Random Discussions On The Case

[William Anthony]

so you're thinking that when orenthal took the sweatsuit off, his lingerie got stuck in the arms and legs? :eek:

No, I am thinking more along the lines that when LE was rummaging through personal items and trying to find something sinister, they failed to look at the size and when the lingerie fell out during their rummaging, they placed them in the washer with the sweat suit, claiming to have found them there. Hence, when the picture was taken and the sweats like other things did not fit, they disappeared. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

[martin II]

pssst -- orenthal didn't purchase the gloves for himself -- evidence proved that Nicole purchased two pair of the exact model and brand of gloves -- pictures/film proved that orenthal had worn the exact model and brand of gloves.

Nicole gave a pair of the gloves to a friend. the sales receipt did not identify the color of the gloves. The prosecution expert testified he could not tell the color of the gloves from the pictures.
But after all of this. The gloves he was asked to try on did not fit.So it does not matter what nicole baught.

[martin II]

The book plays down the importance of the now-infamous glove demonstration, however, in which prosecutor Christopher Darden had Simpson try on the evidence gloves found at his estate and at the crime scene. The gloves appeared not to fit, but the jurors said they weren't convinced.

"Those gloves fit," Bess wrote. "He wasn't putting them on right."

"Sure," added Rubin-Jackson, "you know, they fit. ... I must have had an expression on my face because as he stood there, it was like he was talking to me, and he went, 'They don't fit.' They would have fit anybody."

ok

two jurors made comments that the gloves fit. Obviously tem thought they did not fit. obviously the glove fitting was not a major issue for these two as they voted not guilty as the other 10 did.

[William Anthony]

pssst -- orenthal didn't purchase the gloves for himself -- evidence proved that Nicole purchased two pair of the exact model and brand of gloves -- pictures/film proved that orenthal had worn the exact model and brand of gloves.

The stitching Rubin claimed to have identified, which many claim identified the gloves as a certain brand.

September, 12th

MR. BLASIER: Now, you made some effort to try and find out what other manufacturers in the world might have used Brossier stitching and produced gloves without stitching, correct?

MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.

MR. BLASIER: And how many different companies did you check with?

MR. RUBIN: I only checked with two.

MR. BLASIER: There are a lot more companies than that in the world, aren't there?

MR. RUBIN: In the world? Yes.

MR. BLASIER: Now, did you ever check with any glove companies in Europe or Italy?

MR. RUBIN: No, I did not.

MR. BLASIER: In Europe?

MR. RUBIN: No, I did not.

MR. BLASIER: Other glove companies other than the two that you've told us about?

MR. RUBIN: No, I did not.

MR. BLASIER: And what are those two companies?

MR. RUBIN: Fownes gloves, F-O-W-N-E-S, and Mr. Zuckerware's company, grand-o gloves.

MR. BLASIER: And Grand-O does produce a glove with Brossier stitching, doesn't it?

MR. RUBIN: They told me that they had produced a glove with Brossier stitching a couple of years ago in small quantity.

MR. BLASIER: And they had it in stock?

MR. RUBIN: They didn't mention that to me.

MR. BLASIER: Okay. So the two companies--the only two companies that you checked with, one of them does this stitch, correct?

MR. RUBIN: One out of two.

MR. BLASIER: Now, if--do you have any idea how many other glove manufacturers there are in the world?

MR. RUBIN: I have no idea.

MR. BLASIER: If--would you agree that there's over a hundred other glove manufacturers in various parts in the world that--go ahead.

MR. RUBIN: If you define glove manufacturers as anybody who is manufacturing quantity and distributing it on their own, a person who has six employees in a small shop technically is a glove manufacturer. So I'd say in places like Italy, Hungary and certain other eastern European countries, there could be hundreds of manufacturers. They would relatively be quite small as far as production.

MR. BLASIER: How many of those have a Brossier machine?

MR. RUBIN: I have no idea.

MR. BLASIER: Now, you know that--you've seen this stitch on an Italian glove some years ago, didn't you?

MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.

MR. BLASIER: From a small company?

MR. RUBIN: I don't know what company it was from.

MR. BLASIER: Have you made any effort to contact singer to find out other machines there are throughout the world?

MR. RUBIN: No, I have not.

[weezer]

i never said anything about a maid. but the clothes could have been put into the washer before 6/12.

you mean after the maid left Friday afternoon and the day of the clothes were discovered in the washing machine? what day would you believe that to be? orenthal said he didn't wash any clothes. arnelle denied washing clothes. the maid said they weren't there on Friday.

[weezer]

No, I am thinking more along the lines that when LE was rummaging through personal items and trying to find something sinister, they failed to look at the size and when the lingerie fell out during their rummaging, they placed them in the washer with the sweat suit, claiming to have found them there. Hence, when the picture was taken and the sweats like other things did not fit, they disappeared. Those are my thoughts on the matter.

ahh -- so you're thinking when LE was 'rummaging' through orenthal's personal items, his lingerie fell out and they put them in the washing machine with the sweatsuit?

[weezer]

Nicole gave a pair of the gloves to a friend. the sales receipt did not identify the color of the gloves. The prosecution expert testified he could not tell the color of the gloves from the pictures.
But after all of this. The gloves he was asked to try on did not fit.So it does not matter what nicole baught.

sure it matters -- it proves that Nicole bought gloves in that exact brand and model and it proves that orenthal lied about owning/wearing those gloves.

[martin II]

The book plays down the importance of the now-infamous glove demonstration, however, in which prosecutor Christopher Darden had Simpson try on the evidence gloves found at his estate and at the crime scene. The gloves appeared not to fit, but the jurors said they weren't convinced.

"Those gloves fit," Bess wrote. "He wasn't putting them on right."

"Sure," added Rubin-Jackson, "you know, they fit. ... I must have had an expression on my face because as he stood there, it was like he was talking to me, and he went, 'They don't fit.' They would have fit anybody."

Weezer

Here is how i think it works. Two jurors thought the gloves fit oj. But when they heard Mazzola lie on the stand about ojs blood samples,They figured forget the gloves,someone substituted ojs blood samples So i don't trust the DNA results.When they realized there was missing oj blood and Vanhatter carried the blood around on his personn they said SOMETHING wrong with all this blood evidence.imo

martin II

[William Anthony]

ahh -- so you're thinking when LE was 'rummaging' through orenthal's personal items, his lingerie fell out and they put them in the washing machine with the sweatsuit?

No, I think that is what you think. I think they were rummaging through everyone's clothes.

[martin II]

sure it matters -- it proves that Nicole bought gloves in that exact brand and model and it proves that orenthal lied about owning/wearing those gloves.

You are guessing that the gloves nicole baught was received by oj.

[William Anthony]

sure it matters -- it proves that Nicole bought gloves in that exact brand and model and it proves that orenthal lied about owning/wearing those gloves.

Only, if you begin with the assumption that the gloves in the videos were the same as the gloves Ms. NBS bought. However, if you read the cross, it becomes clear that Rubin began with that same assumption.

[old_soul]

If you look at Rubins testimony under cross he was asked in his tight fiting gloves would shrink if say a few ccs of liquid was applied and he resonded NO.

Martin, if you are going to give me an answer with no fact, then I will ask you for links. He stated the gloves shrunk. Which means there was either more blood than 3cc OR because of the process in which it was kept, they shrunk.

1cc=1ml
1 tsp. = 5cc = 5ml
1 Tablespoon = 15cc = 15 ml

1/teasp -= 1.25ml or cc
1/2 teasp = 2.5 ml or cc
3/4 teasp = 3.75 ml or cc
1 teasp = 5 ml or cc

No way, no how was 3cc/approximately 3/4 teaspoon of blood on that glove, unless we went by the info in my first paragraph, that it was from the storage of the speciman. Whilethe killer obviously lost his glove in the fight with Goldman, and there was much more blood, I repeat myself, because according to testimony, the glove shrunk. That means that otherwise, it WOULD have fitOJ.

Here is the link for his testimony. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Rubintest.html

I also correct myself...They are Aris Leather gloves, not Aris Isotoners. Please read to see just how many were sold. Rare.

[William Anthony]

September 12th

"MR. BLASIER: Heat packs. As I understand your testimony, you think that if you have a heat pack inside the palm of your glove, that would cause the glove to shrink if it was wet?

MR. RUBIN: I'm not qualified or knowledgeable enough about heat packs to tell the effect. If there is "X" amount of excessive heat and the gloves were wet, the two worst elements that would make a glove shrink are being wet and then having excessive heat. And what I mean by excessive heat is anything above normal 68 to 72 degrees.

MR. BLASIER: The gloves are on your hand and your heat pack is in the palm and it causes the gloves to dry before they're taken off. They're not going to shrink while they're on your hand with the heat pack in there, are they?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. No foundation.

MR. BLASIER: Are they?

MR. BLASIER: I'm sorry.

THE COURT: You can answer the question.

MR. RUBIN: I wouldn't think so.

MR. BLASIER: So wouldn't you agree that the heat pack is going to cause the gloves to dry quicker before they're taken off so that they're not likely to shrink when they're taken off?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. No foundation.

THE COURT: Can you answer the question?

MR. RUBIN: It's possible.

MR. BLASIER: Now, the Renken pictures and the Guidera pictures are three football seasons apart, aren't they?

MR. RUBIN: I believe they are.

MR. BLASIER: And there's no sign of any shrinkage at all. In fact, the Guidera picture, the gloves look bigger, don't they?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That calls for speculation.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. DARDEN: Compound.

THE COURT: It is. Rephrase the question. Hold on. Rephrase the question.

MR. BLASIER: The Guidera gloves at least from the picture look bigger than the Renken gloves, don't they?

MR. RUBIN: It's very difficult for me to establish the exact size of the gloves in the Guidera picture. I've seen many Renken pictures. I have a better feeling, and I also have seen video during the same game of the Renken pictures. So I have a much better grasp on that particular date and time.

MR. BLASIER: Now, you've testified that you've been the most accurate and the most honest that you can?

MR. RUBIN: I've done my best.

MR. BLASIER: Now, in your search for accuracy and completeness, have you tried to be as complete as possible?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. That's argumentative.

THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question. It's vague.

MR. BLASIER: After you called the second glove company and found out that they had this equipment, you stopped looking, didn't you?

MR. DARDEN: Asked and answered, Judge.

THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. It's already been asked.

MR. BLASIER: Were you concerned that if you looked any further, you might not be invited to the victory party?

MR. RUBIN: That's ridiculous."

Remember Rubin asked to be invited to the prosecution's victory party.

[William Anthony]

I will not bore you with the exact techniques used to rebut Rubin's testimony on shrinkage and will only post the conclusion based on scientific tests to determine shrinkage.

September 18th

"PROF. MACDONELL: I would have to say it's negligible. They're certainly not congruent because they were done at different times, but I put them down as fairly as possible. That is to say, without any lateral teasing around to stretch them one way or another. Just laid them flat, did the experiment, when they're dried, laid them flat again, and they are not congruent and that is, they're not the same copy. But when you place one over the other and move it around slightly, I could detect no shrinkage or no linear or vertical or horizontal shrinkage at all or change in shift."-Reasonable doubt.

[weezer]

No, I think that is what you think. I think they were rummaging through everyone's clothes.

well there you have it. you believe LE was all about framing orenthal so they rummaged through 'everyone's clothes' until they found lingerie that they could put with the sweatsuit in the washing machine.

I believe orenthal took the sweatsuit off in the washroom, put them in the washer, and called arnelle to start the washer. arnelle did not expect LE to look inside the washer and see freshly washed women's lingerie and a sweatsuit or her laundry basket in the laundry room.

if you're going to believe in conspiracy, at least pick some that there is evidence happened. like mine about arnelle and the washing machine! ;)

[weezer]

I will not bore you with the exact techniques used to rebut Rubin's testimony on shrinkage and will only post the conclusion based on scientific tests to determine shrinkage.

September 18th

"PROF. MACDONELL: I would have to say it's negligible. They're certainly not congruent because they were done at different times, but I put them down as fairly as possible. That is to say, without any lateral teasing around to stretch them one way or another. Just laid them flat, did the experiment, when they're dried, laid them flat again, and they are not congruent and that is, they're not the same copy. But when you place one over the other and move it around slightly, I could detect no shrinkage or no linear or vertical or horizontal shrinkage at all or change in shift."-Reasonable doubt.

have you done the experiment william? have you taken your leather gloves --bought for you by someone else and not necessarily in your size -- soaked them in blood and left flat to dry for months -- put on latex gloves and try the gloves on?

that's what I thought -- ;)

[William Anthony]

well there you have it. you believe LE was all about framing orenthal so they rummaged through 'everyone's clothes' until they found lingerie that they could put with the sweatsuit in the washing machine.

I believe orenthal took the sweatsuit off in the washroom, put them in the washer, and called arnelle to start the washer. arnelle did not expect LE to look inside the washer and see freshly washed women's lingerie and a sweatsuit or her laundry basket in the laundry room.

if you're going to believe in conspiracy, at least pick some that there is evidence happened. like mine about arnelle and the washing machine! ;)

I don't believe we should speculate about anything but that is your choice and I have the right to offer an alternate belief. What I know is that there was no evidence that Simpson wore the sweat allegedly found in the washing machine. Therefore, you have reasonable doubt on that issue.

[William Anthony]

have you done the experiment william? have you taken your leather gloves --bought for you by someone else and not necessarily in your size -- soaked them in blood and left flat to dry for months -- put on latex gloves and try the gloves on?

that's what I thought -- ;)

Have you done any experiments or research on glove stitching or shrinkage?:) So, do you think that once the blood dried, the gloves continued to shrink over months, smile?

[martin II]

have you done the experiment william? have you taken your leather gloves --bought for you by someone else and not necessarily in your size -- soaked them in blood and left flat to dry for months -- put on latex gloves and try the gloves on?

that's what I thought -- ;)

How do you deal with Rubins testimony on cross that if some liquid was applied to his thin expensive gloves would they shrink and he answered NO.

Rubin also testified that looking at that picture he could not tell what color they were.imo

[weezer]

Have you done any experiments or research on glove stitching or shrinkage?:) So, do you think that once the blood dried, the gloves continued to shrink over months, smile?

nope -- what I believe is exactly what the expert testified to and the jury said: the gloves fit -- orenthal just didn't want them to.

[martin II]

Have you done any experiments or research on glove stitching or shrinkage?:) So, do you think that once the blood dried, the gloves continued to shrink over months, smile?

Weezer

The glove had blood drops on then,They were not SOAKED in blood or any other liquid.

[martin II]

Martin, if you are going to give me an answer with no fact, then I will ask you for links. He stated the gloves shrunk. Which means there was either more blood than 3cc OR because of the process in which it was kept, they shrunk.

1cc=1ml
1 tsp. = 5cc = 5ml
1 Tablespoon = 15cc = 15 ml

1/teasp -= 1.25ml or cc
1/2 teasp = 2.5 ml or cc
3/4 teasp = 3.75 ml or cc
1 teasp = 5 ml or cc

No way, no how was 3cc/approximately 3/4 teaspoon of blood on that glove, unless we went by the info in my first paragraph, that it was from the storage of the speciman. Whilethe killer obviously lost his glove in the fight with Goldman, and there was much more blood, I repeat myself, because according to testimony, the glove shrunk. That means that otherwise, it WOULD have fitOJ.

Here is the link for his testimony. http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Rubintest.html

I also correct myself...They are Aris Leather gloves, not Aris Isotoners. Please read to see just how many were sold. Rare.


See the end of Rubins testimony under cross by Cochran.

[martin II]

MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Rubin, just a few more questions. Do you--are you aware of how much 3 cc's of liquid amounts to?

MR. RUBIN: No, I'm not. Excuse me. 3 cc's?

MR. COCHRAN: Yes.

MR. RUBIN: Yes. I'm very familiar with 3 cc's.

MR. COCHRAN: And do you think that--I want you to assume arguendo that 3 cc's of liquid is almost two gloves. Do you
think that amount of liquid would result in your gloves, your very expensive Aris gloves, shrinking 10 to 15 percent?

MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Improper hypothetical.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. RUBIN: 3 cc's of liquid would have no effect whatsoever on those gloves.

MR. COCHRAN: So if there's testimony that's there only 3 cc's of liquid on those gloves, should have no effect at all? They
should be exactly the same size; is that correct?

MR. DARDEN: Objection. Misstates the testimony.

MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking.

THE COURT: Overruled.

MR. COCHRAN: Is that right?

MR. RUBIN: That's correct.

[fgump2]

fgump2,

The problem with the vial of blood is that Vanatter said he brought it to Dennis Fung. When he gave that blood vial to Fung, he transfered the chain of custody and interity to Fung. Fung was responsible and that vial and he did not know where it was. Chain of custody is very relevant in any case. However, in all fairness to Fung, he may have been too shocked by the fact that Vanatter brought it to him in the first place.

What never made any sense to me is why Vanatter would taken the blood vial, period, let alone back to Bundy. To the best of my knowedge, Dennis Fung collects evidence ---- he does not doing the actual testing. After the nurse drew the blood, which agency is now responsible for it?

What errors did Dr. Lee make? If you are talking about the footprints then you are forgetting that there was more then one place that showed different footprints, like on Ron's jeans and the envelope.

And I think I asked you this before, if Dr. Lee is right about the footprints, does that mean Simpson is innocent?

************************************************** ****
One of the harshest criticisms I have of both the press and the defense was that the defense nit picked about irrelevant mistakes of the LAPD, and the press took it way too seriously. V Bugliosi said that there will always be careless mistakes in the way the police process evidence, and the OJS murder trial was about average in this respect.
I think Henry Lee’s mistakes were worse than Mazola’s and Fung's combined. One of the mistakes Henry Lee made was concerned hair just after OJS was arrested. Mr. Lee told the police that they (the defense) would provide a bout 2 or 3 hairs from OJS, but wouldn’t tell where the hairs came from on OJS’s body (head, arms, etc). The prosecution found a book written by Mr. Lee in which he wrote that the prosecution should have more than 20 hairs, with should be labeled as coming from certain parts of the body, some from certain parts of the head, various parts of the arms, probably more. The prosecution got the hairs they wanted, but this mistake alone shoots down Mr. Lee’s integrity, or his competence, maybe both. And yet, even a lot of pro prosecution press people (to say nothing of the pro defense people) seemed to think Henry Lee did a great job, and that Fung, and Mazzola were incompetent. This amazes me.
Henry Lee also made mistakes on the foot prints. Some of the foot prints he thought were foot prints in blood were trowel marks in the cement. One of them was a footprint in the cement. Henry Lee became angry after the trial when a reporter questioned him about the foot prints.
The fact of the matter is that where you find much human behavior, you will find careless mistakes. Confusing trowel marks in the cement with foot prints in blood is a serious mistake, not being able to remember whether Fung or Mazzola did something 5 months isn’t serious. The defense also made big deals about other mistakes as well. One of the detectives took a pair of OJS shoes home for a few days. This was against LAPD rules, but the defense was unable to show either that OJS’s rights were violated, or that this influenced the final results of the prosecutions case. I could see giving the detective a verbal rap on the knuckles for this, but not mentioning it in the trial. jThe mistake with the shoes may have been absent mindedness.
Martin and others have repeatedly hammered the prosecution and LAPD for careless mistakes, but .the defense, including Henry Lee and Johnnie Cochran was hardly error free. Mr. Cochran had at least 15 violations of the mutual discovery act. Martin has made numerous misspelled words in his posts; this isn’t a problem for me; but I think Martin is hypocritical for making a big deal out of other people’s careless mistakes.
It is easy to hold a magnifying glass over other peoples work. You can always find some mistakes. But not all mistakes are worth talking about at the trial.
If Henry Lee was correct about the foot prints, that would weaken the prosecutions case, but not by very much. It would indicate the possibility of a second assailant. But the a reasonable person could still convict if they thought there might have been a second assailant. In any case a reasonable person might have thought that the H Lee foot prints were either by a cop, or by one of the people who discovered the bodies. Since Henry Lee no longer wanted to talk about the foot prints after the trial finished, I take that as his way of admitting he was wrong.

[fgump2]

Testimimony of mr Norris. A courier standing at the lmo and curb talking to oj.
Note his description of ojs demeanor.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you have a--can you tell us what--how Mr. Simpson appeared during the period of time that you saw him?

MR. NORRIS: Umm, he just appeared like, you know, nonchalant, just like he was going, you know, getting ready to leave on a flight. I mean--

MR. SHAPIRO: How did he look to you? Could you describe that to the jury?

MR. NORRIS: He looked natural. He was dressed real nice, you know, had on like stone-washed type denim outfit, you know, trying to look kind of young, you know, just--I mean he was just, you know, just trying to be cool, you know.

MR. SHAPIRO: And would you describe his demeanor to the jury?

MR. NORRIS: He just--I mean, he just was like smooth, just, you know, hey, just walking through like, "I'm O.J."

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be rushed in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be distracted in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be preoccupied in any way?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you--you said he was wearing some stone-washed clothes. Is that similar to a denim material?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. Like a blue jean type material.

MR. SHAPIRO: And can you describe the hue of that material?

MR. NORRIS: Excuse me?

MR. SHAPIRO: The darkness or lightness of that material.

MR. NORRIS: It's more of a light color. That's--it's like a stone wash. It's like a lighter denim, lighter blue jean type. It wasn't like a dark like 405 type blue jean. It was, you know, much lighter.

THE COURT: You mean 501.

MR. NORRIS: 501. Right. Sorry.

THE COURT: Just relax, Mr. Norris.

MR. NORRIS: Okay.

MR. SHAPIRO: Now, during the period that you saw O.J. Simpson, did you observe his hands?

MR. NORRIS: Yes.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did you see any cuts on his hands?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: See any band aids on his hands?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: See any bruises on his face?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did he appear to be sweating?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Did anything at all appear to be out of the ordinary to you when you saw Mr. Simpson?

MR. NORRIS: No.

MR. SHAPIRO: Was he cordial?

MR. NORRIS: Yes. Very. I mentioned to him that Marcus was out there earlier. I had heard Marcus was there, and he said, "Yes, I know." And I asked him about his son, if he was still at SC, and he said, "No. He's through."

MR. SHAPIRO: So he had enough time for small talk for you?

MR. NORRIS: Right.

MR. SHAPIRO: And you said initially he told your friend he had to take care of his luggage, but then he came back and gave the autograph?

MR. NORRIS: Right. That's correct.

MR. SHAPIRO: And do you know if your friend Michael still has that autograph?

************************************************** *******
Petrocelli's book quotes two experts on murders of women by former lovers, and both said that it is common for the killer to be tension free after the act. The experts were Park Dietz and Donald Dutton. Also OJS had a reputation for being able to conceal his tension. This is common among people who spend time behind a mike. Some years ago a woman TV news caster committed suicide while on the air. People watched and re-watched her last broad cast, and could see no sign of emotional upset until she pulled gun out, and shot herself in the head. A man who worked as a newscaster told me that most newscasters become good at concealing negative emotions.
OJS's behavior after he got back to LA, and after the acquittal were both incriminating. After he got back to LA he was more interested in the following two items than he was in his kids: getting his golf clubs, and in what Kato told the cops. After the acquittal he showed as much or more anger against Fred Goldman than he did against the cops.

[weezer]

************************************************** *******
Petrocelli's book quotes two experts on murders of women by former lovers, and both said that it is common for the killer to be tension free after the act. The experts were Park Dietz and Donald Dutton. Also OJS had a reputation for being able to conceal his tension. This is common among people who spend time behind a mike. Some years ago a woman TV news caster committed suicide while on the air. People watched and re-watched her last broad cast, and could see no sign of emotional upset until she pulled gun out, and shot herself in the head. A man who worked as a newscaster told me that most newscasters become good at concealing negative emotions.
OJS's behavior after he got back to LA, and after the acquittal were both incriminating. After he got back to LA he was more interested in the following two items than he was in his kids: getting his golf clubs, and in what Kato told the cops. After the acquittal he showed as much or more anger against Fred Goldman than he did against the cops.

I've always found his anger toward the Goldmans as compared to the cops that 'framed' him AND the murderer who viciously murdered two people outside the windows where his sleeping children were completely odd. . . .

[martin II]

old soul

cochran used 3 cc in his question or 3 ml.

I don't know how many blood drops were on the glove but by the picture the glove was not Soaked in blood.

Previously i and another poster used a conversion chart to try to get to the drops in 3 cc.

you say 1 cc = 1ml

conversion chart.
1 ml = 19.47 Drops. x 3 = 58.41 drops on the glove using Cochrans suggestion.





=

[William Anthony]

nope -- what I believe is exactly what the expert testified to and the jury said: the gloves fit -- orenthal just didn't want them to.

I believe what I saw and not what the expert, who wanted to be invited to the prosecution's victory party, said, despite his eyes.

[martin II]

************************************************** ****
One of the harshest criticisms I have of both the press and the defense was that the defense nit picked about irrelevant mistakes of the LAPD, and the press took it way too seriously. V Bugliosi said that there will always be careless mistakes in the way the police process evidence, and the OJS murder trial was about average in this respect.
I think Henry Lee’s mistakes were worse than Mazola’s and Fung's combined. One of the mistakes Henry Lee made was concerned hair just after OJS was arrested. Mr. Lee told the police that they (the defense) would provide a bout 2 or 3 hairs from OJS, but wouldn’t tell where the hairs came from on OJS’s body (head, arms, etc). The prosecution found a book written by Mr. Lee in which he wrote that the prosecution should have more than 20 hairs, with should be labeled as coming from certain parts of the body, some from certain parts of the head, various parts of the arms, probably more. The prosecution got the hairs they wanted, but this mistake alone shoots down Mr. Lee’s integrity, or his competence, maybe both. And yet, even a lot of pro prosecution press people (to say nothing of the pro defense people) seemed to think Henry Lee did a great job, and that Fung, and Mazzola were incompetent. This amazes me.
Henry Lee also made mistakes on the foot prints. Some of the foot prints he thought were foot prints in blood were trowel marks in the cement. One of them was a footprint in the cement. Henry Lee became angry after the trial when a reporter questioned him about the foot prints.
The fact of the matter is that where you find much human behavior, you will find careless mistakes. Confusing trowel marks in the cement with foot prints in blood is a serious mistake, not being able to remember whether Fung or Mazzola did something 5 months isn’t serious. The defense also made big deals about other mistakes as well. One of the detectives took a pair of OJS shoes home for a few days. This was against LAPD rules, but the defense was unable to show either that OJS’s rights were violated, or that this influenced the final results of the prosecutions case. I could see giving the detective a verbal rap on the knuckles for this, but not mentioning it in the trial. jThe mistake with the shoes may have been absent mindedness.
Martin and others have repeatedly hammered the prosecution and LAPD for careless mistakes, but .the defense, including Henry Lee and Johnnie Cochran was hardly error free. Mr. Cochran had at least 15 violations of the mutual discovery act. Martin has made numerous misspelled words in his posts; this isn’t a problem for me; but I think Martin is hypocritical for making a big deal out of other people’s careless mistakes.
It is easy to hold a magnifying glass over other peoples work. You can always find some mistakes. But not all mistakes are worth talking about at the trial.
If Henry Lee was correct about the foot prints, that would weaken the prosecutions case, but not by very much. It would indicate the possibility of a second assailant. But the a reasonable person could still convict if they thought there might have been a second assailant. In any case a reasonable person might have thought that the H Lee foot prints were either by a cop, or by one of the people who discovered the bodies. Since Henry Lee no longer wanted to talk about the foot prints after the trial finished, I take that as his way of admitting he was wrong.

I don't think i am being hypocritical because my opinions of the testimony and evidence is different than yours. If my post causes you some problem you can always just skip them and move to the next.thanks.

[William Anthony]

************************************************** *******
Petrocelli's book quotes two experts on murders of women by former lovers, and both said that it is common for the killer to be tension free after the act. The experts were Park Dietz and Donald Dutton. Also OJS had a reputation for being able to conceal his tension. This is common among people who spend time behind a mike. Some years ago a woman TV news caster committed suicide while on the air. People watched and re-watched her last broad cast, and could see no sign of emotional upset until she pulled gun out, and shot herself in the head. A man who worked as a newscaster told me that most newscasters become good at concealing negative emotions.
OJS's behavior after he got back to LA, and after the acquittal were both incriminating. After he got back to LA he was more interested in the following two items than he was in his kids: getting his golf clubs, and in what Kato told the cops. After the acquittal he showed as much or more anger against Fred Goldman than he did against the cops.

This is exactly the type of testimony that is not allowed. It is too tenuous to prove anything and I thought you said that there was testimony that Simpson was rummaging through the trash can or appeared nervous. It seems to me that whatever he did are signs of guilt to some. It seems to me that, if Petrocelli had proven Simpson guilty of murder as he claimed, he would not have to rely on testimony that wasn't admitted during trial, shrug.

[martin II]

************************************************** *******
Petrocelli's book quotes two experts on murders of women by former lovers, and both said that it is common for the killer to be tension free after the act. The experts were Park Dietz and Donald Dutton. Also OJS had a reputation for being able to conceal his tension. This is common among people who spend time behind a mike. Some years ago a woman TV news caster committed suicide while on the air. People watched and re-watched her last broad cast, and could see no sign of emotional upset until she pulled gun out, and shot herself in the head. A man who worked as a newscaster told me that most newscasters become good at concealing negative emotions.
OJS's behavior after he got back to LA, and after the acquittal were both incriminating. After he got back to LA he was more interested in the following two items than he was in his kids: getting his golf clubs, and in what Kato told the cops. After the acquittal he showed as much or more anger against Fred Goldman than he did against the cops.


i am interested in trial testimony not what Petricelli or VB thinks as it was trial testimony that decided the case.

[fgump2]

I don't think i am being hypocritical because my opinions of the testimony and evidence is different than yours. If my post causes you some problem you can always just skip them and move to the next.thanks.

************************************************** ********
I don't have personal problems about it. I am not hot under the collar. I object making a big deal about trivial mistakes by the prosecution. As the judge in the civil trial said, this isn't a malpractice suit against the police. I objected the this unfair scrutiiny of the prosecution's mistakes both in the press and in books. It is a rich man's way of escaping justice. No low income person ever got off with this method. Martin and WA aren't the only ones to have double standards which favor the dream team.

[martin II]

nope -- what I believe is exactly what the expert testified to and the jury said: the gloves fit -- orenthal just didn't want them to.

Not THE jury. two jury member said so in their book.But those two voted not guilty.

[fgump2]

This is exactly the type of testimony that is not allowed. It is too tenuous to prove anything and I thought you said that there was testimony that Simpson was rummaging through the trash can or appeared nervous. It seems to me that whatever he did are signs of guilt to some. It seems to me that, if Petrocelli had proven Simpson guilty of murder as he claimed, he would not have to rely on testimony that wasn't admitted during trial, shrug.

************************************************** ********
I quoted it here because some people thought that Lenore Walker's testimony would have helped OJS. Also some postings (and some of the press druing the trial) said that because OJS seemed calm to some people doing his trip to Chicago, that was evidence he was innocent. Psychologists aren't very good at predicting behavior, so the courts are probably correct in keeping this testimony out. Petrocelli was trying to go all out to nail OJS, and the money spent of Dietz and others was probably not well spent.

[martin II]

************************************************** ********
I don't have personal problems about it. I am not hot under the collar. I object making a big deal about trivial mistakes by the prosecution. As the judge in the civil trial said, this isn't a malpractice suit against the police. I objected the this unfair scrutiiny of the prosecution's mistakes both in the press and in books. It is a rich man's way of escaping justice. No low income person ever got off with this method. Martin and WA aren't the only ones to have double standards which favor the dream team.

I try not to make personal negative comments about posters that have different opinions. You can leave my nic out of your post if that is ok with you.imo

[martin II]

I believe what I saw and not what the expert, who wanted to be invited to the prosecution's victory party, said, despite his eyes.

I think Rubin though he had done a great job to get oj convicted and he asked for a invite to what he thought would be a prosecution victory party and he would be a honored guest. What a dissapointment he must have felt when the prosecution told him he could catch the next flight to NY and that the victory party was being given by oj Simpson.imo

[William Anthony]

************************************************** ********
I don't have personal problems about it. I am not hot under the collar. I object making a big deal about trivial mistakes by the prosecution. As the judge in the civil trial said, this isn't a malpractice suit against the police. I objected the this unfair scrutiiny of the prosecution's mistakes both in the press and in books. It is a rich man's way of escaping justice. No low income person ever got off with this method. Martin and WA aren't the only ones to have double standards which favor the dream team.

My standards favor the evidence. It is what it is. The judge in the civil suit, who said this is "Basically, this is a civil murder trial", did not allow some evidence of LE mishandling of evidence by your statement. Is it any wonder the civil verdict was what it was?

[weezer]

I believe what I saw and not what the expert, who wanted to be invited to the prosecution's victory party, said, despite his eyes.

there's a whole lot about the trial that you believe despite evidence to the contrary. :shrug:

[William Anthony]

************************************************** ********
I quoted it here because some people thought that Lenore Walker's testimony would have helped OJS. Also some postings (and some of the press druing the trial) said that because OJS seemed calm to some people doing his trip to Chicago, that was evidence he was innocent. Psychologists aren't very good at predicting behavior, so the courts are probably correct in keeping this testimony out. Petrocelli was trying to go all out to nail OJS, and the money spent of Dietz and others was probably not well spent.

IIRC, portions of Dr. Walker's deposition were read during the trial and Dietz's was the subject of a Frye hearing. I am not basing my opinions on what I read in newspaper articles but from the televised trial and experience. LE relies on nervousness to find reasonable suspicion. Therefore, no nervousness equates to no reasonable suspicion to believe that Simpson did anything, or reasonable doubt, if you will.

[William Anthony]

there's a whole lot about the trial that you believe despite evidence to the contrary. :shrug:

That is what can be said of both of us. However, my concern is reasonable doubt which most of the legal profession, according to my understanding, believe the dream team led by the magnificent one did a great job of exposing.:shrug:

[weezer]

That is what can be said of both of us. However, my concern is reasonable doubt which most of the legal profession, according to my understanding, believe the dream team led by the magnificent one did a great job of exposing.:shrug:

ahh -- if only it was reasonable doubt and not 'no' doubt or 'we aren't listening' !!

[martin II]

ahh -- if only it was reasonable doubt and not 'no' doubt or 'we aren't listening' !!

But we all continue to support the CJS even if we don't like certain verdicts.Right.

[William Anthony]

ahh -- if only it was reasonable doubt and not 'no' doubt or 'we aren't listening' !!

You may be able to not listen to the opinions of those in the legal profession but, at this point I will say, should I be fortunate enough to become a licensed lawyer, I do not have the luxury of discounting their opinions and, judging for myself, I saw reasonable doubt.

[old_soul]

old soul

cochran used 3 cc in his question or 3 ml.

I don't know how many blood drops were on the glove but by the picture the glove was not Soaked in blood.

Previously i and another poster used a conversion chart to try to get to the drops in 3 cc.

you say 1 cc = 1ml

conversion chart.
1 ml = 19.47 Drops. x 3 = 58.41 drops on the glove using Cochrans suggestion.





=
Please see liquid metric conversion chart...Not nit picking here, 15-16 drops = 1 ml, which is the equivalent of 1cc. The amount of drops do not interest me, though. I am more concerned with a mere total 3/4 teaspoon of blood on the gloves...with all that violence and blood, this sounds like a mistake anyway.
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_medical.htm

[martin II]

Please see liquid metric conversion chart...Not nit picking here, 15-16 drops = 1 ml, which is the equivalent of 1cc. The amount of drops do not interest me, though. I am more concerned with a mere total 3/4 teaspoon of blood on the gloves...with all that violence and blood, this sounds like a mistake anyway.
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_medical.htm

From looking at the glove it does not look like more than 58 drops if that much.Either way i don't see that glove shringking 10 15 % from those blood drops.Rubin had testified that a persevative or something had been sprayed on the leather by the manufacture for some reason.

[martin II]

Please see liquid metric conversion chart...Not nit picking here, 15-16 drops = 1 ml, which is the equivalent of 1cc. The amount of drops do not interest me, though. I am more concerned with a mere total 3/4 teaspoon of blood on the gloves...with all that violence and blood, this sounds like a mistake anyway.
http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_medical.htm

I used Online Conversion chart which i have often used in my work.

[martin II]

"Psychologists aren't very good at predicting behavior."

Who said that ?

[fgump2]

"Psychologists aren't very good at predicting behavior."

Who said that ?

I wrote that. You are free to disagree with it. I am not an expert. I believe that some prison psychothrerapists made themselves look bad by pronouncing some inmate cured of anti social disorders, and then the guys goes out an commits some more crimes. It may be that psychologists are no worse at predicting psychological behavior than economists are at predicting economic behavior, but that isn't very good either.

[old_soul]

I wrote that. You are free to disagree with it. I am not an expert. I believe that some prison psychothrerapists made themselves look bad by pronouncing some inmate cured of anti social disorders, and then the guys goes out an commits some more crimes. It may be that psychologists are no worse at predicting psychological behavior than economists are at predicting economic behavior, but that isn't very good either.

It really depends on what area the psychologist is involved in. A developmental psychologist deals with behavioral development over the life span.

A Clinical psyc. deals mostly in research. Counseling psychs. deal with diagnosing and treating emotional and behavioral problems. Etc etc. A forensic psychologist helps create personality profiles in criminals, formulate profiles for jurys, or study the problems involved in eyewitness testimony.

No, it's not 100%...Look at Bundy. Look at Btk. Seemingly normal on the outside when dealing with the world. In hindsight, their behavior when analyzed told the story. Unfortunately, we don't know this till later, after they are caught. There are thousands like them walking the street. Human time bombs. OJ was also a very manipulative and charismatic person. If you ask me, he is as warped as Bundy. No conscience. IMO Antisocial Personality Disorder.

[tv]

old soul

cochran used 3 cc in his question or 3 ml.

I don't know how many blood drops were on the glove but by the picture the glove was not Soaked in blood.

Previously i and another poster used a conversion chart to try to get to the drops in 3 cc.

you say 1 cc = 1ml

conversion chart.
1 ml = 19.47 Drops. x 3 = 58.41 drops on the glove using Cochrans suggestion.

What is the measurement of a 'drop'? 3cc/ml is miniscule.

[tv]

Some that wanted the gloves to fit may have ignored the actual size of simpsons hands. This guy could palm,wrap his hands around a football.He had the hand size of a wide receiver. No way those gloves would have fit.Latex or not.
That's not what the lady jurors said. Remember, they were very smart, paid close attention and were highly observant.

[old_soul]

TV ~

The link I provided at the top of the page is medical metric conversions. Obviously, Martin and I have used different charts, but 3cc still equals 3 ml. If I gave my young child '58 drops' from Martin's chart, as opposed to '45 drops' from the medical chart, it could mean the difference between a child feeling better, and an overdose! That is the only time it would make a darn bit of difference....otherwise, 3/4 teaspoon, 3cc of blood is not enough to make it shrink, and it did shrink compared to another pair of XL, so either 3cc was wrong, or.............

As it's been said..did fit him, but shrunk down to between a L and XL (is what Rubin said). Hence the ill fit.

[tv]

TV ~

The link I provided at the top of the page is medical metric conversions. Obviously, Martin and I have used different charts, but 3cc still equals 3 ml. If I gave my young child '58 drops' from Martin's chart, as opposed to '45 drops' from the medical chart, it could mean the difference between a child feeling better, and an overdose! That is the only time it would make a darn bit of difference....otherwise, 3/4 teaspoon, 3cc of blood is not enough to make it shrink, and it did shrink compared to another pair of XL, so either 3cc was wrong, or.............

As it's been said..did fit him, but shrunk down to between a L and XL (is what Rubin said). Hence the ill fit.
I completely agree, old soul. I work with liquid medications and injectables all the time in my job and 3cc equals 3 ml no matter how you dispense it. I have always said that is a tiny amount of blood to spread to so many different places. If you read about the glove in Petrocelli's book the fit of the glove makes perfect sense.

Another thing that martin and I have gone around and around about is that you don't routinely record exactly how much blood you draw. martin seems to think the nurse did something wrong. If no policy or procedure existed to require the recording of the blood then how can he have done anything wrong? I think an elderly, unwell man was intimidated into saying he'd drawn a certain amount. I truthfully don't think he knew exactly what he drew up and I don't think there's any missing blood.

[martin II]

I wrote that. You are free to disagree with it. I am not an expert. I believe that some prison psychothrerapists made themselves look bad by pronouncing some inmate cured of anti social disorders, and then the guys goes out an commits some more crimes. It may be that psychologists are no worse at predicting psychological behavior than economists are at predicting economic behavior, but that isn't very good either.

You stated it as a fact so i wondered if it was from some professional paper.

[martin II]

That's not what the lady jurors said. Remember, they were very smart, paid close attention and were highly observant.
Obviously the glove was not the major issue for those two as they all voted not guilty. The jury is not required to agree on every piece of evidence or testimony. So the opinion of those two means nothing.

[martin II]

TV ~

The link I provided at the top of the page is medical metric conversions. Obviously, Martin and I have used different charts, but 3cc still equals 3 ml. If I gave my young child '58 drops' from Martin's chart, as opposed to '45 drops' from the medical chart, it could mean the difference between a child feeling better, and an overdose! That is the only time it would make a darn bit of difference....otherwise, 3/4 teaspoon, 3cc of blood is not enough to make it shrink, and it did shrink compared to another pair of XL, so either 3cc was wrong, or.............

As it's been said..did fit him, but shrunk down to between a L and XL (is what Rubin said). Hence the ill fit.

Maby your chart is more accurate than the one i use. I would not use a internet chart to dispense medication to a child.

[GreenIce]

************************************************** ****
One of the harshest criticisms I have of both the press and the defense was that the defense nit picked about irrelevant mistakes of the LAPD, and the press took it way too seriously. V Bugliosi said that there will always be careless mistakes in the way the police process evidence, and the OJS murder trial was about average in this respect.
I think Henry Lee’s mistakes were worse than Mazola’s and Fung's combined. One of the mistakes Henry Lee made was concerned hair just after OJS was arrested. Mr. Lee told the police that they (the defense) would provide a bout 2 or 3 hairs from OJS, but wouldn’t tell where the hairs came from on OJS’s body (head, arms, etc). The prosecution found a book written by Mr. Lee in which he wrote that the prosecution should have more than 20 hairs, with should be labeled as coming from certain parts of the body, some from certain parts of the head, various parts of the arms, probably more. The prosecution got the hairs they wanted, but this mistake alone shoots down Mr. Lee’s integrity, or his competence, maybe both. And yet, even a lot of pro prosecution press people (to say nothing of the pro defense people) seemed to think Henry Lee did a great job, and that Fung, and Mazzola were incompetent. This amazes me.
Henry Lee also made mistakes on the foot prints. Some of the foot prints he thought were foot prints in blood were trowel marks in the cement. One of them was a footprint in the cement. Henry Lee became angry after the trial when a reporter questioned him about the foot prints.
The fact of the matter is that where you find much human behavior, you will find careless mistakes. Confusing trowel marks in the cement with foot prints in blood is a serious mistake, not being able to remember whether Fung or Mazzola did something 5 months isn’t serious. The defense also made big deals about other mistakes as well. One of the detectives took a pair of OJS shoes home for a few days. This was against LAPD rules, but the defense was unable to show either that OJS’s rights were violated, or that this influenced the final results of the prosecutions case. I could see giving the detective a verbal rap on the knuckles for this, but not mentioning it in the trial. jThe mistake with the shoes may have been absent mindedness.
Martin and others have repeatedly hammered the prosecution and LAPD for careless mistakes, but .the defense, including Henry Lee and Johnnie Cochran was hardly error free. Mr. Cochran had at least 15 violations of the mutual discovery act. Martin has made numerous misspelled words in his posts; this isn’t a problem for me; but I think Martin is hypocritical for making a big deal out of other people’s careless mistakes.
It is easy to hold a magnifying glass over other peoples work. You can always find some mistakes. But not all mistakes are worth talking about at the trial.
If Henry Lee was correct about the foot prints, that would weaken the prosecutions case, but not by very much. It would indicate the possibility of a second assailant. But the a reasonable person could still convict if they thought there might have been a second assailant. In any case a reasonable person might have thought that the H Lee foot prints were either by a cop, or by one of the people who discovered the bodies. Since Henry Lee no longer wanted to talk about the foot prints after the trial finished, I take that as his way of admitting he was wrong.

Fgump2,

Can I ask you an honest question or put yourself in a semi-neutral position. What if all the evidence in this case, the whole trial played out exactly like it did but you or a loved one was in the defendant's seat? Would advise your defense team to lay off the DA's witnesses? Would you be so forgiving and understanding of errors that simply have no logical explaination? Would you refuse to call Dr. Lee because of what he wrote in a book about the number of hairs that can be taken?

Would you accept that Mazzola just made a mistake when she testified about her initals on the bindles? Would you automatically grant instant credibility to Dennis Fung and the other state's witness because even though they have been trained and thousands of dollars have gone into their training, it is okay if they have a rough day? Your freedom, your life is on the line and you would be totally cool with the DA's case?

Martin and I totally disagree about Fred Goldman. The reason why I do not find Mr. Goldman's behavior to be anything less than truthful and honest is because I believe had it been Ron in the defendant's chair he was convicted, his family would be just as vocal about the points and the problems of the case. He would be screaming at the top of his lungs, there is no evidence of a sweat suit--it is based on one man's recall--which he was never positive. The FBI expert, never said those fibers came from a sweat suit. The hair evidence, without being able to get any DNA from it, you can't identify a person, you can identify perhaps race, but not sex. You can identify if they have colored their hair, but again, that does not prove who's a person is.

While I believe Mr. Goldman would have done every thing he possibly could to get his son's conviction over turned or validate his aquittal, I don't think he would have much luck. IMO, too much has been taken as fact when they are not. Too much has been assumed to be only one explaination, it seems that the media forgot that there are two sides to every piece of evidence and the defense matched the DA's every step of the way.

If you were the defendant, would you view the DA's in the same way? Or would you say that there were over 40 lawyers on their side and they many more millions then you did, did they really put on a bad case?

Dr. Lee's comments about the hairs can't be compared to Fung's "mistakes". IMO, I think Fung took a few for the home team. Is it his fault that the proper lighting wasn't used when looking at the socks?

I believe you made a statement about Dr. Gerdes, how he could not say what did or did not happen in this case. However, Dr. Gary Sims could not say how and when the blood got on the socks. Dr. Sims also testified that he did not understand how no one saw blood on the socks. He was a state's witness.

[GreenIce]

From looking at the glove it does not look like more than 58 drops if that much.Either way i don't see that glove shringking 10 15 % from those blood drops.Rubin had testified that a persevative or something had been sprayed on the leather by the manufacture for some reason.

Martin,

The gloves that Nicole bought were accounted for. They were given to Tom McCollum (sp?). I think he was the Mayor of Brentwood at one time. Do you remember seeing pictures of the gloves next to rulers? Why would they pictures of evidence next to rulers? Seems to me if there was a significant amount of shrinkage, then we would have seen more pictures, perhaps the DA's pouring the same amount of blood on the gloves.

To say that the freezing and the unfreezing of the gloves contributed to this makes no sense---because they known that going into it, IMO. Of course!

Have you read Vanatter's and Lange's book? It really is a gold mine, IMO. Better then Fuhrman's.

[GreenIce]

************************************************** *******
Petrocelli's book quotes two experts on murders of women by former lovers, and both said that it is common for the killer to be tension free after the act. The experts were Park Dietz and Donald Dutton. Also OJS had a reputation for being able to conceal his tension. This is common among people who spend time behind a mike. Some years ago a woman TV news caster committed suicide while on the air. People watched and re-watched her last broad cast, and could see no sign of emotional upset until she pulled gun out, and shot herself in the head. A man who worked as a newscaster told me that most newscasters become good at concealing negative emotions.
OJS's behavior after he got back to LA, and after the acquittal were both incriminating. After he got back to LA he was more interested in the following two items than he was in his kids: getting his golf clubs, and in what Kato told the cops. After the acquittal he showed as much or more anger against Fred Goldman than he did against the cops.

Fgump2,

I have been a similiar situation, suffering the sudden death of a family member. If I gave you a list of the things I did on that day, you would think that either I was the coldest person you have every met in your life or that I was not dealing the reality of the situation. Now, I did not have the press nor was I suspect in the murder, but again, when I look back at that day, I can't believe some of the things I did and said.

In regards to Mr. Simpson's children, the only thing that I can say is that if I did murder my ex and I called my in-laws house and they right away accused me of being the killer, I would not have sent my children to them. Not when I had family members to it, especially with a much older brother and sister. And if I did decide to send them, it wouldn't before I got a chance to talk to them about what they saw or heard that night.

Simpson calling Kato is what it is, he wanted to know if they were ripping his house apart. If Simpson is the killer, he had more problems at Bundy then he did at his own home. Remember when Det. Phillips told him that Nicole was killed and Phillips told him to pull himself together because his kids were at the police station. Simpson asked him what his kids were doing at the police station? If Simpson murdered Nicole, he would have known why his kids were there, IMO, he did not know where Nicole was killed. Again, IMO, if he was the killer, he would not have sent Sydney and Justin to Dana Point. He would have made sure that Arnelle and AC kept the kids close until he got home. He had no way of knowing what either of kids saw or heard that night.

