8-Year-Old Boy Arrested In Double-Homicide - Arizona

[FDInLaw]

Interesting to me that CR doesn't draw VR's extremities. When I was in school and in training and worked as a caseworker, that was a red flag to investigators; there was a school of thought that omitting limbs, hands, or feet is an emotional indicator of sexual abuse and incest victims. And Neckels had years of experience interviewing children IIRC from what she told Brewer, so I'm not going to chalk this up to anxiety on CR's part.
I see arms and legs. :confused: How much more detail should we expect?

Interesting thoughts to keep in mind though!

What jumps out at me is the dark line next to what looks like a cage.

[Its just me]

Fep, your last link makes me wonder what the stats are for race motivated crime in that area? Hum.

At least we know that LE was out getting interviews (see, OWL, I can say something positive. ;) )


You ROCK Fep!

On page 211 it shows another bold action 22 rifle taken....among other items. This rifle has a different S/N than the one found on the cage. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dps%20binders%202%20red%20(1).pdf

[Its just me]

I see arms and legs. :confused: How much more detail should we expect?

Interesting thoughts to keep in mind though!

What jumps out at me is the dark line next to what looks like a cage.

I have a 7 year old grandson and his little stick drawings are precious and they show pretty much what he is trying to draw. CR's broke my heart. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

I see arms and legs. :confused: How much more detail should we expect?

Interesting thoughts to keep in mind though!

What jumps out at me is the dark line next to what looks like a cage.

I see arms that taper without discernible hands. I stick stick legs but no feet/boots/shoes. He's eight; I would expect to see an attempt at drawing hands and feet, and maybe even fingers. Maybe we're looking at different drawing? :confused:

[FDInLaw]

I see arms that taper without discernible hands. I stick stick legs but no feet/boots/shoes. He's eight; I would expect to see an attempt at drawing hands and feet, and maybe even fingers. Maybe we're looking at different drawing? :confused: CR did not put much detail into the gun either (if the dark scribble is what that is). I don't know. Good questions. VR's hands/arms were found under his body. This is by no means a literal picture.

It is a heart breaking picture. :rose:

[lorettalockhorn]

CR did not put much detail into the gun either (if the dark scribble is what that is). I don't know. Good questions. VR's hands/arms were found under his body. This is by no means a literal picture.

It is a heart breaking picture. :rose:

I understand what you're saying, my point is not that he drew the figure differently than the body was found, but that he did show the arms, and you might well expect an intelligent eight - almost nine year old to at least show some semblance of hands when drawing a body. Not talking about detail; knuckles, fingernails, etc., just that the person has hands that are separate from the arms. You might also expect that the legs would be drawn in relatively the same way as the arms, rather than as stick figures (with no feet).

[Its just me]

I looked at the stick pictures I have saved and they all have hands and feet. LOL Those drawn when they were in preK have chicken feet and hands and the fingers and toes appeared as the grandchildren got older...sometimes there are huge ears stuck out there.

This is only one picture that CR drew when he was not at his best to say the least but it's interesting there are no feet and hands after reading what Loretta was taught in school and training. Thanks for sharing Loretta.

I've read what a good dad VR was and what a good stepmom TR was and I don't know but I do know it appears the child was negelected or someone would have called him to make sure he got home ok or had a rule for CR to call someone when he got home. They all had cell phones and if there was a call made ...it has not been told. fep

[SaraSidle]

On page 22 I show CR strapped down on a bed. IMO sara

[FDInLaw]

On page 22 I show CR strapped down on a bed. IMO sara
Huh? Run that by me again. . .

[Its just me]

Huh? Run that by me again. . .

I looked on one link and couldn't find it. Sara can you post the link. TIA fep

[SaraSidle]

[QUOTE=Its just me;9163692]More information: The pictures CR drew during the interview is on page 22 of (1-24) IIRC. The picture appears to be of his dad. Granted it's a child's drawing but notice the line coming off of the dad's right hand. If it's nothing I believe it is the only line actually out of place. So sad....notice the sad face. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/possiblewitnessnotesBO.pdf

snipped

I guess now that I have looked at it a few more times it is a man on the stairs where there is a landing. I am sorry for confusing it. I am too tired. IMO sara

[Its just me]

Thanks Sara, I can understand being too tired.

This link shows things taken from the scene. The location is described for all items taken except the rifle. Interesting. Maybe they couldn’t spell dog cage. :shrug: Also it shows a shell was found in the rifle. Sort of puzzling because the rifle is a single shot. Why reload the gun after killing two people?? fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/searchwarrantpropertysupp%20BO.pdf

[FDInLaw]

So, what can we expect from the hearing today? I doubt the charges will be dropped, now that a new date for a competency hearing has been set. (Why would the judge do this if it wasn't going to be needed?)

[Its just me]

So, what can we expect from the hearing today? I doubt the charges will be dropped, now that a new date for a competency hearing has been set. (Why would the judge do this if it wasn't going to be needed?)

I really don't have a clue but willing to make a wild guess. I think a lot of it depends on the evidence for or against CR. If there is strong evidence against CR dropping the charge for count 1 today will depend on how the judge feels about charges being pressed again when CR is older. If there is little evidence I don't think the judge will drop the charge today and both charges will be dropped after the competency hearing.

Praying for what is best....be done. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

Adding prayers too.

[FDInLaw]

Motion to continue just filled:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/MOTION%20TO%20CONTINUE.pdf


Hearing date changed to 2/19/09:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20CONTINUING%20FEB%2012%2009%20HEARING.pdf


Change of plea to take place.

[FDInLaw]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%2012,%20200 9.pdf



"Details of plea agreement not available."



This does not sound good to me. They may have enough evidence that the CR was the one that pulled the trigger after all. JMO

[FDInLaw]

PHOENIX, Ariz. -- There are new developments in the case of a boy accused of killing his father and another man in St. Johns late last year.

Defense attorneys for the boy tell ABC15 the case could be settled by next week.

Sources close to the investigation confirm that a change of plea hearing has been scheduled for next Thursday.

Attorney Tim Eckstein who is not associated with this case said a change of plea hearing is usually scheduled when the court believes a plea deal is likely.

The 9-year-old boy in Saint Johns has been scheduled Thursday to learn if he will remain at home with his biological mother, or be placed back in a Juvenile Detention Center.

ABC15 has learned the boy will remain with his mother, despite the fact that today's hearing was canceled.

The Apache County Attorney is not commenting on a possible plea deal at this time but is expected to speak to the media following next week's plea hearing.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Boy-murder-suspect-case-may-end-with-St-Johns/sA8eJm-M0EG2HEsJmNmCsA.cspx

[lorettalockhorn]

The plea hearing is before the competency hearing? So does that mean that both sides will stipulate to CR's competency (or lack of?)? Does that mean that the plea could be for a lessor charge?

My heart is heavy.

[FDInLaw]

The plea hearing is before the competency hearing? So does that mean that both sides will stipulate to CR's competency (or lack of?)? Does that mean that the plea could be for a lessor charge?

My heart is heavy.I kind of wonder if proof of abuse was found and the State is offering CR a light sentence, rather than drag the victim's families through a painful ordeal. Just speculation on my part. The boy is still free to stay with his Mom. If he were considered a serious threat to society I doubt they would keep extending his furlough. I wonder.

[lorettalockhorn]

I kind of wonder if proof of abuse was found and the State is offering CR a light sentence, rather than drag the victim's families through a painful ordeal. Just speculation on my part. The boy is still free to stay with his Mom. If he were considered a serious threat to society I doubt they would keep extending his furlough. I wonder.

Staying with Mom seems to be the good news here. I'm not giving up on the hope that there is much more to this story and that CR is innocent to some degree.

[Its just me]

I kind of wonder if proof of abuse was found and the State is offering CR a light sentence, rather than drag the victim's families through a painful ordeal. Just speculation on my part. The boy is still free to stay with his Mom. If he were considered a serious threat to society I doubt they would keep extending his furlough. I wonder.

I think the prosecution has a weak case or they would not consider a plea deal but it may be strong enough that Brewer is going to take one..but
Doesn't the accused have to accept the plea....If CR is not incompetent...then what. Since the mom is present at all hearings I wonder if she has been appointed CR's guardian. There was one hearing she could not be present in person but was present by phone.

I believe CR is home for GOOD what ever kind of power play is taking place behind the scenes. I think it said the plea hearing will be open. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

I think the prosecution has a weak case or they would not consider a plea deal but it may be strong enough that Brewer is going to take one..but
Doesn't the accused have to accept the plea....If CR is not incompetent...then what. Since the mom is present at all hearings I wonder if she has been appointed CR's guardian. There was one hearing she could not be present in person but was present by phone.

I believe CR is home for GOOD what ever kind of power play is taking place behind the scenes. I think it said the plea hearing will be open. fep

That's how I read it. A plea hearing before the competency results are heard by the judge sounds premature and/or backwards.

[Its just me]

Click on the video to the right. Reporter talks like there will be a guilty plea or a no contest with emphasis on treatment and not jail time. Sad Sad case. :rose: for all involved. fep


http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-boy-accused-in-murder-to-change-his-plea/sA8eJm-M0EG2HEsJmNmCsA.cspx

[Its just me]

Jacob over at IS has done a good job explaining what is taking place. It's worth the read. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks, FEP!

[SaraSidle]

Jacob over at IS has done a good job explaining what is taking place. It's worth the read. fep

thanks fep whether he is guilty or not I sure hope he gets counseling cause this whole thing is way too emotional for anyone. IMO sara

[samanthajane13]

Ariz. boy, 9, offered plea deal in dad's killing
By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 19 mins ago

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – A 9-year-old charged with killing his father and another man has been offered a plea deal that would spare him any jail time, his attorney said Thursday.

"We aren't going to sign him up for prison," defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said. "We would never do that."

Brewer declined to offer specifics, including what plea the boy could enter and whether it would involve the two counts of premeditated murder he faces. A change of plea hearing was scheduled for Feb. 19, but Brewer said his client must still accept the deal.

"We believe this agreement addresses any potential needs out there as well as secures he does not get messed up going to juvenile corrections, or adult prison for that manner," Brewer said.

Prosecutors could not immediately be reached for comment Thursday.

The boy was arrested and charged after authorities said he used a .22-caliber rifle Nov. 5 to kill his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, a co-worker of Romero's who lived with the family in St. Johns. The boy, 8 years old at the time of the shooting, has been in and out of juvenile custody since his arrest.

A spokesman for the Romans family, John Andreas, hasn't objected to the boy receiving treatment, but he said Thursday that the boy should be jailed until he's at least 18.

Romans' two daughters weep over their father's grave each weekend on the San Carlos Apache reservation, and anxiety attacks awaken Romans' wife at night, he said.

The boy, who has pleaded not guilty, acknowledged in a videotaped police interview that he shot the men. He told police that he had been spanked five times the night before the shootings because he didn't bring home some papers from school. While in custody, he told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last, according to police reports.

The defense argued that the boy was illegally questioned without an attorney or relative present, and prosecutors said they would not show a jury the video unless the boy testified and contradicted his statements.

Brewer said the deal was drafted by prosecutors. He wouldn't discuss what could happen to the boy if he accepts the plea, but said a juvenile who is tried in court could be put on probation, go to a foster home or be sent to a home for treatment.

In late November, prosecutors wrote in court documents that a plea deal had been offered to the boy that would resolve the charges in juvenile court. That deal was contingent on the results of mental health evaluations.

A defense-nominated expert later indicated the boy's age and intelligence level meant he wouldn't be fit for a trial. Two experts who evaluated the boy are still scheduled to testify on Feb. 27.

Prosecutors drafted the latest plea agreement, and Brewer said Thursday that attorneys began discussing it about a month ago. The discussions led to two delays of a hearing on a request by prosecutors to drop one of the murder charges against the boy before the request was vacated Thursday.

Defense attorneys were in a tight spot. If Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca granted the prosecution's request, it would have allowed prosecutors to refile the charge when the boy is older and try him as an adult.

Brewer said he didn't want to risk having a charge looming in the future and the boy not receiving any treatment. Brewer said attorneys were dealing with a number of unknowns in a case that didn't seem to have any guidelines.

"Sure we could have went to trial and potentially won, but that's a heck of the roll of the dice," he said.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090213/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

[William Anthony]

A plea of no lo contendre means that the defendant neither admits or denies his guilt and, consequently, the court finds the defendant guilty. Normally, it is done in regard to an arrangement that would save the court the cost of a trial and avoid the scandalous details of a public trial. I think the latter is what motivated all involved. Judging from the willingness of both parties, I would say that there were some mitigating and aggravating factors, that didn't need to be exposed. I hope the deal is the best for all involved. I hope the child leaves the area as the plea will not remove the stigma, imho.

[HotNostril]

Why am I unable to view any page after page 26?

[FDInLaw]

Why am I unable to view any page after page 26?
Because, page 26 is the last page (?).


We are not as yappy over here I guess. On IS there might be 26 pages on any given day for this case.

WELCOME! :seeya:

[HotNostril]

Because, page 26 is the last page (?).


We are not as yappy over here I guess. On IS there might be 26 pages on any given day for this case.

WELCOME! :seeya:

Ah ha! Thanks for the welcome!:seeya:

But at the bottom it says...page 26 of 29?

[FDInLaw]

Ah ha! Thanks for the welcome!:seeya:

But at the bottom it says...page 26 of 29?
Huh. Mine says 26 if 26. :shrug:



Anywho. . . we could use more folks with your point of view. Sure hope you will post more of your thoughts about this case.

[lorettalockhorn]

Mine still shows that we have 29 pages too. The only thing that bugs me about it, is that the "view post" feature doesn't work in order to backtrack in the thread. It's that way in the discussion thread in Caylee's forum too. Oh well.

[Its just me]

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1085114&r=1 (http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1085114&r=1)

Experts say plea deal way to go in AZ boy's case


February 13th, 2009 @ 8:06pm


by Associated Press



Just months after a double homicide shocked the small town of St. Johns, attorneys have reached a compromise that would prevent the 9-year-old boy charged with the crimes from going to trial.
It's an agreement that the boy's defense attorneys acknowledge won't make everyone happy. But in a case full of unknowns, legal experts and prominent Arizona attorneys say a plea deal may very well be the best way to resolve this case.
``In a case like this, especially a juvenile, especially a kid who is not a bad kid, there's no need to have the public spectacle and emotional trauma of a trial if there's a resolution that everyone involved may not like but can live with,'' said high-profile defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the case.
The boy, who prosecutors said never had been in trouble before the Nov. 5 shootings, faces two counts of premeditated murder in the deaths of his father, 29-year- old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans. Police say he used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot the men as the returned home from work.
It's unclear what the boy will plead to during a hearing next week that defense attorneys say should resolve the case. The boy still must sign the agreement. Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca will consider whether to approve the deal before a sentencing date is set.
Attorneys on both sides spent weeks negotiating a plea deal, an essential give-and-take between attorneys that University of Arizona law professor Jack Chin said resolves between 90 percent and 95 percent of all cases.
Before an agreement is reached, attorneys consider the likelihood they will prevail in court, the time and cost of going to trial, the wishes of their clients and whether their goals can be accomplished through a plea deal.
``If you can meet those goals, then it's always better to plead it,'' said former Arizona Attorney General Grant Woods. ``That's a guaranteed result of some sort, rather than run the risk of going to trial.''
Judy Stinson, a clinical law professor at Arizona State University, said a plea deal is the best chance to guarantee the boy's case stays in juvenile court and that he'll receive treatment to put him on the path to rehabilitation.
``No one is thrilled to have to go this route, but it probably is the best result all-around because it reduces the uncertainty for the minor and the state,'' Stinson said.
Both prosecutors and defense attorneys would have faced a number of hurdles if not opting for a plea agreement, the experts and attorneys said.
For prosecutors, it was the chance that the boy would be found incompetent and the case dismissed, leaving no treatment options for the boy and no justice for the victims' families. The defense-nominated expert who evaluated the boy indicated he wasn't fit to stand trial.
There also were questions surrounding how the evidence, including a so-called confession, was gathered and whether it would be admissible in court.
Laboratory testing showed the boy, who was well-trained as a hunter, had gunshot residue on his clothing, and his fingerprint was found on a box containing .22-caliber ammunition.
As a sort of backup, prosecutors asked Roca to dismiss one charge against the boy that would have allowed them to try the boy as an adult when he's older.
For defense attorneys, who have successfully fought to have the boy released at times during the proceedings, the possibility that he could spend any time in an adult prison wasn't something they wanted to risk.
``If we came up on the wrong side of that, it would hammer down on (the boy) pretty hard,'' defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said.
Documents released by prosecutors showed that the boy previously made threats against his father. Romans' wife also told police she heard the boy's voice in the background as she talked with her husband over the phone moments before he was killed.
Woods says the attorneys would have had to agree somewhat on the facts before a plea was reached. While many details of juvenile cases generally aren't released, the public has an appetite for this story, and Woods said he is hopeful the attorneys will lay out the case in the plea agreement.
``I think we have a right to know what really went on here,'' he said. ``If you don't know what went on, it's hard to determine whether this is an appropriate disposition.''
Prosecutors have not commented on the plea agreement, and defense attorneys have said little other than that it would assure the boy spends no time in the state juvenile corrections system. Brewer said his client could serve time in a county facility, but ``we certainly don't think'' he will.
Piccarreta says attorneys generally should work toward a plea deal if the parties believe the case was fully investigated and as many terms as possible are laid out in writing to guarantee a certain outcome. ``Sometimes, for one side or the other, the moment is right,'' he said. ``If either side makes an offer you can't refuse, it doesn't matter when it is. You take it or run the risk of not having it later.''

[sharlock]

A plea of no lo contendre means that the defendant neither admits or denies his guilt and, consequently, the court finds the defendant guilty. Normally, it is done in regard to an arrangement that would save the court the cost of a trial and avoid the scandalous details of a public trial. I think the latter is what motivated all involved. Judging from the willingness of both parties, I would say that there were some mitigating and aggravating factors, that didn't need to be exposed. I hope the deal is the best for all involved. I hope the child leaves the area as the plea will not remove the stigma, imho.
So do I.
This has certainly been one of those cases that makes you examine your own conscience and examine those beliefs we all hold but rarely examine.

[William Anthony]

So do I.
This has certainly been one of those cases that makes you examine your own conscience and examine those beliefs we all hold but rarely examine.

Yes, we have all speculated to some degree. My speculations have cause me some concern about my belief in the judicial system, the public's right to know and my personal beliefs, not necessarily in that order, :). In the end, I must trust that those in the know will reach the best possible solution, because any other belief will leave me with the feeling that the resolution was tainted.

[HotNostril]

I believe this child really needs to be locked in a secure treatment facility until he's 18.

I think he's deeply disturbed.

[William Anthony]

What should happen to the child, if at 18 years of age, he demonstrates that he is still disturbed?

[FDInLaw]

I believe this child really needs to be locked in a secure treatment facility until he's 18.

I think he's deeply disturbed.

What should happen to the child, if at 18 years of age, he demonstrates that he is still disturbed?

My question as well. . . what next? At eighteen, should the child be tried for a crime he was alleged to have committed ten years earlier????

Having been in the system, I don't have much confidence in “treatment” facilities.

MOO

[Its just me]

I believe if the plea is accepted CR will be sentenced by the judge. What that is remains a mystery but I believe it will end the case as far as charges being brought up when CR is older.

I hope and believe help will be included in the sentencing. I agree with FDInlaw and have little hope the help will be anything close to what we would want for our family member is one was in need. Hopefully it's better than nothing.

I can't say what should be done beyond CR getting help because I have very little knowledge of the whole scope of things surrounding what actually happened and have no idea what the circumstances will be when CR becomes 18 or serves what ever sentence the Judge decides.

:rose: Prayers for "all" involved. fep

[William Anthony]

I think that we may have over looked one element of the plea, in which a defendant pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. I also believe that Nevada uses the McNaughton rule. What happens to the child, if this is the plea?

[Its just me]

I think that we may have over looked one element of the plea, in which a defendant pleads not guilty by reason of insanity. I also believe that Nevada uses the McNaughton rule. What happens to the child, if this is the plea?

I don't think the court would allow the plea of insanity because the child is not insane. I believe he has been determined to be incompetent because of his age alone. fep

[FDInLaw]

If conclusive evidence of abuse (by one or both victims) emerged, how might this change a possible plea? Could the child plea self defense???


Just thinking out loud here. . .

[William Anthony]

I don't think the court would allow the plea of insanity because the child is not insane. I believe he has been determined to be incompetent because of his age alone. fep

I think you may misunderstand the difference between not guilty by reason of criminal insanity and being insane. I think that, if you review the McNaughton rule, you will understand what I am saying.

[William Anthony]

If conclusive evidence of abuse (by one or both victims) emerged, how might this change a possible plea? Could the child plea self defense???


Just thinking out loud here. . .

I think that might require a trial. I think a judge or jury would have to conclude that the child was abused and that those involved in the abuse were Mr. Romero and Mr. Romans and the child thought his life or the life of a loved one was in imminent danger.

[William Anthony]

The plea of not guilty by reason of insanity might also require a trial. I am not sure how this would be handled in the juvenile court. If we go under the assumption that a plea deal has been made that might rule out the pleas of not guilty by reason of insanity or self defense.:shrug:

[lorettalockhorn]

...Woods says the attorneys would have had to agree somewhat on the facts before a plea was reached. While many details of juvenile cases generally aren't released, the public has an appetite for this story, and Woods said he is hopeful the attorneys will lay out the case in the plea agreement.
``I think we have a right to know what really went on here,'' he said. ``If you don't know what went on, it's hard to determine whether this is an appropriate disposition.''
Prosecutors have not commented on the plea agreement, and defense attorneys have said little other than that it would assure the boy spends no time in the state juvenile corrections system. Brewer said his client could serve time in a county facility, but ``we certainly don't think'' he will.
Piccarreta says attorneys generally should work toward a plea deal if the parties believe the case was fully investigated ...

Thanks for the article, FEP. These statements are key, but I'm curious about the boy signing the agreement before the determination of competency. Does the guardian ad litem sign for him?

I believe this child really needs to be locked in a secure treatment facility until he's 18.

I think he's deeply disturbed.

If he wasn't before, he probably is now. I'm not sure how he can begin to understand what has transpired since the death of his father. He's spent much of that time alone, and the mother isn't allowed to discuss the case with him. That leaves the small amount of time that he has with the counselor for grieving and coming to terms with what has happened.

[William Anthony]

I found this from a United States Supreme Court case.

“Likewise, Congress has afforded protection from improvident commitment to an accused in a criminal case who appears to the trial court 'from the court's own observations, or from prima facie evidence submitted to the court * * * (to be) of unsound mind or * * * mentally incompetent so as to be unable to understand the proceedings against him or properly to assist in his own defense.' D.C.Code, § 24—301(a). In such circumstances preliminary commitment for a 'reasonable period' is authorized in order to permit observation and examination. If the medical report shows that the accused is of unsound mind, the court may 'commit by order the accused to a hospital for the mentally ill unless the accused or the Government objects.' (Emphasis added). In case of objection, there must be a judicial determination with respect to the accused's mental health, and it is only 'if the court shall find the accused to be then of unsound mind or mentally incompetent to stand trial' that an order for continued commitment is permissible. Hence if the accused denies that he is mentally ill, he is entitled to a judicial determination of his present mental state despite the hospital board's certification that he is of unsound mind. And it should be noted that the burden rests with the party seeking commitment to prove that the accused is 'then of unsound mind.' D.C.Code, § 24—301(a).”

http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/US/369/369.US.705.159.html

[Its just me]

Thanks for the article, FEP. These statements are key, but I'm curious about the boy signing the agreement before the determination of competency. Does the guardian ad litem sign for him?



If he wasn't before, he probably is now. I'm not sure how he can begin to understand what has transpired since the death of his father. He's spent much of that time alone, and the mother isn't allowed to discuss the case with him. That leaves the small amount of time that he has with the counselor for grieving and coming to terms with what has happened.

I'm waiting to see how the plea is handled. Brewer stated CR had to agree to it before it can take place. My understanding is the doctor for the defense determined him to be incompetent to stand trial....I'm assuming this is based on his understanding of the legal system. Since the plea is scheduled to take place before the competency hearing the competency hearing may never happen. :shrug: I'm sure it is all under control but it sounds like a mess to me.

I read somewhere about CR whimpering in his sleep...and it was said he would do this after he has been detained. I've read all kind of opinions from people but I continue to see a "child" and I believe he should be handled and dealt with as a child which may be difficult because dealing with an 8 year old accused of double murder is a first for the area. I'm not impressed with any of the officials except the defense who seems to be able to see beyond the moment at hand. mhoo fep

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm waiting to see how the plea is handled. Brewer stated CR had to agree to it before it can take place. My understanding is the doctor for the defense determined him to be incompetent to stand trial....I'm assuming this is based on his understanding of the legal system. Since the plea is scheduled to take place before the competency hearing the competency hearing may never happen. :shrug: I'm sure it is all under control but it sounds like a mess to me.

I read somewhere about CR whimpering in his sleep...and it was said he would do this after he has been detained. I've read all kind of opinions from people but I continue to see a "child" and I believe he should be handled and dealt with as a child which may be difficult because dealing with an 8 year old accused of double murder is a first for the area. I'm not impressed with any of the officials except the defense who seems to be able to see beyond the moment at hand. mhoo fep

I have faith in the defense, but this case is an onus (like no other that hopefully they will never face again).

I'm really hung up on the competence issue; how can the boy not be competent to stand trial, yet competent to accept the plea?

[William Anthony]

The defense is fulfilling its obligation to work in the child's best interest. We must presume that the prosecution is working in the best interest of all those involved and the court is balancing the interests of all those involved in a way that is just to all. I cannot see a defense attorney accepting a plea, if there is strong evidence to support a not guilty verdict in this case.

[Jadedblueeyes]

IMO OPINION it is not possible for one to fire a gun in hand without gun power residue not being deposited on the hand of the shooter. that is the first thing le test. It is also possible that residue will be found on the lower sleeve of clothing worn by the shooter. if there was no gun residue analysis report
i assume the DA did not request one or le did not do one.:shrug:

From the released documents now it does seem that the GSR particles were found on his sleeve, the chest area of his shirt and the thighs of his pants.

Strange if innocent and just walked into a cloud of white smoke why he doesn't have GSR particles in general overall areas of his clothing. They all seem to be on the front part of his clothing. Hmmm the places they would be found if he were the shooter and not just an eye witness that came into white smoke swirling and sifting down everywhere.

imo

[HotNostril]

From the released documents now it does seem that the GSR particles were found on his sleeve, the chest area of his shirt and the thighs of his pants.

Strange if innocent and just walked into a cloud of white smoke why he doesn't have GSR particles in general overall areas of his clothing. They all seem to be on the front part of his clothing. Hmmm the places they would be found if he were the shooter and not just an eye witness that came into white smoke swirling and sifting down everywhere.

imo

Fancy running into you here!

[Jadedblueeyes]

Fancy running into you here!

LOL! This is one of my old hangouts.

:seeya::tongue:

[FDInLaw]

LOL! This is one of my old hangouts.

:seeya::tongue:

From your post count, it looks like you hung out here a lot (lol). :biggrin:

Now, you both feel CR is guilty (as stated in your posts over on IS, right?). Blue Eyes, GSR is a good thing to point out in support of your stance. I'm still undecided and waiting for more info. Should be an interesting week!

[William Anthony]

http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artMcNaughtonRule.php

[Its just me]

From the released documents now it does seem that the GSR particles were found on his sleeve, the chest area of his shirt and the thighs of his pants.

Strange if innocent and just walked into a cloud of white smoke why he doesn't have GSR particles in general overall areas of his clothing. They all seem to be on the front part of his clothing. Hmmm the places they would be found if he were the shooter and not just an eye witness that came into white smoke swirling and sifting down everywhere.

imo


I think I remember reading that the pants and shirt were put into the same bag when collected. I know very little about the transfer of GSR particles but I think one could argue that transfer is possible. mhoo. fep

[FDInLaw]

http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artMcNaughtonRule.php
From link (Thanks WA!):

The first famous legal test for insanity came in 1843, in the McNaughton case. Englishman Daniel McNaughton shot and killed the secretary of the British Prime Minister, believing that the Prime Minister was conspiring against him. The court acquitted McNaughton "by reason of insanity," and he was placed in a mental institution for the rest of his life. However, the case caused a public uproar, and Queen Victoria ordered the court to develop a stricter test for insanity.

The "McNaughton rule" was a standard to be applied by the jury, after hearing medical testimony from prosecution and defense experts. The rule created a presumption of sanity, unless the defense proved "at the time of committing the act, the accused was laboring under such a defect of reason, from disease of the mind, as not to know the nature and quality of the act he was doing or, if he did know it, that he did not know what he was doing was wrong."

The McNaughton rule became the standard for insanity in the United States and the United Kingdom, and is still the standard for insanity in almost half of the states.

[Jadedblueeyes]

From your post count, it looks like you hung out here a lot (lol). :biggrin:

Now, you both feel CR is guilty (as stated in your posts over on IS, right?). Blue Eyes, GSR is a good thing to point out in support of your stance. I'm still undecided and waiting for more info. Should be an interesting week!

Yes, unfortunately, FD, I do believe he is guilty of these crimes.

I sure hope the Judge mandates that he gets extensive mental therapy for years.

imo

[William Anthony]

I think it would be a hard to sell the idea that the GSR only transferred from the pants to the chest and sleeve area of the shirt. However, it may not be an impossibility.

[Its just me]

http://www.forensic-psych.com/articles/artMcNaughtonRule.php

Isn't this dealing with adults? Incompetence because age does not permit fully understanding the concept of the legal issues is the issue in this case.
Maybe an insanity argument could be used if the child was determined to be competent to understand and communicate as an adult. fep

[Its just me]

I think it would be a hard to sell the idea that the GSR only transferred from the pants to the chest and sleeve area of the shirt. However, it may not be an impossibility.

Do I understand the benefit of doubt correct?

[Jadedblueeyes]

I think it would be a hard to sell the idea that the GSR only transferred from the pants to the chest and sleeve area of the shirt. However, it may not be an impossibility.

Oh I think a defense attorney could argue anything. We have seen them do it, however I just don't think it is feasible, that the GSR would have just been transfered in the areas it was found.

imoo

[Its just me]

Yes, unfortunately, FD, I do believe he is guilty of these crimes.

I sure hope the Judge mandates that he gets extensive mental therapy for years.

imo

Why not hope the Judge mandates mental therapy only until a professional no longer feels it is needed. I don't understand the "years" if it's not needed. fep

[William Anthony]

Oh I think a defense attorney could argue anything. We have seen them do it, however I just don't think it is feasible, that the GSR would have just been transfered in the areas it was found.

imoo

I did not mean to imply that the defense would not argue it, only that it would be hard for me to buy. I think we are agreeing.

[William Anthony]

Do I understand the benefit of doubt correct?

Yes, until proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Isn't this dealing with adults? Incompetence because age does not permit fully understanding the concept of the legal issues is the issue in this case.
Maybe an insanity argument could be used if the child was determined to be competent to understand and communicate as an adult. fep

I would think so and the juvenile competency standards are different from adult competency from what I have read.

Here they are only trying to assess him to see if he is age competent to stand trial to be able to assist his defense team and understand the proceedings of the trial.

IMO, I don't think either expert will have the opinion that he did not know the wrongfulness of his acts or that he was insane at the time.

I don't think this plea deal has anything to do with an insanity plea.

JMO

[William Anthony]

Isn't this dealing with adults? Incompetence because age does not permit fully understanding the concept of the legal issues is the issue in this case.
Maybe an insanity argument could be used if the child was determined to be competent to understand and communicate as an adult. fep

This is from the case law link I provided.

(d) If any person tried upon an indictment or information for an offense, or tried in the juvenile court of the District of Columbia for an offense, is acquitted solely on the ground that he was insane at the time of its commission, the court shall order such person to be confined in a hospital for the mentally ill.'

[Jadedblueeyes]

Why not hope the Judge mandates mental therapy only until a professional no longer feels it is needed. I don't understand the "years" if it's not needed. fep

IMO, it will take years to try to "fix" this boy.

imo

[Jadedblueeyes]

I did not mean to imply that the defense would not argue it, only that it would be hard for me to buy. I think we are agreeing.

Yes, I think we are WA!:)

I have to get the feel (not literally lol) of the posters again. It has been a long time since I have posted here. Pleae be patient, I will get the hang of it.

imoo

[William Anthony]

I would think so and the juvenile competency standards are different from adult competency from what I have read.

Here they are only trying to assess him to see if he is age competent to stand trial to be able to assist his defense team and understand the proceedings of the trial.

IMO, I don't think either expert will have the opinion that he did not know the wrongfulness of his acts or that he was insane at the time.

I don't think this plea deal has anything to do with an insanity plea.

JMO

You may be correct but, judging from the transcript of the alleged confession, I cannot rule it out. The child obviously thought it was right to shoot someone to end their suffering. To me this indicates that he may not have realized that it was wrong to kill someone in the first place, if he did it. Although, if he did it, one might argue that he invented the story to cover up his wrong doings. Since the information we have received is that the child is severely disturbed and he will not be receiving jail time if the plea is accepted, I am not ruling out that possibility. The McNaughton rules allows for a mental defect whether that is caused by a callousness to life due to hunting or a result of abuse.

[Its just me]

IMO, it will take years to try to "fix" this boy.

imo

Do you have inside information that has not been made public to base your opinion on? fep

[William Anthony]

Yes, I think we are WA!:)

I have to get the feel (not literally lol) of the posters again. It has been a long time since I have posted here. Pleae be patient, I will get the hang of it.

imoo

I will be patient, as I am so often misunderstood. :)

[Jadedblueeyes]

You may be correct but, judging from the transcript of the alleged confession, I cannot rule it out. The child obviously thought it was right to shoot someone to end their suffering. To me this indicates that he may not have realized that it was wrong to kill someone in the first place, if he did it. Although, if he did it, one might argue that he invented the story to cover up his wrong doings. Since the information we have received is that the child is severely disturbed and he will not be receiving jail time if the plea is accepted, I am not ruling out that possibility. The McNaughton rules allows for a mental defect whether that is caused by a callousness to life due to hunting or a result of abuse.

I do understand what you are saying William.

Personally, I think the interview shows how well this child can lie and not skip a beat. He was very self assured when he began telling his tale. Even seemed to be enjoying leading the officers as he spun his tale, drawing detail maps, giving detailed info on how the house was arranged. I don't think he will have any insanity issues that rise to the standard that must be met by the judicial standard. Even if he was a fledging psychopath with a conduct disorder or had intermittent explosive disorder this would not make him legally insane imo.

I think his story of ending their pain and suffering was just that. He is one strange kid now that is for sure, imo because even if that is true, which I believe he shot all 10 shots, it shows somehow he wanted to twist his murderous acts to show he was some kind of sick twisted hero. But really I think it was like most suspects who give a little but not the entire story. He knew he couldn't say he shot them all 10 times. I do think this boy is of a higher intelligence for his age.

Millions and millions of families hunt game in America. It is certainly not a callous act. Slaughterhouses are much more inhumane to an animal than shooting an animal and making sure they are killed instantly when they don't even know it is going to happen.

If that were true and the hunting made him that way, we would have an epidemic of monumental proportions throughout our country, because millions of young children his age and even younger go hunting with their families. I have hunted small game ever since I was 7 years old. Never had a murderous thought then or in my entire life against anyone.

imoo

[William Anthony]

I do understand what you are saying William.

Personally, I think the interview shows how well this child can lie and not skip a beat. He was very self assured when he began telling his tale. Even seemed to be enjoying leading the officers as he spun his tale, drawing detail maps, giving detailed info on how the house was arranged. I don't think he will have any insanity issues that rise to the standard that must be met by the judicial standard. Even if he was a fledging psychopath with a conduct disorder or had intermittent explosive disorder this would not make him legally insane imo.

I think his story of ending their pain and suffering was just that. He is one strange kid now that is for sure, imo because even if that is true, which I believe he shot all 10 shots, it shows somehow he wanted to twist his murderous acts to show he was some kind of sick twisted hero. But really I think it was like most suspects who give a little but not the entire story. He knew he couldn't say he shot them all 10 times. I do think this boy is of a higher intelligence for his age.

Millions and millions of families hunt game in America. It is certainly not a callous act. Slaughterhouses are much more inhumane to an animal than shooting an animal and making sure they are killed instantly when they don't even know it is going to happen.

If that were true and the hunting made him that way, we would have an epidemic of monumental proportions throughout our country, because millions of young children his age and even younger go hunting with their families. I have hunted small game ever since I was 7 years old. Never had a murderous thought then or in my entire life against anyone.

imoo

I have never hunted animals in my life. I can think of no reasons to kill an animal other than for food or in self defense. The only reason I can think of to kill a person is self defense. I won't disagree with the virtue of slaughterhouses over hunting but wonder what would happen if the animals had weapons and new how to use them. :) I don't think it is possible for me to become a vegetarian, so I find no fault with either.

I do know that similar things effect different people differently. One child of an abuser may come to hate abuse as with the child of an alcoholic, while another child may grow to be an abuser or an alcoholic. I find a lot of credibility in your argument that the child was highly intelligent and may have fabricated a story, which to me would indicate he knew what he did was wrong. However, without the reports of the psychologists or psychiatrists, we may not be able to appreciate (pun intended) what the child did not appreciate. I think from the information we have thus far I would tend to agree with your view of things.

[Jadedblueeyes]

I have never hunted animals in my life. I can think of no reasons to kill an animal other than for food or in self defense. The only reason I can think of to kill a person is self defense. I won't disagree with the virtue of slaughterhouses over hunting but wonder what would happen if the animals had weapons and new how to use them. :) I don't think it is possible for me to become a vegetarian, so I find no fault with either.

I do know that similar things effect different people differently. One child of an abuser may come to hate abuse as with the child of an alcoholic, while another child may grow to be an abuser or an alcoholic. I find a lot of credibility in your argument that the child was highly intelligent and may have fabricated a story, which to me would indicate he knew what he did was wrong. However, without the reports of the psychologists or psychiatrists, we may not be able to appreciate (pun intended) what the child did not appreciate. I think from the information we have thus far I would tend to agree with your view of things.

I do understand it is a foreign concept for those who do not hunt nor want to do so. I imagine if the animals had weapons there would be no meat killed by hunters or by slaughterhouses but most humans are meat eaters.

My family are not trophy hunters. We eat what we kill. Or we kill what we call varmints that destroy crops or those who do damage to our lawns and grass root systems or can harm pets and small children. We have a terrible problem with moles in our area and have wild coyotes that kill farm animals and even pets that are in a fenced in back yard.

St. John is a very rural area and it also has many who hunt for their food imo. I would gather to guess that most in that town possess hunting weapons. Also prairie dogs are big destroyers of root systems and they are allowed to be killed according to the DNR in Arizona.

I believe his covering up his crime shows very well that he knew this was very wrong.

You are correct, we may never know what the psychologists thought if this boy pleads his case out.

imoo

[SaraSidle]

From your post count, it looks like you hung out here a lot (lol). :biggrin:

Now, you both feel CR is guilty (as stated in your posts over on IS, right?). Blue Eyes, GSR is a good thing to point out in support of your stance. I'm still undecided and waiting for more info. Should be an interesting week!

I totally agree with FDI. Welcome back Jadedblueeyes!!!!!!! Sara

[William Anthony]

I do understand it is a foreign concept for those who do not hunt nor want to do so. I imagine if the animals had weapons there would be no meat killed by hunters or by slaughterhouses but most humans are meat eaters.

My family are not trophy hunters. We eat what we kill. Or we kill what we call varmints that destroy crops or those who do damage to our lawns and grass root systems or can harm pets and small children. We have a terrible problem with moles in our area and have wild coyotes that kill farm animals and even pets that are in a fenced in back yard.

St. John is a very rural area and it also has many who hunt for their food imo. I would gather to guess that most in that town possess hunting weapons. Also prairie dogs are big destroyers of root systems and they are allowed to be killed according to the DNR in Arizona.

I believe his covering up his crime shows very well that he knew this was very wrong.

You are correct, we may never know what the psychologists thought if this boy pleads his case out.

imoo

I agree with you for the most part. I think I would agree totally, if the interview had been conducted immediately after the crimes and the child's answers were the same. What I Mean is that the child had time to talk to others and could have been told what he did was wrong, if he did anything, and made up the story. I wonder what his state of mind was at the time, if he committed the crimes.

[Jadedblueeyes]

I totally agree with FDI. Welcome back Jadedblueeyes!!!!!!! Sara

Well hi there Sara!:seeya:

Thank you so much for welcoming me back!

I am glad to be back posting among such great posters again.

imoo

[Its just me]

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/17/20090217stjohns-boy0217-ON.html

Competency a question mark in St. Johns case
Feb. 17, 2009 04:24 PM
Associated Press
FLAGSTAFF - A hearing to determine whether a 9-year-old St. Johns boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man is fit to stand trial likely will be vacated if the boy accepts a plea deal offered in the case.
But attorneys and legal experts say that doesn't mean Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/17/20090217stjohns-boy0217-ON.html) won't make a determination on whether the boy understands the proceedings before he considers the plea agreement on Thursday.
"Nobody is going to be allowed to plead guilty if there is a question about their competency," said Jack Chin, a criminal law professor at the University of Arizona. "If their plea deal is entered and accepted, that's going to be because the judge came to the decision that he is competent."
The boy, who was 8 at the time of the shootings, has pleaded not guilty to two counts of premeditated murder. Police say he used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father and 39-year-old Timothy Romans as they returned home from work on Nov. 5.
Attorneys in the case won't reveal what plea the boy might enter at a hearing Thursday in St. Johns and whether it would involve the current charges. The boy still must sign the agreement, and Roca must accept the terms before a sentencing date is set.
Court administrator Betty Smith said Tuesday that Roca has reviewed the reports from two experts who evaluated the boy. The results are sealed, but defense attorneys said in court documents that the expert they nominated deemed the boy unfit to stand trial.
The court calendar still lists a Feb. 27 competency hearing in which the experts would testify.
Whether adults or juveniles are offered a plea agreement, a judge must agree that they are knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently entering into the deal before the defendant can sign it.
Among the questions a judge asks juveniles before they decide whether to accept a plea deal are whether they understand the nature of the charges against them, the presumption of innocence, possible sentences and the right to go to trial.
"There will be a colloquy of discussions to make sure the person is competent to do so," Chin said. "You have to know you're charged with a crime that could result in bad things happening and be able to talk to your defense."
High-profile Arizona defense attorney Mike Piccarreta, who is not involved in the St. Johns case, said the boy's attorneys likely agreed that their client had a basic understanding of the legal process before negotiating a plea agreement.
"If your client is incompetent, then you have a serious problem if the lawyer believes that entering into a plea agreement," he said.
In late November, less than a month after the shootings, prosecutors wrote in court documents that a plea deal had been offered to the boy that would resolve the charges in juvenile court. Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/17/20090217stjohns-boy0217-ON.html) said at the time that he was considering the offer but was unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings.
Brewer (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/02/17/20090217stjohns-boy0217-ON.html) and prosecutor Brad Carlyon declined Tuesday to discuss the competency issue, citing a gag order in the case that largely prohibits them from commenting.
Attorneys on both sides have been negotiating the latest plea agreement offered up by prosecutors for the past month.
Brewer said defense attorneys had to consider whether they could communicate with the boy regarding any rights he would waive in a plea agreement and whether he understood that.
Roca could consider input from the attorneys on whether they believe the boy understands the proceedings, but Brewer said "the main burden falls on the judge to make that determination."

[Jadedblueeyes]

You know, I have been thinking about when JR questioned the defendant in the probable cause hearing.

Roca evidently thought that the boy understood the charges against him and his rights, at that time.

So who knows, he may think the boy does understand the plea deal too.

I never thought any of the experts would have an opinion that he did not know the wrongfulness of his acts anyway.

Judge Roca has all the evidence before him at his fingertips, not just a part of it that has been released on the court site. So he will know if the plea lines up with the evidence. Especially if he pleads guilty. Usually when DAs plea a case they may reduce the charges to a lessor charge but accountability of the acts must be present in the plea deal.

imoo

[William Anthony]

You know, I have been thinking about when JR questioned the defendant in the probable cause hearing.

Roca evidently thought that the boy understood the charges against him and his rights, at that time.

So who knows, he may think the boy does understand the plea deal too.

I never thought any of the experts would have an opinion that he did not know the wrongfulness of his acts anyway.

Judge Roca has all the evidence before him at his fingertips, not just a part of it that has been released on the court site. So he will know if the plea lines up with the evidence. Especially if he pleads guilty. Usually when DAs plea a case they may reduce the charges to a lessor charge but accountability of the acts must be present in the plea deal.

imoo

You may be right in that the child was ruled incompetent and we have assumed the basis of the ruling was that the child could not understand the charges against him and aid in his own defense, IIRC. What I mean is that we have assumed this was the defense expert's conclusion. If the state's expert agreed with the incompetency evaluation, then it would not be in the child's best interest to accept a plea, imho, which leaves us still not knowing the basis of the plea deal, other than it is believed to be in the best interest of all. A guilty plea is as feasible as some others, imho. If that is the case, then I think there will be an outcry, concerning whether or not the punishment fits the crime.

[Its just me]

I'm thinking there is a hearing today.

:rose: Prayers for God's guidance for all involved fep

[Its just me]

http://www.azfamily.com/video/localnews-index.html?nvid=333431


UNCUT: Mike Watkiss interviews lawyer of child accused of murder

February 18th, 2009
On the eve of his young client's change of plea, attorney Ron Wood talked to 3TV's Mike Watkiss. Wood represents the 9-year-old St. Johns boy accused of killing his father and his father's friend late last year.
_____________________________________

It was kind of difficult to hear Attorney Wood. I could after I adjusted my volume. fep

[FDInLaw]

MEMORANDUM OF AGREEMENT has been posted!!!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[William Anthony]

You know, I have been thinking about when JR questioned the defendant in the probable cause hearing.

Roca evidently thought that the boy understood the charges against him and his rights, at that time.

So who knows, he may think the boy does understand the plea deal too.

I never thought any of the experts would have an opinion that he did not know the wrongfulness of his acts anyway.

Judge Roca has all the evidence before him at his fingertips, not just a part of it that has been released on the court site. So he will know if the plea lines up with the evidence. Especially if he pleads guilty. Usually when DAs plea a case they may reduce the charges to a lessor charge but accountability of the acts must be present in the plea deal.

imoo

It seems by the memorandum of agreement that you have come closest to what will transpire.

http://law.justia.com/arizona/codes/title13/01102.html

[dan_uk]

Arizona boy pleads guilty in deaths of father, other man

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/02/19/arizona.boy.homicide/index.html

[Its just me]

MEMORANDUM OF AGREEMENT has been posted!!!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

Thanks, I can't say I have any complaints. I pray the child gets the kind of professional help that will help him become a successful adult and I also pray he will have the love and guidance all children need. fep

[samanthajane13]

Arizona 9-year-old pleads guilty in shooting death
By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 56 mins ago



ST. JOHNS, Ariz. – A 9-year-old boy accused of methodically shooting his father and his father's roommate to death last fall pleaded guilty Thursday to one count of negligent homicide, settling the case that shocked and mystified the nation.

Under a plea agreement, he pleaded guilty in the death of the roommate and charges of premeditated murder for both deaths were dropped. Police said the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot the men as they returned home from work Nov. 5.

The boy's plea spares the rural community of about 4,000 from what would have been an emotional trial and prevents the boy from serving time in the state juvenile corrections system or being tried as an adult.

He was polite in court and was never asked to explain any motive for the killings.

The boy has not yet been sentenced. He could be sent to the county juvenile system, which would keep him close to his relatives. Apache County Attorney Michael Whiting wants the boy to undergo extensive mental evaluations and treatment, an option allowed by the plea agreement.

Defense attorney Ron Wood said the plea deal was a compromise that wasn't expected to please everyone.

"I don't know it was the best thing. That remains to be seen," he said. "This resolution of the case causes more potential for working out in (the boy's) favor."

The boy's mother cried throughout the hearing and, through her lawyer, objected to the plea deal. But Superior Court Judge Michael Roca accepted it.

The boy was 8 when he was accused of shooting his 29-year-old father, Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, a co-worker who also rented a room from Romero.

Police in St. Johns found Romero and Romans shot to death after the boy ran to a neighbor's house. He was questioned after Romans' wife raised suspicions about him, and in a videotape released by prosecutors, he admitted pulling the trigger.

Police reports say the boy told a state Child Protective Services worker that his 1,000th spanking would be his last.

Prosecutors and defense attorneys struggled with what to do with a child who was charged with murder while he was so young. No child 8 years old or younger committed homicide in the United States during 2005-2007, according to FBI statistics.

Whiting said he spoke with the Romero family before giving final approval to the plea deal, and they agreed it was in the child's best interest for him not to be forced to admit to killing his father.

"If the kid is ever going to have a chance at a normal life, how is he going to deal with `I pleaded guilty to killing my dad,'" Whiting said.

A spokesman for the Romans family, John Andreas, said Romans' wife and two daughters were disappointed with the plea deal and that the case appeared to focus more on the boy than the victims.

"Tim is still dead. The boy took away something that is not replaceable," Andreas said. "There is no satisfaction."

Friends in the close-knit community said Romero, who had full custody of his son, was a caring father who seemed to be doing all he could to raise a polite and respectful boy.

Authorities said they had no record of any complaints filed about the boy with Arizona Child Protective Services and that the youngster had no disciplinary record at school.

Talk of a plea deal emerged less than a month after the shootings. The boy's other defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, said at the time that he was unsure of his client's ability to understand the proceedings.

In court Thursday, the boy was more talkative and relaxed than in previous hearings, laughing and chatting with his lawyer and mother.

But his demeanor became more serious as the hearing got under way. The judge questioned him for nearly half an hour, about whether he understood his rights, the terms of the plea agreement and the consequences.

The boy answered respectfully and politely, using "yes, sir" or "no, sir" in most cases.

Roca drew laughter from the boy when he told him that once he turns 18, "you don't have to worry about me anymore, and that's a good thing."

As the judge wrapped up the questioning, he asked the boy if "this is what you want to do?" The boy responded "yes, sir."

The boy is due back in court for a pre-sentencing hearing on March 5.

Under the agreement, the judge will decide later whether the boy will be institutionalized or live with relatives. He will receive diagnostic evaluations and mental health examinations when he's 12, 15 and 17. The reviews are intended partly to determine whether the boy will pose any danger in the future.

The boy also won't be allowed to enroll in any public or private school unless evaluations determine that he doesn't pose a threat to himself or anyone else.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090220/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks, I can't say I have any complaints. I pray the child gets the kind of professional help that will help him become a successful adult and I also pray he will have the love and guidance all children need. fep

Well said. This little one is going to be in my head and heart for a long time.

[sharlock]

Well said. This little one is going to be in my head and heart for a long time.
Same here. I am very concered though that hos mother disagrees with the plea deal. She believes still that he is innocent and I am uneasy that this deal may be in CR's best interest in that it makes sure he gets help and makes it come to an end but what if he didn't do it?

[sharlock]

DPS REPORT Page 3 "On 11/10/2008 at around 1900 hours, I was asked to set up a perimeter at the crime scene at 15th Place West and 7th North while a search warrant was being served and a search of the house was performed.


During this time, I was approached by (NAME), a person I have known for some time. She asked me what was going on and I told her that we were serving a search warrant. We then began to have conversation and (NAME) told me she had been in the house the day of the homicide, waiting for (THE BOY) to get home but left because she had to get to volleyball practice. She told me (THE BOY) didn't get home before she left. I told her she would want to notify the officers in charge of the investigation and she told me she didn't want to get involved.
"

(resource: http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/bishop%239%2310. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2Jpc2hvcCUyMzklMjMxMC5wZG Y=))

[sharlock]

I haven't followed this as closely as I should have lately but it is odd there is a witness claiming he saw a man get in and drive away from the residence at a fast speed.
It concerns me that only two bullets match the chipmunk gun and that fingerprints on the gun don't match anyone yet.


http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dpslab. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2Rwc2xhYi5wZGY=)

http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/DPS%20LAB%20REPORT%202-10-09-%20002057-002059. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL0RQUyUyMExBQiUyMFJFUE9SVC UyMDItMTAtMDktJTIwMDAyMDU3LTAwMjA1OS5wZGY=)

[sharlock]

Testimony in the DPS reports state that TR was a mid-level meth dealer with street level sellers who he was in charge of.
Also, TR had notified a woman that "someone wanted to kill (him)" just ONE WEEK PRIOR to the murders!

"AGENCY St. Johns Police Department DR NO.
2008743674
St.
Johns, AZ 85936
Page 1 oft
FILE NO.
08110735 OFFICER RODRIGUEZ, #902
DATE December 02, 2008 NAME(S) (BOY'S NAME)
ITEMS:
#. 3-6, 7A, 9-14 all received not analyzed.

#7.Chipmunk .22 caliber rifle, serial number 44270.

#8. Box containing .22 caliber cartridges.


EXAMINATION REQUESTED: Latent Prints

RESULTS / INTERPRETATIONS:
The items listed were examined for latent prints and prints of value for comparison were developed on items # 7 and 8.


Complete inked major case prints of subject(s) must be submitted to continue this case. Please do not submit copies of prints.
"
(resource: http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dpslab. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2Rwc2xhYi5wZGY=)

DR NO.
2008743674)

http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/bishop%239%2310. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2Jpc2hvcCUyMzklMjMxMC5wZG Y=)

http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/boneckel%2312%2313%2314%20pgs%20000352%20-%20000355. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2JvbmVja2VsJTIzMTIlMjMxMy UyMzE0JTIwcGdzJTIwMDAwMzUyJTIwLSUyMDAwMDM1NS5wZGY= )

[sharlock]

DPS REPORT Page 3 "On 11/10/2008 at around 1900 hours, I was asked to set up a perimeter at the crime scene at 15th Place West and 7th North while a search warrant was being served and a search of the house was performed.


During this time, I was approached by (NAME), a person I have known for some time. She asked me what was going on and I told her that we were serving a search warrant. We then began to have conversation and (NAME) told me she had been in the house the day of the homicide, waiting for (THE BOY) to get home but left because she had to get to volleyball practice. She told me (THE BOY) didn't get home before she left. I told her she would want to notify the officers in charge of the investigation and she told me she didn't want to get involved.
"

(resource: http://www. november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide. com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/bishop%239%2310. pdf (http://www.msplinks.com/MDFodHRwOi8vd3d3Lm5vdmVtYmVyMjAwOHN0am9obnNkb3VibG Vob21pY2lkZS5jb20vYXBwbGljYXRpb25zL0RvY3VtZW50TGli cmFyeU1hbmFnZXIvdXBsb2FkL2Jpc2hvcCUyMzklMjMxMC5wZG Y=))

[sharlock]

I feel worse and worse about the fact they let this child sign a legal document that his Mother believes he does not fully understand. I am not sure I am ok with the precedent set today especially as I think there is quite a lot of doubt as to whether this child committed the crime at all.

[Its just me]

I feel worse and worse about the fact they let this child sign a legal document that his Mother believes he does not fully understand. I am not sure I am ok with the precedent set today especially as I think there is quite a lot of doubt as to whether this child committed the crime at all.


Thanks for posting and caring. I share your opinions. I feel bad there was even a case that got to the point it did yesterday. I strongly believe (know) there was a rush to judgment to arrest the child. I could list several things that are wrong with in the LE and the investigation but I'm not. I'm only stating my opinion and don't care to argue with someone who most likely will disagree with me or try to convince anyone I'm right....or don't care for anyone to try to convince me I'm wrong but I do like to read what others think. I read other boards and the quoting posts with bickering become disgusting at times. LOL I’ve been there and done that and refuse to do it again.
Once the child was arrested and charged because of a so called illegal confession it had to be dealt with by the courts. By the prosecution offering a plea dropping the charges to the degree they did is clearing saying there is not the evidence to convict the child of first degree murder (s). A nine year old is not capable of understand anything that relates to 10 years down the road. (Period) I can only hope the judge allowed an incompetent child to accept the prosecution’s plea offer because it was in the child’s best interest beyond the moment at hand.
I believe there are good reasons for the child’s defense to continue after the procedures that follow the plea deal are finalized by the judge but I’m not sure if there are financial means available for that to happen.
I firmly believe if the investigation had been handled differently the truth (what ever it is) would possible have come to light. As it is I doubt it will ever be known other than opinions and the smartest to the dumbest has one of those. What took place in court yesterday proves absolutely nothing. You have the judge ruling the child was competent to accept a plea but he questioned if he was competent to stand trial. That makes zero sense. IMHOO.

"All" involved have my deepest sympathy and sincere prayers. :rose: fep

[Jadedblueeyes]

Arizona boy, 9, pleads guilty in shooting


The boy was accused of killing his father and another man. In his plea deal, the charge involving his father is dropped. The boy's sentence will depend on mental health evaluations.
By Ashley Powers
February 20, 2009
Reporting from Las Vegas -- A 9-year-old Arizona boy accused of shooting his father and another man to death at their rural home pleaded guilty Thursday to one count of negligent homicide, a development that will spare the beleaguered town of St. Johns a highly publicized trial.

The November slayings drew international attention to the town of 4,000 after a police video was released in which the boy, clad in pajama pants, appeared to confess to shooting his father, Vincent Romero, and family friend Timothy Romans with a .22-caliber rifle.


With the boy's guilty plea Thursday in connection with Romans' death, prosecutors dropped the charge related to his father. The child's sentence -- including whether he remains in his mother's care or enters the Apache County juvenile justice system -- will depend on upcoming mental health evaluations, a defense attorney said.

"Part of the problem is I don't think any of us know what his problems are, if any, and how to solve them," Ron Wood said.

The boy's mother was unhappy with the plea agreement, Wood said, and sobbed through Thursday's hearing. But the boy wanted to end court proceedings as soon as possible, and signed the three-page agreement in shaky, oversized cursive.


"This is a resolution that, in my view, makes my client happy and includes the structure . . . that gives him the best shot at going back to being a little boy," Wood said.

Prosecutors intend to ask Judge Michael Roca that the third-grader remain in the county's juvenile system and undergo "extensive" mental health evaluations and treatment, Apache County Atty. Michael B. Whiting said in a statement. A pre-sentencing hearing is scheduled for March 5.

Whiting said that if the boy had been declared incompetent to stand trial in the course of further prosecution, he could have been released, and officials could not have tracked where he lived and whether he was getting help.

A spokesman for the Romans family told the Associated Press that the victim's wife and two daughters were disappointed with the plea agreement.

"The boy took away something that is not replaceable," John Andreas said. "There is no satisfaction."

A motive in the shootings is unclear. Many residents of the community said Romero and his new bride, Tiffany, were good caregivers.

The boy suggested he was tired of being spanked when he got into trouble, police reports said.

The boy, 8 at the time of the shootings, was initially considered a witness. He had a neighbor call authorities, and he said he saw a white vehicle with rimless back tires speeding away.

But Romans' wife was on the phone with her husband shortly before he died, and she told authorities that she heard the child calling for him. That contradicted what the boy initially told police: that he had discovered his father, 29, and Romans, 39, after the men were shot.

When police re-interviewed the boy, he appeared to confess to the slayings. No attorney or guardian was present, which shocked juvenile-justice advocates. That fact might have kept the interview from being admitted as evidence.

After the boy was charged, the police video was publicly released, and the no-stoplight town was overrun by TV news trucks.

On the tape, the boy says, "I think, um, I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think," and buries his face in his shirt.

ashley.powers@latimes.com
*************************************

I think Ron Wood's statement is profound. It speaks volumes that none of them have learned any reason why this boy would do what he did. They do not have a clue to what makes him tick and that all along as been of a great concern to the State and why they knew this plea would be the only way that it could be assured that this kid just doesn't walk without extensive mental therapy. It is in the best interest of the child and also society at large to try and found out why a child of this age is capable of such horrific acts.

While I do understand Eryn's stance I think she better weigh the options very carefully. If she appeals, it then again puts the murder charge concerning his father right back on the table. I think the defense team were very worried that Roca was seriously considering dismissing count one and knew if this boy was tried as an adult he could get major prison time. If these murders had been committed by an adult, I have no doubt the state, would have gone for the death penalty due to the the heinousness of the crimes. Now if they had tried him as an adult later on I don't think they would have gone necessarily with the death penalty but they would be asking for the defendant to do serious prison time such as Life or LWOP! That is a gamble that I dont think Eryn is willing to take, imo.

imoo

[William Anthony]

Arizona boy, 9, pleads guilty in shooting


The boy was accused of killing his father and another man. In his plea deal, the charge involving his father is dropped. The boy's sentence will depend on mental health evaluations.
By Ashley Powers
February 20, 2009
Reporting from Las Vegas -- A 9-year-old Arizona boy accused of shooting his father and another man to death at their rural home pleaded guilty Thursday to one count of negligent homicide, a development that will spare the beleaguered town of St. Johns a highly publicized trial.

The November slayings drew international attention to the town of 4,000 after a police video was released in which the boy, clad in pajama pants, appeared to confess to shooting his father, Vincent Romero, and family friend Timothy Romans with a .22-caliber rifle.


With the boy's guilty plea Thursday in connection with Romans' death, prosecutors dropped the charge related to his father. The child's sentence -- including whether he remains in his mother's care or enters the Apache County juvenile justice system -- will depend on upcoming mental health evaluations, a defense attorney said.

"Part of the problem is I don't think any of us know what his problems are, if any, and how to solve them," Ron Wood said.

The boy's mother was unhappy with the plea agreement, Wood said, and sobbed through Thursday's hearing. But the boy wanted to end court proceedings as soon as possible, and signed the three-page agreement in shaky, oversized cursive.


"This is a resolution that, in my view, makes my client happy and includes the structure . . . that gives him the best shot at going back to being a little boy," Wood said.

Prosecutors intend to ask Judge Michael Roca that the third-grader remain in the county's juvenile system and undergo "extensive" mental health evaluations and treatment, Apache County Atty. Michael B. Whiting said in a statement. A pre-sentencing hearing is scheduled for March 5.

Whiting said that if the boy had been declared incompetent to stand trial in the course of further prosecution, he could have been released, and officials could not have tracked where he lived and whether he was getting help.

A spokesman for the Romans family told the Associated Press that the victim's wife and two daughters were disappointed with the plea agreement.

"The boy took away something that is not replaceable," John Andreas said. "There is no satisfaction."

A motive in the shootings is unclear. Many residents of the community said Romero and his new bride, Tiffany, were good caregivers.

The boy suggested he was tired of being spanked when he got into trouble, police reports said.

The boy, 8 at the time of the shootings, was initially considered a witness. He had a neighbor call authorities, and he said he saw a white vehicle with rimless back tires speeding away.

But Romans' wife was on the phone with her husband shortly before he died, and she told authorities that she heard the child calling for him. That contradicted what the boy initially told police: that he had discovered his father, 29, and Romans, 39, after the men were shot.

When police re-interviewed the boy, he appeared to confess to the slayings. No attorney or guardian was present, which shocked juvenile-justice advocates. That fact might have kept the interview from being admitted as evidence.

After the boy was charged, the police video was publicly released, and the no-stoplight town was overrun by TV news trucks.

On the tape, the boy says, "I think, um, I think I shot my dad because he was suffering, I think," and buries his face in his shirt.

ashley.powers@latimes.com
*************************************

I think Ron Wood's statement is profound. It speaks volumes that none of them have learned any reason why this boy would do what he did. They do not have a clue to what makes him tick and that all along as been of a great concern to the State and why they knew this plea would be the only way that it could be assured that this kid just doesn't walk without extensive mental therapy. It is in the best interest of the child and also society at large to try and found out why a child of this age is capable of such horrific acts.

While I do understand Eryn's stance I think she better weigh the options very carefully. If she appeals, it then again puts the murder charge concerning his father right back on the table. I think the defense team were very worried that Roca was seriously considering dismissing count one and knew if this boy was tried as an adult he could get major prison time. If these murders had been committed by an adult, I have no doubt the state, would have gone for the death penalty due to the the heinousness of the crimes. Now if they had tried him as an adult later on I don't think they would have gone necessarily with the death penalty but they would be asking for the defendant to do serious prison time such as Life or LWOP! That is a gamble that I dont think Eryn is willing to take, imo.

imoo

A well reasoned and articulated post, imho. I have not the wisdom of Solomon and can only trust that the resolution was in the best interest of all involved.

[William Anthony]

I feel worse and worse about the fact they let this child sign a legal document that his Mother believes he does not fully understand. I am not sure I am ok with the precedent set today especially as I think there is quite a lot of doubt as to whether this child committed the crime at all.

I do understand and appreciate your concerns and do not know whether his lawyer of his mother knew best in this instance.

[martin II]

test post only

[FDInLaw]

Check the court site, there are more documents up:

State and Defence Exhibit Lists.

[William Anthony]

Check the court site, there are more documents up:

State and Defence Exhibit Lists.

Thanks, for the updates. It will be interesting to see how the courts handle the 11 year old, who allegedly murdered his step mother and her unborn child, in comparison to this case. Are you from Australia?

[FDInLaw]

Thanks, for the updates. It will be interesting to see how the courts handle the 11 year old, who allegedly murdered his step mother and her unborn child, in comparison to this case. Are you from Australia?Huh? :shrug:



(My location is posted.)

[William Anthony]

Huh? :shrug:



(My location is posted.)

Sorry, I did not check and only asked because of the way you spelled defense. I was able to determine another poster's alleged location by that spelling. I think it is commonly spelled as you spelled it in Australia. I was just wondering nothing more and it appears I was being lazy, :).

[FDInLaw]

Sorry, I did not check and only asked because of the way you spelled defense. I was able to determine another poster's alleged location by that spelling. I think it is commonly spelled as you spelled it in Australia. I was just wondering nothing more and it appears I was being lazy, :).
LOL. I wondered if I had made a spelling mistake. . . not a strong suit of mine. :o



Defense, defense, defense. . .

[William Anthony]

LOL. I wondered if I had made a spelling mistake. . . not a strong suit of mine. :o



Defense, defense, defense. . .

Mine either. Thank goodness for spell checkers.

[Seashell]

Once the child was arrested and charged because of a so called illegal confession it had to be dealt with by the courts. By the prosecution offering a plea dropping the charges to the degree they did is clearing saying there is not the evidence to convict the child of first degree murder (s). A nine year old is not capable of understand anything that relates to 10 years down the road. (Period) I can only hope the judge allowed an incompetent child to accept the prosecution’s plea offer because it was in the child’s best interest beyond the moment at hand.
I believe there are good reasons for the child’s defense to continue after the procedures that follow the plea deal are finalized by the judge but I’m not sure if there are financial means available for that to happen.
I firmly believe if the investigation had been handled differently the truth (what ever it is) would possible have come to light. As it is I doubt it will ever be known other than opinions and the smartest to the dumbest has one of those. What took place in court yesterday proves absolutely nothing. You have the judge ruling the child was competent to accept a plea but he questioned if he was competent to stand trial. That makes zero sense. IMHOO.

"All" involved have my deepest sympathy and sincere prayers. :rose: fep

I feel sad, so sad for this boy :rose:
ITA with everything you have written above.

[susie31023]

I feel sad, so sad for this boy :rose:
ITA with everything you have written above.

I totally agree SS. Also with everything you posted Feppy. So very very sad:rose:

[Jadedblueeyes]

I feel worse and worse about the fact they let this child sign a legal document that his Mother believes he does not fully understand. I am not sure I am ok with the precedent set today especially as I think there is quite a lot of doubt as to whether this child committed the crime at all.

I am not sure that a precedence was set by the boy agreeing to a plea deal. I would think since in Az a child 8 years and older can be convicted of a crime that this is not the first case where a child plead guilty. He may be the youngest defendant in double homicides but imo he is not the first young juvenile to plea a case down.

I really think this boy got a sweetheart deal because of his young age. Neither the defense or the State had ever had the unfortunate occasion to have a defendant/client this young accused of double homicides. Both the state and the defense said they had tried murder cases and they had tried juvenile cases but neither of them had tried one that encompassed double homicides being committed by a juvenile. I would think that the 13 boys that are in the St. John's detention center are there for far less crimes.

I think they all agreed in the end to give him this deal hoping and praying that the extensive mental treatment given to him will uncover why he was capable of such heinous acts and they hope that he is treatable in the 9 year time span, imo.

JMO

[sharlock]

I do understand and appreciate your concerns and do not know whether his lawyer of his mother knew best in this instance.
It is one of those cases where it is difficult looking from the outside in and not knowing all of the details that might be available to both sides. :shrug:
JBB, you could be right and he may have got a sweetheart deal but it is also true that he may have been jipped and unfortunately I am not as confident as you are that all was done it the child's best interests, however I will conceded that he seemed to have had excellent representation so perhaps I am wrong to be concerned?

[William Anthony]

It is one of those cases where it is difficult looking from the outside in and not knowing all of the details that might be available to both sides. :shrug:
JBB, you could be right and he may have got a sweetheart deal but it is also true that he may have been jipped and unfortunately I am not as confident as you are that all was done it the child's best interests, however I will conceded that he seemed to have had excellent representation so perhaps I am wrong to be concerned?

I don't think it is wrong for anyone to be concerned, considering the circumstances of this case. We will probably all remain somewhat in the dark and must place our trust in the judicial system. I think it is only natural for a parent to not believe his/her child is guilty of these crimes and she might be right. However, if she is wrong, we all want the child to receive the treatment he needs. Concern only shows an interest in justice and a desire for compassion, imho.

[Jadedblueeyes]

I don't think it is wrong for anyone to be concerned, considering the circumstances of this case. We will probably all remain somewhat in the dark and must place our trust in the judicial system. I think it is only natural for a parent to not believe his/her child is guilty of these crimes and she might be right. However, if she is wrong, we all want the child to receive the treatment he needs. Concern only shows an interest in justice and a desire for compassion, imho.

I agree, William. We should all be concerned how this boy turns out. It is in our best interest as well as his. We have no assurances that he can be treated to become a productive member of society and all we can hope for is the mental therapy plus medication, maybe, works for him. He/we have a 50/50 chance that it will work.

If we look back in history there have been adults killers who started murdering or raping at a young age and due to them being juveniles at the time they were let out much quicker and continued to do their crimes. Recently it seems many of these murders happen for the most foolish motives imaginable. I don't know if it has to do with some kids thinking it is the "ME ME ME" factor and the inability to accept "No."

While he is unique due to his age I am not sure he will be the last very young juvenile we hear about doing these same parricide or matricide homicides.

These kids are extremely rare. Only a little over 700 children a year comitt intentional homicides. While the stats on crime say that overall crime is down there is a 3% escalation in juvenile violent offenders. So we must all take all these defendants very seriously knowing that they will become adults in a few short years.

What sets this boy apart from other juveniles imo is the murder of Tim Romans. While some of these young children react impulsively on angry outburst felt toward their parents, most do not lay in wait and lure an unsuspecting man to come inside the home on the false pretenses that he needed him, only to be waiting there to end his life.

So imo this boy is an anomaly and in a league of his own. Now all we can hope is they are successful when they begin to peel away the "onion skin" to see what really makes this particular kid tick.

imoo

[William Anthony]

I agree, William. We should all be concerned how this boy turns out. It is in our best interest as well as his. We have no assurances that he can be treated to become a productive member of society and all we can hope for is the mental therapy plus medication, maybe, works for him. He/we have a 50/50 chance that it will work.

If we look back in history there have been adults killers who started murdering or raping at a young age and due to them being juveniles at the time they were let out much quicker and continued to do their crimes. Recently it seems many of these murders happen for the most foolish motives imaginable. I don't know if it has to do with some kids thinking it is the "ME ME ME" factor and the inability to accept "No."

While he is unique due to his age I am not sure he will be the last very young juvenile we hear about doing these same parricide or matricide homicides.

These kids are extremely rare. Only a little over 700 children a year comitt intentional homicides. While the stats on crime say that overall crime is down there is a 3% escalation in juvenile violent offenders. So we must all take all these defendants very seriously knowing that they will become adults in a few short years.

What sets this boy apart from other juveniles imo is the murder of Tim Romans. While some of these young children react impulsively on angry outburst felt toward their parents, most do not lay in wait and lure an unsuspecting man to come inside the home on the false pretenses that he needed him, only to be waiting there to end his life.

So imo this boy is an anomaly and in a league of his own. Now all we can hope is they are successful when they begin to peel away the "onion skin" to see what really makes this particular kid tick.

imoo

I think that you and Sharlock are both concerned about the results. I think there is a validity in both of your concerns, because we have received such limited information on the case. I do not doubt that, if the child did it, he suffered from some severe emotional and mental problems. I think the fact that the child was allowed to plea to such a reduced charge, considering the nature of the hideousness of the murders, based on that limited information we received, causes all of us to look in bewilderment and wonder what led the child to commit the murders, if he did. If on the other hand the child is innocent as the mother believes, we are left wondering why LE wanted to charge this child and why the child has not stated what he saw. I don't believe the child's original story that he arrived home and found the victims dead. It is more likely, imho, that, if he is innocent, he is protecting someone. I would think that the mother would have persuaded her child to come forward with what he knew, regardless of who the murder was.

[Jadedblueeyes]

I think that you and Sharlock are both concerned about the results. I think there is a validity in both of your concerns, because we have received such limited information on the case. I do not doubt that, if the child did it, he suffered from some severe emotional and mental problems. I think the fact that the child was allowed to plea to such a reduced charge, considering the nature of the hideousness of the murders, based on that limited information we received, causes all of us to look in bewilderment and wonder what led the child to commit the murders, if he did. If on the other hand the child is innocent as the mother believes, we are left wondering why LE wanted to charge this child and why the child has not stated what he saw. I don't believe the child's original story that he arrived home and found the victims dead. It is more likely, imho, that, if he is innocent, he is protecting someone. I would think that the mother would have persuaded her child to come forward with what he knew, regardless of who the murder was.

It truly is hard to ascertain what all this investigation entailed or what was uncovered due to the fact that only a fourth of the discovery documents have been made available to us, with the other 3/4 sealed.

I just do not think a child of this age would have such a stout resolution to protect someone this long. I believe if he knew who did this he would have told when he was locked away in detention and his freedom taken away. IMOO, I do believe he is solely responsible for these crimes.

I can certainly understand Eryn's position. I don't think she would even believe him if he told her in great detail how he did it. The refusal to believe his guilt is nothing more than a coping or protective mechanism imo. We have seen grown defendants who's mothers always protest they are innocent even though the evidence states the opposite. I just think that is how mothers' cope. No one wants to be the mother of someone accused of such horrible crimes.

However I do see a problem ahead for Eryn. On another site she left a message that her ex is fighting her for custody of their little daughter. I do think the father is in a good position to be awarded custody of their child. No matter the sentence he got or didn't get, this is going to follow this boy and his mother wherever they go and it really isn't fair IMO that his little sister should shoulder the humiliation and shame for the sins of her brother.

imoo

[William Anthony]

It truly is hard to ascertain what all this investigation entailed or what was uncovered due to the fact that only a fourth of the discovery documents have been made available to us, with the other 3/4 sealed.

I just do not think a child of this age would have such a stout resolution to protect someone this long. I believe if he knew who did this he would have told when he was locked away in detention and his freedom taken away. IMOO, I do believe he is solely responsible for these crimes.

I can certainly understand Eryn's position. I don't think she would even believe him if he told her in great detail how he did it. The refusal to believe his guilt is nothing more than a coping or protective mechanism imo. We have seen grown defendants who's mothers always protest they are innocent even though the evidence states the opposite. I just think that is how mothers' cope. No one wants to be the mother of someone accused of such horrible crimes.

However I do see a problem ahead for Eryn. On another site she left a message that her ex is fighting her for custody of their little daughter. I do think the father is in a good position to be awarded custody of their child. No matter the sentence he got or didn't get, this is going to follow this boy and his mother wherever they go and it really isn't fair IMO that his little sister should shoulder the humiliation and shame for the sins of her brother.

imoo

I agree as it relates to the child keeping silent as it seems highly incredible that he would continue the silence for so long and given what would have been thoroughly explained, imho, to him in regard to what was at stake.

I also agree that no parent would think their child guilty of such horrific crimes. In regard to the custody battle, I feel for all those involved, because the father must, if he believes the child is guilty, has an understandable desire to protect his daughter and, judging from what little I have seen of the mother, I think that she would want to protect both her children. It appears that this case has effected the lives of many both distant and close.

[FDInLaw]

March 5, 2009
Psychological Examiners Appointed
ST. JOHNS – At a Status Hearing earlier today, John V. Scialli, M.D. and Shelly Uram, M.D. were named to perform complete diagnostic evaluations and mental health examinations of the juvenile, pursuant to the recent Memorandum of Agreement. Both are board certified child psychiatrists. Defense counsel shall retain the right to request a third evaluation, if deemed necessary.
A request by the Guardian ad Litem for an audio record of the February 20th Admission Hearing and copies of the sealed competency evaluations was granted. Counsel for the child’s mother expressed her desire for a copy of the sealed evaluations. The Court will make a ruling upon receipt of the written request.
Over the objection of defense counsel, the Court ordered that the juvenile be allowed contact with family members filing approved written requests with the court. Such requests will continue to be filed under seal and the County Attorney will stipulate that any statements made by the juvenile to approved visitors, won’t be used in the State’s case-in-chief in the unlikely event of a renewed prosecution.
Efforts to enroll the juvenile in school continue. The child has relocated to another school district and the Juvenile Probation Department will work with the Guardian ad Litem and Dr. Daniel Cady in an effort to secure enrollment or equivalent services.
A Status Conference has been set for Thursday, April 2, 2009 at 1:00 p.m. with parties granted permission to appear telephonically. A Disposition Hearing will be set upon determination of the time needed for completion of the mental health evaluations.
#####http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20March%205,%202009.pd f

[sharlock]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20March%205,%202009.pd f
Thankyou for the update:beer:!
I have to say that I has not even considered those type of custody issues because I wasn't aware he had a sibling. It is strange to me that his Mum had her child from one relationship and not the other; but is also none of my business as it doesn't appear to pertain to the case. I understand your concern for his sister though in fact I think it is going to be a nightmare for both of them whether they are separated or not (I am not convinced they should be at this stage). I really think if sociey had a different attitude to the young offenders in America then they would also have a change in the way they turn out as is evidence by the young offenders in Sweden and Norway etc. They have much better stats than America but they also have a very different legal system and societal norms.