8-Year-Old Boy Arrested In Double-Homicide - Arizona

[lorettalockhorn]

Have there been more details about this released?

http://news.aol.ca/article/father-shot-killed-by-8-year-old-son/413193/

Right off the top of my head I would assume those calls were between/among the adults in the home, most likely the parents (would Tim be considered part of a domestic situation since he lived there?), or LE would have reported those calls to child protective services. Who knows?

[FDInLaw]

Is it me, or was there a chain of adults that let this kid down? Grandparents that state that “they were too hard on him.” Police records indicate domestic violence call(s). A CPS worker knew of excessive spankings . Come on! How could anyone want to see this kid charged again when he is older??? If we are going to push for the maximum punishment here, there are some adults that share responsibility. Who was going to step in and help this kid??? :flamemad:

This is a heart breaking case for sure!

[FDInLaw]

Right off the top of my head I would assume those calls were between/among the adults in the home, most likely the parents (would Tim be considered part of a domestic situation since he lived there?), or LE would have reported those calls to child protective services. Who knows?
The child had made statements to a CPS worker. . . I wonder why???

[tr7fan]

Well if this child fired all of the shots fired his hand skin would definately show large amounts of gunpower residue.
The fact that le has not released this info says something.

they didnt test his hands for gsr at all thats why they have no evidence on this

[lorettalockhorn]

You and your vocabulary! Heck, I still wouldn't know what a yenta or fishwife were without you. . . you're a gas! :biggrin: *smooch*

You crack me up on a daily bases and it nice to find you here (thank you for accepting the invite). You know I'm not detailed oriented an often mix up words/people. . . :o

One thing challenging about this case is how current it is, we don't know if through our speculation we might stumble onto something important. We might though!

The sap in me wants to share the following with everyone. . . I was reading a short devotion today and stumbled upon this (forgive the religious nature) and find it applicable;

~ Francis of Assisi


Let's look for the best in one another! :seeya:

Gosh, I'd be much better off identifying folks by their phone number, SSN, address, or account number of some sort than their names.

Love St. Francis, and you can never underestimate his popularity and/or influence. He even made it into Jeopardy today!

Call me wordophile. Love where they come from, and how they're spelled, what they mean, and how they fit into a XWP grid, all of it!

[Its just me]

Is it me, or was there a chain of adults that let this kid down? Grandparents that state that “they were too hard on him.” Police records indicate domestic violence call(s). A CPS worker knew of excessive spankings . Come on! How could anyone want to see this kid charged again when he is older??? If we are going to push for the maximum punishment here, there are some adults that share responsibility. Who was going to step in and help this kid??? :flamemad:

This is a heart breaking case for sure!

:rose: Excellent post.

I'm copying what Dr. Keith Ablow (who is a psychiatry correspondent for FOX News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author) stated in the link provided by WA several post back. I totally agree with the statement.

"The truth of this 8-year-old and his alleged violence is knowable. The key to finding it is in asking enough questions and never buying into the myth that killers are born. They are made. And when one is made by age 8, enough bad has happened in eight years to make the unthinkable actually occur."

[FDInLaw]

:rose: Excellent post.

I'm copying what Dr. Keith Ablow (who is a psychiatry correspondent for FOX News Channel and a New York Times bestselling author) stated in the link provided by WA several post back. I totally agree with the statement.

"The truth of this 8-year-old and his alleged violence is knowable. The key to finding it is in asking enough questions and never buying into the myth that killers are born. They are made. And when one is made by age 8, enough bad has happened in eight years to make the unthinkable actually occur."
A statement worth repeating!

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't know if this was 5 spankings or 5 licks. Which ever it was done by the step mom but the dad told her to spank him. I know Mr. Romero is deceased but it's pathetic if it's the truth. When/If CR needed a spanking for anything he should have been done by his Dad. fep

My understanding was that it was five swats to the behind rather than five separate spankings. If Romero was right there and told the missus to spank CR, that strikes me as wrong. I suppose it's possible that he gave her the directive by phone.

Which goes back to just who exactly the child would want revenge on; still think Tiffany would be up at the top of the list. I don't think CR would differentiate that Tim was the one who ordered the spanking, but she was the one who delivered it.

[lorettalockhorn]

The child had made statements to a CPS worker. . . I wonder why???

I've never read that there was a CPS file on this child or the family. It may be protected by the gag order. Just saying that if the domestic calls that LE answered involved the child and CPS wasn't informed by these mandated reporters, that would be another fault.

[FDInLaw]

I've never read that there was a CPS file on this child or the family. It may be protected by the gag order. Just saying that if the domestic calls that LE answered involved the child and CPS wasn't informed by these mandated reporters, that would be another fault.

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. -- An Arizona boy charged in the shooting deaths of his father and another man kept a ledger of his spankings and told a Child Protective Services worker that when he reached 1,000, that would be his limit, according to a newly released police report. Did the child make this statement after the murders???

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

[lorettalockhorn]

Did the child make this statement after the murders???

http://www.kpho.com/news/18154062/detail.html

I've heard about keeping tally of the spankings but didn't realize that it was a CPS worker that he told about it. YIKES! Not sure what to think about a CPS worker not taking steps at any point in the case or the child's life to make sure that a threat wasn't carried out. Wonder who was the source of the police report alleging this.

[Its just me]

My understanding was that it was five swats to the behind rather than five separate spankings. If Romero was right there and told the missus to spank CR, that strikes me as wrong. I suppose it's possible that he gave her the directive by phone.

Which goes back to just who exactly the child would want revenge on; still think Tiffany would be up at the top of the list. I don't think CR would differentiate that Tim was the one who ordered the spanking, but she was the one who delivered it.

Thanks.
I also consider Tiffany was the one who was reported to be the one listening when CR spoke on the phone with his mother. And the statement telling CR that what went on in the house stayed in the house points to poblems somewhere. fep

[FDInLaw]

I've heard about keeping tally of the spankings but didn't realize that it was a CPS worker that he told about it. YIKES! Not sure what to think about a CPS worker not taking steps at any point in the case or the child's life to make sure that a threat wasn't carried out. Wonder who was the source of the police report alleging this.When this statement was made is in question. . . I don't see it anywhere.
:shrug:

I really wonder if there was more paperwork on this family than what has been released. . . the lack of action makes some folks look bad. Just speculation on my part.

[FDInLaw]

Just posted the question over on IS. . . I tend to be ignored over there though, so not gonna hold my breath.

Wait! HAWK just posted this;

"That was claimed to have been said after the arrest and before the first hearing. "

[FDInLaw]

Oh goodness, read this!
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20 STATEMENTS.pdf


Prejudice much?

[William Anthony]

[quote=William Anthony;9160432]

I attribute what I read to poor LE investigation and reporting. Why has this happened. I don't know but it could be one or more of the following.

1. Stupid
2. Smart but Just lacking in training.
3. Lazy
4. Covering up the real truth.

I attribute the actions of the DA...A rush to judgement. I think the reason is one from the above list.

In case the reason for how this case has been handled is one of the first 3 I think there is a clue some where to the truth. If it is #4 there is a slip up somewhere. There is more than one inconsistent statement by the LE and witnesses. If the child can be accused of murder because he was inconsistent...shouldn't the LE and witnesses be held to the same standards? fep

I think I should have been more clear. I mean the incriminating statements made by the grandmother and Ms. Romans. Maybe, your number 4 answers that question.

[William Anthony]

Apologies for bringing up that particular skirmish, I misread and thought that you are not from the US and that is why the thought of love gone sour might be foreign to you.

No need to apologize. Being from love everlasting the idea of sour love is most foreign to me. Love never dissipates it only recreates in another place and time. It is the most universal language and leads us into the universal realm of the collective unconscious where everything is possible and nothing foreign, because we are able to tap into the experiences of all who have lived before us and those yet to be born. Love is the key to understanding that we are more than the sum of our parts and the totality of all that ever has been or ever will be.

[William Anthony]

Just posted the question over on IS. . . I tend to be ignored over there though, so not gonna hold my breath.

Wait! HAWK just posted this;

"That was claimed to have been said after the arrest and before the first hearing. "

According to your link the statement about the 1,000 spankings was made on November 6, 2008, IIRC.

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh goodness, read this!
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/STATES%20RESPONSE%20TO%20MOTION%20TO%20SUPPRESS%20 STATEMENTS.pdf


Prejudice much?

I think I'm okay with the stipulations, but maybe I'm naive and there is a chance that CR will testify. However, CPS isn't specifically precluded from testifying to any domestic abuse that was going on in the home. And neither is LE.

[lorettalockhorn]

No need to apologize. Being from love everlasting the idea of sour love is most foreign to me. Love never dissipates it only recreates in another place and time. It is the most universal language and leads us into the universal realm of the collective unconscious where everything is possible and nothing foreign, because we are able to tap into the experiences of all who have lived before us and those yet to be born. Love is the key to understanding that we are more than the sum of our parts and the totality of all that ever has been or ever will be.

We're on the same page!

[William Anthony]

We're on the same page!

Yes, page 23. Just kidding and trying to lighten the mood. :)

[tr7fan]

I think I'm okay with the stipulations, but maybe I'm naive and there is a chance that CR will testify. However, CPS isn't specifically precluded from testifying to any domestic abuse that was going on in the home. And neither is LE.

roca refused to admit the intterogation in the probable cause hearing twice that should have ended it.
bb and rw got it under control but that part about being used against him if tesitifys bothers me
last nite this was posted on in session
the agreement to not use the interrogation tape also includes a stipulaton the social workers statements wont be used
last nite this was posted on in session

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Issues of Safety for the child
Hi All! I'm just stopping by for a minute. I've been trying to read up on the posts from last night and this morning.

I wanted to pass along that there have been some concerning messages coming from a variety of sources both on and off this message board regarding the boy's safety. Either some people think he's guilty and may not feel justice is being served AND/or the real perpetrator may be worried about the boy being a lead witness.

I have removed a few comments on the boy's site if they suggested his location. I just wanted to give you a head's up in case you see your comment deleted.

Justice will never prevail without the truth.

Logging off for now. Thank you for ALL your insight. No matter WHO did this, the truth needs to be known.
__________________
http://www.myspace.com/childsHOPEandVOICE

people are getting angry over this release hes been allowed hopefully he wont have to go back
i forwarded it to few people that can do something about it if the need arises but its kinda spooky sny way. usually its the quiet ones that pose the risk i look at the comments as just blowing off steam.the blogs on wmicentral.com hearing postponed so are down right nuts
calling him a lkiller. none have threatned violence but ya never know what ll happen if a person has a few drinks and has access to a gun

[lorettalockhorn]

tr, what I gathered from the link that FD posted was that the CPS worker is only prohibited from testifying to the information giving spontaneously during that particular visit; any other information (s)he possesses would be fair game. Y'all correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the post that you cite, I worry about "the real perpetrator" too. Take that and the bloodlust from those who consider CR guilty, I worry about his safety - and Eryn's too.

Alcohol combined with gun play doesn't seem foreign in this neck of the woods. IMO

[tr7fan]

[QUOTE=lorettalockhorn;9160642]tr, what I gathered from the link that FD posted was that the CPS worker is only prohibited from testifying to the information giving spontaneously during that particular visit; any other information (s)he possesses would be fair game. Y'all correct me if I'm wrong.

As for the post that you cite, I worry about "the real perpetrator" too. Take that and the bloodlust from those who consider CR guilty, I worry about his safety - and Eryn's too.

Alcohol combined with gun play doesn't seem foreign in this neck of the woods. IMO[/QUOT
ya i been around people like that all my life and all thats happened is i ended pistol whipping a guy that came to rob me i guess since i lived alone he figured that him his wife and another big black guy would be enough but they didnt want any part in it when they saw the gun. thats been about 26 years ago and i havent had any trouble since then. i just thank the lord that the pistol jammed when i tried to shoot the guy. all my buddies said i would have got off but it would have been a mess. i beat him up side the head till my arm wore out with the gun so i guess he got the point. thats about where i put thiese people in saint johns. im just shocked.
i guess i didnt have to tell em twice i emailed the attys and left messages on the machine so i imagine they know how to handle stuff like that

will i got info from a very trusted source that the state aint got jack
i just can not believe this is happening , the kids been there all his life
they had a plea bargain drawn up in less than a week of his arrest so i think they know there in a hole they cant get of to use someone elses words about this matter
this link will be good for awhile to read there posts
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20252056&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows=10
if there had been any trouble it would be on the news soon after it happened
the whole world is watching this. i saw a guy cite an article from australia about it that just blew me away
http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20252056&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows=10

[William Anthony]

Wow!!! What a mess! It sounds like to me the wife and the big black guy ran off together to let the husband get the beat down.

[Seashell]

IMO this childs civil rights were blown away by the supposed interrogation without a lawyer present.
aS JB mentioned the shootings seemed to have been done by more than 1 person.
I am baffled that any Judge would not have thrown his hands up in air at this major error?

[Its just me]

IMO this childs civil rights were blown away by the supposed interrogation without a lawyer present.
aS JB mentioned the shootings seemed to have been done by more than 1 person.
I am baffled that any Judge would not have thrown his hands up in air at this major error?

The more I read the more I realize what a mess this case is. They claim the child was not a suspect before the taped interview but the two officers who did the interview had just picked up and bagged his clothes at the grandparents home before going to do the interview. Officer Neckel is a disgrace to LE. If there has ever been a LE officer that is covering up and lying...it's her. Is she covering her mistakes or something else. :shrug: It's clear she knew Mrs. Romero well prior to the murders and she should not have been allowed to do any investigation relating to Mrs. Romero. mhoo fep

[Seashell]

It's clear she knew Mrs. Romero well prior to the murders and she should not have been allowed to do any investigation relating to Mrs. Romero. mhoo fep

This whole case stinks and i hope this child will be given a fair trial or even let off as there are too many conflicting results due to this policewomans involvement with the boy's mother, i mean we are sitting here behind a computer and not physically seeing this child or involved in this case personally and yet we see so many flaws?
what the hell is wrong with the police force that they couldnt see these flaws and the involvement of this police woman and her apparent negligence? :flamemad:

[FDInLaw]

Forgive me if this has been posted already;

Wedding pictures and comments


http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/

[martin II]

they didnt test his hands for gsr at all thats why they have no evidence on this

The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.

[Owl]

The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.

His hands weren't tested. Neither were anyone else's.

[FDInLaw]

Owl, have you heard anything about the possibility of missing guns from the house? Is this just a rumor?

[FDInLaw]

The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.

His hands really should have been tested. The boy had handled the gun(s) in question in the past and the chipmunk was his. Finding his fingerprints there is not really telling. We need evidence that ties him to the guns in the time frame of the murders and that's a hard one.

[William Anthony]

The question in my mind is whether there are any identifiable or unidentifiable fingerprints on the gun other than the child's.

[FDInLaw]

The question in my mind is whether there are any identifiable or unidentifiable fingerprints on the gun other than the child's.
It would be nice if this was checked but don't count on it.

[FDInLaw]

The interrogation of a young boy over the murder of his sister has false and devastating consequences.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc&feature=related


Hard to watch but good to keep in mind. . .

[tr7fan]

[QUOTE=martin II;9160791]The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.[/QUOT

Just so everyone is on the same page, i have it on good authority there is no case. if you havent seen the latest video of the defense he feels that on thursday they can come to an agreement. as he stated earlier in this case any agreement will not include any jail or detention whatever they call it for juveniles. this is probably why the boy is free since the last court date.
i really gotta laff cause the last county attorney released the interrogation evidence right after a gag order had been dropped and he was on his way out due to having lost in the november election.
after that the gag order was back in place but the cat was out of the bag by then. ive seen newspaper articles from as far away as australia. personally i think he released the video to cause the new county a hard time.
things have got so bad that the defense has had to file additional motions
for the state to clarify the motions theyve filed so that theyll know what they mean in their motions.

[Its just me]

The interrogation of a young boy over the murder of his sister has false and devastating consequences.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkLHXKHb1Vc&feature=related


Hard to watch but good to keep in mind. . .

I remember when this happened....this boy was done much worse but I see similarities in CR's "interrogation". I think the story CR first told is most likely the real truth.

And we have people complaining about Gitmo. feo

[Owl]

[QUOTE=martin II;9160791]The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.[/QUOT

Just so everyone is on the same page, i have it on good authority there is no case. if you havent seen the latest video of the defense he feels that on thursday they can come to an agreement. as he stated earlier in this case any agreement will not include any jail or detention whatever they call it for juveniles. this is probably why the boy is free since the last court date.
i really gotta laff cause the last county attorney released the interrogation evidence right after a gag order had been dropped and he was on his way out due to having lost in the november election.
after that the gag order was back in place but the cat was out of the bag by then. ive seen newspaper articles from as far away as australia. personally i think he released the video to cause the new county a hard time.
things have got so bad that the defense has had to file additional motions
for the state to clarify the motions theyve filed so that theyll know what they mean in their motions.

There is nothing pointing away from the defendant that we have now. Perhaps there will be later this week.

[Its just me]

Just so everyone is on the same page, i have it on good authority there is no case. if you havent seen the latest video of the defense he feels that on thursday they can come to an agreement. as he stated earlier in this case any agreement will not include any jail or detention whatever they call it for juveniles. this is probably why the boy is free since the last court date.
i really gotta laff cause the last county attorney released the interrogation evidence right after a gag order had been dropped and he was on his way out due to having lost in the november election.
after that the gag order was back in place but the cat was out of the bag by then. ive seen newspaper articles from as far away as australia. personally i think he released the video to cause the new county a hard time.

Thanks sharing. Only time will tell but I think you are probably right. Why allow CR out for a week if there was any hard evidence against him.
Looks like the last County attorney left the new one in a pickle. fep
things have got so bad that the defense has had to file additional motions
for the state to clarify the motions theyve filed so that theyll know what they mean in their motions.[/quote]

[FDInLaw]

[QUOTE=martin II;9160791]The defense will eat their lunch if they have no lab proof to connect the child to a gun. I am sure one of the first things le does is test the hands for residue of a suspect when a gun is involved.


If this child fired a rifle multiple time to commit two murders his hands would be very sweatty imo and very good fingerprints would be all over the gun imo.[/QUOT

Just so everyone is on the same page, i have it on good authority there is no case. if you havent seen the latest video of the defense he feels that on thursday they can come to an agreement. as he stated earlier in this case any agreement will not include any jail or detention whatever they call it for juveniles. this is probably why the boy is free since the last court date.
i really gotta laff cause the last county attorney released the interrogation evidence right after a gag order had been dropped and he was on his way out due to having lost in the november election.
after that the gag order was back in place but the cat was out of the bag by then. ive seen newspaper articles from as far away as australia. personally i think he released the video to cause the new county a hard time.
things have got so bad that the defense has had to file additional motions
for the state to clarify the motions theyve filed so that theyll know what they mean in their motions.

Speaking from my armchair, I'd say the physical evidence is not panning out the way LE hoped. They might actually have to do their job at the end of this. . . a real investigation. The way information has been released in this case is down right defamatory. Won't be shocked to see a lawsuit.

