8-Year-Old Boy Arrested In Double-Homicide - Arizona

[odette]

Nov. 7, 2008

Boy may face murder charges in fatal shooting of father, boarder

An 8-year-old Arizona boy may face double-murder charges in the shooting death of his father and another man at the family residence, The Arizona Republic reported Friday on its Web site.

The child is being held in juvenile custody for a hearing scheduled for Friday afternoon in Apache County Justice Court.

St. John Police Chief Roy Melnick told the newspaper that officers arrived at the home in the rural community of St. John in eastern Arizona within minutes of the shooting on Wednesday. They found one of the victims deceased just outside the front door and another dead in an upstairs room.

• Article Continued

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

[odette]

Ariz. boy, 8, accused of killing 2, including dad

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (AP) — An 8-year-boy is accused of fatally shooting his father and another man in eastern Arizona.

St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick says the boy is charged with two counts of premeditated murder after the shootings Wednesday.

Killed were the boy's father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans.

Melnick says police arrived at a home shortly after the shooting and found one victim just outside the front door. The other was found in an upstairs room.

Melnick says the boy initially denied involvement but later confessed.

St. Johns is a community of about 4,000 people more than 150 miles northeast of Phoenix.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94AF6F81

[odette]

8-year-old St. Johns boy arrested in 2 killings

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (AP) - In a case that has "shocked" and "saddened" a small, rural eastern Arizona community, an 8-year-old boy has been charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man.

The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder in the deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39.

• Article Continued

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=9314632

[odette]

Ariz. boy, 8, charged in double slaying

http://www.timesoftheinternet.com/17879.html

[One2Snoop]

:eek: OMG! 8 years old?! :eek:

[odette]

Priest: Slain dad had taught boy, 8, to use guns

. . . . . http://i34.tinypic.com/2h4er7k.jpg

This photograph taken Saturday Nov. 8, 2008 shows the house where Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos, Ariz were found fatally shot in St. Johns, Ariz. on Wednesday. Police in this small eastern Arizona community are looking into the possibility that an 8-year-old boy who is charged with killing his father and another man with a rifle had been abused, the police chief said Saturday. (AP Photo/Dana Felthauser)

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should have a gun and had taught him how to use firearms, the clergyman said Sunday.

The Very Rev. John Paul Sauter said the father, Vincent Romero, 29, wanted his son to learn how to hunt, while the boy's stepmother, Tiffany, suggested he have a BB gun.

Police say the boy used a 22.-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.

Romero was an avid hunter who taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, said Sauter, of St. Johns Catholic Church.

"He wanted to make sure the kid wasn't afraid of guns, knew how to handle it," the priest said. "He was just too young. ... That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal."

The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said.

"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."

On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.

The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.

"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.

Police had responded to calls of domestic violence at the Romero home in the past, but authorities were searching records Saturday to determine when those calls were placed, Melnick said.

"We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side," he said.

Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St. Johns, which has a population of about 4,000 and is 170 miles northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.

Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St. Johns.

The boy went to a neighbor's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said.

Melnick said police got a confession, but the boy's attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.

"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counterbalance against that, the acts that he apparently committed."

FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare. According to recent FBI supplementary homicide reports, there were at least three such cases each year in 2003, 2004 and 2005; there were at least 15 in 2002. More recent statistics weren't available, nor were details of the cases.

Earlier this year in Arizona, prosecutors in Cochise County filed first-degree murder charges against a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother.

Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's biological mother visited St. Johns during the weekend from Mississippi and returned to Arizona after the shootings, Carlyon said.

Family members declined to speak on the record.

Brewer said the boy "seems to be in good spirits."

"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94B3I7G0

[sharlock]

Oh how sad! I have to say I hate the way police in America are always in such a rush to charge a child as an adult. They are not adults and cannot fully comprehend what they have done. this child could be rehabilitated and helped but not if he is stuck in an adults prison- you may as well give him the death penalty it would be kinder. America has by far the highest number of children in adult prisons in the world. More than every other country put together. Americans should really take issue with this and pressure the courts to stop this injustice.

[FDInLaw]

Heartbreaking! :rose: :(

[odette]

Two Are Killed, a Boy Is Charged and a Town Reels

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — People in this small, tight-knit community are reeling from the killing of a well-liked man the police say was shot by his own 8-year-old son.

Residents are expected to turn out in droves for his funeral. “I don’t think this church is big enough to handle it all,” said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. John the Baptist Catholic Church.

• Article Continued

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/10/us/10shooting.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[odette]

Ariz. town offers support for accused boy's family

ST. JOHNS - People in this small, tight-knit community are reeling from the killing of a well-liked man police say was shot by his 8-year-old son.

• Article Continued

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/09/20081109stjohnskillings.html

[odette]

Ariz. boy accused in slayings to appear in court

An 8-year-old boy is due in court two counts of premeditated murder as mourners prepare to remember his father.

The third-grader is due in court Monday, the same day as a funeral Mass is scheduled to be held for his dad at St. John the Baptist Catholic Church.

Police say the boy confessed to planning and carrying out the shooting deaths of 29-year-old Vincent Romero and a co-worker who rented a room from him. The men were found dead inside Romero's home northeast of Phoenix last week.

St. Johns police are hoping a judge will agree to try the boy as an adult but admit it's unlikely.

The boy's attorney says police questioned his client without representation from a parent or attorney and didn't advise the child of his rights.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/nov/10/ariz-boy-accused-in-slayings-to-appear-in-court/

[odette]

8-Year-Old Accused Of Dad's Slay In Court

Police Say Ariz. Boy Confessed To Shooting Deaths Of Father And His Co-Worker

(CBS/AP) Vincent Romero was no stranger to guns. The avid hunter reportedly asked his priest whether we should buy his young son a firearm.

Now his 8-year-old boy is due in court on two counts of premeditated murder.

• Article Continued

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/10/national/main4587265.shtml?source=mostpop_story

[One2Snoop]

Gag Order Issued In 8-Year-Old's Murder Trial
Boy Charged With Killing Father, Friend

POSTED: 9:27 am EST November 10, 2008
UPDATED: 4:38 pm EST November 10, 2008

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- A defense attorney said a judge has issued a gag order in the case of an 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man, KPHO-TV in Phoenix reported.

As a result, a planned police news briefing may not happen; however, the court hearing is still scheduled for 3 p.m.

Defense attorney Ron Wood said the order prevents police and attorneys from speaking publicly about the case.

St. Johns resident Vincent Romero and 39-year-old Tim Romans, who was renting a room at the house, were found dead Wednesday afternoon in Romero's home.

Less than 24 hours later, police announced they had solved the case, saying Romero's 8-year-old son confessed to shooting and killing the two men with a .22-caliber gun.

"We solved the crime," St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said. "Now we have to solve the mystery of why."

On NBC's "Today" show Monday morning, Melnick said, "There's no record of any problems in school, no reported abuse."

Wood echoed Melnick's assertion that the boy does not appear to have been abused.

"At this point in time, we haven't seen anything indicating abuse," Wood said. "We haven't heard of anything; we're not aware of anything."

Brewer, who is the boy's other defense attorney, said the case will not be a slam-dunk for the prosecution.

"Their evidence is very minimal," Brewer said. "There was overreaching with police with regard to their contact with him ... I think there's a very good likelihood that there could have been improper interview techniques done."

Brewer also said the prosecution is "just guessing at this time" with regards to any physical evidence.

The boy will appear in court Monday, and his public defenders said they plan to file a motion to request experts to help with the investigation.

They said they will also ask for crime scene access.

Wood said the attorneys are treating the boy's case "like any other first-degree murder case."

"Our position is that our responsibility -- our duty -- is to take care of (him), whatever the allegations," Wood said. "He is an 8-year-old boy; he is a third-grader ... He's frightened."

Brewer agreed.

"It's evident that he's shaken up, and he's scared," he said. "He played football … he liked soccer. He was yanked out of the comfortable situation, a situation he knew about, and put into a situation that he has no knowledge about. He's hurting.

"He's a scared little kid."

Additionally, the attorneys said nobody has stepped forward to take custody of the boy.

"We've got an 8 year-old client who is sitting in a detention facility who needs someone to take him home, and we haven't found that person," Wood said. "The stepmother didn't want to take custody of him. His mother hasn't taken custody of him.

"At this point in time, no one has come forward and indicated they're willing to take (him)."

Also on Monday, more than 600 mourners gathered at funeral services to remember Romero.

According to people at the funeral, which lasted about an hour and a half, community members remembered how much Romero loved his son.

Attendees said very little about the boy, except that the whole situation was "shocking."

Funeral services for Romans, who is from San Carlos, Ariz., are scheduled for Saturday at 10 a.m. in San Carlos. A wake will be held Friday at 3 p.m.

http://www.wesh.com/news/17945933/detail.html

[odette]

Friends dispute abuse suspicions in Ariz. slaying

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. (AP) — Hundreds of mourners packed a funeral Monday for a man allegedly shot to death by his 8-year-old son, while friends and neighbors disputed any suggestion the boy had been abused by his father.

They painted a picture of Vincent Romero as a caring father who seemed to be doing all he could to raise a polite and respectful boy.

"They were always together doing things as a family, fishing, hunting," Carlos Diaz, a cousin of Romero's current wife, said after the funeral Mass at St. John the Baptist Catholic Church.

About 600 people filled the rural Arizona church in this town of about 4,000. People who could not get in crowded around an open door or sat on chairs set up outside. Romero, an avid hunter, was in a casket with a camouflage lid.

• Article Continued

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94CBE7O0

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Prosecutors Say Boy Methodically Shot His Father

An 8-year-old Arizona boy charged with premeditated murder in the deaths of his father and another man shot each victim at least four times with a .22-caliber rifle, methodically stopping and reloading as he killed them, prosecutors said Monday.

Although investigators initially said they thought the boy might have suffered severe physical or sexual trauma, they have found no evidence of abuse, said Roy Melnick, the police chief in St. Johns, Ariz., where the shootings occurred. Psychologists say such abuse is often a factor in the extremely rare instances in which a small child murders a parent.

• Article Continued

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/11/us/11child.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

[sharlock]

This is pretty bizarre, MBS. An 8 year old would know he was doing the wrong thing. But I guess the 1st thing that gets me about this is that an 8 year old would know how to load guns, stop and refire etc. That is scary. The 2nd thing is that no rels or anyone has come forward to look after the child. The kid's either been abused or he's whacko. And from what I'm reading the pros says there's no sign of abuse. So they say. And no-one's saying that he's not a normal 8 year old. Interesting case.
I couldn't imagine teaching my son to use a gun at that age, I still get nervous watching him carry a hot drink for Gods sake. I read in articles that family and freinds are saying they don't think there was any abuse, but I am not so sure and I don't know how they can be. Abuse happens behind closed doors not out in the open.

[odette]

Channel C: 8-Year-Old Faces Murder Charges

Today on Channel C, an 8-year-old boy has confessed to the murder of his father and another man. Is he too young to face murder charges?

The boy heads to court Monday after admitting that he killed his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39. Both men were found dead in Romero's home Wednesday of last week. Police said Thursday that the boy had confessed to shooting the two men with a .22-caliber weapon, although no motive was given.

Now the boy is facing murder charges, and his legal team says it's preparing as it would for any other first-degree murder case. But should it have to?

It's a tricky situation. Oftentimes, I feel that youth offenders should be tried as adults, but in most of those cases the youths in question are at least in their teens. Does an 8-year-old, who watches Ninja Turtles and is learning simple multiplication, really understand the ramifications of his actions? It's hard to say. Obviously some form of punishment is required, but until a motive is given it's simply too early to say. A real tragedy for all involved.

• Article Continued

http://orato.com/current-events/2008/11/10/channel-c-8-year-old-faces-murder-charges

[odette]

You're absolutely correct. Abuse doesn't happen out in the open. The kid had a reason. What the reason was will take some trained professionals to work out. I still think it's sad for the kid that no-one's shown up for him. Where's his mother in all of this?

Hey JB .. small mention of the mother in this article.

The father had full custody of the 8-year-old boy. The boy's mother had visited St. Johns from Mississippi last weekend and returned to Arizona after the shootings on Wednesday, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/11/09/20081109stjohnskillings.html

[odette]

Another mention of the mother here.

Mourners Dispute Abuse Suspicions in Arizona Man Fatally Shot by Son, 8

Excerpt: The boy appeared in handcuffs at a court hearing on Monday afternoon. Some people in the audience cried as he entered. The boy sat restlessly in his chair next to his mother during the hearing. The mother declined to comment to reporters as she left the courthouse.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,449786,00.html

[sharlock]

Jeez MBS. The father had full custody and the kid blew him away! H'm. Dunno if Mum showing up is going to be a good thing. You know, some kids get it really tough don't they.

I find it difficult to deal with this concept of an 8 year old being charged with murder as though he was an adult. Obviously he isn't. I have read somewhere
in the US in the 30's I think a 13 year old being electrocuted for murder.
That's not going to happen here. The abuse will have to be looked into more thoroughly. The mother obviously isn't much chop. Something happened to make that kid snap.
Eww that sends shivers down my spine! The Step mum hasn't even tried to see him and her comments aren't about him at all but more things like "My husband was our sole provider, what are we going to do now?" Seems to me that a stepchild in that house probably couldn't have turned to his stepmum for help. The real Mum didn't turn up for the boy until days after, I am worried too but I pray she is there for him now for the right reasons.

[One2Snoop]

Yes I think there's definitely something wrong here but what I don't know.
I'd just like to relay a very scary situation that happened to me while I helped out in my daughters first grade class some 9 years ago - it was the first time either of my daughters had attended public school - we moved to the DC area for a short period of time and the new area we moved to we couldn't afford private so they went to public school.
There were kids of all races and economic backgrounds - I thought it was a great experience for my kids although I realized once they were put there they couldn't handle it - they'd been sheltered all their lives in a tiny private christian school. (our bad :punch: )
Anyhow, long story short I started volunteering in the school and I'll never forget the day this one kid came up to me and said, "you know I'm stronger than you and can I kill you in a second if I want to". MIND YOU THIS WAS A SIX YEAR OLD KID IN FIRST GRADE! :eek: This kid was 3 times the size of his fellow students and wanted hugs all the time - yet when he hugged you it was a hug to kill - not a hug of compassion or appreciation.
We've sinced moved to another state but I often think about this kid and I'd really like to know whats happened to him - if he's doing well in school or what. I remember having a conversation with his mother (single parent) at one point in time because he was harassing my daughter at school. His mother seemed disassociated or unconcerned and said she'd talk to him. Nothing changed - then we moved.

I agree there's something going on with this kid who killed his father and friend at the age of 8 - but I also believe he knew the difference between right and wrong when he picked up that shotgun and shot then reloaded - shot - reloaded - shot - reloaded. Now there's something definitely not right about that IMO.

[odette]

2nd man allegedy killed by boy called doting dad

PHOENIX (AP) — A man allegedly shot to death by an 8-year-old boy closely followed his daughters' sporting events and texted loving messages to his family while he lived apart from them for a construction job, his wife said Tuesday.

Tanya Romans said her husband, Timothy, worked a construction job in St. Johns for about a year while his family lived 170 miles away in metropolitan Phoenix. She and their 18- and 19-year-old daughters lived in metro Phoenix to be closer to college.

• Article Continued

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94D1QSO0

[odette]

Experts: Abuse often behind kids killing parents

PHOENIX (AP) — As an 8-year-old Arizona boy sits in a juvenile jail, charged with murdering his father and another man, the biggest unanswered question is "Why?"

Police say the boy planned and meticulously carried out the shootings, but they haven't discussed a motive. Child psychologists and others say that while many factors could cause a child to kill a parent, the most common in other cases has been severe abuse.

It's rare for children 8 and younger to commit homicide. No such crime occurred in the United States between 2005 and 2007, according to FBI statistics. Twenty-one children ages 5 to 8 committed homicide in the 10-year period ending in 2004, the statistics show.

"These are head-scratchers, especially when you have young people," said defense attorney Paul Mones, who has represented children accused of killing their parents and written a book called "When a Child Kills."

• Article Continued

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iG_nB7rdOr3TiaL5ph3YDR5qNNTAD94D9I003

[odette]

Mad or bad? Boy, 8, who shot dead father

PSYCHOLOGISTS were today preparing to examine an eight-year-old American boy in order to discover what led him to shoot dead his father and another man with a hunting rifle.

• Article Continued

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Mad-or-bad-Boy-8.4683917.jp

[odette]

Why Do Kids Kill?

8-Year-Old's Killing Spree Raises Questions About Why Children Murder

Investigators are still piecing together exactly what took place in an eastern Arizona home, where an 8-year-old boy allegedly shot and killed his father and another man, systematically reloading a rifle and firing at close range.

Details from the St. Johns crime scene are scant, and with a court-imposed gag order, little new information is likely to come out unless the boy is tried for the two counts of murder on which he has been charged.

Police initially suspected the boy had been physically or sexually abused, but before the gag order was imposed Monday, investigators said they had found no evidence of trauma.

"That's what makes this so troubling," Roy Melnick, chief of police in St. Johns, told the New York Times Tuesday.

• Article Continued

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=6233064

[odette]

SHOCKING DISCOVERY

8-Year-old Planned Murder of Father and Friend

An eight-year-old boy from Arizona has been arrested a couple of days after he killed his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and his friend Timothy Romans, the New York Times reported. He was transferred from a psychiatric institution which conducted his psychological evaluation into juvenile prison on Monday. The boy admitted to the murders. There is no evidence of him being physically or mentally abused, so the motives of the murders have not been established. There is the possibility that the boy planned the murders.

The men were killed with a hunting rifle which needs to be reloaded after every shot.

• Article Continued

http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=202911

[odette]

Mother Baffled in Arizona Murders

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. — The divorced mother of an 8-year-old boy accused of shooting his father and another man to death last week said she was as puzzled as everyone else about what led to the killings, but added that her son was not capable of the crime.

“I don’t believe he did this,” said Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared joint custody with her son’s father, Vincent Romero, 29, after their divorce six years ago.

She said that the boy, who lived here with his father and stepmother, had grown more withdrawn in recent months, and that she worried that he might have been abused in some way. Ms. Bloomfield, who looked wan and worried, confirmed reports that Mr. Romero had spanked their son the day before the shootings. She also said that her son was close to his father. The two played ball, and went hiking and hunting together regularly.

Article continued.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin

[grneyes]

I don't know. Thanks for the update MBS. A gag on proceedings makes it hard to work out what happened but I still think there had to be something to make the child snap. And I'll go back to an earlier point. Why would anyone think it necessary that an 8 year old should know how to load and fire a weapon?

It's actually pretty common in families where their are hunters. I've known how to shoot since I was young as did my parents and grandparents. In our house (when I was a kid) the guns were not locked up, but we all (we kids) never would have considered touching one of them unless we were going hunting or for target practice and then only when an adult was around. We knew they were dangerous and not toys.

[grneyes]

Hey Miss Kitty. Depends on where you live I guess. People who live in the bush do have weapons but I grew up in town and never had anything to do with them. People certainly do go roo shooting, pig shooting etc but it's not common where I live to have weapons in your home (well, not the law abiding people anyway). But you were obviously taught to have respect for what they can do and how to use them properly. I would assume that if you have children and weapons in a house then the weapons a) wouldn't be loaded and b) the ammunition would be stored separately where an 8 year old wouldn't be able to get his hands on it.

My kids were taught the same way I was but no, the guns were never kept loaded and were locked in a gun cabinet. The shells were kept locked in a different cabinet than the guns also. For the most part I was raised in the city too so I knew not to keep my guns out in the open not only because of the kids, but in case of break ins too.

This boys dad was a hunter so I'm assuming the boy was taught at least some gun safety so what made him go off and kill 2 people? I mean, 8 year olds don't normally make a habit of doing this.... I'm hoping this isn't a case of, "well dad made me mad so I killed him...."

[sharlock]

I think that if it was just a case of Dad spanked me and I am mad then only Dad would have been shot. It was something to do with both the male adults in the house and if the change in his attitude is really as recent as his Mum implies then they might not be able to get the child to discuss any abuse at all even if it did occur.

[sharlock]

I'm a bit confused about who was where. The father and the other victim were construction workers and lived away from his wife and daughters. Does anyone know why the boy was with his father? Why wasn't he in the family home with the step-mother?
I'm not really sure either? It would be interesting to know though.

[odette]

Mother of 8-year old boy accused in St. Johns murders questioned

A family member confirms to 12 news that the mother of an 8-year old boy accused of double murder was interviwed by St. John's police detectives Friday. That family member doesn't know why Erin Bloomfield was interviewed, but says Bloomfield was told that other family members would also be questioned in the case.

The 8-year old boy is accused of using a .22 caliber rifle to kill his father, 29-year old Vincent Romero, and Romero's roomate, 39-year old Timothy Romans. Detectives claim the murders were premeditated and that the boy confessed to the heinous crimes. But family members and friends say the boy and his father were inseperable and don't suspect abuse.

Former ATF agent turned private investigator Joe Gordon says it's not unusual for detectives to interview the family members of homicide suspects. In this case Gordon thinks police could be establishing a motive. By probing the mother they could get insight on his relationship with his father and his personality.

On monday an Apache County judge issues a gag order preventing lawyers and police officers from commenting on the case. The boy is scheduled for a round of psychological tests in two weeks. Those tests should determine whether he's competent to stand trial. The boy is due back in court Wednesday.

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/2008/11/14/20081114stjphnsfolo11142008-CR.html

[odette]

Rebekah Price - americanchronicle.com - November 13, 2008

Arizona's Dilemma--A Boy's Childhood Dies With His Father

He is eight years old and charged as an adult for the murder of his father, Vincent Romero, and his father´s friend, Timothy Romans. One body was found in a doorway, the other upstairs. Hmmm, no signs of trouble in school that we know of, but a little withdrawn recently says his mother. No blatant indication that this young boy was troubled; but two men are dead and he confessed. Now the close-knit town of St. Johns, Arizona, approximately four thousand strong, is reeling from the murders of these two men.

Police say that the eight year old boy confessed to the murder when he was being questioned. No family or lawyer was present at that time, nor had the young boy been informed of his rights; ironically, once those verbal bullets were fired from the oral gun, charges were put into motion.

Hmmm. A "confession" from an eight year old… Does it make sense? No. Not yet, anyway.

The young boy´s mother, Erin Bloomfield, states she had concerns about what was really going on in the Romero household over the last few months. Her son, she said, had become more withdrawn after confiding in her that his father and stepmother quarreled more often than not, as reported by the New York Times. Her concern prompted her to contact her son´s stepmother, Tiffany Romero, in order to evaluate the situation. After that call, she reported her son was basically told by his stepmother to keep his mouth shut about the goings on in the Romero home.

Is your brain working yet?

An eight year old child may be able to define murder, granted. But premeditated murder requires not just understanding the difference between right and wrong, it requires culpability--that is, that this child is able to understand the act, commit the act and comprehend the consequences of his actions. It is difficult to envision a happy eight year old picking up a gun and not only shooting one man, but actively searching out another--on a different floor of the residence remember--and picking him off, too. Does it make sense that he would have the capability to hold himself together emotionally after shooting one dead to hunt the other down? And that is only one question.

What was going on in that house? What about others, like where was Tiffany Romero in all of this? What kind of things were she and Vincent Romero allegedly frequently quarreling about? How close was she to the man who rented a room from them? What was causing this eight year old confessed shooter to become increasingly distant from his biological mother? Could Tiffany have been having an affair? And what affect did Tiffany have on this young boy? Was she the only daily female presence in his life? Could he have fired the gun at her request?

• Article Continued

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/81429

[deputydi]

I'm a bit confused about who was where. The father and the other victim were construction workers and lived away from his wife and daughters. Does anyone know why the boy was with his father? Why wasn't he in the family home with the step-mother?
It is my understanding that this was the Romero family home and the step-mother was out. The other man who was killed worked on the same construction job as Mr Romero and lived in another town. He rented a room at the Romero's home during the week and went home on weekends.

There's got to be more to this story than is being reported right now. I wonder if the recent marriage of his dad had something to do with what happened. It's possible the child resented her presence in his life and dad was taking his new bride's side in some dispute.

[deputydi]

Az authorities wouldn't really send an 8 year old to trial for double murder would they? I'd still like to know why he was with the father instead of with the stepmother and his sisters.
I seriously doubt they will try him as an adult. Some reports say he is being charged as a juvenile, and others say he is charged as an adult. I can't believe they could possibly try an 8 yr old boy as an adult offender.

[sharlock]

Az authorities wouldn't really send an 8 year old to trial for double murder would they? I'd still like to know why he was with the father instead of with the stepmother and his sisters.
It seems to me that it happens all too often in America.


