Gary Dunn

[SaraSidle]

There was no plea bargain in the Bona Dea trial. Both sides would have to agree to a plea bargain. The prosection may not want a plea bargain.

At this time I do not think there should be any deal. IMO sara

[JR2007]

At this time I do not think there should be any deal. IMO sara

The thing is, if he maintains his innocents and goes to trial, and is convicted, will we really know if he really murdered her. A conviction, just as an acquittal can be in error.
On the other hand if he is offered a plea bargain and excepts it, one would have to assume that he did indeed murder her and is taking the plea bargain to get a reduced sentence.

[SaraSidle]

The thing is, if he maintains his innocents and goes to trial, and is convicted, will we really know if he really murdered her. A conviction, just as an acquittal can be in error.
On the other hand if he is offered a plea bargain and excepts it, one would have to assume that he did indeed murder her and is taking the plea bargain to get a reduced sentence.

So what do you prefer?

[The R]

At this time I do not think there should be any deal. IMO sara

I'd have to disagree a little :)

but of course I'd gladly remove my opinion in the interest of the family if asked; I wouldn't want to insult anyone.

I am of the opinion that if there is or were to be a a plea bargain, that it is probably the least expensive outcome to the taxpayer.

[sweetgranny]

The thing is, if he maintains his innocents and goes to trial, and is convicted, will we really know if he really murdered her. A conviction, just as an acquittal can be in error.
On the other hand if he is offered a plea bargain and excepts it, one would have to assume that he did indeed murder her and is taking the plea bargain to get a reduced sentence.

I feel the same way about this. Will we ever really know?????:shrug:

[JR2007]

So what do you prefer?

I seek some surety that they convict the guilty party. So, it depends on what the new evidence is that they have against Dunn. If they have nothing concrete and are just putting on a show for us, then I'll take the plea bargain.

[SaraSidle]

I seek some surety that they convict the guilty party. So, it depends on what the new evidence is that they have against Dunn. If they have nothing concrete and are just putting on a show for us, then I'll take the plea bargain.

All I can think of is the rubber and dna on it...........IMO sara

[jeremiads]

All I can think of is the rubber and dna on it...........IMO saraThe unfortunate part of that being that the condom itself was never found.

[SaraSidle]

The unfortunate part of that being that the condom itself was never found.

well I meant the wrapper. there has to be some evidence with fingerprints,palm prints and blood spatter. I think LE knows something and we will find out at some time. IMO sara

[lorettalockhorn]

well I meant the wrapper. there has to be some evidence with fingerprints,palm prints and blood spatter. I think LE knows something and we will find out at some time. IMO sara

Not sure if there was ever anything mentioned other than the DNA on the wrapper. We don't know what kind of DNA, and it was reportedly already checked for prints. Supposedly the wrapper has Nona's DNA on it, but we don't know if it's blood or saliva or what. Just have to wonder how it can be proven that Dunn left the wrapper there and that it wasn't planted. We can assume that Dunn's trash was nearby to Nona's apartment. And gosh, didn't his mother live relatively near the Bayou Cafe? Sheesh For all I know, the wrapper could have been taken from her trash by someone who was in the area near the time of the murder.

[SaraSidle]

Not sure if there was ever anything mentioned other than the DNA on the wrapper. We don't know what kind of DNA, and it was reportedly already checked for prints. Supposedly the wrapper has Nona's DNA on it, but we don't know if it's blood or saliva or what. Just have to wonder how it can be proven that Dunn left the wrapper there and that it wasn't planted. We can assume that Dunn's trash was nearby to Nona's apartment. And gosh, didn't his mother live relatively near the Bayou Cafe? Sheesh For all I know, the wrapper could have been taken from her trash by someone who was in the area near the time of the murder.

that is gross Loretta. that is why I think LE knows more than they are leading on. I bet both dna are on that wrappers.!

[lorettalockhorn]

that is gross Loretta. that is why I think LE knows more than they are leading on. I bet both dna are on that wrappers.!

Yes, I've read that, but we need proof as to how and when the DNA was deposited, & how and when the wrapper ended up in her apartment? The original theory was that it was planted, and then by the time the case went to trial, the wrapper was a trigger. I still think it was planted.

[SaraSidle]

Yes, I've read that, but we need proof as to how and when the DNA was deposited, & how and when the wrapper ended up in her apartment? The original theory was that it was planted, and then by the time the case went to trial, the wrapper was a trigger. I still think it was planted.

You know Loretta that is quite interesting. Leave the wrapper but take the contents. Either very not smart or planting as you said. IMO sara

[The R]

no more news on Dunn, eh?


R

[FDInLaw]

bumping

[lorettalockhorn]

http://www.fox16.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d9d71739-5322-494e-9129-600f9025db35&rss=315


I'm seeing this argument used by Dunn's supporters a lot. Wasn't Kevin's dna the only one that was ran before his trial??? Jeremy Martin has stated that his was collected AFTER the trial. At any rate, it's obvious that the investigators DID NOT have this dna evidence on Dunn when Kevin was charged and tried. I'm sure the question of why they didn't will have Frost up on the stand again. JMO

Speaking of Frost on the stand again (and I apologize if this has been discussed in this thread); it seems that one of the ways for the defense to create reasonable doubt would be to bring up the KJ trial and use The State's expert witness who testified to Kevin's palm print having been made at the time of the murder, as well as James Bacon. The (current) prosecution would then use the defense's expert to disprove that theory; that Kevin's print was made at the time of the discovery of Nona's body. If this tactic is used, not only will they have to make Chief Bacon and the (former) expert look wrong and/or misinformed, but they will have to make Gibbons/Phillips/the former prosecution team look like jackasses for having bought the whole theory about KJ having touched the lamp/bulb during the commission of the murder.

But I suppose this sort of thing happens all the time.

RIP Nona.

[sololobo]

Speaking of Frost on the stand again (and I apologize if this has been discussed in this thread); it seems that one of the ways for the defense to create reasonable doubt would be to bring up the KJ trial and use The State's expert witness who testified to Kevin's palm print having been made at the time of the murder, as well as James Bacon. The (current) prosecution would then use the defense's expert to disprove that theory; that Kevin's print was made at the time of the discovery of Nona's body. If this tactic is used, not only will they have to make Chief Bacon and the (former) expert look wrong and/or misinformed, but they will have to make Gibbons/Phillips/the former prosecution team look like jackasses for having bought the whole theory about KJ having touched the lamp/bulb during the commission of the murder.

But I suppose this sort of thing happens all the time.

RIP Nona.

I would not be surprised if several of the prosecution witnesses from the first trial will be on the defense's witness list.... and vice/versa. Will Kevin be on either's witness list?

[lorettalockhorn]

I would not be surprised if several of the prosecution witnesses from the first trial will be on the defense's witness list.... and vice/versa. Will Kevin be on either's witness list?

Doubt it, but suppose there's no telling. But doesn't it seem ironic (or something?) that The State in Dunn's case may have to persecute The State/prosecution in the Jones case?

[FDInLaw]

Doubt it, but suppose there's no telling. But doesn't it seem ironic (or something?) that The State in Dunn's case may have to persecute The State/prosecution in the Jones case?Very ironic, Kevin may serve as the "Troy York" this round. I will be surprised if he is not asked to take the stand. After all, Kevin was the one that found Nona's body and he was with her the night before the murder. Seems like the making of a witness to me. . . :shrug:

[lorettalockhorn]

Very ironic, Kevin may serve as the "Troy York" this round. I will be surprised if he is not asked to take the stand. After all, Kevin was the one that found Nona's body and he was with her the night before the murder. Seems like the making of a witness to me. . . :shrug:

You are exactly right about that. (Not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. :confused: ) The defense will surely hammer away at his (IMO) bizarre behavior on the scene, the fact that the lights weren't turned on, the fact that Kevin didn't stay on the phone with 911, and will surely want to at least insinuate that in the dark Kevin could have planted the wrapper without the other two seeing him.

[lorettalockhorn]

Today's Courier has an article about Nona's murder. (Not online yet, but I'll keep looking.)

[FDInLaw]

Today's Courier has an article about Nona's murder. (Not online yet, but I'll keep looking.)
"Another year has gone by" type article or something with actual news????

[lorettalockhorn]

"Another year has gone by" type article or something with actual news????

It's part of their Year in Review section; don't expect much news with the gag order in place. But thought it was important anyway, as a reminder that justice has not been served.

[sololobo]

Today's Courier has an article about Nona's murder. (Not online yet, but I'll keep looking.)


http://www.couriernews.com/story.php?ID=20268

[FDInLaw]

http://www.couriernews.com/story.php?ID=20268

2008 brings new arrest in connection with crime that rocked the River Valley

Editor’s note — Through Jan. 1, The Courier will profile — and, when possible, update — the top local news stories of 2008, as voted by our readers. Today, we look back to Aug. 23, when prosecutors announced Gary W. Dunn, 29, had been arrested in connection with the 2005 murder of Nona Dirksmeyer. He has since pleaded not guilty, and remains incarcerated awaiting an April trial.
Attorneys for both the defense and prosecution agreed to a gag order Sept. 17 barring involved parties from making public comment regarding the case.
Thanks for the link, Sololobo. :seeya:

If things stay quiet, is there still a chance that Dunn will be tried in the Spring?

[FDInLaw]

Bill Bristow of Jonesboro, one of three attorneys who represented Jones, declined comment when asked whether he believed Dunn’s arrest was related to DNA the defense team announced in February it matched to DNA discovered on a condom wrapper found in Dirksmeyer’s apartment the night of her death.
“I’ve just taken the position ever since the special prosecutor was appointed that any comments needed to come through the special prosecutor,” Bristow said.
But Michael Robbins of Dover, another of Jones’ attorneys, told the AP the defense team was aware of Dunn’s connection to Dirksmeyer, but only recently obtained a DNA sample from Dunn.
Robbins declined to specify how the defense team obtained Dunn’s DNA, but acknowledged investigators gathered some samples from uncooperative suspects without their knowledge, the AP reported. This made me laugh. . . once again, Bristow is the professional and Robbins is the maverick that can't keep his mouth shut! LOL. Nothing new. :rolleyes:

[lorettalockhorn]

This made me laugh. . . once again, Bristow is the professional and Robbins is the maverick that can't keep his mouth shut! LOL. Nothing new. :rolleyes:

So what's with the "uncooperative suspects"? hmmm Let's see. There's a suspect(s). (S)he is initially uncooperative. A warrant is issued for DNA. Suspect either becomes compliant. Or else.

So that wasn't done. Where will be the valid chain of custody here?

[FDInLaw]

So what's with the "uncooperative suspects"? hmmm Let's see. There's a suspect(s). (S)he is initially uncooperative. A warrant is issued for DNA. Suspect either becomes compliant. Or else.

So that wasn't done. Where will be the valid chain of custody here?I'm sure there is a fun story here. . . lol. :D

[FDInLaw]

Thought ~ Either Dunn doesn't have many friends, or they are displaying restraint. We certainly are not seeing the same level of Internet trolling this time around.

*knock on wood*

[lorettalockhorn]

Thought ~ Either Dunn doesn't have many friends, or they are displaying restraint. We certainly are not seeing the same level of Internet trolling this time around.

*knock on wood*

LMAO Keep in mind just how many of Kevin's trolls, er uh friends, were the same obsessed person.

[FDInLaw]

LMAO Keep in mind just how many of Kevin's trolls, er uh friends, were the same obsessed person.Ah, don't forget the young-things that had Steve droppin' f-bombs on his site. I wonder if I have that stuff saved lol. :biggrin:

[The R]

You are exactly right about that. (Not sure what I was thinking when I wrote that. :confused: ) The defense will surely hammer away at his (IMO) bizarre behavior on the scene, the fact that the lights weren't turned on, the fact that Kevin didn't stay on the phone with 911, and will surely want to at least insinuate that in the dark Kevin could have planted the wrapper without the other two seeing him.

that would all be interesting for sure. Think the defense would ask KJ if he committed the murder? That'd be a twist.

ALLMO,
R

[FDInLaw]

Bumping for Loretta! :seeya:

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks FD. Yesterday there were only five of five threads showing in this forum. Thanks to Deepwater (for restoring if that's what happened)!

ETA: Okay. Today Show Threads in the Display Options works. *Twilight Zone music* Hope my laptop doesn't need to go to rehab. :hat:

[FDInLaw]

WOO HOO! All the threads can be seen now! Won't have to bump them any more. :beer:

Thank you Deepwater! :seeya:

[lorettalockhorn]

She's the best! :beer:

[upallnight]

WOO HOO! All the threads can be seen now! Won't have to bump them any more. :beer:

Thank you Deepwater! :seeya:
Glad to see them all up again. Hope you are all doing good and everyone had great Holidays! As always, prayer for Carol and thinking of Nona. Please pray for Joseph Putnam, he is a friend of the family and is going thru a mile stone of post tramatic stress due to the war. He is missing and we are all worried about his well being. Hopefully he will be found safe soon. Thanks in advance!

[lorettalockhorn]

Dunn Seeks Mental Health Expert

Russellville - A man charged with killing an Arkansas Tech student at her Russellville apartment wants a judge to allow him to have an independent medical examination.

The ruling would come into play if 29-year-old Gary Dunn is convicted.

Dunn, of Dover, has pleaded not guilty to capital murder for the 2005 killing of Nona Dirksmeyer. A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday in Pope County Circuit Court in Russellville on Tuesday in advance of an April 13th trial.

Dunn's lawyers say an exam at the State Hospital would only be to determine whether Dunn is competent to be tried. They also note that prosecutors would have access to what Dunn says to examiners.

Having the exam would enable defense lawyers to better defend Dunn if there is a penalty phase to determine whether he should be executed or given life in prison.

Dirksmeyer was found bludgeoned to death in her apartment on December 15th, 2005.

Her boyfriend, Kevin Jones, was charged but a jury found him not guilty. Special prosecutor Jack McQuary says he believes that Jones did not kill Dirksmeyer.

http://www.katv.com/news/stories/0209/595359.html

[FDInLaw]

Dunn seeks own mental exam


Story date: Feb. 17, 2009

Client’s defense still ‘that of innocence,’ attorneys say; results would be admissible only during penalty phase of capital murder trial

(AP) — A man charged with killing an Arkansas Tech student at her South Inglewood Avenue apartment wants a judge to allow him to have an independent medical examination, which would come into play if he is convicted.
Gary Dunn, 29, of Dover, pleaded not guilty to capital murder for the 2005 killing of Nona Dirksmeyer, 19. A hearing is scheduled for 1:30 p.m. today in Pope County Circuit Court before Circuit Judge Bill Pearson in advance of an April 13 trial.
Lawyers for Dunn, Jeff Rosenzweig and William O. James Jr., both of Little Rock, said in a motion that prosecutors can ask for the death penalty if Dunn is convicted.
“(Dunn’s) defense is that of innocence. He does not challenge his competency to stand trial. Therefore, there is no necessity for an examination at the Arkansas State Hospital,” the motion stated.
A gag order is in effect, preventing parties involved from discussing the case.
Authorities previously said Dunn lived in the same apartment complex that Dirksmeyer lived in when she was bludgeoned to death Dec. 15, 2005. Dirksmeyer’s boyfriend, Kevin Jones, was charged with first-degree murder but a jury found him not guilty in 2007.
A press release issued by Michael Robbins, one of Jones’ defense lawyers, pointed to a condom wrapper with DNA evidence that was found in the apartment. . .
Among other items up for consideration Tuesday before Pearson is a defense request to delay the trial.
If Dunn is convicted, his lawyers want to be able to present a mental health expert of their own during the penalty phase of the trial, which will focus on whether the defendant should be executed or given life in prison without parole.
Any mental health evaluation conducted by the State Hospital is limited to “determinations of competency to stand trial and opinions as to sanity at the time of the offense.” Prosecutors would also have access to the results.
In addition to asking for Public Defender Commission funds for the mental evaluation, defense lawyers want the judge to order statements Dunn makes in the independent evaluation to “be held to be inadmissible unless Dunn places his relevant mental state at issue in a trial.”


http://www.couriernews.com/story.php?ID=20689

See Link for complete article.

[FDInLaw]

Should we make a game of guessing the new date? :shrug: (Sarcasm)


Not a surprise. Wonder if it will be granted?

[lorettalockhorn]

I can't imagine that a delay won't be allowed since this is a capital case and the accused appears to have limited resources. The court won't want to error in any way.

ETA: I forgot to guess. I'll take mid-July.

[FDInLaw]

A prosecutor says that a man charged with killing an Arkansas Tech student at her Russellville apartment should be put to death himself.


Jack McQuary of Little Rock, named as a special prosecutor in the 2005 slaying of 19-year-old Nona Dirksmeyer, said at a pretrial hearing today that he would seek the death penalty for 19-year-old Gary W. Dunn of Dover. Dunn is charged with capital murder.

Circuit Judge Bill Pearson of Clarksville granted a request by a lawyer for Dunn, Jeff Rosenzweig of Little Rock, for an independent mental examination of the defendant. Pearson then granted a request to continue the case to allow time for the evaluation. The case had been set for trial April 13th. No new trial date was set.

Dunn, who was living at the time of Dirksmeyer's slaying in the same Russellville apartment complex where she was a resident, is the second man to face a murder charge in her death.

>snip<
McQuary has said he believes that Jones did not kill Dirksmeyer.

Dunn, who has denied ever being in Dirksmeyer's apartment, was charged after his DNA was matched to DNA found on the condom wrapper.

Rosenzweig told the judge he would probably seek to move the trial away from Russellville, where the case has been heavily publicized. McQuary said he would not oppose that change, and the judge and lawyers discussed Clarksville and Charleston as other possible sites for a trial.



http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=80257

[SaraSidle]

Glad to see them all up again. Hope you are all doing good and everyone had great Holidays! As always, prayer for Carol and thinking of Nona. Please pray for Joseph Putnam, he is a friend of the family and is going thru a mile stone of post tramatic stress due to the war. He is missing and we are all worried about his well being. Hopefully he will be found safe soon. Thanks in advance!

I am so sorry for Joseph upallnight. I worked with many soldiers who came back in a bad way. my prayers are with you. I am still angry with the court dates and delays on this case. just me. God Bless you. love sara

[Mommyto2]

I noticed that they said they may move it to Charleston or Clarksville. I don't think they will move it to Charleston since alot of the jury for KJ trial was from there. Thoughts?

[TJEddie]

According to an article on the Pine Bluff Commercial website, McQuary presented arguments against the results of the private psych exam being withheld from the prosecution. To paraphrase loosely, he seemed concerned that info on Dunn's mental status could have an impact on how the case/trial is handled, and should therefore be made available to all parties. The article did not mention how or if the judge ruled on his arguments.

Sorry for the loose paraphrasing from memory......the link has cycled off of the website's sidebar and I couldn't retrieve it.

[FDInLaw]

RUSSELLVILLE, Ark. -- A man charged with killing an Arkansas Tech student at her Russellville apartment wants a judge to allow him to have an independent medical examination. The ruling would come into play if 29-year-old Gary Dunn is convicted.

Dunn, of Dover, has pleaded not guilty to capital murder for the 2005 killing of Nona Dirksmeyer. A hearing is scheduled for Tuesday in Pope County Circuit Court in Russellville on Tuesday in advance of an April 13 trial.