The next few weeks should prove interesting. . .

[Owl]

Just so everyone is on the same page, i have it on good authority there is no case. if you havent seen the latest video of the defense he feels that on thursday they can come to an agreement. as he stated earlier in this case any agreement will not include any jail or detention whatever they call it for juveniles. this is probably why the boy is free since the last court date.
i really gotta laff cause the last county attorney released the interrogation evidence right after a gag order had been dropped and he was on his way out due to having lost in the november election.
after that the gag order was back in place but the cat was out of the bag by then. ive seen newspaper articles from as far away as australia. personally i think he released the video to cause the new county a hard time.

Thanks sharing. Only time will tell but I think you are probably right. Why allow CR out for a week if there was any hard evidence against him.
Looks like the last County attorney left the new one in a pickle. fep
things have got so bad that the defense has had to file additional motions
for the state to clarify the motions theyve filed so that theyll know what they mean in their motions.[/QUOTE]

Let's hope you are right mrrogers.

But will the killer ever be revealed?

[FDInLaw]

[QUOTE=owl;9160898]

There is nothing pointing away from the defendant that we have now. Perhaps there will be later this week.

This case burns my britches, so if I sound irritable, it's not you. . . I've got to ask, what has LE done to check out other possible suspects? With the amount of work they put into this one it's not surprising that they don't have more leads. . . THEY DID NOT LOOK FOR THEM! They “solved” this case early on and only sought to support their claim. Did they run any other finger prints, check alibis, look into the white car???

[Owl]

[QUOTE=Owl;9160909]

This case burns my britches, so if I sound irritable, it's not you. . . I've got to ask, what has LE done to check out other possible suspects? With the amount of work they put into this one it's not surprising that they don't have more leads. . . THEY DID NOT LOOK FOR THEM! They “solved” this case early on and only sought to support their claim. Did they run any other finger prints, check alibis, look into the white car???

Being a LE advocate I will assume that the investigation didn't end with the interviews at the workplace. Just a pause to reassess the evidence.
Mr. Brewer has been relentless and his investigator has questioned all the witnesses.

[FDInLaw]

[QUOTE=FDInLaw;9160926]

Being a LE advocate I will assume that the investigation didn't end with the interviews at the workplace. Just a pause to reassess the evidence.
Mr. Brewer has been relentless and his investigator has questioned all the witnesses.
I was once a LE advocate myself. . . didn't work out so well (different case). . . my assumptions were wrong.

[Owl]

[QUOTE=Owl;9160929]
I was once a LE advocate myself. . . didn't work out so well (different case). . . my assumptions were wrong.


I understand. Our trust has to be placed somewhere.

[Owl]

He's a huge anomaly right now.
Psychoanalysts have a job ahead of them that no professor has ever read about. And certainly never experienced. School books won't give them the answer. Lectures are worthless.
This is real world in real time. Statistics are meaningless.
This a real 'New Deal'.

[FDInLaw]

He's a huge anomaly right now.
Psychoanalysts have a job ahead of them that no professor has ever read about. And certainly never experienced. School books won't give them the answer. Lectures are worthless.
This is real world in real time. Statistics are meaningless.
This a real 'New Deal'.
If the boy is guilty as alleged, but this has yet to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Were we to heed statistics, it's far more likely that LE has just screwed this one up. But hey, maybe the boy is some anomaly. . . we'll have to see.

[Owl]

If the boy is guilty as alleged, but this has yet to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Were we to heed statistics, it's far more likely that LE has just screwed this one up. But hey, maybe the boy is some anomaly. . . we'll have to see.

I hope he's innocent. But the evidence, as we now know it, is against him.

[FDInLaw]

I hope he's innocent. But the evidence, as we now know it, is against him.
The majority of what I've seen is circumstantial evidence, which can be misleading. Can you share some physical evidence that ties the boy to this crime? Maybe you are more in the know somehow and can help me out here. What was your take on the autopsies. . . what clues were shed there that tie this boy to the killings? Do you have a theory for which shots were received first?

[Seashell]

In part i am glad for the child but are there going to be further investigations in looking for the real culprits?

[sharlock]

I've been looking for information from the autopsy. This is all I've found so far. A copy of the actual autopsy would be great as it would describe the path of the bullet. I've read somewhere ?? that the path of Roman's chest wounds were downward but I can only credit that as rumor right now. Below it states Romans' was shot in the chest twice but it doesn't say in what position he was found. on back or face down. I've read somewhere face down but I don't know. To me it would be important. It could mean coming out of the house or going into the house because according to LE his head was against the door. There is a crime scene photo showing 100 dollar bills and it looks as if the bills are positioned on a person laying down on his back wearing blue jeans. (I'll look for the link) Just sharing. I do think Romero being shot from the top of the stairs and the bottom is interesting. fep

The Pima County Medical Examiner’s Office has released the autopsy reports for two men allegedly shot and killed the by an 8-year-old boy.

Vincent Romero is the child’s father and Tim Romans was a man renting a room at their home.

Romero’s autopsy report reveals he was shot four times.

A bullet grazed his left arm, and penetrated the top of his head, the left side of his head, and the right side of his upper back.

Two of those gunshot wounds caught the eye of Yavapai County’s Medical Examiner Philip Keen.

Keen is Arizona’s senior forensic pathologist.

He said the shape of the wound on Romero’s back may indicate the assailant was slightly to the right and below Romero.

Romero was found face down on a flight of stairs leading to the second floor of his home.

That would place the gunman at the bottom of the staircase.

The shooting happened after Romero came home from work .

In crime scene photos he is shown wearing a hard hat and safety goggles.

He may have a gunshot wound in his back but the report also indicates that “on the front of the hard hat there is a round defect.”

After reading the report Doctor Keen said that tells him a bullet went through the front of his hard hat placing a gunman in front of him.

Tim Roman’s autopsy report outlines six gun shot wounds.

Saint Johns Police found him outside on the front porch.

One bullet struck the right top of his head, a bullet grazed the left side of his head, then there is a wound in the back of his head.

His lung and heart were hit by two bullets, one entered the right side of his chest, the other the left side.

He also has a gunshot would to his forearm.

Pima County Pathologist Cynthia Porterfield wrote “Examination of the entrance wound reveals no evidence of close range firing” for three of Romero’s gunshot wounds and five of Roman’s gunshot wounds.

Doctor Keen says they define “close range”, in part, by determining if there was any gun power residue on the victim’s skin.

He said since there is no gun powder residue it is not in “close range” which would mean the gunman was at least two to two-and-a-half feet away.

Pima County also released the toxicology reports which shows a check for alcohol and drugs in both men came back negative.

Saint Johns Police say the 8-year-old used a single shot 22-caliber rifle to shoot both men.

That means he would have had to reload and fire before each of the ten shots.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Autopsy-St-Johns-murder-victims-shot-in-thehead/gsb18gJlwkizzVprKFwW0A.cspx


ETA. Crime scene photos. Photo of money I mentioned above is 8th from left.

http://www.kpho.com/slideshow/news/18019101/detail.html
Thankyou FEP this is really interesting. I wonder if the money was in that position when they were found? Now that would be strange imo.:shrug:

[William Anthony]

The evidence is not against CR. That's a load of rubbish. Where do you 'know' the evidence is against CR? You post the links, I'll read. And I'm not interested in your quoting WA. Or his sidekick.

It's so close now. He's a 9 year old child. He didn't kill his father. Or Romans.

The 'confession' is not going to be used. The mobile phone calls haven't been released and prove nothing.

Hello. Tanya's phone call can't place CR in the house at the time of the murders.

Hello. Was there a phone call at all? Where are the transcripts? Where is the truth? Where are the records? You haven't read them. I haven't read them. Because they're not out there yet.[/B]I'm not interested in poetry or recipes.

Serious conversation with adults interested in this case.

Any takers?

We are allowed to all have a view
Some may differ
And some may agree with you
None are in err

You may always think you’re right
But may be wrong
But don’t become uptight
As we post along.

[William Anthony]

I had chosen to stay out of the discussion about GSR being on the child's hands. I have said I do not know the properties of GSR but some are criticizing LE for not testing the child's skin. I do not know, if we have enough information as to the child's personal hygiene to consider whether he had washed before LE saw him the next day and the fact that they didn't test his skin the first day can be said to show that the child was not a suspect at that time.

[Its just me]

Let's hope you are right mrrogers.

But will the killer ever be revealed?[/quote]

LOL I got a message asking if I was mrrogers at IS and wondered why they were asking...now I know. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not mrrogers or any other nic...I'm only a faithful reader at IS and not a member. I do like to read at IS. My post you quoted may be deceiving because it can look like I wrote all of it if you were not following what I quoted. FWIW

I can only hope for the families who have lost their loved ones that the truth will one day be known. We have opinions but none of us know the truth and I hope people take my posting with that in mind. fep

[William Anthony]

I have never shot a animal. I tend to take my injured animals to a vet. I see where when animals were injured in the old west, they shot them in the head to end their suffering. Seeing someone twitching and shaking on the floor is consistent with someone shooting them in the head to end their suffering. I am not saying that the child did this. I am only considering all the information received since there is no evidence at this time for anyone to consider.
.

[Its just me]

Thankyou FEP this is really interesting. I wonder if the money was in that position when they were found? Now that would be strange imo.:shrug:

I can't remember the officer's name on the report but he stated the money was removed from the wallet and laid out for the picture. IIRC this was at the morgue the next day. So now I can understand why the body was on his back. I'm sorry I should have brought this out after I read it. fep

[William Anthony]

There seems to be some interest in getting at the truth in this matter. What would a finding of incompetence and not capable of being restored to competence in the allotted time mean in this case, as it applies to the truth? We may be left with the feeling that the child was the murderer but could not be tried, because of that finding. What effect will this have on those, who loved the murdered victims? What effect will this have on the child in the future? Will LE end their investigation into the crime, because of the finding? Will the truth ever be known?

[William Anthony]

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Aj-oFT8Am7YJ:www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usab4905.pdf+testing+the+skin+for+gunshot+residue+ is+an+invasive+procedure,+requiring+a+search+warra nt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Notice that the article says that tests for GSR should not be done after 6 hours and note the infamous or famous, depending on your view, author.

[FDInLaw]

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Aj-oFT8Am7YJ:www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usab4905.pdf+testing+the+skin+for+gunshot+residue+ is+an+invasive+procedure,+requiring+a+search+warra nt&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

Notice that the article says that tests for GSR should not be done after 6 hours and note the infamous or famous, depending on your view, author.
Thanks a bunch! I set out researching the subject a few days ago and had some little distractions. . .

:seeya:

I had wondered if a sample from the boys hands could have been taken the day after (since most little boys tend to be challenged in the personal hygiene area). It was a long shot though.

[William Anthony]

Thanks a bunch! I set out researching the subject a few days ago and had some little distractions. . .

:seeya:

I had wondered if a sample from the boys hands could have been taken the day after (since most little boys tend to be challenged in the personal hygiene area). It was a long shot though.

I understand and you are welcome.

[Its just me]

There seems to be some interest in getting at the truth in this matter. What would a finding of incompetence and not capable of being restored to competence in the allotted time mean in this case, as it applies to the truth? We may be left with the feeling that the child was the murderer but could not be tried, because of that finding. What effect will this have on those, who loved the murdered victims? What effect will this have on the child in the future? Will LE end their investigation into the crime, because of the finding? Will the truth ever be known?

The truth is… if this is how the judge rules... a child that is incompetent and is impossible to be restored to a state of competency is charged with 2 murders he may or may not have done.
If one feels the child is the murderer and has a problem that the "child" can not be tried because he is/was determined to be incompetent is lacking in the understanding of incompetence in this case...He was an 8 year old child.
If there is evidence that points to someone else I can only "hope" LE will continue the investigation but my faith in that happening is little. There was a rush to judgment for a reason and I don't expect that reason to have changed what ever it was.
If the truth is never known the victims loved ones will most likely loose faith in the justice system as a whole. I did when I've walked in shoes like they will be walking in.
mhoo fep

[sharlock]

I just finished rereading the transcripts from the child's interview and some rally horrible scenarios have come to mind. The first thing that seemed to be a redflag was when he was describing his bedroom and he mentioned that his stepmom had put a box of the boarders clothes in the room because when he sleeps... at this point the woman stupidly cuts him of. She asks if he slept there and the boys says no but what might he have said if she hadn't interrupted him??? Why would the boarders stuff be put in his bedroom???? I don't like this at all.
The second thing that jumped out at me is what the child seems to allude to. He relates the car to his Grandads car, when asked if he knew anyone who might come round to the house he says no except maybe grandad and then he mentions a friend of his stepmoms but clarifies there that that person would only come round if when he was at school. When he is asked about guns he tells them his Grandads gun would be there and that it uses the same bullets as his little gun, and he seems to know that he is going to juvie.
Okay I am flying out on a limb hear but the grandma said they were too hard on that boy and was going to say more but the granddad stops her. There appears to have been 2 shooters and the boy reluctantly takes responsibility for some of it but only because they were in pain.
Is it possible that the boy told his Granddad that the boarder was abusing him and his Dad knew it. What would you do if your grandson told you something like that? I would get my gun. But thenm if this happened then it would also explain why the boy was involved, he was there and Granddad told him that he was going to take care of the prob for good. He tells the boy to stop crying and put them out of there misery. He tells the boy to keep his mouth shut and that he will be better off now, but if the police think he did it not to worry because he will only go to JUVIE for a short time and then get out as the law is easier on kids and that he did it for him. If he tells anyone then people will find out about the things that they did to him so it is better for him if he keeps quiet. When it becomes obvious the police are no longer buying the stranger did it story who comes out first saying that the boy is capable and would do it? The grandparents.
OK I know this is completely without any hard supporting evidence and I am the first to admit that this theory is way out there, but read that transcript again this time with my farfetched theory in mind and see what you think.

[Seashell]

I just finished rereading the transcripts from the child's interview and some rally horrible scenarios have come to mind. The first thing that seemed to be a redflag was when he was describing his bedroom and he mentioned that his stepmom had put a box of the boarders clothes in the room because when he sleeps... at this point the woman stupidly cuts him of. She asks if he slept there and the boys says no but what might he have said if she hadn't interrupted him??? Why would the boarders stuff be put in his bedroom???? I don't like this at all.
The second thing that jumped out at me is what the child seems to allude to. He relates the car to his Grandads car, when asked if he knew anyone who might come round to the house he says no except maybe grandad and then he mentions a friend of his stepmoms but clarifies there that that person would only come round if when he was at school. When he is asked about guns he tells them his Grandads gun would be there and that it uses the same bullets as his little gun, and he seems to know that he is going to juvie.
Okay I am flying out on a limb hear but the grandma said they were too hard on that boy and was going to say more but the granddad stops her. There appears to have been 2 shooters and the boy reluctantly takes responsibility for some of it but only because they were in pain.
Is it possible that the boy told his Granddad that the boarder was abusing him and his Dad knew it. What would you do if your grandson told you something like that? I would get my gun. But thenm if this happened then it would also explain why the boy was involved, he was there and Granddad told him that he was going to take care of the prob for good. He tells the boy to stop crying and put them out of there misery. He tells the boy to keep his mouth shut and that he will be better off now, but if the police think he did it not to worry because he will only go to JUVIE for a short time and then get out as the law is easier on kids and that he did it for him. If he tells anyone then people will find out about the things that they did to him so it is better for him if he keeps quiet. When it becomes obvious the police are no longer buying the stranger did it story who comes out first saying that the boy is capable and would do it? The grandparents.
OK I know this is completely without any hard supporting evidence and I am the first to admit that this theory is way out there, but read that transcript again this time with my farfetched theory in mind and see what you think.
This sounds more like it, thank you for input it sure as hell sounds plausible for the Grandparents involvement.

[sharlock]

There seems to be some interest in getting at the truth in this matter. What would a finding of incompetence and not capable of being restored to competence in the allotted time mean in this case, as it applies to the truth? We may be left with the feeling that the child was the murderer but could not be tried, because of that finding. What effect will this have on those, who loved the murdered victims? What effect will this have on the child in the future? Will LE end their investigation into the crime, because of the finding? Will the truth ever be known?
I agree and it appears that that is what people from that community are saying but the issue I have is that it is LE's fault if this occurs. They know the rules and they should know hoew to interrogate and investigate without being incompetent and having all sorts of errors throughout the process. If they had done their jobs properly than this would be a non-issue and yet the many posts from AZ show that people are blaming the child for this. There is another side to the coin as well which is if the child is innocent and he gets out only because of LE's ineptness and not due to supporting evidence then he will always have people thinking the worst of him. Admittedly it isn't only the mistakes made by LE that will let him go but the fact that he is not competent to stand trial and this is as it should be. The law needs to change but not so it is is suited to be able to try children as adults but certainly it should accomodate these children and provide intensive support and counselling to them regardles of the results of a proper investigation. IMO America should consider the way people in Norway handle these case for it is far more humane and consistent with childrens rights imo.

[Seashell]

The child is a witness and this is the key.

[William Anthony]

I agree and it appears that that is what people from that community are saying but the issue I have is that it is LE's fault if this occurs. They know the rules and they should know hoew to interrogate and investigate without being incompetent and having all sorts of errors throughout the process. If they had done their jobs properly than this would be a non-issue and yet the many posts from AZ show that people are blaming the child for this. There is another side to the coin as well which is if the child is innocent and he gets out only because of LE's ineptness and not due to supporting evidence then he will always have people thinking the worst of him. Admittedly it isn't only the mistakes made by LE that will let him go but the fact that he is not competent to stand trial and this is as it should be. The law needs to change but not so it is is suited to be able to try children as adults but certainly it should accomodate these children and provide intensive support and counselling to them regardles of the results of a proper investigation. IMO America should consider the way people in Norway handle these case for it is far more humane and consistent with childrens rights imo.

Let me begin by saying that I found your post to be eloquent, and, if by chance my posts have inspired you to produce a writing style that reflects a time when the proper use of language was beautiful, both in it's form and content, I am thoroughly pleased and, likewise, thoroughly pleased and find it refreshing and enjoyable, if your style is a product of your own originality, as I do find that attempted thoughts expressed in incomplete sentences, which lack any verb, to be irritating.

I am not blaming the child for anything. I realize that the world is more imperfect, when it comes to people, than it is perfect. I was speaking more to the desire of some to have the truth and the issue of the child's competence. I understand your feeling that the alleged sloppy LE investigation only contributes to the possibility that the truth may never be discovered. However, if we allow for the possibility that LE could have done a pristine and perfect investigation, it would still be all for naught in the search for truth, if the child is ruled to be incompetent and unable to be restored to competency in the allotted time. That is what I meant in a prior post, when I said that there might be a compromise of rights but I am not sure that such a compromise is not the proper resolution.

[FDInLaw]

The child is a witness and this is the key.

I agree. It would be nice if the State were to step in and have an officer question the boy with a parent and/or lawyer present. Someone that will actually listen to the boy and let him finish his thoughts.

