Random Discussions On The Case

[GreenIce]

Yes. The Brown's personal phone records were none of the Johnson Brothers' business.

The criminal trial was done and Simpson had been found not guilty. OJ had legal representation who, because of their standing in the case, had copies of the phone records. The defense team did not move to have the phone bill itself entered into evidence; that was their choice. They did not contest the prosecution's presentation and chose to stipulate to what the records said. It's done all the time. Its hard to argue with their strategy - after all, they "won".

Serpentsfall,

IMO, I think the Browns would have been in a win-win situation. First off, the phone records did not support the claim, then this would have helped them in the custody case.

I know the Browns hate Simpson and even if they did not believe he killed her, I can see where they still could hate him from the very depths of their heart. However, I would like to believe if that if there was this phone call at this time, then it at least they would be able to find some relief that the man they have known for 17 years and treated like a son, their beloved grandchildren's father did not kill their daughter. I still see them blaming him for her death but I would think they would find a tad of relief that when they looked at that grandchildren, it would just be a tad eaiser.

Also, I have never been able to find out Nicole's telephone records were.

[weezer]

the portion of the telephone record that was relevant to the time period, was stipulated to by both the defense and the prosecution. the telephone record was given to the jury. there has never been two telephone records. what calls came in and out of the Browns home before and/or after the murders is nobody's business but the Browns.

[martin II]

Yes. The Brown's personal phone records were none of the Johnson Brothers' business.

The criminal trial was done and Simpson had been found not guilty. OJ had legal representation who, because of their standing in the case, had copies of the phone records. The defense team did not move to have the phone bill itself entered into evidence; that was their choice. They did not contest the prosecution's presentation and chose to stipulate to what the records said. It's done all the time. Its hard to argue with their strategy - after all, they "won".

BH took some phone records home.why?

if there was not 11 pm call what was the problem.

[tv]

I'm still looking for the multiple times she made the statement. :shrug:

I've been had again. Instead of checking to make sure Juditha really did say it more than once I took it as fact. Whether she did or not doesn't matter since both sides stipulated to the phone records.

[tv]

Autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson :

Anatomical Summary:

I. Incised wound of neck:

A. Transection of left and right common carotid arteries.

B. Incisions, left and right internal jugular veins

C. Transection of thyrohyoid membrane, epiglottis, and hypopharynx.

D. Incision into cervical spine, C3.

II. Multiple stab wound of neck and scalp (total of seven).

III. Multiple injuries of hands, including incised wound, ring finger of
right hand (defense wound).

IV. Scalp bruise, right parietal.

No slashed breasts, alleged or otherwise.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cas45.htm

[weezer]

February 1995, during the criminal trial, Shapiro stipulated to 9:37 p.m. and Leonard made the same stipulation during the civil trial.

[serpentsfall]

Serpentsfall,

IMO, I think the Browns would have been in a win-win situation. First off, the phone records did not support the claim, then this would have helped them in the custody case.

I know the Browns hate Simpson and even if they did not believe he killed her, I can see where they still could hate him from the very depths of their heart. However, I would like to believe if that if there was this phone call at this time, then it at least they would be able to find some relief that the man they have known for 17 years and treated like a son, their beloved grandchildren's father did not kill their daughter. I still see them blaming him for her death but I would think they would find a tad of relief that when they looked at that grandchildren, it would just be a tad eaiser.

Also, I have never been able to find out Nicole's telephone records were.

How do you know the Browns (Juditha and Lou) hate Simpson? Even if they believe he killed their daughter, they don't have to love or hate the man. At some point, for the sake of their grandkids, they have had to make some kind of peace or truce with him. If they could have shown him innocent, don't you think they would have done so for their grandkids' sake? The custody battle wasn't necessarily about proving him "guilty" of murder - it was about the best interests of the children. They never even sought to prove him guilty of Nicole's murder in the civil trial.

Isn't it just as likely that Lou Brown just didn't like the Johnson brothers? If some stranger knocked on your door and asked for a copy of YOUR personal phone records would you voluntarily turn them over? The Browns apparently at least listened to the Johnsons' spiel, but must have figured out the Johnsons weren't actually working for OJ. The Browns weren't going to "win" anything by being right; all they stood to do would be tick OJ off by opening a closed can of worms.

[weezer]

I think I've figured out why big ben couldn't get the drive time right. He didn't know where they lived!

". . .There exists a discrepancy between the time that Clark and Petrocelli statedJuditha made the phone calls back to Brentwood from her home in Dana Potate, and the time it would take the Browns to drive from Brentwood to Dana Potate. . ."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:LdesMDZ3wvYJ:www.webtrendsnetwork.c om/ojcoverup/files/civil_petition_for_gte_records.pdf+simpson,+court+ gave+hodgmen+brown+telephone+records&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[tv]

I think I've figured out why big ben couldn't get the drive time right. He didn't know where they lived!

". . .There exists a discrepancy between the time that Clark and Petrocelli statedJuditha made the phone calls back to Brentwood from her home in Dana Potate, and the time it would take the Browns to drive from Brentwood to Dana Potate. . ."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:LdesMDZ3wvYJ:www.webtrendsnetwork.c om/ojcoverup/files/civil_petition_for_gte_records.pdf+simpson,+court+ gave+hodgmen+brown+telephone+records&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

How about the 'twenty-tee volumes' of Simpson's criminal file? :tongue:

According to Big Ben when he was posting here Simpson and his attorney's weren't interested in the phone records. I think that would be enough to make me give up but apparently not the Johnson brothers.

[serpentsfall]

BH took some phone records home.why?

if there was not 11 pm call what was the problem.

The case was over, Simpson won, so there would be no criminal re-trial in the future. The Court had no use for the records. Do you think they have endless storage capacity? They had a hearing about the Court keeping the documents until the pending the civil action was over. After that action was over the judge released documents to both the prosecution and the defense. Nobody seems to be asking what the defense did with their documents.

There wasn't a problem. There was just somebody making something out of nothing in the hope of making a buck off of OJ Simpson.

[weezer]

The case was over, Simpson won, so there would be no criminal re-trial in the future. The Court had no use for the records. Do you think they have endless storage capacity? They had a hearing about the Court keeping the documents until the pending the civil action was over. After that action was over the judge released documents to both the prosecution and the defense. Nobody seems to be asking what the defense did with their documents.

There wasn't a problem. There was just somebody making something out of nothing in the hope of making a buck off of OJ Simpson.

I've wondered what the defense did with their copies --

[weezer]

anyone know what time the criminal jury began deliberations?

[tv]

anyone know what time the criminal jury began deliberations?

According to Lange and Vannatter it was 9:16 AM.

There's been some discussion about the jurors packing up before deliberations and some posters have said the jurors were instructed by the court to pack up. What the posters failed to mention was Judge Ito directed the jury to pack up AFTER they announced they'd reached a verdict not BEFORE.

[weezer]

so they began deliberations @ 9:16a; were back in court for Park's testimony reading @ 1:07 - 2p; 2:17p received verdict forms and resumed deliberations; 2:51p back in court with a verdict, all the forms filled out, envelope sealed.

anyone know what time they had lunch and for how long?

[weezer]

this is the proceeding held after the trial in which Mr. Douglas declared the defense did not want any of the exhibits, etc., except for those paid for by orenthal.

http://walraven.org/simpson/oct02-31.html

[tv]

so they began deliberations @ 9:16a; were back in court for Park's testimony reading @ 1:07 - 2p; 2:17p received verdict forms and resumed deliberations; 2:51p back in court with a verdict, all the forms filled out, envelope sealed.

anyone know what time they had lunch and for how long?

Lunch was at 12:00 and then to the courtroom for the readback at 1:00.

[martin II]

There are actually several "Big Ben" variations. They show up around the internet at sites wherever the Simpson case is discussed in an effort to drum up business for a book and video they have for sale. Their video clips take testimony out of sequence to supposedly support their "theories". The "legal action" was simply a motion made by two brothers behind the book/video who purport to be "investigators". They had no legal standing in the case and in effect were trying to hide behind a borderline sham corporation to gain access to the phone records of a private ciitzen. They admit they weren't working for OJ Simpson - they have their own agenda for their own reasons. Anybody can file a motion asking the court to do something - it doesn't mean they have the right to the information. Not only Lou Brown but the court did not allow them access to the records.

i understand your position about lack of standing.most oeople that write books claim to be investigators such as VB.

But lou could have made them look like fools if he had allowed all of the records including those that BH took home released especially since he says the 11 pm that JB told people was wrong.

what a bomb shell that would be if the 11 pm was true.

[weezer]

i understand your position about lack of standing.most oeople that write books claim to be investigators such as VB.

But lou could have made them look like fools if he had allowed all of the records including those that BH took home released especially since he says the 11 pm that JB told people was wrong.

what a bomb shell that would be if the 11 pm was true.

fact: both the defense and the prosecution stipulated to the accuracy of the Browns' telephone record. that time was not 11p but 10p.

Douglas appeared before the court and made a motion regarding the exhibits, etc., in which he said the defendant/defense did not want any of the exhibits, etc., except for the exhibit boards simpson had paid for.

looks like that bombshell was a dud. ;)

[weezer]

now -- back to the jury deliberation timeline.

jury given the case for deliberation @ 9:16a

jury transports to jury room, potty breaks, elects jury foreperson, gets something to drink, etc. -- say 20 minutes

9:35a -- begins actual deliberations with first vote

12n - 1p - lunch

1:07p - 2p - read back of Park testimony

2:17p - received verdict form and returned to deliberate

2:51p - back in court with verdict, forms filled out, envelope sealed

anyone do the math? I figure about 2 hours it took for them to be deliberated.

[tv]

The Run of His Life: The People v. OJ Simpson, by Jeffrey Toobin, Chapter 23, page 426

Turning for the first time to the facts of the case, Anise Aschenbach (the defense’s white ‘demon’) announced she wanted to say something. She had been stewing all weekend. Aschenbach had been so angry during Cochran’s summation that she almost got up and told the lawyer to shut up. “I was so enraged at what he said,” Aschenbach told her fellow jurors. “He wants us to send the LAPD a message. Does he think we’re so stupid that we’re going to send a message rather than decided based on what we heard in the case? I hope I was not the only one offended by his remarks.”

Her fellow jurors responded to these comments with total silence.


The Run of His Life: The People v. OJ Simpson, by Jeffrey Toobin, Chapter 23, page 431

…The jurors filed out in their usual silence. From his seat, number six, Lon Cryer, had the longest walk to the door. He kept his head down most of the way, then turned to the defense table and raised his fist in a black power salute. Then he, too, left the courtroom.

Most of the jurors dissolved into tears when they arrived back in the deliberation room. They hugged and wept and clung to one another for support. After a few minutes, a pair of deputies came to escort them up to the lounge on the eleventh floor, where they had done most of their waiting over the course of the trial. There the tears mostly stopped, and the jurors sat in shell-shocked silence on the couches and easy chairs. Finally, Carrie Bess said something to no one in particular: “We’ve got to protect our own.”

[weezer]

this is from the earlier link:

MR. PETROCELLI: Daniel Petrocelli for Fred Goldman. your Honor, we got into this case only about 10 days ago. One of the first things that happened is, I heard about this motion for the return of Mr. Simpson's evidence; and our concern was simply to protect the status quo so that we could get a handle on things, have a chance to inspect the evidence, determine what evidence is of no consequence to the civil action, in which case we could withdraw any position to withhold any property of Mr. Simpson's. With respect to that evidence that we think was crucial to preserve and protect for the civil action, we thought it best to present the issue to the civil court in the form of a motion to the presiding Judge over this case, who was Judge Alan Haber in Santa Monica. So that's exactly what we did, your Honor. We subpoenaed all the records to make sure that we had some legal process with respect to them. We then filed the motion before Judge Haber to preserve and protect the evidence, put it in the hands of a neutral custody, whether it be the court or somebody else; not us, not any of the parties, not Mr. Simpson, but a neutral custody until all of us has had the time to examine the evidence, determine what is needed and was not needed. As your Honor knows better than anyone, Mr. Simpson made as the centerpiece of his defense in the criminal trial the poor handling of the evidence, the contamination of the evidence, chain of custody problems. We want to make sure that in the civil action, he does not have any of those concerns. We want to make sure that the evidence is protected and remains intact.

And, your Honor, I might add that the evidence that he seeks the return of in this motion that he filed is all the items set forth on numerous pages of his property report, and some of them include things as swatches, blood and other biological items. You know, I take it from Mr. Douglas' comments that he is desirous and intends at this point to get those items back, and I'm glad to hear that. However, it does include such items as plastic bag containing one fake goatee, one fake mustache, one bottle of cement make-up adhesive, one bottle of make-up adhesive removal. Now, these could be important items, your Honor, and our position is simply that this court should defer ruling on this motion today for a mere two weeks and let your companion court, Judge Haber, decide our motion. He's the Judge who is now going to have responsibility for this case. The civil case is going to involve virtually the same issues of liability as were involved in the criminal case, whether Mr. Simpson is responsible for the deaths of these two people, and we are going to need much of the same evidence. . ."

why in the world did he want the swatches, blood, and other biological items? :eek:

[weezer]

same link -- Mr. Douglas

". . .We are not seeking the return of any biological evidence. We are not seeking the return of any prosecutorial exhibits. . ."

[tv]

same link -- Mr. Douglas

". . .We are not seeking the return of any biological evidence. We are not seeking the return of any prosecutorial exhibits. . ."

They didn't want the phone records that show Nicole and Ron were alive at 11:00? I'm shocked. :eek:

[GreenIce]

The case was over, Simpson won, so there would be no criminal re-trial in the future. The Court had no use for the records. Do you think they have endless storage capacity? They had a hearing about the Court keeping the documents until the pending the civil action was over. After that action was over the judge released documents to both the prosecution and the defense. Nobody seems to be asking what the defense did with their documents.

There wasn't a problem. There was just somebody making something out of nothing in the hope of making a buck off of OJ Simpson.

Serpentsfall,

I have to disagree with your statement that case was over. Simpson was aquitted and the case is still listed as unsolved. If a phone call was made to or from Bundy at 11:00 p.m., means at the very least, at least one more person was involved. To the best of my knowledge, as long as the case is still officially listed as unsolved, the evidence is or should be kept.

The fact that this phone record does exist only raises more questions which could be easily answered if they were released. IMO.

[weezer]

the defense had copies of all the exhibits and evidence offered by the prosecution -- looks like they could have just given their copy to orenthal. :shrug:

[GreenIce]

How do you know the Browns (Juditha and Lou) hate Simpson? Even if they believe he killed their daughter, they don't have to love or hate the man. At some point, for the sake of their grandkids, they have had to make some kind of peace or truce with him. If they could have shown him innocent, don't you think they would have done so for their grandkids' sake? The custody battle wasn't necessarily about proving him "guilty" of murder - it was about the best interests of the children. They never even sought to prove him guilty of Nicole's murder in the civil trial.

Isn't it just as likely that Lou Brown just didn't like the Johnson brothers? If some stranger knocked on your door and asked for a copy of YOUR personal phone records would you voluntarily turn them over? The Browns apparently at least listened to the Johnsons' spiel, but must have figured out the Johnsons weren't actually working for OJ. The Browns weren't going to "win" anything by being right; all they stood to do would be tick OJ off by opening a closed can of worms.

SF,

I believe I did say that I believed the Browns would release the phone records if it helped their grandchildren. I do know that Simpson and Mr. and Mrs. Brown did have to find peace for the sake of their children and it seems to me that they have accomplished this.

If I remember correctly, if there was custody battle, evidence, from both sides could be entered regarding the murders.

I just thought of this in regards to the Browns' hating Simpson, perhaps they realized, like many people, hate takes up way, way too much time and takes a lot of work to maintain--especially knowing that you can't change anything.

You may right, they may not feel anything toward him.

[weezer]

let me think this through here: a defendant is found not guilty of a double murder but it's odd that the case would still be 'open'? --- hmmm.

[GreenIce]

i understand your position about lack of standing.most oeople that write books claim to be investigators such as VB.

But lou could have made them look like fools if he had allowed all of the records including those that BH took home released especially since he says the 11 pm that JB told people was wrong.

what a bomb shell that would be if the 11 pm was true.

Martin,

I wonder if Nicole's answering machine or voice mail on her telephone was ever looked at. I know the LAPD took Ron's and gave it back to them after the criminal case, but I don't remember hearing any thing about Nicole's.

I don't know if Nicole had a cell phone, but I would think that she would. I wonder if her cell phone records were ever checked.

I think in CR's deposition he says he told the LAPD to check out Faye's cell phone as well as Nicole's. He also told the defense the same thing but he said that neither side did and he doesn't understand why.

I think Faye's and Dr. Ameli's phone calls to Nicole regarding time and content are much more important then Judi Brown's, as well as the female who called the station asking about two bodies on Bundy.

[weezer]

I guess we can assume that all telephone records and answering machine messages were checked. Not quite sure why anyone would 'think' Nicole had a cell phone -- nothing like that was ever said/insinuated by either side. I'm going to research CR's depostion to see if in fact he said anything about Faye and Nicole having a cell phones and him telling LE and the defense they should check it.

[GreenIce]

Martin,

Another interesting tidbit from Weller's book. Her sources told her that at the wake, OJ spent a lot of time with Nicole and that it appeared to them that Simpson was trying to look at Nicole's stomach wounds. However, that makes no sense for Simpson to look for wounds that he knew weren't there if he was the killer.

It seems to me that many people were told of injuries that were not there.

[weezer]

Roflmao

[tv]

I'm assuming that Nicole was fully clothed at her wake. How was Simpson supposed to see her abdomen without disturbing her clothing? Juditha Brown commented on his actions while he was at the casket and she mentioned nothing about him rummaging around Nicole's stomach. What would be his purpose for wanting to see stomach wounds or any wounds on her for that mattter? For pete's sake. :D

[weezer]

I'm posting the link to CR's 8/22 testimony. I don't see anything about Faye and/or Nicole having cell phones OR him telling LE and the defense they should be checked. Maybe someone else can re-read and point to where I missed it.

http://walraven.org/simpson/aug22.html

[weezer]

I'm posting the link to CR's civil deposition. I don't see anything about Faye and/or Nicole having cell phones OR him telling LE and the defense they should be checked. Maybe someone else can read it and point to where I missed it.