Children Behind Bars
by Christopher Kellerman
It is said that a civilized society can be judged by how it treats its children. While we incarcerate and execute more of our young, we expand our prison system, while decreasing spending on education and prevention programs.

Out of the few countries whose laws provide for execution for crimes that people commit as children, the United States has carried out more of these executions than any of the others. In the past ten years, juvenile cases that have been referred to adult courts have increased more than 70%. (White)

"Children in adult institutions are five times as likely to be sexually assaulted, twice as likely to be beaten by staff, and 50% more likely to be attacked by a weapon than children in a juvenile facility." (Brooks)

The enormity of the problem is obvious. What is not so clear is the cause. Possible reasons for the increase we see in juvenile crime, according so some, may include the increased availability of firearms, more families trying to survive at poverty level incomes, and children with a history of sexual abuse. One major factor that has not received the coverage it is due is this: A great number of children presently in the criminal justice system have suffered neurological damage due to prenatal exposure to alcohol. (Zakreski) According to studies of children who suffer from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) and Fetal Alcohol Effects (FAE), there is a 60% risk of their being charged or convicted of a crime. (Streissguth)

(Louv) Prevention is the answer, but prevention programs cannot come about without the support of funding. Every $1,000 spent on crime prevention programs for youth saves $3,000 dollars that would be wasted on ineffective punishment. We owe it to our children. We owe it to our community. We owe it to our future.
http://www.come-over.to/fasstar/juvcrime1.htm

[sharlock]

I found very relevant report by the CFYCG - "Jailing Juveniles:
The Dangers of Incarcerating Youth in Adult Jails in America
A Campaign for Youth Justice Report: November 2007"

It is a really compelling read and I actually cried in one part when I read a letter written by a youth to his judge 2 and a half mths before he committed suicide.
It points out that a high proportion of children in adult jails have been severely affected due to parents drinking while pregnant and breastfeeding. It admits that over 2/3 of youth are held in adult prisons prior to their trial. While incarcerated they are at high risk for suicide and they also account for 11 to 23% of the assaults in prison even though they account for only 1% of the population. They are clearly at risk of sexual abuse and rape and to avoid this most will try to do something to get into trouble which then results in an automatic 30days in isolation which keeps them locked up for 23hrs a day with nothing to do exascerbating mental conditions, still it is preferable to the constant fear they face in general pop. This is just wrong on so many levels!!!:flamemad:
I really hope you will all read this. There are also some excellent documentaries out there showing parents visiting their young children in jail and some of them aren't even allowed physical contact.
I would die if I could not hug my son!:rose:

[odette]

Boy, 8, accused of killing two

ST. JOHNS - Rocked by a double murder in their small close-knit community last Wednesday afternoon, the residents of St. Johns have only one question on their minds. Why would an eight-year-old boy allegedly kill two men, one of whom was his father?

Excerpt: In response to questions from Carlyon, Neckel said she and Apache County Sheriff's Cmdr. Matrese Avila interviewed the youngster the following morning. She said the boy initially told them he got off the school bus and walked around the neighborhood before going home. As he approached the home, he told the officers he saw a body on the front porch and then went inside and called for his dad before seeing his dad's body lying on the stairs. "He said he stayed there for 30 minutes and then he left the residence and went to a neighbor's house where there is another young man. He spoke to him and told him his father was dead and his father's friend was dead," said Neckel.

She said the boy's story changed with every question the officers asked. She said they discussed gun shot residue in words the youngster could understand, and they asked him if he would have any on his clothing - the boy acknowledged that he may have some on his clothing. "He said when he entered the house there was a lot of smoke in the house. He also told us that he did pick up the gun, and that the smoke would have caused (residue) to be on his clothing. We asked if he would have a little or a lot, he said a lot." She said he then admitted that he may have fired the gun.

"Did you ask him if he might have been mad at his dad," asked Carlyon. Neckel said the boy admitted he was mad at his dad. "He said that the evening before, he didn't bring some papers home from school and his dad was very angry and had (the boy's) stepmother spank him five swats."

Defense attorney Ben Brewer further questioned the officer about the crime scene - much of his questioning concerned what individuals were at the crime scene, what were they doing there, and how the crime scene evidence was collected. Neckel named the officers who she was aware entered the home. She told Brewer that all of the evidence from the crime scene was collected by Arizona Department of Public Safety crime lab technicians.

Neckel said neither she nor Avila, a certified forensic interviewer, read the boy his Miranda rights. "We felt he was a victim. I would say that in 90 percent of that interview I felt he was a victim." She said it was just in the last few minutes of their conversation with the boy that she and Avila began to believe the boy was not a victim, but something different.

Carlyon next called Sgt. Rodriquez to the stand. He told the court he observed the body on the front porch and believed the person (Romans) was dead. He said he entered the home, quickly searched it for any additional subjects and found a second dead body (Romero) laying face down on the stairs. Carlyon handed the witness several crime scene photographs from which he asked a series of questions concerning the exact location of the bodies, shell casings and other evidence the officer noticed at the scene. Rodriquez said from the shell casings he found near the bodies, he believed the murder weapon was a 22-caliber weapon. Police later located a 22-caliber rifle a couple feet inside the front door - he described the rifle as a single-shot bolt-action rifle. In talking to the boy's grandmother, he said he learned she had originally purchased the gun for her son, and he in turn gave it to his son. "She said (her grandson) knew how to use it." Rodriquez said he learned the Romero family members were hunters and had many guns in the home, mostly stored in the master bedroom.

As to who may have called 911, Rodriquez said he understood the 8-year-old went to his friend's home nearby and told the friend his dad and his dad's friend were dead. Rodriquez believes the friend told the story to a teenage sibling who in turn called their father at work. The father returned home within minutes, saw what appeared to be a body on the front porch of the Romero home and called 911.

Rodriquez admitted it was difficult to talk about some of the things he saw that afternoon at the Romero home.

The final officer to take the stand was Apache County Sheriff's Sgt. Web Hogle. He said his involvement occurred the following day when he relieved another deputy who had retained the chain of custody of the bodies throughout the night at a nearby funeral home. He testified that although the bodies were still fully clothed, he was able to observe what appeared to be 22-caliber pin-point size holes in several locations on their clothing.

Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it.

After 4-1/2 hours of testimony, Rocca said he found probable cause that the boy was involved in the crimes he is charged with and ordered that he be detained in the Apache County juvenile detention center for the time being. He ordered a psychiatric evaluation be initiated and requested that child protective services begin an investigation with an eye to future dependency hearings.

• Article Continued

• Google Cache
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wmicentral.com%2Fs ite%2Fnews.cfm%3Fnewsid%3D20190155%26BRD%3D2264%26 PAG%3D461%26dept_id%3D505965%26rfi%3D6

• Original Link
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[sharlock]

She said the boy's story changed with every question the officers asked. She said they discussed gun shot residue in words the youngster could understand, and they asked him if he would have any on his clothing - the boy acknowledged that he may have some on his clothing. "He said when he entered the house there was a lot of smoke in the house. He also told us that he did pick up the gun, and that the smoke would have caused (residue) to be on his clothing. We asked if he would have a little or a lot, he said a lot." She said he then admitted that he may have fired the gun.

Fired the gun when? A day before, 2 days before? A month ago? I'd like to know how you discuss gun residue with an 8 year old in words he understands, of course bearing in mind that he wouldn't have the faintest idea a) he should have an adult with him while being questioned and b) every word you say can be taken down and used against you - oh, that's Miranda rights isn't it? They weren't explained to him, were they.

Exactly! I noticed she made a point of saying they considered him a victim for 90% of the interview in an effort to try and minimalise the fact that he hadn't been read his rights or offered counsel, had no parent or adult working in his best interest present, I have been told that in USA you don't have to invoke Miranda rights unless the person is suspected of wrongdoing which would explain her rush to say he wasn't suspected.
I do believe this child might have committed this crime and that is tragic but I worry that if some horrible abuse isn't found (or admitted) people will turn on this child writing him off as evil and forgetting the fact that he is a very, young boy who could not possibly understand the ramifications of his actions and would have a good chance at rehailitation if he was given the correct care. JMHO

[sharlock]

"He said that the evening before, he didn't bring some papers home from school and his dad was very angry and had (the boy's) stepmother spank him five swats."
Why wouldn't he discipline his own child? I don't understand why he would get the Stepmum to mete out the spanking, seems mighty strange to me!

[odette]

First part of Deputy interview with 8 year-old murder suspect

• RAW: First part of child's interview

• VIDEO: Captions from boy's interview

• VIDEO: What the tape says

• PHOTOS: Double-murder scene

• Murdered man's funeral

• Details on the interview

http://www.azfamily.com/

[odette]

Boy, 8, charged with murder says he came home, found men dead

(CNN) -- An 8-year-old Arizona boy suspected in the deaths of his father and another man can be heard in a videotape of his police interview telling officers that he shot both men after he came home from school.

Authorities released the tape Tuesday.

The boy, sitting cross-legged in an overstuffed armchair, initially denied any involvement in the shootings but later said he shot his already wounded father "because he was suffering."

• continued
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/arizona.boy.murder/?iref=hpmostpop

[odette]

Ariz. boy: Someone shot dad, renter before I did

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. - An 8-year-old boy accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man said in a police interview released Tuesday that he did not fire the first shots at the men but later shot them so they wouldn't suffer. The boy gives conflicting accounts of the shootings during an hourlong video of his interview with authorities in St. Johns, but the video ends with him admitting to pulling the trigger. He then buries his head in his jacket

• continued
http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1108/571095.html

[odette]

Video: Boy calmly talks about day of dad's death

• continued
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2008/nov/18/video-boy-calmly-talks-about-day-dads-death/?partner=RSS

[odette]

St. Johns residents: Young murder suspect's tape is confusing

Many people in St. Johns don't know what to make of a video tape in which an 8-year-old boy talks about the shooting deaths of his dad and another man in his home in the small eastern Arizona town.

• St. John's Police Interview with suspect: Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 -- (@ Link Below)

The tape was made the day after 29-year-old Vincent Romero and 39-year-old Timothy Romans were found shot to death in Romero's home. Romans rented a room there. In the tape, the boy said he fired at least two shots each at the men.

A woman who did not want her name used said the tape did little to shed light on what happened.

"To me, it's almost like he's making up a story. Either somebody put him up to it or he can't comprehend in his head whether he did it or not."

She said the suspect is known as a very smart kid.

• continued
http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=993592

[odette]

ON THE RECORD W/ GRETA

Accused 8-Year-Old Murderer's Police Interview Raises Legal Questions

• continued
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,454530,00.html

[odette]

Experts: Interrogation of boy, 8, 'out of bounds'

. . . . . http://i38.tinypic.com/16ke0yr.jpg

(CNN) -- The third-grader's legs dangle from an overstuffed leather chair as he answers the questions of two female police officers. His manner and voice are casual, even helpful, but his words are shocking.

And so, legal analysts say, were the methods police used to obtain them.

By the time the boy was finished talking, say police in St. Johns, Arizona, he'd confessed to a premeditated double murder.

• Continued
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/19/boy.confession.tactics/

[One2Snoop]

:eek: UNREAL!

I don't see how they got out of this conversation that he was the one who shot them? :confused:

ITA Joseph!

[One2Snoop]

I think you and I and a whole load of other people are wondering exactly the same thing, 12S. Talk about leading questions! Talk about jumping to conclusions!
You would think that if LE had some fire proof evidence that the child committed the murders then they'd make it public. I mean, they made this video public, which IMO was not the smartest of moves.

Why has the case only now been moved to Juvenile jurisdiction? He's 8 years old! Who do LE think they're dealing with? Billy the Kid?

IMO this situation is dealing with small town (po dunk ) meaning they have squat and are inexperienced with this sort of situation - I'm thinking this is one time LE should've kept their mouths shut until they had all their ducks in a row - hindsights 20/20 on their end IMO.

After listening to the video tapes - I have no doubt this 8 year old kid was mislead/confused and I'd like to say without certainity he didn't commit this crime. I think I may need to listen awhile longer - but gut tells me no way he did this. I read elsewhere the 8 yr old witnessed a car speeding away as he came home from school - any updates on that situation? :confused::shrug:

[odette]

IMO this situation is dealing with small town (po dunk ) meaning they have squat and are inexperienced with this sort of situation - I'm thinking this is one time LE should've kept their mouths shut until they had all their ducks in a row - hindsights 20/20 on their end IMO.

After listening to the video tapes - I have no doubt this 8 year old kid was mislead/confused and I'd like to say without certainity he didn't commit this crime. I think I may need to listen awhile longer - but gut tells me no way he did this. I read elsewhere the 8 yr old witnessed a car speeding away as he came home from school - any updates on that situation? :confused::shrug:

Can't find much at all about the car which the boy allegedly saw, only that it was a "white sedan", and that he shot "at a car he said was speeding away from the house."


8-year-old admits double shooting in police video

Excerpt: During the interview, the boy's accounts of the shootings change from him never having touched a gun, to throwing one he found in the home in a closet, to shooting at a car he said was speeding away from the house.

http://broadstripe.net/news/read.php?ps=1011&rip_id=%3CD94HQ2TG1%40news.ap.org%3E&_LT=HOME_LARSDCCL2_UNEWS

Hearing slated for boy charged with fatally shooting dad

Excerpt: When he finally returned, the boy said, he saw a white sedan race down the street at high speed. Then he looked at the house: "I saw the door (was) open and I saw Tim (Romans) right there. And I ran and I said, 'Dad! Dad!' And I went upstairs and I saw him. And there was blood all over his face. And I think I touched him. I just kind of checked to see if he was a little bit alive."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-11-19-boy-shooting_N.htm

[odette]

Judge Makes Key Rulings In Slayings

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in eastern Arizona will be allowed to spend Thanksgiving with his biological mother.

Judge Michael Roca on Wednesday agreed to allow the boy to leave juvenile detention from noon on Nov. 26 until noon on Nov. 28. The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

• Continued
http://www.kpho.com/news/18017746/detail.html

[odette]

8-year-old accused of murder can go home for holidays

The 8-year old St. Johns boy accused of killing his father and another man will be allowed to go home to his mother's for Thanksgiving.

Judge Michael Roca has agreed to let the boy leave juvenile detention from noon on Nov. 26 until noon on Nov. 28.

The judge's decision came over the objection of prosecutors.

the judge put some stipulations on the visit. There can be no guns or knives in the home during the visit.

If the child doesn't return to detention on time, arrest warrants will be issued for both the boy and his mother.

• Article Continued
http://www.kold.com/Global/story.asp?S=9375237&nav=menu86_13_9

[odette]

Young murder suspect can spend holiday with mother

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. - An 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in eastern Arizona will be allowed to spend Thanksgiving with his mother, a move that drew criticism from the family of the second victim. The boy and his mother, Eryn Thomas, sat beside each other in court Wednesday in St. Johns, often leaning over and whispering into one another's ear. The boy, wearing a navy blue shirt and pants, was free from the cuffs he wore in a previous hearing.

• Article Continued
http://www.abc3340.com/news/stories/1108/571520.html

[odette]

8-Year-Old's Confession Draws Fire

Taped Interrogation Of Child Accused Of Killing Dad "Absurd," Says CBS News Legal Analyst

(CBS/AP) The 8-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in Eastern Arizona was subjected to an "absurd" police interrogation, a legal analyst told CBS' The Early Show Thursday.

"What we know is that children under 12 are especially susceptible to questioning by an adult," legal analyst Lisa Bloom said.

Excerpt: St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick has said he would push for the boy to be tried as an adult, though some analysts think even a juvenile court trial would be too much.

"Children this age believe in the tooth fairy, they believe in magic … it's absurd," said Bloom. "This child should not be in juvenile court or adult court, in my opinion. He should be a ward of the family court and get some social service attention."

Prosecutors have 15 days to decide if that's the route they want to take.

• Article Continued
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/20/national/main4619936.shtml

[Serial Killer X]

Well, finally the child will get to spend some time with his mother. But no knives, weapons whatever? And he's been in handcuffs? I repeat, does LE think they're dealing with Billy the Kid here?

How could you possibly try an 8 year old as an adult? Can someone explain that to me? Could someone explain that to the child?

I don't know Mr Bell but obviously they think it's the right decision i disagree strongly, i doubt the child would be able to grasp the concept of life imprisonment let alone jail. Still i hope they don't go for charging him as a adult.

[sharlock]

Well, you and I SKX both have probs with the concept of an 8 year old being charged, as an adult, with double murder.
But to be truthful if it was going to take place it would be in America so apparently there are a lot of people in the land of truth and justice that don't agree and beleive that if a chld kills it is the same as an adult killing.

I hated the interview with those two trying to be so motherly to a scared child all to get him to say something incriminating. To me it is obvious they thought he was lying and a suspect before the interview even starts and that continues the whole way through so if this is allowed into court I will be shocked.
The truth is though that watching it I first thought oh they are twisting it all up in his head and now he is just agreeing with anything they put to him but... and I hate to say this but I thought there were some telling moments that lead me to suspect this boy did kill them both.
When he talks about killing the boarder he mentions he is scared that someone is going to come after him. He talks about putting his dad out of his misery and the way he said it it made me thinnk that this is something that has been said to him before and a scenario of a Dad saying stop feeling sorry for your self or I'll get the gun and put you out of your misery sprung to mind. The fact he says that he often will aviod coming home on the 2 days his Stepmum doesn't finish until 5 makes me think that he could have had good reason for not wanting to be alone there with those men? I know this is speculation and nothing would make me feel better than to find out I am wrong but if I am not I worry that people will turn on this child and allow him to be tried as an adult.

[sharlock]

Who says he killed anyone? LE is seriously wrong on this one. IMO. You can make an 8 year old child say anything. Believe me.
Sharlock; I know this is speculation and nothing would make me feel better than to find out I am wrong but if I am not I worry that people will turn on this child and allow him to be tried as an adult.
I know I couldn't get my 6 yr old to say this but I think you are right too, this kid is under a lot of stress and I noticed that they have only released about 35mins of an interview that went on for over an hour so I hope you are right, I was just sharing my gut reaction to the tapes.

[sharlock]

Hey Shaz that's cool. I probably prefer not to believe than an 8 year old could do this but if he did well then. I'm more stirred up about how it's been handled and how the child has had his rights trampled on.

I just read that the prosecutor is asking for the charge of murdering the father to be dropped but he won't say why. That's at least one step in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. However, I then read that the charge could be refiled at a later date. I must admit that I don't understand that.

Wow, I'm a bit bamboozled by that too but I think I smell a defense coming on. I want to no more. ITA that it is the handling of this investigation that is of concern here. This is the age where kids will come home upset because the heard a Yr 7 in the toilets saying Santa Claus wasn't real! How the American justice system can even consider trying this boy as an adult is a question I find most disturbing. The fact that it even could be thought about makes me feel sick. Help is what a child at this age needs no matter what the crime.
I have read comments elsewhere where people have said if he is old enough to kill then he is old enough to be tried as an adult; my response would be if this is the way your society truly feels then these children should have the same rights as adults, drive cars drink alcohol whatever, the reason we don't do that is because they haven't finished cognitively or physically developing and still need to be told not to stick sharp things into power sockets, or light a firework and hold onto it for God's sake. They don't understand consequences yet it is that simple.

[sharlock]

PHOENIX — It is very unlikely that the videotaped confession of an 8-year-old Arizona (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/national/usstatesterritoriesandpossessions/arizona/index.html?inline=nyt-geo) boy who is charged with killing his father and another man will be admissible in court, legal and child-psychology experts say.


Mother Baffled in Arizona Murders (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/us/13child.html?ref=us) (November 13, 2008)
ST. JOHNS, Ariz. — A week after the police charged an 8-year-old boy in the premeditated shooting deaths of his father and another man, the boy’s mother, teachers and others who know him say they are no closer to understanding the roots of such a heinous crime.
“I don’t believe he did this,” said the mother, Erin Bloomfield, 26, who has shared custody of her son with his father, Vincent Romero, 29, since the couple divorced six years ago. She said she talked to the boy every week and visited an average of once a month, driving the 20 hours to St. Johns from her home in Mississippi.
Ms. Bloomfield had just returned from her latest visit when she got a call about the shooting and immediately returned to St. Johns, a windy hamlet of horse ranches, low-slung houses and double-wide trailers about 170 miles east-northeast of Phoenix. The largest buildings are a few churches and schools along the single main road, which has no stoplights.
“People like their independence and freedom here,” said Wendy Guffey, 60, a substance abuse counselor at a local health clinic. “It’s sort of the redneck ethic. A lot of people haul their own water and live off generators and candles out here. Back to the land.”
Many of her clients struggle with unemployment, drugs and tedium. “A lot of people around here say there’s nothing to do,” Ms. Guffey said.
Ms. Bloomfield described her son as a “normal boy” who played video games nonstop and doted on his new dog, a boxer. But in recent months, she said, he “seemed to be changing.”
“There was a distance with me after a while,” she said.
Whenever she spoke with her son, Ms. Bloomfield said, “I had to go through Tiffany,” a reference to his stepmother, Tiffany Romero. “Tiffany would always sit there while he talked to me on the phone, and after a while, he became more and more distant.”
She worried, she said, that the boy might be being abused although she had no proof.
Before Judge Michael P. Roca of Apache County Superior Court blocked anyone connected to the case from talking to the news media, Police Chief Roy Melnick of St. Johns said there was no evidence that the boy had been abused at home or in school.
A person answering the door at the Romero home on Tuesday said Tiffany Romero would not discuss the case because of Judge Roca’s order.
Ms. Bloomfield said that after her son told her that his father and stepmother quarreled often, “I called Tiffany about that, and I think I got my son into trouble.”
“The next time I talked to him about it,” she added, “he said that Tiffany told him that ‘what happens in this house stays in this house.’ ”
Ms. Bloomfield also said that her son was close to his father, and that the two regularly played softball and basketball, and went hiking and hunting together, sometimes joined by the other man who was killed, Timothy Romans, 39. Mr. Romans worked in construction with Mr. Romero and rented a room in the family house.
Ms. Bloomfield confirmed that after first seeking permission from their parish priest, her ex-husband recently bought their son a .22 rifle for hunting, a common pastime of young boys and their fathers in this town of about 4,000 people.
The boy “took his religious faith very seriously,” said Sister Angelina Chavez, who has known him since he was a baby and taught his religious class every Monday at St. Johns Catholic Church. It is the church where the Romeros were married in September, and where hundreds of townspeople turned out for Mr. Romero’s funeral on Monday. “I just don’t know what happened to him spiritually, emotionally,” she said.
“This is going to take a while to get over,” Sister Angelina said. “Parishioners have come to me asking why it happened. I just don’t know.”
Ms. Bloomfield expressed disgust at rumors sweeping the town, among them that her son killed his father because he had not been allowed to go trick-or-treating on Halloween. “This town is too small,” she said. “Everybody thinks they know what happened. They’re saying all kinds of things about my son. They have smashed him down to nothing.”

cont...

[sharlock]

Chief Melnick has said only that the boy unexpectedly confessed to the killings during the second of two interviews on Nov. 5. Neither a lawyer nor a family member was present either time, the chief said, because the boy was being questioned as a witness, not a suspect.
Prosecutors charged the boy as an adult, and Ms. Bloomfield said she was terrified they would also attempt to try him as one. The boy is scheduled to undergo three psychological examinations in the coming weeks to determine whether that is possible.
A Phoenix defense lawyer, Karyn Klausner, who is a former municipal judge, said that for the boy to be tried as an adult, the tests must show that he is competent to understand the charges against him, has a basic understanding of the court process and is able to assist in his defense. In addition, prosecutors must prove that he cannot be rehabilitated by the time he turns 18 and leaves the juvenile justice system.
Ms. Klausner said she was appalled that the authorities were considering such an option. “There’s no way on God’s green earth that an 8-year-old should be subject to the adult system,” she said.
Prosecutors also have what Ms. Klausner called the unlikely option of deciding that the boy is incompetent to stand trial, detaining him in a psychiatric facility until he is deemed competent, and then trying him as an adult.
In a separate case, a county judge in Bisbee, Ariz., on Monday denied a motion to try as an adult a 12-year-old boy accused of killing his mother. In that case, court mental health evaluators determined that the boy could be rehabilitated by the time he turned 18.
The sight of her young son being led into court in shackles on Monday was especially upsetting, Ms. Bloomfield said. His hands were bound to a security belt that had to be looped around his waist three times because of his small frame. The judge ordered the restraints removed.
“I blew some kisses at him and told him to put some in his pocket for later,” the mother said. “Later he told me he needed more kisses to put in his pocket.”
The next hearing, set for next Wednesday, is to focus on requests by defense lawyers for DNA, blood samples, ballistics and other forensics evidence from the crime scene.
Two of the boy’s friends, Lucas Graf, 12, and Jude Chavez, 11, said they, too, were baffled as to how someone with whom they wrestled and swam in the scorching summer just past could have committed such a brutal act.
“He’s a nice kid,” Lucas said. “He’s normal.”