MOO

[Seashell]

I agree. It would be nice if the State were to step in and have an officer question the boy with a parent and/or lawyer present. Someone that will actually listen to the boy and let him finish his thoughts.

MOO

I also have a feeling the child is scared maybe due to being told by someone very close to him not to tell.
I would very much like to see that someone who has an inkling of humanity in them interviw this child and let him know he is safe and that he will not get into trouble telling the truth of what he knows. He needs to finish what he was saying.
TMHO.

[FDInLaw]

I also have a feeling the child is scared maybe due to being told by someone very close to him not to tell.
I would very much like to see that someone who has an inkling of humanity in them interviw this child and let him know he is safe and that he will not get into trouble telling the truth of what he knows. He needs to finish what he was saying.
TMHO.

This is a very valid concern. . . it's even possible that the perpetrator somehow forced the boy to participate if in fact it is someone he knows.

The atrocities in the Sudan come to mind, where children are forced to shoot their own parents or die themselves.

[William Anthony]

The truth is… if this is how the judge rules... a child that is incompetent and is impossible to be restored to a state of competency is charged with 2 murders he may or may not have done.
If one feels the child is the murderer and has a problem that the "child" can not be tried because he is/was determined to be incompetent is lacking in the understanding of incompetence in this case...He was an 8 year old child.
If there is evidence that points to someone else I can only "hope" LE will continue the investigation but my faith in that happening is little. There was a rush to judgment for a reason and I don't expect that reason to have changed what ever it was.
If the truth is never known the victims loved ones will most likely loose faith in the justice system as a whole. I did when I've walked in shoes like they will be walking in.
mhoo fep

The legal course of action is that, if the child is found to be incompetent and unable to be restored to competence in the allotted time frame, the judge, according to your link, must dismiss the charges with prejudice. There may or may not have been a rush to judgment but, based on the information we have, the child was not immediately placed under arrest and, subsequently, released and later questioned. He was questioned the next day, according to my understanding, after some investigation of the crime scene and witness interviews. I think under those circumstances an argument can be made that there was a rush to judgment. The victims family may lose faith in the CJS but the child, in some minds, will always carry the stigma of being a double murderer who escaped punishment, because of his age, whether or not that stigma is rightly or wrongly attached. That is the saddest part. The truth may never be known and that might be the best resolution. Sometimes speculation is better than knowledge.

[FDInLaw]

The legal course of action is that, if the child is found to be incompetent and unable to be restored to competence in the allotted time frame, the judge, according to your link, must dismiss the charges with prejudice. There may or may not have been a rush to judgment but, based on the information we have, the child was not immediately placed under arrest and, subsequently, released and later questioned. He was questioned the next day, according to my understanding, after some investigation of the crime scene and witness interviews. I think under those circumstances an argument can be made that there was a rush to judgment. The victims family may lose faith in the CJS but the child, in some minds, will always carry the stigma of being a double murderer who escaped punishment, because of his age, whether or not that stigma is rightly or wrongly attached. That is the saddest part. The truth may never be known and that might be the best resolution. Sometimes speculation is better than knowledge. Not for the victim's loved ones. :( I hope they can in fact have closure here.

[William Anthony]

I only express a personal concern here and hope that it is understood as just that. I do not feel that it is proper to engage in victim bashing, unless there is some concrete evidence that the victims were involved in some abuse of the child. Thus far, we have information about spankings. I have no knowledge of the grandfather's temper but I think it would be the act of an irrational father to kill his son, because he spanked his child or allowed another adult to spank his son. I think there must have been some more egregious form of abuse, which is what the posts seem to indicate. It is only out of respect for the murdered that I personally would ask for more substantial information before I would venture into that area of speculation. This is not one of the areas where I believe speculation is better than knowledge.

[William Anthony]

Not for the victim's loved ones. :( I hope they can in fact have closure here.

I understand what you are saying but consider the fact that you love your spouse beyond all believable limits but suspect them of cheating. Is it not better to only suspect than to have your suspicions verified and what effect would that have on your heart? The same hold true for the Romero family. What effect would it have on them, if they found that their grandson and step-child murdered their son and husband. What effect would it have on the Romans, if they knew that the child senselessly murdered their son and husband but got off because of a competency hearing? Is it not better for them to speculate that might be the case, as opposed to knowing it was? The one person, I see as it having the most profound effect upon would be the wife of Mr. Timothy Romans, if she is convinced that the child was at home before her husband was murdered.

[FDInLaw]

I understand what you are saying but consider the fact that you love your spouse beyond all believable limits but suspect them of cheating. Is it not better to only suspect than to have your suspicions verified and what effect would that have on your heart? The same hold true for the Romero family. What effect would it have on them, if they found that their grandson and step-child murdered their son and husband. What effect would it have on the Romans, if they knew that the child senselessly murdered their son and husband but got off because of a competency hearing? Is it not better for them to speculate that might be the case, as opposed to knowing it was?Guess in part the answer lies in personality, a non-confrontational person might share your view. Personally, I do not. Not knowing is extremely hard. You have a valid point though. I wonder how they feel?

[Seashell]

This is a very valid concern. . . it's even possible that the perpetrator somehow forced the boy to participate if in fact it is someone he knows.

The atrocities in the Sudan come to mind, where children are forced to shoot their own parents or die themselves.


ITA and you also made a valid point here and i feel this also should be investigated.
I want the childs testimony to be heard fully as much as you do. :rose:
I could be wrong or maybe not but the matter of the fact is that the childs civil rights were ignored.
Innocent until proven guilty if there is enough proof, isnt this the way the law works?
Since day 1 the kid has been made to look guilty, this is not the way.

[William Anthony]

Guess in part the answer lies in personality, a non-confrontational person might share your view. Personally, I don not. Not knowing is extremely hard. You have a valid point though. I wonder how they feel?

Oh, that Solomon thing raises its head, again.:)

[William Anthony]

ITA and you also made a valid point here and i feel this also should be investigated.
I want the childs testimony to be heard fully as much as you do. :rose:
I could be wrong or maybe not but the matter of the fact is that the childs civil rights were ignored.
Innocent until proven guilty if there is enough proof, isnt this the way the law works?
Since day 1 the kid has been made to look guilty, this is not the way.

Yes, that is the way the law works. However, a finding of incompetence and an inability to be restored dismisses that function. The law recognized that innocent until proven guilty only is applicable to those competent to stand trial.

[FDInLaw]

I only express a personal concern here and hope that it is understood as just that. I do not feel that it is proper to engage in victim bashing, unless there is some concrete evidence that the victims were involved in some abuse of the child. Thus far, we have information about spankings. I have no knowledge of the grandfather's temper but I think it would be the act of an irrational father to kill his son, because he spanked his child or allowed another adult to spank his son. I think there must have been some more egregious form of abuse, which is what the posts seem to indicate. It is only out of respect for the murdered that I personally would ask for more substantial information before I would venture into that area of speculation. This is not one of the areas where I believe speculation is better than knowledge.
I trust that there will not be a bash session. We do not have any proof that the Grandfather had anything to do with these homicides. What was suggested was a scenario wherein another family member was responsible and the possible effect they might have on keeping the boy quiet if he did witness the crimes. I believe this is a good point and something to keep in mind. . . the concept. At least, this is how I took it. You are wise to be cautious though, I've seen people publicly lynched on a message board without a lick of evidence. As such, it really is not wise for anyone close to a victim to hang out in such a place. . . take my word for it.

[FDInLaw]

Oh, that Solomon thing raises its head, again.:)

"Buy the truth and do not sell it. . . "

~ Solomon

;)






(Proverbs 23:23)

[William Anthony]

I trust that there will not be a bash session. We do not have any proof that the Grandfather had anything to do with these homicides. What was suggested was a scenario wherein another family member was responsible and the possible effect they might have on keeping the boy quiet if he did witness the crimes. I believe this is a good point and something to keep in mind. . . the concept. At least, this is how I took it. You are wise to be cautious though, I've seen people publicly lynched on a message board without a lick of evidence. As such, it really is not wise for anyone close to a victim to hang out in such a place. . . take my word for it.

I understand completely. My point was more to the point made in the scenario where the father allowed his friend to abuse the child; the child told the grandfather; etc. etc. etc. I think it is reasonable to speculate on the information that we have received, as to their being some type of abuse that we are not aware of. However, to speculate beyond that point and to possibly indicate a person who was brutally murdered in that abuse, without any information that would allow for that is tenuously close to victim bashing, imho. I can think of another reason to kill Mr. Romans and that is that dead men don't tell tales.

[FDInLaw]

I understand completely. My point was more to the point made in the scenario where the father allowed his friend to abuse the child; the child told the grandfather; etc. etc. etc. I think it is reasonable to speculate on the information that we have received, as to their being some type of abuse that we are not aware of. However, to speculate beyond that point and to possibly indicate a person who was brutally murdered in that abuse, without any information that would allow for that is tenuously close to victim bashing, imho. I can think of another reason to kill Mr. Romans and that is that dead men don't tell tales.Yes, it is certainly possible that one or even both of these gentlemen were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. We certainly do not know the extent or nature of any abuse.

With so many elements of the boy's case up in the air, this must be a very difficult time for the Robbins family. . . my prayers are with them. :rose:

[William Anthony]

"Buy the truth and do not sell it. . . "

~ Solomon

;)






(Proverbs 23:23)

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Proverbs 24:3 Through wisdom is an house builded; and by understanding it is established:
4 And by knowledge shall the chambers be filled with all precious and pleasant riches.
5 A wise man is strong; yea, a man of knowledge increaseth strength.
6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety.
7 Wisdom is too high for a fool: he openeth not his mouth in the gate.

With that said, I will shut my mouth. :)

[William Anthony]

Yes, it is certainly possible that one or even both of these gentlemen were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. We certainly do not know the extent or nature of any abuse.

With so many elements of the boy's case up in the air, this must be a very difficult time for the Robbins family. . . my prayers are with them. :rose:

My prayers are for all those involved, including AJDC, CPS, the judge, prosecution and the defense. This is from Plato's allegory of the cave.

"But then, if I am right, certain professors of education must be wrong when they say that they can put a knowledge into the soul which was not there before, like sight into blind eyes.

They undoubtedly say this, he replied.

Whereas our argument shows that the power and capacity of learning exists in the soul already; and that just as the eye was unable to turn from darkness to light without the whole body, so too the instrument of knowledge can only by the movement of the whole soul be turned from the world of becoming into that of being, and learn by degrees to endure the sight of being and of the brightest and best of being, or in other words, of the good."

[sharlock]

I understand completely. My point was more to the point made in the scenario where the father allowed his friend to abuse the child; the child told the grandfather; etc. etc. etc. I think it is reasonable to speculate on the information that we have received, as to their being some type of abuse that we are not aware of. However, to speculate beyond that point and to possibly indicate a person who was brutally murdered in that abuse, without any information that would allow for that is tenuously close to victim bashing, imho. I can think of another reason to kill Mr. Romans and that is that dead men don't tell tales.
Point taken. I was never suggesting that this scenario took place, simply that the statements given by the child gave me concern and lead my thought processes on a merry dance perhaps best kept to myself. I do come to this board to debate and such but I also secretly desire to solve each and every crime:tongue: and I guess that means I do tend to run scenarios and then try to find supporting evidence because I am not privvy to most of the real stuff lol. It is odd though to store this stuff in the childs room and not the boarders though.:D

[William Anthony]

Point taken. I was never suggesting that this scenario took place, simply that the statements given by the child gave me concern and lead my thought processes on a merry dance perhaps best kept to myself. I do come to this board to debate and such but I also secretly desire to solve each and every crime:tongue: and I guess that means I do tend to run scenarios and then try to find supporting evidence because I am not privvy to most of the real stuff lol. It is odd though to store this stuff in the childs room and not the boarders though.:D

:), I am so often misunderstood. I did not mean that you should stop your speculation or expressing it and I was just offering my own personal view on that. I completely understand your desire to want to solve every case, which I think is admirable. I want to debate everything from a legal standpoint.:) I think there was some information to the effect that Mr. Romans and Ms. Romero were having an affair. I do not know, if this was information or speculation. Please, believe me that it was just my personal view and I am not asking anyone to share it.

[lorettalockhorn]

Let's hope you are right mrrogers.

But will the killer ever be revealed?

LOL I got a message asking if I was mrrogers at IS and wondered why they were asking...now I know. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not mrrogers or any other nic...I'm only a faithful reader at IS and not a member. I do like to read at IS. My post you quoted may be deceiving because it can look like I wrote all of it if you were not following what I quoted. FWIW

I can only hope for the families who have lost their loved ones that the truth will one day be known. We have opinions but none of us know the truth and I hope people take my posting with that in mind. fep[/QUOTE]

My skills are sliding, I thought maybe TR7 was mrrogers. Maybe (s)he'll let us know.

I've always thought that the first shot to Romero was likely the shot to the back and from the bottom of the stairs since he was found with his arms underneath him. But there have been several posts that that particular bullet ended up in his abdomen, so there you go. I've read the same information as you about the $100 bills, but also don't remember who wrote the report.

[lorettalockhorn]

I just finished rereading the transcripts from the child's interview and some rally horrible scenarios have come to mind. The first thing that seemed to be a redflag was when he was describing his bedroom and he mentioned that his stepmom had put a box of the boarders clothes in the room because when he sleeps... at this point the woman stupidly cuts him of. She asks if he slept there and the boys says no but what might he have said if she hadn't interrupted him??? Why would the boarders stuff be put in his bedroom???? I don't like this at all.
The second thing that jumped out at me is what the child seems to allude to. He relates the car to his Grandads car, when asked if he knew anyone who might come round to the house he says no except maybe grandad and then he mentions a friend of his stepmoms but clarifies there that that person would only come round if when he was at school. When he is asked about guns he tells them his Grandads gun would be there and that it uses the same bullets as his little gun, and he seems to know that he is going to juvie.
Okay I am flying out on a limb hear but the grandma said they were too hard on that boy and was going to say more but the granddad stops her. There appears to have been 2 shooters and the boy reluctantly takes responsibility for some of it but only because they were in pain.
Is it possible that the boy told his Granddad that the boarder was abusing him and his Dad knew it. What would you do if your grandson told you something like that? I would get my gun. But thenm if this happened then it would also explain why the boy was involved, he was there and Granddad told him that he was going to take care of the prob for good. He tells the boy to stop crying and put them out of there misery. He tells the boy to keep his mouth shut and that he will be better off now, but if the police think he did it not to worry because he will only go to JUVIE for a short time and then get out as the law is easier on kids and that he did it for him. If he tells anyone then people will find out about the things that they did to him so it is better for him if he keeps quiet. When it becomes obvious the police are no longer buying the stranger did it story who comes out first saying that the boy is capable and would do it? The grandparents.
OK I know this is completely without any hard supporting evidence and I am the first to admit that this theory is way out there, but read that transcript again this time with my farfetched theory in mind and see what you think.

The entire interview/investigation is surreal to me. The inquisitors don't allow the boy to finish his thoughts and lead him into many of his answers. From the conditions of the home I cannot imagine why the stepmother would bother herself with Romans' belongings; looks like she had her hands full without adding to her own family's laundry. I am still curious as to exactly when the interview became an investigation, and what secret signal did one give the other to begin conducting it as such? Hadn't one or the other already collected CR's clothing?

It has always bothered me that the boy was worried about juvie. Where does an eight year old hear of the horrors of juvie? Was it a constant threat that had been made to him?

[lorettalockhorn]

I understand what you are saying but consider the fact that you love your spouse beyond all believable limits but suspect them of cheating. Is it not better to only suspect than to have your suspicions verified and what effect would that have on your heart? The same hold true for the Romero family. What effect would it have on them, if they found that their grandson and step-child murdered their son and husband. What effect would it have on the Romans, if they knew that the child senselessly murdered their son and husband but got off because of a competency hearing? Is it not better for them to speculate that might be the case, as opposed to knowing it was? The one person, I see as it having the most profound effect upon would be the wife of Mr. Timothy Romans, if she is convinced that the child was at home before her husband was murdered.

I can't think of an instance where suspicions are better than the truth if the truth can be found. Ignorance is not bliss.

[William Anthony]

When I read the transcript of the interview, it was consistent with him first being questioned as someone, who had been at the scene at the time of the murders, and someone, who was the murderer. I think that the child should have been given his Miranda rights when he said he thinks he shot them.

[Owl]

Judge Roca has a hearing @ 9:30am, another @ 1:30pm, and then the boy's status hearing @ 4:00pm (6:00pm EST).

What will we know tomorrow night?

[Its just me]

When I read the transcript of the interview, it was consistent with him first being questioned as someone, who had been at the scene at the time of the murders, and someone, who was the murderer. I think that the child should have been given his Miranda rights when he said he thinks he shot them.

I disagree because it is documented that CR was a suspect after Mrs. Romans told Rodriquez CR was at the scene. The officer who went with Rodriquez put it in his report that it was discussed on their way home. This was early hours before CR was questioned and you can not tell me this was NOT discussed at LE's documented meeting that morning. I strongly believe it was the only reason the child's clothes were collected which was before CR was questioned in the video. They should have given his Miranda rights and followed the law in questioning a child before the interview started and the CA knows it or he would not have agreed for the video not be allowed. imhoo fep

[William Anthony]

I disagree because it is documented that CR was a suspect after Mrs. Romans told Rodriquez CR was at the scene. The officer who went with Rodriquez put it in his report that it was discussed on their way home. This was early hours before CR was questioned and you can not tell me this was NOT discussed at LE's documented meeting that morning. I strongly believe it was the only reason the child's clothes were collected which was before CR was questioned in the video. They should have given his Miranda rights and followed the law in questioning a child before the interview started and the CA knows it or he would not have agreed for the video not be allowed. imhoo fep

You may be right and that is an argument to be made. However, another argument is that what LE said is true and that the child was not a suspect when they began the interview and only believed that he knew something more. Being at the scene, does not equate to being guilty, imho. I do not find it hard to believe that LE did not consider the possibility that an 8 year old would commit such a brutal and cold double murder but could believe he witnessed it. The clothes collection are only part of items collected during an investigation. It would be my understanding that a search warrant was needed to collect the clothes and that would require a determination of probable cause. I have not looked into which was done first, the interview/interrogation or the clothes collection.

The law was that they did not have to give him his Miranda rights until he was a suspect of felt that he was not free to leave, which may be the strongest argument. The prosecution's offer not to use the alleged confession was based on a tactical decision, imho.

[Owl]

You may be right and that is an argument to be made. However, another argument is that what LE said is true and that the child was not a suspect when they began the interview and only believed that he knew something more. Being at the scene, does not equate to being guilty, imho. I do not find it hard to believe that LE did not consider the possibility that an 8 year old would commit such a brutal and cold double murder but could believe he witnessed it. The clothes collection are only part of items collected during an investigation. It would be my understanding that a search warrant was needed to collect the clothes and that would require a determination of probable cause. I have not looked into which was done first, the interview/interrogation or the clothes collection.