Dunn's lawyers said an exam at the State Hospital would only be to determine whether Dunn is competent to be tried. They also note that prosecutors would have access to what Dunn says to examiners. Having the exam would enable defense lawyers to better defend Dunn if there is a penalty phase to determine whether he should be executed or given life in prison.
http://www.4029tv.com/news/18732522/detail.html


Not sure this is accurate. . . digging. :read:

[FDInLaw]

Special Prosecutor Jack McQuary told the court Tuesday that he will ask for the death penalty in the capitol murder trial of Gary Dunn. Dunn, 29, of Dover, pleaded not guilty to murder in the December 2005 death of 19-year-old Nona Dirksmeyer.
A pre-trial hearing was held before Circuit Judge Bill Pearson in Pope Country Circuit Court to address several motions by both the defense team and the prosecution.
A motion of contingency was filed by Dunn’s attorneys Jeff Rosenzweig and William O. James, Jr., both of Little Rock. Rosenzweig stated that the case was complicated because Kevin Jones had already stood trial and was found not guilty of the crime. Rosenzweig said he and James had just received several boxes of extensive discovery last week. Both sides said they had not received the transcripts from the Jones trial and the testimony of witnesses on these transcripts could prove beneficial to both sides. It was noted the transcripts will not be made available until possibly the end of March.
Rosenzweig also asked for funds for a mental examination of Dunn. “We are not challenging his competency to stand trial or at the time of the death,” he said. “Our defense is that he did not do it.”
Rosenzweig said that a pre-trial deposition given by Dunn’s ill mother indicated something could have happened in his childhood to cause mental illness. Pearson granted the funds.
The defense also asked for funds for independent DNA testing on a condom wrapper which was found in Dirksmeyer’s apartment. http://www.eclassifiedsnetwork.com/content.aspx?IsHome=1&MemberID=1254&ID=1784&Module=Quickpage&SiteSearch=1 (taken from first link)

[TJEddie]

From a Debra Hale-Shelton article in today's ArDemGaz (by subscription only for now):

"Also Tuesday, Pearson granted a defense request for an independent mental evaluation and agreed defense attorneys do not have to divulge the findings to the prosecution unless they decide to make those findings an issue during the trial.

Rosenzweig said he is not arguing that Dunn is mentally incompetent to stand trial. Rather, Rosenzweig said, he wants to be prepared to present any mitigating factors in the sentencing phase of a trial should Dunn be convicted.

In Arkansas, capital murder is punishable by death or life in prison without parole.

Dunn’s seriously ill mother, who sat on the front row during the hearing and left with the help of a walker, has given a videotaped deposition in which she testified about some things in her son’s childhood that might be of interest, Rosenzweig said. He did not say what those things were.

The judge denied McQuary’s motion seeking a separate mental evaluation by the State Hospital. Rosenzweig said if the defense decides to use any findings from its independent evaluation, the state then would be entitled to its own evaluation.

Both sides agreed that the defense also could have an independent expert examine a condom wrapper found in Dirksmeyer’s apartment that authorities say links Dunn to the crime.

The judge said he would rule later on whether the defense mustshare those findings with the prosecution. The defense wants them kept privileged unless it opts to use them as evidence.

Rosenzweig indicated he realized he might have to seek other people’s DNA because the condom wrapper was handled during Jones’ trial. “We might have to file a motion for Mr. Gibbons’ DNA,” he said, referring to Prosecuting Attorney David Gibbons, who handled the Jones case."

[FDInLaw]

From a Debra Hale-Shelton article in today's ArDemGaz (by subscription only for now):

"Also Tuesday, Pearson granted a defense request for an independent mental evaluation and agreed defense attorneys do not have to divulge the findings to the prosecution unless they decide to make those findings an issue during the trial.

Rosenzweig said he is not arguing that Dunn is mentally incompetent to stand trial. Rather, Rosenzweig said, he wants to be prepared to present any mitigating factors in the sentencing phase of a trial should Dunn be convicted.

In Arkansas, capital murder is punishable by death or life in prison without parole.

Dunn’s seriously ill mother, who sat on the front row during the hearing and left with the help of a walker, has given a videotaped deposition in which she testified about some things in her son’s childhood that might be of interest, Rosenzweig said. He did not say what those things were.

The judge denied McQuary’s motion seeking a separate mental evaluation by the State Hospital. Rosenzweig said if the defense decides to use any findings from its independent evaluation, the state then would be entitled to its own evaluation.

Both sides agreed that the defense also could have an independent expert examine a condom wrapper found in Dirksmeyer’s apartment that authorities say links Dunn to the crime.

The judge said he would rule later on whether the defense mustshare those findings with the prosecution. The defense wants them kept privileged unless it opts to use them as evidence.

Rosenzweig indicated he realized he might have to seek other people’s DNA because the condom wrapper was handled during Jones’ trial. “We might have to file a motion for Mr. Gibbons’ DNA,” he said, referring to Prosecuting Attorney David Gibbons, who handled the Jones case." This makes me nervous. How do we know if they will remember who all touched it? The evidence has been compromised IMO.

[lorettalockhorn]

This makes me nervous. How do we know if they will remember who all touched it? The evidence has been compromised IMO.

I'd want to know who touched the wrapper, and the chain of custody. But I haven't seen any motions about anything being compromised (other than the wrapper) so maybe the defense isn't as concerned as I am.

[TJEddie]

Maybe I'm just overly suspicious, but it occurs to me that the mental health exam and condom wrapper issues presented by the defense are perfect set-ups for further trial delays. If the defense waits until the last minute to use the mental health exam at trial, time would then have to be allowed for the prosecution to examine it and possibly request and obtain an exam of their own. As for the condom wrapper, the time needed to ferret out, test and match various DNA samples could be astronomical. And once again, if the defense is allowed to keep that info private, the possibility exists of a last minute decision to use it at trial, thus forcing the prosecution to request additional time to process the info, obtain expert witnesses, etc.

Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that the condom wrapper is not the most crucial evidence pointing to Dunn's guilt. I suspect that much more was uncovered during the 7 month investigation by McQuary & Co., and I expect them to present a very solid case. But that's just me.

[lorettalockhorn]

Maybe I'm just overly suspicious, but it occurs to me that the mental health exam and condom wrapper issues presented by the defense are perfect set-ups for further trial delays. If the defense waits until the last minute to use the mental health exam at trial, time would then have to be allowed for the prosecution to examine it and possibly request and obtain an exam of their own. As for the condom wrapper, the time needed to ferret out, test and match various DNA samples could be astronomical. And once again, if the defense is allowed to keep that info private, the possibility exists of a last minute decision to use it at trial, thus forcing the prosecution to request additional time to process the info, obtain expert witnesses, etc.

Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that the condom wrapper is not the most crucial evidence pointing to Dunn's guilt. I suspect that much more was uncovered during the 7 month investigation by McQuary & Co., and I expect them to present a very solid case. But that's just me.

There's got to be more, and I hope you're exactly right.

[FDInLaw]

Maybe I'm just overly suspicious, but it occurs to me that the mental health exam and condom wrapper issues presented by the defense are perfect set-ups for further trial delays. If the defense waits until the last minute to use the mental health exam at trial, time would then have to be allowed for the prosecution to examine it and possibly request and obtain an exam of their own. As for the condom wrapper, the time needed to ferret out, test and match various DNA samples could be astronomical. And once again, if the defense is allowed to keep that info private, the possibility exists of a last minute decision to use it at trial, thus forcing the prosecution to request additional time to process the info, obtain expert witnesses, etc.

Just as an aside, my personal opinion is that the condom wrapper is not the most crucial evidence pointing to Dunn's guilt. I suspect that much more was uncovered during the 7 month investigation by McQuary & Co., and I expect them to present a very solid case. But that's just me.I sure hope you are right, because as it stands I'm still on the fence. It would be nice if this trial brought more answers than questions, unlike the last one.
:(

[jeremiads]

There's got to be more, and I hope you're exactly right.I'm incredibly skeptical that there will be much more physical evidence. I have a hard time understanding why they have to go into secrecy over this case like before, but haven't had any trouble feeding out the initial big link and being sure to point out his bad past.

I'm still just incredibly uncomfortable with this and I hope they bring out some slam-dunk evidence. But I think if they had that evidence, they wouldn't be shy about it and it would be in some sort of public document implicating Dunn, like the arrest documents.

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm incredibly skeptical that there will be much more physical evidence. I have a hard time understanding why they have to go into secrecy over this case like before, but haven't had any trouble feeding out the initial big link and being sure to point out his bad past.

I'm still just incredibly uncomfortable with this and I hope they bring out some slam-dunk evidence. But I think if they had that evidence, they wouldn't be shy about it and it would be in some sort of public document implicating Dunn, like the arrest documents.

Hey stranger! I for one am glad to see that no one is grandstanding and showboating this time around (as frustrating as it is!).

Something that really honked me off, is that the other day The Courier had an article; front page, above the fold, and just whose picture was featured besides Dunn and McQuary? Robbins, of course. Can that guy just go the hell away? At least until he testifies as to just exactly WTH he was sticking his nose into The State's business? And just whose DNA he collected surreptitiously?

[FDInLaw]

Hey stranger! I for one am glad to see that no one is grandstanding and showboating this time around (as frustrating as it is!).

Something that really honked me off, is that the other day The Courier had an article; front page, above the fold, and just whose picture was featured besides Dunn and McQuary? Robbins, of course. Can that guy just go the hell away? At least until he testifies as to just exactly WTH he was sticking his nose into The State's business? And just whose DNA he collected surreptitiously?Oh my, glad I wasn't eating anything. . . LMAO. . . funny. :hat:

You are right, no showboating this time around. Also, note that the number of asinine rumors have dwindled. Huh. Go figure! :rolleyes:

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh my, glad I wasn't eating anything. . . LMAO. . . funny. :hat:

You are right, no showboating this time around. Also, note that the number of asinine rumors have dwindled. Huh. Go figure! :rolleyes:

Robbins is like the Leonard Padilla of Pope County. LMAO

ETA to 'splain that it's frustrating to hear nothing at all.

[FDInLaw]

Robbins is like the Leonard Padilla of Pope County. LMAO

ETA to 'splain that it's frustrating to hear nothing at all.
Yikes. . . let's hope that Robbins never posses for pictures and signs autographs at a crime scene! :eek:

I still can't get over that! Not an ounce of class or decorum that one. Caylee's case is so heartbreaking I can't bare to follow it much. :(

[TJEddie]

Also from the ArDemGaz article referenced above:

"Special prosecutor Jack McQuary said he did not object to a change of venue for Gary Dunn, charged in the Dec. 15, 2005, slaying of Nona Dirksmeyer of Russellville.

The discussion occurred during a hearing before Pope County Circuit Judge Bill Pearson in which Pearson agreed to postpone the trial originally set for mid-April. Both defense and prosecution attorneys agreed they needed more time.

Pearson said he would set a date for the estimated two week trial after checking his schedule but indicated he didn’t want more postponements, saying, “It will be for a date certain.”

Sounds to me like the judge might be anticipating and trying to forestall any additional delay tactics.

[FDInLaw]

Also from the ArDemGaz article referenced above:

"Special prosecutor Jack McQuary said he did not object to a change of venue for Gary Dunn, charged in the Dec. 15, 2005, slaying of Nona Dirksmeyer of Russellville.

The discussion occurred during a hearing before Pope County Circuit Judge Bill Pearson in which Pearson agreed to postpone the trial originally set for mid-April. Both defense and prosecution attorneys agreed they needed more time.

Pearson said he would set a date for the estimated two week trial after checking his schedule but indicated he didn’t want more postponements, saying, “It will be for a date certain.”

Sounds to me like the judge might be anticipating and trying to forestall any additional delay tactics.Awesome. Good catch. I'm glad to hear this. :beer:

[lorettalockhorn]

Yikes. . . let's hope that Robbins never posses for pictures and signs autographs at a crime scene! :eek:

I still can't get over that! Not an ounce of class or decorum that one. Caylee's case is so heartbreaking I can't bare to follow it much. :(

Robbins probably pictures himself posing and signing outside death row. BLECHHH

Also from the ArDemGaz article referenced above:

"Special prosecutor Jack McQuary said he did not object to a change of venue for Gary Dunn, charged in the Dec. 15, 2005, slaying of Nona Dirksmeyer of Russellville.

The discussion occurred during a hearing before Pope County Circuit Judge Bill Pearson in which Pearson agreed to postpone the trial originally set for mid-April. Both defense and prosecution attorneys agreed they needed more time.

Pearson said he would set a date for the estimated two week trial after checking his schedule but indicated he didn’t want more postponements, saying, “It will be for a date certain.”

Sounds to me like the judge might be anticipating and trying to forestall any additional delay tactics.

Thanks Gary Busey! Our Gazette didn't show up until this afternoon and I still haven't read it.

[Mommyto2]

I'd want to know who touched the wrapper, and the chain of custody. But I haven't seen any motions about anything being compromised (other than the wrapper) so maybe the defense isn't as concerned as I am

Sorry I don't know how to copy it from the original :shrug:

But anyways, Judge Pearson is a new judge. He was a public and private defense attorney before jan 09. He is getting a great reputation so far. He doesn't seem to do continuances or want to delay things too much. So if that helps you guys at all.
Oh and the reason I copied that above is I was wondering what kind of DNA was it. I heard it was midochondrial(sp) DNA. Does that not mean that others would have the same? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

[lorettalockhorn]

I'd want to know who touched the wrapper, and the chain of custody. But I haven't seen any motions about anything being compromised (other than the wrapper) so maybe the defense isn't as concerned as I am

Sorry I don't know how to copy it from the original :shrug:

But anyways, Judge Pearson is a new judge. He was a public and private defense attorney before jan 09. He is getting a great reputation so far. He doesn't seem to do continuances or want to delay things too much. So if that helps you guys at all.
Oh and the reason I copied that above is I was wondering what kind of DNA was it. I heard it was midochondrial(sp) DNA. Does that not mean that others would have the same? Forgive me if I'm wrong.

I'm clueless about Pearson and his record & about the DNA type. :shrug:

But I am concerned that any Tom, Dick or Harry can pick up my cigarette butt and use it to implicate me in a crime three years after the fact.

[Mommyto2]

Okay I will try to find the article in the Courier but I believe they said it was mitochondrial DNA. Here is the difference.
Human mtDNA can also be used to identify individuals.[5] Forensic laboratories occasionally use mtDNA comparison to identify human remains, and especially to identify older unidentified skeletal remains. Although unlike nuclear DNA mtDNA is not specific to one individual, it can be used in combination with other evidence (anthropological evidence, circumstantial evidence, and the like) to establish identification

If that's true then other people who touched the condom will have to be ruled out too. Anyone that knew Nona would have to be ruled out.

Edit to add: Oops already see this discussion has been going on for awhile. I think the prosecution will think that people will look at his past history, he's on parole for attacking a girl, living next to Nona and think he is an easy target. I think it's NOT nuclear but I think they are believing that all the little things will add up to a conviction. It's a small town-stuff gets leaked and I don't think they have much more than this. Sorry if I'm wrong. But KJ failed the poly miserably. I think Gibbons looked at Dunn and went after KJ bc that's who killed Nona.

[FDInLaw]

Okay I will try to find the article in the Courier but I believe they said it was mitochondrial DNA. Here is the difference.
Human mtDNA can also be used to identify individuals.[5] Forensic laboratories occasionally use mtDNA comparison to identify human remains, and especially to identify older unidentified skeletal remains. Although unlike nuclear DNA mtDNA is not specific to one individual, it can be used in combination with other evidence (anthropological evidence, circumstantial evidence, and the like) to establish identification

If that's true then other people who touched the condom will have to be ruled out too. Anyone that knew Nona would have to be ruled out.

Edit to add: Oops already see this discussion has been going on for awhile. I think the prosecution will think that people will look at his past history, he's on parole for attacking a girl, living next to Nona and think he is an easy target. I think it's NOT nuclear but I think they are believing that all the little things will add up to a conviction. It's a small town-stuff gets leaked and I don't think they have much more than this. Sorry if I'm wrong. But KJ failed the poly miserably. I think Gibbons looked at Dunn and went after KJ bc that's who killed Nona.This topic was discussed on the main thread, but is worth another look at. I just posted the following in our "forensic science study room" (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=291213)

Over the past few years, nuclear DNA analysis has played a pivotal role in the adjudication of several important cases, thereby garnering much attention from the media. However, mtDNA analysis can offer the law enforcement community some equally noteworthy assistance in solving crimes.

Mitochondrial DNA differs from nuclear DNA in its location, its quantity in the cell, its mode of inheritance, and its sequence. Mitochondrial DNA is located in structures, called mitochondria, found in the outer layer of the cell, much like the egg white. While the nucleus of the cell contains two copies of nuclear DNA, cells may contain hundreds of mitochondria, each of which may contain several copies of mtDNA. Thus, mtDNA has a greater copy number than nuclear DNA. This characteristic of mtDNA proves useful in situations where the amount of sample is very limited. Typical sources of evidence suitable for mtDNA analysis include hairs without tissue, bones, and teeth.

In humans, individuals inherit mitochondrial DNA strictly from their mothers. (3) Thus, the mtDNA sequences obtained from maternally related individuals, such as a brother and a sister or a mother and a daughter, will exactly match each other in the absence of a mutation. This characteristic of mtDNA is advantageous in missing person cases as any maternal relative of the missing individual can supply reference samples. However, mtDNA analysis is limited when compared with nuclear DNA analysis in that it cannot distinguish between individuals of the same maternal lineage or individuals who have the same mtDNA sequence by chance.

Given the many different circumstances that can surround a case, sometimes advantages exist in analyzing mtDNA over nuclear DNA for forensic purposes. First, the location and structure of mtDNA protect it from degradation when exposed to the environment. Mitochondrial DNA is buried deep within the cell and has a circular structure, which protects it from deterioration. Also, DNA is bound and protected by a substance, called hydroxyapatite, found in teeth and bones. Second, the high copy number of mtDNA gives the forensic scientist a better chance of locating and amplifying a piece of undergraded DNA in a sample. Finally, the maternal inheritance of mtDNA can prove advantageous in cases involving missing persons, even though this fact also makes it less discriminating than nuclear DNA because any person who is a member of the same maternal lineage will have the same mtDNA sequence. Mitochondrial DNA also is highly variable between unrelated individuals. In fact, the scientific community has not yet seen all o f the variation that exists between human mtDNA sequences.


http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_8_71/ai_90819640

Interesting stuff! Note the reference to teeth!!! One way to open a condom wrapper.

[Mommyto2]

Okay this is taken from FDinLaw(who by the way is another one from AR which is just weird how many there are of us on here)
Therefore, barring a mutation, an individual's mother, siblings, as well as all other maternally-related family members will have identical mtDNA sequences. As a result, forensic comparisons can be made using a reference sample from any maternal relative, even if the unknown and reference sample are separated by many generations.
Okay, so Dover/Russellville are pretty small. It would be interesting to see Gary's geneology and see who all he is related to. Also, I know this question was asked before but how will they know who touched it if it is this type of DNA. Wouldn't they have to go all the way back to the manufactor because someone there had to touch it to package it.
Another point-not DNA- is wouldn't they have video tape at Wal-Mart/Gas station of either GD or KJ buying a condom. Why did this never come up? I know it wouldn't prove it for sure but the same brand, close to the same day, would be pretty suspicious. Again, forgive me if this has already been brought up.

[FDInLaw]

Okay this is taken from FDinLaw(who by the way is another one from AR which is just weird how many there are of us on here)
Therefore, barring a mutation, an individual's mother, siblings, as well as all other maternally-related family members will have identical mtDNA sequences. As a result, forensic comparisons can be made using a reference sample from any maternal relative, even if the unknown and reference sample are separated by many generations.
Okay, so Dover/Russellville are pretty small. It would be interesting to see Gary's geneology and see who all he is related to. Also, I know this question was asked before but how will they know who touched it if it is this type of DNA. Wouldn't they have to go all the way back to the manufactor because someone there had to touch it to package it.
Another point-not DNA- is wouldn't they have video tape at Wal-Mart/Gas station of either GD or KJ buying a condom. Why did this never come up? I know it wouldn't prove it for sure but the same brand, close to the same day, would be pretty suspicious. Again, forgive me if this has already been brought up.

