Two Ramsey Questions

[hohum]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


Hi TCH! LTNS!

After Patsy's death one of her sisters was on LKL (I think it was) and said that extra packages of undies in various sizes were kept at the house just in case a guest needed a pair.
Since I don't have a link, I'll just MOO it.

Thanks for posting and resolving the undies mystery, not that someone won't ask about this at least 20 more times. A poster has even tried to make Patsy out as a bad mother for making JB wearing undies that were too large.

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Was a satisfactory explanation ever given for this?:


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Body

"A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF P 149; PSMF P 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF P 150; PSMF P 150.)" (Carnes 2003:17).


TIA

Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post!

[TGCJ]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Amen Arizona! The baiting is so childish here, nitpicking is pretty hysterical and the gang rushing is just bullyish.

...havent you heard, theres a big prize waiting for who can be the biggest bully and post the most finger wagging icons.

books, transcripts, interrogation videos can be used for either side of the fence to form an opinion. the bottom line is whether youre for or against the ramseys its still defies logic that the child was killed in the house, the perp left no evidence, and the parents just dont have a clue who would have done such a thing or why.

someone was chastized because they thought maybe the beauty pagents had something to do with jbr being killed. well why wouldnt a creep that likes little kids not focus on a beauty pagent. it was just another example of trying to defend patsy imo.
as far as spelling grammar and syntax, heres what a master story teller had to say about those things.

http://www.twainquotes.com/Spelling.html

i admit it makes me feel better when i see someones spelling thats worse than mine but it doesnt mean they dont have something worthwhile to say.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


Oh sure NG is hardly ever mentioned here.

What books have you read? There are many facts of the case not personal opinions in Perfect Murder Perfect Town. Have you read that book? Facts come from research and reading not message boards.:lol:

oh gee thanks for letting me know......so your assuming because we are all here, including you, that we only get our info from here. Please......like i said, blanket statements, some maybe, but not most. Most get their info from interviews, depositions, photos, then and only then do they make their own opinions. There are ALOT of intelligent people on both sides of this fence, and even the ones who sit right smack in the middle. Call the ones out that you want to, but dont dare say it is most people here, that is ignorant and arrogant.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post!

I know this will make you crazy but I saw a program on tv (I believe it was not too long before Patsy died, I have no idea what the show was or who was speaking, I was still following Blake) in which it was said that fibers consistent with those of the cord she was tied with were found in JonBenet's bed. Since the white blanket from the bed was taken to the basement, do you believe she was taken to the basement already bound/unconscious? Do you believe a stun gun was used?

TIA

[drip~drop1]

Originally posted by hohum


Thanks for posting and resolving the undies mystery, not that someone won't ask about this at least 20 more times. A poster has even tried to make Patsy out as a bad mother for making JB wearing undies that were too large.

I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


oh gee thanks for letting me know......so your assuming because we are all here, including you, that we only get our info from here.

You keep insinuating you don't get your info from here. Have you remembered what books you read yet, about the JB case?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


Not that I have read. It's not something that is even mentioned very often in discussions. I feel that speculation is just around the corner though. If you read anything about it please post!

But, if she wasn't wearing it, why was it there? For clean up?

[hohum]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

This would be found on the JB threads when they open again after the holiday. Maybe you would be so kind to post the answer to the undies mystery on that board if you have time.

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


But, if she wasn't wearing it, why was it there? For clean up?

I don't know, but it's a good question. I have heard very little discussion of that Barbie nightgown. Just a mention here and there. One hears more about the blanket. And of course the never ending discussion of JBs top she was found in and what color was it.........:lol:

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


You keep insinuating you don't get your info from here. Have you remembered what books you read yet, about the JB case?

There are no facts on this forum, just opinions and nice people who can point you to the facts. The facts that are in the books are the same facts that are in the documents, autopsy, karrs arrest warrants, etc. The books are only the authors opinions based on the facts. So how would reading the books enlighten me even more than the facts that are at our fingertips?

