Mary Winkler and Her Daughters Reunited

[snoop sister]

I thought I would start a new thread because the flaming mad one didn't express my joy adequately. :biggrin:

[SaraSidle]

I think it is very nice Snoop. How have you been? I am so glad Mary is with her kids. I know they will be fine. Good news finally here. IMO

[snoop sister]

Hi Sara. I'm quite well, thank you and hope you are too. It was kind of crazy how our old threads got shut down by the trolls! (I see one of them has shown up again and hope she can control herself this time.) I have been haunting "the google" because I knew Mary's court date was coming up and was delighted when I got this unexpected bit of good news. I hope that the family continues to grow in strength. I hope also that we will get to know a little more detail about how this all came about.

[SaraSidle]

Hi Sara. I'm quite well, thank you and hope you are too. It was kind of crazy how our old threads got shut down by the trolls! (I see one of them has shown up again and hope she can control herself this time.) I have been haunting "the google" because I knew Mary's court date was coming up and was delighted when I got this unexpected bit of good news. I hope that the family continues to grow in strength. I hope also that we will get to know a little more detail about how this all came about.

Yes I quite agree that it would be nice to find out how this happened. I am glad you are doing well as I am. Good for you for the followup. I have not done much myself I am embarassed to say. I stayed on when the original thread was closed and I am still here. Met a lot of great people even. I also hope the family gets stronger. IMO

[Mother HEN]

I thought I would start a new thread because the flaming mad one didn't express my joy adequately. :biggrin:

(The thread on the coldwater board has a big ol' Ï on it, thanks to the tattlemail demanding that Mary's supporters be silenced/suffocated.)



:rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose: :rose:

It's wonderful that Mary and her daughters have been given a second chance at happiness.

[snoop sister]

Hi Mother Hen. I am still wondering what in the world changed for the grandparents to drop their stranglehold on the kids. Heard anything new?

[Mother HEN]

Hi Mother Hen. I am still wondering what in the world changed for the grandparents to drop their stranglehold on the kids. Heard anything new?

Nothing new.

(I've had a few PMs from posters telling me about the rumor a poster is spreading about Dan losing the kids because of his marijuana use. I hope they're forwarding the poster's PMs to truTV's legal dept. and to Dan and his lawyers.)

(Always some lonely liars/fryers want to be seen as having inside information.)

[SaraSidle]

Nothing new.

(I've had a few PMs from posters telling me about the rumor a poster is spreading about Dan losing the kids because of his marijuana use. I hope they're forwarding the poster's PMs to truTV's legal dept. and to Dan and his lawyers.)

(Always some lonely liars/fryers want to be seen as having inside information.)

Well that is not cool if it is not true. thanks for the info Mother HEN

[Mother HEN]

Well that is not cool if it is not true. thanks for the info Mother HEN


I wouldn't be surprised at anyone from Dan's age cohort using marijuana. It's a leading cash crop in KY and TN.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=marijuana+growing+in+tennessee&btnG=Google+Search

And I wouldn't be shocked at anyone's following God's command to "use every green herb", especially a preacher.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=bible%2C+use+every+herb&btnG=Search

And trying to get a little relief from the horror of the loss of his son would be perfectly understandable.

But it's hard for me to believe a son of Wendell Winkler would smoke ANYTHING, tobacco or marijuana. And impossible to believe that he was ordered to take a drug test by the chancellor.

Imho, it's just the fantasy of a poster who wants to be seen as having inside information. I hope Dan sues the rumor monger.

[SaraSidle]

I am sure you are right Mother HEN. The family does not need anymore problems. IMO

[snoop sister]

My opinion of the Winklers senior is not terribly high, however, this particular story seems off base to me. Dan does not seem to be the laid back stoner type. There's so much other material for the court to look askance...still, what an unexpected twist!! LOL.

If there was some sort of "test" that he didn't pass it could be that he was required to do a psych eval....that would be something interesting. I can guess that it would reveal things he would not wish to have entered into the court record.

Mostly, while curious, I am glad that whatever it was came to light and the girls are back with their mom.

[Mother HEN]

My opinion of the Winklers senior is not terribly high, however, this particular story seems off base to me. Dan does not seem to be the laid back stoner type. There's so much other material for the court to look askance...still, what an unexpected twist!! LOL.

If there was some sort of "test" that he didn't pass it could be that he was required to do a psych eval....that would be something interesting. I can guess that it would reveal things he would not wish to have entered into the court record.

Mostly, while curious, I am glad that whatever it was came to light and the girls are back with their mom.


Agree that Dan's :flamemad: face is not that of a stoner.

And, ooooh, if he had to take psych tests? OFF THE CHART. They'd have to bring in Dr. Zager to interpret.

[snoop sister]

Agree that Dan's :flamemad: face is not that of a stoner.

And, ooooh, if he had to take psych tests? OFF THE CHART. They'd have to bring in Dr. Zager to interpret.

Can't really imagine that face next to a bong. :)

Mary's face has changed since the first time I saw it. I attribute the positive expression to a freedom from abuse Maybe there's some new ones of Dan. More relaxed.....:biggrin:

[snoop sister]

Happy Back to School Girls! :hat:

[SaraSidle]

Happy Back to School Girls! :hat:

I second that. and Mary does look so much healthier now. IMO

[senor dahmer]

Howdy,

Ok, let me great this straight. You are actually happy that this woman gets her children back, after she MURDERED her husband? She took out a shotgun and murders this man in his sleep, an innocent man who provided a home and children to this person (if I can call her that).

If this was a man who killed his wife, he'd be on death row. Matthew Winkler and Mary had troubles, mainly because Mary more or less gave away the families' meager savings to scammers and was kiting checks in a vain attempt to keep everything afloat. There is absoluty no evidence that Mary was physically harmed, and that joke of a trial more or less put him on the stand, with a defendant who would say anything to keep her ass from going to prison for the rest of her life.