Christian Reichardt Deposition of March 25, 1996
http://walraven.org/simpson/cr_depo2.html

[socaldiva]

Martin,

Another interesting tidbit from Weller's book. Her sources told her that at the wake, OJ spent a lot of time with Nicole and that it appeared to them that Simpson was trying to look at Nicole's stomach wounds. However, that makes no sense for Simpson to look for wounds that he knew weren't there if he was the killer.

It seems to me that many people were told of injuries that were not there.

Well this is the first I've heard of OJ trying to look at Nicole's stomach wounds. What a FREAK!!!! This is your idea of evidence of his innocense? Wow

[martin II]

Autopsy of Nicole Brown Simpson :

Anatomical Summary:

I. Incised wound of neck:

A. Transection of left and right common carotid arteries.

B. Incisions, left and right internal jugular veins

C. Transection of thyrohyoid membrane, epiglottis, and hypopharynx.

D. Incision into cervical spine, C3.

II. Multiple stab wound of neck and scalp (total of seven).

III. Multiple injuries of hands, including incised wound, ring finger of
right hand (defense wound).

IV. Scalp bruise, right parietal.

No slashed breasts, alleged or otherwise.

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/cas45.htm

Dr Golden testified that he made a adendum to his autopsy report giving more
details of the wounds. i have looked but not found it.

[martin II]

You think it took 2 and 1/2 hours to drive 68 miles even with construction?

Easilly with highway construction and the resulting traffic and detours.Also map quest is not the most reliable/accurate driving instructions.

[martin II]

There are actually several "Big Ben" variations. They show up around the internet at sites wherever the Simpson case is discussed in an effort to drum up business for a book and video they have for sale. Their video clips take testimony out of sequence to supposedly support their "theories". The "legal action" was simply a motion made by two brothers behind the book/video who purport to be "investigators". They had no legal standing in the case and in effect were trying to hide behind a borderline sham corporation to gain access to the phone records of a private ciitzen. They admit they weren't working for OJ Simpson - they have their own agenda for their own reasons. Anybody can file a motion asking the court to do something - it doesn't mean they have the right to the information. Not only Lou Brown but the court did not allow them access to the records.

It seems that you are suggesting that the Johnson brothers were doing research/investigations like every one else that sold books and cd for commerce.

They also had a problem getting Rons driving court records that were public records.

[serpentsfall]

It seems that you are suggesting that the Johnson brothers were doing research/investigations like every one else that sold books and cd for commerce.

They also had a problem getting Rons driving court records that were public records.

And you know this from watching the video clip "ads" for their product, right? They got what was public record, sensationalized and misrepresented what those public records say, and tried but were unsuccessful in gaining access to records that are not public record. They couldn't get the additional records because, again, they have no legal standing in the case.

[GreenIce]

Dr Golden testified that he made a adendum to his autopsy report giving more
details of the wounds. i have looked but not found it.

Martin,

When you look back at the early media coverage as well as what the police are able to do during their course of investigation, I can see how these wounds were "made up", that seeds of misinformation were planted to see where they would end up.

IMO, Simpson, fell for all this misinformation and believed the media reports regarding the "evidence" in the case, such as wounds to Nicole's stomach.
However, I would like to add that because a "source" told someone who told someone, etc., doesn't mean the source is telling the truth or the whole truth. I also believe that certain "sources" had a their own personal reasons to point the finger at Simpson.

In regards to Dr. Golden's addendum to his report, was this covered in the criminal trial? I understand that things can be missed but how times has paperwork and reports had to be done because the first ones were inadequate?

[martin II]

Lunch was at 12:00 and then to the courtroom for the readback at 1:00.

At the beginning of deliberations the jury decided to take a vote to see where they stood. it was 10 to 2 or 9 3
They spent the remainder of the time discussing and answering jurors questions.They decided they needed to get a readback of Parks testimony.
i think this was the last unanswered questions.After this there were no more questions from any juror. They decided to take another vote.
If no juror had any additional questions there was nothing to discuss.This happens in every deliberations.jurors don't force themselves to discuss something when all decide there are no more questions.

There is no requirement that jurors go through trial testimony witness by witness or evidence by evidence.So there is no reason to try to suggest that the oj jury should have.imo

[serpentsfall]

i understand your position about lack of standing.most oeople that write books claim to be investigators such as VB.

But lou could have made them look like fools if he had allowed all of the records including those that BH took home released especially since he says the 11 pm that JB told people was wrong.

what a bomb shell that would be if the 11 pm was true.

Lou Brown had/has no obligation to make fools look like fools! He simply did what all people should do - he ignored them. Would you want to give some sham "investigators" your personal phone records? Do the Johnson brothers seem to be the kind of guys who would settle for a copy of the records with all personal phone numbers blacked out?

[GreenIce]

At the beginning of deliberations the jury decided to take a vote to see where they stood. it was 10 to 2 or 9 3
They spent the remainder of the time discussing and answering jurors questions.They decided they needed to get a readback of Parks testimony.
i think this was the last unanswered questions.After this there were no more questions from any juror. They decided to take another vote.
If no juror had any additional questions there was nothing to discuss.This happens in every deliberations.jurors don't force themselves to discuss something when all decide there are no more questions.

There is no requirement that jurors go through trial testimony witness by witness or evidence by evidence.So there is no reason to try to suggest that the oj jury should have.imo

Martin,

I can't find all of CR's deposition. However, he is interviewed in the book, Killing Time where he does talk about Faye's freebasing and he does refer to her mobile phone records. He also says on the issue of drugs that the defense "wasn't always so good".

I agree with you about the jury, the what I call "neutral" evidence was the timeline as well as perhaps when Park first claimed to have seen Simpson. IMO, the DA's made a huge mistake by trying to get the jury believe that Simpson would use his own front door to enter his house after the murders.

It makes no sense Simpson would go into the alley behind the wall, run back out and run to his front door. He had no reason to do this. I think the DA's actually insulted the jurors, all of them on this issue. IMO, I think they questioned the DA's by even allowing MF to testify about the glove.

It seems to me you only have to read Kato's testimony about the two gates and MF's to know that the glove was placed there, on purpose and it was done after Mr. Simpson left his estate, IMO.

[martin II]

Martin,

When you look back at the early media coverage as well as what the police are able to do during their course of investigation, I can see how these wounds were "made up", that seeds of misinformation were planted to see where they would end up.

IMO, Simpson, fell for all this misinformation and believed the media reports regarding the "evidence" in the case, such as wounds to Nicole's stomach.
However, I would like to add that because a "source" told someone who told someone, etc., doesn't mean the source is telling the truth or the whole truth. I also believe that certain "sources" had a their own personal reasons to point the finger at Simpson.

In regards to Dr. Golden's addendum to his report, was this covered in the criminal trial? I understand that things can be missed but how times has paperwork and reports had to be done because the first ones were inadequate?


Golden testified about the adendum before the criminal trial so his testimony
was available

Goldens boss made statements that he Golden had made some 30 mistakes in his autopsy although Golden had done 5,000 autopsies. Since Goldens boss testified to a autopsy that he did not perform for some reason i have never had a lot of confidence in the report or the testimony.

obviously there was some static beetween Golden and his boss.

Vanhatter and lang were present but i have wondered why a rep of the defence was not.Were they notified when it was to be done or not?

[GreenIce]

Lou Brown had/has no obligation to make fools look like fools! He simply did what all people should do - he ignored them. Would you want to give some sham "investigators" your personal phone records? Do the Johnson brothers seem to be the kind of guys who would settle for a copy of the records with all personal phone numbers blacked out?

SF,

I agree Mr. Brown had no obligaligation to these men.

However, who did have legal and moral obligations with regards to these phone records? It was Bill Hodgeman and the DA's. If those records showed 11:00 p.m. phone call either to or from Nicole's home, isn't this exclupatory evidence and shouldn't this have been turned over to the defense?

IMO, the DA's shifted their obligation onto the Browns--this is wrong, IMO.

[GreenIce]

Golden testified about the adendum before the criminal trial so his testimony
was available

Goldens boss made statements that he Golden had made some 30 mistakes in his autopsy although Golden had done 5,000 autopsies. Since Goldens boss testified to a autopsy that he did not perform for some reason i have never had a lot of confidence in the report or the testimony.

obviously there was some static beetween Golden and his boss.

Vanhatter and lang were present but i have wondered why a rep of the defence was not.Were they notified when it was to be done or not?

Martin,

Brian Kellberg wanted to paint Dr. Golden as a man who has made these types of mistakes for years. However, the mistakes that were made appear to be so "simple" that it is laughable that they were actually made. Kind of like bloody fingerprints on fences, light switch's, Nicole's right hand, etc.

I don't think the defense has the right to be present at the autopsy. I think Shapiro did ask for this but was turned down and I think he asked for a second autospy to be done by Dr. Baden.

[martin II]

Martin,

I can't find all of CR's deposition. However, he is interviewed in the book, Killing Time where he does talk about Faye's freebasing and he does refer to her mobile phone records. He also says on the issue of drugs that the defense "wasn't always so good".

I agree with you about the jury, the what I call "neutral" evidence was the timeline as well as perhaps when Park first claimed to have seen Simpson. IMO, the DA's made a huge mistake by trying to get the jury believe that Simpson would use his own front door to enter his house after the murders.

It makes no sense Simpson would go into the alley behind the wall, run back out and run to his front door. He had no reason to do this. I think the DA's actually insulted the jurors, all of them on this issue. IMO, I think they questioned the DA's by even allowing MF to testify about the glove.

It seems to me you only have to read Kato's testimony about the two gates and MF's to know that the glove was placed there, on purpose and it was done after Mr. Simpson left his estate, IMO.

The prosecution was all over the place on what they thought oj did

Clarke said oj jumped the fence dropped the glove ran out of the walkway with no mention of the closed gates

Furhman said oj parked the bronco walked up the driveway and into the south walkway,dropped the glove, ran back out and into his front door

Vanhatter said oj parked the bronco,walked up his driveway to his front door.

They could not get their story straight. it may be that the jury thought something was wrong since they could not get the story straight.

It was Kato that brought the gates into the picture and this helped to prove all three wrong.

The jury had made a fielkd trip to ojs house. They stated that they did njot believe Park could have seen all that he said he saw from where he was. the bushed and trees in front of the house was a problem. imo this is why they asked for the readback. Obviously they did not believe him as after the readback they voted not guilty.

[martin II]

Martin,

I can't find all of CR's deposition. However, he is interviewed in the book, Killing Time where he does talk about Faye's freebasing and he does refer to her mobile phone records. He also says on the issue of drugs that the defense "wasn't always so good".

I agree with you about the jury, the what I call "neutral" evidence was the timeline as well as perhaps when Park first claimed to have seen Simpson. IMO, the DA's made a huge mistake by trying to get the jury believe that Simpson would use his own front door to enter his house after the murders.

It makes no sense Simpson would go into the alley behind the wall, run back out and run to his front door. He had no reason to do this. I think the DA's actually insulted the jurors, all of them on this issue. IMO, I think they questioned the DA's by even allowing MF to testify about the glove.

It seems to me you only have to read Kato's testimony about the two gates and MF's to know that the glove was placed there, on purpose and it was done after Mr. Simpson left his estate, IMO.

i don't know what kind of rehab faye was in but don;t think it anything but a drying out house that take the money and allow the clients to do what they please. i don't understand how she was able to make these phone calls after being in the rehab for less than a week.

How could she be in rehab without first doing 30 days in detox. most rehabs wont take people unless they hade been in detox.

Considering her long term use she should have been in a long term program.

[martin II]

Martin,

Brian Kellberg wanted to paint Dr. Golden as a man who has made these types of mistakes for years. However, the mistakes that were made appear to be so "simple" that it is laughable that they were actually made. Kind of like bloody fingerprints on fences, light switch's, Nicole's right hand, etc.

I don't think the defense has the right to be present at the autopsy. I think Shapiro did ask for this but was turned down and I think he asked for a second autospy to be done by Dr. Baden.

Goldens boss Dr L worked for Baden when Baden was chief ME in NY

[martin II]

Martin,

Brian Kellberg wanted to paint Dr. Golden as a man who has made these types of mistakes for years. However, the mistakes that were made appear to be so "simple" that it is laughable that they were actually made. Kind of like bloody fingerprints on fences, light switch's, Nicole's right hand, etc.

I don't think the defense has the right to be present at the autopsy. I think Shapiro did ask for this but was turned down and I think he asked for a second autospy to be done by Dr. Baden.

If Golden was this much of a screw up in the past why was he still working in the coroners office and why did they assign him to do the autoposy in the first place.Why didn Dr L do it?

[weezer]

least we forget:

the portion of the telephone record that was relevant to the time period, was stipulated to by both the defense and the prosecution.

the telephone record was given to the jury. the defense had copies of the telephone statement -- they could have provided orenthal.

there has never been two telephone records.

calls came in and out of the Browns home before and/or after the murders is nobody's business but the Browns.

[weezer]

Preliminary Hearing - July 8, 1994

Irwin L. Golden,
called as a witness by and on behalf of the People, was examined and testified as follows: Pages 50 - 52

". . .Q And after you testified before the Grand Jury, did your department issue some additional reports with regard to the autopsies performed on Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald Goldman?
A Yes.
Q Are those reports characterized as addendums?
A Yes.
Q Was there an addendum that was prepared with regard to Nicole Brown Simpson's autopsy report?
A Yes.
Q And when was that report issued, sir?
A It was issued July 1st, 1994.
Q And it is true, is it not, Dr. Golden, that an addendum to the Ronald Goldman autopsy report was issued on that same date?
A Yes.
Q Now, with regard to the addendums, Dr. Golden, why were those addendums prepared?
A Okay. I'll go through each case number. On Nicole Brown Simpson, addendum report was prepared for the following reasons: One, there were corrections of typographical errors. Two, upon review of the photographs I made amendments, additions to the original report. And pertaining only to Nicole Brown Simpson, I made an addendum opinion after review of stored tissue,and that --
Q And you had not had an opportunity to review that stored tissue prior to the issuance of the autopsy report; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, sir, there were some additional corrections of typos, amendments to the autopsy report of -- on Ronald Goldman; is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And sir, before you issued the autopsy reports -- or caused to be issued the autopsy reports with regard to each victim in this case, had you had an opportunity to review the photographs which were taken during each of the autopsies?
A No.
Q Subsequent to the issuance of those reports, did you have an opportunity to make a detailed review of those photographs?
A Yes.
Q And was it subsequent to the review of those photographs, a detailed review, that these addendums
were issued?
A Yes.
Q With regard to the addendum, does any of the basic data or findings of -- that were included in your original autopsy reports, does any of that change?
A The changes were made to make the report more precise and detailed. The basic findings -- and that includes findings as to the cause of death -- were not changed. There were no changes about -- pertaining to the internal examination. Basic measurements taken when I did the examination, including measurements on the stab wounds, were not changed.

All of the basic measurements, particularly ones that would pertain to cause of death or weapon identification, were not changed.

I changed some of the descriptions based on the photographs to provide a more precise and detailed description for this report. . ."

[weezer]

the autopsy report did not indicate any injury or damage to the brain or skull as suggested by another post.the report indicated that the hand wounds were defensive in nature.i take this to mean that she was defending herself.the wounds on rons hands were also called defensive wounds.

FRIDAY, JUNE 2, 1995 9:10 A.M

". . .dr. Lakshmanan observed, and i'm sure dr. Baden did as well, that there appears to be a contusion or at least a blood -- evidence of blood in the tissue of the brain that was preserved by dr. Golden.

This ultimately resulted in an addendum which included reference to that particular material along with a supplemental microscopic report detailing the findings of that.

Clearly it is something that is a mistake by dr. Golden not to have addressed or diagrammed, and it is a matter which dr. Lakshmanan would talk about in discussing its possible relationship with the contusion to the scalp of nicole brown simpson that is in one of the photographs we are going to show, i believe it is 40, if i'm not mistaken --40 -- of nicole brown simpson.

I may be mistaken on the number, but we can get it if the court needs to see it.the issue is, was that brain contusion directly underneath the scalp contusion, as dr. Golden's supplemental report suggests is his recollection, or -- b20, i'm sorry -- b20 is our number, or is it from the opposite side of the brain, in which case it may reflect a type of injury that is called a contrecoup, c-o-n-t-r-e-c-o-u-p, type injury, whereas if the brain contusion were directly underneath the scalp contusion, it would suggest, a coup type injury.

And dr. Lakshmanan can explain these things much better than i as to their significance in this matter, but it is clearly something that was not addressed and it is something that is verifiable by the photographs.

I don't think that this is a particularly prejudicial photograph in any way. I don't think most people would have the foggiest idea what they would be looking at. It is certainly not
gruesome in any sense of the term and its probative value i think is significantly advanced by its relationship to the scalp contusion which relates to the nature and extent of any struggle between nicole brown
simpson and the perpetrator of her murder. . ."

[tv]

Easilly with highway construction and the resulting traffic and detours.Also map quest is not the most reliable/accurate driving instructions.

We know that it didn't take them that long to get home because the phone records prove what time Juditha spoke to Nicole.

[Kate Sachel]

least we forget:

the portion of the telephone record that was relevant to the time period, was stipulated to by both the defense and the prosecution.

the telephone record was given to the jury. the defense had copies of the telephone statement -- they could have provided orenthal.

there has never been two telephone records.

calls came in and out of the Browns home before and/or after the murders is nobody's business but the Browns.

Thank you; let us not forgot that when a stipulation is made, it is then fact.

It surprises me that some, who consider OJ's defense a "dream team", would think that the same defense would be incompetent enough to overlook or simply not pursue one item that would undoubtedly clear their client.

Kate

[tv]

Dr Golden testified that he made a adendum to his autopsy report giving more
details of the wounds. i have looked but not found it.

When you find the report detailing abdominal and/or breasts wounds please post it.

[Kate Sachel]

i don't know what kind of rehab faye was in but don;t think it anything but a drying out house that take the money and allow the clients to do what they please. i don't understand how she was able to make these phone calls after being in the rehab for less than a week.

How could she be in rehab without first doing 30 days in detox. most rehabs wont take people unless they hade been in detox.

Considering her long term use she should have been in a long term program.

We have well been over the rehabilitation center topic and it does not take much but a few moments of time for research to discover that there are varying types of rehabilitation centers and that not all follow the same protocol.

In fact, you do not have to look any further than a weekly People magazine to see photos of the countless celebrities who enter rehab and immediately have visitors, access to telephones and cigarettes, and the ability to roam free.

In addition, not all individuals who voluntarily enter rehab are in need of detox. It depends on numerous factors at intake. If I admit myself to a center because I feel that my drug abuse is beginning to take over and want to be proactive in ceasing the pattern, and am not high or otherwise intoxicated at the time of intake then I am most certainly not going to be put into detox.

Kate

[weezer]

Originally Posted by martin ii
the autopsy report did not indicate any injury or damage to the brain or skull as suggested by another post.the report indicated that the hand wounds were defensive in nature.i take this to mean that she was defending herself.the wounds on rons hands were also called defensive wounds.

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 7, 1995

. . .Q DOCTOR, WHAT KIND OF INJURIES IF ANY IN PARTICULAR WOULD YOU AS A FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST BE LOOKING FOR ON THE PALMAR SURFACE OR IN THE PALMAR AREA OF THE HAND AND FINGERS AS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH IN A CASE INVOLVING SHARP FORCE INJURIES?
A YOU WOULD EXPECT TO SEE DEFENSE WOUNDS LIKE CUTS AND PUNCTURE WOUNDS, AND THAT'S WHAT YOU LOOK FOR, AND THAT IS WHY THIS PHOTOGRAPH IS TAKEN, TO SHOW THERE'S NO INJURIES SEEN TO THE PALMAR ASPECT OF THE LEFT HAND.
Q HOW ARE DEFENSIVE WOUNDS CREATED?
A THEY ARE CREATED WHEN THE VICTIM USES THE HAND OR PALM OF THE HAND TO WARD OFF ANY INFLICTING INJURY.
Q AND, DOCTOR, ARE THERE COMMON WAYS THAT FORENSIC PATHOLOGISTS FIND VICTIMS OF IMPENDING SHARP FORCE INJURY ATTACK TRY TO WARD OFF SUCH ATTACK BY USE OF THE HANDS?
A YOU WILL USUALLY SEE THE CUTS IN THE PALMS OF THE HANDS, YOU CAN SEE THE WRISTS AND FOREARMS SOMETIMES AND THE BACK OF THE HANDS. . .

. . .Q DOCTOR, AND ON THIS LEFT HAND OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, THE PALMAR SIDE, DID YOU FIND ANY EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER OF DEFENSIVE WOUNDS?
A NO. . . .

. . .Q BY MR. KELBERG: DOCTOR, LET ME INVITE YOUR ATTENTION NOW TO PHOTOGRAPH B-31 IN THE LOWER RIGHT CORNER OF THIS ARRAY OF PHOTOGRAPHS. WHAT IS SHOWN --
A YES.
Q WHAT IS SHOWN IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
A B-31 SHOWS THE PALMAR ASPECT OF THE RIGHT HAND, AND YOU CAN SEE AN AREA OF INJURY TO THE RIGHT RING FINGER. IT'S A SUPERFICIAL CUT. THE PHOTOGRAPH IS A LITTLE DARK HERE, BUT THERE'S A CUT HERE (INDICATING).
Q THERE'S --
A YOU CAN SEE IT BETTER IN THE OTHER PHOTOGRAPH.
Q WHICH PHOTOGRAPH IS IT BETTER SEEN IN, DOCTOR, IF IT'S ONE OF THESE THAT'S ON THE BOARD?
A YES. IT'S SEEN BETTER IN B-12. YOU CAN SEE THE CUT HERE BETTER. YES, YOU CAN SEE IT BETTER HERE IN THIS (INDICATING) --
Q KEEP YOUR VOICE UP, DOCTOR.
A YOU CAN SEE IT BETTER IN B-12. IF YOU USE A MAGNIFYING GLASS, YOU CAN SEE IT VERY WELL.
Q ALL RIGHT. AND WHICH FINGER IS IT AGAIN?
A RIGHT RING FINGER, PALMAR ASPECT.
Q OKAY. AND IS THIS IN YOUR OPINION WHAT YOU WOULD CALL A DEFENSIVE WOUND?
A YES.
Q AND ARE YOU ABLE TO TELL IN ANY GENERALIZED FASHION THE MANNER IN WHICH THAT WAS RECEIVED?
A IT WAS A DEFENSIVE WOUND WHICH HAPPENED WHEN MISS SIMPSON TRIED TO DEFEND HERSELF WHEN SHE WAS BEING STABBED.
Q DOCTOR, IS THERE MORE THAN THAT ONE DEFENSIVE WOUND ON THE PALMAR SURFACE OF THE RIGHT HAND?
A NO.
Q WHAT IF ANY SIGNIFICANCE IS THERE FOR YOU THAT THERE IS ONE AND ONLY ONE DEFENSIVE WOUND TO THE PALMAR SURFACE OF THE RIGHT HAND?
A THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT SHE WAS PROBABLY RAPIDLY INCAPACITATED AND WAS NOT ABLE TO OFFER MUCH RESISTANCE. . ."

[weezer]

When you find the report detailing abdominal and/or breasts wounds please post it.

okay -- I've now been through the coroner's 3 days of testimony. . . .no mention of breast, breasts, slashing. . . nada

guess the poster was mistaken, again. :shrug:

[tv]

okay -- I've now been through the coroner's 3 days of testimony. . . .no mention of breast, breasts, slashing. . . nada

guess the poster was mistaken, again. :shrug:

It would certainly appear that way, again. :)

[martin II]

The Run of His Life: The People v. OJ Simpson, by Jeffrey Toobin, Chapter 23, page 426

Turning for the first time to the facts of the case, Anise Aschenbach (the defense’s white ‘demon’) announced she wanted to say something. She had been stewing all weekend. Aschenbach had been so angry during Cochran’s summation that she almost got up and told the lawyer to shut up. “I was so enraged at what he said,” Aschenbach told her fellow jurors. “He wants us to send the LAPD a message. Does he think we’re so stupid that we’re going to send a message rather than decided based on what we heard in the case? I hope I was not the only one offended by his remarks.”

Her fellow jurors responded to these comments with total silence.


The Run of His Life: The People v. OJ Simpson, by Jeffrey Toobin, Chapter 23, page 431

…The jurors filed out in their usual silence. From his seat, number six, Lon Cryer, had the longest walk to the door. He kept his head down most of the way, then turned to the defense table and raised his fist in a black power salute. Then he, too, left the courtroom.

Most of the jurors dissolved into tears when they arrived back in the deliberation room. They hugged and wept and clung to one another for support. After a few minutes, a pair of deputies came to escort them up to the lounge on the eleventh floor, where they had done most of their waiting over the course of the trial. There the tears mostly stopped, and the jurors sat in shell-shocked silence on the couches and easy chairs. Finally, Carrie Bess said something to no one in particular: “We’ve got to protect our own.”

How did Toobin get into the deliberating room to see all of this??

[tv]

How did Toobin get into the deliberating room to see all of this??

Who said he was in the deliberation room?

[martin II]

Any person that has abused drugs to the point that they have not been able to stop on their own needs to be detoxed. Many that go to these celebrity type rehab quicky non strict programs are the ones that find themselves making regular trips to various rehabs over and over again.

Faye had a long history of freebasing which means that she had a physical requirement for the drug and should have been in detox so as not to have cravings while she receives education on how to live without drugs.
Same is true for alcoholics.
Programs that allow the client to run the program are not successulf.imo

[martin II]

Who said he was in the deliberation room?

Who is doing the talking in your second paragraph?

[tv]

Who is doing the talking in your second paragraph?

In case you missed it, I listed the book, author, chapter, and page. In the second paragraph Jeffrey Toobin is obviously in the courtroom.

[weezer]

There's been outrageous/unsupported allegations that Nicole was doing drugs with Faye while Faye was staying with her. I'm posting a part of the hearing for July 14th that contains clarification as to just how long Faye resided at Bundy -- 6 days. Since there were no drugs found in Nicole's system, I think it's safe to assume that Nicole was not sitting around the house doing drugs.

". .MR. COCHRAN: She won't stipulate to that. But at any rate, your Honor, in all seriousness, with regard to Detective Lange, the subject matter came up of whether or not Faye Resnick resided, starting I think with Friday, June 3rd, at Nicole Brown Simpson's condominium. And there was some--we were cut off at some point or whatever, and based upon the Court's ruling yesterday I think it would be unfair to the Defendant were I not to either have a stipulation, which I hope to work out with Mr. Darden, that between the dates of the 3rd and certainly the date of the intervention on the 8th Faye Resnick did in fact reside at that location. And I am perfectly willing to stipulate that after the 9th she went into intervention and went into exodus and on the date of the murders was in fact in exodus and apparently for like a two-week period of time, and I think we can work that out. . ."

[weezer]

there's been unsupported allegations that LE talked with Sydney. For clarification, I am posting a portion of the hearing from July 15th.

". . .MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, the other thing is--and so there is no confusion regarding this, last week I indicated to the Court that the Defense would like to--one member of the Defense would like to, along with the Prosecution, speak to the minor Sydney Simpson. So the record is abundantly clear, the last thing in the world we want to do is to call Sydney Simpson to the stand. Mr. Simpson doesn't want it and neither do we. But we would have--we think we have an obligation to try and talk to her, and I just talked to Miss Clark about it who has she indicated she will do what she can to try and set up a meeting through the Brown family. If she and I or whom she designates or I designate to do, we will try to have a stipulation, as we did with Juditha Brown, hopefully next week. . ."

if anyone has a link that indicates this ended with a meeting between prosecution/defense/Sydney, please post it.

[martin II]

In case you missed it, I listed the book, author, chapter, and page. In the second paragraph Jeffrey Toobin is obviously in the courtroom.

WHO MADE THE BELOW COMMENT?


Most of the jurors dissolved into tears when they arrived back in the deliberation room. They hugged and wept and clung to one another for support. After a few minutes, a pair of deputies came to escort them up to the lounge on the eleventh floor, where they had done most of their waiting over the course of the trial. There the tears mostly stopped, and the jurors sat in shell-shocked silence on the couches and easy chairs. Finally, Carrie Bess said something to no one in particular: “We’ve got to protect our own.”

[tv]

WHO MADE THE BELOW COMMENT?


Most of the jurors dissolved into tears when they arrived back in the deliberation room. They hugged and wept and clung to one another for support. After a few minutes, a pair of deputies came to escort them up to the lounge on the eleventh floor, where they had done most of their waiting over the course of the trial. There the tears mostly stopped, and the jurors sat in shell-shocked silence on the couches and easy chairs. Finally, Carrie Bess said something to no one in particular: “We’ve got to protect our own.”

martin, it clearly says Carrie Bess made the comment.

[Hipcheck]

I am getting sick and tired of seeing GreenIce post lie after lie after lie.

Posting that Nicole and Faye had cell phones is just one of the latest. Most know that not many had cell phones back then and then were not very small at least the one I had.

[tv]

I am getting sick and tired of seeing GreenIce post lie after lie after lie.

Posting that Nicole and Faye had cell phones is just one of the latest. Most know that not many had cell phones back then and then were not very small at least the one I had.

It's the old 'throw it against the wall and see if it sticks' ploy. Fortunately, it's not working very well. ;)

Back in 1994, I couldn't imagine ever wanting or having a cell phone -- now what would I do without it?

[martin II]

I am getting sick and tired of seeing GreenIce post lie after lie after lie.

Posting that Nicole and Faye had cell phones is just one of the latest. Most know that not many had cell phones back then and then were not very small at least the one I had.

You must have missed the moderators last post to the thread.

[tv]

Now we can't even point it out when someone is not telling the truth?:rolleyes: Good grief.

[martin II]

martin, it clearly says Carrie Bess made the comment.

oh
Carrie Bess said what Carrie Bess said.

[tv]

oh
Carrie Bess said what Carrie Bess said.

Apparently so.

[martin II]

Now we can't even point it out when someone is not telling the truth?:rolleyes: Good grief.

Tv

have you ever heard the saying that women hold anger against other women longer than men hold anger against other men?

[tv]

Tv

have you ever heard the saying that women hold anger against other women longer than men hold anger against other men?

Please make your point.

[martin II]

Now we can't even point it out when someone is not telling the truth?:rolleyes: Good grief.

i think rude post can get the thread closed again. what do you think?

[tv]

i think rude post can get the thread closed again. what do you think?

Please show me where I've been rude.

[martin II]

Please show me where I've been rude.

i never said you had now did i?

[Kate Sachel]

Any person that has abused drugs to the point that they have not been able to stop on their own needs to be detoxed. Many that go to these celebrity type rehab quicky non strict programs are the ones that find themselves making regular trips to various rehabs over and over again.

Faye had a long history of freebasing which means that she had a physical requirement for the drug and should have been in detox so as not to have cravings while she receives education on how to live without drugs.
Same is true for alcoholics.
Programs that allow the client to run the program are not successulf.imo

Whether those programs are successful is not the point. You questioned what kind of facility would allow Faye the freedom she had, and questioned why she was not in detox as though something sinister lies within it.

I simply provided you the answer.

Kate

[Hipcheck]

Tv

have you ever heard the saying that women hold anger against other women longer than men hold anger against other men?

Martin

Do you think that I am a woman? Because if you do then you would be wrong.

Hipcheck is a trem used in the sport of hockey.

[GreenIce]

The prosecution was all over the place on what they thought oj did

Clarke said oj jumped the fence dropped the glove ran out of the walkway with no mention of the closed gates

Furhman said oj parked the bronco walked up the driveway and into the south walkway,dropped the glove, ran back out and into his front door

Vanhatter said oj parked the bronco,walked up his driveway to his front door.

They could not get their story straight. it may be that the jury thought something was wrong since they could not get the story straight.

It was Kato that brought the gates into the picture and this helped to prove all three wrong.

The jury had made a fielkd trip to ojs house. They stated that they did njot believe Park could have seen all that he said he saw from where he was. the bushed and trees in front of the house was a problem. imo this is why they asked for the readback. Obviously they did not believe him as after the readback they voted not guilty.

Martin,

Actually, Clark has him walking into the alley as well and bouncing off of the AC unit into Kato's wall and dropping the glove. Remember, the DA's did not disupute Dr. Lee's testimony that no one jumped over the fence. She had no evidence to support that anyone climbed over the fence. In fact, she didn't want Simpson on the other side of the fence because if she did, the defense could also put MF behind that fence, right across from where the glove was found.

IMO, I think the jurors realized that both men did the best they could but both men were wrong on key points. I think what really hurt Park was what he should have heard and didn't.

[GreenIce]

It would certainly appear that way, again. :)

TV and FBG,

I have made it perfectly clear where this information came from. It came from Shelia Weller's book. In fact, in a chapter that she added after the book was published and after the criminal trial verdict, she explains about this wrong information and apologizes to her readers.

I have never posted that the alleged slashing of Nicole's breasts was ever true only that it was believed by Nicole's family and her friends. I also made it clear that misinformation like this is can a valuable tool to LE while investigating murders.

You both have been given the same warning on about this type of behavior and you have also been given the same solution on how to avoid this. I suggest you take suggestions to heart, put me on ignore and move on.

I have done what was suggested by DW. I have given you the source and you are more then welcome to check these books out.

[GreenIce]

If Golden was this much of a screw up in the past why was he still working in the coroners office and why did they assign him to do the autoposy in the first place.Why didn Dr L do it?

Martin,

Why did Ron Phillips call MF into the case? Why did Lange and Vanatter keep him on the case even after claiming that he was no longer on the case? Why did Vanatter undo everything MF did, according to MF's book? Why did Vanatter call Clark first about search warrant but not a judge?

Why was Clark warned off Dr. L, according to VB's book and she thought he "be okay"? Why was Michelle Kestler called in the criminal trial by the defense and not the DA's? Why did the DA's let Dennis Fung and AM get the stuffing kicked out of them by the defense? Why did AM testify like she was part arrogant zombie? Why did Clark not want the nurse anywhere near her witness stand and why did HG want to paint him like he had no clue what he was doing and he had no idea how much blood he drew?

I do always chuckle when people slam the DA's for the "mistakes" they perceive they made, IMO, the DA's did an awesome job and despite losing this case, walked away as heros, very, very rich heros.

[socaldiva]

Tv

have you ever heard the saying that women hold anger against other women longer than men hold anger against other men?

Aren't sexist remarks considered rude? :shrug:

[GreenIce]

I am getting sick and tired of seeing GreenIce post lie after lie after lie.

Posting that Nicole and Faye had cell phones is just one of the latest. Most know that not many had cell phones back then and then were not very small at least the one I had.

Hipcheck,

It is not a lie, Faye had a cell phone. I also posted that I did not know for sure if Nicole had a cell phone, however, because of her status, I assumed it was a very good possibility that she did. I also asked the question if her phone records were ever looked at, to include any cell phone records.

CR's interview is not clear if Nicole did have a cell phone, however, he did believe it was very possible that Faye used Nicole's phone to call for drugs. He uses the terms "mobile phone" to describe a cell phone--which happens to be common terms used by Europeans to describe cell phones.

You really should be careful on your hipchecks, you know as well as I do what a disaster they can be if they are not excuted perfectly!:)

[martin II]

Martin

Do you think that I am a woman? Because if you do then you would be wrong.

Hipcheck is a trem used in the sport of hockey.

hipcheck

My post about women was made to tv and she responded so why are you asking me if i thought you were a woman. Have i addressed you as a woman?

i don't play hockey.

[socaldiva]

*snip*
He uses the terms "mobile phone" to describe a cell phone--which happens to be common terms used by Europeans to describe cell phones.


I believe you are mistaken here. IIRC the portable phones of the 1990's were rather large & were referred to as mobile phones, whether you were European or not. Those phones did not have the compact size nor the reliability of today's cell phones imo. This was discussed many times on the OJ boards.

[GreenIce]

Golden testified about the adendum before the criminal trial so his testimony
was available

Goldens boss made statements that he Golden had made some 30 mistakes in his autopsy although Golden had done 5,000 autopsies. Since Goldens boss testified to a autopsy that he did not perform for some reason i have never had a lot of confidence in the report or the testimony.

obviously there was some static beetween Golden and his boss.

Vanhatter and lang were present but i have wondered why a rep of the defence was not.Were they notified when it was to be done or not?

Martin,

I don't think there was any static between Dr. Golden and his boss. I think there was static between Dr. Golden and his boss with the DA's office. IMO, reading the books written by the actual participants in the case, it became obvious that many of the state agencies do not work together, unless they are ganging up on the same agency, IMO. Was very surprised to read about some of this bickering in VA and Lange's book.

While Hank Goldberg's book is a dry read, he does explain a lot of the problems that plague SID's units as well as how some of the mistakes made in the Simpson case have brought out changes for the better.

[martin II]

One major problem for alcoholics and drug asddicts is denial.They all want
to go to liberal programs like the one fay was in so that they don't have to
be broken dowm to the zero point without all the trapping and are forced to do the hard work of dropping bad habits and learning to live drug free.
I don't see how a rehab program worth its salt would ever accept a longterm cocain addict like fay without requiring that she get the drug out of her system through detox.

if anyone belives otherwise good luck.

[GreenIce]

i don't know what kind of rehab faye was in but don;t think it anything but a drying out house that take the money and allow the clients to do what they please. i don't understand how she was able to make these phone calls after being in the rehab for less than a week.

How could she be in rehab without first doing 30 days in detox. most rehabs wont take people unless they hade been in detox.

Considering her long term use she should have been in a long term program.

Martin,

I think how the person enters the rehab really may play a role on how much freedom they have. If Faye volunteered to go into rehab, she may have been under different rules then someone who was court ordered into rehab. She was at the same one Charlie Sheen was in and he left it but his father went to the public and to the police to get him taken back to rehab.

I also rehabs may have different rules regarding contact from the outside world depending on what their experts believe to be what works the best. Just like everybody has a different "rock bottom", perhaps everybody also has different needs when it comes to rehabs---like having contact from family and friends.

In regards to Faye's contacting Nicole that night, we will never know what she called and who else she called that night because the rehab center would not release the telephone records. I don't know if her story was ever confirmed that she and Nicole were in fact having a great chat about Nicole's future and Nicole was "giggling". Without those phone records, at least for the timing, we have no way of proving if Faye is telling the truth. We also have no way of knowing is she is telling the truth about her drug debts and her usage at the time of the murders.

However, I do find it hard to believe that Faye was all happy and go lucky and she was talking to Nicole about Nicole's future, etc. Going through withdrawel has to be one of the painful things a person can through and I never seen where the person going through the withdrawel from cocaine was all that bright eyed bushy tailed and all full of hope. But, that is not to say that it is impossible either.

However, CR did say that he saw Faye that day or the day before the murders and she was still in rough shape.

When Faye was on Larry King Live with Kris Jenner after the criminal trial, they both said some interesting things but I haven't been able to track down the transcript.

I still think Dr. Ameli's phone call has been totally ignored and I think that is a mistake, IMO.

[GreenIce]

One major problem for alcoholics and drug asddicts is denial.They all want
to go to liberal programs like the one fay was in so that they don't have to
be broken dowm to the zero point without all the trapping and are forced to do the hard work of dropping bad habits and learning to live drug free.
I don't see how a rehab program worth its salt would ever accept a longterm cocain addict like fay without requiring that she get the drug out of her system through detox.

if anyone belives otherwise good luck.

Martin,

I think the key to rehab is that the person has to want to be clean, to be drug free. I never got that impression from Faye, she wouldn't even admit the truth about her problem. However, I have never heard of Faye relasping since the murders. Perhaps Nicole's death has kept her clean all these years?

[tv]

Aren't sexist remarks considered rude? :shrug:

Hi socal. :) Apparently, I'm supposed to look over anything that is said to me because of being a woman. I reserve the right to be angy at anyone that has repeatedly called me a racist. Perhaps martin would like to kiss and make up with Joseph Bell. ;)

[tv]

TV and FBG,

I have made it perfectly clear where this information came from. It came from Shelia Weller's book. In fact, in a chapter that she added after the book was published and after the criminal trial verdict, she explains about this wrong information and apologizes to her readers.

I have never posted that the alleged slashing of Nicole's breasts was ever true only that it was believed by Nicole's family and her friends. I also made it clear that misinformation like this is can a valuable tool to LE while investigating murders.

You both have been given the same warning on about this type of behavior and you have also been given the same solution on how to avoid this. I suggest you take suggestions to heart, put me on ignore and move on.

I have done what was suggested by DW. I have given you the source and you are more then welcome to check these books out.

Posting a counter-argument is not any 'type of behavior'. The entire forum was warned because you called others racists and used racial slurs. You're the only one with deleted posts. Weezer and I have been posting in accordance with the rules of the forum since DW reopened the thread and that's what we'll continue to do. If you don't like your claims challenged I suggest you follow your own advice.

[serpentsfall]

SF,

I agree Mr. Brown had no obligaligation to these men.

However, who did have legal and moral obligations with regards to these phone records? It was Bill Hodgeman and the DA's. If those records showed 11:00 p.m. phone call either to or from Nicole's home, isn't this exclupatory evidence and shouldn't this have been turned over to the defense?

IMO, the DA's shifted their obligation onto the Browns--this is wrong, IMO.

The issue with Mr. Brown refusing to release his phone records to the Johnsons came up long after the trial was over. He did turn his records over to authorities who had a legal need to have them. The defense would have received a copy as part of discovery; the defense wouldn't have stipulated to the times of the calls unless they had seen the records and agreed. The reason for stipulations is to save time not contesting things that can be easily proven. At one point the defense suggested a different time for a call and Clark deferred agreeing to stipulate until she had checked her records. The DA's didn't shift any obligation onto the Browns; OJ had a very competent legal team whose job it was to be sure they reviewed every bit of evidence put forth by the prosecution.

[GreenIce]

The issue with Mr. Brown refusing to release his phone records to the Johnsons came up long after the trial was over. He did turn his records over to authorities who had a legal need to have them. The defense would have received a copy as part of discovery; the defense wouldn't have stipulated to the times of the calls unless they had seen the records and agreed. The reason for stipulations is to save time not contesting things that can be easily proven. At one point the defense suggested a different time for a call and Clark deferred agreeing to stipulate until she had checked her records. The DA's didn't shift any obligation onto the Browns; OJ had a very competent legal team whose job it was to be sure they reviewed every bit of evidence put forth by the prosecution.

SF,

My point is that Bill Hodgeman took control of phone records that were not shown to the defense. Whatever records the DA's ceased or received during the course of the trial should have been turned over and apparently these were not. It should not have mattered that the defense had stipulated to another phone record, if the DA's came across others during the course of the investigation. IMO, that is withholding evidence.

The first time I believe was 10:17 p.m. and I am unsure of what records Robert Shapiro was looking at. However, the fact is that a phone call could have been made from the Brown home to Nicole's and there is no way to prove that it was Judy Brown who made that call at that time. She did give the 11:00 p.m. time frame several times and she was asked how she knew it what time it was and the questions was not when was the last time you called Nicole's home, it was when was the last time you spoke to Nicole. If Nicole called her mother at that time, then her mother's phones records would not necessarly have this call documented.

What is interesting is that no one from the phone company ever validated the records.

[socaldiva]

No offense Greenice, but I can't believe you are trying to resurrect this tired topic. Those phone records were posted about so many times in the past. Don't you remember? Several posters explained this multiple times.

[weezer]

anybody but me find it silly that anyone would think the defense accepted a 'piece' of evidence to stipulate to? of course the defense saw the complete phone record. both the defense and prosecution stipulated to the accuracy of the times as documented on the bill.

[weezer]

a real stretch of the imagination to say that the 10:17 call was made by someone other than JB. I guess that person called the Mezzaluna also. hmmmm what a coincidence that someone using the Browns' phone called the Mezzaluna and then called Nicole while the Browns' were alledgedly still traveling from Brentwood to Dana Pointe. I 'guess' it could have happened -- just can't imagine why it would happen. :confused:

[weezer]

it seems that two of our posters profess to having experience and/or knowledge regarding drug rehab. Kate, who really does have experience and knowledge via a relative, tried to enlighten the board to no avail. maybe we should just defer to the expertise of the two posters as to the rules etc., that they're most familiar with and we can just accept the testimony/evidence in the simpson trial that Faye did not go into detox, obviously did not have restricted phone use, and left after two weeks. ;)

[weezer]

I believe you are mistaken here. IIRC the portable phones of the 1990's were rather large & were referred to as mobile phones, whether you were European or not. Those phones did not have the compact size nor the reliability of today's cell phones imo. This was discussed many times on the OJ boards.

CR deposition:

". . .Q: Where was she?

A: She was off to the left walking around the living room.

Q: Was it a portable phone?

A: She was on a portable phone.

Q: Is it the same phone number as the one that you were using on the evening of June 12?

A: Was it the same phone number?

Q: Yes.

A: There are three phone numbers in the house that are ringing with that same phone number.

Q: And who called who?

A: I believe that it was O.J. calling Faye that evening. . ."

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

". . .Q: I thought you said it was a portable phone?

A: Right.

Q: But she put it in the kitchen?

A: Right. The base for the portable phone is in the kitchen. Then she plopped herself on the couch and she said, "He said he is going to kill her."

Q: What did you say?

A: I said, "What do you mean?"

Q: What did she say?

A: She said, "He is going to kill her if she keeps doing this driving him crazy."

Q: And what did you say? . ."

[weezer]

TV and FBG,

I have made it perfectly clear where this information came from. It came from Shelia Weller's book. In fact, in a chapter that she added after the book was published and after the criminal trial verdict, she explains about this wrong information and apologizes to her readers.

I have never posted that the alleged slashing of Nicole's breasts was ever true only that it was believed by Nicole's family and her friends. I also made it clear that misinformation like this is can a valuable tool to LE while investigating murders.

You both have been given the same warning on about this type of behavior and you have also been given the same solution on how to avoid this. I suggest you take suggestions to heart, put me on ignore and move on.

I have done what was suggested by DW. I have given you the source and you are more then welcome to check these books out.

why in the world post something that has been proven to be wrong? what was the point? it wasn't given out as information to anyone. it was never referred to by anyone.

are you insinuating that tv and I were singled out for a warning? you are mistaken, again. :punch:

[serpentsfall]

SF,

My point is that Bill Hodgeman took control of phone records that were not shown to the defense. Whatever records the DA's ceased or received during the course of the trial should have been turned over and apparently these were not. It should not have mattered that the defense had stipulated to another phone record, if the DA's came across others during the course of the investigation. IMO, that is withholding evidence.

The first time I believe was 10:17 p.m. and I am unsure of what records Robert Shapiro was looking at. However, the fact is that a phone call could have been made from the Brown home to Nicole's and there is no way to prove that it was Judy Brown who made that call at that time. She did give the 11:00 p.m. time frame several times and she was asked how she knew it what time it was and the questions was not when was the last time you called Nicole's home, it was when was the last time you spoke to Nicole. If Nicole called her mother at that time, then her mother's phones records would not necessarly have this call documented.

What is interesting is that no one from the phone company ever validated the records.

And you "know" that they were not turned over how? The records are turned over to the defense for review before any stipulations are made. And I think you have to remember to put things in context...if your daughter was found slaughtered, and your lost eyeglasses were found at the scene which indicates that's why another man was murdered with her, would it be so unreasonable to say, when giving a first statement to LE the next day that you talked to your daughter around 11:00 if it was actually around 10:30? I hardly think Juditha ran to check her phone records before talking to LE, and she wasn't under oath when she made her initial statements. 11 is after 10, after all so if you know for a fact it was some time after 10 I don't think its such a stretch to see why she'd say 11:00. The phone company wasn't needed to validate the records because the defense stipulated. There is no way the defense could count on MF's bigotry and blood evidence "contamination" to get OJ off...if they didn't have the records they would never have stipulated to the times that early in the trial.

[GreenIce]

And you "know" that they were not turned over how? The records are turned over to the defense for review before any stipulations are made. And I think you have to remember to put things in context...if your daughter was found slaughtered, and your lost eyeglasses were found at the scene which indicates that's why another man was murdered with her, would it be so unreasonable to say, when giving a first statement to LE the next day that you talked to your daughter around 11:00 if it was actually around 10:30? I hardly think Juditha ran to check her phone records before talking to LE, and she wasn't under oath when she made her initial statements. 11 is after 10, after all so if you know for a fact it was some time after 10 I don't think its such a stretch to see why she'd say 11:00. The phone company wasn't needed to validate the records because the defense stipulated. There is no way the defense could count on MF's bigotry and blood evidence "contamination" to get OJ off...if they didn't have the records they would never have stipulated to the times that early in the trial.


SF,

Why did Robert Shapiro made the stipulation that a 10:17 p.m. took place between Nicole and her mother?

What was Clark's reply to this stipulation?

And how did Clark brilliantly set Shapiro up on this issue? If you read the last day the prelim, hearing, you should be able to spot it. IMO.

[weezer]

not only did the criminal defense team stipulate that the Brown's phone record reflect the correct and accurate time, the civil defense team did the same thing in the civil trial. the Brown's telephone statement was accepted as true and accurate as to the time the calls were placed by everyone involved in both cases -- all of the attorneys, all of the witnesses, all of the judges, and both juries. ;)

[GreenIce]

From Prelim Hearing:

MR. SHAPIRO: We're going to ask for a stipulation
21 regarding the phone records that were presented in open
22 court from the phone call from Mrs. Brown to Nicole,
23 which I believe was at 10:17.
24 THE COURT: And is there -- is there going to be a
25 problem with that?
26 MS. CLARK: If that's what the records say, there
27 will be no problem with that.
28 But which record?
3
01 MR. SHAPIRO: Phone records from the telephone
02 company that you gave us.
03 MS. CLARK: I'm going to have to locate it. I'll
04 locate it and make sure.
05 THE COURT: With reference to defense exhibits that
06 were received for purposes of the motion only, do you
07 wish to offer any of those -- or will you be offering
08 any of those with regard to the case?
09 MR. SHAPIRO: Yes, yes. We'll be offering all of 10 them.
THE COURT: Okay. Let's see if there's anything else.
MS. CLARK: Counsel, just so I can make sure. You're saying it was a phone call from Nicole Brown to her mother or from the mother to Nicole?
MR. SHAPIRO: From the mother to Nicole.
THE COURT: Okay. Then I guess that's it. I just wanted to know where we stood. You can transcribe this, but until I'm sure about the stipulation, then this is sealed. If the stipulation is agreed to by everyone, then I don't have any problem with this portion of the transcript being released.

[GreenIce]

From the above post, it is clear that Robert Shapiro was given a phone record by the DA's that showed a 10:17 p.m. between the Brown home and Nicole's.

Marcia Clark cleverly makes it seem like she has no idea where this came from, that she has to "locate" it (these phone records were going to be entered into evidence and she has to "find them"?).

She also pins Shapiro's request down, phone records from mother to daughter. However, her obligation was turn over all phone records that included if there were more telephone records from the Brown home as well as Nicole's phone records if they showed a 10:17 phone call from daughter to mother.

However, the bottom line, is there appears to be more then 1 phone record involved in here. Remember G's, before you tear into this, Clark, herself is asking "which record?"

[weezer]

SF,

Why did Robert Shapiro made the stipulation that a 10:17 p.m. took place between Nicole and her mother?

What was Clark's reply to this stipulation?

And how did Clark brilliantly set Shapiro up on this issue? If you read the last day the prelim, hearing, you should be able to spot it. IMO.

for those without access to the prelim hearing transcript, I'm posting the relevant testimony from the last day (July 8). As you see, shapiro initiated the stipulation to the phone records and rather than automatically agree, Clark asked which record he was talking about (obviously thought he was not above slipping in a false document).

THE COURT: I don't expect you're going to present an affirmative defense?

MR. SHAPIRO: We're going to ask for a stipulation regarding the phone records that were presented in open court from the phone call from Mrs. Brown to Nicole, which I believe was at 10:17.

THE COURT: And is there -- is there going to be a problem with that?

MS. CLARK: If that's what the records say, there will be no problem with that. But which record?

MR. SHAPIRO: Phone records from the telephone company that you gave us.

MS. CLARK: I'm going to have to locate it. I'll locate it and make sure.

[serpentsfall]

From the above post, it is clear that Robert Shapiro was given a phone record by the DA's that showed a 10:17 p.m. between the Brown home and Nicole's.

Marcia Clark cleverly makes it seem like she has no idea where this came from, that she has to "locate" it (these phone records were going to be entered into evidence and she has to "find them"?).

She also pins Shapiro's request down, phone records from mother to daughter. However, her obligation was turn over all phone records that included if there were more telephone records from the Brown home as well as Nicole's phone records if they showed a 10:17 phone call from daughter to mother.

However, the bottom line, is there appears to be more then 1 phone record involved in here. Remember G's, before you tear into this, Clark, herself is asking "which record?"

Who was being clever?? Just because Shapiro attempts to makes a stipulation to the court based on what he "believes" was the time doesn't mean it was based on an actual record. Clark was asking which record all right...as in which "make-believe" record did he base THAT time on? "Which record" was a sarcastic remark by Clark, IMO. Attorneys aren't supposed to ask for stipulations based on what they "believe" the records show and she didn't fall into his trap. No wonder Cochran took over!

[weezer]

Who was being clever?? Just because Shapiro attempts to makes a stipulation to the court based on what he "believes" was the time doesn't mean it was based on an actual record. Clark was asking which record all right...as in which "make-believe" record did he base THAT time on? "Which record" was a sarcastic remark by Clark, IMO. Attorneys aren't supposed to ask for stipulations based on what they "believe" the records show and she didn't fall into his trap. No wonder Cochran took over!

I do think it was clever of Clark not to blindly accept any stipulation by the criminal defense without looking at exactly what was being proffered. She obviously didn't have the statement in front of her and said she would look for IT. why not make sure the criminal defense hadn't altered an original document and was trying to slip in the altered document? yep, clever and smart.

I also don't understand why someone would question which telephone records? IIRC, there were many telephone records/calls entered into evidence.

[GreenIce]

Who was being clever?? Just because Shapiro attempts to makes a stipulation to the court based on what he "believes" was the time doesn't mean it was based on an actual record. Clark was asking which record all right...as in which "make-believe" record did he base THAT time on? "Which record" was a sarcastic remark by Clark, IMO. Attorneys aren't supposed to ask for stipulations based on what they "believe" the records show and she didn't fall into his trap. No wonder Cochran took over!

SF,

Robert Shapiro based this time on a telephone record from the phone company that he received the DA's.

Clark asks "which record", which clear indicates that there is more then one.

Clark had no reason to be sarcastic.

Clark asked exactly what phone call it was, she wanted to be clear, was it mother to daughter and Shapiro said yes.

So are you saying that if there was a record that showed a 10:17 p.m. phone call daughter to mother that Clark was under no obligation to set the record straight?

Are you saying that Clark would never dream of burying any other records that did not match her timeline?

There is also a reference to meeting that Clark and Shapiro had with Judge Kennedy Powell on this issue on July 8, 1994.

If I am reading the court motion correctly, none of the phone records were ever introduced into evidence as exhibits. Which I am assuming a stipulation would mean that these did not have to be exhibts entered into evidence? I really don't know.

[weezer]

"A stipulation -- sometimes called a judicial admission -- is "an agreement, admission or concession made in a judicial proceeding by the parties thereto or their attorneys, in respect of some matter incident to the proceeding, for the purpose, ordinarily, of avoiding delay, trouble, and expense.". .

Among the matters subject to stipulations are witness credentials; the business record or other foundation for introduction of documents; distance; and the accuracy of a transcript. . . . When entering into a stipulation, counsel should be mindful of the formal, though simple, requisites for it to be binding. . ."

pretty stupid of the criminal defense to initiate the stipulation if they hadn't vetted the records. :punch:

[weezer]

there was more than one record as Clark so 'cleverly' pointed out:

MS. CLARK: Counsel, just so I can make sure. You're saying it was a phone call from Nicole Brown to her mother or from the mother to Nicole?

MR. SHAPIRO: From the mother to Nicole.

[weezer]

the actual phone records were never admitted into evidence -- the redacted and stipulated records were admitted. both the defense and the prosecution stipulated to the accuracy of the records. the jury was given the records.

no boogey man here.

[weezer]

SNIPPED * * *. . . Also, do you know why bile would be taken and examined in an autopsy case? It also makes no sense that Dr. Golden would toss the stomach contents of Nicole, since the detectives believed Simpson was the killer and needed all the help with the timeline as possible.

to help our conpiracy theorists regarding the disposition of the victims' stomach contents. Preliminary Hearing - July 8

Q Now, regarding the stomach contents, you say that was something important, that you used as a criteria for establishing the estimated time of death of the decedent nicole brown; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And I take it those stomach contents are materials that can be preserved for later analysis. Is that correct?

A Can be, yes.

Q And, in fact, on the forms that you use, there is a check box for toxicological specimens collected; isn't that correct?

A Yes.

Q Did you save the stomach contents?

A No.
----------------------------------
Q Do you have an opinion -- you observed the stomach contents of the decedent Mr. Goldman; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Did you save those?

A Yes.

Q Why did you save his and not save hers?

A Well, first of all, I did not think it was indicated to save the contents on nicole brown Simpson. It was important to measure it, characterize it and describe it; and I did not think it was indicated to save it for toxicological examination.
Of course, saving blood and other body fluids are very important for toxicological examination, which is what we did. The duty to characterize the gastric contents and measure it and describe what was in it is important, which is what I did.
On Mr. Goldman, again, blood and other body fluids were preserved. On him I was asked to save the gastric contents.

Q Who asked you to do that?

A My chief supervisor, Dr. lakshmanan.

[weezer]

just as an FYI re the bile being taken during an autopsy: Bile is useful in drug analysis.

[tv]

You mean the tossing of the stomach contents and the taking of the bile wasn't a grand conspiracy? Well, heck...I'm a little disappointed. :)

[GreenIce]

Easilly with highway construction and the resulting traffic and detours.Also map quest is not the most reliable/accurate driving instructions.

Martin,

I agree with you about Mapquest. Sometimes they are spot on and sometimes they aren't even close.

For some reason I always thought it was a 90 mile trip? However, did the defense or did the DA's ever have someone drive the route from the Mezzaluna to the Brown home? I know they did the drive from Bundy to Rockingham but I don't remember if this was ever introduced into evidence in the criminal trial.

Also, in Shelia Weller's book, she makes an interesting comment. She said that as soon as Judy Brown walked into the door, she called Nicole, having already called the Mezzaluna. So does that mean Judy Brown made a phone call while she was still in the car?

Also, didn't Judy Brown have a travel agency based out of her home? I wonder how many actual phone lines as in phone numbers went to the Brown home. I remember that Simpson had a private line to his children while he was in custody, but I don't know if that private line was an existing one? Lou Brown was a manager of car rental agency based in a hotel, I wonder if he had a cell phone at the time. I would assume that any cell phone that was used for business could be considered a business expense and perhaps that is how it was paid for?

[weezer]

interesting questions re phone lines in different homes. but since no evidence was submitted in either trial, we can assume they IF there were any, they proved of no consequence. :shrug:

I'm surprised that the NG's have shifted the incompetence focus from LE to the defense. ;)

[tv]

Testimony of Juditha Brown in civil trial on December 6, 1996 --

"...And as we arrived at home, I shook myself, and I thought, "God, I have to buy a pair of new glasses again." And I went on the phone and I called Mezzaluna."

Mrs. Brown did not call the Mezzaluna before arriving home.

[GreenIce]

Martin,

Any luck in finding out how Mrs. Brown got the number to the Mezzaluna?

Like I posted before, in Weller's book, how it is worded, it does seem to give the impression that she called the Mezzaluna before she entered the house.

Also, I wonder if Hertz provided car phones for their managers. At that time, I would think alot of their business would be based on people who spend a lot of time on the road, perhaps this was a selling point?

[weezer]

thought it might be interesting to see any difference in miles and/or time that the Browns traveled that night. This is from Yahoo:

Distance: 71.68 miles
Time: 1 hr 12 mins

[serpentsfall]

SF,

Robert Shapiro based this time on a telephone record from the phone company that he received the DA's.

Clark asks "which record", which clear indicates that there is more then one.

Clark had no reason to be sarcastic.

Clark asked exactly what phone call it was, she wanted to be clear, was it mother to daughter and Shapiro said yes.

So are you saying that if there was a record that showed a 10:17 p.m. phone call daughter to mother that Clark was under no obligation to set the record straight?

Are you saying that Clark would never dream of burying any other records that did not match her timeline?

There is also a reference to meeting that Clark and Shapiro had with Judge Kennedy Powell on this issue on July 8, 1994.

If I am reading the court motion correctly, none of the phone records were ever introduced into evidence as exhibits. Which I am assuming a stipulation would mean that these did not have to be exhibts entered into evidence? I really don't know.

I'm saying if Shapiro was reading the time from his copy of a phone record he could have handed it over to Clark and gotten the stipulation on record right then and there. He most likely was speaking from either a note or memory. If the 10:16 record was there Shapiro was the one who had it. He was the one offering the stipulation, so he could easily have backed it up. Clark said if that's what the records showed she'd agree. Apparently the records didn't agree. All Shapiro had to do was show Clark a phone record that said 10:16. Apparently he couldn't. People are human and make mistakes. There is a lot of info to absorb in this case and the preliminary hearing was early in the case when info was probably coming in fast and furious. It amazes me that people can't place things in context and want to hold everyone to 100% perfection 100% of the time in this case. I would think it more strange if every statement made in the case turned out to be 100% verifiably accuate.

[Kate Sachel]

There are several individuals on this forum who rely heavily on Wagner's site to support various thoughts, opinions, theories to support the belief of OJ's innocence.

Wagner has a lengthy posting on his site regarding the telephone records in which he states:

"The claim of a fraudulent phone bill can not concern the 9:37 and 9:40 times, since they are verified by other events/witnesses. It can only be claimed that the bill omits a later SECOND call by Juditha to Nicole, but there is no documented (or even anecdotal) reason to think that Juditha made a second call to her daughter on that Sunday night.

I think it is a great stretch to doubt the authenticity of this document."

Kate

[martin II]

Martin,

Any luck in finding out how Mrs. Brown got the number to the Mezzaluna?

Like I posted before, in Weller's book, how it is worded, it does seem to give the impression that she called the Mezzaluna before she entered the house.

Also, I wonder if Hertz provided car phones for their managers. At that time, I would think alot of their business would be based on people who spend a lot of time on the road, perhaps this was a selling point?

if she called the resturant before calling nicole i guess she used information.

OJ was responsible for lou getting a Hertz rental franchise to set him up in business., if lou still had the franchise i think he would have a mobile phone maby paid for by the franchise.

based on the CA highway department construction project on that highway it is difficult to get a accurate travel time.Le did not do a test drive on the highway on 6/13 so considering how traffic can be a small crawl during construction it is impossible to calculate how much time it took for the browns travel.
i would think that the browns had more than one phone in their house.

[weezer]

if she called the resturant before calling nicole i guess she used information. I'm sure you meant to say 'when' she called the restaurant before clalling Nicole' since that is exactly what all the evidence reflects.

OJ was responsible for lou getting a Hertz rental franchise to set him up in business., if lou still had the franchise i think he would have a mobile phone maby paid for by the franchise. are you thinking Mr. Brown had his Hertz office in a car? there is no evidence that Mr. Brown had a cell phone in any car and certainly not the car the family was driving in on the night orenthal murdered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

based on the CA highway department construction project on that highway it is difficult to get a accurate travel time.Le did not do a test drive on the highway on 6/13 so considering how traffic can be a small crawl during construction it is impossible to calculate how much time it took for the browns travel. there is no evidence that at 9p on a Sunday night in June that traffic was a small crawl whether or not there was construction. Anyone have any info on construction on that highway -- IF/where exactly it was and whether or not there were workers that night?
i would think that the browns had more than one phone in their house.

I'd almost bet the Browns had more than one phone in their house. ;)

[martin II]

good durg rehab is about changing lifestyles, drug education and attemps to solve personal/family problems.
Any person that has a long history of cocain or alcohol abuse cannot possible resolve these issues in two weeks.Two weeks is only time to dry out.

Those that op for the easy programs where they can do what they did on the outside are setting themselves for relaps.

People that op for the celebrity programs are the ones that have multiple relapses that make multiple trips to various rehabs as ther have relaps after relaps.

i experienced this with a cousin and a brother in law. one has been in sevearl easy prograns and the other had done the same until he finally opted for a long term program 18 month and he now has about 10 years drug free.

if faye, a long term cocain user spent only two weeks in that rehab my guess would that she has relapsed more than once.

[weezer]

I am certain martin can support his allegation about Faye's 'long term drug use' with a link as well as the allegation that she's relapsed more than once since that time. If he can't/doesn't post a link to support those allegations, we can all assume he was mistaken, again.

[GreenIce]

if she called the resturant before calling nicole i guess she used information.

OJ was responsible for lou getting a Hertz rental franchise to set him up in business., if lou still had the franchise i think he would have a mobile phone maby paid for by the franchise.

based on the CA highway department construction project on that highway it is difficult to get a accurate travel time.Le did not do a test drive on the highway on 6/13 so considering how traffic can be a small crawl during construction it is impossible to calculate how much time it took for the browns travel.
i would think that the browns had more than one phone in their house.

Martin,

If Mrs. Brown called information, then wouldn't that have been on her phone bill as well?

It is not the number of phones the Browns' had in their home, it was the number of telephone lines-as in telephone numbers. Both Mini and Denise were living at home at the time of the murders as well as the youngest daughter, Tonya.

Wasn't there still a lot of road damage from the earthquake that also led to the congestion of the highways? I still would love to know what the gated community security records showed for that night. People live in gated communities for privacy, which leads me to believe they have to somehow monitor the comings and goings of the residents.

Another interesting point, the Browns were at Nicole's home twice within 4 or 5 days, the last time, the day of the murders. Not one of them, at least as far was we know, were after asked if they saw any blood drops on the walkway.

[weezer]

Martin,

If Mrs. Brown called information, then wouldn't that have been on her phone bill as well? did someone testify that it wasn't?

It is not the number of phones the Browns' had in their home, it was the number of telephone lines-as in telephone numbers. Both Mini and Denise were living at home at the time of the murders as well as the youngest daughter, Tonya. the time of the calls to the Mezzaluna and Nicole by Mrs. Brown was stipulated to by the defense in both trials. in fact, it was the defense that initiated the stipulation.

Wasn't there still a lot of road damage from the earthquake that also led to the congestion of the highways? I still would love to know what the gated community security records showed for that night. People live in gated communities for privacy, which leads me to believe they have to somehow monitor the comings and goings of the residents. anyone read/hear/see anything on earthquake damage to the highway between Brentwood and Dana Pointe that would have led to congestion on that highway on a Sunday night in June? Please post a link to the Browns' gated community having a monitor on the comings and going of its residents.

Another interesting point, the Browns were at Nicole's home twice within 4 or 5 days, the last time, the day of the murders. Not one of them, at least as far was we know, were after asked if they saw any blood drops on the walkway.

and you would think they'd certainly notice the pools of blood and bloody size 12 pigeon-toed BM footprints on the walkway wouldn't you? :rolleyes:

[GreenIce]

good durg rehab is about changing lifestyles, drug education and attemps to solve personal/family problems.
Any person that has a long history of cocain or alcohol abuse cannot possible resolve these issues in two weeks.Two weeks is only time to dry out.

Those that op for the easy programs where they can do what they did on the outside are setting themselves for relaps.

People that op for the celebrity programs are the ones that have multiple relapses that make multiple trips to various rehabs as ther have relaps after relaps.

i experienced this with a cousin and a brother in law. one has been in sevearl easy prograns and the other had done the same until he finally opted for a long term program 18 month and he now has about 10 years drug free.

if faye, a long term cocain user spent only two weeks in that rehab my guess would that she has relapsed more than once.

Martin,

I don't even know that Faye did complete her stay at the rehab center. I don't think there was any way she could have been forced to stay if she was not under court order to do so.

I have never heard that she had relapsed since the murders, however, if she did, in all honestly, I don't see why that would be made public. IIRC, this was her third trip to rehab and if what I suspect is true, I am sure Nicole's murder was enough to keep her clean. While I do not support the reasons she gave for writing her book, I do believe that she was wise enough to keep her self off the witness stand and wise enough to keep her name in print to keep her alive. Any drug debts she had were probably paid off. Once these were paid off, she had no reason to fear for her life as well as another person was being blamed for it. It would have been fool move to knock her off while the majority of the country believed Simpson did it. IMO.

[weezer]

found this on the TIME website -- unsure of the date but it looks like it was a response to the upcoming civil trial. At any rate, I thought it was a great visual into orenthal's delusional world!

"Simpson claims the solution to the murders lies somewhere "in the world of Faye Resnick," yet his own world seems a far more treacherous and sinister one. In the "O.J. world" ex-wives beat themselves up, rassling is a noncontact sport, phone companies keep phony records every cop is a conspirator, all photos are doctored, cuts on the finger cause amnesia, blood has a travel agent and night golf is popular. Yikes! I wonder if agents Dana Scully and Fox Mulder from The X-Files know about this place." JOE BOLSTER Los Angeles

[martin II]

Why did JB make the comment about the 11 pm call more than once and then testify to something else.

[weezer]

Martin,

I don't even know that Faye did complete her stay at the rehab center. I don't think there was any way she could have been forced to stay if she was not under court order to do so. not only did she complete the treatment program, after the two weeks in the facility she participated in outpatient therapy.

I have never heard that she had relapsed since the murders, however, if she did, in all honestly, I don't see why that would be made public. oh we would have heard! IIRC, this was her third trip to rehab and if what I suspect is true, are you sure it was her third? I mean, you do have something to back up this allegation, right? I am sure Nicole's murder was enough to keep her clean. ha, I can see it now: orenthal saying to faye -- if you don't stay sober, I'll slit your throat just like I did Nicole's. While I do not support the reasons she gave for writing her book, I do believe that she was wise enough to keep her self off the witness stand and wise enough to keep her name in print to keep her alive. I've never believed her reasons for writing her book. I've always thought she was a bottom feeder who saw an opportunity make money off of Nicole's death. Any drug debts she had were probably paid off. Once these were paid off, she had no reason to fear for her life as well as another person was being blamed for it. and she was able to support her daughter -- go figure -- it looks like a win/win. It would have been fool move to knock her off while the majority of the country believed Simpson did it. IMO.

no problem -- the fool was in jail. ;)

[martin II]

Martin,

I don't even know that Faye did complete her stay at the rehab center. I don't think there was any way she could have been forced to stay if she was not under court order to do so.

I have never heard that she had relapsed since the murders, however, if she did, in all honestly, I don't see why that would be made public. IIRC, this was her third trip to rehab and if what I suspect is true, I am sure Nicole's murder was enough to keep her clean. While I do not support the reasons she gave for writing her book, I do believe that she was wise enough to keep her self off the witness stand and wise enough to keep her name in print to keep her alive. Any drug debts she had were probably paid off. Once these were paid off, she had no reason to fear for her life as well as another person was being blamed for it. It would have been fool move to knock her off while the majority of the country believed Simpson did it. IMO.


Some believe that faye ran to rehab to evade dealers she owed money to.

if they were paid off by someone then she could leave the rehab. the fact that she only spent two weeks or less indicates that she was not that interested in kicking that hugh habit she had. It seems she was just using the porotection of the rehab for the moment.
She tesitifed that she called nicole at about 9 pm and was on the phone for 30 minutes.so when did oj, JB. the Doctor for his kid and the abuse lady have a chance to talk to nicole.imo

The only person that knows how many relapses faye has had is faye.

[weezer]

Why did JB make the comment about the 11 pm call more than once and then testify to something else.

she didn't. :shrug:

[tv]

Some believe that faye ran to rehab to evade dealers she owed money to.

if they were paid off by someone then she could leave the rehab. the fact that she only spent two weeks or less indicates that she was not that interested in kicking that hugh habit she had. It seems she was just using the porotection of the rehab for the moment.
She tesitifed that she called nicole at about 9 pm and was on the phone for 30 minutes.so when did oj, JB. the Doctor for his kid and the abuse lady have a chance to talk to nicole.imo

Faye went into rehab as the result of an intervention by her friends and was resistant to going. How do you figure she was using rehab for 'protection' when it wasn't even her idea to go?

[tv]

she didn't. :shrug:

Does anyone have any documentation that she made this claim once, twice or a million times? Her court testimony is what is important. It's amusing that Juditha Brown is expected to have a perfect memory after finding out that her daughter has been brutally murdered but OJ Simpson can say he doesn't recall how he got a serious injury on the middle finger of his left hand at the same time as the murders and it's okay. :rolleyes:

[weezer]

Some believe that faye ran to rehab to evade dealers she owed money to. and most reasonable thinking people don't.

if they were paid off by someone then she could leave the rehab. the fact that she only spent two weeks or less indicates that she was not that interested in kicking that hugh habit she had. It seems she was just using the porotection of the rehab for the moment. she was in rehab because people who cared about her intervened. She completed rehab and as far as anything I can find on her, has not needed to go back.
She tesitifed that she called nicole at about 9 pm and was on the phone for 30 minutes.so when did oj, JB. the Doctor for his kid and the abuse lady have a chance to talk to nicole.imo obviously they did as supported by telephone records and witness testimony.

the only people faye had to fear was orenthal and ac.

[martin II]

The only thing faye was supporting when she lived at nicoles was her hugh habit. maby with loans by nicole.

[weezer]

The only thing faye was supporting when she lived at nicoles was her hugh habit. maby with loans by nicole.

for the whole six (6) days? LOL

[martin II]

Faye went into rehab as the result of an intervention by her friends and was resistant to going. How do you figure she was using rehab for 'protection' when it wasn't even her idea to go?

Faye was just faking. she also put the suggestion to nicole that she would go to rehab if nicole would go into rehab with her.Why would she think nicole needed to go to rehab.

[weezer]

Faye was just faking. she also put the suggestion to nicole that she would go to rehab if nicole would go into rehab with her.Why would she think nicole needed to go to rehab.

apparently faye is needy -- maybe she didn't want to go alone; i.e., "I can't go by myself. You go with me."

she should have asked orenthal -- evidently he's the one with the drug problem. :eek:

[martin II]

Why was fayes child not living with her at nicoles.

[martin II]

faye knew that the rehab would not admit a person unless that person was a active adict. so why suggest that nicole should go to rehab for what she was going for. Did she believe that nicole was active also and why?

[GreenIce]

Why did JB make the comment about the 11 pm call more than once and then testify to something else.

Martin,

Yes, in Shapiro's book and to Claudine Radcliff. I haven't look at the other books for this.

However, in Shelia Weller's book, the way it is worded, it appears that she had called the Mezzaluna while not inside her home. At least that is how I read it.

[GreenIce]

Why was fayes child not living with her at nicoles.

Martin,

Faye's child was adopted by her ex husband Paul. It looks like CR called Paul and let him know that Faye was out of control and I think the daughter went to stay with her father. From CR's depo, the daughter did have a room in his house but there isn't enough to say to determine who the primary custodian was.

[GreenIce]

The only thing faye was supporting when she lived at nicoles was her hugh habit. maby with loans by nicole.

Martin,

IMO, Faye did attempt to paint Nicole has having her own addiction problems. However, there has never been any evidence to suggest that Nicole had a problem with drugs. Alcohol, well that was another issue.

I have posted many times I believe Faye may have been using Nicole as her "bank" to her drug dealers. I am pretty sure that Nicole's finances were well known to Faye and Faye probably knew she could use Nicole's status as Simpson's wife. Remember, during this time, they were still trying to make it work and even if Faye knew it wasn't working out, that didn't mean she told her dealers the truth. Why would she?

[martin II]

Martin,

Faye's child was adopted by her ex husband Paul. It looks like CR called Paul and let him know that Faye was out of control and I think the daughter went to stay with her father. From CR's depo, the daughter did have a room in his house but there isn't enough to say to determine who the primary custodian was.

As i thought faye had to habit before she went to nicoles.Thats why CR put her out.So it was the ex that was supporting the child. not faye.

[weezer]

just to put this latest discussion in perspective:

"Simpson Judge Bars Use Of Drug-Killing Theory
By DAVID MARGOLICK
Published: Friday, July 14, 1995
Judge Lance A. Ito today barred O. J. Simpson's lawyers from advancing their theory, which he called "highly speculative," that Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald L. Goldman were killed by drug dealers whose real target was Faye Resnick, Mrs. Simpson's friend and, for a time, an admitted cocaine user.

Under a 1986 ruling by the California Supreme Court, evidence that a third party killed someone cannot be used without "direct or circumstantial evidence" tying that person to the crime. In curbing the upcoming testimony of Christian Reichardt, a Beverly Hills chiropractor and Ms. Resnick's former fiance, Judge Ito said the defense had furnished no such evidence.

Defense lawyers had suggested that Ms. Resnick, who has acknowledged using cocaine during a short stay with Mrs. Simpson a week before the killings on June 12, 1994, had failed to pay her drug debts, and that drug dealers had come to Mrs. Simpson's condominium at 875 South Bundy Drive to deliver a "Colombian necktie," in which a victim's throat is slashed and his tongue may be pulled through the wound.

But Mr. Simpson's lawyers, who now say they will not call Mr. Reichardt as a witness, had never offered any evidence to support that theory. Deputy District Attorney Cheri Lewis said today that Ms. Resnick's drug use was merely "a nickel-and-dime habit," and called the idea that drug dealers had mistakenly killed Mrs. Simpson and Mr. Goldman in her place "tortured" and "absurd" speculation.

"None of this evidence in the entire trial warrants finding that there's evidence actually linking anybody other than the defendant, Orenthal James Simpson, to these murders," she told Judge Ito. "It's just not there. No matter how much Mr. Cochran and the other defense team members would try and weave that spin in front of the jury, it just does not survive."

[tv]

Faye was just faking. she also put the suggestion to nicole that she would go to rehab if nicole would go into rehab with her.Why would she think nicole needed to go to rehab.

Faking what -- drug addiction? As for wanting Nicole to go you seem to think someone who's mind is altered by drugs is thinking straight. I'm sure you know better.

Nicole didn't have any illegal substances in her system the night she was killed. Faye lived with her for 6 days so that's puts to rest the allegation that she and Faye were drugging together during that time.

[martin II]

Faking what -- drug addiction? As for wanting Nicole to go you seem to think someone who's mind is altered by drugs is thinking straight. I'm sure you know better.

Nicole didn't have any illegal substances in her system the night she was killed. Faye lived with her for 6 days so that's puts to rest the allegation that she and Faye were drugging together during that time.

Fay is the person that made the claim that nicole had freebased with her at nicoles house.Faye had a drug problem before she moved to nicoles.Faye is the person that thought that nicole should also go to drug rehab.

based on some of her responses in her testimony she may have still been using when she testified and when she spoke to nicole on 6/12

[weezer]

Fay is the person that made the claim that nicole had freebased with her at nicoles house.Faye had a drug problem before she moved to nicoles.Faye is the person that thought that nicole should also go to drug rehab.

and don't forget that faye is the one that told CR that orenthal said he was going to kill Nicole.

Now out of everything martin and I posted, let's do a process of elimination:

faye claimed Nicole freebased with her. :no: Fact: no drugs in Nicole's system on the night orenthal murdered her.

Faye had a drug problem before she moved to nicoles. :shrug:

Faye is the person that thought that nicole should also go to drug rehab. :no: Fact: on the night orenthal james simpson butchered Nicole Brown, there were no drugs in her system.

faye told CR that orenthal was going to kill Nicole. Fact: Nicole was murdered and orenthal's hair, blood, hat, fiber, hat, glove, and size 12 pigeon-toed BM footprints were at the murder scene.

[weezer]

looks like the NG's can't make up their minds about poor faye -- it's almost laughable. faye is faking drug addiction -- faye was still using on 6/12. . riiiight

[tv]

looks like the NG's can't make up their minds about poor faye -- it's almost laughable. faye is faking drug addiction -- faye was still using on 6/12. . riiiight

Faye didn't ever need rehab again...Faye was still using drugs when she testified...faye ran to the rehab for protection...Faye had to be forced into rehab...Nicole didn't like Faye using drugs at her house...Nicole used drugs with Faye at her house. :confused:

[weezer]

Faye didn't ever need rehab again...Faye was still using drugs when she testified...faye ran to the rehab for protection...Faye had to be forced into rehab...Nicole didn't like Faye using drugs at her house...Nicole used drugs with Faye at her house. :confused:

exactly! you'd think the discussion would be about orenthal's drug habits and the fact that he was the one with drugs in his system on the night he murdered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. :eek:

[tv]

exactly! you'd think the discussion would be about orenthal's drug habits and the fact that he was the one with drugs in his system on the night he murdered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. :eek:

For some reason, for the NGs, the unproven rumors about Faye and Nicole are more relevant to the murders than the prime suspect having an illegal substance in his system the next day. :shrug:

[martin II]

nicole not having drugs,cocain, in her system on 6/13-6/14 means that she had not used drugs 24/48 hours before her death,

[GreenIce]

nicole not having drugs,cocain, in her system on 6/13-6/14 means that she had not used drugs 24/48 hours before her death,

Martin,

First off, do we even know if Nicole or Ron's reference samples were tested for drugs of any kind?

Second, if Ron and Nicole were involved with drugs, that does not mean they were users.

Third, Nicole's friendships with Faye and perhaps Ron could have led people to believe that she was involved in drugs as well. At least with Faye, since there is no proof of how much cocaine she was doing before she went into rehab, I can see where she would say that Nicole was doing them with her, only to minimize her own relapse.

From what I have read, Nicole knew the danagers of addiction, and at the very most, may have been an occassional user of cocaine. However, I don't remember anyone saying that they saw her do drugs except for Faye. Again, someone else may have said they saw her but I don't remember anyone else.

I do remember that changes in Nicole were very drastic and at least 3 people who says they were very close to her felt she was spinning out of control. I don't remember Faye ever making that comment or comments like that.

While I believe cocaine is a very addictive drug, I believe the money that can be made from it could become even more addictive then the drug itself. Again, IMO. However, there is nothing that I have read where Nicole was in a place where she would even consider that route. She still had quite a bit of money left, she was displaying a lot of ambition to make it on her own and support herself and her children the same lifestyle that they had when they lived at Rockingham. Nicole was very talented in many areas and she had some successes in a few different areas. I think Nicole wanted her freedom to make her own mark, I think she wanted independence more then anything else.

[GreenIce]

nicole not having drugs,cocain, in her system on 6/13-6/14 means that she had not used drugs 24/48 hours before her death,

Martin,

As far as I know, on CR ever went on the record regarding Faye's drug abuse. Yet, the Jenners', her ex, Paul and I think a another couple of Faye's friends were there, long with Nicole. I wonder if any of them were ever asked about their knowledge of Faye's drug habits leading up to her going into rehab.

Did any of these friends ever give statements to the police on this? I wonder of Faye ever went to any of them for money or if Nicole ever called any of them and said that she had to kick Faye and why she had to do it.

Also, who else went to see Faye in rehab and who else did she call besides Nicole that day?

[tv]

nicole not having drugs,cocain, in her system on 6/13-6/14 means that she had not used drugs 24/48 hours before her death,

Not true. Cocaine stays in the blood up to 72 hours, in the urine 1 to 3 days. Whatever was in her system on 6/13 or 6/14 was there when she was murdered the evening of 6/12. Chronic use can show up for up to 12 weeks. We know for sure that OJ Simpson was using illegal drugs around that time but all you have with Nicole is innuendo and rumor.

[GreenIce]

Faye was just faking. she also put the suggestion to nicole that she would go to rehab if nicole would go into rehab with her.Why would she think nicole needed to go to rehab.

Martin,

I think I know what you mean about Faye faking---she was faking or playing up Nicole's own "addictions", some how to make it seem like Nicole was in just as deep as she was. Have I got that right?

[GreenIce]

SF,

In regards to the telephone records and the 10:17 p.m. phone call. There was another hearing Shapiro and Clark had with the judge on July 8. I don't know if the transcripts of that hearing has ever been made public and perhaps during that hearing, it was discussed how Shapiro got that time in error. It could have been a simple mistake or misunderstanding.

However, for me, following this trial and reading all the material that I have on this case, the white hats the DA's always wore in my view of the legal system is no longer white. It became clear to me that winning, by any means possible is just as much the goal of the DA's as it has always been attributed to the defense.

I don't think "truth" is the major goal of either side and I don't believe that justice means that you can use any means to get it. IMO, it seems that when ever a person is aquitted, the person always "walks", giving the impression that the person really is guilty but they "walked" because of errors made by the DA's or the jury made a mistake. I think it is fair to say that we all have heard how hard it is for DA's to to prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt and that any "slight" infractions committed by them or LE or the crime lab, etc., are done because it is just so hard to for these agencies to play the rules, that the defendant has all the "rights".

However, I think it is important to remember that defendants have all these rights because of past abuses of power by these agencies. There are valid reasons why we have rules of evidence. While our system, IMO, is the best in the world and is based on true American values of fairness, it is obvious that the state is just as capable and has even more power to abuse the system then any defense lawyer ever could.

I also think it is fair to say that many defense lawyers became defense lawyers because of the abuses they saw while working on the DA's side of the isle. I think it is unfair to say that the only slimely and devious lawyers in our system are defense lawyers. I also think it is unfair to say that every single judge who has taken the bench is the paragon of truth.

Again, IMO.

[martin II]

Martin,

As far as I know, on CR ever went on the record regarding Faye's drug abuse. Yet, the Jenners', her ex, Paul and I think a another couple of Faye's friends were there, long with Nicole. I wonder if any of them were ever asked about their knowledge of Faye's drug habits leading up to her going into rehab.

Did any of these friends ever give statements to the police on this? I wonder of Faye ever went to any of them for money or if Nicole ever called any of them and said that she had to kick Faye and why she had to do it.

Also, who else went to see Faye in rehab and who else did she call besides Nicole that day?

i believe CR kicked faye out because of drug use at his condo before she went to nicoles.i also remember the note nicole wrote to Cora stating that did not like the friends that came to her house to see faye.this and nicoles habit caused nicole to organized the intervention because she knew faye out of contro needed help and she needed to get her out of her house.
who wants to have a person freebassing coke in their house. no one but maby another adict.
i have heard of a 10 day detox but never a 10 daqy drug rehab.

[martin II]

Martin,

I think I know what you mean about Faye faking---she was faking or playing up Nicole's own "addictions", some how to make it seem like Nicole was in just as deep as she was. Have I got that right?

That sound like what her motivation would be.i don't think that no person,even a addict would believe a non user would be able to get into a rehab.

[martin II]

Not true. Cocaine stays in the blood up to 72 hours, in the urine 1 to 3 days. Whatever was in her system on 6/13 or 6/14 was there when she was murdered the evening of 6/12. Chronic use can show up for up to 12 weeks. We know for sure that OJ Simpson was using illegal drugs around that time but all you have with Nicole is innuendo and rumor.

48 72 is about the same. it depends on the individuals kidney function.that is if urin or bloood is the sample.

[martin II]

Not true. Cocaine stays in the blood up to 72 hours, in the urine 1 to 3 days. Whatever was in her system on 6/13 or 6/14 was there when she was murdered the evening of 6/12. Chronic use can show up for up to 12 weeks. We know for sure that OJ Simpson was using illegal drugs around that time but all you have with Nicole is innuendo and rumor.

Are you suggesting that because oj MAy have had traces of marijuana in his stem on 6/13 that this is proof that he killed nicole??

If you know for sure what oj had in his system on 6/13 then you must have the link to the results of the drug test so just go on and post it now. its ok.
there was no report about drug test in the autopsy report. so where is the official drug test report.

[Kate Sachel]

Martin,

I don't even know that Faye did complete her stay at the rehab center. I don't think there was any way she could have been forced to stay if she was not under court order to do so.

I have never heard that she had relapsed since the murders, however, if she did, in all honestly, I don't see why that would be made public. IIRC, this was her third trip to rehab and if what I suspect is true, I am sure Nicole's murder was enough to keep her clean. While I do not support the reasons she gave for writing her book, I do believe that she was wise enough to keep her self off the witness stand and wise enough to keep her name in print to keep her alive. Any drug debts she had were probably paid off. Once these were paid off, she had no reason to fear for her life as well as another person was being blamed for it. It would have been fool move to knock her off while the majority of the country believed Simpson did it. IMO.

Please refer to Faye's deposition in which IRS records show that she made a combined total of $193,000.00 from both books that she wrote (Private Diary and Shattered).

I assume we are all aware that is not a great deal of money made over a two year time period in the city of Los Angeles and with a lifestyle such as Faye's.

Interesting how that nasty little drug debt of hers is continuously brought in despite the fact that no proof has ever been offered to support the notion of that nasty little drug debt.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

Martin,

If Mrs. Brown called information, then wouldn't that have been on her phone bill as well?

It is not the number of phones the Browns' had in their home, it was the number of telephone lines-as in telephone numbers. Both Mini and Denise were living at home at the time of the murders as well as the youngest daughter, Tonya.

Wasn't there still a lot of road damage from the earthquake that also led to the congestion of the highways? I still would love to know what the gated community security records showed for that night. People live in gated communities for privacy, which leads me to believe they have to somehow monitor the comings and goings of the residents.

Another interesting point, the Browns were at Nicole's home twice within 4 or 5 days, the last time, the day of the murders. Not one of them, at least as far was we know, were after asked if they saw any blood drops on the walkway.

I personally live in a gated community, and have lived in gated communities all of my life. The community I resided in while growing up had television monitors for security at the entrance and exit areas, as well as around the community. The one in which I currently reside does not.

Kate

[martin II]

his system

[tv]

Are you suggesting that because oj MAy have had traces of marijuana in his stem on 6/13 that this is proof that he killed nicole??

If you know for sure what oj had in his system on 6/13 then you must have the link to the results of the drug test so just go on and post it now. its ok.
there was no report about drug test in the autopsy report. so where is the official drug test report.

If I thought the marijuana in OJ Simpson's system proved that he killed Ron and Nicole I would say so.

Here is the testimony on Nicole's toxicology:

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, the last factor in this ideal protocol calls for an evaluation of the prior medical and psychological status and related medications and drugs. I assume of the decedent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does that have any application to this case of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because she didn't die from a drug overdose and there's no indication that she was on drugs when we did the autopsy and the toxicology screen is also negative.

THE COURT: 2:30.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And the toxicology screen is also negative.

[tv]

I personally live in a gated community, and have lived in gated communities all of my life. The community I resided in while growing up had television monitors for security at the entrance and exit areas, as well as around the community. The one in which I currently reside does not.

Kate

Thanks, Kate. Your experience with gated communities shows that all the situations surrounding this case have to be evaluated on an individual basis just like Faye's rehab stay.

[martin II]

At CR house FAYE did not work and she did not work while at nicoles.yet she was freebasing cocain. one of the most expensive drug habits.i have read where this habit could cost as much as $1,000 or more a day.
if she had no known income or money loaned or given to her i see no other way she could have paid for this habit other than credit from her pusher.
i don't think she was stealing from retail stores.

[martin II]

Thanks, Kate. Your experience with gated communities shows that all the situations surrounding this case have to be evaluated on an individual basis just like Faye's rehab stay.

many up scale gated communities have a guard booth and a guard at the gate
to monitor people comming and going. most have intercons to get approval of a visitor from a resident. i guess it depends on the quality of the gated community but i have been to many where one has to pass a guard to gain intrance. i have no idea what kind of gated community lou lived in.

[martin II]

If I thought the marijuana in OJ Simpson's system proved that he killed Ron and Nicole I would say so.

Here is the testimony on Nicole's toxicology:

MR. KELBERG: Doctor, the last factor in this ideal protocol calls for an evaluation of the prior medical and psychological status and related medications and drugs. I assume of the decedent?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Yes.

MR. KELBERG: Does that have any application to this case of Nicole Brown Simpson?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: No.

MR. KELBERG: Why not?

DR. LAKSHMANAN: Because she didn't die from a drug overdose and there's no indication that she was on drugs when we did the autopsy and the toxicology screen is also negative.

THE COURT: 2:30.

DR. LAKSHMANAN: And the toxicology screen is also negative.



ok
i am interested in a drug screen that shows oj had drugs in his system as you said he had.

you can post that to prove your post.

[tv]

ok
i am interested in a drug screen that shows oj had drugs in his system as you said he had.

you can post that to prove your post.

It's considered common knowledge that the toxicology report from blood taken from OJ Simpson on June 13, 1994 showed that he had THC in his system the day after the murders. You're welcome to look for it but I'm not inclined to go on a mission for it today.

[Kate Sachel]

At CR house FAYE did not work and she did not work while at nicoles.yet she was freebasing cocain. one of the most expensive drug habits.i have read where this habit could cost as much as $1,000 or more a day.
if she had no known income or money loaned or given to her i see no other way she could have paid for this habit other than credit from her pusher.
i don't think she was stealing from retail stores.

Faye Resnick did work while living with Christian - she worked in his chiropractic office as a matter of fact. In fact, she was employed there still after Nicole's murder.

Let me speak for a moment about the costs of cocaine. Back in the mid nineties, cocaine sold for approximately anywhere between $20.00 to $50.00 per gram and the average amount of cocaine in a "line" is about 75 miligrams. You can inhale many lines of cocaine with only one gram.

Faye claims to have relapsed for approximately one week prior to Nicole's death. Now, Faye apparently smoked her cocaine (free-based) which would normally require a higher quality of cocaine, more pure rather than being cut with cornstarch or several of the other ingredients that a lesser quality of cocaine is cut with, but if you know the right people you can still purchase a higher quality cocaine at $75.00 to $100.00 per gram.

That being said, while cocaine has the capability of being an extremely expensive addiction, if you are not using large dosages per usage and have been using for only a week or two you can certainly do so without spending thousands of dollars.

In addition, are aware that Faye Resnick actually loaned some twenty thousand dollars to a friend of Christian's, and that she had an additional twenty thousand dollars in her bank savings account?

Kate

[martin II]

It's considered common knowledge that the toxicology report from blood taken from OJ Simpson on June 13, 1994 showed that he had THC in his system the day after the murders. You're welcome to look for it but I'm not inclined to go on a mission for it today.

ok
i understand. you HAVE NO PROOF to back up your claim that oj had drugs in his system on 6/13. :cool:

[martin II]

a person can use $100 $200 of coke in a few draws on that pipe. otherwise in a minute or two and it is common knowledge that freebaser don't stop until there is no money left.
but people are free to state their opinions on the issue.But freebasers will smoke any quality of coke.

[weezer]

I'm not sure why this is even being argued since we all know that faye wasn't the murderer. ONLY orenthal james simpson tested positive for drugs! :shrug:

[Kate Sachel]

a person can use $100 $200 of coke in a few draws on that pipe. otherwise in a minute or two and it is common knowledge that freebaser don't stop until there is no money left.
but people are free to state their opinions on the issue.But freebasers will smoke any quality of coke.

And there are those of us who will surpass others and state actual facts, such as the facts I stated regarding cocaine expenses and use. If anyone cares to research, which I doubt you personally have any desire to do, you will find all of the information that substantiates my statements as fact rather than opinion.

My mother was a cocaine addict and I was a cocaine user personally for a period of time between the age of 16 and 20 years old. I can attest personally to the costs and to the average uses.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

I'm not sure why this is even being argued since we all know that faye wasn't the murderer. ONLY orenthal james simpson tested positive for drugs! :shrug:

It's being argued because there are some who, in a rather obnoxious and delusional effort to place blame on anyone other than OJ Simpson for anything that has ever occurred negatively in the life of OJ Simpson, have to believe that a cocaine habit clears the bank and thus Faye absolutely must have been in drug debt with Columbian dealers who in turn targeted her for murder, but instead accidentally murdered her best friend Nicole and also Ron Goldman.

I can only shake my head.

Kate

[weezer]

looks like orenthal was worried about his drug use info getting to the jury -- :tongue:

Defense Motion to Bar Drug & Adultery Evidence
ROBERT C. BAKER, ESQ., BAR ID #49255

F. LEE BAILEY, ESQ.
DANIEL P. LEONARD, ESQ.
Attorneys for Defendant
ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON

SUPERIOR COURT FOR THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA IN THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES

Case No. SC 031947;
C/W Case No. SC 036340;
C/W Case No. SC 036376

MOTION IN LIMINE TO PRECLUDE THE INTRODUCTION OF EVIDENCE OR ARGUMENT REGARDING THE ISSUES OF PURPORTED PRIOR DRUG USE OR PURPORTED INFIDELITY; MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES; DECLARATION OF ROBERT C. BAKER
DISCOVERY AND MOTION CUT-OFF: 6/15/96

TRIAL DATE: 9/17/96

TO ALL PARTIES AND TO THEIR ATTORNEYS OF RECORD:

COMES NOW, defendant, ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON, hereby moves this Court for an order precluding plaintiffs from offering, introducing, intimating or suggesting at the time of Trial any evidence in reference to any conduct by Orenthal James Simpson regarding drug use or adultery occurring prior to the allegations set forth by plaintiffs. Any such evidence would be inadmissible in the civil action because such evidence is immaterial of the essential element of any cause of action contained in plaintiffs' Complaints and the admission of such evidence would be prejudicial to defendant.

[socaldiva]

looks like orenthal was worried about his drug use info getting to the jury -- :tongue:



Looks like he didn't want them hearing about his adulterous ways either ;)

[socaldiva]

It's being argued because there are some who, in a rather obnoxious and delusional effort to place blame on anyone other than OJ Simpson for anything that has ever occurred negatively in the life of OJ Simpson, have to believe that a cocaine habit clears the bank and thus Faye absolutely must have been in drug debt with Columbian dealers who in turn targeted her for murder, but instead accidentally murdered her best friend Nicole and also Ron Goldman.

I can only shake my head.

Kate

I wonder what their excuse is for Faye still being alive 14 years later? Did the "mix up" absolve her of her debt, or did she pay after the murders, out of fear? :shrug:

[weezer]

It's being argued because there are some who, in a rather obnoxious and delusional effort to place blame on anyone other than OJ Simpson for anything that has ever occurred negatively in the life of OJ Simpson, have to believe that a cocaine habit clears the bank and thus Faye absolutely must have been in drug debt with Columbian dealers who in turn targeted her for murder, but instead accidentally murdered her best friend Nicole and also Ron Goldman.

I can only shake my head.

Kate

You're right of course but it looks like your real-life experiences aren't as reliable to them as their make-believe -- at best second-hand -- world of experiences. :shrug:

[weezer]

I wonder what their excuse is for Faye still being alive 14 years later? Did the "mix up" absolve her of her debt, or did she pay after the murders, out of fear? :shrug:

using greenice and martin's theory, faye paid off her drug dealers with the money from her book and was scared straight. :eek:

[weezer]

ok
i understand. you HAVE NO PROOF to back up your claim that oj had drugs in his system on 6/13. :cool:

sure there is -- there's a toxicology report -- the link having been posted many times. maybe you can do some research to prove it wrong.

[William Anthony]

You seem to think that Park’s testimony concerning the mystery bag is evidence that Petrocelli told Park what to say when in fact Park testified in the civil trial to the same thing he testified to in the criminal trail regarding the bag he was shown. And then after Park said, "No, I told them that it wasn't the bag." Baker said, “Oh, I see. Fair enough.” The fact is there is no evidence that Park’s testimony was molded and Baker never said there was.

bobaugust

Thanks to all for your concern and prayers. I am recovering and able to try the stairs and will hope to fully be with you in a few days.

Here is the testimony

"Q. And he told you that that wasn't the bag, didn't he?

MR. PETROCELLI: Objection, hearsay, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

A. Him and others. "

Mr. Baker did not follow up with a question asking who the others were or, in other words, whether Park's testimony had been previously molded and Park only testified that he told those, who did not tell him it was not the bag, that it was not the bag and he regurgitated what those that told him it was not the bag.

[socaldiva]

using greenice and martin's theory, faye paid off her drug dealers with the money from her book and was scared straight. :eek:

Wow. It was really kind of the drug dealers to wait for the book to be published. :tongue:

[socaldiva]

sure there is -- there's a toxicology report -- the link having been posted many times. maybe you can do some research to prove it wrong.

I can't believe that Martin is acting as though this is the first he's heard of this. IIRC he has discussed it many times himself.

[William Anthony]

This has nothing to do with what Rokahr said referring to “night time” nor does it have to do with anyone referring to the early morning hours after midnight as “last night,’ it has to with your incorrect misleading comment that there was a photograph taken “on the night of the murders.” The night of the murders was June 12 and Rokahr never took any photographs then. Rokahr did take some overall street shots the morning after the murders when it was still night time on June 13. And he took the crime scene photograph that proved the defense gate blood planting theory false as well as the photograph of Fuhrman pointing to the glove under the plant foliage later in the morning after Fuhrman returned from Rockingham. Once again it seems you will dream up any excuse no matter how ridiculous to avoid admitting something you said is incorrect.

You previously did it with your incorrect comment that an unidentified hair was found inside the Rockingham glove which you still haven’t admitted was incorrect. And now you are doing again trying to defend your incorrect comment that a photograph was taken on the night of the murders.

bobaugust

Talk about misleading. :) If the pictures were taken on July the 13th they would have been taken in the A.M.

There is no need to become offensive simply because I and others disagree with your views. I am not one of the ones who have made derrogatory comments about your views until you have offensively attacked mine. I have supported all my views from evidence and links without could haves, would haves, maybes and entirely possibles.

[William Anthony]

The fact is that a crime scene photograph was taken the morning after murders hours before Simpson gave his blood sample, shows a blood stain on the rear gate that was photographed and collected about three weeks later and identified as Simpson’s blood.

April 4, 1995

THE COURT: MR. GOLDBERG, YOU MAY CONTINUE. PEOPLE'S 166.
Q BY MR. GOLDBERG: SIR, SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 166 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS PHOTOGRAPH PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY HERE?
A YES.
Q DID YOU LOOK AT IT WITH A MAGNIFYING GLASS?
A YES, I DID.
Q AND IS THIS A PHOTOGRAPH THAT WAS TAKEN ON THE 16TH OF JUNE? I MEAN THE 13TH OF JUNE. SORRY.
A 13TH OF JUNE, YES.
Q DID YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO COMPARE THAT PHOTOGRAPH TO THE PHOTOGRAPHS WHICH WERE TAKEN ON JULY THE 3RD AT THE TIME THAT YOU COLLECTED 15, 16 AND 17 -- 115, 116 AND 117?
A YES.
Q DOES THAT APPEAR TO BE IN THE SAME LOCATION AND THE SAME CONFIGURATION AS THE STAIN THAT WAS COLLECTED ON THE 13TH?
A YES.
Q ALL RIGHT.
MR. SCHECK: EXCUSE ME. ON THE 13TH?
THE COURT: THAT'S WHAT I HEARD.
Q BY MR. GOLDBERG: I MEAN, DOES THE STAIN IN THE 13TH PHOTOGRAPH APPEAR TO BE IN THE SAME CONFIGURATION AND SAME LOCATION AS THE STAIN THAT WAS COLLECTED ON JULY THE 3RD?
A YES.

bobaugust

Originally Posted by William Anthony View Post
I do see something that supports an inference but nothing stated as a fact as you have claimed.

[William Anthony]

Some points about the sweat suit in the washing machine that interested me are as follows:
The guy who made the exercise video with Simpson, Richard Walsh said he gave Simpson a black sweat suit with a white zipper. I believe Mr. Simpson denied receiving the sweat suit. Mr. Walsh's testimony is Dec 4, 1994.

Kato said that when he and Simpson went out to dinner on the killing night, Mr. Simpson was wearing a dark sweat suit with a white zipper. It is logical to think that this was the sweat suit that Simpson wore in the exercise video.
Kato's testimony was on Nov 19, 1994

My understanding is that neither the prosecution nor the defense was able to find a dark sweat suit with a white zipper that Mr. Simpson might have been wearing either for the exercise video, or on June 12 for dinner. To put it another way, there are 3 observations of dark sweat suits that might have been worn by Mr. Simpson - the exercise video, what Kato saw on June 12, and what was in the wasing machine when the detectives got there. The prosecutions story was that there was one sweat suit.

I think the defense was unclear on this. I thought they said that Simpson didn't receive the sweat suit from the exercise video, but they never explained what happened to the sweat suit in the washing machine, or the one Kato saw Simpson wearing.

One thing I wondered about is whethe the prosecution tried to find out company manufactured the sweat suite that was in the exercise video. If they could have obtained a sweat suit similar to the one in the video, that might have been a useful comparison for dark fibers that were found at the crime scene.

Let's be careful that we keep the burden of proof in its proper place.

[William Anthony]

I'm sure William has or something along those lines.

Oh no, your posts are always a source of entertainment.:)

[Kate Sachel]

Welcome back William!

I hope that your recovery is going as smoothly and as comfortably as possible and am very glad to see you back with us.

Kate

[tv]

ok
i understand. you HAVE NO PROOF to back up your claim that oj had drugs in his system on 6/13. :cool:

It's considered common knowledge but if you don't want to accept it that's your right. I'm sure the information is available if you're interested in the truth.

[tv]

Oh no, your posts are always a source of entertainment.:)

Then I've achieved one of my goals in life -- to be considered entertaining by William Anthony. :)

[martin II]

cocain like any other drug has always and is today based on supply and demand where the user is,the drug can cost one price in Texas much highr in new york and triple that in ohio. So to say a price one user paid in say MA would be the same in CA is pure ignorance on the subject. But as i have said people are free to think what they believe is true. it never changes the facts.

[socaldiva]

*snip*

cocain like any other drug


Someone refresh my memory please: the price of cocain has what to do with the double murders?

[tv]

Someone refresh my memory please: the price of cocain has what to do with the double murders?

It has no more to do with it than the price of eggs in China but it's an effective distraction from the real killer...Orenthal James Simpson. ;)

[socaldiva]

It has no more to do with it than the price of eggs in China but it's an effective distraction from the real killer...Orenthal James Simpson. ;)

I kinda figured :D

[tv]

I can't believe that Martin is acting as though this is the first he's heard of this. IIRC he has discussed it many times himself.

This is the first time I've seen martin deny this information. I don't get it. :shrug:

[socaldiva]

This is the first time I've seen martin deny this information. I don't get it. :shrug:

Maybe he wants to rehash the entire case from the beginning :chicken:

[tv]

Maybe he wants to rehash the entire case from the beginning :chicken:

If I'd known that I would have eaten my Wheaties this morning!

[martin II]

This is the first time I've seen martin deny this information. I don't get it. :shrug:

Maby as you say i don't pay attention. Today is the first time i have seen a drug test of nicole. i have never seen one posted for oj. if as you say you have seen the drug screen for oj , tell me exactly what did it say when you read it previously?

[martin II]

It's considered common knowledge but if you don't want to accept it that's your right. I'm sure the information is available if you're interested in the truth.

you make the claim that oj had drugs in his system i ask you for a link to prove your claim and you tell me i can look for the link to prove your claim if i am interested.

[tv]

Maby as you say i don't pay attention. Today is the first time i have seen a drug test of nicole. i have never seen one posted for oj. if as you say you have seen the drug screen for oj , tell me exactly what did it say when you read it previously?

OJ Simpson's drug screen results are common knowledge. The results can probably be found in the testimony. I'm sure if you do a simple keyword search you'll find what you're looking for.

[weezer]

cocain like any other drug has always and is today based on supply and demand where the user is,the drug can cost one price in Texas much highr in new york and triple that in ohio. So to say a price one user paid in say MA would be the same in CA is pure ignorance on the subject. But as i have said people are free to think what they believe is true. it never changes the facts.

Let me see -- Kate posted personal information about drugs and because you read something somewhere, YOU are the expert and think's she's ignorant. martin, you need to apologize to her for your insulting post.

[tv]

you make the claim that oj had drugs in his system i ask you for a link to prove your claim and you tell me i can look for the link to prove your claim if i am interested.

You've made the same claim in the past so you can look up the link and prove it to yourself. I'm not going on a scavenger hunt for you on this subject.

[weezer]

You've made the same claim in the past so you can look up the link and prove it to yourself. I'm not going on a scavenger hunt for you on this subject.

I understand the rule is if you post something that is not common knowledge and are asked for a link, you have to provide it. EVERYONE knows, has talked about, and understands that orenthal had drugs in his system the day after he butchered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. since martin seemingly disputes that 14 years later, he's probably the one that should provide the link supporting his statement.

[tv]

I understand the rule is if you post something that is not common knowledge and are asked for a link, you have to provide it. EVERYONE knows, has talked about, and understands that orenthal had drugs in his system the day after he butchered Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown. since martin seemingly disputes that 14 years later, he's probably the one that should provide the link supporting his statement.

IMO, if he has new information that disputes what is considered common knowledge on this board he should post it.

[weezer]

IMO, if he has new information that disputes what is considered common knowledge on this board he should post it.

makes sense :beer:

[martin II]

OJ Simpson's drug screen results are common knowledge. The results can probably be found in the testimony. I'm sure if you do a simple keyword search you'll find what you're looking for.

since you have read oj drug screen results i only asked you what did it say when you read it.

[weezer]

since you have read oj drug screen results i only asked you what did it say when you read it.

that's easy: it said he had an illegal substance in his system. :shrug:

[tv]

that's easy: it said he had an illegal substance in his system. :shrug:

I'm beginning to think that martin is looking for something else here besides the trace amounts of THC found in OJ Simpson's blood.

[martin II]

i have made my comment about different prices for cocain in different states based on supply and demand in those various places.i will add that one freebaser living in one state has absolutely no proof or idea how much cocain another user in another state is using and certainly no information that both
are spending the same amount of money on their habit.That is just a silly nom factual argument.imo

[martin II]

I'm beginning to think that martin is looking for something else here besides the trace amounts of THC found in OJ Simpson's blood.

i only asked you to tell me exactly what you read when you saw oj drug screen report. Don't forget you can always say i will not tell you.

[tv]

i have made my comment about different prices for cocain in different states based on supply and demand in those various places.i will add that one freebaser living in one state has absolutely no proof or idea how much cocain another user in another state is using and certainly no information that both
are spending the same amount of money on their habit.That is just a silly nom factual argument.imo

To me the silly, non-factual argument is that Faye Resnick's drug use had anything whatsoever to do with the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

[tv]

i only asked you to tell me exactly what you read when you saw oj drug screen report. Don't forget you can always say i will not tell you. martin, you may not believe this but I don't have a photographic memory -- which doesn't matter because my information comes from court testimony not the tox report.

[weezer]

To me the silly, non-factual argument is that Faye Resnick's drug use had anything whatsoever to do with the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

he's taking a page from the criminal defense -- put someone else on trial.

[tv]

he's taking a page from the criminal defense -- put someone else on trial.

Riiight...put Faye, Nicole and Ron on trial. Now why did Ron and Nicole go and get themselves killed? They should know better. :rolleyes:

[weezer]

martin, you may not believe this but I don't have a photographic memory -- which doesn't matter because my information comes from court testimony not the tox report.

maybe martin can post a link to the report he says showed orenthal 'only had a trace amount' -- that's been martin's stand before tonight -- then you can look at it and see if it jogs your memory. :shrug:

[tv]

maybe martin can post a link to the report he says showed orenthal 'only had a trace amount' -- that's been martin's stand before tonight -- then you can look at it and see if it jogs your memory. :shrug:

I'd be glad to do that. I feel like I'm failing some important test here. :)

[martin II]

martin, you may not believe this but I don't have a photographic memory -- which doesn't matter because my information comes from court testimony not the tox report.

no problem.

[tv]

Didn't there used to be case files with links and other info at the top of this forum? Am I remembering wrong?

[fgump2]

Maby as you say i don't pay attention. Today is the first time i have seen a drug test of nicole. i have never seen one posted for oj. if as you say you have seen the drug screen for oj , tell me exactly what did it say when you read it previously?
It is mentioned in the Jan 23, 1996 deposition of Mr. SImpson.
link http://walraven.org/simpson/oj_depo2.html. This isn't as explicit as it might be, but one of your favorite lawyers, Mr. Petrocelli asked Simpson about the police tests finding pit in his blood (from June 13 I guess), and Baker advised him not to answer it.

[martin II]

To me the silly, non-factual argument is that Faye Resnick's drug use had anything whatsoever to do with the murders of Ron Goldman and Nicole Brown.

Changing the subject i see.how about responding to my post

[weezer]

It is mentioned in the Jan 23, 1996 deposition of Mr. SImpson.
link http://walraven.org/simpson/oj_depo2.html. This isn't as explicit as it might be, but one of your favorite lawyers, Mr. Petrocelli asked Simpson about the police tests finding pit in his blood (from June 13 I guess), and Baker advised him not to answer it.

this must have been what brought about the defense filing to keep drug use out of the trial.

[GreenIce]

i have made my comment about different prices for cocain in different states based on supply and demand in those various places.i will add that one freebaser living in one state has absolutely no proof or idea how much cocain another user in another state is using and certainly no information that both
are spending the same amount of money on their habit.That is just a silly nom factual argument.imo

Martin,

IMO, it is Faye herself and the LAPD who have given the drug angle life. It is clear they decided Simpson was guilty before they ever even saw Nicole and Ron's bodies. They already had their theory before they even talked to any of Nicole's friends. They ignored Sydney Simpson, they ignored Faye Resnick totally, even after being told she was forced into rehab.

Also, I find it interesting that so many people believe Faye and only Faye's account of her drug habit as well as her financial situation. Not one person who was involved in the intervention or with Nicole regarding Faye has confirmed her version of events and her "mad money" account.

Did the Jenners confirm Faye's stories? Did Candace Garvey?

What I find very interesting is that OJ Simpson ruled Faye out during his interview with the police. I think he did mention a friend of Nicoles being in rehab but didn't think this had anything to do with the murders. I would think if he was the killer, he would have pointed right at Faye.

Also, during that 1993 incident, Simpson talks about drugs, hookers, etc., yet Simpson never seemed to mention Faye and drugs during that time. Faye seemed more concerned about keeping Simpson as friend then Nicole, so why would Faye be so upset about losing OJ as a friend if she was so scared of him that she wanted Nicole to leave the country with her?

I can't believe that anyone reading her books can't see that what she writes makes no sense at all. That this book was not written for Nicole, it was written about Nicole and to point fingers at everybody, including Nicole. IMO.

[GreenIce]

Wiliam,

Welcome back!

[GreenIce]

you make the claim that oj had drugs in his system i ask you for a link to prove your claim and you tell me i can look for the link to prove your claim if i am interested.

Martin,

The only time I ever heard about Simpson have traces of pot in his system was from Chris Darden on his book tour. He did also say that it was strange because he was never tested for steroids--which makes no sense to me. Isn't steroids used as medication to treat some forms of arthris (sp?)

[tv]

Changing the subject i see.how about responding to my post

martin, I'm losing patience with this. I told you my information is from the court transcripts. It's considered common knowledge on the board so I'm not going to research it for you. THC in his blood is all I can tell you. If you have other information then post it. If this isn't what you're saying I changed the subject from then I'm at a loss as to what you're talking about. I'm done with the OJ smoking marijuana subject. He obviously had smoked it sometime before the murders.

[weezer]

:shrug:

"martin II 10-02-2006, 03:16 PM
fbg

again

they found TRACES of marijuana (weed) in his blood. which means that he could have smoked a joint at anytime from several weeks before 6/12 or a few days before 6/12.

if he had smoked on 6/12 the level would have been higher imo"

[GreenIce]

It's being argued because there are some who, in a rather obnoxious and delusional effort to place blame on anyone other than OJ Simpson for anything that has ever occurred negatively in the life of OJ Simpson, have to believe that a cocaine habit clears the bank and thus Faye absolutely must have been in drug debt with Columbian dealers who in turn targeted her for murder, but instead accidentally murdered her best friend Nicole and also Ron Goldman.

I can only shake my head.

Kate

Kate,

Who confirmed and proved Faye was telling the truth? What proof do you have how much money she had? How much she spent on drugs? Did her dealer ever testify or talk to the LAPD and confirm that Faye as telling the truth and she did not owe him any money? Did the Jenners, Garverys, her ex-husband give statements to the police backing Faye's version of events up?

Who stepped forward and proved CR was the one person who was lying? He said she worked in his office for about 4 days and had to fire her, before Nicole's murder. What is your proof that he lying and Faye is telling the truth?

Who confirmed Faye's stories?

[weezer]

to use a take-off from the criminal juror: this wasn't a case about faye resnick or her drug use. if you want a faye resnick drug use trial, go down the block.

[tv]

:shrug:

"martin II 10-02-2006, 03:16 PM
fbg

again

they found TRACES of marijuana (weed) in his blood. which means that he could have smoked a joint at anytime from several weeks before 6/12 or a few days before 6/12.

if he had smoked on 6/12 the level would have been higher imo"

Well, now, should we ask martin to produce the tox report that he got this information from? He needs to back up his claim. The exact wording of the tox report would be nice. :D

[tv]

to use a take-off from the criminal juror: this wasn't a case about faye resnick or her drug use. if you want a faye resnick drug use trial, go down the block.

:beer::beer:

[GreenIce]

Martin,

Did one of your posts say that Nicole wrote a note to Cora about Faye's friends? That she wanted Faye out of her house because of these friends?

Was this note ever given to the police?

Also, much has been made about Nicole's journals. I wonder if there was anything in them regarding Faye? I also wonder if Nicole ever went to Kris Jenner about Faye.

[martin II]

It is mentioned in the Jan 23, 1996 deposition of Mr. SImpson.
link http://walraven.org/simpson/oj_depo2.html. This isn't as explicit as it might be, but one of your favorite lawyers, Mr. Petrocelli asked Simpson about the police tests finding pit in his blood (from June 13 I guess), and Baker advised him not to answer it.

what is PIT i see no referance to it in the testimony and don't know what it is.

There has been many post claiming that oj did not care enough about his kids that he did not see them before he went to jail.

this testimony indicates that he saw them on 6 14 and guess what PB spent the night also.


Q: When you went to Mr. Kardashian's house I guess it was on the 14th of June to stay there for a while, who drove you there?

A: Mr. Kardashian.

Q: In whose car did you go?

A: His.

Q: Did Mr. Cowlings spend the evenings over at the Kardashian house?

A: I don't believe so.

Q: Did anybody else spend the evenings, other than yourself--

MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Do you mean by "spend the evenings," did they sleep at the house?

MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Which night?

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

Q: The night of the 14th, the first night. Other than yourself and Mr. Kardashian.

A: The night--

Q: Of the 14th.

A: The night--

Q: Tuesday.

A:--of the 14th, my kids.

Q: Your kids. Anyone else?

A: I don't--not that I know of.

Q: And the night of the 15th?

A: Other than people live there, you mean?

Q: Who lived there?

A: I guess Denise Halicki and Bob Kardashian, and they may have had house help that spend the night.

Q: Other than those folks, on the 15th did anybody else join you and spend the night there?

A: Paula Barbieri.

Q: And she slept over there?

A: Yes.

Q: And on the 16th?

A: Paula Barbieri.

.

[weezer]

what is PIT i see no referance to it in the testimony and don't know what it is.

There has been many post claiming that oj did not care enough about his kids that he did not see them before he went to jail.

this testimony indicates that he saw them on 6 14 and guess what PB spent the night also.


Q: When you went to Mr. Kardashian's house I guess it was on the 14th of June to stay there for a while, who drove you there?

A: Mr. Kardashian.

Q: In whose car did you go?

A: His.

Q: Did Mr. Cowlings spend the evenings over at the Kardashian house?

A: I don't believe so.

Q: Did anybody else spend the evenings, other than yourself--

MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Do you mean by "spend the evenings," did they sleep at the house?

MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Which night?

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

Q: The night of the 14th, the first night. Other than yourself and Mr. Kardashian.

A: The night--

Q: Of the 14th.

A: The night--

Q: Tuesday.

A:--of the 14th, my kids.

Q: Your kids. Anyone else?

A: I don't--not that I know of.

Q: And the night of the 15th?

A: Other than people live there, you mean?

Q: Who lived there?

A: I guess Denise Halicki and Bob Kardashian, and they may have had house help that spend the night.

Q: Other than those folks, on the 15th did anybody else join you and spend the night there?

A: Paula Barbieri.

Q: And she slept over there?

A: Yes.

Q: And on the 16th?

A: Paula Barbieri.

.

was this Nicole's children?

[GreenIce]

what is PIT i see no referance to it in the testimony and don't know what it is.

There has been many post claiming that oj did not care enough about his kids that he did not see them before he went to jail.

this testimony indicates that he saw them on 6 14 and guess what PB spent the night also.


Q: When you went to Mr. Kardashian's house I guess it was on the 14th of June to stay there for a while, who drove you there?

A: Mr. Kardashian.

Q: In whose car did you go?

A: His.

Q: Did Mr. Cowlings spend the evenings over at the Kardashian house?

A: I don't believe so.

Q: Did anybody else spend the evenings, other than yourself--

MR. BAKER: I'm sorry. Do you mean by "spend the evenings," did they sleep at the house?

MR. PETROCELLI: Yes.

THE WITNESS: Which night?

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

Q: The night of the 14th, the first night. Other than yourself and Mr. Kardashian.

A: The night--

Q: Of the 14th.

A: The night--

Q: Tuesday.

A:--of the 14th, my kids.

Q: Your kids. Anyone else?

A: I don't--not that I know of.

Q: And the night of the 15th?

A: Other than people live there, you mean?

Q: Who lived there?

A: I guess Denise Halicki and Bob Kardashian, and they may have had house help that spend the night.

Q: Other than those folks, on the 15th did anybody else join you and spend the night there?

A: Paula Barbieri.

Q: And she slept over there?

A: Yes.

Q: And on the 16th?

A: Paula Barbieri.

.

Martin,

I have always posted that IMO, if Simpson was the killer, he never would have sent to kids to the Browns nor would he have ever allowed them to be their guardians while he was in jail. Also, I think he could have made convincing argument in any family court that his children should have remained with his older children or with his sisters.

Also, much has been made of the fact that Simpson has never talked to his children about the murders. People seemed stunned that neither child has ever asked their father about what happened that night. However, I have always felt that people forget that Sydney probably told her family, including her father what she heard that night, at least about the part about her mother crying and fighting with her best friend.

[martin II]

Martin,

Did one of your posts say that Nicole wrote a note to Cora about Faye's friends? That she wanted Faye out of her house because of these friends?

Was this note ever given to the police?

Also, much has been made about Nicole's journals. I wonder if there was anything in them regarding Faye? I also wonder if Nicole ever went to Kris Jenner about Faye.

Nicole wrote a letter to cora saying that she was not confortable or did not like the friends that came to her house to see faye.
this letter was posted on the old oj threads and discussed in length by all.

There is testimony that CR was a little peeved at nicole for not telling him that faye was out of control with her drug use and this came up when nicole talked to friends about setting up the intervention for nicole and that it was CR that forced faye to go to rehab.

OJ testified that at a dinner party faye was out of control and he spoke to her about but she kinda ignored his comments but the others agreed that faye was taking to many pills and that the others at the dinner took the pills from faye.imo

it is my opinion that if nicole did not like fays friends comming to her house and she knew faye was out of control with her drug habit that nicole would arrange the intervention which would remove faye from her house and her children.This leads me to ask why would nicole allow a active freebaser to do drugs in her house with her two small children in the house.

[martin II]

Martin,

I have always posted that IMO, if Simpson was the killer, he never would have sent to kids to the Browns nor would he have ever allowed them to be their guardians while he was in jail. Also, I think he could have made convincing argument in any family court that his children should have remained with his older children or with his sisters.

Also, much has been made of the fact that Simpson has never talked to his children about the murders. People seemed stunned that neither child has ever asked their father about what happened that night. However, I have always felt that people forget that Sydney probably told her family, including her father what she heard that night, at least about the part about her mother crying and fighting with her best friend.

PB that dumped oj on 6/12 and ran to los vegas on 6/12 was back in la on 6/15 and in the bed with oj.
GI people posting here are not in a position to know what oj has discussed with his kids.

As far as nicole fighting on the phone with her friend it is believable that faye told nicole about the dealers wanting their money and they may come to her house looking for faye and nicole got pissed or afraid.

[martin II]

Well, now, should we ask martin to produce the tox report that he got this information from? He needs to back up his claim. The exact wording of the tox report would be nice. :D

origionally i got my info about traces from a poster that dissagreed with your buds claim that oj had drugs in his system.i have never seen a post giving oks drug test report and i am a little dissapointed that obviously you havent either.:cool:

[tv]

origionally i got my info about traces from a poster that dissagreed with your buds claim that oj had drugs in his system.i have never seen a post giving oks drug test report and i am a little dissapointed that obviously you havent either.:cool:

The tox results are in the trial testimony. I'm surprised you'd post a negative about OJ Simpson without doing your homework. As far as my bud goes at least what she posts is based on trial testimony and facts unlike your bud who only posts fantasy and wishful thinking.

Looks like you decided to go down the block and put Faye on trial for drugs after all. You'd think Faye was the killer instead of the Butcher of Brentwood -- OJ Simpson.

[weezer]

I don't believe 'sent' is the right word:

"O.J. Simpson agrees to give guardianship of his children to their grandparents
Sept 26, 1994

O.J. Simpson has agreed to give guardianship of his minor children to the parents of his slain ex-wife, according to court papers.

If Simpson is acquitted of the murder of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson and her friend Ronald Goldman, he would have the right to seek the children's return, the court papers said.

Simpson's children--Sydney, 8, and Justin, 6--would be placed under the guardianship of their grandparents, Louis Brown and Juditha Brown.

The children have been staying with their grandparents since their mother was slain.

The Browns filed a petition July 27 in Orange County (CA) Superior Court, asking to be made legal guardians of the children. Simpson filed his agreement Aug. 31. The agreement is pending court approval.

Meanwhile, a fearful witness who refused to testify before a grand jury investigating Simpson's best friend, was jailed for contempt by a judge who told him he can talk or stay behind bars.

"You hold the keys to that jail cell," Superior Court Judge Stephen Czuleger told the witness, John Dunton.

Dunton, 32, an ex-convict with a record for forgery, will appeal to the California Supreme Court to over-turn the contempt citation. Dunton said he was afraid to testify but did not say who he fears or detail why his life would be in danger.

A grand jury currently is investigating the role which O.J. Simpson's longtime friend and former professional football teammate, Al "A.C." Cowlings, may have played in the bizarre murder case."

[weezer]

origionally i got my info about traces from a poster that dissagreed with your buds claim that oj had drugs in his system.i have never seen a post giving oks drug test report and i am a little dissapointed that obviously you havent either.:cool:

I don't know what 'oks drug test' is -- makes any kind of response difficult.

[tv]

I don't know what 'oks drug test' is -- makes any kind of response difficult.

I don't understand something. I post that OJ Simpson had marijuana in his system at the time of the murders and martin demands I post the tox report. He makes the same claim and then says he's never seen a tox report and is disappointed that I haven't even after I've explained that it's in the trial testimony. What am I missing here? :shrug: