.

I bet he is no JK and has not said one word about the Ramsey case or even lets on like he cares one way or the other.


I enjoy your posts, Ocean, along with alot of other posters you always have something interesting to say. I agree that when caught, people will say he is the least likely one to have done this. The force of the blow to JB's head had to be done in anger and frustration.JMO

IMO

Ocean

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by Jadedblueeyes


You expect a confirmed blatant liar not to lie where it behooves him?

So if that is in there then he is making sure that he is insinuating that he has respect for JR. Yes, what respect......nothing like paying your respects and leaving your daughter murdered in their own home.

IMO

Ocean

Who are you speaking of? Who is a confirmed, blatant liar?

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by sunsplashed

It's a good thing for me cyberattacks are harmless or in this case I'd be dead.

JMO

SNIPPED

:lol: Not laughing at ya, sun, but that's funny.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Barbara Kostanick - mother of JonBenet playmate

from PMPT pg. 50:

"The day before Christmas, JonBenet was at our house playing with Megan. The kids were talking about Santa, getting all excited. I asked JonBenet if she had visited Santa Claus yet. She said, "Oh, Santa was at our Christmas party the other night." Megan had seen Santa at the Pearl Street Mall, so we talked about that.

Then JonBenet said, "Santa Claus promised that he would make a secret visit after Christmas."

I thought she was confused. "Christmas is tonight," I told her. "And Santa will be coming tonight."

"No, no," JonBenet insisted. "He said this would be after Christmas. And it's a secret." (Barbara Kostanick)

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


Who are you speaking of? Who is a confirmed, blatant liar?

The killer? Did he not say that JB had been kidnapped for money?

Did the note/letter writer infer if 118K was paid he would return her?

Was that true?

Did he lie? Yes.

IMO of course.

Ocean

[samsong]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


I think JB's head injury was more like a closed head injury. There didn't appear to be blood in her hair, the first people to see her didn't even realize she had a devastating head injury, so it stands to reason there would be no blood spatter. It just didn't bleed that much.

While there's no proof of anything in this case, except that JB was killed, I do think she was definitely killed in the home no matter who killed her or for what reason. There's really no evidence of an intruder let alone evidence that someone took JB out then brought her back again.

JMO

I agree with you. One of the main reasons the body was left in the house, for the people who think the Ramseys did it, was to avoid having activity outside the home to alert the neighbors. I would imagine it would be the same thing with an intruder.

[MissOtisRegrets]

non-family recently in basement:

1. the painters - door to wine cellar (room where JonBenet's body was found) painted but not the room, itself

2. whoever delivered the six trees from the Access Graphics storage hangar and stored them in the wine cellar

3. housekeeper, her husband, her daughter, and her daughter's husband, who carried the trees upstairs to the five bedrooms and playroom at the end of November

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Athena


She was talking about two different nights. The first night was Christmas EVE and here is the next few lines from the transcript and the night she was killed was Christmas NIGHT. This is exactly the reason posts should not be copied from other forums. JMHO

TT: Okay, how about JonBenet. What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear sort of . . .

TT: Tops and bottoms.

PR: Tops and bottoms, you know.

TT: Okay. Take you back how to open presents between seven, 7:30, what did you guys do after you open the presents up.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

Cont'd

19 PATSY RAMSEY: She did not wear it

20 Christmas night, you know.

21 THOMAS HANEY: So when you put her

22 to bed, on Christmas night, do you recall, would

23 that or could that have been in the bed?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: It could have been

25 under the pillow or something, you know.


http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm

I'm sorry to bring this up again Athena, but when you say PR was talking about two different nights, what nights do you think she was talking about in the above transcripts?

I am trying to figure out what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve, and why she would have had a nightgown under her pillow. In the transcripts I quoted it sounds to me as if PR gives two different answers as to what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve.

When PR says "that day she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear", "tops and bottoms", I got the impression that was when JB came downstairs after she had awaken to open presents Christmas morning.

Do you have a different impression?

IMO

[MissOtisRegrets]

What purpose did this cord serve?


http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.ca...l.autopsy.html

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
is also frayed.

[Athena]

Originally posted by Hopeintown


I'm sorry to bring this up again Athena, but when you say PR was talking about two different nights, what nights do you think she was talking about in the above transcripts?