The law was that they did not have to give him his Miranda rights until he was a suspect of felt that he was not free to leave, which may be the strongest argument. The prosecution's offer not to use the alleged confession was based on a tactical decision, imho.

The clothes were collected the night of the murders in order to place the child at the scene. Of course that evidence is worthless, so they wasted their time.

[FDInLaw]

Judge Roca has a hearing @ 9:30am, another @ 1:30pm, and then the boy's status hearing @ 4:00pm (6:00pm EST).

What will we know tomorrow night?Thanks for posting the time. . . I was hoping the hearing would take place earlier in the day. *sigh*

Do you have any thoughts on what we might hear?

[William Anthony]

The clothes were collected the night of the murders in order to place the child at the scene. Of course that evidence is worthless, so they wasted their time.

Link please to the fact that the clothes were collected the night of the murders? It is my understanding that they were collected the next day.

[Seashell]

I disagree because it is documented that CR was a suspect after Mrs. Romans told Rodriquez CR was at the scene. The officer who went with Rodriquez put it in his report that it was discussed on their way home. This was early hours before CR was questioned and you can not tell me this was NOT discussed at LE's documented meeting that morning. I strongly believe it was the only reason the child's clothes were collected which was before CR was questioned in the video. They should have given his Miranda rights and followed the law in questioning a child before the interview started and the CA knows it or he would not have agreed for the video not be allowed. imhoo fep

Thanks for more info.
Again ITA with your points.

[William Anthony]

Thanks for more info.
Again ITA with your points.

I agree with those points, also. However, that is not what the law is.

[William Anthony]

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2009/01/06/20090106stjohns.html

"The boy's clothing was not collected until the day after his father and a friend were shot and killed, and his skin was never tested for traces of gunshot residue. The boy, who turned 9 last month, frequently hunted with his father and could have held the box of .22-caliber cartridges or come into contact with residue at any time. "

[Seashell]

Judge Roca has a hearing @ 9:30am, another @ 1:30pm, and then the boy's status hearing @ 4:00pm (6:00pm EST).

What will we know tomorrow night?

Thank you for the info. Owl and welcome :rose:

[Seashell]

I agree with those points, also. However, that is not what the law is.

Doesnt the law also say that a minor should have a legal representative or legal guardian during questioning even if cross questioned as a witness?

[William Anthony]

Doesnt the law also say that a minor should have a legal representative or legal guardian during questioning even if cross questioned as a witness?

Not to my understanding and Jacobt, IIRC, and I both agreed to that. The point is more to were the child's statements given voluntarily. The law requires AJDC investigators to give Miranda rights before conducting an interview but that is not applicable to LE, according to my understanding. I would agree that it might have been the preferable course of action. I will try to find and post again those post and I might have supplied a link to the case law in that area. I will look.

[William Anthony]

It was in a discussion with Jacobbtk and the post is number 308 on this thread. I had previously provided the case law. Here is the discussion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by William Anthony View Post
JI have provided information that the alleged confession would not be used and a link, showing what the prosecution agreed to as to not using the tape before the previous link. Therefore, I stand behind my position that some agreement has been reached but my information, as well as any othe poster's might be incorrect. Please, provide a link that states they are still seeking to have the alleged confession ruled illegal that is dated after the link I provided and we should then be able to agree.

Read the Reply To Response To Motion To Suppress Statements And Motion To Strike pdf. In it the attorney states that the only matter left is whether the statements were illegally obtained.

As for an agreement, strategically speaking it would be greatly unwise. By the state conceding this point but not agreeing that the confession was illegally obtained they prevent the boy from ever claiming that he did not do or claiming that someone else did it. They prevent the boy from stating that he felt coerced or compelled to make a false confession. In short, they have effectively prevented the boy from speaking in his own defense. Granted, the boy does not have to take the stand and there are ways to introduce the boy's position about what happened without him ever testifying. However, this move is rather slick.

Quote:
I have some questions about the confession being voluntary in that the child may not have felt he was free to leave, despite, if as LE alleges, he was not a suspect at the time he made the initial statement. I have provided the link on the Nevada law that states, IIRC, a juvenile does not need representation when questioned by LE, if the child is not a suspect.

Arizona law allows children to be questioned outside of a parent's presence regardless of whether they are witnesses or suspects. However, by virtue of the boy's age it is completely unrealistic to believe that he knew his rights and understood them. The interview, both in its questionable legality and the impressively poor nature of it (I remain astounded that they asked the boy if he shot his father, but never asked what gun he used, where he got the gun from or where he put when he was done) is a legal nightmare for the state on several levels, which is probably why they conceded the point.

[lorettalockhorn]

I disagree because it is documented that CR was a suspect after Mrs. Romans told Rodriquez CR was at the scene. The officer who went with Rodriquez put it in his report that it was discussed on their way home. This was early hours before CR was questioned and you can not tell me this was NOT discussed at LE's documented meeting that morning. I strongly believe it was the only reason the child's clothes were collected which was before CR was questioned in the video. They should have given his Miranda rights and followed the law in questioning a child before the interview started and the CA knows it or he would not have agreed for the video not be allowed. imhoo fep

Agree that Miranda should have been given either before the interview began, or at the magical moment that it became an interrogation. It should have been made clear that he could leave at any time for any reason. As for no adult or attorney being present, I can't believe that the grandparents stood for that business.

[lorettalockhorn]

Judge Roca has a hearing @ 9:30am, another @ 1:30pm, and then the boy's status hearing @ 4:00pm (6:00pm EST).

What will we know tomorrow night?

Thanks for the heads up!

[Its just me]

You may be right and that is an argument to be made. However, another argument is that what LE said is true and that the child was not a suspect when they began the interview and only believed that he knew something more. Being at the scene, does not equate to being guilty, imho. I do not find it hard to believe that LE did not consider the possibility that an 8 year old would commit such a brutal and cold double murder but could believe he witnessed it. The clothes collection are only part of items collected during an investigation. It would be my understanding that a search warrant was needed to collect the clothes and that would require a determination of probable cause. I have not looked into which was done first, the interview/interrogation or the clothes collection.

The law was that they did not have to give him his Miranda rights until he was a suspect of felt that he was not free to leave, which may be the strongest argument. The prosecution's offer not to use the alleged confession was based on a tactical decision, imho.

The collection of the clothes was done when the two officers went to the grandparent’s home the next morning to request they interview CR again. I'm not providing a link but it's all in the Brewer questioning Neckel document. I would think a search warrant was necessary for the clothes to be collected and a search warrant was issued fairly quickly after the crime but I don't know if collecting the clothes was included. I remember this because there is/was argument over the magistrate judge signing it. The argument was because of conflict of interest or something similar. IIRC

The prosecution knew they screwed up the interview and violated the child's rights.

fep

[FDInLaw]

Oh for pity's sake, take your two-bit pseudo-philosophy over to The Two-Bit Pseudo-Philosophy board, will ya?

Yes, I try to understand the opinions of others, but at some point I sometimes give up. Why do you care what my desires about the truth is conditioned on? Sheesh I don't come here for validation. If I did, well, I'd comment on and challenge many, many comments. And would probably have well over 10,000 posts.

I have spelled out that I think the investigation as we know it was slipshod and incomplete. I have said that I don't think CR is guilty. I have said that I think the killer(s) remain free. Get it?

Let's begin at the beginning. You felt compelled to comment on my remark about the truth. Ergo, you for some reason chose to break your own rule that would allow you to post more frequently. With that in mind, I will post where I want when I want. The question is why did you care what I posted about the truth and then become angry, uncivil, rude and inconsistent, as you did in this post, when I sought to get some clarification on you positions.
It warms my heart to see y'all getting better acquainted. :biggrin:

[lorettalockhorn]

Unreal.

You know, when I feel like making a generalized comment that doesn't apply to anyone in particular, I don't quote someone's post.

I'd like to think that we can post here unmolested. That we don't have to issue an official statement or go into ridiculous rigamarole qualifying and defending every post(s) that reflects opinions (as opposed to facts).

[Its just me]

Unreal.

You know, when I feel like making a generalized comment that doesn't apply to anyone in particular, I don't quote someone's post.

I'd like to think that we can post here unmolested. That we don't have to issue an official statement or go into ridiculous rigamarole qualifying and defending every post(s) that reflects opinions (as opposed to facts).

:rose:That is the way is "should" be but sadly that is not always the case. fep

[FDInLaw]

Well, I'm anxious to see how tomorrow's events pan out. I wonder what will happen? Crystal ball anyone???

[emes]

Well, I'm anxious to see how tomorrow's events pan out. I wonder what will happen? Crystal ball anyone???

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspx

[Its just me]

Well, I'm anxious to see how tomorrow's events pan out. I wonder what will happen? Crystal ball anyone???

No Crystal but my opinion is the charges against account one may be dropped without prejudice if there is strong evidence or strong possiblility that CR may be guilty. If nothing is actually ruled on tomorrow I think all charges will be dropped with prejudice on the 13th when the competency hearing is scheduled and if this happens there is no evidence to convict him. Just mhoo and only time will tell. fep

[Its just me]

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspx

Thank emes. CR getting to remain out of detention tells "me" there are serious issues with him being detained. What ever is the reason, I'm glad he is getting to stay with his mom. fep

[FDInLaw]

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspxThank you for posting this news! :seeya:

It states that CR's furlough has been extended.

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspx

Thanks for the heads up and that second link!

[Owl]

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspx


Is there any bad news in the delay? Why did they postpone?

[FDInLaw]

I wonder if there has been any activity that might suggest LE is checking out other possible suspects? I know, I'm hoping out loud here. . .

[FDInLaw]

More documents up!!!

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/

[Owl]

I wonder if there has been any activity that might suggest LE is checking out other possible suspects? I know, I'm hoping out loud here. . .

I'd like to know what it means. Who do you suppose Ms. Hines is?

[FDInLaw]

I'd like to know what it means. Who do you suppose Ms. Hines is?
Not a local, I have no clue! Quite a list. . . . what does it suggest???:read:

[lorettalockhorn]

I'd like to know what it means. Who do you suppose Ms. Hines is?

I'm thinking she's not the Metropolitan Opera soprano who appeared as the fourth naked virgin in a production of Rigoletto!

I suppose that CR may have confided in her while in juvenile detention. :shrug:

Quite a bit of information that The State is submitting. Could the delay be so that the defense can peruse these transcripts?

[Owl]

Not a local, I have no clue! Quite a list. . . . what does it suggest???:read:

Odd wording. It says she's with the Apache County Detention Center. Why would she have to travel?

[Its just me]

It is ordered vacating the competency hearing. Not continuing but vacating. I am ignorant on legal terms but to me vacating means stopping, giving up. :shrug: fep

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20VACATING%20HEARING.pdf

[Owl]

I'm thinking she's not the Metropolitan Opera soprano who appeared as the fourth naked virgin in a production of Rigoletto!

I suppose that CR may have confided in her while in juvenile detention.

Quite a bit of information that The State is submitting. Could the delay be so that the defense can peruse these transcripts?

As a defence witness this would have nothing to do with the 1000th spanking alleged comment. Right?
The longer this case lingers the more curious I get. Then they postpone! Again.

[lorettalockhorn]

It is ordered vacating the competency hearing. Not continuing but vacating. I am ignorant on legal terms but to me vacating means stopping, giving up. :shrug: fep

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/JV2008065/ORDER%20VACATING%20HEARING.pdf

Right; to abandon or withdraw. :shrug: <<he;s very popular today.

[FDInLaw]

Odd wording. It says she's with the Apache County Detention Center. Why would she have to travel?Muska just posted this over on IS;

"Mrs. Hines is a juvenile court administrator. She is the one who asked who should be allowed to visit the boy and who seems to coordinate things."

[Owl]

By vacating the competency hearing does that mean there is exonerating evidence and the boy is innocent? No need for the mental evaluations?
I'm confused.

[Owl]

Muska just posted this over on IS;

"Mrs. Hines is a juvenile court administrator. She is the one who asked who should be allowed to visit the boy and who seems to coordinate things."

Tell them hello over ther for me. Guess I won't be back.

Wonder what Ms. Hines could offer?

[tr7fan]

Thanks for posting the time. . . I was hoping the hearing would take place earlier in the day. *sigh*

Do you have any thoughts on what we might hear?

you aint gonna hear nuthin tomorrow . its been moved to the 12th and competency hearing has been vacated

[Its just me]

Right; to abandon or withdraw. :shrug: <<he;s very popular today.


Thanks, very intersting because I believe for the case against CR to move forward his competency has to be determined. :shrug:. I love this guy. fep

[Its just me]

Tell them hello over ther for me. Guess I won't be back.

Wonder what Ms. Hines could offer?

I don't know but it must be pretty important. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

By vacating the competency hearing does that mean there is exonerating evidence and the boy is innocent? No need for the mental evaluations?
I'm confused.

That doesn't make sense (at least to me); CR has already been ruled incompetent by The State, and according to one news source by the defense examiner as well. Don't think the court can undo that finding without another motion (like nunc pro tunc or whatever it's called). Competency is key to the manner or when and if the boy will be tried at all. Right?

[Its just me]

you aint gonna hear nuthin tomorrow . its been moved to the 12th and competency hearing has been vacated

TR7, can you tell us more about the competency hearing being vacated. Thanks fep

[lorettalockhorn]

Odd wording. It says she's with the Apache County Detention Center. Why would she have to travel?

Maybe she doesn't live in St. Johns, but in Phoenix for instance, and would have to travel to court as well (as to work). :shrug: <<told ya he's popular!

[Owl]

That doesn't make sense (at least to me); CR has already been ruled incompetent by The State, and according to one news source by the defense examiner as well. Don't think the court can undo that finding without another motion (like nunc pro tunc or whatever it's called). Competency is key to the manner or when and if the boy will be tried at all. Right?

I was under the impression that competency was the preimminent issue to the judge. Looks like maybe things are looking up for the boy and he's innocent. That would be a million times better than simply being deemed incompetent to stand trail.

The wait is painful.

[lorettalockhorn]

I was under the impression that competency was the preimminent issue to the judge. Looks like maybe things are looking up for the boy and he's innocent. That would be a million times better than simply being deemed incompetent to stand trail.

The wait is painful.

It's painful for us, and I try to imagine what it's like for CR and wish I could take away some of his anguish and anxiety. CR and his attorneys and the judge get one of my very first prayers every morning.

[Its just me]

I was under the impression that competency was the preimminent issue to the judge. Looks like maybe things are looking up for the boy and he's innocent. That would be a million times better than simply being deemed incompetent to stand trail.

The wait is painful.

I don't understand much about the legal system but experts for the defense and prosecution were suppose to testify at the scheduled competency hearing.

If I understand it correct the subpoena of Ms.Hines came from the Defense so I don't feel she has much to offer that will hurt CR.

I agree the wait is painful. fep

[FDInLaw]

Dying for more info like everyone else, but it does help to know that CR's furlough has been extended. I bet this is significant.

[Owl]

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/stories/st-johns-local-news-012909-dismiss-charge.152cf589.html

[Owl]

Here's another;

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-boy-accused-of-2-murders-still-at-home/8qVuIvugf0aQYi0LsIf1ZA.cspx

[Its just me]

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf (http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf)

The February 13, 2009 Competency Hearing has been vacated and will be reset upon consultation with the evaluators.
fep

ETA: I'm pretty sure the court transcripts brought out that there is a problem scheduling both experts to be in court at the same time. I hope it's more but that may be the only reason the hearing was vacated.

[tr7fan]

Thanks for posting the time. . . I was hoping the hearing would take place earlier in the day. *sigh*

Do you have any thoughts on what we might hear?

hearing changed to the 12th and the competency hearing has vacated
i hope they let the boy stay out . sounds to me like some horse tradin is being done in lieu of official hearings

[Its just me]

I like to read Jacobtk's posts at IS. Here is a snip of a recent post. It would be wonderful if there is evidence that points to CR being innocent. For now I can only hope and pray. :rose: For all involved. fep

As i said, there is likely something substantive at issue. The case may be moving away from competency being the issue (given that the hearing was vacated without a new date being set) and more towards whether the boy committed the acts.

[tr7fan]

the inside skinny is the boy is innocent i heard that like a week ago from someone that would know
like you said also i heard the state declared him incompetent.
if he wasnt crazy before all this stuff would make anyone crazzy
im just guessing on that and reading the orders on the web site
its done is the way i see it dont know exactly what is goin on .
i feel that everyone is sayin yea both sides declared him incompetent game over
like i said it the way it seems to me.
the judge can keep this up till the cows come home i guess.
im just guessing that there working on getting a date for a formal comptency hearing and that will be the end. i hope there is court ordered counseling cause that lil guy sure could use it. the therapist helped but seeing vinny and tim dead didnt help him any. i think hes in post traumatic shock
heck i thouht i had the scoop when i posted an that tv reporter and you all had it posted before i even read it on the web
i hope its over everyones been thru hell on this.
the bloggers on the wmicentral.com want blood for the most part :beer::beer::beer::beer:

[Owl]

Here's link with comments by Mr. Brewer. Not much, though.


http://www.eastvalleytribune.com:80/story/135031

[William Anthony]

Unreal.

You know, when I feel like making a generalized comment that doesn't apply to anyone in particular, I don't quote someone's post.

I'd like to think that we can post here unmolested. That we don't have to issue an official statement or go into ridiculous rigamarole qualifying and defending every post(s) that reflects opinions (as opposed to facts).

I do apologize as I see we do have a different opinion of the truth. I would direct your attention to post #951 and the subsequent ones. I respect your opinion as well as your right to have one and understand how you feel. As I have said twice before, but I feel it bears repeating. I am not here to post in an uncivil manner and do not desire to lock horns with you. I think that, if you want to post unmolested without going into ridiculous rhetoric to defend you posts, then you should respect that others do not want to engage in unpleasant, unwarranted defenses of their posts caused by uncalled for, unnecessary, untoward and undeserved criticism of theirs. I am mindful of the Biblical passage, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

[SaraSidle]

I also have a feeling the child is scared maybe due to being told by someone very close to him not to tell.
I would very much like to see that someone who has an inkling of humanity in them interviw this child and let him know he is safe and that he will not get into trouble telling the truth of what he knows. He needs to finish what he was saying.
TMHO.

I feel exactly the same way Seashell..........sara

[lorettalockhorn]

I do apologize as I see we do have a different opinion of the truth. I would direct your attention to post #951 and the subsequent ones. I respect your opinion as well as your right to have one and understand how you feel. As I have said twice before, but I feel it bears repeating. I am not here to post in an uncivil manner and do not desire to lock horns with you. I think that, if you want to post unmolested without going into ridiculous rhetoric to defend you posts, then you should respect that others do not want to engage in unpleasant, unwarranted defenses of their posts caused by uncalled for, unnecessary, untoward and undeserved criticism of theirs. I am mindful of the Biblical passage, do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Good Lord, man. (You are a man?) Is #951 the post where I said that ignorance is not bliss with regard to living with suspicions instead of the truth? Why should I have to explain that? It's my opinion. What is it exactly that you want from me? No one else is bashing me for thinking that the truth is better than what would be essentially a lie. Whether they're thinking it or not.