Those girls are not going to be happy knowing what their mother did. It's not like with their mother's limited education and background that they can ever escape their little west Tennessee town. This crime is going to afflict generations of that family.

Senor

[snoop sister]

There was a hearing today and the girls are permanently restored to their mother.

Thank you to all the wonderful legal team who worked so hard for this family to make this day finally come. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!
:patriot:

[SaraSidle]

There was a hearing today and the girls are permanently restored to their mother.

Thank you to all the wonderful legal team who worked so hard for this family to make this day finally come. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!!
:patriot:

Thank you so much for that news Snoop Sister. I did not hear it anywhere. Hopefully they can be left in peace and start having a normal life. IMO

[One2Snoop]

Slain preacher's wife wins custody of daughters
Mary Winkler wins custody battle after improving relationship with in-laws


HUNTINGDON, Tennessee (AP) -- A woman convicted of killing her minister husband two years ago was granted permanent custody of their three young daughters Friday and said she has resumed a cordial relationship with the grandparents who fought to take the children away from her.

snip
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/09/19/preacher.slain.ap/index.html

[cookiewench]

But aren't they all still tied into the same church/culture that many have claimed was at the root of Mary's murderous act?

So many here were grateful that Mary would now have a chance for a normal life outside of that patriarchal culture.

Why are some of those same people now applauding the fact that three more young girls will be raised in it?

[Mother HEN]

Well, it's been nine months since Mary Carol and her daughters were reunited.

Nothing in the news.

(Just dropped by to see if anyone had heard anything.)

:rose: The great lawyers and all who helped Mary Carol.

:rose: Good posters.

:rose: Mary Carol and her daughters.

[Marian Paroo]

I couldn't get a lot of information about the case here, just what I read, mostly on CNN.com (CNN International doesn't cover American crime) and saw on Greta, back in the days when she wasn't covering politics.

But my gut feeling was all things taken into to consideration, if she received such a light sentence in that part of the world, there must have been a good reason for it.

It's not as if she was tried in Northampton, MA by an all lesbian jury.

[Mother HEN]

Hiya, Marian Paroo!

(Cute pseud.) (Wasn't that the name of the librarian in The Music Man?)

Yes, indeed there was a good reason for Mary's light sentence. She was the victim of horrible abuse by a fifth-generation preacher in an sect where men rule and women submit, and the jury understood that.



ﬠמּשּׁ

[Marian Paroo]

Hiya, Marian Paroo!

(Cute pseud.) (Wasn't that the name of the librarian in The Music Man?)

Yes, indeed there was a good reason for Mary's light sentence. She was the victim of horrible abuse by a fifth-generation preacher in an sect where men rule and women submit, and the jury understood that.



ﬠמּשּׁ

Yes, that's the one! I'm a liberry lady, so I chose that name.

As I said, I didn't get a lot of details of the case here in Israel, but I am familiar with the kind of hideous abuse of women some sects -- of all religions -- entail.

I've never heard of a similar case here (of this kind of killing), but I'd say that's because recreational weaponry is very rare here. Most hunting is illegal because of conservation laws. Very few people are allowed to keep their reserve duty weapons at home.

No lack of violence against women, both in secular and religious homes. The cases in religious homes are kept more hidden -- a woman can have her children taken away by religious leaders and she will be exiled from the community and kept from her children if she complains to secular authorities.

[wind149]

I loathe this woman, she got away with murder big time and I don't feel she should have any contact with them whatsoever, she killed their father in cold blood so he would not notice she was bouncing checks all over town and that is the only reason as I never did buy the abuse stories. She shot the man in the back for Christ's Sakes, he was trying to get away from her, not sleeping in the bed. And I never bought the stories that he made her dress up in hooker shoes and clothes, it was never proven he went to strip clubs and really, what is wrong with strip clubs as long as they are on the up and up and I know he was a preacher and all, but I have been to clubs where both sexes dance and I saw a teacher I knew and a preacher man too and I never said a word because it was none of my business what they were doing there, same as it was my business to see the male dancers and ladies, these guys were hot!!!

And what swayed the jury was she looked like a school marm, all mousy hair and clothes, and that little demure look, like she was as innocent as a lamb and if the abuse occurred and she shot him in self defense like she claimed, why did she flee the house with kids, why not call the law and tell 911 that you shot your husband and be waiting on the front lawn for them to arrive??? No she books to where AL and is pulled over and found to be wanted in TN for murder??? Now granted, we all don't know sometimes what goes on behind closed doors, many a woman was abused and never said a word and just hid the bruises, but no one saw any abuse including the kids and they would know, they would have heard her getting smacked around, they would have heard her screaming in pain, they would have seen the bruises???

And 60 days in a nuthatch was not the sentence I thought they would hand down, more like 60 years in prison and I was floored when I saw this on my TV and I saw a smile come over her face and I don't know if anyone else picked up on it, it was not a smile of relief, it was a satisfied smile, like ha ha, I got away with it, like the cat got the bowl of cream and I wanted to slap her with those hooker shoes right upside her head!! No this woman should not have her kids, she does not deserve them, she is a murderess and a liar and a whack job and I fear for these kid's safety!

[tv]

Amen, Wind! If that psychopath was abused then I'm the Queen of England! :flamemad:

[Mojo]

I loathe this woman, she got away with murder big time and I don't feel she should have any contact with them whatsoever, she killed their father in cold blood so he would not notice she was bouncing checks all over town and that is the only reason as I never did buy the abuse stories. She shot the man in the back for Christ's Sakes, he was trying to get away from her, not sleeping in the bed. And I never bought the stories that he made her dress up in hooker shoes and clothes, it was never proven he went to strip clubs and really, what is wrong with strip clubs as long as they are on the up and up and I know he was a preacher and all, but I have been to clubs where both sexes dance and I saw a teacher I knew and a preacher man too and I never said a word because it was none of my business what they were doing there, same as it was my business to see the male dancers and ladies, these guys were hot!!!