[One2Snoop]

Lawyers Drop One Murder Charge Against Boy
Other Murder Charge Remains; Move Could Signal Cracks In Prosecution's Case

ST. JOHNS, Ariz., Nov. 22, 2008

CBS/AP) The Apache County Attorney is seeking to dismiss one of two murder charges against an 8-year-old boy who is accused in the shooting deaths of his father and another man.

The motion filed late Friday seeks the dismissal of the first-degree murder charge stemming from the death of the boy's father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero. The boy is also charged with first-degree murder in the death of 39-year-old Tim Romans, Romero's roommate.

The motion explicitly allows the refiling of the charge if it is granted.

The prosecutor's office wouldn't explain its actions. The boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, declined to comment Friday, citing a gag order in the case.

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns allege that the boy killed both men with a .22-caliber rifle in their home on Nov. 5.

A well-known Arizona defense lawyer not involved in the case said there could be many reasons why a charge would be dismissed.

"There's some reason legally or factually that they don't want to proceed with that murder at this time - and that normally means there's something they need to investigate further - the case is not ready to proceed," Tucson attorney Mike Piccarreta said.

Romero and Romans were found dead Nov. 5.

Police say the boy confessed to the killings. But he gave conflicting accounts of the shootings in an hourlong video of his interview with authorities in St. Johns.

A 12-minute segment of the video was posted Nov. 17 on Phoenix television station KTVK's Web site. The station said it got the video from the prosecutor's office in Apache County, where the shootings occurred.

But a legal analyst on CBS' The Early Show Thursday called the police interrogation "absurd."

"What we know is that children under 12 are especially susceptible to questioning by an adult," legal analyst Lisa Bloom said.

"I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think," the boy said toward the end of the hour-long interrogation, though Bloom notes that the admission comes only after repeated officer questioning.

"Children tell authority figures what they think the authority figure wants to hear," said Bloom. "This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns."

A defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, has said police overreached in their questioning of the boy, who was not represented by a family member or lawyer during the interview.

This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns.
Lisa Bloom, legal analyst

On Wednesday, a judge ruled that the boy will be allowed to spend the Thanksgiving holiday next week with his mother, a move that drew criticism from the family of the second victim.

St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick has said he would push for the boy to be tried as an adult, though some analysts think even a juvenile court trial would be too much.

"Children this age believe in the tooth fairy, they believe in magic … it's absurd," said Bloom. "This child should not be in juvenile court or adult court, in my opinion. He should be a ward of the family court and get some social service attention."

Authorities and the defense attorneys have been unable to answer questions about the case since the court issued a gag order.

A status conference in the case has been scheduled for Dec. 8.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/22/national/main4627742.shtml

[sharlock]

A defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, has said police overreached in their questioning of the boy, who was not represented by a family member or lawyer during the interview.
Quote:
This child was not Mirandized; there was no attorney for him in that room; there was no parent or legal guardian. He was simply answering questions by two police officers in uniforms with guns.
Lisa Bloom, legal analyst

Thanks 12. That's the article I read (and thanks to grneyes who supplied it to me earlier). How does the prosecution, if this should go to trial and I'm hoping it won't, hope to admit the interview into evidence? I understand this is a reasonably small community and I think the police chief in charge is scrambling like mad for some form of damage control (hence the news gags)

But didn't someone in that police dept think that something was a little bit bizarre to put it mildly with interviewing the boy with no parents, no legal counsel, no Miranda rights (if he could understand them) and then charging him with double murder. You would have thought alarm bells would be screaming!
From what I can gather it seems they simply have had no experience dealing with these types of case; it is absolutely no excuse though as you do not have to deal with children suspected of murder in order to understand that they have rights too like any other citizen.

[William Anthony]

From what I can gather it seems they simply have had no experience dealing with these types of case; it is absolutely no excuse though as you do not have to deal with children suspected of murder in order to understand that they have rights too like any other citizen.

Very well put and I saw the mother on television giving an interview, in which they played a snippet of the interrogation and I did not hear a confession in that part. I heard him say he may have shot someone, after it was suggested that he tell them he did.

[One2Snoop]

Police Report: Boy Kept Tally Of Spankings

POSTED: 1:20 pm MST November 26, 2008
UPDATED: 7:51 pm MST November 26, 2008


ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report.

In an affidavit for a search warrant, Sgt. Lucas Rodriguez writes that the boy "is believed to have made ledgers and or communicated in the form of writings about his intentions." He said the boy tallied the spankings on a piece of paper.

Police have said the boy planned and methodically carried out the killings of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, who rented a room in the family's two-story home in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

Documents show that Romero was shot four times, and Romans was shot six times.

In another police report released Wednesday, the boy's grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, the boy was.

Other documents were released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office. In one of them, St. Johns police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings.

She said she "knew this would happen" and said she had a feeling the boy committed the crimes.

"They were too hard on him," the police report quoted her as saying. "He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it."

She also said "if any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this it's (the boy)."

The boy was released from juvenile detention on Wednesday to spend Thanksgiving with his mother.

Judge Michael Roca granted a 48-hour furlough to the boy last week during a hearing in Apache County. The boy is to return to custody by noon on Friday.

If he doesn't, Roca says an arrest warrant will be issued for the boy and his mother, Eryn Bloomfield.

An attorney for the boy, Benjamin Brewer, says he's hopeful the boy will have a good time while he's out.

Roca has said the boy must stay within a certain area in Apache County and no knives, video games or cable television can be in the home where he's staying.

A status conference in the case is scheduled Dec. 8.

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

[sharlock]

Well first of all I'm glad to hear the child has an attorney and from his statements so far, Brewer appears to be good. Thanks for posting this, 12. Haven't heard anything for a while. I thought a gag order was still being applied? Then how come these highly selective snippets of info have been made available? I wonder...

I can just imagine an 8 year old keeping a ledger? H'm. So, he writes down how many times his father spanks him. This automatically makes him a double murderer? This kid is being tried before he even gets near a courtroom and I hope no trial ever occurs.

I also note step mother is an AKA. Not quite the loving, nuclear family that was 1st portrayed. Lots more to come on this one. I just hope the child is with people who really are interested in his welfare. And if grandmother really made that remark, then not with her.

What does AKA stand for?

[Nawny]

According to some reports, the kid's mother was the issue in his anger toward the father. The mother figure is the most important icon in the universe since Christ and before. That little boy should not have been forced to live with his father IMO. TOo young to needy and too unable to cope without maternal nurturing. Guns don't belong within reach of 8 year old children. It was a no brainer. Much less teaching a child how to shoot a gun.
What's the question?

All my own opinion.

[sharlock]

According to some reports, the kid's mother was the issue in his anger toward the father. The mother figure is the most important icon in the universe since Christ and before. That little boy should not have been forced to live with his father IMO. TOo young to needy and too unable to cope without maternal nurturing. Guns don't belong within reach of 8 year old children. It was a no brainer. Much less teaching a child how to shoot a gun.
What's the question?

All my own opinion.

I agree with you but I think it's impossible for us to know why he stayed with his Dad. Still a boy that age does need love and affection and I do see that a lot of Fathers make the mistake of trying to toughen their sons up around this age. Teaching him to use guns was totally crazy but not locking them away where he couldn't reach them was just downright irresponsible. I have to stop myself though because it feels a bit icky saying this about a man who was murdered while we are still unsure of the facts.

[Twinners]

Prosecutors offer plea deal to child suspect
8-year-old boy charged with killing dad, man; child had tallied spankings

PHOENIX - Prosecutors offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their Arizona home.

Complete details of the offer were not spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court's Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Criss Candelaria wrote that he had "tendered a plea offer to the juvenile's attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations."

Police have said the boy planned and methodically carried out the killings of his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, who rented a room in the family's two-story home in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

In Saturday's development, Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued in a Nov. 25 filing that prosecutors wanted the charge dismissed so they could refile it when the boy was older and press the case in adult court.

'Difficult to assess'
Brewer said Saturday the deal would resolve the case without it being transferred to adult court, although he declined to provide additional details. Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

"It is going to be difficult to assess what (the boy) can or cannot enter into," Brewer said on Saturday. "But certainly we're looking at it."

In Arizona, those convicted as juveniles can only be held until they turn 18. The law allows prosecutions of juveniles age 8 and above as adults.

The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer's opposition filing that he wasn't trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system just isn't equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns found Romero and Romans shot to death after the boy ran to a neighbor's house on the afternoon of Nov. 5. He was questioned after Romans' wife raised suspicions about him the next day, and in a videotape released by prosecutors he admits pulling the trigger. Romans worked with Romero and rented a room in his home.

Each man was shot several times with a single-shot, bolt-action .22-caliber rifle.

His grandmother told police that if any 8-year-old was capable of the crimes, it was him. Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

The boy remained in a county juvenile facility, although he was allowed a 48-hour furlough to spend Thursday's Thanksgiving holiday with his mother.

The next court hearing is set for Dec. 8.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27971173

[sharlock]

It's astounding that 8yr olds ca be tried ssd an adul there. I agree with BB and think this case should be dropped and the little boy should be helped in everyway possible. I know that might be hard for the family of the murdered men to accept but it truly is the most humane, reasonable and honorable course of action. I believe a society can be judged on the way they treat their children and this just doesn't look good IMO.

[Its just me]

This is such a sad story. I raised two sons and have two grandsons with one being 7 years old. I can't imagine him coming close to being capable of planning a murder and he is a smart little guy. We may never know the full truth unless a defense attorney digs it out and until proven wrong I say there is more to this story than a 8 year old shooting 2 men. I think it's possible what the child told in the beginning was basically the truth and was lead into changing his story.
I read where the stepmom was the one to spank him...and I cried when I read the dad and stepmom was only married in Sept. A new stepmom of 2 months should not be spanking a stepchild under any circumstance. This little guy breaks my heart where it's proved he pulled the trigger or not.
----------------------------------
At St. John the Baptist, Romero sang in the choir and his wife had also signed up. The couple spent two years preparing for marriage, and when they tied the knot in September the "church was packed," Sauter said.

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/1108/568397.html

[sharlock]

Absolutely IJM and JB.
BTW sorry about my last post it gives new meaning to illiterate lol!

[sharlock]

It's OK. I can read between the lines. Keep on posting.:)
LOL just try and stop me, I am supposed to be doing assignments and I think to myself I will quickly check CL and without fail end up on here till 3am. I am going to impose a hiatus on myself soon until I have finished my assignments because I have no self control.:D

[aldred]

Self Defence. Dismiss the charges. Charge the community instead for failing to care for its weakest and most vulnerable.

[sharlock]

8-Year-Old Accused of Killing Father Offered Plea Deal
Saturday , November 29, 2008




ST. JOHNS, Ariz. —

Prosecutors offered a plea deal to an 8-year-old boy charged with murder in the shooting deaths of his father and another man in their St. Johns home, court records show.

Complete details of the offer weren’t spelled out in a court filing posted Saturday on the Apache County Superior Court’s Web site.

But Apache County Attorney Chriss Candelaria wrote that he has “tendered a plea offer to the juvenile’s attorneys that would resolve all the charges in the juvenile court contingent on the results of the mental health evaluations.”

Candelaria was responding to a defense motion seeking to block him from dropping one of two first-degree murder charges the boy is facing for the shooting deaths of his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, earlier this month.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued in a Nov. 25 filing that prosecutors wanted the charge dismissed so they could refile it when the boy was older and press the case in adult court.

Brewer said Saturday that the deal would resolve the case without it being transferred to adult court, but he declined to provide additional details. Although he is considering the offer, Brewer said he is unsure of his client’s ability to understand the proceedings. At least two mental health evaluations are yet to be completed.

The prosecutor explained in his response to Brewer’s opposition filing that he wasn’t trying to obtain an unfair advantage, but he pressed for the dismissal because the judicial system isn’t equipped to deal with an 8-year-old charged with murder.
“It is done to ensure that the juvenile and the two murder victims in this case do not fall through the cracks in the system that might occur if both charges remain in the pending delinquency petition,” Candelaria wrote.

Candelaria explained that the boy could be found incompetent to stand trial, and if that happened, the court’s options would be limited.

The court would be required to order efforts to restore the boy to competency, but if that couldn’t be done within about eight months, the judge would be required by law to dismiss the criminal case and bar it from being refiled.The court would then be required to initiate civil commitment proceedings, Candelaria wrote. If the boy is found incompetent because of his age, he wouldn’t fit the definition of a mentally disordered person and no treatment would be available.

“Such a result denies the victims and public of any sense of justice for these heinous murders,” Candelaria wrote. “It also denies the juvenile the rehabilitative services that he apparently needs to both deal with why he was capable of committing these murders and to assist him with the grief and remorse that he is probably feeling.”

Police in the small eastern Arizona town of St. Johns found Romero and Romans shot to death after the boy ran to a neighbor’s house on the afternoon of Nov. 5. He was questioned after Romans’ wife raised suspicions about him the next day, and in a videotape released by prosecutors, he admits pulling the trigger. Romans worked with Romero and rented a room in his home.

Each man was shot several times with a .22-caliber rifle.

Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

The boy is being held in a county juvenile facility, although he was allowed a 48-hour furlough to spend Thanksgiving with his mother.

Brewer said he is now back in custody. The next court hearing is set for Dec. 8

If anyone has any newer updates than this, I'd be interested to read them.

Mr B Brewer is doing a fine job, IMO. And I also think the prosecutor is dealing with the fact that he probably doesn't have a chance. But we'll see. I find it interesting that the stepmother raised suspicions about the child. H'm.

The Az judicial system isn't equipped to deal with an 8 year old being charged with double murder? Then why the hell was the child charged with double murder in the 1st place and IMHO Az needs to send this statute to the shredder.


It was the boarders wife who cast suspicion on him not the stepmother but other than that I agree with you 100%

[sharlock]

Thanks Shaz. I got the men mixed up.
No worries JB:beer:!

[Its just me]

Thanks for the update. I agree its good there is a good defense attorney and judge. I believe in spanking children but 5 times in one night....The step mom may need some attention.
I am against dropping the charges now and then filing them again when this child is older. "If" he did this it is a horrible thing but an 8 year old is not responsible enough to have access to a weapon. It’s very sad the dad and his friend are gone but it's the price you chance when you teach kids to shoot a gun and leave it so the child can see it much less use it.
Again if this kid did the shooting he did it as an eight year old… not as an adult and if punishment is in order at anytime is should be the punishment that fits an 8 year old.
Prayers things will be handled appropriately for the situation….Maybe I’m too soft on kids but I’ve always figured I was mostly responsible for my kids’ doings. I don’t know… I never had a murder to deal with but I think I'd feel responsible. A very sad and touching case and I still have the mind set that there is more to the story than what's been told. Something seems to be amiss.

[Vanillaangel]

Innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.
Somehow I can't imagine this innocence, at the tender age of 8, even beginning to understand all that's befallen him in such a short time. :rose:

[samanthajane13]

No clear cut way to handle 8-year-old's case
By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 20 mins ago



FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – What do you do with an 8-year-old boy charged with two counts of premeditated murder?

Prosecutors and a defense lawyer in rural eastern Arizona are struggling to come up with an answer in the shocking case of a child accused of shooting his father and his father's friend early last month. Outside experts fascinated with the case are just as perplexed.

Although Arizona law allows 8-year-olds to be found delinquent and to be charged as adults, experts say children at that age are far from fully formed mentally and most don't understand the finality of death and the consequences of murder.

"Almost by definition, whatever they do has to be tailored to meet his specific individual needs, and it's not like 'Oh, we've got just the program for this young man. We'll send him here or we'll send him there.' That's not going to work," said Charles Ewing, a psychologist and law professor at the University at Buffalo Law School.

Prosecutors in the case in the small community of St. Johns are conflicted. They say in court documents that the juvenile system is ill-equipped to handle the third-grade boy.

It's not their desire, they say, to "persecute" a child who may not fit the description of normal. But they also say a balance must be struck between rehabilitation and justice for the victims while considering the boy's "tender age."

Police say the boy planned and methodically carried out the shootings, using a .22-caliber rifle when his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Tim Romans returned home from work on Nov. 5.

In a police interview, the boy admitted firing at least two shots at each of the men, but the child's attorney has questioned the admissibility of the confession because no lawyer or parent was present.

The boy also told police in the interview that his stepmother had spanked him five times the night before the shootings because he did not bring home some papers from school. According to documents later released by prosecutors, the boy kept a tally of spankings, vowing the 1,000th would be his last.

Judge Michael Roca recently ordered all proceedings stayed until competency evaluations of the boy are complete; a state expert is expected to evaluate the boy on Dec. 17. Lingering issues include a prosecution motion to drop one of the murder charges against the boy.

Prosecutors also have offered a plea deal. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer has said he's considering the offer, which would resolve the case without transferring it to adult court.

Apache County Attorney Criss Candelaria wrote in a court filing that the deal would resolve all the charges but neither he nor Brewer will discuss details of the offer. Attorneys in the case are bound by a gag order that often prevents them from commenting on filings or developments.

The case has tugged at the hearts of people across the country, who look at their own children and question how an 8-year-old could possibly have been responsible for such a crime.

"It is not a crime in the traditional way we define a crime," says Marsha Levick, legal director of the Juvenile Law Center in Philadelphia, "because he simply lacks the intent to commit a crime."

While many states would allow the boy to be held accountable and even tried as an adult, Levick said that doesn't mean an 8-year-old should be thrust into the criminal justice system.

"I think there should be great doubt in the public's mind of whether this child is even guilty of the crime," she said. "Even if he in fact pulled the trigger, treating him as an adult, holding him responsible in the same way we hold adults responsible is completely inappropriate."

No child 8 years old or younger committed homicide in the United States during 2005-2007, according to FBI statistics.

In 2000, a 6-year-old Michigan boy shot a first-grader at school with a gun he found at the house where he was living. The prosecutor declined to charge the boy, saying common law doesn't allow a child under the age of 7 to be held criminally responsible.

Only 13 states have set a minimum age at which children can be adjudicated delinquent, according to the National Juvenile Defender Center. In eight of those states, the age is 10; Arizona statute specifies an age of 8; three states set a minimum age of 7; and in North Carolina a 6-year-old can be found delinquent.

That there's no consensus among states adds to the difficulty in dealing with children charged with crimes. Jack Levin, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston, said the Arizona case is so extraordinary that even those who would support rehabilitation for the boy would likely be ambivalent.

"There's not a guideline, there's not a profile," he said. "This is all going to have to be ad-hoc. They're going to have to make it up as they go along. Hopefully, not only will they satisfy the need to punish but they'll also make sense."

Brewer, the defense attorney, has objected to the prosecution requests to drop one of the murder charges. He contends it's a tactical move aimed at trying to refile the charge when the boy is older.

If the boy is convicted in juvenile court, he could be locked up until he's 18. Brewer fears the boy could be in prison for life if he were transferred to the adult system.

The boy has been in juvenile custody since his arrest except for a 48-hour period when he was allowed out to spend Thanksgiving with his mother. She has said the boy is housed separately from the older children.

Currently, there are no 8-year-old children in Arizona's juvenile or adult corrections systems. The average age of children incarcerated in the state juvenile corrections department is 15, and the youngest was 11, said Nancy Molever, spokeswoman for the juvenile department.

"With an 8-year-old, that's going to be really no more a challenge than any other kid," she said. "Every kid who comes to us has their own set of challenges, their own needs."

Minors in the adult system are housed in a separate unit, said Nolberto Machiche, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Corrections. In the past 20 years, no child younger than 12 has been housed there. Currently, the youngest is 15, Machiche said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081213/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

[sharlock]

This case continues to trouble me. I once wrote about this topic in an assignment and thought I would share some of that work as it relates to this case. Remember this was from an assignment and I am not a published author. I offer this as a personal viewpoint and am happy for my ideas to be critiqued but would prefer not to have people comment on my writing technique or lack of :tongue:. lol!

This pervasive fear that once innocence is gone a child may be beyond redemption gives rise to distinct repulsion in treating a child as if they had rights. “If they think they can get away with that then they will try to get away with everything” springs readily to mind. Holland went one step further and said “repressive attitudes may well represent a panic-stricken and sometimes vicious response to the increasing power and visibility of children in the public world.”(Holland, 2004, p. 14) As conventions on the rights of the child take form through the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC) society’s unease grows; because the perception of the child’s purity stems not from the idea that a child is inherently innocent due to any kind of divine intervention, but more from their sheer lack of experience.

Occasionally society is given a reason considered good enough to reveal their true misgivings in regards to the corruptibility of children. One such occasion was the murder of James Bulger by two young boys aged 10 and 11yrs, in England. The public was outraged and literally sacrificed the boys on the public alter. “The case was seen as evidence of a malign influence that was spreading like cancer through the younger generation and had to be stamped out.”(Paul, 2003, p.120-156) It seems the public’s collective psyche couldn’t cope with their ideal of the innocent child being disgraced. Nothing short of evil could have done this and there could be only fire and brimstone for such evil. The boys were publicly named and ferociously attacked without mercy and the following milieu was that of violation and disgust; the pervading emotions that of revenge and hate. By betraying society’s notions of a child the boys had effectively forfeited their right to any longer be considered a part of English society and that feeling still persists today. Adults seized the opportunity for tighter restrictions on children to control their behaviour and limit their expressions.

In stark contrast to England’s reactions a murder with incredible similarities occurred in Norway where two six year old boys murdered their playmate, a young girl. Norway’s society held the belief that children of this age could not be punished for such a crime and their focus instead of taking the form of retribution, focused on rehabilitation for the children. This community, while upset at the loss of a child, embraced the two boys, responsible for her death, back into their schools and provided them both with additional support structures to help them cope with what had happened. The girl’s mother holds the belief, along with the rest of her society, that this was the only thing to do and any other action such as jail would have been unconscionable and have served no purpose. This society only wished to rehabilitate the children and bring them back into the folds of their community. It is easy to see the reverberating effect social constructs, such as childhood images, plays in how a society deals with and treats their children; when looking at these two, almost alternate realities, in reaction to the gravest of situations.

A lot can be learnt from Norway’s example to show the importance of having realistic images of childhood and the ability to place the child’s needs above all else. Childhood in Norway is seen as an integral and important part of society and children are treated accordingly. There was no backlash of adult restrictions imposed on the children of Norway following the murder because the Norwegians did not perceive that suddenly all children exposed to so heinous a crime would be infected by it. Prout and James (1997) show using a collection of cross-cultural studies that Norwegian children are trusted to care for themselves from 10years of age but point out that this did not come about due to a lack of day care availability but due to the children’ s reluctance to want to use these services and desire to care for themselves. As Norwegians have always believed a child should be playing outside with mates when not in school or working; they view children as capable and deserving of a right to their own views, so this was a natural progression for them.



I would love to see them follow the wonderful example set by the Norwegians. It was interesting to note the grieving Mum of the girl killed was just as much in favour of rehabilitating the boys as everyone else. She couldn't fathom that a child might be treated as an adult or punished as one! Just goes to show.

[One2Snoop]

This case continues to trouble me. I once wrote about this topic in an assignment and thought I would share some of that work as it relates to this case. Remember this was from an assignment and I am not a published author. I offer this as a personal viewpoint and am happy for my ideas to be critiqued but would prefer not to have people comment on my writing technique or lack of :tongue:. lol!
[/SIZE]

I would love to see them follow the wonderful example set by the Norwegians. It was interesting to note the grieving Mum of the girl killed was just as much in favour of rehabilitating the boys as everyone else. She couldn't fathom that a child might be treated as an adult or punished as one! Just goes to show.



This case really puzzles me and I from where I sit, not understanding anything, I truly appreciate your input sharlock. :patriot:

ITA the boy should be rehabilitated somehow and he's far to young to understand the consequences of his actions. WOW - I'm trying to think back to when I was 8 years old - I do know I still belived in Santa Claus - I can't help but wonder if he did? :confused:

[susie31023]

I really don't want to offend anyone here but, I am troubled by this case and the one Sharlock mentioned in Norway. Killing at any age is horrific. I just don't know what to think. Children are my soft spot, and I can't stand to think of any of them being abused or hurt in any way. That being said we as a whole have come to expect our kids to grow up so fast that it terrifies me at times. Gone are the days of kids being kids, even the young ones are getting cell phones and walking around by themselves at malls. We have many children here in the US that kill. Are they all capable of being rehabilitated? I would pray they are but in reality some really aren't. So how do you tell the difference? I honestly don't know. I can only pray that our Higher power watches over all of our little ones and keep them all safe. Such a very sad case, it tears my heart out. ~Suz

[susie31023]

Hey Susie. You're right. Kids are under immense pressure not to be kids any more. I'm still holding out until we get more info on this case as to whether or not the child pulled the trigger. If he did, and I'm not so sure, then he should have had proper legal representation. If he didn't then he should have had proper legal representation. How can you videotape a kid, with no-one present for him and go tada! We have a killer?

I totally agree JB. I don't think this child was treated correctly from the beginning. I was just saying if he did do it then I am so confused as to how you could handle it. What I would really like to know is why can't children feel safe in their own home? Also Why can't these so called parents BE parents? I don't know but I do know that we as a whole should try to find some way to protect our children and to let them BE kids for the little while they can be.

You would be surprised at the young girls I have seen come in dressed like a hooker on the arms of some old man and be drunk as a skunk. This was by the way around 2 or 3 am. Where were their parents? These girls couldn't be more than 13 or 14 at the very most. I have 2 girls and believe me I knew where they were and who they were with at any given time. I was called over protective and my answer was I only have one chance at being a mom to them and I am going to do my best. I wasn't perfect in any way. I was just terrified I would lose one of them. If that had happened I could never change what I did or didn't do.

[Its just me]

Hey Susie. You're right. Kids are under immense pressure not to be kids any more. I'm still holding out until we get more info on this case as to whether or not the child pulled the trigger. If he did, and I'm not so sure, then he should have had proper legal representation. If he didn't then he should have had proper legal representation. How can you videotape a kid, with no-one present for him and go tada! We have a killer?

I so much agree with everything you said. The sad part is these are adults that didn't see that this kid had proper legal representation.

Sharlock I enjoyed reading your post...good work. The grieving Norwegian Mom is a special person.

fep

[sharlock]

I so much agree with everything you said. The sad part is these are adults that didn't see that this kid had proper legal representation.

Sharlock I enjoyed reading your post...good work. The grieving Norwegian Mom is a special person.

fep

Thankyou everyone for your kind comments. IJM I totally agree she was a VERY special person.:beer:

[susie31023]

Well, we're still on an info lockdown and will be till the 19th. I hope some common sense will be used then in this case.

I couldn't agree more. I pray they find out the truth and if this child was abused give him all the help possible. Such a very sad case. Seems as if no one wins in this one. Either way he will be put away or he will have to go through our mental health system and I'm not sure they will handle it right no matter which way it goes.

[Its just me]

Well, we're still on an info lockdown and will be till the 19th. I hope some common sense will be used then in this case.

We can only hope and pray. We all know the common sense approach is not always used. Probably less that more. fep

[William Anthony]

I couldn't agree more. I pray they find out the truth and if this child was abused give him all the help possible. Such a very sad case. Seems as if no one wins in this one. Either way he will be put away or he will have to go through our mental health system and I'm not sure they will handle it right no matter which way it goes.

I agree completely and pray that, if he did the murders, which I am not convinced he did, he receives the help he most certainly needs, because society can not chance having a double murderer walk around with the chance to do it again.

[William Anthony]

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:lWEkmW2OOwoJ:www.supreme.state.az.u s/opin/pdf2003/CR_01_0223_PR.pdf+Arizona+statute+on+justifiable+h omicide&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

[noelene]

I have no doubt that this boy is guilty.Why would he shoot his father if he was still alive?In fact if his father was shot,and still alive when the boy came home,then he did kill him.The only explanation I can see is that his father allowed a person,who the boy would not have liked punish him,when he would have thought*she's not my mother*.(or maybe his father was very abusive) feelings can run deep in some children,and he does seem to be very smart(in some ways)for his age. was.How quickly he came up with a reason for having gunpowder on his clothes in that interview.Having said that,I don't believe that he should be tried as an adult,but I don't know what to do with him.Hopefully a child physciatrist will have an answer.He cannot be left with the impression that it is ok to kill.How will he feel when he gets to adulthood and realises what he has done?
I just can't understand why he shot the lodger.If it was because he thought that the lodger could tell on him,then that is chilling.
I can't believe that the police were able to question an 8 year old without a guardian of some sort there.Could an 8 year old understand his rights?It's just ridiculous.

[rain88]

I have no doubt that this boy is guilty.

How do you have no doubt when we've seen very little of the evidence regarding this case. I hope that the prosecution has more than just the confession. I certainly wouldn't convict him on that confession alone.

[One2Snoop]

Reading from the above - the autopsy reports should also be able to pin point the angles from which the gun was shot - meaning they should be able to tell if an 8 year old kids height and stature was able to do such a thing based on their findings... for instance I noticed it was reported...



Now an autopsy report prepared in Tucson shows the boy's father was hit four times...twice in the head, once in the arm, once
in the back.

Dr. Phil Keen, the former chief medical examiner for Maricopa County is not involved in the case, but took a look at the report.

He says bullet angles suggest for one head wound on the boy's father suggest a bullet went through the man's construction helmet.

"From the reading of the report, I would say it was likely he was shot through the hard hat and shot by an assailant in front of him."

But evidence from the crime scene and from the autopsy report shows the boy's father was also shot from behind.

Dr. Keen says, "The statement that he was found on a staircase going upward would be confirmed by the wound being fired from below. He was going up the stairs at the time he was shot."

The autopsy concludes there was no evidence the shots were fired at close range.

Timothy Romans was hit six times ...Three times in the head, three times in the chest.

The report also finds no evidence Roman's wounds were made at close range.


So does this tell us the 8 year old boy did it? :confused: :shrug: I certainly hope the jury or whoever decides this kids fate has more to go on than the above. JMO

[William Anthony]

I believe that the child has the presumption of innocence. However, I do want a trial so that all the evidence will be presented. I think, if the judicial system does its job properly, the child and society will receive the assistance and protection deserved. I have only heard a snippet of what is being called a confession and that did not appear to be a confession to me. I guess the question remains in my mind as to the possibility of whether some are just born evil. I am pleased to see that most agree or feel that LE did not act properly and entertain the idea that they acted in a manner untoward.

[William Anthony]

Fox is reporting that the child will be allowed to visit for Christmas. Nature v. nurture is that ancient debate. Does it matter when it comes to murder? Many children have been treated in many horrible manners but have not committed double murder. If it is proven that this child is guilty, then what should be done if a theory of crime is to have the punishment fit the crime. I think I heard that the child was familiar with hunting and, therefore, would suggest that he was aware that guns are used to kill. However, he may have been desensitized to killing and death by seeing it. How much did his micro systems and macro systems contribute to his acceptance of killing and death and does or should it make a difference when it comes to killing two people, if he did it?

[William Anthony]

I don't understand how anyone can not give a rats about his micro and macro, after making this comment, "Reckon how you're treated and where you grow up have a lot to do with that." However, it is clear that the macro system of the judicial institution will have an effect on him at 9 years old due to his alleged conduct at 8.

[Its just me]

He gets to be with his Mum. I don't give a rats about his micro or macro or whatever. He's a child. 9 years old now I understand.

He's going home for Xmas? Good for him.

:rose: Good....Wonderful news. Thanks JB.

[William Anthony]

:rose: Good....Wonderful news. Thanks JB.

I am sorry to correct you but it is me, who is owed the thanks. Check posts ## 134 & 135. You are welcome. I wonder how his father's and his friend's families are feeling this x-mas. I know they must have mixed emotions about their son's death and their grandson's predicament. I wonder if the child learned that violence was acceptable to solve problems based on the conduct of his parents and grandparents, in regard to his macro system.

[tv]

I am sorry to correct you but it is me, who is owed the thanks. Check posts ## 134 & 135. You are welcome. I wonder how his father's and his friend's families are feeling this x-mas. I know they must have mixed emotions about their son's death and their grandson's predicament. I wonder if the child learned that violence was acceptable to solve problems based on the conduct of his parents and grandparents, in regard to his macro system.

William, how nice to see you out and about. I hope you're having a lovely holiday. :)

I'm torn on whether or not I think the child committed the crime but he is innocent until proven guilty and I think the judicial system needs to proceed carefully in order to rehabilitate this child if he is guilty. It would be easy for him to swallowed up in the system and never have a productive or normal life due to something he did before his judgement was fully formed.

[William Anthony]

William, how nice to see you out and about. I hope you're having a lovely holiday. :)

I'm torn on whether or not I think the child committed the crime but he is innocent until proven guilty and I think the judicial system needs to proceed carefully in order to rehabilitate this child if he is guilty. It would be easy for him to swallowed up in the system and never have a productive or normal life due to something he did before his judgement was fully formed.

Thank you very much but I try to live with spirit of Christmas in my heart everyday. I think it is a shame to only show the spirit on certain days and I wish you the same each and everyday.

I agree with your first sentence in the second paragraph. I think that, if the true purpose of the judicial system is rehabilitation, then it should proceed carefully with individually designed methods for every convict. I am not sure at what age judgment is fully formed due to an individual's life experiences. There have been instances when children younger than he and animals saved lives by dialing 911. I don't know how productive and normal his life will be, if the court of public opinion chooses to label him a double murderer. If the families of the slain believe him to be the killer, they may engage in an endless effort to ruin his life and garner public support, because they believe he murdered their sons.

[Its just me]

I am sorry to correct you but it is me, who is owed the thanks. Check posts ## 134 & 135. You are welcome. I wonder how his father's and his friend's families are feeling this x-mas. I know they must have mixed emotions about their son's death and their grandson's predicament. I wonder if the child learned that violence was acceptable to solve problems based on the conduct of his parents and grandparents, in regard to his macro system.


Thank you...please accept my apology. Without knowing the loved ones of the deceased I can only guess how they feel. Most likely they are very heart broken but I don't know. I guess if this ever goes to court we may learn more about all involved. I'm just glad the child is going to get to visit his mother for Christmas. Merry Christmas. fep

[susie31023]

Thank you...please accept my apology. Without knowing the loved ones of the deceased I can only guess how they feel. Most likely they are very heart broken but I don't know. I guess if this ever goes to court we may learn more about all involved. I'm just glad the child is going to get to visit his mother for Christmas. Merry Christmas. fep

Very beautifully said my Dear friend. Wishing all a Merry Christmas:rose:~Suz

[William Anthony]

Thank you...please accept my apology. Without knowing the loved ones of the deceased I can only guess how they feel. Most likely they are very heart broken but I don't know. I guess if this ever goes to court we may learn more about all involved. I'm just glad the child is going to get to visit his mother for Christmas. Merry Christmas. fep

I do agree that is it wonderful that the child gets to spend Christmas with his mother. I saw her on a television show and it was obvious to me that she loves her son very much. They will have time to spend together in the future and hopefully all will be well with them. I think we all have lost someone and their absence brings a sadness not fully understood by others. However, I think that there are feelings that are common to all who have that experience. I know that the first year is always the worst. I know that regardless two families, if they have survivors, are missing their sons, bothers, uncles, and cousins. May God grant love and a beautiful Christmas to all.

[tv]

Thank you very much but I try to live with spirit of Christmas in my heart everyday. I think it is a shame to only show the spirit on certain days and I wish you the same each and everyday.

I agree with your first sentence in the second paragraph. I think that, if the true purpose of the judicial system is rehabilitation, then it should proceed carefully with individually designed methods for every convict. I am not sure at what age judgment is fully formed due to an individual's life experiences. There have been instances when children younger than he and animals saved lives by dialing 911. I don't know how productive and normal his life will be, if the court of public opinion chooses to label him a double murderer. If the families of the slain believe him to be the killer, they may engage in an endless effort to ruin his life and garner public support, because they believe he murdered their sons.

I'm glad you're able to keep the spirit of Christmas in your heart all year around. That's an admirable feat and certainly a worthy one.

You made some good points about the child and whether or not he's formed the judgement to know the difference between right and wrong and the consequences of his actions. I don't believe there's a magic number that applies to every child that dictates when they've reached that stage of development.

I was hoping you had decided to give up on the 'other case' but your last two lines are thinly veiled references to it. Not going there. :)

[One2Snoop]

William, how nice to see you out and about. I hope you're having a lovely holiday. :)

I'm torn on whether or not I think the child committed the crime but he is innocent until proven guilty and I think the judicial system needs to proceed carefully in order to rehabilitate this child if he is guilty. It would be easy for him to swallowed up in the system and never have a productive or normal life due to something he did before his judgement was fully formed.


ITA with your post and IMO you've hit the nail on the head. JMO.

No case on crimelibrary that I'm aware of has anything to do with who's right or wrong, nor does it matter in the long run what we think - I look at this site as being a sounding board of thoughts and idea's and I'm certain after all the time I've spent here no one here thinks alike, although we may all agree on occasion. :eek:
I know, gasp! :eek: we should all be thankful and relish the thought LOL! ;) With that said, I'm certain I've not added a thing to this conversation LOL.

I see Santa's feet dangling in the fireplace - which means its time for me to say good night. :seeya: (tee hee)I'm certainly glad I don't have a full blown fire going in the FP right now! :tongue: Merry Christmas to all of you. :rose:

[William Anthony]

I'm glad you're able to keep the spirit of Christmas in your heart all year around. That's an admirable feat and certainly a worthy one.

You made some good points about the child and whether or not he's formed the judgement to know the difference between right and wrong and the consequences of his actions. I don't believe there's a magic number that applies to every child that dictates when they've reached that stage of development.

I was hoping you had decided to give up on the 'other case' but your last two lines are thinly veiled references to it. Not going there. :)

I think I said I try to keep the spirit in my heart everyday or, at least that is what I meant to say. :)

Yes, there seems to be a feeling that the child may not be competent to stand trial and I am not certain about that.

I would suspect that you think that my referencing the court of public opinion and the feelings and conduct of family members of the victims is related to the other double murder trial. I think those sentences reflect a commonality of occurrences that may happen with any murder trial. I think those families may have similar feelings as this, "My lovely living boy, My hope, my happiness, My love, my life, my joy", about their sons, which is all I meant and that they may do all that is within their power to keep the memory of their sons alive, even if it means seeking vengeance of the child in the future.

[William Anthony]

ITA with your post and IMO you've hit the nail on the head. JMO.

No case on crimelibrary that I'm aware of has anything to do with who's right or wrong, nor does it matter in the long run what we think - I look at this site as being a sounding board of thoughts and idea's and I'm certain after all the time I've spent here no one here thinks alike, although we may all agree on occasion. :eek:
I know, gasp! :eek: we should all be thankful and relish the thought LOL! ;) With that said, I'm certain I've not added a thing to this conversation LOL.

I see Santa's feet dangling in the fireplace - which means its time for me to say good night. :seeya: (tee hee)I'm certainly glad I don't have a full blown fire going in the FP right now! :tongue: Merry Christmas to all of you. :rose:

I think that this case has evoked a lot of feelings on who is right or wrong, i.e., LE conducting an interrogation of the child with out representation, whether the child was or was not abused by his father. I am a little torn on whether it matters what we think or whether our ideas matter, as we do not know who reads these posts. I think expressing our ideas publicly may lead to someone reading these posts who has an influence to have things changed. I remember a poster repeatedly saying that some posts were wrong and ridiculous. This is were we agree, because I spent an endless amount of time trying to explain this to the poster, with the assistance of maybe two or three others, with whom the poster disagreed. Perhaps, if the poster had read your post back then it would have made a difference. However, like yourself, I do not know how much this posts added to the discussion of the case, so let me wish you a Merry Christmas and hope and a warm fire place but don't make it too hot for Santa. :)

[tv]

ITA with your post and IMO you've hit the nail on the head. JMO.

No case on crimelibrary that I'm aware of has anything to do with who's right or wrong, nor does it matter in the long run what we think - I look at this site as being a sounding board of thoughts and idea's and I'm certain after all the time I've spent here no one here thinks alike, although we may all agree on occasion. :eek:
I know, gasp! :eek: we should all be thankful and relish the thought LOL! ;) With that said, I'm certain I've not added a thing to this conversation LOL.

I see Santa's feet dangling in the fireplace - which means its time for me to say good night. :seeya: (tee hee)I'm certainly glad I don't have a full blown fire going in the FP right now! :tongue: Merry Christmas to all of you. :rose:

I think everyone is entitled to their opinions and I enjoy reading them all. So many times other posters come up with things that I hadn't even considered and it sends me down avenues I haven't explored. I appreciate everyone's contribution and I'm looking to another great year on here. :)

BTW, you added quite a bit to this conversation. I hope Santa didn't get his feet singed and that you're having a great Christmas. :seeya:

[tv]

I think I said I try to keep the spirit in my heart everyday or, at least that is what I meant to say. :)

Yes, there seems to be a feeling that the child may not be competent to stand trial and I am not certain about that.

I would suspect that you think that my referencing the court of public opinion and the feelings and conduct of family members of the victims is related to the other double murder trial. I think those sentences reflect a commonality of occurrences that may happen with any murder trial. I think those families may have similar feelings as this, "My lovely living boy, My hope, my happiness, My love, my life, my joy", about their sons, which is all I meant and that they may do all that is within their power to keep the memory of their sons alive, even if it means seeking vengeance of the child in the future.

I prefer to wait and see/hear some of the evidence that points to this young child before I say the family should or will seek vengeance on the boy. It's possible that there was a situation involving abuse or that the child didn't commit the murders at all.

[William Anthony]

I prefer to wait and see/hear some of the evidence that points to this young child before I say the family should or will seek vengeance on the boy. It's possible that there was a situation involving abuse or that the child didn't commit the murders at all.

I have said that the child deserves the presumption of innocence as does any other defendant/accused. However, that has not previously stopped the court of public opinion from offering an opinion on guilt or innocence prior to one item of evidence being introduced in a trial. I think I said and am almost certain I said that the families may seek vengeance. As we are aware, there are many, who may not agree with a verdict that says the child is not guilty and may suppot and even encourage the families in their pursuit of vengeance. The journal chronicling the alleged abuse may not be admissible, unless the child takes the stand and there is always a chance for a plea bargain.

[tv]

I have said that the child deserves the presumption of innocence as does any other defendant/accused. However, that has not previously stopped the court of public opinion from offering an opinion on guilt or innocence prior to one item of evidence being introduced in a trial. I think I said and am almost certain I said that the families may seek vengeance. As we are aware, there are many, who may not agree with a verdict that says the child is not guilty and may suppot and even encourage the families in their pursuit of vengeance. The journal chronicling the alleged abuse may not be admissible, unless the child takes the stand and there is always a chance for a plea bargain.

That's the beauty of being a member of the court of public opinion -- we can speculate, disagree, debate and discuss until our hearts are content. We can come up with outlandish scenarios and ponder the state of the participant's mind with no mental health training at all. :) I hope vengeance won't be encouraged but do hope that justice will be done wherever that leads.

[William Anthony]

That's the beauty of being a member of the court of public opinion -- we can speculate, disagree, debate and discuss until our hearts are content. We can come up with outlandish scenarios and ponder the state of the participant's mind with no mental health training at all. :) I hope vengeance won't be encouraged but do hope that justice will be done wherever that leads.

I sincerely hope that all realize the flaws in the court of public opinion that you have mentioned but fear that many look to and even feed some of those things mentioned in your post, which feed the fuel of vengeance. I think, judiging from the posts on another double murder, that vengeance will be encouraged, should this child be found not guilty or the punishment does not seem to fit the crime.

I also wonder, if a learned pattern of violence as an acceptable resolution from the father's parents, may have contributed to the murders. I am not speculating just wondering. Perhaps, a family member may write a book and that will increase or decrease my speculation. Here is a link that might help us understand the case a little better and allow us to speculate on some factors that may have caused or contributed to the double murders, if the child did them.

http://books.google.com/books?id=K4v-xqq4SmsC&pg=PA137&lpg=PA137&dq=preteenage+children+that+murder&source=web&ots=WkxdL5vXaz&sig=C-5o4xf1XQegVb_bwHtwIja1Z0M&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA140,M1

[One2Snoop]

I think that this case has evoked a lot of feelings on who is right or wrong, i.e., LE conducting an interrogation of the child with out representation, whether the child was or was not abused by his father. I am a little torn on whether it matters what we think or whether our ideas matter, as we do not know who reads these posts. I think expressing our ideas publicly may lead to someone reading these posts who has an influence to have things changed. I remember a poster repeatedly saying that some posts were wrong and ridiculous. This is were we agree, because I spent an endless amount of time trying to explain this to the poster, with the assistance of maybe two or three others, with whom the poster disagreed. Perhaps, if the poster had read your post back then it would have made a difference. However, like yourself, I do not know how much this posts added to the discussion of the case, so let me wish you a Merry Christmas and hope and a warm fire place but don't make it too hot for Santa. :)

I'm sorry WA but I believe you misunderstood my post - I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone or any particular situation/conversation here at CL . I was trying to be polite by saying we don't always agree but I think for the most part people here can agree to disagree and move on. I guess I should just come out and say what I mean next time. We're all entitled to our opinions whether as readers or onlookers, we like them or not.

:patriot:

[William Anthony]

I'm sorry WA but I believe you misunderstood my post - I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone or any particular situation/conversation here at CL . I was trying to be polite by saying we don't always agree but I think for the most part people here can agree to disagree and move on. I guess I should just come out and say what I mean next time. We're all entitled to our opinions whether as readers or onlookers, we like them or not.

:patriot:

I think you may have misunderstood my post and I am, likewise, sorry. My point is that our posts may lead someone, with the power to so do, to change something based on what they read. I was not disagreeing with your post that we should and can disagree civilly. I was simply suggesting that a poster may be more acceptable of that information, if it came from those with whom she or he agrees. I am mindful of the fact that the child needs all the support he can get, just as I am of the families of the slain victims. I have heard it expressed that a trial is a search for truth, with which I do not personally agree. However, if the alleged confession is truly a confession, should it be used in that search, despite the method it was acquired, and should the child be given the right to explain through direct examination, or should he be allowed to take the 5th and the alleged confession tossed in favor of his Constitutional rights and how will these things affect the court of public opinion, assuming there is no plea bargain?

[William Anthony]

I believe the child is entitled to the presumption of innocence, meaning the prosecution is required, absent a plea bargain, to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. It appears that Mr. Romans was killed from a frontal assault and Mr. Romero was killed both from behind and the front. I don't know if there is enough evidence to determine which shot came first or which one was the fatal one. It sounds eerily similar to another double murder, which suggests that there might have been two killers. However, I guess the question will be, if all the wounds could have been committed by one weapon. The point here is that, if the child is not the killer, someone was a brutal physcopath to leave the child to be traumatized by finding his father and his father's friend in such a way, or the child has deep seated emotional problems that may not lend themselves to rehabilitation and, if not, then the questions must be what should be done with the child in order to protect society and how will the court of public opinion respond if that is the case.

[Its just me]

I believe the child is entitled to the presumption of innocence, meaning the prosecution is required, absent a plea bargain, to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt. It appears that Mr. Romans was killed from a frontal assault and Mr. Romero was killed both from behind and the front. I don't know if there is enough evidence to determine which shot came first or which one was the fatal one. It sounds eerily similar to another double murder, which suggests that there might have been two killers. However, I guess the question will be, if all the wounds could have been committed by one weapon. The point here is that, if the child is not the killer, someone was a brutal physcopath to leave the child to be traumatized by finding his father and his father's friend in such a way, or the child has deep seated emotional problems that may not lend themselves to rehabilitation and, if not, then the questions must be what should be done with the child in order to protect society and how will the court of public opinion respond if that is the case.

With what "little" is known I seriously question who the actual killer is in this case. If it is proved to be the child he may not be able to be rehabilitated but at this point that is impossible to know. Only lots of time will make it possible to be known.
Also unless/until it is proven beyond any doubts I will never believe this child murdered two people for NO Reason. Murder is never the answer but an 8 year old child doesn't have the ability to weigh out the options when they are in a provoking environment plus an 8 year old doesn’t have many options.
This case is very heart touching to me…..even if it’s proven he is guilty. If true motherly love and the right kind of discipline can not rehabilitate this precious “child” by the time he reaches the age of accountability I would agree to but him behind bars. If he remains locked up…trust me this child is lost for ever.
There are families of two deceased men and an 8 year old….Nothing will bring back the loved ones for their family but this 8 year old may can have a reasonable productive life if he is handled properly.
I think we all have “wanting vengeance” under certain circumstances built into us….but outside of the courts that is not the answer…..Vengeance belongs to God according to His Word. Getting revenge may make one feel better but forgiveness will give one peace.
Only an opinion. fep

[William Anthony]

With what "little" is known I seriously question who the actual killer is in this case. If it is proved to be the child he may not be able to be rehabilitated but at this point that is impossible to know. Only lots of time will make it possible to be known.
Also unless/until it is proven beyond any doubts I will never believe this child murdered two people for NO Reason. Murder is never the answer but an 8 year old child doesn't have the ability to weigh out the options when they are in a provoking environment plus an 8 year old doesn’t have many options.
This case is very heart touching to me…..even if it’s proven he is guilty. If true motherly love and the right kind of discipline can not rehabilitate this precious “child” by the time he reaches the age of accountability I would agree to but him behind bars. If he remains locked up…trust me this child is lost for ever.
There are families of two deceased men and an 8 year old….Nothing will bring back the loved ones for their family but this 8 year old may can have a reasonable productive life if he is handled properly.
I think we all have “wanting vengeance” under certain circumstances built into us….but outside of the courts that is not the answer…..Vengeance belongs to God according to His Word. Getting revenge may make one feel better but forgiveness will give one peace.
Only an opinion. fep


It is arduous for us to imagine an 8 year old child murdering two people for no reason but that may well be the case. Usually children that go on to commit murders of humans for no apparent reason, have displayed brutality toward animals. However, this child had access to a gun and may have killed animals regularly on hunting trips. I think we will have to wait to see. If he was the killer, he was familiar enough with the guns to reload it.

While the child is most certainly precious, so were the lives of those murdered to some. I totally agree that vengenance belongs to God and the act of forgiveness will bring peace. However, I was speaking more to the feeling of some in the court of public opinion, who feel that vengeance over the murder of a loved one is understandable and acceptable. I can think of no reason to kill two people other than in self-defense of defense of a loved one. Are we willing to trust that someone, who has shown no respect for human life at such an early age, if the child did it, can be rehabilitated to the point that society can feel free with him walking among us? It is sort of like a sexual predator to me. Can we believe that they have been rehabilitated or is there something innately wrong with them that produces recitivism? I am willing to have the child get all the help he can get, if he did the murders, which I do not believe he did. Given the chance that he did, I am uncertain, if given all the motherly love and support the system can offer, that this child can truly be rehabilitated, if he did it, and, although I agree with your sentiments about vengeance and forgiveness, I don't know, judging from posts I have seen that the court of opinion will agree with our feelings as it pertains to the rights of the victims family members to seek vengeance.

[Deepwater]

While the child is most certainly precious, so were the lives of those murdered to some. I totally agree that vengenance belongs to God and the act of forgiveness will bring peace. However, I was speaking more to the feeling of some in the court of public opinion, who feel that vengeance over the murder of a loved one is understandable and acceptable. I can think of no reason to kill two people other than in self-defense of defense of a loved one. Are we willing to trust that someone, who has shown no respect for human life at such an early age, if the child did it, can be rehabilitated to the point that society can feel free with him walking among us? It is sort of like a sexual predator to me. Can we believe that they have been rehabilitated or is there something innately wrong with them that produces recitivism? I am willing to have the child get all the help he can get, if he did the murders, which I do not believe he did. Given the chance that he did, I am uncertain, if given all the motherly love and support the system can offer, that this child can truly be rehabilitated, if he did it, and, although I agree with your sentiments about vengeance and forgiveness, I don't know, judging from posts I have seen that the court of opinion will agree with our feelings as it pertains to the rights of the victims family members to seek vengeance.

Hello everybody!

I have received some complaints about this discussion paralleling too closely another in a CLOSED forum. Please no, do not transfer arguments from that forum to this one. BTW the child confessed without a parent or attorney present (take that for what it's worth), is awaiting a competency evaluation and has not been tried.

The topic of familial vengeance is inappropriate at this time, especially since he is 9 and at least one of the families concerned is his own.

This is a fascinating case so let's keep the discussion on track. And maybe if all goes well in the OTHER forum we can se about expanding that discussion later.

Thanks,

--D

[sharlock]

I cannot understand how anyone can make the statement that a child who has commited murder probably couldn't be rehabilitated and then compare it to the crimes of a sexual predator who generally cannot be rehabilitated. This is sickening to me. The fact that this is a child would increase the chances of rehabilitation assuming that he was given the necessary support and counselling. The fact that a child is capable of such an act is not a basis for assuming that the child must be innately evil; acting on the deluded assumption that a child could not shoot someone unless they were already too damaged and sick to be repaired. I just cannot understand this type of reasoning. Children at this age are often avid viewers of cartoons and the like with absolutely rampant imaginations to go with and a shifting, malleable understanding of reality ergo their beleif that they might be able to fly on the odd occasion. I have a boy this age and I will share a story that I very rarely speak of (because I get very upset when I think or talk about it) because I think that it might make the point I am trying to get across here better than me just saying that something is so.
'My boy was playing outside and I was in the kitchen cooking when I heard a strange gurgling sound and a dull thud. A sense of dread came over me for no apparent reason and I ran outside to check on my child. He was sitting on the ground with his hands up near his neck and his eyes absolutely brimming with tears. I asked him what was wrong and as I walked towards him I noticed a rope around his neck being covered by his hands. He started crying louder and calling for me but his voice sounded strained and it was apparent the poor boy was very much in shock. When I was finally able to calm him down enough to talk to me he showed me a very nasty rope burn around his neck and told me that he had tied the rope around his neck and then tied it to the side of the garage wall and then he jumped out onto the floor. Thankfully the rope was not tied high enough for this to hang him but it did tighten around his throat and cause awful bruising and burning around the neck.
My son is a happy healthy child I swear! He is not and was not depressed in any way. He simply did not understand that this act might have killed him until that nearly happened. He'd seen this on a cartoon the monkey fell out of a tree and the vine caught him by the neck, the monkey made a funny face and let go a bummy burp as my boy called them and the monkey was flung back up into the tree to where he had been sitting originally. Well my boy had thought this was hilarious, bodily noises and all and he went outside and imitated the show. I was devestated, imagine if he had actually died and I might have always wondered if a child of 7 could actually want to commit suicide. I would not have guessed that he was imitating a bloody stupid cartoon if we had not been lucky enough to have an unharmed son to tell us this. I had told my boy that cartoons were not real life and thought he really understood that and for the most part I beleive he does understand that but children are not always reasonable or rational and that is why we as adults or parents need to be vigilant and sincere in our care of them.
I know that my son, understanding better now the consequences of his actions, would be far less likely to repeat such a dangerous act; and I have no doubt that it would be the same for this poor 8yr old boy if he was in fact responsible (and that is yet to be shown imo).

[One2Snoop]

:eek: Gasp Sharlock -I totally get what you're saying. Thanks for sharing your story and I'm glad your son is ok. :rose:

[Its just me]

Thank you for posting Sharlock, As a mother who raised two sons I agree with your thoughts. Also comparing a child to a sexual predator has no logic because you’re comparing a child with an adult. I'm also thankful your son is ok and thank you for sharing.

I only follow this case on this thread...so I'm kinda lost on some of what Deepwater is talking about but if I have offended anyone in my posts..... I humbly apologize. I have this little fella in my heart and in my prayers and that's were he will stay until it's proven he's a lost case and unworthy. fep

[One2Snoop]

Thank you for posting Sharlock, As a mother who raised two sons I agree with your thoughts. Also comparing a child to a sexual predator has no logic because you’re comparing a child with an adult. I'm also thankful your son is ok and thank you for sharing.

I only follow this case on this thread...so I'm kinda lost on some of what Deepwater is talking about but if I have offended anyone in my posts..... I humbly apologize. I have this little fella in my heart and in my prayers and that's were he will stay until it's proven he's a lost case and unworthy. fep


:rose: You've not done anything my dear FEP. I believe what she's referring to has been deleted or rmoved because I was a bit confused at first to until I pm'd and asked.

[Its just me]

:rose: You've not done anything my dear FEP. I believe what she's referring to has been deleted or rmoved because I was a bit confused at first to until I pm'd and asked.

:) Thanks One2. :beer:

[lighthousedazy]

I cannot understand how anyone can make the statement that a child who has commited murder probably couldn't be rehabilitated and then compare it to the crimes of a sexual predator who generally cannot be rehabilitated. This is sickening to me. The fact that this is a child would increase the chances of rehabilitation assuming that he was given the necessary support and counselling. The fact that a child is capable of such an act is not a basis for assuming that the child must be innately evil; acting on the deluded assumption that a child could not shoot someone unless they were already too damaged and sick to be repaired. I just cannot understand this type of reasoning. Children at this age are often avid viewers of cartoons and the like with absolutely rampant imaginations to go with and a shifting, malleable understanding of reality ergo their beleif that they might be able to fly on the odd occasion. I have a boy this age and I will share a story that I very rarely speak of (because I get very upset when I think or talk about it) because I think that it might make the point I am trying to get across here better than me just saying that something is so.
'My boy was playing outside and I was in the kitchen cooking when I heard a strange gurgling sound and a dull thud. A sense of dread came over me for no apparent reason and I ran outside to check on my child. He was sitting on the ground with his hands up near his neck and his eyes absolutely brimming with tears. I asked him what was wrong and as I walked towards him I noticed a rope around his neck being covered by his hands. He started crying louder and calling for me but his voice sounded strained and it was apparent the poor boy was very much in shock. When I was finally able to calm him down enough to talk to me he showed me a very nasty rope burn around his neck and told me that he had tied the rope around his neck and then tied it to the side of the garage wall and then he jumped out onto the floor. Thankfully the rope was not tied high enough for this to hang him but it did tighten around his throat and cause awful bruising and burning around the neck.
My son is a happy healthy child I swear! He is not and was not depressed in any way. He simply did not understand that this act might have killed him until that nearly happened. He'd seen this on a cartoon the monkey fell out of a tree and the vine caught him by the neck, the monkey made a funny face and let go a bummy burp as my boy called them and the monkey was flung back up into the tree to where he had been sitting originally. Well my boy had thought this was hilarious, bodily noises and all and he went outside and imitated the show. I was devestated, imagine if he had actually died and I might have always wondered if a child of 7 could actually want to commit suicide. I would not have guessed that he was imitating a bloody stupid cartoon if we had not been lucky enough to have an unharmed son to tell us this. I had told my boy that cartoons were not real life and thought he really understood that and for the most part I beleive he does understand that but children are not always reasonable or rational and that is why we as adults or parents need to be vigilant and sincere in our care of them.
I know that my son, understanding better now the consequences of his actions, would be far less likely to repeat such a dangerous act; and I have no doubt that it would be the same for this poor 8yr old boy if he was in fact responsible (and that is yet to be shown imo).Sharlock, I am so glad that no harm came to your son. (New parents braid up your window blind cords.) I have not followed this case very closely, but I can only imagine a child doing this in case of abuse. When I was growing up in the 50's and 60's, a teacher stated that " a child at the age of 7 or under could not be charged with a crime." This child is 8 but still a child. I am bewildered by this case, but I do not think this child can ever be a productive member of society. Just my opinion. :shrug:

[lighthousedazy]

Hi. Why do you think the child did anything? This case is becoming more clouded every week. It now appears that the child wasn't discussing the 'stepmother' at all about the alleged spankings. The family relationships are all over the place. I doubt the boy was sure where he stood in all of this. There is no proof beyond that questionable video confession which, I'll say again, will probably be inadmissible in a court of law. He had no adults, no guardians, no lawyers. He was 8 years old. He had rights which have been trampled all over. Brewer is doing a good job for the boy. I think that Apache County Pros Office and the Attorney-General of Arizona will be considering their next moves very carefully.From the news and media reports, I believe he shot and killed these 2 adults. jmo. BUT, I do believe in our justice system and I do hope that this is thoroughly investigated. :shrug:

[William Anthony]

Hello everybody!

I have received some complaints about this discussion paralleling too closely another in a CLOSED forum. Please no, do not transfer arguments from that forum to this one. BTW the child confessed without a parent or attorney present (take that for what it's worth), is awaiting a competency evaluation and has not been tried.

The topic of familial vengeance is inappropriate at this time, especially since he is 9 and at least one of the families concerned is his own.

This is a fascinating case so let's keep the discussion on track. And maybe if all goes well in the OTHER forum we can se about expanding that discussion later.

Thanks,

--D

I think that double murder trials may somewhat parallel each other, especially if they seem to be premeditated.

The issue of whether or not the child is competent to stand trial does not have anything to do with whether or not the child committed double murder, imho. If the child is ruled incompetent, what does that mean? Will he not be institutionalized or have state oversight until such time as he is deemed competent. I think the alleged confession will stand until such time as a court of law rules on its admissibility as evidence. I assume there will be a hearing as to what should be done with the child in the event there is not a trial and the alleged confession will play a part in that hearing.

I personally do not see how the discussion is off track as we are allowed to offer opinions, I thought, as to what may happen to those involved in the crime and is just not limited to the child and by extension involves the families of the slain. I thought as members of the court of public opinion and members of this community we are allowed to offer opinions even if they are unpopular, so long as they do not violate the rules.

I fail to see how what happens on another forum, has any bearing on this one. Can you please explain? I do believe that the court of public opinion is applicable to many subjects, not just crimes, by the recent political threads. I understand that one of the families was the child's but the person he is accused of killing is also a member of that same family and the other person is from a different family. I think others jump to quickly to an undeserved conclusion as it is out of concern for this child as to how the reaction of those families will effect the child's care in the future and what voice they may have in that future. I am concerned that a person's First Amendment rights do not seem to be honored on this public forum and the example it is setting. I do not wish you to misunderstand as I am not making any accusations but simply expressing my concern. I am not contesting anyone's authority and will succumb to your decision that discussions about the slain victims families and the court of public opinion seeking violence is off topic.

I once heard a joke about an alcoholic who wanted to take a drink and wanted to start and argument for an excuse with his dutiful wife. One morning he told her to cook him two eggs, one soft fried and the other scrambled. When she agreed and cooked them and served him, he got mad, saying, d**n, can't you get anything right-you scrambled the wrong one and went off to get drunk. It seems that one can always find something to complain about if they have another motive in mind. :) Thanks for allowing me to express my opinions.

[William Anthony]

I cannot understand how anyone can make the statement that a child who has commited murder probably couldn't be rehabilitated and then compare it to the crimes of a sexual predator who generally cannot be rehabilitated.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/9682/Public-Adult-Crimes-Require-Adult-Time.aspx

http://www.answers.com/topic/juvenile-justice-system-juvenile-crime-and-violence

[William Anthony]

The fact that a child is capable of such an act is not a basis for assuming that the child must be innately evil; acting on the deluded assumption that a child could not shoot someone unless they were already too damaged and sick to be repaired. I just cannot understand this type of reasoning.

This has been a debate for centuries. I do believe that some are born to do evil, although I do not know the cause, and I do not assume this is the case with this child, although I think it is a proper question based on the circumstances.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=3359185

[William Anthony]

I cannot understand how anyone can make the statement that a child who has commited murder probably couldn't be rehabilitated and then compare it to the crimes of a sexual predator who generally cannot be rehabilitated. This is sickening to me. The fact that this is a child would increase the chances of rehabilitation assuming that he was given the necessary support and counselling. The fact that a child is capable of such an act is not a basis for assuming that the child must be innately evil; acting on the deluded assumption that a child could not shoot someone unless they were already too damaged and sick to be repaired. I just cannot understand this type of reasoning. Children at this age are often avid viewers of cartoons and the like with absolutely rampant imaginations to go with and a shifting, malleable understanding of reality ergo their beleif that they might be able to fly on the odd occasion. I have a boy this age and I will share a story that I very rarely speak of (because I get very upset when I think or talk about it) because I think that it might make the point I am trying to get across here better than me just saying that something is so.
'My boy was playing outside and I was in the kitchen cooking when I heard a strange gurgling sound and a dull thud. A sense of dread came over me for no apparent reason and I ran outside to check on my child. He was sitting on the ground with his hands up near his neck and his eyes absolutely brimming with tears. I asked him what was wrong and as I walked towards him I noticed a rope around his neck being covered by his hands. He started crying louder and calling for me but his voice sounded strained and it was apparent the poor boy was very much in shock. When I was finally able to calm him down enough to talk to me he showed me a very nasty rope burn around his neck and told me that he had tied the rope around his neck and then tied it to the side of the garage wall and then he jumped out onto the floor. Thankfully the rope was not tied high enough for this to hang him but it did tighten around his throat and cause awful bruising and burning around the neck.
My son is a happy healthy child I swear! He is not and was not depressed in any way. He simply did not understand that this act might have killed him until that nearly happened. He'd seen this on a cartoon the monkey fell out of a tree and the vine caught him by the neck, the monkey made a funny face and let go a bummy burp as my boy called them and the monkey was flung back up into the tree to where he had been sitting originally. Well my boy had thought this was hilarious, bodily noises and all and he went outside and imitated the show. I was devestated, imagine if he had actually died and I might have always wondered if a child of 7 could actually want to commit suicide. I would not have guessed that he was imitating a bloody stupid cartoon if we had not been lucky enough to have an unharmed son to tell us this. I had told my boy that cartoons were not real life and thought he really understood that and for the most part I beleive he does understand that but children are not always reasonable or rational and that is why we as adults or parents need to be vigilant and sincere in our care of them.
I know that my son, understanding better now the consequences of his actions, would be far less likely to repeat such a dangerous act; and I have no doubt that it would be the same for this poor 8yr old boy if he was in fact responsible (and that is yet to be shown imo).

I am glad your son is fine and pray for the best for him. I think the two situations are very dissimilar. If what has been reported is true, the child took time to reload the gun and was intent upon killing others and not misunderstanding what he had seen on cartoons. There is nothing that I am aware of that stated the child was acting out what he saw in a cartoon.

[William Anthony]

Thank you for posting Sharlock, As a mother who raised two sons I agree with your thoughts. Also comparing a child to a sexual predator has no logic because you’re comparing a child with an adult. I'm also thankful your son is ok and thank you for sharing.

I only follow this case on this thread...so I'm kinda lost on some of what Deepwater is talking about but if I have offended anyone in my posts..... I humbly apologize. I have this little fella in my heart and in my prayers and that's were he will stay until it's proven he's a lost case and unworthy. fep

You have not offended me. That's for certain. As with any crime, we have a balancing test, which is what is good for society and what is good for the accused. There are children who are sexual predators.

http://www.csom.org/pubs/mythsfacts.html

[William Anthony]

From the news and media reports, I believe he shot and killed these 2 adults. jmo. BUT, I do believe in our justice system and I do hope that this is thoroughly investigated. :shrug:

I do not believe that the child knowingly and voluntarily confessed. I do not believe at this point that he is guilty. I totally agree with the rest of your post.

[William Anthony]

I know you want to see justice served. That's why you're here. But there's got to be proof before I believe this child hurt anyone. IMO there's no proof at all. Not at this point in time. If you can post some news sites that show otherwise, I'd be interested to read.

I truly understand your point but, IIRC, there is a gag order in place. With that in mind, up to this point we have only the news that was leaked prior to the gag order, which according to LE is that the child confessed. Whether that confession will be admitted, if there is a trial or hearing is a horse of a different color, imho. The question in so many minds, imho, is whether or not the confession is true, irrespective of how it was acquired.

[Its just me]

You have not offended me. That's for certain. As with any crime, we have a balancing test, which is what is good for society and what is good for the accused. There are children who are sexual predators.

http://www.csom.org/pubs/mythsfacts.html

I did not read the link word by word so I could have missed something. What I comprehended was the juvenile sexual predators mentioned were 12 and above. I would have different feelings on some things if the child in this case was 12 and above because there is a big difference in an 8 year old child and a 12 and above juvenile. fep

[William Anthony]

I did not read the link word by word so I could have missed something. What I comprehended was the juvenile sexual predators mentioned were 12 and above. I would have different feelings on some things if the child in this case was 12 and above because there is a big difference in an 8 year old child and a 12 and above juvenile. fep

The only point I was making is that all sexual predators are not adults. I do not consider the age as a determinative factor. I look more to the fact as to whether or not the accused could understand and appreciate the consequences of his actions, meaning did the child understand that his conduct was wrong.

[William Anthony]

Here is what I found on the competency of a juvenile under Arizona law.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/8/00291-01.htm&Title=8&DocType=ARS


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/00202.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/8/00291.htm&Title=8&DocType=ARS

[Its just me]

The only point I was making is that all sexual predators are not adults. I do not consider the age as a determinative factor. I look more to the fact as to whether or not the accused could understand and appreciate the consequences of his actions, meaning did the child understand that his conduct was wrong.

I'd have to hope the child knew what he was doing (if he did the killing) was wrong....Did he go as far to think about all that would be involved including but not limited to the fact that his Dad and his friend would be gone forever and he would spend the rest of his life in prison or face the death penalty. I personally don't believe an 8 year old is capable of thinking that far. fep

ETA: All my posts may not show that I have serious doubts if the child killed anyone.

[William Anthony]

I'd have to hope the child knew what he was doing (if he did the killing) was wrong....Did he go as far to think about all that would be involved including but not limited to the fact that his Dad and his friend would be gone forever and he would spend the rest of his life in prison or face the death penalty. I personally don't believe an 8 year old is capable of thinking that far. fep

I think that the question in my mind is not whether or not he thought about being found guilty and spending the rest of his life in prison or face the death penalty, as most who commit crimes for the first time may not understand the punishment involved, imho. I think that understanding the "consequences of conduct" did not encompass that degree of understanding. I think the more relevant questions would be whether the child knew that killing two people, if he did it, was wrong and that would result in the deaths of two people. I will now take another look at the Arizona statues I provided, because I found a portion of one of them relevant but I cannot remember the exact wording.

I have doubts that the child was the murderer and believe him innocent until proven guilty. However, I am considering other aspects, if he is found guilty or accepts a plea deal.

[Its just me]

Here is what I found on the competency of a juvenile under Arizona law.

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/8/00291-01.htm&Title=8&DocType=ARS


http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/00202.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/8/00291.htm&Title=8&DocType=ARS

snip from the last link:

2. "Incompetent" means a juvenile who does not have sufficient present ability to consult with the juvenile's lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding or who does not have a rational and factual understanding of the proceedings against the juvenile. Age alone does not render a person incompetent.
----------------------------------
I'll believe... this child can consult with his attorney and understand much of anything about a proceeding... when I see it. I'm thankful that it appears there is a good attorney representing him. This case should be handled outside a court room. fep

[susie31023]

I'd have to hope the child knew what he was doing (if he did the killing) was wrong....Did he go as far to think about all that would be involved including but not limited to the fact that his Dad and his friend would be gone forever and he would spend the rest of his life in prison or face the death penalty. I personally don't believe an 8 year old is capable of thinking that far. fep


Excellent post feppy. I have a hard time equating a sexual predator to a child who just murders. Children always have a reason[ no matter how flawed] for their actions. Most will strike out in anger not even thinking of the consequences. IF he did this and I have yet to be convinced that he did, there was a reason. Can he be rehabilitated? No one can say right now. All we can do is pray this child has someone on his side to make absolutely sure he has/ will be taken care of. I wonder where his safety net was. JMO

Shar,I'm so glad your son was alright:rose:. Kids especially little boys are daredevils, and aren't really able to understand some of their actions. My son has had so many concussions it is frightening, I can't begin to tell you how many times we were scared to death. I thank God :rose:that he has lived through his "adventures"[ yes he is grown, LOL].

[William Anthony]

Yes, that was one of the statements I had considered and here is another one.

"A. If a statute defining an offense prescribes a culpable mental state that is sufficient for commission of the offense without distinguishing among the elements of such offense, the prescribed mental state shall apply to each such element unless a contrary legislative purpose plainly appears."

[William Anthony]

Excellent post feppy. I have a hard time equating a sexual predator to a child who just murders. Children always have a reason[ no matter how flawed] for their actions. Most will strike out in anger not even thinking of the consequences. IF he did this and I have yet to be convinced that he did, there was a reason. Can he be rehabilitated? No one can say right now. All we can do is pray this child has someone on his side to make absolutely sure he has/ will be taken care of. I wonder where his safety net was. JMO

Shar,I'm so glad your son was alright:rose:. Kids especially little boys are daredevils, and aren't really able to understand some of their actions. My son has had so many concussions it is frightening, I can't begin to tell you how many times we were scared to death. I thank God :rose:that he has lived through his "adventures"[ yes he is grown, LOL].

My point was that sexual predators, some children, murder along with their attacks. While there may have been a reason for the child to strike out in anger, at the age of eight, I knew that it was not right to kill someone else. I have had many school and neighborhood fights and some when I was an adult. Luckily for me, I knew when I had the other person beaten and they did me. To me there is a vast difference from being a daredevil, risking your own life, and murdering two others, while taking time to reload a gun, if that is true. Unfortunately, there are those who kill for no apparent reason, whether it be animals or animals of the human variety. The only justification that I see for murder is in defense of self or another.

Here is a what I found on second degree murder in Arizona from a link. I will look further to see the intent factor.

"second-degree murder is a class 1 felony, which, for a first time offender is a prison term in a range from 10 years to 22 years. If the State can show that you or your loved one intentionally or knowingly caused the death of another person, or recklessly caused the death of another or if the criminal negligence caused the death of another, the State will charge this crime or another serious crime. Homicides range from a Class 4 felony up to a Class 1 felony punishable by a death sentence or life imprisonment without parole"

[William Anthony]

Why would any poster equate this case with that of a sexual predator? Better he should provide some facts that can be discussed.

I think you misunderstand. I was offering an observation on the rate of recitivism as it pertains to violent criminals, if this child is one, and whether or not rehabilitation would work. I thought that you were actively seeking information on the case. I am actively seeking information on issues that might be involved in the case and taken into consideration in determining how to deal with the child. We were having an intelligent and civil discussion, imho, about some of those issues. Thank you for your participation in this discussion.

[William Anthony]

snip from the last link:

2. "Incompetent" means a juvenile who does not have sufficient present ability to consult with the juvenile's lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding or who does not have a rational and factual understanding of the proceedings against the juvenile. Age alone does not render a person incompetent.
----------------------------------
I'll believe... this child can consult with his attorney and understand much of anything about a proceeding... when I see it. I'm thankful that it appears there is a good attorney representing him. This case should be handled outside a court room. fep

Here is another link, while not specifically addressing the intent factor in a second degree murder charge in Arizona, which may be the charge against the child, it does imply that all the prosecution needs to show is general intent. I am still of the opinion that the child is not guilty but the lesser showing may be what the prosecution opts for in the event of a trial.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=nc&vol=1997\supreme0411\&invol=hunt

[William Anthony]

snip from the last link:

2. "Incompetent" means a juvenile who does not have sufficient present ability to consult with the juvenile's lawyer with a reasonable degree of rational understanding or who does not have a rational and factual understanding of the proceedings against the juvenile. Age alone does not render a person incompetent.
----------------------------------
I'll believe... this child can consult with his attorney and understand much of anything about a proceeding... when I see it. I'm thankful that it appears there is a good attorney representing him. This case should be handled outside a court room. fep

Thank you. This is what I was saying, "Age alone does not render a person incompetent." I have not heard the entire alleged confession, so I think it is premature at this time to say whether or not the child is competent in regard to the other factors but it is not premature, imho, to consider what might happen, if he is deemed competent or incompetent. I think that we are all interested in having the best results for all involved.

[martin II]

I think that most state law requires a parent or lawyer be present when a child is questioned by le. Therefore the "confession" is void.

I remember a case where 3-4 under age children were questioned without a parent or lawyer. le told them they needed to confess in order for everything to be ok so they could go home. They confessed to what le said had happened. All were convicted.
Years later a review of the case showed that each kid gave a different version of the Confession details and they were questioned without a parent or lawyer.

All were released.Shortly after DNA proved another person had commited the crime.

[William Anthony]

I think that most state law requires a parent or lawyer be present when a child is questioned by le. Therefore the "confession" is void.

I remember a case where 3-4 under age children were questioned without a parent or lawyer. le told them they needed to confess in order for everything to be ok so they could go home. They confessed to what le said had happened. All were convicted.
Years later a review of the case showed that each kid gave a different version of the Confession details and they were questioned without a parent or lawyer.

All were released.Shortly after DNA proved another person had commited the crime.

I would agree based on what we heard that the confession is inadmissible. However, I would think that any competent lawyer would have moved at the proper time to have it dismissed, which means to me that there must be other evidence that causes the child to be held in custody.

[William Anthony]

Here is a very interesting link and I do not know whether it was previously posted but it does answer some questions about the evidence other than the alleged confession.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

[Its just me]

Thank you. This is what I was saying, "Age alone does not render a person incompetent." I have not heard the entire alleged confession, so I think it is premature at this time to say whether or not the child is competent in regard to the other factors but it is not premature, imho, to consider what might happen, if he is deemed competent or incompetent. I think that we are all interested in having the best results for all involved.

I'm firm on what I believe an 8 year old is capable of knowing and understanding. Just about anything discussed about the actual case is premature at this time imhoo because I don't know if the child is guilty of anything so I've decided to limit giving my opinions. As I've stated before the case is heart touching so I am following to see what if any news is released and I include the case and child in my prayers. fep

[William Anthony]

I'm firm on what I believe an 8 year old is capable of knowing and understanding. Just about anything discussed about the actual case is premature at this time imhoo because I don't know if the child is guilty of anything so I've decided to limit giving my opinions. As I've stated before the case is heart touching so I am following to see what if any news is released and I include the case and child in my prayers. fep

I understand your firmness of belief and was simply speaking from my experiences. I also knew a child, who was eight or nine, that was promoted to high school. I think that to determine whether a particular child is able to understand or is advanced beyond his years requires a look into the information. This is from the link I supplied above.

"After working through some procedural issues with the attorneys, superior court Judge Michael Rocca read the youngster his Miranda rights, putting the very specific legal verbiage into words the 8-year-old could understand. "The charges against you, as I've indicated, are very serious," Rocca told the boy. "There is a request that you be detained in the juvenile detention facility, down on Main Street, during the remainder of these proceedings. The hearing today is to determine whether or not it is reasonable to believe you did what you are charged with - not sufficient proof to hold you responsible, but reason to believe and be concerned that you have done what you are charged with." When Rocca asked the young defendant if he understood what he had just heard, the boy indicated he did."

It would appear that the child understood certain things that are happening, which indicates to me a certain degree of advanced understanding. At the present time the child is not guilty. I will pray for all those involved in this case, so that a just resolution can be rendered, removing as much emotion as possible from the determination but showing compassion, empathy and understanding to all that have some degree of standing in the case.

[William Anthony]

I also find these portions from the link I supplied very troubling.

"In talking to the boy's grandmother, he said he learned she had originally purchased the gun for her son, and he in turn gave it to his son. "She said (her grandson) knew how to use it." Rodriquez said he learned the Romero family members were hunters and had many guns in the home, mostly stored in the master bedroom."

I don't understand any parent giving an 8 year old child a gun.

"Hogle said several members of the Romans family arrived at the funeral home while he was there. He pulled a couple family members aside in an attempt to calm them down, and it was during that time that Romans' wife said her husband called her right after he got home from work. While discussing work and other topics with her husband, she told the officer she could hear the 8-year-old boy in the background yelling at her husband, "Tim, I need you to come in here, something's wrong with dad. Tim, come in the house, something's wrong." Hogel said Ms. Romans insisted the officers talk to the youngster - "He knows something; he was there when something bad happened to my husband. Make sure that they talk to him about this." Ms. Romans said the last thing her husband said to her was that the Romero youngster said something was wrong and he needed to go look into it."

If what Ms. Romans said is true, then it shows a degree of calculation and premeditation on the part of the child, imho. However, if what Ms. Romans said is untrue, then it requires LE to look further into her statement, imho. I guess the question in my mind is how Mr. Romans did not hear a gunshot and why Ms. Romans did not hear one, if she could hear the child yelling in the background.

[SaraSidle]

okay I have learned a whole lot more on this case since I read up tonight. I assumed from the news that the 9 year old did the shooting. Are we not sure about whether he did the shooting? please help me catch up

[William Anthony]

okay I have learned a whole lot more on this case since I read up tonight. I assumed from the news that the 9 year old did the shooting. Are we not sure about whether he did the shooting? please help me catch up

I believe that the child has the presumption of innocence and, aside from that, I believe there are questions about the case, if what has been reported is true. There have been some questions about the Constitutionality of the child's confession. From the link that I supplied yesterday, which reading back I saw had previously been supplied, I am not sure that the Constitutional argument is applicable, since the child was not in custody, if what LE claims is true. However, I do believe that once the child allegedly blurted out a confession he should have been read his Miranda rights, and I do not believe LE's story about the confession.

I also believe that Mr. Romans was familiar enough with the sounds of gunshots, since he went hunting on a regular basis, to know when he heard one. I wonder where he was that he did not hear one. I have questions about Ms. Romans' story, which I have posted. I no longer know, if it is allowed to speculate about the family, so I ask you to read a post with a link on the second page about Ms. Romero. The thing that also troubles me, if Ms. Romans' story is true, is that the murders show a cold, calculated, premeditated murder. I assume that investigations into the time of death, since it can only be so specific, did not rule the child out as the killer, as from what I read the child went to school that day. Because the child is a juvenile, we may never know the answers to these questions, depending on how the court decides to handle the child.

[William Anthony]

This is where LE's story comes into play as to the Constitutionality of the alleged confession.

"A minor is entitled to have his/her Miranda rights read to them as would an adult. If you are being detained (meaning you reasonably don’t feel you are free to leave) by the police and are suspected of committing a criminal offense, the police should inform you of your Miranda rights before questioning you."

At some point soon after LE questioned the child as to what he saw, the child allegedly blurted out that he had killed them, if what LE is claiming is true, he should have been read his Miranda rights or the interview stopped until such time as the child had representation, imho. Can the police retain the incriminating statements given by the child, meaning the statement saying he did the murders, because he was not technically a suspect at that time, or would we consider an 8 year old, talking to LE and being questioned about a crime when the child was participating in an investigation and not a suspect, as feeling as though he was not entitled to leave? I think that this is what the court will have to sort out and it is interesting that the Miranda rights originated from an Arizona case.

[William Anthony]

This is from the link I supplied and since to my knowledge the child is still being held in custody I would tend to believe the statements in the link.

"In the Friday detention hearing, Roca ruled that probable cause existed to believe the boy committed the crimes he is charged with. He also ruled that the boy remain in the detention facility pending further proceedings."

The question remains however, if LE had probable cause to acquire the search warrant at the time it was requested and did they lawfully acquire that probable cause. I don't know if the judge considered how the alleged confession was obtained or the search warrant or whether his decision was based on other information obtained during the investigation. I don't know, if LE is showing a reckless disregard for the truth or not. It appears that this judge did not feel they were.

[SaraSidle]

thank you both very much for the information. I hope the boy is receiving mental help at this time. this is so sad and hard for me to believe. I hope he is not taking the fall for someone else. IMO

[Its just me]

Expert: Boy, 9, Not Competent To Stand Trial

POSTED: 12:38 pm MST December 30, 2008
UPDATED: 4:01 pm MST December 30, 2008

Brewer has questioned the validity of the so-called confession in which the boy admitted to firing at least two shots at each of the men. The boy wasn't read his rights and wasn't represented by an attorney or parent, and Brewer said officers lied to the boy, threatened him and implied promises of leniency to get him to confess.
"We're protecting his rights, and if the police violated those, we're going to call them to the mat," he said.



So, 2 days and hopefully there will be more news about the case.

Thanks JB for the update. I feel Brewer is handling the case well...to bad I can't say the same about the LE officers. fep

[William Anthony]

The issue of competency may come down to a battle of the experts.

[William Anthony]

According to the statement by a judge, there was probable cause to believe that the child committed the murders. Under those circumstances, if true, I think that it would be arduous to show that the judge acted from a bias due to a personal relationship when he signed the search warrant. I don't think that there is anything untoward in the signing, as this is the population of St. John's.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/239931

[susie31023]

Brewer is doing a very good job defending his client. I wonder what the relationship between Romero, the child and the magistrate who signed the search warrant is? I'm assuming this must have something to do with why Brewer wants the evidence obtained by that search warrant disallowed.
Anyway, in a few days the next hearing will hopefully shed a little more light.

I agree with everything you have posted here JB. I have serious problems with how LE has handled this child. IF he is guilty then I hope there will be help for him but IF he isn't then, I sincerely pray that his lawyers mop the floor with the LE in this case. Someone, whoever that was that decided to interrogate an 8 year old child without an adult present should in my opinion,lose their job due to their actions. There can be no excuses for what they did whether they thought him guilty or innocent...

[susie31023]

Absolutely. It's interesting that the original DA Candelaria was up for re-election at the time the murders occurred. He lost the election and has been replaced by Carlyon who appears to be much more reasonable and level -headed. I've said all along there is no way that so-called 'confession' would ever be allowed to be presented in open court. And even if by some strange method it was, there'd be an apellant court just sitting there, waiting to throw it out.

Exactly JB. No one in their right mind would allow such a confession in for an adult let alone an 8 year old child. I don't know if he did do this or not but I do know that it wasn't handled as it should have been from the start. If he's guilty then fine punish him but make sure it is done fairly and legally...

[William Anthony]

According to the link I posted, the child was not a suspect and was just being questioned as to what he saw, when allegedly he confessed. I think under those circumstances that statement may be allowed in but it is hard to say definitively without hearing the tapes and a determination as to the child's ability to know that he was not being detained by LE at the time.

[susie31023]

Even If they just wanted to know what he had seen there should have been an adult with him before they asked him anything. Their first concern should have been "lets get someone here for the child and then we can see what he has to say." To say if the child knew whether he was being detained by LE is to try and apply adult logic to a child's logic. Which in my opinion can't be done. Children don't think in the way adults do so how in the world would he be able to know whether he was being held for questioning or not? I truly think this is a tragic case, yet I have yet to see any legal standing for the way LE conducted themselves. I find it hard to believe that any court would allow such behavior by any law enforcement agency.

I also would like to point out the phone call from the wife/girlfriend in which she said the boarder told her something was wrong to be very suspicious. She could hear the child say come here yet she never heard a gunshot? No way am I going to believe that. Anyone who has ever heard a gunshot knows that it is much louder than a childs voice. Something is very very wrong here whether this child is guilty or not. In my opinion....

[William Anthony]

Even If they just wanted to know what he had seen there should have been an adult with him before they asked him anything. Their first concern should have been "lets get someone here for the child and then we can see what he has to say." To say if the child knew whether he was being detained by LE is to try and apply adult logic to a child's logic. Which in my opinion can't be done. Children don't think in the way adults do so how in the world would he be able to know whether he was being held for questioning or not? I truly think this is a tragic case, yet I have yet to see any legal standing for the way LE conducted themselves. I find it hard to believe that any court would allow such behavior by any law enforcement agency.

I also would like to point out the phone call from the wife/girlfriend in which she said the boarder told her something was wrong to be very suspicious. She could hear the child say come here yet she never heard a gunshot? No way am I going to believe that. Anyone who has ever heard a gunshot knows that it is much louder than a childs voice. Something is very very wrong here whether this child is guilty or not. In my opinion....

We may not always agree with the way LE conducts themselves but I do think that we expect them to investigate crimes and, the law is clear as to when statements can and cannot be legally made. The question then becomes what the courts decide is legal.

I don't know whether or no Ms. Romans was on the phone at the time her husband was murdered.

[susie31023]

I agree with that. I do on the other hand know that children should always have an adult present when questioned about any crime. Whether they were involved or not. I have a lot of respect for LE. What I don't respect is the decision they made in this case. I do feel this childs attorney will be more than capable of finding out exactly what LE did and didn't do legally. That is my concern here. An 8 year old does not have the ability to fully understand the ramifications of what may be held against him. Therefore we have [ if no family is available] child advocates who can be called in to monitor any questioning of the child. As I have said IF he is guilty then he should have punishment but to allow the confession in would be grounds for an appeal in my opinion...

[William Anthony]

http://criminal-law.lawyers.com/ask-a-lawyer/Can-Police-Question-a-Juvenile-Without-a-Parent-or-Guardian-PresentU-7445.html

“Laws concerning police questioning of juveniles vary from state to state. The Supreme Court has held that juveniles who are arrested, like adults, must be given their Miranda rights. It has not held that juveniles can only be questioned in the presence of their parent or guardian.”

[susie31023]

While it is true that there are miranda laws there are also laws that require an adult to be present to ensure that 1. The child is ok physically, 2. That the child understands what is being asked of them. and 3. Anything they learn can be admitted into evidence. Many states do have different laws on the books that vary with each state.

If you don't my asking a question, and please just ignore the question if you would rather not answer. Everything I have read by you leads one to believe that you would be very much against this conduct of LE, so why do you feel in this case as in no others that I've seen do you play the devils advocate? I would think being interested in Law and with your knowledge that it would be a case you would find difficult to agree with LE on..Again I'm not saying whether he is guilty or innocent, I am saying that LE behaved irresponsible in this case. I'm not trying to argue so please don't take it as such..I just have some knowledge of kids and feel in this case there is much more to be learned concerning what happened and the conduct of LE...

It all may be a moot point since one psychiatrist has said he is not competent to stand trial. I'm still waiting on the other one to announce his findings.

[William Anthony]

I simply posted a link that allows for the boy to be questioned without an adult around. It is my respect for the law that allows me to question LE's conduct and find anything that supports or goes against their conduct.

I agree that there is much to learn about LE's conduct in this case. I truly believe that, if a child is arrested that he has a right to have someone present during the questioning, but this child was not at the time he was questioned, according to LE and was not a suspect. I am simply stating the hurdle that the defense must overcome on appeal, imho. We all sometimes view LE's conduct differently based on our personal feelings-to that I will agree.

[susie31023]

I agree. Our perspective comes from our own personal feelings. I have the utmost respect for the laws of our nation and for the ones who uphold it. Yet something about this case just doesn't come across as being handled correctly. I think perhaps if this child were older it wouldn't bother me as much. But an 8 year old in anyones eyes is still a child and should have been treated differently than he was.

One thing that really bothers me is IF they didn't suspect him and were only trying to find out what he knew then why wasn't there a child psychologist brought in to help him deal with the murder of his father? After all a death is tragic but for him to have possibly witnessed his own fathers murder seems to scream that they would have needed to calm him down and thereby be assured that he was ok physically as well as mentally. You wouldn't ordinarily just start asking questions because of the trauma he had just been through. after all even when an officer shoots someone a psychologist is brought in to help them cope with the stress and trauma. So why act differently in this case? Just makes me wonder what their real intentions were.

[sharlock]

Brewer is doing a very good job defending his client. I wonder what the relationship between Romero, the child and the magistrate who signed the search warrant is? I'm assuming this must have something to do with why Brewer wants the evidence obtained by that search warrant disallowed.
Anyway, in a few days the next hearing will hopefully shed a little more light.
They were probably hunting buddies.

[sharlock]

According to the link I posted, the child was not a suspect and was just being questioned as to what he saw, when allegedly he confessed. I think under those circumstances that statement may be allowed in but it is hard to say definitively without hearing the tapes and a determination as to the child's ability to know that he was not being detained by LE at the time.
If you look back on the thread you will be aqble to view those very tapes. For this interrogation to be legal they NEEDED the child to be represented because they did most definitely treat him like a suspect for a large portion of the tape and he also must have felt like he could leave the interogation at anytime which he could not possibly have felt; he was sitting there with 2 cops wearing guns and he had absolutley nowhere he could goat the time, even his Mum wasn't in town at that point and interestingly his stepmum had not gone to him even though initially they did not suspect the child supposedly.

[William Anthony]

I agree. Our perspective comes from our own personal feelings. I have the utmost respect for the laws of our nation and for the ones who uphold it. Yet something about this case just doesn't come across as being handled correctly. I think perhaps if this child were older it wouldn't bother me as much. But an 8 year old in anyones eyes is still a child and should have been treated differently than he was.

One thing that really bothers me is IF they didn't suspect him and were only trying to find out what he knew then why wasn't there a child psychologist brought in to help him deal with the murder of his father? After all a death is tragic but for him to have possibly witnessed his own fathers murder seems to scream that they would have needed to calm him down and thereby be assured that he was ok physically as well as mentally. You wouldn't ordinarily just start asking questions because of the trauma he had just been through. after all even when an officer shoots someone a psychologist is brought in to help them cope with the stress and trauma. So why act differently in this case? Just makes me wonder what their real intentions were.

I don't think that we can automatically assume that he was a suspect as they were told and could have possibly believed he was at school at the time of the murders. I agree that LE may not have handled the case correctly and your post seems to indicate you believe that they were acting in a manner above being untoward, meaning they did something illegal. I think that is the question. Although LE may act in a manner untoward, the questions the court will be called upon to answer is whether their conduct was illegal and the jury, if there is a trial, will undoubtedly address the issue of who is to be believed.

There is no doubt that an officer may seek psychological help when he has killed someone and I agree that this child will need some, if he did the murders and simply because of what he saw, if he did not do the murders. As I have said, the court is in the unenviable position of balancing the rights of society against this child's rights if he did the murders or in other words, given the circumstances which weighs heaviest, the protection of society or the protection of the individual, albeit a child.

[William Anthony]

If you look back on the thread you will be aqble to view those very tapes. For this interrogation to be legal they NEEDED the child to be represented because they did most definitely treat him like a suspect for a large portion of the tape and he also must have felt like he could leave the interogation at anytime which he could not possibly have felt; he was sitting there with 2 cops wearing guns and he had absolutley nowhere he could goat the time, even his Mum wasn't in town at that point and interestingly his stepmum had not gone to him even though initially they did not suspect the child supposedly.

Thanks, and I will look back.

[William Anthony]

Herein lies that crux of the problem.

http://www.lotsofessays.com/viewpaper/1687615.html

“They want juvenile crime and violence deterred by any means necessary, including adult treatment for the juvenile who commits an adult crime. A growing number of people are dissatisfied with a juvenile justice system that treats the violent crimes, including murder, by juveniles so lightly.”

[Its just me]

If the decision of this case would mean that society would have only “one” murderer (if the child is guilty) walking among us I would be more concerned about society but we all live among murderers, sex offenders, and all kind of thugs. Some are set free by a jury. At this point it’s not known if the child is guilty much less if he will be harm to the society or not…. nor is it known if he can be rehabilitated if he is guilty. The child should be handled as a child and I expect the case to be decided by a judge and we will never know much of the details…or I hope that is the case. fep

[William Anthony]

Because society is already in danger does not mean we need to add to that danger, if the child is guilty, imho. This child may be set free by a jury, if there is a trial and if he did or did not do it. An informed society is an educated one, imho. I would ask for a national registry of those convicted of murders as there is with those convicted of sex crimes. The entire rationalization of crimes is to protect society from conduct that is unacceptable.

[Its just me]

Because society is already in danger does not mean we need to add to that danger, if the child is guilty, imho. This child may be set free by a jury, if there is a trial and if he did or did not do it. An informed society is an educated one, imho. I would ask for a national registry of those convicted of murders as there is with those convicted of sex crimes. The entire rationalization of crimes is to protect society from conduct that is unacceptable.

I don't feel the child poses any danger to society at this time. I sure would not mind being the one provide the love he needs. Society has about as many opinions as it does people but I believe in and try to serve a God that is all knowing and His Book (the bible) is full of His compassion for little children....and this boy is a little child….not an adult nor a juvenile with in the age most statistics are taken. Because it is such an unordinary case I have to trust and ask God to guide those in charge to do what is best. I don't know but I doubt anyone here does either. fep

[William Anthony]

The Bible is a story of the greatest love the world has known. It teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy love thy self and to forgive those that have trespassed against you. However, mankind has sought to impose it owns rules of conduct and the Bible says, give unto Cesar what it Cesar's and give unto God what is God's. While we may shower the child with the love of God it is not against His will for the child to pay his dues to Cesar. The Bible also teaches us to watch as well as pray for there are those not inclined to follow God's or man's law. I think this case calls for the wisdom of Solomon.

[Its just me]

The Bible is a story of the greatest love the world has known. It teaches us to love thy neighbor as thy love thy self and to forgive those that have trespassed against you. However, mankind has sought to impose it owns rules of conduct and the Bible says, give unto Cesar what it Cesar's and give unto God what is God's. While we may shower the child with the love of God it is not against His will for the child to pay his dues to Cesar. The Bible also teaches us to watch as well as pray for there are those not inclined to follow God's or man's law. I think this case calls for the wisdom of Solomon.

I think that is where most of us err....we think we have the wisdom of Solomon is some instances. William the child is a child and does not come close to the catagory you try to put him in...but that is my opinion and may be far from what Solomon would have said. That is why I trust God.

When Jesus made the statement to the Pharisees to render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's...he saw their wickedness and called them hypocrites for trying to tempt him. The same day along came the Sadducees with stupid questions conerning the resurrection and Jesus told them they err because of not knowing the scriptures or the power of God. When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had put the Sadducees to silence a lawyer among them asked him the tempting question "Which is the greatest commandment in the law?". Jesus said (Matthew 22) Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


I love this little boy as my self and I'm not about to throw him under the bus and I know the power of God. fep

[William Anthony]

I think that is where most of us err....we think we have the wisdom of Solomon is some instances. William the child is a child and does not come close to the catagory you try to put him in...but that is my opinion and may be far from what Solomon would have said. That is why I trust God.

When Jesus made the statement to the Pharisees to render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's...he saw their wickedness and called them hypocrites for trying to tempt him. The same day along came the Sadducees with stupid questions conerning the resurrection and Jesus told them they err because of not knowing the scriptures or the power of God. When the Pharisees heard that Jesus had put the Sadducees to silence a lawyer among them asked him the tempting question "Which is the greatest commandment in the law?". Jesus said (Matthew 22) Thou shalt love the Lord they God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. The second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


I love this little boy as my self and I'm not about to throw him under the bus and I know the power of God. fep

I have not said that anyone among us is endowed with the wisdom of Solomon. I meant that it would take someone of that caliber to decide this case properly. I do not know of which law you speak. Perhaps, you speak of God's law. Man made law is of a different caliber and of different sources, although they may include religious or cannon law. The problem here is related to another scripture where it is said that the spirit is strong but the flesh is weak. We of the flesh need to feel that we are protected from acts of brutal violence or that there will be a deterrent for those so weak in spirit that they succumb to acts of brutal violence. We may simultaneously cherish and after life with God and a life here on earth surrounded with the companionship of those we love and feel that no one has the right to unlawfully take them away from us without suffering some form of punishment. This is why I said it would take the wisdom of Solomon in this case. A human will be called upon to determine the child's fate on this earth, while balancing the desires of society.

[susie31023]

While a human may decide the fate of this child may be true, it is beyond comprehension that this child should have been treated in the way that he was. IF he were an adult you would have lawyers/reporters the ACLU and any number of others calling his"confession" coerced/ nonadmissable/that his rights were violated/he wasn't read his "rights" etc. I will say again, I don't know IF he is guilty or not but I do know that many murderers are allowed to go free on far more evidence than what has been so far stated. I would be more afraid for Society in the hands of those than at the hands of an 8 or 9 year old child..

[Its just me]

I have not said that anyone among us is endowed with the wisdom of Solomon. I meant that it would take someone of that caliber to decide this case properly. I do not know of which law you speak. Perhaps, you speak of God's law. Man made law is of a different caliber and of different sources, although they may include religious or cannon law. The problem here is related to another scripture where it is said that the spirit is strong but the flesh is weak. We of the flesh need to feel that we are protected from acts of brutal violence or that there will be a deterrent for those so weak in spirit that they succumb to acts of brutal violence. We may simultaneously cherish and after life with God and a life here on earth surrounded with the companionship of those we love and feel that no one has the right to unlawfully take them away from us without suffering some form of punishment. This is why I said it would take the wisdom of Solomon in this case. A human will be called upon to determine the child's fate on this earth, while balancing the desires of society.

LOL...I didn't know I spoke of a law... only my opinion. Jesus is the one that said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"...Not I. My flesh is indeed weak but far from being so weak I'm afraid of what a child may do to me or an adult for that matter.... on the flip side my flesh is strong enough to see this case for what it is. Something you and I know little about except 2 people are dead, a "child" has been arrested, and it's in the hands of the courts. It would be nice for a court to consider my desire to handle the "child as a child" but that would create a mess because like I said before...there are about as many opinions in society as there are people so I'm hoping (praying) what decisions made will be by someone with common sense..... I seriously doubt there is anyone close to a Soloman around.

ETA: William you claim the child is innocent until proven guilty but it's pretty clear what you think should be done to the child. That's your right...I just disagree at this point in the case. fep

[SaraSidle]

LOL...I didn't know I spoke of a law... only my opinion. Jesus is the one that said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"...Not I. My flesh is indeed weak but far from being so weak I'm afraid of what a child may do to me or an adult for that matter.... on the flip side my flesh is strong enough to see this case for what it is. Something you and I know little about except 2 people are dead, a "child" has been arrested, and it's in the hands of the courts. It would be nice for a court to consider my desire to handle the "child as a child" but that would create a mess because like I said before...there are about as many opinions in society as there are people so I'm hoping (praying) what decisions made will be by someone with common sense..... I seriously doubt there is anyone close to a Soloman around.

ETA: William you claim the child is innocent until proven guilty but it's pretty clear what you think should be done to the child. That's your right...I just disagree at this point in the case. fep




LOL You will always be a Solomon to me fep.

[SaraSidle]

Seriously I agree with Suzie as usual and I am not so sure the boy did it. I mean shots to the front and back? sounds hinky to me. IMO

[William Anthony]

LOL...I didn't know I spoke of a law... only my opinion. Jesus is the one that said "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"...Not I. My flesh is indeed weak but far from being so weak I'm afraid of what a child may do to me or an adult for that matter.... on the flip side my flesh is strong enough to see this case for what it is. Something you and I know little about except 2 people are dead, a "child" has been arrested, and it's in the hands of the courts. It would be nice for a court to consider my desire to handle the "child as a child" but that would create a mess because like I said before...there are about as many opinions in society as there are people so I'm hoping (praying) what decisions made will be by someone with common sense..... I seriously doubt there is anyone close to a Soloman around.

ETA: William you claim the child is innocent until proven guilty but it's pretty clear what you think should be done to the child. That's your right...I just disagree at this point in the case. fep

Perhaps, I should have said the law of which your post speaks. I doubt that the two victims thought they had anything to fear from a child, if he did the murders. You may be right that there is no one close to having the wisdom of Solomon. I guess we will have to rely on the wisdom of the court and precedent.

I don't know what should be done to the child and firmly believe that he is innocent until proven guilty and have serious questions about the incident that I would like to have answered. However, the discussion seems to be what should happen to the child in the event that he is brought to trial and, also, if he is found guilty or accepts a plea. There have been some posts about the Constitutionality of the alleged confession and I have answered my views as to what LE alleges, what the judge has thus far said, and what could be the possible ramifications. I think Jesus talked in parables, because he knew that incidents could be viewed in more than one way.

[William Anthony]

Seriously I agree with Suzie as usual and I am not so sure the boy did it. I mean shots to the front and back? sounds hinky to me. IMO

At this stage no one should be sure the boy did it.

[William Anthony]

Seriously I agree with Suzie as usual and I am not so sure the boy did it. I mean shots to the front and back? sounds hinky to me. IMO

Is it being said that there was more than one murder weapon used?

[SaraSidle]

Is it being said that there was more than one murder weapon used?

Makes me even more suspicious. Just a gut feeling but I have been doubtful since I have heard the case. I think other adults are involved. IMO

[William Anthony]

Makes me even more suspicious. Just a gut feeling but I have been doubtful since I have heard the case. I think other adults are involved. IMO

I also have some serious questions about this case and think that there is more to it than has been reported.

[SaraSidle]

I also have some serious questions about this case and think that there is more to it than has been reported.

definitely want to hear more info and evidence.......especially on mom IMO

[William Anthony]

definitely want to hear more info and evidence.......especially on mom IMO

I agree on wanting to hear more information and evidence. However, this is were the child's status as a juvenile may preclude us from filling our desires, depending on the court. Trutv is/was showing a murder case in which the defendant is a juvenile. I haven't been able to follow it but he is accused of murdering his brother in law. His sister was also in an orange jump suit and from the little I did hear she allegedly had some type of influence over her brother. I have heard of cases where adults get juveniles to commit crimes, because the court is normally more lenient, with juvenile offenders.

[William Anthony]

http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=104&sid=1513427

[Its just me]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2423290,00.html

'Something led up to this'
09/11/2008 09:40 - (SA)
http://www.news24.com/News24v2/Images/tsp.gifhttp://www.news24.com/News24v2/Images/tsp.gif


St Johns, Arizona - A man who police believe was shot and killed by his eight-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use a rifle, the clergyman said on Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns, said the Very Reverend John Paul Sauter of St Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a .22-calibre rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple but said on Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
'Not spur of the moment'
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," Sauter said.
The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said. Police are looking into whether he might have been abused.
"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," he said Saturday. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's eight years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."
The boy's father and stepmother had gotten married in September, said Sauter, who presided over the wedding.
Romero had full custody of the child. The boy's mother had visited St Johns from Mississippi the previous weekend and returned to Arizona after the shootings, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.
On Friday, a judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone eight or older.
The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, Carlyon said.
"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."
In a sign of the emotional and legal complexities of the case, police are pushing to have the boy tried as an adult even as they investigate possible abuse, Melnick said. If convicted as a minor, the boy could be sent to juvenile detention until he turns 18.
"We're going to use every avenue of the law that's available to us, but we're also looking at the human side," he said.
The boy's lawyer, Benjamin Brewer, said his client is generally in good spirits.
"He's scared," he said. "He's trying to be tough, but he's scared."
Police are also investigating whether there were any domestic violence calls to the Romero home in the past, Melnick said.
Officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting Wednesday in St Johns, which has a population of about 4 000 northeast of Phoenix. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.
Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a power plant near St Johns.
The boy went to a neighbour's house and said he "believed that his father was dead," Carlyon said. Melnick said police got a confession, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights. FBI statistics show instances of children younger than 11 committing homicides are very rare.

[Its just me]

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_2423199,00.html


'It tugs at the heart strings'
08/11/2008 22:40 - (SA)
http://www.news24.com/News24v2/Images/tsp.gifhttp://www.news24.com/News24v2/Images/tsp.gif

Flagstaff, Arizona - It's a crime that police officers in a small eastern Arizona community can hardly fathom yet have to deal with: an eight-year-old charged in the fatal shootings of his father and another man.
"Who would think an eight-year-old kid could kill two adults?" St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said on Friday.
The killings on Wednesday sent shock waves through St Johns, a community of about 4 000 people. The boy had no disciplinary record at school, and there was no indication he had any problems at home, prosecutors said.
"It was such a tragedy," said the boy's defence attorney, Benjamin Brewer. "You have two people dead; you have an eight-year-old in jail. It tugs at the heart strings. It's a shocker, no doubt about it."
On Friday, a judge determined there was probable cause to show that the boy fatally shot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, with a .22-caliber rifle. The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone eight or older.
Melnick said the boy didn't act on the "spur of the moment", though he didn't elaborate on what the motive might have been.
Melnick said officers arrived at Romero's home within minutes of the shooting on Wednesday. They found one victim just outside the front door and the other dead in an upstairs room.
Romans had been renting a room at the Romero house, prosecutors said. Both men were employees of a construction company working at a Salt River Project power plant near St. Johns, which is about 275km northeast of Phoenix.
The boy went to a neighbour's house and said he "believed that his father was dead", said Apache County attorney Brad Carlyon.
Melnick said police obtained a confession from the boy, but Brewer said police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.
"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an eight-year-old kid."
A judge ordered a psychological evaluation of the boy, who was being held at the Apache County juvenile detention centre.
Prosecutors aren't sure where the case is headed, Carlyon said.
"There's a ton of factors to be considered and weighed, including the juvenile's age," he said. "The counter balance against that, the acts that he apparently committed." Carlyon said the boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services. "He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

[SaraSidle]

I agree on wanting to hear more information and evidence. However, this is were the child's status as a juvenile may preclude us from filling our desires, depending on the court. Trutv is/was showing a murder case in which the defendant is a juvenile. I haven't been able to follow it but he is accused of murdering his brother in law. His sister was also in an orange jump suit and from the little I did hear she allegedly had some type of influence over her brother. I have heard of cases where adults get juveniles to commit crimes, because the court is normally more lenient, with juvenile offenders.

ITA and I know what you are talking about. IMO

[William Anthony]

ITA and I know what you are talking about. IMO

I can not buy into the 1,000 spanking thing. I go back to visit the small town I was born in and have found that, although everyone knows everyone else's business it is not spoken about publicly but talked about behind closed doors. I think teachers, doctors or other children would have seen some signs of the abuse. I do believe that something was going on that caused the child to do this, if he did it.

[SaraSidle]

I can not buy into the 1,000 spanking thing. I go back to visit the small town I was born in and have found that, although everyone knows everyone else's business it is not spoken about publicly but talked about behind closed doors. I think teachers, doctors or other children would have seen some signs of the abuse. I do believe that something was going on that caused the child to do this, if he did it.

I have a friend who was brought up in a house of abuse by his father and he owned the same type of weapon for hunting. I asked him if this was something he could possible even entertain in his mind at that age and he said absolutely not. I realize that everyone is different and it is still possible that the 8 yr old did it but still would like to know more and as you posted earlier that may never happen. I just hope he is getting help of some kind guilty or not. IMO

[William Anthony]

I have a friend who was brought up in a house of abuse by his father and he owned the same type of weapon for hunting. I asked him if this was something he could possible even entertain in his mind at that age and he said absolutely not. I realize that everyone is different and it is still possible that the 8 yr old did it but still would like to know more and as you posted earlier that may never happen. I just hope he is getting help of some kind guilty or not. IMO

I totally agree.

[SaraSidle]

For anyone who wants to discuss the facts in this case.

The videotaped 'confession' has been thrown out by Judge Roca as inadmissible. It should never have been done. Totally inexcusable.

There's a fairly large drug connection to this case that needs to be discussed. Tim Romans, the child's father, had a bullet hole in his truck and a concealed weapon in his glove box. Concealed weapons are illegal in Az.
He had a previous drug conviction. His sister pled guilty to a drugs charge in Flagstaff in '04. Both of them, from what I can gather, had dealings in 'meth'. Romans, apparently, came to St John's with a rep as being involved in meth. Apache County is, apparently, the 2nd largest meth area in Az.

So, let's go to the shootings. Romero was shot in the back going up the stairs. His killer went over his body, upstairs searching for whatever, then comes back down the stairs and shoots him another 2 times in the head.
Does anyone get the idea of execution style?

And what of the 8 year old? The cops started 'real' investigating 18 hours after the crime. 19 hours after the crime they were 'interviewing' the child.

Well, sure, there are 2 dead men in the house. Shot a total of 9 times. There's an 8 year old. He must have done it. One of the cops who 'interviewed' the child has been promoted. Put in for the promotion before all of this happened. I reckon she'll need to do a better job than this.

Nice job Mr Bell

[sharlock]

For anyone who wants to discuss the facts in this case.

The videotaped 'confession' has been thrown out by Judge Roca as inadmissible. It should never have been done. Totally inexcusable.

There's a fairly large drug connection to this case that needs to be discussed. Tim Romans, the child's father, had a bullet hole in his truck and a concealed weapon in his glove box. Concealed weapons are illegal in Az.
He had a previous drug conviction. His sister pled guilty to a drugs charge in Flagstaff in '04. Both of them, from what I can gather, had dealings in 'meth'. Romans, apparently, came to St John's with a rep as being involved in meth. Apache County is, apparently, the 2nd largest meth area in Az.

So, let's go to the shootings. Romero was shot in the back going up the stairs. His killer went over his body, upstairs searching for whatever, then comes back down the stairs and shoots him another 2 times in the head.
Does anyone get the idea of execution style?

And what of the 8 year old? The cops started 'real' investigating 18 hours after the crime. 19 hours after the crime they were 'interviewing' the child.

Well, sure, there are 2 dead men in the house. Shot a total of 9 times. There's an 8 year old. He must have done it. One of the cops who 'interviewed' the child has been promoted. Put in for the promotion before all of this happened. I reckon she'll need to do a better job than this.
Wow thankyou JB, where did this come from? Very interesting indeed.

[sharlock]

Hey Sara. Lots of people are standing up for the child. About time. There's a load more c*** about the murder weapon. It sure wasn't the Chipmunk gun LE first touted. There has to be drugs involved. Romero was paying $50 a week for his room. Wow, how cheap is that? He had $500 in his wallet when he died. 5 $100 bills. Doesn't add up (excuse the pun).
Hmmm.. I wonder if Romero was a cook? I kind of remember somewhere it being mentioned that there was more than one type of gun used. My god, if they have put that child into custody after he has been exposed to the worst shock in his life if he is totally innocent of any wrongdoing I will be ropeable. They may have very well scarred this child for life (as if he didn't already have enough to deal with.:flamemad:

[William Anthony]

Since none of us know the facts of this case, let's discuss the information that has been leaked. There seems to be some contradictory information from the leaks. It is my understanding that the boy claimed both victims were dead when he arrived home from school. However, according to Ms. Romans she was talking to her husband on the phone when the boy called him into the house. I think it is far too early to blame the victims in this case as there has been no report that drugs were found in their possession, on the premises or in their system. I think we can appreciate the effect that blaming the victims may have without evidence or information. I have not heard that there were two guns used and, if anyone can supply that information, it would be greatly appreciated.

[William Anthony]

The child's father was Romero not Romans, according to my understanding.

[sharlock]

Since none of us know the facts of this case, let's discuss the information that has been leaked. There seems to be some contradictory information from the leaks. It is my understanding that the boy claimed both victims were dead when he arrived home from school. However, according to Ms. Romans she was talking to her husband on the phone when the boy called him into the house. I think it is far too early to blame the victims in this case as there has been no report that drugs were found in their possession, on the premises or in their system. I think we can appreciate the effect that blaming the victims may have without evidence or information. I have not heard that there were two guns used and, if anyone can supply that information, it would be greatly appreciated.
As you can appreciate William we have been speculating pretty much this whole thread because the only real detailed info we had was from an interogation that should be thrown out by the courts. All other info was scant and then a lid was put on the case to keep more info from being released.
I would have to say that in my mind the child too could very well be a victim and yet he has been compared to some very unsavoury types of crims in this thread. Even if the men who were shot were involved in drugs it would not mean that they were to blame for their deaths. Noone deserves to be gunned down the way they were. I believe that it would mean that the police should have done a better job of investigating the circumstances however. It could also mean that if the boy was responsible there were mitigating factors so I see no harm in discuussing the possibility. Not only has there been no mention of anything being found on them or not on them for that matter as far as I am aware there is no mention of anything to do with this case officially much at all. None the less I am curious. I know I mentioned that I was unsure about the 2 guns and was hoping someone might remember if this was the case.
Have a nice day:D

[William Anthony]

As you can appreciate William we have been speculating pretty much this whole thread because the only real detailed info we had was from an interogation that should be thrown out by the courts. All other info was scant and then a lid was put on the case to keep more info from being released.
I would have to say that in my mind the child too could very well be a victim and yet he has been compared to some very unsavoury types of crims in this thread. Even if the men who were shot were involved in drugs it would not mean that they were to blame for their deaths. Noone deserves to be gunned down the way they were. I believe that it would mean that the police should have done a better job of investigating the circumstances however. It could also mean that if the boy was responsible there were mitigating factors so I see no harm in discuussing the possibility. Not only has there been no mention of anything being found on them or not on them for that matter as far as I am aware there is no mention of anything to do with this case officially much at all. None the less I am curious. I know I mentioned that I was unsure about the 2 guns and was hoping someone might remember if this was the case.
Have a nice day:D

It is my understanding that the alleged confession has been thrown out, other than if the boy takes the stand to recant the confession. This will be very interesting, imho, because if the boy does take the stand to say he did not kill them, I wonder if he would have opened the door.

I was referring to the suggestion or speculation that the murders were done execution style in connection with the alleged drug possession or use. I am unfamiliar with the extent of the LE's investigation. However, as you may know, when LE has concluded that they have the right person, they are unlikely to investigate further, only to gain evidence to convict who they believe the murderer to be.

I think anyone, who is accused of a crime and there is not enough sufficient evidence to support a conviction, is a victim. I also think that any type of murder, except done in self defense or the defense of others or protection of property is unsavory. I also asked the question about the possibility of two guns being used, because I would like to know more of the information about the crimes. It is my understanding that LE had concluded that the riffle given to the boy was the weapon that committed the murders. If that is the case, I find it highly suspect that drug dealers would use this type of weapon to commit an execution. If the theory is that the boy committed these murders in an execution style, because his father used drugs or only beat him when he used drugs, I find that theory far more sinister and more premeditated, especially when it comes to the murder of the house guest.

May all your todays and tomorrows be nice.

[Its just me]

Now William.... this post may end future posting together but I call things like I see them and there truely is no offense here...just my opinion of how I see things and I'd like to post on this thread. You are so intent on disagreeing in not a very polite way that you contradict your self and bash others for things you do your self. Come on... this is a message board to discuss this case not a court room with a judge and jury watching every word. I only know of your postings on this thread, and your thoughts on "Illinois" :) and I read the OJ thread but it's clear that you bring your feelings from some where to this thread. Let it go and lets discuss this case in a civil matter....read your signature line. Its a good one and I know you can produce some good thoughts. Peace. fep

[sharlock]

Autopsy: St. Johns murder victims shot in the head
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

[sharlock]

I am reading in a differnet forum that the family requested the boy have an adult with him or be accompanied by a professional and the request was denied. I am looking for a link that might confirm this.

[sharlock]

Okay guys I have only just started reading but it looks like we have been living in the dark over here. I am amazed by all the info and stuff elsewhere and I will do my best to bring it here shortly.

[William Anthony]

Now William.... this post may end future posting together but I call things like I see them and there truely is no offense here...just my opinion of how I see things and I'd like to post on this thread. You are so intent on disagreeing in not a very polite way that you contradict your self and bash others for things you do your self. Come on... this is a message board to discuss this case not a court room with a judge and jury watching every word. I only know of your postings on this thread, and your thoughts on "Illinois" :) and I read the OJ thread but it's clear that you bring your feelings from some where to this thread. Let it go and lets discuss this case in a civil matter....read your signature line. Its a good one and I know you can produce some good thoughts. Peace. fep

I am totally surprised by your accusations. I know form your posts on the other thread that you understand that I have an appreciation for the law and so do you I think. We were able to post on that thread without any uncivil posts and I sincerely hope we can continue on this thread without accusations. I have not disagreed only to the extent that we are discussing the facts. There will be some determination made of the facts during the processing of this case but until that point we are only discussing information. I do not think that stating my opinion on that point is uncivil.

You have mentioned two other threads on which I have posted. On one of those threads, I stated my feelings toward victim bashing and blaming and that holds true here. I don't think that having consistent feelings and principles equates to addressing another thread. However, I respect your feelings that it does as you are entitled, as I am to express an opinion.

I have not disagreed, as I do not know the facts and only have scant information. I do have an opinion on the information that has been supplied and stated why I question some of that information, which I think is in line with me voicing my opinion. I think many posters expressed their views on the alleged confession, which I do not believe is a confession, based on the information they had. Please, allow me to express my opinions or questions about the information as you are correct this is a message board, which allows for the expression of opinions? I simply do not feel that calling information a fact is correct and have questions about the information supplied and have expressed my opinions on that information.

[William Anthony]

I am reading in a differnet forum that the family requested the boy have an adult with him or be accompanied by a professional and the request was denied. I am looking for a link that might confirm this.

Thanks.

[William Anthony]

Okay guys I have only just started reading but it looks like we have been living in the dark over here. I am amazed by all the info and stuff elsewhere and I will do my best to bring it here shortly.

Thanks again, which makes my point about fact as opposed to information.

[sharlock]

"In documents released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings. "I knew this would happen," she said. "They were too hard on [the boy]. I knew [the boy] did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this, it's [the boy]."
The boy's grandfather, Leroy Romero, echoed the statement and pushed his ex-wife to tell police more, but Melnick said she was overcome with emotion, and the officers were asked to leave."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112702553.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112702553.html)
Mmmm.. apparently Leroy Romero has a car like the one the child described. Just saying.

[William Anthony]

Autopsy: St. Johns murder victims shot in the head
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-the-head/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx

I have read the autopsy report and did not see any type of reference to the caliber of the murder weapon(s). I will look to see if there is any information on a ballistics report.

[sharlock]

Jan 10, 2009

"Even if admitted, some of that evidence may be tainted or of questionable value because the child and his father were heavily involved in hunting. Experts say gunshot residue on the boy's clothing could have come from multiple sources. Likewise, they said, the boy's fingerprint found on an ammunition box could have been left at an earlier date. Phoenix attorney Gary Peter Klahr said loss of the confession substantially weakens a case, especially when some forensic evidence may be suspect.
"That's a major blow," he said. "There's enough circumstantial evidence so it could still go to a jury. . . . But I have a lot more reasonable doubt on this than I did on O.J."
Bennett, the University of Arizona professor, was among several experts Tuesday who criticized efforts to prosecute the child as an adult. Even if the boy committed the offense, he said, the state should be trying to figure out why he did it and how to help him.
"If you step away from the gruesomeness of it all, trying to hold an 8-year-old to the standards of an adult just doesn't make any sense," Bennett said."
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...johns0107.html (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/07/20090107stjohns0107.html)

[sharlock]

One of the officers was not certified to interrogate and the other was a family friend and the scene was released so quickly that Brewer was unable to view it. Can this get worse? This info is in the pdf. files of the court questions with the officers at the scene.

[William Anthony]

"In documents released Wednesday by the Apache County prosecutor's office, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said that Liz Romero, also known as Liz Castillo, shouted out angrily when she was told the boy would be arrested in the Nov. 5 killings. "I knew this would happen," she said. "They were too hard on [the boy]. I knew [the boy] did it. He spent the night in my bed cuddling up to me. I had a feeling he did it. If any 8-year-old boy is capable of doing this, it's [the boy]."
The boy's grandfather, Leroy Romero, echoed the statement and pushed his ex-wife to tell police more, but Melnick said she was overcome with emotion, and the officers were asked to leave."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112702553.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...112702553.html)
Mmmm.. apparently Leroy Romero has a car like the one the child described. Just saying.

Your link is not working for me. I would like to read it. Has anyone posted it previously?

[William Anthony]

One of the officers was not certified to interrogate and the other was a family freind. Can this get worse?

As usual there are two ways to look at this. One being that LE was wrong in how they conducted an interrogation and the other being that the boy was only being questioned and not being questioned as a suspect, which is LE's claim. Based on the other information, in regard to the prosecution's willingness to not contest the alleged confession if the child does not take the stand to recant, it seems to me that the defense is acquiescing to the fact that the murders were committed by the child and I see some type of arrangement that would be considered in the child's best interest.

[sharlock]

Apparently the Roman family now doubt the boy is guilty, and the Romero family have members who are also supporting the child... Murkier and murkier.

[sharlock]

Your link is not working for me. I would like to read it. Has anyone posted it previously?
I think it has been posted already. I didn't realise the link was broken but this is another link.
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/269284

[sharlock]

As usual there are two ways to look at this. One being that LE was wrong in how they conducted an interrogation and the other being that the boy was only being questioned and not being questioned as a suspect, which is LE's claim. Based on the other information, in regard to the prosecution's willingness to not contest the alleged confession if the child does not take the stand to recant, it seems to me that the defense is acquiescing to the fact that the murders were committed by the child and I see some type of arrangement that would be considered in the child's best interest.
He probably didn't think he needed to as the confession should be thrown out imo and the boy has been shown to be unfit to stand trial at all. Isn't that where this should have ended? Instead the judge has paused the 45day limit for 8days which is against the state laws. I am just dumbfounded.

[sharlock]

http://ktar.com/?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4
This crime scene photo shows a case and instruction manual for a semi automatic .22 calibre rifle that takes the same bullets as the childs version which has to be reloaded after each shot. It is the grandads apparently but where is the rifle???
The child said the get-a-way car was a small 'white car, like grandpa's.'

[William Anthony]

He probably didn't think he needed to as the confession should be thrown out imo and the boy has been shown to be unfit to stand trial at all. Isn't that where this should have ended? Instead the judge has paused the 45day limit for 8days which is against the state laws. I am just dumbfounded.

A poster told me that the entire confession was posted but I did not see it. The snippet I heard was not a confession to me. However, I do not know, if this came after the boy said he did it or not. In regard to whether or not the boy was being interrogated at the time he allegedly confessed or felt that he was is another question. The problem is, as I see it, that LE was not required to give the boy his Miranda rights, if he was not a suspect. However, to my understanding the expert, who said the boy was incompetent to stand trial, was hired by the defense, and I think the court is awaiting the evaluation of the expert it appointed, if I am correct. I think that the defense lawyer would be wise to accept the prosecution's offer to not contest the suppression of the alleged confession, as it seems the prosecution is seeking an amicable resolution. I have read the motion on the suppression of evidence pursuant to the search warrant and it seems to be a case of first impression in Arizona. There is ground to believe the judge, who signed the search warrant, felt he was not on firm legal ground. I will look to see if I can see if the prosecution filed a response and what their argument was.

[William Anthony]

http://ktar.com/?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4
This crime scene photo shows a case and instruction manual for a semi automatic .22 calibre rifle that takes the same bullets as the childs version which has to be reloaded after each shot. It is the grandads apparently but where is the rifle???

I would think that may have been confiscated as evidence.

[sharlock]

As usual there are two ways to look at this. One being that LE was wrong in how they conducted an interrogation and the other being that the boy was only being questioned and not being questioned as a suspect, which is LE's claim. Based on the other information, in regard to the prosecution's willingness to not contest the alleged confession if the child does not take the stand to recant, it seems to me that the defense is acquiescing to the fact that the murders were committed by the child and I see some type of arrangement that would be considered in the child's best interest.
I beleive that by saying they will reintroduce this confession as evidence if the child pleads not guilty they are really stating they do need it and that they think it is a viable confession. The next day the defense filed a motion for the prosecution to explain themselves which to me doesn't show they are acquiescing at all.

[sharlock]

Goodnight all!

[William Anthony]

Here is the defense motion to suppress the evidence obtained pursuant to the search warrant. I do not know how much time the prosecution had to respond and I am unable to find a response. Perhaps, the deadline for the prosecution's response has not expired and they have not, as of yet, filed a response.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20RE%20ILLEGAL%20WARRANT.pd f

[William Anthony]

I beleive that by saying they will reintroduce this confession as evidence if the child pleads not guilty they are really stating they do need it and that they think it is a viable confession. The next day the defense filed a motion for the prosecution to explain themselves which to me doesn't show they are acquiescing at all.

You may be correct. However, perhaps, this was an attempt by the defense to garner more information. It is my understanding that a prior inconsistent statement can be used to test the witnesses' credibility and the prosecution was simply saying that, if the child takes the stand and denies saying that he told LE he did it, they will use the statement as impeachment. Good night and may you rest comfortably.

[Its just me]

I am totally surprised by your accusations. I know form your posts on the other thread that you understand that I have an appreciation for the law and so do you I think. We were able to post on that thread without any uncivil posts and I sincerely hope we can continue on this thread without accusations. I have not disagreed only to the extent that we are discussing the facts. There will be some determination made of the facts during the processing of this case but until that point we are only discussing information. I do not think that stating my opinion on that point is uncivil.

You have mentioned two other threads on which I have posted. On one of those threads, I stated my feelings toward victim bashing and blaming and that holds true here. I don't think that having consistent feelings and principles equates to addressing another thread. However, I respect your feelings that it does as you are entitled, as I am to express an opinion.

I have not disagreed, as I do not know the facts and only have scant information. I do have an opinion on the information that has been supplied and stated why I question some of that information, which I think is in line with me voicing my opinion. I think many posters expressed their views on the alleged confession, which I do not believe is a confession, based on the information they had. Please, allow me to express my opinions or questions about the information as you are correct this is a message board, which allows for the expression of opinions? I simply do not feel that calling information a fact is correct and have questions about the information supplied and have expressed my opinions on that information.

Okey Dokey we both have expressed our feelings....:) Hoping Sharlock keeps providing information to discuss. fep

[William Anthony]

Okey Dokey we both have expressed our feelings....:) Hoping Sharlock keeps providing information to discuss. fep

Agreed. :)

[William Anthony]

I beleive that by saying they will reintroduce this confession as evidence if the child pleads not guilty they are really stating they do need it and that they think it is a viable confession. The next day the defense filed a motion for the prosecution to explain themselves which to me doesn't show they are acquiescing at all.

After reading the link you supplied, my understanding is that the motion was filed the next day in regard to the prosecution's offer to dismiss the murder charge against the father. I agree with the defense in that it was an obvious attempt by the prosecution to try the child as an adult when he became of age. I think the motion was an effort for the defense to get the prosecution to publicly state their intentions.

[William Anthony]

I have thus far only read one case in the brief cited for suppression of the evidence pursuant to the search warrant and, unfortunately, that case does not agree, imho, with the approach the defense wants taken. The only opinion that I have found is one of a dissent with the decision of the Court not to hear the case. Here is the link from the case and here is a paragraph. I will look to more cases.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=474&invol=984

“I find the Court's refusal to take this case particularly disturbing in light of the good faith exception to the Fourth-Amendment exclusionary rule created by United States v. Leon, 468 U.S. 897 , 82 L. Ed.2d 677 (1984). In Leon, the Court held that physical evidence seized by police officers reasonably relying upon a warrant issued by a detached and neutral magistrate is admissible in the prosecution's case in chief, even though a reviewing court has subsequently determined that the warrant was defective or that the officers failed to demonstrate when applying for the warrant that there was probable cause to conduct the search. The Court justified its holding to a large extent on the special protective role that a neutral and detached magistrate plays in safeguarding the Fourth Amendment right against unreasonable searches and seizures, id., at 913-917-3419. In fact, the Court indicated that suppression of evidence is appropriate where "the magistrate [has] abandoned his detached and neutral role," id., at 926. In my dissent, I warned that creation of a good-faith exception implicitly tells magistrates that they need not take much care in reviewing warrant applications, since their mistakes will have virtually no consequence, id., at 956. Today the Court tacitly informs magistrates that not only need they not worry about mistakes, they also need no longer be neutral and detached in their review of supporting affidavits. The combined message of Leon and the Court's refusal to grant certiorari in this case is that the [474 U.S. 984 , 988] police may rely on the magistrates and the magistrates may rely on the police. On whom may citizens rely to protect their Fourth Amendment rights? “

[William Anthony]

I have reviewed the case with the latest date, 1985, cited in the brief. Here is the link.

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/952/952.F2d.275.89-10315.89-10311.html

Here is what it said.

“Assuming that an appearance of partiality may lurk in the fact that judges and police officers in rural counties often know more about the local criminal recidivists do than their more urban colleagues, we are not prepared to disqualify small-town judges on demand. Here, the appearance clearly is not so "extreme" that it constitutes a constitutional violation.”

It seems to me that the court must look to see if there was probable cause to order the search warrant at the time it was issued and not simply because the judge knew the victim. I saw nothing in the brief where the defense denied the existence of probable cause of any other factor that the courts have considered impermissible for a judge to issue a warrant. In fact, it seems that these two cases argue against the defense's position.

[Jacobtk]

http://ktar.com/?sid=993970&nid=237&pid=4
This crime scene photo shows a case and instruction manual for a semi automatic .22 calibre rifle that takes the same bullets as the childs version which has to be reloaded after each shot. It is the grandads apparently but where is the rifle???

That is the question. It apparently has not been found and the police apparently have not been looking for it, which is odd given that the Plinkster's magazine holds exactly 10 .22 caliber rounds. The victims were shot a total of ten times. That is quite a coincidence. The other thing to note is that the only box of rounds taken from the home were .17 caliber.

[Jacobtk]

Based on the other information, in regard to the prosecution's willingness to not contest the alleged confession if the child does not take the stand to recant, it seems to me that the defense is acquiescing to the fact that the murders were committed by the child and I see some type of arrangement that would be considered in the child's best interest.

In the boy's attorney's response to the prosecutors' agreement not to use the confession, the attorney states that the issue now is whether the confession was legal. So, it does not appear that the boy's attorneys are conceding that the boy committed the shootings. They still want the confession ruled illegal and inadmissible. The prosecutors' acquiescence is little more than a sleight of hand. It essentially prevents the boy from taking the stand and claiming someone else did it or it was not him. Granted, the boy does not have to take the stand, but if this goes to trial, he may need to if they intend to suggest that his initial statement about the white car was true.

The problem is, as I see it, that LE was not required to give the boy his Miranda rights, if he was not a suspect.

Actually, the moment a person begins to confess they must be read their rights. In Arizona, the police are bound by law to prove that confessions were given voluntarily and that anyone confessing was made aware of their rights. If you read the motion for suppression, several cases are cited bolstering that point. What this means is that if the confession were to come in, the police would have to prove the boy was aware of his right not to speak, that he could leave and that he could ask for a lawyer at anytime. That would be fairly difficult to prove.

However, to my understanding the expert, who said the boy was incompetent to stand trial, was hired by the defense, and I think the court is awaiting the evaluation of the expert it appointed, if I am correct.

Judge Roca is awaiting the evaluation by the state's expert, not one appointed by the court. Obviously, both experts are tainted based on the who pays them. Chances are the boy will be found competent or incompetent but able to be rehabilitated by the prosecutors' expert. Judge Roca most likely will rule that the boy is incompetent but can be restored in 240 days. The chances of this case being dismissed are fairly low.

[SaraSidle]

Welcome aboard. Thanks for pointing out the errors made by this poster.

If this moves forward it will go to a jury trial. Where in Apache County, or Az, are they going to find 12 people (and however many alternates Az requires) who know nothing about this case and don't have any preconceived notions?

that is a good question Mr Bell. Even more so the evidence is so unreliable at this point I do not even know if it will go to court!!!!!!!!! How is that beautiful new car?

[William Anthony]

That is the question. It apparently has not been found and the police apparently have not been looking for it, which is odd given that the Plinkster's magazine holds exactly 10 .22 caliber rounds. The victims were shot a total of ten times. That is quite a coincidence. The other thing to note is that the only box of rounds taken from the home were .17 caliber.

I see you have been welcomed aboard and let me extend that welcome. Please provide a link showing that the riffle has not been found?

[William Anthony]

that is a good question Mr Bell. Even more so the evidence is so unreliable at this point I do not even know if it will go to court!!!!!!!!! How is that beautiful new car?

Thank you Sara for making this point, because some believe that their information is the correct information, while misidentifying the victims. I think we all just have information at this point and it should be considered appropriately.

[William Anthony]

[QUOTE=Jacobtk;9152735]In the boy's attorney's response to the prosecutors' agreement not to use the confession, the attorney states that the issue now is whether the confession was legal. So, it does not appear that the boy's attorneys are conceding that the boy committed the shootings. They still want the confession ruled illegal and inadmissible. The prosecutors' acquiescence is little more than a sleight of hand. It essentially prevents the boy from taking the stand and claiming someone else did it or it was not him. Granted, the boy does not have to take the stand, but if this goes to trial, he may need to if they intend to suggest that his initial statement about the white car was true.



That is exactly my point. There seems to be some type of agreement reached, since the information received says the alleged confession will not be used and I have not see anywhere were the court has ruled it illegal. Thanks.

[William Anthony]

Actually, the moment a person begins to confess they must be read their rights. In Arizona, the police are bound by law to prove that confessions were given voluntarily and that anyone confessing was made aware of their rights. If you read the motion for suppression, several cases are cited bolstering that point. What this means is that if the confession were to come in, the police would have to prove the boy was aware of his right not to speak, that he could leave and that he could ask for a lawyer at anytime. That would be fairly difficult to prove.

I think the proof of the legality of the standard of which you speak is a national standard, which I have expressed and to which we agree. The problem is that LE is alleging that the confession came unexpectedly while they were interviewing the child not as a suspect. If you read my prior posts, you will see that I have stated that immediately after the boy made that statement he should have been given his Miranda rights or the interview stopped. The problem in my mind is that when the boy was being intially interviewed by LE, before he allegedly became a suspect, did he feel that he was not being detained, meaning did he feel free to leave.

[William Anthony]

Welcome aboard. Thanks for pointing out the errors made by this poster.

If this moves forward it will go to a jury trial. Where in Apache County, or Az, are they going to find 12 people (and however many alternates Az requires) who know nothing about this case and don't have any preconceived notions?

I think it depends upon whether or not the child is treated as an adult or a juvenile. If treated as a juvenile and competent to stand trial, it will be a bench trial, according to my understanding.

[William Anthony]

Well now WA. And your posts that included so many incorrect details?

I notice you don't refer to all of the incorrect comments you have made. There are so many. Perhaps you should just stick to making incorrect comments on your Simpson thread. And you will run off and whine to DW about this post...because someone else has pointed out your lack of credible evidence.

I have found that it is often easy to agree with those, who disagree with those with whom one disagrees. However, this should straighten some things out about my post, stating that the court ordered the evaluation.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

"Roca clarified his earlier order for a psychological evaluation, "...a comprehensive evaluation, both competency and mental state at the time of the events in question."

[William Anthony]

To make clear what I have said and I apologize for lack of clarity or understanding, I am posing this case for review on the issue of the state expert and it will make clear that the court is an arm of the state and, therefore, the court order was a state order/mandate/announcement/appointment to obtain/hire an expert.

http://74.125.45.132/search?q=cache:Iosifk97ZdAJ:www.ctd.uscourts.gov/Opinions/112204.MRK.Greene.pdf+courts+are+arm+of+state+and+ immune+from+prosecution+under+the+Eleventh+Admendm ent&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us

[William Anthony]

I do apologize to the new poster as I said he said the state ordered the evaluation, which, as an arm of the state, the court did. Therefore, he and I are correct. I think the poster's issue is who paid for the expert and I would agree that the pay came from the state and its arms, which is why I said court appointed the expert per the order, when it may have been more correct to say the court paved the way through the order for the appointment or hiring of an expert for the state.

[William Anthony]

I do believe the gun was confiscated by LE due to this, which I believe I previously posted.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

“Police later located a 22-caliber rifle a couple feet inside the front door - he described the rifle as a single-shot bolt-action rifle. In talking to the boy's grandmother, he said he learned she had originally purchased the gun for her son, and he in turn gave it to his son. "She said (her grandson) knew how to use it." Rodriquez said he learned the Romero family members were hunters and had many guns in the home, mostly stored in the master bedroom.”

[FDInLaw]

Boy's taped confession won't be used in ArizonaBy Felicia FonsecaAssociated Press
In a dramatic police interview that gripped viewers nationwide, a 9-year-old boy sitting in an overstuffed chair told investigators that he shot his father and another man, then buried his head in his jacket and said, "I'm going to go to juvie."

But that videotaped interview likely won't be a part of the trial.

Defense lawyers had asked an Apache County judge to suppress any statements the boy made to police or while in custody, arguing the boy was illegally questioned without an attorney or family member present.

Prosecutors said unless the boy takes the stand in his own defense and contradicts the statements, they had no objections to the motion.

The hourlong interview was one of the first items released by prosecutors, and it wasn't long before the country learned about the shocking double homicide in the small eastern Arizona community of St. Johns.

Defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, questioned the validity of the so-called confession early on and said detectives lied to the child in pursuit of incriminating statements. Prosecutors said although they agreed to suppress the statements, their decision doesn't mean they agree the statements were illegally obtained.

>snip<

The boy, who turned 9 last week, told police that he had been spanked five times the night before the shootings because he didn't bring home some papers from school. While in custody, he told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last, according to police reports.

Prosecutors say the child was not prompted to make the statement and agreed with defense attorneys that anything said to the CPS worker should be suppressed as well.

Along with the police interview, defense lawyers also want the judge to throw out any evidence gathered from the crime scene, including a weapon, spent cartridges, blood samples, photographs and forensic material. The attorneys claim the search warrant is invalid because the magistrate who signed it was a friend of the Romero family.

Prosecutors said merely knowing the victim does not alter the neutrality of the judge. If the court finds the magistrate did not act impartially, prosecutors said the evidence should still be allowed at trial because law enforcement acted properly in obtaining it.

Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca has not ruled on either defense motion.

The boy, who is not being identified because of his age, was in court Tuesday for a status conference. Dressed in blue sweat pants and a matching sweat shirt, he frequently turned to family members and smiled. He was brought in cuffed at the legs, and his hair was partially blond, a change since his last appearance in court in November.

The next hearing in the case is scheduled for Jan. 21.



http://www.jg.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090107/APA/901070738&template=apart

[Jacobtk]

Please provide a link showing that the riffle has not been found?

To my knowledge no one has reported on the Plinkster at all. However, on the Arizona Supreme Court site you linked to before the gun was not included in the items that were seized in the search warrant, it has not been included in the evidence the state plans to present and it has not been mentioned by any of the officers involved with the initial investigation. So, allow me to correct myself and say that I have knowledge of whether the gun was recovered, but from the available information it would appear that it was not.

There seems to be some type of agreement reached, since the information received says the alleged confession will not be used and I have not see anywhere were the court has ruled it illegal.

Judge Roca has refused to rule on any issues at this point. He even refused to rule on whether the boy was allowed to have a photo of his mother. However, that does not mean there has been an agreement. If there was an agreement, the attorneys would not have asked for clarification about the state's claim that there were errors in the defense's motion to suppress the statements and they would not still be seeking to have the statements ruled as inadmissible and illegal.

he problem is that LE is alleging that the confession came unexpectedly while they were interviewing the child not as a suspect. If you read my prior posts, you will see that I have stated that immediately after the boy made that statement he should have been given his Miranda rights or the interview stopped. The problem in my mind is that when the boy was being intially interviewed by LE, before he allegedly became a suspect, did he feel that he was not being detained, meaning did he feel free to leave.

That issue was addressed in the motion to suppress the statements. In Arizona, the law is that all confessions must be proven to be voluntary. The police must show that a person understands he has the right to representation, understands that he does not have to give a statement and understands that he is allowed to leave at any time. The problem with the police claiming the boy did understand this is that the officers interrogating him never stopped to explain anything to him on video and they claim the questioning began only after the camera was turned on. They also admitted in sworn statements that they never told the boy anything about his rights. Under their own admission, they simply assumed he understood. Technically, that makes the confession inadmissible, which is probably why the prosecutors conceded the use of it.

[SaraSidle]

Car's fine. Sara, whether or not this goes to trial depends on Judge Roca and whether or not he finds the child competent. You know, I find it difficult to believe that a case like this isn't being followed by the press more closely.
He's 9 years old. He's going to stalk 2 grown men and shoot them execution style? Not likely. Anyone who follows this case should be contacting LE and their own representatives and saying enough is enough. This is a travesty of justice. It's just not good enough. The child's been in jail since November, in shackles when he's brought to court.

exactly how I feel Joseph. this has so many rumors and doubts I am very angry and hope LE and social workers know what the heck they are doing. Glad the car is fine. you should post a picture. I am jealous.

[SaraSidle]

I do believe the gun was confiscated by LE due to this, which I believe I previously posted.

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

“Police later located a 22-caliber rifle a couple feet inside the front door - he described the rifle as a single-shot bolt-action rifle. In talking to the boy's grandmother, he said he learned she had originally purchased the gun for her son, and he in turn gave it to his son. "She said (her grandson) knew how to use it." Rodriquez said he learned the Romero family members were hunters and had many guns in the home, mostly stored in the master bedroom.”

just to add....my DH said this is a very dangerous weapon as far as aim and destruction is concerned. he is good with weapons although he does not hunt. (or there would be problems). anyways he says a 22 in the head will bounce around the brain and do immediate and inoperable damage. fyi

[William Anthony]

just to add....my DH said this is a very dangerous weapon as far as aim and destruction is concerned. he is good with weapons although he does not hunt. (or there would be problems). anyways he says a 22 in the head will bounce around the brain and do immediate and inoperable damage. fyi

I do believe he is right as a 22 is likely to bounce off bones and travel in the body from what I was told.

[William Anthony]

To my knowledge no one has reported on the Plinkster at all. However, on the Arizona Supreme Court site you linked to before the gun was not included in the items that were seized in the search warrant, it has not been included in the evidence the state plans to present and it has not been mentioned by any of the officers involved with the initial investigation. So, allow me to correct myself and say that I have knowledge of whether the gun was recovered, but from the available information it would appear that it was not.

You are correct, which is why I said we only have information and no facts and why I said I guess or words to that effect that LE confiscated the gun.

[William Anthony]

That issue was addressed in the motion to suppress the statements. In Arizona, the law is that all confessions must be proven to be voluntary. The police must show that a person understands he has the right to representation, understands that he does not have to give a statement and understands that he is allowed to leave at any time. The problem with the police claiming the boy did understand this is that the officers interrogating him never stopped to explain anything to him on video and they claim the questioning began only after the camera was turned on. They also admitted in sworn statements that they never told the boy anything about his rights. Under their own admission, they simply assumed he understood. Technically, that makes the confession inadmissible, which is probably why the prosecutors conceded the use of it.
Reply With Quote

I think that in order for a confession to be admissible the Supreme Court has ruled that it must be intelligent (IIRC) and voluntary. We are not disagreeing as any statement, when the child became a suspect and not given his Miranda rights would have been inadmissible. I have some questions about the confession being voluntary in that the child may not have felt he was free to leave, despite, if as LE alleges, he was not a suspect at the time he made the initial statement. I have provided the link on the Nevada law that states, IIRC, a juvenile does not need representation when questioned by LE, if the child is not a suspect.

[William Anthony]

Judge Roca has refused to rule on any issues at this point. He even refused to rule on whether the boy was allowed to have a photo of his mother. However, that does not mean there has been an agreement. If there was an agreement, the attorneys would not have asked for clarification about the state's claim that there were errors in the defense's motion to suppress the statements and they would not still be seeking to have the statements ruled as inadmissible and illegal.


I have provided information that the alleged confession would not be used and a link, showing what the prosecution agreed to as to not using the tape before the previous link. Therefore, I stand behind my position that some agreement has been reached but my information, as well as any othe poster's might be incorrect. Please, provide a link that states they are still seeking to have the alleged confession ruled illegal that is dated after the link I provided and we should then be able to agree.