From my link: "Mitochondrial DNA also is highly variable between unrelated individuals." This builds my confidence. There are a more articles on this subject in the study room. I'm glad this topic came up again, the research is helpful, and as a result if feel more comfortable with this dna evidence. DNA from both Dunn and Nona was found on the wrapper. This is HUGE to me, but the question remains, was it placed there during the murder? Dunn claimed to have never been in her apartment, but was this because he was married at the time? A question still hangs over this for me. As Eddie brings up, I sure hope there is more physical evidence. MOO

[Amy]

Okay this is taken from FDinLaw(who by the way is another one from AR which is just weird how many there are of us on here)
Therefore, barring a mutation, an individual's mother, siblings, as well as all other maternally-related family members will have identical mtDNA sequences. As a result, forensic comparisons can be made using a reference sample from any maternal relative, even if the unknown and reference sample are separated by many generations.
Okay, so Dover/Russellville are pretty small. It would be interesting to see Gary's geneology and see who all he is related to. Also, I know this question was asked before but how will they know who touched it if it is this type of DNA. Wouldn't they have to go all the way back to the manufactor because someone there had to touch it to package it.
Another point-not DNA- is wouldn't they have video tape at Wal-Mart/Gas station of either GD or KJ buying a condom. Why did this never come up? I know it wouldn't prove it for sure but the same brand, close to the same day, would be pretty suspicious. Again, forgive me if this has already been brought up.

I watch "How it's Made" and figure it could be very likely that no human hands would be needed for the manufacturing and packaging of condoms. Not that I have seen one on condoms in particular, but there are many things made that there is no human contact.

The condom could have been purchased weeks, months, prior to the murder--and maybe in Little Rock or Fayetteville--anywhere. Maybe even purchased by someone other than Dunn like a roommate, or a friend. So, having someone on tape purchasing them would be a long shot, IMO.

[iluvmua]

When the Trial gets started, Do you think Gary's Defense team will bring up Kevin Jones and try to blame the murder on him?

[The R]

Okay I will try to find the article in the Courier but I believe they said it was mitochondrial DNA. Here is the difference.
Human mtDNA can also be used to identify individuals.[5] Forensic laboratories occasionally use mtDNA comparison to identify human remains, and especially to identify older unidentified skeletal remains. Although unlike nuclear DNA mtDNA is not specific to one individual, it can be used in combination with other evidence (anthropological evidence, circumstantial evidence, and the like) to establish identification

If that's true then other people who touched the condom will have to be ruled out too. Anyone that knew Nona would have to be ruled out.

Edit to add: Oops already see this discussion has been going on for awhile. I think the prosecution will think that people will look at his past history, he's on parole for attacking a girl, living next to Nona and think he is an easy target. I think it's NOT nuclear but I think they are believing that all the little things will add up to a conviction. It's a small town-stuff gets leaked and I don't think they have much more than this. Sorry if I'm wrong. But KJ failed the poly miserably. I think Gibbons looked at Dunn and went after KJ bc that's who killed Nona.



I think you are correct. This history and living proximity would also be pretty good evidence IMO.

I'm having trouble with why Dunn would use a condom to start with, or if he's guilty, how the sequence of events went down at the crime scene.
Considering the fight/struggle she obviously didn't intend to consent. So this means Dunn would've gone to the trouble of using a condom after he'd assaulted her? If so, he is a really strange bird for sure; a real wacko. But it seems attacking Nona and then trying to have sex with her would very much be in line with what I read about his earlier committed assault.......just think about the similarities?

I still think a plea bargain is possible.


ALLMO,
R

[FDInLaw]

When the Trial gets started, Do you think Gary's Defense team will bring up Kevin Jones and try to blame the murder on him?

Depends, will going after Kevin be their best shot at reasonable doubt? Personally, I expect them to. After all, why waste all the work the State has already done and the bloody palm print? Kevin will have to take the stand as one that found the body (I'm guessing). . . he might end up being the Troy York this time around. Sad, if he is in fact innocent.

MOO

[FDInLaw]

Other than Kevin Jones, does anyone have any thoughts about whom the defense might cast suspicion??? Last trial, I was caught of guard.

[lorettalockhorn]

Depends, will going after Kevin be their best shot at reasonable doubt? Personally, I expect them to. After all, why waste all the work the State has already done and the bloody palm print? Kevin will have to take the stand as one that found the body (I'm guessing). . . he might end up being the Troy York this time around. Sad, if he is in fact innocent.

MOO

I don't see how the defense can't put Kevin on the stand, and I'll be shocked and disappointed if she doesn't. Who knows? Maybe during the time period that Kevin was in the area, before he went home the eve of Nona's murder, he was spying on her and saw something that needs to be testified to. Maybe the defense will ask Kevin if he was in the area of Mrs. Chenoweth's shed the day of Nona's murder.

[lorettalockhorn]

Other than Kevin Jones, does anyone have any thoughts about whom the defense might cast suspicion??? Last trial, I was caught of guard.

Wasn't the jury in Jones' trial wanting to investigate one of Nona's classmates? I guess he's a possibility, along with the usual suspects that Kevin's supporters wanted to pin the murder on.

[FDInLaw]

Wasn't the jury in Jones' trial wanting to investigate one of Nona's classmates? I guess he's a possibility, along with the usual suspects that Kevin's supporters wanted to pin the murder on.

Well, now we are dealing with a different cast of characters, hard to tell whom they will deem suspicious IMO. Some of the people that have been torn to shreds were victims of malice, 'cause quite frankly, there never was any real evidence that they were involved. For instance, Bubba Turner, I bet someone was just trying to get at him or his Mother intentionally. Just vicious rumors based on no actual evidence. All it took for York to be on the hot seat was a phone message and current relationship with the victim. NO physical evidence put him at the scene (IIRC).

[lorettalockhorn]

Well, now we are dealing with a different cast of characters, hard to tell whom they will deem suspicious IMO. Some of the people that have been torn to shreds were victims of malice, 'cause quite frankly, there never was any real evidence that they were involved. For instance, Bubba Turner, I bet someone was just trying to get at him or his Mother intentionally. Just vicious rumors based on no actual evidence. All it took for York to be on the hot seat was a phone message and current relationship with the victim. NO physical evidence put him at the scene (IIRC).

Don't know much about Dunn or his group of friends; maybe when we get closer to trial we'll hear more if his bunch is part of the myspace, facebook, etc. crowd. The reason I mentioned the classmate, is (without knowing), that it would seem that the jury noticed something in the phone records that made them suspicious. And it seems like people were plenty suspicious of York because of time unaccounted for and the fact that he brought an attorney with his to be questioned.

[FDInLaw]

Wasn't the jury in Jones' trial wanting to investigate one of Nona's classmates? I guess he's a possibility, along with the usual suspects that Kevin's supporters wanted to pin the murder on.

IIRC Jared Berry was the person the jury asked about. . . I'm digging!

Bailey testified that another classmate, JARED BERRY, told her of Dirksmeyer’s death some time between 7 and 10 p.m. on Dec. 15.

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=jared%20berry


:read:

[lorettalockhorn]

IIRC Jared Berry was the person the jury asked about. . . I'm digging!

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=jared%20berry


:read:

Thanks! All I could remember was that his initial was J, like so many others. :seeya:

[The R]

I don't see how the defense can't put Kevin on the stand, and I'll be shocked and disappointed if she doesn't. Who knows? Maybe during the time period that Kevin was in the area, before he went home the eve of Nona's murder, he was spying on her and saw something that needs to be testified to. Maybe the defense will ask Kevin if he was in the area of Mrs. Chenoweth's shed the day of Nona's murder.


I imagine the prosecution will have plenty questions for ol' KJ to answer as well.

[lorettalockhorn]

I imagine the prosecution will have plenty questions for ol' KJ to answer as well.

Oh, for sure! And it would almost be worth getting dressed to go and watch him answer.

[Mommyto2]

First, in defense of the people who thought it was Bubba Turner. If my memory serves me right he was arrested soon after Nona's murder. It got out. Everyone was waiting for someone to be arrested for her murder. He got arrested for drugs( if my memory is still correct) and that's FOI so it got out. Everyone thought it could be for her murder. This was actually going on a few weeks before he was even arrested. The theory was that he had sold drugs to KJ and KJ didn't pay up like he was suppose to so he went to Nona's apartment looking for him and BT and Nona got into it. Anyways that's the theory I heard. Plus since BT is a felon he is/was an easy target.
Second, along with KJ I think they will go after other people on probation/parole that lived in that apartment complex. Probably many of them have long histories. You also have to go with sex offenders now that they are saying sexual assualt did happen( which btw- I think is horrible what Carol is having to go through now-thinking she had been violated again) I believe that there was a sex offender living in Shadow Lake appts not to far from Inglewood appts.
So, you go after the most likely suspects(who btw I don't think will be BT, he may have been targeted bc of his mom but I think people were just looking for an explanation to why this young lady was killed but the majority who heard this theory thought KJ did it still and still do)

[FDInLaw]

First, in defense of the people who thought it was Bubba Turner. If my memory serves me right he was arrested soon after Nona's murder. It got out. Everyone was waiting for someone to be arrested for her murder. He got arrested for drugs( if my memory is still correct) and that's FOI so it got out. Everyone thought it could be for her murder. This was actually going on a few weeks before he was even arrested. The theory was that he had sold drugs to KJ and KJ didn't pay up like he was suppose to so he went to Nona's apartment looking for him and BT and Nona got into it. Anyways that's the theory I heard. Plus since BT is a felon he is/was an easy target.
Second, along with KJ I think they will go after other people on probation/parole that lived in that apartment complex. Probably many of them have long histories. You also have to go with sex offenders now that they are saying sexual assualt did happen( which btw- I think is horrible what Carol is having to go through now-thinking she had been violated again) I believe that there was a sex offender living in Shadow Lake appts not to far from Inglewood appts.
So, you go after the most likely suspects(who btw I don't think will be BT, he may have been targeted bc of his mom but I think people were just looking for an explanation to why this young lady was killed but the majority who heard this theory thought KJ did it still and still do)
Bubba lived and worked in NWAR.


Funny how the rumors involved Kevin drug side but we are all suppose to believe he is a choir boy. Old topic. . . now we have Dunn to focus in on.

[TJEddie]

Hopefully the second investigation has been thorough enough and the new case will be solid enough that there won't be room for much speculation about other possible suspects. Unfortunately, that was not the case with the first investigation. (IMO, of course.)

[sololobo]

I wonder if the fingerprint found on the base of the lamp will play any part? Chief Bacon said it was suitable for comparison and the State Crime Lab said it wasn't. There are many differing theories on print comparison.

[TJEddie]

Hola, solo. I've wondered about that fingerprint on the "business end" of the alleged murder weapon as well. If an arguably valid match could be made, seems to me that would be pretty strong contributing evidence. I've also wondered about the possibility of testimony from Dunn's ex-wife, the woman he was married to and shared an apartment with at the time of the murder. I wonder what, if anything, she might have to contribute.

[FDInLaw]

If they found Dunn's prints on the lamp PERIOD. . . I'd say they have a slam dunk. MOO

[lorettalockhorn]

I wonder if the fingerprint found on the base of the lamp will play any part? Chief Bacon said it was suitable for comparison and the State Crime Lab said it wasn't. There are many differing theories on print comparison.

Good question/point.

[Amy]

Hola, solo. I've wondered about that fingerprint on the "business end" of the alleged murder weapon as well. If an arguably valid match could be made, seems to me that would be pretty strong contributing evidence. I've also wondered about the possibility of testimony from Dunn's ex-wife, the woman he was married to and shared an apartment with at the time of the murder. I wonder what, if anything, she might have to contribute.

She won't have to testify to anything that occured during their marriage, tho. I used to think it was they can't be FORCED to testify, but there was a case where the ex-wife wasn't ALLOWED to testify about anything that she knew of, saw, heard or was told by her husband during the marriage. She was able to testify about related stuff that occured after the marriage was disolved, but that was all. This case was in I think Nevada?

[jeremiads]

First, in defense of the people who thought it was Bubba Turner.I find it morbidly amusing that baseless rumor and speculation is supposed to be a proper defense to smearing completely innocent people by connecting them to the murder.

[FDInLaw]

I find it morbidly amusing that baseless rumor and speculation is supposed to be a proper defense to smearing completely innocent people by connecting them to the murder.It's a head shaker. . . Bubba had no personal connection to Nona what so ever. Wasn't even in town. I agree with you, there was a malicious root to most of the rumors (IMO).

It seems that Dunn's supporters have taken a higher road so far from what I can tell. Good for them. :beer:

[Mommyto2]

I probably shouldn't have said in defense of those people. I was just trying to tell you being from the town what others were saying. But also everyone says that he was living in NWAR. Are you guys sure about that because wasn't he arrested for drugs and put on probation? Anyways I am one that believes that KJ did it.
But back to Dunn's defense like I was saying in a PP post they should go after other parolees and probationers in that area. Especially RSO
And sorry if I upset anyone about Turner-just trying to explain what went on. It was also on the radio around that time and people just believed it.

[TJEddie]

She won't have to testify to anything that occured during their marriage, tho. I used to think it was they can't be FORCED to testify, but there was a case where the ex-wife wasn't ALLOWED to testify about anything that she knew of, saw, heard or was told by her husband during the marriage. She was able to testify about related stuff that occured after the marriage was disolved, but that was all. This case was in I think Nevada?

If my info is still current, Arkansas and Nevada differ on their spousal privilege laws. As I understand it, confidential communications between spouses are privileged in all states. However, a spouse's freedom/responsibility to testify to other evidence such as observations, overheard conversations, etc. is treated differently among the states. (See footnote 9 in Trammel vs US: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=445&invol=40#t9)

Also of interest......Unless I'm outdated, it appears that spousal information provided to authorities prior to the beginning of criminal proceedings is not considered privileged, even if it falls under confidential communications. (See #5 & 6: http://courts.state.ar.us/opinions/1997b/971106/cr97-586.txt)

Of course anything said or seen after a divorce would not be considered privileged.

(All info provided compliments of Google.....take it for what it's worth.)

[sololobo]

Only one print was found on the lamp which is odd. Was the lamp wiped down to remove prints or was this the only viable print on the lamp? The killer must have had blood on his hands as evidenced by the blood smear on the sliding door blinds and elsewhere. But this was not a bloody print. Did the killer wash his hands and then wiped the lamp down, leaving a print in the process? If the killer lived in the complex, could he have left in a panic and then returned to clean up?

[Amy]

Only one print was found on the lamp which is odd. Was the lamp wiped down to remove prints or was this the only viable print on the lamp? The killer must have had blood on his hands as evidenced by the blood smear on the sliding door blinds and elsewhere. But this was not a bloody print. Did the killer wash his hands and then wiped the lamp down, leaving a print in the process? If the killer lived in the complex, could he have left in a panic and then returned to clean up?

I tho't the print on the lamp WAS bloody--hence the "tacky" or not description of the print. The contention that KJ had his hands in the blood around Nona and THEN touched the lamp, leaving the bloody print. @ least, that was always the way I understood it.

[TJEddie]

IIRC, the pole lamp was broken into 3 pieces. Kevin's bloody palm print was found on the top part (the light bulb.) According to testimony from James Bacon, two latent prints were found on the bottom part (the lower pole and the lamp base.) Det. Frost testified that carpet indentations showed that the bloodied lamp base had not been moved from where it initially struck the carpet, bounced once, and then came to rest. IMO, this argues against the lamp base having been handled and/or wiped clean after the attack.

I wonder if the middle part of the lamp pole was examined for prints. It seems to me that's the most likely place to grab when reaching to use it as a weapon.

Link to info on testimony: http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=Dirksmeyer

[Amy]

IIRC, the pole lamp was broken into 3 pieces. Kevin's bloody palm print was found on the top part (the light bulb.) According to testimony from James Bacon, two latent prints were found on the bottom part (the lower pole and the lamp base.) Det. Frost testified that carpet indentations showed that the bloodied lamp base had not been moved from where it initially struck the carpet, bounced once, and then came to rest. IMO, this argues against the lamp base having been handled and/or wiped clean after the attack.

I wonder if the middle part of the lamp pole was examined for prints. It seems to me that's the most likely place to grab when reaching to use it as a weapon.

Link to info on testimony: http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=Dirksmeyer

Thanks for the info.

[TJEddie]

IIRC, the pole lamp was broken into 3 pieces. Kevin's bloody palm print was found on the top part (the light bulb.) According to testimony from James Bacon, two latent prints were found on the bottom part (the lower pole and the lamp base.) Det. Frost testified that carpet indentations showed that the bloodied lamp base had not been moved from where it initially struck the carpet, bounced once, and then came to rest. IMO, this argues against the lamp base having been handled and/or wiped clean after the attack.

I wonder if the middle part of the lamp pole was examined for prints. It seems to me that's the most likely place to grab when reaching to use it as a weapon.

Link to info on testimony: http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15414&Search=Dirksmeyer

Responding to myself here, but this is for you, solo......

It occurs to me that what Frost interpreted as a bounce mark on the carpet could have actually been where the lamp base initially rested. If it was later wiped down, it could have inadvertently been placed a few inches away in the second position. It does seem to me that if someone went to the trouble of trying to remove prints, they would have done a better job......but who knows?

As for coming back to the crime scene after the fact.....I think it's possible but very risky, especially in such a small complex with apparently observant neighbors. Also, if a second trip was made to clean up the crime scene, why not just remove the murder weapon altogether?

[Mommyto2]

How many people think that he will try to take a plea. I do not think he will. Dunn admitted to attacking the girl at the trail but blamed her. If he did kill Nona and admit to it I believe he will still take it to trial. His defense then would probably try to say that Dunn and her were intimate and that Nona was trying to break up with him and he wouldn't leave so she hit him and so he hit her again and didn't mean to kill her.

[FDInLaw]

How many people think that he will try to take a plea. I do not think he will. Dunn admitted to attacking the girl at the trail but blamed her. If he did kill Nona and admit to it I believe he will still take it to trial. His defense then would probably try to say that Dunn and her were intimate and that Nona was trying to break up with him and he wouldn't leave so she hit him and so he hit her again and didn't mean to kill her.Hard to say, IMO, since we do not know how tight the case is against Dunn. Unlike last time around, we do not even have a witness list to comb over (which is probably good for the case). I have no clue at this point. It sounds like both sides are still waiting for info from the last trial. From that the defense should know what kind of shot they have at reasonable doubt. MOO

[FDInLaw]

I wonder if the fingerprint found on the base of the lamp will play any part? Chief Bacon said it was suitable for comparison and the State Crime Lab said it wasn't. There are many differing theories on print comparison.

Hola, solo. I've wondered about that fingerprint on the "business end" of the alleged murder weapon as well. If an arguably valid match could be made, seems to me that would be pretty strong contributing evidence. I've also wondered about the possibility of testimony from Dunn's ex-wife, the woman he was married to and shared an apartment with at the time of the murder. I wonder what, if anything, she might have to contribute.
This print was not in blood was it? Trying to remember. . .

If not, it could have been placed there at anytime depending on the owner. Remember, Nona's prints were not taken. . . it could even be hers. I'm guessing that the new PA would have had it Dunn's prints checked.

[FDInLaw]

Bristow: Yeah. The EMT said the lamp was within a foot of the body.

As they poked around, said the lawyers, they kept finding odd things about the investigation conducted by that first time homicide detective, Mark Frost…

Bristow: The only area that was fingerprinted was the area around the body, there was—blood near the front door, there was blood on the Venetian blinds—an empty condom wrapper a short distance from the body. The police go upstairs to see if that’s been flushed, do not fingerprint the flush handle at the commode, don’t DNA that, don’t DNA anything up there. There was nothing done except just in the area around the body.

Nor was that bloody palm print the only evidence on the lamp whose heavy base was used to kill Nona. Turned out police had lifted some fingerprints from the base of that lamp, too...

Kenny Johnson: And the prints that were on the business end of the murder weapon, the rod and base, were not Kevin Jones’ prints.

Morrison: They were some unidentified person?

Defense: Some unidentified.
Might have been DNA. There, and other places, too... but..

Johnson: None of that was done. None of that was done. We did it. We tried. We found the DNA. We sent the prophylactic wrapper off to a lab and they found the DNA. It was like it didn’t matter. The DNA was some other male’s.






http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24433365/page/5/

[TJEddie]

This print was not in blood was it? Trying to remember. . .

If not, it could have been placed there at anytime depending on the owner. Remember, Nona's prints were not taken. . . it could even be hers. I'm guessing that the new PA would have had it Dunn's prints checked.