And what swayed the jury was she looked like a school marm, all mousy hair and clothes, and that little demure look, like she was as innocent as a lamb and if the abuse occurred and she shot him in self defense like she claimed, why did she flee the house with kids, why not call the law and tell 911 that you shot your husband and be waiting on the front lawn for them to arrive??? No she books to where AL and is pulled over and found to be wanted in TN for murder??? Now granted, we all don't know sometimes what goes on behind closed doors, many a woman was abused and never said a word and just hid the bruises, but no one saw any abuse including the kids and they would know, they would have heard her getting smacked around, they would have heard her screaming in pain, they would have seen the bruises???

And 60 days in a nuthatch was not the sentence I thought they would hand down, more like 60 years in prison and I was floored when I saw this on my TV and I saw a smile come over her face and I don't know if anyone else picked up on it, it was not a smile of relief, it was a satisfied smile, like ha ha, I got away with it, like the cat got the bowl of cream and I wanted to slap her with those hooker shoes right upside her head!! No this woman should not have her kids, she does not deserve them, she is a murderess and a liar and a whack job and I fear for these kid's safety!

You are absolutely right, Wind!! She should be rotting in jail not out playing in the park with her kids. I'm shocked his parents agreed to let her have custody again! Hopefully, it's joint custody with them.

[BeastofBears]

IMO, she got away with murder. Jeez, being "forced" to wear high heels is NOT an excuse to shoot a man in the back. It is a reason to leave him if it bugs you! Otherwise, learn to love the lucite and not the shotgun. All IMOs.

I really don't like it when religion is used as an excuse to murder.

[tv]

IMO, she got away with murder. Jeez, being "forced" to wear high heels is NOT an excuse to shoot a man in the back. It is a reason to leave him if it bugs you! Otherwise, learn to love the lucite and not the shotgun. All IMOs.

I really don't like it when religion is used as an excuse to murder.

Her high heel story is a bunch of hooey in my opinion. Does anyone ever read eyesforlies.com? She nailed this murderer to a tee!

[Marian Paroo]

Can someone please tell me about the composition of the jury?

I've followed the case as best I could from here, and was surprised at the verdict and sentence.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Can someone please tell me about the composition of the jury?

I've followed the case as best I could from here, and was surprised at the verdict and sentence.



10 women and 2 men.

Mr. Berry stated that they did not understand the jury instructions and asked the Judge for clarification. He said the Judge did not clarify anything and sent them back to deliberate. They thought they had to come to a unanimous decision even though their beliefs were totally opposing to each other.

It was one of the strangest trials I have ever seen. Not one piece of substantiated evidence was ever offered to show she had actually been abused. It was all a "she said" with him dead and voiceless. And the gosh awful one shoe was supposedly found right before the trial by the defense. Since when is wearing ugly shoes a motive to coldly murder someone as they sleep? They looked like they had never even been worn. The strap was still stiff and not as if it had ever been wrapped around anyone's ankle.

Mary had secrets behind her preacher husband's back and when she knew he was going to find out she wasn't the demure, honest preacher's wife she knew her facade would melt away and she would be revealed. IMO Mary didn't want to be a preacher's wife were she had to pretend to be meek and mild and a plain Jane. Mary had a hankering for the another life filled with lots of makeup, fancy clothes and jewelry and time out to go to the bars. That she couldn't do if she was still a preacher's wife.

Farese threw the spaghetti at the wall and some of it stuck. It was a multiple choice defense.

1. Accident
2. Abuse
3. Mental issues.

Unfortunately this jury just didn't seem to even understand what they were doing or the jury instructions. It was said later in a news article that several of the jurors were highly upset over the small amount of time she got for this heinous act.

Foreman Berry said that out of all the witnesses that testified he found Patricia Winkler the most credible and she testified against her mother. He did not believe the abuse story.

imo

[Marian Paroo]

Thanks. But who were these 12 people as far as their education and socioeconomic levels went?

And who set the sentence? Jury or judge?

[Jadedblueeyes]

Thanks. But who were these 12 people as far as their education and socioeconomic levels went?

And who set the sentence? Jury or judge?

YW Marian.

The Judge imposed sentence. Winkler had no prior criminal history so she qualified for the lower end of the scale of 3 to 6 year, being the maximum range (for those that do have priors). IIRC, in TN a defendant has to serve around 30% of the three year sentence.

The jury was comprised of mostly women in their 40- late 50s. There was a female juror that was 28, I believe she worked as a waitress.

I don't remember any of them having college educations. Selmer is a small very conservative town and I think many of the jurors were either housewives or were middle income class workers. I think I remember that Foreman Berry had just retired shortly before the trial. Seems like his prior profession had something to do with construction but it has been so long that it is really hard to recall all the details now.

Farese hired a jury consultant for the case. The state did not. I will always believe Farese knew if he could shock these very conservative jurors with showing a stacked hooker shoe and a wig that they would believe all of his spiel hook, line and sinker. I would guess to say that no one on that jury had ever even seen such gaudy shoes. This was a very religious town where imo any exposure and mention of sex would shock their senses.

imo

[MMVIII]

This was a very religious town where imo any exposure and mention of sex would shock their senses.

imo


Excellent point! Thank G_d someone has the courage to denounce the small-minded jury!

You were right all along in your denunciations of the townsfolk, the jurors, the defense lawyers, the defense witnesses, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.!

Shame on the defense lawyers who agreed to take the evil murderess's case. Shame on the psychologist who colluded with the shameful defense lawyers. Shame on the chancellors and judges who conspired to take the children and their FUND away from Dan!

G_d-fearing people should avoid Tennessee, where evil murderesses are set free to smoke and drink and eat eat eat eat eat. Without Matthew to keep them from eating, Mary and her daughters are surely packing on the pounds. I hope someone will post some pictures of them.

[Marian Paroo]

Interesting.

See, I woulda thought the uneducated religious jury would easily find her as guilty as possible.

Thought the prosecution would pull up a lot of stuff about women being liars and a preacher would never degrade his wife like that.

The woman tempted me, women have been liars since Eve. She's making it all up. If anything, the sexy stuff was her idea.

That's why I was surprised and asked about the jury.

So no democrat lesbian social workers with doctorates and she still got a light sentence?

As I said, interesting.

[Marian Paroo]

Well, I'm just being as extreme as I can. Thinking of a jury that would have been as liberal and non-religious a possble.

If this case had been in some blue state, that's what people would be saying about the light sentence.

I have a friend who lives in TN, and she hinted that she had something to say about the case, but in the end never did, and she is very Christian and conservative.

I think I said on another post that we do not have jury trials in Israel, only bench trials. It bothered me when I first came here, but now having seen on tv or read about the most famous trials in the USA over the past 30 years, and having lived amongst the Israeli jury pool for the same time, I am very, very glad.

Even research on trials here, esp. in the lower courts have show prejudice on the part of judges, but I don't think it is 1/10 as bad as it would be with jury trials here.

[Jadedblueeyes]

Interesting.

See, I woulda thought the uneducated religious jury would easily find her as guilty as possible.

Thought the prosecution would pull up a lot of stuff about women being liars and a preacher would never degrade his wife like that.

The woman tempted me, women have been liars since Eve. She's making it all up. If anything, the sexy stuff was her idea.

That's why I was surprised and asked about the jury.

So no democrat lesbian social workers with doctorates and she still got a light sentence?

As I said, interesting.


I don't have a clue about their political affiliation. lol I also wouldn't call them uneducated ether simply because they may not have degrees.

The one that kept them uneducated about the jury instructions though was the Judge when he sent them back without answering their questions.

But I think the women especially thought that for a woman to wear gosh awful gaudy shoes and a wig that she had to be forced and abused to do it. IMO they could not even comprehend that she may have been a willing participant in the sexual play.

The voluntary manslaughter verdict defies logic imo. Where was the provocation when the man was sound asleep with a 1000 ml of urine in his bladder?

imo

[MMVIII]

IMO they could not even comprehend that she may have been a willing participant in the sexual play.


Another excellent point!

They were unable to comprehend the simple fact that the evil murderess bought the BIG shoes for Matthew to wear. The shoes were waaaay tooooo BIG for Mary Carol, but just right for her BIG-bladdered preacher/ruler to put on while viewing the porn on his computer late at night.

[Marian Paroo]

I think the reaction of some of the fundamentalist Jewish women here would have said it was pretty horrible for her husband to make her do that, but still, a wife must obey her husband, unless he is forcing her to have sex on her "unclean" days. Or wear men's underwear.

Her award for suffering will come in the next world. In the meantime, his word is law.

She might go speak to her rabbi, who might speak to her husband, but the bottom line is she gotta obey.

[MMVIII]

"In the Church of Christ, who is the head of the household?" Farese asked Dan Winkler, father of Matthew Winkler and minister of the Huntingdon, Tenn., church.

"The Bible says the husband is," Dan Winkler replied.

"But is he the boss of the household?" Farese asked moments later.

When Dan Winkler replied with scriptural references to husbands cherishing their wives and setting direction for the household, Farese asked then: "Do you have women preachers in the Church of Christ?"

Farese also criticized the elder Winklers' choice of a therapist for their granddaughters by choosing counselor Diana Crawford, who is part of the AGAPE Counseling Network. Farese said that because AGAPE accepts donations from individual Churches of Christ and that the Winklers were following Crawford's recommendations regarding visitation limits and contact between Mary Winkler and her children, that "it seems like Mary is in a cycle here that she can't get out of."


http://www.christianchronicle.org/article668~Has_Mary_Winkler_court_case_put_Churche s_of_Christ_on_trial%3F


It's very important in the sect in which Mary and Matthew were raised and educated that men rule and women submit. Mary's sisters made it clear in the GLAMOUR article that they were all raised to believe that.

In the c of C, it's almost as important as the ban on smoking and celebrating Catholic/Pagan holidays like Christmas and Hallowe'en.

[MMVIII]

http://hwy9.chofchrist.org/sermonstopical.html

This list of sermons gives a good introduction to the beliefs and practices of the Winkler/Wayne Jackson wing of the church of Christ.

(Funny that those by Dan Winkler have been removed from the site. I wonder why.)

[MMVIII]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=ex-church+of+christ&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

(Link to ex-c of C support sites.)

[MMVIII]

http://www.swartzcreek.net/assets/sermons/RedefiningSin.pdf.


What did Matthew's famous preacher grandfather, the great Wendell Winkler, have to say about Lesbians?



For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:




And what did Wendell teach about smoking and jesting?



Besetting sins covers a number of categories. Bro. Winkler gives quite a list:1. “Sins of habit: gambling, drinking, smoking, cursing, immorality, etc.”2. “Sins of attitude: judging, over tolerance, covetousness, envy, jealousy, ingratitude, prejudice; insincerity.”3. Sins of the tongue: gossip, fault-finding, criticism, cursing, jesting, slang, murmuring, lying, filthy speech, boasting, etc.”4. “Sins of misplaced affection: money, kin, preeminence, pleasure, etc.”5. “Sins of the flesh: gluttony, drunkenness, immorality, fornication, adultery, homosexuality, petting, revealing, etc.”6. “Other sins: procrastination, laziness, losing your temper, stealing, worry, etc

[Marian Paroo]

:beer:

[Mojo]

I still don't see how any of this excuses shooting a sleeping man in the back. She controlled the finances and lost a lot of money. That's why she did it. If she was so abused, she could have packed those kids up at anytime and found a shelter and lawyer.

[Marian Paroo]

I don't know what the situation is in the USA on the whole, and TN in particular, but here there are waiting lists.

Especially at the shelters for fundamentalist Jewish women (they won't agree to go to the regular shelters, they want super kosher and modest dress regulations and all kinds of stuff things).

[deacon]

I don't know what the situation is in the USA on the whole, and TN in particular, but here there are waiting lists.

Especially at the shelters for fundamentalist Jewish women (they won't agree to go to the regular shelters, they want super kosher and modest dress regulations and all kinds of stuff things).

Shelters here, for the most part, are easy to get access to. They are private and once a woman goes to one she is put in a shelter away from the person she is trying to get away from. These shelters are protected by law and if an abuser is seen near the shelter he is arrested.

There are some who post on this thread whose minds are like cement. Completely mixed up and permanently set.

[wind149]

Anyone from New England will tell you the real story of Lizzie Borden! She killed her father and stepmother by hacking them to death with a hatchet and while she was charged with murder, when it came to the jurists, they were all male and seeing as women were supposed to be these little demure, fragile pieces of humanity, they could not bring themselves to find her guilty because hanging was on the books back then and they would have had to send her to the gallows and not one man wanted to do it so Lizzie, a complete sociopath walked out of that courtroom a free woman and lived until she was clear into her 80's. She never married and she sold the family home and bought another one in Fall River and the old home is now a B&B and of course the whole "Lizzie took an ax" story is told every day in that house.

I believe this woman is as guilty as Lizzie and she too, walked on a murder charge and ITA with the jurists in her trial. They saw a small, fragile, mousy looking woman and listened to her tale of woe and bought it line and sinker right down to the hooker shoes. Kinda funny how no one ever said that Matt went to strip clubs? Now we don't know what goes on behind closed doors and maybe she was a tad frigid and was not into kinky sex, and that is OK, but I think she murdered him in cold blood because she did not want him to find out about the checks and nor do I think she wanted to be married to him anymore. About two months after she was released one of those tabloid shows aired a piece on her, she was seen with a totally new look, wearing nice clothes and out to dinner at a fancy restaurant, yucking it up for all to see, like "HA HA I got away with it" with a gleam in her eye and she could go on Oprah today and gleefully tell all why she killed him and never spend a second behind bars again double jeopardy applies and that is why I loathe this beast and she should never be allowed to see her kids again.

[BeastofBears]

How on earth can growing up in a conservative Christian environment/culture justify cold-blooded, sleeping victim, shooting in the back, MURDER?

Lots of women grow up in cultures where women are expected to submit to men. Few of them shoot their sleeping husbands in the back after committing a bunch of financial indiscretions.

Excuses, excuses. J'accuse, murderess!

imo.

[Lodi]

How on earth can growing up in a conservative Christian environment/culture justify cold-blooded, sleeping victim, shooting in the back, MURDER?

Lots of women grow up in cultures where women are expected to submit to men. Few of them shoot their sleeping husbands in the back after committing a bunch of financial indiscretions.

Excuses, excuses. J'accuse, murderess!

imo.

Sometimes women find themselves in a spot where the only way to escape is with force. She was afraid of her husband. I don't know if it was true that he punished the children by clasping his hand over their mouth and nose so they couldn't breathe but to me it had a ring of truth when she told it. I compare this whole thing to a situation where two people are locked in a room. One person is stronger than the other and has physically and mentally badgered the smaller person until he or she can't take it any longer. When the smaller person finds the right time to escape the situation, they pick up a weapon and use it. Fear will drive a person to do many things. jmo

[BeastofBears]

Sometimes women find themselves in a spot where the only way to escape is with force. She was afraid of her husband. I don't know if it was true that he punished the children by clasping his hand over their mouth and nose so they couldn't breathe but to me it had a ring of truth when she told it. I compare this whole thing to a situation where two people are locked in a room. One person is stronger than the other and has physically and mentally badgered the smaller person until he or she can't take it any longer. When the smaller person finds the right time to escape the situation, they pick up a weapon and use it. Fear will drive a person to do many things. jmo

The thing is, she was not locked in a room. There was a door, and a car, and keys to the car. She made good use of them when she fled the scene of the crime, so she knew how to use them. This isn't Saudi Arabia where she would have been returned to her husband's custody. Being "badgered" is no excuse for murder. If there was actual fear (which I doubt) there is a "fight or flight" response, not a "shoot the sleeping guy in the back" response. If he had shot her in the back while she slept, I think there would not be any empathy. You know who I bet has fear? The children who are back with her. Hey, if mom shot dad, will she shoot me too? That's what I would be thinking in that circumstance.

In BoB's opinion, no excuses, even if a man is the one who is the victim.

[deacon]

The thing is, she was not locked in a room. There was a door, and a car, and keys to the car. She made good use of them when she fled the scene of the crime, so she knew how to use them. This isn't Saudi Arabia where she would have been returned to her husband's custody. Being "badgered" is no excuse for murder. If there was actual fear (which I doubt) there is a "fight or flight" response, not a "shoot the sleeping guy in the back" response. If he had shot her in the back while she slept, I think there would not be any empathy. You know who I bet has fear? The children who are back with her. Hey, if mom shot dad, will she shoot me too? That's what I would be thinking in that circumstance.
In BoB's opinion, no excuses, even if a man is the one who is the victim.

Some people just refuse to see that. They are living in another country I guess.

[Lodi]

The thing is, she was not locked in a room. There was a door, and a car, and keys to the car. She made good use of them when she fled the scene of the crime, so she knew how to use them. This isn't Saudi Arabia where she would have been returned to her husband's custody. Being "badgered" is no excuse for murder. If there was actual fear (which I doubt) there is a "fight or flight" response, not a "shoot the sleeping guy in the back" response. If he had shot her in the back while she slept, I think there would not be any empathy. You know who I bet has fear? The children who are back with her. Hey, if mom shot dad, will she shoot me too? That's what I would be thinking in that circumstance.

In BoB's opinion, no excuses, even if a man is the one who is the victim.

My grandfather abused my grandmother and all his sons and daughters. He beat them while quoting scripture from the bible. They all went to church every sunday. When he was 39 years old, he beat my grandmother with a piece of stovewood almost killing her. The next day, he and his three teenage sons went to the fields to work but he didn't come home that evening. The preacher came by a few days later and led the family in prayer.
My grandfather never did come home.

[deacon]

My grandfather abused my grandmother and all his sons and daughters. He beat them while quoting scripture from the bible. They all went to church every sunday. When he was 39 years old, he beat my grandmother with a piece of stovewood almost killing her. The next day, he and his three teenage sons went to the fields to work but he didn't come home that evening. The preacher came by a few days later and led the family in prayer.
My grandfather never did come home.

There was no physical abuse proven in this case. In fact, there was no abuse proven at all. Just the rantings of someone trying to cover their rear.

[wind149]

Exactly! NO ABUSE was ever proven! She made up the whole thing so as to save her sorry ass from prison time and the jury felt sorry for her and how much ya wanna bet when she was alone, she probably high fived herself for coming up with that crap story!! Just like with Lizzy Borden, she beat the rap because she came across to the jury like a school marm, soft little voice, mousy hair and clothes and when the defense was asking her about the kinky sex that Matt apparently forced her into, she cried right on cue with the hooker shoe right in front of her and it was sickening. She shot that man in cold blood and is still laughing to herself how she committed the perfect crime and double jeopardy applies, she could go on Oprah tomorrow and gleefully tell her how she pulled it off and nothing could ever be done to her legally. And does anyone know if she ended up with life insurance money or other monies??

[deacon]

Exactly! NO ABUSE was ever proven! She made up the whole thing so as to save her sorry ass from prison time and the jury felt sorry for her and how much ya wanna bet when she was alone, she probably high fived herself for coming up with that crap story!! Just like with Lizzy Borden, she beat the rap because she came across to the jury like a school marm, soft little voice, mousy hair and clothes and when the defense was asking her about the kinky sex that Matt apparently forced her into, she cried right on cue with the hooker shoe right in front of her and it was sickening. She shot that man in cold blood and is still laughing to herself how she committed the perfect crime and double jeopardy applies, she could go on Oprah tomorrow and gleefully tell her how she pulled it off and nothing could ever be done to her legally. And does anyone know if she ended up with life insurance money or other monies??

Probably. At least the girls did and guess who controls their assets now.

[One2Snoop]

Y'all shouldn't pay any mind to what Lodi posts. He's most likely making it up. He's been here under at least a dozen nics if not more. I truly believe he's the one that got hit over the head with that stovewood. :punch: With that said, please read the following post by IJM posted yesterday in the Tara Grinstead discussion......

Amen. Lodie's posting is like trying to talk to someone who talks out of all sides of their mouth. Left side, right side and the upper and down. Lodie will post anything just to post. Pitiful and as useless as a sty on a pigs eye. Lodie and all his other nics is unstable in his thinking....his mind changes like the wind. :confused:

I don't get his purpose being here...never have and never will.
IMHOO fep

[BeastofBears]

There's a country western song in there somewhere, or is it just me?

[SaraSidle]

There's a country western song in there somewhere, or is it just me?

you have to stop. waaaay too funny IMO

[Marian Paroo]

There's a country western song in there somewhere, or is it just me?

you have to stop. waaaay too funny IMO

Several.

[Lodi]

Several.

And a rousing yiddish one as well. (sung with the upper right corner of my mouth)

[Marian Paroo]

Yiddish? Don't think so. It would be even hard to conceive of that kind of ballad in Hebrew.

[lilac]

Howdy,

Ok, let me great this straight. You are actually happy that this woman gets her children back, after she MURDERED her husband? She took out a shotgun and murders this man in his sleep, an innocent man who provided a home and children to this person (if I can call her that).

If this was a man who killed his wife, he'd be on death row. Matthew Winkler and Mary had troubles, mainly because Mary more or less gave away the families' meager savings to scammers and was kiting checks in a vain attempt to keep everything afloat. There is absoluty no evidence that Mary was physically harmed, and that joke of a trial more or less put him on the stand, with a defendant who would say anything to keep her ass from going to prison for the rest of her life.

Those girls are not going to be happy knowing what their mother did. It's not like with their mother's limited education and background that they can ever escape their little west Tennessee town. This crime is going to afflict generations of that family.

Senor

Yes, your right about one thing for sure! If this were a man, he'd either be sitting on death row, or would have gotten a life sentence. That's what Mary should have gotten- a life sentence! She's a murderer, who took the life of her husband, a preacher, her childrens father! But it's condoned because she was abused? No justice at all served in this case.

[deacon]

Yes, your right about one thing for sure! If this were a man, he'd either be sitting on death row, or would have gotten a life sentence. That's what Mary should have gotten- a life sentence! She's a murderer, who took the life of her husband, a preacher, her childrens father! But it's condoned because she was abused? No justice at all served in this case.