[GreenIce]

I believe what I saw and not what the expert, who wanted to be invited to the prosecution's victory party, said, despite his eyes.

William,

Could the DA's made Simpson try the gloves on a second time, without the latex gloves?

One of the things that I was waiting for someone to post about Mr. Rubin was did he ever examine Simpson's hands up close? As far as I can remember, Mr. Rubin looked at Simpson's hands from witness stand while Simpson was at the defendant's table. Could he really size a man's hands from that distance?

[old_soul]

Fgump2,

I have been a similiar situation, suffering the sudden death of a family member. If I gave you a list of the things I did on that day, you would think that either I was the coldest person you have every met in your life or that I was not dealing the reality of the situation. Now, I did not have the press nor was I suspect in the murder, but again, when I look back at that day, I can't believe some of the things I did and said.

In regards to Mr. Simpson's children, the only thing that I can say is that if I did murder my ex and I called my in-laws house and they right away accused me of being the killer, I would not have sent my children to them. Not when I had family members to it, especially with a much older brother and sister. And if I did decide to send them, it wouldn't before I got a chance to talk to them about what they saw or heard that night.


au contraire

He knew his kids slept like rocks. On the 911 call when he was screaming and ranting and kicked the door in, the kids slept right through it. Those were Nicole's own words. "they sleep like rocks". That time, LE didn't show up quickly, and she called back again.

If that was me, the first words out of my mouth would have been "ARE MY KIDS OK?????????!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not 'why are they at the police station? '

Simpson calling Kato is what it is, he wanted to know if they were ripping his house apart. If Simpson is the killer, he had more problems at Bundy then he did at his own home. Remember when Det. Phillips told him that Nicole was killed and Phillips told him to pull himself together because his kids were at the police station. Simpson asked him what his kids were doing at the police station? If Simpson murdered Nicole, he would have known why his kids were there, IMO, he did not know where Nicole was killed. Again, IMO, if he was the killer, he would not have sent Sydney and Justin to Dana Point. He would have made sure that Arnelle and AC kept the kids close until he got home. He had no way of knowing what either of kids saw or heard that night.

IMO, he knew they were fine.

[tv]

Martin,

The gloves that Nicole bought were accounted for. They were given to Tom McCollum (sp?). I think he was the Mayor of Brentwood at one time. Do you remember seeing pictures of the gloves next to rulers? Why would they pictures of evidence next to rulers? Seems to me if there was a significant amount of shrinkage, then we would have seen more pictures, perhaps the DA's pouring the same amount of blood on the gloves.

To say that the freezing and the unfreezing of the gloves contributed to this makes no sense---because they known that going into it, IMO. Of course!

Have you read Vanatter's and Lange's book? It really is a gold mine, IMO. Better then Fuhrman's.

GreenIce, where did you read this information about the former mayor receiving the gloves? Was it in Vannatter and Lange's book? If not, do you have a link?

[Parker]

Fgump2,

I have been a similiar situation, suffering the sudden death of a family member. If I gave you a list of the things I did on that day, you would think that either I was the coldest person you have every met in your life or that I was not dealing the reality of the situation. Now, I did not have the press nor was I suspect in the murder, but again, when I look back at that day, I can't believe some of the things I did and said.

In regards to Mr. Simpson's children, the only thing that I can say is that if I did murder my ex and I called my in-laws house and they right away accused me of being the killer, I would not have sent my children to them. Not when I had family members to it, especially with a much older brother and sister. And if I did decide to send them, it wouldn't before I got a chance to talk to them about what they saw or heard that night.

Simpson calling Kato is what it is, he wanted to know if they were ripping his house apart. If Simpson is the killer, he had more problems at Bundy then he did at his own home. Remember when Det. Phillips told him that Nicole was killed and Phillips told him to pull himself together because his kids were at the police station. Simpson asked him what his kids were doing at the police station? If Simpson murdered Nicole, he would have known why his kids were there, IMO, he did not know where Nicole was killed. Again, IMO, if he was the killer, he would not have sent Sydney and Justin to Dana Point. He would have made sure that Arnelle and AC kept the kids close until he got home. He had no way of knowing what either of kids saw or heard that night.

Green Ice hi. I really have to disagree with you on that point. IMO you're making OJ out to be a lot smarter than he is. If he was really smart, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in today. I think OJ knew exactly where his ex-wife was and the condition she was in. The last time he saw her. IMO, OJ didn't care what his kids saw or heard. He had one thing only on his mind that night. And it wasn't babysitting.

I'm sorry you've lost a family member in such a useless way. I'm sure you probably did go into remote control. But you're not OJ. There's too much evidence that still points to him.

I read last night that a man in the UK has been freed after 27 years in jail because DNA testing has finally been done on the physical evidence in the rape and murder of a woman and it wasn't him. I know OJ can never be retried but wouldn't it be interesting, if the trial samples etc still exist, to have DNA testing done on them.

And I don't think OJ tried very hard to fit his hands into the gloves.

[martin II]

William,

Could the DA's made Simpson try the gloves on a second time, without the latex gloves?

One of the things that I was waiting for someone to post about Mr. Rubin was did he ever examine Simpson's hands up close? As far as I can remember, Mr. Rubin looked at Simpson's hands from witness stand while Simpson was at the defendant's table. Could he really size a man's hands from that distance?

it was the courts regular procedure that latex gloves be used according to the judge and he so ordered oj to do so.

i think, not sure. but maby Rubin measured ojs hands but he must have made mistakes doing this. Shiperio tried on those glove size the night before the demo and found that they would not fit oj.He had large hands like oj.

Lawyers know not to ask a question if they don't know the answer. Darden did not know the answer he would get from the demo. Clarke sat by and allowed it to happen but with Darden out front.

[martin II]

Green Ice hi. I really have to disagree with you on that point. IMO you're making OJ out to be a lot smarter than he is. If he was really smart, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in today. I think OJ knew exactly where his ex-wife was and the condition she was in. The last time he saw her. IMO, OJ didn't care what his kids saw or heard. He had one thing only on his mind that night. And it wasn't babysitting.

I'm sorry you've lost a family member in such a useless way. I'm sure you probably did go into remote control. But you're not OJ. There's too much evidence that still points to him.

I read last night that a man in the UK has been freed after 27 years in jail because DNA testing has finally been done on the physical evidence in the rape and murder of a woman and it wasn't him. I know OJ can never be retried but wouldn't it be interesting, if the trial samples etc still exist, to have DNA testing done on them.

And I don't think OJ tried very hard to fit his hands into the gloves.

From the video i saw last night oj was pulling on the back of the glove but could not get them over the back of his palm. Exaxctly how hard does one have to try to put a pair of gloves on if they are the correct size.

[martin II]

GreenIce, where did you read this information about the former mayor receiving the gloves? Was it in Vannatter and Lange's book? If not, do you have a link?

I don't know if it was the mayor or not but Nicole did give gloves to a family friend for christmas.

[martin II]

Fgump2,

Can I ask you an honest question or put yourself in a semi-neutral position. What if all the evidence in this case, the whole trial played out exactly like it did but you or a loved one was in the defendant's seat? Would advise your defense team to lay off the DA's witnesses? Would you be so forgiving and understanding of errors that simply have no logical explaination? Would you refuse to call Dr. Lee because of what he wrote in a book about the number of hairs that can be taken?

Would you accept that Mazzola just made a mistake when she testified about her initals on the bindles? Would you automatically grant instant credibility to Dennis Fung and the other state's witness because even though they have been trained and thousands of dollars have gone into their training, it is okay if they have a rough day? Your freedom, your life is on the line and you would be totally cool with the DA's case?

Martin and I totally disagree about Fred Goldman. The reason why I do not find Mr. Goldman's behavior to be anything less than truthful and honest is because I believe had it been Ron in the defendant's chair he was convicted, his family would be just as vocal about the points and the problems of the case. He would be screaming at the top of his lungs, there is no evidence of a sweat suit--it is based on one man's recall--which he was never positive. The FBI expert, never said those fibers came from a sweat suit. The hair evidence, without being able to get any DNA from it, you can't identify a person, you can identify perhaps race, but not sex. You can identify if they have colored their hair, but again, that does not prove who's a person is.

While I believe Mr. Goldman would have done every thing he possibly could to get his son's conviction over turned or validate his aquittal, I don't think he would have much luck. IMO, too much has been taken as fact when they are not. Too much has been assumed to be only one explaination, it seems that the media forgot that there are two sides to every piece of evidence and the defense matched the DA's every step of the way.

If you were the defendant, would you view the DA's in the same way? Or would you say that there were over 40 lawyers on their side and they many more millions then you did, did they really put on a bad case?

Dr. Lee's comments about the hairs can't be compared to Fung's "mistakes". IMO, I think Fung took a few for the home team. Is it his fault that the proper lighting wasn't used when looking at the socks?

I believe you made a statement about Dr. Gerdes, how he could not say what did or did not happen in this case. However, Dr. Gary Sims could not say how and when the blood got on the socks. Dr. Sims also testified that he did not understand how no one saw blood on the socks. He was a state's witness.

I think that family members that hire defense lawyers expect them to go after the prosecution with every skill they have.They are required by law to do so. I think that some that are overly critical of the Dream team would feel much different if it was their family member on trial.

[William Anthony]

I completely agree, old soul. I work with liquid medications and injectables all the time in my job and 3cc equals 3 ml no matter how you dispense it. I have always said that is a tiny amount of blood to spread to so many different places. If you read about the glove in Petrocelli's book the fit of the glove makes perfect sense.

Another thing that martin and I have gone around and around about is that you don't routinely record exactly how much blood you draw. martin seems to think the nurse did something wrong. If no policy or procedure existed to require the recording of the blood then how can he have done anything wrong? I think an elderly, unwell man was intimidated into saying he'd drawn a certain amount. I truthfully don't think he knew exactly what he drew up and I don't think there's any missing blood.

If you begin with the assumption that Simpson did it, then there is no need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did. Peratis was not intimidated into saying he drew approximately 8 ccs of blood but he was coerced into changing it to 6.9 ccs on that staged and rehearsed exparte video facade, where he claimed he could recall after months how much blood he drew from Simpson, imho. If you believe he did not know exactly how much he drew, how can you think no blood is missing?:)

[William Anthony]

Fgump2,

Can I ask you an honest question or put yourself in a semi-neutral position. What if all the evidence in this case, the whole trial played out exactly like it did but you or a loved one was in the defendant's seat? Would advise your defense team to lay off the DA's witnesses? Would you be so forgiving and understanding of errors that simply have no logical explaination? Would you refuse to call Dr. Lee because of what he wrote in a book about the number of hairs that can be taken?

Would you accept that Mazzola just made a mistake when she testified about her initals on the bindles? Would you automatically grant instant credibility to Dennis Fung and the other state's witness because even though they have been trained and thousands of dollars have gone into their training, it is okay if they have a rough day? Your freedom, your life is on the line and you would be totally cool with the DA's case?

Martin and I totally disagree about Fred Goldman. The reason why I do not find Mr. Goldman's behavior to be anything less than truthful and honest is because I believe had it been Ron in the defendant's chair he was convicted, his family would be just as vocal about the points and the problems of the case. He would be screaming at the top of his lungs, there is no evidence of a sweat suit--it is based on one man's recall--which he was never positive. The FBI expert, never said those fibers came from a sweat suit. The hair evidence, without being able to get any DNA from it, you can't identify a person, you can identify perhaps race, but not sex. You can identify if they have colored their hair, but again, that does not prove who's a person is.

While I believe Mr. Goldman would have done every thing he possibly could to get his son's conviction over turned or validate his aquittal, I don't think he would have much luck. IMO, too much has been taken as fact when they are not. Too much has been assumed to be only one explaination, it seems that the media forgot that there are two sides to every piece of evidence and the defense matched the DA's every step of the way.

If you were the defendant, would you view the DA's in the same way? Or would you say that there were over 40 lawyers on their side and they many more millions then you did, did they really put on a bad case?

Dr. Lee's comments about the hairs can't be compared to Fung's "mistakes". IMO, I think Fung took a few for the home team. Is it his fault that the proper lighting wasn't used when looking at the socks?

I believe you made a statement about Dr. Gerdes, how he could not say what did or did not happen in this case. However, Dr. Gary Sims could not say how and when the blood got on the socks. Dr. Sims also testified that he did not understand how no one saw blood on the socks. He was a state's witness.

An excellent post.

[William Anthony]

William,

Could the DA's made Simpson try the gloves on a second time, without the latex gloves?

One of the things that I was waiting for someone to post about Mr. Rubin was did he ever examine Simpson's hands up close? As far as I can remember, Mr. Rubin looked at Simpson's hands from witness stand while Simpson was at the defendant's table. Could he really size a man's hands from that distance?

No, the latex was a safety precaution. IIRC, Darden requested it and Ito said no.

He did examine Simpson's hands and measured the gloves and, IIRC, he made the statement that the gloves should have fit, which to me meant they didn't and he had no explanation why they didn't based on his measurements but then the bogus shrinkage theory.

[GreenIce]

IMO, he knew they were fine.

Old Soul,

Had OJ Simpson responded with your "Are my kids okay?!", this statement, IMO, would point to his guilt. Why? Because by asking if his kids were okay, then he would be acknowledging that he knew where Nicole was killed and the kids were, in fact, just by being in the condo were in a very dangerous situation. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that either of the kids woke up and went down stairs, they would have been murdered as well. I am convinced the door to the condo was left open and that at least one person was inside to watch out for the kids.

No, he did not know that his kids were fine. What he did know is that they needed to be taken some place where the media would not have as much access to them.

Yes, the kids never woke up during the 1993 incident, however, it has been acknowledge that Sydney did in fact hear her mother crying and fighting with a friend. Also, Sydney had a friend staying the night, Simpson knew this, how did he know she would have slept through it? BTW, ever wonder why Rachel's parents were never called to the stand to testify?

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, where did you read this information about the former mayor receiving the gloves? Was it in Vannatter and Lange's book? If not, do you have a link?

TV,

It was in American Tragedy. From what I remember, he gave one pair to the defense and the other to the DA's. He really did not want to get involved but was very upset later on because he came to believe that OJ did kill Nicole. He was also the person who spearheaded Simpson's removal from the country club he belonged to.

If you want to get really, really angry, read Lange and Vanatter's book. IMO, on certain issues, it blows the lid off on how the state's agencies deal with one another. Very upsetting, IMO.

[GreenIce]

Green Ice hi. I really have to disagree with you on that point. IMO you're making OJ out to be a lot smarter than he is. If he was really smart, he wouldn't be in the mess he's in today. I think OJ knew exactly where his ex-wife was and the condition she was in. The last time he saw her. IMO, OJ didn't care what his kids saw or heard. He had one thing only on his mind that night. And it wasn't babysitting.

I'm sorry you've lost a family member in such a useless way. I'm sure you probably did go into remote control. But you're not OJ. There's too much evidence that still points to him.

I read last night that a man in the UK has been freed after 27 years in jail because DNA testing has finally been done on the physical evidence in the rape and murder of a woman and it wasn't him. I know OJ can never be retried but wouldn't it be interesting, if the trial samples etc still exist, to have DNA testing done on them.

And I don't think OJ tried very hard to fit his hands into the gloves.

Parker,

Thank you for your kind words.

During the trial, the media and everyone jumped on the guilt wagon over and over again on certain words and actions that after a while, it seem like just a bad joke. When Phillips told Simpson his wife was killed, the guilt wagon response was that because he didn't ask which wife it was, he was guilty, that proves it. While I find that a bit of a reach, because when it comes to having ex's and having to play the name game on which ex was murdered, I can see where it raises a question. However, Mr. Simpson asking why his children are at the police station points in another direction. You may not believe it, but it appears to me that one response can point to guilt and the the other one point to innocence.

I do agree with you that who ever the killers were, if they knew children were upstairs asleep, they did not care and I also believe had either child come down stairs, their throats would have been slit as well.

I understand that on the surface, a lot of evidence points to him, but that is the point, "on the surface". To be fair you have to look at both sides or stories of the evidence.

If Mr. Simpson is the killer then he is a genuis because he must have been banking on getting Fung and Mozzola as his CSI team. He also must have ruled out every other evidence truck with a working AC unit and the broken AC unit truck was scheduled to be used for the crimes at Bundy.

He had to be brilliant to know that for the first time Vanatter's career, he was going to bring a blood vial to his estate and the person who he gave it to, was clues to where it was. He must have been a genius knowing that Ron Phillips would call MF in on the case, even though MF was not on call that night.


If Mr. Simpson is the killer, then yes, I would have to say he was brilliant.

[GreenIce]

William and Martin,

In Shapiro's book, (I think), after court let out that day, Simpson did try on the gloves again with out the latex and the results were the same. I believe Sherry Lewis, the DA said it was okay.

[Parker]

Parker,

Thank you for your kind words.

During the trial, the media and everyone jumped on the guilt wagon over and over again on certain words and actions that after a while, it seem like just a bad joke. When Phillips told Simpson his wife was killed, the guilt wagon response was that because he didn't ask which wife it was, he was guilty, that proves it. While I find that a bit of a reach, because when it comes to having ex's and having to play the name game on which ex was murdered, I can see where it raises a question. However, Mr. Simpson asking why his children are at the police station points in another direction. You may not believe it, but it appears to me that one response can point to guilt and the the other one point to innocence.

I do agree with you that who ever the killers were, if they knew children were upstairs asleep, they did not care and I also believe had either child come down stairs, their throats would have been slit as well.

I understand that on the surface, a lot of evidence points to him, but that is the point, "on the surface". To be fair you have to look at both sides or stories of the evidence.

If Mr. Simpson is the killer then he is a genuis because he must have been banking on getting Fung and Mozzola as his CSI team. He also must have ruled out every other evidence truck with a working AC unit and the broken AC unit truck was scheduled to be used for the crimes at Bundy.

He had to be brilliant to know that for the first time Vanatter's career, he was going to bring a blood vial to his estate and the person who he gave it to, was clues to where it was. He must have been a genius knowing that Ron Phillips would call MF in on the case, even though MF was not on call that night.

If Mr. Simpson is the killer, then yes, I would have to say he was brilliant.

Again, I think you're giving OJ way too much credit. He didn't know about any of these people. He could have tripped over them at a movie signing gig and he wouldn't have known them. Except, maybe to sue them for wrongful trespass.;)

[weezer]

Martin,

The gloves that Nicole bought were accounted for. They were given to Tom McCollum (sp?). I think he was the Mayor of Brentwood at one time. Do you remember seeing pictures of the gloves next to rulers? Why would they pictures of evidence next to rulers? Seems to me if there was a significant amount of shrinkage, then we would have seen more pictures, perhaps the DA's pouring the same amount of blood on the gloves.

To say that the freezing and the unfreezing of the gloves contributed to this makes no sense---because they known that going into it, IMO. Of course!

Have you read Vanatter's and Lange's book? It really is a gold mine, IMO. Better then Fuhrman's.

:no::no::no: one pair of the gloves were accounted for -- orenthal was wearing the other pair in the broadcast videos.

:no::no::no: I'm looking at evidence photos and it looks like the vast majority are in pictured -- guess what? -- next to a ruler.

[old_soul]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

[martin II]

Fgump2,

I have been a similiar situation, suffering the sudden death of a family member. If I gave you a list of the things I did on that day, you would think that either I was the coldest person you have every met in your life or that I was not dealing the reality of the situation. Now, I did not have the press nor was I suspect in the murder, but again, when I look back at that day, I can't believe some of the things I did and said.

In regards to Mr. Simpson's children, the only thing that I can say is that if I did murder my ex and I called my in-laws house and they right away accused me of being the killer, I would not have sent my children to them. Not when I had family members to it, especially with a much older brother and sister. And if I did decide to send them, it wouldn't before I got a chance to talk to them about what they saw or heard that night.

Simpson calling Kato is what it is, he wanted to know if they were ripping his house apart. If Simpson is the killer, he had more problems at Bundy then he did at his own home. Remember when Det. Phillips told him that Nicole was killed and Phillips told him to pull himself together because his kids were at the police station. Simpson asked him what his kids were doing at the police station? If Simpson murdered Nicole, he would have known why his kids were there, IMO, he did not know where Nicole was killed. Again, IMO, if he was the killer, he would not have sent Sydney and Justin to Dana Point. He would have made sure that Arnelle and AC kept the kids close until he got home. He had no way of knowing what either of kids saw or heard that night.

Allen Park told oj 'WE HAVE TO GO" which caused oj to just hop in the limo and leave. So he had no option to get the alarm on but by calling Kato and giving the security mumbers.

[William Anthony]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

IIRC, there had been another murder in "Brentwood" a short time before. You assume that the killer was a Black man dressed in a black outfit but the prosecution offered no proof of that, other than a theory. The unidentified Caucasian hair tells me it could have been a Caucasian. Who can say without a doubt which of us is incapable of murder?

[martin II]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

Based on Wagners theory of two mob persons doing the killing and based on history of why they kill it was not odd they they were killed as they were.I think it takes a prosefessional to know that one must use the stab testing method to make sure the victim is dead as was used on ron.

The da stated that Nicole was attacked first and Ron when he arrived. One issue that has not been resolved is how did the dog get out the front gate to start barking in the street. Heidstra testified that he heard a metal gate slam shut right after the hey hey hey voice.

Why would a killer with knife in hand kill one person and leave the other alive. everyone has to be killed.

[martin II]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

RK was a mob type guy.It was RK that hired that guy to steal PB bronco and shadow Nicole.

[old_soul]

IIRC, there had been another murder in "Brentwood" a short time before. You assume that the killer was a Black man dressed in a black outfit but the prosecution offered no proof of that, other than a theory. The unidentified Caucasian hair tells me it could have been a Caucasian. Who can say without a doubt which of us is incapable of murder?

dark ski cap found at bundy ~ hairs consistent with OJ on cap at Bundy

dark gloves worn by killer

dark Bruno Magli shoes size 12/46

hairs consistent with hairs from OJ on Ron Goldman

9:36 PM Simpson wearing dark sweat suit as seen by Kato Kalin

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Dna.htm

What caucasian hairs are you referring to?

[martin II]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

With several million dollars in legal fees from both trials and the lost of his house, how long did you expect oj to be able to continue to finance investigators looking for the killer. The la DA office made it clear that they were not interested in anything being presented to them about another killer.
Many family members make that kind of promise up until reality sets in.

[martin II]

dark ski cap found at bundy ~ hairs consistent with OJ on cap at Bundy

dark gloves worn by killer

dark Bruno Magli shoes size 12/46

hairs consistent with hairs from OJ on Ron Goldman

9:36 PM Simpson wearing dark sweat suit as seen by Kato Kalin

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Dna.htm

What caucasian hairs are you referring to?


Consistant means what, proof?
No BM shoes size 12/46 were ever presented in court to match the shoe prints.
Kato said the sweats he saw oj wearing had a white ziopper down the front. The video person said there was no white zipper on the garment oj used in the video.
The gloves did not fit oj. There is no proof that Nicole gave oj the gloves she purchased.

[old_soul]

RK was a mob type guy.It was RK that hired that guy to steal PB bronco and shadow Nicole.

RK was a nothing. Mob type guy? No, Martin. I live 45 minutes from NYC, all my life. I've known people that I'd rather not talk about. Black men are not in the Mob, first of all. They don't wear ski caps and slither in people's alleyways. They use guns, silencers, and save the true violence for someone who has done something personal to the family but, most probably she would have just disappeared. Poof. Gone. They would find your comment very amusing.

I have posted a link for you re the gloves. Those gloves OJ 'couldn't get on' ~ the XL with blood....how come later on, a new pair fit 'JUST RIGHT?'
http://law.jrank.org/pages/3663/O-J-Simpson-Trials-1995-1996-97-Gloves-Shoe-Prints.html

[old_soul]

With several million dollars in legae fees from both trials and the lost of his house, how long did you expect oj to be able to continue to finance investigators looking for the killer. The la DA office made it clear that they were not interested in anything being presented to them about another killer.
Many family members make that kind of promise up until reality sets in.

Martin, you keep giving me excuses. He did Nothing to find the 'killers'. He played golf and hung out while hiding money he owed to Nicole's estate and The Goldmans.

No wonder his daughter beat the crap out of him a few years ago....His kids have as much respect for him as the rest of us who believe he did it.

And They know him.

[martin II]

RK was a nothing. Mob type guy? No, Martin. I live 45 minutes from NYC, all my life. I've known people that I'd rather not talk about. Black men are not in the Mob, first of all. They don't wear ski caps and slither in people's alleyways. They use guns, silencers, and save the true violence for someone who has done something personal to the family but, most probably she would have just disappeared. Poof. Gone. They would find your comment very amusing.

I have posted a link for you re the gloves. Those gloves OJ 'couldn't get on' ~ the XL with blood....how come later on, a new pair fit 'JUST RIGHT?'
http://law.jrank.org/pages/3663/O-J-Simpson-Trials-1995-1996-97-Gloves-Shoe-Prints.html

I did not say RK was a made member and he was not black. But there are black operatives and Hispanics that do dirty work for them See the J Gotti case. There are so many cases where mob killers have taken people and chopped them up and put the remains in meat grinders.Where i am very recently two were convicted on putting a man in a 55 gallon drum and filed it with acid. The FbI is currently digging in the ground on LI looking for several people that were buried alive in graves. So there is no one way that they use to kill.

[old_soul]

I did not say RK was a made member and he was not black. But there are black operatives and Hispanics that do dirty work for them See the J Gotti case. There are so many cases where mob killers have taken people and chopped them up and put the remains in meat grinders.Where i am very recently two were convicted on putting a man in a 55 gallon drum and filed it with acid. The FbI is currently digging in the ground on LI looking for several people that were buried alive in graves. So there is no one way that they use to kill.

At the time of this murder, true 'Mafia' would not have touched this with a 10ft pole. Gotti and Gravano were doing things that earlier Bosses would not have allowed. Drugs, etc. TALKING too much, Using outside people, if at all.

Anyway, it was too messy for that, and it made no statement to anyone, except they were dead with a lot of evidence left by a novice. The order would have been to make her disappear. Rk had no dog in that fight. They were over and done. This was a passion killing. 30 or so stab wounds is personal, full of rage.

[martin II]

At the time of this murder, true 'Mafia' would not have touched this with a 10ft pole. Gotti and Gravano were doing things that earlier Bosses would not have allowed. Drugs, etc. TALKING too much, Using outside people, if at all.

Anyway, it was too messy for that, and it made no statement to anyone, except they were dead with a lot of evidence left by a novice. The order would have been to make her disappear. Rk had no dog in that fight. They were over and done. This was a passion killing. 30 or so stab wounds is personal, full of rage.

With a 4 inch knief multiple cuts were necessary especially since Ron put up a big fight. What does a killer do if the victim refuses to give up?

Most mafia killings are about someone screwing around with their business or not turning the right money to the Don. Which is why they mostly kill themselves.

Gotti was not the first drug dealing mob guys.They have been bringing Heron
into this country for many years.Long before Gotti. It made a statement to all. you screw around with our business this is what happens.
Wagners theory was that Nicole was screwing around with their business when she insisted that oj stop being involved in their vegas betting business.
imo

[weezer]

With several million dollars in legal fees from both trials and the lost of his house, how long did you expect oj to be able to continue to finance investigators looking for the killer. The la DA office made it clear that they were not interested in anything being presented to them about another killer.
Many family members make that kind of promise up until reality sets in.

psst --

PIs offer Simpson free sleuthing

But will he give them the cold shoulder?
May 29, 1996
Web posted at: 8:15 a.m. EDT

From San Francisco Bureau Chief Greg Lefevre

SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- O.J. Simpson has remarked that untapped leads in San Francisco may vindicate him -- but that he can't check them out, because he's broke. In response, half a dozen of the city's most respected private eyes have offered their services for free.

Hal Lipset, a famous detective in a city known for its private investigators, took umbrage that his city could be blamed for harboring Simpson's alleged perpetrator.


"We represent a lot of years of experience in the investigative field. But we're doing it primarily because San Francisco was the base," he said.

Lipset says his offer of help is not to be considered critical of the San Francisco Police Department. Simpson has said he no longer trusts Los Angeles police. Private investigations may be more to his liking.

In all, the heads of six separate private investigation companies have joined in the offer. Phil Stuto is one.

"It does besmirch the city to think these leads aren't being followed. And we can certainly afford the time with six of us in six different companies to follow those leads and check them out thoroughly," he said.

But the Simpson team seems to be backing away from Simpson's May 20 statement. On CNN's "Burden of Proof" Tuesday, Simpson investigator Patrick McKenna said, "They're probably cold leads now, so they'll be ice-fishing in San Francisco for these."

McKenna also hinted that Nicole Brown Simpson's friend Faye Resnick and Resnick's drug problem could be linked to Ms. Simpson's death. (179K AIFF or WAV sound)

"Faye Resnick and her associates ... weren't exhaustively followed. We were concerned with defending Mr. Simpson at the time, not doing law enforcement's job of apprehending people and following up these leads," McKenna said.

Are the Simpson leads real or imagined? San Francisco investigator Vance Morris wonders, "It can also be a red herring. Does he have the leads or doesn't he? So we would like for him to respond in that respect."

And will Simpson eventually take Lipset and his colleagues up on the offer? "If he needs the help it's there. And if he doesn't choose to use it, then you can put your own spin on it," Lipset said.

Attorney John Burris, who specializes in defense and police cases, believes Simpson may have backed himself into a corner. Simpson, he says, raised the ante and the investigators are calling his bluff -- something that must frustrate the former football hero's lawyers. (136K AIFF or WAV sound)

"His lawyers are frustrated by his continuing desire to talk, making references to San Francisco. Every time he speaks like this it gives more fuel to the plaintiffs' lawyers to come back and hold him accountable," Burris said.

"As they say, we counsel clients, loose lips sink ships, less is best ... whenever you make these kinds of statements all you really do is create interest. If you can't deliver on the commitments or the statements that you made, it goes to your credibility."

Simpson defense attorney Professor Gerald Uelmen spoke on CNN's "Talk Back Live" Tuesday. "I think he (Simpson) has to be careful in accepting these kinds of offers because they might not be motivated to help him find the real killers. They may want to promote themselves, sell their stories to the media. There are a lot of factors that I think need to be taken into account."

The investigators say they'll make whatever they find available for public scrutiny -- that is, if Simpson approves their search."

[martin II]

At the time of this murder, true 'Mafia' would not have touched this with a 10ft pole. Gotti and Gravano were doing things that earlier Bosses would not have allowed. Drugs, etc. TALKING too much, Using outside people, if at all.

Anyway, it was too messy for that, and it made no statement to anyone, except they were dead with a lot of evidence left by a novice. The order would have been to make her disappear. Rk had no dog in that fight. They were over and done. This was a passion killing. 30 or so stab wounds is personal, full of rage.

Mofia types were killing people before oj during the trial and now.There is little they will not touch.

[martin II]

psst --

PIs offer Simpson free sleuthing

But will he give them the cold shoulder?
May 29, 1996
Web posted at: 8:15 a.m. EDT

From San Francisco Bureau Chief Greg Lefevre

SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- O.J. Simpson has remarked that untapped leads in San Francisco may vindicate him -- but that he can't check them out, because he's broke. In response, half a dozen of the city's most respected private eyes have offered their services for free.

Hal Lipset, a famous detective in a city known for its private investigators, took umbrage that his city could be blamed for harboring Simpson's alleged perpetrator.


"We represent a lot of years of experience in the investigative field. But we're doing it primarily because San Francisco was the base," he said.

Lipset says his offer of help is not to be considered critical of the San Francisco Police Department. Simpson has said he no longer trusts Los Angeles police. Private investigations may be more to his liking.

In all, the heads of six separate private investigation companies have joined in the offer. Phil Stuto is one.

"It does besmirch the city to think these leads aren't being followed. And we can certainly afford the time with six of us in six different companies to follow those leads and check them out thoroughly," he said.

But the Simpson team seems to be backing away from Simpson's May 20 statement. On CNN's "Burden of Proof" Tuesday, Simpson investigator Patrick McKenna said, "They're probably cold leads now, so they'll be ice-fishing in San Francisco for these."

McKenna also hinted that Nicole Brown Simpson's friend Faye Resnick and Resnick's drug problem could be linked to Ms. Simpson's death. (179K AIFF or WAV sound)

"Faye Resnick and her associates ... weren't exhaustively followed. We were concerned with defending Mr. Simpson at the time, not doing law enforcement's job of apprehending people and following up these leads," McKenna said.

Are the Simpson leads real or imagined? San Francisco investigator Vance Morris wonders, "It can also be a red herring. Does he have the leads or doesn't he? So we would like for him to respond in that respect."

And will Simpson eventually take Lipset and his colleagues up on the offer? "If he needs the help it's there. And if he doesn't choose to use it, then you can put your own spin on it," Lipset said.

Attorney John Burris, who specializes in defense and police cases, believes Simpson may have backed himself into a corner. Simpson, he says, raised the ante and the investigators are calling his bluff -- something that must frustrate the former football hero's lawyers. (136K AIFF or WAV sound)

"His lawyers are frustrated by his continuing desire to talk, making references to San Francisco. Every time he speaks like this it gives more fuel to the plaintiffs' lawyers to come back and hold him accountable," Burris said.

"As they say, we counsel clients, loose lips sink ships, less is best ... whenever you make these kinds of statements all you really do is create interest. If you can't deliver on the commitments or the statements that you made, it goes to your credibility."

Simpson defense attorney Professor Gerald Uelmen spoke on CNN's "Talk Back Live" Tuesday. "I think he (Simpson) has to be careful in accepting these kinds of offers because they might not be motivated to help him find the real killers. They may want to promote themselves, sell their stories to the media. There are a lot of factors that I think need to be taken into account."

The investigators say they'll make whatever they find available for public scrutiny -- that is, if Simpson approves their search."


If a private investigator wanted to look for a killer he did not need oj approval.
many wrote books without his approval.

[weezer]

If a private investigator wanted to look for a killer he did not need oj approval.
many wrote books without his approval.

I believe the point was they needed his input and access to information that he could give. Now be honest here -- haven't you wondered just a little why orenthal never, ever took them up on the offer?

[William Anthony]

dark ski cap found at bundy ~ hairs consistent with OJ on cap at Bundy

dark gloves worn by killer

dark Bruno Magli shoes size 12/46

hairs consistent with hairs from OJ on Ron Goldman

9:36 PM Simpson wearing dark sweat suit as seen by Kato Kalin

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/Simpson/Dna.htm

What caucasian hairs are you referring to?

The one that was found and unidentified.

[martin II]

psst --

PIs offer Simpson free sleuthing

But will he give them the cold shoulder?
May 29, 1996
Web posted at: 8:15 a.m. EDT

From San Francisco Bureau Chief Greg Lefevre

SAN FRANCISCO (CNN) -- O.J. Simpson has remarked that untapped leads in San Francisco may vindicate him -- but that he can't check them out, because he's broke. In response, half a dozen of the city's most respected private eyes have offered their services for free.

Hal Lipset, a famous detective in a city known for its private investigators, took umbrage that his city could be blamed for harboring Simpson's alleged perpetrator.


"We represent a lot of years of experience in the investigative field. But we're doing it primarily because San Francisco was the base," he said.

Lipset says his offer of help is not to be considered critical of the San Francisco Police Department. Simpson has said he no longer trusts Los Angeles police. Private investigations may be more to his liking.

In all, the heads of six separate private investigation companies have joined in the offer. Phil Stuto is one.

"It does besmirch the city to think these leads aren't being followed. And we can certainly afford the time with six of us in six different companies to follow those leads and check them out thoroughly," he said.

But the Simpson team seems to be backing away from Simpson's May 20 statement. On CNN's "Burden of Proof" Tuesday, Simpson investigator Patrick McKenna said, "They're probably cold leads now, so they'll be ice-fishing in San Francisco for these."

McKenna also hinted that Nicole Brown Simpson's friend Faye Resnick and Resnick's drug problem could be linked to Ms. Simpson's death. (179K AIFF or WAV sound)

"Faye Resnick and her associates ... weren't exhaustively followed. We were concerned with defending Mr. Simpson at the time, not doing law enforcement's job of apprehending people and following up these leads," McKenna said.

Are the Simpson leads real or imagined? San Francisco investigator Vance Morris wonders, "It can also be a red herring. Does he have the leads or doesn't he? So we would like for him to respond in that respect."

And will Simpson eventually take Lipset and his colleagues up on the offer? "If he needs the help it's there. And if he doesn't choose to use it, then you can put your own spin on it," Lipset said.

Attorney John Burris, who specializes in defense and police cases, believes Simpson may have backed himself into a corner. Simpson, he says, raised the ante and the investigators are calling his bluff -- something that must frustrate the former football hero's lawyers. (136K AIFF or WAV sound)

"His lawyers are frustrated by his continuing desire to talk, making references to San Francisco. Every time he speaks like this it gives more fuel to the plaintiffs' lawyers to come back and hold him accountable," Burris said.

"As they say, we counsel clients, loose lips sink ships, less is best ... whenever you make these kinds of statements all you really do is create interest. If you can't deliver on the commitments or the statements that you made, it goes to your credibility."

Simpson defense attorney Professor Gerald Uelmen spoke on CNN's "Talk Back Live" Tuesday. "I think he (Simpson) has to be careful in accepting these kinds of offers because they might not be motivated to help him find the real killers. They may want to promote themselves, sell their stories to the media. There are a lot of factors that I think need to be taken into account."

The investigators say they'll make whatever they find available for public scrutiny -- that is, if Simpson approves their search."

One thing i agree with is that Faye was at Nicoles house freebasing cocain.
Her ex had cut her off from his cash. Then a few days before Nicole was killed she ran to the protection of a drug rehab place. She and the people that had been comming to Nicoles to see her were never followed up or investigated.imo

[martin II]

I believe the point was they needed his input and access to information that he could give. Now be honest here -- haven't you wondered just a little why orenthal never, ever took them up on the offer?

Mr Dear and Wagner did very good investigations of the murders and neither required ojs approval. If i did not know the investigator no i would not have done it.Many people voluntee to do stuff but with motives unknown to the person. ojs approval was not required for a investigation by a PI.

[tv]

Old Soul,

Had OJ Simpson responded with your "Are my kids okay?!", this statement, IMO, would point to his guilt. Why? Because by asking if his kids were okay, then he would be acknowledging that he knew where Nicole was killed and the kids were, in fact, just by being in the condo were in a very dangerous situation. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that either of the kids woke up and went down stairs, they would have been murdered as well. I am convinced the door to the condo was left open and that at least one person was inside to watch out for the kids.

No, he did not know that his kids were fine. What he did know is that they needed to be taken some place where the media would not have as much access to them.

Yes, the kids never woke up during the 1993 incident, however, it has been acknowledge that Sydney did in fact hear her mother crying and fighting with a friend. Also, Sydney had a friend staying the night, Simpson knew this, how did he know she would have slept through it? BTW, ever wonder why Rachel's parents were never called to the stand to testify?
GreenIce, I don't get that at all. Wouldn't a father think that his young children would be with their mother? The fact that he didn't ask is what points to his guilt. This is reaching a little too far to explain away his strange reaction to hearing his ex-wife was dead.

[tv]

Mr Dear and Wagner did very good investigations of the murders and neither required ojs approval. If i did not know the investigator no i would not have done it.Many people voluntee to do stuff but with motives unknown to the person. ojs approval was not required for a investigation by a PI.If a case could be investigated without talking to key players then LE wouldn't have to interact with anyone to do their investigations. Why wouldn't OJ Simpson have taken advantage of offers of free service from investigators?

[William Anthony]

At the time of this murder, true 'Mafia' would not have touched this with a 10ft pole. Gotti and Gravano were doing things that earlier Bosses would not have allowed. Drugs, etc. TALKING too much, Using outside people, if at all.

Anyway, it was too messy for that, and it made no statement to anyone, except they were dead with a lot of evidence left by a novice. The order would have been to make her disappear. Rk had no dog in that fight. They were over and done. This was a passion killing. 30 or so stab wounds is personal, full of rage.

http://books.google.com/books?id=6AxEiRiWMeoC&pg=PA243&lpg=PA243&dq=history+of+mafia%27s+involvement+in+illegal+dru gs&source=bl&ots=DQKP3vLEh9&sig=A9fo-erIRktacOgI1StZMA-wBMI&hl=en&ei=THnCSbaeJsixtwfC_-3hCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

[martin II]

If a case could be investigated without talking to key players then LE wouldn't have to interact with anyone to do their investigations. Why wouldn't OJ Simpson have taken advantage of offers of free service from investigators?

All a good investigator would have to do is start with trial transcrips, maby interview witnesses to collect names. maby talk to some DAS or some defense
lawyers and to some of his own connections.Talk to local criminals .Thats how most of them work anyway.oj said nicoles death lives someplace in the life of Fay.Start there and see what happens.
Dear did his investigation without talking to oj nicole or his son and look at all the private info he gathered about all of them and their friends. There are legitimate investigators and then there are people looking for free info to write a book.
God knows there were a lot of people that wrote unfactual books on this case.

[tv]

All a good investigator would have to do is start with trial transcrips, maby interview witnesses to collect names. maby talk to some DAS or some defense
lawyers and to some of his own connections.Talk to local criminals .Thats how most of them work anyway.oj said nicoles death lives someplace in the life of Fay.Start there and see what happens.
Dear did his investigation without talking to oj nicole or his son and look at all the private info he gathered about all of them and their friends. There are legitimate investigators and then there are people looking for free info to write a book.
God knows there were a lot of people that wrote unfactual books on this case.What would be the motivation for a PI to do all this on his own dime if OJ Simpson can't even be bothered? Dear did his own investigation without talking to many key people and look at the wild theory he came up with.

[martin II]

GreenIce, I don't get that at all. Wouldn't a father think that his young children would be with their mother? The fact that he didn't ask is what points to his guilt. This is reaching a little too far to explain away his strange reaction to hearing his ex-wife was dead.

Oj did not have to think where his children were, Phillips told him they were at the police station.
When Oj was informed that his kids were at the police station he contacted AC and had him and Arnell collect them and take them to the Browns that was before he had arrived back to LA. Obviously he knew they would be ok there.AC had a very good relationship with the kids and oj could have asked him to take them to his house but he opted for the browns.

I think when some rip apart ojs every word with Phillips it is grand nitpicking to find something that is not there. Phillips must have felt oj was very upset as he told him "OJ GET A HOLD ON YOURSELF" Oj volunteered 'I AM ON MY WAY BACK NOW" OR "i WILL BE ON THE NEXT FLIGHT BACK" They did not have to tell him to come back immediately and he did not use the Hertz event as a excuse to stay in Chicago.
When Vanhatter interviewed him he answered every question.The prosecution saw nothing in the interview that could be helpful to them as they did not use it in the trial.But some say he just lied his eyeballs out.Nonsense.imo

It is odd that some that were not involved KNOW exactly what his every response/word should have been according to them. imo

[martin II]

Martin, you keep giving me excuses. He did Nothing to find the 'killers'. He played golf and hung out while hiding money he owed to Nicole's estate and The Goldmans.

No wonder his daughter beat the crap out of him a few years ago....His kids have as much respect for him as the rest of us who believe he did it.

And They know him.

I don't know of any event that Sydney 'Beat the crap" out of oj.Maby you can inform me of when this was.

Oj has raised Nicoles kids for 13 years and they seem to be well adjusted and turning into adulthood as they complete their education and living with their father in Florida. Some had predicted that they would turn on and even said they were not happy. Not so so far.

[tv]

Oj did not have to think where his children were, Phillips told him they were at the police station.
When Oj was informed that his kids were at the police station he contacted AC and had him and Arnell collect them and take them to the Browns that was before he had arrived back to LA. Obviously he knew they would be ok there.AC had a very good relationship with the kids and oj could have asked him to take them to his house but he opted for the browns.

I think when some rip apart ojs every word with Phillips it is grand nitpicking to find something that is not there. Phillips must have felt oj was very upset as he told him "OJ GET A HOLD ON YOURSELF" Oj volunteered 'I AM ON MY WAY BACK NOW" OR "i WILL BE ON THE NEXT FLIGHT BACK" They did not have to tell him to come back immediately and he did not use the Hertz event as a excuse to stay in Chicago.
When Vanhatter interviewed him he answered every question.The prosecution saw nothing in the interview that could be helpful to them as they did not use it in the trial.But some say he just lied his eyeballs out.Nonsense.imo

It is odd that some that were not involved KNOW exactly what his every response/word should have been according to them. imo

martin, while I find it interesting to hear how Simpson reacted, it carries only a little weight with me. There are a lot more things that point to his certain guilt. I was taking issue with GI saying that because he didn't ask about the children it points to him being not guilty. That's just silly.

[fgump2]

If a private investigator wanted to look for a killer he did not need oj approval.
many wrote books without his approval.
************************************************** ******
The PI was referring to the fact that OJS said he had some leads in SF. I don't think it would be reasonable to expect the PI to wander around in SF looking for clues (Bruno M foot prints?) in S.F. He wanted the info that OJS said he had.
As to the point of how I would feel if the dream team was defending me or someone close to me? Differently I am sure. I would also feel differently about the AIG bonuses if some of that landed in my pocket. We are all selfish. Most non lawyers have trouble understanding the ethics of lawyers. I don't mean that (entirely) in a disparaging manner, I just mean the law is a complicated field, not just the law on the books, but the professional choices that lawyers make. There are complicated rules governing lawyer conduct.
What constitutes and unethical argument to sway the judgment of a jury? I don't know. I don't know if anyone does
I looked up SI of June 27, 1994 (I know I am irrational to be this motivated). I thought I'd find evidence that some of OJS former team mates thought he was on uppers and downers. There were no such statements, and if there had been, it wouldn't have been infallible. It did say, on page 20, that OJS robbed a liquor store at age 14, and Willie Mays (then an active baseball star) visited him to help straighten him out. So he was in some juvenile trouble.

[William Anthony]

************************************************** ******
The PI was referring to the fact that OJS said he had some leads in SF. I don't think it would be reasonable to expect the PI to wander around in SF looking for clues (Bruno M foot prints?) in S.F. He wanted the info that OJS said he had.
As to the point of how I would feel if the dream team was defending me or someone close to me? Differently I am sure. I would also feel differently about the AIG bonuses if some of that landed in my pocket. We are all selfish. Most non lawyers have trouble understanding the ethics of lawyers. I don't mean that (entirely) in a disparaging manner, I just mean the law is a complicated field, not just the law on the books, but the professional choices that lawyers make. There are complicated rules governing lawyer conduct.
What constitutes and unethical argument to sway the judgment of a jury? I don't know. I don't know if anyone does
I looked up SI of June 27, 1994 (I know I am irrational to be this motivated). I thought I'd find evidence that some of OJS former team mates thought he was on uppers and downers. There were no such statements, and if there had been, it wouldn't have been infallible. It did say, on page 20, that OJS robbed a liquor store at age 14, and Willie Mays (then an active baseball star) visited him to help straighten him out. So he was in some juvenile trouble.

Can you please post the link to where he robbed a liquor store?

[tv]

Can you please post the link to where he robbed a liquor store?

"He spent a week in detention for robbing a liquor store when he was 15. Upon his release, he was met by baseball star Willie Mays who urged him to stay out of trouble and told him to develop his talent."

http://www.theage.com.au/world/law-catches-up-with-oj-simpson-20081206-6snk.html

I'm glad you're feeling better, William. :)

[weezer]

SNIPPED ". . .I don't know of any event that Sydney 'Beat the crap" out of oj.Maby you can inform me of when this was. . ."

old_soul didn't say it was Sydney --

August 28, 2008

O.J. Beat Up by Own Daughter?
Posted by ExtraTV Staff on August 28, 2008 10:21 AM

Fallen footballer O.J. Simpson is headed to trial in Sin City for alleged armed robbery -- but has The Juice now gotten into a scuffle with his own kid?!

According to the National Enquirer, Simpson had a nasty altercation with daughter Arnelle at his Florida home -- and she shoved him into a glass cupboard! The tab claims the two were fighting over O.J.'s girlfriend Christie Prody and her alleged drunken behavior. After Arnelle allegedly knocked O.J. to the ground, she called the cops.

When asked about the scuffle, O.J. replied, "Look at me -- I'm fine."

[William Anthony]

"He spent a week in detention for robbing a liquor store when he was 15. Upon his release, he was met by baseball star Willie Mays who urged him to stay out of trouble and told him to develop his talent."

http://www.theage.com.au/world/law-catches-up-with-oj-simpson-20081206-6snk.html

I'm glad you're feeling better, William. :)

Yes, I am feeling better, thanks. I can not dispute the link but wonder why there are no American articles that I can find on this incident. Buy American. :)

[tv]

Yes, I am feeling better, thanks. I can not dispute the link but wonder why there are no American articles that I can find on this incident. Buy American. :)

I agree with the sentiment of buying American. :) My Grannie always said that any piece of paper will lie still to be written on. I would think that applies to the internet as well. I just know that's the link I came up with. Fgump2 may have another.

[weezer]

Yes, I am feeling better, thanks. I can not dispute the link but wonder why there are no American articles that I can find on this incident. Buy American. :)

orenthal has both written and spoke of this -- I'm surprised that you find it hard to believe. . .

[William Anthony]

I agree with the sentiment of buying American. :) My Grannie always said that any piece of paper will lie still to be written on. I would think that applies to the internet as well. I just know that's the link I came up with. Fgump2 may have another.

I guess it is a small point, as Dr. Walker opined that he did not fit the profile of one with anti-social personality disorder. I like what your Grannie said, smile.

[William Anthony]

orenthal has both written and spoke of this -- I'm surprised that you find it hard to believe. . .

I haven't listen to much of what he said, excluding the tapes, and have read none of what he wrote, except for excerpts provided in the trial coverage.

[martin II]

martin, while I find it interesting to hear how Simpson reacted, it carries only a little weight with me. There are a lot more things that point to his certain guilt. I was taking issue with GI saying that because he didn't ask about the children it points to him being not guilty. That's just silly.

Well i did not see anything in ojs short talk with Phillips that pointed to guilt.

[weezer]

I haven't listen to much of what he said, excluding the tapes, and have read none of what he wrote, except for excerpts provided in the trial coverage.

ahhh -- I try to gather as much as I can -- even when I think I know their story or just not really interested in reading about them. I usually find the comparisons between what people write/say about themselves and who and what they actually are at odds. orenthal was one of those people -- pretended to be something he wasn't. We have a saying here -- you are the dirt you're made of. I guess for orenthal that has proven to be very true.

[weezer]

I guess it is a small point, as Dr. Walker opined that he did not fit the profile of one with anti-social personality disorder. I like what your Grannie said, smile.

although she did feel he fit the profile of an abuser. orenthal admitted during the civil trial that it was since his visits with walker that he realized he was an abuser.

[martin II]

"He spent a week in detention for robbing a liquor store when he was 15. Upon his release, he was met by baseball star Willie Mays who urged him to stay out of trouble and told him to develop his talent."

http://www.theage.com.au/world/law-catches-up-with-oj-simpson-20081206-6snk.html

I'm glad you're feeling better, William. :)

He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. i guess it was robbery of some potato chips if he only did a week. The weapon must have been a pencil.

Nitpicking at its best is what i call that post.
hahaha

[tv]

He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. i guess it was robbery of some potato chips if he only did a week. The weapon must have been a pencil.

Nitpicking at its best is what i call that post.
hahaha

I was only responding to William's request for a link and didn't intend to nitpick. Do they sell potato chips in liquor stores?

[weezer]

He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. i guess it was robbery of some potato chips if he only did a week. The weapon must have been a pencil.

Nitpicking at its best is what i call that post.
hahaha

martin, the fact remains that orenthal was a hoodlum/thug when he was young. in his book he writes about the gang he belonged to and the stuff he pulled -- which was more than stealing potato chips with pencils. in fact, he says, he was lucky to only get caught at that time and to only get the minimal punishment that he did.

when it comes to defending orenthal, you are so pathetic.

[weezer]

I was only responding to William's request for a link and didn't intend to nitpick. Do they sell potato chips in liquor stores?

do you love this "He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. . ." -- oh my! the man went on to be an abuser, thief, liar, double murderer, and convicted felon for armed robbery.

[martin II]

Martin, you keep giving me excuses. He did Nothing to find the 'killers'. He played golf and hung out while hiding money he owed to Nicole's estate and The Goldmans.

No wonder his daughter beat the crap out of him a few years ago....His kids have as much respect for him as the rest of us who believe he did it.

And They know him.

I don't know what the yelling is about but one cannot bake a guilty pie out of beach sand regardless of how great a baker they may believe they are.imo

[martin II]

I was only responding to William's request for a link and didn't intend to nitpick. Do they sell potato chips in liquor stores?

Depending on where you are. they do sell liquor in grocery stores.

[weezer]

Depending on where you are. they do sell liquor in grocery stores.

:confused::punch:

[tv]

do you love this "He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. . ." -- oh my! the man went on to be an abuser, thief, liar, double murderer, and convicted felon for armed robbery.

It never occurred to me that everyone that lives in a poor neighborhood has at least one robbery under their belt...wow, you learn something new everyday. :eek:

[weezer]

I don't know what the yelling is about but one cannot bake a guilty pie out of beach sand regardless of how great a baker they may believe they are.imo

this is very true. the facts are that in 14 years orenthal has done nothing to find the 'real killers' of Nicole -- nor has he allowed anyone else to work on his behalf to find the 'real killers'. go figure

[martin II]

martin, the fact remains that orenthal was a hoodlum/thug when he was young. in his book he writes about the gang he belonged to and the stuff he pulled -- which was more than stealing potato chips with pencils. in fact, he says, he was lucky to only get caught at that time and to only get the minimal punishment that he did.

when it comes to defending orenthal, you are so pathetic.

Any kid that gets out of the gheto with only one arrest and some gang involvement and end up at USC has done quite well.

[weezer]

Any kid that gets out of the gheto with only one arrest and some gang involvement and end up at USC has done quite well.

to end up in prison with the majority of the world believing him to be a double murderer and convicted of armed robbery doesn't sound like he 'done quite well' at all.

[tv]

Depending on where you are. they do sell liquor in grocery stores.
The article said he robbed a liquor store not a grocery store. I haven't been in a liquor store in many years but I don't recall the ABC stores in Virginia or North Carolina having chips. I guess times could have changed. :shrug:Where I live now they have privately owned liquor stores but I've never been in one so I don't know if they have chips. I was just wondering.

[tv]

this is very true. the facts are that in 14 years orenthal has done nothing to find the 'real killers' of Nicole -- nor has he allowed anyone else to work on his behalf to find the 'real killers'. go figure

My feeling is that if anyone digs too deep they might be added to the list of people that have come to the conclusion that OJ Simpson is the 'real killer'. That's why he's not interested in helping an investigation.

[martin II]

this is very true. the facts are that in 14 years orenthal has done nothing to find the 'real killers' of Nicole -- nor has he allowed anyone else to work on his behalf to find the 'real killers'. go figure

Although he may still have loving thought of her i think he had to close the book on that issue.At any rate you are quite a distance on the outside to know what his thoughts and motivations were/are.

[weezer]

Although he may still have loving thought of her i think he had to close the book on that issue.At any rate you are quite a distance on the outside to know what his thoughts and motivations were/are.

I have at least as much insight as to his thoughts and motivations as the orenthal apologists. ;)

[martin II]

The article said he robbed a liquor store not a grocery store. I haven't been in a liquor store in many years but I don't recall the ABC stores in Virginia or North Carolina having chips. I guess times could have changed. :shrug:Where I live now they have privately owned liquor stores but I've never been in one so I don't know if they have chips. I was just wondering.

You may have taken my post about what he may have robbed to serious.

What kind of robbery calls for a week in jail.
For those that understand Ghetto project life for younsters and why kids belong to gangs especially at that time, a pat on the back was in order when he ended up as a popular person at USC. Unless there is some kind of bias against kids from the gheto for some insane reason. To say he robbed a liquor store at 15 so he killed nicole is just plain off the charts.

I think your grandmothers comment was great. i will use it if it is ok with you. Especially with a lawyer i know.
imo

[William Anthony]

although she did feel he fit the profile of an abuser. orenthal admitted during the civil trial that it was since his visits with walker that he realized he was an abuser.

An abuser, not a murderer.

[William Anthony]

ahhh -- I try to gather as much as I can -- even when I think I know their story or just not really interested in reading about them. I usually find the comparisons between what people write/say about themselves and who and what they actually are at odds. orenthal was one of those people -- pretended to be something he wasn't. We have a saying here -- you are the dirt you're made of. I guess for orenthal that has proven to be very true.

I thought you were of the opinion that Simpson is a liar.

[martin II]

I have at least as much insight as to his thoughts and motivations as the orenthal apologists. ;)

It is not reflected in your post.imo

[William Anthony]

I have at least as much insight as to his thoughts and motivations as the orenthal apologists. ;)

I think your fascination with him may cause you to believe you have more insight into his motivations and thoughts.:)

[William Anthony]

to end up in prison with the majority of the world believing him to be a double murderer and convicted of armed robbery doesn't sound like he 'done quite well' at all.

I believe that final chapter in his saga has yet to be written.

[William Anthony]

My feeling is that if anyone digs too deep they might be added to the list of people that have come to the conclusion that OJ Simpson is the 'real killer'. That's why he's not interested in helping an investigation.

There have been some investigations with different conclusions. I don't think any other investigations will have results that are different from those previously espoused.

[martin II]

to end up in prison with the majority of the world believing him to be a double murderer and convicted of armed robbery doesn't sound like he 'done quite well' at all.

Since your post is not in response to mine i will just ignore it.

[old_soul]

do you love this "He did good to get out of the ghetto with one robbery. . ." -- oh my! the man went on to be an abuser, thief, liar, double murderer, and convicted felon for armed robbery.

Oh, truer words never spoken. Thanks for posting that link re Arnelle, weezer.

Child psychologists have spoken of this, but the only one who hasn't seemed to show agression is Justin. I don't know very much about him. Sydney has been violent and arrested, Arnelle, I can't imagine what has been in their minds since they have been 'old enough' to really think about it. Obviously, lots of Anger... I have never ever seen a picture of Sydney smiling since her mother was killed. Before that, many. If anyone has seen one, show me because I would love to see that ( I mean that in the nicest possible way, not sarcastic). They also realize now, that anything the civil court demanded he pay, was going to them for their college. Instead, the money was paid out from Nicole's estate, while he was blowing it on golfing, his $575,000 house, lap dances, and the like. If I read correctly, some $ also came from the Browns......... Even the 1 million he got for his book, the kids didn't see. Always has been all about him, hasn't it?


Martin, I didn't shout/yell 'Nothing'. I made it larger to accentuate my meaning.

With him in Prison now, that must really have put the icing on the proverbial (dysfunctional) cake. Maybe OJ will be able to finally find that killer in Nevada...........

[martin II]

Oh, truer words never spoken. Thanks for posting that link re Arnelle, weezer.

Child psychologists have spoken of this, but the only one who hasn't seemed to show agression is Justin. I don't know very much about him. Sydney has been violent and arrested, Arnelle, I can't imagine what has been in their minds since they have been 'old enough' to really think about it. Obviously, lots of Anger... I have never ever seen a picture of Sydney smiling since her mother was killed. Before that, many. If anyone has seen one, show me because I would love to see that ( I mean that in the nicest possible way, not sarcastic). They also realize now, that anything the civil court demanded he pay, was going to them for their college. Instead, the money was paid out from Nicole's estate, while he was blowing it on golfing, his 4575,000 house, lap dances, and the like. If I read correctly, some $ also came from the Browns......... Even the 1 million he got for his book, the kids didn't see. Always has been all about him, hasn't it?


Martin, I didn't shout/yell 'Nothing'. I made it larger to accentuate my meaning.

With him in Prison now, that must really have put the icing on the proverbial (dysfunctional) cake. Maybe OJ will be able to finally find that killer in Nevada...........

I really don't think he is concerned about finding no killer of Nicole after 13 years. That is history.

[old_soul]

You may have taken my post about what he may have robbed to serious.

What kind of robbery calls for a week in jail.
For those that understand Ghetto project life for younsters and why kids belong to gangs especially at that time, a pat on the back was in order when he ended up as a popular person at USC. Unless there is some kind of bias against kids from the gheto for some insane reason. To say he robbed a liquor store at 15 so he killed nicole is just plain off the charts.

I think your grandmothers comment was great. i will use it if it is ok with you. Especially with a lawyer i know.
imo

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

[martin II]

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

Some go to collage to become lawyers, health care professionals, teachers ,doctors and football players.None is better than the other. Everyone remains who they are. look at the white collar criminals on wall street. Went to great schools, well connected and reaspected famalies that are community leaders.Nice suite white shirts with red white and blue ties on.
But at heart a bunch of low life greedy theifs with no center at a level that the country has not seen. Playing four years of footbal to make your university rich is no easy feat.I see you used Vick as a example.I guess he is the only sports person ever sent to jail. No profession takes the physical beating as sports people do for their checks.imo

PS vic was no worse that all the gun toting hunters that hunt and kill innocent aminals daily.imo

[martin II]

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

What is the differance in the value of a acadamic scholarship and one to learn
how to play football.? i see them as equal in mental ability to be successful.

[martin II]

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

Have you found the proof that Sydney "beat the crap" out of oj a couple of years ago?

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, I don't get that at all. Wouldn't a father think that his young children would be with their mother? The fact that he didn't ask is what points to his guilt. This is reaching a little too far to explain away his strange reaction to hearing his ex-wife was dead.

TV,

In Kato's testimony, he was under the impression that Nicole was going to go out after she got the kids settled that night. Kris Jenner on the LKL show said that Nicole would not go out until after 10 at night because she would not leave if the kids were still up.

Nicole had an active social life, so why would it surprise anyone, especially Simpson if Nicole did go out that night? When Phillips told him that Nicole was killed, OJ gave the proper response, IMO. When Phillips said killed, my first thought was a DWI accident or some other sort of accident. To the best my knowledge, I don't know if Simpson was ever asked what did he think happend to Nicole after Phillips told him he she was "killed".

If Nicole was killed in a car accident or away from the home, his children would not have gone to the police station because their babysitter would have been there with them.

I have no problem with Phillips words and how he told and responded to Simpson's reaction. It is his job to use any technique that he feels will give him the best or most accurate results. IMO, Simpson not asking which wife it was means a big total nothing---as you said, why would he be called about his first wife's death because one, his children are much older and OJ and Nicole been together for 17 years, even after the divorce, they still referred to each other has husband and wife, yes, at times they corrected themselves but still.

[GreenIce]

First of all, we're talking Brentwood. Nicole was expecting Ron. Absolutely NO reason to close the door to the condo behind her as she was going down to the front gate to meet Ron. No one was standing guard by her door, making sure the kids or anyone else didn't come out of the house. The murderer was already in the area behind the gate on Nicoles side, because they came from the back, the same way 'they' left. We already know OJ had possession of Nicole's stolen keys. In the short time it took to murder them and get out, her dog was to the front gate and down the walkway while they were laying there dead.

The area where both were killed was dark. A black man, in a dark outfit with a dark ski cap (which Cochoran so jauntily mocked as he put it on his head) could have just as easily hit him on the head, beat the living crap out of Ron and left him alive. He didn't, because Ron knew who He was, and the rage He felt towards her (and Ron over jealousy etc) made him finish Ron off too.

Good God, Green Ice, I would hope that if this were your sister, that YOU took pictures of after a beating, and knowing what you did know ~ that you would not be spouting this crap about the defense. Initially, OJ was not considered to be a suspect. He put himself there, by his behavior.

A genius.... That is a joke. He lost his glove while he killed. He lost his ski cap while he killed. He left his size 12 in bloody footprints as he cowardly ran away. He left his blood. Do you understand the rage it took, to kill people like this? Her house wasn't robbed. They didn't steal her keys and take her Ferrari.

You don't think it to be important that Kardashian, who knew OJ since the early 70's could not say, without a doubt, that his good buddy was not capable of doing this? And Shapiro also?

As time went by, and the more disenchanted Nicole became with OJ, the harder (to OJ)she was to handle. I'm not saying Nicole was innocent and an angel. I
daresay she gave as good as she got. But...that does not mean that she deserved to die like that. Not because she was finally breaking away and not the adoring, obedient woman she once might have been.

OJ has been making disparaging remarks about her since he got away with murder. There will always be good memories and bad, in any relationship, but to go to show you the parallel, you would think he'd not say anything like he has, to show his kids the love and respect he once had for her. Instead, he has just talked down about her after she was dead...just like he always did.
He is ignorant and still has anger in him towards her. So much for loving her and finding out who killed her...the one he loved 'So Much'.

Old Soul,

Bottom line, there was no testimony about Simpson stealing Nicole's keys or having those same keys on him when he was arrested. Don't you think if the DA's could have proved this, they would have used it in the trial? Lets face it, they had a very difficult time even getting out a consistent theory on the murders. What really hurt their case was the jurors went to Bundy, they saw how small the area was--where was he going to lie in wait?

Why did Nicole come to the door?

I agree with you about a person wearing dark clothes to commit murder, but when presented with the facts, you seem to say that the police had no idea what he wore that night and thats okay because it really didn't matter. Bottom line, Simpson had a lot of clothes--those fibers were not rare and they did no comparision to any sweat suit. The problem was the killer wore expensive shoes, expensive gloves, apparently dress socks but he wore a cheap sweat suit that shed fibers? There is no scientific proof that bridges the gap between the fibers and the sweat suit. None--not even Dougie D. could link them up and I am sure he tried.

It is laughable for anyone to believe that Simpson was not a suspect. What I find amazing is how 4 police detectives, with over a 100 years of experience said they did not suspect him. Yet, Fuhrman knew they had joint custody of the kids---that was in his testimony in the prelim hearing--how did he know that? Thats right, he knew Nicole from at least 2 other police matters previous to that night---but, nope those boys in blues were just dumb struck fools who had no clue who would have done this. Laughable! IMO.

[martin II]

Old Soul,

Bottom line, there was no testimony about Simpson stealing Nicole's keys or having those same keys on him when he was arrested. Don't you think if the DA's could have proved this, they would have used it in the trial? Lets face it, they had a very difficult time even getting out a consistent theory on the murders. What really hurt their case was the jurors went to Bundy, they saw how small the area was--where was he going to lie in wait?

Why did Nicole come to the door?

I agree with you about a person wearing dark clothes to commit murder, but when presented with the facts, you seem to say that the police had no idea what he wore that night and thats okay because it really didn't matter. Bottom line, Simpson had a lot of clothes--those fibers were not rare and they did no comparision to any sweat suit. The problem was the killer wore expensive shoes, expensive gloves, apparently dress socks but he wore a cheap sweat suit that shed fibers? There is no scientific proof that bridges the gap between the fibers and the sweat suit. None--not even Dougie D. could link them up and I am sure he tried.

It is laughable for anyone to believe that Simpson was not a suspect. What I find amazing is how 4 police detectives, with over a 100 years of experience said they did not suspect him. Yet, Fuhrman knew they had joint custody of the kids---that was in his testimony in the prelim hearing--how did he know that? Thats right, he knew Nicole from at least 2 other police matters previous to that night---but, nope those boys in blues were just dumb struck fools who had no clue who would have done this. Laughable! IMO.

The four of them went to Rockingham as they thought they would find oj there trying to get rid of evidence.OJ was a suspect then.

[old_soul]

Green Ice ~

I already suggested you refresh yourself on the case. You need to do this before posting and refuting facts.

http://wagnerandson.com/oj/keys.htm

Nicole was waiting for Ron ...she was expecting him.. Why did she come to what door? Are you referring to the gate? The killer, OJ, doesn't seem to have come from the front. Since he did have keys for the front and back, and he always came in the back street when he picked the children up, it stands to reason ~ coming in through a dark back entrance unexpectedly fits. Look at pictures where they found the blood drops~
OJ's blood drops and footprints. Lots of room to wait there.

[martin II]

The last time Denise Brown commented about the kids she said both were doing very well. Sydney is a junoir at a MA college.
She had two incidents that made the media.
1. At a high school ball game some girls made some negative remarks about Nicole she slapped the girl. The incident was over when le arrived.They decided to hand cuff her.she gave some resistance.
2 One night in Florida she wanted to go out late to a party. Oj told her it was too late. She became angry and called the police on him. The police came, talked to her and oj and told her to mind her father and go to bed.

Justin if a junior at a Florida college and plays cricket i belive it is.

Sydney lives on campus during school and comes home to ojs during breaks and summer. Justin lives there. Sydney travels to CA to visit her friends i think Coras children and others but she does not go to the Browns.

The pictures i have seen of them presents them as a happy Family.The two younger children, Arnell, justin and OJ.

What is odd is how some just know they are unhappy and problem kids full of anger and have never met either. imo

[old_soul]

Have you found the proof that Sydney "beat the crap" out of oj a couple of years ago?

Hey Martin, I never said it was Sydney :no:...you did. I said "his daughter".

weezer posted a link and story on the prior page (41) post # 1610.

[martin II]

Green Ice ~

I already suggested you refresh yourself on the case. You need to do this before posting and refuting facts.

http://wagnerandson.com/oj/keys.htm

Nicole was waiting for Ron ...she was expecting him.. Why did she come to what door? Are you referring to the gate? The killer, OJ, doesn't seem to have come from the front. Since he did have keys for the front and back, and he always came in the back street when he picked the children up, it stands to reason ~ coming in through a dark back entrance unexpectedly fits. Look at pictures where they found the blood drops~
OJ's blood drops and footprints. Lots of room to wait there.


Great post.

[martin II]

Hey Martin, I never said it was Sydney :no:...you did. I said "his daughter".

weezer posted a link and story on the prior page (41) post # 1610.

Our coversation at the time was about the younger kids so i assumed by Daughter you meant sydney,

Arnell pushed oj against a piece of furnature.That does not sound like she 'BEAT THE CRAP" out of him.imo

[martin II]

There was never any sweats examined in any lab to compare their fibers to the fibers found at Bundy.The prosecution expert could not prove that they did.

So for some to say oj was wearing that or any dark sweat suit at the murder scene is completely without fact. Just noise. imo

[martin II]

Oh, truer words never spoken. Thanks for posting that link re Arnelle, weezer.

Child psychologists have spoken of this, but the only one who hasn't seemed to show agression is Justin. I don't know very much about him. Sydney has been violent and arrested, Arnelle, I can't imagine what has been in their minds since they have been 'old enough' to really think about it. Obviously, lots of Anger... I have never ever seen a picture of Sydney smiling since her mother was killed. Before that, many. If anyone has seen one, show me because I would love to see that ( I mean that in the nicest possible way, not sarcastic). They also realize now, that anything the civil court demanded he pay, was going to them for their college. Instead, the money was paid out from Nicole's estate, while he was blowing it on golfing, his $575,000 house, lap dances, and the like. If I read correctly, some $ also came from the Browns......... Even the 1 million he got for his book, the kids didn't see. Always has been all about him, hasn't it?


Martin, I didn't shout/yell 'Nothing'. I made it larger to accentuate my meaning.

With him in Prison now, that must really have put the icing on the proverbial (dysfunctional) cake. Maybe OJ will be able to finally find that killer in Nevada...........

OJ said he paid up his taxes on his home and spent money to protect his kids legacy.
Now where did you get this info that money was paid out of NBS estate.
OJ has always paid all of his kids college and other expenses.
Now exactly where did you get your info that the kids did not get or benefit
from the $1,000,000 received from the book deal?

Based on your post you seem to have a direct wire into how he and the Browns have handeled their finances and the NBS estate.

imo

[tv]

Some go to collage to become lawyers, health care professionals, teachers ,doctors and football players.None is better than the other. Everyone remains who they are. look at the white collar criminals on wall street. Went to great schools, well connected and reaspected famalies that are community leaders.Nice suite white shirts with red white and blue ties on.
But at heart a bunch of low life greedy theifs with no center at a level that the country has not seen. Playing four years of footbal to make your university rich is no easy feat.I see you used Vick as a example.I guess he is the only sports person ever sent to jail. No profession takes the physical beating as sports people do for their checks.imo

PS vic was no worse that all the gun toting hunters that hunt and kill innocent aminals daily.imo


I've yet to hear of a hunter torturing a deer to death or leaving them to die of infection or even body-slamming one to death. These two things can't be compared.

[tv]

The last time Denise Brown commented about the kids she said both were doing very well. Sydney is a junoir at a MA college.
She had two incidents that made the media.
1. At a high school ball game some girls made some negative remarks about Nicole she slapped the girl. The incident was over when le arrived.They decided to hand cuff her.she gave some resistance.
2 One night in Florida she wanted to go out late to a party. Oj told her it was too late. She became angry and called the police on him. The police came, talked to her and oj and told her to mind her father and go to bed.

Justin if a junior at a Florida college and plays cricket i belive it is.

Sydney lives on campus during school and comes home to ojs during breaks and summer. Justin lives there. Sydney travels to CA to visit her friends i think Coras children and others but she does not go to the Browns.

The pictures i have seen of them presents them as a happy Family.The two younger children, Arnell, justin and OJ.

What is odd is how some just know they are unhappy and problem kids full of anger and have never met either. imo

The interesting thing about Sydney's 911 call is that she told the operator that her father 'doesn't love any of his children'. Many times real feelings come out in a emotional situation like that.

[martin II]

I've yet to hear of a hunter torturing a deer to death or leaving them to die of infection or even body-slamming one to death. These two things can't be compared.

When a animal is shot by a hunter he lays on the ground in great pain. When a deer is shot you don't think that is torture. Ask the deer. Ask PETA about minks.

[martin II]

The interesting thing about Sydney's 911 call is that she told the operator that her father 'doesn't love any of his children'. Many times real feelings come out in a emotional situation like that.

Teenager may say anything when they cannot have their way.Especially you don't love me.

[tv]

You may have taken my post about what he may have robbed to serious.

What kind of robbery calls for a week in jail.
For those that understand Ghetto project life for younsters and why kids belong to gangs especially at that time, a pat on the back was in order when he ended up as a popular person at USC. Unless there is some kind of bias against kids from the gheto for some insane reason. To say he robbed a liquor store at 15 so he killed nicole is just plain off the charts.

I think your grandmothers comment was great. i will use it if it is ok with you. Especially with a lawyer i know.
imo
Thanks, martin. My grandmother was a very wise woman with a little saying for almost everything. I just wish I could remember them all. I didn't mean to take your post too seriously -- I was just wondering, that's all. :)

[tv]

Teenager may say anything when they cannot have their way.Especially you don't love me.

I think we beat this 911 call to pieces once before. I think it would be almost impossible for Sydney and Justin to be emotionally and mentally unaffected by what happened to their mother. As someone said before, you don't see pictures of Sydney smiling -- I'm sure she smiles but I've never seen one.

[tv]

When a animal is shot by a hunter he lays on the ground in great pain. When a deer is shot you don't think that is torture. Ask the deer. Ask PETA about minks.
martin, this is off-topic, but when a deer is shot it is killed then or very shortly after as soon as the hunter reaches the deer. I've even seen hunters stop and kill deer that have hit by cars on the side of the road. I know of a hunter that cried because he stopped where a fawn had been killed by a car and had to kill the fawn due to his severe injuries. Every year a lot of venison is donated to hungry and homeless people. If the deer population gets too large they die of starvation and that's a very sad death for them. One thing hunters don't believe in is the prolonged suffering of the game they hunt. I don't know anything about minks -- I live in deer and bear country.

[old_soul]

I just don't think OJ was the person he made himself out to be. This is a very sad letter.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/simpson/brownletter.html

[old_soul]

I think we beat this 911 call to pieces once before. I think it would be almost impossible for Sydney and Justin to be emotionally and mentally unaffected by what happened to their mother. As someone said before, you don't see pictures of Sydney smiling -- I'm sure she smiles but I've never seen one.

then (95), and now...............

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hrpu9i.jpghttp://i41.tinypic.com/vo530j.jpg

[martin II]

Green Ice ~

I already suggested you refresh yourself on the case. You need to do this before posting and refuting facts.

http://wagnerandson.com/oj/keys.htm

Nicole was waiting for Ron ...she was expecting him.. Why did she come to what door? Are you referring to the gate? The killer, OJ, doesn't seem to have come from the front. Since he did have keys for the front and back, and he always came in the back street when he picked the children up, it stands to reason ~ coming in through a dark back entrance unexpectedly fits. Look at pictures where they found the blood drops~
OJ's blood drops and footprints. Lots of room to wait there.


A killer did not need a key to get to Nicoles yard. All one would have to do is climb over that back gate and he would be in.

[martin II]

then (95), and now...............

http://i44.tinypic.com/2hrpu9i.jpghttp://i41.tinypic.com/vo530j.jpg

She looks great.

[old_soul]

She looks great.

Not very light hearted looking, but she's lovely.

[old_soul]

Who has read this? I haven't.......

IMO, this is scary. WTH would he write this?
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTRIALS/Simpson/ifididit.html

[martin II]

I think we beat this 911 call to pieces once before. I think it would be almost impossible for Sydney and Justin to be emotionally and mentally unaffected by what happened to their mother. As someone said before, you don't see pictures of Sydney smiling -- I'm sure she smiles but I've never seen one.

Not everyone is a grinner. And that may be a good thing.
To assume that one has not seen a picture of her grinning therefore she is not happy means that one may not have seen all of her pictures or that whether she is a grinner or not means nothing about her being happy.Again trying to creat a apple pie out of sand. Kinda mean spirited and negative if you ask me.

[martin II]

Who has read this? I haven't.......

IMO, this is scary. WTH would he write this?
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/FTRIALS/Simpson/ifididit.html

There are oj haters.
He got the positions of the bodies wrong and others things in the beginning. i only read the first two paragraphs. Personally i try not to post trash here.

[martin II]

Not very light hearted looking, but she's lovely.

She has to look light hearted?

[old_soul]

There are oj haters.
He got the positions of the bodies wrong and others things in the beginning. i only read the first two paragraphs. Personally i try not to post trash here.



You misunderstand me.......

This is an excerpt from your man OJ's If I Did It. My question is:

Why did OJ Write this? It is disgusting, especially if he really did not commit those murders! Disgusting.

You try not to post trash here? You're right ~ He's trash.

[GreenIce]

Green Ice ~

I already suggested you refresh yourself on the case. You need to do this before posting and refuting facts.

http://wagnerandson.com/oj/keys.htm

Nicole was waiting for Ron ...she was expecting him.. Why did she come to what door? Are you referring to the gate? The killer, OJ, doesn't seem to have come from the front. Since he did have keys for the front and back, and he always came in the back street when he picked the children up, it stands to reason ~ coming in through a dark back entrance unexpectedly fits. Look at pictures where they found the blood drops~
OJ's blood drops and footprints. Lots of room to wait there.

Old Soul,

I am always refreshing my self on this case. You can learn new things every time you read something on the case.

Just think about this, there is no way to prove that Simpson stole the keys. However, why didn't the DA's make a very logical arguement--that Simpson did have a set of Nicole's keys, he was given to him several months before the murders. In fact, Nicole also had a set of Simpson's keys. Is it totally out of the question that Nicole did not give Simpson a set a keys when they were still trying to make a go of it? Why the sinister spin? Does it really make a difference if Simpson stole the keys?

Also, it is obvious that Nicole did suspect Faye of taking these keys. What about Nicole's housekeeper, did she testify about the keys in the criminal trial?

In regards to why Nicole came to the front door---I got distracted and forgot to finish my thought. A big deal was made about the knife being left out on the counter. If Nicole suspected she was in danger, why answer the door with out bring the knife? If she was as scared of Simpson as Dr. Ameli said she was and convinced Simpson was coming for her that night, why even open the door?

And to the best of my knowledge, while Wagner may have great web site and explains his positions in an excellent manner--it does not mean that is what did happen. Since the DA's did not introduce the keys into the trial, all there is left to is to give our personal opinons.

As for the key fitting the back gate--well again the LAPD and DA's had another "Catch 22". First off, the locksmith removing the lock did not make it impossible for the police to determine if a key fit into the old lock. Second problem, according to MF, there was a blood fingerprint on that lock--why wasn't the locksmith called to testify? The DA's a glove expert--it never occured to them to call the locksmith?

[GreenIce]

She has to look light hearted?

Martin,

How many people do you know who hate to have their picture taken? Was Sydney supposed to stop for the media she detests and give them a smile?

[GreenIce]

Martin,

If I remember correctly, the DA's said that the blood trail from the Bronco to Simpson's was consistent with OJ walking from his Bronco to the front door, is that correct?

Martin, another question, did Kato got with OJ into the kitchen while OJ was looking for a flashlight for Kate?

[GreenIce]

The four of them went to Rockingham as they thought they would find oj there trying to get rid of evidence.OJ was a suspect then.

Martin,

That is what truly bothers me about the detectives---they well with in the law on this issue. The only thing the detectives had to say was that they suspected Simpson was getting rid of evidence.

That is another reason why I believe Fuhrman did go to Rockingham long before he went with Lange and Vanatter, IMO.

[fgump2]

Fgump2,

I have been a similiar situation, suffering the sudden death of a family member. If I gave you a list of the things I did on that day, you would think that either I was the coldest person you have every met in your life or that I was not dealing the reality of the situation. Now, I did not have the press nor was I suspect in the murder, but again, when I look back at that day, I can't believe some of the things I did and said.

In regards to Mr. Simpson's children, the only thing that I can say is that if I did murder my ex and I called my in-laws house and they right away accused me of being the killer, I would not have sent my children to them. Not when I had family members to it, especially with a much older brother and sister. And if I did decide to send them, it wouldn't before I got a chance to talk to them about what they saw or heard that night.

Simpson calling Kato is what it is, he wanted to know if they were ripping his house apart. If Simpson is the killer, he had more problems at Bundy then he did at his own home. Remember when Det. Phillips told him that Nicole was killed and Phillips told him to pull himself together because his kids were at the police station. Simpson asked him what his kids were doing at the police station? If Simpson murdered Nicole, he would have known why his kids were there, IMO, he did not know where Nicole was killed. Again, IMO, if he was the killer, he would not have sent Sydney and Justin to Dana Point. He would have made sure that Arnelle and AC kept the kids close until he got home. He had no way of knowing what either of kids saw or heard that night.

****************
Even if we ignore OJS's behavior in the day or two after the murders, there is still a lot of his behavior that indicates guilt: - on the bronco chase he talked to a detective and said 'you're (detective) a good guy... I'm the only one who deserves to be punished'. I have often gotten angry about accusations a lot less serious than murder. Also he claimed to be upset about what people would think of him (that he was guilty). My experience is that grieving people are unconcerned with what others think.

During the trial some reporters and even one of his nieces (I think) observed that he showed no hostility toward the police detectives, Lange, Vanneter, or even MF, but seemed to have more hostility toward the Goldmans. This hostility toward the Goldmans was pretty explicit after the acquittal.
The fact that he never expressed regret for not acting nicer to Nicole is also telling. In Florida he once said 'Sometimes when a man kills a woman, she had it coming'. That was bound to cause turmoil for the 2 children (or should I write his four children) I am pretty sure that before the civil trial people saw and heard him cursing at Nicole's grave. I believed he admitted to this.
He also once said 'Even if I did kill her it would had to have been because I loved her so much'
To answer WA, I have no links about OJS's juvenile problems.

[GreenIce]

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

Old Soul,

You make an excellent point about Simpson and football--however, this statement goes against the posts that have been made about how everybody love Simpson and because of that, no one plant evidence against him, etc.

Isn't it possible that many, many people resent and/or are jealous that he made his fortune by playing a silly game, when they had a "real" job and live paycheck to check?

Mr. Simpson paved the way for many former players who needed to make a transition from football into the "real world".

[old_soul]

Old Soul,

I am always refreshing my self on this case. You can learn new things every time you read something on the case.

Just think about this, there is no way to prove that Simpson stole the keys. However, why didn't the DA's make a very logical arguement--that Simpson did have a set of Nicole's keys, he was given to him several months before the murders. In fact, Nicole also had a set of Simpson's keys. Is it totally out of the question that Nicole did not give Simpson a set a keys when they were still trying to make a go of it? Why the sinister spin? Does it really make a difference if Simpson stole the keys?

Also, it is obvious that Nicole did suspect Faye of taking these keys. What about Nicole's housekeeper, did she testify about the keys in the criminal trial?

In regards to why Nicole came to the front door---I got distracted and forgot to finish my thought. A big deal was made about the knife being left out on the counter. If Nicole suspected she was in danger, why answer the door with out bring the knife? If she was as scared of Simpson as Dr. Ameli said she was and convinced Simpson was coming for her that night, why even open the door?

And to the best of my knowledge, while Wagner may have great web site and explains his positions in an excellent manner--it does not mean that is what did happen. Since the DA's did not introduce the keys into the trial, all there is left to is to give our personal opinons.

As for the key fitting the back gate--well again the LAPD and DA's had another "Catch 22". First off, the locksmith removing the lock did not make it impossible for the police to determine if a key fit into the old lock. Second problem, according to MF, there was a blood fingerprint on that lock--why wasn't the locksmith called to testify? The DA's a glove expert--it never occured to them to call the locksmith?

I believe Martin was right whe he said the key didn't matter ~ he could have went over the back fence, so it's a moot point. I'm guessing that it why it wasn't brought up in trial. What does matter, is that those keys with the identifying tags are the ones she claimed were stolen ~ and he had them. She did not give them to him, and even made comments that she thought he stole them. He was stalking her. She didn't want him around ..... What makes you think she gave him a copy?


Going back to the door. She was expecting Ron. Don't know if you're aware that it was 29 feet from Nicole's door to the gate outside. It could not be seen from her doorway. She had to go down 2 sets of stair, 4 or 5 steps each to get the envelope from Ron. She might have gone down early...to wait a few minutes....
(as I remember (?) the intercom wasn't working). Someone can correct me on that, cause I can't remember.

The knife? Don't know why it was there. For protection? For an apple or pear? I really don't know.

[GreenIce]

****************
Even if we ignore OJS's behavior in the day or two after the murders, there is still a lot of his behavior that indicates guilt: - on the bronco chase he talked to a detective and said 'you're (detective) a good guy... I'm the only one who deserves to be punished'. I have often gotten angry about accusations a lot less serious than murder. Also he claimed to be upset about what people would think of him (that he was guilty). My experience is that grieving people are unconcerned with what others think.

During the trial some reporters and even one of his nieces (I think) observed that he showed no hostility toward the police detectives, Lange, Vanneter, or even MF, but seemed to have more hostility toward the Goldmans. This hostility toward the Goldmans was pretty explicit after the acquittal.
The fact that he never expressed regret for not acting nicer to Nicole is also telling. In Florida he once said 'Sometimes when a man kills a woman, she had it coming'. That was bound to cause turmoil for the 2 children (or should I write his four children) I am pretty sure that before the civil trial people saw and heard him cursing at Nicole's grave. I believed he admitted to this.
He also once said 'Even if I did kill her it would had to have been because I loved her so much'
To answer WA, I have no links about OJS's juvenile problems.

fgump2,

I totally agree with you, that one statement about he was the only one who deserved to be hurt. The DA's didn't use this in their case, why? First off, we do not know about the all phone calls Simpson made in the Bronco nor do we know if the full transcript of Lange and Simpson has been released.

I do remember the media saying that Simpson never once accused the police in planting evidence or trying to frame him for the murders. However, later some of Simpson's conversations were leaked and in at least one phone call to his mother, he did say that he was being framed.

Simpson had every right to believe that he was being framed for the murders during the Bronco chase, but why, at that time, would he think the police did it? We also know that the media were reporting about a blood ski mask, etc., Simpson had no way of knowing if what was reported was true or not. If he didn't kill Nicole--then why would he believe all the press reports about what was found or not found?

And again, you have to ask why the state didn't use this statement, that had to be a reason and saying that the reason the DA's didn't use it because it was self-serving. Well does that really surprise anyone? The DA's were going to open a door that they would never be able to close, IMO.

I have to totally disagree with you about grieving people not caring with others think. Mr. Simpson's fame did not make it harder on him to be accused of killing his wife then anyone else. Mr. Simpson, like anyone else accused of murder has to worry about what people think of them. They need to know this to prepare the trial--IMO.

[tv]

Old Soul,

You make an excellent point about Simpson and football--however, this statement goes against the posts that have been made about how everybody love Simpson and because of that, no one plant evidence against him, etc.

Isn't it possible that many, many people resent and/or are jealous that he made his fortune by playing a silly game, when they had a "real" job and live paycheck to check?

Mr. Simpson paved the way for many former players who needed to make a transition from football into the "real world".

Don't you think those cops were used to interacting with celebrities due to living and working where they did? There are a few celebrities who live near me and I have a real job but I don't plan on planting evidence to frame them for anything and I don't know of anyone else who would do that either.

If any evidence was manipulated it was done by Simpson and/or someone helping him out. Where is the knife from the knife box on the side of the tub? Where is the sweat suit from the washer? Where is the small bag that disappeared after his ride to the airport? Where are the Bruno Maglis he was photographed wearing 7 months before the murders?

GreenIce, I'm still waiting for the link to LE collecting and testing the sweats.

[GreenIce]

I believe Martin was right whe he said the key didn't matter ~ he could have went over the back fence, so it's a moot point. I'm guessing that it why it wasn't brought up in trial. What does matter, is that those keys with the identifying tags are the ones she claimed were stolen ~ and he had them. She did not give them to him, and even made comments that she thought he stole them. He was stalking her. She didn't want him around ..... What makes you think she gave him a copy?


Going back to the door. She was expecting Ron. Don't know if you're aware that it was 29 feet from Nicole's door to the gate outside. It could not be seen from her doorway. She had to go down 2 sets of stair, 4 or 5 steps each to get the envelope from Ron. She might have gone down early...to wait a few minutes....
(as I remember (?) the intercom wasn't working). Someone can correct me on that, cause I can't remember.

The knife? Don't know why it was there. For protection? For an apple or pear? I really don't know.

Old Soul,

I think Martin makes an excellent point---the keys, in his opinon, don't matter. However, how can you say that the keys did not matter to the LAPD and the DA's? Again, prove that Simpson stole them. Prove that he did not already have a set keys long before the murders. Obviously the DA's couldn't. The issue of the "stolen" keys would open the door to Faye Resnick and the DA's did not want her anywhere in their case.

[old_soul]

Old Soul,

You make an excellent point about Simpson and football--however, this statement goes against the posts that have been made about how everybody love Simpson and because of that, no one plant evidence against him, etc.

Isn't it possible that many, many people resent and/or are jealous that he made his fortune by playing a silly game, when they had a "real" job and live paycheck to check?

Mr. Simpson paved the way for many former players who needed to make a transition from football into the "real world".

I have friends that would gladly take 1/4 of what any one of them would make..............you could say they are envious! LOL

NFL 2007 salaries

Jaylen Allen $500 million for 5 years
Dwight Freeney $72 million for 6 years - approx 12 million a year
Michael Vick (2005) $23,102,750.00 million for 1 year

Baseball
A Rod $198,413,252.00 yearly
Derek Jeter $161,230,000.00 yearly
Pedro Martinez $146, 259,585.00 yearly

To people who love their sport, I imagine they feel 'their boys' deserve it. I am not one of those. Highly overated and highly overpaid. Ridiculous.

To answer Martins earlier question.... No, I do not equate a football scholarship to something as important as an academic career. Would anyone rather have a great football player, or someone who can cure your mom, dad or you if one of you was disgnosed with cancer?

No Contest.

[GreenIce]

Don't you think those cops were used to interacting with celebrities due to living and working where they did? There are a few celebrities who live near me and I have a real job but I don't plan on planting evidence to frame them for anything and I don't know of anyone else who would do that either.

If any evidence was manipulated it was done by Simpson and/or someone helping him out. Where is the knife from the knife box on the side of the tub? Where is the sweat suit from the washer? Where is the small bag that disappeared after his ride to the airport? Where are the Bruno Maglis he was photographed wearing 7 months before the murders?

GreenIce, I'm still waiting for the link to LE collecting and testing the sweats.

TV,

Like I posted before, many people pass on their morals and ethics on the state's witnesses. They are given credibily because we think if we were cops, we would never do this.

I agree with you that if Simpson is the killer, he had help---before he left for LA. Since he gave the murder weapon, shoes, clothes, to his accomplice then the issue of how many bags or which bag Simpson told Kato he would get is completely nullified. He knew that those items would not be found on his property.

In regards to the knife box on the tub, well wasn't that a pocket knife or something similar? And I don't where the knife box went, it could have been collected as evidence--we don't know.

I know Fuhrman said that the pocket knife could have the murder weapon, so he was the only one in the world who knew this? He gave his theory to the DA's or the LAPD?


I believe I posted what I read in a book, the sweats were taken but no blood was found on them. Where is your link that they were not collected and tested? Where is your link that the fibers were compared to a sweat suit? Post your link on Dennis Fung's testimony about handling the sweats.

Kato was never sure what OJ was wearing, however, he thought it was a sweat suit with white piping. When did Fung testify about comparing what he handled and what Kato saw that night?

Remember, Kato got it all wrong on what Simpson was wearing to the airport. I think he said he thought it was the same sweat suit--well if that is true, then Kato would have been positive what Simpson was wearing that night.

[old_soul]

Old Soul,

I think Martin makes an excellent point---the keys, in his opinon, don't matter. However, how can you say that the keys did not matter to the LAPD and the DA's? Again, prove that Simpson stole them. Prove that he did not already have a set keys long before the murders. Obviously the DA's couldn't. The issue of the "stolen" keys would open the door to Faye Resnick and the DA's did not want her anywhere in their case.

Ummmmmmmm I don't think you read my post. The keys were on a specific key chain. The ones that she said were stolen. She was worried. Found on him in the Bronco, with the $8,000, the passport etc. He even admitted they were hers.

Got it?

[GreenIce]

I have friends that would gladly take 1/4 of what any one of them would make..............you could say they are envious! LOL

NFL 2007 salaries

Jaylen Allen $500 million for 5 years
Dwight Freeney $72 million for 6 years - approx 12 million a year
Michael Vick (2005) $23,102,750.00 million for 1 year

Baseball
A Rod $198,413,252.00 yearly
Derek Jeter $161,230,000.00 yearly
Pedro Martinez $146, 259,585.00 yearly

To people who love their sport, I imagine they feel 'their boys' deserve it. I am not one of those. Highly overated and highly overpaid. Ridiculous.

To answer Martins earlier question.... No, I do not equate a football scholarship to something as important as an academic career. Would anyone rather have a great football player, or someone who can cure your mom, dad or you if one of you was disgnosed with cancer?

No Contest.

Old Soul,

Brace yourself, I agree with you. I love sports but I find that the money the players make today has ruined many of them. However, I feel the same way about actors and their pay days. I really bothers me how much it costs to go the movies--I mean I want to see the movie but I don't want to become a sponsor.

[old_soul]

Old Soul,

Brace yourself, I agree with you. I love sports but I find that the money the players make today has ruined many of them. However, I feel the same way about actors and their pay days. I really bothers me how much it costs to go the movies--I mean I want to see the movie but I don't want to become a sponsor.


:beer: ITA

Well...........

That's it for me ~ for now.........ready for Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
Catch you later!

[Parker]

Martin, you keep giving me excuses. He did Nothing to find the 'killers'. He played golf and hung out while hiding money he owed to Nicole's estate and The Goldmans.

No wonder his daughter beat the crap out of him a few years ago....His kids have as much respect for him as the rest of us who believe he did it.

And They know him.

It's a real pleasure to read your commonsense, logical posts. I agree, absolutely. :)

[William Anthony]

That was my point exactly a few pages back. OJ. The Hero. Local Boy done good. Let's get this straight, it was not an academic scholarship, it was for football that he wound up at USC. There are many others like Obama, who deserve to be revered for what they have achieved coming out of a less than middle class situation. Seems to me, many who are on to bigger and better things in sports still fall back on the people they truly are. Vicks has (had!) more money than he knew what to do with, but that didn't stop him from doing what he did ~ he knew better. I am tired of 'look what he did with himself', so wonderful. Yes, look what they both did. They both are no better than where they started. They had it easy because of sports.

What difference does it make how a person gets an education, whether through sports or academia? I would not go to a plumber to fix my car. Those in sports have short-lived careers and often sustain life long injuries, which, while their salaries may be exorbitant, the salaries are necessary. There have been many who have gotten into legal troubles to include Jake
Lamatto and Pete Rose. America recognizes skill and education.

[Jayme K]

What difference does it make how a person gets an education, whether through sports or academia? I would not go to a plumber to fix my car. Those in sports have short-lived careers and often sustain life long injuries, which, while their salaries may be exorbitant, the salaries are necessary. There have been many who have gotten into legal troubles to include Jake
Lamatto and Pete Rose. America recognizes skill and education.

I guess my main problem with the entire athletic scholarship issue is that back where I come from athletic scouts from universities would take these guys who excelled in sports and give them a scholarship even if they were practically flunking out of high school and didn't have the grades enough to do anything other than attend a local junior college. Once at the university, playing their sport, blind eyes were turned at the actual "education" part as long as the sport was being played. End result? These guys got a full ride and came out with no more education than they had when they arrived. But thumb the nose at those of us who worked fifty hours a week while in high school to help mom put food on the table while still maintaining a 4.0 and excelling in academics ... I sure didn't get a full ride, or even a partial one.

Sorry for the off topic rant:)

[Parker]

What difference does it make how a person gets an education, whether through sports or academia? I would not go to a plumber to fix my car. Those in sports have short-lived careers and often sustain life long injuries, which, while their salaries may be exorbitant, the salaries are necessary. There have been many who have gotten into legal troubles to include Jake
Lamatto and Pete Rose. America recognizes skill and education.

We also recognise the truth. It might be explained away in the courts if you have enough money or enough people who say you are innocent, but we're not stupid. If OJ was such a good guy he wouldn't be behind bars now.

[martin II]

Martin,

That is what truly bothers me about the detectives---they well with in the law on this issue. The only thing the detectives had to say was that they suspected Simpson was getting rid of evidence.

That is another reason why I believe Fuhrman did go to Rockingham long before he went with Lange and Vanatter, IMO.

Furhman had a special interest in Nicole as obvious by his reported statement about her breast enlargement to other officers at work.Some how he embeded himself in the trip to Rockingham and ended up being the one to go voer the wall.They all though he was a suspect as there was no reason for four to go make a notification.

[martin II]

Old Soul,

Brace yourself, I agree with you. I love sports but I find that the money the players make today has ruined many of them. However, I feel the same way about actors and their pay days. I really bothers me how much it costs to go the movies--I mean I want to see the movie but I don't want to become a sponsor.

Another perspective.

Many wall street types get scholistic schlorships and or MBA which some see as a higher calling.Then they join a bunch of crooks to deceive the American public out of their life savings. Some of these guys receive $200,000 salary
a year or two out of college and 3-4 Million $ bonus for failure. A sports guy makes $10-20 million for 5-6 years and is lucky to be able to play those years.
Thers is a junk yard pile of players that can no longer work because of injuries or that have just been tossed by owners.

sports is a business just like any other business. Players play for the enjoyment of the public who pay large sums of money to a select group of owners. They pay a small portion of this income to players that are responsible for this income as they trade them from team to team like slaves without their consent. No players No income.Bad players low income.
It is no different than any other business with the exception that players put their lives on the line to entertain spectators who say they need entertainment in their lives.

Ps Some may not know it but it was Oj simpson and a few others that caused
the NFL to create a retirement and benefits program for players that were forced by injuries to retire.Before his efforts they received Zero benefits.

Some look at college or professional sports as a bunch of dumb guys running down a field with a ball but it is much more than that and takes more brain and physical abililty to be successful.

I give Doctors my highest level of respect but then there are those that work for pharmaceutical companies against patient interest.
imo

[martin II]

Ummmmmmmm I don't think you read my post. The keys were on a specific key chain. The ones that she said were stolen. She was worried. Found on him in the Bronco, with the $8,000, the passport etc. He even admitted they were hers.

Got it?

I think that most people that travel a lot carry large sums of money and their passport on most trips.A passport is a legal form of ID.I carry mine whenever i leave town. The keys means nothing as far as the murders was concerned as a key was not required to enter Nicoles yard.

[martin II]

Ummmmmmmm I don't think you read my post. The keys were on a specific key chain. The ones that she said were stolen. She was worried. Found on him in the Bronco, with the $8,000, the passport etc. He even admitted they were hers.

Got it?

Faye claims that Nicole wanted to give her a set of keys.A person that was freebasing in her house that was broke that had caused 'PEOPLE' to come to nicoles house that Nicole said made her nervous or she did not like.Nicole obviously suspected Faye of stealing her keys when she searched her pocketbook. So Nicole wanted to give Faye a set of keys. A drugie that she was trying to get out of her house.imo

Again oj or no other person wouild know a ket was not required to enter Nicoles property.Look at the date that the keys went missing and the last day oj was inside nicoles house. This was long before the keys went missing as he usually picked the kids up from outside the house.

[martin II]

TV,

Like I posted before, many people pass on their morals and ethics on the state's witnesses. They are given credibily because we think if we were cops, we would never do this.

I agree with you that if Simpson is the killer, he had help---before he left for LA. Since he gave the murder weapon, shoes, clothes, to his accomplice then the issue of how many bags or which bag Simpson told Kato he would get is completely nullified. He knew that those items would not be found on his property.

In regards to the knife box on the tub, well wasn't that a pocket knife or something similar? And I don't where the knife box went, it could have been collected as evidence--we don't know.

I know Fuhrman said that the pocket knife could have the murder weapon, so he was the only one in the world who knew this? He gave his theory to the DA's or the LAPD?


I believe I posted what I read in a book, the sweats were taken but no blood was found on them. Where is your link that they were not collected and tested? Where is your link that the fibers were compared to a sweat suit? Post your link on Dennis Fung's testimony about handling the sweats.

Kato was never sure what OJ was wearing, however, he thought it was a sweat suit with white piping. When did Fung testify about comparing what he handled and what Kato saw that night?

Remember, Kato got it all wrong on what Simpson was wearing to the airport. I think he said he thought it was the same sweat suit--well if that is true, then Kato would have been positive what Simpson was wearing that night.


On a Geraldo tv show Vanhatter and lang got into a big argument with Furhman about that little knife box in the bathroom. Vanhatter and Lang said
"that knife box that Furhman had been talking nonstop about had absolutely
Nothing to do with the murders" Furhman was pissed at this statement but that is what happened.

I don't know what happened to that box.The prosecution, contrary to the autopsy report claimed a 20" knife was the murder weapon until it was proven
not to have been used by the court appointed grand master.

The prosecution compared some blood collected to ojs blood at least that is what they said. But when it came to the sweats they had no sweats to compare to the fibers but wanted the jury to just trust them because they had no real proof.imo

[martin II]

Don't you think those cops were used to interacting with celebrities due to living and working where they did? There are a few celebrities who live near me and I have a real job but I don't plan on planting evidence to frame them for anything and I don't know of anyone else who would do that either.

If any evidence was manipulated it was done by Simpson and/or someone helping him out. Where is the knife from the knife box on the side of the tub? Where is the sweat suit from the washer? Where is the small bag that disappeared after his ride to the airport? Where are the Bruno Maglis he was photographed wearing 7 months before the murders?

GreenIce, I'm still waiting for the link to LE collecting and testing the sweats.


When Oj returned to Rockingham and VANHATTER was taking him to PARKER center Vanhatter is seen taking a small bag from oj and entering his car.since the other bags were in CR car what bag was that?

I think the small suspect bag had nothing but oj golf balls that he took to Chicago.The police in lax and chicago did a very good search everyplace oj had been and found no bag.five bags were returned to court.

[martin II]

Don't you think those cops were used to interacting with celebrities due to living and working where they did? There are a few celebrities who live near me and I have a real job but I don't plan on planting evidence to frame them for anything and I don't know of anyone else who would do that either.

If any evidence was manipulated it was done by Simpson and/or someone helping him out. Where is the knife from the knife box on the side of the tub? Where is the sweat suit from the washer? Where is the small bag that disappeared after his ride to the airport? Where are the Bruno Maglis he was photographed wearing 7 months before the murders?

GreenIce, I'm still waiting for the link to LE collecting and testing the sweats.

tv
one point
Vanhatter and Lang had been working detectives in and around Brentwood for their careers 20-30 years yet they claimed they had to ask Furhman to show then how to drive 5 minutes to ojs house a major celebrity in Brentwood because they did not know the area.Nonsense. It was a excuse to support what they planned to do. Just hours before Furhman had been relieved of his responsibilities in the case and should have been on his way home or someplace.imo

[martin II]

Old Soul,

Brace yourself, I agree with you. I love sports but I find that the money the players make today has ruined many of them. However, I feel the same way about actors and their pay days. I really bothers me how much it costs to go the movies--I mean I want to see the movie but I don't want to become a sponsor.

High salaries and other high cost is a result of how the u.s. economy has evolved and this seems to be beyond the reach of most of us. Sports salaries
are no higher than other professions when you look at the length of the work life. I once baught a Italian sports car and paid $5,000 it now cost $40,000.
Micky Mantel made about $100,000 his last year. Boxers use to make $15 to $30,000 a fight before Don King arrived and at one time butter used to cost five cents a stick.A seat at a Broadway play use to cost $10.00 $20.00 now it cost $75 $150.00 or more.

imo

[William Anthony]

I guess my main problem with the entire athletic scholarship issue is that back where I come from athletic scouts from universities would take these guys who excelled in sports and give them a scholarship even if they were practically flunking out of high school and didn't have the grades enough to do anything other than attend a local junior college. Once at the university, playing their sport, blind eyes were turned at the actual "education" part as long as the sport was being played. End result? These guys got a full ride and came out with no more education than they had when they arrived. But thumb the nose at those of us who worked fifty hours a week while in high school to help mom put food on the table while still maintaining a 4.0 and excelling in academics ... I sure didn't get a full ride, or even a partial one.

Sorry for the off topic rant:)

No need to apologize, as I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. Who is the actual culprit in that scenario? Can we blame athletes, who realize that they are ill equipped for other suitable work and who face the risk of injury for demanding salaries that will compensate them in case of those injuries? Just as some degrees are given due to athletic ability, some are bought by those who can afford to pay others to do their work. America remains more who you know than what you know, imho.

[William Anthony]

We also recognise the truth. It might be explained away in the courts if you have enough money or enough people who say you are innocent, but we're not stupid. If OJ was such a good guy he wouldn't be behind bars now.

You seem to mixing standards of morality with legal standards as to why he is behind bars and, as I have said, the final chapter in his saga has yet to be written. There are quite a few bad people, imho, who are not behind bars, as we await the final chapters in the sagas of Governor B. and Madoff.

[tv]

tv
one point
Vanhatter and Lang had been working detectives in and around Brentwood for their careers 20-30 years yet they claimed they had to ask Furhman to show then how to drive 5 minutes to ojs house a major celebrity in Brentwood because they did not know the area.Nonsense. It was a excuse to support what they planned to do. Just hours before Furhman had been relieved of his responsibilities in the case and should have been on his way home or someplace.imo

If you're sure that Lange and Vannatter had the addresses of all celebrities in Brentwood memorized then what do you think was their motivation for asking Fuhrman to go to Rockingham?

[tv]

When Oj returned to Rockingham and VANHATTER was taking him to PARKER center Vanhatter is seen taking a small bag from oj and entering his car.since the other bags were in CR car what bag was that?

I think the small suspect bag had nothing but oj golf balls that he took to Chicago.The police in lax and chicago did a very good search everyplace oj had been and found no bag.five bags were returned to court.I have no idea but OJ Simpson was known to carry a small bag he called a grip that he kept various items in. Why would OJ Simpson not want Kato or Alan Park to touch a bag with golf balls in it?

[tv]

On a Geraldo tv show Vanhatter and lang got into a big argument with Furhman about that little knife box in the bathroom. Vanhatter and Lang said
"that knife box that Furhman had been talking nonstop about had absolutely
Nothing to do with the murders" Furhman was pissed at this statement but that is what happened.

I don't know what happened to that box.The prosecution, contrary to the autopsy report claimed a 20" knife was the murder weapon until it was proven
not to have been used by the court appointed grand master.

The prosecution compared some blood collected to ojs blood at least that is what they said. But when it came to the sweats they had no sweats to compare to the fibers but wanted the jury to just trust them because they had no real proof.imo

martin, Vannatter and Lange and Mark Fuhrman have butted heads on what they think went wrong with the investigation which has never been a secret. V and L say things that Mark Fuhrman doesn't agree with and vice versa. Fuhrman disagrees with Vannatter carrying the blood around; they disagree about the knife and knife box and it goes on and on.

GreenIce has said the sweats were collected and tested by LE and I'm still waiting for the source for this information.

[tv]

Faye claims that Nicole wanted to give her a set of keys.A person that was freebasing in her house that was broke that had caused 'PEOPLE' to come to nicoles house that Nicole said made her nervous or she did not like.Nicole obviously suspected Faye of stealing her keys when she searched her pocketbook. So Nicole wanted to give Faye a set of keys. A drugie that she was trying to get out of her house.imo

Again oj or no other person wouild know a ket was not required to enter Nicoles property.Look at the date that the keys went missing and the last day oj was inside nicoles house. This was long before the keys went missing as he usually picked the kids up from outside the house.

martin, Nicole said her keys were missing and she suspected that OJ Simpson took them. They turned up in his possession. Nicole never said she thought Faye took the keys. Why wouldn't a key be required to enter Nicole's house?
Are you talking about the gate or the door to the house?

[tv]

I think that most people that travel a lot carry large sums of money and their passport on most trips.A passport is a legal form of ID.I carry mine whenever i leave town. The keys means nothing as far as the murders was concerned as a key was not required to enter Nicoles yard.

Don't you think Nicole locked her house and a key was required to get the door open? If her home was open for anyone to enter why would she care if a set of keys got stolen?

[old_soul]

High salaries and other high cost is a result of how the u.s. economy has evolved and this seems to be beyond the reach of most of us. Sports salaries
are no higher than other professions when you look at the length of the work life. I once baught a Italian sports car and paid $5,000 it now cost $40,000.
Micky Mantel made about $100,000 his last year. Boxers use to make $15 to $30,000 a fight before Don King arrived and at one time butter used to cost five cents a stick.A seat at a Broadway play use to cost $10.00 $20.00 now it cost $75 $150.00 or more.

imo

Martin, are you telling me that you are justifying a $100,000,000.00 salary to play sports, in the guise of 'it being business and the cost of living increase?'

Big Bucks/Idolism perpetuates a young man to go for sports, as opposed to an academic betterment. Why not aspire to study on a scholarship that will lead to a better world? Do sports offer anything more than entertaiment, justifying that kind of money?

Do you think some of the best doctors and scientists even make that kind of money? The world is in a sad state, with materialistic things being #1.
Money, Cars, Expensive homes, Opulence..........what you have isn't necessarily what you are. Case in point, many rap artists...50 Cent is still a piece of lowlife trash, as is Eminem. Are 12 cars really necessary?

This brings us full circle back to what the motivation is to becoming a sports icon, music mogul, etc. And it goes round and round. We need more than prayers for this........we need to rethink what's important in this world, and pass That on.

MOO

[martin II]

Martin, are you telling me that you are justifying a $100,000,000.00 salary to play sports, in the guise of 'it being business and the cost of living increase?'

Big Bucks/Idolism perpetuates a young man to go for sports, as opposed to an academic betterment. Why not aspire to study on a scholarship that will lead to a better world? Do sports offer anything more than entertaiment, justifying that kind of money?

Do you think some of the best doctors and scientists even make that kind of money? The world is in a sad state, with materialistic things being #1.
Money, Cars, Expensive homes, Opulence..........what you have isn't necessarily what you are. Case in point, many rap artists...50 Cent is still a piece of lowlife trash, as is Eminem. Are 12 cars really necessary?

This brings us full circle back to what the motivation is to becoming a sports icon, music mogul, etc. And it goes round and round. We need more than prayers for this........we need to rethink what's important in this world, and pass That on.

MOO

Sports is as important a part of American life as most anything else. This is evident by the number of Americans that support sports events.

Owners and sometimes cities erect large play places.Owners enjoy the ticket income and split sometimes with cities. The balance is paid to the 'ACTORS'
that cause people to pay to see and their pockets.

sports contracts are based on a owners evaluation of the number of paying tickets he needs over a season to make a profit. He also makes a evaluation
on how many more paying customers he can expect to get if he pays Alex $250,000,000 as opposed to Jim $100,000.00

The $250,000,000 is only a small portion of what the owner will get say over 10 years. So in that respect it is the owners that decide what they will pay for a player based on how many more tickets he can sell if he signs that player.

It is the same reason why Investment houses pay the same kind of money for a CEO as it is thought that they know how to make a billion or two more than the company made last year.

If the American public was not so addicted to sports and attendance dropped so would those salaries. Tv pays large sums to sports teams based on how many viewers that they can expect to get from telecasting a game and the ad revenue they can receive.That is a business just like a game is.
All of it is based on profit. That is the American way.
imo

[old_soul]

Sports is as important a part of American life as most anything else. This is evident by the number of Americans that support sports events.

Owners and sometimes cities erect large play places.Owners enjoy the ticket income and split sometimes with cities. The balance is paid to the 'ACTORS'
that cause people to pay to see and their pockets.

sports contracts are based on a owners evaluation of the number of paying tickets he needs over a season to make a profit. He also makes a evaluation
on how many more paying customers he can expect to get if he pays Alex $250,000,000 as opposed to Jim $100,000.00

The $250,000,000 is only a small portion of what the owner will get say over 10 years. So in that respect it is the owners that decide what they will pay for a player based on how many more tickets he can sell if he signs that player.

It is the same reason why Investment houses pay the same kind of money for a CEO as it is thought that they know how to make a billion or two more than the company made last year.

If the American public was not so addicted to sports and attendance dropped so would those salaries. Tv pays large sums to sports teams based on how many viewers that they can expect to get from telecasting a game and the ad revenue they can receive.That is a business just like a game is.
All of it is based on profit. That is the American way.
imo

Well said, IMO, and very true. Like I said...A Damn Shame.

I'd like to see how this new season will be. After tearing down beloved Yankee and Shea stadiums, and with what the cost of tickets are, people cannot afford to go anymore. Here in NY people are outraged about it.
It's now unaffordable, instead of season tickets, they may be able to go once in awhile.

[martin II]

Don't you think Nicole locked her house and a key was required to get the door open? If her home was open for anyone to enter why would she care if a set of keys got stolen?

tv
I said a key was not required to enter Nicoles YARD.Meaning the area where she was murdered. That back gate was not so high that one could not just climb over it.The other issue is it appears that Nicole knew the date that her keys were missing according to Faye.Yet for some time Oj had always picked up the kids from outside her property and had not been in her house for some time. Nicole knew she had her keys on a certain date and the next day she could not find them.But oj had not been in her house prior to the date she knew she had her keys or on the date she thought her keys were missing.So
when did he have the opportunity to steal her keys.I think oj had those keys long before she was murdered for emergencies or whatever or Nicole just did not remember giving them to him. But again keys were not required to get to her yard.

[martin II]

Well said, IMO, and very true. Like I said...A Damn Shame.

I'd like to see how this new season will be. After tearing down beloved Yankee and Shea stadiums, and with what the cost of tickets are, people cannot afford to go anymore. Here in NY people are outraged about it.
It's now unaffordable, instead of season tickets, they may be able to go once in awhile.


The new Yankee Stadium is not even completed and people are buying tickets even those million dollar guess boxes.The stadium will be overflowing on opening day even that high end steak resturant selling steaks at $50.00 or more a pop will be busy. People may not pay their rent or credit cards but a ticket to sports events you bet because the men that did not make it to a team can dream and they want to show their kids a path to the American way. The women, well some love the sport and others love the players.
imo

[martin II]

martin, Nicole said her keys were missing and she suspected that OJ Simpson took them. They turned up in his possession. Nicole never said she thought Faye took the keys. Why wouldn't a key be required to enter Nicole's house?
Are you talking about the gate or the door to the house?

In my post i said a key was not required to enter her YARD not her house.

tv

we only have Fays word about what nicole thought about the missing keys.If nicole did not suspect Fay then why did she search Fays pocketbook?

[martin II]

martin, Vannatter and Lange and Mark Fuhrman have butted heads on what they think went wrong with the investigation which has never been a secret. V and L say things that Mark Fuhrman doesn't agree with and vice versa. Fuhrman disagrees with Vannatter carrying the blood around; they disagree about the knife and knife box and it goes on and on.

GreenIce has said the sweats were collected and tested by LE and I'm still waiting for the source for this information.

I believe the sweats were collected and tested by le looking for a match to those bogus fibers.When there was no match i think they just put the sweats in a file cabinet or the trash and pretended that they went back looking for them in a effort to point the blame on oj for no ability to examine them for the match.imo
That is my belief.

[martin II]

I have no idea but OJ Simpson was known to carry a small bag he called a grip that he kept various items in. Why would OJ Simpson not want Kato or Alan Park to touch a bag with golf balls in it?

Vanhatter took the bag from oj at Rockingham it is on video and i had previously posted it. When oj gets to Parker center he had his grip, that he carried papers etc in with him as he talked about it in the interview and showed it to Vanhatter. Oj said something about the bags he took and he mentioned a grip, vanhatter asked him where was that bag and oj said right there. what was in the bag that Vanhatter took from Oj at Rockingham and is seen putting in his car?

[tv]

TV,

Like I posted before, many people pass on their morals and ethics on the state's witnesses. They are given credibily because we think if we were cops, we would never do this.

I agree with you that if Simpson is the killer, he had help---before he left for LA. Since he gave the murder weapon, shoes, clothes, to his accomplice then the issue of how many bags or which bag Simpson told Kato he would get is completely nullified. He knew that those items would not be found on his property.

In regards to the knife box on the tub, well wasn't that a pocket knife or something similar? And I don't where the knife box went, it could have been collected as evidence--we don't know.

I know Fuhrman said that the pocket knife could have the murder weapon, so he was the only one in the world who knew this? He gave his theory to the DA's or the LAPD?


I believe I posted what I read in a book, the sweats were taken but no blood was found on them. Where is your link that they were not collected and tested? Where is your link that the fibers were compared to a sweat suit? Post your link on Dennis Fung's testimony about handling the sweats.

Kato was never sure what OJ was wearing, however, he thought it was a sweat suit with white piping. When did Fung testify about comparing what he handled and what Kato saw that night?

Remember, Kato got it all wrong on what Simpson was wearing to the airport. I think he said he thought it was the same sweat suit--well if that is true, then Kato would have been positive what Simpson was wearing that night.
GreenIce, we normally don't post links to what is considered common knowledge. It's common knowledge and accepted as fact that the sweats were not collected. You posted as fact that they were collected so the burden is on you to provide the proof.

[martin II]

I have no idea but OJ Simpson was known to carry a small bag he called a grip that he kept various items in. Why would OJ Simpson not want Kato or Alan Park to touch a bag with golf balls in it?

Golfers are strange people. only caddies or themselves handle their golf balls.Bad luck to do other wise. Same is true for oj going to get his golf clubs from the airport before they got lost or stolem. a set of clubs can cost upwards of $10,000 grand.A Ping driver can cost $5,000.0 or more.I did not find it strange that he told them no i will get that bag.

[William Anthony]

Martin, are you telling me that you are justifying a $100,000,000.00 salary to play sports, in the guise of 'it being business and the cost of living increase?'

Big Bucks/Idolism perpetuates a young man to go for sports, as opposed to an academic betterment. Why not aspire to study on a scholarship that will lead to a better world? Do sports offer anything more than entertaiment, justifying that kind of money?

Do you think some of the best doctors and scientists even make that kind of money? The world is in a sad state, with materialistic things being #1.
Money, Cars, Expensive homes, Opulence..........what you have isn't necessarily what you are. Case in point, many rap artists...50 Cent is still a piece of lowlife trash, as is Eminem. Are 12 cars really necessary?

This brings us full circle back to what the motivation is to becoming a sports icon, music mogul, etc. And it goes round and round. We need more than prayers for this........we need to rethink what's important in this world, and pass That on.

MOO

Does this mean that you favor socialism over capitalism? Would that deter from the respect we give to doctors and sports figures?

[tv]

Vanhatter took the bag from oj at Rockingham it is on video and i had previously posted it. When oj gets to Parker center he had his grip, that he carried papers etc in with him as he talked about it in the interview and showed it to Vanhatter. Oj said something about the bags he took and he mentioned a grip, vanhatter asked him where was that bag and oj said right there. what was in the bag that Vanhatter took from Oj at Rockingham and is seen putting in his car?Are you talking about the bag belonging to OJ Simpson that was taken from Al Cowling's Bronco?

[tv]

In my post i said a key was not required to enter her YARD not her house.

tv

we only have Fays word about what nicole thought about the missing keys.If nicole did not suspect Fay then why did she search Fays pocketbook?
martin, the key that was missing was to the gate and the key that was found in Simpson's bag was a key to the gate. Who said she searched Faye's pocketbook?

[martin II]

Are you talking about the bag belonging to OJ Simpson that was taken from Al Cowling's Bronco?

No i am talking about the bag that Vanhatter took from oj on the day when oj returned from chicago on 6/13 just before Vanhatter took oj to Parker center to be interviewed. Vanhatter is seen at Rockingham talking to oj and another le person. Oj hands vanhatter the bag and they both get into vanhatters car. vanhatter has the bag when he get in his car. I have this video some place in my external memory if you insist on seeing it.But it may take me some time to find it.It was posted here and on other internet sites.

[martin II]

martin, the key that was missing was to the gate and the key that was found in Simpson's bag was a key to the gate. Who said she searched Faye's pocketbook?

It was reported and posted here that Nicole searched Fays bag when she took her to rehab. I thought that Nicoles keys opened the gates and the house. one key fits all locks very convient and all that is required in the cylinders be the same.

But it still does not matter as no key was required to get over that back gate or the front gate for that matter.

[tv]

It was reported and posted here that Nicole searched Fays bag when she took her to rehab. I thought that Nicoles keys opened the gates and the house. one key fits all locks very convient and all that is required in the cylinders be the same.

But it still does not matter as no key was required to get over that back gate or the front gate for that matter.

The key is only important because OJ Simpson took it. It shows he had some intent to use it to gain entrance. I realize that he could get in without it. Also, maybe he thought it was a key to the front door. Who knows?

[tv]

No i am talking about the bag that Vanhatter took from oj on the day when oj returned from chicago on 6/13 just before Vanhatter took oj to Parker center to be interviewed. Vanhatter is seen at Rockingham talking to oj and another le person. Oj hands vanhatter the bag and they both get into vanhatters car. vanhatter has the bag when he get in his car. I have this video some place in my external memory if you insist on seeing it.But it may take me some time to find it.It was posted here and on other internet sites.
I don't know what bag is was but I'm pretty sure that Simpson had his grip at Parker center. Maybe Vannatter put it in the car and then gave it back to him when they were finished. From what I've read it was with him most of the time. The grip was taken from Al Cowling's vehicle on June 17 and all the items in it catologued.

[tv]

No i am talking about the bag that Vanhatter took from oj on the day when oj returned from chicago on 6/13 just before Vanhatter took oj to Parker center to be interviewed. Vanhatter is seen at Rockingham talking to oj and another le person. Oj hands vanhatter the bag and they both get into vanhatters car. vanhatter has the bag when he get in his car. I have this video some place in my external memory if you insist on seeing it.But it may take me some time to find it.It was posted here and on other internet sites.Thank you for offering to post the video but if you say that's what is on it I believe you. :)

[martin II]

The key is only important because OJ Simpson took it. It shows he had some intent to use it to gain entrance. I realize that he could get in without it. Also, maybe he thought it was a key to the front door. Who knows?

the keys.


Lange and Vannatter obtained a key from Cora Fischman, Nicole's neighborhood friend who kept a key for emergencies. It was one key that fit "all of the residential doors at Nicole Brown's home, as well as her front gate," according to Lange and Vannatter. We will presume that it would fit her back gate, too, but there is no explicit statement of this in the references. Using Fischman's key, the detectives commissioned a locksmith to construct an exemplar lock that key would open. Then, they tried Simpson's key in that lock, and it opened. From this, the detectives concluded that the keys recovered from Cowlings Bronco on the 17th contained one to Nicole's place. Ron Egan assures me that he is familiar with the process of making an exemplar lock, and it is a reliable way to compare keys.

So, on June 17th Simpson had a key that would open Nicole's gates and one presumes that he also had that key on the 12th, since one can only think of the most bizarre ways in which he would have acquired it between the 12th and the 17th. (According to Petrocelli, Simpson himself (sort of) claimed that he got it from Cowlings, who had helped Lou Brown clean out the condo after the murders. That is, I think an example of a bizarre explanation.) If he executed a deliberate plan to murder Nicole on the night of the 12th, I can not imagine that he would not have used the key, and entered her property by unlocking and walking through the back gate.

On the other hand, if as I believe, Simpson was lured to the Bundy location by an unexpected but urgent phone call at 10:20 on the night of the 12th, he would have gone without any pre-planning. He would have grabbed what he thought he needed and flown. If the key was already in his pocket when he arrived at Bundy -- and if he realized he had it -- he would
have used it.

But, the details of the missing key story are weird. The tale on pps 210 and 211 of Lange and Vannatter's book and footnote #106 say: According to her housekeeper, Nicole kept her keys -- house keys and car keys -- on a peg in the kitchen, and found them missing from there on the 4th or 5th. (Simpson's last visit that we know of, and at which time he did not enter the house, was on the 5th. Resnick started living there on the 3rd, although this is misstated in L&V.) Those keys were apparently still missing on the night of the 8th when Nicole searched Faye's purse at the intervention session on Mulholland. Juditha Brown (according to L&V) says that Nicole told her "an extra set of two keys" was missing. This is somewhat different than the set of all of Nicole's personal keys. Then Vannatter and Lange tell us that what they found in the recovered items from the Bronco after the low speed chase was "a second set of two keys," which is similar to the description given by Juditha Brown, and different from the description given by Nicole's housekeeper ("keys on a peg in the kitchen.") Petrocelli's description (p. 537) is slightly different, the police recovered "[the key, singular] on its Smokey the Bear key ring, in his bag.) Finally, in her book, Resnick tells a somewhat different story yet (from a drug hazed recollection, I am sure) that there were four keys to the condo; she accounts for three of them, and says that the spare was kept in the drawer of a front hall table, and that was missing when Nicole wanted to give it to her during her stay.

[tv]

the keys.


Lange and Vannatter obtained a key from Cora Fischman, Nicole's neighborhood friend who kept a key for emergencies. It was one key that fit "all of the residential doors at Nicole Brown's home, as well as her front gate," according to Lange and Vannatter. We will presume that it would fit her back gate, too, but there is no explicit statement of this in the references. Using Fischman's key, the detectives commissioned a locksmith to construct an exemplar lock that key would open. Then, they tried Simpson's key in that lock, and it opened. From this, the detectives concluded that the keys recovered from Cowlings Bronco on the 17th contained one to Nicole's place. Ron Egan assures me that he is familiar with the process of making an exemplar lock, and it is a reliable way to compare keys.

So, on June 17th Simpson had a key that would open Nicole's gates and one presumes that he also had that key on the 12th, since one can only think of the most bizarre ways in which he would have acquired it between the 12th and the 17th. (According to Petrocelli, Simpson himself (sort of) claimed that he got it from Cowlings, who had helped Lou Brown clean out the condo after the murders. That is, I think an example of a bizarre explanation.) If he executed a deliberate plan to murder Nicole on the night of the 12th, I can not imagine that he would not have used the key, and entered her property by unlocking and walking through the back gate.

On the other hand, if as I believe, Simpson was lured to the Bundy location by an unexpected but urgent phone call at 10:20 on the night of the 12th, he would have gone without any pre-planning. He would have grabbed what he thought he needed and flown. If the key was already in his pocket when he arrived at Bundy -- and if he realized he had it -- he would
have used it.

But, the details of the missing key story are weird. The tale on pps 210 and 211 of Lange and Vannatter's book and footnote #106 say: According to her housekeeper, Nicole kept her keys -- house keys and car keys -- on a peg in the kitchen, and found them missing from there on the 4th or 5th. (Simpson's last visit that we know of, and at which time he did not enter the house, was on the 5th. Resnick started living there on the 3rd, although this is misstated in L&V.) Those keys were apparently still missing on the night of the 8th when Nicole searched Faye's purse at the intervention session on Mulholland. Juditha Brown (according to L&V) says that Nicole told her "an extra set of two keys" was missing. This is somewhat different than the set of all of Nicole's personal keys. Then Vannatter and Lange tell us that what they found in the recovered items from the Bronco after the low speed chase was "a second set of two keys," which is similar to the description given by Juditha Brown, and different from the description given by Nicole's housekeeper ("keys on a peg in the kitchen.") Petrocelli's description (p. 537) is slightly different, the police recovered "[the key, singular] on its Smokey the Bear key ring, in his bag.) Finally, in her book, Resnick tells a somewhat different story yet (from a drug hazed recollection, I am sure) that there were four keys to the condo; she accounts for three of them, and says that the spare was kept in the drawer of a front hall table, and that was missing when Nicole wanted to give it to her during her stay.

Thank you, martin, but my belief is that Simpson took the key from Nicole's home so he could have more control over her when he felt like it. It looks like the key came up missing when Nicole looked for it to give it to Faye. That makes perfect sense to me.

[martin II]

I don't know what bag is was but I'm pretty sure that Simpson had his grip at Parker center. Maybe Vannatter put it in the car and then gave it back to him when they were finished. From what I've read it was with him most of the time. The grip was taken from Al Cowling's vehicle on June 17 and all the items in it catologued.

Vanhatter took the bag from oj and oj was standing with his grip.

If vanhatter took ojs grip from him and not the other bag, why did vanhatter at parker center when oj spoke of his grip did vanhatter seem surprised and asked oj were is this grip and oj said righ here i assume he showed the grip to vanhatter then.If i run across the video i will give it to you.

[martin II]

Thank you, martin, but my belief is that Simpson took the key from Nicole's home so he could have more control over her when he felt like it. It looks like the key came up missing when Nicole looked for it to give it to Faye. That makes perfect sense to me.

TV

Nicole was trying to get faye and her freebasing broke butt out of her house.
Not give her more access. Remember nicole told Cora that the people that were comming to her house to see Faye made her nervous and she did not like them. Faye was using big time for some time and had no cash as her ex had cut her off and she had no job. I would not find it strange that she had been hitting Nicole up for drug cash daily and Nicole decided that she had to go. Funny thing is that when Faye realized that she had to go to drug rehab it is reported that she told Nicole she would go if Nicole went with her.imo

[martin II]

Tv
thanks for that little titbit about Furhman not agreeing with Vanhatter carrying ojs blood around.I guess Vanhatter was not pleased with some of what Furhman did.


I had always felt in my gut that Vanhatter and lang were not pleased with something Furhman did that gave the case problems or made it harder to prove.Maby both did wrong. but i was shocked at the live tv at how they went at each other. Vanhatter in his voice showed major disdain for Furhman and Lang showed the same or more. Treated Furhman as if he was nothing and Furhman was about to come through the tv at them.
imo
I was also shocked then Vanhatter shot major holes in Clarks claim that oj jumped the south fence where the glove was found. I think Vanhatter and Furhman should have been angry at Clarke.

[fgump2]

A killer did not need a key to get to Nicoles yard. All one would have to do is climb over that back gate and he would be in.


It would have been an advantage for OJS to have a key if he was up to no good. Climbing over a wall would possibly call attention to the person doing the climbing. If OJS was planning on even the possibililtly of slashing tires or throats, he would not have wanted to do anything that would cause people to notice him. I thought the walls and gates were at least shoulder height.

[martin II]

It would have been an advantage for OJS to have a key if he was up to no good. Climbing over a wall would possibly call attention to the person doing the climbing. If OJS was planning on even the possibililtly of slashing tires or throats, he would not have wanted to do anything that would cause people to notice him. I thought the walls and gates were at least shoulder height.

I have not spoke of any wall. Maby you are confused with Furhman jumpimg over ojs wall at Rockingham. I know nothing of oj slashing tires. Neither gate was a problem for a professional killer to get over.

[fgump2]

fgump2,

I totally agree with you, that one statement about he was the only one who deserved to be hurt. The DA's didn't use this in their case, why? First off, we do not know about the all phone calls Simpson made in the Bronco nor do we know if the full transcript of Lange and Simpson has been released.

I do remember the media saying that Simpson never once accused the police in planting evidence or trying to frame him for the murders. However, later some of Simpson's conversations were leaked and in at least one phone call to his mother, he did say that he was being framed.

Simpson had every right to believe that he was being framed for the murders during the Bronco chase, but why, at that time, would he think the police did it? We also know that the media were reporting about a blood ski mask, etc., Simpson had no way of knowing if what was reported was true or not. If he didn't kill Nicole--then why would he believe all the press reports about what was found or not found?

And again, you have to ask why the state didn't use this statement, that had to be a reason and saying that the reason the DA's didn't use it because it was self-serving. Well does that really surprise anyone? The DA's were going to open a door that they would never be able to close, IMO.

I have to totally disagree with you about grieving people not caring with others think. Mr. Simpson's fame did not make it harder on him to be accused of killing his wife then anyone else. Mr. Simpson, like anyone else accused of murder has to worry about what people think of them. They need to know this to prepare the trial--IMO.
*********************************************
Two points. First of all I have sometimes become angry when people made accusations against me, even when I didn't know the reasons why they were making the accusations. I have become angry even when I knew the reasons were partly logical. I would certainly angry if I was arrested for a murder I didn't commit. A frame up isn't the only reason to become angry. A person can become angry about incompetence.

If Simpson was innocent, there are two people he should have been angry at: the killer, and the police for making false accusations.

I think the prosecutors made a mistake in not entering both Simpson's original police interview, and also what he said in the low speed bronco chase. If there was something in any way exculpating about either situation, someone would have pointed it out by now. Darden and Clark were afraid of the predominately black jury. They seemed to think that hearing any recording in which OJS claimed innocence would doom the case. I think that was way off the mark. If the jury was that biased, the case was doomed anyway. I think the jury was racially biased, but not by that much

[fgump2]

Ummmmmmmm I don't think you read my post. The keys were on a specific key chain. The ones that she said were stolen. She was worried. Found on him in the Bronco, with the $8,000, the passport etc. He even admitted they were hers.

Got it?

I thought the most incriminating item was a disguise, fake beard I think. OJS bought this a week or so after Nicole told him it was over. If he had disguises before, it wouldn't mean a lot. Even if he had used fake beards before, it does indicate that he was thinking about running, which was somewhat incriminating.

[fgump2]

I have not spoke of any wall. Maby you are confused with Furhman jumpimg over ojs wall at Rockingham. I know nothing of oj slashing tires. Neither gate was a problem for a professional killer to get over.


I thought there was a wall. It is unusual to have a gate without a wall. Professional killers don't like to draw attnetion to themselves, which climbing over a gate or wall would, as would leaving one or more gloves at a crime scene, or wearing shoes that left unusual foot prints. If there was no wall, it would be less attention gathering to just walk around it.

I thought Nicole either told friends, or wrote in her diary, that when OJS was angry at her, her tires would often be slashed. She was never able to prove this, but she felt this way. I have no links for this.

[martin II]

10/18/96 - 07:40 PM ET - Click reload often for latest version
Jurors say acquittals were based on lack of evidence
When they finally got down to it, jurors in O.J. Simpson's murder trial said, their decision wasn't about race, domestic violence or Simpson's stature. It was about a lack of evidence.

Lionel Cryer remembers thinking deliberations would be lengthy, especially when he saw an overburdened evidence cart being wheeled into the jury's deliberation room.

Less than five hours later, counting the lunch break, the 10 women and two men who lived under guard for nine months were united.

Simpson was acquitted.

Panelist Brenda Moran doesn't think they decided a moment too soon.

"We've taken this case serious for nine months," she told reporters Oct. 4, 1995, the day after Simpson's acquittal was announced. "It didn't take us nine more months to figure it out. We're not that ignorant."

Since declaring Simpson innocent of killing his ex-wife Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman, about half the 12 jurors have spoken publicly about their decision. All are in seclusion, fielding a barrage of interview requests, some of them from tabloids reportedly offering up to $100,000.

Common themes in their statements thus far: evidence, specifically the lack of it, and witnesses, specifically their lack of credibility.

From the moment they left Judge Lance Ito's courtroom on Sept. 29, 1995, the jurors didn't spend a lot of time second-guessing themselves.

It took them just three minutes to choose a forewoman.

The next workday was the following Monday.

Clerk Deirdre Robertson wheeled in a cart heavy with bound trial exhibits. "This is going to take a long time," Cryer remembered thinking.

He was wrong.

At 10 a.m., Cryer told the Los Angeles Times, they took a straw vote. It was 10-2 in favor of acquittal. One of the two negative votes came from a 61-year-old white woman, Anise Aschenbach, who would later tearfully say that while Simpson may be guilty, the evidence didn't prove it.

The other dissenter has not been identified.

When deliberations began, everyone spoke at once, said Sheila Woods, a 39-year-old health inspector.

"I guess they were so full over the nine months with things to say, that everyone just started kind of talking at the same time," Woods said in an ABC "Nightline" interview broadcast Sept. 29, 1995.

After the straw vote, some questions were still unresolved. Forewoman Amanda Cooley, 51, sent a note asking for the testimony of limo driver Allan Park to be read back.

Among the questions that jurors said troubled them:

Where, exactly, did Park see a shadowy figure at Simpson's estate?
What was that unidentified person wearing?
How many cars were in the driveway?
While waiting for the reading, they voted again. Now it was unanimous. As for the initial holdouts, Woods said, "I think what they did, they listened to the other 10 explain why they thought there was reasonable doubt, and then in the next vote, it was a 12 unanimous not guilty (decision)."

The volatile issues of racism and domestic violence did not sway them, Woods said.

After hearing Park's testimony read back in court, jurors returned to the deliberation room and spent only a few minutes concluding his answers were contradictory.

They sent a note asking for verdict slips. Forewoman Cooley filled them out.

After they filed back into the courtroom, Ito ordered their verdicts sealed until Oct. 3, 1995 to give all trial attorneys time to return to court.

Monday night, jurors packed and had a little party at the downtown Inter-Continental Hotel, where they had lived since Jan. 11.

On Oct. 3, 1995, their verdicts were read.

Aschenbach, in an ABC telephone interview last week, tearfully explained why she changed her original guilty vote.

Lead detective Philip Vannatter "made misstatements" on the witness stand, she said. Former detective Mark Fuhrman, discredited as a lying racist, cast too much doubt on the most prized evidence - a bloody glove found on Simpson's estate.

"I thought it was possible it was planted," Aschenbach said. "And most of the evidence was DNA evidence and that's what was so shaky."

Moran dismissed the trial issue of domestic violence.

"This was a murder trial, not domestic abuse," Moran said. "If you want to get tried for domestic abuse, go in another courtroom and get tried for that."

Gina Rosborough, a 29-year-old postal worker, voiced her opinion on Oprah Winfrey's syndicated talk show "If he committed such a bloody crime, then there should have been more blood in that Bronco that this just little speck that we saw."

Beatrice Wilson, 72, said in a brief telephone interview with The Associated Press that jurors did not rush to judgment. "We was in there nine months," she said. "All the whole time we was there we had plenty of time to think."

[martin II]

I thought the most incriminating item was a disguise, fake beard I think. OJS bought this a week or so after Nicole told him it was over. If he had disguises before, it wouldn't mean a lot. Even if he had used fake beards before, it does indicate that he was thinking about running, which was somewhat incriminating.

it was stated that oj had the beard as he used it i think it was KNOX FARM
where he took his kids so as a not to recognized.

If oj drove up in the model Bronco with that loud muffler at night he was not worried about anyone seeing him.imo

[martin II]

I thought there was a wall. It is unusual to have a gate without a wall. Professional killers don't like to draw attnetion to themselves, which climbing over a gate or wall would, as would leaving one or more gloves at a crime scene, or wearing shoes that left unusual foot prints. If there was no wall, it would be less attention gathering to just walk around it.

I thought Nicole either told friends, or wrote in her diary, that when OJS was angry at her, her tires would often be slashed. She was never able to prove this, but she felt this way. I have no links for this.


Why do you say it was unusual to have a gate and no wall. I know of many gates attatched to metal fences.

[martin II]

I thought there was a wall. It is unusual to have a gate without a wall. Professional killers don't like to draw attnetion to themselves, which climbing over a gate or wall would, as would leaving one or more gloves at a crime scene, or wearing shoes that left unusual foot prints. If there was no wall, it would be less attention gathering to just walk around it.

I thought Nicole either told friends, or wrote in her diary, that when OJS was angry at her, her tires would often be slashed. She was never able to prove this, but she felt this way. I have no links for this.

Well i think it would take a professional about 3-4 seconds to muscle up and over a gate the size of Nicoles back gate. AT 10 ;30 in that alley. No problem.

[William Anthony]

*********************************************
Two points. First of all I have sometimes become angry when people made accusations against me, even when I didn't know the reasons why they were making the accusations. I have become angry even when I knew the reasons were partly logical. I would certainly angry if I was arrested for a murder I didn't commit. A frame up isn't the only reason to become angry. A person can become angry about incompetence.

If Simpson was innocent, there are two people he should have been angry at: the killer, and the police for making false accusations.

I think the prosecutors made a mistake in not entering both Simpson's original police interview, and also what he said in the low speed bronco chase. If there was something in any way exculpating about either situation, someone would have pointed it out by now. Darden and Clark were afraid of the predominately black jury. They seemed to think that hearing any recording in which OJS claimed innocence would doom the case. I think that was way off the mark. If the jury was that biased, the case was doomed anyway. I think the jury was racially biased, but not by that much

What percentage do you think they were racially biased? :)

[William Anthony]

I thought the most incriminating item was a disguise, fake beard I think. OJS bought this a week or so after Nicole told him it was over. If he had disguises before, it wouldn't mean a lot. Even if he had used fake beards before, it does indicate that he was thinking about running, which was somewhat incriminating.

I had never thought of this. Any celebrity who purchases a disguise is contemplating murder and escape.

[fgump2]

Why do you say it was unusual to have a gate and no wall. I know of many gates attatched to metal fences.

A fence is almost the same thing as a wall. Not much difference for this case.

[fgump2]

I had never thought of this. Any celebrity who purchases a disguise is contemplating murder and escape.


This would not be one of the stronger pieces of evidence, but it is evidence. I think in a lot of murder convictions, there is web of evidence, with no two or three pieces of evidence enough to convict. To believe in the innocence of OJS we have to buy into a whole lot of coincidences. It should certainly arouse suspicion.

In any case evidence that he was planning to run is evidence of guilt, even if it is far from conclusive. If the prosecution had entered the disguise as evidence, it would have helped OJS to show that he had used and bought disguises for innocent purposes.

I am annoyed by the fact that many Orenthal apologists are so quick to made accusations against the police (no room for memory errors, they must by lying!), but so reluctant to see fault in OJS.

[fgump2]

What percentage do you think they were racially biased? :)

I don't know. I believe that most studies show that people on juries discriminate in favor of their own race, and then deny it afterwards.

I am not in a position to contradict this. What percentage of either the police or the civil (1996 I think) jury were racially biased?

[fgump2]

Well i think it would take a professional about 3-4 seconds to muscle up and over a gate the size of Nicoles back gate. AT 10 ;30 in that alley. No problem.


You are ignoring my point that people engaged in illegal activities try to avoid doing things that might cause people to notice them. Obviously slashing tires or people would get attention, but the criminal wants to avoid any extra attention (especially just before the illegal act). Also if OJS was more like Tarzans grandfather(on the inside) than like Tarzan, he would want to avoid the extra exertion.

[William Anthony]

This would not be one of the stronger pieces of evidence, but it is evidence. I think in a lot of murder convictions, there is web of evidence, with no two or three pieces of evidence enough to convict. To believe in the innocence of OJS we have to buy into a whole lot of coincidences. It should certainly arouse suspicion.

In any case evidence that he was planning to run is evidence of guilt, even if it is far from conclusive. If the prosecution had entered the disguise as evidence, it would have helped OJS to show that he had used and bought disguises for innocent purposes.

I am annoyed by the fact that many Orenthal apologists are so quick to made accusations against the police (no room for memory errors, they must by lying!), but so reluctant to see fault in OJS.

Ah, you must not have been reading here long as those who think Simpson guilty were always saying that LE made human errors or mistakes or told irrelevant lies but those who offered testimony in support of Simpson and his lawyer, well the magnificent one, were liars.

I think the disguise could have been used as evidence of flight to avoid prosecution but he was not charged with that. I think that there are abundances of different reactions by someone in those circumstances and there was no sufficient evidence to show he intended to flee, which is why he was not charged.

[William Anthony]

I don't know. I believe that most studies show that people on juries discriminate in favor of their own race, and then deny it afterwards.

I am not in a position to contradict this. What percentage of either the police or the civil (1996 I think) jury were racially biased?

I will have to look to try and find these studies. I don't know but I do know that the law was constructed to allow for Batson challenges due to the fact that Blacks had been excluded from juries because of their race and there have been studies on racial profiling as it pertains to LE.

[martin II]

You are ignoring my point that people engaged in illegal activities try to avoid doing things that might cause people to notice them. Obviously slashing tires or people would get attention, but the criminal wants to avoid any extra attention (especially just before the illegal act). Also if OJS was more like Tarzans grandfather(on the inside) than like Tarzan, he would want to avoid the extra exertion.

I know of no testimony in either trial that oj slashed nicoles car tires So really dont understand why you are making a issue of your claim. Well if oj drove his bronco to nicoles house and waited until she came out. he was not concerned about it been seen.

So are you saying that oj would not have wanted to hop over the gate for fear of exertion but he was not fearful of exertion in the act of killing nicole.?
hahaha:cool:

[martin II]

A fence is almost the same thing as a wall. Not much difference for this case.

A metal fence is made of verticle metal roods with metal horizontal bars, A wall is made of solid cement or bricks.

[martin II]

This would not be one of the stronger pieces of evidence, but it is evidence. I think in a lot of murder convictions, there is web of evidence, with no two or three pieces of evidence enough to convict. To believe in the innocence of OJS we have to buy into a whole lot of coincidences. It should certainly arouse suspicion.

In any case evidence that he was planning to run is evidence of guilt, even if it is far from conclusive. If the prosecution had entered the disguise as evidence, it would have helped OJS to show that he had used and bought disguises for innocent purposes.

I am annoyed by the fact that many Orenthal apologists are so quick to made accusations against the police (no room for memory errors, they must by lying!), but so reluctant to see fault in OJS.


Look

Oj went from his lawyers house to nicoles grave.Could not visit because of le.
Parked and talked with AC for some minutes then got on the highway that led back to his house. If his idea was to flee say to the nearest country he should have been on the highway due south to San Diago to Mexico. Based on what we know he did not what you may think he did tell me what he did to prove that he was fleeing to anyplace.imo

[martin II]

I thought there was a wall. It is unusual to have a gate without a wall. Professional killers don't like to draw attnetion to themselves, which climbing over a gate or wall would, as would leaving one or more gloves at a crime scene, or wearing shoes that left unusual foot prints. If there was no wall, it would be less attention gathering to just walk around it.

I thought Nicole either told friends, or wrote in her diary, that when OJS was angry at her, her tires would often be slashed. She was never able to prove this, but she felt this way. I have no links for this.

Walk around what? You think people put up a gate without a fence or wall attatched?? So one can just walk around the gate onto the property??I hope that is not what you are suggesting.