IIRC, the 2 prints on the base of the lamp were always described as latent prints. I don't recall there ever being any mention of them having been made in blood.

Another thing I don't recall ever having been mentioned......were the 2 prints matching or were they from 2 different sources?

As an aside, I wonder if the case against Dunn will rely as heavily on forensics as the previous case. Historically, lots of cases have been solved and successfully tried without them. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what McQuary & Co. managed to come up with......working 2+ years after the fact and having only a shoddy (IMO) first investigation to build from.

[lorettalockhorn]

How many people think that he will try to take a plea. I do not think he will. Dunn admitted to attacking the girl at the trail but blamed her. If he did kill Nona and admit to it I believe he will still take it to trial. His defense then would probably try to say that Dunn and her were intimate and that Nona was trying to break up with him and he wouldn't leave so she hit him and so he hit her again and didn't mean to kill her.

Dunn didn't testify in the Bona Dea trial, did his attorney state this in court? I have seen people claiming to be relatives of his claim on other boards that Dunn and the Bona Dea victim had a relationship that he chose not to elaborate on. Did I miss (or forget) something?

[sololobo]

How many people think that he will try to take a plea. I do not think he will. Dunn admitted to attacking the girl at the trail but blamed her. If he did kill Nona and admit to it I believe he will still take it to trial. His defense then would probably try to say that Dunn and her were intimate and that Nona was trying to break up with him and he wouldn't leave so she hit him and so he hit her again and didn't mean to kill her.


The ferocity and duration of the attack denotes cruel intent. He would be convicted. No lawyer can sugar coat this. A plea bargain would be a better deal for him under these circumstances.

[sololobo]

How could Dunn gain entrance into Nona's apartment if he did not know her as he claimed? Perhaps the cracked door jamb will be a factor in this trial. Could he have retrieved something from her trash in the dumpster and used it as a pretense to knock on her door claiming to have found it in the parking lot? Was the greeting card new or was it older and may have been in her trash?

[sololobo]

Responding to myself here, but this is for you, solo......

It occurs to me that what Frost interpreted as a bounce mark on the carpet could have actually been where the lamp base initially rested. If it was later wiped down, it could have inadvertently been placed a few inches away in the second position. It does seem to me that if someone went to the trouble of trying to remove prints, they would have done a better job......but who knows?

As for coming back to the crime scene after the fact.....I think it's possible but very risky, especially in such a small complex with apparently observant neighbors. Also, if a second trip was made to clean up the crime scene, why not just remove the murder weapon altogether?

The wet bathtub observed by Frost you mentioned in a previous post puzzles me.

[FDInLaw]

The ferocity and duration of the attack denotes cruel intent. He would be convicted. No lawyer can sugar coat this. A plea bargain would be a better deal for him under these circumstances.So, Dunn's history and dna on the condom wrapper is enough for a conviction in your opinion? The State still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Dunn was behind this attack. I'm not sure a plea bargain is such a good idea.

MOO

[sololobo]

So, Dunn's history and dna on the condom wrapper is enough for a conviction in your opinion? The State still has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Dunn was behind this attack. I'm not sure a plea bargain is such a good idea.

MOO

If he admitted killing her as Mommyto2 postulated, a plea bargain would be his best bet.

[lorettalockhorn]

If he admitted killing her as Mommyto2 postulated, a plea bargain would be his best bet.

WAIT! Where/when did he admit to anything? Help a girl out!

[FDInLaw]

How many people think that he will try to take a plea. I do not think he will. Dunn admitted to attacking the girl at the trail but blamed her. If he did kill Nona and admit to it I believe he will still take it to trial. His defense then would probably try to say that Dunn and her were intimate and that Nona was trying to break up with him and he wouldn't leave so she hit him and so he hit her again and didn't mean to kill her.

If he admitted killing her as Mommyto2 postulated, a plea bargain would be his best bet.

BUT, Dunn hasn't admitted to anything (that we know of). . . . and, why on God's green earth would he??? :shrug: Seems like a dumb move to me unless it is part of a plea bargain (and certainly NOT before one).

MOO

[Mommyto2]

BUT, Dunn hasn't admitted to anything (that we know of). . . . and, why on God's green earth would he??? :shrug: Seems like a dumb move to me unless it is part of a plea bargain (and certainly NOT before one).

MOO

Lol. Well I don't know if he's admitted to anything in this case. But in the previous case I thought he did. I'm still trying to find an article. If I can't find it I will go to the PC Courthouse and look in there unless it's under a gag order.
People like Gary Dunn usually play that they are the victim. Whenever they are faced with facts they will blame the actually victim. This is my theory IF GD did it which I don't think he did. (okay unless your like CA who is just a socio/psychopath and won't admitt to anything) I was just tying to throw that out there if I'm correct about what happened in the Bona Dea.
Another point is that GD was convicted of 2nd degree battery by a jury but Gibbons wanted Attempted Murder. They looked at GD back then. Do you not think if Gibbons thought for one second that GD was guilty of Nona's murder then he would push that. Gibbons is a smart man and he had it right.

[sololobo]

BUT, Dunn hasn't admitted to anything (that we know of). . . . and, why on God's green earth would he??? :shrug: Seems like a dumb move to me unless it is part of a plea bargain (and certainly NOT before one).

MOO

Indeed it would be. If he is going to admit killing her, for whatever reason, he should do so in a plea bargain, not before a vengeful jury.

[FDInLaw]

Indeed it would be. If he is going to admit killing her, for whatever reason, he should do so in a plea bargain, not before a vengeful jury.Or, any jury for that matter! LOL.

[Mommyto2]

Or, any jury for that matter! LOL.

Well I agree but we aren't dealing with the smartest man alive. He could have easily said something to one of the cops when they arrested him and said we have your DNA. The cops knowing the previous case could have said something that made GD out to be the victim to get a confession and blame Nona for what happened. This is obviously just a theory but in my job this is usually what we have to do to get them to confess to something. Blame everyone else but them and they will come clean.

[FDInLaw]

Well I agree but we aren't dealing with the smartest man alive. He could have easily said something to one of the cops when they arrested him and said we have your DNA. The cops knowing the previous case could have said something that made GD out to be the victim to get a confession and blame Nona for what happened. This is obviously just a theory but in my job this is usually what we have to do to get them to confess to something. Blame everyone else but them and they will come clean.

What line of work are you in??? Your nic suggests that you are a mother, and I know from personal experience that this approach works on kids, but do you use it in a professional setting as well?

Do we know Dunn's IQ???

[lorettalockhorn]

Lol. Well I don't know if he's admitted to anything in this case. But in the previous case I thought he did. I'm still trying to find an article. If I can't find it I will go to the PC Courthouse and look in there unless it's under a gag order.
People like Gary Dunn usually play that they are the victim. Whenever they are faced with facts they will blame the actually victim. This is my theory IF GD did it which I don't think he did. (okay unless your like CA who is just a socio/psychopath and won't admitt to anything) I was just tying to throw that out there if I'm correct about what happened in the Bona Dea.
Another point is that GD was convicted of 2nd degree battery by a jury but Gibbons wanted Attempted Murder. They looked at GD back then. Do you not think if Gibbons thought for one second that GD was guilty of Nona's murder then he would push that. Gibbons is a smart man and he had it right.

The Bona Dea records should not be sealed for any reason should they? Dunn didn't testify, and I don't remember from The Courier articles that Seth Irwin acknoweldge Dunn's guilt at any time. But I do remember talk on other boards by supposed relatives that Dunn and the victim had a relationship. Let us know if you find that Dunn admitted the Bona Dea attack.

During the first investigation, I believe that Mrs. Chenoweth alibied Dunn for the day of Nona's murder. It seems like that alibi has now come into question. Makes me somewhat surprised if KJ's defense knew anything about Dunn being questioned (and his criminal history) that they didn't drag him into the fray to establish reasonable doubt instead of slandering and libeling Jeremy Martin.

[Mommyto2]

What line of work are you in??? Your nic suggests that you are a mother, and I know from personal experience that this approach works on kids, but do you use it in a professional setting as well?

Do we know Dunn's IQ???
Sorry. I guess I shouldn't say the smartest or dumbest guy because I personally don't know. I use it in a professional setting as well. Social work.

[Mommyto2]

The Bona Dea records should be sealed for any reason should they? Dunn didn't testify, and I don't remember from The Courier articles that Seth Irwin acknoweldge Dunn's guilt at any time. But I do remember talk on other boards by supposed relatives that Dunn and the victim had a relationship. Let us know if you find that Dunn admitted the Bona Dea attack.

During the first investigation, I believe that Mrs. Chenoweth alibied Dunn for the day of Nona's murder. It seems like that alibi has now come into question. Makes me somewhat surprised if KJ's defense knew anything about Dunn being questioned (and his criminal history) that they didn't drag him into the fray to establish reasonable doubt instead of slandering and libeling Jeremy Martin.

Wouldn't there still be a file though with all the police reports and things like that? And I'm sorry if it ends up being hearsay but I really thought it was true. Just tying to help with theories but sorry if mine may be based on falsehood:confused:

[FDInLaw]

Sorry. I guess I shouldn't say the smartest or dumbest guy because I personally don't know. I use it in a professional setting as well. Social work.
I agree, I don't think it is safe for us to assume that Gary has a low IQ. . . an anger management problem, yes. . . but dumb? I believe we should wait for more indicators there.

[Mommyto2]

I agree, I don't think it is safe for us to assume that Gary has a low IQ. . . an anger management problem, yes. . . but dumb? I believe we should wait for more indicators there.
Yes, your right and lots of criminals have higher iq's for that matter. Bad choice of words.

Editted to add: Does anyone else find it odd that he hired an attorney in the Bona Dea but has public defenders this time?

[FDInLaw]

Wouldn't there still be a file though with all the police reports and things like that? And I'm sorry if it ends up being hearsay but I really thought it was true. Just tying to help with theories but sorry if mine may be based on falsehood:confused:
We all hear different things. One benefit of a forum like this is the opportunity to get at the truth. It is important to question what you hear and seek out valid sources. When possible, do post news links when you find them. The Bona Dea incident is a black hole for all of us. There isn't much to be had on the Internet. Maybe one of you locals can try to get more info via the court house???
:shrug:

[FDInLaw]

Yes, your right and lots of criminals have higher iq's for that matter. Bad choice of words.

Editted to add: Does anyone else find it odd that he hired an attorney in the Bona Dea but has public defenders this time?Did his family help pay for this? Maybe, now with his Mother's illness, this is not a finacial option for them? I don't know. Did they really hire Seth Irwin? Interesting.

[Mommyto2]

We all hear different things. One benefit of a forum like this is the opportunity to get at the truth. It is important to question what you hear and seek out valid sources. When possible, do post news links when you find them. The Bona Dea incident is a black hole for all of us. There isn't much to be had on the Internet. Maybe one of you locals can try to get more info via the court house???
:shrug:
I will try to head that way this week sometime. I wish Arkansas would get on the ball and put all court records online!

[lorettalockhorn]

I agree, I don't think it is safe for us to assume that Gary has a low IQ. . . an anger management problem, yes. . . but dumb? I believe we should wait for more indicators there.

Apparently that anger management course that he completed before the Bona Dea trial didn't take if he bludgeoned Nona.

[FDInLaw]

I will try to head that way this week sometime. I wish Arkansas would get on the ball and put all court records online!No kidding! I've gotten spoiled following the Arizona case where an eight year old was charged for double homicide. It took two minutes to subscribe to their online court page and now I receive instant notification whenever anything is filled in the case. Convenient. I like it! :hat:

[lorettalockhorn]

Wouldn't there still be a file though with all the police reports and things like that? And I'm sorry if it ends up being hearsay but I really thought it was true. Just tying to help with theories but sorry if mine may be based on falsehood:confused:

I've seen very few trial files that contain the actual police reports, those are obtained through the police department. If Dunn had ever admitted to the Bona Dea crime, I'm sure that it would have been testified to or mentioned by the prosecution or in The Courier.

[Mommyto2]

Did his family help pay for this? Maybe, now with his Mother's illness, this is not a finacial option for them? I don't know. Did they really hire Seth Irwin? Interesting.
Well I would imagine that he did since Dunham would have been his public defender but why does he not have Dunham this time also? Seth Irwin is usually a hired attorney. I do believe that at one time he was Yell COunty Public defender but this happened in Pope. Will try to find all that information.

[FDInLaw]

Well I would imagine that he did since Dunham would have been his public defender but why does he not have Dunham this time also? Seth Irwin is usually a hired attorney. I do believe that at one time he was Yell COunty Public defender but this happened in Pope. Will try to find all that information.

Please post what you find!

TIA! :seeya:

[Mommyto2]

Prior to his arrest, Irwin worked as a public defender in the 15th Judicial District, comprised of Yell, Scott and Logan counties.
http://www.couriernews.com/archivedstory.php?ID=19027
Article date: 7-24-08

[FDInLaw]

I've seen very few trial files that contain the actual police reports, those are obtained through the police department. If Dunn had ever admitted to the Bona Dea crime, I'm sure that it would have been testified to or mentioned by the prosecution or in The Courier.

I can't imagine why such a confession wouldn't have? I still bet the comments about Gary having a reason for the attack stem from private conversations or rumors. It seems reasonable to me that Dunn would have tried to explain things to his family, give them a reason why. . . maybe lie??? There was pretty much no doubt that he was culpable. What was he going to tell his family? That he just felt like attacking a perfect stranger? I think not.

All speculation on my part.

[Mommyto2]

I can't imagine why such a confession wouldn't have? I still bet the comments about Gary having a reason for the attack stem from private conversations or rumors. It seems reasonable to me that Dunn would have tried to explain things to his family, give them a reason why. . . maybe lie??? There was pretty much no doubt that he was culpable. What was he going to tell his family? That he just felt like attacking a perfect stranger? I think not.

All speculation on my part.
And you guys maybe right. I have seen police reports in many files although those were not trials but that's why I will try to check it out though. Also I don't think he knew the girl at least none of the rumors locally that I ever heard.:shrug:
Here is some more about GD's 1st attorney. He was for hire around the time he did GD's trial about attacking the girl at Bona Dea.
while Russellville attorney SETH IRWIN has entered a not guilty plea for his client, Teresa Dick. http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=4236&Search=seth%20irwin

She did hire him so I don't know where else to find if he was hired in GD's case at least to be 100% sure. If anyone knows let me know and I will try to figure it out!

[lorettalockhorn]

I can't imagine why such a confession wouldn't have? I still bet the comments about Gary having a reason for the attack stem from private conversations or rumors. It seems reasonable to me that Dunn would have tried to explain things to his family, give them a reason why. . . maybe lie??? There was pretty much no doubt that he was culpable. What was he going to tell his family? That he just felt like attacking a perfect stranger? I think not.

All speculation on my part.

Most of the comments that I read along the lines of Dunn having a previous relationship with the Bona Dea vic were at the KTHV website. I invited the "relatives" to come here and post with us, but nada so far.

If there had been a previous connection, it seems to me that Gibbons could have used it to drive home the cold bloodedness of the attack; i.e. that if Dunn would do this to a friend, imagine how he would treat a stranger, or to drive home that it was a premeditated act. I'm guessing that if Dunn ever told LE that there was a relationship, it couldn't be proved by the investigation. Minimally.

[lorettalockhorn]

And you guys maybe right. I have seen police reports in many files although those were not trials but that's why I will try to check it out though. Also I don't think he knew the girl at least none of the rumors locally that I ever heard.:shrug:
Here is some more about GD's 1st attorney. He was for hire around the time he did GD's trial about attacking the girl at Bona Dea.
while Russellville attorney SETH IRWIN has entered a not guilty plea for his client, Teresa Dick. http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=4236&Search=seth%20irwin

She did hire him so I don't know where else to find if he was hired in GD's case at least to be 100% sure. If anyone knows let me know and I will try to figure it out!

hmmm I've never seen a police report in a court file.

[lorettalockhorn]

Well I would imagine that he did since Dunham would have been his public defender but why does he not have Dunham this time also? Seth Irwin is usually a hired attorney. I do believe that at one time he was Yell COunty Public defender but this happened in Pope. Will try to find all that information.

From The Courier on 9/23:

Murder suspect pleads not guilty

Public Defender Commission appoints Little Rock lawyer to represent man accused in 2005 Dirksmeyer murder

By Adam Franks
crime@couriernews.com

The Dover man suspected of killing Arkansas Tech University student Nona Dirksmeyer pleaded not guilty to charges of capital murder at a hearing Monday morning in Pope County Circuit Court.
Gary W. Dunn, 29, is accused in the Dec. 15, 2005, slaying of Dirksmeyer at her home on South Inglewood Avenue in Russellville. Dunn was arrested in August near Center Ridge in Conway County, and is being held on a $1 million cash-only bond at the Pope County Detention Center
Dunn is scheduled to stand trial April 13-24, 2009.
The state Public Defender Commission, which was appointed to represent Dunn, hired two Little Rock attorneys to handle what 5th Judicial District Chief Public Defender James Dunham called a logistically challenging case.
"If I were to handle this case, it would have a huge impact on the criminal docket I handle; it would be almost impossible," Dunham said. "The commission appoints attorneys to be conflict lawyers when there are logistical issues."
Dunham said the appointments of Jeff Rosenzweig and Bill James to Dunn's case was not an uncommon practice, and siad both attorneys have worked in the area.
"Jeff Rosenzweig is highly experienced in the kind of case,m which involves 8th Amendment - death penalty - considerations," Dunham said.
"Bill James is very experienced and up here often, so he's not unfamiliar with the courts in this area."
Rosenzweig is listed in the Bar Register of Preeminent Lawyers in criminal trial practice, civil rights, appellate practice and white collar crime,, according to Lawyers.com, an Internet listing of legal resources and attorney profiles.
Dunham said adept representation would help expedite the judicial process of a capital murder case, and called the appointment the "intelligent thing to do."
Background
Dirksmeyer, a 2004 graduate of Dover High School, was the reigning Miss Petit Jean Valley at the time of her death.
Kevin N. Jones of Dover, Dirksmeyer's boyfriend and the first man charged in the death, was acquitted by a Franklin County jury July 19, 2007.
At Jones' trial, Jones' mothers, Janice Jones, testified she, Jones and Ryan Whiteside, a friend of Jones' and a pizza delivery man who Jones told police he asked to check on Dirksmeyer after he was unable to reach her, discovered Dirksmeyer's body.
Jack McQuary, a special prosecutor appointed to the case following Jones' acquittal, released information at the time of Dunn's arrest that indicated DA found on a condomn wrapper near Dirksmeyer's body was matched to both Dunn and Dirksmeyer.
Investigators have also confirmed Dunn, who was previously convicted of second-degree battery after he attacked a woman with a large stick at Bona Dea Trails, lived in the same apartment complex as Dirksmeyer at the time of her death.

The Courier's website had not been update when I typed this back on P6, post #210

[Mommyto2]

hmmm I've never seen a police report in a court file.
Lol. Maybe I didn't see one although I thought I have before. I'm not too bright when it comes to legal stuff. But I will at least try to check it out. Again, it was probably a rumor that I heard and just believed it. I have trouble with that sometimes:tongue: I am really just trying to figure out the defense for GD. Really the best would be to go after KJ and RSO.

[Mommyto2]

From The Courier on 9/23:

Murder suspect pleads not guilty

Public Defender Commission appoints Little Rock lawyer to represent man accused in 2005 Dirksmeyer murder

By Adam Franks
crime@couriernews.com

The Dover man suspected of killing Arkansas Tech University student Nona Dirksmeyer pleaded not guilty to charges of capital murder at a hearing Monday morning in Pope County Circuit Court.
Gary W. Dunn, 29, is accused in the Dec. 15, 2005, slaying of Dirksmeyer at her home on South Inglewood Avenue in Russellville. Dunn was arrested in August near Center Ridge in Conway County, and is being held on a $1 million cash-only bond at the Pope County Detention Center


Dunn is scheduled to stand trial April 13-24, 2009.
The state Public Defender Commission, which was appointed to represent Dunn, hired two Little Rock attorneys to handle what 5th Judicial District Chief Public Defender James Dunham called a logistically challenging case.
"If I were to handle this case, it would have a huge impact on the criminal docket I handle; it would be almost impossible," Dunham said. "The commission appoints attorneys to be conflict lawyers when there are logistical issues."
Dunham said the appointments of Jeff Rosenzweig and Bill James to Dunn's case was not an uncommon practice, and siad both attorneys have worked in the area.
"Jeff Rosenzweig is highly experienced in the kind of case,m which involves 8th Amendment - death penalty - considerations," Dunham said.
"Bill James is very experienced and up here often, so he's not unfamiliar with the courts in this area."
Rosenzweig is listed in the Bar Register of Preeminent Lawyers in criminal trial practice, civil rights, appellate practice and white collar crime,, according to Lawyers.com, an Internet listing of legal resources and attorney profiles.
Dunham said adept representation would help expedite the judicial process of a capital murder case, and called the appointment the "intelligent thing to do."
Background
Dirksmeyer, a 2004 graduate of Dover High School, was the reigning Miss Petit Jean Valley at the time of her death.
Kevin N. Jones of Dover, Dirksmeyer's boyfriend and the first man charged in the death, was acquitted by a Franklin County jury July 19, 2007.
At Jones' trial, Jones' mothers, Janice Jones, testified she, Jones and Ryan Whiteside, a friend of Jones' and a pizza delivery man who Jones told police he asked to check on Dirksmeyer after he was unable to reach her, discovered Dirksmeyer's body.
Jack McQuary, a special prosecutor appointed to the case following Jones' acquittal, released information at the time of Dunn's arrest that indicated DA found on a condomn wrapper near Dirksmeyer's body was matched to both Dunn and Dirksmeyer.
Investigators have also confirmed Dunn, who was previously convicted of second-degree battery after he attacked a woman with a large stick at Bona Dea Trails, lived in the same apartment complex as Dirksmeyer at the time of her death.

The Courier's website had not been update when I typed this back on P6, post #210

Thanks! I looked for something but never could find it:D

[Mommyto2]

The more I think about it, it had to be a rumor because who would confess to it and then go take it to trial.:shrug: Next time I post a theory it will be more accurate. I'm 2 for 2 the past few days.

[FDInLaw]

The more I think about it, it had to be a rumor because who would confess to it and then go take it to trial.:shrug: Next time I post a theory it will be more accurate. I'm 2 for 2 the past few days.

No biggie. . . I'm sure you will have occasion to return the favor! :hat:

Feel free to ask me where I got something any time. . . . my mind is rusty and I often get things mixed up!





:seeya:

[lorettalockhorn]

The more I think about it, it had to be a rumor because who would confess to it and then go take it to trial.:shrug: Next time I post a theory it will be more accurate. I'm 2 for 2 the past few days.

Mommy, I made a huge blunder once in the main Nona thread one time (and probably some less than huge). It's hard to separate rumor from fact sometimes, especially when you're relying on The Courier with it's crappy website to provide links.

[Mommyto2]

Thanks guys:o
Oh and I went to our local courthouse today and I saw what I thought had been police reports but they are more like a summary of events that happened. Not the actual police reports. But I still plan on going to the PC courthouse to see what I can find out that will lend some more theories about what could have happened.

[TJEddie]

How could Dunn gain entrance into Nona's apartment if he did not know her as he claimed? Perhaps the cracked door jamb will be a factor in this trial. Could he have retrieved something from her trash in the dumpster and used it as a pretense to knock on her door claiming to have found it in the parking lot? Was the greeting card new or was it older and may have been in her trash?

If this was a premeditated sexual attack, I agree a ruse like that would be plausible. Based on Dunn's prior history, I'm still leaning toward an attack in anger, though. Lots of things can cause flare-ups between neighbors. (I'd offer a few possibilities, but knowing how this board works, I'm afraid I'd be seeing them quoted by someone as facts somewhere down the line.) I believe it's been said that Nona and Dunn did not know one another, but knowing Nona's soft spot for kids, I wonder if she had perhaps had contact with Dunn's wife and/or kids.....just a thought. Anyway, I can certainly see even a supposedly security conscious person opening the door to the familiar face of a neighbor.

The wet bathtub observed by Frost you mentioned in a previous post puzzles me.

Ah.....I had forgotten about that little nugget. Yes, it is a puzzler. Has anyone here done a shower drying time test at home?

Another thing that seems to have fallen off the radar screen is the thermostat having been turned down/off. I wonder if anything will come of that.

[TJEddie]

WAIT! Where/when did he admit to anything? Help a girl out!

Come on, Loretta. You're a walking Thesaurus......you know what the word postulated means.

(In the spirit of fair play, I will, however, offer high marks on your Southern belle presentation of all caps, exclamation points, and referring to yourself as a "girl.")

[Mommyto2]

Well I am at least sticking to my story that he must have hired Irwin and doesn't have a hired attorney this time.And I just find that so weird. If I was on trial for murder I would do what I could to hire one. And his financial situation could be worse this time but still you're facing death!

[lorettalockhorn]

Come on, Loretta. You're a walking Thesaurus......you know what the word postulated means.

(In the spirit of fair play, I will, however, offer high marks on your Southern belle presentation of all caps, exclamation points, and referring to yourself as a "girl.")

Yes, but at the time, Mommy had offered the confession as fact and I was challenging that. (Or trying to.)

Of course I refer to myself as a girl. "Help a boy out" just doesn't have any cache.

LMAO

[The R]

The ferocity and duration of the attack denotes cruel intent. He would be convicted. No lawyer can sugar coat this. A plea bargain would be a better deal for him under these circumstances.

I agree pretty much and no offense to Mommy2, but who in the world would buy the defense that a girl like Nona was trying to break it off with a guy like Dunn and he had to defend himself? That's pretty far fetched IMO. IIRC, he ain't got a lot going for him and has a criminal record.

But then again if a guy like Brian Nichols can escape the death penalty in Atlanta with all he did, why not go ahead and spend the taxpayer's money for Dunn?


ALLMO,
R

[Mommyto2]

I agree pretty much and no offense to Mommy2, but who in the world would buy the defense that a girl like Nona was trying to break it off with a guy like Dunn and he had to defend himself? That's pretty far fetched IMO. IIRC, he ain't got a lot going for him and has a criminal record.

But then again if a guy like Brian Nichols can escape the death penalty in Atlanta with all he did, why not go ahead and spend the taxpayer's money for Dunn?


ALLMO,
R
No offense taken. But if his DNA can be placed in the apartment on more then just the condom then they are going to have to come up with a better defense then he wasn't there or someone planted the evidence. If he did it and said there was a relationship and in the heat of the moment he killed her then that would be a better defense. He wouldn't take a plea IMO and maybe get 1 juror to see his side. Maybe a guy who had been abused in a relationship or one who thinks all women are horrible and just using guys. I know-farfetched but could happen. Nona's past history with guys will probably come into play and show that she liked guys from all backgrounds. (No offense to Nona-just showing what Defense could do)

[The R]

No offense taken. But if his DNA can be placed in the apartment on more then just the condom then they are going to have to come up with a better defense then he wasn't there or someone planted the evidence. If he did it and said there was a relationship and in the heat of the moment he killed her then that would be a better defense. He wouldn't take a plea IMO and maybe get 1 juror to see his side. Maybe a guy who had been abused in a relationship or one who thinks all women are horrible and just using guys. I know-farfetched but could happen. Nona's past history with guys will probably come into play and show that she liked guys from all backgrounds. (No offense to Nona-just showing what Defense could do)


10-4 Mommy2 I see your point, esp. on the condom wrapper. As I posted the other day, that whole condom wrapper thing is weird to me, esp in the context of a sexual assault.

Hopefully they won't decide to put Nona's behavior on trial, but you are right, some will stoop to any level.


ALLMO,
R

[lorettalockhorn]

No offense taken. But if his DNA can be placed in the apartment on more then just the condom then they are going to have to come up with a better defense then he wasn't there or someone planted the evidence. If he did it and said there was a relationship and in the heat of the moment he killed her then that would be a better defense. He wouldn't take a plea IMO and maybe get 1 juror to see his side. Maybe a guy who had been abused in a relationship or one who thinks all women are horrible and just using guys. I know-farfetched but could happen. Nona's past history with guys will probably come into play and show that she liked guys from all backgrounds. (No offense to Nona-just showing what Defense could do)

I'll be surprised if The State has Dunn's DNA or fingerprints anywhere except on the condom wrapper (if you read the information the first time around you'll remember that the first investigation was pretty lackadaisical.)) With the gag order it's hard to know what's going on or who may testify, but it looks like they're going to need an eyewitness to put Dunn in Nona's apartment or in her company. Considering the placement of the wrapper and the fact that it was found but that the condom wasn't makes it easy for me to believe that the wrapper could have been planted. (Wasn't that the first theory by LE and mid-trial it became a trigger?)

I suppose it's possible that the killer came into the apartment while Nona was upstairs, stripped and waited for her. When she came downstairs, the attack could have taken place, the killer could have gone upstairs, flushed the condom (used or not), maybe took a shower, dressed, turned the thermostat down and left. Wonder if he will have nearly as many witnesses to his behavior that afternoon as KJ did.

[Mommyto2]

I'll be surprised if The State has Dunn's DNA or fingerprints anywhere except on the condom wrapper (if you read the information the first time around you'll remember that the first investigation was pretty lackadaisical.)) With the gag order it's hard to know what's going on or who may testify, but it looks like they're going to need an eyewitness to put Dunn in Nona's apartment or in her company. Considering the placement of the wrapper and the fact that it was found but that the condom wasn't makes it easy for me to believe that the wrapper could have been planted. (Wasn't that the first theory by LE and mid-trial it became a trigger?)

I suppose it's possible that the killer came into the apartment while Nona was upstairs, stripped and waited for her. When she came downstairs, the attack could have taken place, the killer could have gone upstairs, flushed the condom (used or not), maybe took a shower, dressed, turned the thermostat down and left. Wonder if he will have nearly as many witnesses to his behavior that afternoon as KJ did.
Yea I doubt that they have more then that but they have got to have something to seek death penalty.(which is why I thought maybe confession) It makes me sick that they are now saying sexual assualt after all this time! I do think either the condom was either a trigger for KJ or could have been planted by KJ. I'm wondering how close the dumpsters were to her apartment. Of course I don't see KJ digging through them to get a used condom. Even if the condom had been flushed they should have been able to find it. I know alot of cops who have to search toilets for flushed drugs/etc. and find all kinds of things. Stuff that has been there for awhile too.
So where did the condom go? In the dumpster? In GD's trash or KJ's trash?

[lorettalockhorn]

Yea I doubt that they have more then that but they have got to have something to seek death penalty.(which is why I thought maybe confession) It makes me sick that they are now saying sexual assualt after all this time! I do think either the condom was either a trigger for KJ or could have been planted by KJ. I'm wondering how close the dumpsters were to her apartment. Of course I don't see KJ digging through them to get a used condom. Even if the condom had been flushed they should have been able to find it. I know alot of cops who have to search toilets for flushed drugs/etc. and find all kinds of things. Stuff that has been there for awhile too.
So where did the condom go? In the dumpster? In GD's trash or KJ's trash?

According to one to McQuary's statements (it's in here somewhere), the prosecution thinks the murder was premeditated. I can see Kevin digging through trash to save his skin, just like I can imagine him spying on Nona those couple of days in between when he left Fayetteville at the end of his test schedule, and when he went home days later.

[Mommyto2]

According to one to McQuary's statements (it's in here somewhere), the prosecution thinks the murder was premeditated. I can see Kevin digging through trash to save his skin, just like I can imagine him spying on Nona those couple of days in between when he left Fayetteville at the end of his test schedule, and when he went home days later.
Okay well then the prosecution isn't going to make sense because if they are saying GD knew he was going to do this but he had an anger problem also. Although that may seem to go hand in hand, it usual doesn't. People who need anger management just blow up. They don't usually plan on having anger it just happens. They aren't planners. That would also show me that the prosecution will have to show a relationship between the two, more then just being neighbors. IMO

[lorettalockhorn]

Okay well then the prosecution isn't going to make sense because if they are saying GD knew he was going to do this but he had an anger problem also. Although that may seem to go hand in hand, it usual doesn't. People who need anger management just blow up. They don't usually plan on having anger it just happens. They aren't planners. That would also show me that the prosecution will have to show a relationship between the two, more then just being neighbors. IMO

Well, if McQuary has a witness who will testify that he was really honked off and said that he was going to kill Nona, and then he did, it would make sense to me. The bludgeoning that was delivered indicates anger for sure. But it's going to take more than a condom wrapper to convince me.

[Mommyto2]

Well, if McQuary has a witness who will testify that he was really honked off and said that he was going to kill Nona, and then he did, it would make sense to me. The bludgeoning that was delivered indicates anger for sure. But it's going to take more than a condom wrapper to convince me.

True it does indicate anger but to me a crime of passion. He had to have known her better though. I would think his wife/ex-wife may know if they had any type(not just sexual) of relationship. Whoever did it wanted her dead for sure. Maybe GD did do it with the intention of raping her. I believe AR has the law that it is a capital offense when in the process of another crime you kill the person even without intending too? So that would be death penalty too. He may have seen her around and decided to rape her and then she fought so hard he got scared and realized he would go back to prison for good this time so he had to kill her?

[lorettalockhorn]

True it does indicate anger but to me a crime of passion. He had to have known her better though. I would think his wife/ex-wife may know if they had any type(not just sexual) of relationship. Whoever did it wanted her dead for sure. Maybe GD did do it with the intention of raping her. I believe AR has the law that it is a capital offense when in the process of another crime you kill the person even without intending too? So that would be death penalty too. He may have seen her around and decided to rape her and then she fought so hard he got scared and realized he would go back to prison for good this time so he had to kill her?

I'm assuming from McQuary's statement way back when, that he actually threatened to kill Nona. I can't wrap my head around premeditated crime of passion though.

I'm not sure what other felony may have been committed during the murder, don't think there is evidence of forcible rape, don't think a felony robbery occurred (at least it wasn't mentioned in the first investigation or trial).

[Mommyto2]

I'm assuming from McQuary's statement way back when, that he actually threatened to kill Nona. I can't wrap my head around premeditated crime of passion though.

I'm not sure what other felony may have been committed during the murder, don't think there is evidence of forcible rape, don't think a felony robbery occurred (at least it wasn't mentioned in the first investigation or trial).

No sorry if I made it seem like I was saying that it was premeditated crime of passion. I thought that they said she was sexually assualted? That would be another felony. I wonder who heard him say that he was going to kill her. Whoever it was needs to be prosecuted for not speaking up in the beginning. I wonder if we'll see a witness list?

[TJEddie]

I'm assuming from McQuary's statement way back when, that he actually threatened to kill Nona.....

"Under capital murder, there's a specific subsection on that, that says something to the effect of premeditation, a person that wants to kill a person and he kills a person,” McQuary said. Based upon the case it fits the case."

http://arkansasmatters.com/common/printerfriendly.php?cid=103421

Is this the quote you're referring to, Loretta? You owe me for making me look it up and read it again.....it's almost like diving into a big bowl of word salad. My guess (and hope) is that McQuary was being intentionally vague.

[lorettalockhorn]

"Under capital murder, there's a specific subsection on that, that says something to the effect of premeditation, a person that wants to kill a person and he kills a person,” McQuary said. Based upon the case it fits the case."

http://arkansasmatters.com/common/printerfriendly.php?cid=103421

Is this the quote you're referring to, Loretta? You owe me for making me look it up and read it again.....it's almost like diving into a big bowl of word salad. My guess (and hope) is that McQuary was being intentionally vague.

I believe that is the exact same quote posted right here in this thread! Thanks for re-posting it, it'll save people from having to go back and read so many pages. :seeya:

[TJEddie]

The Arkansas Code subsection so eloquently paraphrased by McQuary:

(4) With the premeditated and deliberated purpose of causing the death of another person, the person causes the death of any person;

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1364

The legal definition of premeditation isn't real clear cut. There isn't any specific time requirement for premeditation. It's my lay understanding that premeditation can occur even minutes or seconds before the act.....it's simply a consciously formed decision to attempt to kill. (Once again, my lay interpretation.) In this case, I wonder if the number and pattern of injuries to Nona might be used to argue that while the other injuries were intended to maim or incapacitate, the final blow was obviously an intention to kill. Just guessin'.....

More about premeditation here:

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

[lorettalockhorn]

No sorry if I made it seem like I was saying that it was premeditated crime of passion. I thought that they said she was sexually assualted? That would be another felony. I wonder who heard him say that he was going to kill her. Whoever it was needs to be prosecuted for not speaking up in the beginning. I wonder if we'll see a witness list?

Mommy, don't know if we'll see a probable cause statement or witness list before the trial. (Hate that gag order!)

It's been months since I've read anything at the KTHV site (which is where there were lots of interesting posts, but not much substantiation). But I agree that if anyone heard threats and didn't report them before, let alone after Nona's murder, it's a crying shame. Especially if it could have avoided a false accusation and the trial against KJ. I'm interested to learn who all gave Dunn an alibi for the day of the murder.

[lorettalockhorn]

The Arkansas Code subsection so eloquently paraphrased by McQuary:

(4) With the premeditated and deliberated purpose of causing the death of another person, the person causes the death of any person;

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/viewresource.asp?resourceID=1364

The legal definition of premeditation isn't real clear cut. There isn't any specific time requirement for premeditation. It's my lay understanding that premeditation can occur even minutes or seconds before the act.....it's simply a consciously formed decision to attempt to kill. (Once again, my lay interpretation.) In this case, I wonder if the number and pattern of injuries to Nona might be used to argue that while the other injuries were intended to maim or incapacitate, the final blow was obviously an intention to kill. Just guessin'.....

More about premeditation here:

http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/p075.htm

Thanks for the link and the reminder about premeditation.

[Mommyto2]

Mommy, don't know if we'll see a probable cause statement or witness list before the trial. (Hate that gag order!)

It's been months since I've read anything at the KTHV site (which is where there were lots of interesting posts, but not much substantiation). But I agree that if anyone heard threats and didn't report them before, let alone after Nona's murder, it's a crying shame. Especially if it could have avoided a false accusation and the trial against KJ. I'm interested to learn who all gave Dunn an alibi for the day of the murder.

Well I think I remember an article stating that he was with his mom all day but now she is saying that she can't be too sure? I will go back and look for that article.
And good grief about the definition of premeditation. Then drunk drivers who kill should get capital murder!

[The R]

since you folks are on legal definitions, let me ask a question about a viable defense to those that would know....

Could the defense for Dunn use the fact that the prosecution is inept? I mean the record shows that KJ was found not guilty and IIRC the crime scene had some problems in its processing, esp with protecting evidence.

Is it possible Dunn could get off through the defense showing that the prosecution has a poor track record and has already tried someone for Nona's murder?



Thanks,
R

[lorettalockhorn]

since you folks are on legal definitions, let me ask a question about a viable defense to those that would know....

Could the defense for Dunn use the fact that the prosecution is inept? I mean the record shows that KJ was found not guilty and IIRC the crime scene had some problems in its processing, esp with protecting evidence.

Is it possible Dunn could get off through the defense showing that the prosecution has a poor track record and has already tried someone for Nona's murder?



Thanks,
R

Not sure if this is a good answer (and my legal definition abilities are only as good as my google searches), but even though the original forensic investigation by RPD was severely lacking, this is a completely different prosecution team.

For what it's worth, Gibbons, the original prosecutor has a pretty good track record. His assistant in the Jones trial, Phillips, is highly regarded also. He actually defended a murder (or maybe it was manslaughter?) case against Gibbons and won.

[FDInLaw]

Keep in mind that the second investigation was conducted by the State Police and not the Russellville PD. Unfortunately though, no matter the caliber of the officers involved, the State's investigation had to suffer some as a result of previous mistakes. It is comforting to know that there were individuals well versed in homicide investigation on the job this time around. However, I doubt this will keep the defense from sighting the problems that occurred at the unset the first go around.