I am trying to figure out what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve, and why she would have had a nightgown under her pillow. In the transcripts I quoted it sounds to me as if PR gives two different answers as to what JB wore to bed on Christmas Eve.

When PR says "that day she was wearing pink little kind of insulated underwear", "tops and bottoms", I got the impression that was when JB came downstairs after she had awaken to open presents Christmas morning.

Do you have a different impression?

IMO

This is only my interpretation -- and no need to be sorry.

My impression is that she wore the pink set (given to her by her Aunt) Christmas Eve into Christmas morning. The white top and bottoms she wore on the night she was killed; Christmas night.

The nightgown you are referring to was not under her pillow. From what I read it was either in a bathroom drawer adjacent to her room or in the "dirty clothes". Patsy wasn't sure. (I believe you are referring to the Barbie nightgown? If you are pull up the transcript and do a search for "Barbie" and you'll see they are actually three differerent situations. The Barbie nightgown was found next to her body in the wine cellar. jmo

Let me know if you think differently.

[peachdaquari]

I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
What purpose did this cord serve?


http://www.cnn.com/US/9703/ramsey.ca...l.autopsy.html

Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white
cord. At the knot there is one tail end which measures 5.5 inches in
length with a frayed end. The other tail of the knot measures 15.5
inches in length and ends in a double loop knot. This end of the cord
is also frayed.

It served no purpose, IMO, it was intended to make it look like JB had been restrained but thats laughable when you look at it. JMO

[Athena]

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post

LOL - never grew up in the South but there were six children in our family. My mom had enough laundry to do without us wearing a different pair of pajamas/nightgowns to bed each night so when we made our beds in the morning we'd put our nightclothes under the pillows to wear again.

The nightgown under the pillow became significant when trying to find out how her "Barbie" nightgown came to be beside her in the wine cellar and turned out she hadn't worn it for a few nights. It was another set under her pillow that she used to change into between costume changes at the pageants, according to the transcripts above. jmo

[Athena]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


It served no purpose, IMO, it was intended to make it look like JB had been restrained but thats laughable when you look at it. JMO

Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

[peachdaquari]

Originally posted by Athena


LOL - never grew up in the South but there were six children in our family. My mom had enough laundry to do without us wearing a different pair of pajamas/nightgowns to bed each night so when we made our beds in the morning we'd put our nightclothes under the pillows to wear again.

The nightgown under the pillow became significant when trying to find out how her "Barbie" nightgown came to be beside her in the wine cellar and turned out she hadn't worn it for a few nights. It was another set under her pillow that she used to change into between costume changes at the pageants, according to the transcripts above. jmo

oooooh ok, I bet your right, my mom had 5 kids so it probably was a laundry issue:lol:

thanks for the rest of the info too

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by msgatorslayer


It served no purpose, IMO, it was intended to make it look like JB had been restrained but thats laughable when you look at it. JMO

No bruising on right wrist.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

Disposing of leftover cord?

[Jadedblueeyes]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Disposing of leftover cord?

I wonder if he still has the third piece of the paintbrush? His souvenir perhaps?

IMO

Ocean

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Disposing of leftover cord?

Or staging it to make it look like a sex crime?

[hohum]

Originally posted by sunsplashed
that the family was in the habit of using the back staircase, etc., and ALSO that JBR would go quietly to the basement with him. (A stun gun could not have been used without attracting a lot of attention - I posted the link to that yesterday.)



JMO

It wouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the back staircase since it goes between the bedrooms and the kitchen area. Do more research on the stun gun, preferably something other than the biased Air Taser response.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post

a friend of mine did the same t hing when we were growing up, i always thought it was strange but i guess its a custom for some people.

[hohum]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


It wouldn't be "terrible publicity" for Air Taser. Air Taser's customers weren't going to stop buying stun guns because someone MAY have used one in a murder.

And anyone could have done independent testing to see if Air Taser was truthful. A lie would hurt them more than being truthful.

Even Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Oh do please give us that link where Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Of course Air Taser did not want to be associated with such a notorious crime. That kind of publicity is never good.

[Hopeintown]

Originally posted by Athena


This is only my interpretation -- and no need to be sorry.

My impression is that she wore the pink set (given to her by her Aunt) Christmas Eve into Christmas morning. The white top and bottoms she wore on the night she was killed; Christmas night.

The nightgown you are referring to was not under her pillow. From what I read it was either in a bathroom drawer adjacent to her room or in the "dirty clothes". Patsy wasn't sure. (I believe you are referring to the Barbie nightgown? If you are pull up the transcript and do a search for "Barbie" and you'll see they are actually three differerent situations. The Barbie nightgown was found next to her body in the wine cellar. jmo

Let me know if you think differently.

Thanks for the information. There are many things I had forgotten about pertaining to this case, and that Barbie nightgown is one of them. It's strange how it ended up in the cellar next to JB.

In reading the transcripts it just sounded odd to me that JB had a nightgown under her pillow, and if I remember correctly wasn't the underwear she was found in from a new package?

Anyway, it sounds to me as if PR is saying in one interview that JB had on a nightgown on Christmas Eve, and in another she said JB was wearing insulated two piece underwear. She also said that JB's pajamas were kept in the bathroom drawer unless they were in the dirty clothes.

IMO


1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm


1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/1...ew-Complete.htm

Christmas Morning

TT: Okay. How about JonBenét? What kind of pajamas was she wearing?

PR: She was wearing, that day, she was wearing pink, little kind of insulated underwear, sort of...

TT: tops and bottoms?

PR tops and bottoms, you know.

http://www.webbsleuths.org/dcforum/DCForumID35/35.html

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

would make sense as part of staging ....especially if they used a stun gun, no need to restrain if jbr was unconscious.

[hohum]

Originally posted by peachdaquari
I dont know anything about a nightgown under her pillow but could it be a southern thing? Or an "old school" thing?? My mom
used to have us girls put our nightie under our pillow, I have no idea why as I must have been very young and didnt even remember that until I read that post

I am from the South and I remember the nightgown under the pillow. I also had a stuffed animal with a zipper to put pjs in.

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


would make sense as part of staging ....especially if they used a stun gun, no need to restrain if jbr was unconscious.

I think it's significant that JB had two sets of stun gun marks.

[msgatorslayer]

Originally posted by Athena


Sounds like it was part of the "staging" by the killer. I do remember hearing that one of the ties even came right off so wasn't even a restraint. jmo

Mr.Gator laughed when he saw it. Not only are the knots slip type and easy to move but there is to much cord left between the wrist holes to completely restrain someone.

[hohum]

Originally posted by sunsplashed


If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I'd be more inclined to go along with someone who wanted JB out of the pageant circuit (those pageant moms CAN get very brutal).

If it wasn't one of the Ramseys, I think it was someone who hated JB, not JR.

JMO

LOL what will people think of next........

Did the ransom note say I hate you JB? My gosh the killer did not know or could not even spell her name and referred to her as "your daughter."

[Gregor's Back]

All of you have followed this case much more closely than I have, so maybe someone can tell me why what I believe is implausible.

What struck me the first time I saw Brooke was that he seems to have been the complete opposite of JonBenet in looks, personality and talent.

He seems to truly have lived in her shadow.

Since the Ramseys have never been eliminated, and since there's no clear cut proof there was an intruder, and especially since there have been some experts who say Patsy wrote the note, I thought if Patsy found the body, and if she believed Brooke was responsible, whether he really was or not, I could imagine her writing the note and getting John to help stage the scene to look like an intruder had been in the house.

I don't think Patsy or John would have covered for each other, but I believe they would try to protect their only remaining child.

[sunsplashed]

Originally posted by hohum


Oh do please give us that link where Lou Smit dropped the stun gun theory.

Of course Air Taser did not want to be associated with such a notorious crime. That kind of publicity is never good.

I can tell you're not in marketing. ANY publicity is GOOD publicity.

I asked you previously how this could possibly harm Air Taser and you didn't answer, so I assume, since you answer all questions, that you just missed it.

How could it possibly harm Air Taser? They weren't involved in the murder of JBR. They weren't a suspect. Their customers, which, for the most part involved law enforcement and private security firms, etc., weren't going to stop buying anything from them.

Independent tests were done which proved that Air Taser was quite truthful.

So, how could they be harmed?