[William Anthony]

Good Lord, man. (You are a man?) Is #951 the post where I said that ignorance is not bliss with regard to living with suspicions instead of the truth? Why should I have to explain that? It's my opinion. What is it exactly that you want from me? No one else is bashing me for thinking that the truth is better than what would be essentially a lie. Whether they're thinking it or not.

I am not bashing you and can't figure out why you feel that way. You have been the one throwing insults my way. I simply pointed out that you commented directly to my post, taking umbrage to my statement. There is nothing that I want from you other than a civil discussion. I am at the point to believe that is impossible where the two of us are concerned. So, I will, out of respect to other members, not respond to your posts. I will not respond to your first question out of respect for you and me. I wish you nothing but the best in the remainder of your life. God speed and goodwill.

[lorettalockhorn]

I am not bashing you and can't figure out why you feel that way. You have been the one throwing insults my way. I simply pointed out that you commented directly to my post, taking umbrage to my statement. There is nothing that I want from you other than a civil discussion. I am at the point to believe that is impossible where the two of us are concerned. So, I will, out of respect to other members, not respond to your posts. I will not respond to your first question out of respect for you and me. I wish you nothing but the best in the remainder of your life. God speed and goodwill.

I went back and read #951, which was a direct response to you. I didn't take umbrage at your statement, but simply could not think of any instance where the truth is not of utmost importance. Guess I'm not one for living in a fools paradise.

Godspeed to you too.

[SaraSidle]

you know this is a wonderful forum with a small boy in trouble. I see a lot of seasoned posters here and I think it is possible if we all try to respect each others opinions and leave it at that. new posters are lurking and posting and Usually we are so very professional please keep it that way. I am done. you can bash me all you want but please let's concentrate on our young victim. IMO sara

[Seashell]

The collection of the clothes was done when the two officers went to the grandparent’s home the next morning to request they interview CR again.

The prosecution knew they screwed up the interview and violated the child's rights.

fep
Thank you :)

[Seashell]

I'm afraid we have an even longer wait - the hearing is postponed to next Thursday. Good news is the child is allowed to stay out of detention.

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/Cases/Press%20Releases/JV2008065%20PRESS%20RELEASE%20February%205,%202009 .pdf

Or top link here:
http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/releases.aspx
Thank you for letting us know :rose:

[martin II]

It warms my heart to see y'all getting better acquainted. :biggrin:

Here is a article about local and FBI failures in forensic testing and le experts court testimony. It may give some insight into le collection and testing in this case.

Perhaps the most powerful example of the National Academy’s prior influence on forensic science was a 2004 report discrediting the F.B.I. technique of matching the chemical signatures of lead in bullets at a crime scene to similar bullets possessed by a suspect. As a result, the agency had to notify hundreds of people who potentially had been wrongfully convicted.

In its current draft report, the National Academy wrote that the field suffered from a reliance on outmoded and untested theories by analysts who often have no background in science, statistics or other empirical disciplines.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/us/05forensics.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

[FDInLaw]

Here is a article about local and FBI failures in forensic testing and le experts court testimony. It may give some insight into le collection and testing in this case.

Perhaps the most powerful example of the National Academy’s prior influence on forensic science was a 2004 report discrediting the F.B.I. technique of matching the chemical signatures of lead in bullets at a crime scene to similar bullets possessed by a suspect. As a result, the agency had to notify hundreds of people who potentially had been wrongfully convicted.

In its current draft report, the National Academy wrote that the field suffered from a reliance on outmoded and untested theories by analysts who often have no background in science, statistics or other empirical disciplines.



http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/05/us/05forensics.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp
Excellent article! Thank you for sharing. :seeya:

[William Anthony]

I have gone back and read the questioning of DN again and will probably have to do it again. The important things,imho, are that they were able to verify that a call was made between Mr. and Ms. Romans' cell phones at 4;52 and that call lasted slightly over two minutes; there was blood found on the child's clothes, which had not been identified as belonging to anyone at that time; the child was allegedly not a suspect until about 5 minutes before the second interview was concluded; the clothes were collected from Liz's home, IIRC, but Liz did not give consent to the search, although other adult family members did; and, considering all these alleged facts, I now understand Sharlock's speculation. I searched for one statement in the questioning and it appears the question was never asked. I wonder why, since LE claimed to believe that the child was threatened and had saw the murders, BB did not ask the investigators if they ever told the child he would be protected, if he told them who shot the the victims. I do not remember reading that in the transcript of the interview.

If we assume that Mr. and Ms. Romans were speaking to each other, the time of Mr. Romans shooting must have been close to 4:55 pm. That time is in line with when the neighbors heard shots. We have the receipt placing Ms. Romero at the store at approximately 4:45, IIRC, from the questioning of
DN. This is the time that Ms. Romero said that the victims usually arrived home.

[FDInLaw]

Meantime, the competency hearing that was scheduled for February 6, which had been pushed back to February 13, has been vacated. A new date has yet to be set. http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-boy-accused-of-2-murders-still-at-home/8qVuIvugf0aQYi0LsIf1ZA.cspx


Am I being naive to hope that this means that there is exonerating evidence? I just don't understand why no date has been set for a competency hearing. :shrug:

[Owl]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-boy-accused-of-2-murders-still-at-home/8qVuIvugf0aQYi0LsIf1ZA.cspx


Am I being naive to hope that this means that there is exonerating evidence? I just don't understand why no date has been set for a competency hearing. :shrug:

That, or they're close to a deal. Perhaps comptetency won't be an issue.

[Owl]

From the East Valley Tribune;


In the meantime, defense attorneys have been fighting for the boy to be released from juvenile detention during the court proceedings. That issue likely will be resolved during a closed hearing next week in which defense attorneys plan to subpoena the director of juvenile detention, Brewer said.

The attorneys are looking to the director to provide an assessment of how the boy is faring in jail among other detainees who are at least a couple of years older, Brewer added.

The boy has been out of detention on a furlough for at least a week, and the court said Wednesday the furlough has been extended but that it had no further details. The boy has been released at least twice before, for Thanksgiving and Christmas, after which he appeared in court with new highlights in his hair.

Brewer, who has pushed for the case to move along more quickly, didn't appear concerned with the latest delay.

"As long as he's out, that changes the whole ball game as far as we're concerned," he said.

[Seashell]

The poor kid, i hope he is safe whilst inside ....

[Its just me]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-boy-accused-of-2-murders-still-at-home/8qVuIvugf0aQYi0LsIf1ZA.cspx


Am I being naive to hope that this means that there is exonerating evidence? I just don't understand why no date has been set for a competency hearing. :shrug:

I hope and pray there is exonerating evidence but what ever is going on I don't think CR will be taken back into custody.

There is a transcript where there were problems or possible problems concerning the two experts being able to schedule the hearing on the same day. Not setting a date for another hearing may be as simple as that but maybe its more in CR's favor.

I'm just so very Thankful that he has been released. fep

[tr7fan]

just thought id drop in and let ya all know someone posted on in session last nite
that alot of the people of st johns are gonna take their kids out of school if
cr is allowed back in school.
i cant believe how crazy things are getting there

[tr7fan]

I hope and pray there is exonerating evidence but what ever is going on I don't think CR will be taken back into custody.

There is a transcript where there were problems or possible problems concerning the two experts being able to schedule the hearing on the same day. Not setting a date for another hearing may be as simple as that but maybe its more in CR's favor.

I'm just so very Thankful that he has been released. fep

somebody "reliable": told me the state can not prove its case against cr :confused::confused:

[Owl]

just thought id drop in and let ya all know someone posted on in session last nite
that alot of the people of st johns are gonna take their kids out of school if
cr is allowed back in school.
i cant believe how crazy things are getting there

The townsfolk can't just pretend that nothing happened. At least until the boy is exonerated. If that happens I hope, and expect, that their fear will turn into compassion.

Isn't he going to MS with his mom if he's turned loose? In the meantime I guess he'll have to be tutored while the case drags on. Judge Roca won't let him leave Apache County AZ.

[Its just me]

Forgive me if this has been posted already;

Wedding pictures and comments


http://ktar.net/blogs/dankarlo/2008/11/21/vince-and-tiffany-wedding-photos/

Thanks for posting this...I'm just getting around to viewing it. I saw where someone made the comment about Mrs. Romero taking off her wedding band etc. and a comment was made about her where abouts. Interesting. fep

[Its just me]

CR and this case never gets too far from my thoughts and prayers. There is a lot of information lacking to make things fit but I'm having a problem understanding Mrs. Romero's trips to the store and the video Neckel talks about.

Mrs. Romero makes the first trip to the store and buys donuts and milk and according to the Neckel there is a receipt that puts her at the store around 4:45. I don't have the time for the first trip handy but IIRC it was in less than an hour before the second trip.

Neckel knows there is a murder that happened around 5 pm. She goes to the store to collect the video, which shows Mrs. Romero buying the milk and donuts....For the life of me I can not understand why Neckel did not get the video up until 5 pm which would have included Mrs. Romero's second trip. She didn't wait days to get the video because Neckel told Mrs. R about seeing her on the video when Mrs.Romero provided the receipt for the second trip. Another one of these :shrug:. fep

[SaraSidle]

Thanks for posting this...I'm just getting around to viewing it. I saw where someone made the comment about Mrs. Romero taking off her wedding band etc. and a comment was made about her where abouts. Interesting. fep

I agree fep very interesting sara

[FDInLaw]

CR and this case never gets too far from my thoughts and prayers. There is a lot of information lacking to make things fit but I'm having a problem understanding Mrs. Romero's trips to the store and the video Neckel talks about.

Mrs. Romero makes the first trip to the store and buys donuts and milk and according to the Neckel there is a receipt that puts her at the store around 4:45. I don't have the time for the first trip handy but IIRC it was in less than an hour before the second trip.

Neckel knows there is a murder that happened around 5 pm. She goes to the store to collect the video, which shows Mrs. Romero buying the milk and donuts....For the life of me I can not understand why Neckel did not get the video up until 5 pm which would have included Mrs. Romero's second trip. She didn't wait days to get the video because Neckel told Mrs. R about seeing her on the video when Mrs.Romero provided the receipt for the second trip. Another one of these :shrug:. fep
:eek: So, that would have made sense! Hummmm :cool:

[lorettalockhorn]

CR and this case never gets too far from my thoughts and prayers. There is a lot of information lacking to make things fit but I'm having a problem understanding Mrs. Romero's trips to the store and the video Neckel talks about.

Mrs. Romero makes the first trip to the store and buys donuts and milk and according to the Neckel there is a receipt that puts her at the store around 4:45. I don't have the time for the first trip handy but IIRC it was in less than an hour before the second trip.

Neckel knows there is a murder that happened around 5 pm. She goes to the store to collect the video, which shows Mrs. Romero buying the milk and donuts....For the life of me I can not understand why Neckel did not get the video up until 5 pm which would have included Mrs. Romero's second trip. She didn't wait days to get the video because Neckel told Mrs. R about seeing her on the video when Mrs.Romero provided the receipt for the second trip. Another one of these :shrug:. fep

Wasn't there an explanation somewhere that the video of the second trip had been looped/recorded over already? Or did that happen because the officer didn't ask for the correct timeframe? Luckily the Widow Romero had the receipt. (And my OCD self wants to know if it was right there in the trash, or if she had saved it because she used her credit card, or if she saves all of her reciepts, or what.)

Also, thanks to Martin II for the link to the article earlier!

[tr7fan]

The townsfolk can't just pretend that nothing happened. At least until the boy is exonerated. If that happens I hope, and expect, that their fear will turn into compassion.

Isn't he going to MS with his mom if he's turned loose? In the meantime I guess he'll have to be tutored while the case drags on. Judge Roca won't let him leave Apache County AZ.

i read she moved back to arizona. i think its kinda stupid of the people to do that. they should know the judge isnt gonna let someone out of jail that could be a danger to the public :shrug::beer::beer:

[Owl]

i read she moved back to arizona. i think its kinda stupid of the people to do that. they should know the judge isnt gonna let someone out of jail that could be a danger to the public :shrug::beer::beer:


Small town jitters. I suppose.
Ms. Bloomfield has family in St. Johns, doesn't she?

[sharlock]

just thought id drop in and let ya all know someone posted on in session last nite
that alot of the people of st johns are gonna take their kids out of school if
cr is allowed back in school.
i cant believe how crazy things are getting there
I can't understand that. I personally wouldn't mind even if he were in my son's class.
Seems unlikely to me that his mum wouldn't move far away from the town with CR anyway.

[William Anthony]

I can't understand that. I personally wouldn't mind even if he were in my son's class.
Seems unlikely to me that his mum wouldn't move far away from the town with CR anyway.

I think it would be wise of the child's mother to take him and move as far away as possible, if the child is released for any other reason than a trial proving him not guilty. It seems that the stigma has already attached to the child. I have to ask myself, why, since the child has been with his mother for a while, there has been no information that the child has said or named someone else as the murderer. There are still too many unanswered questions, which that fact may be causing some of the apprehension felt by the community. I think in this instance, as far as the community is concerned when it comes to protection of their children, they have a desire to reasonably believe they know the truth. suspicion for them is more damaging than truth, especially when it comes to this child and their children.

[William Anthony]

Some questions I have.

If the murders were a robbery gone bad, why was no money taken?

If someone had a contract out on the victims, why not make it look like a robbery?

If Ms. Romero hired the murderer(s) and what the child says is true, she wouldn't have known that the child was not there and would she have wanted the child murdered?

If Ms. Romans hired the murderer(s), why did she want Mr. Romero killed, meaning why did she not inform the murderer(s) of what she knew about Mr. Romans' tendencies and when he would likely be alone?

If someone wanted the murders committed for insurance reasons, did they not take into account that provisions were made for the child?

If there was insurance money left, who would likely get custody of the child and benefit from any money left?

If Ms. Romans called her husband at 4:52, who answered his phone, if he was dead around 4:30?

If the child saw a white car speeding past him on his way home, how could he shoot at it a half an hour later?

If someone came to kill a person(s), why not bring their own weapon?

If the mother noticed a change in the child and he had become distant, did she ever express her concerns to the father of any professional?

Do I have the right to even want to have these questions answered?

Doesn't the right to a public or non public trial belong to the defendant?

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

[Its just me]

Wasn't there an explanation somewhere that the video of the second trip had been looped/recorded over already? Or did that happen because the officer didn't ask for the correct timeframe? Luckily the Widow Romero had the receipt. (And my OCD self wants to know if it was right there in the trash, or if she had saved it because she used her credit card, or if she saves all of her reciepts, or what.)

Also, thanks to Martin II for the link to the article earlier!


The explaination of the video is explained here starting on page 45 IIRC. http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Neckel.pdf
Mrs. Romero's first trip was at 4:20 which was on the video. Neckel states she saw the video of Mrs. Romero buying milk and donuts. Mrs. Romero's second trip to the store was at 4:45 to buy speghetti....25 minutes after the first trip but there is not a video of the second trip. My question is why not retrieve the video up to 5 pm the approx. time of the crime which would have included the second trip by Mrs. Romero. According to Neckel and Mrs. Romero talking Neckel claims she was not aware of the second trip at 4:45. There is nothing reported about the 4:45 trip not being available when the 4:20 trip was retrieved from the store's video...it just wasn't gotten for some reason that makes no sense to me. Neckel states after she found out the next day there was the second trip the video was no longer available but by luck Mrs.Romero has a receipt for the speghetti stuff at the 4:45 visit. Neckel said the receipt matches the store's cash register receipt that these items were purchased but because of stupid, neglect or on purpose there is no video to show who purchased the items. :shrug: The 4:45 video should have should been included in the same video as the 4:20. IMHOO fep

ETA: FWIW Neckel went to the Romero home the next day not to question Mrs.Romero but to get a layout of the house. It just accidently happened that the 4:45 time frame for Mrs. Romero was determined. fep

[Its just me]

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

If I'm not mistaken the speedy trial became a part of this case. Brewer also asked for a jury trial but Judge Roco denied his motion. fep

[William Anthony]

If I'm not mistaken the speedy trial became a part of this case. Brewer also asked for a jury trial but Judge Roco denied his motion. fep

In doing some research, I have found that the case law is that the 6th Amendment refers to federal prosecutions and the 14th applies to states. The question in my mind is how juveniles are allowed to be treated differently from other defendants but have considered the fact that, if they are not, then they are subject to the same punishment as older offenders. In any event, it seems that judge Roca was within his rights to deny a jury trial, at that point.

http://www.dra1065.qwestoffice.net/juvenile.htm

Now, in regard to our rights to know, see this. It seems it is up to the court's discretion.

http://www.aacj.org/arizona-constitution.php

“All proceedings and matters involving juveniles accused of unlawful conduct shall be open to the public and all records of those proceedings shall be public records. Exceptions shall be made only for the protection of the privacy of innocent victims of crime, or when a court of competent jurisdiction finds a clear public interest in confidentiality.”

http://www.co.apache.az.us/attorney/juvenile_criminal_case_process.htm

This is on the right to a speedy trial.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Speedy+trial

[lorettalockhorn]

The explaination of the video is explained here starting on page 45 IIRC. http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Neckel.pdf

...ETA: FWIW Neckel went to the Romero home the next day not to question Mrs.Romero but to get a layout of the house. It just accidently happened that the 4:45 time frame for Mrs. Romero was determined. fep

Thanks! That's the interview that I had read before, and I guess I was questioning how coincidental it is that the second trip wasn't on the video since it was only fifteen or so minutes later. Maybe since Neckel was recording off the store video she simply stopped when TR left the store the first time. It seems odd that Tiffany didn't buy the spaghetti ingredients on the first trip. (And it seems odd that store personnel apparently didn't tell Neckel that TR came back a second time.) Maybe Tiffany was afraid the items would spoil (even though it was only fifty or so degrees), but then after she did go back to the store, she stopped at Napa. Don't know why it bugs me that she had the receipt, since it would appear that she is disorganized and domestically challenged. I guess the miracle isn't that she had the receipt, but that she could find it.

[Its just me]

Thanks! That's the interview that I had read before, and I guess I was questioning how coincidental it is that the second trip wasn't on the video since it was only fifteen or so minutes later. Maybe since Neckel was recording off the store video she simply stopped when TR left the store the first time. It seems odd that Tiffany didn't buy the spaghetti ingredients on the first trip. (And it seems odd that store personnel apparently didn't tell Neckel that TR came back a second time.) Maybe Tiffany was afraid the items would spoil (even though it was only fifty or so degrees), but then after she did go back to the store, she stopped at Napa. Don't know why it bugs me that she had the receipt, since it would appear that she is disorganized and domestically challenged. I guess the miracle isn't that she had the receipt, but that she could find it.

LOL I agree. Even CR seemed to be ashamed of his room...IIRC he described it as being dirty. Poor child. I am bugged by the grocery store, video, receipt and Neckel's visit. Notice how Neckel states Mrs. R mentioned how dirty her kitchen was and she still had her bags from the grocery store on the kitchen counter. When did she put them there is the big question for me? In my opinion Neckel caught what she had said and tried to straighten it out by adding Mrs.R had said something had gone smelly in her car. With the temperature being around 50 during the day it would have been colder through out the night and morning and I'll bet all I own that what was purchased at 4:45 did not smell by the next day. Not sure what the temp is in my refrigerator but it’s several degrees above 32. WHY bring in smelly food and put it on your counter anyway. fep

snip from Brewer questioning Neckel.

BB: How do you, how do you know that?
DN: …4:30, 4:20. Because we, we took the time of the receipts, and we took, uh, we, actually called dispatch to, um, for the, video that was playing live, and the time it was stating, and we have the dispatch time, we showed ten minutes off. So, the actual video, I believe, shows 3:30, so she was there at, ah, I keep saying three, 4:30, so she was there at 4:20. And, we got the receipts. I knew that, when she le, I did the actually investigation on, on her alibi, so, we knew that she had stopped out in front of Wilbur’s, and she had spoken to Jean and Jason Kirk, from DPeh, er, from, St. Johns Emergency Services, and then she had gone into, um, Napa. But, the times were slightly, I, I didn’t know, I was waiting for, a, statement from Jean and Jason, if they had received any phone calls that they could actually pinpoint the time. In the meantime I had gone over ta Tiffany’s house ta ask her a question, and, I was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.

[FDInLaw]

LOL I agree. Even CR seemed to be ashamed of his room...IIRC he described it as being dirty. Poor child. I am bugged by the grocery store, video, receipt and Neckel's visit. Notice how Neckel states Mrs. R mentioned how dirty her kitchen was and she still had her bags from the grocery store on the kitchen counter. When did she put them there is the big question for me? In my opinion Neckel caught what she had said and tried to straighten it out by adding Mrs.R had said something had gone smelly in her car. With the temperature being around 50 during the day it would have been colder through out the night and morning and I'll bet all I own that what was purchased at 4:45 did not smell by the next day. Not sure what the temp is in my refrigerator but it’s several degrees above 32. WHY bring in smelly food and put it on your counter anyway. fep

snip from Brewer questioning Neckel.

BB: How do you, how do you know that?
DN: …4:30, 4:20. Because we, we took the time of the receipts, and we took, uh, we, actually called dispatch to, um, for the, video that was playing live, and the time it was stating, and we have the dispatch time, we showed ten minutes off. So, the actual video, I believe, shows 3:30, so she was there at, ah, I keep saying three, 4:30, so she was there at 4:20. And, we got the receipts. I knew that, when she le, I did the actually investigation on, on her alibi, so, we knew that she had stopped out in front of Wilbur’s, and she had spoken to Jean and Jason Kirk, from DPeh, er, from, St. Johns Emergency Services, and then she had gone into, um, Napa. But, the times were slightly, I, I didn’t know, I was waiting for, a, statement from Jean and Jason, if they had received any phone calls that they could actually pinpoint the time. In the meantime I had gone over ta Tiffany’s house ta ask her a question, and, I was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.
Thank you for posting this! It's too bad that LE did not nab the video in time.

[Its just me]

Thank you for posting this! It's too bad that LE did not nab the video in time.

YW. If all the video had been copied everything might be hunky dorey but it may not. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

YW. If all the video had been copied everything might be hunky dorey but it may not. fep

You know, it seems to me that in many states, a video is not admissible in court unless it's shown in its entirety, or at least submitted to evidence in entirety. For whatever reason when checking out Mrs. Romero's alibi, Neckels didn't simply seize the video which I'll assume would have shown both her shopping trips. And I don't see how it's possible that the store personnel wouldn't have remembered that she actually made two trips in less than an hour. Wouldn't that have been Neckel's clue to videotape the entire videotape?? What was the reason for copying the store's video anyway?

Like you, I wonder what would be the reason for the widow to bring those supposedly spoiled groceries into the house. A refrigerator should be 40° or less; no reason to believe that a November night in Arizona wouldn't be forty degrees or less.

[SaraSidle]

You know, it seems to me that in many states, a video is not admissible in court unless it's shown in its entirety, or at least submitted to evidence in entirety. For whatever reason when checking out Mrs. Romero's alibi, Neckels didn't simply seize the video which I'll assume would have shown both her shopping trips. And I don't see how it's possible that the store personnel wouldn't have remembered that she actually made two trips in less than an hour. Wouldn't that have been Neckel's clue to videotape the entire videotape?? What was the reason for copying the store's video anyway?

Like you, I wonder what would be the reason for the widow to bring those supposedly spoiled groceries into the house. A refrigerator should be 40° or less; no reason to believe that a November night in Arizona wouldn't be forty degrees or less.


excellent point loretta thank you

[tr7fan]

Some questions I have.

If the murders were a robbery gone bad, why was no money taken?

If someone had a contract out on the victims, why not make it look like a robbery?

If Ms. Romero hired the murderer(s) and what the child says is true, she wouldn't have known that the child was not there and would she have wanted the child murdered?

If Ms. Romans hired the murderer(s), why did she want Mr. Romero killed, meaning why did she not inform the murderer(s) of what she knew about Mr. Romans' tendencies and when he would likely be alone?

If someone wanted the murders committed for insurance reasons, did they not take into account that provisions were made for the child?

If there was insurance money left, who would likely get custody of the child and benefit from any money left?

If Ms. Romans called her husband at 4:52, who answered his phone, if he was dead around 4:30?

If the child saw a white car speeding past him on his way home, how could he shoot at it a half an hour later?

If someone came to kill a person(s), why not bring their own weapon?

If the mother noticed a change in the child and he had become distant, did she ever express her concerns to the father of any professional?

Do I have the right to even want to have these questions answered?

Doesn't the right to a public or non public trial belong to the defendant?

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

Amendment VII

well all i can say is ive been advised by a reliable source the kid is innocent
but your right gettin the heck out of dodge is the best idea i can think of.
in terms of education,he was allegedly being schooled at the detention center so unless the school district is willing to give him a separate teacher which it probably wouldnt maybe the detention center can still do that for him. this thing is getting so crazy i wouldnt go within a hundred miles of that town
heres their bloghttp://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20252056&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows=10

[William Anthony]

I don't have a problem with Ms. Romero leaving her bags on the counter or something turning sour in her car. I am reading the statement differently. I am reading it as she forgot to get the spaghetti stuff on her first trip and, while presumably headed home, stopped at Napa when the called was received. Given the fact that her husband was brutally murdered and the child saw two dead bodies and all the family members in grief and bewilderment, I can understand her leaving groceries in the car and that those groceries smelled by the time she remembered them. I also have read the interview of DN and see that the store video goes off at a certain time. Unless it can be shown that Ms. Romero had prior knowledge that the video went off at a certain time, I see nothing untoward. In fact, if I wanted to provide an alibi and knew what time the video stopped, I would make sure that I was on the video. I would then go someplace and talk to someone I knew, making sure that they would remember the conversation. Perhaps, I would tell someone to use the child's riffle. However, how would I know that the child would not beat the victims home? It just seems all too risky to me and why would she want both men murdered. I guess what I am saying is that it is understandable under the circumstances.

[William Anthony]

well all i can say is ive been advised by a reliable source the kid is innocent
but your right gettin the heck out of dodge is the best idea i can think of.
in terms of education,he was allegedly being schooled at the detention center so unless the school district is willing to give him a separate teacher which it probably wouldnt maybe the detention center can still do that for him. this thing is getting so crazy i wouldnt go within a hundred miles of that town
heres their bloghttp://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20252056&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows=10

I must believe that you have the utmost trust in your source. If that is the case, then the 4:52 phone call is a complete and total mystery, unless your source is saying that the child witnessed the murders.

[FDInLaw]

well all i can say is ive been advised by a reliable source the kid is innocentbut your right gettin the heck out of dodge is the best idea i can think of.
in terms of education,he was allegedly being schooled at the detention center so unless the school district is willing to give him a separate teacher which it probably wouldnt maybe the detention center can still do that for him. this thing is getting so crazy i wouldnt go within a hundred miles of that town
heres their bloghttp://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20252056&brd=2264&pag=797&dept_id=506182&startrow=1&maxrows=10
My advice, wait for actual physical evidence to be known and make up your own mind. I've been told the same thing before, and now another man is awaiting trial. . . learn from my mistakes. ;)
Your source may well be right and I hope they are, but don't bet any cash on any one person's opinion no matter who they are!

MOO

[lorettalockhorn]

just thought id drop in and let ya all know someone posted on in session last nite
that alot of the people of st johns are gonna take their kids out of school if
cr is allowed back in school.
i cant believe how crazy things are getting there

Missed this earlier. It reminds me of how idiotically people reacted to Ryan White. When/if this is resolved (and soon), let's hope that CR has the opportunity to start a new life.

[tr7fan]

Thank you for posting this! It's too bad that LE did not nab the video in time.

somebody told me that tiffanys alibi was she had sent a fax to someone sometime that day :beer::beer::beer::beer:

[tr7fan]

I must believe that you have the utmost trust in your source. If that is the case, then the 4:52 phone call is a complete and total mystery, unless your source is saying that the child witnessed the murders.

no info on that but another person verifies the 452p call but there watch could have been off. vinnie and tim
were on there way to fix an old ladies cablinets and vinnie whatd to swing by the house and pick something up. tim was sitting in the truck talking to his wife when he said cr was calling him to come in the house something was wrong. so he told his wife hed call back later. what im wondering is if tanya heard a voice that sounded like cr. ive met some adults that have a child like voice
ieverybody ive seen posting say that when they were crs age they couldnt have
handled a gun as well as he is alleged to. that or whose 452 pm time was it .
i noticed neckle said she called the station to see what the time was wheh she was looking at the video at wilburs. she said the wilburs tape was 1o minutes
off the polices time but whose to say the time at the station was right
evryone involved probably had a differeent time by 2-5 minutes .
they sound sure he is innocent so that would imply thevve resolved the time thing. then youve got everyone saying what time it was and that could be off some. i also read somewhere that the romeros didnt lock there doors so anyone could have slipped in hid in a closet and waited. iirc someone said there was a closet at the bottom of the stairs in the house. when i go to see the dr. i leave 15 minutes before im supposed to get there and when i get there the time is like 10 minutes earlier than it was when i left the house on my time. my dad got me a ss 22 when i was a kid and it was all i could do to carry it, when i shot it id rest the stock on something to keep it accurate.
it seems i remember somebody saying something about having a suspect i think it was ron wood in one of his interviews but i havent been able to find that again
with the blood trail in the driveway that would seem to indicate tim was walking up to the house the shooter swung open the screen and nailed him
if theyd been standing on the porch he would have seen them and he had that 45 in his truck. rumors had it he had that and 44 magnum in the truck.
:beer::beer: so

[lorettalockhorn]

>>the romeros didnt lock there doors so anyone could have slipped in hid in a closet and waited.

My understanding is that they kept the back door locked, but the front door unlocked. Any number of people could have known that and anyone could have been in the house waiting to ambush any member of the family including CR on the days that he arrived home to a supposedly empty house.

[tr7fan]

http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515
as bad as this looks i bet the judge knows about it already
the report was done by az dept of public safety

[William Anthony]

no info on that but another person verifies the 452p call but there watch could have been off. vinnie and tim
were on there way to fix an old ladies cablinets and vinnie whatd to swing by the house and pick something up. tim was sitting in the truck talking to his wife when he said cr was calling him to come in the house something was wrong. so he told his wife hed call back later. what im wondering is if tanya heard a voice that sounded like cr. ive met some adults that have a child like voice
ieverybody ive seen posting say that when they were crs age they couldnt have
handled a gun as well as he is alleged to. that or whose 452 pm time was it .
i noticed neckle said she called the station to see what the time was wheh she was looking at the video at wilburs. she said the wilburs tape was 1o minutes
off the polices time but whose to say the time at the station was right
evryone involved probably had a differeent time by 2-5 minutes .
they sound sure he is innocent so that would imply thevve resolved the time thing. then youve got everyone saying what time it was and that could be off some. i also read somewhere that the romeros didnt lock there doors so anyone could have slipped in hid in a closet and waited. iirc someone said there was a closet at the bottom of the stairs in the house. when i go to see the dr. i leave 15 minutes before im supposed to get there and when i get there the time is like 10 minutes earlier than it was when i left the house on my time. my dad got me a ss 22 when i was a kid and it was all i could do to carry it, when i shot it id rest the stock on something to keep it accurate.
it seems i remember somebody saying something about having a suspect i think it was ron wood in one of his interviews but i havent been able to find that again
with the blood trail in the driveway that would seem to indicate tim was walking up to the house the shooter swung open the screen and nailed him
if theyd been standing on the porch he would have seen them and he had that 45 in his truck. rumors had it he had that and 44 magnum in the truck.
:beer::beer: so

The 4:52 time was verified by phone records, according to my understanding. I would go more by Ms. Romans written statement than Ms. Nickles' hearsay report of a hearsay remark made by another LE member. It was Ms. Nickles' report of her recollection of what another LE member said Ms. Romans told him. The tape could have been off but it could have been off by ten minutes.

The point is that Mr. Romans was alive after 4:52 and I can not see him saying that the child was calling him, if he wasn't. The fact that Mr. Romans did not take his gun tells me that he either did not hear any shots, heard the shots and believed there had been an accident. He would have felt comfortable leaving his gun if he felt the child accidentally shot Mr. Romero, imho. I tend to believe that the child must have seen something.

If your source is knowledgeable and reliable, then it would appear that LE further investigated and that investigation has not been leaked.

[Its just me]

http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515
as bad as this looks i bet the judge knows about it already
the report was done by az dept of public safety

Thank You, For some reason I'm not surprised by some of the things reported. There is no doubt that everyone involved knows every detail of this "sad and distrubing" case.

The reporter is showing what looks like legal documents and you said the report was done by the dept of public safety...I'm not familiar with the term "dept of public safety". Would they have access to "all" the information not available to the public on the case...or is this a seperate investigation on part of the dept. of public safety.
Again Thank You. fep

[William Anthony]

http://www.azdps.gov/

[Owl]

Where did you find that info?

The boys says the back door is always locked in the 'confession tape'. Don't know if it's a keyed deadbolt lock, inside and out, or one with a lever on the inside and key on the outside.

[lorettalockhorn]

http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515
as bad as this looks i bet the judge knows about it already
the report was done by az dept of public safety

Thanks tr7. Were these shocking details reported before the murders? Have the DPS reports been made public/posted?

[FDInLaw]

Oh my, the police missed some bloodly clothes while processing the crime scene and some idiots thought it was okay to throw them away!!!! SERIOUSLY??? :cuss:

I wonder if the blood is from the victims? Glad LE was able to retrieve the items.

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh my, the police missed some bloodly clothes while processing the crime scene and some idiots thought it was okay to throw them away!!!! SERIOUSLY??? :cuss:

I wonder if the blood is from the victims? Glad LE was able to retrieve the items.

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html

WAIT! Did Romero slap the boy, or only say, "how dare you say that"?

And the boy is now manipulative and misbehaves a school? I thought we had read there were no issues at school.

The underwear was in the upstairs hallway? Since when? Before, during, or after the police processed the scene?

[Twinners]

LOL I agree. Even CR seemed to be ashamed of his room...IIRC he described it as being dirty. Poor child. I am bugged by the grocery store, video, receipt and Neckel's visit. Notice how Neckel states Mrs. R mentioned how dirty her kitchen was and she still had her bags from the grocery store on the kitchen counter. When did she put them there is the big question for me? In my opinion Neckel caught what she had said and tried to straighten it out by adding Mrs.R had said something had gone smelly in her car. With the temperature being around 50 during the day it would have been colder through out the night and morning and I'll bet all I own that what was purchased at 4:45 did not smell by the next day. Not sure what the temp is in my refrigerator but it’s several degrees above 32. WHY bring in smelly food and put it on your counter anyway. fep

snip from Brewer questioning Neckel.

BB: How do you, how do you know that?
DN: …4:30, 4:20. Because we, we took the time of the receipts, and we took, uh, we, actually called dispatch to, um, for the, video that was playing live, and the time it was stating, and we have the dispatch time, we showed ten minutes off. So, the actual video, I believe, shows 3:30, so she was there at, ah, I keep saying three, 4:30, so she was there at 4:20. And, we got the receipts. I knew that, when she le, I did the actually investigation on, on her alibi, so, we knew that she had stopped out in front of Wilbur’s, and she had spoken to Jean and Jason Kirk, from DPeh, er, from, St. Johns Emergency Services, and then she had gone into, um, Napa. But, the times were slightly, I, I didn’t know, I was waiting for, a, statement from Jean and Jason, if they had received any phone calls that they could actually pinpoint the time. In the meantime I had gone over ta Tiffany’s house ta ask her a question, and, I was talking ta her, and she, she mentioned how, dirty her kitchen was and, she still had her bags from, the grocery store, on her, um, on the kitchen counter. And I asked her, um, I said is that what you bought that day, cuz she’d said something had gone smelly in her car. And she said yeah, that’s the spaghetti stuff and I said, Tiffany, I didn’t see any spaghetti stuff on the video. And she says, what video? And I said, the video at the store. And, she said, well what did you see? And I said, milk. And she said, oh, milk and doughnuts, she says, that was the first time I went to the store. She says, I went back after that and I got all the stuff fer the spaghetti. She says I think I still have the receipt. And, so, she did find that receipt and I did match it to the store receipts. So she was back in there fer the spaghetti items, but it was already off the video. They didn’t have the video any longer.

If I'm understanding correctly, the "spaghetti stuff" she bought is what ended up stinking up her car. If that is correct, then I don't understand why she'd carrying the bags containing the stinky food inside the house and sit them on the counter. Furthermore, if those were the bags with the smelly spaghetti stuff, why didn't the officer who was in the kitchen with her mention and/or make note of the smell?

[Owl]

Hamburger meat is last on the list of questionable items. The latest information provides motive. Plain and simple.
Mrs. Romero isn't a suspect. Neither is Mrs. Romans (bless her for her suffering).
Things look bad for the boy. All evidence points to him. Apache County PD, including St. John's PD, has been portrayed as incompetent and incomplete. Now it looks as if they have been very active. A multitude of interviews.
No one else has been implicated. The boy's story and the evidence of empty casings using the Chipmunk rifle match the crime scene perfectly.
Burden of proof?

[Twinners]

Hamburger meat is last on the list of questionable items. The latest information provides motive. Plain and simple.
Mrs. Romero isn't a suspect. Neither is Mrs. Romans (bless her for her suffering).
Things look bad for the boy. All evidence points to him. Apache County PD, including St. John's PD, has been portrayed as incompetent and incomplete. Now it looks as if they have been very active. A multitude of interviews.
No one else has been implicated. The boy's story and the evidence of empty casings using the Chipmunk rifle match the crime scene perfectly.
Burden of proof?

Yes, you're right. Stinky meat doesn't matter. I guess I'm just nitpicking her because I hold her, and all the other adults in the boy's life, much more responsible for any actions he may have taken than I do him. He's eight and even if he is guilty of this horrific crime, I feel he's as much a victim as the two men who died are.

[sharlock]

I have gone back and read the questioning of DN again and will probably have to do it again. The important things,imho, are that they were able to verify that a call was made between Mr. and Ms. Romans' cell phones at 4;52 and that call lasted slightly over two minutes; there was blood found on the child's clothes, which had not been identified as belonging to anyone at that time; the child was allegedly not a suspect until about 5 minutes before the second interview was concluded; the clothes were collected from Liz's home, IIRC, but Liz did not give consent to the search, although other adult family members did; and, considering all these alleged facts, I now understand Sharlock's speculation. I searched for one statement in the questioning and it appears the question was never asked. I wonder why, since LE claimed to believe that the child was threatened and had saw the murders, BB did not ask the investigators if they ever told the child he would be protected, if he told them who shot the the victims. I do not remember reading that in the transcript of the interview.

If we assume that Mr. and Ms. Romans were speaking to each other, the time of Mr. Romans shooting must have been close to 4:55 pm. That time is in line with when the neighbors heard shots. We have the receipt placing Ms. Romero at the store at approximately 4:45, IIRC, from the questioning of
DN. This is the time that Ms. Romero said that the victims usually arrived home.
I am troubled buy the reports stating that the item of the child's clothing that had blood on it was his underpants, the picture of a boy with a black eye on his Dad's phone and the pornography on the other victims, reports of CR saying in front of people he would shoot or kill his dad, a woman accusing TR of sexually assaulting her. This just makes me ill. How did the blood end up on only this childs underpants??? Was it his own blood or one of the victims? Either way this poses more questions than answers imo.
http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515

[sharlock]

Hamburger meat is last on the list of questionable items. The latest information provides motive. Plain and simple.
Mrs. Romero isn't a suspect. Neither is Mrs. Romans (bless her for her suffering).
Things look bad for the boy. All evidence points to him. Apache County PD, including St. John's PD, has been portrayed as incompetent and incomplete. Now it looks as if they have been very active. A multitude of interviews.
No one else has been implicated. The boy's story and the evidence of empty casings using the Chipmunk rifle match the crime scene perfectly.
Burden of proof?
Owl imo motive for a child is very different than motive for an adult. If by motive you are referring to the blood on his underwear or the picture of child abuse on Mr Romero's phone? You know this may not have had anything to do with it. It has also been shown that another rifle that was in that house also used those same bullets and would have been a lot more effective than the child's little chipmunk. If per chance the child did have real motive and defended himself with a gun then that will not in my opinion point to him being a cold blooded killer either and I don't see much evidence really that points to him having shot them by himself yet. I do see the police desperately trying to make up for their botched investigation and they need it to be the child all on his own for them to be vindicated. I however don't see that even if this turns out to be the case that it would vindicate their actions. They are guilty of mishandling the initial investigation and innappropriately questioning a child and that can't be fixed in my opinion.

[William Anthony]

I am troubled buy the reports stating that the item of the child's clothing that had blood on it was his underpants, the picture of a boy with a black eye on his Dad's phone and the pornography on the other victims, reports of CR saying in front of people he would shoot or kill his dad, a woman accusing TR of sexually assaulting her. This just makes me ill. How did the blood end up on only this childs underpants??? Was it his own blood or one of the victims? Either way this poses more questions than answers imo.
http://www.azcentral.com/video/?type=mavenfull&id=videopage&videoID=1025059515

For some reason I got the understanding that the blood was found on the boy's jeans as it relates to the clothes he was wearing that night. I thought the blood in the underwear was from a different occasion. I understand your alarm about the things mentioned in your post. Something was amiss. Exactly what was amiss or the degree of to which things were awry remains to be known. The pornography on the phone of Mr. Romans does not bother me, unless it was child pornography or a link established that he engaged in it. The construction, railroad, teamsters, steel mill and coal mining trades,among others, have always been considered macho by many. Yes, the questions run rampant.

[Seashell]

Oh my, the police missed some bloodly clothes while processing the crime scene and some idiots thought it was okay to throw them away!!!! SERIOUSLY??? :cuss:

I wonder if the blood is from the victims? Glad LE was able to retrieve the items.

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html

on my own instinct from previous pages back i did also mention my concerns about this boy and how to me he seems scared.
Slowly and surelly we are hearing more evidence and it is alarming.
If you think the worst, you won't be far wrong.

[SaraSidle]

Owl imo motive for a child is very different than motive for an adult. If by motive you are referring to the blood on his underwear or the picture of child abuse on Mr Romero's phone? You know this may not have had anything to do with it. It has also been shown that another rifle that was in that house also used those same bullets and would have been a lot more effective than the child's little chipmunk. If per chance the child did have real motive and defended himself with a gun then that will not in my opinion point to him being a cold blooded killer either and I don't see much evidence really that points to him having shot them by himself yet. I do see the police desperately trying to make up for their botched investigation and they need it to be the child all on his own for them to be vindicated. I however don't see that even if this turns out to be the case that it would vindicate their actions. They are guilty of mishandling the initial investigation and innappropriately questioning a child and that can't be fixed in my opinion.

excellent post Sharlock and I totally agree. IMO sara

[Its just me]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-murder-reports-released-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

Dozens of pages of police investigative reports shed new light on the case of the 9-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in November, 2008.

The documents reveal interviews with family friends, neighbors and school workers who knew the victims, Vincent Romero, Tim Romans and the boy.

In one supplemental report filed by Det. David Cates and Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow, investigative interviews revealed one uncle said he overheard the boy threaten his own father.

According to the report, "[The uncle] overheard [the boy] say, 'One day I'm going to kill him.' [The uncle] told Vincent [Romero] what [the boy] said, and Vincent respnded by slapping [the boy]. The date of the incident remained undetermined."

Later in the supplemental report detectives learned, "the two cell phones belonging to Vincent Reomero and Timothy Romans contained photographs, which had been accessed by DPS Computer Forensics Unit (CFU) personnel... Vincent's telephone contained a photograph of a young boy, displaying what appeared to be a black eye." However, according to the reports, the identity of the young boy remained unclear.

In a separate supplement filed by Det. James Anderson and Sgt. M. Livingston, an interview with a "very close" cousin revealed "during a game of horse shoes at his family reunion on August 2, 2008, [the cousin] heard [the boy] tell his dad 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'll kill you dad.' [The cousin] stated he said it in anger. He said after [the boy] said it he ran off. [The cousin] said Vince told [the boy], 'How dare you say that.' [The cousin] did not recall anything that happned after that. [The cousin] stated that was the only time he had ever seen [the boy] act like that."

In the same report, the detective reported the estranged husband of the boy's biological mother stated "he had never seen [the boy] yell, scream, or throw a tantrum." He described the boy as "a 'good kid'. He stated [the boy] is 'Very,very,very intelligent.'"

A supplement filed by Det. Dennis Milius and Sgt. Dave Brevik revealed a neighbor "believed [the boy] to be a very polite boy and always showed her respect."

A supplement filed by Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow and Lt. Bruce Campbell stated Pinnow had received a telephone call from DPS Detective Michell Vasey from the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Teame Enforcement Mission.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."

----------------------------------------------

I'm trying to catch up...Sorry if this has been posted. fep

[FDInLaw]

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-murder-reports-released-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

Dozens of pages of police investigative reports shed new light on the case of the 9-year-old boy accused of killing his father and another man in November, 2008.

The documents reveal interviews with family friends, neighbors and school workers who knew the victims, Vincent Romero, Tim Romans and the boy.

In one supplemental report filed by Det. David Cates and Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow, investigative interviews revealed one uncle said he overheard the boy threaten his own father.

According to the report, "[The uncle] overheard [the boy] say, 'One day I'm going to kill him.' [The uncle] told Vincent [Romero] what [the boy] said, and Vincent respnded by slapping [the boy]. The date of the incident remained undetermined."

Later in the supplemental report detectives learned, "the two cell phones belonging to Vincent Reomero and Timothy Romans contained photographs, which had been accessed by DPS Computer Forensics Unit (CFU) personnel... Vincent's telephone contained a photograph of a young boy, displaying what appeared to be a black eye." However, according to the reports, the identity of the young boy remained unclear.

In a separate supplement filed by Det. James Anderson and Sgt. M. Livingston, an interview with a "very close" cousin revealed "during a game of horse shoes at his family reunion on August 2, 2008, [the cousin] heard [the boy] tell his dad 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'll kill you dad.' [The cousin] stated he said it in anger. He said after [the boy] said it he ran off. [The cousin] said Vince told [the boy], 'How dare you say that.' [The cousin] did not recall anything that happned after that. [The cousin] stated that was the only time he had ever seen [the boy] act like that."

In the same report, the detective reported the estranged husband of the boy's biological mother stated "he had never seen [the boy] yell, scream, or throw a tantrum." He described the boy as "a 'good kid'. He stated [the boy] is 'Very,very,very intelligent.'"

A supplement filed by Det. Dennis Milius and Sgt. Dave Brevik revealed a neighbor "believed [the boy] to be a very polite boy and always showed her respect."

A supplement filed by Sgt. Jennifer Pinnow and Lt. Bruce Campbell stated Pinnow had received a telephone call from DPS Detective Michell Vasey from the Gang and Immigration Intelligence Teame Enforcement Mission.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."
----------------------------------------------

I'm trying to catch up...Sorry if this has been posted. fep:eek:This was new to me! Thanks for posting.

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks FEP, I much prefer reading a report to watching a video. Just don't know what to think about Vincent slapping the boy which is bad enough, but what of the photo of another boy with a black eye? Who would have that? And why? Were none of these alleged threats by CR ever reported before the killings? Thanks for verifying that Romero had a drug arrest history; I had read rumors, but had never seen a source.

Also don't know what to think about Romans' predilection for pornography. The Romeros surely knew about his philandering, and must have been okay with it as well as his drinking since Vince was his drinking buddy, but to allow someone with this penchant for the institutionalized degradation of women to live in their home and be near CR is sickening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't know and would have drawn the line there.

[Its just me]

Thanks FEP, I much prefer reading a report to watching a video. Just don't know what to think about Vincent slapping the boy which is bad enough, but what of the photo of another boy with a black eye? Who would have that? And why? Were none of these alleged threats by CR ever reported before the killings? Thanks for verifying that Romero had a drug arrest history; I had read rumors, but had never seen a source.

Also don't know what to think about Romans' predilection for pornography. The Romeros surely knew about his philandering, and must have been okay with it as well as his drinking since Vince was his drinking buddy, but to allow someone with this penchant for the institutionalized degradation of women to live in their home and be near CR is sickening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They didn't know and would have drawn the line there.


After it was reported that Mrs. Romero told CR what went on in their house stayed in the house I have questioned what kind of home it actually was. I'm like you and prefer reading an article to watching it on video. Below is a snip from my last post which was also reported on a recent video. When I watched the video it appeared it was a sure thing CR threatened to kill his Dad but in reading the article I'm not so sure. They were playing horse shoes and I think it's possible some horse play between the dad and son was going on as well.
One poster at IS posted "I'll kill you"..."I'm gonna kill you" is a common phrase among some people from that area. Hind sight is 20/20 and none of the threats doesn't seem to have been taken serious or I've not read where anyone reported it before the murders. All the latest about CR threatening his Dad "can" end up being a lot about nothing. Some of the threats being reported may also be hearsay.
Video's don't have quotation marks so I don't know if the reporter misunderstood or not....but if it's true that bloody pieces of clothing were found by the friends cleaning up the house in the upstairs hall after the crime scene had been processed there is more than spaghetti stuff stinking. I'll have to go back an read again to be 100% positive but I'm pretty sure Mrs. Romero took Neckel upstairs the next day when the stinky groc. were on the kitchen counter. IIRC Neckel reported there were bullets everywhere on the floor upstairs and she told about seeing CR's cell phone and asked Mrs. Romero about it. Had the friends cleaned the house before Neckel's visit...Doesn't sound like it to me. Something IS NOT right if bloody clothes were found after the scene was processed as reported on the video. fep

http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html (http://www.kpho.com/video/index.html)

snip from news article posted above.

In a separate supplement filed by Det. James Anderson and Sgt. M. Livingston, an interview with a "very close" cousin revealed "during a game of horse shoes at his family reunion on August 2, 2008, [the cousin] heard [the boy] tell his dad 'I'll shoot you' or 'I'll kill you dad.' [The cousin] stated he said it in anger. He said after [the boy] said it he ran off. [The cousin] said Vince told [the boy], 'How dare you say that.' [The cousin] did not recall anything that happned after that. [The cousin] stated that was the only time he had ever seen [the boy] act like that."

[lorettalockhorn]

IF there was bloody clothing in the hallway before the scene was processed, I cannot begin to imagine how it could have been left behind. Photographs of the scene should bear out if they were there unless they were found under a heap after LE finished. I can well imagine that the scene was difficult to process considering the condition of the house, but that just means that LE would have had to spend more time doing the work.

It's hard to believe that the cleaning friends would have thrown the clothing away, but at this point other than determining whose blood may be on the clothing, it may be impossible to determine when and how it got there.

Haven't found the DPS information online yet; Child's VOICE posted at IS that s(he) has them to C&P.

I had never seen this video before:

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=18631@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

[sharlock]

According to the report, "[The uncle] overheard [the boy] say, 'One day I'm going to kill him.' [The uncle] told Vincent [Romero] what [the boy] said, and Vincent respnded by slapping [the boy]. The date of the incident remained undetermined."
Later in the supplemental report detectives learned, "the two cell phones belonging to Vincent Romero and Timothy Romans contained photographs, which had been accessed by DPS Computer Forensics Unit (CFU) personnel... Vincent's telephone contained a photograph of a young boy, displaying what appeared to be a black eye." However, according to the reports, the identity of the young boy remained unclear.

"Vasey stated she contacted the SCTPD who said Tim Romans had been arrested and was known to be a mid-level drug dealer. He had several people who dealt methamphetamine for him at the street level. One of those people...stated a week prior to the shooting Tim called her saying someone wanted to kill him."
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/no...hT-AEZCsQ.cspx (http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/St-Johns-murder-reports-released-new-info-about/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx)

I have read a lot of peoples posts, saying that if there was any thing off in that house they would have known; in their minds that is the end of the story but, I know that this is a very dangerous belief system to hold and that those that live with abuse are very good at hiding it.
I find a lot of these statements above disturbing to say the least. I do not know what went on inside this home but I can say that when I was young and things were very bad at home I never told anyone and nor did any of my 4 brothers and sisters. I think back and remember that it seemed normal to me and the only time I really ever acknowledged to myself that it wasn't was when I had a friend over and my mum and I worked our behinds off so that she was kept unaware of what was going on around her. I really hope that CR and his StepMum and Dad did enjoy the blessed life that was described by many locals but I hope too that they can also keep their minds open to whatever might come out in the wash.

[sharlock]

I totally agree with you both Loretta and IJM. Not only was the crime scene not cleared properly, the police botched the interrogation and failed miserably with the investigation imo. This fiasco is starting to remind me of the sterling LE efforts in the bungling of little JB's crimescene and that is saying something!

[Its just me]

IF there was bloody clothing in the hallway before the scene was processed, I cannot begin to imagine how it could have been left behind. Photographs of the scene should bear out if they were there unless they were found under a heap after LE finished. I can well imagine that the scene was difficult to process considering the condition of the house, but that just means that LE would have had to spend more time doing the work.

It's hard to believe that the cleaning friends would have thrown the clothing away, but at this point other than determining whose blood may be on the clothing, it may be impossible to determine when and how it got there.

Haven't found the DPS information online yet; Child's VOICE posted at IS that s(he) has them to C&P.

I had never seen this video before:

http://www.abc15.com/mediacenter/local.aspx?videoId=18631@knxv.dayport.com&navCatId=3

Thanks for the video link. I had not seen it either.
The last time I checked at IS Childs Voice (someone) was asking for email addresses to send the DPS information and I believe it was posted that it was 90 pages. I'm kind of at a loss to where DPS came into play with investigating in this capacity. Weren't they the one's call to send crime scene specialist to help do the crime scene the next day. ?? It's strange that this part of the investigation has not been mentioned before...or I should say I have over looked it if anything has been public about it. I have not compared names discussed at IS to the latest court document listing evidence submitted by the prosecution so I guess it's possible it could be in there somewhere. The video referring to "a blotched investigation" when reporting about the bloody clothes also makes me question if this DPS release came from the prosecution.
I can't remember the term Brewer used when talking about what was going on behind closed doors last week...but I think this case has moved beyond CR and has got to be a BIG MESS. I believe somebody is digging for the truth but I'm questioning if it is the prosecution. Since the DPS is reported to be 90 pages at IS and the news media reports what?? 400 pages released...I'm thinking the news media has information from the prosecution and DPS. ??


Just my take on things until I get more information and I would love to be able to read the DPS documents. If anyone posting has a link....Please share..... Please. fep

[Its just me]

I totally agree with you both Loretta and IJM. Not only was the crime scene not cleared properly, the police botched the interrogation and failed miserably with the investigation imo. This fiasco is starting to remind me of the sterling LE efforts in the bungling of little JB's crimescene and that is saying something!

Thanks, I totally agree with your feeling about this "alleged" investigation. The more I learn the more I believe there are many skeletons around the St. Johns area tucked away in closets ...and it wouldn't be a big surprise to learn that some of the bones belong to LE. I truly hope that is not the case and I'm not saying it is....only questioning where I see a question mark. fep

[Its just me]

At the end of the autopsy reports it shows the TOXICOLOGY and what was sent to be tested. The urine results are missing in Romero's report. fep

snip from reports:

Vitreous humor, cavity blood, and urine are sent to the toxicology laboratory for analysis.
TOXICOLOGY (SEE ATTACHED REPORT)
000319



http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/romeroautopsy.pdf

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/romansautopsy.pdf

[lorettalockhorn]

FEP, unless I'm reading wrong, it's Roman's urinalysis that is missing from the tox report.

I wish the autopsy at least ventured a guess as to the chronological order of wounds. Am I'm confused about Romero; I was sure that I had read that he was found face down with his arms beneath him, but the wounds are all from the front. Was he walking upstairs or downstairs? And I guess when LE turned him over, they left him on his back as that's how the lividity was presented to the pathologist.

Gosh, I'm just champing at the bit to read the DPS report, but it's not posted at IS or the myspace site. I'm not a myspacer (Lord, don't I talk about myself enough already?!), so I can't email her there. Does anyone here post at IS to ask her about it? I used to have my lorettalockhorn ID over there too, but it disappeared. From lack of use, maybe.

[Its just me]

FEP, unless I'm reading wrong, it's Roman's urinalysis that is missing from the tox report.