Dunn's present stance that he did not know Nona and had never been in her apartment is going to be a hard sell for the jury IMO. (That pesky wrapper.) I wonder if Dunn's story will change at all? If they stick with it, I'm guess that they will go after Kevin and claim that he found the wrapper and planted it? That Kevin had the foresight to make sure Nona's dna was on it as well? Seems like a real long shot to me. Dunn could claim to have had an affair with the victim and then lied because he was married at the time, and then recently because of that unfortunate Bona Dea incident that would cast him in a bad light. If this admission was made, the defense would have a clear shot at the whole “trigger” argument, which would also put Kevin in the hot seat. I don't know. Admitting that you are a liar doesn't sit well with jurors. It should be interesting to watch how they try to argue their way out of this mess. I wonder if the Judge will allow them the test the wrapper independently?

Other than going after KJ, the defense may simply argue that Gary is in this position as a result of a manhunt for someone to take the blame. That their client is the victim of a botched investigation that the State is desperate to rectify. All we know for certain is that there will be a finger pointing fest. Just gotta wonder who will be singled out. At the end of the day though, both Dunn and Dirksmeyer's dna was found on that wrapper. . . I'm assuming that the PA will not let the jury forget that.

Thinking out loud. . . just an armchair ramble. . .

~ FD

[lorettalockhorn]

FD, very good point that ASP conducted a new investigation, but I wonder what new evidence was uncovered? I'm also curious about the search of Mrs. Chenoweth's shed and anything retrieved there (what if it's THE stick?!); she claims the search was unlawful, but we haven't seen any motions to quash the evidence.

Gee, if Kevin was going to plant a condom wrapper to implicate someone (anyone) else, why wouldn't it occur to him to get Nona's DNA on it? He watches L&O, remember? Just sort of kidding, there is so much forensics information in the public nowadays that it doesn't seem a stretch to me.

I was thinking about the first part of your second paragraph last night. I wonder how much pressure there was for this crime to be re-investigated outside of the Jones defense. There's not so much talk about the Jones trial (not around me anyway) these days, and I still haven't run into anyone who thinks that Kevin didn't do it.

[FDInLaw]

FD, very good point that ASP conducted a new investigation, but I wonder what new evidence was uncovered? I'm also curious about the search of Mrs. Chenoweth's shed and anything retrieved there (what if it's THE stick?!); she claims the search was unlawful, but we haven't seen any motions to quash the evidence.

Gee, if Kevin was going to plant a condom wrapper to implicate someone (anyone) else, why wouldn't it occur to him to get Nona's DNA on it? He watches L&O, remember? Just sort of kidding, there is so much forensics information in the public nowadays that it doesn't seem a stretch to me.

I was thinking about the first part of your second paragraph last night. I wonder how much pressure there was for this crime to be re-investigated outside of the Jones defense. There's not so much talk about the Jones trial (not around me anyway) these days, and I still haven't run into anyone who thinks that Kevin didn't do it.
Gosh, I wonder what might have been found in that shed. Haven't thought much about it. Hummmm. I still wonder if the missing stick was the actual murder weapon.

You've mentioned several times your concern over the chain of custody. The defense's best shot at reasonable doubt will be to discredit the dna findings in any way they can (IMO). This will be a much easier task if nothing else puts Dunn in the apartment. . . ugh, I want to know if there anything else!

[Amy]

since you folks are on legal definitions, let me ask a question about a viable defense to those that would know....

Could the defense for Dunn use the fact that the prosecution is inept? I mean the record shows that KJ was found not guilty and IIRC the crime scene had some problems in its processing, esp with protecting evidence.

Is it possible Dunn could get off through the defense showing that the prosecution has a poor track record and has already tried someone for Nona's murder?



Thanks,
R

But it's a whole new prosecution team, isn't it? I don't think they could use that cuz it doesn't sound like any of the folks from the KJ trial will be on the Dunn trial.

[The R]

Not sure if this is a good answer (and my legal definition abilities are only as good as my google searches), but even though the original forensic investigation by RPD was severely lacking, this is a completely different prosecution team.

For what it's worth, Gibbons, the original prosecutor has a pretty good track record. His assistant in the Jones trial, Phillips, is highly regarded also. He actually defended a murder (or maybe it was manslaughter?) case against Gibbons and won.

But it's a whole new prosecution team, isn't it? I don't think they could use that cuz it doesn't sound like any of the folks from the KJ trial will be on the Dunn trial.


Thanks y'all, I didn't know that it was a totally new team. I do agree with FD though that the first trial's outcome will be a strength for the defense.

R

[The R]

Keep in mind that the second investigation was conducted by the State Police and not the Russellville PD. Unfortunately though, no matter the caliber of the officers involved, the State's investigation had to suffer some as a result of previous mistakes. It is comforting to know that there were individuals well versed in homicide investigation on the job this time around. However, I doubt this will keep the defense from sighting the problems that occurred at the unset the first go around.

Dunn's present stance that he did not know Nona and had never been in her apartment is going to be a hard sell for the jury IMO. (That pesky wrapper.) I wonder if Dunn's story will change at all? If they stick with it, I'm guess that they will go after Kevin and claim that he found the wrapper and planted it? That Kevin had the foresight to make sure Nona's dna was on it as well? Seems like a real long shot to me. Dunn could claim to have had an affair with the victim and then lied because he was married at the time, and then recently because of that unfortunate Bona Dea incident that would cast him in a bad light. If this admission was made, the defense would have a clear shot at the whole “trigger” argument, which would also put Kevin in the hot seat. I don't know. Admitting that you are a liar doesn't sit well with jurors. It should be interesting to watch how they try to argue their way out of this mess. I wonder if the Judge will allow them the test the wrapper independently?

Other than going after KJ, the defense may simply argue that Gary is in this position as a result of a manhunt for someone to take the blame. That their client is the victim of a botched investigation that the State is desperate to rectify. All we know for certain is that there will be a finger pointing fest. Just gotta wonder who will be singled out. At the end of the day though, both Dunn and Dirksmeyer's dna was found on that wrapper. . . I'm assuming that the PA will not let the jury forget that.

Thinking out loud. . . just an armchair ramble. . .

~ FD



interesting points. I'm wondering if the defense will be restricted in any way in questioning KJ due to double jeopardy rules? I guess that's a little of putting the cart before the horse since it might not happen.

ALLMO,
R

[FDInLaw]

interesting points. I'm wondering if the defense will be restricted in any way in questioning KJ due to double jeopardy rules? I guess that's a little of putting the cart before the horse since it might not happen.

ALLMO,
R
The State cannot prosecute Kevin for this crime again, but what is to stop Dunn's defense from implicating him? I don't know. . . what is the law here???

This time around the defense will have a tougher job of discrediting the investigation and prosecution (or so I hope). However, is there anything to stop them from using the follies of the previous one? I assume that the defense can and will. MOO

We need our court house birdie. . . (LMBO). . .

[sololobo]

I don't think the defense will go after Kevin. It didn't work the first time and probably wouldn't this time. It would only leave the new jury with a choice between Kevin and Dunn and Dunn would lose.

If this goes to trial and if the defense contends Dunn was framed, I believe they will go after another tenant of the complex, a male or perhaps even a jealous wife. Someone who knew Dunn's history. Someone who could have killed Nona, left, raided the trash bin for Dunn's trash, and returned to her apartment with items implicating Dunn. If so, I bet more than just the wrapper was planted but not discovered by RPD. This is far-fetched and has a lot of holes in it with what little I know. Perhaps his defense knows more and can make it somewhat believable.

[FDInLaw]

I don't think the defense will go after Kevin. It didn't work the first time and probably wouldn't this time. It would only leave the new jury with a choice between Kevin and Dunn and Dunn would lose.

If this goes to trial and if the defense contends Dunn was framed, I believe they will go after another tenant of the complex, a male or perhaps even a jealous wife. Someone who knew Dunn's history. Someone who could have killed Nona, left, raided the trash bin for Dunn's trash, and returned to her apartment with items implicating Dunn. If so, I bet more than just the wrapper was planted but not discovered by RPD. This is far-fetched and has a lot of holes in it with what little I know. Perhaps his defense knows more and can make it somewhat believable.

Jealous wife scenario. . . wouldn't there need to be some proof/testimony of Dunn and Nona having an actual relationship? The force that was used seemed to indicate a male, but hey, sexual assault was not considered before and now it is. Then there is the unknown perpetrator that set up Dunn. . . guess they could go after any number of people BUT, like in the last trial, their case may hinge merely on circumstantial evidence (such as with Troy York).

The jury in Kevin's case did not find the bloody palm print enough to convict, but could it secure reasonable doubt now? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see if the defense can find someone else to implicate. I do doubt we will se the same dirty tactics as before. Such as, the way JM was thrown out to the media merely to bait for info. So far, so good.


MOO

[sololobo]

Jealous wife scenario. . . wouldn't there need to be some proof/testimony of Dunn and Nona having an actual relationship? The force that was used seemed to indicate a male, but hey, sexual assault was not considered before and now it is. Then there is the unknown perpetrator that set up Dunn. . . guess they could go after any number of people BUT, like in the last trial, their case may hinge merely on circumstantial evidence (such as with Troy York).

The jury in Kevin's case did not find the bloody palm print enough to convict, but could it secure reasonable doubt now? I don't know. We'll have to wait and see if the defense can find someone else to implicate. I do doubt we will se the same dirty tactics as before. Such as, the way JM was thrown out to the media merely to bait for info. So far, so good.


MOO

I'm sure Dunn was not the only married man in the complex who would have found Nona very attractive. Any wife or girlfriend could be used by the defense. However, the ferociosness of the attack implies the strength of a man rather than a woman but who knows.

[FDInLaw]

I'm sure Dunn was not the only married man in the complex who would have found Nona very attractive. Any wife or girlfriend could be used by the defense. However, the ferociosness of the attack implies the strength of a man rather than a woman but who knows.What do we know the demographics of the apartment complex at the time of the murder? How many viable options are there even?

I agree that we should be on the look out for other possible persons of interest that the defense might use.

[lorettalockhorn]

I think I've figured out what bugs me about the DNA on the condom wrapper leading to Dunn's arrest (not sure I can explain it, though).

Kevin was found not guilty and in time, if he held his head up, worked hard, kept his nose clean, and didn't exhibit anger or mal-intent to the world in general and women in particular, the stigma of his trial might/probably would have faded. Of course that didn't happen because it wasn't long before he was in trouble. Again.

At any rate, his attorneys, not satisfied with the verdict (however it came about) took it upon themselves to (presumably) get Dunn's DNA and got to great lengths and expense to match it to the condom wrapper, or vice versa. Now, I don't have a problem with LE or The State gathering thrown away DNA, but I do have a problem with Joe Blow doing that. And I really have to wonder what made Robbins et al focus on Dunn. Was it Kevin? Did he know about Dunn?

IF the investigation was already underway and simply wasn't announced until the DNA was identified is one thing. But for any armchair detective to take it upon himself to work a case that forces an investigation gives me the heebie jeebies. Does an officer of the court have the presumption of being a legitimate charge for chain of custody? How did Robbins come by the condom wrapper? What is the chain of custody?

I have no idea what Dunn's defense will be, but I can see that the way Robbins went about this whole rigamarole could be inflammatory to the jury. I think the prosecution is going to have to be very careful in how they explain this piece of evidence and the findings to the court.

[Mommyto2]

I think I've figured out what bugs me about the DNA on the condom wrapper leading to Dunn's arrest (not sure I can explain it, though).

Kevin was found not guilty and in time, if he held his head up, worked hard, kept his nose clean, and didn't exhibit anger or mal-intent to the world in general and women in particular, the stigma of his trial might/probably would have faded. Of course that didn't happen because it wasn't long before he was in trouble. Again.

At any rate, his attorneys, not satisfied with the verdict (however it came about) took it upon themselves to (presumably) get Dunn's DNA and got to great lengths and expense to match it to the condom wrapper, or vice versa. Now, I don't have a problem with LE or The State gathering thrown away DNA, but I do have a problem with Joe Blow doing that. And I really have to wonder what made Robbins et al focus on Dunn. Was it Kevin? Did he know about Dunn?
IF the investigation was already underway and simply wasn't announced until the DNA was identified is one thing. But for any armchair detective to take it upon himself to work a case that forces an investigation gives me the heebie jeebies. Does an officer of the court have the presumption of being a legitimate charge for chain of custody? How did Robbins come by the condom wrapper? What is the chain of custody?



I have no idea what Dunn's defense will be, but I can see that the way Robbins went about this whole rigamarole could be inflammatory to the jury. I think the prosecution is going to have to be very careful in how they explain this piece of evidence and the findings to the court.

You know I agree with that. I wonder being from the same town if they knew of each other before. Maybe had bad history. If Robbins though thought it could have been Dunn why wouldn't they have brought it up in KJ's trial? You know and I never got why they had to lie to get his DNA. It should have been on file with the state crime lab already from his felony charge. They thought him and his brother had broke in some where before. Well wouldn't his brother share the same mitrochrondrial DNA. Surely his brother visited his apartment. Maybe his brother could be the person the defense goes after. It's happened before in trials. But as always JMO

[lorettalockhorn]

You know I agree with that. I wonder being from the same town if they knew of each other before. Maybe had bad history. If Robbins though thought it could have been Dunn why wouldn't they have brought it up in KJ's trial? You know and I never got why they had to lie to get his DNA. It should have been on file with the state crime lab already from his felony charge. They thought him and his brother had broke in some where before. Well wouldn't his brother share the same mitrochrondrial DNA. Surely his brother visited his apartment. Maybe his brother could be the person the defense goes after. It's happened before in trials. But as always JMO

If Dunn was an original suspect whose alibi held up, I suppose it's possible that LE gave the defense his name at some point, but wonder if it was before or after the trial. Looks to me like he would have been a much better candidate to blame than for instance Jeremy Martin who was libeled and slandered all over the place.

To my knowledge, AR doesn't file DNA for crimes other than sex offenses; Dunn was not in the registry that I could ever find, but then again, the assault/attempted murder wasn't labeled a sex crime. It seems like in one of the early news stories after Dunn was arrested, there was some information about Dunn's brother giving a sample.

[jeremiads]

I've posted about this before, but I feel like I need to reiterate one of my biggest problems with pointing the finger at Dunn, playing up his past, and then going silent.

I know that the initial investigation had problems, but I have my own problem believing that it was so inept that when putting as much pressure as they did on me--someone who hadn't even seen Nona in many months and had nothing incriminating--that they wouldn't have put the same pressure on Dunn, an even more obvious person to look at considering his proximity and past.

That has sat wrong with me since this was all announced. I can't fathom how anyone can honestly feel good about this new investigation.

[SaraSidle]

I've posted about this before, but I feel like I need to reiterate one of my biggest problems with pointing the finger at Dunn, playing up his past, and then going silent.

I know that the initial investigation had problems, but I have my own problem believing that it was so inept that when putting as much pressure as they did on me--someone who hadn't even seen Nona in many months and had nothing incriminating--that they wouldn't have put the same pressure on Dunn, an even more obvious person to look at considering his proximity and past.

That has sat wrong with me since this was all announced. I can't fathom how anyone can honestly feel good about this new investigation.

Way new approach that everyone will hate. Gary and Nona were having an affair...............Physically. His girlfriend found out and killed Nona and set up Gary.........Just a thought.........sara

[jeremiads]

Way new approach that everyone will hate. Gary and Nona were having an affair...............Physically. His girlfriend found out and killed Nona and set up Gary.........Just a thought.........saraWe might as well say that a unicorn was involved if we're going to start with baseless conjecture.

[FDInLaw]

Way new approach that everyone will hate. Gary and Nona were having an affair...............Physically. His girlfriend found out and killed Nona and set up Gary.........Just a thought.........sara

At the time Gary was married to a lady with two kids, something that was arranged back when he faced trial for the Bona Dea incident.

The relationship dynamics and possibilities are going to be explored at some point (whether we like it or not). Nona struggled with the sexual abuse she endured as a small child at the hand of her own Father. As is often the case, promiscuous behavior was an outlet for her pain IMO. I really don't know if it is possible for Nona and Dunn to have some sort of relationship. . . but, the advent of her brutal death makes it imperative that we at least ask the question. I mean no disrespect to Nona in any way. :rose:

[TJEddie]

FWIW.......

"McQuary declined to give any specifics on the case, such as whether Dunn and Dirksmeyer, 19, knew each other.

But one of Jones’ attorneys, Michael Robbins of Russellville, said in a telephone interview that Dunn, a construction worker, and Dirksmeyer were not romantically involved.

Robbins said Dunn lived in the same small apartment complex as Dirksmeyer at the time of the crime. “I don’t think they knew each other personally,” he said.

Robbins said Jones, now 22, also did not know Dunn."

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/235043/

[FDInLaw]

FWIW.......

"McQuary declined to give any specifics on the case, such as whether Dunn and Dirksmeyer, 19, knew each other.

But one of Jones’ attorneys, Michael Robbins of Russellville, said in a telephone interview that Dunn, a construction worker, and Dirksmeyer were not romantically involved.

Robbins said Dunn lived in the same small apartment complex as Dirksmeyer at the time of the crime. “I don’t think they knew each other personally,” he said.

Robbins said Jones, now 22, also did not know Dunn."

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/235043/Thank you for posting MR's opinion on the matter. Personally, I don't put much stock in anything Robbins states, but others might find it valuable. :seeya:

[TJEddie]

Revisiting an earlier topic......

"Robbins said the Russellville Police Department made “an incredible blunder,” an “unbelievable” one, in not arresting Dunn instead of Jones. “They jumped to a conclusion, and when some evidence didn’t fit their case against Kevin, they ignored it,” he said."

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/235043/

"McQuary stressed that Gibbons “was not given information that we have been able to uncover...."

http://www.nwarktimes.com/adg/News/235428/

There was some speculation early in this thread that RPD had perhaps actively withheld information about Dunn from Gibbons. IMO, the above quotes lend some support to that notion. Robbins' statements seem to suggest that evidence against Dunn existed even from the start.

[FDInLaw]

Question. . . was Seth Irwin apart of KJ's defense team early on? He was Dunn's defense attorney for the Bona Dea trial. If so, small world and all that.


https://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=2166&Search=gary%20dunn

[TJEddie]

Thank you for posting MR's opinion on the matter. Personally, I don't put much stock in anything Robbins states, but others might find it valuable. :seeya:

Duly noted. You can count me among those who place a great deal of value on Robbins' statements in this matter. To each is own. :)

[FDInLaw]

Duly noted. You can count me among those who place a great deal of value on Robbins' statements in this matter. To each is own. :)

He will be delighted with your words I'm sure. . .

[lorettalockhorn]

FWIW.......

"McQuary declined to give any specifics on the case, such as whether Dunn and Dirksmeyer, 19, knew each other.

But one of Jones’ attorneys, Michael Robbins of Russellville, said in a telephone interview that Dunn, a construction worker, and Dirksmeyer were not romantically involved.

Robbins said Dunn lived in the same small apartment complex as Dirksmeyer at the time of the crime. “I don’t think they knew each other personally,” he said.

Robbins said Jones, now 22, also did not know Dunn."

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/235043/

Gee, does Robbins not have any cases of his own to blather on about? Or is it that he just can't resist the urge to give an interview? Who's calling this interloper for his opinion anyway?

But thanks for posting.

[lorettalockhorn]

Revisiting an earlier topic......

"Robbins said the Russellville Police Department made “an incredible blunder,” an “unbelievable” one, in not arresting Dunn instead of Jones. “They jumped to a conclusion, and when some evidence didn’t fit their case against Kevin, they ignored it,” he said."

http://www.nwanews.com/adg/News/235043/

"McQuary stressed that Gibbons “was not given information that we have been able to uncover...."

http://www.nwarktimes.com/adg/News/235428/

There was some speculation early in this thread that RPD had perhaps actively withheld information about Dunn from Gibbons. IMO, the above quotes lend some support to that notion. Robbins' statements seem to suggest that evidence against Dunn existed even from the start.

You would think that Gibbons would be well aware of Dunn's potential for violence, given that he prosecuted him for attempted murder.

At any rate, I have a hard time believing that RPD would make fools of themselves by trying to unairly pin Nona's murder on an overpriveleged golden boy rather than someone who already had a record and likely less of a support system.

[lorettalockhorn]

Question. . . was Seth Irwin apart of KJ's defense team early on? He was Dunn's defense attorney for the Bona Dea trial. If so, small world and all that.


https://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=2166&Search=gary%20dunn

It does seem like Seth was mentioned early on. Hard to know about Seth, or what he might do to dig himself out of his own troubles, or what his people might post about KJ's case. His father probably spins in his grave, God rest his soul.

[TJEddie]

Question. . . was Seth Irwin apart of KJ's defense team early on? He was Dunn's defense attorney for the Bona Dea trial. If so, small world and all that.


https://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=2166&Search=gary%20dunn

A quick Google search on Kevin Jones Seth Irwin Dirksmeyer only turned up one reference that I could find.......a rumor reported by dtbh on page 3 of this thread:

"I heard that Seth Irwin was the local attorney, but that he also had someone from out of town......"

If it's anything more than a rumor, maybe someone else can find some documentation.

[TJEddie]

At any rate, I have a hard time believing that RPD would make fools of themselves by trying to unairly pin Nona's murder on an overpriveleged golden boy rather than someone who already had a record and likely less of a support system.

I don't know. You never know what might set a policeman off and make him dig in his heels against a particular suspect......I guess sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Anyway, I've never thought RPD was just looking for an easy out.

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't know. You never know what might set a policeman off and make him dig in his heels against a particular suspect......I guess sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Anyway, I've never thought RPD was just looking for an easy out.

Let's hope not. That would be as ridiculous and as frightening as Robbins running around playing Secret Agent Man.

When I dogpiled Seth Irwin Kevin Jones, I found the same post that you did. I could have sworn that I read something about Irwin in conjunction with the case somewhere else though. So much time has gone by. I hope the principles in this case have a better memory than I do!

[FDInLaw]

I don't know. You never know what might set a policeman off and make him dig in his heels against a particular suspect......I guess sometimes they're right, sometimes they're wrong. Anyway, I've never thought RPD was just looking for an easy out.

Sometimes LE is wrong, but that does not mean it was intentional. At this point, I choose to believe that the RPD did a sloppy but honest job (not sure they even realized at the time that they were making mistakes). I will need more evidence to convince me otherwise.

[TJEddie]

Sometimes LE is wrong, but that does not mean it was intentional. At this point, I choose to believe that the RPD did a sloppy but honest job (not sure they even realized at the time that they were making mistakes). I will need more evidence to convince me otherwise.

This seems to be a bit of a gray area. A bit of Googling turned up this abstract:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=215728

From my reading of it, it appears to me that a prosecutor has legal obligation to ensure that police submit relevant and possibly exculpatory evidence to the prosecutor. However, unless things have changed since 2000, there appear to be few, if any, regulations in place to assist the prosecutor in carrying out this legal obligation.

According to the abstract, even police failure to disclose does not let the prosecutor off the hook on his legal obligation to disclose. So if Robbins'* and McQuary's statements can be taken at face value, it appears to me that RPD's failure to disclose was at best unethical and put Gibbons in legal jeopardy. McQuary seems to be giving Gibbons a pass on it, and rightfully so, IMO. To my knowledge, McQuary has made no public statement on the actions of RPD in this case. Whether the actions of RPD are even part of McQuary's investigation is an unknown......although McQuary has been involved in some high profile cases involving LE misconduct.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm just glad that this case was kept alive rather than being allowed to die a slow death in the "we tried" file. It looks like a lot went undone the first time around.

(*Your previously indicated reluctance to accept Robbins' statements at face value duly noted and respected.)

[FDInLaw]

This seems to be a bit of a gray area. A bit of Googling turned up this abstract:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=215728

From my reading of it, it appears to me that a prosecutor has legal obligation to ensure that police submit relevant and possibly exculpatory evidence to the prosecutor. However, unless things have changed since 2000, there appear to be few, if any, regulations in place to assist the prosecutor in carrying out this legal obligation.

According to the abstract, even police failure to disclose does not let the prosecutor off the hook on his legal obligation to disclose. So if Robbins'* and McQuary's statements can be taken at face value, it appears to me that RPD's failure to disclose was at best unethical and put Gibbons in legal jeopardy. McQuary seems to be giving Gibbons a pass on it, and rightfully so, IMO. To my knowledge, McQuary has made no public statement on the actions of RPD in this case. Whether the actions of RPD are even part of McQuary's investigation is an unknown......although McQuary has been involved in some high profile cases involving LE misconduct.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm just glad that this case was kept alive rather than being allowed to die a slow death in the "we tried" file. It looks like a lot went undone the first time around.

(*Your previously indicated reluctance to accept Robbins' statements at face value duly noted and respected.)
If this is in fact a serious case of misconduct, we may well see another trial where the RPD is focused on more than the actual defendant. Sadly, irregardless of guilt, we may see the same outcome. Just my pessimistic opinion.

I'm still not convinced that the RPD intentionally did anything wrong though. Time will tell. Be mindful of the fact that Robbins made incriminating comments about JM and then later admitted that he didn't believe JM had anything to do with Nona's death. I just don't trust the guy. Should we? He is being paid to make Jones look good. . . period.

MOO

[lorettalockhorn]

This seems to be a bit of a gray area. A bit of Googling turned up this abstract:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=215728

From my reading of it, it appears to me that a prosecutor has legal obligation to ensure that police submit relevant and possibly exculpatory evidence to the prosecutor. However, unless things have changed since 2000, there appear to be few, if any, regulations in place to assist the prosecutor in carrying out this legal obligation.

According to the abstract, even police failure to disclose does not let the prosecutor off the hook on his legal obligation to disclose. So if Robbins'* and McQuary's statements can be taken at face value, it appears to me that RPD's failure to disclose was at best unethical and put Gibbons in legal jeopardy. McQuary seems to be giving Gibbons a pass on it, and rightfully so, IMO. To my knowledge, McQuary has made no public statement on the actions of RPD in this case. Whether the actions of RPD are even part of McQuary's investigation is an unknown......although McQuary has been involved in some high profile cases involving LE misconduct.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out. I'm just glad that this case was kept alive rather than being allowed to die a slow death in the "we tried" file. It looks like a lot went undone the first time around.

(*Your previously indicated reluctance to accept Robbins' statements at face value duly noted and respected.)

Thanks for the link! I'm a little curious as to how a prosecutor can be held responsible for whatever information police submit to him when they aren't under his aegis or on his payroll or part of his department, etc.

[TJEddie]

If this is in fact a serious case of misconduct, we may well see another trial where the RPD is focused on more than the actual defendant. Sadly, irregardless of guilt, we may see the same outcome. Just my pessimistic opinion.

IF official misconduct occurred in the first investigation, I don't think it would have anything to do with the new investigation or the current case against Dunn. I wouldn't expect it to have an impact on the trial. Something like that would be dealt with separately and through different channels.

I'm still not convinced that the RPD intentionally did anything wrong though. Time will tell. Be mindful of the fact that Robbins made incriminating comments about JM and then later admitted that he didn't believe JM had anything to do with Nona's death. I just don't trust the guy. Should we? He is being paid to make Jones look good. . . period.

MOO

I'm not convinced that RPD intentionally did anything wrong either. But I'm probably more suspicious of it than you. Agreed......time will tell.

As for Robbins' motivations......yes, he was paid to make Kevin look good when he was acting as Kevin's defense attorney, but is Robbins still on the Jones family payroll? It was my understanding that they were pretty much wiped out by the trial. I'll look into that......seems I remember some quotes.

[FDInLaw]

IF official misconduct occurred in the first investigation, I don't think it would have anything to do with the new investigation or the current case against Dunn. I wouldn't expect it to have an impact on the trial. Something like that would be dealt with separately and through different channels.



I'm not convinced that RPD intentionally did anything wrong either. But I'm probably more suspicious of it than you. Agreed......time will tell.

As for Robbins' motivations......yes, he was paid to make Kevin look good when he was acting as Kevin's defense attorney, but is Robbins still on the Jones family payroll? It was my understanding that they were pretty much wiped out by the trial. I'll look into that......seems I remember some quotes.

Is there something to prevent Dunn's defense team from using this if it suits their client? I'd like some reassurance.

[TJEddie]

Thanks for the link! I'm a little curious as to how a prosecutor can be held responsible for whatever information police submit to him when they aren't under his aegis or on his payroll or part of his department, etc.

I agree. I think that was the issue being addressed in the article.

(Extra points for your use of the word "aegis," btw.)

[TJEddie]

Is there something to prevent Dunn's defense team from using this if it suits their client? I'd like some reassurance.

Short of getting naked and dancing in the courtroom, I don't think defense attorneys can be prevented from doing much of anything. If McQuary & Co. have a solid, properly constructed case, based on a new and independent investigation, I don't see how LE behavior in the first investigation could be used as an effective defense. Any thoughts?

[FDInLaw]

Short of getting naked and dancing in the courtroom, I don't think defense attorneys can be prevented from doing much of anything. If McQuary & Co. have a solid, properly constructed case, based on a new and independent investigation, I don't see how LE behavior in the first investigation could be used as an effective defense. Any thoughts?

So, in other words, you just don't think they will use it? Huh. What, in your opinion, is Dunn's best shot at reasonable doubt from what we know now?

[TJEddie]

So, in other words, you just don't think they will use it? Huh. What, in your opinion, is Dunn's best shot at reasonable doubt from what we know now?

I have no idea what Dunn's defense will be because I have no idea what evidence exists against him. I do tend to believe that this will be a whole new ball game and that what did or didn't happen in the first investigation will be of little import. Just my opinion.

[SaraSidle]

At the time Gary was married to a lady with two kids, something that was arranged back when he faced trial for the Bona Dea incident.

The relationship dynamics and possibilities are going to be explored at some point (whether we like it or not). Nona struggled with the sexual abuse she endured as a small child at the hand of her own Father. As is often the case, promiscuous behavior was an outlet for her pain IMO. I really don't know if it is possible for Nona and Dunn to have some sort of relationship. . . but, the advent of her brutal death makes it imperative that we at least ask the question. I mean no disrespect to Nona in any way. :rose:

I certainly meant no disrespect for Nona. we all make mistakes in judgement of character and so forth. Nona was a wonderful woman. but she was also a human being like the rest of us. I am just trying to understand this case. I did not mean to offend anyone..........IMO sara

[The R]

I've posted about this before, but I feel like I need to reiterate one of my biggest problems with pointing the finger at Dunn, playing up his past, and then going silent.

I know that the initial investigation had problems, but I have my own problem believing that it was so inept that when putting as much pressure as they did on me--someone who hadn't even seen Nona in many months and had nothing incriminating--that they wouldn't have put the same pressure on Dunn, an even more obvious person to look at considering his proximity and past.

That has sat wrong with me since this was all announced. I can't fathom how anyone can honestly feel good about this new investigation.




Do you fear that Dunn could be railroaded basically?

Thanks,
R

[Mommyto2]

If Dunn was an original suspect whose alibi held up, I suppose it's possible that LE gave the defense his name at some point, but wonder if it was before or after the trial. Looks to me like he would have been a much better candidate to blame than for instance Jeremy Martin who was libeled and slandered all over the place.

To my knowledge, AR doesn't file DNA for crimes other than sex offenses; Dunn was not in the registry that I could ever find, but then again, the assault/attempted murder wasn't labeled a sex crime. It seems like in one of the early news stories after Dunn was arrested, there was some information about Dunn's brother giving a sample.

All convicted felons have their DNA taken in Arkansas. It is taken either at court/by the prison/or by the Parole/Probation Officer.The only reason they wouldn't have it on file is because of the huge backlog in Little Rock.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cj/dnadatabanks.htm

[lorettalockhorn]

All convicted felons have their DNA taken in Arkansas. It is taken either at court/by the prison/or by the Parole/Probation Officer.The only reason they wouldn't have it on file is because of the huge backlog in Little Rock.
http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cj/dnadatabanks.htm

I had no idea that AR adds all felons to a database. Thanks for the link.

Searched high and low for Dunn in the sex offenders database and didn't find him, but that made sense.

[Mommyto2]

And that just adds another mystery for me. Most lawyers would just submit the DNA they found to the state crime lab for analysis. Robbins instead went after Dunn. Someone or something had to tip him off even before the DNA evidence. I wonder if they still submitted it to see if it hit any other convicted felons(assuming it's mitochrondrial DNA). I have a hard time believing that KJ and GD didn't know of each other. It's a small town. Very small town. They aren't that far in age.

[lorettalockhorn]

If the defense doesn't hammer away at how this DNA was handled, I'm going to be very disappointed, and frankly pissed off. I would like to think that every Tom Dick and Harry can't get their hands on crime scene evidence or police files, etc. And I get that LE can surreptitiously collect DNA to be tested, but for a citizen to do that and have it accepted by the court is no less hinky than someone having planted the matching DNA evidence to begin with.

[FDInLaw]

Since the arrest, Special Prosecutor Jack McQuary, appointed at the request of 5th Judicial District Prosecutor David Gibbons, has remained silent on how investigators obtained DNA evidence linking Dunn — Dirksmeyer’s onetime neighbor — to the murder.
In February, however, Michael Robbins of Dover, a lawyer for Kevin Jones — Dirksmeyer’s boyfriend and the man previously tried for and acquitted of the crime — announced defense investigators matched DNA from the condom wrapper to a “viable suspect” in the case. He said defense lawyers gave the material to prosecutors.
Immediately following Dunn’s arrest, Robbins told The Associated Press the defense team was aware of Dunn’s connection to Dirksmeyer, but only recently obtained a DNA sample from him. He declined to specify how the defense obtained the sample, the AP reported.
In an interview from her home Thursday, Martha Dunn said she did not know any specifics about the DNA match investigators said implicated her son in the murder, nor why it has taken more than two years to match a DNA sample found on the condom wrapper to GARY DUNN — whose DNA has presumably been recorded in a state database at least since his 2003 second-degree battery conviction. But she said she did recall another instance in which DNA was mentioned in connection with her son.
Sometime last year, Martha Dunn said Dover Marshal Rod Pfeifer asked both Gary and his brother, Jamie Dunn, to come to the Dover Marshal’s Office for questioning regarding several items, including a gun, missing from the Dunn residence.
“Pfeifer called me and said they wanted to talk to Gary and Jamie,” Martha said. “He said he didn’t want to get the information off the computer because it would run a red flag up with Gary’s parole officer.”She said Dover authorities took DNA samples from both Gary and Jamie when they were brought in for questioning.
“Gary told me that’s when they took it,” she said. “I wasn’t allowed to go back there with him. Why they took DNA, you’d have to talk to Gary. They have both Jamie and Gary’s DNA and fingerprints on record.”
Pfeifer said there is an open investigation into the thefts, and would not disclose further details, while GARY DUNN has not responded to a written request for a jailhouse interview.
When asked if it was standard procedure to procure DNA samples in the investigation of thefts, Pfeifer said the Criminal Investigation Department (CID) at the Marshal’s Office determines if and when samples are taken.
“That was up to my CID detective, Todd Steffy,” Pfeifer said. “What was in the initial report may have led him to believe he needed to take [a DNA sample].”
When asked if Robbins, who serves as Dover city attorney, requested the sample, Pfeifer issued an unequivocal denial.
“Seeing that it’s a case we’re investigating here, I don’t know why Michael Robbins would have even asked for it,” Pfeifer said.
He said he did not know if Robbins had access to the sample. Robbins, when contacted Friday, declined comment on the matter.
Martha Dunn questioned Robbins’ involvement in the continuing investigation into the homicide.
“Why are they pushing this and trying to convict someone else? It should be the police and the judge and whoever else, but Kevin Jones’ lawyers shouldn’t be involved,” she said.



http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=19366&Search=gary%20dunn

[FDInLaw]

I certainly meant no disrespect for Nona. we all make mistakes in judgement of character and so forth. Nona was a wonderful woman. but she was also a human being like the rest of us. I am just trying to understand this case. I did not mean to offend anyone..........IMO sara

I was agreeing with you. . . the questions do need to be asked. Nona had a bright future ahead of her, in part because of the courageous steps she took to overcome her past. There were messy elements, but they don't change who she was and what she was trying to achieve. To find justice for her, we do need to be open to all possible scenarios. MOO

[The R]

If the defense doesn't hammer away at how this DNA was handled, I'm going to be very disappointed, and frankly pissed off. I would like to think that every Tom Dick and Harry can't get their hands on crime scene evidence or police files, etc. And I get that LE can surreptitiously collect DNA to be tested, but for a citizen to do that and have it accepted by the court is no less hinky than someone having planted the matching DNA evidence to begin with.

You know, I gotta agree with you. The article I just read said Dunn was ruled out after he passed a polygraph which means he was suspected originally. Why in the he** didn't the state do a DNA comparison then? To me this would have to be a rather large issue in a trial. I can't really imagine a judge not ruling in Dunn's favor on a motion to suppress according to this info. All I could figure is maybe there's more, a whole lot more? :shrug:


ALLMO,
R

[SaraSidle]

You know, I gotta agree with you. The article I just read said Dunn was ruled out after he passed a polygraph which means he was suspected originally. Why in the he** didn't the state do a DNA comparison then? To me this would have to be a rather large issue in a trial. I can't really imagine a judge not ruling in Dunn's favor on a motion to suppress according to this info. All I could figure is maybe there's more, a whole lot more? :shrug:


ALLMO,
R

That is too strange R. I never knew that before. IMO sara

[jeremiads]

Do you fear that Dunn could be railroaded basically?
I don't think it will have anything to do with Dunn other than he's involved and having fingers pointed at him. And Robbins' involvement in it makes a lot of sense to me.

Kevin's defense team tried to make me look shady and questionable too by bringing up such ridiculous things as specific tastes out of my wide variety of musical interests, as one example. Hell, I bet they're kicking themselves that they didn't find out that I stay current with Dungeons and Dragons even though I don't have the time to play something like that anymore.

Now a member of Kevin's defense team, for some reason (Robbins), keeps showing up in connection with Dunn. It's not some coincidence.

I'm just afraid that at some point, it's no longer about evidence and all about image and wanting a conviction. Dunn could just be another example in the vein of the West Memphis 3.

But like I always say, if they have evidence, that's great. But I haven't seen a probable cause statement or anything other than that stupid condom wrapper that even during Kevin's trial I said didn't matter when it came to murder evidence.

[SaraSidle]

I don't think it will have anything to do with Dunn other than he's involved and having fingers pointed at him. And Robbins' involvement in it makes a lot of sense to me.

Kevin's defense team tried to make me look shady and questionable too by bringing up such ridiculous things as specific tastes out of my wide variety of musical interests, as one example. Hell, I bet they're kicking themselves that they didn't find out that I stay current with Dungeons and Dragons even though I don't have the time to play something like that anymore.

Now a member of Kevin's defense team, for some reason (Robbins), keeps showing up in connection with Dunn. It's not some coincidence.

I'm just afraid that at some point, it's no longer about evidence and all about image and wanting a conviction. Dunn could just be another example in the vein of the West Memphis 3.

But like I always say, if they have evidence, that's great. But I haven't seen a probable cause statement or anything other than that stupid condom wrapper that even during Kevin's trial I said didn't matter when it came to murder evidence.

Jeremiads what about the prints on the base of the lamp? And how can 2 different DNAS be on one wrapper??? not trying to be gross but that is very confusing to me. I want like heck to put the person in prison for life for hurting Nona but it seems so difficult to keep it simple. She was a great person. IMO sara

[jeremiads]

Jeremiads what about the prints on the base of the lamp? And how can 2 different DNAS be on one wrapper??? not trying to be gross but that is very confusing to me. I want like heck to put the person in prison for life for hurting Nona but it seems so difficult to keep it simple. She was a great person. IMO saraI don't know. None of us know about the prints unless they've been released on who they matched.

As for two DNA sets on the wrapper, well.. I haven't heard of that one, but it's not like the wrapper being planted is a new theory.

[FDInLaw]

I don't know. None of us know about the prints unless they've been released on who they matched.

As for two DNA sets on the wrapper, well.. I haven't heard of that one, but it's not like the wrapper being planted is a new theory.SaraSidle meant that dna belong to both Dunn and Nona was found on the wrapper. . . this weakens the planted theory IMO. Mind you, it only stregthens the trigger theory if nothing else actually connects Dunn to the murder. MOO

[lorettalockhorn]

SaraSidle meant that dna belong to both Dunn and Nona was found on the wrapper. . . this weakens the planted theory IMO. Mind you, it only stregthens the trigger theory if nothing else actually connects Dunn to the murder. MOO

Is the source on this wrapper semen, sweat, blood? How did it get there? Does it make sense that it got there? Is there a fingerprint on the wrapper from either Dunn or Nona to indicate that one of them placed it on the kitchen counter? And it will matter to me what the actual source of the DNA is (on the wrapper). For instance, I can imagine one partner tearing the wrapper open with his/her teeth and leaving saliva, but not both parties.

[FDInLaw]

Is the source on this wrapper semen, sweat, blood? How did it get there? Does it make sense that it got there? Is there a fingerprint on the wrapper from either Dunn or Nona to indicate that one of them placed it on the kitchen counter? And it will matter to me what the actual source of the DNA is (on the wrapper). For instance, I can imagine one partner tearing the wrapper open with his/her teeth and leaving saliva, but not both parties.

My guess is teeth for Dunn. . . from reading up on the type of dna that was found. Don't know the type of dna that was determined to be Nona's.

(See the forensic study room)

[jeremiads]

SaraSidle meant that dna belong to both Dunn and Nona was found on the wrapper. . . this weakens the planted theory IMO. Mind you, it only stregthens the trigger theory if nothing else actually connects Dunn to the murder. MOOOh, right. I agree with you.

Also, avatar change. (Loretta - the comparisons started a few years ago. Been getting it a LOT lately. I love the show, so I'm not going to complain. :) )

[FDInLaw]

Oh, right. I agree with you.

Also, avatar change. (Loretta - the comparisons started a few years ago. Been getting it a LOT lately. I love the show, so I'm not going to complain. :) )Where have I seen that pic before? ;)

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh, right. I agree with you.

Also, avatar change. (Loretta - the comparisons started a few years ago. Been getting it a LOT lately. I love the show, so I'm not going to complain. :) )

Oh I love it too. Great ensemble. And the titles and narration are a hoot. And that car!! That's what's really hot!

[FDInLaw]

The whole kitchen counter thing does not sit well with me. I don't get it. Yes, it is near where the body was found, but not all that close. . .

Any thoughts????


Loretta, your question about how is it that both their dna is there is excellent. . . guess it would make more sense to me if the wrapper was on the floor near the body. . .then, I'd guess Nona's dna was in blood.

[lorettalockhorn]

The whole kitchen counter thing does not sit well with me. I don't get it. Yes, it is near where the body was found, but not all that close. . .

Any thoughts????


Loretta, your question about how is it that both their dna is there is excellent. . . guess it would make more sense to me if the wrapper was on the floor near the body. . .then, I'd guess Nona's dna was in blood.

I hope The State will spell that out for us and the jury. For many reasons, the actual source is very important to me.

I reckon we could assume that Dunn set the wrapper on the counter meaning to take it with him, but what? Forgot? Why wouldn't he have put it in his pocket instead of laying it on the counter? He maybe took the condom but not the wrapper? Was he wearing the condom on the way out? Or was it successfully flushed?

[TJEddie]

My guess is teeth for Dunn. . . from reading up on the type of dna that was found. Don't know the type of dna that was determined to be Nona's.

(See the forensic study room)

Has it been reported that mitochondrial dna was found on the condom wrapper? In the first trial, it was reportedly y-chromosome dna that was found. As for the follow-up investigation, the only sources I've found say that Robbins and McQuary have declined to identify the type of dna that was used to make a match to Dunn. Did I miss something?

[FDInLaw]

I hope The State will spell that out for us and the jury. For many reasons, the actual source is very important to me.

I reckon we could assume that Dunn set the wrapper on the counter meaning to take it with him, but what? Forgot? Why wouldn't he have put it in his pocket instead of laying it on the counter? He maybe took the condom but not the wrapper? Was he wearing the condom on the way out? Or was it successfully flushed?

Thinking about it, if Nona's dna is in blood that might really stick with jurors. JMO

[The R]

Thinking about it, if Nona's dna is in blood that might really stick with jurors. JMO


I'd thought about the sequence of things if Dunn was involved. It could almost be said that he would attack first and then sexually assault if what he did at Bona Dea was followed pattern-wise. He reportedly hit that victim with a stick and then jumped on her. I could see how Nona's blood and Dunn's saliva could be on the wrapper if that's the case.

Of course as has been said before, all this is strictly conjecture.

ALLMO,
R

[FDInLaw]

Has it been reported that mitochondrial dna was found on the condom wrapper? In the first trial, it was reportedly y-chromosome dna that was found. As for the follow-up investigation, the only sources I've found say that Robbins and McQuary have declined to identify the type of dna that was used to make a match to Dunn. Did I miss something?

No. . . I might be off. . . let me dig. I could have mistakenly thought that they were the same thing. :o Glad you jumped in.

[Mommyto2]

“He said he didn’t want to get the information off the computer because it would run a red flag up with Gary’s parole officer.”
This statement doesn't sit well with me. Wouldn't you want his parole officer to be aware that they were looking at him. So the prosecuter, Robbins, and Parole Officer could communicate just in case GD ran off or things of that nature. Plus, the only time Parole officers are aware of police contact is when their license/name is ran in NCIC/ACIC not from the state crime lab.

[FDInLaw]

Following their release of information suggesting experts may have found a match for DNA found on a condom wrapper at the scene of a 19-year-old college student’s violent death, attorneys for Kevin Jones — the man tried for, and acquitted of, Nona Dirksmeyer’s murder — are now leaving more questions than answers.
One attorney, Michael Robbins of Dover, who issued the release just four days before a program featuring the murder was to air on national television, declined in an interview Thursday to specify what type of DNA was used in making the match. “I think it’ll be revealed soon enough,” Robbins said.There are three types of DNA — nuclear, MITOCHONDRIAL and Y-chromosome. The type of DNA is significant in that only nuclear DNA is unique to each individual. Conversely, MITOCHONDRIAL and Y-chromosome DNA are linked maternally and paternally, respectively, and can therefore only be used to exclude — not include — a particular person, according to expert testimony given at Jones’ trial.
http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17630&Search=mitochondrial

[lorettalockhorn]

I'd thought about the sequence of things if Dunn was involved. It could almost be said that he would attack first and then sexually assault if what he did at Bona Dea was followed pattern-wise. He reportedly hit that victim with a stick and then jumped on her. I could see how Nona's blood and Dunn's saliva could be on the wrapper if that's the case.

Of course as has been said before, all this is strictly conjecture.

ALLMO,
R

Nona was face down from the assault. And wasn't most of the pooled blood around her head? Was the attempted assault sodomy? Why would he open the condom wrapper near her head? Well, now that you think about it, sodomy does have two meanings.

[TJEddie]

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17630&Search=mitochondrial

Thanks for the link, FD. I was also drawn to this statement by Kenneth Johnson:

"I don’t think [the trigger] theory’s going to make any difference when all this comes to light,” Johnson said, declining to further explain his statement."

This statement, coupled with one by Robbins that I posted yesterday about there being enough evidence against Dunn that RPD should have arrested and charged him the first time around, lead me to believe that there is much more evidence against Dunn than just the condom wrapper. In fact, I'm wondering now if perhaps the dna match was just y-chromosome.....not enough to positively identify Dunn, but maybe enough to tip the scales and convince Gibbons that the case did indeed need to be re-investigated.

As I've said before, I don't expect the condom wrapper to be the primary piece of evidence in the trial. Just a feeling.

[Mommyto2]

Thanks for the link, FD. I was also drawn to this statement by Kenneth Johnson:

"I don’t think [the trigger] theory’s going to make any difference when all this comes to light,” Johnson said, declining to further explain his statement."

This statement, coupled with one by Robbins that I posted yesterday about there being enough evidence against Dunn that RPD should have arrested and charged him the first time around, lead me to believe that there is much more evidence against Dunn than just the condom wrapper. In fact, I'm wondering now if perhaps the dna match was just y-chromosome.....not enough to positively identify Dunn, but maybe enough to tip the scales and convince Gibbons that the case did indeed need to be re-investigated.

As I've said before, I don't expect the condom wrapper to be the primary piece of evidence in the trial. Just a feeling.

I agree. Like I stated previously there had to be something else for Robbins to want GD's DNA.

[TJEddie]

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=17630&Search=mitochondrial

That link you provided turned out to be a treasure trove.....thanks! I left a dangling promise yesterday to look for some quotes regarding Robbins' motivation for pursuing this case and whether or not he was still "being paid to make Kevin Jones look good."

"As for what interest the attorneys — both of whom, along with Jones’ third attorney, Bill Bristow of Jonesboro, confirmed they still represent Jones — have in the case nearly seven months after their client’s acquittal, Robbins said in the release it came of a desire to seek both “Justice for Kevin Jones,” and Dirksmeyer herself.
“All of us became close to the family and believe in our client, and believe in justice and want to see it served,” Robbins, who indicated he is not receiving payment for his services in the case at this time, said in an interview.
“I’ve had to sit and look at crime scene photos for hours on end,” he added, “so I have a desire to see the person that did it pay for it.
“I know that Kevin Jones did not kill her, and I have an interest and letting the person that did it pay for it.”
Johnson expressed similar sentiments.
“I’ve become pretty close to the family, and I think all the attorneys have been pretty interested in continuing to gather evidence to find out who killed Nona Dirksmeyer,” Johnson said.
“I think this thing’s going to come to a satisfactory conclusion,” he added.

So I'm willing to call it a tie......Robbins is still officially representing Kevin, but is not being paid to do it. Fair enough?

[sololobo]

The person who picked up the cell phone and placed it on the table may have picked up the condom wrapper and put it on the counter. With all the people running around the apartment, perhaps he thought the items on the floor might get trampled and thought he was doing the investigator a favor.

The killer must have turned off the thermostat for some reason. Perhaps he was sweating profusely after the murder and left DNA from that in various places.

Nona's DNA, perhaps from blood, could have been transfered to the killer and then transfered to the wrapper via the killer.

[sololobo]

I don't think a private citizen could run a DNA sample through the State's databank. Such a request probably must come from LE and they may have been unwilling since they thought they had their man. Therefore, if Robbins wanted a DNA sample from a known person to compare with DNA from the crime scene, he may have had to get it from the person.

[lorettalockhorn]

Thanks for the link, FD. I was also drawn to this statement by Kenneth Johnson:

"I don’t think [the trigger] theory’s going to make any difference when all this comes to light,” Johnson said, declining to further explain his statement."

This statement, coupled with one by Robbins that I posted yesterday about there being enough evidence against Dunn that RPD should have arrested and charged him the first time around, lead me to believe that there is much more evidence against Dunn than just the condom wrapper. In fact, I'm wondering now if perhaps the dna match was just y-chromosome.....not enough to positively identify Dunn, but maybe enough to tip the scales and convince Gibbons that the case did indeed need to be re-investigated.

As I've said before, I don't expect the condom wrapper to be the primary piece of evidence in the trial. Just a feeling.

I think we're all hoping the same.

[lorettalockhorn]

That link you provided turned out to be a treasure trove.....thanks! I left a dangling promise yesterday to look for some quotes regarding Robbins' motivation for pursuing this case and whether or not he was still "being paid to make Kevin Jones look good."

"As for what interest the attorneys — both of whom, along with Jones’ third attorney, Bill Bristow of Jonesboro, confirmed they still represent Jones — have in the case nearly seven months after their client’s acquittal, Robbins said in the release it came of a desire to seek both “Justice for Kevin Jones,” and Dirksmeyer herself.
“All of us became close to the family and believe in our client, and believe in justice and want to see it served,” Robbins, who indicated he is not receiving payment for his services in the case at this time, said in an interview.
“I’ve had to sit and look at crime scene photos for hours on end,” he added, “so I have a desire to see the person that did it pay for it.
“I know that Kevin Jones did not kill her, and I have an interest and letting the person that did it pay for it.”
Johnson expressed similar sentiments.
“I’ve become pretty close to the family, and I think all the attorneys have been pretty interested in continuing to gather evidence to find out who killed Nona Dirksmeyer,” Johnson said.
“I think this thing’s going to come to a satisfactory conclusion,” he added.

So I'm willing to call it a tie......Robbins is still officially representing Kevin, but is not being paid to do it. Fair enough?

Doesn't there have to be some sort of exchange for a contract to exist?

I hate to slag on Robbins. (Okay, I don't.) But the only way for him to know that KJ didn't kill Nona, would be for him to have been (minimally) a witness.

[lorettalockhorn]

The person who picked up the cell phone and placed it on the table may have picked up the condom wrapper and put it on the counter. With all the people running around the apartment, perhaps he thought the items on the floor might get trampled and thought he was doing the investigator a favor.

The killer must have turned off the thermostat for some reason. Perhaps he was sweating profusely after the murder and left DNA from that in various places.

Nona's DNA, perhaps from blood, could have been transfered to the killer and then transfered to the wrapper via the killer.

It has always rankled me that some idiot moved the cellphone. Is there any hope that his fingerprints are on the wrapper? That he can be pointed out and his dumbarse fired?? And not just dumb, but gutless to not step forward.

[sololobo]

Perhaps Robbins' motivation for his continued interest in this case is merely the same as those who post here....justice for Nona and getting a killer off the streets.

[sololobo]

It has always rankled me that some idiot moved the cellphone. Is there any hope that his fingerprints are on the wrapper? That he can be pointed out and his dumbarse fired?? And not just dumb, but gutless to not step forward.

He was probably wearing gloves....surely he would have got that right:)

[jeremiads]

Perhaps Robbins' motivation for his continued interest in this case is merely the same as those who post here....justice for Nona and getting a killer off the streets.Maybe. I guess we can always bicker about the differences between precision strikes and burning down the village, though.

[lorettalockhorn]

Perhaps Robbins' motivation for his continued interest in this case is merely the same as those who post here....justice for Nona and getting a killer off the streets.

Isn't he on the record as working for justice for Kevin? Or is that Bristow?

He was probably wearing gloves....surely he would have got that right:)

Well, at this point it's easy to doubt that someone who would pull such a boneheaded move would be that smart. At any rate, (s)he* should have stepped up, and my feeling from what I've read, is that (s)he didn't.

*Guess I shouldn't blame this on a guy.

[sololobo]

Isn't he on the record as working for justice for Kevin? Or is that Bristow?



Well, at this point it's easy to doubt that someone who would pull such a boneheaded move would be that smart. At any rate, (s)he* should have stepped up, and my feeling from what I've read, is that (s)he didn't.

*Guess I shouldn't blame this on a guy.

Lol:) You got me visualizing a "Monk" type who would have pulled out the vacuum cleaner to tidy up if Frost hadn't come down the stairs and asked who moved the phone:)

[lorettalockhorn]

Lol:) You got me visualizing a "Monk" type who would have pulled out the vacuum cleaner to tidy up if Frost hadn't come down the stairs and asked who moved the phone:)

hehehe Love Monk. RPD could have used him!

[hawgustusgloop]

Doesn't there have to be some sort of exchange for a contract to exist?

I hate to slag on Robbins. (Okay, I don't.) But the only way for him to know that KJ didn't kill Nona, would be for him to have been (minimally) a witness.

Yes, I think that exchange is called consideration. If I remember correctly, Robbins is also the one who somehow knows that Gary Dunn and Nona Dirksmeyer didn't know each other. I don't see how he can be so sure about that one either.

One thing that I wonder about is the integrity of the DNA evidence on the condom wrapper. That thing has been through the ringer with the super glue, multiple DNA tests, etc. I admit I have no idea how all that works.

[FDInLaw]

Kevin Noppinger, a lab director from DNA Labs International, a private consulting firm, testified in December 2006 that he analyzed at the defense’s request a pair of panties recovered from the crime scene, an opened condom wrapper also recovered at the scene and fingernail clippings and vaginal and rectal swabs taken from Dirksmeyer’s body by Kokes at the time of autopsy.
Noppinger found only DNA belonging to the victim under her nail clippings, he said, although he did find “Y-chromosome” DNA evidence on the condom wrapper, Dirksmeyer’s panties and on the vaginal swab, according to his testimony.
Terri Rolfe, chief resident DNA expert with the Arkansas State Crime Lab who testified earlier in the day, informed the jury there are three types of testable DNA — nuclear, MITOCHONDRIAL and Y-chromosome. Nuclear DNA, according to Rolfe, is unique to each person, while MITOCHONDRIAL and Y-chromosome DNA are maternally and paternally linked, respectively. She clarified they “will point to a lineage rather than a particular person,” although they can be used to exclude certain donors assuming they do not share an ancestry with the actual donor of the DNA.
Noppinger testified although there “wasn’t a lot of DNA” on the condom wrapper, he was able to conclusively exclude Jones as the donor of the sample. Jones was, however, the donor of the spermatozoal DNA found on the vaginal swab and panties, according to Noppinger.
http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15439&Search=MITOCHONDRIAL



Sorry for any mix-up. If it's okay, can we leave the mitochondrial info in the study room? Other folks, on different cases, read in there. :seeya:

[FDInLaw]

It has always rankled me that some idiot moved the cellphone. Is there any hope that his fingerprints are on the wrapper? That he can be pointed out and his dumbarse fired?? And not just dumb, but gutless to not step forward.

No. From what I recall, prints are hard to recover from the surface of a condom wrapper. (Which has always bothered me, why wasn't Frost encouraged to do a dna test in the first place???) I sure hope that the wrapper was not tampered with (moved). What if the wrapper was planted and only had Dunn's dna, but some schmuck on the scene touched something with Nona's dna and then touched the wrapper???? Ugh. I don't even want to think about it. . .


Sololobo is right, let's hope the first responders were at least wearing gloves!

[TJEddie]

According to testimony in the first trial, 19 people were logged in at the crime scene that night. That's 19 bodies, 38 pair of feet and 38 pair of hands milling about in a downstairs area that appeared to be no more than 300-400 sq.ft. (And those are just the ones that actually logged in......did others slip past?) Gloves? Who would have been in charge of handing them out? What about booties? Hairnets? How many of those 19 people actually had a function and how many were just gawkers who wanted to be in on the excitement? As for the thermostat, I've speculated before that maybe with so many warm bodies milling about in such a small space, somebody got hot and decided to turn down the heat.

And now I'm going to brew myself a second cup of coffee and try to calm myself down. There needs to be a rule on this board against bringing up "crime scene treatment" this early in the morning. Geez......

[FDInLaw]

According to testimony in the first trial, 19 people were logged in at the crime scene that night. That's 19 bodies, 38 pair of feet and 38 pair of hands milling about in a downstairs area that appeared to be no more than 300-400 sq.ft. (And those are just the ones that actually logged in......did others slip past?) Gloves? Who would have been in charge of handing them out? What about booties? Hairnets? How many of those 19 people actually had a function and how many were just gawkers who wanted to be in on the excitement? As for the thermostat, I've speculated before that maybe with so many warm bodies milling about in such a small space, somebody got hot and decided to turn down the heat.

And now I'm going to brew myself a second cup of coffee and try to calm myself down. There needs to be a rule on this board against bringing up "crime scene treatment" this early in the morning. Geez......Don't forget KJ's behavior . . . laying all over the body, punching the wall, running from room to room conducting his own investigation. . . ugh. If there ever was one time that he really needed to listen to his Mother, this was it! IIRC she told the boys not to touch anything.

I've resolved to trust God with justice. . . y'all can hope that the State has the goods on Dunn, but I'm not going to get my hopes up all over again.

Rest in peace Nona. . . :rose: