Photos of the body at the crime scene

[susie31023]

Ok guys, I went searching and although I don't agree with Rotten.com somehow they have the actual pictures of Betty as she was found on 1/15/4. They are very graphic so please don't click on the link if you are squeamish. You can enlarge the pics and see just how badly she was tortured. It almost looks like someone had put some kind of restraint around her head in the first photo. The link below should take you to the 6 photos. She also had a chunk cut out of her left leg...so very very sad to see just what the killer did to her.

http://poetry.rotten.com/black-dahlia/ :flamemad:

[grneyes]

How horrific. :( That was one vicious SOB. I wonder if this was an isolated case or if there were others that weren't connected to him?

[SaraSidle]

Does anyone know what the white objects are next to Beth's head and left arm?

[susie31023]

Does anyone know what the white objects are next to Beth's head and left arm?

Sara I read on another board that they were concrete sacks. Not sure if they were a part of the crime scene or just trash.

grneyes, I agree whoever did this was a very sadistic Ba$*%$. I really don't like that site but it does give us the actual way she looked so that maybe we can at least determine what injuries she had. Haven't been able to find the autopsy report. I don't think the LE released that. I just feel so sad that she died in this horrible way.~Susie

[SaraSidle]

Joseph or Lydecker do you have any idea if those concrete bags are related to Beth's death?

[Drumbum]

Some of the most disturbing crime scene photos I've ever seen. Perhaps, only second to Mary Jane Kelly. From the looks of Liz, I think this was personal, a black hatred spurred this attack.

[susie31023]

Some of the most disturbing crime scene photos I've ever seen. Perhaps, only second to Mary Jane Kelly. From the looks of Liz, I think this was personal, a black hatred spurred this attack.

DB, I thought the same thing. You can see what torture she went through and it was very personal. JMO

[SaraSidle]

I think I'm right that her body was dragged on the bags to the dump site or her body was in the bags and dragged to the dump site. Not sure if they were concrete though. Have to go and look that up.
I think they were used so the perp wouldn't get a mess in his car. Fastidious little creature that he was.

I wonder where he got the bags??? HMMMMM:shrug:

[Drumbum]

Look at the multiple stab wounds to her vaginal area. Where have we seen this before Joseph?

This type of violence raises two questions in my mind. Is it possible that the perp and vic were intimate? or Was the perp impotent or suffered from some other sexual dysfunction?

[susie31023]

Brought them with him in the car. I think.

But where did the cement go? He would have had to empty them first. I just don't see why he would use cement...unless he used it to get rid of the weapons he had tortured her with. JMO

[Drumbum]

This case is frustrating like JtR.

[Seashell]

Cement bags?
what kind of cement work was goin on in Hollywood during those times? did the bags have a company name on them?
I found the images very disturbing and i cant imagine what she must have gone through its too awfull to even imagine this...
poor soul :(

[SaraSidle]

Cement bags?
what kind of cement work was goin on in Hollywood during those times? did the bags have a company name on them?
I found the images very disturbing and i cant imagine what she must have gone through its too awfull to even imagine this...
poor soul :(

Thank you Seashell. I think that is where Susie and I were going. Major piece of evidence and we do not know where it came from. I actually the the murders are alike also in some ways as JTR. only this one used grass in the vagina. and while I am sure dr's have rage attacks I do not know who did this one.......

[susie31023]

Cement bags?
what kind of cement work was goin on in Hollywood during those times? did the bags have a company name on them?
I found the images very disturbing and i cant imagine what she must have gone through its too awfull to even imagine this...
poor soul :(

The pictures are horrific Seashell. When I first saw them I wasn't sure of whether I should post the link but I decided that to really put the injuries in perspective some could look at them for themselves. It is just so sad that one human being could do this to another..As for the sacks I couldn't find whether they were involved or not. Not sure why he would have looked for sacks to use, but who knows. We know so little facts in this case...JMO

[Jules100]

I think this is the most horrific crime scene pics that i have ever seen - i can't get how the perp was able to do this without being seen- i'll be honest and admit that i have not read much about this case so would be happy to hear from you all who know more

[SaraSidle]

I think this is the most horrific crime scene pics that i have ever seen - i can't get how the perp was able to do this without being seen- i'll be honest and admit that i have not read much about this case so would be happy to hear from you all who know more

There is a lot of information on the internet. blackdahlia.com is good. and a lot of books. very interesting. IMO

[susie31023]

There's got to be a doctor somewhere.

JB, please don't start your mantra. I am sick and holding my arms out in front of me would exhaust me at the moment, LOL:punch::seeya:

[SaraSidle]

JB, please don't start your mantra. I am sick and holding my arms out in front of me would exhaust me at the moment, LOL:punch::seeya:

besides it is not true there is not always a doctor. Open your mind. think outside the box.........lol

[susie31023]

besides it is not true there is not always a doctor. Open your mind. think outside the box.........lol

Besides wearing this dang dress, I fear it will fall down. And then what will I do, LOL. You must think of these things JB..I am trying to be a loyal member of your clan especially since I was the first;), but you have to think about my safety too dear.....:punch:

[susie31023]

Sara, I'll think all around the box to make you happy but it doesn't change the fact that: THERE HAS TO BE A DOCTOR SOMEWHERE.

No-one except a skilled doctor or surgeon could have dissected her like that.
With that precision. And no, the crime scene photos aren't pretty but that's how she was left.
Lots of you have looked at the photos. Why do you think she was posed like that? And she was posed. What's the message?

I agree JB the body was posed. Now I'm trying to figure out what the cut across her mouth meant. Was it just because he wanted to or is there some deeper meaning? I'm thinking it has a deeper meaning..as for the posing, he seemed to be laying her out in a grotesque way. Something like a signal to what could happen to someone who didn't listen to him., or maybe if you sleep with just anyone then this could happen to you..Sorry this sounds rambling but I just can't put what I want to say into words, LOL.

My thoughts are that the one who cut her in half was a doctor, because it was so precise. I find it hard to believe that someone with no skill and knowledge could have done this part..now was it the same guy? I have no idea..That missing week holds the key in my opinion. Also one thing I wanted to point out is why did he take time to wash her and drain all the blood? If he were just going to pose her he really didn't have to do all of that. I think that's another key.

In my opinion this was someone who cared for her in some way. I think the evidence points to that. For no one to have ever come forward with any credible evidence is unbelieveable. Surely this person[unless he died soon afterward] would have found the need to clear his conscious once and for all....

[SaraSidle]

I agree JB the body was posed. Now I'm trying to figure out what the cut across her mouth meant. Was it just because he wanted to or is there some deeper meaning? I'm thinking it has a deeper meaning..as for the posing, he seemed to be laying her out in a grotesque way. Something like a signal to what could happen to someone who didn't listen to him., or maybe if you sleep with just anyone then this could happen to you..Sorry this sounds rambling but I just can't put what I want to say into words, LOL.

My thoughts are that the one who cut her in half was a doctor, because it was so precise. I find it hard to believe that someone with no skill and knowledge could have done this part..now was it the same guy? I have no idea..That missing week holds the key in my opinion. Also one thing I wanted to point out is why did he take time to wash her and drain all the blood? If he were just going to pose her he really didn't have to do all of that. I think that's another key.

In my opinion this was someone who cared for her in some way. I think the evidence points to that. For no one to have ever come forward with any credible evidence is unbelieveable. Surely this person[unless he died soon afterward] would have found the need to clear his conscious once and for all....

the draining of the blood is something a coroner or FH does. The mouth means she talks to much or worse. What is the cut in half mean?

[susie31023]

the draining of the blood is something a coroner or FH does. The mouth means she talks to much or worse. What is the cut in half mean?
Not sure Sara unless he was seperating the part the partcared about/loved from the part he hated...just a thought that crossed my mind

[grneyes]

Maybe the cutting her in half was done for transporting her. Possible he used bags or similar to carry her in and half a body would be a lot easier to handle I would think. Especially if it was a small sized man or woman that did it.

[susie31023]

Hi. There has been discussion that she was cut in half to make transportation easier. It's as good a theory as any. There has to be a message in the posing of her remains. She could have been dumped or buried anywhere never to be found. She was meant to be found, in a public place, where anyone could see what had become of her.

JB, I agree she was posed for a reason. I also think whoever cut her in half meant to do it. It doesn't make sense that he would have just cut her in half to transport her. He needed her to be cut in order to pose her. I think it was a message but what that message was I have no idea. I also think he meant to humiliate her memory by doing what he did to her...Just my opinion though...Wish we knew a little more..JMO

[susie31023]

Wish I knew lots more Susie. You know, for a case as infamous as this, you'd think there'd be lots of reputable websites crammed with info about the case. There really aren't that many websites and there are only a few that I'd rate as useful.

I agree JB. There aren't very many credible websites on the murder. I have looked and looked but most try to make the evidence fit instead of just letting it go where it needs to. I still believe her posed body was meant to send a message to someone just not sure who. I realize we will probably never know and that is what's so sad in this case. She died a horrific death and 61 yrs. later we are no closer to finding the truth than they were 61 yrs. ago..JMO

[susie31023]

Yeah Susie. It's the same with Jack the R. Authors take the facts they want to support their suspect and ignore the rest of the facts which don't fit in. Just because there is something that doesn't play your way, if you're reputable and sincerely interested in forwarding knowledge about the case, then you present it also.

Apprently that's how it was/is done.Makes no sense to me either JB...

[susie31023]

It's called making a buck Susie. Big time. 'I have a new theory rah rah rah' and off they go. Doesn't matter that the links they have are tenuous. Or the conclusions they draw are fatuous.

Sigh. I want to get my hands on the full autopsy report, coroner's report, police interviews and records of any and all physical evidence to do the case.

I would too JB, but I don't think it has been released yet. Seems as if they would release it after all these years....

[Jules100]

There is a lot of information on the internet. blackdahlia.com is good. and a lot of books. very interesting. IMO

Thanks for that , i will go and take a look

[aldred]

I thought she was dumped further away from the street than what is evident in those photos. The position of her arms could be the result of the way she was bound up ante mortem, and rigor doing the rest.

The Man Ray connection that Hodel makes seem less likely as the symmetry is quite off between the body halves. A quick dump, it seems to me. Placement possibly a further defilement.

A booze hound sadist who went too far.

[aldred]

I didn't mean to imply that she was put at the scene in any attempt to "hide" her body. I just don't know anything about the area in question save from the crime scene pictures. She had to have been carried from a parked vehicle. I just have a hard time seeing that whoever did that stayed around for any extended period of time to do more than just put the pieces on the ground, and get the heck out of there.

It's an open area and thus easy to control in terms of possible onlookers. Was there any street lights? Do they have any idea of what AM it was?

The feces in her stomach. Is it known whether she was force fed or if they had been pressed up from the bowel?

[susie31023]

Hi. Seems to me if you're going to dump a body and you didn't want it found then you wouldn't leave it almost on top of a sidewalk in a residential area.
Sure, there were vacant lots around but the place had traffic. A paper boy saw a black sedan parked there earlier (and I think that's when the body was dumped). Beth was actually found by a woman pushing her child in a stroller.
So it's not as if no-one ever went there. Arms above the head I think you're right, probably where her hands where tied.

But dumped, just dumped, I just can't agree. She's face up "ready' for her public (excuse the analogy). The woman who 1st found her thought Beth was a mannequin. Until she got closer.

JB, I agree that whoever did this took the time to pose her the way he wanted her. The body doesn't look "dumped" it's just too much to think that it would fall in that position. The arms I'm really not sure of, could be from where she was tied. Also we have to remember that this was in 1947 and there would not have been as much traffic in the area as there is today, thereby giving the killer less urgency to clear the area. Just an opinion~Susie

[aldred]

Does anyone know the exact address of the site where her body was found. I want to find a map of the place. Steve Hodel mentions a street named Degnan. The district is Crenshaw, I think. The area, Leimert Park...

I looked at some other pictures at the bethshort website. Just wondering if there was any wildlife predators roaming that part of L.A. that could have attempted to drag the torso away from its original placement.

[SaraSidle]

Thirty-ninth St and Norton Avenue in Leimert Park. West of downtown LA.

Hope this helps.

I knew you would know it off the top of your head. thank you

[aldred]

...

Leimert Park was developed by Walther H. "Tim" Leimert in 1928. Wikipedia mentions that South Norton Avenue 3800 was where BD was found. It was initially an all white community for low and middle class people. Today it has a 91.7% afro american population.

Degnan Blv. and S. Norton is separated by two streets. I tried locating a map from the 1940ies but that was harder.

[Karin]

Not sure on the net where you could find a map for west LA c1940's but maybe if someone reads this they can help. Don't rely too much on Wikipedia for hard and fast info. Good for general background.


good day jb, true about wiki, not considered to be a reliable source..can't use it in any of my grad classes...

[BJ_BOBBI_JO]

My goodness that is awful. How could anyone do that?

I dont know anything about that poor womans story but I can only hope she died fast. I feel bad for her family it must be so painful for them to know their dead loved ones picture of her torn and naked body is out there in cyber space for everyone to look at. I think that is so wrong and disrespectful of the police or whomever it was that allowed those photos to be seen like that. I would be so angry if that was my loved ones body being showen like that. She had to have been someones daughter and maybe a sister, cousin, aunt, girl friend, wife, friend, or student. She was a human being with emotions and feelins Im sure. Just think how humilated she would be.

Now I want to read the book if there is one about her ( I will read threw this thread better later). Since I dont know about her story I have no idea if the person who done this was caught or not. But IMO there is no punishment strong enough for a sicko who would do that to someone. It makes a drive by fast shot in the head killing seem mild and tame compared to what that poor girl must have went threw. Lord have mercy. It is no wonder I watch my kids like a hawk and tell them to trust no one.

I realize none of us are perfect and we all have our hang ups but why would anyone allow themselves to take their hangs to that extreme by doing that to someone? Sick sick sick and evil.

[susie31023]

Welcome aboard BJ_Bobbie_Jo, yes she must have gone through a living nightmare. As for the pictures they are in almost if not all the books written about her. No one was ever caught for her murder..As for books there have been numerous ones written over the years. Some make sense some don't. I think JB put a list of them somewhere on here...Again welcome and if I can do anything to help you just ask~Susie

[SaraSidle]

Welcome aboard BJ_Bobbie_Jo, yes she must have gone through a living nightmare. As for the pictures they are in almost if not all the books written about her. No one was ever caught for her murder..As for books there have been numerous ones written over the years. Some make sense some don't. I think JB put a list of them somewhere on here...Again welcome and if I can do anything to help you just ask~Susie

Me too BJ. and Susie is correct Joseph Bell does have a list on this thread. IMO

[LetsBeConcerned]

Does anyone know the exact address of the site where her body was found. I want to find a map of the place. Steve Hodel mentions a street named Degnan. The district is Crenshaw, I think. The area, Leimert Park...

I looked at some other pictures at the bethshort website. Just wondering if there was any wildlife predators roaming that part of L.A. that could have attempted to drag the torso away from its original placement.

That is possible…Probably not today, but back then it was much less developed than it is now. There are sightings of Mountain lions & bears (in the county) still to this today. Oh My~!!

Here is an article about a bear sighting yesterday. Even though San Dimas is some miles away, from Leimert Park they still do exist in the county as well as other wild life.

http://www.sgvtribune.com/news/ci_10494409

The Houses seen in Pic. #4 were built in late 1970’s. Thank goodness I didn’t know back then that bears were roaming the same streets that I was~!! :eek:

[aldred]

Ahh, what a cute little bear!!! I sure hope the guns was loaded with sedatives rather than lethal ammo!!!


Just a thought on the remains of Elizabeth Short; I wonder what they would find was it possible to examine them again today with the advanced knowledge, technology and forensic know how?

[SaraSidle]

Ahh, what a cute little bear!!! I sure hope the guns was loaded with sedatives rather than lethal ammo!!!


Just a thought on the remains of Elizabeth Short; I wonder what they would find was it possible to examine them again today with the advanced knowledge, technology and forensic know how?

They usually give the bear a tranq and take it to the wild or a rescue mission. aldred they did not do much DNA back then so even if there was some evidence left to work with I am not sure what we could do with it. I could be wrong. Maybe someone else knows more and will post it. IMO

[aldred]

It wasn't DNA I was thinking about but more along the lines of a more careful examination of cut marks and other damage to the bones. To maybe determine the type of tools that was used. I assume that some/all of the cartilage have withered away. The type of mutilations that was visited upon Elizabeth Short and the complete bisection of her body is to my knowledge still to this day and age a rarity. I've had a look at the murder of Karina Holmer in Boston, Massachussets in june 1996; I remember when it hit the news in Sweden. Although her body was bisected the reason is thought to be purely logistical.

The difference from 1947 is the vast body of experience with these types of crimes that exist today; did the perpetrator hesitate in their mutilation of Elizabeth Short? Is it possible to identify the exact type of tools simply from the marks it made in the bone? Could an X-ray examination of the bones shed any new light on things?

The means for performing digital post mortems allow for experts everywhere to look at it from their pow. When it comes to DNA; maybe they could find traces of the foreign materials that they found and even if they can't determine what it was; then maybe they could discount what it can't be.

[SaraSidle]

Hi. To the best of my knowledge her remains were buried so it may be possible that DNA and other tests could be run although I'm not sure, given that she was drained of blood and her body thoroughly washed that there would be much that would be useful. But, it would be always be worth a try if anyone in LAPD or the relevant authorities were interested.

Any bear involved would have to be smarter than the average bear. Hollywood is a strange place but not that strange. However, it was an interesting thought.

Better than the average Bear Joseph. Do you think any of the poi had dna taken that we could get or would they all have to be exhumed? are you having fun?

[SaraSidle]

It wasn't DNA I was thinking about but more along the lines of a more careful examination of cut marks and other damage to the bones. To maybe determine the type of tools that was used. I assume that some/all of the cartilage have withered away. The type of mutilations that was visited upon Elizabeth Short and the complete bisection of her body is to my knowledge still to this day and age a rarity. I've had a look at the murder of Karina Holmer in Boston, Massachussets in june 1996; I remember when it hit the news in Sweden. Although her body was bisected the reason is thought to be purely logistical.

The difference from 1947 is the vast body of experience with these types of crimes that exist today; did the perpetrator hesitate in their mutilation of Elizabeth Short? Is it possible to identify the exact type of tools simply from the marks it made in the bone? Could an X-ray examination of the bones shed any new light on things?

The means for performing digital post mortems allow for experts everywhere to look at it from their pow. When it comes to DNA; maybe they could find traces of the foreign materials that they found and even if they can't determine what it was; then maybe they could discount what it can't be.

You make it sound interesting and possible Aldred! IMO

[SaraSidle]

Don't see why Aldred's suggestions couldn't be possible. Only I don't know if the state of her remains would allow for evidence like that to be found. Maybe. The body may have decomposed too much for it to be examined like that, although the skeletal remains should have cut marks on them somewhere.

Miss you come back soon

[old_soul]

I had watched a special on A&E regarding cold cases, and they went on a quest to find more about The Black Dahlia Murder. The area where she was 'placed' was about 2 blocks from a housing development, a quiet, but not totally desolate area. At the time of the murder, you could see straight down to the body site, but at dusk I don't believe you could really see what was going on. They showed it then and the way it looked at the time of this newest investigation. I'm going to brush up on what I can remember from this great show, but it was about a block and a half from a home that was owned by the sister (and her DOCTOR husband) of a friend of Elizabeth's. They also knew Elizabeth. Of course, no definitive answers, but they found quite a few coincidental aspects connected to this family.

I'm going to try to find this show or at least the detectives. No one else has seen it?

[SaraSidle]

I had watched a special on A&E regarding cold cases, and they went on a quest to find more about The Black Dahlia Murder. The area where she was 'placed' was about 2 blocks from a housing development, a quiet, but not totally desolate area. At the time of the murder, you could see straight down to the body site, but at dusk I don't believe you could really see what was going on. They showed it then and the way it looked at the time of this newest investigation. I'm going to brush up on what I can remember from this great show, but it was about a block and a half from a home that was owned by the sister (and her DOCTOR husband) of a friend of Elizabeth's. They also knew Elizabeth. Of course, no definitive answers, but they found quite a few coincidental aspects connected to this family.

I'm going to try to find this show or at least the detectives. No one else has seen it?



wow I have not and it sounds like good info. thank you

[LetsBeConcerned]

I had watched a special on A&E regarding cold cases, and they went on a quest to find more about The Black Dahlia Murder. The area where she was 'placed' was about 2 blocks from a housing development, a quiet, but not totally desolate area. At the time of the murder, you could see straight down to the body site, but at dusk I don't believe you could really see what was going on. They showed it then and the way it looked at the time of this newest investigation. I'm going to brush up on what I can remember from this great show, but it was about a block and a half from a home that was owned by the sister (and her DOCTOR husband) of a friend of Elizabeth's. They also knew Elizabeth. Of course, no definitive answers, but they found quite a few coincidental aspects connected to this family.

I'm going to try to find this show or at least the detectives. No one else has seen it?



Neither have I. More info would be great.


Here is a link to the episode… I didn’t see it either, but I’m hoping to see the rerun of the show. If anyone knows of a second airing, please let us all know~!!


115 - The Black Dahlia

Bill Kurtis examines one of the most infamous cold cases in Los Angeles history -- the 1947 murder of actress Elizabeth Short, who was found nude and cut in half in an empty lot. Though charges have never been filed in the case, theories abound, and Kurtis investigates some of the most prominent ones. He talks to a retired LAPD detective whose 3 year investigation led to the stunning conclusion that his own father committed the murder. Kurtis also probes the theory that the killer was a surgeon named Walter Bayley. Kurtis finally explores the possibility that there may have been a police cover-up in the case to protect the real killer.



http://www.aetv.com/cold_case_files/ccf_episode_guide.jsp?episode=184642

:seeya: :seeya: :seeya:

[susie31023]

Thank you for the link, as I had never heard of or seen it before. I too hope it will be rerun soon~Suz

[SaraSidle]

On the original Dahlia thread we discussed Walter Bayley in some detail. I went to reread the posts and I find the thread has gone. Must have been cold cased! Damn. There's goes all the reasearch I put into it.

Bayley, trying to sort through my memory here, was physcially incapacitated at the time of the murder I think. Sara, help me out here. When I get time, I'll go searching again.

I do not remember Bayley Joseph. i thought that was sickert who was incapacitated

[SaraSidle]

On the original Dahlia thread we discussed Walter Bayley in some detail. I went to reread the posts and I find the thread has gone. Must have been cold cased! Damn. There's goes all the reasearch I put into it.

Bayley, trying to sort through my memory here, was physcially incapacitated at the time of the murder I think. Sara, help me out here. When I get time, I'll go searching again.

maybe we are getting to old to remember this stuff which makes it being deleted that more awful

[SaraSidle]

Sara, Sickert is on the JTR thread. Dr Walter Bayley. I have to go to work now but I'll have a looksee when I get home.

I know JB. I am still thinking Manley What are you thinking now? I am sorry you have to go off. I really want to hear about your vacation. IMO

[LetsBeConcerned]

maybe we are getting to old to remember this stuff which makes it being deleted that more awful


Is this the thread you were looking for~??

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=9133047#post9133047

[old_soul]

From those pics, obviously a very personal motive, right? Now I'm thinking, she disappeared (poof) one night while out, right? She had makeup on, nice clothes.... Could it be she ran into her killer, went to his place to hang out and .........whatever.

In the old days, makeup was made with ingredients that contained parafins (sic?) and other ingredients like waxes. I'm talking about mascara at least.
You can see from the pics, not a trace of that. Unless he bothered to take off every trace of that mascara, which meant a product like albolene or mineral oil, it wasn't easy to get off. Would he bother? I mean, we know he washed her afterwards, but maybe she stayed over. Took her own makeup off in the nighttime or morning?

Maybe she mocked the size of his penis or something like that ~ here he's professing love and she laughs at him (mouth slashed) "let's get married, we'll have children.." (hysterectomy) "I want more than something like you" humiliation of the body placement etc.) Him saying: "I'll show you, *****". (humiliation, throwing body so anyone can see and find the c**kteaser)

I don't know anything about her personality..........Do you guys know anything about that ?

[old_soul]

what if she did tell 'him', (the dear Dr.?), that she Was pregnant...double whammy.

[SaraSidle]

what if she did tell 'him', (the dear Dr.?), that she Was pregnant...double whammy.

these are wonderful questions OS. as far as her personality she was a wannabe actress/model who tried to spend time with the best people and tried to get men to pay her bills. not quite sure she was a prostiture just more like a user..............IMO sara

[susie31023]

these are wonderful questions OS. as far as her personality she was a wannabe actress/model who tried to spend time with the best people and tried to get men to pay her bills. not quite sure she was a prostiture just more like a user..............IMO sara

I also think she was a hanger on and a user Sara. Unfotunately I think she used the wrong man and he became enraged. Now I do agree with JB about the Dr. simply because I don't think anyone else could have cut her like she was cut without him being a Doc. The actual toture I believe was by a man who she so enrage he lost it and wanted to make her suffer as much as possible~Suz

[SaraSidle]

I also think she was a hanger on and a user Sara. Unfotunately I think she used the wrong man and he became enraged. Now I do agree with JB about the Dr. simply because I don't think anyone else could have cut her like she was cut without him being a Doc. The actual toture I believe was by a man who she so enrage he lost it and wanted to make her suffer as much as possible~Suz

I am still confused by that susie. A torturer and a dr work on the same body. of course it probably took 2 people to post the body that way. Maybe it was an angry mobster who hired a doc and they both did the deed.

IMO

[susie31023]

I am still confused by that susie. A torturer and a dr work on the same body. of course it probably took 2 people to post the body that way. Maybe it was an angry mobster who hired a doc and they both did the deed.

IMO

Or Sara it could have simply been a dr. That she was using and somehow managed to make him angry enough he did it all. But in ant case I feel that the one who cut her up had medical experience becase of how precise he was...

[susie31023]

OK. It comes down to this IMO. One man killed her and dissected her. That man HAD to be a doctor. That was done by a surgeon, someone who knew what he was doing.

Two or more men killed her. She was dissected by a surgeon. Someone who knew what he was doing.

There has to be a doctor somewhere.


I agree JB, Those are the two scenarios it boils down to. Now I'm thinking it could have been someone completely off the radar. As secretive as Beth was it wouldn't be unheard of for there to be someone n the shadows that we nor anyone else has everheard of, and that man could well be a Dr. And the killer...JMO~Suz

[SaraSidle]

I agree JB, Those are the two scenarios it boils down to. Now I'm thinking it could have been someone completely off the radar. As secretive as Beth was it wouldn't be unheard of for there to be someone n the shadows that we nor anyone else has everheard of, and that man could well be a Dr. And the killer...JMO~Suz

Mr Joseph Bell do we have suspects or is this perp unknown.......??? IMO

[SaraSidle]

Mr Joseph Bell I await your response patiently. I am glad you are on it. sara

[SaraSidle]

Aaaah Miss Sara I just cannot stay away. I've invested too much of me in this to let go. I've had a quick look at Dr Audrain and h'm. Dunno. As with all the docs mentioned with his case, sounds great at 1st but something always falls through. And as you and I know, there's got to be a doctor somewhere.

You were so excited about him. where did you read up on it?

[SaraSidle]

Black Dahlia files. Like I said only a quick look so far. But I don't think so. Mostly because he's a Donald Wolfe choice and Mr Wolfe is pretty suss on his 'research'.

Well I still want to check him out cause you were pertty into him.. Maybe I can do it without infuence.............or maybe you and I should fly out to Los Angeles?

[Grave Chaser]

An earlier poster mentioned that BS may have been a prostitute, or rather more of a 'user' of men; the equivalent of an escort today, but not having sex with them but rather looking for love. Based on the things I have read about BS, she was incapable of having sexual intercourse because her vaginal opening/canal was not fully developed and therefore too shallow to allow penetration, but I've read that she was anally penetrated before/after her murder, though no sperm was found.

As for suspects, here's a couple names for you guys and gals to research for yourself:

George Knowlton ---- his daughter wrote a book naming him as BS's killer based on "recovered memories". I've read it. Wasn't to convincing IMO.

Arnold Smith AKA Jack Anderson Wilson AKA Grover Loving Jr ---- Informed police that he knew the killer, yet couldn't produce him. Smith also knew intimate details of the crime.

[Grave Chaser]

Hi Gravedigger. Liking the nic. It suits the thread.:D

Have been down both paths you suggest. Agree with you on the first. Waste of time. Anderson/Smith was fingered by Gilmore in "Severed" as the lone killer. I'll tell why I disagree. He may have killed her and I suspect he killed Georgette Bauerdorf. But he didn't dissect Beth. A surgeon did that. So that makes either at least 2 involved or a doctor on his own. I'd like to hear what you think.

I don't agree with the theory that she couldn't have full sexual relations because she wasn't fully developed. If you don't mind, please let me know where you have found evidence that says she couldn't have 'proper' sexual relations. I'd really appreciate that.

Hi JB.... I went through my books, hoping I hadn't donated everything I ever read on her to the library when I moved but alas, the only thing I found was from a book called "When Killer Escape Justice" by Russell Gould, which covers a few unsolved crimes, including BS. Here is what is said about her under 'sexual and sadistic motives"

"However, Dr. Newbarr made a remarkable disclosure. In Gilmore's Severed, the surgeon is quoted as telling detectives that it was not possible to tell whether Beth had been raped, both because of the absence of sperm on the body and because Short did not have 'fully developed genitals... the area is shallow, indicating that she did not have a completed vaginal canal".

This fact expalins something about Beth's behavior with men during her lifetime; she may well have know that she was physically incapable of having sexual intercourse and felt unable to explain this to the men with whom she flirted. Beth's medical history reveals that, by her late teens, she had not yet menstruated. A doctor consulted by the Short family told Phoebe that Beth was a late developer as regard to her reproductive organs, although her breasts and pubic hair were normal for her age. One of Beths's 'dates' has observed that beneather her undersclothes she wore a pinned-on sanitarty napkin, even though she did not appear to me senstruating. It is possble that she habitually wore a napkin in order to avoid sexual intercourse.

Around the time of Beth's involvement with Gordan Fickling, she had apparently visited a doctor using the false name of B. Fickel and had requested a vaginal examination; the doctor had found this physically impossible to do as there was either some kind of blockage or there was a congenitally shortened vagina. Beth was duly referred to a urologist- whom she did not consult.

Detectives considered that the killer may have raped Beth anally, having found that the vagina was not long enough to make sex possible."

As my thoughts on a whodunnit, I have absolutely no clue. I haven't done anything more than read a few books here and there about her, but it's not the first time I've read about her sexual inability, weather it be true or not.
I wonder about the surgeon angle, but just how 'professionally' was she cut in half? IMO, any sicko can cut someone in half, but if there was careful dissection, that's a whole nother issue. Anything is possible, of course.

And here's a totally off topic question, open to everyone of course..... what's your take on the Helen Smith murder (RN in Saudi Arabia, May 1979, supposedly fell off the balcony while in a drunken sexual stupor along with Johannes Otten)?

[Grave Chaser]

Geesh, I need to spellcheck/re-read BEFORE I hit the post button..... please forgive the typos :biggrin:

[Grave Chaser]

Interesting..... as for the Gould book I refrenced earlier, the only information used for the bibliography of his version of events is 'The Black Dahlia' by James Ellroy, 'Severed' by John Gilmore, 'Daddy Was the Black Dahlia Killer' by Janice Knowlton and Michael Newton and 'The Badge' by Jack Webb. Oh well *shrugs*. There is so much out there, you never know what to believe and it's so hard to separate fact from fiction when it comes from a crime from so long ago.
I'm all for the surgeon theory if the dissection was that precise.
With that, I bid happy friday :beer:

[Vanillaangel]

The suffering that poor girl must have endured. :(

Something about her body displayed like that. The rage against the female parts especially. Her breasts and pubis area. However, it looks like there's something missing between her torso and hips. If she were put together it seems like her lower torso would be too short to attach directly to the bottom half as is.
And on her left leg, the chunk that's excised.
I know the majority opinion thus far is some psycho surgeon or maybe a sadist and surgeon working in concert.
However, looking at those wounds in total, I'm thinking it could be a butcher.
A butcher would be just as deft with a blade as a surgeon and the pieces that are excised from Ms.Short appear to be, what in contrast to a steer's anatomy, would be considered the prime meats. Only in this case, for the cannibal chef/connoisseur.

Also the bags, or what appear to be bags behind the body. Was anything revealed about those? Could they have been what transported the parts to the drop and then they were discarded?! The reason I ask is, she's not really posed in a manner to indicate anything sexual, even though the wounds appear to be made by what could be construed as a sexual sadist.
Rather, with her arms up like they are it looks as would appear if someone pulled the upper body out of a bag, using the hands as handles, so they could then drag her around and lay her there. Dropping the arms after would leave them in that position above her shoulders.
The legs would provide a handle of sorts at the feet as well. Maybe that explains why, if it were intended to be a pose in a manner indicating the before, (her living) and after, (the scene) , the perpetrator(s), one would think, would align the two parts. Not the case here. Rather, it's as if they brought her there so she'd be somewhat complete when found. But still, that middle torso area between the bottom of her ribs and the top of the lower body, looks like somethings missing. As if the assailant kept a huge chunk.

Also, what a risk! In a residential area to deposit a body that would have been quite cumbersome to remove from a vehicle and then lay there that close to traffic both on the street and sidewalk. As well as directly across from the windows of the houses in the background of the one image.

I wonder if the police canvased that neighborhood after. Particularly those windows wherein the occupants could see her clearly and on the morning of her discovery.

Someone that goes to that kind of trouble abducting, torturing and murdering a woman in this horrific manner, enjoys their work. If they didn't want her to be found they wouldn't have displayed her afterward in such a public place and nude. So it stands to reason wanting to control her body in this manner, they'd also want to watch the reactions to her discovery.

If all of this has been discussed before, as in documentaries etc... Forgive me. I'm rather new to this particular case and have only heard the most scant reports about it. I've yet to even watch the movie that accounts of this crime.

[susie31023]

Good point. I agree absolutely. But IMO, the surgical job done on her was too good to be done by a butcher. Or by anyone unused to cutting human bodies. The dissection wasn't a slash job. He knew where to cut and how to do it. But yes, I think she was left in such a public place for a reason. To warn, to scare, or perhaps to gloat. Or maybe all three. Or maybe for a reason I haven't thought of. But I don't think I'm far wrong.

I agree that it had to be a very skilled man to be able to completely disect her as he did. Let's not forget that someone had her for days before she was killed either. So something happened in those few day's that caused this person who tortured her to do what he did. Those torture wounds are rage killing at it's best. The one who did it wanted to cause her as much agony as he could. My question is how old were the torure wounds before her murder? If they were done just before she was murdered then maybe it was the same man but if not maybe he had help to disect her. I just don't see someone going from such rage to being able to calmly disect her without any problems.

The Bauerdorf killing some people associate with the same killer but I'm not sure it wasn't just a killing to throw police off. It very well could have been a ring of pros that Beth was in but I'm just not sure. She told people so many lies and stories that it's almost impossible to trace who or where she was at the time she was missing. I do find it very odd that this was a one time thing[if you don't count the Bauerdorf murder]. That to me says it was either a jealous rage killing or a much darker side of life that killed her. Hence the posing and therefore warning to other women, if you talk you will be just like her. All of course just my opinion.

[susie31023]

Hey Susie. Good to see you back posting. I agree with you. There was one man who killed and dissected her, or one man killed her and another dissected her. The rage is a good point because there was such violence. Such pain she went through. Kill. OK kill and be done with it. But no. She had to suffer. Why? I don't know if it was personal, mob related, psycho induced.
But it fascinates me.

Thank you JB, it really is good to be here again. You do bring up a good point about the mob though. They did/do like to make people suffer, but Beth's torture seemed more in a sexual way, you know all the cuts to her pubic area and such that I'm not sure they would have been in to that much. I really think the actual torture was a rage/personal thing. Now as for the disecting, I really don't know. Has to be doc but could he have managed to do it all? I guess we will never know. It sure would be good if we could luck up and find out how old the torture wounds were before her murder. I also agree this case has intrigued me since I first saw the movie years ago.

[susie31023]

I figure it comes down to 2 reasons. Sexual or business related. By that I mean the Mob. I don't know. Take your choice. But she didn't die randomly. That I'm sure of. She died for a reason.

I agree completely. I just wish we had a little more info on those wounds. IF she was indeed a pro the mob could have done the torure just to warn other pros what would happen to them.

[susie31023]

It's a pretty gruesome thought isn't it. Do what we say or else.

Very gruesome but it would have worked, don't you think? It may be the reason why there weren't any other murders like afterwards.

[susie31023]

And that's a really good thought about the Dahlia. Do what we say or else.

Thank you:biggrin:. My brain is again becoming somewhat functional,hehehe:D

[Vanillaangel]

I wouldn't discount the possibility of it being a butcher. Some people think butchers have no finesse in their work, however one of the large supermarkets here has a large plate glass window view of the men at work on the meats in the back of the meat display cases.
I've stopped and watched them on occasion, which is probably what prompted me to propose that rather than a surgeon this could have been a butcher. The knives they have are incredibly sharp, and their skill has to be just so, in order to trim specially ordered cuts.

I'd like to know, with the injuries to Ms.Short's body, where those would articulate on a steer's carcass. There's just something about the entire assault on her person that is elective from part to part. Her top half, her bottom half. She's not cut all over, but in places.
And the slashes on her pubis. If this was say a cannibalistic butchery, perhaps the perpetrator slashed there so violently not to represent sexual sadism per se, but to wipe out the visual reference to female genitalia. So as to make her less human/female, while the butchery was taking place.
Yes, her one breast was assaulted as if one was cutting off a fillet, (the circular excision) . However, a female pubic area is very specific to cause recall that this is a human female he was destroying. Perhaps he sliced that in a fit of rage to literally erase it from view, while he continued his work.

What I'd like to know is,if there was any investigation then or now what with archived records being put in storage or perhaps on microfiche or computer, of similar MO's in the surrounding area or other State's.

This horrific crime doesn't strike me as someone's first time.
And perhaps it wasn't personal to Ms. Short. As in her knowing her killer. Perhaps she fit a profile for a serial killers victims. Which is why the similar MO's would be an invaluable part of this investigation I think.

[susie31023]

As far as I have been able to research there were no other murders like hers. So no to the other MO's in that area or surrounding states. I'm sure that I have read somewhere how intense the investigation was. I believe they checked out every psycho and every suspect they had or could find. Now as to the invvestigation, I'm not sure but I think they check out any tips they get but it isn't an active investigation as of now. I may be wrong and if I am maybe JB can correct me.

There are many books about her murder and each one has their own version of who did it. I just don't believe that we will ever know unless someone finds some forgotten letter or note whereby the killer admits doing it. They do have information in her files that has been kept secret all these years just in case the killer was found. Who know's what the info could be, but the LE are convinced that it would confirm whether it was the real killer or not.

[susie31023]

Hey Susie. To the best of my knowledge, it's a cold case but that doesn't mean there aren't people who'd give practically everything they own to solve it.:rolleyes: One interesting thing though, is that much of the info on the Dahlia and her murder has still to be made public by the LA authorities. Now, you'd have to ask why? I do.

I think what I bolded gets down to the bones of this case. Why after all of these years has much of it still to be released? Seems as if there must be something there or else why all of the secrecy:rolleyes:?

[susie31023]

IMO there's info against some people in Hollywood and LA that it still wouldn't be welcome to reveal. There's still info on the Dahlia that hasn't been released. Maybe one day.

I agree but heck it's been over 60 years and still nothing. Seems like most if not all would be too old to care at this late date. But maybe like you said one day they will release the info so it could be solved. Dang it my keyboard is dyslexic. :punch:

[susie31023]

Didn't that package contain something else like a piece of her ear or something? Maybe I'm getting another case confused with this one, LOL. I think it was the killer who sent it but, I'm not sure he was the one who had torn out the pages that were missing. She could have done that. If I remember correctly it was some producer who she had stayed with for a few days, and somehow she managed to steal it. I still don't understand why all of the secrecy in this case. Unless there is something there that points directly at the killer and even then I don't see what harm it could cause anyone now. I wonder whats available under the freedomof info act? I guess those who wrote books on the case got whatever there was available..Grrrrrrrrr. I want to know how old those torture wounds were....

[Lodi]

You know, there's another thing about this case that puzzles me. The package sent to the police after her funeral containing the address book, her purse and ID. There was supposedly 'more to follow' but nothing ever showed up.

Now I can't say it was or wasn't her killer who sent the stuff. Why send it? The police had already id'd her with her fingerprints. I reckon the answer lies in the address book. There's a name or names in there that someone wanted brought out into the open. Same deal with why she was displayed where she was. There's a reason.

I also don't get why LE haven't released all the info. As you say it was 61years ago and the killer/s is/are probably long dead.

Whoever sent the stuff may have thought twice about sending another parcel to the police. Whether the sender was the killer or a friend doing a good deed, they may have considered the possibility of a police/post office conspiracy to identify them.

If the killer sent the address book, his name was probably not in it. Sending it would serve to tie police up following dead ends. I don't see police releasing names of innocent people and exposing them to the media and nut cases.

After the killer went to the trouble of cutting her up and doing the weird things to her body, I would guess he wanted to exhibit his shock art to the public. The spot he chose was probably not what he considered ideal. He would have preferred the intersection of Hollywood and Vine but for safety reasons he had to comprimise.

[DigitalDreamKat]

"However, Dr. Newbarr made a remarkable disclosure. In Gilmore's Severed, the surgeon is quoted as telling detectives that it was not possible to tell whether Beth had been raped, both because of the absence of sperm on the body and because Short did not have 'fully developed genitals... the area is shallow, indicating that she did not have a completed vaginal canal".



I think this is the big key to why she was cut in half and, of course, explains all the stab wounds in the genital area. The first person who found the body, thought she had found a mannequin - now think about that, really think - a mannequin has no vagina. Interesting, don't you think? Don't mannequins come apart at the waist? Also the way her arms were posed, it was very doll like.

The huge chunk cut out of her thigh indicates, to me anyway, cannibalism. I'm surprised this never seems to come up in this case.

The cut open mouth could mean two things - that she talked too much, or, it's far more sexual. The comparison between a woman's lips and her vaginal lips comes up a bit.

It doesn't have to be a doctor, it could be a butcher or a hunter or even a chef. She was only cut in half, it doesn't require medical knowledge to be able to do that. Look at Jeffrey Dahmer. He was none of the things I listed as possible professions and by all accounts, his bodies were precisely cut up.

Anyway, some things to think about, or not. Hello all :)

[susie31023]

I too don't think of canabalism in this case. It seems as if it was maybe a part of the torture. I have read many things on this case and I think if there were someone out there with that particular MO it would have been found. But if someone can point me in the right direction I too would be happy to entertain this theory. As for the severing of her body, well I think it almost had to be someone who could do this type of procedure without making any mistakes. All accounts lead one to think that it almost had to be one who felt at ease and was capable of making the precise cut in order to hit just the right spot. Just my opinion of course

[susie31023]

Thats what I did JB. I really think it was part of the torture.

[SaraSidle]

Thats what I did JB. I really think it was part of the torture.

are you all sure it was not to remove tattoos or something else? yes I am back to torture you all.

[susie31023]

are you all sure it was not to remove tattoos or something else? yes I am back to torture you all.

I really don't think it was to remove a tattoo. I think he wanted top hurt her and hurt her extremely bad. I think he almost relished seeing her in so much pain.

[SaraSidle]

Welcome back Sara. Now, can you tell me who killed the Black Dahlia?

well I have not been able to keep up the last 2 months but it could have been the doctor who lived near by. I am sad you did not send me any messages while I was gone.

[susie31023]

well I have not been able to keep up the last 2 months but it could have been the doctor who lived near by. I am sad you did not send me any messages while I was gone.

Welcome back Sara:beer:

[SaraSidle]

Welcome back Sara:beer:

thanks susie. love your avatar btw

[susie31023]

thanks susie. love your avatar btw

Thank you wanted to get in the spirit of the season:biggrin:

[SaraSidle]

Thank you wanted to get in the spirit of the season:biggrin:

susie my husband saw it too and said make sure she comes to visit us! LOL

[susie31023]

susie my husband saw it too and said make sure she comes to visit us! LOL

LOL, Ok I will try to arrange that:biggrin:. Hope you are doing well now. I was kinda worried there:seeya: .

[susie31023]

Hey Suse, Sara. It was quite a large chunk of flesh taken from the front of her left thigh. I understand it's not on the large scale compared to what he did to her body but why there? Why not from her back or her left ankle? As everything with this perp, there's a reason he did what he did to her body.

Maybe because he was already slicing her Pubic area? Frenzy? Not sure but if it were just to remove a tattoo so as to not be able to identify her then why leave her out in a public place? I'm not sure how popular tattoos were with women back then so I don't know if she would have had one. Now they are common place but then I think it was mostly men.:shrug:I do agree that there was a reason the killer did everything he did, just don't know what that would be. Rage? Jealousy? Revenge? A Message? All I do know is that whoever did this wanted to make her suffer as much as possible before she died. Dang it, I wish we could find out how old those wounds were. Where's that dang smiley butting his head when you need him. grrrrrrrr.

[susie31023]

Sorry to post again so soon, but I have been looking at the photo's of her body. I really don't think the area on her thigh was where a tattoo would be placed. If you look it's just above the knee. Most would have a tattoo on the upper thigh not there. Now looking at how he managed to cut hunks out of her breast and other areas it is possible he just did it to enjoy her pain.

Also her wrists look as if they may have had possible rope marks on them to me. Maybe it was just the way the shadows were but it really looks like where she was bound. The actual cut {Bisecting her]is almost a precision cut. Notice there aren't any jagged edges? It is completely smooth, so possibly a scalpel? Most knives would not make that smooth of a cut. Also notice on her head the indentations and cuts. Almost as if she were in some sort of head device? She had to have been restrained because there aren't really any clear bruises to show that she may have fought back.

I think I am going to try and see if I can find a email for the detective in charge of her case. wouldn't hurt to ask him what info is available. There has to be more information than we have been able to find on her. So what the heck, at the least he will think I'm bonkers at the most we may find out something we didn't know before. So every one wish me luck...~Suz

[susie31023]

Well I can admit when I'm wrong, LOL. There was a rose tattoo on her left leg and it was gouged/cut out by the killer. The lady who paid for her bus fair back home after she was arrested said she like to sit where you could see it.

I haven't found out who is in charge of her case in LA. But...I found her files at the FBI site. I will post a link below. It takes a while to load[ at least for me] so be patient. I still haven't read it all but there seems to be some witnesses who said she had told them about an old boyfriend that she was afraid of. Supposedly he told her he would kill her if he found her with another man. This was in the papers at the time. They are very old and some of it's very hard to make out, yet I thought yall might be interested. If I read it right it seems as if the ME was saying the actual torture took place after she died. It said there was evvidence of her hands and feet being bound.The cause of death was the cut to her face I believe.

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/short_e.htm

Sorry for being wrong on the tattoo, but if it's true that most of the torture was post mortem then at least she didn't suffer through all of the horrific things done to her. So if thats the case it was personal, had to be at least in my opinion~Suz

[grneyes]

I know who did it.. It was Dexter! He likes to carve people up. ;-)

Just kidding ya'll.

[grneyes]

Well I can admit when I'm wrong, LOL. There was a rose tattoo on her left leg and it was gouged/cut out by the killer. The lady who paid for her bus fair back home after she was arrested said she like to sit where you could see it.

I haven't found out who is in charge of her case in LA. But...I found her files at the FBI site. I will post a link below. It takes a while to load[ at least for me] so be patient. I still haven't read it all but there seems to be some witnesses who said she had told them about an old boyfriend that she was afraid of. Supposedly he told her he would kill her if he found her with another man. This was in the papers at the time. They are very old and some of it's very hard to make out, yet I thought yall might be interested. If I read it right it seems as if the ME was saying the actual torture took place after she died. It said there was evvidence of her hands and feet being bound.The cause of death was the cut to her face I believe.

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/short_e.htm

Sorry for being wrong on the tattoo, but if it's true that most of the torture was post mortem then at least she didn't suffer through all of the horrific things done to her. So if thats the case it was personal, had to be at least in my opinion~Suz

I wonder how good the ME was back in those days though? They have come a long way with science since then so maybe they don't really know for sure that she was dead before the torture.

[susie31023]

I wonder how good the ME was back in those days though? They have come a long way with science since then so maybe they don't really know for sure that she was dead before the torture.

I agree not too sure how good the ME was back then. But from what I can see[ can't get the dang pages to load] they said they had a "viable" suspect and even though most of it's mark out it still requests to find out if this person is still in the army and where he was in Jan. If I can ever get the dang pages to load I can read the rest of it. I know it says there are 51 pages of info and they don't even have what LAPD does. Makes you wonder just how much is really been kept secret doesn't it?

[SaraSidle]

I agree not too sure how good the ME was back then. But from what I can see[ can't get the dang pages to load] they said they had a "viable" suspect and even though most of it's mark out it still requests to find out if this person is still in the army and where he was in Jan. If I can ever get the dang pages to load I can read the rest of it. I know it says there are 51 pages of info and they don't even have what LAPD does. Makes you wonder just how much is really been kept secret doesn't it?

Nice work Susie. I would not have been surprised if it was a tattoo. as far as when she was cut it is hard to say. I am thinking her mouth was probably cut when she was alive to make a point. IMO

[susie31023]

Terrific work Detective Susie! I'm trying to remember back to the original thread where we talked a lot about how she died. I'm pretty certain it was the combination of the blows to her head and the gash across her face and through her mouth that actually killed her. I think the cause of death was shock and blood loss combined. But Suse, more info please. PS. Got to be a doctor somewhere...Actually if you read the FBI reports there are a couple of Dr's, mentioned. I believe one was Swartze and the other I can't remember. I have a slow loading version of Adobe acrobat and so I can never get all the pages to load. I'm with you on the doc for sure now JB,the way the cutting of her body was way too smooth for it to not be one. I'm still trying to find the detective in charge of her case.

[susie31023]

I assume you mean as in cold case files?

Yep, I figure it cant hurt nothing to lose except that he thinks I'm bonkers, LOL:biggrin:

[SaraSidle]

Yep, I figure it cant hurt nothing to lose except that he thinks I'm bonkers, LOL:biggrin:

I thought I remember the suspect was a doctor in the neighborhood who did not get what he wanted or was afraid his affair with her would become public. IMO

[susie31023]

I thought I remember the suspect was a doctor in the neighborhood who did not get what he wanted or was afraid his affair with her would become public. IMO

That was Bayley and I haven't been able to find any evidence that he even knew her, that and he was kinda old with a form of brain disease

[SaraSidle]

No you're right Susie. It wasn't Dr Walter Bayley. Definite no to him.

that is right thanks Susie his name was bayley. how sure are you Joseph? I mean if he had brain damage?????????????

[SaraSidle]

Absolutely positive Sara. This is like old times. Our previous thread has gone walkabout again but I did research him. This from memory but he had a severe medical condition that made it impossible for him to have had anything to do with her death and yes he died not long after. Do you know how to get the original thread back up? I did a lot of research on it and it would be good to be able to review it.

I do not know how to get it up Joseph and I am sorry I do remember this conversation now. Feels wierd to have been gone 2 months over a broken lap top. Maybe Deepwater can help you......

[susie31023]

Reading the papers at the FBI site, it says a "military type" watch was found in the search around where her body was discovered,never heard that before that I know of. Also the bellhop[Dillon?] who supposedly told info the cops hadn't released and who named Conners, why did they just let him go? Something just doesn't add up here. Cops say he couldn't have known the info without either seeing their files or having been there, yet they let him go and nothing is ever said as to why they let him go. Simply because he gave them Conners name?

After reading all of the newspaper articles it seems as if there were "other" unsolved murders of women during that period, yet they only mention Jeanne French. One paper says the Dahlia was the first one in a series. So much was written in the papers that it is almost impossible to figure to out what was true. It is really hard to read some of it but well worth it to at least try.

The last article dated in the 1950's I believe says that a grand jury determined that the actual murder site was about 15 minutes away from the place where she was dumped. It says they found bloody clothes and linens similar to what she wore. If that's true then what ever happened to that grand jury? There's no more info in their files about it.grrrrrrr.

Now Sara there was another Bailey mentioned but he was much younger and not a Dr. I think his name was Melvin R. Bailey, anyway he was in the military. Just thought I would let you know maybe thats what you were thinking of.

Not too sure about Red Manley either. His only witness was his wife. I also noticed he was a salesman of pipe fittings or such. The holes in her forehead could have been made by a vice or hammer in my opinion. Seems as if the Coroner thought she had been hung by her heels while the cutting and torture was being done.

Anyway just thought I would let yall know what I have found so far just in case you haven't read the files. Now I'm off to try and find the investigator in this case now..

[LetsBeConcerned]

Here is how you can find the old threads…..

If you scroll to the bottom of this page and click on the the Black Dahlia “Go” button … let that page load… and then scroll down to the box that says from the “last 30 days”

CHANGE that box to “begining”… then click on “show threads”…. You will then see all 15 threads on the black dahlia.


I hope this helps.

:seeya:

[susie31023]

Thanks LBC, very much appreciated. Hope you have a great New year~Suz

[SaraSidle]

Thanks LBC, very much appreciated. Hope you have a great New year~Suz

Oh my goodness Susie What great posts and Some great stuff to look at. you go girl.

[susie31023]

Thank you Sara, Hope your New Year is great~Suz

[susie31023]

You've found some really interesting details there Suse. I'll be interested to see what else you come up with. 1st one in a series? Who? Where? When?



Thats the thing JB. It just ends there. No names no mention of any of the "other" unsolved murders of women in the area. The only one that was mentioned was Jeanne French. also the watch being found there leads me to think he might have lost it by accident. Could be it isn't even related..but... if it is then why didn't they follow up with more info?

That dang bellhop {dillon} who gave De River, Conner"s name is staying with me too. Why did they just let him go.? It says he knew things that only someone who had been there would know yet they just let him walk out, grrrrrr. Has to be a Doc, JB..But we don't even have half of the info out there on this case...

Also that Grand Jury saying they had found the murder house makes me seriously wonder what the cops did hold back..

[susie31023]

Sorry Suse. Can you post the site back up again? Jeanne French? I've never heard of her in relation to this case. There you go. Find something new.
Murder house? Where? Watch? You're a good detective.

There's no solid evidence that BD was a victim of a serial killer. There are murders like Georgette Bauerdorf's that have similarities but..if some bloke was wandering around LA cutting women in half then you'd think the big lightbulb would be burning. For LE.

Here you go JB, it takes a while to load but the papers are worth the read. Geogette was actually murdered a few years before Betty was. According to the things I have read there aren't any ties to link them anyway..Just copy and paste in your browser..ok you just click on the link,LOL

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/short_e.htm

Jeanne French was killed in february after Betty. Not a lot I can find on her though. It always comes back to Bety. Jeanne was the one who was found murdered with BD written in Lipstick on her leg I believe.

[susie31023]

Thanks Susie. I'll have a look at them now. I'm not so sure I'd be so quick to dismiss Bauerdorf. She knew BD. I don't what the stats are for someone you know to be murdered but for 2 young women to die a violent death within a few years of each other - just pointing it out. BD was a more likely candidate I'd say. Bauerdorf came from money and wasn't a drifter like BD. I'm not saying they were murdered by the same person, not at all. I'd suggest just don't wipe Bauerdorf off completely.

And stop blaming me for the fact that you carn't spel.

After reading a little more info from the FBI site, I found a letter saying that LAPD had found Betty was married to this guy but the name is blacked out. Now we know she had at one time claimed to be engaged to or married to Matt Gordon...This wasn't him. it plainly says that they were married and he was living in the area when the murder occurred. My question is who were they talking about and was it a proven? I'm not sure if it is or not. Just that there is a letter in there stating this. I have an email into someone I hope can help me. I just have to be patient, grrrrrrr....

And I have to blame you becuz I carnt spel, cuz u wont teech me tooo.:biggrin:

Do yo remember how or where you found the info on Bauerdorf and BD being aquainted? Because according to the FBI file it says Bauerdorf was murdered before BD went to California. Argggggg, so much to sort through to find out the truth.

[Lodi]

Snip -- The investigation stalled once again although Aggie Underwood, an aggressive crime reporter for the "Herald-Express", urged the detectives to follow-up on the murder of a young socialite named Georgette Bauerdorf, which had occurred a few years before. Aggie believed the murder was connected to that of Beth Short. The two women had known one another from the Hollywood Canteen and Georgette had been strangled and raped before being dumped into a bathtub face down. Investigators surmised that Beth had been killed and then washed and severed in half over a bathtub.

The Bauerdorf case had never been solved and was under the jurisdiction of the sheriff’s department. The investigation had died when deputies were unable to locate a "tall soldier" who had dated Georgette. She had reportedly been frightened by him and had stopped seeing him. Investigators suspected that he was involved in her death but the links were never made between her death and that of Beth Short. Jurisdictional problems kept the two departments from working together and Aggie Underwood was ordered off the story by William Randolph Hearst, the publisher of the newspaper. As a friend of the wealthy Bauerdorf family, he didn’t want the sordid details of the girl’s murder stirred up again. This may have been a tragic misstep, as Georgette's car had been found abandoned not far from where Beth's body was eventually discovered.

http://www.prairieghosts.com/beth.html

[susie31023]

Lodi, I saw that but it is from the ghost site. What I was referring to were the actual FBI files that stated they had not known each other. From what I read she was murdered long before BD came to Cal. Thats why I was asking if JB knew or could remember where he had seen the information at.

[SaraSidle]

Lodi, I saw that but it is from the ghost site. What I was referring to were the actual FBI files that stated they had not known each other. From what I read she was murdered long before BD came to Cal. Thats why I was asking if JB knew or could remember where he had seen the information at.

you have gotten so far Susie. No when I said Bayley I meant the older doctor. I am really excited reading you posts. Good Job Sara

[SaraSidle]

I know Suse won't read this for a long time. She has other, far more important matters to deal with. Unfortunately, I can't get the FBI site to download so I can't comment. Yes, I know BD considered herself 'engaged' to Matt Gordon and he died in the war. But married? That's another new one on me.
That's why boards are good. You can find out so much info.

I have BD serving at the Hollywood Canteen in September 44. That's when she met Lt. Joseph Fickling who she dated. Bauerdorf was also serving as a junior hostess at the canteen at the same time. Bauerdorf was murdered on October 12 1944.

They were there. Together. At the same time. They knew each other. Maybe not 'best friends' stuff. But they were there.

If you look at the morgue photos of Bauerdorf you can see her mouth has been torn where a piece of cloth was stuffed down her throat. That's why I suspect there may have been a link. But I can't prove it. I've just been looking at a photo of BD's face after she's been stitched and cleaned up. Her eyes are open and to me anyway, you can see the agony she suffered. It wasn't a pretty death, if there is such a thing.

Joseph I have not seen that picture but I believe you. first I have heard of it. sara

[SaraSidle]

You mean BD after she was stitched up? It's been out there for a long time.

It's not pretty to look at. But..I mean, we are here to discuss murder. Morgue and coroner photos aren't what you'd choose to look at but if you want to discuss murder then...

no I have not seen pictures of her but I have of dahlia. where are the stitches?

[javahog]

no I have not seen pictures of her but I have of dahlia. where are the stitches?

I'm just bumping this because I can't stand to see Sara's name next to that sad emoticon face anymore!

[Bargle5]

no I have not seen pictures of her but I have of dahlia. where are the stitches?
I know this is an old post, but I'll answer it anyway, since it doesn't appear to have been answered in this thread.

The stitches were done after the autopsy. They were to hold together the cuts in BD's cheeks. You can see them in the autopsy shot of her face.

[SaraSidle]

I know this is an old post, but I'll answer it anyway, since it doesn't appear to have been answered in this thread.

The stitches were done after the autopsy. They were to hold together the cuts in BD's cheeks. You can see them in the autopsy shot of her face.

I think Joseph was talking about Bauerdorf who slightly knew BD. IMO

[Bargle5]

After rereading, it is a bit ambiguous. I took a look with Google for the Bauerdorf autopsy photos, but didn't find them. Never mind then. :shrug:

[SaraSidle]

After rereading, it is a bit ambiguous. I took a look with Google for the Bauerdorf autopsy photos, but didn't find them. Never mind then. :shrug:

Actually I started reading prior posts there and was fascinated by some of the things I had forgotten. the FBI link is so interesting. too bad there are so many things blacked out. I only read the first 2 sections Bargle but there were some good stuff.

Too bad we cannot look at the whole record now that all this time as passed.
IMO

[Marian Paroo]

Too bad we cannot look at the whole record now that all this time as passed.
IMO

Well, it looks as if we will be able to read the Mata Hari file in a couple of years -- the 100 year ban is coming to an end in 2016 or 2017.

[SaraSidle]

Well, it looks as if we will be able to read the Mata Hari file in a couple of years -- the 100 year ban is coming to an end in 2016 or 2017.

That would be great too