Alledgedly abused. No proof.

[Marian Paroo]

I just don't know. I have a HS friend who lives down there now. Converted to Christianity and the Republican Party, is very religious and very pro-DP.

She says there is a lot of hidden abuse in those churches and is on Winkler's side, but apologetically said she cannot tell me any details as I am an "outider."

At first she said she would, but then changed her mind.:shrug:

[cookiewench]

[QUOTE=MMVIII;9197115]http://www.swartzcreek.net/assets/sermons/RedefiningSin.pdf.


What did Matthew's famous preacher grandfather, the great Wendell Winkler, have to say about Lesbians?

''For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature''


Huh? That's not what Wendell Winkler had to say about Lesbians, it's what the Bible says. It's a direct quote from the Bible.

I can see having a problem with it. I have a problem with it - but then, I'm not a Christian, so I don't feel compelled to accept it as either "law" or "truth".

But what would you expect a Christian teacher to refer to other than the Bible? The Bible is the foundation of a Christian's belief system.

If you don't believe that it's valid, walk away from it - but don't act horrified that a Christian pastor uses the Bible as his reference book, any more than you should be horrified if a Rabbi uses the Torah as his.

[SaraSidle]

Cookiewench It is so good to have you back. I have missed you!

[cookiewench]

Cookiewench It is so good to have you back. I have missed you!

Hi! I just moseyed in to see what was new here. Looks like there are some new posters here. That's a good thing.

[SaraSidle]

Hi! I just moseyed in to see what was new here. Looks like there are some new posters here. That's a good thing.

yes there are new ones and still some when you were here. new posters are always good. I hope you are doing well.

[Marian Paroo]

[QUOTE=MMVIII;9197115]http://www.swartzcreek.net/assets/sermons/RedefiningSin.pdf.


What did Matthew's famous preacher grandfather, the great Wendell Winkler, have to say about Lesbians?

''For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature''


Huh? That's not what Wendell Winkler had to say about Lesbians, it's what the Bible says. It's a direct quote from the Bible.

I can see having a problem with it. I have a problem with it - but then, I'm not a Christian, so I don't feel compelled to accept it as either "law" or "truth".

But what would you expect a Christian teacher to refer to other than the Bible? The Bible is the foundation of a Christian's belief system.

If you don't believe that it's valid, walk away from it - but don't act horrified that a Christian pastor uses the Bible as his reference book, any more than you should be horrified if a Rabbi uses the Torah as his.

When you say Bible do you mean NT?

Nothing at all in the OT (first part of that is the Torah aka Pentateuch) about lesbians.

Rabbis have to go to the Talmud to find nasty things about us!

[cookiewench]

[QUOTE=cookiewench;9234245]

When you say Bible do you mean NT?

Nothing at all in the OT (first part of that is the Torah aka Pentateuch) about lesbians.

Rabbis have to go to the Talmud to find nasty things about us!


Hi, Marian.

I was responding to the poster who said the Winkler preached "''For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature'', and simply pointing out that this was not Winkler's.

Going strictly by memory, I believe this quote is from the New Testament - perhaps Paul?

From what I read on the history of the background of this quote, it referred to a "fad" of the day where women were using mechanical devices for masturbation. Whether or not lesbianism was included in that admonishment is anyone's guess.

What I just don't get is someone bashing a Christan preacher for quoting........the Bible! What else would one expect him to use as a reference book?

And what I really don't get is that those who bash Winkler for his teachings refuse to bash Mary for ascribing to exactly that same belief system (notice that I say "ascribe to" rather than "believe", as I don't think that Mary believed in anything except whatever she wanted at the moment).

No one forced Mary to ascribe to this belief system. This is American, and one can choose whatever religion they want, or no religion at all.

The sexists/misogynists seem to believe that women are so weak that they can't make up their own minds about what to believe or not believe, whereas for men, it was a choice.

When I've asked Mary's defenders what they feel about the fact that Mary has remained within the Winkler's sect, they'll respond with something like...."one step at a time". Well, it's been several years and I haven't heard anything about Mary disclaiming the CofC.

She seems just as much involved in that culture as she was before she killed her husband.

[deacon]

[QUOTE=Marian Paroo;9236203]


Hi, Marian.

I was responding to the poster who said the Winkler preached "''For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature'', and simply pointing out that this was not Winkler's.

Going strictly by memory, I believe this quote is from the New Testament - perhaps Paul?

From what I read on the history of the background of this quote, it referred to a "fad" of the day where women were using mechanical devices for masturbation. Whether or not lesbianism was included in that admonishment is anyone's guess.

What I just don't get is someone bashing a Christan preacher for quoting........the Bible! What else would one expect him to use as a reference book?

And what I really don't get is that those who bash Winkler for his teachings refuse to bash Mary for ascribing to exactly that same belief system (notice that I say "ascribe to" rather than "believe", as I don't think that Mary believed in anything except whatever she wanted at the moment).

No one forced Mary to ascribe to this belief system. This is American, and one can choose whatever religion they want, or no religion at all.

The sexists/misogynists seem to believe that women are so weak that they can't make up their own minds about what to believe or not believe, whereas for men, it was a choice.

When I've asked Mary's defenders what they feel about the fact that Mary has remained within the Winkler's sect, they'll respond with something like...."one step at a time". Well, it's been several years and I haven't heard anything about Mary disclaiming the CofC.

She seems just as much involved in that culture as she was before she killed her husband.

It comes from the book of Leviticus. The law. at least on reference.

[Marian Paroo]

Leviticus? Not in the original!

Nothing about woman-woman sex in the OT original. Which, as I said, is why the rabbis spent so much time on it in the Talmud. The term they used there is usually "paving", by which I guess they mean rubbing with one's thigh, tribadism.

It's been said the reason that there is nothing in the OT is because whoever wrote it (another argument entirely! Written by or inspired by and all that) figured that if one lady was "impure" for two weeks and the other lady was "impure" for two weeks, when could they do anything.

Someone didn't realise that women in close contact (think college dorms) tend to be "impure" at the same time. Fascinating. A lot has been written on that phenomena!

[cookiewench]

[QUOTE=cookiewench;9236340]

It comes from the book of Leviticus. The law. at least on reference.

It is from Romans....which is the New Testament......I believe it was written by Paul..."A Letter From Paul To The Romans".

And correct me if I'm wrong, but the Holy Bible does contain both the Old and NNew Testament, and the Holy Bible is supposed to be the guidebook for Christians, is it not?

If not, why hasn't the Old Testament been edited out of the Bible?

[Mother HEN]

So glad Mary Carol and her daughters were reunited.

So glad they're doing well.

So glad the men of the Winkler dynasty have been shown to be what they are/were.

So glad Mary Carol had such great lawyers.

So glad Dan's attempts to use the girls' money to fight their mother FAILED.



:patriot:

[Marian Paroo]

To the Jews the Bible is the Torah (Five Books of Moses), the Prophets, and the Writings. The Apocrypha has no official standing, but some of it shows up in lore, legend, discussion.

The NT is not recognized.

In fact, in Hebrew the term "Old Testament" doesn't exist, because that would imply that it has been found wanting and replaced. I use OT when I am discussing with Christians, because that is the term that they are familiar with.

[Mother HEN]

:no:

:no:


http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/tn/2009/25/articles/chancellor_overrules_motion_dismiss_mary_winklers. html

What about the $30,000.00 that Dan paid Keith Ablow to testify against Mary, whom he hadn't met?

:no:

[cookiewench]

To the Jews the Bible is the Torah (Five Books of Moses), the Prophets, and the Writings. The Apocrypha has no official standing, but some of it shows up in lore, legend, discussion.

The NT is not recognized.

In fact, in Hebrew the term "Old Testament" doesn't exist, because that would imply that it has been found wanting and replaced. I use OT when I am discussing with Christians, because that is the term that they are familiar with.

I realize that, but it seemed that some posters didn't understand that Christian use both Old AND New Testaments in their Bible.

Not that that's an issue in this particular topic, as the quote came from the NT.

If someone has issues with it, they should (IMO) take issue with the writer (in this case, Paul), not the preacher who refers to the writer when preaching. He's just doing his job, and the church members are listening willingly, as was Mary.

I wouldn't go to a Hindu Temple and expect to hear admonishments from the Bible, but if I went to a Christian church, that's what I'd expect to hear.

[SaraSidle]

:no:

:no:


http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/tn/2009/25/articles/chancellor_overrules_motion_dismiss_mary_winklers. html

What about the $30,000.00 that Dan paid Keith Ablow to testify against Mary, whom he hadn't met?

:no:

I never thought you would come back Mother HEN. good to see you

[Mother HEN]

Thanks, Sara.

I would have looked in before, but I forgot the name of the board. Googled today and found it.

Nothing new, apparently, about the Dan Winkler saga. (No news is good news.)

(Funny that those who were wrong all along have never apologized to those of us who were right all along.)

[SaraSidle]

Thanks, Sara.

I would have looked in before, but I forgot the name of the board. Googled today and found it.

Nothing new, apparently, about the Dan Winkler saga. (No news is good news.)

(Funny that those who were wrong all along have never apologized to those of us who were right all along.)


That would be the last thing I would expect is an apology.
But i am glad they are together and I hope they are doing well considering.
nice to know the media is not hounding them.

[Mother HEN]

That would be the last thing I would expect is an apology.
But i am glad they are together and I hope they are doing well considering.
nice to know the media is not hounding them.

I guess it is unrealistic to expect an apology, but after all the tattlemail and the long turgid posts, full of personal attacks, lies about inside information, lies about the cult, etc., etc., it would be nice.

Agree that it's good media are leaving them alone.

(Some media did a good job. GLAMOUR, the Jackson Sun, the Corinthian, local t.v., etc. Even that one c of C paper, forget the name, not the Wayne Jackson one, but the other one.)

(Some media did a terrible job, especially the old version of this board before "freshwater" was fired. S/he insisted on calling the killing a "murder", months ahead of the trial. Oprah was terrible, also, imho. She owes Mary Carol an apology.)

(It would be interesting to know what they're all up to: Dan and Diane, Glen and Brandi (!), the FUND guy --Eddie Thompson -- and his wife, Matthew's brothers and sisters-in-law, the doctor/hunting buddy/elder, etc., etc.)

[SaraSidle]

I guess it is unrealistic to expect an apology, but after all the tattlemail and the long turgid posts, full of personal attacks, lies about inside information, lies about the cult, etc., etc., it would be nice.

Agree that it's good media are leaving them alone.

(Some media did a good job. GLAMOUR, the Jackson Sun, the Corinthian, local t.v., etc. Even that one c of C paper, forget the name, not the Wayne Jackson one, but the other one.)

(Some media did a terrible job, especially the old version of this board before "freshwater" was fired. S/he insisted on calling the killing a "murder", months ahead of the trial. Oprah was terrible, also, imho. She owes Mary Carol an apology.)

(It would be interesting to know what they're all up to: Dan and Diane, Glen and Brandi (!), the FUND guy --Eddie Thompson -- and his wife, Matthew's brothers and sisters-in-law, the doctor/hunting buddy/elder, etc., etc.)


I imagine there is not much new is going on. same old same old. Just tucked into their religion. IMO