Random Discussions On The Case

[tv]

Martin,

IMO, I think is very likely that Fung or someone else did look as this clothing but they were not collected for another reason--such as perhaps it was a woman's sweat suit or dark clothes or that the size of the sweat suit eliminated them from being Simpson's---thus---these could not be the "murder clothes". It's not just 'likely' that Fung looked at the sweats; he did look at the sweats.

IMO, a most interesting questions would be if Simpson did throw the "murder clothes in the wash", could Kato have heard it when Simpson was trying to help him find a flashlight? GreenIce, you really have to stop imagining these things.

The theory of Arnelle being the person to have done this makes no sense, does anyone believe that Simpson called her to do this and she would not ask questions on why he wanted this done? I absolutely believe and so do many other people.

What I find interesting is that Arnelle to the detectives she knew her father was out of town but she did not know where he was. Isn't this a conflict with the detectives' story that Arnelle made said that Simpson should have been in the house? Isn't this in direct conflict with Arnelle being an accomplice? Arnelle initially asked the detectives 'isn't he in the house?' Make of it what you will.

GI, I realize you don't want any of this to make sense because if it does then OJ Simpson is a double-murderer. He got rid of the sweats and probably laughed himself silly because LE had held the murder clothes in their hands and put them back in the washer.

[tv]

TV,

I will check VA and Lange's book again to just to make sure.

The reason why I am beating this to death because you have not provided any testimony that said the dark clothes in the washing were sweats. You have no provided any testimony or evidence how looking at the contents of the washing machine it was determined not only this was a man's sweat suit but also what it was made of--blue-black cotton fibers.

The fact is that you can't prove they were in fact sweats. IMO.

I'm not discussing this anymore. You've been told the facts over and over again and will have to check them yourself.

[GreenIce]

GI, I realize you don't want any of this to make sense because if it does then OJ Simpson is a double-murderer. He got rid of the sweats and probably laughed himself silly because LE had held the murder clothes in their hands and put them back in the washer.

TV,

First off, when the detectives went to Kato's room, the first thing he asked was did OJ' plane go down.

Second of all, Arnelle has much more credibility then the detectives. They had to justify why they went over the fence.

Third, there was another witness to support Arnelle's testimony knowing that her father was out of town and when he would be back--which was GiGi the maid.

Fourth, the maid did not live inside the main house, she had the middle guest house.

Fifth, the detectives never asked Kato or Arnelle about the maid, where is the maid? VA claims that he asked Arnelle where the maid's room, Arnell said he did not. The evidence proves that Arnelle is telling the truth and the detective is not.

When did Fung testify about the contents of the washing machine? When did say that the clothes were sweats? When was the video tape of the contents of the washing machine entered into evidence?

[GreenIce]

GI, I realize you don't want any of this to make sense because if it does then OJ Simpson is a double-murderer. He got rid of the sweats and probably laughed himself silly because LE had held the murder clothes in their hands and put them back in the washer.

TV,

You believe that the sweats were put in the washer to get rid of the blood right? Isn't it a fair question to ask Kato if heard a washing machine at 11:00 PM? If he was able to hear the washing machine, isn't that valuable information?

If Arnelle was the person who washed the clothes at her father's request, that late at night, then why say that he should be inside the house? Wouldn't she have given details, like what time her father left and that he was in Chicago?

[GreenIce]

I'm not discussing this anymore. You've been told the facts over and over again and will have to check them yourself.

TV,

I am only asking when did Fung testify about this? How did he describe the sweats? If he did testify to this, then I missed it. However, if he did not testify about this, there is a reason why he was never asked this by the DA's.

Your quote:

Also, you have made it clear that Doug Deedrick could not determine the source of the fibers---well didn't he look at the pictures of the contents of the washing machine? How in heaven's name do you expect Deedrick to be able to say whether or not fibers came from clothing he's looking at in a picture?

TV,

Why is it that G's can tell just by looking the tape what the clothes are and what it was made up but Doug Deedrick could not?

How is it that G's say these fibers came from a sweat suit but Deedrick only same they came from the same piece of cloth?

[martin II]

GreenIce, you're beating the sweats in the machine to death. The only mystery involving the sweats is what happened to them after being seen in the washer. It's a fact that they were in the washer and videoed, it's a fact that there was rust on the machine, it's a fact that they were never seen again.

i looked on the trial testimony site for items entered into evidence and found nothing about the sweat pictures.
so can you try to snswer my above poost to you?

[martin II]

GreenIce, you're beating the sweats in the machine to death. The only mystery involving the sweats is what happened to them after being seen in the washer. It's a fact that they were in the washer and videoed, it's a fact that there was rust on the machine, it's a fact that they were never seen again.

if fung held up the sweats and a video was made was a picture ever shown to the jury to prove the existance of the sweats.if not why not?

[martin II]

TV,

I am only asking when did Fung testify about this? How did he describe the sweats? If he did testify to this, then I missed it. However, if he did not testify about this, there is a reason why he was never asked this by the DA's.

Your quote:

Also, you have made it clear that Doug Deedrick could not determine the source of the fibers---well didn't he look at the pictures of the contents of the washing machine? How in heaven's name do you expect Deedrick to be able to say whether or not fibers came from clothing he's looking at in a picture?

TV,

Why is it that G's can tell just by looking the tape what the clothes are and what it was made up but Doug Deedrick could not?

How is it that G's say these fibers came from a sweat suit but Deedrick only same they came from the same piece of cloth?

simple answer. THEY COULD NOT TELL WHAT THEY WERE MADE OF.AND NEITHER COULD KATO.
I think the person that purchased the items did not know if they were of cotton or cotton and polyester.

[martin II]

I'm not discussing this anymore. You've been told the facts over and over again and will have to check them yourself.


TV
You had posted that the zipper to the sweats was white. the lady that purchased the item says it was black.

"Is that a black, zip-front sweat jacket" that you acquired for him?

A. Yes, it is."

[tv]

TV
You had posted that the zipper to the sweats was white. the lady that purchased the item says it was black.

"Is that a black, zip-front sweat jacket" that you acquired for him?

A. Yes, it is." She said the sweat suit jacket was black not the zipper.

Testimony of Kato in civil trial --

Q. By the way, what was Mr. Simpson wearing at the time of that conversation, at about 6:30, 7 o'clock?

A. I thought it was a sharp-looking sweatsuit, dark, white zipper

Petrocelli was able to introduce a photo from a magazine layout taken just weeks before the murders. In the photo, he's wearing a dark sweatsuit with a white or silver zipper.

[tv]

i looked on the trial testimony site for items entered into evidence and found nothing about the sweat pictures.
so can you try to snswer my above poost to you?If you don't like the answer I gave to GI I can't help you.

[tv]

TV,

I am only asking when did Fung testify about this? How did he describe the sweats? If he did testify to this, then I missed it. However, if he did not testify about this, there is a reason why he was never asked this by the DA's.

Your quote:

Also, you have made it clear that Doug Deedrick could not determine the source of the fibers---well didn't he look at the pictures of the contents of the washing machine? How in heaven's name do you expect Deedrick to be able to say whether or not fibers came from clothing he's looking at in a picture?

TV,

Why is it that G's can tell just by looking the tape what the clothes are and what it was made up but Doug Deedrick could not?

How is it that G's say these fibers came from a sweat suit but Deedrick only same they came from the same piece of cloth?

The Gs have never claimed to know what the sweats were made of. If Simpson hadn't gotten rid of them we wouldn't have all this speculation because the sweats would have been sent out and tested. I can think of only one reason why he made the sweats disappear.

[tv]

TV,

First off, when the detectives went to Kato's room, the first thing he asked was did OJ' plane go down.

Second of all, Arnelle has much more credibility then the detectives. They had to justify why they went over the fence.

Third, there was another witness to support Arnelle's testimony knowing that her father was out of town and when he would be back--which was GiGi the maid.

Fourth, the maid did not live inside the main house, she had the middle guest house.

Fifth, the detectives never asked Kato or Arnelle about the maid, where is the maid? VA claims that he asked Arnelle where the maid's room, Arnell said he did not. The evidence proves that Arnelle is telling the truth and the detective is not.

When did Fung testify about the contents of the washing machine? When did say that the clothes were sweats? When was the video tape of the contents of the washing machine entered into evidence?

Please enlighten me as to why the location of the maid's quarters has anything to do with the fact that sweats were found in the washer. As far as Fung's testimony and the video tape being entered into evidence it amuses me when you demand testimony and proof of evidence in the trial because you seldom offer any concrete facts yourself.

[tv]

TV,

You believe that the sweats were put in the washer to get rid of the blood right? Isn't it a fair question to ask Kato if heard a washing machine at 11:00 PM? If he was able to hear the washing machine, isn't that valuable information?

If Arnelle was the person who washed the clothes at her father's request, that late at night, then why say that he should be inside the house? Wouldn't she have given details, like what time her father left and that he was in Chicago?

The maid testified that all the laundry was done and put away when she left on June 12. She also testifed that the laundry basket was Arnelle's. So between the time she left on June 12 and the detectives entered the property someone washed clothes but Arnelle denies it. If I recall, she had to call Cathy Randa to find out where her father was or at least she said she didn't know and called CR to find out.

GreenIce, please don't come up with the theory that the detectives washed the clothes. I can feel it coming.

[martin II]

Testimony of Kato in civil trial --

Q. By the way, what was Mr. Simpson wearing at the time of that conversation, at about 6:30, 7 o'clock?

A. I thought it was a sharp-looking sweatsuit, dark, white zipper

Petrocelli was able to introduce a photo from a magazine layout taken just weeks before the murders. In the photo, he's wearing a dark sweatsuit with a white or silver zipper.

i posted the testimony of the lady that purchased the sweats as she looked at a picture of oj dressed in them at the video shoot.she said the zipper on the top was black.
I don't care what kato THOUGHT.


civil trial.

[tv]

i posted the testimony of the lady that purchased the sweats as she looked at a picture of oj dressed in them at the video shoot.she said the zipper on the top was black.
I don't care what kato THOUGHT.


civil trial.

The woman didn't say the zipper was black. She said the jacket was black. Martin, don't you undertand that there was a photo layout in a magazine of him wearing the exercise sweats and the zipper was white or silver? It was entered into evidence at the civil trial.

[martin II]

TV

More testimony by the video fashion person stating that there was NO WHITE PIPING OR WHITE ZIPPER on the top she purchased and was looking at in the picture taken at the video shoot.
So no white zipper or piping.black zipper.
---------------------


MR. LEONARD: Now, can we get the photographs up again.

That one, yeah.

MR. P. BAKER: 2219.

(Exhibit 2219 is displayed on the Elmo screen.)

Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) There's the sweat top you're talking about, right?

A. Right.

Q. By the way, that doesn't have any kind of white piping or any kind of white striping along the zipper, does it?

A. No, it doesn't.

Q. None of the clothing -- the sweat clothing Mr. Simpson wore had anything like that, did it?

A. No, it didn't.

[tv]

TV

More testimony by the video fashion person stating that there was NO WHITE PIPING OR WHITE ZIPPER on the top she purchased and was looking at in the picture taken at the video shoot.
So no white zipper or piping.black zipper.
---------------------


MR. LEONARD: Now, can we get the photographs up again.

That one, yeah.

MR. P. BAKER: 2219.

(Exhibit 2219 is displayed on the Elmo screen.)

Q. (BY MR. LEONARD) There's the sweat top you're talking about, right?

A. Right.

Q. By the way, that doesn't have any kind of white piping or any kind of white striping along the zipper, does it?

A. No, it doesn't.

Q. None of the clothing -- the sweat clothing Mr. Simpson wore had anything like that, did it?

A. No, it didn't.

Then explain why he's wearing it in the photo layout in the magazine.

[martin II]

Then explain why he's wearing it in the photo layout in the magazine.

you want me to explain??
in my post they were looking at the video picture taken by the video group at ojs.

[weezer]

SNIPPED*** ' . . .GreenIce, please don't come up with the theory that the detectives washed the clothes. I can feel it coming."

ROFLMAO :beer:

[tv]

you want me to explain??
in my post they were looking at the video picture taken by the video group at ojs.

Bottom line on the sweats is that the video which showed the sweats was entered into evidence and shown during the trial. If you know of testimony that disputes that the sweats were in the washer please post it.

[fgump2]

Bottom line on the sweats is that the video which showed the sweats was entered into evidence and shown during the trial. If you know of testimony that disputes that the sweats were in the washer please post it.

Some points about the sweat suit in the washing machine that interested me are as follows:
The guy who made the exercise video with Simpson, Richard Walsh said he gave Simpson a black sweat suit with a white zipper. I believe Mr. Simpson denied receiving the sweat suit. Mr. Walsh's testimony is Dec 4, 1994.

Kato said that when he and Simpson went out to dinner on the killing night, Mr. Simpson was wearing a dark sweat suit with a white zipper. It is logical to think that this was the sweat suit that Simpson wore in the exercise video.
Kato's testimony was on Nov 19, 1994

My understanding is that neither the prosecution nor the defense was able to find a dark sweat suit with a white zipper that Mr. Simpson might have been wearing either for the exercise video, or on June 12 for dinner. To put it another way, there are 3 observations of dark sweat suits that might have been worn by Mr. Simpson - the exercise video, what Kato saw on June 12, and what was in the wasing machine when the detectives got there. The prosecutions story was that there was one sweat suit.

I think the defense was unclear on this. I thought they said that Simpson didn't receive the sweat suit from the exercise video, but they never explained what happened to the sweat suit in the washing machine, or the one Kato saw Simpson wearing.

One thing I wondered about is whethe the prosecution tried to find out company manufactured the sweat suite that was in the exercise video. If they could have obtained a sweat suit similar to the one in the video, that might have been a useful comparison for dark fibers that were found at the crime scene.

[martin II]

Some points about the sweat suit in the washing machine that interested me are as follows:
The guy who made the exercise video with Simpson, Richard Walsh said he gave Simpson a black sweat suit with a white zipper. I believe Mr. Simpson denied receiving the sweat suit. Mr. Walsh's testimony is Dec 4, 1994.

Kato said that when he and Simpson went out to dinner on the killing night, Mr. Simpson was wearing a dark sweat suit with a white zipper. It is logical to think that this was the sweat suit that Simpson wore in the exercise video.
Kato's testimony was on Nov 19, 1994

My understanding is that neither the prosecution nor the defense was able to find a dark sweat suit with a white zipper that Mr. Simpson might have been wearing either for the exercise video, or on June 12 for dinner. To put it another way, there are 3 observations of dark sweat suits that might have been worn by Mr. Simpson - the exercise video, what Kato saw on June 12, and what was in the wasing machine when the detectives got there. The prosecutions story was that there was one sweat suit.

I think the defense was unclear on this. I thought they said that Simpson didn't receive the sweat suit from the exercise video, but they never explained what happened to the sweat suit in the washing machine, or the one Kato saw Simpson wearing.

One thing I wondered about is whethe the prosecution tried to find out company manufactured the sweat suite that was in the exercise video. If they could have obtained a sweat suit similar to the one in the video, that might have been a useful comparison for dark fibers that were found at the crime scene.


the sweat suite in question did not come from richard wlash.

[martin II]

Bottom line on the sweats is that the video which showed the sweats was entered into evidence and shown during the trial. If you know of testimony that disputes that the sweats were in the washer please post it.

you still have no proof that the sweats were at ojs when the last cop left.and you have no proof that those fibers came from any sweats.bottom line.

[weezer]

you still have no proof that the sweats were at ojs when the last cop left.and you have no proof that those fibers came from any sweats.bottom line.

forget garments. think FIBERS! ;)

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, please don't come up with the theory that the detectives washed the clothes. I can feel it coming.

TV,

Has any one ever told you that you are a total kill joy?:)

[GreenIce]

Bottom line on the sweats is that the video which showed the sweats was entered into evidence and shown during the trial. If you know of testimony that disputes that the sweats were in the washer please post it.

TV,

There is no way the video tape showing the contents of the washing machine was entered into evidence. The DA's can't enter this type of evidence without a foundation as well as providing proof that these were in fact a sweat suit and this sweat suit would have fit the defendant.

IMO both Clark and VA's and Lange's books support this.

Chris Darden pulled in this in the criminal trial when he put a photo on the "elmo" and the judge went off on him. He had no proof who took the picture, when the picture was taken and if the injuries depicted in the photo was caused by the defendant.

Both Martin and I have made our position very clear on this, there is no testimony in the criminal trial that disputes this because there was no testimony to dispute beccause no one testified in the trial claiming that some of the garments in the washing machine were in fact sweats. So how can the defense dispute Fung's alleged claims about these being sweats when he never testified about them?

[GreenIce]

The woman didn't say the zipper was black. She said the jacket was black. Martin, don't you undertand that there was a photo layout in a magazine of him wearing the exercise sweats and the zipper was white or silver? It was entered into evidence at the civil trial.

TV,

Was a fiber comparison done on the sweats that Simpson was wearing the picture? Are we to believe that the DA's did not know about the photo layout?

Just to be fair, if the sweat suit that Simpson was wearing was not made of cotton blue black fibers, then is the whole issue of the sweats mute?

[tv]

TV,

Was a fiber comparison done on the sweats that Simpson was wearing the picture? Are we to believe that the DA's did not know about the photo layout?

Just to be fair, if the sweat suit that Simpson was wearing was not made of cotton blue black fibers, then is the whole issue of the sweats mute?

No, that's the whole point. The sweats are missing.

[tv]

TV,

There is no way the video tape showing the contents of the washing machine was entered into evidence. The DA's can't enter this type of evidence without a foundation as well as providing proof that these were in fact a sweat suit and this sweat suit would have fit the defendant.

