Ray Gricar - Missing DA

[J. J. in Phila]

This is a thread dedicated to the disappearance of Ray Gricar, reported missing on 4/15/05. Note that the fourth year anniversary is approaching.

[One2Snoop]

Wow, :eek: has it been that long and still no trace?

I thought we used to have a discussion thread on this. I'll check around and see if I can find it.


:seeya:

[One2Snoop]

No luck. If its been 4 years I must be thinking of when CL and CTV were still together on the same link. CL split from CTV back in Feb. 2006.


Thanks for the update J.J. :seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

I inherited the Centre Daily Times blog, so it is still in the public eye, sort of. :)

There has been some additional information out in the last 18 months; I have managed to compile a rough witness list.

[One2Snoop]

I inherited the Centre Daily Times blog, so it is still in the public eye, sort of. :)

There has been some additional information out in the last 18 months; I have managed to compile a rough witness list.

I'm curious, do you think he was murdered or committed suicide?
I hope you'll post your additional info along with the link to your blog. I'm interested in reading what you have. Thanks. :seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

Here is the blog: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/ It is called Sporadic Comments.

if you go back far enough, you'll she how I got it. It was a choice between me and nobody. :(

Right now, I give the odds at being 48% Walkaway, 43% Murder, 8% Suicide, and 1% something else. I did explain the "something else," but I'll be discussing the other three, in detail, after 4/15/05.

[One2Snoop]

Here is the blog: http://www.centredaily.com/opinion/blogs/ It is called Sporadic Comments.

if you go back far enough, you'll she how I got it. It was a choice between me and nobody. :(

Right now, I give the odds at being 48% Walkaway, 43% Murder, 8% Suicide, and 1% something else. I did explain the "something else," but I'll be discussing the other three, in detail, after 4/15/05.

I admit I've not kept up on this case and basically shelved it into the cold case file but I have to ask why you won't be discussing anything until after April 15th? Just curious but are you one of those people who wait til the nth hour to file their income tax and that's why you can't get to it until after April 15th? :confused: or what??????

In the meantime, I'll attempt to read up on the case until we hear from you further? :shrug: 48% walkaway and 43% murder? Hmmmm? :confused: I guess we've waited 4 years, we can certainly wait for your input after April 15th. :patriot: :seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

I have an extension (and the US owes me money). :)

Actually, with a few exceptions, I've been trying to lay out the known evidence (and some details were unknown). I wanted the theories, and the percentages, to be based on the evidence. That was the first reason.

The second reason is because I want focus on what LE could or should do around 4/15/05. After that, I want to move into the possibilities.

[Willoughby]

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?

[Serendipitous1]

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?Your assertion and logic escape me Willoughby. I do not remember reading any such thing about the cigarette scent and ash. And though the simplest answer may very well be the correct one, I do not believe there is anything "simple" about this case.

[J. J. in Phila]

With the fourth anniversary fast approaching in just weeks, I think the reason Mr. Gricar is not much of a concern here in Centre County is the lack of evidence.
And, it seems to me anyway, what is known in this disappearance points more toward suicide or walkaway than it does to murder.
The laptop points to suicide or walkaway as well. I've read where the cigarette scent and ash in the Mini Cooper was so faint it could have been left by a smoker walking by the car when the window was down.
Perhaps the most obvious answer in this case is the correct one?
And I've read online debates about whether Mr. Gricar could have been hiding money away to fund a disappearance, or hiding money from two failed marriages. That would make it all the more significant he disappeared on Tax Day, would it not?

There is no lack of evidence; a summary of what has been reported should be up by the end of the week. Hint: It doesn't point in one direction.

The answer might be complex.

[Willoughby]

Your assertion and logic escape me Willoughby. I do not remember reading any such thing about the cigarette scent and ash. And though the simplest answer may very well be the correct one, I do not believe there is anything "simple" about this case.

It was in the CDT's Q&A on Gricar, which also has since disappeared. I'm a big fan of your posts, S1. And I congratulate you on your efforts to see someone capable elected Centre County DA. Stacy Parks Miller is the best hope for ever seeing an answer as to what happened to Ray Gricar.

[Willoughby]

There is no lack of evidence; a summary of what has been reported should be up by the end of the week. Hint: It doesn't point in one direction.

The answer might be complex.

I'm looking forward to it, J.J.

And no, I wouldn't expect anything to point in one direction. Any theory it seems can be argued successfully in this case. And that's what draws me in. How can a man simply drop off of the face of the earth like Mr. Gricar did?

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm looking forward to it, J.J.

And no, I wouldn't expect anything to point in one direction. Any theory it seems can be argued successfully in this case. And that's what draws me in. How can a man simply drop off of the face of the earth like Mr. Gricar did?

Some more so than others. ;)

[Serendipitous1]

It was in the CDT's Q&A on Gricar, which also has since disappeared. I'm a big fan of your posts, S1. And I congratulate you on your efforts to see someone capable elected Centre County DA. Stacy Parks Miller is the best hope for ever seeing an answer as to what happened to Ray Gricar.Thanks...and thanks...and I do agree about SPM.

I see you are a fellow TZ fan (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0Aju0d0Ewfo/SARakd-pc_I/AAAAAAAAA08/fbuvS_4d1k4/A+Stop+at+Willoughby_10X7.jpg)...maybe!? The story line is interesting...burned-out businessman, overwhelmed by job and wife, recurring dream about a train which makes an unscheduled stop at a town called “Willoughby”, with a twist at the end of course...it is The Twilight Zone after all. Any intended symbolism there?

[Politigal]

I created a repository of links to news & archives, comments from colleagues, photos and timeline in the Ray Gricar case:

http://politigal.googlepages.com/

and Ray Gricar's colleague of almost 20 yrs (who is also currently running for DA in Centre County) - J. Karen Arnold - also created a site with some good history on how Gricar ran his office, etc:

http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/

and of course, Ray Gricar's family website is here:

http://raygricar.com/

[Willoughby]

Thanks...and thanks...and I do agree about SPM.

I see you are a fellow TZ fan (http://lh3.ggpht.com/_0Aju0d0Ewfo/SARakd-pc_I/AAAAAAAAA08/fbuvS_4d1k4/A+Stop+at+Willoughby_10X7.jpg)...maybe!? The story line is interesting...burned-out businessman, overwhelmed by job and wife, recurring dream about a train which makes an unscheduled stop at a town called “Willoughby”, with a twist at the end of course...it is The Twilight Zone after all. Any intended symbolism there?

That's where it's from, yes. I love that episode. The TZ kind of ambiguity at the shocking ending. Is the businessman alive and for the first time, happy, or is he dead? Or did he really find a place where he could slow down and live his life "full measure?" So, the symbolism was partly intended. But sometimes don't we all yearn for a town like the fictional Willoughby? I do.

For the longest time that's what I thought became of RG, that at the end of his career, after two marriages, he just wanted to get off a world that was going by too fast for him. I thought he severed all his ties, financially and otherwise, and ended it as his brother had years before. I thought the divers just somehow missed the body.

Now, I really have no idea what became of him, as if he too walked into the Twilight Zone. Or someone put him there.

[J. J. in Phila]

That's where it's from, yes. I love that episode. The TZ kind of ambiguity at the shocking ending. Is the businessman alive and for the first time, happy, or is he dead? Or did he really find a place where he could slow down and live his life "full measure?" So, the symbolism was partly intended. But sometimes don't we all yearn for a town like the fictional Willoughby? I do.

For the longest time that's what I thought became of RG, that at the end of his career, after two marriages, he just wanted to get off a world that was going by too fast for him. I thought he severed all his ties, financially and otherwise, and ended it as his brother had years before. I thought the divers just somehow missed the body.

Now, I really have no idea what became of him, as if he too walked into the Twilight Zone. Or someone put him there.

"Little Girl Lost" might be more appropriate. :)

My first thoughts were "probably suicide, possibly murder, or an accident." In all cases, I expected the body to have eventually been fished out of the Susquehanna. It hasn't been.

[Serendipitous1]

Guess the other board is in holiday mode (http://boards.insessiontrials.com/showthread.php?p=12987088&posted=1#post12987088).

This is just a video clip from 4/18/05 (http://imagesource.cnn.com/imagesource/ViewAsset.action?viewAsset=&_sourcePage=%2FWEB-INF%2Fpages%2Fbrowseaction%2FsearchResults.jsp&cnnId=03660753&searchResultsActionBeanClass=com.cnn.imagesource.a ction.search.BrowseActionBean&damId=3660753). There are some other clips and stills, if you search around this site.

[Willoughby]

And so it has come to pass ...

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228044.html

[Willoughby]

And so it has come to pass ...

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1228044.html

Note the careful wording by the detective, especially this line from the story.

"It was believed that pending Mr. Gricar’s retirement, he may have wanted to erase his county issued laptop computer prior to returning the laptop to the District Attorney’s office.”

It "WAS" believed. All past tense, most certainly, for a reason. As I'd posted on the other boards last week, the investigation is over. It is just a matter of when the official announcement is made.

[J. J. in Phila]

Note the careful wording by the detective, especially this line from the story.

"It was believed that pending Mr. Gricar’s retirement, he may have wanted to erase his county issued laptop computer prior to returning the laptop to the District Attorney’s office.”

It "WAS" believed. All past tense, most certainly, for a reason. As I'd posted on the other boards last week, the investigation is over. It is just a matter of when the official announcement is made.

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

[Willoughby]

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

If anything has become clear during these past two days, it is that police know far more than they are saying, J.J. If he did indeed get out of Lewisburg, police most likely know how he did it. There is a reason this is coming out now. The endgame seems to have begun.

And if I was the "helper," as I've seen you describe it, I'd be very, very worried right now.

[Willoughby]

So, if Mr. Gricar walked away, how did he get out of Lewisburg?

Answer that question, and produce evidence to back it up, and the case may be over. You might not, but LE could potentially. I'm just wondering if they have the evidence.

What do you make of the fact police kept this information away from the family, and did not even bother to call them after the press release went out? Tony Gricar had to call them after learning of the revelations from the Centre Daily Times.

That too, speaks volumes.

[J. J. in Phila]

What do you make of the fact police kept this information away from the family, and did not even bother to call them after the press release went out? Tony Gricar had to call them after learning of the revelations from the Centre Daily Times.

That too, speaks volumes.

Yes it does, as does the day.

[Willoughby]

I feel like I'm talking to myself here. So ... :seeya:

[Serendipitous1]

If anything has become clear during these past two days, it is that police know far more than they are saying, J.J. If he did indeed get out of Lewisburg, police most likely know how he did it. There is a reason this is coming out now. The endgame seems to have begun.

And if I was the "helper," as I've seen you describe it, I'd be very, very worried right now.It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

[J. J. in Phila]

I feel like I'm talking to myself here. So ... :seeya:


You are not and I hope you stay. :)

[J. J. in Phila]

It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

They can "cut the cord" when they have a knife. This wasn't the knife.

I have the distinct feeling that I hear the sound of steel on a whetstone.

[Serendipitous1]

They can "cut the cord" when they have a knife. This wasn't the knife.

I have the distinct feeling that I hear the sound of steel on a whetstone.So you are thinking 'door #2', with #3 thrown in as a bonus?

[J. J. in Phila]

So you are thinking 'door #2', with #3 thrown in as a bonus?

Provide some evidence of how RFG got out of Lewisburg, and I'll choose a door.

[Willoughby]

It is the timing of this particular revelation which is interesting. It would seem to have been more appropriate last September when Gricar's apparent interest in erasing hard drives was revealed.

Do you figure LE is posturing so they can cut the cord (as in the Wiley case)? Or are you thinking LE is laying the foundation for some grander announcement? Or is this a pre-election attempt to undercut criticism of the way MM has handled the case?

I find the timing extremely disturbing, Serendipitous1. It is solely my hunch, but I believe all of this is a well orchestrated ploy by Michael Madeira to do several things.

Again, I feel this is the beginning of the endgame for this investigation. Well, I feel the investigation already is over. Like I'd said quite correctly on the other boards before being run off well before the latest stunner, the rabbit started coming out of the hat at the infamous hard drive press conference. They are cutting the cord. They just haven't whipped out THEE knife yet. We're getting small doses to make walkaway more palatable, for when Gricar joins Mel Wiley.

I read this story with great interest ...

http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841

SW says he hopes this will generate more leads? What, do they believe Gricar is alive and this pressure will force him out of hiding, wherever he is?

And in this interview, he mentions bringing about closure for law enforcement. For law enforcement.

Madeira needs to make a splash to keep his job. Solving the Gricar case with or without a body would be big. So police are releasing "new" information they actually have known for years, easing the public into the icy waters so to speak, getting them used to the idea. The big news is coming. They have something big they're going to drop on us at a more opportune time for Michael Madeira.

This "new" information - this all makes me sick - also discredits Bob Buehner to an extent. Buehner is a massive political thorn in Madeira's side, a thorn, how did you once put it, "One-Term Mike," very much wants to see removed.

MM is pulling the strings here, and MR and SW are merely his puppets. They have to be, as MM is the chief law enforcement officer in this county, for better or for worse.

The thing is, until LE is honest with us for a change, we'll never know. They lie to us, again and again and again. They tell us they have nothing new. As we now know, that is just another lie. So as LE piles it up, we are essentially wasting our time S1. Even when they do announce Gricar walked away from his life, how to we believe that, with LE's credibility being nil? :flamemad:

As my screen name implies, I thought he committed suicide. But I no longer trust LE. So how will we ever know?

[J. J. in Phila]

The timing was political, obviously.

I trust Rickard, however, he is holding back.

If this is walkaway, there will be evidence. My bet is that he knows if that evidence exists or not.

My bet is that MM is re-elected.

There is still one reasonably good possibility for murder out there.

[Willoughby]

The timing was political, obviously.

I trust Rickard, however, he is holding back.

If this is walkaway, there will be evidence. My bet is that he knows if that evidence exists or not.

My bet is that MM is re-elected.

There is still one reasonably good possibility for murder out there.

I'm with you on all points. Sadly, I now agree MM will be re-elected. I'd tried to explain why SPM was our best hope, but was rebuked by certain posters who are rooting for a dark horse who, very sadly, can't beat MM.

But then again, Kurt Warner was bagging groceries before he went on to win the Super Bowl. Anything's possible I guess.

Remember, MM also has the re-trial murder case coming up of Andrew Rogers. Yes, he withheld evidence. But once he convicts Rogers again, the public won't care. Madeira will have won another trial. And the electorate tends to have a rather short memory.

Then he'll announce the Gricar disappearance as solved. Hello second term.

[Willoughby]

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ... :(

[Willoughby]

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ... :(

Now that I look, I don't think any of the candidates said a word on this. Anywhere. Please let me know if you find anything.

[Serendipitous1]

You are no doubt right about Madeira's re-election strategy...but I would not throw the towel in just yet, Willoughby. There are several issues on which MM will be challenged. And I believe his mishandling of this investigation should be one of them...even (or especially) if he should declare 'closure'.

It will be interesting to see where the endorsements fall and when. And it will be interesting to see the registration numbers in the fall...students back and all.

But the Democrats absolutely must put the strongest contender on the ballot. So for the moment, I am mostly interested in watching them. And what I have 'seen' lately (particularly the last couple of days) is a most uneasy, disconcerting silence.

[Willoughby]

You are no doubt right about Madeira's re-election strategy...but I would not throw the towel in just yet, Willoughby. There are several issues on which MM will be challenged. And I believe his mishandling of this investigation should be one of them...even (or especially) if he should declare 'closure'.

It will be interesting to see where the endorsements fall and when. And it will be interesting to see the registration numbers in the fall...students back and all.

But the Democrats absolutely must put the strongest contender on the ballot. So for the moment, I am mostly interested in watching them. And what I have 'seen' lately (particularly the last couple of days) is a most uneasy, disconcerting silence.

It is my deepest and most sincere hope that those of us following Ray Gricar's case will unite in backing a Democratic candidate and then doing all possible to help him or her win. I've made it no secret I'm behind Stacy Parks Miller. Everything is riding on this. If MM holds on, any hope of finding the truth about what happened April 14-15 will be lost.

[J. J. in Phila]

I half expected Karen Arnold to say something by now in this whole Ray Gricar walked off debacle. But nothing ...

http://www.arnoldforda.org/index.html

I see an interesting MM campaign strategy forming. Announce Gricar vanished of his own accord or claim he committed suicide over some shameful aspect of his life he tried so desperately to erase, fry, water-damage, etc., etc. Once that is announced, blame him for hiring Lance Marshall, then go negative on JKA and blame her on Ray too ...

He could also argue his office was so shorthanded thanks to Steve Sloane being out on medical leave most of the time. Guess who hired SS? I'll give you one guess ... :(

Your "bagging groceries" comment was most apporpos. :)

The strategy, if JKA is the nominee, is to paint her as a "conspiracy theorist." Whether or not she really is one is immaterial.

You mentioned her fascination with me. If you do live in State College, I'd bet you could find my real identity in 48 hours (and I'd wager you already know it). If you went to Penn State, make that 48 minutes, with a lunch break. Madeira can very easily use that to illustrate the point. I can't even stop him.

I don't think the truth will be lost, if we are vigilant and make sure the conclusions are based on fact. But, I fully expect there will be more to come.

[Willoughby]

Your "bagging groceries" comment was most apporpos. :)

The strategy, if JKA is the nominee, is to paint her as a "conspiracy theorist." Whether or not she really is one is immaterial.

You mentioned her fascination with me. If you do live in State College, I'd bet you could find my real identity in 48 hours (and I'd wager you already know it). If you went to Penn State, make that 48 minutes, with a lunch break. Madeira can very easily use that to illustrate the point. I can't even stop him.

I don't think the truth will be lost, if we are vigilant and make sure the conclusions are based on fact. But, I fully expect there will be more to come.

Oh, I'm sure more is coming. But those who believe Gricar was murdered are going to be furious when it does.

[J. J. in Phila]

Oh, I'm sure more is coming. But those who believe Gricar was murdered are going to be furious when it does.

Mercifully, I'm an agnostic on what happened.

I just want to see solid evidence.

[Rhododendron]

Read today's "The Daily Collegian" article on the views of the candidates on the disappearance of Ray Gricar. Some 6 hrs. later, there is still nothing in the CDT about this. Also note the remarks by MM; nothing new, same old stuff, with the exception of how he felt when he learned Mr. Gricar disappeared.

[Willoughby]

Read today's "The Daily Collegian" article on the views of the candidates on the disappearance of Ray Gricar. Some 6 hrs. later, there is still nothing in the CDT about this. Also note the remarks by MM; nothing new, same old stuff, with the exception of how he felt when he learned Mr. Gricar disappeared.

The Collegian, a bunch of amateurs, out mans and out performs their professional counterparts. The PSU students out-reported the CDT on this, clearly. The CDT doesn't seem to care about Gricar, based on the reporter's regurgitation of MM's every word without questioning the discrepancies. And there were a ton of them.

MM is saying the same old same old, although I have to give him credit. He changed it somewhat, contradicting himself and Rickard without explanation. The candidates have their hands tied. It's clear police know more than they are saying. So they may be holding off being too critical to avoid looking bad in the near future.

Just as MM planned ...

[Willoughby]

It's a shame I wasn't welcome elsewhere. Politigal raised some extremely valid points. One thing I'd like to ask is this: Was Ray prosecuting any cases that involved "frying" a hard drive, and that he may have been researching from home? Perhaps a child porn case where the defendant was trying to destroy evidence but failed?

[Serendipitous1]

Read today's "The Daily Collegian" article on the views of the candidates on the disappearance of Ray Gricar. Some 6 hrs. later, there is still nothing in the CDT about this. Also note the remarks by MM; nothing new, same old stuff, with the exception of how he felt when he learned Mr. Gricar disappeared.MM may have had an initial sense of disbelief (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/17/candidates_vow_to_find_missing.aspx) when he first learned the news (apparently on Saturday, 4/16/05, while out campaigning). What he told a reporter was: "It's something you never think will happen. But, being in law enforcement, it's a risk you have to take." (CDT, "District attorney reported missing", 4/17/05). Clearly the "risk" referred to was the possibility of foul play. Still, he had hopes that the disappearance was only the result of miscommunication (http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2005/04/04-18-05tdc/04-18-05dnews-01.asp).

Now granted (before Willoughby chimes in), that was in the first day(s) of the investigation and well before MM became DA. MM has now had well over 3 years of contact with the case itself. I think I know some of what is coming...and it will likely make some people rethink things. 'Furious' may even be an apt anticipatory reaction from some quarters. But how compelling (believable) the information will be is another matter.

In terms of the upcoming election, as Willoughby pointed out, "Even when they do announce Gricar walked away from his life, how [do] we believe that, with LE's credibility being nil?" And, "If MM holds on, any hope of finding the truth about what happened April 14-15 will be lost."

I never thought any of the candidates would be in a position to debate MM over the credibility of an investigation which they have had no opportunity to review. Politics can get very ugly...and the candidates need to choose their battles wisely. But they should all know how to hammer MM, while keeping the "blood" off their clothes.

[Willoughby]

MM is on a roll....

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/1234660.html

Still doesn't change the fact that MM knew about Starr and his testimony and covered it up. When it comes to MM, what is the truth?

[Politigal]

On the reported computer searches that they attribute to Gricar...law enforcement really cannot prove who the computer user was....no way.

It could easily have been girlfriend Patty Fornicola since she shared the home and the computer.

[Willoughby]

On the reported computer searches that they attribute to Gricar...law enforcement really cannot prove who the computer user was....no way.

It could easily have been girlfriend Patty Fornicola since she shared the home and the computer.

That has me baffled as well. I've tried researching ways LE could know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Ray was the one doing those searches. I cannot find a way it is possible. But again, they clearly know far more than they are saying. There must be something, and there must be a reason they have not explained themselves. But what is it?

The press also is giving LE a pass on this. I have a feeling something is afoot, a continuation of this endgame I've been pontificating about.

[Serendipitous1]

It's a shame I wasn't welcome elsewhere. Politigal raised some extremely valid points. One thing I'd like to ask is this: Was Ray prosecuting any cases that involved "frying" a hard drive, and that he may have been researching from home? Perhaps a child porn case where the defendant was trying to destroy evidence but failed?Good point, Willoughby. It could explain all of the supposed searches. I do not recall reading that RG's computer was a notebook, which apparently is lighter, more compact than a laptop. And if I knew nothing of this case I would think water damage to a notebook computer would refer to spilling a glass of something, or maybe being in a flood, but not intentionally drowning...although I suppose all 3 would have a similar affect.

But there can be no doubt about the nuance MM wanted conveyed. This could be the flowchart hanging in his campaign headquarters: MM --> SW --> MR --> SW --> MM --> SG --> CDT --> AP --> public opinion! Too bad he did not read the fine-print warning at the bottom: "crap in...crap out" (more, technical, computer-geek talk).

I do not see any case followers being particularly made to feel welcome anywhere on the Net (except maybe here...for the time being). Just put on your waterproof 'high-tops'...good for sloshing through the goo and protecting against ankle-biters.

[Rhododendron]

Nice to know Madeira is making news in the CDT. Whether the guy is guilty or not, Madeira withheld evidence (does the name Mike Nifong ring a bell?)!

Too bad the CDT, the 'local hometown newspaper' has neglected to cover the story by "The Daily Collegian", which appeared just before 5:00 AM this morning; you remember, the coverage with remarks by the candidates for District Attorney of Centre Co. Guess it isn't important to the CDT because MM had nothing to say . . . oh, yeah, he did remark on how he felt upon hearing RG was missing . . . and the other candidates did have things to say. A little "home cookin'" going on here?????

[J. J. in Phila]

Mike Nifong was re-elected by the voters.

I understand why the CDT didn't cover the comments; most comments, from the challengers were, "I'll look at the case file."

I also understand why they said that; none have looked at the case files. They remain sealed.

That gives MM an advantage.

[Politigal]

I'm very curious as to why law enforcement apparently had not told the family about these searches.

[Serendipitous1]

I'm very curious as to why law enforcement apparently had not told the family about these searches.I am very curious as to why the family has not jumped down law enforcement's throat...with both feet.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm very curious as to why law enforcement apparently had not told the family about these searches.

Short answer, everybody has an agenda.

TG posted that there would be no sympathy if this was walkaway. (I disagree with him, a bit.) He has a motive in trying to downplay this, even if he's not involved in it or is completely in the dark.

There is another problem. The best argument against this being walkaway is that RFG didn't have a financial advantage in walking away. To make it successfully, he'd have to release all the financial data. He doesn't want to (and I agree with his stated motives).

If there is some reasonably solid evidence that RFG walked away, I'm out of here. This wasn't it. :)

[Politigal]

I am very curious as to why the family has not jumped down law enforcement's throat...with both feet.

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

[J. J. in Phila]

There's really no way law enforcement can prove who did the computer searches on the home computer. And that home computer was purchased in approx Jan 2005, which is the same time frame that Gricar's girlfriend Patty Fornicola changed positions from a Victim's Advocate to a clerical position.

She had a laptop in both....so, perhaps *she* was the one who actually did the searches, since she probably had to turn the VA laptop back in before moving to the clerical spot.

First, RFG asked about erasing the drive 14-16 months before he disappeared.

Second, it depends of who was had access to the laptop when the searches were made. If they are time stamped, and there is evidence that PEF was someplace else at the time, that explodes that theory.

[Politigal]

First, RFG asked about erasing the drive 14-16 months before he disappeared.

Second, it depends of who was had access to the laptop when the searches were made. If they are time stamped, and there is evidence that PEF was someplace else at the time, that explodes that theory.

"access to the laptop when the searches were made" - ???

The searches were done on the *home* computer JJ.

[J. J. in Phila]

"access to the laptop when the searches were made" - ???

The searches were done on the *home* computer JJ.

Correct, that should have been his home computer. Still if they were made at a time when PEF was someplace else, that explodes this theory.

[Willoughby]

First, RFG asked about erasing the drive 14-16 months before he disappeared.

Second, it depends of who was had access to the laptop when the searches were made. If they are time stamped, and there is evidence that PEF was someplace else at the time, that explodes that theory.

Perhaps the searches were done during those times Gricar claimed to have gone home to take naps during the work days? Somehow, police know Gricar made those searches. And there must be a reason why they're not saying how they know.

[Willoughby]

I am very curious as to why the family has not jumped down law enforcement's throat...with both feet.

I've wondered about this as well. Perhaps there is a schism in the family. TG has let LE have it over their handling of the case and repeatedly called for MM's buddy TC to take over.

I remember reading LG's interview for the third anniversary (I can't find it in their archives) in the CDT, where she broke with TG and essentially praised the efforts of law enforcement to this point. Odd. Very odd.

[Willoughby]

I never was big on talking to myself. All the fun seems to be on the other boards. Good luck all. :seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

I never was big on talking to myself. All the fun seems to be on the other boards. Good luck all. :seeya:

You are not talking to yourself, and I've made reference to your posts, favorably, on other boards.

I think you are making a great deal of sense.

[Willoughby]

You are not talking to yourself, and I've made reference to your posts, favorably, on other boards.

I think you are making a great deal of sense.

I'm sorry J.J., but it's been two days now and not one posted comment here. I was not welcome amongst the conspiracy theorists on the other boards for some reason.

On those other boards, the poster "OOBrett" is actually praising the poster "2-B" and lamenting the banishment of "UndertheRadar," not realizing they are one and the same. I was hoping for intelligent discussion.

I appreciate what you said, but I'm out. :seeya:

[Serendipitous1]

I'm sorry J.J., but it's been two days now and not one posted comment here. I was not welcome amongst the conspiracy theorists on the other boards for some reason.

On those other boards, the poster "OOBrett" is actually praising the poster "2-B" and lamenting the banishment of "UndertheRadar," not realizing they are one and the same. I was hoping for intelligent discussion.

I appreciate what you said, but I'm out. :seeya:And when there is nothing left of Gricar to argue about, some turn to gossip on other web sites for their daily conspiracy fix. Pretty sad, all the way around.

[Serendipitous1]

Searchers combed the Lewisburg scene the first week...not looking just for Gricar, but for any evidence that might be connected. They were aware of the missing laptop at some point that week...even reporting a computer-part find. Divers searched the river on Friday, 4/22/05. But nothing related to Gricar was found.

At DD’s request, the Northumberland and Union county sheriffs organized another search of the river, using a cadaver dog from Dauphin County. This search was conducted on May 5, between the dam at Sunbury and the railroad bridge at Lewisburg. The UC Sheriff noted that the water level had dropped a foot and a half from when the initial search was conducted, and that the water clarity was “perfect” that day. In fact the river was then down about a foot and a half at Lewisburg, from the level on 4/15/05. But it was only down a few inches from the level on the date of the diver search.

They searched the banks and islands, and crossed the river back and forth in a boat. Again nothing related to Gricar was found. The sheriff noted more recreational craft out on the river, and that the state police had reportedly issued a mandate...not to touch anything found in the river that could possibly be linked to Gricar, since it might turn the area into a crime scene.

All of that activity on the river and nothing was found...in May, or June, or July, as the water level continued to drop...until midmorning on Saturday, July 30, when two fishermen supposedly happened upon Gricar’s laptop computer (sans hard drive) under the traffic bridge. Apparently not getting (or forgetting) the “mandate”, they scooped the computer out of water which had been twice before searched by trained officials.

While a state police forensic computer expert examined the laptop, the dive team returned that weekend, looking for the missing hard drive and any other evidence. This time they appear to have been joined by a top-notch underwater criminal investigation team out of Carlisle (reference a photo depicting www.CrimeSceneDivers.org) (http://imagesource.cnn.com/imagesource/ViewAsset.action?viewAsset=&_sourcePage=%2FWEB-INF%2Fpages%2Fbrowseaction%2FsearchResults.jsp&cnnId=03659939&searchResultsActionBeanClass=com.cnn.imagesource.a ction.search.BrowseActionBean&damId=3659939). The river bank and channel behind the park was also completely stripped of the heavy brush and flood debris...an indication that this area was thoroughly searched. But once again nothing was found.

CrimeSceneDivers.org (and/or .com) no longer exists online, but can be found in Internet archives. Some information is also here (http://tenfootstop.blogspot.com/2006/04/underwater-criminal-investigation.html) and here (http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Zaengle_Jack_188898788.aspx). The team uses sophisticated tools to locate evidence underwater, even buried in silt. All of that manpower and equipment and the hard drive remained "lost" for another two months, until stumbled upon, in plain view, by (supposedly) a couple of stone-skippers. And how much lower was the water level then? Down about an inch from date of the laptop find.

Amazingly bad searching or bad luck...unless perhaps the laptop and hard drive were not there to find when the official searches were performed? And if they were not there on April 15/16, what might that suggest in terms of the 3 prominent theories?

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry J.J., but it's been two days now and not one posted comment here. I was not welcome amongst the conspiracy theorists on the other boards for some reason.

On those other boards, the poster "OOBrett" is actually praising the poster "2-B" and lamenting the banishment of "UndertheRadar," not realizing they are one and the same. I was hoping for intelligent discussion.

I appreciate what you said, but I'm out. :seeya:

I have a feeling there is more than one "one and the same," in that conversation.

You are more than welcome here, as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy your posts.

You are more than welcome on my blog, and if you ever with to e-mail me, I'm sure you could find my contact information.

[Serendipitous1]

I have a feeling there is more than one "one and the same," in that conversation.

You are more than welcome here, as far as I'm concerned. I enjoy your posts.

You are more than welcome on my blog, and if you ever with to e-mail me, I'm sure you could find my contact information.I have a feeling "the gang's" (we are) all here...just not many posting yet...right OOB?

[Serendipitous1]

I've wondered about this as well. Perhaps there is a schism in the family. TG has let LE have it over their handling of the case and repeatedly called for MM's buddy TC to take over.

I remember reading LG's interview for the third anniversary (I can't find it in their archives) in the CDT, where she broke with TG and essentially praised the efforts of law enforcement to this point. Odd. Very odd.I have a copy of that article, along with just about every other online article ever posted by the CDT in this matter. I have always thought that LG has been far too passive. But she is not my daughter, TG is not my nephew, and I am not Ray Gricar...or missing. So I do try not to unduly judge them from my perspective. They are dealing with a real-world tragedy. I deal only with uninformed, detached hypotheticals.

[J. J. in Phila]

I have a copy of that article, along with just about every other online article ever posted by the CDT in this matter. I have always thought that LG has been far too passive. But she is not my daughter, TG is not my nephew, and I am not Ray Gricar...or missing. So I do try not to unduly judge them from my perspective. They are dealing with a real-world tragedy. I deal only with uninformed, detached hypotheticals.

People deal with things differently. I got laughs at my father's memorial service (and he would have approved) and cried after probate. The latter had nothing to do with money, just the finality of the situation.

I won't judge LG too harshly, at least at this point.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm sorry J.J., but it's been two days now and not one posted comment here. I was not welcome amongst the conspiracy theorists on the other boards for some reason.

On those other boards, the poster "OOBrett" is actually praising the poster "2-B" and lamenting the banishment of "UndertheRadar," not realizing they are one and the same. I was hoping for intelligent discussion.

I appreciate what you said, but I'm out. :seeya:

The reason you were not welcome with the "conspiracy theorists on the other boards" is you were not one of them. That is why a lot of posters have left.

[Willoughby]

People deal with things differently. I got laughs at my father's memorial service (and he would have approved) and cried after probate. The latter had nothing to do with money, just the finality of the situation.

I won't judge LG too harshly, at least at this point.

Very true. So they say you cannot know someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes. I definitely would not want to be in LG's shoes.

[Willoughby]

The reason you were not welcome with the "conspiracy theorists on the other boards" is you were not one of them. That is why a lot of posters have left.

I see how they've even turned the District Attorney's Race thread into a train wreck. So sad.

I admire though how you and S1 always look to the greater good. You may disagree, but you can agree to disagree. You've both made me think, and re-think my stance on what happened to Ray. You've drawn me to post here. Perhaps here we can set a new standard for debate and thought provoking discussion?

And S1, I don't believe the laptop and hard drive were in the river when the divers searched it, for all of the reasons you listed. And that shoots down my suicide theory, the basis for my screen name.

[J. J. in Phila]

I see how they've even turned the District Attorney's Race thread into a train wreck. So sad.

I admire though how you and S1 always look to the greater good. You may disagree, but you can agree to disagree. You've both made me think, and re-think my stance on what happened to Ray. You've drawn me to post here. Perhaps here we can set a new standard for debate and thought provoking discussion?

And S1, I don't believe the laptop and hard drive were in the river when the divers searched it, for all of the reasons you listed. And that shoots down my suicide theory, the basis for my screen name.

I basically am torn between murder and walkaway. It's about 90% likely it was one of those two.

Yes, the conspiracy theorists are at work. Maybe they should join "Donald Fenton" from the State College board.

[Serendipitous1]

I see how they've even turned the District Attorney's Race thread into a train wreck. So sad.

I admire though how you and S1 always look to the greater good. You may disagree, but you can agree to disagree. You've both made me think, and re-think my stance on what happened to Ray. You've drawn me to post here. Perhaps here we can set a new standard for debate and thought provoking discussion?

And S1, I don't believe the laptop and hard drive were in the river when the divers searched it, for all of the reasons you listed. And that shoots down my suicide theory, the basis for my screen name.Oh, I think of myself as just one of "the gang". But I was disappointed that rumors got put up in the DA thread...it is not that difficult to avoid direct references to same in a public forum. But seeing who the "train" engineer is...that puzzles me. Go figure.

As to the laptop and hard drive finds, it is not just the failure of multiple official searches to discover this evidence. The locations where they were found add to the improbability that it was Gricar, alone, who made the disposal(s) or that this was done on April 15/16. If the locations indicated by TG (http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm) are accurate, the logistics involved just do not add up for me.

Curiously, if on April 15/16 the laptop and/or hard drive were not where they were later found, it still does not (to me) totally rule out any of the prominent theories. That is why I attempted (on the other forum a while back) to integrate it into a possible suicide scenario.

I had not noticed that Paluka, in his recent interview with SW (http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841), said that 2 or more of the searches made on the home computer were made about 1 month before Gricar's disappearance...being more focused on what SW was saying. That further revelation does not appear in the press release (http://politigal.googlepages.com/bellefontepressrelease) or any of the anniversary news articles published online. I hope this is confirmed someday. It would correspond to the period of "unusual behavior" others had observed in Gricar. But it would not seem to eliminate any of the theories.

[Willoughby]

Oh, I think of myself as just one of "the gang". But I was disappointed that rumors got put up in the DA thread...it is not that difficult to avoid direct references to same in a public forum. But seeing who the "train" engineer is...that puzzles me. Go figure.

As to the laptop and hard drive finds, it is not just the failure of multiple official searches to discover this evidence. The locations where they were found add to the improbability that it was Gricar, alone, who made the disposal(s) or that this was done on April 15/16. If the locations indicated by TG (http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm) are accurate, the logistics involved just do not add up for me.

Curiously, if on April 15/16 the laptop and/or hard drive were not where they were later found, it still does not (to me) totally rule out any of the prominent theories. That is why I attempted (on the other forum a while back) to integrate it into a possible suicide scenario.

I had not noticed that Paluka, in his recent interview with SW (http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841), said that 2 or more of the searches made on the home computer were made about 1 month before Gricar's disappearance...being more focused on what SW was saying. That further revelation does not appear in the press release (http://politigal.googlepages.com/bellefontepressrelease) or any of the anniversary news articles published online. I hope this is confirmed someday. It would correspond to the period of "unusual behavior" others had observed in Gricar. But it would not seem to eliminate any of the theories.

I was startled to see over on the other board this morning that the "conductor" had managed to do the impossible: Wreck the same train twice. An impressive feat, to be sure. I also was startled this information was known to board posters, thinking it to be more a Centre County discussion amongst the politically connected.

Suicide for me has all but fallen by the wayside. I feel this was murder or a walkaway, with the hard drive and laptop being keys to all of this. I take it from past readings of boards that you Serendipitous1 have actually been to Lewisburg and walked the area, as have I.

I do not see based on where the the laptop and hard drive were found that they were both tossed from the same location. I believe one was thrown from the old railroad bridge, or nearby it, and the other from the bridge that carries automobiles over the Susquehanna. To me, that means whoever did this had time and was in no hurry.

Combine this with the knowledge that a massive search on land and sea did not uncover either computer nor hard drive. But a couple of fisherman made it look easy? I don't think so. That is why, thanks to your observations Serendipitous1, that I no longer believe they were in the water when police were searching. They were "placed" there well after the fact. But by whom?

One, perhaps whoever abducted, or lured, Gricar to Lewisburg killed him. The most pressing need would be to hide the body, and fast. The computer may have been an overlooked afterthought, especially if Gricar was indeed investigating something, or someone, and that investigation got him killed.

Two, he walked away from his life and a trusted friend, or helper, as J.J. likes to say, disposed of the computer and hard drive at their leisure months after the fact. Disposing of the computer in such a way accomplished Gricar's objective in erasing the hard drive and muddied the living hell out of the waters (no pun intended) for those trying to figure out what happened to him. I would doubt that Gricar walked away and kept the computer with him for a time to aid in his escape. He would have had to return to Lewisburg to chuck the items into the drink, a move you'd think he'd deem too risky.

I also believe, if he indeed did walk off, at least one person knows he's alive. I'd be willing to bet two.

As for SW's interview, I'm not surprised. It actually reflects a trend. When they speak united, and on paper, their message is the same. But when they speak live and off the top of their heads, information tends to leak out, demonstrating what I've been arguing. LE knows far more than it is saying at this point.

[Serendipitous1]

Four years is a long time. The grapevine has, quite apparently, branched well beyond the Centre County enclave.

The laptop and hard drive found had to have been thrown (or perhaps more likely, carefully placed) from different locations. I was at the "scene" on 4/22/05 and observed the tail end of the diver search that day. I know how the river bank and channel behind the park looked then. I thought about the water level being a foot and a half higher on 4/15...where the water's edge would have then been, and what the current might have been like at the time. After each of the finds, I thought about the mechanics of putting these items into the water, and whether they would get carried downstream a ways or sink almost immediately. The logistics make no sense to me...unless the placements occurred well after the fact.

[Willoughby]

I basically am torn between murder and walkaway. It's about 90% likely it was one of those two.

Yes, the conspiracy theorists are at work. Maybe they should join "Donald Fenton" from the State College board.

From what I've read on the other boards, the conspiracy that would be required for Gricar to have been murdered, how some seem to believe, would rival anything ever done on "24." It would have to involve the girlfriend, several helpers to get the Mini Cooper to Lewisburg, a Gricar lookalike, someone to make the cell phone call with Gricar's phone, the Bellefonte Police Department looking the other way and an evil genius who can fool a Secret Service polygraph examination.

This conspiracy would also trick Gricar into talking about Mel Wiley, talking about how to erase a hard drive, putting the Mini Cooper into his girlfriend's name, etc., etc. Unless none of this actually happened, and the various sources of this information also were involved in the murder.

Murder conspiracies inevitably fall apart, especially one as large as the one required to pull off the Gricar murder scenario that some continue to advance. Killers make mistakes. They talk. If Gricar was murdered, it was by one, two people at the very most, and it all centered on Lewisburg. And it was very, very well planned and executed.

[J. J. in Phila]

I was startled to see over on the other board this morning that the "conductor" had managed to do the impossible: Wreck the same train twice. An impressive feat, to be sure. I also was startled this information was known to board posters, thinking it to be more a Centre County discussion amongst the politically connected.



I do communicate with some people with Centre County connections.

Nothing was new to me; I'd heard the rumors months ago, before JKA announced, and didn't post it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Murder conspiracies inevitably fall apart, especially one as large as the one required to pull off the Gricar murder scenario that some continue to advance. Killers make mistakes. They talk. If Gricar was murdered, it was by one, two people at the very most, and it all centered on Lewisburg. And it was very, very well planned and executed.


The conspiracy falls apart, but a lot of evidence could point to murder, if RFG was planning a short trip or a tryst.

[J. J. in Phila]

BTW, Willoughby, I'm glad you are still here.

[Willoughby]

BTW, Willoughby, I'm glad you are still here.

Thanks. So long as there is something to discuss, I'll be around I guess. I just think that until LE finally levels with us and spills what it's got, we're just firing into the dark hoping to hit something.

[Willoughby]

Four years is a long time. The grapevine has, quite apparently, branched well beyond the Centre County enclave.

The laptop and hard drive found had to have been thrown (or perhaps more likely, carefully placed) from different locations. I was at the "scene" on 4/22/05 and observed the tail end of the diver search that day. I know how the river bank and channel behind the park looked then. I thought about the water level being a foot and a half higher on 4/15...where the water's edge would have then been, and what the current might have been like at the time. After each of the finds, I thought about the mechanics of putting these items into the water, and whether they would get carried downstream a ways or sink almost immediately. The logistics make no sense to me...unless the placements occurred well after the fact.

I don't see how that current could have carried both objects like that. It seems to me they were tossed into the river from two different locations, meaning whoever did it had time.

I think LE thought of this as well. I'd heard there were talks about a rather morbid experiment regarding the current.

A question I've had though is, could an expert in corrosion have studied the hard drive and told police how long it was in that river? I don't know if it's been done. Forgive me please if this has been discussed.

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't see how that current could have carried both objects like that. It seems to me they were tossed into the river from two different locations, meaning whoever did it had time.

I think LE thought of this as well. I'd heard there were talks about a rather morbid experiment regarding the current.


The drive could have moved after the tossing. S1 once suggested that kids might have found it, and tossed it. It is possible.


A question I've had though is, could an expert in corrosion have studied the hard drive and told police how long it was in that river? I don't know if it's been done. Forgive me please if this has been discussed.

None have. My "expert opinion" on the drive in the river "a while." :)

[Willoughby]

The politics of this case fascinate me. That I could see the writing on the wall before the "announcement" about the home computer makes me increasingly fearful I'm right about how this is going to play out.

MM is going to announce, when it is most politically advantageous, that Gricar walked off on his own accord OR committed suicide by throwing himself into the Susquehanna. Either way, "case closed, kudos all around and, ladies and gentlemen of Centre County, I have earned a second term."

This past week, MM has shown just how far he will go to achieve his objectives, including strong-arming adult probation into granting Mr. Ronnie Starr immediate release in exchange for a lie. And then lying about the lie.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1239822.html

Many on the other boards have underestimated Mr. Madeira. I did not. It appears J.J. and Serendipitous1 did not. I say again, if JKA is the Democratic nominee, enjoy four more years of one of the best snake oil salesmen ever to come out of Bob Jones University.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.

[J. J. in Phila]

The politics of this case fascinate me. That I could see the writing on the wall before the "announcement" about the home computer makes me increasingly fearful I'm right about how this is going to play out.

MM is going to announce, when it is most politically advantageous, that Gricar walked off on his own accord OR committed suicide by throwing himself into the Susquehanna. Either way, "case closed, kudos all around and, ladies and gentlemen of Centre County, I have earned a second term."

This past week, MM has shown just how far he will go to achieve his objectives, including strong-arming adult probation into granting Mr. Ronnie Starr immediate release in exchange for a lie. And then lying about the lie.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1239822.html

Many on the other boards have underestimated Mr. Madeira. I did not. It appears J.J. and Serendipitous1 did not. I say again, if JKA is the Democratic nominee, enjoy four more years of one of the best snake oil salesmen ever to come out of Bob Jones University.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.

BJU is exceptionally good in training folks to run for office. I doubt if MM is the best "snake oil salesman" to come out, but he is a quite good politician. I think some of the others got a tame preview of the MM/JKA match up, and they didn't like what they saw.

I'm reminded of comment of Marshall Soult to Napoleon just before before Waterloo. Napoleon just derided Wellington and the Allied army. Soult said, "I certainly hope so."

I don't like it, but I think Madeira is Wellington. I hope to do what I can to keep him from finding a "political solution" to the Gricar case, is not the real solution (though they might be one and the same).

[Serendipitous1]

Today, as I drove home from up north, I saw an unreclaimed, re-elect AG Corbett sign along the highway. It instantly reminded me (as if I needed reminding) of just how badly the state failed Ray Gricar.

I have never cared as much what actually happened to Ray Gricar, as I have that whatever happened to him becomes known. That has not happened...in no small measure because of the likes of Corbett and Madeira.

Short of actually solving this mystery, nothing would please me more than if one-term Mike was to try to sidestep his participation in that failure by declaring some half-baked closure. I double-dog dare him to do it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Short of actually solving this mystery, nothing would please me more than if one-term Mike was to try to sidestep his participation in that failure by declaring some half-baked closure. I double-dog dare him to do it.

And if he does, what will you do?

It would please me for him, or anyone, to declare a solution without evidence.

Right now, that could end up being the "official solution" to the case.

[nittany90]

Oh, I think of myself as just one of "the gang". But I was disappointed that rumors got put up in the DA thread...it is not that difficult to avoid direct references to same in a public forum. But seeing who the "train" engineer is...that puzzles me. Go figure.

As to the laptop and hard drive finds, it is not just the failure of multiple official searches to discover this evidence. The locations where they were found add to the improbability that it was Gricar, alone, who made the disposal(s) or that this was done on April 15/16. If the locations indicated by TG (http://www.raygricar.com/siteimages/sitephotos.htm) are accurate, the logistics involved just do not add up for me.

Curiously, if on April 15/16 the laptop and/or hard drive were not where they were later found, it still does not (to me) totally rule out any of the prominent theories. That is why I attempted (on the other forum a while back) to integrate it into a possible suicide scenario.

I had not noticed that Paluka, in his recent interview with SW (http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/news/?cid=81841), said that 2 or more of the searches made on the home computer were made about 1 month before Gricar's disappearance...being more focused on what SW was saying. That further revelation does not appear in the press release (http://politigal.googlepages.com/bellefontepressrelease) or any of the anniversary news articles published online. I hope this is confirmed someday. It would correspond to the period of "unusual behavior" others had observed in Gricar. But it would not seem to eliminate any of the theories.

Great find! ;)

[nittany90]

The politics of this case fascinate me. That I could see the writing on the wall before the "announcement" about the home computer makes me increasingly fearful I'm right about how this is going to play out.

MM is going to announce, when it is most politically advantageous, that Gricar walked off on his own accord OR committed suicide by throwing himself into the Susquehanna. Either way, "case closed, kudos all around and, ladies and gentlemen of Centre County, I have earned a second term."

This past week, MM has shown just how far he will go to achieve his objectives, including strong-arming adult probation into granting Mr. Ronnie Starr immediate release in exchange for a lie. And then lying about the lie.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1239822.html

Many on the other boards have underestimated Mr. Madeira. I did not. It appears J.J. and Serendipitous1 did not. I say again, if JKA is the Democratic nominee, enjoy four more years of one of the best snake oil salesmen ever to come out of Bob Jones University.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am.

I share your fears. And if you're right, it will come after the primary, but well before the general, in order to use it to his advange most properly.

[Willoughby]

Today, as I drove home from up north, I saw an unreclaimed, re-elect AG Corbett sign along the highway. It instantly reminded me (as if I needed reminding) of just how badly the state failed Ray Gricar.

I have never cared as much what actually happened to Ray Gricar, as I have that whatever happened to him becomes known. That has not happened...in no small measure because of the likes of Corbett and Madeira.

Short of actually solving this mystery, nothing would please me more than if one-term Mike was to try to sidestep his participation in that failure by declaring some half-baked closure. I double-dog dare him to do it.

I don't think you'll have to dare him to do it, S1, MM's going to do it. It's just a matter of time. But I wonder what more police have that would make walkaway convincing enough for the 43% who don't believe this "theory."

What police have released so far is not enough. I keep thinking they must have something bigger they're sitting on, something they're going to drop on us when it's politically advantageous for MM. This slow leak of "new" info that LE actually has known about for years is all staging for the grand finale, in my opinion.

[Willoughby]

I share your fears. And if you're right, it will come after the primary, but well before the general, in order to use it to his advange most properly.

And ponder this: If JKA is the Democratic nominee, MM is going to have a field day announcing the case has been solved.

He'll have a ball talking about her googlepages (http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/), her conspiracy theories, her infatuation with JJ, her most recent employment, her admitted emotional "fallout" over being fired, etc. As the saying goes, if you can't hide the skeleton in your closet, you'd better teach it to dance. These issues aren't dancing.

It's the perfect storm, is it not? Perfect for MM anyway.

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't think you'll have to dare him to do it, S1, MM's going to do it. It's just a matter of time. But I wonder what more police have that would make walkaway convincing enough for the 43% who don't believe this "theory."


A way out of Lewisburg. The need it, and they know they need it.

[]
What police have released so far is not enough. I keep thinking they must have something bigger they're sitting on, something they're going to drop on us when it's politically advantageous for MM. This slow leak of "new" info that LE actually has known about for years is all staging for the grand finale, in my opinion.

LE has said that they checked rentals under RFG's credit card and public transportation, but nothing else.

[J. J. in Phila]

And ponder this: If JKA is the Democratic nominee, MM is going to have a field day announcing the case has been solved.

He'll have a ball talking about her googlepages (http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/), her conspiracy theories, her infatuation with JJ, her most recent employment, her admitted emotional "fallout" over being fired, etc. As the saying goes, if you can't hide the skeleton in your closet, you'd better teach it to dance. These issues aren't dancing.

It's the perfect storm, is it not? Perfect for MM anyway.

And as Nittany90 can tell you, it takes about 15 minutes to figure out who I am, and maybe another 15 minutes to figure out how I do on IQ tests. ;)

I am glad both you an Nittany90 are posting.

[Rhododendron]

And ponder this: If JKA is the Democratic nominee, MM is going to have a field day announcing the case has been solved.

He'll have a ball talking about her googlepages (http://gricar.disappearance.googlepages.com/), her conspiracy theories, her infatuation with JJ, her most recent employment, her admitted emotional "fallout" over being fired, etc. As the saying goes, if you can't hide the skeleton in your closet, you'd better teach it to dance. These issues aren't dancing.

It's the perfect storm, is it not? Perfect for MM anyway.

Perfect storm? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt if all the voters of Centre Co. forget all the negative press about the current DA's office: the scandal involving a member of the office; the scandal of the "buddy system" that's been a biggie in Centre Co.; the "we have all the resources we need" to asking for a detective who 'may have helped in the RG investigation'; the not turning over evidence to the defense; the cases lost/overturned; the list goes on.

As far as KA, I hope voters do read her googlepages. I think they'd find out exactly what occured before & immediately after RG's disappearance: the grief counselors in place by the day RG was to return to work; the "wake-like gathering the same week; the mystery of "the book"; & on & on. Her "infatuation with RG": where did that come from, because who would know that?
Her "most recent employment: yep, being organist at a church is scandalous!
Her "emotional fallout after being fired: another scandal! Being "fired" with only one more year to go before retirement; being "fired" by an apparent 'vengeful' new boss, after 18 years with the former boss, might cause a little "emotional fallout" to quite a few voters.

"Skeletons in the closet": I believe there really are "skeletons in the closet", but I believe they're not in KA's closet.

[J. J. in Phila]

Perfect storm? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt if all the voters of Centre Co. forget all the negative press about the current DA's office: the scandal involving a member of the office; the scandal of the "buddy system" that's been a biggie in Centre Co.; the "we have all the resources we need" to asking for a detective who 'may have helped in the RG investigation'; the not turning over evidence to the defense; the cases lost/overturned; the list goes on.


Let's see, the same person who employed LM for a decade also employed JKA. That's a great reference.

The case will possibly end a conviction, oh, and who was the ADA on it?


As far as KA, I hope voters do read her googlepages. I think they'd find out exactly what occured before & immediately after RG's disappearance: the grief counselors in place by the day RG was to return to work; the "wake-like gathering the same week; the mystery of "the book"; & on & on. Her "infatuation with RG": where did that come from, because who would know that?


He said "J. J.," and I'm mentioned more that RFG is. :) Yes, please read it, everyone! :)


Her "most recent employment: yep, being organist at a church is scandalous!


Perhaps he is referring to a day job? :biggrin:


Her "emotional fallout after being fired: another scandal! Being "fired" with only one more year to go before retirement; being "fired" by an apparent 'vengeful' new boss, after 18 years with the former boss, might cause a little "emotional fallout" to quite a few voters.


Most workers would stay in the same field, unless the couldn't, assuming they liked that field.


"Skeletons in the closet": I believe there really are "skeletons in the closet", but I believe they're not in KA's closet.

The funniest thing about the approaching train wreck is how many of you don't see it coming.

[Serendipitous1]

Great find! ;)Apparently, we have you to thank for that tidbit...Thanks! Although, I thought it was the interviewer narrating at the time...not SW speaking. I have found reporting accuracy to be wanting at times (not just in regard to this case). I could be wrong about that though...on both counts.

[Serendipitous1]

I don't think you'll have to dare him to do it, S1, MM's going to do it. It's just a matter of time. But I wonder what more police have that would make walkaway convincing enough for the 43% who don't believe this "theory."

What police have released so far is not enough. I keep thinking they must have something bigger they're sitting on, something they're going to drop on us when it's politically advantageous for MM. This slow leak of "new" info that LE actually has known about for years is all staging for the grand finale, in my opinion.That is why I said "half-baked". Declaring closure without compelling evidence would seem politically risky in an election year. But maybe there is the equivalent of Mel Wiley's typewriter ribbon on a computer somewhere.

[Willoughby]

A way out of Lewisburg. The need it, and they know they need it.


[

LE has said that they checked rentals under RFG's credit card and public transportation, but nothing else.

On point one, they very well may already have it. On point two, I'd bet there's a reason for that, see response one. The question, in my mind anyway, is what are they waiting for? To flush him out? Or for maximum political gain for MM?

[Willoughby]

That is why I said "half-baked". Declaring closure without compelling evidence would seem politically risky in an election year. But maybe there is the equivalent of Mel Wiley's typewriter ribbon on a computer somewhere.

I believe you are exactly right, and that is why the public is being eased into the frigid waters of a half-baked explanation. Walkaway will be much more palatable if the idea is slowly introduced over time.

That computer equivalent to Mel Wiley's typewriter ribbon very well may have been found. I just cannot believe LE would say they are sure Gricar made those hard drive searches without being absolutely sure. Somehow, they know.

But there are other explanations besides walkaway for those searches, reasons that could have resulted in Gricar's death.

[J. J. in Phila]

On point one, they very well may already have it. On point two, I'd bet there's a reason for that, see response one. The question, in my mind anyway, is what are they waiting for? To flush him out? Or for maximum political gain for MM?

I'm fairly sure that they have checked; I cannot imagine MR not checking.

There are now four blogs up; all four give reasons for the searches. Two of them deal with murder.

LE will need a way out, if this was walkaway. It's not going to be "Well anybody could have 'walked' him out of Lewisburg." That will not wash.

[nittany90]

And as Nittany90 can tell you, it takes about 15 minutes to figure out who I am, and maybe another 15 minutes to figure out how I do on IQ tests. ;)

I am glad both you an Nittany90 are posting.

Listen, it took me 30 minutes. Am I a slacker?? A compliment from you, JJ, what a rare find! Thanks! ;) And, I'd say he does quite well on IQ tests (no surprise there).

Yep - my guess is LE has more than they're telling. I hate these veiled sources, but a little birdie told me that the FBI is more involved than the public realizes.

[nittany90]

Apparently, we have you to thank for that tidbit...Thanks! Although, I thought it was the interviewer narrating at the time...not SW speaking. I have found reporting accuracy to be wanting at times (not just in regard to this case). I could be wrong about that though...on both counts.

Amen on the reporting accuracy leaving something to be desired! Damn, why can't good reporters could just stay in the field (instead of throwing it all away to be a mom and then doing the investigating on their own time, in spite of the disapproval of her husband, for no pay) LOL. ;)

And like I said on another board, I'm just glad I had something to offer.

[J. J. in Phila]

Listen, it took me 30 minutes. Am I a slacker?? A compliment from you, JJ, what a rare find! Thanks! ;) And, I'd say he does quite well on IQ tests (no surprise there).


If it took you 30 minutes to check the Alumni Directory, you are a slacker. ;)

If you look closely, you can get the bottom range. Oh, when my "secret" identity comes out... . :rolleyes:

:biggrin:

[The actual reason it is still secret is that my life is so incredibly boring.]


Yep - my guess is LE has more than they're telling. I hate these veiled sources, but a little birdie told me that the FBI is more involved than the public realizes.

I could believe that the FBI would be involved, especially if the case crossed state lines or they were looking at federal issues. Both would be possible, though I have not heard anything. My only comment is that the FBI did not review the various witnesses in Lewisburg/Wilkes-Barre.

I'm fairly sure that as of this summer they had not interviewed the Wilkes-Barre witness. I hear from people.

[Willoughby]

Amen on the reporting accuracy leaving something to be desired! Damn, why can't good reporters could just stay in the field (instead of throwing it all away to be a mom and then doing the investigating on their own time, in spite of the disapproval of her husband, for no pay) LOL. ;)

And like I said on another board, I'm just glad I had something to offer.

I'll toss in a second "amen" on the reporting accuracy, and the lack thereof. It appears the trend will continue, with the news media still looking the other way in the face of so many contradictions ...

Your insight is intriguing, Nittany90. Please keep it up.

[nittany90]

If it took you 30 minutes to check the Alumni Directory, you are a slacker. ;)



In my defense, I didn't take the easy way out of looking it up in the directory -- I used the back door. If I had used the directory, 5 minutes, tops! ;)

[nittany90]

I'll toss in a second "amen" on the reporting accuracy, and the lack thereof. It appears the trend will continue, with the news media still looking the other way in the face of so many contradictions ...

Your insight is intriguing, Nittany90. Please keep it up.

Thanks, Will (hope you don't mind my nickname for you). Intriguing? Nah. But I'm happy to be here (just having problems keeping up with which message boards I'm posting on, lol).
Don't give up on all of the media looking the other way -- we might see some deep questions in print soon.

[J. J. in Phila]

In my defense, I didn't take the easy way out of looking it up in the directory -- I used the back door. If I had used the directory, 5 minutes, tops! ;)


But the Directory is sooooo easy.

Yes, please keep it up, all of you. I have four different scenarios with four slightly different conclusions all backed up by some evidence. It's days like this I'd wish PB was back doing this.

[2-B]

My only comment is that the FBI did not review the various witnesses in Lewisburg/Wilkes-Barre.

I'm fairly sure that as of this summer they had not interviewed the Wilkes-Barre witness. I hear from people.

Surely you remember this, JJ: the FBI has shown it's likely to stay away from witnesses it cannot confirm using its standards of documentation and corroboration (by something other than another witness). So I'm not surprised they haven't interviewed the WB witnesses.

We do know they've had their hands in quite a few other things, and if N90's source is correct, it sounds as if they're involved in ways we haven't yet imagined.

[J. J. in Phila]

Surely you remember this, JJ: the FBI has shown it's likely to stay away from witnesses it cannot confirm using its standards of documentation and corroboration (by something other than another witness). So I'm not surprised they haven't interviewed the WB witnesses.


I've mentions of the FBI standards before, along with claims of "scientific" studies, and no real information. I would expect that the FBI would talk to witnesses before ruling them out.


We do know they've had their hands in quite a few other things, and if N90's source is correct, it sounds as if they're involved in ways we haven't yet imagined.

We've heard them being involved in some aspects of this case, but that has been looking at financial records and analyzing data, i.e. assist local police. The FBI would become involved if there was evidence of a federal crime or if the case crossed state lines. http://www.fbi.gov/aboutus/faqs/faqsone.htm

I'm unaware of any federal crime.

[nittany90]

Surely you remember this, JJ: the FBI has shown it's likely to stay away from witnesses it cannot confirm using its standards of documentation and corroboration (by something other than another witness). So I'm not surprised they haven't interviewed the WB witnesses.

We do know they've had their hands in quite a few other things, and if N90's source is correct, it sounds as if they're involved in ways we haven't yet imagined.

Just to clarify, I have no information on HOW they're involved. Just that they are more involved than the general pubic is aware of. It will never be my intention to mislead anyone on these boards (or anywhere else for that matter). Hell, we get enough of that from the "powers that be".

[nittany90]

Does anyone know what medical condition Steve Sloane suffered from, for which he was on medical leave, during the time of Gricar's disappearance?

And what do we know about his friend, Ed Walker?

Links, please.

And, does anyone know if anything significant came to light during the investigation from December, 2005 to March, 2006 to make Lara believe Gricar was not coming back? Enough to petition the PA Supreme Court, asking that they de-activate his PA license? Only a few months after working to have it re-instated (December, 2005) after it was automatically de-activated in November for non-payment in July, 2005? Something so significant to make her actively seek the de-activation rather than simply allowing it to automatically de-activate again if she failed to pay the $175 renewal fee by July 1, 2006 (just a few months later)? Wasn't it still being reported in March, that LG still believed her father was alive?

Or was it something so simple, that since he hadn't been around to earn his 12 hours of continuing education over the last year, that she thought she should be proactive and cancel his bar license? Doesn't seem the rational action of someone who even held onto the slightest hope that her father was still alive, and coming back.

And if not, what happened between December, 2005 to March, 2006, to change her mind that Gricar wasn't coming back?

Is it significant or irrelevant to the investigation?

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't have a link, but TG mentioned a car accident in regard to the 2005 injury.

For EW, you might want to check the alumni directory.

It involved the continuing education requirement. http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

I might suggest you read the quote from their attorney in full.

[nittany90]

I don't have a link, but TG mentioned a car accident in regard to the 2005 injury.

For EW, you might want to check the alumni directory.

It involved the continuing education requirement. http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

I might suggest you read the quote from their attorney in full.

Is there another source for Goodall's quote, other than the Courthouse Steps Mavens website? If not, I had already read that in its entirety. And, while the attorney alludes to the fact that failing to complete his 12 CLEs with the PBI appeared to be the motive, at least to me, it doesn't go so far as to say so.

Still, if that's the case, why take the active step of petitioning the Court in March, when his license would have automatically de-activated in July for nonconformance, anyway? I would guess that with the one-year anniversary of his disappearance looming around the corner, she would have other things on her mind. It just seems kind of odd, that's all.

[J. J. in Phila]

Is there another source for Goodall's quote, other than the Courthouse Steps Mavens website? If not, I had already read that in its entirety. And, while the attorney alludes to the fact that failing to complete his 12 CLEs with the PBI appeared to be the motive, at least to me, it doesn't go so far as to say so.

Still, if that's the case, why take the active step of petitioning the Court in March, when his license would have automatically de-activated in July for nonconformance, anyway? I would guess that with the one-year anniversary of his disappearance looming around the corner, she would have other things on her mind. It just seems kind of odd, that's all.

I'm not certain if an attorney can retain the license without the CE requirement. They might have to either complete the CE requirement or lose it entirely. Some that I am familiar with basically are set up as, keep it active, designate it inactive, or lose it.

Yes it's from the CM website.

[Serendipitous1]

Pennsylvania records (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/pa_attorney_info.php?id=31952&pdcount=0) list RG's license as "inactive". Some reading on "inactive status" can be found in the Rules and Regulations for CLE in Pennsylvania (https://www.pacle.org/about/rulesregs.asp), in the Rules of Disciplinary Enforcement (http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/204/chapter83/chap83toc.html#219.) and on other such web sites. There are also some very recent changes to rules governing inactive attorneys "In the News" (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/attorneys.php).

Ohio records (http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/AttySvcs/AttyReg/Public_AttorneyDetails.asp?ID=0026634) list RG's license (as of 12/2/05) as "Not Registered" (suspended by rule).

From what I can tell, the OH status is analogous to the PA status in that, should RG (if he were physically able to do so) someday wish to resume the practice of law, there is a procedure to follow which would permit it.

[Serendipitous1]

Amen on the reporting accuracy leaving something to be desired! Damn, why can't good reporters could just stay in the field (instead of throwing it all away to be a mom and then doing the investigating on their own time, in spite of the disapproval of her husband, for no pay) LOL. ;)

And like I said on another board, I'm just glad I had something to offer.Shocking, LOL! As penance, you, your SO and especially the kids are directed to visit the interactive Newseum (http://www.newseum.org/)...not the virtual tour...a physical visit. I spent a day there. It was awesome...well worth the trip to DC alone.

[nittany90]

Sounds like a good day trip.

[nittany90]

Pennsylvania records (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/pa_attorney_info.php?id=31952&pdcount=0) list RG's license as "inactive". Some reading on "inactive status" can be found in the Rules and Regulations for CLE in Pennsylvania (https://www.pacle.org/about/rulesregs.asp), in the Rules of Disciplinary Enforcement (http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/204/chapter83/chap83toc.html#219.) and on other such web sites. There are also some very recent changes to rules governing inactive attorneys "In the News" (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/attorneys.php).

Ohio records (http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/AttySvcs/AttyReg/Public_AttorneyDetails.asp?ID=0026634) list RG's license (as of 12/2/05) as "Not Registered" (suspended by rule).

From what I can tell, the OH status is analogous to the PA status in that, should RG (if he were physically able to do so) someday wish to resume the practice of law, there is a procedure to follow which would permit it.

Thanks, S1 for the info. I'm not so interested in why his licenses was put on inactive status, but why it was proactively sought in the first place. Seems like, had LG done nothing, Gricar's status and the end result (process thru which reinstatement would be necessary) would be the same. Perhaps "involuntary inactive" has a different process for reinstatement than "voluntary inactive". Either way, seems like there's nothing substantial to the "whys" behind it.

[J. J. in Phila]

Pennsylvania records (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/pa_attorney_info.php?id=31952&pdcount=0) list RG's license as "inactive". Some reading on "inactive status" can be found in the Rules and Regulations for CLE in Pennsylvania (https://www.pacle.org/about/rulesregs.asp), in the Rules of Disciplinary Enforcement (http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/204/chapter83/chap83toc.html#219.) and on other such web sites. There are also some very recent changes to rules governing inactive attorneys "In the News" (http://www.padisciplinaryboard.org/attorneys.php).

Ohio records (http://www.sconet.state.oh.us/AttySvcs/AttyReg/Public_AttorneyDetails.asp?ID=0026634) list RG's license (as of 12/2/05) as "Not Registered" (suspended by rule).

From what I can tell, the OH status is analogous to the PA status in that, should RG (if he were physically able to do so) someday wish to resume the practice of law, there is a procedure to follow which would permit it.

It looks like the cutoff was September 1, so that is a bit early. (Rule 108)

That just crept up to interesting.

[J. J. in Phila]

It looks like the cutoff was September 1, so that is a bit early. (Rule 108)

That just crept up to interesting.

I'll take that back. There are three groups of attorneys that have different dates. It's under Section 4. One date was April 30.

[Serendipitous1]

Thanks, S1 for the info. I'm not so interested in why his licenses was put on inactive status, but why it was proactively sought in the first place. Seems like, had LG done nothing, Gricar's status and the end result (process thru which reinstatement would be necessary) would be the same. Perhaps "involuntary inactive" has a different process for reinstatement than "voluntary inactive". Either way, seems like there's nothing substantial to the "whys" behind it.Where is your link? And/or why do you beat around the bush...spit it out!

[nittany90]

Where is your link? And/or why do you beat around the bush...spit it out!

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

Sorry, not trying to be mysterious. I just happened to come across the article during research last week and found that:
1. it was curious, that less than 4 months after working to reinstate her dad's status to "active" that she would petition the PA Supreme Ct. to list it as "inactive", while still (publicly at least) holding onto the hope that he would return. While, if she did nothing, it would revert to "inactive" status in a few months, anyway.
2. Wondering if anything substantial had happened within the investigation during December 2005 to March, 2006 to cause LG's change of heart.
3. If not, wondering if it was possible that AFTER passing the LD test in September, 2005, that she might have received information that led her to believe her dad wasn't returning.

Again, not forming any conclusions, just wondering out loud. Put it out there to see if anyone else found the timing odd. Again, I guess it's a non-issue.

[Serendipitous1]

A serious thought? (http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/15776/user/193238/283669.gif) Go figure. Do carry on though.

[J. J. in Phila]

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/thread.php?forumid=122775&threadid=737159

Sorry, not trying to be mysterious. I just happened to come across the article during research last week and found that:
1. it was curious, that less than 4 months after working to reinstate her dad's status to "active" that she would petition the PA Supreme Ct. to list it as "inactive", while still (publicly at least) holding onto the hope that he would return. While, if she did nothing, it would revert to "inactive" status in a few months, anyway.
2. Wondering if anything substantial had happened within the investigation during December 2005 to March, 2006 to cause LG's change of heart.
3. If not, wondering if it was possible that AFTER passing the LD test in September, 2005, that she might have received information that led her to believe her dad wasn't returning.

Again, not forming any conclusions, just wondering out loud. Put it out there to see if anyone else found the timing odd. Again, I guess it's a non-issue.

It's another one of those, "it could be something or not" bits of evidence.

Even if RFG had stayed there, he wasn't planning to practice after he retired, so it is consistent with his stated plans.

[nittany90]

It's another one of those, "it could be something or not" bits of evidence.

Even if RFG had stayed there, he wasn't planning to practice after he retired, so it is consistent with his stated plans.

Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but.....
Yes, consistant with Gricar's stated plans, yet, seemingly inconsistant with LG's demonstrated plans only a few months earlier.

[OOBrett]

If Gricar was in the April compliance period for continuing legal education, the thing to do would be to get the license into inactive status before the end of April.

An active license that does not have the required credits is non-compliant. I have never been non-compliant. I have been inactive. Going back to active from inactive required that I make up the 12 credits I didn't bother getting the year I was inactive.

If one is non-compliant with CLE requirements on an active license, I'm betting that there are one or two more steps to go through (like explaining yourself) to make things right. I didn't bother reading the material that's linked above from the Disciplinary Board, but I'm sure the explanation is in there somewhere.

So, if it were me and I disappeared, I would want somebody to get my license into inactive status. Even if they went to some trouble to get it active a few months prior. I assume that was a trying time for Lara Gricar and people advising her and they may have just not been thinking relatively minor details all the way through.

[2-B]

Thanks for weighing in with the explanation of inactive and non-compliant, OOB.

Very helpful.

[nittany90]

Yes, OOB - thanks for the clarification on inactive and non-compliant. I don't know why this stupid little issue continues to nag me. Don't know why I'm trying to get into the head of a daughter, thrust into the role of trustee by the sudden disappearance of her father, and all the confusion and sadness that must go with that unwanted and unchartered position.

Officially considering it a dead issue. For now. ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

Yes, OOB - thanks for the clarification on inactive and non-compliant. I don't know why this stupid little issue continues to nag me. Don't know why I'm trying to get into the head of a daughter, thrust into the role of trustee by the sudden disappearance of her father, and all the confusion and sadness that must go with that unwanted and unchartered position.

Officially considering it a dead issue. For now. ;)

It is one of a number of possible clues, emphasis on possible.

[Serendipitous1]

Yes, OOB - thanks for the clarification on inactive and non-compliant. I don't know why this stupid little issue continues to nag me. Don't know why I'm trying to get into the head of a daughter, thrust into the role of trustee by the sudden disappearance of her father, and all the confusion and sadness that must go with that unwanted and unchartered position.

Officially considering it a dead issue. For now. ;)When the carry-over CLE credits were there, it made sense to keep Gricar's registration active (in PA if not in OH). When he was not around to pick up the additional credits needed, "voluntary inactive" was the correct choice. Is there a question about the timing?

If Gricar's PA registration is subject to the new yearly fee for continuing that status, LG's remitting, or not remitting, might signal where her head is at...but probably nothing beyond what she has already said publicly...or through her cousin.

I often think about her...and did she walk down the aisle alone? I hope and pray my daughter will not be so unfortunate. It is a parent thing...far removed from the law or licensure.

[J. J. in Phila]

When the carry-over CLE credits were there, it made sense to keep Gricar's registration active (in PA if not in OH). When he was not around to pick up the additional credits needed, "voluntary inactive" was the correct choice. Is there a question about the timing?

If Gricar's PA registration is subject to the new yearly fee for continuing that status, LG's remitting, or not remitting, might signal where her head is at...but probably nothing beyond what she has already said publicly...or through her cousin.

I often think about her...and did she walk down the aisle alone? I hope and pray my daughter will not be so unfortunate. It is a parent thing...far removed from the law or licensure.

There is a question about timing. Would RFG's license have been suspended for lack of CLE credits on 4/30/06, if the status hadn't been changed? I don't have the answer, but I think it's a good question.

[nittany90]

There is a question about timing. Would RFG's license have been suspended for lack of CLE credits on 4/30/06, if the status hadn't been changed? I don't have the answer, but I think it's a good question.

Yep, S1, my questioning was all about the timing. Preface my curiosity by saying I DO NOT THINK LG HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH GRICAR'S DISAPPEARANCE. The timing just seems a little odd, to me. Too bad there's no way to find out which cutoff deadline his Supreme Ct. ID# was randomly assigned to. If I knew he was in one of the other 2 registration deadlines, I'd pop up my curiosity level a little.

But I agree with JJ, may be a little something -- may be a lot of nothing. I'm good with that.

[Serendipitous1]

I see your point. But I would bet (if I had any money) that Gricar was in the April 30 compliance group. Per the rules (previously linked) the Board sent Gricar notice of his CLE status...I will guess in late February or early March. The notice went to AG, the family attorney. Being a lawyer, AG knew how to advise LG. LG decided to go with voluntary inactive status rather than let the court impose the same (though there appears to be no practical difference unless the latter would appear as a sanction). The CDT reported at the time that the order was dated March 31. There is no odd timing, unless of course Gricar was not in that compliance group (in which case I would lose my non-backed bet and have to rethink your original question).

[Willoughby]

I see your point. But I would bet (if I had any money) that Gricar was in the April 30 compliance group. Per the rules (previously linked) the Board sent Gricar notice of his CLE status...I will guess in late February or early March. The notice went to AG, the family attorney. Being a lawyer, AG knew how to advise LG. LG decided to go with voluntary inactive status rather than let the court impose the same (though there appears to be no practical difference unless the latter would appear as a sanction). The CDT reported at the time that the order was dated March 31. There is no odd timing, unless of course Gricar was not in that compliance group (in which case I would lose my non-backed bet and have to rethink your original question).

I'm with you on this, S1. And of all the things LG has done, or has not done, in the past four years, the law license doesn't jump out at me as being odd. But I'd at least be checking in with LE once in a while if it was my dad.

On a side note, if any of you saw the recent DA candidate's forum, did it sound to any of you as if MM was is starting to blame the problems of his office on the man who hired those assistants? I hate to say I told you so, but ...

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm with you on this, S1. And of all the things LG has done, or has not done, in the past four years, the law license doesn't jump out at me as being odd. But I'd at least be checking in with LE once in a while if it was my dad.

On a side note, if any of you saw the recent DA candidate's forum, did it sound to any of you as if MM was is starting to blame the problems of his office on the man who hired those assistants? I hate to say I told you so, but ...

I think it is odd if that deadline was not looming. April 30, 2006 deadline = nothing.

And you've been dead right on the politics.

[nittany90]

I'm with you on this, S1. And of all the things LG has done, or has not done, in the past four years, the law license doesn't jump out at me as being odd. But I'd at least be checking in with LE once in a while if it was my dad.

On a side note, if any of you saw the recent DA candidate's forum, did it sound to any of you as if MM was is starting to blame the problems of his office on the man who hired those assistants? I hate to say I told you so, but ...


Yep, Willoughby. You called it. I call his tactic, "guilty-by-association incompetence". Hope the voters don't buy it.

[Rhododendron]

Yep, Willoughby. You called it. I call his tactic, "guilty-by-association incompetence". Hope the voters don't buy it.

IMO, the "guilty-by-association incompetence" sounds like whining: "Poor pittiful me; vote for me cause I had nothing to do with anything!"

Wonder how this will stand up beside all the bad press the current DA has been getting ref. the suppression of evidence, the Shaner thingy, the cases reduced/overturned/back to court. Maybe voters will buy the fact that, even with all the 'supervisory' experience, there is still a DA's office, the purpose of which is to try cases & win.

Has anyone on this board ever come across a link to this: "Second, by all accounts, there were people in the home before RFG was reported missing, for hours." If so, would you please post that link?

[Willoughby]

IMO, the "guilty-by-association incompetence" sounds like whining: "Poor pittiful me; vote for me cause I had nothing to do with anything!"

Wonder how this will stand up beside all the bad press the current DA has been getting ref. the suppression of evidence, the Shaner thingy, the cases reduced/overturned/back to court. Maybe voters will buy the fact that, even with all the 'supervisory' experience, there is still a DA's office, the purpose of which is to try cases & win.

Has anyone on this board ever come across a link to this: "Second, by all accounts, there were people in the home before RFG was reported missing, for hours." If so, would you please post that link?

I've never read nor heard such a statement, Rho. I'm not saying it's not out there somewhere, but I've read quite a bit. Where did you learn of this?

[Willoughby]

Yep, Willoughby. You called it. I call his tactic, "guilty-by-association incompetence". Hope the voters don't buy it.

We shall see. But he is doing as I expected - sitting back and saying little until the Democrats have a nominee. Then he'll blame many of his office's issues on Gricar's poor hiring decisions, he'll point to the fact he is personally undefeated at trial (I think he's 7-0) and then he'll drop the bomb on RG, if he has one.

And if JKA is the nominee, damn, is that going to be a show.

You have to ask yourself, what else did police find on the home computer? I may have gotten a bit cynical in my old age, but LE knows something. I'd be willing to bet they found more than searches on "frying" hard drives.

MM's a master politician and extremely politically savvy. He also has a lot of money behind him. Don't count him out, despite all of the high-profile debacles during the last three years.

[Rhododendron]

I've never read nor heard such a statement, Rho. I'm not saying it's not out there somewhere, but I've read quite a bit. Where did you learn of this?

Well, I learned of this by reading a direct quote by JJ in Phila on another board; efforts to obtain a link were met with another quote that' it was LE who was in the house . . . before PF reported RG missing . . . for hours.

[J. J. in Phila]

I've never read nor heard such a statement, Rho. I'm not saying it's not out there somewhere, but I've read quite a bit. Where did you learn of this?


From me. I was referring to PEF and the police, taking the report. Some potted plants like to twist things other than their root systems.

[J. J. in Phila]

We shall see. But he is doing as I expected - sitting back and saying little until the Democrats have a nominee. Then he'll blame many of his office's issues on Gricar's poor hiring decisions, he'll point to the fact he is personally undefeated at trial (I think he's 7-0) and then he'll drop the bomb on RG, if he has one.

And if JKA is the nominee, damn, is that going to be a show.


JKA would be a disaster as a candidate. I've heard she's a good attorney, but she's made some political mistakes, and she wasn't too strong going into this. Worst part about it is, he can use me to hit her, and I can't stop it.

It hurts TdB as well. Both can be seen as being connected to RFG. SPM is clean that regard.


You have to ask yourself, what else did police find on the home computer? I may have gotten a bit cynical in my old age, but LE knows something. I'd be willing to bet they found more than searches on "frying" hard drives.


This is one where I have a fear of the unknown. We've already seen some rumors in the comment sections of the story on the drive.


MM's a master politician and extremely politically savvy. He also has a lot of money behind him. Don't count him out, despite all of the high-profile debacles during the last three years.

Bingo. That is lost on a lot of the folks on the board.

[Willoughby]

JKA would be a disaster as a candidate. I've heard she's a good attorney, but she's made some political mistakes, and she wasn't too strong going into this. Worst part about it is, he can use me to hit her, and I can't stop it.

It hurts TdB as well. Both can be seen as being connected to RFG. SPM is clean that regard.



This is one where I have a fear of the unknown. We've already seen some rumors in the comment sections of the story on the drive.



Bingo. That is lost on a lot of the folks on the board.

What's most frightening about some board members' blind support of JKA is that they know at least some of her problems, from what I've read.

Usually, when a candidate admits to an emotional meltdown on their campaign web site, it's a problem. But what do I know.

[J. J. in Phila]

What's most frightening about some board members' blind support of JKA is that they know at least some of her problems, from what I've read.

Usually, when a candidate admits to an emotional meltdown on their campaign web site, it's a problem. But what do I know.

The direct quote was "emotional fallout," which is possibly less than a "meltdown." Had I been advising her, I would not have suggested that she discuss anything "emotional." The real problem is the question, "What have you been doing for the last 3 1/4 years?"

The most frightening part is that two supposed supporters chose to bring the subject up and then began to supply answers to the question, that didn't help. That's like an MM supporter to begin talking about texting. :rolleyes:

Kudos again for calling MM's strategy so well.

[Serendipitous1]

Pretty ironic how the only Republican candidate continues to struggle to get out of Gricar's shadow...and how some of the Democratic candidates try to use Gricar's shadow as a 'foot in the door'...when this contest actually has little or nothing to do with Gricar at all. Political football, anyone?

[J. J. in Phila]

Pretty ironic how the only Republican candidate continues to struggle to get out of Gricar's shadow...and how some of the Democratic candidates try to use Gricar's shadow as a 'foot in the door'...when this contest actually has little or nothing to do with Gricar at all. Political football, anyone?


A political hot potato and MM is wearing oven mitts.

[Serendipitous1]

A political hot potato and MM is wearing oven mitts.But he ain't the 'Teflon Don'. And there is at least one person who knows how to get his goat.

[J. J. in Phila]

But he ain't the 'Teflon Don'. And there is at least one person who knows how to get his goat.

And he's being dismissed, wrongly, IMO, as "delusional" and a "conspiracy theorist." :(

[Willoughby]

Pretty ironic how the only Republican candidate continues to struggle to get out of Gricar's shadow...and how some of the Democratic candidates try to use Gricar's shadow as a 'foot in the door'...when this contest actually has little or nothing to do with Gricar at all. Political football, anyone?

Very ironic. As hard as he tries, MM can't get out of that big shadow and the Democratic candidates, at least two of them, desperately want in. If I were advising them, I'd tell them to stay away from Gricar until the other shoe falls. At the rate things are going, being allied with Gricar may not be a good idea.

I couldn't agree more that Gricar has nothing to do with this election. He's gone.

[Willoughby]

The direct quote was "emotional fallout," which is possibly less than a "meltdown." Had I been advising her, I would not have suggested that she discuss anything "emotional." The real problem is the question, "What have you been doing for the last 3 1/4 years?"

The most frightening part is that two supposed supporters chose to bring the subject up and then began to supply answers to the question, that didn't help. That's like an MM supporter to begin talking about texting. :rolleyes:

Kudos again for calling MM's strategy so well.

Thanks. But now that I've laid out my prediction, I'm out of things to say. :shrug:

[Willoughby]

The direct quote was "emotional fallout," which is possibly less than a "meltdown." Had I been advising her, I would not have suggested that she discuss anything "emotional." The real problem is the question, "What have you been doing for the last 3 1/4 years?"

The most frightening part is that two supposed supporters chose to bring the subject up and then began to supply answers to the question, that didn't help. That's like an MM supporter to begin talking about texting. :rolleyes:

Kudos again for calling MM's strategy so well.

That was a bit frightening, amusing as well. The diehard supporter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nll8-kSlq6c) is the one to drop the dime, when no one else did. Funny. :patriot:

[nittany90]

I realize that we live in a free world where we can freely express ourselves. And I realize that message boards are a specific avenue to express opinions.

I also know that I'm the "freshman" here, and will probably become a specific target now, but I can't keep my mouth shut.

Frankly, I can't understand how bashing other posters, criticizing their points of view and gossipping across message boards, can possibly aid in the search for the truth about what happened to Gricar.

Am I correct, that since all these posts are going on under the "Ray Gricar" threats in cyberspace, finding the truth surrounding his disappearance, wherever that truth may lead, is the common goal???

Seriously, people. I'm here (and there) hoping to uncover something LE missed. My guess is, over the years, lots of people have been drawn to the boards for the same reason. But after a few weeks, slink away because of the "personality clashes and junior high antics" that seem to occupy the space. We need fresh ideas, fresh eyes in order to look at the same piece of the meager evidence for a 100th time, maybe finding something we missed before. Chasing away those "fresh eyes" can't possibly help the cause.

I just wish we could all agree to disagree and keep looking for the truth. Naive? Probably. Hopeful? Without a doubt.

As always, this is JMO.

[Willoughby]

I realize that we live in a free world where we can freely express ourselves. And I realize that message boards are a specific avenue to express opinions.

I also know that I'm the "freshman" here, and will probably become a specific target now, but I can't keep my mouth shut.

Frankly, I can't understand how bashing other posters, criticizing their points of view and gossipping across message boards, can possibly aid in the search for the truth about what happened to Gricar.

Am I correct, that since all these posts are going on under the "Ray Gricar" threats in cyberspace, finding the truth surrounding his disappearance, wherever that truth may lead, is the common goal???

Seriously, people. I'm here (and there) hoping to uncover something LE missed. My guess is, over the years, lots of people have been drawn to the boards for the same reason. But after a few weeks, slink away because of the "personality clashes and junior high antics" that seem to occupy the space. We need fresh ideas, fresh eyes in order to look at the same piece of the meager evidence for a 100th time, maybe finding something we missed before. Chasing away those "fresh eyes" can't possibly help the cause.

I just wish we could all agree to disagree and keep looking for the truth. Naive? Probably. Hopeful? Without a doubt.

As always, this is JMO.

I apologize for the failed attempt at humor, which seems to have offended you, Nit. But I know full well what you are speaking about, since I was run off the other boards by "the gang." You'll be fine so long as you don't disagree with "them."

Finding the truth in this case on message boards is going to be near impossible considering LE clearly knows far more than they are saying. Until all information is released into the light of day, we're just shooting into the dark hoping against all hope that we're going to hit something.

That said, I guess I just convinced myself I'm wasting my time and should instead take up gardening, or something along those lines.

Again, Nit, I apologize that my attempt at being funny missed its mark. Good luck. :seeya:

[nittany90]

I apologize for the failed attempt at humor, which seems to have offended you, Nit. But I know full well what you are speaking about, since I was run off the other boards by "the gang." You'll be fine so long as you don't disagree with "them."

Finding the truth in this case on message boards is going to be near impossible considering LE clearly knows far more than they are saying. Until all information is released into the light of day, we're just shooting into the dark hoping against all hope that we're going to hit something.

That said, I guess I just convinced myself I'm wasting my time and should instead take up gardening, or something along those lines.

Again, Nit, I apologize that my attempt at being funny missed its mark. Good luck. :seeya:

Will -
I'm not offended, by your remark or anyone else's. It would take a lot more to offend me. And my comment was directed at no-one and at everyone. Just, thru these newcomer's eyes, it seems like so much effort is being wasted. You are probably right, because of the lack of evidence, we're probably wasting our time and shooting in the dark. I have said that to myself many, many times. But, still I'm here. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :shrug:

I, for one, enjoy your posts and your insight. Please don't leave on my account. You share my interest in this case. And we need all the eyes we can get. Would gardening be more productive? Yep. But, I would miss your thoughts.

[Willoughby]

Will -
I'm not offended, by your remark or anyone else's. It would take a lot more to offend me. And my comment was directed at no-one and at everyone. Just, thru these newcomer's eyes, it seems like so much effort is being wasted. You are probably right, because of the lack of evidence, we're probably wasting our time and shooting in the dark. I have said that to myself many, many times. But, still I'm here. Guess I'm a glutton for punishment. :shrug:

I, for one, enjoy your posts and your insight. Please don't leave on my account. You share my interest in this case. And we need all the eyes we can get. Would gardening be more productive? Yep. But, I would miss your thoughts.

I'm leaving of my own accord, Nit. I got in because I saw the political ramifications of the dog and pony show put on by BPD and MM a day before the anniversary. I've said my peace on all of that, so ...

Not to be repetitive, but an answer is not coming from the message boards. Police know far more than they are saying. I cannot stress that enough. They're all laughing at a joke that we aren't in on. Until they open up, we're in the dark.

I admire your determination and the time you've apparently invested in all of this. I sincerely wish you and all the other posters luck, and nothing but the best. With that, I'm going back to my plow. :seeya:

[Politigal]

I apologize for the failed attempt at humor, which seems to have offended you, Nit. But I know full well what you are speaking about, since I was run off the other boards by "the gang." You'll be fine so long as you don't disagree with "them."

Finding the truth in this case on message boards is going to be near impossible considering LE clearly knows far more than they are saying. Until all information is released into the light of day, we're just shooting into the dark hoping against all hope that we're going to hit something.

That said, I guess I just convinced myself I'm wasting my time and should instead take up gardening, or something along those lines.

Again, Nit, I apologize that my attempt at being funny missed its mark. Good luck. :seeya:

Wow...you must really be very thin-skinned.

You weren't run off the board. You just couldn't take it that someone had a different opinion than you.

[J. J. in Phila]

I'm leaving of my own accord, Nit. I got in because I saw the political ramifications of the dog and pony show put on by BPD and MM a day before the anniversary. I've said my peace on all of that, so ...

Not to be repetitive, but an answer is not coming from the message boards. Police know far more than they are saying. I cannot stress that enough. They're all laughing at a joke that we aren't in on. Until they open up, we're in the dark.

I admire your determination and the time you've apparently invested in all of this. I sincerely wish you and all the other posters luck, and nothing but the best. With that, I'm going back to my plow. :seeya:

I'd still like you to stay. You have excellent insight on the politics of this, which is obviously lost on a few posters. It much like the claim that year, that Morganelli was going to win the election, then he was win or do well in Central PA, then it was that he'd win in Centre County. Corbett, of course, did better than he did in 2004.

I do disagree with you on one point, some answers have come off of message boards; it has also come from people reading them. Somebody may ask the right question.

[Serendipitous1]

SS...or not SS (http://www.centredaily.com/personas/?plckPersonaPage=PersonaHome&plckUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785&insiteUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785&sid=pluck.centredaily.com)?

[J. J. in Phila]

SS...or not SS (http://www.centredaily.com/personas/?plckPersonaPage=PersonaHome&plckUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785&insiteUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785&sid=pluck.centredaily.com)?


SS.

Sometimes, you have to read between the lines.

[Serendipitous1]

SS. Sometimes, you have to read between the lines.Well...there was no 'reading between the lines' necessary there (ala 'nails on the chalkboard'). SS has said a lot...but I think he wants to say more. So what is the problem? Is it his 'voice'...or our 'ears'?

[J. J. in Phila]

Well...there was no 'reading between the lines' necessary there (ala 'nails on the chalkboard'). SS has said a lot...but I think he wants to say more. So what is the problem? Is it his 'voice'...or our 'ears'?

He has said a lot, we just missed it. (And I had to be told.)

Remember when I wrote about sending messages, and how I've done it?

[Serendipitous1]

We shall see. But he is doing as I expected - sitting back and saying little until the Democrats have a nominee. Then he'll blame many of his office's issues on Gricar's poor hiring decisions, he'll point to the fact he is personally undefeated at trial (I think he's 7-0) and then he'll drop the bomb on RG, if he has one.

And if JKA is the nominee, damn, is that going to be a show.

You have to ask yourself, what else did police find on the home computer? I may have gotten a bit cynical in my old age, but LE knows something. I'd be willing to bet they found more than searches on "frying" hard drives.

MM's a master politician and extremely politically savvy. He also has a lot of money behind him. Don't count him out, despite all of the high-profile debacles during the last three years.De Boef (http://pspb.org/vote08/blog/?p=73): "Think about how candidates try to get your vote."

Madeira (http://wearecentralpa.com/content/fulltext/?cid=29991): “My biggest concern is we're politicizing something that is specifically in this case our district attorney who has gone missing.”

[Willoughby]

Well...there was no 'reading between the lines' necessary there (ala 'nails on the chalkboard'). SS has said a lot...but I think he wants to say more. So what is the problem? Is it his 'voice'...or our 'ears'?

It's a little bit of both. The message isn't intended for us.

[J. J. in Phila]

It's a little bit of both. The message isn't intended for us.


And is there anyone out there to hear it?

[Serendipitous1]

It's a little bit of both. The message isn't intended for us.Someday perhaps you will explain it to me. I can be thick or thin, depending upon the 'rhythms'.

[Willoughby]

Someday perhaps you will explain it to me. I can be thick or thin, depending upon the 'rhythms'.

This quote from the CDT page you linked to got me thinking, a post supposedly from SS following one of the RG reports.

"Ray, if you're out there I'll take the Red Sox over the Tribe this year but I have to admit, it looks like the Tribe is do od die this season...spsloane"

What do you make of this? I know SS was quoted as saying he believes RG is alive and well, and that he believes his friend might do something like walk out on everyone. He also conceded that may be wishful thinking on his part.

Why is it "do od die this season" this season? Granted, the Sox did beat the Tribe two out of three times in April after SS's post.

[Willoughby]

And is there anyone out there to hear it?

That is a very real possibility. But the key question is this: Why? If RG walked out on everyone, he had to have had some real motive to do something so stupid. And he would have needed help. SS?

[J. J. in Phila]

That is a very real possibility. But the key question is this: Why? If RG walked out on everyone, he had to have had some real motive to do something so stupid. And he would have needed help. SS?

My famous "Inner Circle" list includes all the staff of the DA's office, and beyond. Let's just say I have a short list of five for the "Helper" category. One of those, one has passed a polygraph.

Let's just say of the four remaining, three are attorneys and might be bound by attorney-client privilege (but not necessarily so under oath).

[Serendipitous1]

This quote from the CDT page you linked to got me thinking, a post supposedly from SS following one of the RG reports.

"Ray, if you're out there I'll take the Red Sox over the Tribe this year but I have to admit, it looks like the Tribe is do od die this season...spsloane"

What do you make of this? I know SS was quoted as saying he believes RG is alive and well, and that he believes his friend might do something like walk out on everyone. He also conceded that may be wishful thinking on his part.

Why is it "do od die this season" this season? Granted, the Sox did beat the Tribe two out of three times in April after SS's post.Election year code-speak, directed at Gricar? But his 2-part comment the next day spoke of Gricar in the past tense, and suggested people should wait until the mystery is solved and the dust settles before judging him. Then again, that comment was directed at the "idiots", "clowns" and "morons". I suppose he just misses his friend...more so when attention in the press briefly flares up.

[J. J. in Phila]

Election year code-speak, directed at Gricar? But his 2-part comment the next day spoke of Gricar in the past tense, and suggested people should wait until the mystery is solved and the dust settles before judging him. Then again, that comment was directed at the "idiots", "clowns" and "morons". I suppose he just misses his friend...more so when attention in the press briefly flares up.

The tone of the second comment was far different than the first.

[Willoughby]

The tone of the second comment was far different than the first.

And this is why I don't know what to make of SS.

On one hand I see a heartbroken man deluding himself into believing his friend is alive and well, and had some good reason for abandoning his post, his friends, his girlfriend, etc. I guess for some, that option is easiest to accept. Anything is better than dead. This would explain the CDT message board mood swings.

And perhaps it went so far that, with SS working in the District Attorney's Office and privy to investigative rumors, perhaps that first post was a hidden warning to the disappeared RG, that police figured something out and are closing in.

Or, perhaps JJ's legendary "inner circle" idea is accurate, and SS was the one to help RG escape, for whatever reason. Maybe all SS is doing is trying to do is confuse the situation even more.

I think it's the first option though. SS hasn't grieved for his friend yet and has chosen denial over acceptance. Convincing yourself he's alive, and that he had a good reason for walking off is much less painful than admitting a friend is dead, perhaps murdered, perhaps dead by his own hands.

[J. J. in Phila]

The switch isn't so unusual. It's one thing to suggest RFG walked away. It's another to suggest he was gay.

My bet is that Sox take the pennant. ;)

[Willoughby]

The switch isn't so unusual. It's one thing to suggest RFG walked away. It's another to suggest he was gay.

My bet is that Sox take the pennant. ;)

I wholeheartedly agree. And MM wins the Series. ;)

[Serendipitous1]

I wholeheartedly agree. And MM wins the Series. ;)I might take exception to both. My sense is that SPM will get the nod in 2 weeks, and has a very good chance of dumping MM in Nov.

And I do not follow baseball much. Is there a baseball explanation for "it looks like the Tribe is do [or] die this season"?

[J. J. in Phila]

I might take exception to both. My sense is that SPM will get the nod in 2 weeks, and has a very good chance of dumping MM in Nov.

And I do not follow baseball much. Is there a baseball explanation for "it looks like the Tribe is do [or] die this season"?

PSM has a better chance than any of the others, but more that few of MM's problems may evaporate by October 1.

I don't know why the 2009 season is any more important to the Indians.

[Willoughby]

PSM has a better chance than any of the others, but more that few of MM's problems may evaporate by October 1.

I don't know why the 2009 season is any more important to the Indians.

My prediction is that the race is between SPM and TDB. JKA is a non-factor. Just look at the campaign web sites. JKA has one guest book signature, and note that signature is from someone outside of Centre County. ONE. She will not be the next DA. It reminds me of predictions that Morganelli was going to be beat Corbett. (I admit I too was wrong on that. I thought Corbett was going to win by an even larger margin than he did.)

SPM should win the Democratic nod. Still, I worry about Madeira in the fall. He knows what he's doing, and has some money behind him. Either way, the Andrew Rogers mess will be behind him. And we may have an answer as to what became of RG as icing on the cake.

So, JKA has the support of one non-Centre County resident. TDB has 14 guest book signatures.

SPM had a 143 when I checked last. So we know who has the grassroots support so far.

[J. J. in Phila]

W, I think that you are largely right. JKA might have a bit bigger non-Internet following. TdB may get some solid student votes. I still think SPM will win, with an outside chance of a majority, as opposed to a plurality.

[Serendipitous1]

I have spoken to a couple of people who are in the mix, and the consensus is that the democratic student vote will be minimal in the primary, and that it will be a clear, majority-backed SPM who opposes MM in the fall.

MM's many gaffes are fertile ground on which to mount a successful challenge. And as much as I would like a definitive solution to the Gricar mystery...anything coming from Madeira now, which falls short of being definitive, will only accrue to his inevitable downfall. And TC cannot save him from that fate.

[J. J. in Phila]

I have spoken to a couple of people who are in the mix, and the consensus is that the democratic student vote will be minimal in the primary, and that it will be a clear, majority-backed SPM who opposes MM in the fall.

MM's many gaffes are fertile ground on which to mount a successful challenge. And as much as I would like a definitive solution to the Gricar mystery...anything coming from Madeira now, which falls short of being definitive, will only accrue to his inevitable downfall. And TC cannot save him from that fate.

I have been saying "beyond a reasonable doubt." :)

[Serendipitous1]

I have been saying "beyond a reasonable doubt." :)'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is akin to 'definitive evidence'. But, in this instance, it has no place...yet. There is no evidence yet presented to the public (by LE or others) which is definitive in terms of absolutely explaining any aspect of this mystery. That you do not understand the difference is of no consequence.

[J. J. in Phila]

'Beyond a reasonable doubt' is akin to 'definitive evidence'. But, in this instance, it has no place...yet. There is no evidence yet presented to the public (by LE or others) which is definitive in terms of absolutely explaining any aspect of this mystery. That you do not understand the difference is of no consequence.

I am anticipating the overall solution.

I disagree with you, bluntly, if you claim no detail of the mystery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is that those details do not lead to an explanation of the mystery.

Some pieces of the puzzle are clear, but most are not.

[Serendipitous1]

I am anticipating the overall solution.

I disagree with you, bluntly, if you claim no detail of the mystery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. The problem is that those details do not lead to an explanation of the mystery.

Some pieces of the puzzle are clear, but most are not.Your objection is duly noted. But no detail of this mystery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt...though I, like you, have accepted certain things as being true, in order to be able to theorize beyond.

The 'overall solution' is the goal. But I do not see that coming anytime soon. And solutions have never, to my knowledge, come from a message board...which pretty much means that you, and I, and others are just pissing in the wind and sh1t out of luck.

[J. J. in Phila]

Your objection is duly noted. But no detail of this mystery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt...though I, like you, have accepted certain things as being true, in order to be able to theorize beyond.

The 'overall solution' is the goal. But I do not see that coming anytime soon. And solutions have never, to my knowledge, come from a message board...which pretty much means that you, and I, and others are just pissing in the wind and sh1t out of luck.

Ideas have come from the public; see my latest blog. How important that is, I cannot tell you. Two pieces of the puzzle emerged from reading message boards, newspaper accounts, and possibly blogs.

We may not have the right answer, but someone might ask the right question.

[Willoughby]

Your objection is duly noted. But no detail of this mystery has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt...though I, like you, have accepted certain things as being true, in order to be able to theorize beyond.

The 'overall solution' is the goal. But I do not see that coming anytime soon. And solutions have never, to my knowledge, come from a message board...which pretty much means that you, and I, and others are just pissing in the wind and sh1t out of luck.

Amen, S1. Two things have become painfully clear of late. One, is that MR is heads and shoulders above DZ as far as being an actual detective. Two, LE knows far, far more than it is saying. There could be two reasons for that. LE could be easing us into a walkaway/body-less suicide finality. Or, police have a suspect, or suspects, and are lulling them into a false sense of security while nailing down enough evidence for an arrest warrant(s).

My bet, it's going to be ruled a walkaway, but who knows? Certainly not us. And until LE plays its hand, we are firing off shots into the darkness. While I greatly respect the work of JJ of Phila and his blog, I do not believe the answer will come from message boards. That is why it is the politics that drew me into the boards, not the investigation. I'm not going to pontificate on matters I know nothing about.

There is a chance the answer is already known to LE.

[Willoughby]

MM's problems just intensified, if that was somehow possible.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1273895.html

But you know who MM's going to blame for this? The man who hired LM ...

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't think the answer will come from the Internet, but the right question may. I don't have any mega answers, only questions and a filter for some of wilder, "troll under bridge" stuff.

MM's problems just intensified, if that was somehow possible.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1273895.html

But you know who MM's going to blame for this? The man who hired LM ...

Maybe not. I doubt that the grand jury will report before the election. It becomes, "Sorry, I can't comment on the case because it's in front of a grand jury. By the way, LM was hired by RFG just like JKA and TdB." TdB raised LM conduct on a case and MM basically responded, "How dare you refer to a guy that I got rid of."

MM is a good politician.

[2-B]

I don't see MM declaring the case a walkaway without significant evidence, including confirmation that RG is alive and well and living some place else.

If he has designs on a higher office later, I don't see him taking the chance on anything less.

Better to declare the case "cold" if he wants it off his plate than to risk declaring it a walkaway prematurely. It would be extremely difficult for him to explain RG's remains turning up in six months, a year, or two years and examination of the remains showing indications he was murdered.

My opinion only.

[J. J. in Phila]

I don't see MM declaring the case a walkaway without significant evidence, including confirmation that RG is alive and well and living some place else.

If he has designs on a higher office later, I don't see him taking the chance on anything less.

Better to declare the case "cold" if he wants it off his plate than to risk declaring it a walkaway prematurely. It would be extremely difficult for him to explain RG's remains turning up in six months, a year, or two years and examination of the remains showing indications he was murdered.

My opinion only.

He doesn't need to declare it cold. It is cold and he basically said in the first year in office.

The only think that will help is a solution, but it has to one based on evidence, not just a pronouncement.

[Serendipitous1]

I don't see MM declaring the case a walkaway without significant evidence, including confirmation that RG is alive and well and living some place else.

If he has designs on a higher office later, I don't see him taking the chance on anything less.

Better to declare the case "cold" if he wants it off his plate than to risk declaring it a walkaway prematurely. It would be extremely difficult for him to explain RG's remains turning up in six months, a year, or two years and examination of the remains showing indications he was murdered.

My opinion only.Then he best would solve this mystery before November. Anything less leaves him that much more vulnerable...and he is already vulnerable.

All 3 democratic candidates have what it takes to be an effective DA in Centre County. But only one has what it takes to win that office, IMHO.

De Boef's hands are tied by his own political philosophy...not to mention the million dollars of our money, thrown at his feet to revitalize a neighborhood that had no special need, compared to other similarly affected communities in this state.

Arnold lost to Madeira once before...and she has 'issues'. Her candidacy this time around will get zero backing.

There is only one intelligent choice...and that is Stacy Parks Miller. I am convinced that she will doggedly pursue Madeira's failures; she will be the next District Attorney in Centre County; and it will have nothing to do with Ray Gricar...unless Madeira is foolish enough to make Ray Gricar an issue.

There are a lot of other issues with Madeira. But if Centre County Democrats want the opportunity to have a truly fresh set of eyes put on the Gricar mystery, they will 'touch screen' Stacy Parks Miller when they go to vote.

[2-B]

He doesn't need to declare it cold. It is cold and he basically said in the first year in office.

The only think that will help is a solution, but it has to one based on evidence, not just a pronouncement.

Haven't you said in the past you think MR is careful and precise in his wording?

I know for a fact that MR has recently said the investigation into Ray Gricar's disappearance is still active.

[J. J. in Phila]

Haven't you said in the past you think MR is careful and precise in his wording?

I know for a fact that MR has recently said the investigation into Ray Gricar's disappearance is still active.

We were discussing MM, not MR.

MM just "declaring" it cold doesn't add any luster to his political reputation.

[Willoughby]

Haven't you said in the past you think MR is careful and precise in his wording?

I know for a fact that MR has recently said the investigation into Ray Gricar's disappearance is still active.

I too am of the mind that MR is extremely precise in what he says, based upon everything I've read and heard around here. Look at it this way, 2-B, there was a reason the latest information was released via press release.

Press releases are tools used partly to control the release of information and to avoid further questions from the news media. The use of a press release in this instance tells me they were being extremely careful about what they said and how they said it, with MM approving every word. That said, I believe police do indeed know RG performed those searches on hard drive destruction, and I am considering a new theory where I'm falling back into my belief that RG took his own life. I also believe police have a very good reason for not saying how they know RG performed the searches.

If you look at what we've been told, RG seemed almost obsessed with making sure that hard drive was erased. He looked at software in stores. He mentioned his desire to clean the hard drive to PF. He mentions this to others and inquires as to methods. Then, not surprisingly, that laptop does indeed end up destroyed, with a bit of overkill. The hard drive is separated from the much larger computer, which would be more likely to be discovered. RG could have been continuing with the obsession, doing everything he could possibly think of to one, make that hard drive disappear, and two, make sure it was unreadable if it was somehow discovered. Mission accomplished.

Perhaps on that hard drive was the missing motivation for depression and suicide. Whatever it is, LE may now know whatever it was RG was trying to erase.

But as much as I think this was a suicide, the fact that no body turned up is a serious problem in that theory.

And 2-B, there are things, certain platitudes, that LE has to make. Until they announce a resolution, MR must say the case is active. He also must continue with the three theories. If LE leans toward any one theory and they are wrong, it will come back to bite them should this turn into a homicide and a suspect is arrested. Any defense attorney worth his salt will go nuts in the press, arguing LE thought suicide or walkaway and now they charge someone? Sticking to all three theories, at least publicly, is the equivalent of the news media's always striving for objectivity. With objectivity comes credibility. I'm not naive enough to believe LE is still going back and forth between three theories.

LE's settled on one.

[Willoughby]

We were discussing MM, not MR.

MM just "declaring" it cold doesn't add any luster to his political reputation.

MM was calling this a "cold" case within months of being sworn in. Declaring it "solved" would be a severe deviation from the norm, which would make quite a splash in an election year.

[Willoughby]

One more thought in continuing with the suicide theory and the presumption that RG did indeed make those searches for ways to destroy a hard drive. This is just a theory.

I've seen it argued that it makes no sense that RG would try so hard to wipe his laptop hard drive and yet make no effort to cover up the fact he explored the methodology on his home computer. Actually, it makes perfect sense, based on what we've been told.

Again, presuming RG made those searches, he was so obsessed with destroying whatever was on the laptop hard drive, and making sure no one saw what he'd been doing, that he didn't give a damn about the home computer. So LE will find out he'd been studying up on destroying hard drives, so what? So long as no one saw what was on the laptop hard drive. That was all he cared about.

That all the more plays into my suicide theory. If a man is that worried about destroying a hard drive, and not at all concerned with covering up the fact that he was doing it, perhaps there was something on that laptop he was ashamed of, IMO.

Shame can lead to depression, depression can lead to suicide. We've all argued he had no motive or reason to kill himself. But what if he destroyed the reason so no one would ever find out?

Now, I know RG saw firsthand what suicide does to the survivors, considering how he aided his family when his brother took his own life by drowning. Many may argue, he'd never do that to his loved ones. But perhaps, if his grief and perhaps self loathing was such, he would commit the irrational act of suicide, but in such a way as the body isn't found, to spare his family that pain. And he sets it up to look like a walkaway, so they can convince themselves that he's out there somewhere, alive and well, even though he abandoned them.

SS got me thinking on this, perhaps accidentally, with a little help from JJ in Phila. It was first the bizarre "message" SS sent out to Ray about the Tribe, but then the furious defenses of RG when CDT comment posters questioned his friend's sexuality.

"Willoughby, next stop, Willoughby ... " (Another obscure TZ reference ;) )

[J. J. in Phila]

If you look at what we've been told, RG seemed almost obsessed with making sure that hard drive was erased. He looked at software in stores. He mentioned his desire to clean the hard drive to PF. He mentions this to others and inquires as to methods. Then, not surprisingly, that laptop does indeed end up destroyed, with a bit of overkill. The hard drive is separated from the much larger computer, which would be more likely to be discovered. RG could have been continuing with the obsession, doing everything he could possibly think of to one, make that hard drive disappear, and two, make sure it was unreadable if it was somehow discovered. Mission accomplished.



Good to see you post.

I have reason to believe that there is more supporting evidence that RFG destroyed the drive.

The thing is, his reason may not be tied to his disappearance. That he wanted to do it for a while, and that he (per MR) searched for how to do it, does not point directly to suicide.

And then, no body.

[nittany90]

I too am of the mind that MR is extremely precise in what he says, based upon everything I've read and heard around here. Look at it this way, 2-B, there was a reason the latest information was released via press release.

Press releases are tools used partly to control the release of information and to avoid further questions from the news media. The use of a press release in this instance tells me they were being extremely careful about what they said and how they said it, with MM approving every word. That said, I believe police do indeed know RG performed those searches on hard drive destruction, and I am considering a new theory where I'm falling back into my belief that RG took his own life. I also believe police have a very good reason for not saying how they know RG performed the searches.

If you look at what we've been told, RG seemed almost obsessed with making sure that hard drive was erased. He looked at software in stores. He mentioned his desire to clean the hard drive to PF. He mentions this to others and inquires as to methods. Then, not surprisingly, that laptop does indeed end up destroyed, with a bit of overkill. The hard drive is separated from the much larger computer, which would be more likely to be discovered. RG could have been continuing with the obsession, doing everything he could possibly think of to one, make that hard drive disappear, and two, make sure it was unreadable if it was somehow discovered. Mission accomplished.

Perhaps on that hard drive was the missing motivation for depression and suicide. Whatever it is, LE may now know whatever it was RG was trying to erase.

But as much as I think this was a suicide, the fact that no body turned up is a serious problem in that theory.

And 2-B, there are things, certain platitudes, that LE has to make. Until they announce a resolution, MR must say the case is active. He also must continue with the three theories. If LE leans toward any one theory and they are wrong, it will come back to bite them should this turn into a homicide and a suspect is arrested. Any defense attorney worth his salt will go nuts in the press, arguing LE thought suicide or walkaway and now they charge someone? Sticking to all three theories, at least publicly, is the equivalent of the news media's always striving for objectivity. With objectivity comes credibility. I'm not naive enough to believe LE is still going back and forth between three theories.

LE's settled on one.

I specifically agree with the part of your post bolded above. While I do not agree with your scenario of suicide, I do enjoy reading your posts and appreciate the careful thought behind them. :)

[J. J. in Phila]

Now, I know RG saw firsthand what suicide does to the survivors, considering how he aided his family when his brother took his own life by drowning. Many may argue, he'd never do that to his loved ones. But perhaps, if his grief and perhaps self loathing was such, he would commit the irrational act of suicide, but in such a way as the body isn't found, to spare his family that pain. And he sets it up to look like a walkaway, so they can convince themselves that he's out there somewhere, alive and well, even though he abandoned them.




Well, I don't know if I'd call it an "obsession." It took him 12-14 months between the research and the act. And I can think of numerous other things he'd want to erase.

It seems crystal clear that there was something on that drive that RFG never wanted to see the light of day.

Even a perfect suicide would be hard to pull off, and I'd question if he "made it look a walkaway."


SS got me thinking on this, perhaps accidentally, with a little help from JJ in Phila. It was first the bizarre "message" SS sent out to Ray about the Tribe, but then the furious defenses of RG when CDT comment posters questioned his friend's sexuality.



Many people send signals. ;)

[Willoughby]

I specifically agree with the part of your post bolded above. While I do not agree with your scenario of suicide, I do enjoy reading your posts and appreciate the careful thought behind them. :)

Thx. I'm not so sure I believe that theory either. :)

It's just that for the life of me I cannot come up with a plausible murder scenario. Some of the ones bantered about online would involve upwards of a half dozen people and include LE. I had one for a while, but I can't tie the pieces together.

And until someone can explain why in the blue hell RG would walk away from his pension and make a mockery of the men and women of LE, I don't buy walkaway. I know there is a way he could still recoup the pension without anyone knowing, but that would be too big of a risk.

I think he's dead. But how?

[J. J. in Phila]

Thx. I'm not so sure I believe that theory either. :)

It's just that for the life of me I cannot come up with a plausible murder scenario. Some of the ones bantered about online would involve upwards of a half dozen people and include LE. I had one for a while, but I can't tie the pieces together.

And until someone can explain why in the blue hell RG would walk away from his pension and make a mockery of the men and women of LE, I don't buy walkaway. I know there is a way he could still recoup the pension without anyone knowing, but that would be too big of a risk.

I think he's dead. But how?

In answer to you motive question, ego and/or money remains a possibility.

For murder, meating a friend/lover and something went bad is a possibility.

I'm Mr. Definitive today.

[Politigal]

I think J. Karen Arnold as DA would do more than De boef & Stacy Miller combined - to further the investigation of Gricar's disappearance.

And exactly what "issues" are you referring to S1. Spit 'em out.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think J. Karen Arnold as DA would do more than De boef & Stacy Miller combined - to further the investigation of Gricar's disappearance.

And exactly what "issues" are you referring to S1. Spit 'em out.

First, any candidate can do nothing until elected, so it becomes a question of electability.

You already have listed some electoral.

Another problem is her performance in the last election.

I will add that in the last campaign, in the interim between then and the current campaign, and during the current campaign, she has not offered anything concrete that the DA should do, or that she would do as DA.

[Politigal]

A great deal has changed since the last election...and Madeira is not even close to being "popular" now...And, who knows what political pressures were in play back then.

This article spells out what the candidates would do in the Gricar case if elected:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/17/candidates_vow_to_find_missing.aspx

J. Karen Arnold:

If she were voted into office, she would begin by reviewing the case file in detail from the start, examining witness statements, cell phone records and other reports, she wrote.

"I would then sit down with [Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn] Weaver and all officers, past and present, who have been involved at any level in the case, and talk to them in depth about why certain steps were taken or not taken," she wrote.

and another one of jj's claims bites the dust

[J. J. in Phila]

A great deal has changed since the last election...and Madeira is not even close to being "popular" now...And, who knows what political pressures were in play back then.

This article spells out what the candidates would do in the Gricar case if elected:

http://www.collegian.psu.edu/archive/2009/04/17/candidates_vow_to_find_missing.aspx

J. Karen Arnold:

If she were voted into office, she would begin by reviewing the case file in detail from the start, examining witness statements, cell phone records and other reports, she wrote.

"I would then sit down with [Bellefonte Police Chief Shawn] Weaver and all officers, past and present, who have been involved at any level in the case, and talk to them in depth about why certain steps were taken or not taken," she wrote.

and another one of jj's claims bites the dust



Madeira did that in 2006. Looking at the file and talking to the investigators is part of job. :rolleyes:

None of those things are new.

[Politigal]

There was a "mistakement" in post #201 and I simply corrected that in post #202.

:seeya:

[J. J. in Phila]

There was a "mistakement" in post #201 and I simply corrected that in post #202.

:seeya:

The only "mistakement" was confusing looking at the file and talking to the investigators with anything "new." :rolleyes:

Ironically, there have been others, McKinght, Buehner (and even me), that have publicly suggested more.

I can't believe you are actually confusing something done literally years ago with a new suggestion. :rolleyes:

[Serendipitous1]

Right on cue, Willoughby: "...the various assistant district attorneys hired by former District Attorney Ray Gricar..." (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html)

But the blame game will not work for MM. The moment he was sworn in, the ADAs were his hires, not RG's...just ask JKA.

[nittany90]

Right on cue, Willoughby: "...the various assistant district attorneys hired by former District Attorney Ray Gricar..." (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html)

But the blame game will not work for MM. The moment he was sworn in, the ADAs were his hires, not RG's...just ask JKA.

Excellent point, S1. If, as the chief Administrator, MM didn't think the ADAs were performing up to par, he had the power to do something about it -- but didn't (except in JKA's case) which I think, most would view more as a "political payback", than "just cause" due to poor job performance.

Whether it will work or not, remains to be seen. We know, as Willoughby correctly predicted, he will try it.

[nittany90]

SS got me thinking on this, perhaps accidentally, with a little help from JJ in Phila. It was first the bizarre "message" SS sent out to Ray about the Tribe, but then the furious defenses of RG when CDT comment posters questioned his friend's sexuality.

"Willoughby, next stop, Willoughby ... " (Another obscure TZ reference ;) )

Can you point me in the direction of the comments by SS and of the CDT posters to which is alluded to above?
TIA.

[Serendipitous1]

Can you point me in the direction of the comments by SS and of the CDT posters to which is alluded to above?
TIA.The SS link was in this post:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9187891&postcount=158
Anyone's guess as to the rest.

[J. J. in Phila]

Right on cue, Willoughby: "...the various assistant district attorneys hired by former District Attorney Ray Gricar..." (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html)

But the blame game will not work for MM. The moment he was sworn in, the ADAs were his hires, not RG's...just ask JKA.

Willoughby obviously understands the politics of case.

MM can make these arguments:

1. RFG wasn't around to tell me about these folks.

2. It's all RFG's fault, and look the candidate (JKA or TdB).

The thing is, SPM cannot be so characterized.

[nittany90]

The SS link was in this post:
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9187891&postcount=158
Anyone's guess as to the rest.


Thanks, S1. I didn't realize that was a link.

[Serendipitous1]

Thanks, S1. I didn't realize that was a link.My bad. Sometimes I get carried away with embeding links in text.

[Willoughby]

The race for the Democratic nod is between DeBoef and Stacy Parks Miller for sure now, based on everything published this weekend and this morning.

On the individual campaign web sites, SPM has 147 guest book signatures, TDB has 14 and JKA has one, from a non-Centre County resident. Granted, online opinions matter very little, but in this case, the signatures reflect a grass roots movement. We also learned JKA also has no financial support.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/politics/story/1279086.html

What bothered me most this weekend was the "mistakement" by JKA in her canned response to a CDT question, and that no one caught it. Here's the link.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html

She got the sexual assault cases confused. The case to which she was referring actually is Commonwealth v. Austin Scott. It wasn't Paxson. Both were similar however. Both were doomed to fail, both were prosecuted by LM, both were brought against high profile Penn State football players for questionable reasons.

One more interesting point regarding JKA, the praise offered up by Steve Sloane, who, last I'd heard, is employed by Michael Madeira. Granted, JKA's work ethic is above reproach and cannot be questioned, but for SS to be the one to say it? Interesting.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1279899.html

JKA's experience, work ethic and the dedication she would bring to the office cannot be questioned, in my opinion. But the fact of the matter is she has no support here in Centre County. Even if she would somehow pull off a massive upset in the primary, she'd never beat MM in the fall. MM wants to face her again. I'm backing someone who also has that dedication, work ethic, knowledge of the law, but also possesses the ability to beat MM. Stacy Parks Miller has my vote.

[Willoughby]

Willoughby obviously understands the politics of case.

MM can make these arguments:

1. RFG wasn't around to tell me about these folks.

2. It's all RFG's fault, and look the candidate (JKA or TdB).

The thing is, SPM cannot be so characterized.

MM spent the first few years of his term in the rather large shadow of Ray Gricar. There are two ways to deal with a shadow.

One, you mow down whatever is casting the shadow, or, you shine a light on that shadow.

MM is doing both.

I say again, if I were the candidate to face Madeira in the fall, the last thing I would do is tie myself to RG. The other shoe is going to drop.

[Willoughby]

Right on cue, Willoughby: "...the various assistant district attorneys hired by former District Attorney Ray Gricar..." (http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html)

But the blame game will not work for MM. The moment he was sworn in, the ADAs were his hires, not RG's...just ask JKA.

MM is nothing if not predictable. I hope you're right about the blame game, S1.

[J. J. in Phila]

One more interesting point regarding JKA, the praise offered up by Steve Sloane, who, last I'd heard, is employed by Michael Madeira. Granted, JKA's work ethic is above reproach and cannot be questioned, but for SS to be the one to say it? Interesting.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1279899.html



SS may be helping MM in two ways.

1. Talking about a work ethic points to the gap on the legal resume.

2. It is fairly common to build up a weaker candidate because it's easier to run against the weaker candidate.

Nasty, but effective. MM is a good politician.

[nittany90]

SS may be helping MM in two ways.

1. Talking about a work ethic points to the gap on the legal resume.

2. It is fairly common to build up a weaker candidate because it's easier to run against the weaker candidate.

Nasty, but effective. MM is a good politician.

Good points, if indeed, SS is working as a "political snake" for MM.
But, you've left out one real piece of possible motivation -- perhaps SS wants a different DA. Remember, it was MM who voted down SS's merit raise, and pointed to his "time off" on FMLA as reason to deny.

Perhaps SS has a political ax to grind, too. And not, necessarily, designed to benefit MM.

[nittany90]

The race for the Democratic nod is between DeBoef and Stacy Parks Miller for sure now, based on everything published this weekend and this morning.

On the individual campaign web sites, SPM has 147 guest book signatures, TDB has 14 and JKA has one, from a non-Centre County resident. Granted, online opinions matter very little, but in this case, the signatures reflect a grass roots movement. We also learned JKA also has no financial support.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/politics/story/1279086.html

What bothered me most this weekend was the "mistakement" by JKA in her canned response to a CDT question, and that no one caught it. Here's the link.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1278002.html

She got the sexual assault cases confused. The case to which she was referring actually is Commonwealth v. Austin Scott. It wasn't Paxson. Both were similar however. Both were doomed to fail, both were prosecuted by LM, both were brought against high profile Penn State football players for questionable reasons.

One more interesting point regarding JKA, the praise offered up by Steve Sloane, who, last I'd heard, is employed by Michael Madeira. Granted, JKA's work ethic is above reproach and cannot be questioned, but for SS to be the one to say it? Interesting.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1279899.html

JKA's experience, work ethic and the dedication she would bring to the office cannot be questioned, in my opinion. But the fact of the matter is she has no support here in Centre County. Even if she would somehow pull off a massive upset in the primary, she'd never beat MM in the fall. MM wants to face her again. I'm backing someone who also has that dedication, work ethic, knowledge of the law, but also possesses the ability to beat MM. Stacy Parks Miller has my vote.

Willoughby --
I'm not certain that JKA got the Scott/Paxson cases confused. In the third link you posted, she is correctly referring to the Paxson case, based upon the information included.
(snipped)

Arnold cited the high-profile case of former Penn State football standout Scott Paxson, for whom sexual assault charges never made it to the jury. Paxson in 2006 took a plea to disorderly conduct on the first day of trial because of an apparent legal mistake by an assistant prosecutor.

Those facts are correct. Paxson (not Scott) agreed to a plea-bargain in the 2006 case ("no contest" to disorderly conduct). Conversely, all charges were dropped against Scott in 2008, and therefore, no plea offered or accepted. Paxson's more serious charges were dismissed after opening statements, but before any witnesses were heard on the first day of trial. Scott's charges were withdrawn after a jury was selected, but before trial had begun.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1279899.html

I do, however, agree with your opinion that the two were similar and that both doomed to fail.

[Willoughby]

Willoughby --
I'm not certain that JKA got the Scott/Paxson cases confused. In the third link you posted, she is correctly referring to the Paxson case, based upon the information included.
(snipped)

Arnold cited the high-profile case of former Penn State football standout Scott Paxson, for whom sexual assault charges never made it to the jury. Paxson in 2006 took a plea to disorderly conduct on the first day of trial because of an apparent legal mistake by an assistant prosecutor.

Those facts are correct. Paxson (not Scott) agreed to a plea-bargain in the 2006 case ("no contest" to disorderly conduct). Conversely, all charges were dropped against Scott in 2008, and therefore, no plea offered or accepted. Paxson's more serious charges were dismissed after opening statements, but before any witnesses were heard on the first day of trial. Scott's charges were withdrawn after a jury was selected, but before trial had begun.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1279899.html

I do, however, agree with your opinion that the two were similar and that both doomed to fail.

She got them confused, Nit. Here's a quote from JKA in the link I'd provided:

"The Scott Paxson debacle is well-covered.

Paxson was withdrawn because an appellate court declined to review a rape-shield ruling before rather than after trial."

That was Commonwealth v. Austin Scott, not Paxson. Remember, MM and LM appealed to a higher court to prevent the jury from hearing about Austin Scott's accuser having leveled similar charges against another man some years prior.

Paxson was withdrawn because LM "opened the door" during opening arguments that would have put the district attorney's office on the witness stand to explain why Paxson was charged to begin with.

The common denominator in both embarrassments was LM.

An even bigger embarrassment for the DA's office came at the hands of Stacy Parks Miller. Remember the case where two counts of vehicular homicide while DUI were tossed because SPM realized the statute of limitations had expired on the case?

[Willoughby]

Good points, if indeed, SS is working as a "political snake" for MM.
But, you've left out one real piece of possible motivation -- perhaps SS wants a different DA. Remember, it was MM who voted down SS's merit raise, and pointed to his "time off" on FMLA as reason to deny.

Perhaps SS has a political ax to grind, too. And not, necessarily, designed to benefit MM.

I wonder why SS does or says any of the things he does, quite frankly. On one hand, perhaps SS has loyalty to JKA since he worked with her for years under Gricar. Perhaps he's already kissing up to the new boss?

Or perhaps JJ is right, and he's pushing his current boss's desired opponent?

[nittany90]

She got them confused, Nit. Here's a quote from JKA in the link I'd provided:

"The Scott Paxson debacle is well-covered.

Paxson was withdrawn because an appellate court declined to review a rape-shield ruling before rather than after trial."

That was Commonwealth v. Austin Scott, not Paxson. Remember, MM and LM appealed to a higher court to prevent the jury from hearing about Austin Scott's accuser having leveled similar charges against another man some years prior.

Paxson was withdrawn because LM "opened the door" during opening arguments that would have put the district attorney's office on the witness stand to explain why Paxson was charged to begin with.

The common denominator in both embarrassments was LM.

An even bigger embarrassment for the DA's office came at the hands of Stacy Parks Miller. Remember the case where two counts of vehicular homicide while DUI were tossed because SPM realized the statute of limitations had expired on the case?

You're absolutely right, Willoughby. In the second link, JKA does seem to confuse the 2 cases. But in the 3rd link, she seems to realize her mistake, and mentions correct statements about the Paxson case.

All evidently, to demonstrate how ineffective the DA's office has become and why it needs a new face at the helm.

[Willoughby]

You're absolutely right, Willoughby. In the second link, JKA does seem to confuse the 2 cases. But in the 3rd link, she seems to realize her mistake, and mentions correct statements about the Paxson case.

All evidently, to demonstrate how ineffective the DA's office has become and why it needs a new face at the helm.

There have been so many disastrous prosecutions and questionable decisions made by this regime that it's understandable how anyone can confuse one debacle for another. ;)

[J. J. in Phila]

There have been so many disastrous prosecutions and questionable decisions made by this regime that it's understandable how anyone can confuse one debacle for another. ;)

I've said MM is a very good politician; I've never said he was a good DA.

I've said JKA is a terrible politician; I've never said she'd make a terrible DA.

That said, I think SPM is a good politician; I've said I thing she'd make a great DA.

[Willoughby]

I've said MM is a very good politician; I've never said he was a good DA.

I've said JKA is a terrible politician; I've never said she'd make a terrible DA.

That said, I think SPM is a good politician; I've said I thing she'd make a great DA.

A correction to this JJ. MM is a ruthless politician.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/1282173.html

Ray Gricar, his memory, or the "investigation," don't stand a chance.

[J. J. in Phila]

A correction to this JJ. MM is a ruthless politician.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/breaking_news/story/1282173.html

Ray Gricar, his memory, or the "investigation," don't stand a chance.

I should warn those who wish a "political solution" to the Gricar case; they might get it. :(

I'm afraid this lost on a number of posters, especially in the other place.

[J. J. in Phila]

Some of the political aspects are playing out.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1282444.html

[Serendipitous1]

Some of the political aspects are playing out.
http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1282444.htmlThis from JKA sounded so familiar: “Mr. Madeira may be a terrible district attorney but he is a highly skilled politician”.

And TdeB and SPM both "stomped" JKA when she tried to tout her "experience". With one week to go, the gloves are finally off...at least in respect to JKA's candidacy. But that is "A Familiar Story: Policy Gives Way to Mudslinging (http://pspb.org/vote08/blog/?p=73)".

[Politigal]

I think SPM is actually quite akin to Sarah Palin....:)

She has the looks, and the gift of gab...but not the experience.

[Serendipitous1]

The CDT article on Sunday:
- Monday: KA...dogged work ethic (SS)
- Tuesday: TDB's upbeat personality (SS)
- Wednesday: SPM is a tenacious and worrying opponent, a colleague says.
I wonder who the colleague will be...hmmm.

High praise for Democrats, coming from a registered Republican ADA in a Republican-run office...and I use the word "run" loosely.

Side bar: Gotta love some people's compassion and sense of humor (http://www.centredaily.com/personas/?plckUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785&insiteUserId=42b7493266ca459ce19862373a353ed1-10785) too.

[Willoughby]

If Stacy Parks Miller does in fact win the Democratic nomination, wouldn't it be interesting to see her team up with JKA? SPM should clean house if she's able to defeat the political machine that is MM. Her first hire should be JKA as her first assistant.

"If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn
the world upside down all alone, these women together ought
to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again!
And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them."
-Sojourner Truth (1797-1883)

[J. J. in Phila]

If Stacy Parks Miller does in fact win the Democratic nomination, wouldn't it be interesting to see her team up with JKA? SPM should clean house if she's able to defeat the political machine that is MM. Her first hire should be JKA as her first assistant.

"If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn
the world upside down all alone, these women together ought
to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again!
And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them."
-Sojourner Truth (1797-1883)

Second assistant, but I'm not sure she'd take either.

[Serendipitous1]

Sounds like the old[er] folks at Foxdale Village had an entertaining time last evening. With a whole week left, I wonder if the Dems will continue to ramp-up the rhetoric. Who knows...maybe they shake hands after each engagement, tell each other the latest MM jokes, or even go have a beer together. Or, maybe not.

I always figured individuals were more important than political party...so it remains to be seen where the Dem nominee's support will come from (SS being a case in point). Whoever gets the nod next Tuesday, it should be an interesting summer/fall...whether or not the other shoe falls in the Gricar case.

[J. J. in Phila]

This from JKA sounded so familiar: “Mr. Madeira may be a terrible district attorney but he is a highly skilled politician”.

And TdeB and SPM both "stomped" JKA when she tried to tout her "experience". With one week to go, the gloves are finally off...at least in respect to JKA's candidacy. But that is "A Familiar Story: Policy Gives Way to Mudslinging (http://pspb.org/vote08/blog/?p=73)".

Apparently, some of my "amazing knowledge" is to know what she's going to say before she says it. :biggrin:

[Willoughby]

Apparently, some of my "amazing knowledge" is to know what she's going to say before she says it. :biggrin:

I was trying to figure out which of us JKA was quoting, you, me or S1. :)
She knows firsthand how good MM is politically, considering how badly she was bested last time.

[Politigal]

If Stacy Parks Miller does in fact win the Democratic nomination, wouldn't it be interesting to see her team up with JKA? SPM should clean house if she's able to defeat the political machine that is MM. Her first hire should be JKA as her first assistant.

"If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn
the world upside down all alone, these women together ought
to be able to turn it back, and get it right side up again!
And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them."
-Sojourner Truth (1797-1883)

I thought of the same thing last night. I think it would be a "dogged and tenacious" team...

[Willoughby]

Sounds like the old[er] folks at Foxdale Village had an entertaining time last evening. With a whole week left, I wonder if the Dems will continue to ramp-up the rhetoric. Who knows...maybe they shake hands after each engagement, tell each other the latest MM jokes, or even go have a beer together. Or, maybe not.

I always figured individuals were more important than political party...so it remains to be seen where the Dem nominee's support will come from (SS being a case in point). Whoever gets the nod next Tuesday, it should be an interesting summer/fall...whether or not the other shoe falls in the Gricar case.

For a political junkie/strategist, the match-up in the fall is going to be fun to watch.

I too wonder though just how badly the Democratic contenders will go after one another before the primary. With SPM and TDB, there really is nothing to go after, just levels of experience. But if either of those two sees JKA's experience as a threat to them next week, perhaps it will get ugly/amusing. But I don't see JKA as being enough of a threat to warrant going negative, with her having so little support, and no financial support. I think SPM and TDB will duke it out between them and for the most part, leave JKA out of it.

Based on everything I'm hearing and seeing, I'm not concerned about next week. It is the Madeira Political Machine that worries me in the fall.

[Willoughby]

I thought of the same thing last night. I think it would be a "dogged and tenacious" team...

I think they would do wonders together for the criminal justice system here. Having two relentless, highly intelligent women on the same side could only mean good things for the taxpayers and serious bad news for criminals.

However this plays out, I'd very much like to see them both in the DA's office.

[J. J. in Phila]

I think they would do wonders together for the criminal justice system here. Having two relentless, highly intelligent women on the same side could only mean good things for the taxpayers and serious bad news for criminals.

However this plays out, I'd very much like to see them both in the DA's office.

As I've said, most of JKA's problems are political, meaning she's not the best choice for a strong DA nominee. I'd have a few problems with her as DA (though not as many, and similar to those I'd have with TdB).

I'd have much less problems with her as an ADA.

[Politigal]

Arnold got 44% of the vote in '05....

http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=537861

IMO, a great number of those supporters would vote for her again this go-round.

[J. J. in Phila]

Arnold got 44% of the vote in '05....

http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=537861

IMO, a great number of those supporters would vote for her again this go-round.

The last time there was no incumbent Gricar/Goodall, with the county being more Republican, RFG won by about 600 votes.

Your opinion and the facts are two different thing.

[Politigal]

thought it was interesting...someone from SPM's law firm visited my googlepages

Maybe they're trying to learn more about the case.....

;)

[J. J. in Phila]

thought it was interesting...someone from SPM's law firm visited my googlepages

Maybe they're trying to learn more about the case.....

;)

Or trying to identify you.

[Willoughby]

I knew before reading this that Stacy Parks Miller outshines the other two candidates. But after reading this, and all of these endorsements speaking to her administrative experience, wow.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285152.html

[J. J. in Phila]

Article on SPM: http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285152.html

[Willoughby]

Or trying to identify you.

First off, it's a big firm. Second, if her team is monitoring the competitions' web sites, they know her identity, not that it matters.

[J. J. in Phila]

First off, it's a big firm. Second, if her team is monitoring the competitions' web sites, they know her identity, not that it matters.

And mine, hopefully. :)

There are some people I would to hide from. There are others I don't want to hide from. She is in the second group.

[Willoughby]

And mine, hopefully. :)

There are some people I would to hide from. There are others I don't want to hide from. She is in the second group.

You know what? SPM's firm also has a rather large civil law division. This is why anonymity should not be taken lightly here.

[Willoughby]

Michael Madeira was handed his first defeat by a jury in Centre County.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285155.html

Read Masorti's quotes. They're a riot.

Now here's an embarrassment that's not funny at all, yet again coming from our local version of Cheech and Chong, the Centre County District Attorney's Office.

http://www.centredaily.com/423/story/1285157.html

The worst pitchers in baseball do not walk as many people as Madeira does.

[Politigal]

I knew before reading this that Stacy Parks Miller outshines the other two candidates. But after reading this, and all of these endorsements speaking to her administrative experience, wow.

http://www.centredaily.com/news/local/story/1285152.html

the majority of endorsements come from Clearfield County...and they won't be voting in Centre County.

[Willoughby]

the majority of endorsements come from Clearfield County...and they won't be voting in Centre County.

But their words are heard throughout Centre County, and that is all that matters.