Example: Coldwater can write a book tomorrow about this case, based on the facts and sway the readers opinion. Its truly the authors opinion based on the facts.


PS sorry CW .....just needed to use a neutral name

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


I know this will make you crazy but I saw a program on tv (I believe it was not too long before Patsy died, I have no idea what the show was or who was speaking, I was still following Blake) in which it was said that fibers consistent with those of the cord she was tied with were found in JonBenet's bed. Since the white blanket from the bed was taken to the basement, do you believe she was taken to the basement already bound/unconscious? Do you believe a stun gun was used?

TIA

I did hear about the fibers from the cord. I have never realized a theory of the night JB died. I absolutely do believe the stun gun theory and there is proof--the two sets of marks, identical and the same distance apart. There are many good shows on this case, for instance the 48 Hours show and others. If you see any that are coming to TV please let us know.

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


So how would reading the books enlighten me even more than the facts that are at our fingertips?

Then are you saying you haven't read any books about the JB case?

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by hohum


Then are you saying you haven't read any books about the JB case?

Did you read my last post? I said i dont have to.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by hohum


I did hear about the fibers from the cord. I have never realized a theory of the night JB died. I absolutely do believe the stun gun theory and there is proof--the two sets of marks, identical and the same distance apart. There are many good shows on this case, for instance the 48 Hours show and others. If you see any that are coming to TV please let us know.

I was just starting to write you a post about it being odd that the perp would bring a blanket to protect her from the cold, if it was intended to keep her in the house or kill her, and risk getting fibers all over himself for nothing, when I thought, "She was soaked with urine! He was protecting himself from the urine!" That might, also, explain the nightgown that was kept under the pillow being brought to the basement.

[drip~drop1]

Originally posted by hohum


This would be found on the JB threads when they open again after the holiday. Maybe you would be so kind to post the answer to the undies mystery on that board if you have time.

I will if you remind me. lol
I've barely been to the JBR board since I realized JMK nutzy nutz.

I think I'm back on the fence again.

>
>
>
>
If CW writes a book do we get autographed copies?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


If CW writes a book do we get autographed copies?

Yes. We get free autographed copies.


Hey drip!



house

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


Yes. We get free autographed copies.


Hey drip!



house

geez i bet she could write a book about all these boards, now THAT would be interesting.

I would love to know her opinion on some of these cases. I remember her having a few comments during the SP trial. But not for either side. Very neutral

[Athena]

Hey jerzeegirl
I was wondering where u were. I had left you a message on the board where we were discussing the storm (I think it was the Introductions thread) and asked you to check in. The last I saw a message from you it sounded like you were worried about flooding and I thought you may have lost your connection.

Anyway good to see you are safe and hopefully dry!!

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena
Hey jerzeegirl
I was wondering where u were. I had left you a message on the board where we were discussing the storm (I think it was the Introductions thread) and asked you to check in. The last I saw a message from you it sounded like you were worried about flooding and I thought you may have lost your connection.

Anyway good to see you are safe and hopefully dry!!

Thanks athena, i did lose power, on and off yesterday. The lagoons flooded us out and my neighbors tree split in half, landed on my jeep in the driveway. Still there pending insurance companies next week. Could be a while. Noone hurt thank god. The water went back out today with low tide....phew!

Im in ocean county NJ. If youve ever heard of Point Pleasant or Tomsriver (seaside), im right smack between those two towns.

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Was a satisfactory explanation ever given for this?:


http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/The%20Body

"A "Barbie" nightgown belonging to JonBenet was also found in the wine cellar near her body. (SMF P 149; PSMF P 149.) JonBenet's blood was found only on her body and the Barbie nightgown. (SMF P 150; PSMF P 150.)" (Carnes 2003:17).


TIA

Hiya MissOtis....

I have searched and searched and cannot find any info on this nightgown. The only thing I could find was the interview with Patsy Ramsey where she was questioned about it and in reading it now realize that the Barbie nightgown was not the nightgown under JBR's pillow. It was another one-piece described as a Genie outfit.

But anyway the transcript:

21 TOM HANEY: This is the pink -- excuse me --

22 the pink item that again is in a plastic bag where the

23 photo was taken.

24 PATSY RAMSEY: That is her (inaudible). Why

25 was that there?

0383

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

13 TOM HANEY: Where would this particular --

14 well, let me back up.

15 Does this item have some particular

16 significance?

17 PATSY RAMSEY: No. No.

18 TOM HANEY: How many nightgowns did she have?

19 PATSY RAMSEY: A lot.

20 TOM HANEY: Twenty, 30?

21 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, 10 or so.

22 TOM HANEY: Did this one have some particular

23 significance?

24 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

25 TOM HANEY: Do you remember who gave it to

0384

1 her?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

3 TOM HANEY: Do you remember whether you got

4 it for her? Was it a gift.

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Oh, God, it might --

6 TOM HANEY: Take some time because this is --

7 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Is this the only

8 picture we have of this?

9 TOM HANEY: Correct. The only one here

10 today.

11 PATSY RAMSEY: I'm thinking of a Barbie

12 nightgown that had a big face of Barbie.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: It has a plastic over it, so

14 there is some glare there. You see the plastic.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah; right. What I'm saying,

16 I'm -- I remember a Barbie nightgown with a picture,

17 big picture of the head of Barbie on it. So I am not

18 quite sure this is her -- you know, one that she had.

19 TOM HANEY: Okay. You know, it appears --

20 PATSY RAMSEY: That is a Barbie doll under

21 there.

22 TOM HANEY: It appears from the waist down

23 you can see that much, but from the waist up, because

24 of the plastic, there is a flash and the reflection

25 that is washed out.

0385

1 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. The nightgowns were

2 kept in the bathroom, in her bathroom in the side

3 drawer there. Her pajamas were there.

4 TOM HANEY: All of them?

5 PATSY RAMSEY: Unless they were in the dirty

6 clothes.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/19...w-Complete.htm

[Athena]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Thanks athena, i did lose power, on and off yesterday. The lagoons flooded us out and my neighbors tree split in half, landed on my jeep in the driveway. Still there pending insurance companies next week. Could be a while. Noone hurt thank god. The water went back out today with low tide....phew!

Im in ocean county NJ. If youve ever heard of Point Pleasant or Tomsriver (seaside), im right smack between those two towns.

Just glad you are OK. That is what is important.
Actually I have heard of those towns -- is Wayne anywhere near you??

[jerzeegirl]

maybe the killer was going to change her into the nightgown, just in case his/her fibers, hairs were left on her clothes that she was wearing. Confusing.

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


Just glad you are OK. That is what is important.
Actually I have heard of those towns -- is Wayne anywhere near you??

no, wayne is more north Jersey. Probably parallel to NYC, a little further west. Very nice town though, thats bergen county, big money there, alot of commuters from NYC live there.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Thanks Athena! Am I understanding this correctly that Patsy doesn't even think that is JonBenet's gown?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Glad you are OK, jerzeegirl. The pictures on tv are horrific.

Take good care,



house

[Angelina]

Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/E.../behavior.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


Did you read my last post? I said i dont have to.

That explains a lot.

[Athena]

Originally posted by drip~drop1


I hadn't read the whole thread so I didn't realize there was a dispute. I mostly wanted to give a shout out to tch. lol

But anyhoooo, I know lots of parents with young children that keep xtra packages of undies available for "just in case" emergencies. Heck, my parents did it too. Kept em in the guest room dressers.

Patsy bought the underwear at Bloomingdales in NY as a gift for her niece who was older than JonBenet but never gave them to her. Patsy did not put on JonBenet's underwear -- she did. They were in her underwear drawer and they said Wednesday on them and Christmas 1996 was a Wed.

Link to transcript:
18 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Well, let's start
19 with what - I will make it very simple for
20 you, Mrs. Ramsey. What information are you
21 in possession of or what do you know about
22 the underwear that your daughter was wearing
23 at the time she was found murdered?
24 A. I have heard that she had on a
25 pair of Bloomi's that said Wednesday on them.
0078
1 Q. The underwear that she was
2 wearing, that is Bloomi's panties, do you
3 know where they come from as far as what
4 store?
5 A. Bloomingdales in New York.
6 Q. Who purchased those?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. Do you recall when you purchased
9 them?
10 A. It was, I think, November of '96.
11 Q. In the fall of 1996, how many
12 trips did you make to New York?
13 A. Two, I believe.
14 Q. Do you recall, and again, the
15 same, same qualification I gave you when we
16 started, which is, I understand that you are
17 not going to give me exact dates, but the
18 two trips you made, did you make those with
19 different groups of people?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. The first trip, who was that trip
22 with?
23 A. The first trip was a
24 mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra
25 Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan
0079
1 Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her
2 daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms.
3 Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her
4 daughter, and JonBenet and myself.
5 Q. And the second trip you made was?
6 A. The second trip we made was with
7 Glen and Susan Stein.
8 Q. Is that the trip -- which trip
9 was the November trip?
10 A. With the children.
11 Q. Was that -- that is the first
12 trip?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And the second trip that you and
15 your husband and the Steins took, was that
16 also November, but later in the month, or
17 was that a December trip?
18 A. I think it was December.
19 Q. And maybe this will help jog your
20 memory as to time. I believe that was the
21 time of the Christmas parade in Boulder.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were you out of town?
0080
1 A. I remember that.
2 Q. Which of those two trips did you
3 purchase the Bloomi's?
4 A. The first trip.
5 Q. Was it something that was selected
6 by JonBenet?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. Was it your intention, when you
9 purchased those, for those to be for her,
10 not for some third party as a gift?
11 A. I bought some things that were
12 gifts and some things for her. So I
13 don't --
14 Q. Just so I am clear, though, it is
15 your best recollection that the purchase of
16 the underpants, the Bloomi's days of the
17 week, was something that you bought for her,
18 whether it was just I am buying underwear
19 for my kids or these are special, here's a
20 present, that doesn't matter, but it was your
21 intention that she would wear those?
22 A. Well, I think that I bought a
23 package of the -- they came in a package of
24 Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
25 I think I bought a package to give to my
0081
1 niece.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/20...w-Complete.htm

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Glad you are OK, jerzeegirl. The pictures on tv are horrific.

Take good care,



house

thanks MsO........

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl
maybe the killer was going to change her into the nightgown, just in case his/her fibers, hairs were left on her clothes that she was wearing. Confusing.

And there was blood on the nightgown. Hard to understand what was going through the perp's mind, when he took her downstairs. I think it's more likely she was carried, incapacitated or bound or both, because the blanket from the bed was brought. Why would it have been brought, if she was walking?

[Athena]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets
Thanks Athena! Am I understanding this correctly that Patsy doesn't even think that is JonBenet's gown?

Hmm . the way I read it is that she knew she had a Barbie nightgown she was sure she had not worn it in the past couple of days. I don't think it was clear in the photo shown her. I think if you read further in the transcript she does ask if there was another photo of it. imo

1 TOM HANEY: What is it?

2 PATSY RAMSEY: It is her Barbie nightgown.

3 TOM HANEY: Is that hers or her Barbie

4 doll's? When would she have worn that last, do you

5 know?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, she didn't wear it that

7 night because she had her -- she had the long underwear

8 pants and her little white shirt. And the night before

9 on Christmas Eve night she wore the pink little

10 (inaudible) that was under her pillow. You saw that.

11 And before that I don't remember. But neither of those

12 two nights she wore that.

[hohum]

Originally posted by MissOtisRegrets


And there was blood on the nightgown. Hard to understand what was going through the perp's mind, when he took her downstairs. I think it's more likely she was carried, incapacitated or bound or both, because the blanket from the bed was brought. Why would it have been brought, if she was walking?

But then when did she eat the pineapple?

[Athena]

Originally posted by hohum


But then when did she eat the pineapple?

I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Angelina
Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/E.../behavior.html

Very interesting, Angelina. Thanks for posting this. I am reading PMPT at the moment. It states that the FBI, also, thought the sexual aspects of this crime were staged.

[MissOtisRegrets]

Originally posted by Athena


Hmm . the way I read it is that she knew she had a Barbie nightgown she was sure she had not worn it in the past couple of days. I don't think it was clear in the photo shown her. I think if you read further in the transcript she does ask if there was another photo of it. imo

Thanks. I had trouble understanding what she was saying and thought she was saying the picture on JB's only had Barbie's head on it. At any rate, it was not the nightgown under her pillow. It would have come from a drawer in the bathroom. Right? How would a perp know that?

[jerzeegirl]

Originally posted by Athena


I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

ok lets assume its not pineapple in her intestine. Still.....how did the bowl of pineapple get on the counter?

was the intruder comfortable enough to sit and eat fruit before they got home? Remember hes prolly crazy anyway....why not?

[Athena]

Originally posted by Angelina
Here is theory that I think is very probable. It makes sense, I will remain a fencesitter, though.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/E.../behavior.html

Hi Angelina,

I actually responded to a post that DixieChick made a couple of pages back with the same link (below). l had also posted it on the regular forum but did not get many responses. Do you know if the Ramseys knew any friends/associates in law enforcement?

Originally posted by DixieChick


Totally outrageous!!! Sad, they were not given the presumption of innocence that every person deserves.

I would believe someone in the police dept did the crime before I would believe it was either John or Patsy!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Athena


Funny you should say that about the Police. The author of this Behavioral Analysis believes the killer may have been someone in law enforcement. Of course any analysis is speculation but it is quite fascinating:

THE OFFENDER:

The offender , and human monster, is above all an individual who has a tremendous need for excitement, recognition and attention. It is an organized offender who is skilled, pays close attention to details, and is capable of meticulously carrying out a complex plan. The offender has the need and ability to control others, and is in some position of power or authority. Being of high intelligence, this individual would be employed as a professional, and simply could not tolerate a subservient job. An ability to communicate would be present, with reasonably good social skills, but only in their role as a professional. In everyday personal relationships they would come across as a very cold, distant and insensitive person. It is not likely that they would have a spouse, or many close , personal relationships. They would be totally wrapped up in their profession , and their life would be their job in Law Enforcement. This very knowledgeable offender knows about Police procedures, and as stated in the ransom note/letter, is "familiar with Law enforcement countermeasures, and tactics". This individual has also had extensive training, and probably did some extra studying, on matters involving child abduction and molestation.

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/...6/behavior.html

[hohum]

Originally posted by Athena


I'll probably get "beat up". Are we sure it was pineapple? I don't say too much about it cause everyone seems to be sure it was. But when I read the autopsy report I can't get the description out of my head that says, brownish, greenish substance consistent with pineapple. Maybe not the exact words -- how do we know it wasn't a vegetable or something she ate at the party? That keeps bugging me. Were they sure it was pineapple in the bowl or even if she definitely at out of that bowl? I recall reading somewhere they did not even notice the bowl until hours later?

Pineapple seems like something that would have been at the White's party but I am thinking, no link, that Priscilla said no pineapple was there? To be sure LE investigated all that JB would have eaten the last 24 hours. Didn't they?

[Athena]

Originally posted by jerzeegirl


ok lets assume its not pineapple in her intestine. Still.....how did the bowl of pineapple get on the counter?

was the intruder comfortable enough to sit and eat fruit before they got home? Remember hes prolly crazy anyway....why not?

LOL -- So there was pineapple in the bowl or was it empty? I don't know.

This case has so many twists and turns.