IMO both Clark and VA's and Lange's books support this.

Chris Darden pulled in this in the criminal trial when he put a photo on the "elmo" and the judge went off on him. He had no proof who took the picture, when the picture was taken and if the injuries depicted in the photo was caused by the defendant.

Both Martin and I have made our position very clear on this, there is no testimony in the criminal trial that disputes this because there was no testimony to dispute beccause no one testified in the trial claiming that some of the garments in the washing machine were in fact sweats. So how can the defense dispute Fung's alleged claims about these being sweats when he never testified about them?

Yes, it absolutely was entered into evidence. You and martin are mistaken.

[tv]

TV,

Has any one ever told you that you are a total kill joy?:)

I'm sure William has or something along those lines.

[tv]

you still have no proof that the sweats were at ojs when the last cop left.and you have no proof that those fibers came from any sweats.bottom line.

OJ Simpson made sure of that.

[GreenIce]

Please enlighten me as to why the location of the maid's quarters has anything to do with the fact that sweats were found in the washer. As far as Fung's testimony and the video tape being entered into evidence it amuses me when you demand testimony and proof of evidence in the trial because you seldom offer any concrete facts yourself.

TV,

The location of the maid quarters is essential to the detectives' credibility and their actions at Rockingham. They claim they went over the fence because of the maid, however, their actions did not match their testimony.

The detectives claim that Arnelle made a comment and gesture that to them proved she did not know where here father was and therefore Vanatter used this in his search warrant--knowing full well that Simpson was out of town.

Arnelle said that she knew her father was out of town, she just didn't know which "town" he was in. There is no evidence that Arnelle that lied about anything and their is no evidence that Arnelle enterd the main house and did laundry. However, we do know for a fact that VA and MF lied.

Also, in MF's book, he says that one of the detectives, he thinks it was Phillips asked Kato if OJ was in the house. Kato did ask the question if Simpson's plane went down.

Kato was never asked where the maid was, was she inside the house, was she supposed to be inside the house.

The detectives never asked Arnelle where the maid was, was she supposed to be inside the house? VA claims he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was and Arnelle said he did not.

Had he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was, she would have told him she occupied the the guest room between her's and Kato's.

Simpson may have had a "maid's" room inside the main house put that does not mean that it was used for this purpose--that the maid had to live inside the main house.

[GreenIce]

Yes, it absolutely was entered into evidence. You and martin are mistaken.

TV,

The only video evidence I remember concerns the socks. I also remember that the DA's tried to bar the defense from using it becuase it was stickly taken for insurance purproses and therefore should not be allowed in.

So, if the video tape was only taken for insurance purposes, then why was the inside of the machine taped? Also, looking at that picture in MF's book, it appears to me that the clothes were dry--and I was wrong in a earlier post, I remembered the clothes inside the washing machine looking like they had not been touched but it is obvious know that the clothes were in fact picked up and put back.

I do not remember Fung testify about the sweats. Are you positive he did?

What I find odd is that Clark said Fung got from the hamper. So why would Clark say this while knowing MF was saying they were inside the washing machine?

[GreenIce]

Martin,

Couple of things for you.

MF also has Simpson walking into the alley way and not running out of it.

Also, didn't you post that to get into the back alley way there were two gates, one was broken and had to be moved and then another one?

Didn't Kato testify that he walked to the gates, and said that neither gate appeared to have been moved or opened? That both gates were closed?

[Lodi]

When Cowling was driving OJ in the Bronco, what was that all about? OJ had his passport, a batch of money, and his pistol. That seemed to be a telltale sign of paranoia. I suppose knowing he was innocent and all, he was certain he was being framed and needed to get out of the country.

[martin II]

TV,

There is no way the video tape showing the contents of the washing machine was entered into evidence. The DA's can't enter this type of evidence without a foundation as well as providing proof that these were in fact a sweat suit and this sweat suit would have fit the defendant.

IMO both Clark and VA's and Lange's books support this.

Chris Darden pulled in this in the criminal trial when he put a photo on the "elmo" and the judge went off on him. He had no proof who took the picture, when the picture was taken and if the injuries depicted in the photo was caused by the defendant.

Both Martin and I have made our position very clear on this, there is no testimony in the criminal trial that disputes this because there was no testimony to dispute beccause no one testified in the trial claiming that some of the garments in the washing machine were in fact sweats. So how can the defense dispute Fung's alleged claims about these being sweats when he never testified about them?

You go lady.
The video fashion lady was not called to testify about the sweats either in the criminal trial.. i could not find it by either side.

[martin II]

Martin,

Couple of things for you.

MF also has Simpson walking into the alley way and not running out of it.

Also, didn't you post that to get into the back alley way there were two gates, one was broken and had to be moved and then another one?

Didn't Kato testify that he walked to the gates, and said that neither gate appeared to have been moved or opened? That both gates were closed?

I f oj was running in the walkway as clarke claimed in the dark there would have been evidence that he did and the gates would not be closed. He certainly did not stop to put that first gate back on the hinges by that tree. not in the pitch dark.that is the problem with that idea.

[GreenIce]

I f oj was running in the walkway as clarke claimed in the dark there would have been evidence that he did and the gates would not be closed. He certainly did not stop to put that first gate back on the hinges by that tree. not in the pitch dark.that is the problem with that idea.

Martin,

IMO, the point of this is that Kato testified that both gates were closed. Even though he did not have a powerful flashlight, he still testified they were closed. Yet Fuhrman is claiming in his book that one of the gate doors was open.

Also, I always thought that all the gates on Bundy were closed as well, but one was found open?

Both Clark and MF have Simpson running into the alley and then running out, so how was he able to do this and leave no blood trail or any other evidence. I also wonder if fingerprints were taken off of the AC unit and the gates. I would think the DA's would have found this very powerful evidence, IMO.

[GreenIce]

When Cowling was driving OJ in the Bronco, what was that all about? OJ had his passport, a batch of money, and his pistol. That seemed to be a telltale sign of paranoia. I suppose knowing he was innocent and all, he was certain he was being framed and needed to get out of the country.

Lodi,

It was a well establilshed fact that Simpson (as well as Nicole) carried their passports with them all of the time and they both carried huge amounts of cash, at least what I would call a huge amount of cash on them. IIRC, he also had permits and did carry a gun in at least one of his car.

The reason why the Bronco chase was never used was because Simpson was telling the truth of where he was and what he trying to do. Another reason why the Bronco chase was never used because of part of your last post's sentence is true. He did talk to other people and he did say that he was being framed. I am not suggesting that he never thought about leaving the country, however, there is no evidence to suggest that he took any actions on this. He would have needed a lot of help to get of the country. Don't forget, all his assets were frozen, all exits out of the country were blocked and he was just to famous or his face was to well known to have fooled anybody.

Also, don't forget, AC Cowlings, had the DA's brought in the chase, AC would have been called to testify. The DA's wanted no part of this.

Perhaps you should be asking the question or questions why the DA's never used the Bronco chase.

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, the point of this is that Kato testified that both gates were closed. Even though he did not have a powerful flashlight, he still testified they were closed. Yet Fuhrman is claiming in his book that one of the gate doors was open.

Also, I always thought that all the gates on Bundy were closed as well, but one was found open?

Both Clark and MF have Simpson running into the alley and then running out, so how was he able to do this and leave no blood trail or any other evidence. I also wonder if fingerprints were taken off of the AC unit and the gates. I would think the DA's would have found this very powerful evidence, IMO.


Simple answer
clarke and furhman were wrong

oj was not in that walkway on 6/12.

[GreenIce]

OJ Simpson made sure of that.

TV,

No, OJ Simpson did not make sure of that---it was the LAPD who made sure of it.

IMO, your post shifts the burden of proof to the defense team. Why is Simpson being blamed for a piss poor performance by the LAPD and SID team, unless you believe that their performance was not piss poor?

I really interested to know your true opinons on the performance of the LAPD and SID team. I know you think the DA's did not do a great job but felt they were okay enough to secure a conviction. Again, just asking an honest question. My people say "greetings" to yours.

[GreenIce]

Simple answer
clarke and furhman were wrong

oj was not in that walkway on 6/12.

Martin,

The reason why I posted this because it is obvious and should be obvious to Mr. August that Simpson never jumped the fence and the DA's and MF's comments prove this. No one ever thought he jump the fence.

However, to be fair to Clark and Fuhrman (which is not to say that either deserve it), what if MF is telling the truth on this? That one gate was closed and the other was open--doesn't this prove that someone had to have been in the alley, behind Kato's wall after Simpson left for the airport?

While I believe that the glove was planted, I have always left open the possibility that MF did not plant the glove. While I think there is much evidence to support this, I think there is also evidence to suggest that certain people wanted Nicole and Ron's bodies to be found before Simpson left LA and the plan was already in motion to lead that trail to Simpson. Think about it, the phone call to Sojourn House was never used by the criminal trial, the story later changed in the civil trial about this phone call, and who called at 10:30 p.m. to ask about 2 bodies on Bundy?

Isn't it possible that the thump noises were made on purpose and the glove was later placed there? However, I really think the killers left the glove and hat there on purpose--even though there is no proof that the hat was worn during the commisson of the murders. I believe that glove was left outside the killing cage to indicate which exit the killers wanted the LAPD to believe. Again, IMO.

[Lodi]

Although the LAPD is crooked, I give them credit for being extremely tricky.
After deciding to frame OJ, they were able to put bloody footprints of his Italian shoes on the floorboard of his Bronco. They then disposed of the shoes since they were never found. I've always wondered why they didn't plant them in the house.

[weezer]

TV,

The location of the maid quarters is essential to the detectives' credibility and their actions at Rockingham. They claim they went over the fence because of the maid, however, their actions did not match their testimony.:shrug: the maid's room was inside the main house
The detectives claim that Arnelle made a comment and gesture that to them proved she did not know where here father was and therefore Vanatter used this in his search warrant--knowing full well that Simpson was out of town. arnelle told the detectives she didn't know where her daddy was

Arnelle said that she knew her father was out of town, she just didn't know which "town" he was in. arnelle didn't know where her daddy was -- she said she could find out from CR. There is no evidence that Arnelle that lied about anything and their is no evidence that Arnelle enterd the main house and did laundry. arnelle testified that the laundry basket and laundry was hers However, we do know for a fact that VA and MF lied.

Also, in MF's book, he says that one of the detectives, he thinks it was Phillips asked Kato if OJ was in the house. Kato did ask the question if Simpson's plane went down. Fuhrman interviewed kato

Kato was never asked where the maid was, was she inside the house, was she supposed to be inside the house. LE already knew from the security people that the maid was suppose to be in the house.

The detectives never asked Arnelle where the maid was, was she supposed to be inside the house? LE already knew from the security people that the maid was suppose to be in the house. VA claims he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was and Arnelle said he did not. LOL -- arnelle knew the maid wasn't in the house -- she'd gone in to do the laundry. remember?

Had he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was, she would have told him she occupied the the guest room between her's and Kato's. arnelle led LE through the backdoor into the house and to the maid's quarters.

Simpson may have had a "maid's" room inside the main house put that does not mean that it was used for this purpose--that the maid had to live inside the main house.

THE MAID LIVED IN THE HOUSE -- geez

[weezer]

TV,

The only video evidence I remember concerns the socks. :shrug: I also remember that the DA's tried to bar the defense from using it becuase it was stickly taken for insurance purproses and therefore should not be allowed in. link to this testimony

So, if the video tape was only taken for insurance purposes, then why was the inside of the machine taped? Also, looking at that picture in MF's book, it appears to me that the clothes were dry--and I was wrong in a earlier post, I remembered the clothes inside the washing machine looking like they had not been touched but it is obvious know that the clothes were in fact picked up and put back.

I do not remember Fung testify about the sweats. Are you positive he did?

What I find odd is that Clark said Fung got from the hamper. So why would Clark say this while knowing MF was saying they were inside the washing machine?

:shrug:

[weezer]

When Cowling was driving OJ in the Bronco, what was that all about? OJ had his passport, a batch of money, and his pistol. That seemed to be a telltale sign of paranoia. I suppose knowing he was innocent and all, he was certain he was being framed and needed to get out of the country.

it seems that orenthal's paranoia really kicked in during those hours. wasn't the story that he was driving around looking for a place to kill himself because kardashian told him not at his house? oh wait, maybe he was trying to get gone -- the gun, the money, the passport, the disguise -- sure seems like the kinda stuff you'd need to run doesn't it?

[weezer]

Lodi,

It was a well establilshed fact that Simpson (as well as Nicole) carried their passports with them all of the time and they both carried huge amounts of cash, at least what I would call a huge amount of cash on them. link to testimony that Nicole carried her passport and large sums of money IIRC, he also had permits and did carry a gun in at least one of his car. link to orenthal having a permit to carry a gun

The reason why the Bronco chase was never used was because Simpson was telling the truth of where he was and what he trying to do. Another reason why the Bronco chase was never used because of part of your last post's sentence is true. He did talk to other people and he did say that he was being framed. IF orenthal talked to other people, it wasn't during the bronco ride I am not suggesting that he never thought about leaving the country, however, there is no evidence to suggest that he took any actions on this. He would have needed a lot of help to get of the country. Don't forget, all his assets were frozen, all exits out of the country were blocked and he was just to famous or his face was to well known to have fooled anybody. link to his assets being frozen and all exits out of the country being blocked.

Also, don't forget, AC Cowlings, had the DA's brought in the chase, AC would have been called to testify. The DA's wanted no part of this. trust me, LE wanted ac to testify but he pled the 5th

Perhaps you should be asking the question or questions why the DA's never used the Bronco chase.

I think the even better question or questions would be why orenthal made statements like, "I'm the only one that deserves to die" and "you guys have been good to me." or why didn't he accuse LE of framing him and declaring his innocence.

[weezer]

Martin,

The reason why I posted this because it is obvious and should be obvious to Mr. August that Simpson never jumped the fence and the DA's and MF's comments prove this. No one ever thought he jump the fence. :punch:EVERYONE believes he jumped the fence

However, to be fair to Clark and Fuhrman (which is not to say that either deserve it), what if MF is telling the truth on this? That one gate was closed and the other was open--doesn't this prove that someone had to have been in the alley, behind Kato's wall after Simpson left for the airport? some more cherry picking of evidence? kato can't be believed on anything but whether or not the gates were closed? LOL

While I believe that the glove was planted, I have always left open the possibility that MF did not plant the glove. While I think there is much evidence to support this, as two judges (criminal and civil) have said, it takes a leap of logic to believe evidence was planted by LE. I think there is also evidence to suggest that certain people wanted Nicole and Ron's bodies to be found before Simpson left LA and the plan was already in motion to lead that trail to Simpson. Think about it, the phone call to Sojourn House was never used by the criminal trial, the story later changed in the civil trial about this phone call, :no: what changed? and who called at 10:30 p.m. to ask about 2 bodies on Bundy? IIRC, testimony from the LE on duty that night said those kind of calls were common.

Isn't it possible that the thump noises were made on purpose and the glove was later placed there? However, I really think the killers left the glove and hat there on purpose--even though there is no proof that the hat was worn during the commisson of the murders. I believe that glove was left outside the killing cage to indicate which exit the killers wanted the LAPD to believe. Again, IMO.

all I can say is "WOW" -- :punch:

[weezer]

TV,

No, OJ Simpson did not make sure of that---it was the LAPD who made sure of it.

IMO, your post shifts the burden of proof to the defense team. Why is Simpson being blamed for a piss poor performance by the LAPD and SID team, unless you believe that their performance was not piss poor?

I really interested to know your true opinons on the performance of the LAPD and SID team. I know you think the DA's did not do a great job but felt they were okay enough to secure a conviction. Again, just asking an honest question. My people say "greetings" to yours.

cockroach knew his audience and used their ignorance and personal agenda to get a double murderer off. ;)

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, the point of this is that Kato testified that both gates were closed. Even though he did not have a powerful flashlight, he still testified they were closed. Yet Fuhrman is claiming in his book that one of the gate doors was open.

Also, I always thought that all the gates on Bundy were closed as well, but one was found open?

Both Clark and MF have Simpson running into the alley and then running out, so how was he able to do this and leave no blood trail or any other evidence. I also wonder if fingerprints were taken off of the AC unit and the gates. I would think the DA's would have found this very powerful evidence, IMO.

walkway gates were both closed when kato first walked there.furhman went there AFTER kato had made two trips so he does not know what gates were open or closed when kato first walked there.
As wagner said anyone running in that area throught the vines would have ended on their butt.

bundy
it is believed that when heidstra heard the gate clang closed it was ron slamming the gate closed. the front gate.they say the one killer left by the back gate.,if there was two killers one left by the back and one by the front gate and it was left open.otherwise how did the dog get out the front gate.or how did the dog get out at all.that dog could have just jumped over the gate. imo

[martin II]

Although the LAPD is crooked, I give them credit for being extremely tricky.
After deciding to frame OJ, they were able to put bloody footprints of his Italian shoes on the floorboard of his Bronco. They then disposed of the shoes since they were never found. I've always wondered why they didn't plant them in the house.

LODI

HI

OJ always carried his passport on his person/ most people that travel a lot do the same.i know i do. Paula testified and other friends knew that he always carried large sums of cash on him.For a man worth $10,000,00 that is not unusual.OJ knew the mexican and canadian borders were closed by lapd for him.HE and AC went to nicoles grave site but saw le and left. they parked and talked the situation out, drove to the highway to return to his house when they were spotted.i believe he was confused about what to do but quicvkle came to his senses and returned to give up.thay is why the DA did not use the bronco ride.

if there is any one that knows how to frame a defendant without leaving a trace it is the lapd detectives.

