Race in the Case

[Deepwater]

A place to talk about the issue of race in the O.J. Simpson case.

Tread with care....

--D

[The Boys]

I think that the jury cared only about the fact that Simpson's skin color matched theirs. It's painfully obvious that the biases of some jury members came out. Before Fuhrman even took the stand a juror said he looked like a KKK member and a skinhead. If that's not prejudice rearing it's ugly head then I don't have an idea what is. And no black person on here seems to care but I can guarantee the reaction of those same people if I said something like "that juror is obviously ghetto or uneducated because of how she looks".

[GreenIce]

I think that the jury cared only about the fact that Simpson's skin color matched theirs. It's painfully obvious that the biases of some jury members came out. Before Fuhrman even took the stand a juror said he looked like a KKK member and a skinhead. If that's not prejudice rearing it's ugly head then I don't have an idea what is. And no black person on here seems to care but I can guarantee the reaction of those same people if I said something like "that juror is obviously ghetto or uneducated because of how she looks".

The Boys,

First, the jury was not all black. Please give examples of biases that came out.

Even if another member of the LAPD found that glove, it would not have changed a thing about it. The questions would have remained the same.

MF may have been written off by some jurors, however, he was not the only police officer or detective that had credibility issues. The jurors could not help but notice that MF and VA were telling different stories regarding key events, such as MF saying he did not tell VA about the thumps and VA telling that MF did tell him about the thumps.

MF choose to lie and not only did he lie, but he took everybody down with him. He knew this was going to be an issue, he knew that he was already involved in another case regarding the exact same issues. MF had every opportunity to come clean before he took the witness stand and while he was on the witness stand.

[Kate Sachel]

I think that the jury cared only about the fact that Simpson's skin color matched theirs. It's painfully obvious that the biases of some jury members came out. Before Fuhrman even took the stand a juror said he looked like a KKK member and a skinhead. If that's not prejudice rearing it's ugly head then I don't have an idea what is. And no black person on here seems to care but I can guarantee the reaction of those same people if I said something like "that juror is obviously ghetto or uneducated because of how she looks".

Good morning.

This is an extremely sensitive topic, however I am going to be frank in my discussion and hope that it will be a topic that can be discussed with maturity and a quest for understanding from all parts.

I do agree that the initial observation of Mark Fuhrman while en route to the witness stand raises questions. It is a prejudice, though not necessarily racist observation.

I do feel that this jury would have convicted OJ had they felt they had reason enough to do so, though the bar was undoubtedly set high in this particular case above and beyond the finding of "beyond a reasonable doubt".

I believe, based on comments after the trial, that these jurors felt that OJ probably did commit this crime, but that they also reasonable doubt. That reasonable doubt came, in my opinion, as a result of careless police and criminalist work. While I know that mistakes will simply be made, this case carried what seemed to be an above average range of such mistakes.

Is is possible that the jury had a motive? Absolutely, and we'll never know that with certainty though we all have, and are entitled to, our beliefs.

Kate

[tv]

Kate, I might agree with you if Carrie Bess hadn't made the comment 'we have to take care of our own' and if Lionel Cryor hadn't given the black power salute to OJ Simpson as the jury filed out after the verdict. That tells me that their motivation had to do with much more than police mistakes. That was simply the reason they gave for the acquittal, in my opinion.

[weezer]

I think it is such nonsense when people excuse this jury verdict by claiming that this jury understood things about the black community and LE that the rest of us can't AND then turn around and say that race didn't play a part in the verdict. :shrug:

[tv]

I think it is such nonsense when people excuse this jury verdict by claiming that this jury understood things about the black community and LE that the rest of us can't AND then turn around and say that race didn't play a part in the verdict. :shrug:

That's a good point that I never considered but apparently supporters of OJ Simpson's innocence want it both ways -- and so far they've had it both ways. Sometimes I think Brenda Moran was right; they didn't deliberate -- they got deliberated. Johnnie Cochran made sure of that with his mandate for them to send a message.

[William Anthony]

I think it is such nonsense when people excuse this jury verdict by claiming that this jury understood things about the black community and LE that the rest of us can't AND then turn around and say that race didn't play a part in the verdict. :shrug:

I am of the opinion and I have quoted David Dinkins on the issue of there not being a moment in America when race is a total irrelevancy. Of course, race played a part in the trial but not as significant a part as some want to hang on the jury, imho, and some, who want to forget the prosecution's miserable failure to prove its case.

[weezer]

That's a good point that I never considered but apparently supporters of OJ Simpson's innocence want it both ways -- and so far they've had it both ways. Sometimes I think Brenda Moran was right; they didn't deliberate -- they got deliberated. Johnnie Cochran made sure of that with his mandate for them to send a message.

kinda like the juror describing how she knew Fuhrman was a 'skinhead' when he walking to the witness stand but no one was suppose to take offense at that. so she made up her mind that he couldn't be trusted and that he was a racist all in one short first look -- but after months and months of testimony/evidence anyone believing orenthal guilty of the murders is racist? WTF???

[William Anthony]

I think that the jury cared only about the fact that Simpson's skin color matched theirs. It's painfully obvious that the biases of some jury members came out. Before Fuhrman even took the stand a juror said he looked like a KKK member and a skinhead. If that's not prejudice rearing it's ugly head then I don't have an idea what is. And no black person on here seems to care but I can guarantee the reaction of those same people if I said something like "that juror is obviously ghetto or uneducated because of how she looks".

I cannot speak for the jury but, as a Black man, I am aware of looks given by some Caucasians that allow me to know their feelings toward me. Having not been in a position to see what that jury saw when MF looked at them, I cannot say that they were wrong. In fact, by the evidence and the prosecution's concession, I can say there is evidence that those jurors were correct.

[tv]

kinda like the juror describing how she knew Fuhrman was a 'skinhead' when he walking to the witness stand but no one was suppose to take offense at that. so she made up her mind that he couldn't be trusted and that he was a racist all in one short first look -- but after months and months of testimony/evidence anyone believing orenthal guilty of the murders is racist? WTF???

I wonder what the criteria is for 'looking' like a white racist? Nice clothes, poise, good speaker? The next time I dress to speak in front of a group I'd better watch out -- I could be mistaken for a 'skinhead with hair'. :eek:

[William Anthony]

I wonder what the criteria is for 'looking' like a white racist? Nice clothes, poise, good speaker? The next time I dress to speak to a group I'd better watch out -- I could be mistaken for a 'skinhead with hair'. :eek:

I don't think it is a manner of dress or the correctness of the grammar so much as it is the tone and demeanor and the looks when a Caucasian interacts with a Black and vice versa, which may be a give away in some cases.

[weezer]

I wonder what the criteria is for 'looking' like a white racist? Nice clothes, poise, good speaker? The next time I dress to speak to a group I'd better watch out -- I could be mistaken for a 'skinhead with hair'. :eek:

LOL -- and for goodness sakes, don't write any books or be asked to consult on anything.

[William Anthony]

LOL -- and for goodness sakes, don't write any books or be asked to consult on anything.

I think one can be judged by the generality of the nasty comments they make about a specific group, who do not agree with the opinion of the speaker and tend to blame it on the race of the group, which I believe is a good indicator, like MF's statement about a N driving a porche, IIRC.

[tv]

LOL -- and for goodness sakes, don't write any books or be asked to consult on anything.

Good thing the jury said they didn't consider Mark Fuhrman when they were in the deliberation room. ;)

[William Anthony]

Good thing the jury said they didn't consider Mark Fuhrman when they were in the deliberation room. ;)

Shows their level of sophistication as it related to wasting time considering a soon to be convicted perjurer, imho.

[weezer]

Good thing the jury said they didn't consider Mark Fuhrman when they were in the deliberation room. ;)

lol -- and that LE framed orenthal because he was black -- riiiiight

[tv]

lol -- and that LE framed orenthal because he was black -- riiiiight

When Carrie Bess made her comment I don't know what else she could have meant except race. The jurors had nothing else in common with OJ Simpson -- not money, lifestyle or life experiences. Am I missing anything?

[William Anthony]

When Carrie Bess made her comment I don't know what else she could have meant except race. The jurors had nothing else in common with OJ Simpson -- not money, lifestyle or life experiences. Am I missing anything?

Citizens (one of their own) that were charged with a crime and the prosecution had the obligation to produce evidence that was trustworthy beyond a doubt (they would make certain the prosecution was held to its burden).

[tv]

lol -- and that LE framed orenthal because he was black -- riiiiight

Mark Fuhrman could have arrested Simpson the time he busted out the windshield of the car but he chose not to do that. Wonder why he didn't?

[Kate Sachel]

Mark Fuhrman could have arrested Simpson the time he busted out the windshield of the car but he chose not to do that. Wonder why he didn't?

Because he was yet another member of law enforcement that chose not to do anything about OJ Simpson?

Kate

[weezer]

Because he was yet another member of law enforcement that chose not to do anything about OJ Simpson?

Kate

I remember ron shipp on the stand when orenthal and team were setting about destroying the man's reputation (personal and professional) -- Mr. Shipp looked at orenthal and simply said, "This is sad man." -- I think that pretty well sums up how orenthal used people and what he thought their worth was when he was done.

[tv]

Because he was yet another member of law enforcement that chose not to do anything about OJ Simpson?

Kate

Mark Fuhrman failed Nicole. I wonder how many of those LE officers, including Mark Fuhrman, bear any residual guilt over what ultimately happened to her?

[William Anthony]

Because he was yet another member of law enforcement that chose not to do anything about OJ Simpson?

Kate

What would the charge have been?

[tv]

I remember ron shipp on the stand when orenthal and team were setting about destroying the man's reputation (personal and professional) -- Mr. Shipp looked at orenthal and simply said, "This is sad man." -- I think that pretty well sums up how orenthal used people and what he thought their worth was when he was done.

IMO, there was no one that would have been spared in order to get Simpson an acquittal and that includes Jason Simpson if the case could have been made.

[William Anthony]

Mark Fuhrman failed Nicole. I wonder how many of those LE officers, including Mark Fuhrman, bear any residual guilt over what ultimately happened to her?

I would guess about the same amount of those, who failed to investigate the report of stolen property.

[Kate Sachel]

IMO, there was no one that would have been spared in order to get Simpson an acquittal and that includes Jason Simpson if the case could have been made.

I agree; when it came to the defense of OJ Simpson everyone was thrown under the bus. Suddenly the family he had so little to do with became his advocates and those who had been close to him that chose to share things unfavorable to him were the devil.

Kate

[weezer]

Mark Fuhrman failed Nicole. I wonder how many of those LE officers, including Mark Fuhrman, bear any residual guilt over what ultimately happened to her?

hindsight is 20/20 and I would guess most people who saw the abuse now wish they'd stepped up to the plate. but I don't know that you can put a lot of blame on someone who witnessed a one-time incident and looked the other way for a celebrity. you know who I think was absolutely a snake in the grass when it came to protecting orenthal above everyone else? ac. he knew what orenthal was doing to Nicole for all those years -- heck he even talked about different times -- but did nothing and then did the weepy eye thing at his deposition -- give me a freakin' break.

[tv]

I agree; when it came to the defense of OJ Simpson everyone was thrown under the bus. Suddenly the family he had so little to do with became his advocates and those who had been close to him that chose to share things unfavorable to him were the devil.

Kate

That's true. Either you were with him or against him and the defense appeared on either anyone they felt was a threat or in buiding up their client to be a part of the black community when he really wasn't.

[tv]

hindsight is 20/20 and I would guess most people who saw the abuse now wish they'd stepped up to the plate. but I don't know that you can put a lot of blame on someone who witnessed a one-time incident and looked the other way for a celebrity. you know who I think was absolutely a snake in the grass when it came to protecting orenthal above everyone else? ac. he knew what orenthal was doing to Nicole for all those years -- heck he even talked about different times -- but did nothing and then did the weepy eye thing at his deposition -- give me a freakin' break.

I don't blame them for Nicole and Ron's death but I wish they'd done their jobs instead of giving him a break time after time. It could have made a difference. In the case of AC I think he knows a lot more than he's ever said. He knew that Simpson was abusing Nicole all those years. He might have been the one person who could have had some influence on Simpson but it seems that he didn't advocate for Nicole either. He took her to the hospital but that's about all he did. You never hear his name in connection with his old pal anymore; if he's man enough to distance himself he should have been man enough to tell what he knew.

[William Anthony]

I agree; when it came to the defense of OJ Simpson everyone was thrown under the bus. Suddenly the family he had so little to do with became his advocates and those who had been close to him that chose to share things unfavorable to him were the devil.

Kate

Of which family do you speak?

[William Anthony]

I don't blame them for Nicole and Ron's death but I wish they'd done their jobs instead of giving him a break time after time. It could have made a difference. In the case of AC I think he knows a lot more than he's ever said. He knew that Simpson was abusing Nicole all those years. He might have been the one person who could have had some influence on Simpson but it seems that he didn't advocate for Nicole either. He took her to the hospital but that's about all he did. You never hear his name in connection with his old pal anymore; if he's man enough to distance himself he should have been man enough to tell what he knew.


I don't blame them for Nicole and Ron's death but I wish they'd done their jobs instead of giving him a break time after time. It could have made a difference. Enough said.

[William Anthony]

That's true. Either you were with him or against him and the defense appeared on either anyone they felt was a threat or in buiding up their client to be a part of the black community when he really wasn't.

Ask anyone that knows about Simpson was he Black or Caucasian? I think you may be confusing neighborhood with the larger macrosystem of community.

[weezer]

DIVIDED WE STAND
BY HELEN KENNEDY With News Wire Services

Thursday, October 5th 1995, 4:25AM

Snap polls taken after the O.J. Simpson verdict show a nation bitterly divided.

The bottom line: About half the population thinks the jury's decision was wrong.

The polls also found that confidence in the justice system has soared among blacks but sunk among whites.

Some results:

A CBS survey of 861 adults found 50% said the jury's verdict was wrong and 41% said it was right the exact same numbers as a Los Angeles Times poll. When the responses were broken down racially, 59% of whites disagreed with the verdict while 87% of blacks agreed.

CBS reinterviewed people polled over the weekend and found a jump in the percentage of blacks saying they had confidence in the justice system from 55% to 72%. Among whites there was a slight decline in confidence.

ABC's poll of 612 adults found 51% disagreed with the jury and 42% agreed.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll of 639 adults found 56% disagreed and 33% agreed.

Thirty-four per cent said racial issues determined the verdict, 38% said it was considered by the jury and 22% said it had no effect. Seventythree per cent said Simpson would have been convicted if he wasn't rich.

The Los Angeles Times said 53% of its 807 respondents thought Simpson's defense used the race issue inappropriately, compared to 33% who thought it was well-handled.

A larger majority, 60%, were doubtful that justice had been served. Only 37% were confident that justice had been served.

NBC asked 742 people whether justice was served: 49% said no, 45% said yes.

[weezer]

Review of 35 Fuhrman Cases Reveals No Racism
By GREG KRIKORIAN, TIMES STAFF WRITER
January 19, 1996

For many, the name Mark Fuhrman may be synonymous with racist cops who would risk everything--including their law enforcement careers--to lie or plant evidence. But a limited review of cases handled by the former LAPD detective has found no such allegations of misconduct, according to the Los Angeles County public defender's office.

While cautioning that the just-completed review involved only about 35 cases dating back to 1988, Deputy Public Defender Michael Clark confirmed Thursday that it did not uncover any charges by defendants that Fuhrman lied, planted evidence or engaged in racial slurs.

[weezer]

"I was surprised," said Clark, who conducted the review.

"You can't use this to say Fuhrman is a liar or not a liar or that he plants evidence or doesn't plant evidence," Clark said, noting the limited scope of the review. "[But] I would have thought there would be some allegations . . . [and] they didn't show up."

Fuhrman's conduct as a Los Angeles Police Department officer became a central focus in the O.J. Simpson murder trial when defense attorneys alleged that the veteran detective was a racist who planted evidence to frame Simpson. Those allegations were fueled by taped interviews between Fuhrman and an aspiring screenwriter, recordings where the veteran detective repeatedly used racial epithets and bragged about brutalizing suspects.

Clark said the defender's office began the review of cases handled by Fuhrman as "an afterthought" when it decided to reexamine investigations conducted by two veteran LAPD detectives, Andrew Teague and Charles Markel. In September, the two were suspended for allegedly falsifying evidence in a murder case. Clark said the office's review uncovered sufficient grounds for asking that three or four cases handled by the detectives be reopened.

But the review of Fuhrman's cases--non-homicide felonies ranging from grand theft auto to street robberies--turned up nothing to suggest misconduct, Clark said.

In November, The Times reported that more than half a dozen LAPD officers who worked with Fuhrman, all but one of them black or Latino, said he not only showed no racist attitudes but seemed to get along well with people of all ethnic groups.

In analyzing the public defender's findings, Clark said the review involved only a fraction of the hundreds of cases that would have been handled by Fuhrman during his career. The cases reviewed occurred after 1988. Fuhrman returned to duty in 1984, when his request for early retirement was denied.

Despite its limitations, the review was seen as a vindication of sorts for the LAPD's internal review, Cmdr. Tim McBride said.

Although the LAPD's investigation into Fuhrman's entire career remains two or three months from completion, McBride said, the public defender's report suggests that the department and other agencies charged with reviewing the department's cases are doing their job.

Whether the same can be said about the Teague and Markel cases remains unclear. If the public defender's office moves to reopen cases involving those officers, McBride said, the LAPD will reexamine the work of the detectives.

[tv]

DIVIDED WE STAND
BY HELEN KENNEDY With News Wire Services

Thursday, October 5th 1995, 4:25AM

Snap polls taken after the O.J. Simpson verdict show a nation bitterly divided.

The bottom line: About half the population thinks the jury's decision was wrong.

The polls also found that confidence in the justice system has soared among blacks but sunk among whites.

*snipped*

Interesting polls especially since they were taken soon after the verdict. I was reading some things that Jeanette Harris, one of the dismissed jurors, said after leaving the jury. If it's indicative of how even one of the final jurors felt then the prosecution wouldn't have had a chance even if police and lab procedures had been perfect.

[tv]

How interesting! It looks like Mark Fuhrman was a lot of brag and no fact. Didn't Johnnie Cochran insult jews and holocaust victims by comparing Mark Fuhrman to Hitler?

[weezer]

How interesting! It looks like Mark Fuhrman was a lot of brag and no fact. Didn't Johnnie Cochran insult jews and holocaust victims by comparing Mark Fuhrman to Hitler?

I've just never understood the outrage over Fuhrman -- I mean geez, have you gone to the movies, listened to the music, or sat through a sermon?

[tv]

I've just never understood the outrage over Fuhrman -- I mean geez, have you gone to the movies, listened to the music, or sat through a sermon?
I sure have and those things have been sat through by the one currently in power without a peep. I don't understand the double standard. :shrug:

[GreenIce]

I think the most tragic reality of race in this case is that when it became evidence that blacks and whites saw our justice differently and when countless examples were given why, yet it did not matter.

It appears to me that the generations of mistrust between the races was dismissed and it appeared that the only two cases that mattered on this issue was the Rodney King case and the Simpson case.

[GreenIce]

Originally Posted by fbgweezer
I've never understood the reasoning of the NG's: just because orenthal spent 17 years abusing Nicole, doesn't mean he would murder her but Fuhrman used the n-word in a screenplay and he is the lowest of the low.

Martin,

Using FBG's post--

There is much, much more evidence proofing that MF is a racist, not only on the job but also as a private citizen.

However, there is no where near the same amount of evidence that Simpson abused Nicole.

What G's refuse to acknowledge is that MF terrorized his fellow police officers for what alleged of crimes they committed such as marryng a Jew or a woman wanting to be a police officer.

What also G's refused to acknowledge is that MF had no fear of getting caught, he had no fear of the consequences if he did get caught. If a person does not have fear of the consequences, and knowing they have support, there is no reason for people like MF to change. IMO.

[martin II]

Kate, I might agree with you if Carrie Bess hadn't made the comment 'we have to take care of our own' and if Lionel Cryor hadn't given the black power salute to OJ Simpson as the jury filed out after the verdict. That tells me that their motivation had to do with much more than police mistakes. That was simply the reason they gave for the acquittal, in my opinion.

tv
What you should look at as far as the jury is cooncerned is what they said after deliberations. I have posted one juror giving his explination of what and how they came to their decision.There is no logical reason not to believe them. Jurors like that one 10 blacks, convict blacks in that court room every day and this jury had no special connection with oj.
It seems that because you believe oj was a regular abuser of nicole it follows that he killed her and should have been found guilty.

However this requires you to just totally ignore the reality of the facts of the trial.Your anger should be directed at the prosecution and LE

For personal reasons i do take offence at your frequent attacks on the jury
as there are no facts that would allow you to rationally do so regardless of what 1-2 said in that book. They all voted not guilty.

[martin II]

Good thing the jury said they didn't consider Mark Fuhrman when they were in the deliberation room. ;)

He had already told the court that he was a racist.They didn't need to go over or discuss him.Other testimony supported that he was.

[martin II]

Kate, I might agree with you if Carrie Bess hadn't made the comment 'we have to take care of our own' and if Lionel Cryor hadn't given the black power salute to OJ Simpson as the jury filed out after the verdict. That tells me that their motivation had to do with much more than police mistakes. That was simply the reason they gave for the acquittal, in my opinion.

If you want to hang your hat on some words a jury member wrote in a book. ok. But to refuse the facts that the prosecution did not prove their case as required can leave you with faulty opinions.

[martin II]

I sure have and those things have been sat through by the one currently in power without a peep. I don't understand the double standard. :shrug:

Can you explain?

Nicole was a Blond blue eyed white lady that had been murdered and oj was a black man. That brought race into the trial.
Immediately before the trial 85% of white people said he was guilty. Most blacks thought that again another black celiberty had been charged wrongly. As it turned out
blacks were correct as the prosecution did not have the proof to convict and could not get the jury to do so on what they showed the jury.I don't think that any fair white jury would have convicted on that evidence.
I believe the white people in the poll were reacting to the fact that a white woman was killed and a black man the ex had been arrested. I believe they allowed their bias to enter their opinion when no evidence had been presented.

The Cnn poll
When asked if the jury acted corectly in comming to their verdict the majority said yes

[martin II]

Kate, I might agree with you if Carrie Bess hadn't made the comment 'we have to take care of our own' and if Lionel Cryor hadn't given the black power salute to OJ Simpson as the jury filed out after the verdict. That tells me that their motivation had to do with much more than police mistakes. That was simply the reason they gave for the acquittal, in my opinion.

I think jurors have a right to be pleased when they have prevented a not guilty person from wrongly being convicted. You seem to know what was in the juror mind that made the salute but i know this is not possible. That is just another example of looking under rocks for reasons to attack the jury because you dissagree with the verdict. The salute didn't tell you anything other than he held up his hand.

[GreenIce]

I think jurors have a right to be pleased when they have prevented a not guilty person from wrongly being convicted. You seem to know what was in the juror mind that made the salute but i know this is not possible. That is just another example of looking under rocks for reasons to attack the jury because you dissagree with the verdict. The salute didn't tell you anything other than he held up his hand.

Martin,

I have asked DW to put up a sticky about jury bashing. However, I don't think it will b acted upon. We are the wrong side to ask for that.

Now getting back to the race issue. All the jurors who gave interviews explained themselves. Carrie Bess comment was not about Mr. Simpson's race. It was about protecting each member if the juries. When the jurors were taken out of the courthouse after the verdict as if they were on a military mission. They had to keep their heads down and they were afraid. The learned very quickly that they were hated and it was because of their verdict.

In regards to the raised fist. The juror also explained this, it had nothing to do with a "power salute". Since this juror was a former Black Panther, I seriously doubt he would give this salute to anothe black man that many feel he turned his back on his community. Of course, it was the white media that reported it was a "black power salute".

To be honest, I can't remember the last man I have seen wave to another man or even a woman--unless you are a member of the Royal family or running for office.

This was not a racial verdict, it was the only legal one they could have renendered. IMO. An all white jury would have voted not guilty as well, IMO.

[William Anthony]

How interesting! It looks like Mark Fuhrman was a lot of brag and no fact. Didn't Johnnie Cochran insult jews and holocaust victims by comparing Mark Fuhrman to Hitler?

No, IMHO.

[William Anthony]

If you want to hang your hat on some words a jury member wrote in a book. ok. But to refuse the facts that the prosecution did not prove their case as required can leave you with faulty opinions.

Ditto.

[martin II]

Martin,

I have asked DW to put up a sticky about jury bashing. However, I don't think it will b acted upon. We are the wrong side to ask for that.

Now getting back to the race issue. All the jurors who gave interviews explained themselves. Carrie Bess comment was not about Mr. Simpson's race. It was about protecting each member if the juries. When the jurors were taken out of the courthouse after the verdict as if they were on a military mission. They had to keep their heads down and they were afraid. The learned very quickly that they were hated and it was because of their verdict.

In regards to the raised fist. The juror also explained this, it had nothing to do with a "power salute". Since this juror was a former Black Panther, I seriously doubt he would give this salute to anothe black man that many feel he turned his back on his community. Of course, it was the white media that reported it was a "black power salute".

To be honest, I can't remember the last man I have seen wave to another man or even a woman--unless you are a member of the Royal family or running for office.

This was not a racial verdict, it was the only legal one they could have renendered. IMO. An all white jury would have voted not guilty as well, IMO.

The posters that claim they knew his hand in the air meant some black power
salute for some negative reason are just fishing for reasons to descredit the jury.No one knows what he meant. I don't know if it was the color of the 10 jurors that cause these attacks or ignorance of what beyond a reasonable doubt means.Either way the attacks are uncalled for.The salute could have meant Good Luck.

However if it was a black power salute in the mind of the juror. SO WHAT. He didn't need to get approval from any one to express what ever he was expressing.Nothing wrong with the black power salute anyway.imo

[GreenIce]

The posters that claim they knew his hand in the air meant some black power
salute for some negative reason are just fishing for reasons to descredit the jury.No one knows what he meant. I don't know if it was the color of the 10 jurors that cause these attacks or ignorance of what beyond a reasonable doubt means.Either way the attacks are uncalled for.The salute could have meant Good Luck.

However if it was a black power salute in the mind of the juror. SO WHAT. He didn't need to get approval from any one to express what ever he was expressing.Nothing wrong with the black power salute anyway.imo

Martin,

Mr. Cryer said it was basically a "good luck" gesture. He said that he wanted to convey to Simpson to go get his kids, get on with his life.

I do agree with you that this juror, nor any juror needs anyone's one permission on to express what they are feeling. This is just another example of how far people will go to taint the opinons of the jury. That is MO.

[GreenIce]

No, IMHO.

William,

JC's Hitler reference was another media fiasco. Had people heard the exact context, or should I say had wanted to understand the exact context of what was said, this would not be an issue.

This part of JC's closing was written by Mr. Linder, a Jewish lawyer who lost much his family in the camps.

However, I would love to ask Mr. Goldman and any other person who taken such an outrageous position against JC and this statement. When they heard Kathleen Bell testify about Mark Fuhrman wanting to gather all the n-words and burn them (or bomb them), who did they think of? Was I wrong to think of Hitler because he is the only person that I know of in history that had attempted to do just that and he was quite successful. I don't think 6 million Jews would be considered that shabby in his corner of hell. Sure, Stalin probably likes to rag on him but Stalin killed didn't care who he killed, he really wasn't picky. Again, IMO.

William,

One more point, had Ron Goldman been in the defendant's chair, there is no way his lawyers would have been accused of playing the "Jewish Card". The jury would have heard every single word of those tapes, IMO.

[martin II]

Martin,

Mr. Cryer said it was basically a "good luck" gesture. He said that he wanted to convey to Simpson to go get his kids, get on with his life.

I do agree with you that this juror, nor any juror needs anyone's one permission on to express what they are feeling. This is just another example of how far people will go to taint the opinons of the jury. That is MO.

Some took the verdict personal. Saw themselves as the protector of the victims. Left with the not guilty verdict,Cochran and the defense lawyers were the first unfair target.Then came the outragious attacks on the jury
as if that would change anything.

The complaints against Mr Cryer is total nonsense. It is as if some believe that he did not have the right to give what they call the black power salute
to the defense table. Some may not even know what that salute looks like
but KNOW what was in his mind when he made it and accuse others on mind reading.Dosen't make much sense.

[GreenIce]

Some took the verdict personal. Saw themselves as the protector of the victims. Left with the not guilty verdict,Cochran and the defense lawyers were the first unfair target.Then came the outragious attacks on the jury
as if that would change anything.

The complaints against Mr Cryer is total nonsense. It is as if some believe that he did not have the right to give what they call the black power salute
to the defense table. Some may not even know what that salute looks like
but KNOW what was in his mind when he made it and accuse others on mind reading.Dosen't make much sense.

Martin,

IMO, many people have turned the gesture of Mr. Cryer into the "Heil Hitler" salute, which I know is illegal to do in Germany and I am pretty sure is pretty much frowned upon in most countries. If not, it should be, IMO.

I think it is also important to remember that this was reported by a very white media who were blinded by rage of the verdict. This same media who praised the media, protected Fuhrman during the trial, when some of them wrote books, this all changed. Mainly Jeff Toobin. But of course Mr. Toobin was very uspset that he was blamed for "race card" because of his New Yorker Story and then tried to distance himself. Which never made any sense to me if you read the story.

However, as I have posted many times, you take MF out of this trial, and it changes nothing. If you put in MF and taking out the racism, you still have no explaination how the glove got back there, but you still have a cop who wanted the big case, who still reported to a DV call years ago.

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, many people have turned the gesture of Mr. Cryer into the "Heil Hitler" salute, which I know is illegal to do in Germany and I am pretty sure is pretty much frowned upon in most countries. If not, it should be, IMO.

I think it is also important to remember that this was reported by a very white media who were blinded by rage of the verdict. This same media who praised the media, protected Fuhrman during the trial, when some of them wrote books, this all changed. Mainly Jeff Toobin. But of course Mr. Toobin was very uspset that he was blamed for "race card" because of his New Yorker Story and then tried to distance himself. Which never made any sense to me if you read the story.

However, as I have posted many times, you take MF out of this trial, and it changes nothing. If you put in MF and taking out the racism, you still have no explaination how the glove got back there, but you still have a cop who wanted the big case, who still reported to a DV call years ago.

That may be what the jury thought. Forget MF. We know who he is. We know he found the glove now tell us how the glove got in the walkwayl.
Prove that oj was there and dropped that glove and don't give us what you think.Put oj in the walkway with evidence.
The prosecution, Furhman and Vanhatter had different opinions on this issue but the common thread was NO ONE was able to prove how the glove got there.Then Parks testimony proved oj was in his house when the murders happened. I don't see how some can ignore this.

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, many people have turned the gesture of Mr. Cryer into the "Heil Hitler" salute, which I know is illegal to do in Germany and I am pretty sure is pretty much frowned upon in most countries. If not, it should be, IMO.

I think it is also important to remember that this was reported by a very white media who were blinded by rage of the verdict. This same media who praised the media, protected Fuhrman during the trial, when some of them wrote books, this all changed. Mainly Jeff Toobin. But of course Mr. Toobin was very uspset that he was blamed for "race card" because of his New Yorker Story and then tried to distance himself. Which never made any sense to me if you read the story.

However, as I have posted many times, you take MF out of this trial, and it changes nothing. If you put in MF and taking out the racism, you still have no explaination how the glove got back there, but you still have a cop who wanted the big case, who still reported to a DV call years ago.


i think Toobin tried to short circuit what he thought the defense would do.He wanted to get out front as a insider so he wrote the Times article which gave him some time on tv discussing the case. If Toobin knew about MF why did he write what the defense was going to do instead of writing about MF the racist.Toobin may have been trying to soften the MF blow to the case.

[martin II]

Martin,

Mr. Cryer said it was basically a "good luck" gesture. He said that he wanted to convey to Simpson to go get his kids, get on with his life.