I wish the autopsy at least ventured a guess as to the chronological order of wounds. Am I'm confused about Romero; I was sure that I had read that he was found face down with his arms beneath him, but the wounds are all from the front. Was he walking upstairs or downstairs? And I guess when LE turned him over, they left him on his back as that's how the lividity was presented to the pathologist.

Gosh, I'm just champing at the bit to read the DPS report, but it's not posted at IS or the myspace site. I'm not a myspacer (Lord, don't I talk about myself enough already?!), so I can't email her there. Does anyone here post at IS to ask her about it? I used to have my lorettalockhorn ID over there too, but it disappeared. From lack of use, maybe.

OOOps...You are correct it is Roman's urinalysis that is missing from the tox report. My mistake in typing the wrong name.

Mr. Romero had four gun shot wounds. 2 to the head, one to the arm, and one in the back. I don't remember where all I read about the position of RV's body but I'm pretty sure I read that VR was found face down with his head on the upstairs landing and his feet on the stairs and it seems I read his head was on the stairs with his feet on the stairs below. I think the autopsy saying "Fixed lividity is developed on the posterior dependent portions of the body and very faintly on the anterior surfaces of the body" shows RV was face down long enough for the lividity to develop on the anterior (front) and become fixed to the point it did not all disappear after the body was removed from the scene...I feel sure the body was placed on the back when removed.

LOL If I knew I could get the DPS report I'd register at myspace and IS but I doubt a newbie would get much information. fep
--------------------------
Re: VINCENT ROMERO Page 2 PATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSES:
1. Penetrating gunshot wound of the right top of the head involving the brain. A projectile is recovered.
2. Penetrating gunshot wound of the left side ofthe head involving the brain. A projectile is recovered.
3. Perforating gunshot wound of the left arm with a graze wound ofthe left chest. A projectile is recovered from within the clothing.
4. Penetrating gunshot wound of the right back involving the right lung and the liver. A projectile is recovered.
OPINION:

[Owl]

FEP, unless I'm reading wrong, it's Roman's urinalysis that is missing from the tox report.

I wish the autopsy at least ventured a guess as to the chronological order of wounds. Am I'm confused about Romero; I was sure that I had read that he was found face down with his arms beneath him, but the wounds are all from the front. Was he walking upstairs or downstairs? And I guess when LE turned him over, they left him on his back as that's how the lividity was presented to the pathologist.

Gosh, I'm just champing at the bit to read the DPS report, but it's not posted at IS or the myspace site. I'm not a myspacer (Lord, don't I talk about myself enough already?!), so I can't email her there. Does anyone here post at IS to ask her about it? I used to have my lorettalockhorn ID over there too, but it disappeared. From lack of use, maybe.

His arms were under him. The shot above the left ear felled him. The following wounds were hateful. All shots were from the front.
LE lifted the body to remove it.

[lorettalockhorn]

OOOps...You are correct it is Roman's urinalysis that is missing from the tox report. My mistake in typing the wrong name.

Mr. Romero had four gun shot wounds. 2 to the head, one to the arm, and one in the back. I don't remember where all I read about the position of RV's body but I'm pretty sure I read that VR was found face down with his head on the upstairs landing and his feet on the stairs and it seems I read his head was on the stairs with his feet on the stairs below. I think the autopsy saying "Fixed lividity is developed on the posterior dependent portions of the body and very faintly on the anterior surfaces of the body" shows RV was face down long enough for the lividity to develop on the anterior (front) and become fixed to the point it did not all disappear after the body was removed from the scene...I feel sure the body was placed on the back when removed.

LOL If I knew I could get the DPS report I'd register at myspace and IS but I doubt a newbie would get much information. fep
--------------------------
Re: VINCENT ROMERO Page 2 PATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSES:
1. Penetrating gunshot wound of the right top of the head involving the brain. A projectile is recovered.
2. Penetrating gunshot wound of the left side ofthe head involving the brain. A projectile is recovered.
3. Perforating gunshot wound of the left arm with a graze wound ofthe left chest. A projectile is recovered from within the clothing.
4. Penetrating gunshot wound of the right back involving the right lung and the liver. A projectile is recovered.
OPINION:


Thanks FEP; I misread "the wound has coursed back to front." I have always wondered if the shooter was at the bottom of the stairs, could his/her height not be determined?

Did you notice that Romero was pronounced dead at 5:00pm? Can that be correct?

[Its just me]

Thanks FEP; I misread "the wound has coursed back to front." I have always wondered if the shooter was at the bottom of the stairs, could his/her height not be determined?

Did you notice that Romero was pronounced dead at 5:00pm? Can that be correct?

I noticed the 5:00. According to court documents the 5:00 is wrong. LOL Surely LE has things in line with the 911 call which was a little after 5 and I'm pretty one of the autopsy stated the victim was pronounced dead by LE. IIRC.

I don't know what but I feel sure someone can take the autopsy reports and describe the angle of the wounds in more detail and it could be possible to tell at what level the bullet would have come from. I think if this involved a jury trial all that would be a part of it if it could prove the accused is innocent. I haven't seen any information about CR's defense getting experts for the autopsy reports but don't think the defense has released anything related to the investigation of the case. fep

[lorettalockhorn]

His arms were under him. The shot above the left ear felled him. The following wounds were hateful. All shots were from the front.
LE lifted the body to remove it.

Thanks Owl! Hadn't read anywhere the supposed chronological order of the wounds. Man, all the wounds were all hateful if you ask me. And even more so if through premeditated design or dumb luck CR is taking the fall. As if witnessing the murders and/or finding the bodies isn't bad enough.

How does he recover from any of this?

[tr7fan]

I have read a lot of peoples posts, saying that if there was any thing off in that house they would have known; in their minds that is the end of the story but, I know that this is a very dangerous belief system to hold and that those that live with abuse are very good at hiding it.
I find a lot of these statements above disturbing to say the least. I do not know what went on inside this home but I can say that when I was young and things were very bad at home I never told anyone and nor did any of my 4 brothers and sisters. I think back and remember that it seemed normal to me and the only time I really ever acknowledged to myself that it wasn't was when I had a friend over and my mum and I worked our behinds off so that she was kept unaware of what was going on around her. I really hope that CR and his StepMum and Dad did enjoy the blessed life that was described by many locals but I hope too that they can also keep their minds open to whatever might come out in the wash.

I hope you all realize these few twisted sentences were taken from around 400 pages of evidence,. it seems the media will do anything to get a rating
judge roca would not be letting an alleged double murderer walk the streets
if he thought that there was any problem of the publics safety.
people in st johns have made contingency plans with the schools over what to what to do with the children(the vast majority will be kept at home)
it doesnt seem to matter that america was based on the princiiple of innocent till proven guilty http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

[lorettalockhorn]

I hope you all realize these few twisted sentences were taken from around 400 pages of evidence,. it seems the media will do anything to get a rating
judge roca would not be letting an alleged double murderer walk the streets
if he thought that there was any problem of the publics safety.
people in st johns have made contingency plans with the schools over what to what to do with the children(the vast majority will be kept at home)
it doesnt seem to matter that america was based on the princiiple of innocent till proven guilty http://www.abc15.com/content/news/northernarizona/story/Report-Arizona-boy-accused-in-murders-had-made/fOVJy2sP1kCOthT-AEZCsQ.cspx

Maybe it's late. Maybe I'm old. Maybe I'm dense. Maybe all of the above. But what exactly is the big yuk that I missed??

[William Anthony]

I am looking at the bottom of the page and see three additional pages. I hope that this is the last post and I am not missing other posts.

[Its just me]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/109706.php

http://gfx.tucsoncitizen.com/global/citizen_bw.gif

Police report: St. Johns boy had threatened father


The Arizona Republic
Published: 02.10.2009
Relatives of a 9-year-old St. Johns boy charged in the deaths of his father and another man told investigators the boy had threatened his father before the shootings, according to documents released by Apache County prosecutors.
Police contend the boy used a .22-caliber rifle to shoot his father, 29-year-old Vincent Romero, and 39-year-old Timothy Romans, as the two men returned home from work on Nov. 5. The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder.
The documents, which outline interviews done by state Department of Public Safety officials, provide few details of the talks with neighbors, classmates, relatives and friends of the boy and his family.
Many of the people interviewed said they were surprised to learn the boy, who they described as typical, very respectful, smart and polite, was accused of the crimes. Neighbors and some of the boy's relatives said they never saw him display any violent or odd behavior.
Others said the boy was aggressive at times, arrogant, manipulative and a "bully" but that he wasn't temperamental. At least two relatives told investigators the boy had threatened his father. One of Romero's cousins, Justin Romero, said he "did not put it beyond" the boy that he could have committed the crimes, given his ability to handle a gun.
Stevie Romero, another of Romero's cousins, said that during a family reunion in August, the boy had threatened to either shoot or kill his dad, but that the statement was made out of anger, according to documents.
"How dare you say that?" the cousin quoted Vincent Romero as saying as the boy ran off.
Stevie Romero said he never had seen the boy act that way before.
One of Romero's uncles told investigators he also heard the boy make threatening remarks about his father. Paul Romero said he overheard the boy during a recent hunting trip say, "One day I'm going to kill him."
Paul Romero said his nephew was upset with the boy for an unknown reason and responded by slapping him. The documents don't say when the hunting trip took place.
Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer said Monday that he hasn't had a chance to interview the relatives, but any physical evidence would be more telling than statements from people whose credibility hasn't been determined.
"None of these people came forward before this event and said anything. It was always after the fact," Brewer said. "I think the majority of people have picked their side. They could very easily tend to remember facts or embellish statements that may not be as powerful as they seem."
Prosecutor Brad Carlyon declined to comment on the documents, citing a gag order that largely prohibits the attorneys from discussing the case.
The next hearing in the case is scheduled for Thursday. Apache County Superior Court Judge Michael Roca is expected to consider a motion by prosecutors to drop one of the murder charges against the boy.

[FDInLaw]

There is a new document up:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[FDInLaw]

We do need that DPS report. . . just saw it posted that unidentified prints were found on the bullet case (along with CR's). I wonder if the cadaver's prints were taken?

[FDInLaw]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/keezersupp3.pdf

[FDInLaw]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dps%20binders%202%20red%20(1).pdf

[lorettalockhorn]

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dps%20binders%202%20red%20(1).pdf

Thanks! (Couldn't quite figure out what the big damned secret was!)

[FDInLaw]

Thanks! (Couldn't quite figure out what the big damned secret was!)
Read fast and let me know what it says! 222 pages is a hard read for a distracted chick such as myself! :o

[lorettalockhorn]

Read fast and let me know what it says! 222 pages is a hard read for a distracted chick such as myself! :o

HAHAHA I read 32 pages and kept getting the notice to download a new Adobe Reader. Thought it would NEVER finish! This could take me a couple of days.

[lorettalockhorn]

I've slogged through the report which would have taken forever if more of it had been legible. There are reports of Tim's drug arrest (quite a bit of cash found in his vehicle), some motor vehicle accidents (one of which he rushes to claim responsiblity for and offers to pay for quick fast and in a hurry, which I found strange). There is also a report of an assault to protect the honor of his niece in law(?).

The middle section, which is very difficult to read, is the neighborhood canvas.
One thing that caught my eye was that someone reported that Nicole had tried to commit suicide three months prior.

The final pages are reports of evidence collected, including GSR and several DNA swabs, weapons and ammunition, and chain of evidence records.

I don't see any information about Amos Thinn(?), the man who had reportedly recently threatened to kill Romero.

I'm hoping that y'all can learn more than I did!

[Its just me]

We do need that DPS report. . . just saw it posted that unidentified prints were found on the bullet case (along with CR's). I wonder if the cadaver's prints were taken?


A big Thank You for the link to the DPS report. I've started reading...there is a lot of information and there are hand written stuff I'm unable to make out....I'll try my reading glasses. LOL

Their prints should have been taken but I don't remember reading they were. In Ga. I believe it has to be requested for it to get done. The officer who helped remove the bodies from the scene stated he bagged the victims hands...IMHOO this was done in order to preserve gun shot residue but so far I haven't seen any request or results on a test. I believe this test has to be requested also. I don't remember reading in the autopsy reports that any thing was done outside of the autopsy but I could have missed it.

A report does say that CR's finger prints were found on the box of bullets and there were other prints. I remember one was identified as the ring finger and better prints from CR were requested and the report told them how to get better prints. I don't believe any finger prints or blood was found on the gun. Cellular (spelling) was found on the shell casing but I'm not sure what that means. Size 4 brown tennis shoes tested negative for blood. There are more test results but I can't remember exactly what the results were. All this is in one lab report. IIRC.

There are incident reports and one for Roman's states a 22 hand gun was removed from behind the passenger's seat. I believe this was the drug charge. Don't remember the date.

I'm pretty sure a request was made by someone on the local level for DPS to assist with the investigation after this DPS went to the house and did some blood testing. Several things tested negative for blood but the toilet tested positive and the report stated no samples had been taken. IMHOO the positive only means there had been blood at some point in the past.

One report said a guy named Amos was considered a suspect Nov. 5th....when he was questioned he said he had a 22 rifle and he was in the area very close to the time of the murders. It will take me several reading to grasp all that was said but I believe this Amos worked at night and being in the area was not a common thing...but I could be wrong.
LOL Actually I can be wrong on all of the above because it's memory stuff that stood out doing a first time quick read.

fep

[Its just me]

I've slogged through the report which would have taken forever if more of it had been legible. There are reports of Tim's drug arrest (quite a bit of cash found in his vehicle), some motor vehicle accidents (one of which he rushes to claim responsiblity for and offers to pay for quick fast and in a hurry, which I found strange). There is also a report of an assault to protect the honor of his niece in law(?).

The middle section, which is very difficult to read, is the neighborhood canvas.
One thing that caught my eye was that someone reported that Nicole had tried to commit suicide three months prior.

The final pages are reports of evidence collected, including GSR and several DNA swabs, weapons and ammunition, and chain of evidence records.

I don't see any information about Amos Thinn(?), the man who had reportedly recently threatened to kill Romero.

I'm hoping that y'all can learn more than I did!

There was an Amos questioned...I brought it out in my last post. I'll see if I can find where the report is located. fep

[FDInLaw]

Spent some time speed reading my way through the 222 pages last night. There are so many illegible pages! Errrrrrr. Oh, well. There are things that this document does establish. For one, Tim was in fact a shady character, and one has to wonder if he had any enemies. His lifestyle in and of itself is a good argument for reasonable doubt IMO.

Going to give the doc a second look here after bit. I've been getting grief via PMs about posting it here. If there is a legitimate reason it should not be posted on a public board, someone please let me know and I will ask DW to remove the link.

[lorettalockhorn]

There was an Amos questioned...I brought it out in my last post. I'll see if I can find where the report is located. fep

Thanks FEP. Out of all the people that these two couldn't get along with, I believe his threat was one of, if not the most recent. It's possible that I just haven't found it. Point me the way woman!

[lorettalockhorn]

Spent some time speed reading my way through the 222 pages last night. There are so many illegible pages! Errrrrrr. Oh, well. There are things that this document does establish. For one, Tim was in fact a shady character, and one has to wonder if he had any enemies. His lifestyle in and of itself is a good argument for reasonable doubt IMO.

Going to give the doc a second look here after bit. I've been getting grief via PMs about posting it here. If there is a legitimate reason it should not be posted on a public board, someone please let me know and I will ask DW to remove the link.

I'll give it another look too; it's largely illegible and I DID have on my glasses, and even used my magnifying glass.

What's the deal with posting the report? It's public information. Why should it be removed? Aren't we required to post links to verify discussion?

MEH

[FDInLaw]

Another document is up:

http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/docs/default.aspx

[FDInLaw]

Competency hearing to take place February 27th (9:00am).

[Its just me]

Spent some time speed reading my way through the 222 pages last night. There are so many illegible pages! Errrrrrr. Oh, well. There are things that this document does establish. For one, Tim was in fact a shady character, and one has to wonder if he had any enemies. His lifestyle in and of itself is a good argument for reasonable doubt IMO.

Going to give the doc a second look here after bit. I've been getting grief via PMs about posting it here. If there is a legitimate reason it should not be posted on a public board, someone please let me know and I will ask DW to remove the link.

LOL Did the one's sending PM's read it. :confused: If so they should not say anything. I see nothing wrong with providing a link.... I much prefer facts over opinions any day fep

[Its just me]

Not sure if this link is posted.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/dpslab.pdf

[Its just me]

More information: The pictures CR drew during the interview is on page 22 of (1-24) IIRC. The picture appears to be of his dad. Granted it's a child's drawing but notice the line coming off of the dad's right hand. If it's nothing I believe it is the only line actually out of place. So sad....notice the sad face. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/possiblewitnessnotesBO.pdf


This is the GSR testing.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/sanantioniolabrpt.pdf

[Its just me]

Thanks FEP. Out of all the people that these two couldn't get along with, I believe his threat was one of, if not the most recent. It's possible that I just haven't found it. Point me the way woman!

I've finally found it: Thanks to my computer's history. There are several pages and IIRC Amos starts on page 9. Read it... Amos gets off work at 6 AM and said when he got home from work someone called him at told him CR was waiting for his dad Tim tried to get away and was shot in the back. This is odd because CR had not been interviewed... if Amos went straight home. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womacksupp3.pdf

[FDInLaw]

Fep, your last link makes me wonder what the stats are for race motivated crime in that area? Hum.

At least we know that LE was out getting interviews (see, OWL, I can say something positive. ;) )


You ROCK Fep!

[lorettalockhorn]

More information: The pictures CR drew during the interview is on page 22 of (1-24) IIRC. The picture appears to be of his dad. Granted it's a child's drawing but notice the line coming off of the dad's right hand. If it's nothing I believe it is the only line actually out of place. So sad....notice the sad face. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/possiblewitnessnotesBO.pdf


This is the GSR testing.

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/sanantioniolabrpt.pdf

Interesting to me that CR doesn't draw VR's extremities. When I was in school and in training and worked as a caseworker, that was a red flag to investigators; there was a school of thought that omitting limbs, hands, or feet is an emotional indicator of sexual abuse and incest victims. And Neckels had years of experience interviewing children IIRC from what she told Brewer, so I'm not going to chalk this up to anxiety on CR's part.

[lorettalockhorn]

I've finally found it: Thanks to my computer's history. There are several pages and IIRC Amos starts on page 9. Read it... Amos gets off work at 6 AM and said when he got home from work someone called him at told him CR was waiting for his dad Tim tried to get away and was shot in the back. This is odd because CR had not been interviewed... if Amos went straight home. fep

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoublehomicide.com/applications/DocumentLibraryManager/upload/womacksupp3.pdf

Thanks so much! When I catch up on my chores (I'm almost there!), I'll read.

[lorettalockhorn]

Fep, your last link makes me wonder what the stats are for race motivated crime in that area? Hum.

At least we know that LE was out getting interviews (see, OWL, I can say something positive. ;) )


You ROCK Fep!

Seems like there were reports of gang(s) in the area (not sure how large an area) and some comments about individuals in the Apache tribe and the Navajo tribe not getting along based simply on tribal affiliation.