[martin II]

Martin,

The reason why I posted this because it is obvious and should be obvious to Mr. August that Simpson never jumped the fence and the DA's and MF's comments prove this. No one ever thought he jump the fence.

However, to be fair to Clark and Fuhrman (which is not to say that either deserve it), what if MF is telling the truth on this? That one gate was closed and the other was open--doesn't this prove that someone had to have been in the alley, behind Kato's wall after Simpson left for the airport?

While I believe that the glove was planted, I have always left open the possibility that MF did not plant the glove. While I think there is much evidence to support this, I think there is also evidence to suggest that certain people wanted Nicole and Ron's bodies to be found before Simpson left LA and the plan was already in motion to lead that trail to Simpson. Think about it, the phone call to Sojourn House was never used by the criminal trial, the story later changed in the civil trial about this phone call, and who called at 10:30 p.m. to ask about 2 bodies on Bundy?

Isn't it possible that the thump noises were made on purpose and the glove was later placed there? However, I really think the killers left the glove and hat there on purpose--even though there is no proof that the hat was worn during the commisson of the murders. I believe that glove was left outside the killing cage to indicate which exit the killers wanted the LAPD to believe. Again, IMO.

during the trial i remember many talking heads and legal experts saying that the prosecutions case was falling apart.so i guess the jury was not the only group that thought the prosecution dfid not prove their case.

[martin II]

Martin,

Couple of things for you.

MF also has Simpson walking into the alley way and not running out of it.

Also, didn't you post that to get into the back alley way there were two gates, one was broken and had to be moved and then another one?

Didn't Kato testify that he walked to the gates, and said that neither gate appeared to have been moved or opened? That both gates were closed?

the first gate was broken and hanging on a hinge. kato lifted it and prtoped it against that three. the second gate was closed and had to be opened at the latch.
After his last trip. kato left the first gate open.
the situations of the two gates is further proof that oj was not there running in that walkway.

[martin II]

Yes, it absolutely was entered into evidence. You and martin are mistaken.

Show me

[weezer]

Show me

nah -- you show us!

[tv]

walkway gates were both closed when kato first walked there.furhman went there AFTER kato had made two trips so he does not know what gates were open or closed when kato first walked there.
As wagner said anyone running in that area throught the vines would have ended on their butt.

bundy
it is believed that when heidstra heard the gate clang closed it was ron slamming the gate closed. the front gate.they say the one killer left by the back gate.,if there was two killers one left by the back and one by the front gate and it was left open.otherwise how did the dog get out the front gate.or how did the dog get out at all.that dog could have just jumped over the gate. imo

The dog didn't jump over the gate. The gate was open when the body of Nicole was discovered.

[tv]

the first gate was broken and hanging on a hinge. kato lifted it and prtoped it against that three. the second gate was closed and had to be opened at the latch.
After his last trip. kato left the first gate open.
the situations of the two gates is further proof that oj was not there running in that walkway.

I'm wondering why a man worth 10 million would have a broken gate and a rusty washer.

[martin II]

tv

Well if clarke said the clothes were in a hamper and that is true,what the hell was a picture of the washing machine about. i could not see any clothes in the picture of the washing machine you posted.

what proof do you have that the sweats were not in the hamper.?

[weezer]

tv

Well if clarke said the clothes were in a hamper and that is true,what the hell was a picture of the washing machine about. i could not see any clothes in the picture of the washing machine you posted.

what proof do you have that the sweats were not in the hamper.?

you know the term "a picture is worth a thousand words"? Well, the picture is of the sweats in the washer. fini

[martin II]

I'm wondering why a man worth 10 million would have a broken gate and a rusty washer.

The walkway was a area never used by people. There was a lot of old construction materials and old stuff left there.There was nothing or anything there for regular use.i guess at some time the gate was broken and never fixed.i guess most washing machines have some rusk.but what does that matter?

[weezer]

I'm wondering why a man worth 10 million would have a broken gate and a rusty washer.

that pretty much sums up orenthal's life don't you think? what you 'think' you see and what you 'think' you know isn't what really is. probably why he and cockroach got along so famously -- smoke and mirrors and nobody is what they appear to be.

[weezer]

The walkway was a area never used by people. There was a lot of old construction materials and old stuff left there.There was nothing or anything there for regular use.i guess at some time the gate was broken and never fixed.i guess most washing machines have some rusk.but what does that matter?

surely someone used it martin -- like the cable guy and orenthal. who in the world ever testified that there was a lot of old construction materials there?

the broken gate and the washing machine with rust is a great metaphor for orenthal's life.

wouldn't you think your 'snappy dresser' hero would be concerned about his 'snappy clothes' being ruined? LOL

[martin II]

The dog didn't jump over the gate. The gate was open when the body of Nicole was discovered.

i am not saying he did but if rom slammed the front gate closed when hedistra said he head the gate slammed closed. exactly how did the gate become open for the dog to get out to the street? you got a answer to that?

[martin II]

Wagner commented on the old construction materials stored in the east end of the walkway left there when the bongolows were constructed which prevented anyone from walking through the walkway.i think there was a picture of that area.
The problem with oj being in the walkway is there was no proof that he jumped the fence and ran or walked in that area. But for some proof is not needed. its ok to just make up stuff if they think it points to ojs guilt.hahaha.

[weezer]

Wagner commented on the old construction materials stored in the east end of the walkway left there when the bongolows were constructed which prevented anyone from walking through the walkway.i think there was a picture of that area.
The problem with oj being in the walkway is there was no proof that he jumped the fence and ran or walked in that area. But for some proof is not needed. its ok to just make up stuff if they think it points to ojs guilt.hahaha.

like I said, "one picture is worth a thousand words" -- do you see old construction materials on the walkway in the pictures taken by LE? for some, the proof of orenthal's bloody glove containing blood and fiber from the victims and orenthal found on the walkway that kato said he heard noises coming from is absolutely enough to point to orenthal's guilt. hahahahaha

[weezer]

i am not saying he did but if rom slammed the front gate closed when hedistra said he head the gate slammed closed. exactly how did the gate become open for the dog to get out to the street? you got a answer to that?

hmmm -- heidstra said he heard the gate slam closed? uh-no.

[tv]

i am not saying he did but if rom slammed the front gate closed when hedistra said he head the gate slammed closed. exactly how did the gate become open for the dog to get out to the street? you got a answer to that?

Obviously someone left it open. What's your point?

[tv]

Wagner commented on the old construction materials stored in the east end of the walkway left there when the bongolows were constructed which prevented anyone from walking through the walkway.i think there was a picture of that area.
The problem with oj being in the walkway is there was no proof that he jumped the fence and ran or walked in that area. But for some proof is not needed. its ok to just make up stuff if they think it points to ojs guilt.hahaha.

The glove containing the blood of OJ Simpson in three areas is proof that he was in the possession of the glove and dropped it when he was returning from Bundy. hahaha

[martin II]

that walkway was not used by oj nicole kato or arnell because there was no reason to use it as it led to nowhere. it was only a back path located on the south side of the house. the cabel guy comming once to install tv does not mean that it was a regurlarly used path.the growth was only cut in the spring of the year which is why it was so heavy with over growth that june.
i guess nicole didn't care about the rusk in the washing machine either.

[tv]

that walkway was not used by oj nicole kato or arnell because there was no reason to use it as it led to nowhere. it was only a back path located on the south side of the house. the cabel guy comming once to install tv does not mean that it was a regurlarly used path.the growth was only cut in the spring of the year which is why it was so heavy with over growth that june.
i guess nicole didn't care about the rusk in the washing machine either.

I can hear Simpson saying to himself 'I'd better find another way onto the property because this is an unused path'. Come on, martin.

Why would Nicole care about the rust in OJ Simpson's washing machine? I'm sure she had a washing machine of her own.

[martin II]

The glove containing the blood of OJ Simpson in three areas is proof that he was in the possession of the glove and dropped it when he was returning from Bundy. hahaha

nope
that only means that a glove was found there with ojs blood on it. That does not prove that he was in that walkway and dropped it there. You now have to present PROOF that he was physically there to drop the glove and guess what there is no poof that oj jumped any fence, or was ever physically in that walkway. you telling yourself that he must have been there just because a glove was found does not offer proof.hahaha

Thats what happens when you don't have proof you just say well he must have been there.

[weezer]

I can hear Simpson saying to himself 'I'd better find another way onto the property because this is an unused path'. Come on, martin.

Why would Nicole care about the rust in OJ Simpson's washing machine? I'm sure she had a washing machine of her own.

yeah -- the route through the backyard and over the fence wasn't going to work this time.

[martin II]

I can hear Simpson saying to himself 'I'd better find another way onto the property because this is an unused path'. Come on, martin.

Why would Nicole care about the rust in OJ Simpson's washing machine? I'm sure she had a washing machine of her own.

oh
i thought nicole lived there before oj bounced her.

[weezer]

oh
i thought nicole lived there before oj bounced her.

yeah -- she left a long time before he killed her. are you conveniently forgetting orenthal's testimony about how hurt and upset he was that she left him? did you forget orenthal's testimony about calling her mother everyday to talk about how much he loved Nicole and wanted her to come home?

[tv]

nope
that only means that a glove was found there with ojs blood on it. That does not prove that he was in that walkway and dropped it there. You now have to present PROOF that he was physically there to drop the glove and guess what there is no poof that oj jumped any fence, or was ever physically in that walkway. you telling yourself that he must have been there just because a glove was found does not offer proof.hahaha

Thats what happens when you don't have proof you just say well he must have been there.

Then what you're saying is no one should be charged or convicted of murder without an eye witness.

The DNA and fibers on the glove is PROOF. If it weren't proof the defense wouldn't have floated their planting theory.

[tv]

oh
i thought nicole lived there before oj bounced her.She lived there before she wised up and decided not to put up with his insane possessiveness and beatings any longer. Besides, how do you know it was the same machine that was there when Nicole lived there?

[martin II]

I can hear Simpson saying to himself 'I'd better find another way onto the property because this is an unused path'. Come on, martin.

Why would Nicole care about the rust in OJ Simpson's washing machine? I'm sure she had a washing machine of her own.

anyway you look at it oj was already on his property so i don't think he said any such thing to himself. if oj had been standing near the garage, all he had to do is walk near the kitchen nook and into his front door without being seen by park.

But oj was in his house when park arrived. he was taking a shower and did not answer the buzzer as quick as park thought he should have and a part of parks testimony supports the idea that he was.

[GreenIce]

walkway gates were both closed when kato first walked there.furhman went there AFTER kato had made two trips so he does not know what gates were open or closed when kato first walked there.
As wagner said anyone running in that area throught the vines would have ended on their butt.

bundy
it is believed that when heidstra heard the gate clang closed it was ron slamming the gate closed. the front gate.they say the one killer left by the back gate.,if there was two killers one left by the back and one by the front gate and it was left open.otherwise how did the dog get out the front gate.or how did the dog get out at all.that dog could have just jumped over the gate. imo

Martin,

IMO, this is a major piece of evidence that has been overlooked--unless MF did not testify about it in the criminal trial. Even MF is now admitting that the gate door was opened after Simpson left the estate.

Have you ever read his book? Did I ever put enough pressure on you to do so, read MF's book? I have been looking it over and it has a lot of details that IMO, support that in his book he went after Lange, Vanatter and even Phillips.

He also spends a lto of time promoting Brad Roberts.

[weezer]

She lived there before she wised up and decided not to put up with his insane possessiveness and beatings any longer. Besides, how do you know it was the same machine that was there when Nicole lived there?

wow -- looks like martin wants to rewrite history about the break up. wonder why he thinks that's important enough to lie about?

LOL -- I was hoping Nicole got the washer and dryer in the settlement and orenthal had to buy used!

[weezer]

anyway you look at it oj was already on his property so i don't think he said any such thing to himself. if oj had been standing near the garage, all he had to do is walk near the kitchen nook and into his front door without being seen by park.

But oj was in his house when park arrived. he was taking a shower and did not answer the buzzer as quick as park thought he should have and a part of parks testimony supports the idea that he was.

that was a pretty long shower for someone in a big ole hurry don't you agree?

[weezer]

Martin,

IMO, this is a major piece of evidence that has been overlooked--unless MF did not testify about it in the criminal trial. it hasn't been overlooked Even MF is now admitting that the gate door was opened after Simpson left the estate. LOL -- 'now admitting'? LOL -- it was in the original statement.

Have you ever read his book? Did I ever put enough pressure on you to do so, read MF's book? I have been looking it over and it has a lot of details that IMO, support that in his book he went after Lange, Vanatter and even Phillips. he went after them where?

He also spends a lto of time promoting Brad Roberts.

:shrug: yeah -- that's real sinister.

[martin II]

She lived there before she wised up and decided not to put up with his insane possessiveness and beatings any longer. Besides, how do you know it was the same machine that was there when Nicole lived there?

With two kids i guess she used the washing machine but oj had a maid so maby nicole never used that machine.but if oj baught a new one i doubt it would be rusty.

[weezer]

With two kids i guess she used the washing machine but oj had a maid so maby nicole never used that machine.but if oj baught a new one i doubt it would be rusty.

psst -- there was always a maid at rockingham and Nicole also had a maid after she left rockingham. I'm thinking he had to buy used.

[tv]

With two kids i guess she used the washing machine but oj had a maid so maby nicole never used that machine.but if oj baught a new one i doubt it would be rusty.

Who knows and who cares how old the machine was? The fact is that there was rust found on it.

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, this is a major piece of evidence that has been overlooked--unless MF did not testify about it in the criminal trial. Even MF is now admitting that the gate door was opened after Simpson left the estate.

Have you ever read his book? Did I ever put enough pressure on you to do so, read MF's book? I have been looking it over and it has a lot of details that IMO, support that in his book he went after Lange, Vanatter and even Phillips.

He also spends a lto of time promoting Brad Roberts.

GI

HE DID
I saw furhman go after lang and vanhatter live on tv on Geraldo and saw them push right back at him.they acctually argued on tv.lang and vanhatter treated him like he was some publicity kook.imo

[GreenIce]

The walkway was a area never used by people. There was a lot of old construction materials and old stuff left there.There was nothing or anything there for regular use.i guess at some time the gate was broken and never fixed.i guess most washing machines have some rusk.but what does that matter?

Martin,

IMO, "rust" excuse is just that. By saying the dark stains on the clothes and inside the washing machine is taking is allowing the LAPD to float another excuse why evidence was collected and not having to have explain it in court.

There is no way Clark would have allowed Hank Goldberg to even mention the clothes in the washing machine, not when she said the clothes were in the hamper.

I think Johnnie Cochran asked Arnelle if they were her clothes in the washing machine but I can't find it.

[tv]

psst -- there was always a maid at rockingham and Nicole also had a maid after she left rockingham. I'm thinking he had to buy used.

I'm thinking you're right. I hate to think what condition the dryer was in! :eek:

[GreenIce]

Who knows and who cares how old the machine was? The fact is that there was rust found on it.

TV,

Where is the evidence of this? Who testified that they examined the dark stains in the washing machine and determined them to be rust? The only person who could have testified about this was Fung and I don't think he ever testified about this.

[martin II]

Who knows and who cares how old the machine was? The fact is that there was rust found on it.

You must care as it was you that first wondered why a $10,000,00 man would have a rusty machine. :cool:

[tv]

Martin,

IMO, "rust" excuse is just that. By saying the dark stains on the clothes and inside the washing machine is taking is allowing the LAPD to float another excuse why evidence was collected and not having to have explain it in court.

There is no way Clark would have allowed Hank Goldberg to even mention the clothes in the washing machine, not when she said the clothes were in the hamper.

I think Johnnie Cochran asked Arnelle if they were her clothes in the washing machine but I can't find it.

What rust excuse? The sweats were not collected. You keep saying this but it's just your imagination that it ever happened. They left the sweats in the washer because they didn't realize the significance of them. Fung examined the spots that he thought might be blood and they turned out to be rust. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your theory of Simpson's innocence. The clothes in the washer were mentioned by the prosecution whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

[GreenIce]

GI

HE DID
I saw furhman go after lang and vanhatter live on tv on Geraldo and saw them push right back at him.they acctually argued on tv.lang and vanhatter treated him like he was some publicity kook.imo

Martin,

I'll never forget MF saying on TV that he was not the only member of the LAPD who committed perjury during the Simpson trial. In reading his book, he nails Vanatter every chance he gets as he does Lange and some what Phillps.

He claims that Brad Roberts saw blood inside the Bronco before Vanatter wrote the search warrant. However, he says that he watched the photographer take a picture of the one blood stain on the Bronco but doesn't point out the "wisps" of blood on the door sill. Does that make sense to you? He also says that Fung never tests it. None of this makes any sense.

However, you can tell MF is a bit miffed at VA when he reverses MF's order the Bronco be impounded.

[martin II]

Who knows and who cares how old the machine was? The fact is that there was rust found on it.

So fung tested the stain and determined it was rusk.

[tv]

You must care as it was you that first wondered why a $10,000,00 man would have a rusty machine. :cool:

:shrug: You're the one that cares that we're laughing at his rusty washing machine.

[martin II]

What rust excuse? The sweats were not collected. You keep saying this but it's just your imagination that it ever happened. They left the sweats in the washer because they didn't realize the significance of them. Fung examined the spots that he thought might be blood and they turned out to be rust. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your theory of Simpson's innocence. The clothes in the washer were mentioned by the prosecution whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

if they were looking for murder clothes i don't understand why a sweat suite in a washing machine didn't ring a bell in his little head. i don't know exactly what it is but there is something wrong with the whole sweats in the washing machine, i saw it but left it, i could not find it when i came back lie.

[GreenIce]

What rust excuse? The sweats were not collected. You keep saying this but it's just your imagination that it ever happened. They left the sweats in the washer because they didn't realize the significance of them. Fung examined the spots that he thought might be blood and they turned out to be rust. Sorry if that doesn't fit into your theory of Simpson's innocence. The clothes in the washer were mentioned by the prosecution whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

TV,

Who testified in the trial about there being an extra large man's sweat suit found in the washing machine? Who testified that the dark spots found were rust spots?

The reality of the situation is that the LAPD knew that a washing machine was a common place to look for evidence. However, it appears to me this is where it gets interesting--by claiming that the video tape was taken to document this evidence goes against what they said about the video taping of Simpson's bedroom. There were no still photographs taken of the washing machine. There were no individual photos taken of all the garments inside the washing machine.

If Arnelle washed those clothes at about 2:00 a.m. that morning, they would not have appear to be bone dry. Another issue you have is the reason that Fung told, not testified to, why he didn't collect the sweats.

If he collected the socks because they looked out of place, then why wouldn't he collect the sweat suit when it was the only male garment in it?

The problem is you don't see to understand that the defense never floated any theories about the evidence, but the LAPD, SID and DA's did it. Heck, they were better then David Copperfield, IMO.

The DA's could "mention" anything they wanted to in their opening and closing statements, however, during the actual trial, they had to do more then that.

The judge never would have allowed them to introduce this unless they could provided a solid foundation as well as some proof that the garment was indeed a man's sweat suit.

From your previous posts, you have already pointed out that there were pictures of Simpson wearing a sweat suit, then why weren't these photos used? They did it with the gloves, why not the sweat suit?

[GreenIce]

if they were looking for murder clothes i don't understand why a sweat suite in a washing machine didn't ring a bell in his little head. i don't know exactly what it is but there is something wrong with the whole sweats in the washing machine, i saw it but left it, i could not find it when i came back lie.

Martin,

First off, Kato was questioned twice that day and both times before they left Rockingham and allowed the Simpson family back in. After he was questioned, by MF, he was taken down to the station and questioned some more. So they knew that Kato believed that Simpson was wearing a sweat suit or dark clothes.

I remember some of the comments made about Lange only taking a pair of Simpson's sneakers. The questions that were raised was why wasn't Simpson's closets emptied and all his shoes and clothes were taken by the police?

In Shapiro's book he says that other items of clothing was taken and searched for blood, a shirt and a scarf. The next item of evidence that was supposed to be tested was the socks. But apparently they got tired and forgot about them until August.

[martin II]

:shrug: You're the one that cares that we're laughing at his rusty washing machine.

I am wondering why two adults frequently act like jealous jr high school little girls. I can understand why you would be pissed at ojs wealth level but it is what it is.

[GreenIce]

if they were looking for murder clothes i don't understand why a sweat suite in a washing machine didn't ring a bell in his little head. i don't know exactly what it is but there is something wrong with the whole sweats in the washing machine, i saw it but left it, i could not find it when i came back lie.

Martin,

IMO, this is where very smart witnesses, LE members and lawyers really show their "stuff". First of Kato was never positive about what Simpson was wearing even after seeing Simpson wear this sweat suit three times that night as well as during the evening and inside Simpson's lit kitchen. The fact he got it wrong when Simpson went to the airport did play to the advantage of the DA's. Just like Nurse, Rokhar, the DA's were going for the "not sure" defense of this evidence.

However, if all the clothing in side the washing machine were in fact, a females, then Fung would not be lying if he said he found sweats and put them back because they did not look out of place.

[martin II]

Martin,

First off, Kato was questioned twice that day and both times before they left Rockingham and allowed the Simpson family back in. After he was questioned, by MF, he was taken down to the station and questioned some more. So they knew that Kato believed that Simpson was wearing a sweat suit or dark clothes.

I remember some of the comments made about Lange only taking a pair of Simpson's sneakers. The questions that were raised was why wasn't Simpson's closets emptied and all his shoes and clothes were taken by the police?

In Shapiro's book he says that other items of clothing was taken and searched for blood, a shirt and a scarf. The next item of evidence that was supposed to be tested was the socks. But apparently they got tired and forgot about them until August.

maby the lab persoin asked fung wth do i do with these socks there is no blood on them. When the case was falling apart the DA thought they needed
something to help out and the call went out to the lab and someone put some blood on the sock and the DA pulled them out.What a bunch of crooks.
but the defence caught them at their trick and everone realized that the blood on the sock was planted.

[tv]

I am wondering why two adults frequently act like jealous jr high school little girls. I can understand why you would be pissed at ojs wealth level but it is what it is. All this because OJ Simpson had a rusty washing machine and a broken gate? hahaha

[tv]

maby the lab persoin asked fung wth do i do with these socks there is no blood on them. When the case was falling apart the DA thought they needed
something to help out and the call went out to the lab and someone put some blood on the sock and the DA pulled them out.What a bunch of crooks.
but the defence caught them at their trick and everone realized that the blood on the sock was planted.

Follow the yellow brick road...:biggrin:

[GreenIce]

maby the lab persoin asked fung wth do i do with these socks there is no blood on them. When the case was falling apart the DA thought they needed
something to help out and the call went out to the lab and someone put some blood on the sock and the DA pulled them out.What a bunch of crooks.
but the defence caught them at their trick and everone realized that the blood on the sock was planted.

Martin

IMO, no one in the lab was asked to do any thing like this. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that if evidence was planted, it had to involve several people in different agencies as well as had to be done in front of witnesses and at least one of these witnesses would have come forward.

Also, lab people are not the only people who have access to these rooms. Detectives of a certain rank are allowed access to them as well.

Again, I would like to make the point if Fung and Mozzola believed evidence was planted or that she was positive about her initials on the bindles, they could not saying anything because just like the defense in the civil trial, they would have had to provide names, times and why's this was done. IMO.

[tv]

TV,

Who testified in the trial about there being an extra large man's sweat suit found in the washing machine? Who testified that the dark spots found were rust spots?

The reality of the situation is that the LAPD knew that a washing machine was a common place to look for evidence. However, it appears to me this is where it gets interesting--by claiming that the video tape was taken to document this evidence goes against what they said about the video taping of Simpson's bedroom. There were no still photographs taken of the washing machine. There were no individual photos taken of all the garments inside the washing machine.

If Arnelle washed those clothes at about 2:00 a.m. that morning, they would not have appear to be bone dry. Another issue you have is the reason that Fung told, not testified to, why he didn't collect the sweats.

If he collected the socks because they looked out of place, then why wouldn't he collect the sweat suit when it was the only male garment in it?

The problem is you don't see to understand that the defense never floated any theories about the evidence, but the LAPD, SID and DA's did it. Heck, they were better then David Copperfield, IMO.

The DA's could "mention" anything they wanted to in their opening and closing statements, however, during the actual trial, they had to do more then that.

The judge never would have allowed them to introduce this unless they could provided a solid foundation as well as some proof that the garment was indeed a man's sweat suit.

From your previous posts, you have already pointed out that there were pictures of Simpson wearing a sweat suit, then why weren't these photos used? They did it with the gloves, why not the sweat suit?

GreenIce, no one ever said the sweat suit was an extra large. No one ever said the clothes were 'bone dry'. The video of the washer did come into the trial. I'm sorry if you don't realize that. I've repeated over and over why Fung didn't collect the sweats. My answer isn't going to change.

The defense floated many theories about the evidence. Dennis Fung was asked if he poured off any blood from Simpson's reference blood vial.

The pictures of OJ Simpson wearing a sweat suit with a white or silver zipper was presented in the civil trial.

[GreenIce]

Follow the yellow brick road...:biggrin:

TV,

The "Yellow Brick Road" was made brick by brick by the LAPD and SID departments. I don't know if you have read Hank Goldberg's book but he does go into this a bit and he blames these "bricks" on severe underfunding of the SID team and the lack of training of SID employees. He also brings up an excellent point about how evidence was stored and how it was taken for granted that the evidence was simply secure because it was kept inside the lab.

[martin II]

All this because OJ Simpson had a rusty washing machine and a broken gate? hahaha

under normal circumstances it would be a non issue but because it is ojs washer and gate how could you pass up the opportunity to act like kids.

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, no one ever said the sweat suit was an extra large. No one ever said the clothes were 'bone dry'. The video of the washer did come into the trial. I'm sorry if you don't realize that. I've repeated over and over why Fung didn't collect the sweats. My answer isn't going to change.

The defense floated many theories about the evidence. Dennis Fung was asked if he poured off any blood from Simpson's reference blood vial.

The pictures of OJ Simpson wearing a sweat suit with a white or silver zipper was presented in the civil trial.

TV,

No one ever described the garments that were said to be sweats, in the criminal trial, period. Any description of the clothes inside the washing machine or inside the hamper after the trial mean nothing.

Do you remember who was testifying when this video was entered into evidence?

IMO, the color of the zipper means nothing since it was not made out fabric and does not shed fibers. However, if a picture was taken of Simpson in a sweat suit that was close to what Kato had described, it makes no sense fiber comparisons were not done.

The problem is not what Fung said this issue but when he said it as well as he had never provided a description of them.

Also, wasn't the sweat suit that was talked about in the civil trial made of different a different fabric and was gray?

[tv]

TV,

The "Yellow Brick Road" was made brick by brick by the LAPD and SID departments. I don't know if you have read Hank Goldberg's book but he does go into this a bit and he blames these "bricks" on severe underfunding of the SID team and the lack of training of SID employees. He also brings up an excellent point about how evidence was stored and how it was taken for granted that the evidence was simply secure because it was kept inside the lab.

The yellow brick road is the road regularly travelled on in search of nonexistant police conspiracies, frame-ups, twisting of evidence, and phantom killers -- anything that makes OJ Simpson appear to be innocent of killing Ron and Nicole.

[tv]

TV,

No one ever described the garments that were said to be sweats, in the criminal trial, period. Any description of the clothes inside the washing machine or inside the hamper after the trial mean nothing.

Do you remember who was testifying when this video was entered into evidence?

IMO, the color of the zipper means nothing since it was not made out fabric and does not shed fibers. However, if a picture was taken of Simpson in a sweat suit that was close to what Kato had described, it makes no sense fiber comparisons were not done.

The problem is not what Fung said this issue but when he said it as well as he had never provided a description of them.

Also, wasn't the sweat suit that was talked about in the civil trial made of different a different fabric and was gray?

Yes, I remember.

I don't recall anything about a gray sweat suit. :shrug:

[tv]

under normal circumstances it would be a non issue but because it is ojs washer and gate how could you pass up the opportunity to act like kids.

I can't help you don't have a sense of humor. Not my problem.

[GreenIce]

[QUOTE=tvdinner;9200376]The defense floated many theories about the evidence. Dennis Fung was asked if he poured off any blood from Simpson's reference blood vial.


TV,

I can understand why the defense would ask him this question, it is obvious they did not believe that he did it. If he planted the blood, why would he deny seeing it? There was no one in Simpson's bedroom who could have contradicted this when he examined them then.

[GreenIce]

Yes, I remember.

I don't recall anything about a gray sweat suit. :shrug:

TV,

Okay, who was it that was tesifying about this when it was enterd into evidence and who described the contents of the washing machine?

[GreenIce]

The yellow brick road is the road regularly travelled on in search of nonexistant police conspiracies, frame-ups, twisting of evidence, and phantom killers -- anything that makes OJ Simpson appear to be innocent of killing Ron and Nicole.

TV,

I have often posted that the evidence I believed was planted did not mean that Simpson was innocent.

The defense did not twist the evidence but presented a rebuttal to each and every piece of evidence and they talked the talked and walked the walk in the their case.

However, the DA's talked the talk but could not walk the walk, IMO.

[tv]

TV,

Okay, who was it that was tesifying about this when it was enterd into evidence and who described the contents of the washing machine?

I don't know everyone that discussed it but it's People's Exhibit 1068.

[tv]

TV,

I have often posted that the evidence I believed was planted did not mean that Simpson was innocent.

The defense did not twist the evidence but presented a rebuttal to each and every piece of evidence and they talked the talked and walked the walk in the their case.

However, the DA's talked the talk but could not walk the walk, IMO.

You've said many times you think OJ Simpson is innocent. You're entitled to your opinion.

[tv]

The walkway was a area never used by people. There was a lot of old construction materials and old stuff left there.There was nothing or anything there for regular use.i guess at some time the gate was broken and never fixed.i guess most washing machines have some rusk.but what does that matter?

GiGi Guarin testified that she sometimes went behind the bungalows.

[GreenIce]

You've said many times you think OJ Simpson is innocent. You're entitled to your opinion.

TV,

Yes, do believe Simpson is innocent. My point, which I should have made clearer, is that it is possible to believe that Simpson is guilty and that evidence was planted.

For example, if the gloves found were not a match in model number, that does not mean that Simpson is innocent.

If there was never blood found the socks, that does not mean he is innocent.

If the blood on the back gate was never seen by anyone, does not mean Simpson is innocent.

If Simpson appeared to be the perfect husband, does not mean he is innocent.

[GreenIce]

Does anyone know where the list of all evidence that was taken from Bundy and Rockingham?

Does anyone know where the list of exhibits can be found?

[tv]

Does anyone know where the list of all evidence that was taken from Bundy and Rockingham?

Does anyone know where the list of exhibits can be found?

I find exhibit numbers by looking at the testimony. I don't know where there's a complete list.

[GreenIce]

I find exhibit numbers by looking at the testimony. I don't know where there's a complete list.

TV,

Do you recall who was testifying with this exhibt came in?

[martin II]

GreenIce, no one ever said the sweat suit was an extra large. No one ever said the clothes were 'bone dry'. The video of the washer did come into the trial. I'm sorry if you don't realize that. I've repeated over and over why Fung didn't collect the sweats. My answer isn't going to change.

The defense floated many theories about the evidence. Dennis Fung was asked if he poured off any blood from Simpson's reference blood vial.

The pictures of OJ Simpson wearing a sweat suit with a white or silver zipper was presented in the civil trial.

i have looked at evidence presented in the civil trial and have found no listing.since you have repeated this claim can you post the link to the pictures?

[tv]

TV,

Do you recall who was testifying with this exhibt came in?

I don't recall who initially testified but I do remember the maid, Willie Ford and Det. Luper (not sure of the spelling) testified about the video.

[tv]

i have looked at evidence presented in the civil trial and have found no listing.since you have repeated this claim can you post the link to the pictures?
I've never seen the pictures. I'm going by the testimony.

[martin II]

TV,

Yes, do believe Simpson is innocent. My point, which I should have made clearer, is that it is possible to believe that Simpson is guilty and that evidence was planted.

For example, if the gloves found were not a match in model number, that does not mean that Simpson is innocent.

If there was never blood found the socks, that does not mean he is innocent.

If the blood on the back gate was never seen by anyone, does not mean Simpson is innocent.

If Simpson appeared to be the perfect husband, does not mean he is innocent.

if there is no proof that oj jumped the fence it does mean that he did
if there is proof that oj was in the house it does not mean that he was not.
if some believe oj beat nicole one time that does not mean he killed her years later.

if law and order types believe 100% in le and the da does not mean that they
don't lie.

[tv]

if there is no proof that oj jumped the fence it does mean that he did
if there is proof that oj was in the house it does not mean that he was not.
if some believe oj beat nicole one time that does not mean he killed her years later.

if law and order types believe 100% in le and the da does not mean that they
don't lie.

So you accept that he was in the house with no proof but you don't accept he was behind Kato's room with proof?

[GreenIce]

So you accept that he was in the house with no proof but you don't accept he was behind Kato's room with proof?

There is no proof that Simpson lifted one broken gate and opened another door to walk into the alley---behind Kato's wall. Both Clark and MF have him walking into it, not jumping a fence.

Kato testified that the first gate was not lifted out of the way and the other gate door was closed, MF claims that the gate door was open. Either MF is lying, Kato is lying and someone other then OJ Simpson was behind Kato's wall after he left his estate.

Neither gate was dusted for fingerprints and neither gate, to the best of my knowledge was not seached for any traces of blood.

There is no evidence that the noise Kato heard had any thing to do with the murders.

There is evidence that Simpson was inside his home. He did nothing out of his routine. There was a direct blood trail leading from the Bronco to his front door--which, IIFC, is the theory, is Simpson entered his estate by walking right past the limo driver, opening the gate and walking directly to his front door.

There is evidence that Simpson knew the rountine of his driver, Dale. He knew that Dale always came earlier. No way would he have made the front door his only way inside his house if he planned on and then killed them.

There is no reason for Simpson to have even attempted to get rid of the glove or any other evidence behind Kato's wall. There is no reason for Simpson to have snuck on to his property by using the gates, then sneaking back out his property and going along a neighbors fence and jump into a wall.

There was at least one other way for Simpson to have gotten on to his property and into his house with out being seen or heard by anyone one.

[GreenIce]

I don't recall who initially testified but I do remember the maid, Willie Ford and Det. Luper (not sure of the spelling) testified about the video.

TV,

Thanks, I will see what I can find.

[martin II]

correction
that cops don't lie

[martin II]

So you accept that he was in the house with no proof but you don't accept he was behind Kato's room with proof?

nope

Part of parks testimony proves he was in the house. how many times do i have to post it.

[martin II]

There is no proof that Simpson lifted one broken gate and opened another door to walk into the alley---behind Kato's wall. Both Clark and MF have him walking into it, not jumping a fence.

Kato testified that the first gate was not lifted out of the way and the other gate door was closed, MF claims that the gate door was open. Either MF is lying, Kato is lying and someone other then OJ Simpson was behind Kato's wall after he left his estate.

Neither gate was dusted for fingerprints and neither gate, to the best of my knowledge was not seached for any traces of blood.

There is no evidence that the noise Kato heard had any thing to do with the murders.

There is evidence that Simpson was inside his home. He did nothing out of his routine. There was a direct blood trail leading from the Bronco to his front door--which, IIFC, is the theory, is Simpson entered his estate by walking right past the limo driver, opening the gate and walking directly to his front door.

There is evidence that Simpson knew the rountine of his driver, Dale. He knew that Dale always came earlier. No way would he have made the front door his only way inside his house if he planned on and then killed them.

There is no reason for Simpson to have even attempted to get rid of the glove or any other evidence behind Kato's wall. There is no reason for Simpson to have snuck on to his property by using the gates, then sneaking back out his property and going along a neighbors fence and jump into a wall.

There was at least one other way for Simpson to have gotten on to his property and into his house with out being seen or heard by anyone one.

the blood drop behind the bronco and inside the rockingham gate that led to ojs house were deposited there when oj drove the bronco from the driveway to rockingham parked it and returned back to his house.

[weezer]

the blood drop behind the bronco and inside the rockingham gate that led to ojs house were deposited there when oj drove the bronco from the driveway to rockingham parked it and returned back to his house.

interesting -- so where do you think he was bleeding from that was enough to leave drops inside the bronco, the driveway, and the foyer?

something else I've always thought ironic, the NG's tout the absence of blood on the walkway as proof that orenthal wasn't back there bleeding. Yet, orenthal said he was bleeding in the kitchen and no blood found there but the NG's accept that as fact. :shrug:

[weezer]

nope

Part of parks testimony proves he was in the house. how many times do i have to post it.

as many times as you need to keep yourself convinced. :eek:

[martin II]

I've never seen the pictures. I'm going by the testimony.

ok
when you said the video was presented i thought you meany you saw it.so the video was testified to but not shown to the jury. is that right?

[tv]

ok
when you said the video was presented i thought you meany you saw it.so the video was testified to but not shown to the jury. is that right?

By pictures I mean the picture of him wearing the sweat suit with white zipper that was shown in the magazine layout in the civil trial. By video I mean the video that was taken of the house after the investigators were finished which was evidence in the criminal trial. Two different trials, two different pieces of evidence.

[martin II]

Park testified that the AA walked from the edge of the driveway to the front door and entered the house.He said the person was walking at a normal stride when he went in the door.

If oj was sneaking into his house he would have had to stop at the door to unlock it.Park never saw him do this so the front door had to have been open from when oj hasd just came out of that door a moment earlier.

When park first saw oj , he was returning to the house after having come out of the house to the porch where he dropped the two duffle bags and moved the golf bag to the benches at the porch.

When park was let in he drove up even to the front door porch, got out and saw the two duffle bags that oj had deposited there when he first came out to the porch.

In his house oj had taken a short nap, went to the toilet and to the shower. He then put on a black bath robe. He may have heard park buzz at that time but was on his way down stairs with the duffle bags and knew park would see him.when he returned into the house he turned on the porch lights which park saw and kato saw on his return from his first search.

[weezer]

There is no proof that Simpson lifted one broken gate and opened another door to walk into the alley---behind Kato's wall. Both Clark and MF have him walking into it, not jumping a fence. :shrug:

Kato testified that the first gate was not lifted out of the way and the other gate door was closed, MF claims that the gate door was open. Either MF is lying, Kato is lying and someone other then OJ Simpson was behind Kato's wall after he left his estate. Let me see if I understand you: Kato and/or Fuhrman can only be believed about stuff that fits your improbable scenario?

Neither gate was dusted for fingerprints and neither gate, to the best of my knowledge was not seached for any traces of blood. :shrug:

There is no evidence that the noise Kato heard had any thing to do with the murders. riiiiight

There is evidence that Simpson was inside his home. He did nothing out of his routine. you mean besides going to kato's room multiple times and borrowing money. There was a direct blood trail leading from the Bronco to his front door--which, IIFC, is the theory, is Simpson entered his estate by walking right past the limo driver, opening the gate and walking directly to his front door. the blood trail was NOT right beside the limo driver.

There is evidence that Simpson knew the rountine of his driver, Dale. He knew that Dale always came earlier. No way would he have made the front door his only way inside his house if he planned on and then killed them. orenthal didn't know the driver wasn't going to be Dale. anyone ever wonder how different the story would have been if it had?

There is no reason for Simpson to have even attempted to get rid of the glove or any other evidence behind Kato's wall. psst -- he was attempting to get rid of, he DROPPED it There is no reason for Simpson to have snuck on to his property by using the gates, then sneaking back out his property and going along a neighbors fence and jump into a wall. I'm not even sure what this means. are you imagining orenthal entered his property twice?

There was at least one other way for Simpson to have gotten on to his property and into his house with out being seen or heard by anyone one.

yep -- but he'd used that one in the past and knew it meant he had to walk around the block. that wasn't going to work! :eek:

[martin II]

By pictures I mean the picture of him wearing the sweat suit with white zipper that was shown in the magazine layout in the civil trial. By video I mean the video that was taken of the house after the investigators were finished which was evidence in the criminal trial. Two different trials, two different pieces of evidence.

i think you are saying a video of the sweats or a picture of the sweats was shown to the jury in the criminal trial.

[tv]

Park testified that the AA walked from the edge of the driveway to the front door and entered the house.He said the person was walking at a normal stride when he went in the door.

If oj was sneaking into his house he would have had to stop at the door to unlock it.Park never saw him do this so the front door had to have been open from when oj hasd just came out of that door a moment earlier.

When park first saw oj , he was returning to the house after having come out of the house to the porch where he dropped the two duffle bags and moved the golf bag to the benches at the porch.

When park was let in he drove up even to the front door porch, got out and saw the two duffle bags that oj had deposited there when he first came out to the porch.

In his house oj had taken a short nap, went to the toilet and to the shower. He then put on a black bath robe. He may have heard park buzz at that time but was on his way down stairs with the duffle bags and knew park would see him.when he returned into the house he turned on the porch lights which park saw and kato saw on his return from his first search.

You always make me laugh when you say he went to the toilet, took a shower and put on a black bath robe. You have no way of knowing this. I'll agree he probably took a shower to wash off the blood and the sweat but unless you were a fly on the wall you don't know what he was doing. He could have left the door open when he went to Bundy -- you have no way of knowing.

[martin II]

You always make me laugh when you say he went to the toilet, took a shower and put on a black bath robe. You have no way of knowing this. I'll agree he probably took a shower to wash off the blood and the sweat but unless you were a fly on the wall you don't know what he was doing. He could have left the door open when he went to Bundy -- you have no way of knowing.

i posted oj testimony on what he was doing. i am sure you don't believe that

ps you don't know that he didn't do that.But i agree that you may think you know.Arnell gave details of oj normal practices when he was going on a trip. it sounded logical to me and maby to the jury also.

Your idea that he COULD have left his door open is not proof that he did.

ps
oj could also have entered his house by the door leading from the walkway to the laundry room. but he was not in the walkway and didn't have to make that decision.

[martin II]

You always make me laugh when you say he went to the toilet, took a shower and put on a black bath robe. You have no way of knowing this. I'll agree he probably took a shower to wash off the blood and the sweat but unless you were a fly on the wall you don't know what he was doing. He could have left the door open when he went to Bundy -- you have no way of knowing.

When park was asked if the AA could have had on a black bath robe he responded "COULD HAVE."

[tv]

When park was asked if the AA could have had on a black bath robe he responded "COULD HAVE."
He was also asked if he saw the hem of a robe swirling around and he said NO.

[tv]

TV,

The location of the maid quarters is essential to the detectives' credibility and their actions at Rockingham. They claim they went over the fence because of the maid, however, their actions did not match their testimony.

The detectives claim that Arnelle made a comment and gesture that to them proved she did not know where here father was and therefore Vanatter used this in his search warrant--knowing full well that Simpson was out of town.

Arnelle said that she knew her father was out of town, she just didn't know which "town" he was in. There is no evidence that Arnelle that lied about anything and their is no evidence that Arnelle enterd the main house and did laundry. However, we do know for a fact that VA and MF lied.

Also, in MF's book, he says that one of the detectives, he thinks it was Phillips asked Kato if OJ was in the house. Kato did ask the question if Simpson's plane went down.

Kato was never asked where the maid was, was she inside the house, was she supposed to be inside the house.

The detectives never asked Arnelle where the maid was, was she supposed to be inside the house? VA claims he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was and Arnelle said he did not.

Had he asked Arnelle where the maid's room was, she would have told him she occupied the the guest room between her's and Kato's.

Simpson may have had a "maid's" room inside the main house put that does not mean that it was used for this purpose--that the maid had to live inside the main house.

According to OJ Simpson's civil trial testimony Arnelle occupied two of the bungalow rooms and Kato occupied the third. The maid testified in the criminal trial that her room was next to the laundry room in the house.

[martin II]

You always make me laugh when you say he went to the toilet, took a shower and put on a black bath robe. You have no way of knowing this. I'll agree he probably took a shower to wash off the blood and the sweat but unless you were a fly on the wall you don't know what he was doing. He could have left the door open when he went to Bundy -- you have no way of knowing.

if oj was covered ion blood as some say he was there would have loads on blood in the shower and the shower pipes and the da would have presented them in court.

[tv]

if oj was covered ion blood as some say he was there would have loads on blood in the shower and the shower pipes and the da would have presented them in court.

He attacked attacked Ron from the back and slashed Nicole's throat from behind. With Ron in front of him, Ron got most of the blood. What blood Simposn had on him was washed down the drain. That's not hard to figure out.

[martin II]

According to OJ Simpson's civil trial testimony Arnelle occupied two of the bungalow rooms and Kato occupied the third. The maid testified in the criminal trial that her room was next to the laundry room in the house.

I think this maid lived next to the laundry room connected to the house. i think michael lived next to arnells room. why didn't le go to the maids room to see if she was ok.

[martin II]

He attacked attacked Ron from the back and slashed Nicole's throat from behind. With Ron in front of him, Ron got most of the blood. What blood Simposn had on him was washed down the drain. That's not hard to figure out.

I went through this with you before.
if oj had ron in that head lock and cut his left jugular vein bhlood would have all over oj left arm chest and possible his left trousers.he could not have been that close and not be covered in blood.Also i think at some point they were face to face. if he was standing next to or straddeled nicole when he cut her neck that blood would have been all over his legs.imoit is obvious by the blood at the walkway that blood was flying all over the place.

[tv]

I think this maid lived next to the laundry room connected to the house. i think michael lived next to arnells room. why didn't le go to the maids room to see if she was ok.Her room was in the house I guess they could see she wasn't there. Who is Michael?

[tv]

I went through this with you before.
if oj had ron in that head lock and cut his left jugular vein bhlood would have all over oj left arm chest and possible his left trousers.he could not have been that close and not be covered in blood.Also i think at some point they were face to face. if he was standing next to or straddeled nicole when he cut her neck that blood would have been all over his legs.imoit is obvious by the blood at the walkway that blood was flying all over the place.

The blood on the walkway is from Nicole bleeding to death after her throat was slashed. You can come up with 'I think' all you want to make him look innocent but it doesn't make it so.

[martin II]

The blood on the walkway is from Nicole bleeding to death after her throat was slashed. You can come up with 'I think' all you want to make him look innocent but it doesn't make it so.

my post was based on the autopsy report, pictures of the Bundy walkway and a investigate report. Your opinions may differ from this information but i choose use the above info to guide me in my opinions.

[martin II]

The blood on the walkway is from Nicole bleeding to death after her throat was slashed. You can come up with 'I think' all you want to make him look innocent but it doesn't make it so.

If you believe that all the blood on the walkway was from nicoles body only ok. i don't. if you think that rons jugular was cut and no blood got on the killer, thats ok too. but it is not correct.

[martin II]

He attacked attacked Ron from the back and slashed Nicole's throat from behind. With Ron in front of him, Ron got most of the blood. What blood Simposn had on him was washed down the drain. That's not hard to figure out.

le took the shower drain pipes out and found no blood. so that kills your idea.

[martin II]

He was also asked if he saw the hem of a robe swirling around and he said NO.

not seeing the hem swirling around does not mean that as he said COULD HAVE HAD ON A ROBE.

[martin II]

According to OJ Simpson's civil trial testimony Arnelle occupied two of the bungalow rooms and Kato occupied the third. The maid testified in the criminal trial that her room was next to the laundry room in the house.

Are you suggesting that you now believe something oj said? Good for you.

[martin II]

Her room was in the house I guess they could see she wasn't there. Who is Michael?

sorry
michelle

[martin II]

According to OJ Simpson's civil trial testimony Arnelle occupied two of the bungalow rooms and Kato occupied the third. The maid testified in the criminal trial that her room was next to the laundry room in the house.

When vanhatter and his crew arrived and had Arnell and Kato in the kitchen he found out them that oj had left on a pre scheduled trip. so why did he later in the day stand before a judge and say otherwise to get the search warrant.Another case of how le lies to judges to get their way.
Usually when a lie is told to get a search warrant, the evidence collected in that search is tossed out.

[windh]

Usually when a lie is told to get a search warrant, the evidence collected in that search is tossed out.

And in this case they found tons of evidence. Lie or No Lie. Lucky them.

[martin II]

And in this case they found tons of evidence. Lie or No Lie. Lucky them.

hi

my post was addressing what the law requires when a false statement is made to a judge by le to get a search warrant. Not what may please one even though the law was broken.:cool:

[weezer]

if oj was covered ion blood as some say he was there would have loads on blood in the shower and the shower pipes and the da would have presented them in court.

there was blood found in the drain -- just not enough to test. besides, no one has said orenthal was 'covered' in blood.

[weezer]

I think this maid lived next to the laundry room connected to the house. i think michael lived next to arnells room. why didn't le go to the maids room to see if she was ok.

you 'think'? LOL the maid's room was in the house, off of the kitchen. LE did go to check on the maid -- arnelle led the way.

[weezer]

I went through this with you before.
if oj had ron in that head lock and cut his left jugular vein bhlood would have all over oj left arm chest and possible his left trousers.he could not have been that close and not be covered in blood. really? he di. Also i think at some point they were face to face. and you 'think' this because you imagine it? if he was standing next to or straddeled nicole when he cut her neck that blood would have been all over his legs. are you forgetting his footprint on her back? he was neither standing next to or straddled -- the butcher was behindimoit is obvious by the blood at the walkway that blood was flying all over the place.

obviously blood wasn't flying all over the place or blood would be all over the place. ;)

[martin II]

Gi

a issues that has been overlooked here by some is:

If oj came home from Bundy, Parked on Rockingham and walked to the walkway area where it is believed he dropped the glove,how did he open the rockingham gate from outside the property? The control box needed to open that gate was located on the inside of the property on that brick piling.Not accessable from the street side of the gate.:cool:

[weezer]

If you believe that all the blood on the walkway was from nicoles body only ok. i don't. if you think that rons jugular was cut and no blood got on the killer, thats ok too. but it is not correct.

Ron did not bleed out like Nicole.

[martin II]

There is a room labeled maids room that is on the south end of the house. The laundry room with a entrance from the walkway is to the south west and the trophy room is to the east.

[martin II]

Ron had very little internal bleeding. a look at his bloody jeans front and back, his shirt and the blood in the walkway leading from the gate to the street supports this.
-------------------------------------


"Goldman suffered two kinds of wounds, "slicing" (with the sharp knife edge) and "stabbing" (with the knife point). Of the former, there were some three dozen, and these were "defensive wounds" to Goldman's hands and arms, and the rest were concentrated on the left side of the victim's head and neck. This area was considerably damaged ("left ear cut nearly off") and he bled greatly from these (the left jugular vein was transected). All of the forensic experts agreed that if Goldman did not die from the blood loss on the left side of his neck and head, he would have soon."

[weezer]

There is a room labeled maids room that is on the south end of the house. The laundry room with a entrance from the walkway is to the south west and the trophy room is to the east.

the maid's room was off of the kitchen. :shrug:

[GreenIce]

According to OJ Simpson's civil trial testimony Arnelle occupied two of the bungalow rooms and Kato occupied the third. The maid testified in the criminal trial that her room was next to the laundry room in the house.

TV,

Your are correct. Jeff Toobin's book has it wrong. Pehaps the middle room was still designated as the "maid's" because Michelle occupied it. I didn't realize that GiGi had only worked for Simpson for a couple of months before for the murders. I wonder if the DA's ever talked to Michelle, OJ's former maid. I still haven't found the testimony about what was inside the washer only that they were Arnelle's or it was Arnelle's clothes basket and something about panties.

However, even knowing the maid's room is inside the main house, still does not support the LAPD's excuse for going over the wall or even going to guest houses. Their actions once on the estate do not support of their actions, IMO.

[GreenIce]

Gi

a issues that has been overlooked here by some is:

If oj came home from Bundy, Parked on Rockingham and walked to the walkway area where it is believed he dropped the glove,how did he open the rockingham gate from outside the property? The control box needed to open that gate was located on the inside of the property on that brick piling.Not accessable from the street side of the gate.:cool:

Martin,

MF's book does talk about this---he claims the gate was unlocked and you just had to push it open. I am not sure what gate he was used.

I am also confused, Kato's car was parked on Ashford, correct? So shouldn't there have only been the Bentley on the estate?

[GreenIce]

And in this case they found tons of evidence. Lie or No Lie. Lucky them.

Windh,

I have to agree with you how luckey they were to find "tons" of evidence weeks and months after 2 search warrants, busted fridge and a/c unit in the SID truck.

That "exit" shot Rokhar took, was a stroke of pure genius, which enabled the DA's to blow up this picture and finally get a picture of those camera shy blood drops.

What also is amazing, is that all the blood that bled by the killer, all of it landed on fence, and yet, none of it was collected or pictures taken of it until 3 weeks later.

The DA's evidence in this case is "manna" from heaven. IMO. :)

[GreenIce]

When vanhatter and his crew arrived and had Arnell and Kato in the kitchen he found out them that oj had left on a pre scheduled trip. so why did he later in the day stand before a judge and say otherwise to get the search warrant.Another case of how le lies to judges to get their way.
Usually when a lie is told to get a search warrant, the evidence collected in that search is tossed out.

Martin,

Here is something new I learned from Toobin's book. He says that at approx 2:30 a.m., Phillips gets a phone call from Commander Bushey, telling Phillips and MF to FIND OJ Simpson and to make a personal notification.

So now we know that very early on they were told to go find Simpson and tell him. This supports Bosco's book about MF and Phillips calling the station to find out from the kids where their father was.

IMO, I think Vanatter knew he was going to take major hits on his search warrant and went for the most obvious lies. Come on, Arnelle tells them he is out of town but she knows who to reach the person who does know which town he is in and how to reach him? Calling Cathy Randa right then and their proved that the trip was expected.

However, I have always thought that 3 of the detectives went to Arnelle's room and talked to her. But in her testimony, she says that Vanatter was not with them, that he was always away from them. Perhaps Vanatter was doing this so he could claim he did not hear what Arnelle was saying? That he could claim selective hearing at Rockingham like he and Lange did at Bundy?

[GreenIce]

He was also asked if he saw the hem of a robe swirling around and he said NO.

TV,

Doesn't it help your side if Simpson is wearing a black bath robe? It is obvious that Park did not have his eyes glued to the front door, so in all fairness to him, he doesn't know if he saw Simpson walking back into the house from bringing his luggage out.

I would think the DA's would have jumped all over his wearing a bathrobe and bringing out his luggage. Wearing a garment that clearly was to give the impression he was inside the house and just got out of the shower.

Again, just a thought for your side!

[weezer]

TV,

Your are correct. Jeff Toobin's book has it wrong. Pehaps the middle room was still designated as the "maid's" because Michelle occupied it. I didn't realize that GiGi had only worked for Simpson for a couple of months before for the murders. I wonder if the DA's ever talked to Michelle, OJ's former maid. I still haven't found the testimony about what was inside the washer only that they were Arnelle's or it was Arnelle's clothes basket and something about panties.

However, even knowing the maid's room is inside the main house, still does not support the LAPD's excuse for going over the wall or even going to guest houses. Their actions once on the estate do not support of their actions, IMO.

LE was told by the security people that the maid was there. The bronco looked as though it had been parked in a hurry. there was no answer from the house.

are you still not wondering how/why arnelle's lingerie got into the house and into the washer when both she and the maid said they didn't do it?

[weezer]

Windh,

I have to agree with you how luckey they were to find "tons" of evidence weeks and months after 2 search warrants, busted fridge and a/c unit in the SID truck.

That "exit" shot Rokhar took, was a stroke of pure genius, which enabled the DA's to blow up this picture and finally get a picture of those camera shy blood drops.

What also is amazing, is that all the blood that bled by the killer, all of it landed on fence, and yet, none of it was collected or pictures taken of it until 3 weeks later.

The DA's evidence in this case is "manna" from heaven. IMO. :)

LOL -- when you can't excuse/fantasize away the evidence, go for the conspiracy theory -- the NG's mantra. :rolleyes:

[weezer]

Martin,

Here is something new I learned from Toobin's book. He says that at approx 2:30 a.m., Phillips gets a phone call from Commander Bushey, telling Phillips and MF to FIND OJ Simpson and to make a personal notification.

So now we know that very early on they were told to go find Simpson and tell him. This supports Bosco's book about MF and Phillips calling the station to find out from the kids where their father was. another fantasy theory with nothing to support it except imagination.

IMO, I think Vanatter knew he was going to take major hits on his search warrant and went for the most obvious lies. Come on, Arnelle tells them he is out of town :no: arnelle didn't know where orenthal was but she knows who to reach the person who does know which town he is in and how to reach him? Calling Cathy Randa right then and their proved that the trip was expected. arnelle told them that randa would know

However, I have always thought that 3 of the detectives went to Arnelle's room and talked to her. But in her testimony, she says that Vanatter was not with them, that he was always away from them. Perhaps Vanatter was doing this so he could claim he did not hear what Arnelle was saying? That he could claim selective hearing at Rockingham like he and Lange did at Bundy?

ahh yes -- the great blue wall of silence. LOL

[weezer]

TV,

Doesn't it help your side if Simpson is wearing a black bath robe? It is obvious that Park did not have his eyes glued to the front door, so in all fairness to him, he doesn't know if he saw Simpson walking back into the house from bringing his luggage out. Parks testimony is and has always been that he saw the 200 poung AA, dressed in black, walking up the drive.

I would think the DA's would have jumped all over his wearing a bathrobe and bringing out his luggage. Wearing a garment that clearly was to give the impression he was inside the house and just got out of the shower.

Again, just a thought for your side!

Wow -- in about an hour, orenthal practiced his golf swing in his front yard, packed his bags, took a nap, and showered.

[martin II]

Martin,

MF's book does talk about this---he claims the gate was unlocked and you just had to push it open. I am not sure what gate he was used.

I am also confused, Kato's car was parked on Ashford, correct? So shouldn't there have only been the Bentley on the estate?

furhman is wrong.
When the rockingham gate was opened from the control box inside the property, it automatically closes after a short time. it is then locked and can only be opened again from the inside control box which kato used to let the limo out.

katos cas was parked just east of the ashford gate and the bently was parked on the inside driveway nook.

[martin II]

Martin,

Here is something new I learned from Toobin's book. He says that at approx 2:30 a.m., Phillips gets a phone call from Commander Bushey, telling Phillips and MF to FIND OJ Simpson and to make a personal notification.

So now we know that very early on they were told to go find Simpson and tell him. This supports Bosco's book about MF and Phillips calling the station to find out from the kids where their father was.

IMO, I think Vanatter knew he was going to take major hits on his search warrant and went for the most obvious lies. Come on, Arnelle tells them he is out of town but she knows who to reach the person who does know which town he is in and how to reach him? Calling Cathy Randa right then and their proved that the trip was expected.

However, I have always thought that 3 of the detectives went to Arnelle's room and talked to her. But in her testimony, she says that Vanatter was not with them, that he was always away from them. Perhaps Vanatter was doing this so he could claim he did not hear what Arnelle was saying? That he could claim selective hearing at Rockingham like he and Lange did at Bundy?

Toobin must be wrong as the call from the commander relieved mf from the case.

[martin II]

park never testified that he saw oj walk UP THE DRIVE. he saw oj in the middle of the driveway in front of the front door and walk into the house.
but he was looking at the front door through the ashford metal bars in the pitch dark. So his vision was not that good.
i aslo read that clarke assisted vanhatter in writing the search warrant request.,

[weezer]

park never testified that he saw oj walk UP THE DRIVE. he saw oj in the middle of the driveway in front of the front door and walk into the house.
but he was looking at the front door through the ashford metal bars in the pitch dark. So his vision was not that good.
i aslo read that clarke assisted vanhatter in writing the search warrant request.,

sure he did. LOL is was too dark for park to see but light enough for orenthal to chip golf balls? LOL

[martin II]

TV,

Doesn't it help your side if Simpson is wearing a black bath robe? It is obvious that Park did not have his eyes glued to the front door, so in all fairness to him, he doesn't know if he saw Simpson walking back into the house from bringing his luggage out.

I would think the DA's would have jumped all over his wearing a bathrobe and bringing out his luggage. Wearing a garment that clearly was to give the impression he was inside the house and just got out of the shower.

Again, just a thought for your side!

gi

i don't think the DA was expecting that question to park and surely did not expect him to give that COULD BE response.

There was nothing they could do about oj bringing the two duffle bags from the house because Park saw them immediately when he pulled in to the door.

If i was a jury member that would have proved to me that oj was in the house when park arrived and could not have been at bundy unless they believed clarks claim that the murders happened at 10:20.but Heidstra proved that wrong.

The other issue is there is no proof that park rung that buzzer as many times as he claimed.He could have been prompted by clarke to add a few buzzer attempts to give the impression that oj was not home.

[weezer]

SNIPPED* * *The other issue is there is no proof that park rung that buzzer as many times as he claimed.He could have been prompted by clarke to add a few buzzer attempts to give the impression that oj was not home.


oh my! heck, he could have been asked if the 200 pound AA walking up the drive could have been pigeon-toed and he would have to have said 'yes'.

the great conspiracy continues. . . . :eek:

[rovaan]

furhman is wrong.
When the rockingham gate was opened from the control box inside the property, it automatically closes after a short time. it is then locked and can only be opened again from the inside control box which kato used to let the limo out.

katos cas was parked just east of the ashford gate and the bently was parked on the inside driveway nook.

The Rockingham gate, if locked, could be opened from the outside with a key. Fuhrman reported in his book that he and Brad Roberts went through the Rockingham gate at one point on the morning of June 13th and that it was closed but not locked. He stated to his knowledge that they were the first LAPD to go through the gate. (Pg.35 of Murder in Brentwood)

[weezer]

The Rockingham gate, if locked, could be opened from the outside with a key. Fuhrman reported in his book that he and Brad Roberts went through the Rockingham gate at one point on the morning of June 13th and that it was closed but not locked. He stated to his knowledge that they were the first LAPD to go through the gate. (Pg.35 of Murder in Brentwood)

wasn't there something - maybe kato's testimony -- about the gate could be manipulated to open without a key?

[rovaan]

wasn't there something - maybe kato's testimony -- about the gate could be manipulated to open without a key?

You might be thinking about the Ashford gate.

[weezer]

this is from wagner's site:

THE ROCKINGHAM VEHICLE GATE: Simpson's estate is on a corner, and his driveway goes from Ashford St. to Rockingham Ave.; there are hydraulically actuated and remotely controlled vehicle gates at both entrances. On the video tape, Simpson lectures about blood drops found near the Rockingham gate, goes outside and talks about the Bronco that was found parked there on the morning after the murders, then comes back in and stands near his Bentley and talks about what he was doing while waiting for the limo that Sunday night. In the course of this he demonstrates a pedestrian mode of operation for the Rockingham gate, though that does not seem to be his purpose, and he does not comment about it.

The sequence of interest begins in Figure 19 [RGATE.JPG] when the cameraman is in the street of Rockingham looking through the closed gate and into Simpson's driveway. To all appearances, the gate is completely and securely closed. (Simpson said in his civil trial deposition that before the firestorm of crowds descended on his house after the crimes, he seldom locked his gates.) In Figure 19 we see Simpson approaching his gate from the inside. In Figure 20 [RGATE1.JPG] he is opening it, and he does so without using a key, and apparently without unfastening a latch. It appears that the gate is designed so that gravity or a spring holds it slightly closed when it is not being deliberately operated, and only a small force is required to push it open.

Simpson is talking constantly during his traverses through the gate, and so it is possible to evaluate the sound made by the gate. In no case does it interfere with Simpson's talking, and generally it is not even noticeable, unless one deliberately listens for it. When Simpson opens the gate upon going out there might have been a slight whisper, as though the gate was brushing against some of the foliage by the edge of the gate.

After lecturing from the street, Simpson returns to the gate, which now appears to be securely closed, and opens it -- again without a key -- in Figure 21 [RGATE4.JPG]. This time there appears to be a slight click or rattle, but one could not hear that sound from the garage, I am sure, and it certainly could not be heard from the front porch where Park and Kato were during the time the limo was being loaded.

Simpson's statement that he seldom locked his gates before the crime needs some qualification. The gates were apparently locked on Rockingham on the morning after the crime, and the fact caused the police to send Fuhrman over the wall to open the gate from the inside and admit the others. It is possible that Simpson meant that in his pre-crime routine he usually left the gates open during the daytime, but locked them at night. Or, maybe he left the gates locked when he was out of town (as he also had the special precaution of having Gigi stay at the house overnight when he was away). However, once the gate was unlocked (or perhaps simply opened from the inside) it could be freely entered until locked again. We know this because Fuhrman tells us in his book that cops were easily going through that gate all of Monday morning.

[martin II]

The Rockingham gate, if locked, could be opened from the outside with a key. Fuhrman reported in his book that he and Brad Roberts went through the Rockingham gate at one point on the morning of June 13th and that it was closed but not locked. He stated to his knowledge that they were the first LAPD to go through the gate. (Pg.35 of Murder in Brentwood)

i never read mf book. If this is true then why would Kato have to use the control box button to open it for the limo. why have a gate that does not automayically lock when closed.Anyone could just push it open to get in. If furhman could do this on 6/13 it was a waste of energy to jump the wall.

[bobaugust]

The Rockingham gate, if locked, could be opened from the outside with a key. Fuhrman reported in his book that he and Brad Roberts went through the Rockingham gate at one point on the morning of June 13th and that it was closed but not locked. He stated to his knowledge that they were the first LAPD to go through the gate. (Pg.35 of Murder in Brentwood)

Hi Rose, you are correct Fuhrman did write that happened after he had returned from Bundy where Rokahr had just photographed him pointing at the Bundy glove. What Fuhrman evidently never knew was when he was at Bundy Vannatter (page 32 of his book) had first seen the blood drops on driveway, followed them out to the Bronco, and saw blood inside the Bronco on the passenger side of the center console. Vannatter wrote he then retraced the drops back to the front door of Simpson’s house. Although Vannatter never said how he opened the Rockingham gate it’s very possible he set the gate to the pedestrian mode so that it could be opened without activating it or by using a key.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

i never read mf book. If this is true then why would Kato have to use the control box button to open it for the limo. why have a gate that does not automayically lock when closed.Anyone could just push it open to get in. If furhman could do this on 6/13 it was a waste of energy to jump the wall.

The fact that Kaelin activated the Rockingham gate to let the limousine out of the estate when it left for the airport means that gate was locked when the police arrived about seven hours.

bobaugust

[martin II]

The fact that Kaelin activated the Rockingham gate to let the limousine out of the estate when it left for the airport means that gate was locked when the police arrived about seven hours.

bobaugust

I Assume the pedestrian mode would have to be set from the inside control box by someone inside.

[tv]

TV,

Your are correct. Jeff Toobin's book has it wrong. Pehaps the middle room was still designated as the "maid's" because Michelle occupied it. I didn't realize that GiGi had only worked for Simpson for a couple of months before for the murders. I wonder if the DA's ever talked to Michelle, OJ's former maid. I still haven't found the testimony about what was inside the washer only that they were Arnelle's or it was Arnelle's clothes basket and something about panties.

However, even knowing the maid's room is inside the main house, still does not support the LAPD's excuse for going over the wall or even going to guest houses. Their actions once on the estate do not support of their actions, IMO.

First, you said that the location of the maid's room goes to the detective's credibility. Now that you know you were wrong about the location of the maid's room you still don't give them any credibilty. You're attempting to shape the evidence to support your theories.

[tv]

Wow -- in about an hour, orenthal practiced his golf swing in his front yard, packed his bags, took a nap, and showered.
Don't forget -- martin says he also used the toilet. :rolleyes:

[martin II]

LE can get a search warrant from a judge by phone so i don't understand why vanhatter didn't do that rather than illegally enter ojs property.

where the maid lived had nothing to do with le doing what they did.

[martin II]

Don't forget -- martin says he also used the toilet. :rolleyes:

Wromg, oj said that. i told you this before.

[tv]

LE can get a search warrant from a judge by phone so i don't understand why vanhatter didn't do that rather than illegally enter ojs property.

where the maid lived had nothing to do with le doing what they did.

They entered the estate because they couldn't get an answer, lights were on, the Bronco was parked at an odd angle and they had found a potential blood spot on the car. Westec told them if Simpson was going to be gone he would have notified them and that there was a live-in maid. A double-murder involving Simpson's ex-wife had been committed just a few miles away. It was a potential emergency and they didn't need a search warrant to enter the property. You are wrong when you say they entered illegally but you know this.

[tv]

Wromg, oj said that. i told you this before.

When did he say it? I don't recall it when he was being interviewed by Lange and Vannatter. Was it during the civil trial?

[GreenIce]

furhman is wrong.
When the rockingham gate was opened from the control box inside the property, it automatically closes after a short time. it is then locked and can only be opened again from the inside control box which kato used to let the limo out.

katos cas was parked just east of the ashford gate and the bently was parked on the inside driveway nook.

Martin,

Just to make sure, there was only the Bentley parked inside the gates?

[GreenIce]

Toobin must be wrong as the call from the commander relieved mf from the case.

Martin,

According to Toobin's book, they received this order before the case was turned over to RHD. However, even if the case was going to be turned over, how would this affect his order to find OJ and make a personnel notification?

[GreenIce]

First, you said that the location of the maid's room goes to the detective's credibility. Now that you know you were wrong about the location of the maid's room you still don't give them any credibilty. You're attempting to shape the evidence to support your theories.

TV,

The reason why the detectives have no credibility when it comes to the maid because none of them asked either Kato or Arnelle about the maid. One of the detectives asked Kato straight out if Simpson was in the house. Again, where are the questions about the maid.

If Westec knew there was a live in maid, how did the they know that the maid lived in the main house and in a the guest room where Arnelle and Kato lived?

Vanatter says he asked to see the maid's room---there is no law that says that if the maid was injured or dead, that she had to be found inside her room.

The rest of the house was not searched until MF and Roberts did one to make sure everyone was out of the house. That was how many hours after they first arrived at Rockingham?

If the detectives rang the buzzer over and over again and got not response, called inside the home and got no answer as well as knock on the front door, how worried were they about someone being inside, injured or dead.

Also, by that time, Arnelle's car was parked on the estate, why didn't MF call her plates in? He only called Kato's plates in? Did Westic tell them about the three guest houses on the back?

[GreenIce]

Martin,

Have you ever studied the picture of MF pointing at the glove on Bundy? Doesn't it look like there is a glove tag?

[GreenIce]

They entered the estate because they couldn't get an answer, lights were on, the Bronco was parked at an odd angle and they had found a potential blood spot on the car. Westec told them if Simpson was going to be gone he would have notified them and that there was a live-in maid. A double-murder involving Simpson's ex-wife had been committed just a few miles away. It was a potential emergency and they didn't need a search warrant to enter the property. You are wrong when you say they entered illegally but you know this.

TV,

First, Simpson was an obvious prime suspect and the detectives going over to Rockingham ASAP was within the law. They had every reason to suspect him, they had every reason to believe he would have gone back to his house, and they had every reason to believe that he was either getting rid of evidence or was planning to flee.

Second, I understand completely the LAPD wanting to make not only a personal death notification because of the media attention this case was going to generate and make to make arrangements for his small children. However, what makes no sense is that they waited over 4 hours to ask Sydney if she knew another family members telephone number and she gave at 5:30 a.m., however, by that time or close to that time, Arnelle was already woken up by the detectives.

Third, the detectives own testimony was that Simpson was never a suspect if this was true, again, why the delay to go to Rockingham? Why not ask Sydney if she knew where her father was?

The Bronco was parked illegally. It did not pose a danager---so what if Simpson sucks at parking? One tiny drop of blood does not mean that there is a blood bath in the main house.

[GreenIce]

He attacked attacked Ron from the back and slashed Nicole's throat from behind. With Ron in front of him, Ron got most of the blood. What blood Simposn had on him was washed down the drain. That's not hard to figure out.

TV,

Here the problem with the killing from behind and the speed of the murders. If both Ron and Nicole were killed from behind in less then 90 seconds, then there is no way the killer could have walked in blood, in fact, it would take several minutes for enough of the blood to pool.

Also, both Ron and Nicole had defensive wounds and Ron's obviously used his feet to kick out because of the knife marks on his boots. Also, Ron's hands were free at least enought to do serious damage to his hands. If Ron was being held from behind and being stabbed by the person holding him from behind, he would not have been able to hurt his hands.

[GreenIce]

Martin,

I can't blame you for not wanting to read MF's book. But, IMO, this book has a wealth of information. However, it is clear that he is a racist and his comments are chilling, IMO, not only for content but how easily he slips it in.

He has a chapter about the second search warrant and it has some very interesting information and if I am reading it correctly, the person who wrote it no longer remembers what was in the washing machine.

He also nails Lange and VA every chance he gets. Like when first asked about the bloody fingerprint, Lange and VA say it is rust. Again, with the rust? And how can a fingerprint be in rust?

Another interesting tibit, he says that Lange's covering of Nicole's body with a blanket was a huge mistake because it was obvious that Simpson spent the several times at Bundy. Well, how would Fuhrman know this? While I think that Lange a huge mistake on this, I feel confident that he didn't even think if OJ Simpson ever spent several nights at Bundy.

Kind of like in the prelim hearing or grand jury, MF saying that the Simpson's had joint custody, again, how did he know that?

He also claims that at least 6 LAPD detectives saw the sweats in the washing machine. He claims while the detectives were looking at the sweats, he says that Fung checked for a blood transfer inside the washing machine, which was rust. However, he never says that anyone took them out of the washing machine to look at them. He said that for VA to later write on the second warrant that he couldn't remember, was just another coverup for his mistakes. The video is proof of this. Yet again, he never says how they were able to tell they were sweats.

[tv]

TV,

Here the problem with the killing from behind and the speed of the murders. If both Ron and Nicole were killed from behind in less then 90 seconds, then there is no way the killer could have walked in blood, in fact, it would take several minutes for enough of the blood to pool. No, it wouldnt. These two people bled to death very quickly.

Also, both Ron and Nicole had defensive wounds and Ron's obviously used his feet to kick out because of the knife marks on his boots. Also, Ron's hands were free at least enought to do serious damage to his hands. If Ron was being held from behind and being stabbed by the person holding him from behind, he would not have been able to hurt his hands.

It's makes no sense to think that Ron would have just let his arms dangle when someone was trying to kill him. Ron was flailing his arms around to try to defend himself in a small area. Of course he injured his hands.

[tv]

Martin,

I can't blame you for not wanting to read MF's book. But, IMO, this book has a wealth of information. However, it is clear that he is a racist and his comments are chilling, IMO, not only for content but how easily he slips it in.

He has a chapter about the second search warrant and it has some very interesting information and if I am reading it correctly, the person who wrote it no longer remembers what was in the washing machine.

He also nails Lange and VA every chance he gets. Like when first asked about the bloody fingerprint, Lange and VA say it is rust. Again, with the rust? And how can a fingerprint be in rust?

Another interesting tibit, he says that Lange's covering of Nicole's body with a blanket was a huge mistake because it was obvious that Simpson spent the several times at Bundy. Well, how would Fuhrman know this? While I think that Lange a huge mistake on this, I feel confident that he didn't even think if OJ Simpson ever spent several nights at Bundy.

Kind of like in the prelim hearing or grand jury, MF saying that the Simpson's had joint custody, again, how did he know that?

He also claims that at least 6 LAPD detectives saw the sweats in the washing machine. He claims while the detectives were looking at the sweats, he says that Fung checked for a blood transfer inside the washing machine, which was rust. However, he never says that anyone took them out of the washing machine to look at them. He said that for VA to later write on the second warrant that he couldn't remember, was just another coverup for his mistakes. The video is proof of this. Yet again, he never says how they were able to tell they were sweats.
I've read Mark Fuhrman's book and while you're correct that he criticizes Lange and Vannatter (as they do him in their book) he does not slip into any racist comments or behavior in the book. In fact, at the beginning of the book he apologizes. Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same books or if they are even written in the same language.

[tv]

TV,

First, Simpson was an obvious prime suspect and the detectives going over to Rockingham ASAP was within the law. They had every reason to suspect him, they had every reason to believe he would have gone back to his house, and they had every reason to believe that he was either getting rid of evidence or was planning to flee.

Second, I understand completely the LAPD wanting to make not only a personal death notification because of the media attention this case was going to generate and make to make arrangements for his small children. However, what makes no sense is that they waited over 4 hours to ask Sydney if she knew another family members telephone number and she gave at 5:30 a.m., however, by that time or close to that time, Arnelle was already woken up by the detectives.

Third, the detectives own testimony was that Simpson was never a suspect if this was true, again, why the delay to go to Rockingham? Why not ask Sydney if she knew where her father was?

The Bronco was parked illegally. It did not pose a danager---so what if Simpson sucks at parking? One tiny drop of blood does not mean that there is a blood bath in the main house.

Why would they ask Sydney where her father is? Why wouldn't they think he was at home? Home is usually the first place you look for someone.

The detectives didn't say Simpson was never a suspect. They said he wasn't a suspect until the glove was found on the walkway at Rockingham. The blood drop wasn't tiny; it was slightly smaller than a dime. Under normal circumstances it would be no big deal but Simpson's ex-wife and her friend had just been murdered a few miles away.

[tv]

TV,

The reason why the detectives have no credibility when it comes to the maid because none of them asked either Kato or Arnelle about the maid. One of the detectives asked Kato straight out if Simpson was in the house. Again, where are the questions about the maid.

If Westec knew there was a live in maid, how did the they know that the maid lived in the main house and in a the guest room where Arnelle and Kato lived? I don't know if they did or not but what difference does it make?

Vanatter says he asked to see the maid's room---there is no law that says that if the maid was injured or dead, that she had to be found inside her room. It would be a good place to start.

The rest of the house was not searched until MF and Roberts did one to make sure everyone was out of the house. That was how many hours after they first arrived at Rockingham? That goes to show they weren't initially looking for evidence against Simpson.

If the detectives rang the buzzer over and over again and got not response, called inside the home and got no answer as well as knock on the front door, how worried were they about someone being inside, injured or dead. According to you they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Also, by that time, Arnelle's car was parked on the estate, why didn't MF call her plates in? He only called Kato's plates in? Did Westic tell them about the three guest houses on the back? How do you know he didn't? I don't know if if Westect told them about the guest houses -- what does it matter?

My people are seriously starting to wonder about your people. Are you sure there's enough oxygen up there?

[GreenIce]

I've read Mark Fuhrman's book and while you're correct that he criticizes Lange and Vannatter (as they do him in their book) he does not slip into any racist comments or behavior in the book. In fact, at the beginning of the book he apologizes. Sometimes I wonder if you and I are reading the same books or if they are even written in the same language.

TV,

That is what I mean, I think some of his comments are very racist. Like the one about the jury not caring that a black man beat he white wife. Why couldn't he just say that they did not care that man beat his wife? Why the reference to race?

His comments about the "Black" Law hat that Darden kept in his office.

His comments and anger that Chris Darden was made a member of the DA's team as well as his comments that Darden cost a friend of his retirement benefits because of what this person said to an AA undercover cop?

Very subtle, IMO, but very much there throughout the whole book. Again, just IMO.

And I do not believe for one second he is sorry. I do believe he wanted to make sure that every person that did not stand by him was "sorry" they didn't.

[weezer]

TV,

That is what I mean, I think some of his comments are very racist. Like the one about the jury not caring that a black man beat he white wife. Why couldn't he just say that they did not care that man beat his wife? Why the reference to race? maybe, because like the majority of people, he believes that a racially biased jury let a guilty black man walk free.

His comments about the "Black" Law hat that Darden kept in his office.

His comments and anger that Chris Darden was made a member of the DA's team as well as his comments that Darden cost a friend of his retirement benefits because of what this person said to an AA undercover cop? link please

Very subtle, IMO, but very much there throughout the whole book. Again, just IMO.

And I do not believe for one second he is sorry. I do believe he wanted to make sure that every person that did not stand by him was "sorry" they didn't.

are you sure you're not one of the jurors? you know, the one that 'just knew' Fuhrman was racist when she saw him walking to the witness stand. :eek:

[weezer]

Martin,

I can't blame you for not wanting to read MF's book. But, IMO, this book has a wealth of information. However, it is clear that he is a racist and his comments are chilling, IMO, not only for content but how easily he slips it in. you are correct that the book is a good read but your comment that it makes it clear he's a racist is wrong. unless, of course, that's what you need to be able to read into it. :shrug:

He has a chapter about the second search warrant and it has some very interesting information and if I am reading it correctly, the person who wrote it no longer remembers what was in the washing machine. hello? there was video of what was in the washer.

He also nails Lange and VA every chance he gets. Like when first asked about the bloody fingerprint, Lange and VA say it is rust. Again, with the rust? And how can a fingerprint be in rust? this never happened. :punch:

Another interesting tibit, he says that Lange's covering of Nicole's body with a blanket was a huge mistake because it was obvious that Simpson spent the several times at Bundy. Well, how would Fuhrman know this? While I think that Lange a huge mistake on this, I feel confident that he didn't even think if OJ Simpson ever spent several nights at Bundy. LE agreed -- after the fact and although it was a decent thing to do -- that something from inside the house should not have been introduced to the outside crime scene.

Kind of like in the prelim hearing or grand jury, MF saying that the Simpson's had joint custody, again, how did he know that? didn't happen :punch:

He also claims that at least 6 LAPD detectives saw the sweats in the washing machine. He claims while the detectives were looking at the sweats, he says that Fung checked for a blood transfer inside the washing machine, which was rust. However, he never says that anyone took them out of the washing machine to look at them. He said that for VA to later write on the second warrant that he couldn't remember, was just another coverup for his mistakes. The video is proof of this. Yet again, he never says how they were able to tell they were sweats.

even I could tell they were sweats and I'm not a detective -- geez

[weezer]

TV,

Here the problem with the killing from behind and the speed of the murders. If both Ron and Nicole were killed from behind in less then 90 seconds, then there is no way the killer could have walked in blood, in fact, it would take several minutes for enough of the blood to pool. so how did orenthal's size 12 pigeon-toed BM bloody footprints happen?

Also, both Ron and Nicole had defensive wounds and Ron's obviously used his feet to kick out because of the knife marks on his boots. Also, Ron's hands were free at least enought to do serious damage to his hands. If Ron was being held from behind and being stabbed by the person holding him from behind, he would not have been able to hurt his hands.

the attack on Ron was sudden and vicious and in a very small, confined space. Ron was obviously not expecting orenthal to attack him. I've often thought how surreal that must have been for him -- what a scene to walk up on! at any rate, the consensus is that the damage to Ron's hands was from flailing and hitting the tree and wall where orenthal had him cornered.

[martin II]

Martin,

Just to make sure, there was only the Bentley parked inside the gates?

yes
when Arnell came home her car was parked near the bently. but only one bently inside

[martin II]

Why would they ask Sydney where her father is? Why wouldn't they think he was at home? Home is usually the first place you look for someone.

The detectives didn't say Simpson was never a suspect. They said he wasn't a suspect until the glove was found on the walkway at Rockingham. The blood drop wasn't tiny; it was slightly smaller than a dime. Under normal circumstances it would be no big deal but Simpson's ex-wife and her friend had just been murdered a few miles away.

why did vanhatter lie on the search warrant request?

[martin II]

the attack on Ron was sudden and vicious and in a very small, confined space. Ron was obviously not expecting orenthal to attack him. I've often thought how surreal that must have been for him -- what a scene to walk up on! at any rate, the consensus is that the damage to Ron's hands was from flailing and hitting the tree and wall where orenthal had him cornered.

there was only plants near ron no wall

when rons jugular was cut he became very weak quickle. hand scars may have been fron the concrete tiles.

[weezer]

why did vanhatter lie on the search warrant request?

Vannatter didn't lie on the search warrant.

[weezer]

there was only plants near ron no wall

when rons jugular was cut he became very weak quickle. hand scars may have been fron the concrete tiles.

what's his body laying against?

[windh]

what's his body laying against?

a fence?

[martin II]

a fence?

yes

A metal fence

[bobaugust]

there was only plants near ron no wall



Martin II, that’s not quite correct. The tree in the small garden area was between a metal fence and the cement stairs, the side of which was a low wall.

November 12, 1996 Dr. Spitz

Q. The bruises on the middle knuckle and the knuckles, those are substantial bruises, are they not?
A. I don't know what you call substantial.
Q. Those are consistent?
A. These are all bruises.
Q. Those are consistent with him attempting to, or hitting his attacker, are they not, sir?
A. I am not sure whether they're from hitting at an attacker or whether they are from hitting the ground or from hitting the wall or from hitting the fence, or from hitting the tree. There is abrasions in there as well. There's a little abrasion in this area and here. I am not certain, exactly what he hit. He hit something.

bobaugust

[martin II]

The place where ron was found did not look like the place he was when he was attacked and cut.

[martin II]

Martin II, that’s not quite correct. The tree in the small garden area was between a metal fence and the cement stairs, the side of which was a low wall.

November 12, 1996 Dr. Spitz

Q. The bruises on the middle knuckle and the knuckles, those are substantial bruises, are they not?
A. I don't know what you call substantial.
Q. Those are consistent?
A. These are all bruises.
Q. Those are consistent with him attempting to, or hitting his attacker, are they not, sir?
A. I am not sure whether they're from hitting at an attacker or whether they are from hitting the ground or from hitting the wall or from hitting the fence, or from hitting the tree. There is abrasions in there as well. There's a little abrasion in this area and here. I am not certain, exactly what he hit. He hit something.

bobaugust

in the picture of rons body curled up i don't see a tree or a wall next to him.

not saying there was none but i did not see it. i remember some comment about a tree but thought it was further from him going towards the house.
but i think the hand wounds were from scrapes on the ground tiles at the gate.

[bobaugust]

in the picture of rons body curled up i don't see a tree or a wall next to him.

not saying there was none but i did not see it. i remember some comment about a tree but thought it was further from him going towards the house.
but i think the hand wounds were from scrapes on the ground tiles at the gate.

Ron was found with his head at the base of the large tree in the garden area.

bobaugust

[GreenIce]

yes
when Arnell came home her car was parked near the bently. but only one bently inside

Martin,

Did Park insist that he saw another car in the drive way? So sure in fact he knew it was a black Saab?

[GreenIce]

It's makes no sense to think that Ron would have just let his arms dangle when someone was trying to kill him. Ron was flailing his arms around to try to defend himself in a small area. Of course he injured his hands.

TV,

IMO, if Ron was being held and stabbed from behind, his arms would have been flailing. However, the injuries to his hands are consistent with his making a fist and striking out, in other words, he was able to make a fist and throw at least one or two good punches. IMO, he would have been, if being held from behind that he would have used his hands to try to free himself first, and then try to throw punches.

One of the jurors was a black belt in one of the martial arts. And, in his opinon, Ron's injured hands were from striking another person. Again, that was his opinon.

[martin II]

gi

no one has been able to explain exactly how a foot print could have been made in a pool of blood created only in 90 minutes. i believe it would take more time for the proper viscosity to form to make the kind of prints found at Bundy.

[GreenIce]

Why would they ask Sydney where her father is? Why wouldn't they think he was at home? Home is usually the first place you look for someone.

The detectives didn't say Simpson was never a suspect. They said he wasn't a suspect until the glove was found on the walkway at Rockingham. The blood drop wasn't tiny; it was slightly smaller than a dime. Under normal circumstances it would be no big deal but Simpson's ex-wife and her friend had just been murdered a few miles away.

TV,

IMO, the question is why wouldn't they ask Sydney where her father was? According the detectives, she and her brother were the reason that 4 detectives went to Rockingham to tell Simpson. In American Tragedy, there were two officers in charge of watching Sydney and Justin, while one of the officers tried to keep the kids occupied, the other was trying to find relatives to call. Why would this officer waste almost 5 hours before asking Sydney?

Yes, the detectives did say that Simpson was not a suspect. Despite knowing about the 2 prior DV calls, possibly the 3rd, their insistance that he was not a suspect was their downfall. There was no way a juror was going to believe this.

Later, VA gave that "potential" suspect story. One problem with that, for Simpson to have been a "potential" suspect, he would have had to know that Simpson and Nicole saw/and or talked to each other within the past 24 to 72 hours. Sydney already told the police that both her parents were at the recital that night.

VA's claim that it was glove that caused him to suspect Simpson also falls apart--unless he knew what the time the murders happened and when Simpson left for the airport. There is no way they could have determined, at that time that Simpson was the source of the thumps. The only way it makes sense about the glove being the deciding factor about Simpson being a suspect is if he knew a lot more information that he claims that he did not know.

That tiny blood drop means nothing, they left a blood bath at Bundy, they knew the killer was bleeding--a tiny drop of blood, that VA had to put his glasses on to see, is not cause for alarm. The Bronco was parked "funny", two detectives see one single drop of blood, so they were alarmed?

The problem is, the detectives claimed the "funny" parked Bronco was parked that way because who ever parked it, was in hurry. So how does the blood drop and funny parked Bronco equal concern for Simpson or the live in maid?


Again, IMO, it was issues like these that not only hurt the detectives, but it hurt the DA's and the judge. Again, IMO.

[GreenIce]

Martin,

IMO, I believe there is more then one killer. I believe that Ron was taken down by two killers. I believe one held him from behind and perhaps was forced to watch Nicole be killed and then the second killer came at him.

However, if we go with the one killer theory as well as the kill from behind theory, then shouldn't the fibers found on Ron's shirt been on the back of shirt?

You also made a comment before about where Ron was killed and where he was found, I remember reading something that does support this, that it looked Ron was moved and basically leaned up against the fence or whatever.

Did you have a chance to look at the close up of the photo--MF point at the glove and the hat?

[GreenIce]

gi

no one has been able to explain exactly how a foot print could have been made in a pool of blood created only in 90 minutes. i believe it would take more time for the proper viscosity to form to make the kind of prints found at Bundy.

Martin,

The thing about the bloody shoe prints never made sense to me unless they were left there on purpose. First off there were shoe prints that made no sense and the DA's couldn't figure it out. Someone about one going one way and another going another way.

It also makes no sense that killer(s) would leave through the back gate. Why not avoid the whole shoe print thing by going to the condo and the garage into the alley?

Also, I have never been able to figure why the killer went back into the killing cage.

The footprints didn't match Simpson's gait or his pigeon toes, if I remember correctly.

[tv]

TV,

IMO, if Ron was being held and stabbed from behind, his arms would have been flailing. However, the injuries to his hands are consistent with his making a fist and striking out, in other words, he was able to make a fist and throw at least one or two good punches. IMO, he would have been, if being held from behind that he would have used his hands to try to free himself first, and then try to throw punches.

One of the jurors was a black belt in one of the martial arts. And, in his opinon, Ron's injured hands were from striking another person. Again, that was his opinon.
This was recently posted by bobaugust. You must have missed it:

November 12, 1996 Dr. Spitz

Q. The bruises on the middle knuckle and the knuckles, those are substantial bruises, are they not?
A. I don't know what you call substantial.
Q. Those are consistent?
A. These are all bruises.
Q. Those are consistent with him attempting to, or hitting his attacker, are they not, sir?
A. I am not sure whether they're from hitting at an attacker or whether they are from hitting the ground or from hitting the wall or from hitting the fence, or from hitting the tree. There is abrasions in there as well. There's a little abrasion in this area and here. I am not certain, exactly what he hit. He hit something.

[GreenIce]

This was recently posted by bobaugust. You must have missed it:

November 12, 1996 Dr. Spitz

Q. The bruises on the middle knuckle and the knuckles, those are substantial bruises, are they not?
A. I don't know what you call substantial.
Q. Those are consistent?
A. These are all bruises.
Q. Those are consistent with him attempting to, or hitting his attacker, are they not, sir?
A. I am not sure whether they're from hitting at an attacker or whether they are from hitting the ground or from hitting the wall or from hitting the fence, or from hitting the tree. There is abrasions in there as well. There's a little abrasion in this area and here. I am not certain, exactly what he hit. He hit something.

TV,

I did miss this post. Thanks.

However, I have oftened wonder the police did not ask to take pictures of Simpson's body when they asked to photograph his finger. They had no way of knowing that the only injury the killer suffered was a cut finger. Again, IMO.

[martin II]

Martin,

Did Park insist that he saw another car in the drive way? So sure in fact he knew it was a black Saab?

i don't think he said the other car was a Saab. just two cars.
Park claimed that there were two cars in the driveway when he was at rockingham. he was wrong. Only the Bently was there.Clarke tried to get him to change this but he stuck to two cars idea.
i think that Park had seen pictures ,after 6/12, that showed the Bently and Arnells car in the driveway and he simply transfered the media picture to his testimony Or his eyesight was doubled on the night of 6/12.:cool:

[martin II]

Martin,

The thing about the bloody shoe prints never made sense to me unless they were left there on purpose. First off there were shoe prints that made no sense and the DA's couldn't figure it out. Someone about one going one way and another going another way.

It also makes no sense that killer(s) would leave through the back gate. Why not avoid the whole shoe print thing by going to the condo and the garage into the alley?

Also, I have never been able to figure why the killer went back into the killing cage.

The footprints didn't match Simpson's gait or his pigeon toes, if I remember correctly.


Wagner suggest that it would take about 10 minutes for the blood to have the correct pool thickness to make the foot print that was found.Before then it would be too liquid or runny.He did a experiement to come to this conclusion.

There is no valid explination as to why the foot prints went in different directions and the prints did not match ojs gait .Dr lee said that the blood source of the drops indicated the person was standing still not walking.

[martin II]

Martin,

IMO, I believe there is more then one killer. I believe that Ron was taken down by two killers. I believe one held him from behind and perhaps was forced to watch Nicole be killed and then the second killer came at him.

However, if we go with the one killer theory as well as the kill from behind theory, then shouldn't the fibers found on Ron's shirt been on the back of shirt?

You also made a comment before about where Ron was killed and where he was found, I remember reading something that does support this, that it looked Ron was moved and basically leaned up against the fence or whatever.

Did you have a chance to look at the close up of the photo--MF point at the glove and the hat?


i think there were two killers. One that grabbed nicole at the front door and another that was hiding near the mailbox outside the front gate that grabbed ron from behind in a headlock. I believe that after rons jugular was cut he was put down on his seat as he was stabbed more. this is supoported by the lasrge amount of blood on the front and back of rons jeans.If the fibers came from the killers clothes they would be on the back of rons shirt where the killer came in contact with rons backside.

i looked to the furhman picture and saw a large piece of some kind of paper or tag. could not make out what it was and don't know if it was identified.

[martin II]

TV,

IMO, the question is why wouldn't they ask Sydney where her father was? According the detectives, she and her brother were the reason that 4 detectives went to Rockingham to tell Simpson. In American Tragedy, there were two officers in charge of watching Sydney and Justin, while one of the officers tried to keep the kids occupied, the other was trying to find relatives to call. Why would this officer waste almost 5 hours before asking Sydney?

Yes, the detectives did say that Simpson was not a suspect. Despite knowing about the 2 prior DV calls, possibly the 3rd, their insistance that he was not a suspect was their downfall. There was no way a juror was going to believe this.

Later, VA gave that "potential" suspect story. One problem with that, for Simpson to have been a "potential" suspect, he would have had to know that Simpson and Nicole saw/and or talked to each other within the past 24 to 72 hours. Sydney already told the police that both her parents were at the recital that night.

VA's claim that it was glove that caused him to suspect Simpson also falls apart--unless he knew what the time the murders happened and when Simpson left for the airport. There is no way they could have determined, at that time that Simpson was the source of the thumps. The only way it makes sense about the glove being the deciding factor about Simpson being a suspect is if he knew a lot more information that he claims that he did not know.

That tiny blood drop means nothing, they left a blood bath at Bundy, they knew the killer was bleeding--a tiny drop of blood, that VA had to put his glasses on to see, is not cause for alarm. The Bronco was parked "funny", two detectives see one single drop of blood, so they were alarmed?

The problem is, the detectives claimed the "funny" parked Bronco was parked that way because who ever parked it, was in hurry. So how does the blood drop and funny parked Bronco equal concern for Simpson or the live in maid?


Again, IMO, it was issues like these that not only hurt the detectives, but it hurt the DA's and the judge. Again, IMO.

I think it was Riske sp that was in nicoles kitchen making phone calls from her phone that was next to her message board. i remember reading that one number had Daddy written next to it but the cop never called it.

[martin II]

vanhatter lied to the judge to get the search warrant.

[martin II]

TV,

IMO, the question is why wouldn't they ask Sydney where her father was? According the detectives, she and her brother were the reason that 4 detectives went to Rockingham to tell Simpson. In American Tragedy, there were two officers in charge of watching Sydney and Justin, while one of the officers tried to keep the kids occupied, the other was trying to find relatives to call. Why would this officer waste almost 5 hours before asking Sydney?

Yes, the detectives did say that Simpson was not a suspect. Despite knowing about the 2 prior DV calls, possibly the 3rd, their insistance that he was not a suspect was their downfall. There was no way a juror was going to believe this.

Later, VA gave that "potential" suspect story. One problem with that, for Simpson to have been a "potential" suspect, he would have had to know that Simpson and Nicole saw/and or talked to each other within the past 24 to 72 hours. Sydney already told the police that both her parents were at the recital that night.

VA's claim that it was glove that caused him to suspect Simpson also falls apart--unless he knew what the time the murders happened and when Simpson left for the airport. There is no way they could have determined, at that time that Simpson was the source of the thumps. The only way it makes sense about the glove being the deciding factor about Simpson being a suspect is if he knew a lot more information that he claims that he did not know.

That tiny blood drop means nothing, they left a blood bath at Bundy, they knew the killer was bleeding--a tiny drop of blood, that VA had to put his glasses on to see, is not cause for alarm. The Bronco was parked "funny", two detectives see one single drop of blood, so they were alarmed?

The problem is, the detectives claimed the "funny" parked Bronco was parked that way because who ever parked it, was in hurry. So how does the blood drop and funny parked Bronco equal concern for Simpson or the live in maid?


Again, IMO, it was issues like these that not only hurt the detectives, but it hurt the DA's and the judge. Again, IMO.
oj could have beem in a hurry when he drove the bronco out of his driveway and parked it on rockingham. He would be trying to get back inside the gate before it closed.

[martin II]

gi
another issue. In order to support the one killer theory the prosecution claimed that nicole must have been knocked out while oj was killimg ron because she had a bump on her head.That after ron was killed, oj then returned to nicole to finish her off.
There is no proof that nicole was ever knocked out and not fighting her attacker as ron was when both were being attacked. imo

[tv]

I think it was Riske sp that was in nicoles kitchen making phone calls from her phone that was next to her message board. i remember reading that one number had Daddy written next to it but the cop never called it.

Riske used the phone because he didn't want to broadcast the murders over the police radio because he knew it would bring the media immediately to the scene. LE didn't call 'daddy' because they wanted to make the notification in person as a courtesy because of Simpson's celebrity status.

[tv]

gi
another issue. In order to support the one killer theory the prosecution claimed that nicole must have been knocked out while oj was killimg ron because she had a bump on her head.That after ron was killed, oj then returned to nicole to finish her off.
There is no proof that nicole was ever knocked out and not fighting her attacker as ron was when both were being attacked. imo

Did anyone testify that they believe Nicole fought her attacker?

[Lodi]

Martin,

The thing about the bloody shoe prints never made sense to me unless they were left there on purpose. First off there were shoe prints that made no sense and the DA's couldn't figure it out. Someone about one going one way and another going another way.

It also makes no sense that killer(s) would leave through the back gate. Why not avoid the whole shoe print thing by going to the condo and the garage into the alley?

Also, I have never been able to figure why the killer went back into the killing cage.

The footprints didn't match Simpson's gait or his pigeon toes, if I remember correctly.

During the trial it was proposed that after killing Nicole, OJ went down the walk to the back gate just as Ron drove up. OJ turned and went back up the walk, stopping at where there is an indention in the building. He stepped into the indention and waited until Ron passed him and then followed Ron to where Nicole lay.

[weezer]

During the trial it was proposed that after killing Nicole, OJ went down the walk to the back gate just as Ron drove up. OJ turned and went back up the walk, stopping at where there is an indention in the building. He stepped into the indention and waited until Ron passed him and then followed Ron to where Nicole lay.

I actually don't remember that theory. In fact, I think it was established during the trial that Ron was murdered first.

[weezer]

gi
another issue. In order to support the one killer theory the prosecution claimed that nicole must have been knocked out while oj was killimg ron because she had a bump on her head.That after ron was killed, oj then returned to nicole to finish her off.
There is no proof that nicole was ever knocked out and not fighting her attacker as ron was when both were being attacked. imo

the 'bump on her head' was significant enough to cause a bruise on her brain! :punch:

there is absolute proof that Nicole did not fight with orenthal and that she was not on her feet during the attacks.

[martin II]

Did anyone testify that they believe Nicole fought her attacker?

I don't know the answer to that but i believe she also had what was called defensive wounds. But if not there is still no proof that she was knocked out at any time before she was killed.

[weezer]

oj could have beem in a hurry when he drove the bronco out of his driveway and parked it on rockingham. He would be trying to get back inside the gate before it closed.

LOL -- not only 'could have beem in a hurry' but I believe we all agree that he most certainly was in a hurry.

[weezer]

vanhatter lied to the judge to get the search warrant.

so says you! :punch:

[Lodi]

I actually don't remember that theory. In fact, I think it was established during the trial that Ron was murdered first.

You are probably correct. The memory is so distinct, I'm surprised that I'm wrong.

[weezer]

i think there were two killers. One that grabbed nicole at the front door and another that was hiding near the mailbox outside the front gate that grabbed ron from behind in a headlock. I believe that after rons jugular was cut he was put down on his seat as he was stabbed more. this is supoported by the lasrge amount of blood on the front and back of rons jeans.If the fibers came from the killers clothes they would be on the back of rons shirt where the killer came in contact with rons backside.

i looked to the furhman picture and saw a large piece of some kind of paper or tag. could not make out what it was and don't know if it was identified.

and these two killers left only orenthal's hair, blood, fiber, glove, hat, and bloody size 12 pigeon-toed BM footprints? riiiight

[martin II]

During the trial it was proposed that after killing Nicole, OJ went down the walk to the back gate just as Ron drove up. OJ turned and went back up the walk, stopping at where there is an indention in the building. He stepped into the indention and waited until Ron passed him and then followed Ron to where Nicole lay.

i don't think ron was ever at any indentation near the building.The blood on the tiles at and beyone the gate and where he was found indicates that he was always in that front area.But if he was attacked at this indication near the house,how did his body get to where it was found?

Another theory is that when ron arrived at the gate he saw the killer attacking nicole and yelled heyheyhey ,slammed the gate and was attacked from behind.imo

[weezer]

Wagner suggest that it would take about 10 minutes for the blood to have the correct pool thickness to make the foot print that was found.Before then it would be too liquid or runny.He did a experiement to come to this conclusion. so you don't leave wet footprints on a hard surface when you step out of the shower/tub/pool?

There is no valid explination as to why the foot prints went in different directions and the prints did not match ojs gait. where in the world was it EVER said that the gait did not match orenthal's? Dr lee said that the blood source of the drops indicated the person was standing still not walking.

Dr Lee never said any such thing.

[weezer]

TV,

IMO, if Ron was being held and stabbed from behind, his arms would have been flailing. However, the injuries to his hands are consistent with his making a fist and striking out, in other words, he was able to make a fist and throw at least one or two good punches. IMO, he would have been, if being held from behind that he would have used his hands to try to free himself first, and then try to throw punches. so it would be very plausible and even probable that using your interpretation of the wounds, Ron could have pulled the glove off of orenthal's hand?

One of the jurors was a black belt in one of the martial arts. And, in his opinon, Ron's injured hands were from striking another person. Again, that was his opinon.

you're not telling us that the jurors based their not guilty verdict on evidence not admitted in the trial are you?

[Lodi]

i don't think ron was ever at any indentation near the building.The blood on the tiles at and beyone the gate and where he was found indicates that he was always in that front area.But if he was attacked at this indication near the house,how did his body get to where it was found?

My memory was that Ron was not attacked at the indention. As I recall, OJ had walked to the back gate, then turned around presumably because he saw Ron arriving. OJ went back up the walk, his tracks showed that he hesitated at the indention because he left several tracks at that spot on the walkway. He then stepped into the dark indention to hide until Ron had gone by. He followed Ron to the spot where the attack took place.

[martin II]

Mr Rubin the glove expert testified that one would have to pull the gloves off ONE FINGER at a time to get them off. That his tight fitting gloves would not just drop off.