I do agree with you that this juror, nor any juror needs anyone's one permission on to express what they are feeling. This is just another example of how far people will go to taint the opinons of the jury. That is MO.

People attack Cryer for his salute while Fred Goldman stood on the court house steps directing vile language at the defense team and oj.That was just fine. He should have been attacking the prosecution.Darden evaded any critical comments directed at him by pulling off that crying act in the press conferance.

[GreenIce]

That may be what the jury thought. Forget MF. We know who he is. We know he found the glove now tell us how the glove got in the walkwayl.
Prove that oj was there and dropped that glove and don't give us what you think.Put oj in the walkway with evidence.
The prosecution, Furhman and Vanhatter had different opinions on this issue but the common thread was NO ONE was able to prove how the glove got there.Then Parks testimony proved oj was in his house when the murders happened. I don't see how some can ignore this.

Martin,

Good point, we know who and what MF is.

FYI, Hank Goldberg in his book felt that the DA's should not focus on how the glove got there, only who's blood was found on it, that was the only thing that mattered.

In his his book, he makes it clear, there was no mixture of Simpson's, Nicole's or Goldman's blood. Simpson's blood was found on one spot only.

[GreenIce]

i think Toobin tried to short circuit what he thought the defense would do.He wanted to get out front as a insider so he wrote the Times article which gave him some time on tv discussing the case. If Toobin knew about MF why did he write what the defense was going to do instead of writing about MF the racist.Toobin may have been trying to soften the MF blow to the case.

Martin,

Jeff Toobin was the first member of the media to discover MF's disability claim. He talked to Robert Shapiro about it and then his story came out in the New Yorker. Clearly Toobin said the defense was going to claim that a racist cop planted the glove and when I read that story. I really thought that Simpson was guilty and that the defense was in trouble. They were desperate.

This was well before MF testified in the criminial trial, long before we knew about other citizens coming forward. Long before we knew of him bragging on the tapes of him being the most important witness in the case and that if he went down, the glove went down and the case goes bye-bye--and that Clark knew it.

IMO, he predicted what did in fact happen. He did go down, the glove went down and so did the other pieces of evidence because of him. If anyone had any doubts about MF, then Clark cleared them up in her closing arguments and she never says that they proved that he did not plant the glove. IMO, she was asking the jury to put MF off to the side, take the glove and his role out of the case and focus on the other evidence. Big mistake on her part because I think the magic blood on key pieces of evidence hurt her case even more then the glove, IMO.

[William Anthony]

William,

JC's Hitler reference was another media fiasco. Had people heard the exact context, or should I say had wanted to understand the exact context of what was said, this would not be an issue.

This part of JC's closing was written by Mr. Linder, a Jewish lawyer who lost much his family in the camps.

However, I would love to ask Mr. Goldman and any other person who taken such an outrageous position against JC and this statement. When they heard Kathleen Bell testify about Mark Fuhrman wanting to gather all the n-words and burn them (or bomb them), who did they think of? Was I wrong to think of Hitler because he is the only person that I know of in history that had attempted to do just that and he was quite successful. I don't think 6 million Jews would be considered that shabby in his corner of hell. Sure, Stalin probably likes to rag on him but Stalin killed didn't care who he killed, he really wasn't picky. Again, IMO.

William,

One more point, had Ron Goldman been in the defendant's chair, there is no way his lawyers would have been accused of playing the "Jewish Card". The jury would have heard every single word of those tapes, IMO.

People can easily find things offensive, if they are actively offensively looking for something, IMHO, even if their position is irrational ans not supported by history.

[tv]

I guess it was okay for the defense to bash the white juror --

Page 419 - 420 THE RUN FOR HIS LIFE -- Jeffrey Toobin

The defense team held weekly meetings around a big table in Cochran's suite of offices. At these conclaves, Cochran would often take on the persona of a preacher and declaim in mock solemnity about each lawyer's assigment. One day near the end of the case, Cochran was telling Bailey his plans for how they were going to win. "I will bring the brothers and sisters to the table of acquittal," he told Bailey, "but you, sir, are responsible for the Demon."

The Demon was the defense team's nickname for juror number three, Anise Aschenbach, a sixty-year-old woman who was one of only two whites on the panel.

...the admonition to Bailey illustrated how Johnnie Cochran saw his role in the case. He would take care of the nine black jurors - the brothers and sisters - and one of the white lawyers could handle the rest.

[GreenIce]

William and Martin,

I have just read TV's post about what was written in Toobin's book. Do either you know what point she is trying to make? Hasn't it already been established that it was wise and only natural that both the defense and the DA's have a black lawyer present? That both should play a major role in the trial?

I am trying to understand what "evil" was done by either side in this regard. IMO, it is very obvious that blacks and whites looked at our legal system very differently long before the Simpson case. Why should anyone be surprised when black lawyers joined each team?

[GreenIce]

People can easily find things offensive, if they are actively offensively looking for something, IMHO, even if their position is irrational ans not supported by history.

William,

I agree with you completely on this. If you want to see it, you will and nothing, not even the facts get in the way. IMO.

[William Anthony]

I guess it was okay for the defense to bash the white juror --

Page 419 - 420 THE RUN FOR HIS LIFE -- Jeffrey Toobin

The defense team held weekly meetings around a big table in Cochran's suite of offices. At these conclaves, Cochran would often take on the persona of a preacher and declaim in mock solemnity about each lawyer's assigment. One day near the end of the case, Cochran was telling Bailey his plans for how they were going to win. "I will bring the brothers and sisters to the table of acquittal," he told Bailey, "but you, sir, are responsible for the Demon."

The Demon was the defense team's nickname for juror number three, Anise Aschenbach, a sixty-year-old woman who was one of only two whites on the panel.

...the admonition to Bailey illustrated how Johnnie Cochran saw his role in the case. He would take care of the nine black jurors - the brothers and sisters - and one of the white lawyers could handle the rest.

It is a character of human nature, or perhaps a flaw, imho, that people identify and find more credible those most like themselves. With that said the magnificent one realized the emotional toll that this case had on the participants and found humor as a means of relieving stress, imho, as the author states, "Cochran would often take on the persona of a preacher and declaim in mock solemnity about each lawyer's assigment."

[William Anthony]

William and Martin,

I have just read TV's post about what was written in Toobin's book. Do either you know what point she is trying to make? Hasn't it already been established that it was wise and only natural that both the defense and the DA's have a black lawyer present? That both should play a major role in the trial?

I am trying to understand what "evil" was done by either side in this regard. IMO, it is very obvious that blacks and whites looked at our legal system very differently long before the Simpson case. Why should anyone be surprised when black lawyers joined each team?

American History, :).

[GreenIce]

It is a character of human nature, or perhaps a flaw, imho, that people identify and find more credible those most like themselves. With that said the magnificent one realized the emotional toll that this case had on the participants and found humor as a means of relieving stress, imho, as the author states, "Cochran would often take on the persona of a preacher and declaim in mock solemnity about each lawyer's assigment."

William,

And yet, Toobin took this as a crime against humanity. But still went to the mat to protect MF. How strange is that?

[tv]

The defense referred to the detectives as 'twin devils' of deception and one of the white jurrors as 'The Demon'. They accused the prosection of bringing race into the trial yet they used racial slurs to refer to members of LE and one of the jurors. Why was this okay? :shrug:

[William Anthony]

William,

And yet, Toobin took this as a crime against humanity. But still went to the mat to protect MF. How strange is that?

Very, very, very, very, very, very.

[William Anthony]

The defense referred to the detectives as 'twin devils' of deception and one of the white jurrors as 'The Demon'. They accused the prosection of bringing race into the trial yet they used racial slurs to refer to members of LE and one of the jurors. Why was this okay? :shrug:

Can you point to where in the trial transcripts the terms twin devils of deception and demon were used, please?

[weezer]

The defense referred to the detectives as 'twin devils' of deception and one of the white jurrors as 'The Demon'. They accused the prosection of bringing race into the trial yet they used racial slurs to refer to members of LE and one of the jurors. Why was this okay? :shrug:

good example of the double standard and double talk that's prevalent within society. We were introduced to this during the simpson trial and continue to learn right up to and including jeremiah wright -- and, of course, this board.

[martin II]

I guess it was okay for the defense to bash the white juror --

Page 419 - 420 THE RUN FOR HIS LIFE -- Jeffrey Toobin

The defense team held weekly meetings around a big table in Cochran's suite of offices. At these conclaves, Cochran would often take on the persona of a preacher and declaim in mock solemnity about each lawyer's assigment. One day near the end of the case, Cochran was telling Bailey his plans for how they were going to win. "I will bring the brothers and sisters to the table of acquittal," he told Bailey, "but you, sir, are responsible for the Demon."

The Demon was the defense team's nickname for juror number three, Anise Aschenbach, a sixty-year-old woman who was one of only two whites on the panel.

...the admonition to Bailey illustrated how Johnnie Cochran saw his role in the case. He would take care of the nine black jurors - the brothers and sisters - and one of the white lawyers could handle the rest.

Can you prove Toobin was in the meeting. Cochran did not give him the minutes of the meeting. if not he made the above up like he did other claims.

[martin II]

Can you point to where in the trial transcripts the terms twin devils of deception and demon were used, please?

You will not get a link to something somebody just made up. Digging under rocks to discredit Cochran just means that he did his job well.

[martin II]

The jury thought the prosecution played the race card when they pulled Darden to their table.There were many more qualified prosecutors available
but they selected Darden.It was as if they were saying "see we are not racist
we have a black prosecutor" That was the race card.

Clark told Darden you take care of the 10 blacks and i will take the two whites.

[martin II]

I think the most tragic reality of race in this case is that when it became evidence that blacks and whites saw our justice differently and when countless examples were given why, yet it did not matter.

It appears to me that the generations of mistrust between the races was dismissed and it appeared that the only two cases that mattered on this issue was the Rodney King case and the Simpson case.

Whites always believe in their CJS. "Give oj a trial if he is guilty he goes to jail""if he is not guilty he goes free"
The prosecutioon told the world they had a mountain of evidence and most expected a conviction including fred.

That confidence in the system worked very well until the Not Guilty verdict was handed down. Then everything changed.They tried to change the rules.
This started the racist attacks on the defense team the jury and anyone else
that had anything to do with the verdict.Some even suggested that we should trash the CJS completely.

The prosecution did a diservice to fred by instilling in him the idea that the trial was a slam dunk. They should have explained to him the risk of a trial.

Meeting with them and accepting their view of the slam dunk he was sure he would get a guilty verdict.

[William Anthony]

good example of the double standard and double talk that's prevalent within society. We were introduced to this during the simpson trial and continue to learn right up to and including jeremiah wright -- and, of course, this board.

I think the Reverend Wright pointed out the double standards in which America operated. The Reverend may have done it in a more diplomatic manner but he did not have the tact shown by President Obama and, according to the Reverend, his words came from a higher authority.

[William Anthony]

You will not get a link to something somebody just made up. Digging under rocks to discredit Cochran just means that he did his job well.

Unfortunately for some, the magnificent one did not go on the stand to answer whether or not he had used the words devil or demons in regard to Caucasians in the last ten years but we know what happened when MF took the stand and was asked about the N-word. Since when did Reverend Wright become a part of any of the Simpson cases? However, I am not opposed to discussing him.

[GreenIce]

The jury thought the prosecution played the race card when they pulled Darden to their table.There were many more qualified prosecutors available
but they selected Darden.It was as if they were saying "see we are not racist
we have a black prosecutor" That was the race card.

Clark told Darden you take care of the 10 blacks and i will take the two whites.

Martin,

I was very surprised to hear that a few jurors did feel that Darden was only put on the team because he was black. IMO, I think it was a wise move by the DA's to have black lawyer on the team. I think Darden's working the AC grand jury also added to his appeal.

However, I do wonder if other black DA's were approached and they wanted nothing to do with the case. Maybe Darden was the only one who was willing to sit second chair.

I shutter to think what would have happened had MF remained Darden's witness. I will say one thing for Darden, he did know the jurors would not believe MF or Vanatter. IMO.

[William Anthony]

To add more fuel to the fire, Johnnie Cochran had the Nation of Islam members for body guards. It's their leader, Louis Farrakhan, that revels in calling white people 'white devils' and the 'skunk of the earth'. For Johnnie Cochran to embrace that philosophy makes him the R-word, in my opinion. ;)

Freedom to contract and association are privileges guaranteed by the Constitution. I do not think that to hire some group for a particular purpose, which you think that group is best qualified to provide, means that you adopt every word of the group's leader and those, who promote such a view, have a limited understanding of a person's rights and have committed a rush to judgment.

[GreenIce]

The posters that claim they knew his hand in the air meant some black power
salute for some negative reason are just fishing for reasons to descredit the jury.No one knows what he meant. I don't know if it was the color of the 10 jurors that cause these attacks or ignorance of what beyond a reasonable doubt means.Either way the attacks are uncalled for.The salute could have meant Good Luck.

However if it was a black power salute in the mind of the juror. SO WHAT. He didn't need to get approval from any one to express what ever he was expressing.Nothing wrong with the black power salute anyway.imo

Martin,

I have been reading the jurors' book and I never realized that Simpson has in fact made a wave like gesture to the jury, apparently to thank them for their verdict. This may have been when Mr. Cryer returned a gesture.

[GreenIce]

Freedom to contract and association are privileges guaranteed by the Constitution. I do not think that to hire some group for a particular purpose, which you think that group is best qualified to provide, means that you adopt every word of the group's leader and those, who promote such a view, have a limited understanding of a person's rights and have committed a rush to judgment.

William,

Isn't the real issue that all the lawyers in this case were threatened? That they and their families need security and body guards? Isn't it also a fair question to ask why would Cochran would have to hire a private security detail when the police apparently would not provide security for him and his family?

Also, isn't if fair to say that Louis Farrakan was not a state employee and did not take an oath to serve and protect?

[William Anthony]

William,

Isn't the real issue that all the lawyers in this case were threatened? That they and their families need security and body guards? Isn't it also a fair question to ask why would Cochran would have to hire a private security detail when the police apparently would not provide security for him and his family?

Also, isn't if fair to say that Louis Farrakan was not a state employee and did not take an oath to serve and protect?

There seems to be a lot of side issues that have nothing to do with race in the case.

[GreenIce]

There seems to be a lot of side issues that have nothing to do with race in the case.

William,

I agree.

[tv]

good example of the double standard and double talk that's prevalent within society. We were introduced to this during the simpson trial and continue to learn right up to and including jeremiah wright -- and, of course, this board.

IMO, Johnnie Cochran's use of the words devil and demon was to send a message to the jury -- to make sure that the idea that LE was out to frame a black celebrity was firmly planted in the minds of the jurors.

[martin II]

To add more fuel to the fire, Johnnie Cochran had the Nation of Islam members for body guards. It's their leader, Louis Farrakhan, that revels in calling white people 'white devils' and the 'skunk of the earth'. For Johnnie Cochran to embrace that philosophy makes him the R-word, in my opinion. ;)

The nation of islam is one of the best security organizations in the minority community. That is why they have contracts for security with many public housing projects in America paid for by the u.s government.
Cochran didn't have to embrace their religious views or support Farakhams PREVIOUS VEWS to hire a security firm that was well qualified to do this work.
They were trusted to do the job and they did.

ps Farakhan has long changed his views on jews and white people and made this clear to them in direct talks to them and the public.imo

The u.s government has no problem with them so i don't see what you beef is about.

i think you are misinformed on this issue.

[martin II]

IMO, Johnnie Cochran's use of the words devil and demon was to send a message to the jury -- to make sure that the idea that LE was out to frame a black celebrity was firmly planted in the minds of the jurors.

I think the actions of vanhatter and lang could cause them to be called devils.

They also were deceptive in their testimony.

i don't believe the word devil is related to race.

[GreenIce]

I think the actions of vanhatter and lang could cause them to be called devils.

They also were deceptive in their testimony.

i don't believe the word devil is related to race.

Martin,

Martin, Martin, Martin, don't you know the truth about the Simpson case? It will never go down in history as a legal case, it will always go down in history as a medical case!

Haven't you seen proof on how so many white people got in touch with their inner-African American self and felt they were experts at being black, knew exactly what is is like to be black in America, know what is is like to be married to be black a person and that is why they makes the posts they do?

Don't you know that every one of them feel they are able to judge to OJ Simpson because at one time they were black and when they married a white person and lived in the white world and had children that could pass for white, they feel they are able to talk about their brother, OJ Simpson? They have walked his shoes, they know everything there is to know about being black---don't you know that?:)

Heck Martin, they have walked in yours!

[GreenIce]

i think you are misinformed on this issue.

Martin,

You are very kind, to limit it to one issue. And I agree with your post. However, I still think it is a shame that any of the lawyers were threatened and that their familes lived in fear.

Again, IMO, the bigger picture is missed---I would just truly love to know if it is being done on purpose. In many ways, I hope it is.

[weezer]

IMO, Johnnie Cochran's use of the words devil and demon was to send a message to the jury -- to make sure that the idea that LE was out to frame a black celebrity was firmly planted in the minds of the jurors.

exactly! and it worked. . .:cuss::flamemad:

[William Anthony]

exactly! and it worked. . .:cuss::flamemad:

I vehemently disagree as the prosecution failed miserably to meet its burden of proof. However, even giving you and tvdinner the benefit of the doubt, there is ample historical evidence that the citizens could have felt that way.
Where there is smoke, there is fire.

[William Anthony]

Martin,

Martin, Martin, Martin, don't you know the truth about the Simpson case? It will never go down in history as a legal case, it will always go down in history as a medical case!

Haven't you seen proof on how so many white people got in touch with their inner-African American self and felt they were experts at being black, knew exactly what is is like to be black in America, know what is is like to be married to be black a person and that is why they makes the posts they do?

Don't you know that every one of them feel they are able to judge to OJ Simpson because at one time they were black and when they married a white person and lived in the white world and had children that could pass for white, they feel they are able to talk about their brother, OJ Simpson? They have walked his shoes, they know everything there is to know about being black---don't you know that?:)

Heck Martin, they have walked in yours!

Are you speaking of a sense of entitlement?:)

[William Anthony]

IMO, Johnnie Cochran's use of the words devil and demon was to send a message to the jury -- to make sure that the idea that LE was out to frame a black celebrity was firmly planted in the minds of the jurors.

I thought I asked for a link to where the magnificent one used the words devil and demon in front of the jury.

[tv]

exactly! and it worked. . .:cuss::flamemad:

The system had been put on trial continually since 1967, most recently in the riot following the Rodney King verdict, and Cochran saw that it could be put on trial again in what, on the surface, was a less promising case even than Geronimo Pratt's. He knew the race card would trump the prosecution's full house of evidence. "Send a message," he urged the jury by the time he came to his summation—not "Seek the truth" or "Make justice prevail," but do the right thing and "send a message" to the system and to the LAPD, which is the system's most visible and most disgusting symbol. And Lionel Cryer's black-power salute showed that the message—"It's payback time"—had gotten through. That this message hit home outside the courtroom could be seen in the representative reaction of Benny Davis, a black store owner in Los Angeles, who said after the verdict was announced, "Yeah, he did it. About time a brother got away with something around here."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22654

[weezer]

To add more fuel to the fire, Johnnie Cochran had the Nation of Islam members for body guards. It's their leader, Louis Farrakhan, that revels in calling white people 'white devils' and the 'skunk of the earth'. For Johnnie Cochran to embrace that philosophy makes him the R-word, in my opinion. ;)

". . .In his closing remarks, Cochran told the jury that Vannatter and Fuhrman were the "twin devils of deception. . ."

"As Farrakhan has said, "You (white people) are the devil... you are nothing but the devil in the plainest language. . ."
YouTube - Farrakhan: Whites are the Devil

[tv]

". . .In his closing remarks, Cochran told the jury that Vannatter and Fuhrman were the "twin devils of deception. . ."

"As Farrakhan has said, "You (white people) are the devil... you are nothing but the devil in the plainest language. . ."
YouTube - Farrakhan: Whites are the Devil

Thanks, weezer. Fuhrman's use of racial slurs was nearly ten years removed and yet the defense was able to use them in the trial while Johnnie Cochran used racial slurs against LE in front of the jury, the court and the world and no one made a peep.

[William Anthony]

The system had been put on trial continually since 1967, most recently in the riot following the Rodney King verdict, and Cochran saw that it could be put on trial again in what, on the surface, was a less promising case even than Geronimo Pratt's. He knew the race card would trump the prosecution's full house of evidence. "Send a message," he urged the jury by the time he came to his summation—not "Seek the truth" or "Make justice prevail," but do the right thing and "send a message" to the system and to the LAPD, which is the system's most visible and most disgusting symbol. And Lionel Cryer's black-power salute showed that the message—"It's payback time"—had gotten through. That this message hit home outside the courtroom could be seen in the representative reaction of Benny Davis, a black store owner in Los Angeles, who said after the verdict was announced, "Yeah, he did it. About time a brother got away with something around here."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22654

A completely unbiased and credible source.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200503160001

[William Anthony]

Thanks, weezer. Fuhrman's use of racial slurs was nearly ten years removed and yet the defense was able to use them in the trial while Johnnie Cochran used racial slurs against LE in front of the jury, the court and the world and no one made a peep.

Notice that the magnificent one alluded to the oath to protect and serve, which does not have a qualifier, stating that after nine years the oath is no longer valid. Also, notice that the magnificent one related the twin devil of deception remark to lying. I think if he wanted to relate it to race, he could have used the saying of Native Americans about forked-tongues. I think we all know that regardless of the color the devil manifests himself he is the master of deception through lies. Thanks, as I was able to find the comment and place it IN CONTEXT and not arbitrarily place a sinister meaning to it.

"This is this man who is out there protecting and serving. That is Mark Fuhrman. And he is paired in this case with Phil Vannatter. They are both beacons that you look at and look to as the messengers that you must look through and pass. They are both people who have shown that they lie, will lie, did lie on the stand under oath. And you know, one little parenthetical thing how these people all try to stick together from the standpoint of law enforcement. The FBI agent come in here and he talks about--when I bring out the facts he says that Vannatter says they are not there to save lives. On cross-examination, he says, well, I think he was being sarcastic, Vannatter was being sarcastic or maybe it was a joke. But you know, when I listened to that, I thought about that, I said, well, what is the joke? What is the sarcasm? Is the constitution this man's rights to be safe and secure in his home? Is that the joke? Is that the sarcasm? Sad state of affairs. That is the lead detective I'm talking about, these two twin devils of deception. You think about it and keep them in mind. "

[martin II]

Thanks, weezer. Fuhrman's use of racial slurs was nearly ten years removed and yet the defense was able to use them in the trial while Johnnie Cochran used racial slurs against LE in front of the jury, the court and the world and no one made a peep.

So i guess you think Farakhan is responsible for the not guilty verdict.Thats funny.
Seems like you are looking for anyting to discredit the jury.I don't think the jury was thinking about Farakhan during deliberations.

[martin II]

Notice that the magnificent one alluded to the oath to protect and serve, which does not have a qualifier, stating that after nine years the oath is no longer valid. Also, notice that the magnificent one related the twin devil of deception remark to lying. I think if he wanted to relate it to race, he could have used the saying of Native Americans about forked-tongues. I think we all know that regardless of the color the devil manifests himself he is the master of deception through lies. Thanks, as I was able to find the comment and place it IN CONTEXT and not arbitrarily place a sinister meaning to it.

"This is this man who is out there protecting and serving. That is Mark Fuhrman. And he is paired in this case with Phil Vannatter. They are both beacons that you look at and look to as the messengers that you must look through and pass. They are both people who have shown that they lie, will lie, did lie on the stand under oath. And you know, one little parenthetical thing how these people all try to stick together from the standpoint of law enforcement. The FBI agent come in here and he talks about--when I bring out the facts he says that Vannatter says they are not there to save lives. On cross-examination, he says, well, I think he was being sarcastic, Vannatter was being sarcastic or maybe it was a joke. But you know, when I listened to that, I thought about that, I said, well, what is the joke? What is the sarcasm? Is the constitution this man's rights to be safe and secure in his home? Is that the joke? Is that the sarcasm? Sad state of affairs. That is the lead detective I'm talking about, these two twin devils of deception. You think about it and keep them in mind. "

William
Thanks for the correct contex.But i don't think it will correct the misunderstanding of how he used the word devil.But then if one is looking to be critical of Cochran, accuracy may not be a concern.

It seems that some that want to interject race into the issue believes the word devil = race.

[martin II]

Thanks, weezer. Fuhrman's use of racial slurs was nearly ten years removed and yet the defense was able to use them in the trial while Johnnie Cochran used racial slurs against LE in front of the jury, the court and the world and no one made a peep.

Furhman used the n word through his whole career.He stated this in his efforts to get early retirement and in front of people at least twice. But you seem to be willing to say he only used it once in ten years.

[tv]

". . .In his closing remarks, Cochran told the jury that Vannatter and Fuhrman were the "twin devils of deception. . ."

"As Farrakhan has said, "You (white people) are the devil... you are nothing but the devil in the plainest language. . ."
YouTube - Farrakhan: Whites are the Devil

It's well known that 'devil' is a derogatory term for whites. Of course, Johnnie Cochran knew this and the choice of this word was very calculated on his part. There are other words he could have used but this particular word conveyed the message that he wanted to send. If he had wanted to avoid offending anyone or sending a racial message he could have easily used different wording.

[martin II]

Martin,

Martin, Martin, Martin, don't you know the truth about the Simpson case? It will never go down in history as a legal case, it will always go down in history as a medical case!

Haven't you seen proof on how so many white people got in touch with their inner-African American self and felt they were experts at being black, knew exactly what is is like to be black in America, know what is is like to be married to be black a person and that is why they makes the posts they do?

Don't you know that every one of them feel they are able to judge to OJ Simpson because at one time they were black and when they married a white person and lived in the white world and had children that could pass for white, they feel they are able to talk about their brother, OJ Simpson? They have walked his shoes, they know everything there is to know about being black---don't you know that?:)

Heck Martin, they have walked in yours!


i know. Even those that are against everything that is positive for blacks and other minorities. It may be the 10% of black blood that some say everyone has.

[martin II]

It's well known that 'devil' is a derogatory term for whites. Of course, Johnnie Cochran knew this and the choice of this word was very calculated on his part. There are other words he could have used but this particular word conveyed the message that he wanted to send. If he had wanted to avoid offending anyone or sending a racial message he could have easily used different wording.

It seems you may need some help with the meaning of the word devil.So here it is.I see no referance to race.


Main Entry: 1dev·il
Pronunciation: \ˈde-vəl dialect ˈdi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English devel, from Old English dēofol, from Late Latin diabolus, from Greek diabolos, literally, slanderer, from diaballein to throw across, slander, from dia- + ballein to throw; probably akin to Sanskrit gurate he lifts up
Date: before 12th century
1 often capitalized : the personal supreme spirit of evil often represented in Jewish and Christian belief as the tempter of humankind, the leader of all apostate angels, and the ruler of hell —usually used with the —often used as an interjection, an intensive, or a generalized term of abuse <what the devil is this?><the devil you say!>
2 : an evil spirit : demon
3 a : an extremely wicked person : fiend b archaic : a great evil

[martin II]

The system had been put on trial continually since 1967, most recently in the riot following the Rodney King verdict, and Cochran saw that it could be put on trial again in what, on the surface, was a less promising case even than Geronimo Pratt's. He knew the race card would trump the prosecution's full house of evidence. "Send a message," he urged the jury by the time he came to his summation—not "Seek the truth" or "Make justice prevail," but do the right thing and "send a message" to the system and to the LAPD, which is the system's most visible and most disgusting symbol. And Lionel Cryer's black-power salute showed that the message—"It's payback time"—had gotten through. That this message hit home outside the courtroom could be seen in the representative reaction of Benny Davis, a black store owner in Los Angeles, who said after the verdict was announced, "Yeah, he did it. About time a brother got away with something around here."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=22654

This is a very biased link you gave by someone.
The system was not put on trial. the charges against oj were as they should be otherwise we all could end up in jail.I don't think even you would like a system where the prosecutions charges were not attacked.

You seem to be constantly looking around for quotes by black people that support your position on various issues.Blacks are about 10% of the total population and you can find all kinds of opinions from some in this group.Quotes by 3-4 black people that may have expressed the idea that oj was guilty means no more than quotes by some whites that also think he was guilty. So you found a black man here and a black women there that said oj did it. This means what.I know.That every black person did not believe he was not guilty.Everyone already knows that.And what does it mean that you found some that spoke what they thought.Their opinions don't overule the jury.

[martin II]

It's well known that 'devil' is a derogatory term for whites. Of course, Johnnie Cochran knew this and the choice of this word was very calculated on his part. There are other words he could have used but this particular word conveyed the message that he wanted to send. If he had wanted to avoid offending anyone or sending a racial message he could have easily used different wording.

There are many words to describe racist. devil is not one that most people use.Are you suggesting that he should have used Bubba or somem other slang. Devil as it relates to evil was a good one esecially since he was talking about Vanhatter and others.
Now that you have seen the proper contex as posted by william, does that help you to understand?

[tv]

Why in the world was Rosa Parks invited to sit in on the trial by Johnnie Cochran?? IMO, no one made this a trial about race more than Cochran himself. Outrageous.

[William Anthony]

William
Thanks for the correct contex.But i don't think it will correct the misunderstanding of how he used the word devil.But then if one is looking to be critical of Cochran, accuracy may not be a concern.

It seems that some that want to interject race into the issue believes the word devil = race.

It is a stretch to say that, because the magnificent one hired members of the Nation of Islam to be his bodyguards, the magnificent one somehow is calling Caucasians devils.:)

[William Anthony]

It's well known that 'devil' is a derogatory term for whites. Of course, Johnnie Cochran knew this and the choice of this word was very calculated on his part. There are other words he could have used but this particular word conveyed the message that he wanted to send. If he had wanted to avoid offending anyone or sending a racial message he could have easily used different wording.

I think that your argument would have been much stronger, if the magnificent one said the two spoke with forked-tongues, as it is attributed to Native Americans as saying pale face speak with forked tongue.

[William Anthony]

Why in the world was Rosa Parks invited to sit in on the trial by Johnnie Cochran?? IMO, no one made this a trial about race more than Cochran himself. Outrageous.

Perhaps, because trials are open to the public.

[tv]

some more of cockroach's antics that some find so brilliant. unless as suspected, the jury was getting news through their family visits, the only other reason I can imagine is that cockroach was reaching out to the black community for support. :shrug:

IMO, he thought the presence of Rosa Parks would impress the jury. Unless he just wanted her to hear rhetoric firsthand. What an honor! :rolleyes:Ms. Parks declined throught a spokesperson. I do believe that the jury was getting information through their family visits. Also, Jeanette Harris, a dismissed juror claimed the jurors were discussing the case between themselves.

[martin II]

I think that your argument would have been much stronger, if the magnificent one said the two spoke with forked-tongues, as it is attributed to Native Americans as saying pale face speak with forked tongue.

Maby the native Anmericans had heard of Furhman when they coined that word. They were usually correct when describing the white man then.

[martin II]

IMO, he thought the presence of Rosa Parks would impress the jury. Unless he just wanted her to hear rhetoric firsthand. What an honor! :rolleyes:Ms. Parks declined throught a spokesperson. I do believe that the jury was getting information through their family visits. Also, Jeanette Harris, a dismissed juror claimed the jurors were discussing the case between themselves.

ITO found that j harris lied and she was sent home.

[martin II]

IMO, he thought the presence of Rosa Parks would impress the jury. Unless he just wanted her to hear rhetoric firsthand. What an honor! :rolleyes:Ms. Parks declined throught a spokesperson. I do believe that the jury was getting information through their family visits. Also, Jeanette Harris, a dismissed juror claimed the jurors were discussing the case between themselves.

Now the jury family members are responsible for the not guilty verdict.Whose next the hot dog vender in front of the court house.

[martin II]

It is a stretch to say that, because the magnificent one hired members of the Nation of Islam to be his bodyguards, the magnificent one somehow is calling Caucasians devils.:)

When white lawyers hire white security firms are they saying something other than i need security?

[martin II]

some more of cockroach's antics that some find so brilliant. unless as suspected, the jury was getting news through their family visits, the only other reason I can imagine is that cockroach was reaching out to the black community for support. :shrug:

A hispanic lady is in the court room and the jury understood what?

[martin II]

Why in the world was Rosa Parks invited to sit in on the trial by Johnnie Cochran?? IMO, no one made this a trial about race more than Cochran himself. Outrageous.

When it was discovered that a white blond blue eyed woman had been killed and a black man was suspected of killing her, Race entered the case.The media made sure it was there to stay.

[martin II]

IMO, he thought the presence of Rosa Parks would impress the jury. Unless he just wanted her to hear rhetoric firsthand. What an honor! :rolleyes:Ms. Parks declined throught a spokesperson. I do believe that the jury was getting information through their family visits. Also, Jeanette Harris, a dismissed juror claimed the jurors were discussing the case between themselves.

Doing some mind reading i guess. You seem to always know what was in Cochrans mind.Care to explain this gift?

[martin II]

IMO, Johnnie Cochran's use of the words devil and demon was to send a message to the jury -- to make sure that the idea that LE was out to frame a black celebrity was firmly planted in the minds of the jurors.

calling vanhatter devil is not as strong as "they are out to frame a innocent man" he did say that.

[William Anthony]

When white lawyers hire white security firms are they saying something other than i need security?

Why of course, they are bringing race into the situation. :)

[William Anthony]

some more of cockroach's antics that some find so brilliant. unless as suspected, the jury was getting news through their family visits, the only other reason I can imagine is that cockroach was reaching out to the black community for support. :shrug:

Perhaps, you and tvdinner should read this, noting the relationship between the magnificent one and Ms.Parks, although it may not change your prejudged conclusions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/johnnie-cochran-lawyer

[William Anthony]

Maby the native Anmericans had heard of Furhman when they coined that word. They were usually correct when describing the white man then.

Maybe, they dealt with some of his ancestors. :)

[weezer]

Why in the world was Rosa Parks invited to sit in on the trial by Johnnie Cochran?? IMO, no one made this a trial about race more than Cochran himself. Outrageous.

hmmm -- maybe he could see into the future and was simply soliciting work? :tongue:

Aug 9 2000 12:15 PM EDT

Johnnie Cochran To Represent Rosa Parks In Outkast Appeal By Jahna Berry

"Civil rights icon Rosa Parks has hired lawyer Johnnie Cochran to help her appeal a district court's decision allowing Atlanta rap group Outkast to use her name as the title of a song.

"When I asked [Cochran to help Parks], he said yes in a second," said Gregory Reed, who leads Parks' team of lawyers.

Reed said he asked Cochran to help Parks about a month ago. Cochran was unavailable for comment Tuesday. . ."

[William Anthony]

So, there was nothing wrong with the magnificent one asking his client to attend a trial, which is open to the public and the client is one to whom he may have looked up to. I don't think we know the relationship between the magnificent one and Ms. Parks prior to 1995 but we do know that the magnificent one did not hesitate to help her.

[martin II]

Perhaps, you and tvdinner should read this, noting the relationship between the magnificent one and Ms.Parks, although it may not change your prejudged conclusions.

http://www.answers.com/topic/johnnie-cochran-lawyer

Thanks.

[martin II]

Of course he said yes. Why wouldn't someone of Cochran's greed and ambition want to attach himself to Rosa Parks? :shrug:

He was asked to join the team.He was the most saught after lawyer in America.He didn't have to run after no clients, But there is no way that you would know that.

"When I asked [Cochran to help Parks], he said yes in a second," said Gregory Reed, who leads Parks' team of lawyers.

[martin II]

hmmm -- maybe he could see into the future and was simply soliciting work? :tongue:

Aug 9 2000 12:15 PM EDT

Johnnie Cochran To Represent Rosa Parks In Outkast Appeal By Jahna Berry

"Civil rights icon Rosa Parks has hired lawyer Johnnie Cochran to help her appeal a district court's decision allowing Atlanta rap group Outkast to use her name as the title of a song.

"When I asked [Cochran to help Parks], he said yes in a second," said Gregory Reed, who leads Parks' team of lawyers.

Reed said he asked Cochran to help Parks about a month ago. Cochran was unavailable for comment Tuesday. . ."


You see one would have to be a part of the black community to understand Rosa Parks situation and the high esteem Cochran was held in the black community to understad how pleased blacks were that Cocgran took her case. There was general relief for her when he agreed to help.Rosa was a black gem and blacks wanted her to have the best council available and i am sure Cochran felt it was his duty as a black man to use his proven skills to be of service to his queen.

That in a nut shell is how the black community saw it and i am not aware that mrs Park asked for others approval. Cochran did a lot of cases with no fee and i would believe this may have been one of many.imo

[martin II]

Some of them completely frivilous...but he'd do anything to put money in his pocket by standing on the backs of his own.

He won most of his cases even as a prosecutor when GG was under him.

[martin II]

One of the pieces of special info Cochran brought to the oj case is as a former prosecutor he knew how le and the DAs office works their underhanded stuff to get convictions.

[martin II]

So, there was nothing wrong with the magnificent one asking his client to attend a trial, which is open to the public and the client is one to whom he may have looked up to. I don't think we know the relationship between the magnificent one and Ms. Parks prior to 1995 but we do know that the magnificent one did not hesitate to help her.

Maby Mrs PARK wanted to see Cochran do his thing in court and he said why not.I own the court room.hahaha

[martin II]

Some of them completely frivilous...but he'd do anything to put money in his pocket by standing on the backs of his own.

tv
i suggest you read williams post on Cochran. I believe you missed something.

[martin II]

Some of them completely frivilous...but he'd do anything to put money in his pocket by standing on the backs of his own.

Thats funny.
All of his clients said he brought them justice.They should know.

[GreenIce]

Martin and William,

Just so you know, next time someone bashes the jury, especially about Mark Fuhrman, I think it is important to know that the reason he did not figure into jury room was because a white juror told the jury they could basically move on because they all knew he was a liar.

I knew a juror did say that about MF in the jury room but I never realized it was one of the white jurors.

[The Boys]

Martin,

Martin, Martin, Martin, don't you know the truth about the Simpson case? It will never go down in history as a legal case, it will always go down in history as a medical case!

Haven't you seen proof on how so many white people got in touch with their inner-African American self and felt they were experts at being black, knew exactly what is is like to be black in America, know what is is like to be married to be black a person and that is why they makes the posts they do?

Don't you know that every one of them feel they are able to judge to OJ Simpson because at one time they were black and when they married a white person and lived in the white world and had children that could pass for white, they feel they are able to talk about their brother, OJ Simpson? They have walked his shoes, they know everything there is to know about being black---don't you know that?:)

Heck Martin, they have walked in yours!

Oh please. To try to deny that race wasn't what this jury was about would be like saying race had nothing to do with the jury in the Rodney King trial.

[The Boys]

He won most of his cases even as a prosecutor when GG was under him.

He failed to prosecute Lenny Bruce. And the kicker is ... are you ready? ... he admitted in the book he wrote after the Simpson trial that his attempts to prosecute the guy were contrary to the 1st amendment.

Go figure. So I think we know that Cochran didn't always have Constitutional rights on the brain.

[martin II]

He failed to prosecute Lenny Bruce. And the kicker is ... are you ready? ... he admitted in the book he wrote after the Simpson trial that his attempts to prosecute the guy were contrary to the 1st amendment.

Go figure. So I think we know that Cochran didn't always have Constitutional rights on the brain.

I think that any case that Cochran was assigned to prosecute as a prosecutor was assigned to him by his boss.

What is odd is that Cochran was awarded the highhest honor by American lawyers group in addition to being named one of the best lawyers in the country. His skills were well known as a result of the cases he won and the high esteem he was held in at his death.This by citizens and lawyers. yet we have people that are uninformed in the law that are outside the law trying to tear his reputation down.

It may work in their circles but not in the legal community and not with the people that he brought justice to as a result of police abuse.

[William Anthony]

Of course he said yes. Why wouldn't someone of Cochran's greed and ambition want to attach himself to Rosa Parks? :shrug:

It is obvious to me that the magnificent one used the courtroom, in which, as his palace, imho, to show the disparities that may have been attributable to race and to use his skills to promote equal rights in our judicial system. The sad part is that, because of this he faced the scorn of some, who felt that he should not have assisted or been proud to have been friends with the woman, who is credited with starting the civil rights movement. Perhaps, different life experiences keep some from understanding that there was nothing nefarious in the magnificent one's motivation, even, if it was based on a sound sense of business for which other capitalist have been praised.

[William Anthony]

Oh please. To try to deny that race wasn't what this jury was about would be like saying race had nothing to do with the jury in the Rodney King trial.

The evidence supports the fact that the jury looked for the prosecution to meet its burden of proof but the prosecution failed, as evidenced by the verdict. Rodney King was not on trial, if you are talking about the beating. However, the first trial managed to place him on trial. I did not hear Caucasians expressing as much outrage over that as they do over the LAPD being allegedly placed on trial in the Simpson murder trial.

[William Anthony]

Martin and William,

Just so you know, next time someone bashes the jury, especially about Mark Fuhrman, I think it is important to know that the reason he did not figure into jury room was because a white juror told the jury they could basically move on because they all knew he was a liar.

I knew a juror did say that about MF in the jury room but I never realized it was one of the white jurors.

That is what I was saying all along. MF wasn't worth being considered and neither was his testimony, which that sophisticated jury understood, IMHO. We know that the jury has he duty to decide credibility.

[William Anthony]

Yep, Ron and Nicole are still dead, Simpson is still acquitted and most Americans still believe OJ Simpson is a double-murderer.

Cockroach distanced himself from the civil trial. He knew that when OJ Simpson took the stand there would be no way to defend his lies -- he preferred to leave the case still resting on his laurels and dump the civil case on someone else. How magnificent.

I think the magnificent one specialized in criminal law practice. Just as many doctors specialize in certain areas of medicine, and a plumber may or may not be a carpenter.

[William Anthony]

The magnificent one did not deny his alleged past indiscretions, like some of a lesser character, especially since those alleged indiscretions had nothing to do with his magnificence in a courtroom, except to those unwilling to acknowledge his magnificence for some other reasons.

[William Anthony]

Those, who fail to recognize the magnificent one's magnificence in his courtroom skills and point to something outside his area of magnificence in order to criticize him, one might say are cut from the same type of cloth. Unlike MF, the magnificent one's personal life or attitudes did not spill over into the courtroom-the magnificent one's arena. That arena is where character counted in this case-job performances, smile.

[GreenIce]

Oh please. To try to deny that race wasn't what this jury was about would be like saying race had nothing to do with the jury in the Rodney King trial.

The Boys,

Mark Fuhrman, himself, took race out this case for the jurors. First, his lying about the N-word, was not the only issue the jury had with him. He and Vanatter were telling different stories on at least two key issues, which was not lost upon the jury.

Because they already determined that he was a liar, why he lied doesn't matter. The jury was not allowed nor should they have spent any time on why they believed he lied.

As I have posted many times before, if you take MF out of this case, it changes nothing in the pattern of problems with the evidence. MF had nothing to do with how the evidence was collected, inventoried and stored. MF had nothing to do with VA carrying the blood. MF had nothing to do with the nurse's testimony.

I did not follow the Rodney King trial so I don't know if any of the jurors in the King case ever gave an interview regarding their verdict. However, I do believe that it is very possible that the trial seen on TV was not the same trial the jurors saw in the courtoom.

One last thing, no African American was or would ever be shocked to find out a member of LE would use racial slurs. One of the jurors even said that about MF using the n-word in regards to his days working the "gang" streets.

Also, MF's had other motives to plant the glove, his motive did not have be race based. IMO.

[martin II]

The Boys,

Mark Fuhrman, himself, took race out this case for the jurors. First, his lying about the N-word, was not the only issue the jury had with him. He and Vanatter were telling different stories on at least two key issues, which was not lost upon the jury.

Because they already determined that he was a liar, why he lied doesn't matter. The jury was not allowed nor should they have spent any time on why they believed he lied.

As I have posted many times before, if you take MF out of this case, it changes nothing in the pattern of problems with the evidence. MF had nothing to do with how the evidence was collected, inventoried and stored. MF had nothing to do with VA carrying the blood. MF had nothing to do with the nurse's testimony.

I did not follow the Rodney King trial so I don't know if any of the jurors in the King case ever gave an interview regarding their verdict. However, I do believe that it is very possible that the trial seen on TV was not the same trial the jurors saw in the courtoom.

One last thing, no African American was or would ever be shocked to find out a member of LE would use racial slurs. One of the jurors even said that about MF using the n-word in regards to his days working the "gang" streets.

Also, MF's had other motives to plant the glove, his motive did not have be race based. IMO.


GI

Some people have never experienced le running through their community abusing citizens. So they jusy say it dosen't happen.Its ignorance of the issue. In the oj case there are other reasons for the attacks on the jury and Cochran.imo

[William Anthony]

GI

Some people have never experienced le running through their community abusing citizens. So they jusy say it dosen't happen.Its ignorance of the issue.

The beating of Rodney King and to shoot a citizen over 40 times is perfectly acceptable to some, due to their beliefs formed by their life experiences, IMHO.

[William Anthony]

Who decided to call MF to the witness stand? Who hired MF? Who hired Darden and assigned him to the case?

[martin II]

I do not mean this in a negative way but in a way as to how some perceived the magnificent one as attacking LE and the idea that it was preposterous and therefore unethical for him to so do. I think they feel that way from a different set of life experiences and the life experiences that some, even most, Black Americans have, at some point in time, had with LE.

It seems that no matter how many cases we have of police abuse some refuse to believe it and find a way to blame the citizen that suffered the abuse.

[martin II]

Susan Smiths Husband was on tv last night and the conversation centered around of all the people in her town why did she tell le that it was a black man that took her kids.

[Kate Sachel]

It seems that no matter how many cases we have of police abuse some refuse to believe it and find a way to blame the citizen that suffered the abuse.

Isn't it interesting how that happens? It seems that no matter how many cases of domestic violence, some refuse to believe it and find a way to blame the victim that suffered the abuse.

Kate

[William Anthony]

It seems that no matter how many cases we have of police abuse some refuse to believe it and find a way to blame the citizen that suffered the abuse.

Someone smashes as hard as they can with a club a citizen laying on the ground and when the citizen flinches in response the club-wielder says he was disobeying an order to lie still and some believe it.

[weezer]

Isn't it interesting how that happens? It seems that no matter how many cases of domestic violence, some refuse to believe it and find a way to blame the victim that suffered the abuse.

Kate

makes me mad and sad at the same time -- :flamemad: :(

[William Anthony]

makes me mad and sad at the same time -- :flamemad: :(

While the analogy is the same, this is about race in the case. If you are saying that it makes you mad and sad to see the evidence of how LE treated Blacks and, in particular, how the racial attitude of LE members depicted by MF on the tapes and the evidence of MF's racial animus is what makes you mad and sad, like domestic violence, then I understand.

[Kate Sachel]

While the analogy is the same, this is about race in the case. If you are saying that it makes you mad and sad to see the evidence of how LE treated Blacks and, in particular, how the racial attitude of LE members depicted by MF on the tapes and the evidence of MF's racial animus is what makes you mad and sad, like domestic violence, then I understand.

Do you care to address martin and advise him that Susan Smith's statements are irrelevant as this thread is "race in THE case", meaning this OJ Simpson forum since that is where the thread was placed and not "race in any case"?

Kate

[William Anthony]

Do you care to address martin and advise him that Susan Smith's statements are irrelevant as this thread is "race in THE case", meaning this OJ Simpson forum since that is where the thread was placed and not "race in any case"?

Kate

Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.

[martin II]

Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.

The complaining poster must have ignored the post about JW. Farakhan.I have already given my reason why i posted about susan.I have no interest in what some think about it.

If the police send 90% of their crime fighting force into the black community
and 10% elsewhere. We cannot be surprised what the arrest rate will be.
It seems that le believes that people with a nice house in the surburbs just don't commit crimes when in fact most of the powered cocain is used there not to mention abuse of women.

As i have said some find any reason to attack even simple post of gs. i just ignore them just as i have for some time informed a poster that she is on ignore. This has not stopped her attempts to drag me into discussions by making sure my every post is answered by her.But this is not even a irritant
as the ignore option has served me well.

[tv]

Do you care to address martin and advise him that Susan Smith's statements are irrelevant as this thread is "race in THE case", meaning this OJ Simpson forum since that is where the thread was placed and not "race in any case"?

Kate

Kate, some of us are expected to bear guilt for any irresponsible action or thought that any white person has against any black person. We are supposed to have an answer for their motivations -- it doesn't matter if we feel their actions, accusations or words are inexcusable or reprehensible. I refuse to play this guilt game any longer because I can come up with equally unfair examples that don't belong in this thread such as Tawana Brawley and the Duke lacrosse players. Thank you for putting this in it's proper perspective.

[weezer]

Kate, some of us are expected to bear guilt for any irresponsible action or thought that any white person has against any black person. We are supposed to have an answer for their motivations -- it doesn't matter if we feel their actions, accusations or words are inexcusable or reprehensible. I refuse to play this guilt game any longer because I can come up with equally unfair examples that don't belong in this thread such as Tawana Brawley and the Duke lacrosse players. Thank you for putting this in it's proper perspective.

:beer::beer:

[Kate Sachel]

The complaining poster must have ignored the post about JW. Farakhan.I have already given my reason why i posted about susan.I have no interest in what some think about it.

If the police send 90% of their crime fighting force into the black community
and 10% elsewhere. We cannot be surprised what the arrest rate will be.
It seems that le believes that people with a nice house in the surburbs just don't commit crimes when in fact most of the powered cocain is used there not to mention abuse of women.

As i have said some find any reason to attack even simple post of gs. i just ignore them just as i have for some time informed a poster that she is on ignore. This has not stopped her attempts to drag me into discussions by making sure my every post is answered by her.But this is not even a irritant
as the ignore option has served me well.

You will have a whole lot of interest when you find it deleted and determined to be irrelevant to this thread.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.

It does not matter; Susan Smith is not relevant to this thread. We are not discussing her actions or thoughts, nor do her actions or thoughts have any relevance to law enforcement.

Kate

[William Anthony]

The complaining poster must have ignored the post about JW. Farakhan.I have already given my reason why i posted about susan.I have no interest in what some think about it.

If the police send 90% of their crime fighting force into the black community
and 10% elsewhere. We cannot be surprised what the arrest rate will be.
It seems that le believes that people with a nice house in the surburbs just don't commit crimes when in fact most of the powered cocain is used there not to mention abuse of women.

As i have said some find any reason to attack even simple post of gs. i just ignore them just as i have for some time informed a poster that she is on ignore. This has not stopped her attempts to drag me into discussions by making sure my every post is answered by her.But this is not even a irritant
as the ignore option has served me well.

I think the conversation is one worth holding as it shows how differently Blacks and Caucasians relate incidents to race and how those things may have impacted the Simpson case.

[William Anthony]

It does not matter; Susan Smith is not relevant to this thread. We are not discussing her actions or thoughts, nor do her actions or thoughts have any relevance to law enforcement.

Kate

I beg to differ on the relevance of her conduct, as I have previously stated that it is a common principle that when a Black is accused, as was Simpson, he is guilty until proven innocent. Susan Smith and LE had people all across America looking for and reporting Black men seen with Caucasian children. You said on another thread that the criminal justice system has nothing to do with true guilt or innocence. Yet, there are those that demand on this forum that Simpson prove his innocence, which only proves what I said about Susan's actions and the feelings that some have when a Black is accused.

[William Anthony]

Kate, some of us are expected to bear guilt for any irresponsible action or thought that any white person has against any black person. We are supposed to have an answer for their motivations -- it doesn't matter if we feel their actions, accusations or words are inexcusable or reprehensible. I refuse to play this guilt game any longer because I can come up with equally unfair examples that don't belong in this thread such as Tawana Brawley and the Duke lacrosse players. Thank you for putting this in it's proper perspective.

With all due respect, no one is blaming you or any other Caucasian for irresponsible actions of other Caucasians. However, we are asking Caucasians to explain their statements in defense of or excuses for the irresponsible statements and actions of other Caucasians, like MF. There was a fervor put forth reminding America that the Duke Lacrosse players were innocent until proven guilty but an even greater fervor, IMHO, put forth for Simpson to prove his innocence even though he was found not guilty.

[William Anthony]

I sincerely hope that Susan Smith is not deleted as it is relevant to this thread as it shows what Blacks endure after simply being accused.

[Kate Sachel]

I beg to differ on the relevance of her conduct, as I have previously stated that it is a common principle that when a Black is accused, as was Simpson, he is guilty until proven innocent. Susan Smith and LE had people all across America looking for and reporting Black men seen with Caucasian children. You said on another thread that the criminal justice system has nothing to do with true guilt or innocence. Yet, there are those that demand on this forum that Simpson prove his innocence, which only proves what I said about Susan's actions and the feelings that some have when a Black is accused.

You may beg all you wish, but her conduct has no relevance to the issue of race in this case.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

WILLIAM.

What i think is le abuse of citizens is one issue. Abuse of women and yes men is another issue.

What i have noticed in post by some ABUSE EXPERTS here that are interested in abuse, confind there interest to abuse of women by men but ignore the issue of abuse by women of men. I have never seen a post by these interested experts noting the issue of ABUSE of men by women. Either the idea is that it does not happen or that it is ok that it does.
Thank for you post on abuse by women against men. I am still reading it.

Thank you for continuing to make your own bed.

Kate

[William Anthony]

You may beg all you wish, but her conduct has no relevance to the issue of race in this case.

Kate

Kate,

I was simply being polite in offering to beg to differ. Susan Smith's conduct has a tremendous amount to do with this case as it helps to explain the difference in the polls taken by race in regard to the verdict.

[Kate Sachel]

I sincerely hope that Susan Smith is not deleted as it is relevant to this thread as it shows what Blacks endure after simply being accused.

It simply speaks to what any individual endures after simply being accused.

Kate

[tv]

http://boards.library.trutv.com/showthread.php?t=291335&highlight=susan+smith

http://boards.library.trutv.com/showthread.php?t=280377&highlight=susan+smith

[William Anthony]

It simply speaks to what any individual endures after simply being accused.

Kate

I am reminded of the joke about the Black man who went to court to seek justice but did not find it until he went to jail, when he remarked, there is no one here but just us. You seem to want to deny the injustice of the CJS based on race, which begins with the accusation.

[Kate Sachel]

I am reminded of the joke about the Black man who went to court to seek justice but did not find it until he went to jail, when he remarked, there is no one here but just us. You seem to want to deny the injustice of the CJS based on race, which begins with the accusation.

That's nonsense in it's most simple form; if I wanted to deny injustice then I would do so. Instead, if you would care to recollect, or perhaps convenient memory falls into place here in lieu of recollection, I have posted repeatedly over the course of this forum on the injustices of our system.

I can cite for your numerous cases in which manhunts went underway in the immediate aftermath of white individuals being accused of a serious crime. I can speak to you of tremendous injustices of white men that occur immediately upon the accusation of rape to the point where lives are destroyed.

All of that said to simply say that when an individual is accused of a crime, our culture immediately assumes guilt no matter the race. In fact, didn't martin post just the other day that as soon as he heard a media report about Robert Blake he was of the opinion that Mr. Blake had shot his wife? Now granted, he had his case wrong between Robert Blake and Phil Spector but nonetheless admitted to a rush to judgment. And someone correct me please if I am wrong, but the last I recall both Robert Blake and Phil Spector are white.

Are they not?

Kate

[martin II]

With all due respect, no one is blaming you or any other Caucasian for irresponsible actions of other Caucasians. However, we are asking Caucasians to explain their statements in defense of or excuses for the irresponsible statements and actions of other Caucasians, like MF. There was a fervor put forth reminding America that the Duke Lacrosse players were innocent until proven guilty but an even greater fervor, IMHO, put forth for Simpson to prove his innocence even though he was found not guilty.

I have never understood why when a comment if made about abuse by le, some say they are tired of white people being attacked.

It is like when Slavery is mentioned some seem to believe they are being held personally responsible for the actions for their ancestors.Therefore they refuse to discuss slavery at all or point to the fact that some slave were traded by Africans or that some slaves could read.

[William Anthony]

That's nonsense in it's most simple form; if I wanted to deny injustice then I would do so. Instead, if you would care to recollect, or perhaps convenient memory falls into place here in lieu of recollection, I have posted repeatedly over the course of this forum on the injustices of our system.

I can cite for your numerous cases in which manhunts went underway in the immediate aftermath of white individuals being accused of a serious crime. I can speak to you of tremendous injustices of white men that occur immediately upon the accusation of rape to the point where lives are destroyed.

All of that said to simply say that when an individual is accused of a crime, our culture immediately assumes guilt no matter the race. In fact, didn't martin post just the other day that as soon as he heard a media report about Robert Blake he was of the opinion that Mr. Blake had shot his wife? Now granted, he had his case wrong between Robert Blake and Phil Spector but nonetheless admitted to a rush to judgment. And someone correct me please if I am wrong, but the last I recall both Robert Blake and Phil Spector are white.

Are they not?

Kate

Both Robert Blake and Phil Spector are Caucasian and I will not deny that, when there is an accusation of violence, some minority members may believe that the Caucasian accused male is guilty, based on the Caucasian male's propensity to engage in violence and, also his love for money. However, since the Caucasian male has long controlled the power in the government and the judicial system, what the minority believed has been of little consequence to the outcome of the case, as I do not think I need to remind you of the necessity of the Batson challenge. There has been a institutionalized effort to keep Blacks institutionalized.

[William Anthony]

Maybe the day you and some of your lackeys can explain their defense or excuses for shysters like Simpson.

Simpson, like so many before him, to include Caucasians, had his day in court but somehow his acquittal seems to displease some. I think you need to tone down the manner of you post and be respectful to other posters, as referring to them as lackeys is not respectful. Thanks.

[Kate Sachel]

Both Robert Blake and Phil Spector are Caucasian and I will not deny that, when there is an accusation of violence, some minority members may believe that the Caucasian accused male is guilty, based on the Caucasian male's propensity to engage in violence and, also his love for money. However, since the Caucasian male has long controlled the power in the government and the judicial system, what the minority believed has been of little consequence to the outcome of the case, as I do not think I need to remind you of the necessity of the Batson challenge. There has been a institutionalized effort to keep Blacks institutionalized.

So for the purpose of clarification you support martin's rush to judgment of a white man but no white man's rush to judgment of a black man?

Kate

[martin II]

Kate,

I was simply being polite in offering to beg to differ. Susan Smith's conduct has a tremendous amount to do with this case as it helps to explain the difference in the polls taken by race in regard to the verdict.

Your discussion is a perfect example of how whites and blacks see race issues different. In Susans case the idea is offered that we should not even discuss her and how she caused le to RUSH TO JUDGEMENT by rounding up all black men based only on her word.I guess when all the black men had a excuse they looked back at her.To her surprise.Cochran accused lapd of a RUSH TO JUDGEMENT. I see no differance.

[William Anthony]

Man did I call that one! HAHAHA.

Quite untrue. I have never said it was okay for anyone to automatically say that anyone is guilty. I have just pointed to reasons why some minorities may believe that a Caucasian male is guilty before trial based on the Caucasian male's historical proclivity for violence and the fact that the powerless minority, unlike the Caucasian male, could not control the continued use of institutionalized racism.

[William Anthony]

So for the purpose of clarification you support martin's rush to judgment of a white man but no white man's rush to judgment of a black man?

Kate

No, there is just an observation of both and a notation that minorities have not been able to victimize the majority in any institutionalized manner.

[Kate Sachel]

No, there is just an observation of both and a notation that minorities have not been able to victimize the majority in any institutionalized manner.

Thank you.

Kate

[William Anthony]

Thank you.

Kate

You are quite welcome and this is the type of discussion and debate that helps us all to learn, IMHO.

[Kate Sachel]

I have stated that i thought Blake may have been guilty because when the incident happened and on that day the media was full of HE KILLED HIS WIFE

I never followed that case at all.

When the media came out that this other guy had shot this lady in the mouth and there were artist sketches of the scene i thought he may have killed that woman. i never followed that either.


Neither case had not one bit of interest for me.So posters should not take my comment to support their nonsense.

I think people should be careful in posting what i have said on the issue. or just leave me out of her discussion.If she can stand to.

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that something that you posted is being scrutinized, and that said post may have backfired on you.

With your last sentence, I again thank you for making your won bed.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

I have stated that i thought Blake may have been guilty because when the incident happened and on that day the media was full of HE KILLED HIS WIFE

I never followed that case at all.

When the media came out that this other guy had shot this lady in the mouth and there were artist sketches of the scene i thought he may have killed that woman. i never followed that either.


Neither case had not one bit of interest for me.So posters should not take my comment to support their nonsense.

I think people should be careful in posting what i have said on the issue. or just leave me out of her discussion.If she can stand to.

Yes, and on the day of June 13th when news broke of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman's murder the media was "full of he killed his wife" and people rushed to judgment. You condemn those people but choose to absolve yourself for taking the same course of action.

If neither case held any interest for you or you did not follow them perhaps if would have been best not to post such things regarding them. Had you not posted what you did, no one would be able to "use" said posts.

Kate

[socaldiva]

*snip*
Yes, and on the day of June 13th when news broke of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman's murder the media was "full of he killed his wife" and people rushed to judgment.

Was that the case? I really don't remember. I didn't know anything about Nicole Brown Simpson or Ron Goldman up to that point & had nothing against Simpson, so I had no idea on that day who the killer might have been. The only reason this case caught my eye was the Bronco chase, which happened much later.

[tv]

Was that the case? I really don't remember. I didn't know anything about Nicole Brown Simpson or Ron Goldman up to that point & had nothing against Simpson, so I had no idea on that day who the killer might have been. The only reason this case caught my eye was the Bronco chase, which happened much later.

That's what caught my attention, too. Until the Bronco chase I didn't seriously consider OJ Simpson a suspect and even then I didn't form a firm opinion until it became obvious to me that all the evidence pointed to him.

[William Anthony]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/1/18/131456/162/798/426360

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/04/guilty-until-proven-innocent.php

[Kate Sachel]

Was that the case? I really don't remember. I didn't know anything about Nicole Brown Simpson or Ron Goldman up to that point & had nothing against Simpson, so I had no idea on that day who the killer might have been. The only reason this case caught my eye was the Bronco chase, which happened much later.

It was the case, as it is in a majority of cases like this. The media really came out swinging right off the bat with the speculation that "famed football player and Heisman trophy winner" OJ Simpson had murdered his ex-wife.

Kate

[socaldiva]

It was the case, as it is in a majority of cases like this. The media really came out swinging right off the bat with the speculation that "famed football player and Heisman trophy winner" OJ Simpson had murdered his ex-wife.

Kate

I typically don't watch the news, I read it & only read what catches my eye, so I suppose I missed it.

[William Anthony]

The Bronco chase negated the presumption of innocence in the minds of some. Well, well, well.:)

[Kate Sachel]

The Bronco chase negated the presumption of innocence in the minds of some. Well, well, well.:)

Perhaps, but unless we are called for jury duty in that case we are not required as citizens to operate under the presumption of innocence.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

I typically don't watch the news, I read it & only read what catches my eye, so I suppose I missed it.

Actually, a lot of people missed it. The majority of people that I know were tuned in to the case only after the Bronco chase preempted all other television coverage.

Kate

[William Anthony]

Perhaps, but unless we are called for jury duty in that case we are not required as citizens to operate under the presumption of innocence.

Kate

That is not my point. Simpson, a Black man, accused of brutally murdering two young Caucasians in the prime of their lives, is guilty, because he and the police engaged in a parade.

[tv]

I typically don't watch the news, I read it & only read what catches my eye, so I suppose I missed it.

As I recall, I found the reason for the Bronco chase confusing. I didn't understand why he would go on a slow-speed chase -- to me that term is an oxymoron. At the time I was under the impression that he was in Chicago when the murders occurred. I figured that they would find the 'real' killer and he would be released. :shrug:

[weezer]

Actually, a lot of people missed it. The majority of people that I know were tuned in to the case only after the Bronco chase preempted all other television coverage.

Kate

the first I heard of the murders was when the television stations cut into the basketball finals to show the bronco ride -- I heard it from my husband yelling at the television, "Who gives a sh*t -- Get back to the game!"

[William Anthony]

Actually, a lot of people missed it. The majority of people that I know were tuned in to the case only after the Bronco chase preempted all other television coverage.

Kate

I remember hearing of it and seeing some media coverage of a person I would learn was Marcia Clark at the crime scene, which took place before the chase, IIRC.

[William Anthony]

As I recall, I found the reason for the Bronco chase confusing. I didn't understand why he would go on a slow-speed chase -- to me that term is an oxymoron. At the time I was under the impression that he was in Chicago when the murders occurred. I figured that they would find the 'real' killer and he would be released. :shrug:

"That's what caught my attention, too. Until the Bronco chase I didn't seriously consider OJ Simpson a suspect and even then I didn't form a firm opinion until it became obvious to me that all the evidence pointed to him."

[Kate Sachel]

That is not my point. Simpson, a Black man, accused of brutally murdering two young Caucasians in the prime of their lives, is guilty, because he and the police engaged in a parade.

It is the point; you referred to the chase as negating the presumption of innocence and I am simply pointing out that we are not required to operate under that presumption.

Things are not always just black and white; not everyone who lost that presumption of innocence with the Bronco chase lost it because OJ is black. A great many of them lost it because it seemed quite obvious that OJ was fleeing; he was scheduled to turn himself in at Parker Center at a specified time and did not show.

Kate

[weezer]

It is the point; you referred to the chase as negating the presumption of innocence and I am simply pointing out that we are not required to operate under that presumption.

Things are not always just black and white; not everyone who lost that presumption of innocence with the Bronco chase lost it because OJ is black. A great many of them lost it because it seemed quite obvious that OJ was fleeing; he was scheduled to turn himself in at Parker Center at a specified time and did not show.

Kate

you know, I don't even remember hearing/seeing/reading anything about the color of Nicole and/or Ron before, during, or after the Bronco ride and if I did, it didn't register.

I think him trying to run and threatening suicide was the first indication he was trying to run. Even then, I didn't pay attention. I'm not sure when I got interested -- probably once the trial started.

[William Anthony]

It is the point; you referred to the chase as negating the presumption of innocence and I am simply pointing out that we are not required to operate under that presumption.

Things are not always just black and white; not everyone who lost that presumption of innocence with the Bronco chase lost it because OJ is black. A great many of them lost it because it seemed quite obvious that OJ was fleeing; he was scheduled to turn himself in at Parker Center at a specified time and did not show.

Kate

I was not speaking of everyone but I was speaking of those who stated they had no prior interest in or knowledge of the case until they saw the parade and from that they concluded that Simpson was most likely guilty. I don't know how Simpson set records for running, if people characterize that as fleeing. :)

[tv]

It is the point; you referred to the chase as negating the presumption of innocence and I am simply pointing out that we are not required to operate under that presumption.

Things are not always just black and white; not everyone who lost that presumption of innocence with the Bronco chase lost it because OJ is black. A great many of them lost it because it seemed quite obvious that OJ was fleeing; he was scheduled to turn himself in at Parker Center at a specified time and did not show.

Kate

That's what confused me about the Bronco chase. It contradicted what I thought would be the actions of an innocent man but I still wasn't ready to believe he was guilty. It took the evidence to remove any doubt I felt. His color never factored into it for me.

[William Anthony]

It is obvious that the pictures of the victims were posted in the media and people got interested. :)

[William Anthony]

That's what confused me about the Bronco chase. It contradicted what I thought would be the actions of an innocent man but I still wasn't ready to believe he was guilty. It took the evidence to remove any doubt I felt. His color never factored into it for me.

WTH?

"That's what caught my attention, too. Until the Bronco chase I didn't seriously consider OJ Simpson a suspect (so, prior to the parade you consider Simpson a suspect but not seriously) and even then I didn't form a firm opinion (so, you had formed an opinion of his guilt but not a firm one)until it became obvious to me that all the evidence pointed to him."

[weezer]

That's what confused me about the Bronco chase. It contradicted what I thought would be the actions of an innocent man but I still wasn't ready to believe he was guilty. It took the evidence to remove any doubt I felt. His color never factored into it for me.

I was familiar with who he was but was/was not an admirer -- knew he had played football and played in some of the stupid police academy movies, seen him on tv commercials. nothing about him effected my life so, not be indelicate, I wasn't interested in what he was or was not doing. didn't know the color of his wife. didn't know the color of Ron Goldman. on the night of the bronco ride, I thought his actions and words were that of a guilty man.

[tv]

you know, I don't even remember hearing/seeing/reading anything about the color of Nicole and/or Ron before, during, or after the Bronco ride and if I did, it didn't register.

I think him trying to run and threatening suicide was the first indication he was trying to run. Even then, I didn't pay attention. I'm not sure when I got interested -- probably once the trial started.

I vaguely remember hearing the news that his ex-wife had been murdered. I don't remember when I knew that someone else was killed also. Our family was at the beach at the time of the Bronco chase so I wasn't really paying a lot of attention to the news. I just remember thinking there was so way he was guilty and that there would be someone else identified as a suspect and he would be off the hook. I'll admit it's hard to remember exactly what I was thinking 15 years ago but I think that's very close.

[William Anthony]

I was familiar with who he was but was/was not an admirer -- knew he had played football and played in some of the stupid police academy movies, seen him on tv commercials. nothing about him effected my life so, not be indelicate, I wasn't interested in what he was or was not doing. didn't know the color of his wife. didn't know the color of Ron Goldman. on the night of the bronco ride, I thought his actions and words were that of a guilty man.

What words of his did you hear on the night of the "bronco ride"?

[William Anthony]

I vaguely remember hearing the news that his ex-wife had been murdered. I don't remember when I knew that someone else was killed also. Our family was at the beach at the time of the Bronco chase so I wasn't really paying a lot of attention to the news. I just remember thinking there was so way he was guilty and that there would be someone else identified as a suspect and he would be off the hook. I'll admit it's hard to remember exactly what I was thinking 15 years ago but I think that's very close.

As opposed to your prior post?

[tv]

I was familiar with who he was but was/was not an admirer -- knew he had played football and played in some of the stupid police academy movies, seen him on tv commercials. nothing about him effected my life so, not be indelicate, I wasn't interested in what he was or was not doing. didn't know the color of his wife. didn't know the color of Ron Goldman. on the night of the bronco ride, I thought his actions and words were that of a guilty man.

Since my husband is such a huge football fan I'd heard many times that he was the best running back in NFL history second only possibly to Jim Brown. I knew him from commercials and I knew he was a beloved sports figure. I'm not sure I ever saw any of the Naked Gun movies.

[tv]

I was familiar with who he was but was/was not an admirer -- knew he had played football and played in some of the stupid police academy movies, seen him on tv commercials. nothing about him effected my life so, not be indelicate, I wasn't interested in what he was or was not doing. didn't know the color of his wife. didn't know the color of Ron Goldman. on the night of the bronco ride, I thought his actions and words were that of a guilty man.

I forgot about the suicide note. The whole thing (the note) and the Bronco chase didn't make a whole lot of sense to me in the context of innocence but I wasn't ready to say he was guilty.

[William Anthony]

I forgot about the suicide note. The whole thing (the note) and the Bronco chase didn't make a whole lot of sense to me in the context of innocence but I wasn't ready to say he was guilty.

Did they release the contents of the alleged suicide note on the night of the bronco ride?

[Kate Sachel]

Did they release the contents of the alleged suicide note on the night of the bronco ride?

I believe that they did. I think, though I may have to stand corrected, that Robert Kardashian read the contents of the suicide note while the chase was happening.

Kate

[William Anthony]

I believe that they did. I think, though I may have to stand corrected, that Robert Kardashian read the contents of the suicide note while the chase was happening.

Kate


Is this your term paper?:) It appears you are right.

http://www.termpaperslab.com/term-papers/146555.html

[weezer]

I forgot about the suicide note. The whole thing (the note) and the Bronco chase didn't make a whole lot of sense to me in the context of innocence but I wasn't ready to say he was guilty.

I just simply wasn't interested -- I thought his words and actions were that of a guilty man trying to run.

[tv]

I just simply wasn't interested -- I thought his words and actions were that of a guilty man trying to run.

I was mildly interested but the beach was more interesting at the time. :)

[William Anthony]

Talk about a rush to judgment and some interests peaked quite rapidly as they have repeatedly referred to the criminal jury as ignorant, uneducated and racially biased, and accuse the magnificent one of playing the race card.

[William Anthony]

I just simply wasn't interested -- I thought his words and actions were that of a guilty man trying to run.

Were you trying to get a tan?

[weezer]

I was mildly interested but the beach was more interesting at the time. :)

I'm not sure at what point I got into paying attention to the trial -- maybe after the saturation of the media with the 'peyton place' drama of it. . . .

[martin II]

My post are in tact. some others are not.

[Kate Sachel]

Is this your term paper?:) It appears you are right.

http://www.termpaperslab.com/term-papers/146555.html

I didn't realize my paper had been published.

Kate

[socaldiva]

I just simply wasn't interested -- I thought his words and actions were that of a guilty man trying to run.

Yes, I'd say the chase & the suicide note reeked of guilt for me. Why else would he have a gun to his head? IMO race had nothing to do with it.

[Kate Sachel]

Talk about a rush to judgment and some interests peaked quite rapidly as they have repeatedly referred to the criminal jury as ignorant, uneducated and racially biased, and accuse the magnificent one of playing the race card.

In all fairness, removing OJ Simpson from the equation and speaking in a general fashion, this is simply what people do. We, as human beings, form opinions based on current beliefs that stem from what we hear and what we think we know as well as on life experiences.

To me, it is not so much the forming of an opinion in the immediate aftermath that matters as much as being willing to keep an open mind which allows you to alter your opinions in accordance with the actual facts that come to light.

There have been cases in which my initial opinion was that the accused was innocent, only to change my mind in the aftermath as more facts came to light. In turn, the opposite has happened for me as well.

Kate

[William Anthony]

I didn't realize my paper had been published.

Kate

Yes, you are an author.

[martin II]

It is obvious that the pictures of the victims were posted in the media and people got interested. :)

IN the first hour of media reports the identify of ron,nicole and oj was in the reports. so i don't know why or how anyone could have missed that.

[William Anthony]

In all fairness, removing OJ Simpson from the equation and speaking in a general fashion, this is simply what people do. We, as human beings, form opinions based on current beliefs that stem from what we hear and what we think we know as well as on life experiences.

To me, it is not so much the forming of an opinion in the immediate aftermath that matters as much as being willing to keep an open mind which allows you to alter your opinions in accordance with the actual facts that come to light.

There have been cases in which my initial opinion was that the accused was innocent, only to change my mind in the aftermath as more facts came to light. In turn, the opposite has happened for me as well.

Kate

I understand and unless the defense concedes that the client did the crime and uses some defense like insanity and justifiable homicide I operate from the standpoint that the defendant is innocent and the prosecution must prove he did the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.

[William Anthony]

IN the first hour of media reports the identify of ron,nicole and oj was in the reports. so i don't know why or how anyone could have missed that.

I do believe their races were mentioned.

[martin II]

I do believe their races were mentioned.

They were on most networks and cable stations.It was not possible to hear the story without pictures of all three.That was when and how the media told America Black man killed White blue eyed blond (actually she was a brunette) and her white male friend and race was in the case.

[martin II]

I understand and unless the defense concedes that the client did the crime and uses some defense like insanity and justifiable homicide I operate from the standpoint that the defendant is innocent and the prosecution must prove he did the crime beyond a reasonable doubt.


After expressing firm opinions with friends on a issue i find that most people find it almost impossible to announce a change in position.Sone even change their opinions to themselves but never in plublic.

[William Anthony]

They were on most networks and cable stations.It was not possible to hear the story without pictures of all three.That was when and how the media told America Black man killed White blue eyed blond (actually she was a brunette) and her white male friend and race was in the case.

I think that you are correct and, if Simpson had been acquitted of murdering his first wife and her Black male friend, there would not be an equal amount of outrage, although I must admit that there seems to be an abnormality between sucessful Black pro football players and other Black males, as Plaxico received two years for shooting himself and I have known Blacks that have done two years for killing another Black.

[martin II]

I think that you are correct and, if Simpson had been acquitted of murdering his first wife and her Black male friend, there would not be an equal amount of outrage, although I must admit that there seems to be an abnormality between sucessful Black pro football players and other Black males, as Plaxico received two years for shooting himself and I have known Blacks that have done two years for killing another Black.

On the day two people killed nicole and ron the two white people and a black man was thought to have done it a black woman was pushed out of a building to her death and i bet not one poster here knows that.It got zip in the media.

[William Anthony]

On the day two people killed nicole and ron the two white people and a black man was thought to have done it a black woman was pushed out of a building to her death and i bet not one poster here knows that.It got zip in the media.

First I have heard of it.

[martin II]

The Bronco chase negated the presumption of innocence in the minds of some. Well, well, well.:)

The bronco chase must have been seen by every American 5 times in the first two weeks. EVERYONE SAW IT. At first i thought the people in the bronco must have had a SUV full of donuts with chocolate toppings when i saw all the coppers following in line.

[William Anthony]

The bronco chase must have been seen by every American 5 times in the first two weeks. EVERYONE SAW IT. At first i thought the people in the bronco must have had a SUV full of donuts with chocolate toppings when i saw all the coppers following in line.

I like that one, :) :) :).

[martin II]

First I have heard of it.

Mr Dyson spoke about it last week on LARRY kING.

[martin II]

I think that you are correct and, if Simpson had been acquitted of murdering his first wife and her Black male friend, there would not be an equal amount of outrage, although I must admit that there seems to be an abnormality between sucessful Black pro football players and other Black males, as Plaxico received two years for shooting himself and I have known Blacks that have done two years for killing another Black.
\

THE black man on death row in texas because 8 withesses were forced by the DA and cops to testify against him. Now all 8 have found the courage to expose the DAS threats to maske them testify ans noww all say they never saw this black man kill anyone.The Supreme Court gave him a new trial.
Texas must be some hell fire place for black men with that trigger happy death penalty.

[martin II]

I think that you are correct and, if Simpson had been acquitted of murdering his first wife and her Black male friend, there would not be an equal amount of outrage, although I must admit that there seems to be an abnormality between sucessful Black pro football players and other Black males, as Plaxico received two years for shooting himself and I have known Blacks that have done two years for killing another Black.

If my post were not true the media could have reported man and woman killed another man suspected of killing them.

For a while where i am there was a media policy of not giving the race of victims or accused. last yeat some time they reverted to some giving the race.Not all but some.The rags like the post and daily news always give race.
In this case nicole was treated like a white angel married to a mean abusing black football player. Ron as a good young white man.The trial told a different story.

[GreenIce]

Do you care to address martin and advise him that Susan Smith's statements are irrelevant as this thread is "race in THE case", meaning this OJ Simpson forum since that is where the thread was placed and not "race in any case"?

Kate

Kate,

Here is a shocker, I totally disagree with your comments. IMO, one of the biggest problems when it comes to discussing the Simpson case in regards to race is that many people seem to believe that racism in our country, especially in the legal system all came about from this case and the Rodney King case.

It is obvious, that no one can deny that blacks and white have seen our legal system differently for generations and decades upon decades. When African-Americans have tried to explain the history behind these differences, many people right away feel they are being blamed for the past, that are trying to be made to feel guilty. And, IMO, that is not the case.

I do believe comparing other cases to the Simpson case is a good thing and that perhaps one post will be read and learned from. Right now, IMO, many times the discussion of race in this case becomes one huge pissing contest and who wins them? No one. These contests only bring about more hate, hurt and misunderstanding and IMO, many times, regardless of what "side" you are, their true message has been lost.

Also, this case did not involved just black and white when it comes to race. IMO, if you keep everything the same in this case but OJ Simpson was the man who was murdered and Ronald Goldman was in the defendant's chair, do you think Mr. Goldman would have gone to the court house steps and made the same comments about the Judge allowing the world to hear about MF's comments about Jews? Do you think Mr. Goldman would have dropped the fact of the cartoon that MF had on his desk? Or that other detective who kept a log on MF after MF painted a swatiska on his locker when he married a Jew?

There is a much larger picture when it comes to race and to limit it to just one or two does not do either side any good when it comes to having a honest discussion about it.

IMO, Martin made an excellent point and asked an excellent question regarding Susan Smith. Susan Smith is a prime example of just how deep our racial issues are. There was another famous case where a man blamed a black man for the crimes he committed and he wasn't going to prison because he knew he would be a dead man inside and made the choice to jump off a bridge rather then face a people who he knew he wronged.

I think Charles Stewart and Susan Smith are cases that explain so much and yet when they are mentioned in regards to this case, you say they are irrelevant. I totally disagree.

[martin II]

Kate,

Here is a shocker, I totally disagree with your comments. IMO, one of the biggest problems when it comes to discussing the Simpson case in regards to race is that many people seem to believe that racism in our country, especially in the legal system all came about from this case and the Rodney King case.

It is obvious, that no one can deny that blacks and white have seen our legal system differently for generations and decades upon decades. When African-Americans have tried to explain the history behind these differences, many people right away feel they are being blamed for the past, that are trying to be made to feel guilty. And, IMO, that is not the case.

I do believe comparing other cases to the Simpson case is a good thing and that perhaps one post will be read and learned from. Right now, IMO, many times the discussion of race in this case becomes one huge pissing contest and who wins them? No one. These contests only bring about more hate, hurt and misunderstanding and IMO, many times, regardless of what "side" you are, their true message has been lost.

Also, this case did not involved just black and white when it comes to race. IMO, if you keep everything the same in this case but OJ Simpson was the man who was murdered and Ronald Goldman was in the defendant's chair, do you think Mr. Goldman would have gone to the court house steps and made the same comments about the Judge allowing the world to hear about MF's comments about Jews? Do you think Mr. Goldman would have dropped the fact of the cartoon that MF had on his desk? Or that other detective who kept a log on MF after MF painted a swatiska on his locker when he married a Jew?

There is a much larger picture when it comes to race and to limit it to just one or two does not do either side any good when it comes to having a honest discussion about it.

IMO, Martin made an excellent point and asked an excellent question regarding Susan Smith. Susan Smith is a prime example of just how deep our racial issues are. There was another famous case where a man blamed a black man for the crimes he committed and he wasn't going to prison because he knew he would be a dead man inside and made the choice to jump off a bridge rather then face a people who he knew he wronged.

I think Charles Stewart and Susan Smith are cases that explain so much and yet when they are mentioned in regards to this case, you say they are irrelevant. I totally disagree.

That was my point but some have different motives for saying Susan was not relevant when the post came from me.. It is not your fault or mine that the revelance was not seen.

[GreenIce]

Originally Posted by William Anthony
Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.


William,

I have to disagree with you. IMO, there are plenty of examples of people of all races that say that while our system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, that is not the case. It is guilty until proven innocent. I don't think race matters.

However, where I do think race plays a huge, huge role in this is that it appears that many white Americans believe that the police would not arrest someone unless they had proof that this person is guility. I think for many people just the thought of the police tampering or planting evidence is just so far out of reality it is laughable to even think they would do something like this. It appears to me that even cops are caught in a lie, people are more then willing to listen to the media justify this behavior by saying that they can't do their job if they have to follow all the rules.

If you are defendant in a case, regardless of black or white, and if you are aquitted, a black person can no more buy or get his good name back then a white a person. Again, IMO.

[martin II]

Originally Posted by William Anthony
Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.


William,

I have to disagree with you. IMO, there are plenty of examples of people of all races that say that while our system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, that is not the case. It is guilty until proven innocent. I don't think race matters.

However, where I do think race plays a huge, huge role in this is that it appears that many white Americans believe that the police would not arrest someone unless they had proof that this person is guility. I think for many people just the thought of the police tampering or planting evidence is just so far out of reality it is laughable to even think they would do something like this. It appears to me that even cops are caught in a lie, people are more then willing to listen to the media justify this behavior by saying that they can't do their job if they have to follow all the rules.

If you are defendant in a case, regardless of black or white, and if you are aquitted, a black person can no more buy or get his good name back then a white a person. Again, IMO.


I do believe that too many people believe that le would not arrest people if they were not guilty.That when some are arrested most are not concerned.
That most people are not privy to how some le frame people and how some DAS force citizens to testify falsy to help their case against some citizens to get convictions. They only become involved when they are the accused.

[Hipcheck]

\

THE black man on death row in texas because 8 withesses were forced by the DA and cops to testify against him. Now all 8 have found the courage to expose the DAS threats to maske them testify ans noww all say they never saw this black man kill anyone.The Supreme Court gave him a new trial.
Texas must be some hell fire place for black men with that trigger happy death penalty.

Troy Davis is the black man and he is on death row in Georgia and not Texas like you said.

It was 7 of 9 witnesses that recanted their trial testimony and not 8 like you said.

The U.S. Supreme Court did not grant Davis a new trial like you stated. The Supreme Court has asked a federal court in Georgia to look into the case.

[martin II]

Troy Davis is the black man and he is on death row in Georgia and not Texas like you said.

It was 7 of 9 witnesses that recanted their trial testimony and not 8 like you said.

The U.S. Supreme Court did not grant Davis a new trial like you stated. The Supreme Court has asked a federal court in Georgia to look into the case.

Texas was another case but thanks.
My point was how some le and DAS work.Forcing people to falsy testify to get comvictions.It does not matter to me what state it was done in.The practice is the same . Since the witness have admitted the truth, you think he will get a new trial?

I have wondered if these type DAS are ever prosecuted for these actions.

Whereas i don't think Martz and Rubin were forced to testify as the Georgia witnesses were, i do believe that they sounded as if they had in their lying testimony in their efforts to support the prosecutions false claims.

[GreenIce]

The Bronco chase negated the presumption of innocence in the minds of some. Well, well, well.:)

William,

IMO, I can understand why many people would have associated the Bronco chase with Simpson's guilt of the murders. However, what I don't understand is why they still hang on to this when the Bronco chase was never introduced as evidence and the DA's would have rather lost limbs then have this admitted into evidence.

When RK read that letter, I thought for sure Simpson was dead or was going to be very shortly. The fact that he did not kill himself, IMO, points to innocence more then guilt.

Also, another important point---even if a person believed Simpson was trying to get away, why would he be running away if he knew the police had no evidence against him? If Simpson was fleeing to escape justice, then he did so on false information leaked by the LAPD and the DA's office.

If Simpson was the killer, he would have known that shoes, weapons and clothes would never been found. He would have known that any evidence that the cops found was left there on purpose--by himself. So why run?

However, I do think Simpson's little jaunt had a lot to do with his guilt on how he treated Nicole and knowing that had he been a better husband, Nicole would be alive. Or had he listened to Cora and perhaps others who went to him and told him that Nicole was in trouble. In that regards, I do think Simpson is guilty.

[Kate Sachel]

POSTED BY GREENICE:

William,

I have to disagree with you. IMO, there are plenty of examples of people of all races that say that while our system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, that is not the case. It is guilty until proven innocent. I don't think race matters.

However, where I do think race plays a huge, huge role in this is that it appears that many white Americans believe that the police would not arrest someone unless they had proof that this person is guility. I think for many people just the thought of the police tampering or planting evidence is just so far out of reality it is laughable to even think they would do something like this. It appears to me that even cops are caught in a lie, people are more then willing to listen to the media justify this behavior by saying that they can't do their job if they have to follow all the rules.

If you are defendant in a case, regardless of black or white, and if you are aquitted, a black person can no more buy or get his good name back then a white a person. Again, IMO.[/QUOTE]

GreenIce,

Here is a shocker, a real one, back to you ... I agree with your comments for the most part.

The accused are handcuffed and tossed into a jail cell, and in some cases remain there awaiting the charges and opportunity to enter a plea and have their day in court.

Take a preliminary hearing for example. It's somewhat of a mini trial before the real action takes place and a judge must determine whether sufficient evidence exists to determine that the accused should stand trial. When the judge determines that probable cause exists in essence what they are saying is that the accused probably did the commit the crime as charged, that the State has provided enough evidence to reasonable convince a jury.

Moving on to law enforcement. I don't believe that the majority of people assume that they always play by the rules, and for every person who does believe that there is also another person who believes that no member of law enforcement would ever play by the rules.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

On the day two people killed nicole and ron the two white people and a black man was thought to have done it a black woman was pushed out of a building to her death and i bet not one poster here knows that.It got zip in the media.

I could go to CNN.com right now and pull up thirty news stories that didn't make my local news coverage, or even CNN's national television news coverage.

In Boston last night, a white woman was run down at an intersection by a white man evading police after robbing a credit union. Do you know about that or did it more than likely get zip in the media outside my local news station?

What's your point?

Kate

[William Anthony]

Originally Posted by William Anthony
Kate,

I do think that I understand what you meant to say. However, Blacks have long understood that they are guilty, if accused, until proven innocent. The opposite is generally applicable to Caucasians, which has been my observation. Simpson being Black followed the premise of my former statement, which is evidenced by many posts on this forum. There is also the stereotypical belief that Blacks commit more crimes than Caucasians, when the statistics only indicate that Blacks are arrested and convicted at a greater rate than Caucasians, as I see those statistics. It is these things on race and how they apply to Simpson is my understanding as to why the poster commented on Susan Smith's conduct. Perhaps, Martin will expound upon the relevance of his comment, if I have left something out or I am wrong.


William,

I have to disagree with you. IMO, there are plenty of examples of people of all races that say that while our system is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, that is not the case. It is guilty until proven innocent. I don't think race matters.

However, where I do think race plays a huge, huge role in this is that it appears that many white Americans believe that the police would not arrest someone unless they had proof that this person is guility. I think for many people just the thought of the police tampering or planting evidence is just so far out of reality it is laughable to even think they would do something like this. It appears to me that even cops are caught in a lie, people are more then willing to listen to the media justify this behavior by saying that they can't do their job if they have to follow all the rules.

If you are defendant in a case, regardless of black or white, and if you are aquitted, a black person can no more buy or get his good name back then a white a person. Again, IMO.

If it was not true, most would have thought the Duke Lacrosse players guilty. I did not mean to imply thatr it happened every time, only that in the majority of cases Blacks are thought guilty and Caucasians are given the presumption of innocence.

[William Anthony]

William,

IMO, I can understand why many people would have associated the Bronco chase with Simpson's guilt of the murders. However, what I don't understand is why they still hang on to this when the Bronco chase was never introduced as evidence and the DA's would have rather lost limbs then have this admitted into evidence.

When RK read that letter, I thought for sure Simpson was dead or was going to be very shortly. The fact that he did not kill himself, IMO, points to innocence more then guilt.

Also, another important point---even if a person believed Simpson was trying to get away, why would he be running away if he knew the police had no evidence against him? If Simpson was fleeing to escape justice, then he did so on false information leaked by the LAPD and the DA's office.

If Simpson was the killer, he would have known that shoes, weapons and clothes would never been found. He would have known that any evidence that the cops found was left there on purpose--by himself. So why run?

However, I do think Simpson's little jaunt had a lot to do with his guilt on how he treated Nicole and knowing that had he been a better husband, Nicole would be alive. Or had he listened to Cora and perhaps others who went to him and told him that Nicole was in trouble. In that regards, I do think Simpson is guilty.

It seemed to be more than an association for some.

[William Anthony]

I could go to CNN.com right now and pull up thirty news stories that didn't make my local news coverage, or even CNN's national television news coverage.

In Boston last night, a white woman was run down at an intersection by a white man evading police after robbing a credit union. Do you know about that or did it more than likely get zip in the media outside my local news station?

What's your point?

Kate

Kate,

I am sure you remember the magazine that darkened the photo of Simpson. While I think that race had entered the case before that incident, it was that incident which reminded everyone of the division between the races. We were taught that a vanilla cake was to be called Angel Food Cake and chocolate cake was called Devil's Food cake. The race card had been played long before the magnificent one entered the case, imho. The fact that a famous Black athlete was accused of brutally murdering two you Caucasians overshadowed all other news stories as race was indelibly pressed onto the minds of America.

[martin II]

The facts are oj went from RK house to nicoles grave to his house.Where was he running to. When le first saw him he was riding around the highway.
I never saw that car headed for mexico or Canada.Where was he actually going to hide. In LA?

[martin II]

Kate,

I am sure you remember the magazine that darkened the photo of Simpson. While I think that race had entered the case before that incident, it was that incident which reminded everyone of the division between the races. We were taught that a vanilla cake was to be called Angel Food Cake and chocolate cake was called Devil's Food cake. The race card had been played long before the magnificent one entered the case, imho. The fact that a famous Black athlete was accused of brutally murdering two you Caucasians overshadowed all other news stories as race was indelibly pressed onto the minds of America.

It is the hugh accumulation of "silent" identifications like you posted that over periods of time enforce racist attitudes.The good cowboy wears white the bad cowboy wears black.There are so many rejections of all things black.Many whites have no time for these issues as they see no harm having being raised to accept them since they represented no slight towards them.They were on the side of the accepted color.

It was either newsweek or times that darkened oj picture. they said something like it was done to make it realistic or something like that. when i saw it i immediately said "here they go again" telling white people he is black in case some of you don't know that. It pissed me off . I haven't purchased that mag since.

[martin II]

I am pleased to see that S Smith's post remain as it shows rush to judgement
and race was present as it was in the oj case.

[William Anthony]

It is the hugh accumulation of "silent" identifications like you posted that over periods of time enforce racist attitudes.The good cowboy wears white the bad cowboy wears black.There are so many rejections of all things black.Many whites have no time for these issues as they see no harm having being raised to accept them since they represented no slight towards them.They were on the side of the accepted color.

It was either newsweek or times that darkened oj picture. they said something like it was done to make it realistic or something like that. when i saw it i immediately said "here they go again" telling white people he is black in case some of you don't know that. It pissed me off . I haven't purchased that mag since.

It was an obvious attempt to make Simpson appear more menacing, imho. I wonder, if Obama would be President, if he were not of mixed parentage.

[tv]

I could go to CNN.com right now and pull up thirty news stories that didn't make my local news coverage, or even CNN's national television news coverage.

In Boston last night, a white woman was run down at an intersection by a white man evading police after robbing a credit union. Do you know about that or did it more than likely get zip in the media outside my local news station?

What's your point?

Kate

Kate, I don't buy the assertion that the murders of Ron and Nicole made the news because they were white and OJ Simpson black. It's obvious to me that it made the news because of his celebrity just as many other cases make the news for the same reason.

[William Anthony]

No one said that the case made the news, because Simpson was Black and the murder victims were Caucasian. The differences in race only acted as a catalyst to keep America's attention, as evidence by the darkening of Simpson's photo by the magazine. The differences in race have always been forced upon Americans in not so subtle ways.

[weezer]

Kate, I don't buy the assertion that the murders of Ron and Nicole made the news because they were white and OJ Simpson black. It's obvious to me that it made the news because of his celebrity just as many other cases make the news for the same reason.

if that were the case, how many white on black/black on white murders occurred during that timeframe that never made the news? orenthal was an adhoc celebrity and once the bronco chase/suicide note were televised, the trial became the first reality show.