Random Discussions On The Case

[William Anthony]

What it apparently WAS the start of was a first effort to look down the south walkway; he turned back and finally began to investigate the area where the noise was heard.

I see you now want to change your statement that it was "as he was finishing" the first cursory search to "apparently WAS the start" to deny the obvious, which you garnered from the testimony, which was it was "as he was finishing".:) However, I have supplied the testimony, showing Kato did not turn around but walked down the driveway, performed a cursory search of the area behind his quarters, came back up the drive way, stood where Park said he saw Kato standing, kato contemplated letting the limo in and subsequently did let the limo in. There is no testimony that Kato performed another cursory search after finishing his first one until after he had let the limo in. In fact the testimony is the opposite. :)

[martin II]

What it apparently WAS the start of was a first effort to look down the south walkway; he turned back and finally began to investigate the area where the noise was heard.

You are off base again.
Kato walked to the tree and the first gate in the south walkway. He looked down the south walkway to see if he could see anything. He changed his mind about looking further so he turned around and walked back past the garage up the front driveway and pass the front door of the house.

[serpentsfall]

See Vanhatters criminal trial testimony.Lee did a presumptive test for blood
no confirmation test were done by anyone. So no blood was found.I have see no picture of such tree and heard no testimony of such. Jason testified that was no way or impossible for someone to jump the fence, Lee testified that one would have to be in a helicopter to get over the growth.
What i think is that if anyone had jumped that fence and fell against the wall
the leaves on the ground would have been distrubed and would show this in the pictures. Not so,.

Jason was OJ's son; I don't think his testimony on the matter was really tested. I love the way you (and William) seem to imply that presumptive tests for blood - tests that show it is possibly/probably blood - equals "no blood" whenever a followup confirmation test isn't done. Just because you'd think debris on the ground would look disturbed really means nothing. I didn't realize debris was put on the ground in any orderly way to begin with, so I'm not sure exactly how one definitively knows whether its been "disturbed" or not. Adrenalin is a funny thing; people have been known to do things when it is pumping that they otherwise couldn't do. You're expecting the DA to be able to prove a negative - to prove something that you expect would have happened wouldn't, but they have to do it at a later time and under different circumstances. They just couldn't do that, and OJ was found not guilty.

[martin II]

Really? Because I don't see you having fun. I see you as frequently becoming agitated and somewhat hostile when a poster challenges you or, in some cases, simply does not agree with you.

Kate

How you see me is of no importance to me.I have tried for some time to indicate this to you by not respond to your frequent post that attacks me. But for some strange reason you feel compelled to continue to try to get me to respond by posting to me.I am the only one that knows if i am having fun or not but you are entitled to your opinion . If by chance you were to ask me how i see your post my response would be no importance to me which is why i will now go back to my routine of not responding to your post.

[William Anthony]

Jason was OJ's son; I don't think his testimony on the matter was really tested. I love the way you (and William) seem to imply that presumptive tests for blood - tests that show it is possibly/probably blood - equals "no blood" whenever a followup confirmation test isn't done. Just because you'd think debris on the ground would look disturbed really means nothing. I didn't realize debris was put on the ground in any orderly way to begin with, so I'm not sure exactly how one definitively knows whether its been "disturbed" or not. Adrenalin is a funny thing; people have been known to do things when it is pumping that they otherwise couldn't do. You're expecting the DA to be able to prove a negative - to prove something that you expect would have happened wouldn't, but they have to do it at a later time and under different circumstances. They just couldn't do that, and OJ was found not guilty.

Why are we going back to the presumptive tests? Presumptive tests were not allowed in court because they yield false positives, meaning the substance found may not be blood. I simply corrected a post that said DF found blood in Simpson's drains. I expect the DAs to provide evidence from which a reasonable inference can be drawn to support their statements of the evidence. They did not, imho, and Simpson was found not guilty.

[martin II]

Jason was OJ's son; I don't think his testimony on the matter was really tested. I love the way you (and William) seem to imply that presumptive tests for blood - tests that show it is possibly/probably blood - equals "no blood" whenever a followup confirmation test isn't done. Just because you'd think debris on the ground would look disturbed really means nothing. I didn't realize debris was put on the ground in any orderly way to begin with, so I'm not sure exactly how one definitively knows whether its been "disturbed" or not. Adrenalin is a funny thing; people have been known to do things when it is pumping that they otherwise couldn't do. You're expecting the DA to be able to prove a negative - to prove something that you expect would have happened wouldn't, but they have to do it at a later time and under different circumstances. They just couldn't do that, and OJ was found not guilty.

Petrocelli questioned jason on the growth in the area. He tossed out the idea that it may have been possible for someone to have jumped from the salangers garage roof over the fense.This was proven as a goofy idea as there was no way for a person to get to the roof of the garage.
Petrocelli questioned Jason until he was finished.

The leaves on the ground were dropped their naturally as they fell from the growth.If somone was scuffling around on top of them i would expect to see evidence if this, Just my opinion.

[William Anthony]

Petrocelli questioned jason on the growth in the area. He tossed out the idea that it may have been possible for someone to have jumped from the salangers garage roof over the fense.This was proven as a goofy idea as there was no way for a person to get to the roof of the garage.
Petrocelli questioned Jason until he was finished.

The leaves on the ground were dropped their naturally as they fell from the growth.If somone was scuffling around on top of them i would expect to see evidence if this, Just my opinion.

No evidence of any blood drops back there but there is on the Rockingham entrance.

[martin II]

What it apparently WAS the start of was a first effort to look down the south walkway; he turned back and finally began to investigate the area where the noise was heard.

If he turned back from where he was then he would be back at the garage area.he would not investigate there as that was not near his room wall.right?

[martin II]

Jason was OJ's son; I don't think his testimony on the matter was really tested. I love the way you (and William) seem to imply that presumptive tests for blood - tests that show it is possibly/probably blood - equals "no blood" whenever a followup confirmation test isn't done. Just because you'd think debris on the ground would look disturbed really means nothing. I didn't realize debris was put on the ground in any orderly way to begin with, so I'm not sure exactly how one definitively knows whether its been "disturbed" or not. Adrenalin is a funny thing; people have been known to do things when it is pumping that they otherwise couldn't do. You're expecting the DA to be able to prove a negative - to prove something that you expect would have happened wouldn't, but they have to do it at a later time and under different circumstances. They just couldn't do that, and OJ was found not guilty.
No
If the da believes oj fell against the air conditioner i would expect them to take it to the lab and do whatever test are required to see if any blood or other matter could be found to identidfy who fell agains it.That does not seem to be asking too much. If the required proof test in not done after the presumptive test we do not know if it is a false positive or not.The court will not allow presumptive test as evidence, Must be a reason right.

[martin II]

Is this a picture of the court of public opinion or the posters in the CNN poll of whom 85% thought Simpson was guilty?:)

It could be people giving approval for the u.s. to go to war with Iraq or the reaction of the wealthy to a announcement of another Tax break for them.

[Kate Sachel]

How you see me is of no importance to me.I have tried for some time to indicate this to you by not respond to your frequent post that attacks me. But for some strange reason you feel compelled to continue to try to get me to respond by posting to me.I am the only one that knows if i am having fun or not but you are entitled to your opinion . If by chance you were to ask me how i see your post my response would be no importance to me which is why i will now go back to my routine of not responding to your post.

You have responded precisely how I speak of; thank you martin, for proving what I thought to be true all along.

When I respond to your posts it is not in an effort to get you to reply, it is an effort to correct what I feel to be your most unfortunate and misguided statements and, or, unwarranted rude comments to other individuals who are here attempting cordial debate and will continue to respond to those misguided statements regardless of whether you respond or not.

It's the outstanding difference between yourself and an individual such as William, with whom I disagree on a great many points, and he with me as well, but whom I nonetheless enjoy exchanges with based on the fact that he is a gentleman.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

Why are we going back to the presumptive tests? Presumptive tests were not allowed in court because they yield false positives, meaning the substance found may not be blood. I simply corrected a post that said DF found blood in Simpson's drains. I expect the DAs to provide evidence from which a reasonable inference can be drawn to support their statements of the evidence. They did not, imho, and Simpson was found not guilty.

To clarify for myself, you are not stating that it means definitively that there is no blood but more so speaking in regard to what is allowable evidence?

Kate

[martin II]

What would be the big deal about OJ possibly seeing a bloody glove on his driveway if he knew nothing about Nicole having just been murdered? If someone wanted to frame him, an innocent OJ would get blood on his hands if he saw and picked up the bloody glove! If you think the glove was planted after OJ left for Chicago, he wouldn't have been around to see it but cops would have seen it for sure. Apparently you don't think MF planted the glove, because he DID jump the fence that night to gain entry to Rockingham and the back walkway! So do you think OJ was not guilty but planted the glove to implicate himself?


In case you missed this.


no not right
kato did no search in the back north yard. you may be confused about locations.
Kato only passed the door twice once going to the south walkway and once comming back from that walkway.


kato walked from his room asround by the north side of the house and south pass the front door LIGHTS out. he continued to the south walkway the garage area.where he searched first.

oj came down with two bags moved the golf bag and went back into the house and tuned the lights on. By then Kato was leaving the south walkway
headed back pass the front door and this time he sees the lights on.

Now. Park said he saw kato on the north walk Ashford and saw a aa walk into the house.saw the lights go on and said someone home.at the same time.

From Katos testimony he was in the south walkway searching when oj turned the lights on.So park did not see Kato at the north side of the house when the lights came.As Kato was in the south walkway searching whenn oj turned the klights on.
i hope this is more clear.

[William Anthony]

To clarify for myself, you are not stating that it means definitively that there is no blood but more so speaking in regard to what is allowable evidence?

Kate

I don't know if you are aware of how this whole discussion started but it was alleged that DF testified he found blood in the drains. This is why I said he did not so testify. We will never know if what was found was blood or anything else as there were no follow up/confirmation tests done, to include what Dr. Lee found on the air conditioner. The state of the record is that no blood was found in the drains. I think it is accurate to say that something, which could or could not have been blood was found and I am not being non-responsive. :)

[martin II]

Jason was OJ's son; I don't think his testimony on the matter was really tested. I love the way you (and William) seem to imply that presumptive tests for blood - tests that show it is possibly/probably blood - equals "no blood" whenever a followup confirmation test isn't done. Just because you'd think debris on the ground would look disturbed really means nothing. I didn't realize debris was put on the ground in any orderly way to begin with, so I'm not sure exactly how one definitively knows whether its been "disturbed" or not. Adrenalin is a funny thing; people have been known to do things when it is pumping that they otherwise couldn't do. You're expecting the DA to be able to prove a negative - to prove something that you expect would have happened wouldn't, but they have to do it at a later time and under different circumstances. They just couldn't do that, and OJ was found not guilty.


We can agree that a presumptive test for blood is a quick test to tell us if there is a possibility of the sample being blood. If the presumptive test is positive then we will not toss it but take it to the lab to see if that test was actually positive or negative positive. if we don't do the confirmation test then we don't know if it is blood or not.
It is like finding a spot that looks like blood. We take it to the lab and do confirmation test to see if it is blood then to do comparison test to identify who the blood belongs to.
Would you agree that this is proper.

[William Anthony]

It could be people giving approval for the u.s. to go to war with Iraq or the reaction of the wealthy to a announcement of another Tax break for them.

They are a gleeful bunch. :)

[martin II]

You have responded precisely how I speak of; thank you martin, for proving what I thought to be true all along.

When I respond to your posts it is not in an effort to get you to reply, it is an effort to correct what I feel to be your most unfortunate and misguided statements and, or, unwarranted rude comments to other individuals who are here attempting cordial debate and will continue to respond to those misguided statements regardless of whether you respond or not.

It's the outstanding difference between yourself and an individual such as William, with whom I disagree on a great many points, and he with me as well, but whom I nonetheless enjoy exchanges with based on the fact that he is a gentleman.

Kate

You do seem to focus on making personal atacks or giving your personal negative opinions of individuals that have opinions different than yours. Including William i might say.

Maby more posting of testimony or evidence from the case would eliminate the need for personal attacks against posters. The moderator has advised that the ignore option is suggested when posters post become a irritant.Instead of assumming that it is you that must correct every post that you don't agree with you can take the moderators advice. After all what you call correctring is still only your opinion and all opinions have the same value. imo

[Kate Sachel]

You do seem to focus on making personal atacks or giving your personal negative opinions of individuals that have opinions different than yours. Including William i might say.

Maby more posting of testimony or evidence from the case would eliminate the need for personal attacks against posters. The moderator has advised that the ignore option is suggested when posters post become a irritant.Instead of assumming that it is you that must correct every post that you don't agree with you can take the moderators advice. After all what you call correctring is still only your opinion and all opinions have the same value. imo

I thought you were no longer going to reply to me?

Kate

[martin II]

They are a gleeful bunch. :)

William

It could be a group of the well informed approving the not guilty verdict.

[William Anthony]

William

It could be a group of the well informed approving the not guilty verdict.

You may be right. I considered them as well-dressed but not well-informed.:)

[martin II]

I thought you were no longer going to reply to me?

Kate

I was trying to get you to take the moderatots advice or at least post testimony that you have actually read. Either way it would eliminate your need to make personal negative comments towards me, william or anyone else.IMO

[martin II]

You may be right. I considered them as well-dressed but not well-informed.:)

Or maby it was from Dancing with the stars approving Lawrence Taylor or little kims tango.

[William Anthony]

They are getting ready to show a three year old with super human strength on Fox and may hold the secret to the fountain of youth. This may be an April fools joke but they have my interest. I hope they develop the drug soon, smile.

[William Anthony]

Or maby it was from Dancing with the stars approving Lawrence Taylor or little kims tango.

Maybe it was a reaction to the introduction of Rush Limbaugh. :)

[Kate Sachel]

I was trying to get you to take the moderatots advice or at least post testimony that you have actually read. Either way it would eliminate your need to make personal negative comments towards me, william or anyone else.IMO

Please feel free to post negative comments that I made toward William or any other individual with the exception of yourself. If you'd like, I can certainly put together and post a table of contents with all of your negative and rude postings that have occurred within just the past several weeks.

Kate

[Kate Sachel]

William,

I have now gotten to the point in Vincent Bugliosi's book in which he has rather unkind things to say about Johnnie Cochran. He does appear, by all accounts thus far, to recognize that he was doing his job however. The book really more focuses on how terribly the prosecution responded to Cochran's allegations and arguments.

Kate

[serpentsfall]

Why are we going back to the presumptive tests? Presumptive tests were not allowed in court because they yield false positives, meaning the substance found may not be blood. I simply corrected a post that said DF found blood in Simpson's drains. I expect the DAs to provide evidence from which a reasonable inference can be drawn to support their statements of the evidence. They did not, imho, and Simpson was found not guilty.

Why are we going back to presumptive tests? Because, in a nutshell, this message board is divided into two different camps that continually blend and separate: Camp A are those who want to discuss OJ Simpson's crime(s) to determine whether did he or did not do it and Camp B are those who want to discuss the law/legal system as it relates to his crimes to determine if the system worked or didn't and why. Posters are free to pick and choose what they will or won't consider; whether or not information is or was allowed in a court of law isn't always a consideration (unless you're a camp B-only poster.)

[tv]

After the glove was found the OBVIOUS conclusion for Clarke was that ojumped the fence and put it there.After the detectives said no one jumped the fence and no blood or other evidence was found to verify her claim she put that on the back burner.So what is obvious.

martin, if the glove had been planted the walkway would have been a stupid place to plant it. It would make more sense to leave it by the Bronco or even in the house or just throw it somewhere in the yard. Besides that, Mark Fuhrman, the one you think planted the glove, had no idea where OJ Simpson might be. For all he knew Simpson had been out of the country for days or weeks. It makes much more sense that a panicked OJ Simpson dropped the glove when he reentered his property.

[tv]

Why are we going back to presumptive tests? Because, in a nutshell, this message board is divided into two different camps that continually blend and separate: Camp A are those who want to discuss OJ Simpson's crime(s) to determine whether did he or did not do it and Camp B are those who want to discuss the law/legal system as it relates to his crimes to determine if the system worked or didn't and why. Posters are free to pick and choose what they will or won't consider; whether or not information is or was allowed in a court of law isn't always a consideration (unless you're a camp B-only poster.)
I'm Camp A with an occasional visit to Camp B. I think. :)

[William Anthony]

William,

I have now gotten to the point in Vincent Bugliosi's book in which he has rather unkind things to say about Johnnie Cochran. He does appear, by all accounts thus far, to recognize that he was doing his job however. The book really more focuses on how terribly the prosecution responded to Cochran's allegations and arguments.

Kate

Thanks. I think he rattled the prosecution in many ways. Ms. Clark called for a side bar and he told her she just wanted to be close to him. She responded with you aren't that irresistible or words to that effect.

[martin II]

QUOTE=serpentsfall;9178270]I don't think Kato testified he walked from the north lawn, where he first saw the limo and Park first saw him, to the south walkway by walking down the driveway past the front door.I gave you Katos testimony where he said he did just that.william has give the same testimony and Bob has given Katos path to the south walkway. if you still don't believe these post ok. He turned around and went back the way he'd come passing the back of the houseOne cannot see the front door from the bnack of the house. to the south walk It is not [possible to get to the back of the house from the back yard.at least that is not how Kato got there.to investigate.[/QUOTE]

If you don't read Katos testimony on where he walked you will remain confused.If you don;t read Bobs or williams post on where he walked you will continue to believe he walked in the back yard to get to the south walkway.
That would be wrong.

[William Anthony]

Why are we going back to presumptive tests? Because, in a nutshell, this message board is divided into two different camps that continually blend and separate: Camp A are those who want to discuss OJ Simpson's crime(s) to determine whether did he or did not do it and Camp B are those who want to discuss the law/legal system as it relates to his crimes to determine if the system worked or didn't and why. Posters are free to pick and choose what they will or won't consider; whether or not information is or was allowed in a court of law isn't always a consideration (unless you're a camp B-only poster.)

I simply thought that the information had been provided about what a presumptive test was and what the significance of it was and I thought you had been a part of that discussion. If I was wrong and you were not a part, then I can understand you wanting to rehash it. Yes, posters are free to consider what they will or won't, including what a presumptive test means and not consider that courts don't use them because they prove nothing, irrespective if the poster is a camp A or B.:)

[William Anthony]

I'm Camp A with an occasional visit to Camp B. I think. :)

You are in a camp all to yourself.:)

[tv]

You are in a camp all to yourself.:)

I don't think so. :)

[martin II]

Please feel free to post negative comments that I made toward William or any other individual with the exception of yourself. If you'd like, I can certainly put together and post a table of contents with all of your negative and rude postings that have occurred within just the past several weeks.

Kate

Again you seem to be more interested in posting personal comments about me than posting about the trial. I am more interested in responding to posters that talk about testimony and evidence in the trials.
Until i see trial information i will leave you to your own devices. imo

[tv]

Thanks. I think he rattled the prosecution in many ways. Ms. Clark called for a side bar and he told her she just wanted to be close to him. She responded with you aren't that irresistible or words to that effect.

I believe that falls under lighthearted banter.

[William Anthony]

I don't think so. :)

Your uniqueness adds to your charm.:)

[William Anthony]

I believe that falls under lighthearted banter.

I wonder if Darden saw it that way.:)

[tv]

I wonder if Darden saw it that way.:)
Darden is a bit of an odd duck so who knows?

[tv]

Your uniqueness adds to your charm.:)Thank you, I think, but they surely broke the mold after you were made. :)

[William Anthony]

Darden is a bit of an odd duck so who knows?

True dat.

[William Anthony]

Thank you, I think, but they surely broke the mold after you were made. :)

Thank you, I think.:)

[Kate Sachel]

Again you seem to be more interested in posting personal comments about me than posting about the trial. I am more interested in responding to posters that talk about testimony and evidence in the trials.
Until i see trial information i will leave you to your own devices. imo

I didn't think you would care to go there.

Kate

[martin II]

martin, if the glove had been planted the walkway would have been a stupid place to plant it. It would make more sense to leave it by the Bronco or even in the house or just throw it somewhere in the yard. Besides that, Mark Fuhrman, the one you think planted the glove, had no idea where OJ Simpson might be. For all he knew Simpson had been out of the country for days or weeks. It makes much more sense that a panicked OJ Simpson dropped the glove when he reentered his property.

As a poster has posted the Bronco may have been the planting place of choice until Kato told furhman about where he heard the noise. A planter can act irritional just as a murderer can.All le at the house knew where oj was when they talked to Arnell and CR.

What you say may make sense but the problem is that there was no proof that he was in the walkway so we cannot say he was because it makes sense without proof. is that right? One minute oj is smart enough to getr rid of the knife and shoes in a minute or two but didn't care about dropping the glove. Here is another thought If oj knew he dropped the glove back there he could have sent Kato to the back yard and he would have gone to retreive the glove in the south walkway and there would have been no glove found if he is the one that dropped it.Does that make sense?

martin II

[martin II]

I didn't think you would care to go there.

Kate

When you receive a appointment to evaluate posters post so you can make negative personal comments let me know.imo

[martin II]

I don't think so. :)

How about if i said you are special.

[martin II]

Maybe it was a reaction to the introduction of Rush Limbaugh. :)

Considering the faces of the people you may be right.

[tv]

Considering the faces of the people you may be right.
What does this mean?

[tv]

How about if i said you are special.
Thank you, I think. :)

[William Anthony]

What does this mean?

That they look like the type to enjoy radio. :)

[martin II]

What does this mean?

That they appear to be the kind of people that would show approval of RL. A group that listens to Steve Harvey would look different.I think

[tv]

As a poster has posted the Bronco may have been the planting place of choice until Kato told furhman about where he heard the noise. A planter can act irritional just as a murderer can.All le at the house knew where oj was when they talked to Arnell and CR.

What you say may make sense but the problem is that there was no proof that he was in the walkway so we cannot say he was because it makes sense without proof. is that right? One minute oj is smart enough to getr rid of the knife and shoes in a minute or two but didn't care about dropping the glove. Here is another thought If oj knew he dropped the glove back there he could have sent Kato to the back yard and he would have gone to retreive the glove in the south walkway and there would have been no glove found if he is the one that dropped it.Does that make sense?

martin II
Of course, OJ Simpson didn't realize where he'd dropped the glove. He probably knew he'd dropped it but had no time to go looking for it and especially not in the dark. Mark Fuhrman had no idea where OJ Simpson was when he spoke to Kato and found the glove. Planting the glove would have made no sense. Besides that, he didn't know whose blood or other DNA was on the glove. Another unanswered question: why didn't OJ Simpson want to investigate the cause of the noise that Kato heard? We know he was very particular about security. He even called and asked Kato to set the alarm when he had never given him the code before. Yet, he blew off the thumps even though it could have been intruders. Makes no sense. I don't agree that a planter wouldn't have his head together more than someone who had just committed two murders.

[tv]

That they appear to be the kind of people that would show approval of RL. A group that listens to Steve Harvey would look different.I think
What about them makes you think that?

[tv]

As a poster has posted the Bronco may have been the planting place of choice until Kato told furhman about where he heard the noise. A planter can act irritional just as a murderer can.All le at the house knew where oj was when they talked to Arnell and CR.

What you say may make sense but the problem is that there was no proof that he was in the walkway so we cannot say he was because it makes sense without proof. is that right? One minute oj is smart enough to getr rid of the knife and shoes in a minute or two but didn't care about dropping the glove. Here is another thought If oj knew he dropped the glove back there he could have sent Kato to the back yard and he would have gone to retreive the glove in the south walkway and there would have been no glove found if he is the one that dropped it.Does that make sense?

martin II

Sending Kato to retrieve the glove would be really dumb. Even dumb for OJ Simpson.

[martin II]

Of course, OJ Simpson didn't realize where he'd dropped the glove. He probably knew he'd dropped it but had no time to go looking for it and especially not in the dark. Mark Fuhrman had no idea where OJ Simpson was when he spoke to Kato and found the glove. Planting the glove would have made no sense. Besides that, he didn't know whose blood or other DNA was on the glove. Another unanswered question: why didn't OJ Simpson want to investigate the cause of the noise that Kato heard? We know he was very particular about security. He even called and asked Kato to set the alarm when he had never given him the code before. Yet, he blew off the thumps even though it could have been intruders. Makes no sense. I don't agree that a planter wouldn't have his head together more than someone who had just committed two murders.

Oj was trying to get the bags into the limo as Kato was talking about the noise. Park was trying to get the bags loaded while listening to Kato talk about a earthquake. I think oj had intrerest in investigating the walkway but
the light Kato had was not useful.He looked for a larger light in tht kitchen
until he realized what time it was. when he came out with Kato the idea was to go do a search But Park kept telling oj WE HAVE TO GO. or Something like we are late. Catching the plane took preferance over looking in the walkway.
He called to give Kato the key to the alarm because in the rush he had failed to set it himself.

[tv]

Oj was tryiong to get the bags into the limo as Kato was talking about the noise. Park was trying to get the bags loaded while listening to Kato talk about a earthquake. I think oj had intrerest in investigating the walkway but
the light Kato had was not useful.He looked for a larger light in tht kitchen
until he realized what time it was. when he came out with Kato the idea was to go do a search But Park kept telling oj WE HAVE TO GO. or Something like we are late. Catching the plane took preferance over looking in the walkway.
He called to give Kato the key to the alarm because in the rush he had failed to set it himself.

He obviously didn't take the thumps seriously and with good reason. He had caused the thumps so he knew it wasn't an intruder. He could have told Kato to call the police or the security company or he could have done so himself. He didn't even take them seriously enough to remember to set the alarm. All very telling.

[martin II]

Sending Kato to retrieve the glove would be really dumb. Even dumb for OJ Simpson.

Maby i was not clear
sending Kato to the back yard would be sending him in a direction away from the glove. This would allow Oj to go to the southwalkway where the glove is thought to have been.

[tv]

Maby i was not clear
sending Kato to the back yard would be sending him in a direction away from the glove. This would allow Oj to go to the southwalkway where the glove is thought to have been.Ok, I reread your post and you are saying distract Kato so he could retrieve the glove. The problem with that is that I don't think he knew where he dropped it. He didn't have to distract Kato; he could have made a pretense of investigating behind Kato's room and retrieved the glove at that time. He didn't know where he'd dropped it.

[William Anthony]

Of course, OJ Simpson didn't realize where he'd dropped the glove. He probably knew he'd dropped it but had no time to go looking for it and especially not in the dark. Mark Fuhrman had no idea where OJ Simpson was when he spoke to Kato and found the glove. Planting the glove would have made no sense. Besides that, he didn't know whose blood or other DNA was on the glove. Another unanswered question: why didn't OJ Simpson want to investigate the cause of the noise that Kato heard? We know he was very particular about security. He even called and asked Kato to set the alarm when he had never given him the code before. Yet, he blew off the thumps even though it could have been intruders. Makes no sense. I don't agree that a planter wouldn't have his head together more than someone who had just committed two murders.

It did not matter whether MF knew where Simpson was when he talked to Kato. MF found out where Simpson was before he allegedly found the glove back there and knew that Kato said he heard thumps back there. Simpson did not tell Kato not to investigate, he only said he had to get ready to catch the plane. Why would Simpson give Kato the alarm number, allowing him to search the house, if he so desired and Simpson had something to hide?
I think an experienced evidence planter would know instinctively what to do. :)

[William Anthony]

He obviously didn't take the thumps seriously and with good reason. He had caused the thumps so he knew it wasn't an intruder. He could have told Kato to call the police or the security company or he could have done so himself. He didn't even take them seriously enough to remember to set the alarm. All very telling.

Telling of what-that he thought Kato paranoid?

[weezer]

I don't know if you are aware of how this whole discussion started but it was alleged that DF testified he found blood in the drains. This is why I said he did not so testify. We will never know if what was found was blood or anything else as there were no follow up/confirmation tests done, to include what Dr. Lee found on the air conditioner. The state of the record is that no blood was found in the drains. I think it is accurate to say that something, which could or could not have been blood was found and I am not being non-responsive. :)

Fung did testify that he did a presumptive tests for blood and the tests were positive.

[tv]

It did not matter whether MF knew where Simpson was when he talked to Kato. MF found out where Simpson was before he allegedly found the glove back there and knew that Kato said he heard thumps back there. Simpson did not tell Kato not to investigate, he only said he had to get ready to catch the plane. Why would Simpson give Kato the alarm number, allowing him to search the house, if he so desired and Simpson had something to hide?
I think an experienced evidence planter would know instinctively what to do. :)Why didn't he have Kato call the security company or do it himself? He was very security conscious so this was out of character for him. He knew Kato wouldn't overstep his bounds and search the house. Why would he do that anyway? He'd been in the house before so there was nothing new for him to see. I'm ignoring your last comment.

[William Anthony]

Fung did testify that he did a presumptive tests for blood and the tests were positive.

Let's get the washer off spin cycle. You posted that DF said he found blood in Simpson's drains. Stop trying to wash lingerie with dark colored sweat suits.:)

[weezer]

Petrocelli questioned jason on the growth in the area. He tossed out the idea that it may have been possible for someone to have jumped from the salangers garage roof over the fense.This was proven as a goofy idea as there was no way for a person to get to the roof of the garage.
Petrocelli questioned Jason until he was finished.

The leaves on the ground were dropped their naturally as they fell from the growth.If somone was scuffling around on top of them i would expect to see evidence if this, Just my opinion.

do you remember Jason's testimony from the civil trial and how often he would go down that walk and how long it had been since he'd been back there?

[tv]

Telling of what-that he thought Kato paranoid?

Very telling that OJ Simpson wasn't worried about intruders. He knew he himself had caused the thumps.

[tv]

Petrocelli questioned jason on the growth in the area. He tossed out the idea that it may have been possible for someone to have jumped from the salangers garage roof over the fense.This was proven as a goofy idea as there was no way for a person to get to the roof of the garage.
Petrocelli questioned Jason until he was finished.

The leaves on the ground were dropped their naturally as they fell from the growth.If somone was scuffling around on top of them i would expect to see evidence if this, Just my opinion.

:shrug:

[William Anthony]

Why didn't he have Kato call the security company or do it himself? He was very security conscious so this was out of character for him. He knew Kato wouldn't overstep his bounds and search the house. Why would he do that anyway? He'd been in the house before so there was nothing new for him to see. I'm ignoring your last comment.

I would feel that, if no one had done anything by that time and there was commotion going on and people moving about, everything was alright. How did he know Kato would stay within his bounds? Who was there to tell on Kato? Maybe Kato just wanted to watch television, have a drink, anything. Why ignore my last comment? It is part of evidence which would allow such an inference. :)

[martin II]

He obviously didn't take the thumps seriously and with good reason. He had caused the thumps so he knew it wasn't an intruder. He could have told Kato to call the police or the security company or he could have done so himself. He didn't even take them seriously enough to remember to set the alarm. All very telling.

Good points

When Oj came down the last time the situation was rush rush,That is the feeling i got from the testimony.This may be why Both Park and Kato gave different testimonies about what bag was loaded where,They were rushing around loading bags inside and in the trunk until neither really remembered what they did.

If a noise was heard before and it was a person attempting to rob the house.I would think when three men arrived in the driveway area that person would have left pronto.

Again we don't know who caused what Kato says he heard.What if Kato though he heard the noise. What if he is mistaken about hearing the noise.
We have taken his word that this acutally happened because we have no way of proving that it didn't.

However if you find that Kato was in the south walkway as he testified that he was when the lights were turned on by oj then i will promise to give my best efforts to try to determine how that glove go where Furhman said he found it.:):cool:

[William Anthony]

Very telling that OJ Simpson wasn't worried about intruders. He knew he himself had caused the thumps.

Asked and Answered. However, you give me a plausible scenario where a person bangs not bumps into a wall three times, knowing someone is in the room on the wall he is banging on and is trying to avoid detection.

[tv]

Good points

When Oj came down the last time the situation was rush rush,That is the feeling i got from the testimony.This may be why Both Park and Kato gave different testimonies about what bag was loaded where,They were rushing around loading bags inside and in the trunk until neither really remembered what they did.

If a noise was heard before and it was a person attempting to rob the house.I would think when three men arrived in the driveway area that person would have left pronto.

Again we don't know who caused what Kato says he heard.What if Kato though he heard the noise. What if he is mistaken about hearing the noise.
We have taken his word that this acutally happened because we have no way of proving that it didn't.

However if you find that Kato was in the south walkway as he testified that he was when the lights were turned on by oj then i will promise to give my best efforts to try to determine how that glove go where Furhman said he found it.:):cool:martin, I guess I'm missing something but please tell me what the significance is of the lights being turned on while Kato was in the south walkway. I read his civil testimony yesterday where he said he was over by the garage which is by the north side of the house and the only light he noticed was in the bedroom.

[martin II]

:shrug:

I assume you have seen the pictures of the glove and the leaves.Does it look like someone was running or scuffling around in them? Or do they look like they are all in their natural resting place after falling from the trees and bushes.

[tv]

Asked and Answered. However, you give me a plausible scenario where a person bangs not bumps into a wall three times, knowing someone is in the room on the wall he is banging on and is trying to avoid detection.He fell against it. Maybe his body and then his arm or leg. Three almost simultaneous thumps. He probably wasn't even thinking about Kato being there at the time. I think Kato was like a flea on a dog's butt to him and he gave him very little thought.

[tv]

I assume you have seen the pictures of the glove and the leaves.Does it look like someone was running or scuffling around in them? Or do they look like they are all in their natural resting place after falling from the trees and bushes.
I don't think the glove fell from the trees or the bushes.

[tv]

I would feel that, if no one had done anything by that time and there was commotion going on and people moving about, everything was alright. How did he know Kato would stay within his bounds? Who was there to tell on Kato? Maybe Kato just wanted to watch television, have a drink, anything. Why ignore my last comment? It is part of evidence which would allow such an inference. :)
You act like Kato was a teenager on his first weekend alone in the house. Kato had been there many times when OJ wasn't there I'm sure. Why would he run wild on this night? Your last comment is not based on evidence and I'm not going there.

[tv]

do you remember Jason's testimony from the civil trial and how often he would go down that walk and how long it had been since he'd been back there?

I'm going to go back and reread Jason's testimony. I don't recall it being very helpful to his father.

[weezer]

Very telling that OJ Simpson wasn't worried about intruders. He knew he himself had caused the thumps.

if nothing else would have reminded him to set the alarm, it would have been kato going on and on about the noise outside his room. especially when you consider how weird orenthal is about his 'stuff'!

when orenthal called kato to have him set the alarm, did he even ask if kato had heard/seen anything else?

[martin II]

martin, I guess I'm missing something but please tell me what the significance is of the lights being turned on while Kato was in the south walkway. I read his civil testimony yesterday where he said he was over by the garage which is by the north side of the house and the only light he noticed was in the bedroom.

Nope

The garage is not by the north side of the house and he did not say that. it is at the south side of ojs property . it is at the mouth of the south walkway where the glove was found.

He walked from the ashford area due south pass the front door NO LIGHTS ON to around the garage to the south walkway where the glove was found.

He Turned around and walked back pass the garage and north pass the front door LIGHTS NOW ON up to the Ashford gate North side and opened the gate for PARK.

The north Side of the house is on the Ashford side of the property the opposite side of the property from where the glove was found.
I posted the layout of the property to make is easy to understand the path that Kato took.i can post it again if you need it.

[serpentsfall]

You are off base again.
Kato walked to the tree and the first gate in the south walkway. He looked down the south walkway to see if he could see anything. He changed his mind about looking further so he turned around and walked back past the garage up the front driveway and pass the front door of the house.

It has taken me all morning with starts and stops, but I've had a chance to go read all of Kato's testimony and I concede you are correct and I was wrong about Kato going in front of the house to go to the south walkway. Thanks for hanging in there with me til I was able to get on you wavelength!

[martin II]

I don't think the glove fell from the trees or the bushes.

I am talking about the leaves on the ground.

[martin II]

It has taken me all morning with starts and stops, but I've had a chance to go read all of Kato's testimony and I concede you are correct and I was wrong about Kato going in front of the house to go to the south walkway. Thanks for hanging in there with me til I was able to get on you wavelength!

You said Kato went in the back of the house.

I posted his testimony where he walked on the west side of the house in FRONT of the front door to the south walkway.

[tv]

if nothing else would have reminded him to set the alarm, it would have been kato going on and on about the noise outside his room. especially when you consider how weird orenthal is about his 'stuff'!

when orenthal called kato to have him set the alarm, did he even ask if kato had heard/seen anything else?
Not that I've ever heard.

[martin II]

I'm going to go back and reread Jason's testimony. I don't recall it being very helpful to his father.

HE dubunked Petricillis idea that someone could jump from the roof of the salangers garage or come through the growth.

[William Anthony]

He fell against it. Maybe his body and then his arm or leg. Three almost simultaneous thumps. He probably wasn't even thinking about Kato being there at the time. I think Kato was like a flea on a dog's butt to him and he gave him very little thought.

You do not have the benefit of kato's demonstration but there was a pause between each bang. I don't care if Kato knows I killed someone is that what you're asking me to believe was Simpson's mindset?

[William Anthony]

You act like Kato was a teenager on his first weekend alone in the house. Kato had been there many times when OJ wasn't there I'm sure. Why would he run wild on this night? Your last comment is not based on evidence and I'm not going there.

I did not say he would run wild and sorry, if I gave that impression. I was saying that, if he had something to hide, why let Kato know that the alarm wasn't set and he could possibly have walked through the house for any reason?

[William Anthony]

if nothing else would have reminded him to set the alarm, it would have been kato going on and on about the noise outside his room. especially when you consider how weird orenthal is about his 'stuff'!

when orenthal called kato to have him set the alarm, did he even ask if kato had heard/seen anything else?

I am sure if he had asked kato that the prosecution would have tried to make it into something sinister.:)

[weezer]

I am sure if he had asked kato that the prosecution would have tried to make it into something sinister.:)

come on now william -- orenthal lived in a beautiful home full of beautiful and expensive 'stuff' and many 'treasures'. Yet, on the night that all of this happened, he leaves his home unlocked/unarmed, knowing that kato has thought enough of the noise/vibration that he is out looking around the property? he doesn't call the security company -- that he is paying for -- to come check out the premises? when he calls the houseguest that he had to 'remind' to turn off the jets in the jacuzzi, he doesn't ask if kato noticed/saw/heard anything else?

orenthal wasn't alarmed over the noise/vibration -- he knew it was him that was responsible for it. his focus was getting out of town.

[martin II]

He fell against it. Maybe his body and then his arm or leg. Three almost simultaneous thumps. He probably wasn't even thinking about Kato being there at the time. I think Kato was like a flea on a dog's butt to him and he gave him very little thought.

you still have the problem of the detectives testifying that no one jumped the fence or came through the growth. 'He fell against it" How does one fall against a wall three times.Did He keep trying to fall different ways.?

[weezer]

HE dubunked Petricillis idea that someone could jump from the roof of the salangers garage or come through the growth.

how do you figure that martin? his testimony didn't 'debunk' anything about that area -- he didn't know about that area.

wasn't it bobaugust that told us about the look on orenthal's face during the taping of his little movie when he was on the walkway and the section of the top of the fence was pushed over as if someone had stood on it? LOL

[weezer]

you still have the problem of the detectives testifying that no one jumped the fence or came through the growth. 'He fell against it" How does one fall against a wall three times.Did He keep trying to fall different ways.?

you keep posting this about the detectives testimony and I believe you are wrong. please post the date that the testimony took place.

[tv]

you still have the problem of the detectives testifying that no one jumped the fence or came through the growth. 'He fell against it" How does one fall against a wall three times.Did He keep trying to fall different ways.?
Why do you discount almost everything else the detectives said except this one thing?

[martin II]

come on now william -- orenthal lived in a beautiful home full of beautiful and expensive 'stuff' and many 'treasures'. Yet, on the night that all of this happened, he leaves his home unlocked/unarmed, knowing that kato has thought enough of the noise/vibration that he is out looking around the property? he doesn't call the security company -- that he is paying for -- to come check out the premises? when he calls the houseguest that he had to 'remind' to turn off the jets in the jacuzzi, he doesn't ask if kato noticed/saw/heard anything else?

orenthal wasn't alarmed over the noise/vibration -- he knew it was him that was responsible for it. his focus was getting out of town.

We don't know what oj talked to Kato about as Kato was not asked questions other than about the code.If Kato did have some new news he would have told oj i went back there and did not see anyone or something like that.Since he didn't oj was ok to assume there was no threat.
I have no problem with oj forgeting to set the alarm as when he and Kato had decided to make a last look Park again told him WE HAVE TO GO.


Kato had been in the walkway twice before oj left and had seen nothing.

[weezer]

We don't know what oj talked to Kato about as Kato was not asked questions other than about the code.If Kato did have some new news he would have told oj i went back there and did not see anyone or something like that.Since he didn't oj was ok to assume there was no threat.
I have no problem with oj forgeting to set the alarm as when he and Kato had decided to make a last look Park again told him WE HAVE TO GO.


Kato had been in the walkway twice before oj left and had seen nothing.

nope -- none of that sounds like the orenthal we've come to know and love. he was too controlling and possessive.

[William Anthony]

come on now william -- orenthal lived in a beautiful home full of beautiful and expensive 'stuff' and many 'treasures'. Yet, on the night that all of this happened, he leaves his home unlocked/unarmed, knowing that kato has thought enough of the noise/vibration that he is out looking around the property? he doesn't call the security company -- that he is paying for -- to come check out the premises? when he calls the houseguest that he had to 'remind' to turn off the jets in the jacuzzi, he doesn't ask if kato noticed/saw/heard anything else?

orenthal wasn't alarmed over the noise/vibration -- he knew it was him that was responsible for it. his focus was getting out of town.

Allow me to pay prosecution.

Q. At the point when you testified that Simpson called you to give you the alarm code, did he ask you anything else that caused you to respond, without going into what he asked you.

A. Yes

Q. What was your response.

A. I told him that I had not seen anything that was suspicious or anyone on the property.

Q. So is it fair to say, without going into any specific comment made by the defendant, that your frame of mind was that there was some concern by the defendant as to suspicious activity at Rockingham.

By the defense-objection

By the prosecution-not admitted for the truth of the matter asserted but it goes to the witness' state of mind and explains subsequent conduct.

By the court-overruled.

A. Yes.

[William Anthony]

how do you figure that martin? his testimony didn't 'debunk' anything about that area -- he didn't know about that area.

wasn't it bobaugust that told us about the look on orenthal's face during the taping of his little movie when he was on the walkway and the section of the top of the fence was pushed over as if someone had stood on it? LOL

The world according to Garth comes to mind.:)

[martin II]

Why do you discount almost everything else the detectives said except this one thing?

I discount Vanhatters reason for carrying the blood around because it makes no sense.

Vanhatters and the other detectives testimony about no one jumping the fence conflicts Clarke claims.So i am inclined to believe they are telling the truth based on their investigation other wise they could have just agreed with her.Vanhatter knew the blood drops led from the Bronco to the front door. To then say they led to the walkway without no blood evidence would have been silly and not believable and i tihnk vanhatter knew this and he was not going to get caught in clarks nonsense.So i believe him on that issue.

[martin II]

Allow me to pay prosecution.

Q. At the point when you testified that Simpson called you to give you the alarm code, did he ask you anything else that caused you to respond, without going into what he asked you.

A. Yes

Q. What was your response.

A. I told him that I had not seen anything that was suspicious or anyone on the property.

Q. So is it fair to say, without going into any specific comment made by the defendant, that your frame of mind was that there was some concern by the defendant as to suspicious activity at Rockingham.

By the defense-objection

By the prosecution-not admitted for the truth of the matter asserted but it goes to the witness' state of mind and explains subsequent conduct.

By the court-overruled.

A. Yes.

Quick draw
You got rid of that concern pronto.

[tv]

I discount Vanhatters reason for carrying the blood around because it makes no sense.

Vanhatters and the other detectives testimony about no one jumping the fence conflicts Clarke claims.So i am inclined to believe they are telling the truth based on their investigation other wise they could have just agreed with her.Vanhatter knew the blood drops led from the Bronco to the front door. To then say they led to the walkway without no blood evidence would have been silly and not believable and i tihnk vanhatter knew this and he was not going to get caught in clarks nonsense.So i believe him on that issue.

If you believe it would have implicated Simpson for Vannatter and the other detectives to say Simpson jumped the fence then you can't beleive that they were in league to frame him. As you say it would have been too easy for them to jump on the jumping the fence bandwagon.

[martin II]

nope -- none of that sounds like the orenthal we've come to know and love. he was too controlling and possessive.

I see william has answered your concerns on those issues.

[weezer]

Allow me to pay prosecution.

Q. At the point when you testified that Simpson called you to give you the alarm code, did he ask you anything else that caused you to respond, without going into what he asked you.

A. Yes

Q. What was your response.

A. I told him that I had not seen anything that was suspicious or anyone on the property.

Q. So is it fair to say, without going into any specific comment made by the defendant, that your frame of mind was that there was some concern by the defendant as to suspicious activity at Rockingham.

By the defense-objection

By the prosecution-not admitted for the truth of the matter asserted but it goes to the witness' state of mind and explains subsequent conduct.

By the court-overruled.

A. Yes.

yet he drove off without setting the alarm --

[William Anthony]

Quick draw
You got rid of that concern pronto.

Thanks and I would argue in closing that Simpson had no reason to be concerned about suspicious activity because of the commotion and Kato's investigations into the sound of the noise and Simpson was only asking to see if LE had come to his estate or had their been any reports of the murders.

[martin II]

If you believe it would have implicated Simpson for Vannatter and the other detectives to say Simpson jumped the fence then you can't beleive that they were in league to frame him. As you say it would have been too easy for them to jump on the jumping the fence bandwagon.

There are many issues and testimony in the case. On some issues people did not tell the truth on others some did.I don't think all detectives were in league to frame oj as it would not require that all had to be for a frame to take place.Maby instead of framing a better word would be to enhance the evidence against him.

[weezer]

The world according to Garth comes to mind.:)

you seem to get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of displaying your disrespect for bobaugust. the fact that you take whatever scenario you feel like arguing about and twist/turn it to get debate going is fine. you should know however that most people understand that your knowledge of the case is very limited and very biased. Most folks on this board respect bobaugust's knowledge of the facts of this case.

[William Anthony]

yet he drove off without setting the alarm --

We all forget things. Just as you forgot what DF's testimony was about the blood in the drains and you recently corrected me on something I was wrong about.:) I did not accuse you of murder nor did you me.:)

[martin II]

yet he drove off without setting the alarm --

Nope
he was told by the limo driver the person keeping tract of the time WE HAVE TO GO NOW he hopped into the open door of the waiting limo and the driver drove him off.Oj did not drive anything.

[weezer]

Thanks and I would argue in closing that Simpson had no reason to be concerned about suspicious activity because of the commotion and Kato's investigations into the sound of the noise and Simpson was only asking to see if LE had come to his estate or had their been any reports of the murders.

he probably was worried about someone finding the bodies before he could get out of town BUT the fact remains he left his valued possessions and treasures -- not to mention his daughter -- to be protected by the guy he had to remind to turn the jacuzzi off.

[tv]

martin, you don't have to believe he jumped the fence to believe he left the glove back there. How about this scenario?

When Simpson arrives at his home, he sees the limo waiting for him at the Ashford gate. He pulls the Bronco to an abrupt stop at the curb by the Rockingham gate. The sudden braking of the car dislodges the piece of wood that was picked up in the alley; it falls onto the parkway. The Bronco is parked haphazardly, but Simpson either does not notice or does not have time to correct it.

Simpson walks toward the front door, blood dripping from his left hand. He sees limo driver Allan Park ringing the buzzer at the Ashford gate. If it is possible, Simpson becomes even more panicked. Even in the dim light, Simpson thinks the driver recognizes him. After all, he is OJ. Here in the doorway there is at least enough light for Simpson to see the cut on his left hand. This may be the first time he realizes he is cut. He puts the hand into his pocket to keep from dripping more blood.

After seeing the limo driver and his own injury, he does not know what to do. But he realizes that if he walks into the front door, the limo driver will think he is returning from being out. This will ruin whatever alibi he might come up with. Simpson turns toward the garage and runs down the narrow path wihich goes behind the bungalows. He knows the path will ultimately lead him around to the pool area where he can enter his home through the patio door. Running down the dark path, he collides with an air conditioner braced at about chest height. Simpson hits the air conditioner with force and spins clockwise, striking the wall.

[weezer]

Nope
he was told by the limo driver the person keeping tract of the time WE HAVE TO GO NOW he hopped into the open door of the waiting limo and the driver drove him off.Oj did not drive anything.

oh for pete's sake -- the limo driver was keeping tract of the time? LOL

[William Anthony]

you seem to get some kind of perverse enjoyment out of displaying your disrespect for bobaugust. the fact that you take whatever scenario you feel like arguing about and twist/turn it to get debate going is fine. you should know however that most people understand that your knowledge of the case is very limited and very biased. Most folks on this board respect bobaugust's knowledge of the facts of this case.

If I was compelled to live my life by what bobaugust or most people on this board thought, I would not be very happy with myself. My knowledge of the criminal trial is above average. Most of what I see here is speculation based on what some others many of whom had no part in the trial have said or in works of fiction. Bobaugust has done quite a bit of research on the case and supports his arguments. I support those position of bobaugust's with which I have disagreements. There is a tendency of some who feel compelled to bring bobaugust up, letting me know that they have little knowledge of the case and rely heavily on the opinions of others. I am not of that category as I have reached my own opinions based on what I saw, while I watched the trial. All of us have opinions that are biased but I can say that my opinions are mine based on what I feel and not what someone else has told me I should feel. Please, do not try to start something between bobaugust and myself as we are capable of doing that without any assistance. :)

[martin II]

yet he drove off without setting the alarm --

you ever left your house to go shoppping got to your destination and realized you left your shopping list at home.

[William Anthony]

he probably was worried about someone finding the bodies before he could get out of town BUT the fact remains he left his valued possessions and treasures -- not to mention his daughter -- to be protected by the guy he had to remind to turn the jacuzzi off.

I think he relied on his daughter to protect Kato. :)

[William Anthony]

you ever left your house to go shoppping got to your destination and realized you left your shopping list at home.

Why would she do that when she has a cook. :)

[tv]

you ever left your house to go shoppping got to your destination and realized you left your shopping list at home.Not if remembering the shopping list would help me escape being accused of killing two people.

[martin II]

oh for pete's sake -- the limo driver was keeping tract of the time? LOL

yes
his job was to get oj to the airport in time to catch his flight.He knew how long it would take to do this Which is why he told oj WE HAVE TO GO.

[William Anthony]

Not if remembering the shopping list would help me escape being accused of killing two people.

Was it you that had the cook that thought he was your husband? Whoever it was, I liked that remark. :)

[William Anthony]

yes
his job was to get oj to the airport in time to catch his flight.He knew how long it would take to do this Which is why he told oj WE HAVE TO GO.

How dare he rush Simpson, who was waiting on LE to arrive and arrest him.:)

[tv]

Was it you that had the cook that thought he was your husband? Whoever it was, I liked that remark. :)That funny remark was from weezer. :)

[William Anthony]

That funny remark was from weezer. :)

I thought I had it right but wanted to be certain.

[William Anthony]

When you got what you want in the struggle for life
and the world makes you king for a day
just go to the mirror and look at yourself
and see what that man has to say

For its not your mother father or wife
on whose judgment you must pass
but what matter most in you life
is the verdict of the man in the glass

Some may say you're a straight shooting chum
and a heck of a wonderful guy
but to yourself you're merely a bum
if you can't look the man in the glass straight in the eye.

[martin II]

martin, you don't have to believe he jumped the fence to believe he left the glove back there. How about this scenario?

When Simpson arrives at his home, he sees the limo waiting for him at the Ashford gate. He pulls the Bronco to an abrupt stop at the curb by the Rockingham gate. The sudden braking of the car dislodges the piece of wood that was picked up in the alley; it falls onto the parkway. The Bronco is parked haphazardly, but Simpson either does not notice or does not have time to correct it.

Simpson walks toward the front door, blood dripping from his left hand. He sees limo driver Allan Park ringing the buzzer at the Ashford gate. If it is possible, Simpson becomes even more panicked. Even in the dim light, Simpson thinks the driver recognizes him. After all, he is OJ. Here in the doorway there is at least enough light for Simpson to see the cut on his left hand. This may be the first time he realizes he is cut. He puts the hand into his pocket to keep from dripping more blood.

After seeing the limo driver and his own injury, he does not know what to do. But he realizes that if he walks into the front door, the limo driver will think he is returning from being out. This will ruin whatever alibi he might come up with. Simpson turns toward the garage and runs down the narrow path wihich goes behind the bungalows. He knows the path will ultimately lead him around to the pool area where he can enter his home through the patio door. Running down the dark path, he collides with an air conditioner braced at about chest height. Simpson hits the air conditioner with force and spins clockwise, striking the wall.

Remember KATO testified that walking from Arnells quarters to the back yard was not possible becaues of the growth and the mud.No one have ever tried that.There was also piles of old construction materials back there.

If he had done what you suggest Park would have seen him much later than he claimed he did.

If he did hit the air conditioner as you suggest. what kept him from contrinuing as you suggest he had planned to get to the back yard.Did he knock himself out or pass out or something. or did Furhman tell him to get the hell out of his area:D

Since you seem to be open minded i have a better one than yours.

If oj got inside the rockingham gate all he had to do is walk next to the trees leading to the garage go right over to the breakfast nook window part of the house and walk behind those trees to the front porch and slip right in the front door without ever being seen.Park did not have sight to this area and it was pitch dark.
I am sure oj knew this and would have used it if he had been outside trying to get inside without being seen.But he wasn't.

[tv]

Remember KATO testified that walking from Arnells quarters to the back yard was not possible becaues of the growth and the mud.No one have ever tried that.There was also piles of old construction materials back there.

If he had done what you suggest Park would have seen him much later than he claimed he did.

If he did hit the air conditioner as you suggest. what kept him from contrinuing as you suggest he had planned to get to the back yard.Did he knock himself out or pass out or something. or did Furhman tell him to get the hell out of his area:D

Since you seem to be open minded i have a better one than yours.

If oj got inside the rockingham gate all he had to do is walk next to the trees leading to the garage go right over to the breakfast nook window part of the house and walk behind those trees to the front porch and slip right in the front door without ever being seen.Park did not have sight to this area and it was pitch dark.
I am sure oj knew this and would have used it if he had been outside trying to get inside without being seen.But he wasn't.
Your scenario could work also. My point being that there are many ways it could have happened and many details we'll never know. It's not my scenario but would you like to read what this person thinks happened after he hit the air conditioner?

[martin II]

tv
from the pictures of oj standing next to the airconditioner the air conditioner is above his head.Not at chest height. So he most likely would have missed the air conditoner and made a mess of the leaves on the ground. or He would have had one large face the next day.

[martin II]

Your scenario could work also. My point being that there are many ways it could have happened and many details we'll never know. It's not my scenario but would you like to read what this person thinks happened after he hit the air conditioner?


ok you know i will read anything either post it or pm it.

But when you answer my long standing question you will see it didn't happen.

[tv]

ok you know i will read anything either post it or pm it.

But when you answer my long standing question you will see it didn't happen.

It's not really important that you read it -- I just wanted to show that there are many ways it could have happened and just saying that he didn't jump the fence doesn't mean he didn't commit the crimes.

[bobaugust]

Kato testified that he went to let the limo in after he finished his first cursory search and Park testified that it was within a minute and a half to two minutes after he saw the Black figure enter the house. The question is not when Kato saw the limo for the first time but when Park saw Kato for the first time and Park supplied that answer.:) Park waited thirty seconds to go to the buzzer after seeing the Black figure, Simpson responded almost immediately and it was twenty to thirty seconds after that when Kato buzzed him in. Kato had finished his first cursory search of the area behind his quarters when Park first saw Kato. Least I forget the most important part, Park saw Kato simultaneous to the time he saw the Black figure he thought was Simpson.

The first person Park saw that night was Kato Kaelin.

Park testified he saw Kaelin coming down the path from the back of the house. The flashlight Kaelin was using attracted his attention.

Park testified that almost simultaneously he saw Simpson walk up to the front entrance of his house, enter the front door, and lights came on in the downstairs windows.

Park waited to be left in. No one let him in. Park got out of the limo and rang the intercom. Simpson answered telling him he over slept and would be down shortly.

Park went back to his limo and waited some more.

Kaelin returned to the Ashford gate from his first investigation of the south path where he only went as far as the end of the garage before turning back.

Kaelin opened the gate and let Park in.

Park pulled his limo up to the front entrance.

Kato went to the garage and down the south path for the second time. This time he made it a little further down the south path almost to the second gate before he again turned around and went back to the front of the house. On his return he noticed the dark colored knapsack behind the Bentley.

The time Park first saw Kaelin and then Simpson was established by Park’s telephone records as shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

Nope

The garage is not by the north side of the house and he did not say that. it is at the south side of ojs property . it is at the mouth of the south walkway where the glove was found.

He walked from the ashford area due south pass the front door NO LIGHTS ON to around the garage to the south walkway where the glove was found.

He Turned around and walked back pass the garage and north pass the front door LIGHTS NOW ON up to the Ashford gate North side and opened the gate for PARK.

The north Side of the house is on the Ashford side of the property the opposite side of the property from where the glove was found.
I posted the layout of the property to make is easy to understand the path that Kato took.i can post it again if you need it.

When Park was parked at the Ashford gate, he got out of the limo several times and rang the intercom buzzer without getting any response or seeing anyone. Park said he could see lights on upstairs in the house, and the downstairs appeared to be dark. Park said the outside lighting was not bright; he said he saw a light on in the front entrance by the front door and a light on above the garage.

Two to three minutes after hearing the noises on his back wall Kaelin left his room. He walked past the pool and then down the side of the house on the north path to the driveway; his flashlight attracted Park’s attention and Park saw Kaelin for the first time that night. Kaelin stopped when he got to the driveway and Park saw Simpson walk up to the front entrance, enter his front door, and lights come on in the downstairs windows.

Kaelin said there were little lights on the driveway that were very dim. Kaelin passed the front of Simpson’s house and around the garage to get to the south path. Kaelin said there were lights on upstairs in the house but the downstairs was dark. Kaelin made it only as far as the end of the garage on the path before he turned back and returned to the driveway. Kaelin did not say there was any change in the outside lighting.

bobaugust

[martin II]

It's not really important that you read it -- I just wanted to show that there are many ways it could have happened and just saying that he didn't jump the fence doesn't mean he didn't commit the crimes.

Look at the pictures of oj standing in the walkway.you will see impossible growth and that the air conditioner is beyond where the noise was found and above his head.
I will try to see if i can post the picture for you to see.

[martin II]

When Park was parked at the Ashford gate, he got out of the limo several times and rang the intercom buzzer without getting any response or seeing anyone. Park said he could see lights on upstairs in the house, and the downstairs appeared to be dark. Park said the outside lighting was not bright; he said he saw a light on in the front entrance by the front door and a light on above the garage.

Two to three minutes after hearing the noises on his back wall Kaelin left his room. He walked past the pool and then down the side of the house on the north path to the driveway; his flashlight attracted Park’s attention and Park saw Kaelin for the first time that night. Kaelin stopped when he got to the driveway and Park saw Simpson walk up to the front entrance, enter his front door, and lights come on in the downstairs windows.

Kaelin said there were little lights on the driveway that were very dim. Kaelin passed the front of Simpson’s house and around the garage to get to the south path. Kaelin said there were lights on upstairs in the house but the downstairs was dark. Kaelin made it only as far as the end of the garage on the path before he turned back and returned to the driveway. Kaelin did not say there was any change in the outside lighting.

bobaugust


Kato testified that when he walked pass the front door the LIGHTS WERE NOT ON as he was walking to the south walkway. He testrified that when he walked back from the south walkway and passed the front door the LIGHTS WERE ON.

martin II

[martin II]

It's not really important that you read it -- I just wanted to show that there are many ways it could have happened and just saying that he didn't jump the fence doesn't mean he didn't commit the crimes.

I am saying he did not jump the fence because some say because the glove was found there that means oj jumped the fence.I am pleased that you see other options for how the glove got there if that is what you are saying.

I was more in the dark until last week when i found this timeline analysis study
and found info that i had never known. Especially when they matched up all the events by time and explained the significance of what happened when Kato was in the south Walkway.

We have bits and pieces of various testimony and must refer to each to try to keep up with all of it.Looking at it by time analysis one can tell what happed every place at a certain time.

Example
when park says one time the bronco was not here and the next time he says look i was not looking for a car i was looking for the address.
which do we believe.

When some say Park was looking at the front door 100% of the time and then Park says i was calling Dale or i was calling my mother. or i was getting in my car or getting out of my car or i was ringing the bell etc.
Do we believe he was still looking at the front door 100
% of the time.

[martin II]

Not if remembering the shopping list would help me escape being accused of killing two people.

Thats funny

[tv]

I am saying he did not jump the fence because some say because the glove was found there that means oj jumped the fence.I am pleased that you see other options for how the glove got there if that is what you are saying.

I was more in the dark until last week when i found this timeline analysis study
and found info that i had never known. Especially when they matched up all the events by time and explained the significance of what happened when Kato was in the south Walkway.

We have bits and pieces of various testimony and must refer to each to try to keep up with all of it.Looking at it by time analysis one can tell what happed every place at a certain time.

Example
when park says one time the bronco was not here and the next time he says look i was not looking for a car i was looking for the address.
which do we believe.

When some say Park was looking at the front door 100% of the time and then Park says i was calling Dale or i was calling my mother. or i was getting in my car or getting out of my car or i was ringing the bell etc.
Do we believe he was still looking at the front door 100
% of the time.

That's how I feel about OJ Simpson saying he was sleeping, showering, chipping golf balls or walking Chachi. Which was it? I don't believe that Park said he was doing all those things at the same time. We know what times he made the phone calls and we know he didn't make them all at the same moment.

[martin II]

he probably was worried about someone finding the bodies before he could get out of town BUT the fact remains he left his valued possessions and treasures -- not to mention his daughter -- to be protected by the guy he had to remind to turn the jacuzzi off.

i don't think the jacuzzi was a big deal.oj just wanted to remind kato to turn it off after use. OJ had left kato at the house many times before.As a matter of fact kato was there when oj was in ny a day or two before 6/12.

[bobaugust]

HE dubunked Petricillis idea that someone could jump from the roof of the salangers garage or come through the growth.

No one ever claimed Simpson may have jumped from the roof of the Salinger’s car port. Wagner’s opinion about the heavy growth being impenetrable was proved wrong when Dennis Fung testified that Mark Fuhrman walked through the heavy growth to collect the small blue wrapper stuck to the Salinger’s side of the fence just opposite where the glove was found. Pictures taken from the video tape Simpson made later after the foliage had been trimmed back revealing the bent wires on the top of the fence clearly showed no large trees on the Salinger’s property that would impede anyone from getting to the fence where the glove was found.

bobaugust

[William Anthony]

The first person Park saw that night was Kato Kaelin.

Park testified he saw Kaelin coming down the path from the back of the house. The flashlight Kaelin was using attracted his attention.

Park testified that almost simultaneously he saw Simpson walk up to the front entrance of his house, enter the front door, and lights came on in the downstairs windows.

Park waited to be left in. No one let him in. Park got out of the limo and rang the intercom. Simpson answered telling him he over slept and would be down shortly.

Park went back to his limo and waited some more.

Kaelin returned to the Ashford gate from his first investigation of the south path where he only went as far as the end of the garage before turning back.

Kaelin opened the gate and let Park in.

Park pulled his limo up to the front entrance.

Kato went to the garage and down the south path for the second time. This time he made it a little further down the south path almost to the second gate before he again turned around and went back to the front of the house. On his return he noticed the dark colored knapsack behind the Bentley.

The time Park first saw Kaelin and then Simpson was established by Park’s telephone records as shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

No one is arguing the time Park saw Kato. The point is that at the time Park saw Kato he had finished his first cursory search and Park only waited twenty to thirty seconds after he spoke to Simpson for Kato to let him in and Park testified he waited another thirty seconds after which he time he went to ring the buzzer and Simpson answered immediately. I know how you hate math but thirty seconds, plus thirty second plus thirty second equals one minute and a half. Kato testified he finished his first cursory search and walked to where Park saw him contemplated letting Park in and then went to let him in. So let's subtract, starting with ten fifty four and take away a minute and a half we now how approximately ten fifty two from that we subtract two minutes, the time it took Kato to get the flashlight and walk the path to near the Ashford gate where he saw park and Park did not see him, and you have approximately ten fifty, the time Kato testified that he saw the limo. Subtracting those two minutes from ten fifty you now have ten forty eight and subtracting the two to three minutes that Kato waited after hearing the thumps to get ready to do the search you have ten forty five to ten forty six, the time Park was on the phone with his mother. You therefore see that Park could have only have seen Kato, as kato testified, after he had finished his first cursory search. If you say that Park saw kato and Simpson at the same time and then Kato did the first cursory search and returned back then you have Kato walking down the driveway to the south parkway and doing a cursory search, backing out and walking back up to the spot standing there as Park testified and walking to the gate and buzzing him in all within a minute and a half. You may still believe you are correct but I will say that a reasonable inference from all the testimony and the phone records is consistent with my view and, therefore, there is reasonable doubt.

[bobaugust]

Kato testified that when he walked pass the front door the LIGHTS WERE NOT ON as he was walking to the south walkway. He testrified that when he walked back from the south walkway and passed the front door the LIGHTS WERE ON.

martin II

No I don’t believe Kaelin ever said any such thing but if you think he did post the testimony please.

bobaugust

[martin II]

That's how I feel about OJ Simpson saying he was sleeping, showering, chipping golf balls or walking Chachi. Which was it? I don't believe that Park said he was doing all those things at the same time. We know what times he made the phone calls and we know he didn't make them all at the same moment.

he could not do them all at the same time but he said he called dave then his nother then dale and then received a call fron dale and that he was buzzing the bell betweem.

now lets look at oj.

he chipped balls as golfers do at every small chance.some times they practice chipping even with a stick if a club is not handy.Kato said oj often chipped balls in the yard.

he took a nap.makes sense because kato told him he looked tired and oj agreed. He got up and took a shower. makes sense as most people planning a trip would do this to be fresh.

Park could do those things but not looking at the door 100% of the time.
even if one believes he is a good truthful guy.

oj could do his things without either one being unusual because he is addicted to golf as all golfers are and he was going on a trip.

[martin II]

No I don’t believe Kaelin ever said any such thing but if you think he did post the testimony please.

bobaugust

bob
i have posted this 3-4 times look for his testimony.

[tv]

he could not do them all at the same time but he said he called dave then his nother then dale and then received a call fron dale and that he was buzzing the bell betweem.

now lets look at oj.

he chipped balls as golfers do at every small chance.some times they practice chipping even with a stick if a club is not handy.Kato said oj often chipped balls in the yard.

he took a nap.makes sense because kato told him he looked tired and oj agreed. He got up and took a shower. makes sense as most people planning a trip would do this to be fresh.

Park could do those things but not looking at the door 100% of the time.
even if one believes he is a good truthful guy.

oj could do his things without either one being unusual because he is addicted to golf as all golfers are and he was going on a trip.martin, you're misstating what OJ Simpson said he was doing at the time of the murders. He gave these answers to different people at different times. He didn't say he hit golf balls, then showered, then napped etc. He gave these excuses as his alibi at different times. In other words he kept changing his alibi.

[William Anthony]

martin, you're misstating what OJ Simpson said he was doing at the time of the murders. He gave these answers to different people at different times. He didn't say he hit golf balls, then showered, then napped etc. He gave these excuses as his alibi at different times. In other words he kept changing his alibi.

What were you doing last year on this date at this time?

[weezer]

you ever left your house to go shoppping got to your destination and realized you left your shopping list at home.

hmm - sure. But I didn't leave the house unlocked --

[bobaugust]

No one is arguing the time Park saw Kato. The point is that at the time Park saw Kato he had finished his first cursory search and Park only waited twenty to thirty seconds after he spoke to Simpson for Kato to let him in and Park testified he waited another thirty seconds after which he time he went to ring the buzzer and Simpson answered immediately. I know how you hate math but thirty seconds, plus thirty second plus thirty second equals one minute and a half. Kato testified he finished his first cursory search and walked to where Park saw him contemplated letting Park in and then went to let him in. So let's subtract, starting with ten fifty four and take away a minute and a half we now how approximately ten fifty two from that we subtract two minutes, the time it took Kato to get the flashlight and walk the path to near the Ashford gate where he saw park and Park did not see him, and you have approximately ten fifty, the time Kato testified that he saw the limo. Subtracting those two minutes from ten fifty you now have ten forty eight and subtracting the two to three minutes that Kato waited after hearing the thumps to get ready to do the search you have ten forty five to ten forty six, the time Park was on the phone with his mother. You therefore see that Park could have only have seen Kato, as kato testified, after he had finished his first cursory search. If you say that Park saw kato and Simpson at the same time and then Kato did the first cursory search and returned back then you have Kato walking down the driveway to the south parkway and doing a cursory search, backing out and walking back up to the spot standing there as Park testified and walking to the gate and buzzing him in all within a minute and a half. You may still believe you are correct but I will say that a reasonable inference from all the testimony and the phone records is consistent with my view and, therefore, there is reasonable doubt.

William, what you’re doing is relying on Kaelin’s guess as an actual time. Kaelin never looked at a clock. Kaelin’s guess was wrong. Park only estimated his waiting time, he also didn’t look at a clock after he saw Kaelin. From the time Park saw Simpson enter his house and the lights come on Park waited a while. Kaelin had continued on to the south path, he didn’t let Park in and Simpson didn’t let Park in. After a short time of waiting Park got out of the car and rang the intercom again. This time Simpson answered and they had a conversation. After their conversation Park went back to his car and waited some more time to be let in. It may have seemed like only thirty seconds and thirty seconds to Park but the total time that past from when he first saw Kaelin to when Kaelin went to the south path, walked a very short distance down the path, and then returned was probably closer to a couple of minutes or maybe a little more.

The fact is that Park testified he first saw Kaelin when Kaelin came down the north path from the back of the house and then Park saw Simpson enter his house. It is impossible for Kaelin to have been coming back from the south path and be seen on the north path unless Kaelin had walked the entire south path to the end of the property and then walked back past the front of the guest house, past the pool, and then down the north path. That didn’t happen.

Isn’t it more reasonable to rely on facts then guesses to create reasonable doubt? The fact is that Kaelin could not have been on the north path where Park clearly testified he saw him for the first time, if Kaelin had been returning from the south path.

Park testified he first saw Kaelin and then Simpson right before he ended his phone call to Dale. The reason he called Dale was because he had been trying to get someone to respond to his gate ringing for twenty minutes and no was answering and he didn’t see anyone. When he did see Kaelin and Simpson he finished his conversation and hung up. Park’s telephone records document that time as 10:55 and 12 seconds. Park estimated it was within the last 10 to 30 seconds of that phone call when he saw Simpson enter his front door. That’s how we arrive at the time Park saw Kaelin and Simpson as shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

No I don’t believe Kaelin ever said any such thing but if you think he did post the testimony please.

bobaugust

I don’t recall any testimony in the criminal trial where Kaelin testified that the front entry light was not on when he went made his first trip to the south path. If you have posted testimony of Kaelin saying that then post it again or post the message number and page you posted it on, please. Be sure and include the date.

bobaugust

[martin II]

No I don’t believe Kaelin ever said any such thing but if you think he did post the testimony please.

bobaugust

Petrocelli: And these lights that are being called coach lights that were outside the front door, left and right of the door --
Kaelin: I recollect those being off.
Petrocelli: Now, do you recollect those being off as you went by the door the first time to investigate?
Kaelin: Yes
-------------------



. So on your way back to letting the limousine in, did you notice if any of the downstairs interior lights had been turned on?
Kaelin: I thought the lights were on. I thought then lights were on.
Petrocelli: And did you also think that the downstairs coach lights on the outside of the entryway door were on?
Kaelin: I think so. I think they were on.

[martin II]

I don’t recall any testimony in the criminal trial where Kaelin testified that the front entry light was not on when he went made his first trip to the south path. If you have posted testimony of Kaelin saying that then post it again or post the message number and page you posted it on, please. Be sure and include the date.

bobaugust

Bob
I think you know i never said Katos testimony was in the criminal trial. It does not matter if he testitified criminal or civil as long as he did.

[martin II]

hmm - sure. But I didn't leave the house unlocked --

I believe you as there is no margin of error when you are involved.I do strive to be perfect but have not reached it as yet.:beer:

[martin II]

I don’t recall any testimony in the criminal trial where Kaelin testified that the front entry light was not on when he went made his first trip to the south path. If you have posted testimony of Kaelin saying that then post it again or post the message number and page you posted it on, please. Be sure and include the date.

bobaugust

bob
you are posting to yourself.maby wanted to alter your previous post haha

[martin II]

martin, you're misstating what OJ Simpson said he was doing at the time of the murders. He gave these answers to different people at different times. He didn't say he hit golf balls, then showered, then napped etc. He gave these excuses as his alibi at different times. In other words he kept changing his alibi.

if i had not rehearsed my answers i would have answered as i remembered at the time especially if i hasd done all of them. But non seen odd or not believable considering he was a golf addict needed a rest and then a shower
from chipping. He could have just said listening to music.Or meditating. we also know he made some phone calls. so there was not that much time to account for.

[bobaugust]

Petrocelli: And these lights that are being called coach lights that were outside the front door, left and right of the door --
Kaelin: I recollect those being off.
Petrocelli: Now, do you recollect those being off as you went by the door the first time to investigate?
Kaelin: Yes
-------------------



. So on your way back to letting the limousine in, did you notice if any of the downstairs interior lights had been turned on?
Kaelin: I thought the lights were on. I thought then lights were on.
Petrocelli: And did you also think that the downstairs coach lights on the outside of the entryway door were on?
Kaelin: I think so. I think they were on.

Thank you. I see, testimony from the civil trial. The fact is that Park consistently testified that the front entry lights were on when he arrived at Rockingham. If Kaelin’s civil trial recollection is correct that could mean that Simpson turned the coach lights on after Park saw Simpson enter the house although Park never said he saw any other lights go on except in the downstairs windows.

Interesting, but it doesn’t change the fact that Park first saw Kaelin on the north path coming from the back of the house and then Simpson enter his house shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

bob
you are posting to yourself.maby wanted to alter your previous post haha

No, my mistake, I was responding to your post when you said,

“bob
i have posted this 3-4 times look for his testimony.”

[William Anthony]

William, what you’re doing is relying on Kaelin’s guess as an actual time. Kaelin never looked at a clock. Kaelin’s guess was wrong. Park only estimated his waiting time, he also didn’t look at a clock after he saw Kaelin. From the time Park saw Simpson enter his house and the lights come on Park waited a while. Kaelin had continued on to the south path, he didn’t let Park in and Simpson didn’t let Park in. After a short time of waiting Park got out of the car and rang the intercom again. This time Simpson answered and they had a conversation. After their conversation Park went back to his car and waited some more time to be let in. It may have seemed like only thirty seconds and thirty seconds to Park but the total time that past from when he first saw Kaelin to when Kaelin went to the south path, walked a very short distance down the path, and then returned was probably closer to a couple of minutes or maybe a little more.

The fact is that Park testified he first saw Kaelin when Kaelin came down the north path from the back of the house and then Park saw Simpson enter his house. It is impossible for Kaelin to have been coming back from the south path and be seen on the north path unless Kaelin had walked the entire south path to the end of the property and then walked back past the front of the guest house, past the pool, and then down the north path. That didn’t happen.

Isn’t it more reasonable to rely on facts then guesses to create reasonable doubt? The fact is that Kaelin could not have been on the north path where Park clearly testified he saw him for the first time, if Kaelin had been returning from the south path.

Park testified he first saw Kaelin and then Simpson right before he ended his phone call to Dale. The reason he called Dale was because he had been trying to get someone to respond to his gate ringing for twenty minutes and no was answering and he didn’t see anyone. When he did see Kaelin and Simpson he finished his conversation and hung up. Park’s telephone records document that time as 10:55 and 12 seconds. Park estimated it was within the last 10 to 30 seconds of that phone call when he saw Simpson enter his front door. That’s how we arrive at the time Park saw Kaelin and Simpson as shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

I see that you want to credit Parks estimates when it suits you and then discredit them when it doesn't and discredit Kato's all the time. :) The fact is that Kato testified that he let Park in after he finished his first cursory search and Park testified that he saw someone he thought was Simpson at nearly the same time he saw Kato and from that point Kato buzzed him in. Where Park saw Kato standing is what counts as he testified to. He may have thought he saw Kato coming from behind the house but from the testimony and the phone records we see that is impossible. I am not going to suggest anything untoward but both Kato and Park met with the prosecution several times before testifying in the trial. However, there are always tells in the details. When two plausible theories exist and one points toward innocence and the other toward guilt, you must accept the one that points toward innocence-reasonable doubt. Ms. Shively would have destroyed the prosecution's theory that Simpson dropped the glove at that time. Therefore, don't use her, just as they chose not to use Martz. You persistently say that I am wrong but I do not have to say you are wrong; I simply point to a reasonable inference to be drawn from the evidence to opine that there was reasonable doubt. You see I don't have to say you are or prove you wrong, because I don't have to be right as I am not trying to prove Simpson guilty or innocent.:)

[William Anthony]

Thank you. I see, testimony from the civil trial. The fact is that Park consistently testified that the front entry lights were on when he arrived at Rockingham. If Kaelin’s civil trial recollection is correct that could mean that Simpson turned the coach lights on after Park saw Simpson enter the house although Park never said he saw any other lights go on except in the downstairs windows.

Interesting, but it doesn’t change the fact that Park first saw Kaelin on the north path coming from the back of the house and then Simpson enter his house shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

The logical inference from the phone records and the testimony is that Park assumed that is where Kato was coming from, be it suggested to him or just an independent assumption on his part. The tell in his testimony is when he says where he saw Kato standing. Kato never testified that he stood anywhere. However, a logical inference can be drawn is that he did, contemplating whether to let the limo in, before he gestured to Park as he continued to go to the place to buzz the limo in. Reasonable doubt.

[martin II]

Thank you. I see, testimony from the civil trial. The fact is that Park consistently testified that the front entry lights were on when he arrived at Rockingham. If Kaelin’s civil trial recollection is correct that could mean that Simpson turned the coach lights on after Park saw Simpson enter the house although Park never said he saw any other lights go on except in the downstairs windows.

Interesting, but it doesn’t change the fact that Park first saw Kaelin on the north path coming from the back of the house and then Simpson enter his house shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

BOB

Park was inside his limo outside the Ashford gate.limited vision.
Kato was at the front door of the house, very good vision.

This means that Kato was in the south walkway investigating the noise when the lights were truned on by oj.

Park said he saw Kato and the AA at the same time. When he saw the AA go inside the lights came on immediately, Kato was in the south walkway investingating.

[martin II]

The logical inference from the phone records and the testimony is that Park assumed that is where Kato was coming from, be it suggested to him or just an independent assumption on his part. The tell in his testimony is when he says where he saw Kato standing. Kato never testified that he stood anywhere. However, a logical inference can be drawn is that he did, contemplating whether to let the limo in, before he gestured to Park as he continued to go to the place to buzz the limo in. Reasonable doubt.

Remember Park had a history of transfering information he had learned before he testified from media accounts and da prompting which he incorporated into his testimony as fact when it was not. For this reason i question his testimony and memory.

[martin II]

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/mc71111/ojwall-1.jpg


TV
please see tall and thick hedges and note heigh of air conditioner in the rear.

[tv]

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/mc71111/ojwall-1.jpg


TV
please see tall and thick hedges and note heigh of air conditioner in the rear.

I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be but I don't see the air conditioner. Isn't there another picture I remember seeing that was close up of him standing by the fence?

[martin II]

I admit my eyesight isn't what it used to be but I don't see the air conditioner. Isn't there another picture I remember seeing that was close up of him standing by the fence?

There is a white box like item at the far end of the wall, i will try for another picture. i think oj is standing about where the glove was found.my point is the growth is very thick and taller than oj.This was taken after oj was released from jail but i think the growth may have been more in the summer.
let me try to get another close up of the air conditioner.

[martin II]

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/mc71111/s_walk18_small.jpg


Same area another picture
I saw another one showing a reporter but air conditioner is in distance but also above his head

It does not look like anyone anyone could jump through that growth.Look at ojs head and go straight down the wall to that white looking image.

[tv]

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo22/mc71111/s_walk18_small.jpg


Same area another picture
I saw another one showing a reporter but air conditioner is in distance but also above his head

It does not look like anyone anyone could jump through that growth.Look at ojs head and go straight down the wall to that white looking image.

Mark Fuhrman did it, remember? By the way, thanks for the pictures, martin. :)

[martin II]

Mark Fuhrman did it, remember? By the way, thanks for the pictures, martin. :)

i have seen a closeup of the air conditioner someplace. i will try to find it later tonight.

[GreenIce]

I apologize, I missed this post.

Is "CR" Christian Reichardt? What do you mean when you say "she was in horrific shape"? Do you mean as a result of having done drugs?

Kate

She was still suffering through withdrawl on that Saturday. He saw her and she was not doing well.

[martin II]

William, what you’re doing is relying on Kaelin’s guess as an actual time. Kaelin never looked at a clock. Kaelin’s guess was wrong. Park only estimated his waiting time, he also didn’t look at a clock after he saw Kaelin. From the time Park saw Simpson enter his house and the lights come on Park waited a while. Kaelin had continued on to the south path, he didn’t let Park in and Simpson didn’t let Park in. After a short time of waiting Park got out of the car and rang the intercom again. This time Simpson answered and they had a conversation. After their conversation Park went back to his car and waited some more time to be let in. It may have seemed like only thirty seconds and thirty seconds to Park but the total time that past from when he first saw Kaelin to when Kaelin went to the south path, walked a very short distance down the path, and then returned was probably closer to a couple of minutes or maybe a little more.

The fact is that Park testified he first saw Kaelin when Kaelin came down the north path from the back of the house and then Park saw Simpson enter his house. It is impossible for Kaelin to have been coming back from the south path and be seen on the north path unless Kaelin had walked the entire south path to the end of the property and then walked back past the front of the guest house, past the pool, and then down the north path. That didn’t happen.

Isn’t it more reasonable to rely on facts then guesses to create reasonable doubt? The fact is that Kaelin could not have been on the north path where Park clearly testified he saw him for the first time, if Kaelin had been returning from the south path.

Park testified he first saw Kaelin and then Simpson right before he ended his phone call to Dale. The reason he called Dale was because he had been trying to get someone to respond to his gate ringing for twenty minutes and no was answering and he didn’t see anyone. When he did see Kaelin and Simpson he finished his conversation and hung up. Park’s telephone records document that time as 10:55 and 12 seconds. Park estimated it was within the last 10 to 30 seconds of that phone call when he saw Simpson enter his front door. That’s how we arrive at the time Park saw Kaelin and Simpson as shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

my opinion is that Parks testimony about when he first saw Kato is faulty.
i think he was prompted to make this claim or he was mixed up on this issue,

if he says he saw Kato after Katos first search then the prosecution is in trouble because it goes to prove when Kato heard the noise,If he says he saw Kato before that solves the prosecutions problem.
i think he saw the AA when he was on the phone with Dale but not Kato. His response to dale when he saw the AA was all relative to seeing the AA not kATO. He saw the AA saw the lights go on and said someone home.He said nothing that would lead one to think he had seen Kato.He didn't tell dale i see a white man. or i just saw two people or isee a person by the gate maby he will let me in zip about Kato.That i find just too strange to believe.

[martin II]

She was still suffering through withdrawl on that Saturday. He saw her and she was not doing well.

She had been freebasing for weeks or months so i bet she was not doing well and was pissed at him for putting her in that place.

[bobaugust]

I see that you want to credit Parks estimates when it suits you and then discredit them when it doesn't and discredit Kato's all the time. :) The fact is that Kato testified that he let Park in after he finished his first cursory search and Park testified that he saw someone he thought was Simpson at nearly the same time he saw Kato and from that point Kato buzzed him in. Where Park saw Kato standing is what counts as he testified to. He may have thought he saw Kato coming from behind the house but from the testimony and the phone records we see that is impossible. I am not going to suggest anything untoward but both Kato and Park met with the prosecution several times before testifying in the trial. However, there are always tells in the details. When two plausible theories exist and one points toward innocence and the other toward guilt, you must accept the one that points toward innocence-reasonable doubt. Ms. Shively would have destroyed the prosecution's theory that Simpson dropped the glove at that time. Therefore, don't use her, just as they chose not to use Martz. You persistently say that I am wrong but I do not have to say you are wrong; I simply point to a reasonable inference to be drawn from the evidence to opine that there was reasonable doubt. You see I don't have to say you are or prove you wrong, because I don't have to be right as I am not trying to prove Simpson guilty or innocent.:)

There is a big difference between someone estimating how much time past such as seconds or minutes and someone tying to guess the time of day something happened without ever having looked at a clock or using a reliable reference.

I believed both Kaelin and Park as to what they remember happening. I just do not rely on estimations and guesses as to what time it was. You are the one ignoring what both of these witnesses testified to and making up your own version of what you think happened. That’s why your version is unsupported and wrong.

Park testified he saw Kaelin come down the north path from the back of the house and when Kaelin got to the driveway he saw Simpson walk up and enter his front door,

Kaelin testified he came down the north path two to three minutes after he heard the noises but did not let Park in the gate until he returned to from his first short trip to the south path. By the time Kaelin returned from that trip and opened the gate for Park, Simpson was in his house having already talked to Park over the intercom for the first time.

Your version contradicts where Park said Kaelin was when he first saw him. You have Kaelin retuning from the south path and then having Park see Kaelin and Simpson at the same time. That’s WRONG and impossible to have happened. If you were even remotely aware of the Rockingham estate layout you would realize this. If it happened the way you envision it Kaelin would have run right into Simpson since both of them would have been on the front driveway or at the very least they would have seen each other. That never happened.

Park’s phone records support his testimony and definitively establish the time of shortly before 10:55 Park first saw Kaelin to his left having come down the north path and stop at the driveway and Park saw Simpson in front of him walk up and enter his front door. Kaelin was coming from his room after hearing the noises on his back wall and Simpson was coming from behind Kaelin’s room after making those noises. They both made it around the house in about the same amount of time each going their own way.

Your version does not create reasonable doubt because it is contradicted by the testimony and the facts in this case.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

The logical inference from the phone records and the testimony is that Park assumed that is where Kato was coming from, be it suggested to him or just an independent assumption on his part. The tell in his testimony is when he says where he saw Kato standing. Kato never testified that he stood anywhere. However, a logical inference can be drawn is that he did, contemplating whether to let the limo in, before he gestured to Park as he continued to go to the place to buzz the limo in. Reasonable doubt.

I disagree. A logical inference is based on facts such as Park’s telephone records and Park’s testimony to infer that Park saw Kaelin shortly after Kaelin heard the noises and left his room to go to the south path. No one ever asked Kaelin if or why he stopped there. Kaelin may have simply paused there considering if he should let the limo in. He decided not to saying that he thought Simpson would do it and then continued on his way.

What you are evidently relying on William to create so called reasonable doubt are incorrect facts and your imagination while you ignore what Allan Park testified to. I don’t believe that creates reasonable doubt, all it creates is an incorrect opinion. All because you evidently refuse to look at or understand the layout of the Rockingham estate.

bobaugust

[bobaugust]

BOB

Park was inside his limo outside the Ashford gate.limited vision.
Kato was at the front door of the house, very good vision.

This means that Kato was in the south walkway investigating the noise when the lights were truned on by oj.

Park said he saw Kato and the AA at the same time. When he saw the AA go inside the lights came on immediately, Kato was in the south walkway investingating.

Maybe Kaelin was on the south path when and if Simpson turned on the coach lights or maybe Kaelin was approaching the first gate on the other side of the garage. So what? That doesn’t change the fact that Kaelin had already been seen for the first time by Park when Kaelin came down the north path after leaving his room and Simpson had been seen by Park when Simpson entered his house shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

[tv]

She had been freebasing for weeks or months so i bet she was not doing well and was pissed at him for putting her in that place.
She had asked Nicole to intervene if she got too involved with drugs again so why would she be mad at receiving help? I'm sure they didn't put her there against her will. If she wasn't ordered into rehab by the courts then it must have been voluntary. There's no need for an intervention if the person has no choice.

[GreenIce]

I think we have learned by now the odd dynamic with the Brown family and OJ Simpson. It has been said that the Brown family had never been supportive of Nicole's choices to leave OJ; I assume the reason to be that they all depended on him financially and did not want to lose their lifestyle they had been accustomed to for so many years.

In video after the recital we see OJ embracing Nicole's family while Nicole herself does not interact with him. I believe that it was only Nicole that did not want him present at dinner, while the Brown's clearly wanted to remain cordial at the very least.

Kate

Kate,

And I mean no disrespect but you know, we don't the dynamics of the Browns relationship with Simpson or if, if in his position it was all that weird. As far as I now, only one "friend" has said that this was the case.

There is no evidence to support that the Browns loved their lifestyle more then they loved their daughter. If this was the case, then Nicole never would have asked for the separation. She would have put up with all the affairs and suffered in silence. Nicole does not strike me as one to do that.

It is very, very difficult when you have been married for years and years and you have children and then get a divorce. Are you suppose to hate your in laws now and they hate you? OJ sharing his wealth with his family and friends is not uncommon for someone in his position. As for Nicole's parents letting her date him because he was much older then her, well Nicole was raised European. They don't have the same age hang ups as some people do over here.

I truly dont' recall any other of Nicole's friends saying the Browns wanted Nicole to stay with OJ because of the money.

[GreenIce]

She had asked Nicole to intervene if she got too involved with drugs again so why would she be mad at receiving help? I'm sure they didn't put her there against her will. If she wasn't ordered into rehab by the courts then it must have been voluntary. There's no need for an intervention if the person has no choice.

TV,

In all seriousness, do you really think Faye would have told Nicole to be her babysitter when it came to drugs? Faye to this day, denies she had a problem, that she was doing only $30.00s a day.

If Faye is telling the truth, then she would not have fought against going in to rehab, there would have been no need for an intervention. To be honest, if she was so aware of her drug problem, then she would have realized that when she craved more then pain medication for surgery, she was headed down that various dangerous path. A path that had her out cold while her young daughter was stranded alone with her.

Do I think Faye did this on purpose, no! Absolutely not! But don't you think this would have been the ultimate wake up call? Faye wants to have it both ways, yes, she is an addict but not not a real bad one. Yes she knew that should slip back into it but she had her buddy, who also enjoyed the occassional high, to watch her back?

Does that really make sense to you?

[martin II]

She had asked Nicole to intervene if she got too involved with drugs again so why would she be mad at receiving help? I'm sure they didn't put her there against her will. If she wasn't ordered into rehab by the courts then it must have been voluntary. There's no need for an intervention if the person has no choice.

It was posted that CR had forced her to go in.Not physically but pressured her with words. Almost all active addicts are not pleased with being cut off from their drug of choice. Obviously she agreed to go in but not too happy
that getting high had come to a end. She like most would not be pleased at the situation she found herself. It is not a plesant thought for a attractive high end lady like faye to be in a rehab with regular street addicts.

[GreenIce]

Clark apparently assumed the obvious would be obvious and failed to do a thorough recreation. Kato's verbal description of the what happened and his concern about what he heard and felt was enough to convince me that something or someone heavy had hit the back wall of his room that night. In the light of day, when a 200 lb tester can see what he's going to have to slam his body into to make the noise and cause the picture on the wall to move realizes its probably gonna hurt, I can imagine deciding that Kato's verbal description of what happened is going to be enough. I wouldn't ask someone to possibly hurt themselves simply to prove what seems at the time to be an obvious conclusion.

Serpentafall,

That is the problem that the DA's had with the evidence in this case--it should have been obvious to at least one of hundreds of people on the state's side to do this demonstration and yet, it appears that one was not done.

Isn't it fair to ask the detectives how do you think the glove got back there? No broken vegitation, no stucci (sp) off the wall, not a mark on the wall, not a blood drop. No evidence of someone running back there. How could they present the glove with no back up trace evidence.

It is a fair question about Simpson's blood being found on the glove. However, where and the amount of blood found on the glove was consistent with it being accidentially spilled when Collin Y. did his testing. Now, even if you don't consider that, you have to ask yourself, if they were willing to move the glove from one crime scene to another, what else would they do to protect their case?

[GreenIce]

Maybe Kaelin was on the south path when and if Simpson turned on the coach lights or maybe Kaelin was approaching the first gate on the other side of the garage. So what? That doesn’t change the fact that Kaelin had already been seen for the first time by Park when Kaelin came down the north path after leaving his room and Simpson had been seen by Park when Simpson entered his house shortly before 10:55.

bobaugust

Mr. August,

What is the scientific evidence that Ron and/or Nicole were in fact dead before Park saw either the AA or Kato? Where is the proof they were dead before Simpson even left the ground in LA?

[tv]

It was posted that CR had forced her to go in.Not physically but pressured her with words. Almost all active addicts are not pleased with being cut off from their drug of choice. Obviously she agreed to go in but not too happy
that getting high had come to a end. She like most would not be pleased at the situation she found herself. It is not a plesant thought for a attractive high end lady like faye to be in a rehab with regular street addicts.

Being pressured is not the same thing as involuntary committment. You can try to put yourself in her mind and know what she was thinking but you don't know. I don't know if she discussed this in her book or not but I think she's the only one that knows how she felt about it.

[martin II]

TV,

In all seriousness, do you really think Faye would have told Nicole to be her babysitter when it came to drugs? Faye to this day, denies she had a problem, that she was doing only $30.00s a day.

If Faye is telling the truth, then she would not have fought against going in to rehab, there would have been no need for an intervention. To be honest, if she was so aware of her drug problem, then she would have realized that when she craved more then pain medication for surgery, she was headed down that various dangerous path. A path that had her out cold while her young daughter was stranded alone with her.

Do I think Faye did this on purpose, no! Absolutely not! But don't you think this would have been the ultimate wake up call? Faye wants to have it both ways, yes, she is an addict but not not a real bad one. Yes she knew that should slip back into it but she had her buddy, who also enjoyed the occassional high, to watch her back?

Does that really make sense to you?

Faye freebassing, a highhly addicting drug, is freebasing at nicoles and tells her if you see me acting out or doing too much stop me.nonsense. CR had let her go because of drug use why didn't she stop then.She moved to nicoles and brought her habit with her. When nicole told her she had to go get help she asked nicole to put it off for a few days. It seems that it was when CR told her go or you will receive no more help from me she realized she was at her end. There is no such thing as freebasing a little and not getting into trouble. no one ask for addiction everyone thinks they can stop on their own.
Faye must have realized she was out of control when she found herself smoking several times a day everyday.

[GreenIce]

That's how I feel about OJ Simpson saying he was sleeping, showering, chipping golf balls or walking Chachi. Which was it? I don't believe that Park said he was doing all those things at the same time. We know what times he made the phone calls and we know he didn't make them all at the same moment.

TV,

Would it have been impossible for Simpson to have done all the things he said he did? If he was able to give concise accounts of time with each activity, wouldn't that be a clear indicator of guilt? He had it all set up and could "prove" every activity he did. IMO, Simpson said what I think were normal responses. He is giving a list of things he did and tried really only gave estimates of the time.

I think it is unfair that every other time line witness is given "normal" memory lapses or recall because none of them had any reason to remember what they did or said at the exact time they did it. However, this is not extended to Simpson and quite frankly, he was able to give a play by play, I would have had major issues with that.

[martin II]

Being pressured is not the same thing as involuntary committment. You can try to put yourself in her mind and know what she was thinking but you don't know. I don't know if she discussed this in her book or not but I think she's the only one that knows how she felt about it.

tv
do you believe that faye was pleased about being in rehab?If she was then good for her.Then there was no reason for CR to pressure her to go.She would have just asked nicole to drive her to the rehab. She would have to agree herself to sign her self to a lockdown as she would be agreeing to stay the term.But maby CR pressured her to agree to do that.

[GreenIce]

Being pressured is not the same thing as involuntary committment. You can try to put yourself in her mind and know what she was thinking but you don't know. I don't know if she discussed this in her book or not but I think she's the only one that knows how she felt about it.

TV,

Have you read her book?

BTW, Kris and Bruce Jenner were at the intervention as well as her ex husband, her daughter's adoptive father----what did they say in their desposition about Faye's drug problem?

Just like some feel that Jason Simpson has reason to lean his testimony toward his father, isn't it only fair that Faye would "lean" her comments to her favor?

IMO, while it is common that addicts do slip back, however, Faye's insistence that she had her problem under control and did not need rehab tells me that she knows exactly how to protray her addiction where she does not lose credibility.

[martin II]

Serpentafall,

That is the problem that the DA's had with the evidence in this case--it should have been obvious to at least one of hundreds of people on the state's side to do this demonstration and yet, it appears that one was not done.

Isn't it fair to ask the detectives how do you think the glove got back there? No broken vegitation, no stucci (sp) off the wall, not a mark on the wall, not a blood drop. No evidence of someone running back there. How could they present the glove with no back up trace evidence.

It is a fair question about Simpson's blood being found on the glove. However, where and the amount of blood found on the glove was consistent with it being accidentially spilled when Collin Y. did his testing. Now, even if you don't consider that, you have to ask yourself, if they were willing to move the glove from one crime scene to another, what else would they do to protect their case?

Wagner did a experiemtnt on the wall
He had 2-3 very large men bang against Katos outside wall.Guess what. The picture never moved.

[martin II]

TV,

Have you read her book?

BTW, Kris and Bruce Jenner were at the intervention as well as her ex husband, her daughter's adoptive father----what did they say in their desposition about Faye's drug problem?

Just like some feel that Jason Simpson has reason to lean his testimony toward his father, isn't it only fair that Faye would "lean" her comments to her favor?

IMO, while it is common that addicts do slip back, however, Faye's insistence that she had her problem under control and did not need rehab tells me that she knows exactly how to protray her addiction where she does not lose credibility.

Her testimony was self serving as she said she only smoked $20.00 a day.Anyone that knows anything about freebasing knows that is a lie. It would be more like $300 $500 or more per day

She also had a ton of creative lies about oj.
In the end she was the good lady and everone else was the devil.

[GreenIce]

martin, if the glove had been planted the walkway would have been a stupid place to plant it. It would make more sense to leave it by the Bronco or even in the house or just throw it somewhere in the yard. Besides that, Mark Fuhrman, the one you think planted the glove, had no idea where OJ Simpson might be. For all he knew Simpson had been out of the country for days or weeks. It makes much more sense that a panicked OJ Simpson dropped the glove when he reentered his property.

TV,

You forget the superior attitudes and detectives have when it comes to the evidence. How long do you think it takes a cop to find out that only a judge with a career death wish will throw out evidence no matter how questionable the circumstances are? Do you really think the judge believed the detectives when they said the only reason why they went to Rockingham was to tell Simpson in person?

You also forget MF's comments on the tape about the glove---he knew nothing mattered only that the glove was found on his estate. He knew Kato only heard the thumps and did not see anything.

The fact that Fuhrman asked permission to inspect the fence between the properties, leads me to believe he was desperately trying to find some evidence that someone jumped the fence. When he did not find it, that is where the blue bag comes into play. IMO.

[bobaugust]

Mr. August,

What is the scientific evidence that Ron and/or Nicole were in fact dead before Park saw either the AA or Kato? Where is the proof they were dead before Simpson even left the ground in LA?

GreenIce, Steven Schwab encountered Nicole’s dog at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy shortly before 11:00, about the same time Park first saw Kaelin and then Simpson enter his house. Schwab testified he noticed blood on one of the dog’s back legs. He said when he bent down to examine it he saw there was blood on the paws of the dog and the underside of the dog’s chest was very dirty with mud or blood. Schwab said the blood appeared moist; it was red and shiny.

bobaugust

[GreenIce]

Wagner did a experiemtnt on the wall
He had 2-3 very large men bang against Katos outside wall.Guess what. The picture never moved.

Martin,

IMO, the issue of the picture moving or not moving is a non starter. The issue is how is it that only a 1 man in the world, according to the G's could have jumped that fence, crashed into the wall and not leave any trace evidence behind?

Clark knew that the glove was planted, she only focused on how loud the noise was. However, is it possible that a noise could have moved the picture without? You know something like a sonic boom or something?

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, Steven Schwab encountered Nicole’s dog at the corner of Dorothy and Bundy shortly before 11:00, about the same time Park first saw Kaelin and then Simpson enter his house. Schwab testified he noticed blood on one of the dog’s back legs. He said when he bent down to examine it he saw there was blood on the paws of the dog and the underside of the dog’s chest was very dirty with mud or blood. Schwab said the blood appeared moist; it was red and shiny.

bobaugust

Mr. August,

The blood on the dog only proves that he has blood on him, it is not proof that Nicole and Ron were dead. The dog was stopping at every house and barking at them. The dog did not drag him to the bodies like he did the other couple a an hour or say later. In fact, Swab tried to get the dog to lead him "home" and the dog would not budge on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy (I think those were the streets). Yet, he later drags the couple to them?

There is also the cops who he encountered, why did they not testify? Why were they on Bundy that night, at that time? What about the woman who was by her car, just staring at the condo and did not call the police when she was asked to by the couple? How long was she parked there and what did she see and hear?

The dog's barking or wailing is not proof that they were dead nor does the blood on the dog.

[bobaugust]

Wagner did a experiemtnt on the wall
He had 2-3 very large men bang against Katos outside wall.Guess what. The picture never moved.

Martin, how many times do I have to correct your incorrect information before you finally stop posting it. Wagner did no such thing. Simpson’s defense team learned that by simply pounding or hitting the wall they were not able to create enough force to tilt the picture near Kaelin’s bed. It took a far greater force to do that. The force generated by a 200 lb man jumping from the top of a 4 to 5 foot fence and slamming into the wall.

Lawrence Schiller, American Tragedy, Page 145

“On Sunday afternoon, June 26, Shapiro, Kardashian, Pavelic, and Drs. Baden and Lee played sleuth during their critical official visit to Rockingham.

Inside Kato's apartment, they banged hard on the wall. The picture didn't move. Kardashian led half the team to the back walkway. He and others rammed into the wall like football players. Again, the picture stayed motionless.”

bobaugust

[GreenIce]

Martin, how many times do I have to correct your incorrect information before you finally stop posting it. Wagner did no such thing. Simpson’s defense team learned that by simply pounding or hitting the wall they were not able to create enough force to tilt the picture near Kaelin’s bed. It took a far greater force to do that. The force generated by a 200 lb man jumping from the top of a 4 to 5 foot fence and slamming into the wall.

Lawrence Schiller, American Tragedy, Page 145

“On Sunday afternoon, June 26, Shapiro, Kardashian, Pavelic, and Drs. Baden and Lee played sleuth during their critical official visit to Rockingham.

Inside Kato's apartment, they banged hard on the wall. The picture didn't move. Kardashian led half the team to the back walkway. He and others rammed into the wall like football players. Again, the picture stayed motionless.”

bobaugust

Mr. August,

If what you are saying is true, then the DA's should have no problem recreating it. The bottom line, if the DA's did not do the recreation as you have laid it out, it is because they did not believe that he jumped from the fence into the wall.

Like I said in one of my posts, the picture moving means nothing, it is not evidence of someone crashing into the wall. However, marks or trace evidence would be proof. There is none.

[tv]

TV,

Have you read her book?

BTW, Kris and Bruce Jenner were at the intervention as well as her ex husband, her daughter's adoptive father----what did they say in their desposition about Faye's drug problem?

Just like some feel that Jason Simpson has reason to lean his testimony toward his father, isn't it only fair that Faye would "lean" her comments to her favor?

IMO, while it is common that addicts do slip back, however, Faye's insistence that she had her problem under control and did not need rehab tells me that she knows exactly how to protray her addiction where she does not lose credibility.
I haven't read it. I don't see any depositions by Bruce or Kris Jenner. Maybe I'm overlooking them. I don't see what Faye's drug addiction has to do with Simpson killing Ron and Nicole. There is no evidence that they were killed by anyone besides OJ Simpson and certainly not by Columbian drug lords. Faye would be little beans to a Columbian drug cartel. Speaking of Jason Simpson, I've read his civil trial testimony and I don't think it was particularly slanted toward his father. This is from his deposition:

Q: Okay. At any point in time from the moment you learned of Nicole's death to the present, did you ever form a belief that your father might be responsible for these deaths?

MR. LEONARD: I am going to object as it's not relevant, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

BY MR. PETROCELLI:

Q: You may answer.

A: I never formed a belief, no.

Q: Did you ever form a suspicion?

MR. LEONARD: Objection. Same objections.

THE WITNESS: I formed a suspicion.

[tv]

Mr. August,

If what you are saying is true, then the DA's should have no problem recreating it. The bottom line, if the DA's did not do the recreation as you have laid it out, it is because they did not believe that he jumped from the fence into the wall.

Like I said in one of my posts, the picture moving means nothing, it is not evidence of someone crashing into the wall. However, marks or trace evidence would be proof. There is none.
Not true. There were positive presumptive tests for blood on the air conditioner and on the cable wire also if I recall correctly.

[tv]

Mr. August,

The blood on the dog only proves that he has blood on him, it is not proof that Nicole and Ron were dead. The dog was stopping at every house and barking at them. The dog did not drag him to the bodies like he did the other couple a an hour or say later. In fact, Swab tried to get the dog to lead him "home" and the dog would not budge on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy (I think those were the streets). Yet, he later drags the couple to them?

There is also the cops who he encountered, why did they not testify? Why were they on Bundy that night, at that time? What about the woman who was by her car, just staring at the condo and did not call the police when she was asked to by the couple? How long was she parked there and what did she see and hear?

The dog's barking or wailing is not proof that they were dead nor does the blood on the dog.

GreenIce, you're not actually trying to say that the dog had blood on him but Ron and Nicole were still alive? Please tell me what reasoning you're using to say that.

[GreenIce]

Not true. There were positive presumptive tests for blood on the air conditioner and on the cable wire also if I recall correctly.

TV,

The blood on the wire was tested by Fung. The test did say it was blood but it was too small of an amount and it could not be determined if it was human or animal blood.

In regards to the AC Unit, I have a hard time believing that who ever told Fung about the blood on the wire or if he found it, missed the blood on the AC unit.

Does a presumptive test say what type of blood it is, human or animal?

[tv]

Martin,

IMO, the issue of the picture moving or not moving is a non starter. The issue is how is it that only a 1 man in the world, according to the G's could have jumped that fence, crashed into the wall and not leave any trace evidence behind?

Clark knew that the glove was planted, she only focused on how loud the noise was. However, is it possible that a noise could have moved the picture without? You know something like a sonic boom or something?

Please post evidence that proves Clarke 'knew' the glove was planted.

[tv]

TV,

The blood on the wire was tested by Fung. The test did say it was blood but it was too small of an amount and it could not be determined if it was human or animal blood.

In regards to the AC Unit, I have a hard time believing that who ever told Fung about the blood on the wire or if he found it, missed the blood on the AC unit.

Does a presumptive test say what type of blood it is, human or animal?No, I don't believe it does. Since Dr. Lee never tested it any further we'll never know.

[bobaugust]

Mr. August,

The blood on the dog only proves that he has blood on him, it is not proof that Nicole and Ron were dead. The dog was stopping at every house and barking at them. The dog did not drag him to the bodies like he did the other couple a an hour or say later. In fact, Swab tried to get the dog to lead him "home" and the dog would not budge on the corner of Dorothy and Bundy (I think those were the streets). Yet, he later drags the couple to them?

There is also the cops who he encountered, why did they not testify? Why were they on Bundy that night, at that time? What about the woman who was by her car, just staring at the condo and did not call the police when she was asked to by the couple? How long was she parked there and what did she see and hear?

The dog's barking or wailing is not proof that they were dead nor does the blood on the dog.

GreenIce, I don’t think there is any doubt that the fresh blood that Schwab saw on Nicole’s dog came from the victims at the murder scene. The dog was seen and heard barking loudly in the street at Bundy at about 10:45 by Nicole’s next door neighbor before it encountered Schwab at Dorothy and Bundy. Why didn’t the dog lead Schwab back to the bodies? Who knows maybe the dog was too upset and scared. About an hour later the dog evidently settled down and wanted to go home so it did lead Boztepe and Rasmussen to the bodies.

Officer Benjamin Jones, the police officer who Schwab flagged down, came forward during the criminal trial. The police report he wrote after his encounter with Schwab was given to the defense and supported what Schwab testified to.

The prosecution intended to call Officer Jones after the completion of Officer Riske’s testimony but evidently there was no need to since the defense never disputed what Schwab testified to concerning his encounter with Officer Jones.

bobaugust

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, you're not actually trying to say that the dog had blood on him but Ron and Nicole were still alive? Please tell me what reasoning you're using to say that.

TV,

I did post my reasoning why I believe it is very possible that Ron and Nicole were still alive or in the process of being killed. But I will add some more. The detectives did everything they could to cloud the time of death. There is evidence that Nicole was and did have a "date" that night--and it wasn't Ron. Or if it was Ron, he was killed as he was leaving rather then coming.

Sydney heard her mother crying and fighting that night, no matter what timeline is used, then that had to be a significant amount of time for Sydney to deal with this and be able to fall asleep. If, as it was written in "Killing Time", and she heard the "Hey, Hey, Hey", then again and the men's voices, then how could she have slept through the slaughter? There is also said to have been a witness who reported a woman scream around 10:32 p.m. that night, again, how could Sydney heard the men's voices but not the woman's scream and not become alarmed by it?

There is no scientific evidence to prove that they were dead or that the killers had left the area. Like I said, the dog was behaving strangely. You can't base the time of death on a dog's bark, wail or blood on its paws and belly.

[tv]

TV,

I did post my reasoning why I believe it is very possible that Ron and Nicole were still alive or in the process of being killed. But I will add some more. The detectives did everything they could to cloud the time of death. There is evidence that Nicole was and did have a "date" that night--and it wasn't Ron. Or if it was Ron, he was killed as he was leaving rather then coming.

Sydney heard her mother crying and fighting that night, no matter what timeline is used, then that had to be a significant amount of time for Sydney to deal with this and be able to fall asleep. If, as it was written in "Killing Time", and she heard the "Hey, Hey, Hey", then again and the men's voices, then how could she have slept through the slaughter? There is also said to have been a witness who reported a woman scream around 10:32 p.m. that night, again, how could Sydney heard the men's voices but not the woman's scream and not become alarmed by it?

There is no scientific evidence to prove that they were dead or that the killers had left the area. Like I said, the dog was behaving strangely. You can't base the time of death on a dog's bark, wail or blood on its paws and belly.If you really believe that they weren't dead when the dog was first seen with blood on his paws then I'm at a loss. :shrug:

[GreenIce]

Please post evidence that proves Clarke 'knew' the glove was planted.

I think it is obvious she knew it was planted. She knew what Vanatter wrote on the search warrant, she knew that she could not use Fuhrman for the socks, she knew that there was no trace evidence that anyone was behind that wall and dropped the glove. She knew that MF dropping Kato off inside the house and finding the glove several minutes later made no sense. She may have brushed off comments about MF, but she knew that MF has been accused of planting evidence in a very recent case.

The real question is what proof did Clark have that MF would not have done it? DA's, like Judges, know that pissing off cops is really never a good idea. They can make or break your case. Look what Fuhrman did to them.

Like I said, if the answer to the noise and the dropped glove was a 200 pound man jumping off of the fence, it should have been a no brainer. To say that would be risking injury makes no sense. In fact, it would have worked to their favor, they could have proved that it was possible to hit a wall that hard and not leave any marks, even on the jumpee's body. IMO.

[GreenIce]

If you really believe that they weren't dead when the dog was first seen with blood on his paws then I'm at a loss. :shrug:

TV,

The prove to me that the blood on the dogs is proof that both of them are dead. Prove to me the time of death is that of a dog's bark and wail. Explain to me why the dog refused to drag Swab to the bodies on two separate occassions but had no problem dragging the other couple to the bodies.

[tv]

TV,

I did post my reasoning why I believe it is very possible that Ron and Nicole were still alive or in the process of being killed. But I will add some more. The detectives did everything they could to cloud the time of death. There is evidence that Nicole was and did have a "date" that night--and it wasn't Ron. Or if it was Ron, he was killed as he was leaving rather then coming.

Sydney heard her mother crying and fighting that night, no matter what timeline is used, then that had to be a significant amount of time for Sydney to deal with this and be able to fall asleep. If, as it was written in "Killing Time", and she heard the "Hey, Hey, Hey", then again and the men's voices, then how could she have slept through the slaughter? There is also said to have been a witness who reported a woman scream around 10:32 p.m. that night, again, how could Sydney heard the men's voices but not the woman's scream and not become alarmed by it?

There is no scientific evidence to prove that they were dead or that the killers had left the area. Like I said, the dog was behaving strangely. You can't base the time of death on a dog's bark, wail or blood on its paws and belly.

Are you saying that you believe Sydney was awake during the killings?

[tv]

TV,

The prove to me that the blood on the dogs is proof that both of them are dead. Prove to me the time of death is that of a dog's bark and wail. Explain to me why the dog refused to drag Swab to the bodies on two separate occassions but had no problem dragging the other couple to the bodies.
The blood on the dog proves that Ron and Nicole had bled extensively when the dog was first seen with the blood. Neither one could have lived more than a few minutes with the wounds they sustained. Why the dog behaved as he did is anyone's guess. I've had different dogs over a number of years and they've always done things that I couldn't explain. One thing I do know is that dogs are animals and don't think like people so it's a little hard for me to second-guess a dog.

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, I don’t think there is any doubt that the fresh blood that Schwab saw on Nicole’s dog came from the victims at the murder scene. The dog was seen and heard barking loudly in the street at Bundy at about 10:45 by Nicole’s next door neighbor before it encountered Schwab at Dorothy and Bundy. Why didn’t the dog lead Schwab back to the bodies? Who knows maybe the dog was too upset and scared. About an hour later the dog evidently settled down and wanted to go home so it did lead Boztepe and Rasmussen to the bodies.

Officer Benjamin Jones, the police officer who Schwab flagged down, came forward during the criminal trial. The police report he wrote after his encounter with Schwab was given to the defense and supported what Schwab testified to.

The prosecution intended to call Officer Jones after the completion of Officer Riske’s testimony but evidently there was no need to since the defense never disputed what Schwab testified to concerning his encounter with Officer Jones.

bobaugust

Mr. August,

I did not mean to give the impression that the blood was not Ron's or Nicole's. I have no doubt that their blood was found on the dog. However, their blood being found on the dog does not indicate the time of death.

Swab tried to get the dog to lead him to his home--dog only went so far and refused to move. I am sure dogs know fear and that fact makes me question if the killers were still in the area and that is why the dog refused to move.

Steven Swab did correct his statement. Of course he could have been mistaken, no big deal, however, his changing time did open the door to the defense---the cops who he encountered would have closed that door to the defense.

I think in Clark's book, she says that the cop didn't realize that she wanted to talk him and I think she made a comment like, "what was he watching, the weather channel?!"

Also, the cop's testimony would not have been limited to when he talked to Swab--he would have been asked what he was doing there and what did he see and hear. IMO.

[GreenIce]

fgump2,

You have questioned, I think it was you, why so many of Simpson's friends did not seem to support him. I posted that it is possible that Simpson did not want to see them while he was dressed in prison clothes and chained to the floor. In American Tragedy, it does say that many of his friends did stay away and these people were on his visitor list. So you were right, they did.

However, I have no problem with any of Simpson's friends thinking that there was a good chance that he did do it. If they believed all the press reports about the "evidence", then as much as it may have pained them, they may have believed he did it. I believed he did it and never changed my mind until the DA's case. I did believe that even if he was guilty, he would be convicted because of he lead detectives testimony.

[GreenIce]

Are you saying that you believe Sydney was awake during the killings?

TV,

No, that was not what I posted. If Sydney did hear what it has been said she heard, then enough time must have lapsed where she did fall soundly asleep. If the murders happened shortly before or shortly after the murders, I can't imagine she would stay in bed and just try to go to sleep. IMO.

As upsetting as it was to hear her mother cry and fight on the phone, something must have been said or done to ease her fears so she could have fallen alseep. IMO.

[GreenIce]

The blood on the dog proves that Ron and Nicole had bled extensively when the dog was first seen with the blood. Neither one could have lived more than a few minutes with the wounds they sustained. Why the dog behaved as he did is anyone's guess. I've had different dogs over a number of years and they've always done things that I couldn't explain. One thing I do know is that dogs are animals and don't think like people so it's a little hard for me to second-guess a dog.

TV,

I agree with you, which is why you can't use the dog's behaviors as proof of any thing other then he came in contact with Nicole's and Ron's blood. The wailing and the barking only proves the dog was in distress, it does not prove Ron and Nicole were both dead or that the killer was no longer at Bundy or in the area.

[tv]

TV,

I agree with you, which is why you can't use the dog's behaviors as proof of any thing other then he came in contact with Nicole's and Ron's blood. The wailing and the barking only proves the dog was in distress, it does not prove Ron and Nicole were both dead or that the killer was no longer at Bundy or in the area.

GreenIce, you'll never convince me that Ron and Nicole weren't dead when the dog was first discovered with blood on him. That flies in the face of any logic whatsoever.

[tv]

TV,

No, that was not what I posted. If Sydney did hear what it has been said she heard, then enough time must have lapsed where she did fall soundly asleep. If the murders happened shortly before or shortly after the murders, I can't imagine she would stay in bed and just try to go to sleep. IMO.

As upsetting as it was to hear her mother cry and fight on the phone, something must have been said or done to ease her fears so she could have fallen alseep. IMO.
I thnk Sydney was a child that was used to emotions running high in her family. Her parents fought a lot and her father had a ferocious temper. Besides, children can fall asleep very quickly when they're tired and often sleep through almost anything.

[GreenIce]

No, I don't believe it does. Since Dr. Lee never tested it any further we'll never know.

TV,

First, it was not Dr. Lee's responsibility to determine what or who's blood it is. Dr. Lee was not accusing Simpson of murder. The state was and it was their experts job to run these tests to determine what or who's blood it was.

Do you know for a fact that the there was enough of a sample on the AC to prove it was in fact blood and determine if it was human blood?

It is not the defense's team job to prove their client's guilt or innocence for that matter. There job is to make the DA's prove their case, using their witnesses and experts.

However, if it was blood on the AC unit, how and again did Fung miss it?

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, you'll never convince me that Ron and Nicole weren't dead when the dog was first discovered with blood on him. That flies in the face of any logic whatsoever.

TV,

Please explain or list the reasons why my comments are not logical. Seriously, I would like to know why you think that my questions are unreasonable.

[GreenIce]

I thnk Sydney was a child that was used to emotions running high in her family. Her parents fought a lot and her father had a ferocious temper. Besides, children can fall asleep very quickly when they're tired and often sleep through almost anything.

TV,

You do make a good point, Sydney may have been used to parents fighting and if that is what she heard that night, then I can see where she may have been able to block it out.

However, her parents fighting and her mother crying and fighting that night are not the same. If Sydney was use to her mother crying and fighting with her best friend, then again, you have a good point.

Sydney's comments in the police car on the way to the station, IMO, makes it clear that she has associated her mother's crying and fighting with her now being in the police car, why her mother is not picking up the phone when Sydney calls her from the police station as well as why her mother had not already come for her and her brother.

I agree with that Simpson had a "loud" temper but Nicole's temper was not what I would call a "timid" temper. Both her parents had tempers.

I agree that kids can fall asleep when they are tired but there are children who get so over tired due to the events of the day that it takes them a little longer to fall asleep.

[tv]

TV,

You do make a good point, Sydney may have been used to parents fighting and if that is what she heard that night, then I can see where she may have been able to block it out.

However, her parents fighting and her mother crying and fighting that night are not the same. If Sydney was use to her mother crying and fighting with her best friend, then again, you have a good point.

Sydney's comments in the police car on the way to the station, IMO, makes it clear that she has associated her mother's crying and fighting with her now being in the police car, why her mother is not picking up the phone when Sydney calls her from the police station as well as why her mother had not already come for her and her brother.

I agree with that Simpson had a "loud" temper but Nicole's temper was not what I would call a "timid" temper. Both her parents had tempers.

I agree that kids can fall asleep when they are tired but there are children who get so over tired due to the events of the day that it takes them a little longer to fall asleep.I've no doubt that Nicole had a temper but I've also no doubt that Simpson's temper was more intimidating. Why was Sydney calling her mother from the police station?

[GreenIce]

I've no doubt that Nicole had a temper but I've also no doubt that Simpson's temper was more intimidating. Why was Sydney calling her mother from the police station?

TV,

IMO, most men would have a more intimidating temper then a woman.

Sydney and Justin were taken in a police car by two officers, one Joan Valquez (sp?) and a male officer, I think his name was Eric and his last name started with an H. Sydney made mention of her parents going to her recital that night, she mentioned the fight, hearing her mother cry.

At the police station, the male officer was trying to track down a next of kin and it took him about 4 hours to finally ask Sydney for a telephone number. The female officer tried to keep the kids occupied by playing games with them and getting them color or draw. Sydney made comments to her brother that something terrible must have happened and that is why their mother has not come from them. I think it was in Jeff Toobin's book about Sydney calling her mother over and over again from the police station.

If you think about it, if they wanted to keep Sydney as calm as possible, telling her she couldn't call her mother was not going to work. IMO.

I think it is also very possible during this time that Sydney or Justin did say that their father was out of town. It makes sense, if Sydney and Justin knew their father was in town, then I believe Sydney would have called him right away. The fact that she didn't, as far as we know, never even asked to call her father could not have gone unnoticed the police.

[tv]

TV,

Please explain or list the reasons why my comments are not logical. Seriously, I would like to know why you think that my questions are unreasonable.

GreenIce, I've already told you why it's not logical. The wounds were so severe that they would have only lived a few moments after receiving these wounds. They were dead when the dog was first found with the blood shortly before 11:00.

[tv]

TV,

IMO, most men would have a more intimidating temper then a woman.

Sydney and Justin were taken in a police car by two officers, one Joan Valquez (sp?) and a male officer, I think his name was Eric and his last name started with an H. Sydney made mention of her parents going to her recital that night, she mentioned the fight, hearing her mother cry.

At the police station, the male officer was trying to track down a next of kin and it took him about 4 hours to finally ask Sydney for a telephone number. The female officer tried to keep the kids occupied by playing games with them and getting them color or draw. Sydney made comments to her brother that something terrible must have happened and that is why their mother has not come from them. I think it was in Jeff Toobin's book about Sydney calling her mother over and over again from the police station.

If you think about it, if they wanted to keep Sydney as calm as possible, telling her she couldn't call her mother was not going to work. IMO.

Allowing her to call her mother over and over again wasn't too smart either.

[tv]

TV,

First, it was not Dr. Lee's responsibility to determine what or who's blood it is. Dr. Lee was not accusing Simpson of murder. The state was and it was their experts job to run these tests to determine what or who's blood it was.

Do you know for a fact that the there was enough of a sample on the AC to prove it was in fact blood and determine if it was human blood?

It is not the defense's team job to prove their client's guilt or innocence for that matter. There job is to make the DA's prove their case, using their witnesses and experts.

However, if it was blood on the AC unit, how and again did Fung miss it?

I have no idea if there was enough blood for further testing. You've asked many times how Fung missed it. Since most people that think OJ Simpson is not guilty think Fung is a bungling doofus of a criminologist then that must be the answer.

[fgump2]

TV,

I did post my reasoning why I believe it is very possible that Ron and Nicole were still alive or in the process of being killed. But I will add some more. The detectives did everything they could to cloud the time of death. There is evidence that Nicole was and did have a "date" that night--and it wasn't Ron. Or if it was Ron, he was killed as he was leaving rather then coming.

Sydney heard her mother crying and fighting that night, no matter what timeline is used, then that had to be a significant amount of time for Sydney to deal with this and be able to fall asleep. If, as it was written in "Killing Time", and she heard the "Hey, Hey, Hey", then again and the men's voices, then how could she have slept through the slaughter? There is also said to have been a witness who reported a woman scream around 10:32 p.m. that night, again, how could Sydney heard the men's voices but not the woman's scream and not become alarmed by it?

There is no scientific evidence to prove that they were dead or that the killers had left the area. Like I said, the dog was behaving strangely. You can't base the time of death on a dog's bark, wail or blood on its paws and belly.
************************

Greenice, I think you are too quick to think you understand other people's motivations. You have in recent posts claimed you feel sure that both the detectives (I don't know which, probably Vannatter and Lange) and Marcia Clark had dishonest motivation. I don't claim that any of them did an outstanding job, but people usually make a mistake when the act like they can read the minds of people they disagree with.

I think I can conclude that Simpson was guilty partly because of the fact that after the trial he showed more anger against Fred Goldman than against the police. Also some news media people noticed that Mr. Simpson seemed to be show more anger against the Goldmans than against Mark Fuhrman. I conclude from this that he was guilty. I believe you have disagreed with this point of view. One of OJS's nieces, Terri (Terry ?) Baker also noticed OJS's lack of anger against the detectives.

I must admit I haven't studied what the detectives and M. Clark said or wrote as much as some people have. But I think if there had been any red flags in their behavior as obvious as OJS's anger against the Goldmans and lack of anger against the police, I would have noticed it.

I may have been wrong in paying so much attention to the fact that very few football people were supportive of OJS. I thought I read somewhere soon after his arrest that most of his team mates thought he was guilty because he became so angry against the women in his life, and because he used uppers and downers. I don't know where I read this. I thought I read it in Sports Illustrated, but I looked it up, and couldn't find it there. In any case there has been so much written about the man that a lot of it must be untrue. I must admit that didn't read any books that gave much weight to either of these factors. I don't think I could find anything in print about OJS's relationships with his team mates if I had to win a bet.

I don't know anything about who visited him in jail. I was only noticing how few people said anything like: ". I didn't think he was that kind of guy". Of course even if there were team mates who defended him, that wouldn't make him innocent, and lack of social popularity wouldn't make him guilty. Pete Rose was another athlete who was greatly loved by the public and the press, but not by his team mates. I believe that OJS did use uppers and downers, but I have no proof

Regarding the time estimates. I thought there were two other methods of estimating the time of death. The first was in retracing Ron Goldman’s route from the restaurant to the location of the crime. I believe that this got somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. The second method was the autopsy data. Both autopsies gave time intervals for the time of death, that is an earliest possible time, and the latest possible time. I think the mid point of these two time intervals was about the same. Somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. These time intervals may be in the autopsies, so someone could perhaps cut me down, or check on this.

[GreenIce]

Allowing her to call her mother over and over again wasn't too smart either.

TV,

I think because the police knew Simpson was out of town and they suspected Simpson, I don't see what else they could have done. If the detectives are telling the truth why they went to Rockingham, then it makes no sense they would have put Sydney through that agony. IMO.

[tv]

TV,

I think because the police knew Simpson was out of town and they suspected Simpson, I don't see what else they could have done. If the detectives are telling the truth why they went to Rockingham, then it makes no sense they would have put Sydney through that agony. IMO.

Another thing -- I would think that the police would want to keep the line to Nicole's open in case someone called that might be connected to the case. I don't know. :shrug:

[GreenIce]

I have no idea if there was enough blood for further testing. You've asked many times how Fung missed it. Since most people that think OJ Simpson is not guilty think Fung is a bungling doofus of a criminologist then that must be the answer.

TV,

I have never ever posted that Fung was a "bungling doofus"--though I do smile at the image.

However, I do think Clark and the DA's did paint that picture of Fung. They had no choice. Clark's defense of all the mistakes made in this case were done by cops, detectives and CSI people who picked the wrong career field. Her "They Suck" defense of their work just doesn't work for me.

The point is that you and others are assuming that there was in fact blood on the AC unit, the blood was a human's and it was OJ Simpson's. The fact is, you have transfered the burden of proof from the DA's to the defense. IMO.

[old_soul]

GreenIce, I've already told you why it's not logical. The wounds were so severe that they would have only lived a few moments after receiving these wounds. They were dead when the dog was first found with the blood shortly before 11:00.

You are correct TV. I believe , from testimony etc, they were dead within a 5 minute timeline. Even Nicole bleeding copiously from her neck wound was quick. IMO, it was minutes from when Kato (dog) stepped into the blood and was howling and wailing, to running around the area with the wet blood on him. Your timeline....correct.

People think animals are not capable of understanding the moment..they are. From waking an owner/family during a fire, from sitting next to an unconscious owner and dragging it to safety, from saving a fellow dog unconscious in the middle of a highway and dragging it to safety.... This dog knew, and acted accordingly.

BTW ~ don't know if this was brought up.........

Malamutes and Husky's do not bark. They wail and howl. Very distinctive.
My friend was a breeder and I owned one also. I do not believe it was Kato who barked..but that was definately him wailing/howling.

[tv]

TV,

I have never ever posted that Fung was a "bungling doofus"--though I do smile at the image.

However, I do think Clark and the DA's did paint that picture of Fung. They had no choice. Clark's defense of all the mistakes made in this case were done by cops, detectives and CSI people who picked the wrong career field. Her "They Suck" defense of their work just doesn't work for me.

The point is that you and others are assuming that there was in fact blood on the AC unit, the blood was a human's and it was OJ Simpson's. The fact is, you have transfered the burden of proof from the DA's to the defense. IMO.

GreenIce, it doesn't matter to me what was or was not on the air conditioner. There's so much more evidence against OJ Simpson that it doesn't matter about the AC unit. His blood mixed with the blood of the victims in his vehicle, on the sock and on the glove is enough for me.

[fgump2]

TV,

First, it was not Dr. Lee's responsibility to determine what or who's blood it is. Dr. Lee was not accusing Simpson of murder. The state was and it was their experts job to run these tests to determine what or who's blood it was.

Do you know for a fact that the there was enough of a sample on the AC to prove it was in fact blood and determine if it was human blood?

It is not the defense's team job to prove their client's guilt or innocence for that matter. There job is to make the DA's prove their case, using their witnesses and experts.

However, if it was blood on the AC unit, how and again did Fung miss it?
************************************************** *******
I was bothered (and continue to be bothered) by the fact that many pro defense (of Simpson) people seem to think that every piece of evidence should be processed. I have read that most criminologists usually pick up a representative sample of the blood. I also think that Mr Fung made a lot of mistakes on this case.
I don't know whether Fung missed the blood on the air conditioner because he thougt there was enough evidence without it, or what, but I thought there was enough evidence to convict, if the DA's had presented all of it.

I ifind it strange that you spend so much time focusing on what were probably careless mistakes by the police and ignoring such coincidences as:
Nicole predicted her death at the hands of OJS.
Guilty behavior on the part of OJS afterwards.
The fact that the killer used rare gloves and rare shoes. These shoes and gloves were so rare that there were probably not much more than 100 of either of his size in the country. There is photorgaphic evidence that OJS at one tiime wore shoes and gloves like this; but his pair of gloves seem to have disappeared. I think he wore them in the 1993 football season. Of course there are pages of coincidences that we have to buy into to belieGreenice, I think you posted something about fortunate coincidences for the prosecution, but I think the list is much shorter.

[old_soul]

************************************************** *******
I was bothered (and continue to be bothered) by the fact that many pro defense (of Simpson) people seem to think that every piece of evidence should be processed. I have read that most criminologists usually pick up a representative sample of the blood. I also think that Mr Fung made a lot of mistakes on this case.
I don't know whether Fung missed the blood on the air conditioner because he thougt there was enough evidence without it, or what, but I thought there was enough evidence to convict, if the DA's had presented all of it.

I ifind it strange that you spend so much time focusing on what were probably careless mistakes by the police and ignoring such coincidences as:
Nicole predicted her death at the hands of OJS.
Guilty behavior on the part of OJS afterwards.
The fact that the killer used rare gloves and rare shoes. These shoes and gloves were so rare that there were probably not much more than 100 of either of his size in the country. There is photorgaphic evidence that OJS at one tiime wore shoes and gloves like this; but his pair of gloves seem to have disappeared. I think he wore them in the 1993 football season. Of course there are pages of coincidences that we have to buy into to belieGreenice, I think you posted something about fortunate coincidences for the prosecution, but I think the list is much shorter.

Very important 'evidence', I agree and think much of this was lost on the jury, with all the mumbo jumbo of the trial ~ it seems that their 'sponges' were full already!

Hmmmm...seems he lost both his gloves and his shoes (that he never had)..happens all the time...:rolleyes:

[tv]

You are correct TV. I believe , from testimony etc, they were dead within a 5 minute timeline. Even Nicole bleeding copiously from her neck wound was quick. IMO, it was minutes from when Kato (dog) stepped into the blood and was howling and wailing, to running around the area with the wet blood on him. Your timeline....correct.

People think animals are not capable of understanding the moment..they are. From waking an owner/family during a fire, from sitting next to an unconscious owner and dragging it to safety, from saving a fellow dog unconscious in the middle of a highway and dragging it to safety.... This dog knew, and acted accordingly.

BTW ~ don't know if this was brought up.........

Malamutes and Husky's do not bark. They wail and howl. Very distinctive.
My friend was a breeder and I owned one also. I do not believe it was Kato who barked..but that was definately him wailing/howling.

Thank you, old soul. It's unreasonable to think that the dog had blood on his paws and belly and that Ron and Nicole were still alive. I believe there was a reason for the dog's actions. I'm sure he was extremely distressed. My dogs get upset when we play around and they think we're fighting. Vecause the dog didn't go with the first person he came upon but went with the couple is something he did for his own reasons.

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, it doesn't matter to me what was or was not on the air conditioner. There's so much more evidence against OJ Simpson that it doesn't matter about the AC unit. His blood mixed with the blood of the victims in his vehicle, on the sock and on the glove is enough for me.

TV,

In all due respect, your comments about there being so much more evidence is really frustrating. The reason why I feel it is frustrating is that every time some posts a logical response to the evidence, that piece of evidence is then thrown out and then we hear there was plenty of other evidence to convict him.

Several G's have said that the tests on the AC unit and the wire were human blood and that is evidence that someone was back there before Fuhrman found the glove. Now that there is a question even if was human blood, you suddenly say you don't care about it, there is other evidence.

Ron's blood was never found until months later. There is no reasonable explaination to this. At least two witneses testified that they did not see blood in the Bronco. Most likey there were more the judge probably limited the defense on how many they could call or none of the others would come forward.

As for the sock, the defense not only produced a two expert witnesses on why the blood could have been planted, but EDTA was found in it and more importantly, the blood was never found until August. Michelle Kessler is an experienced lab chief. To say that none of them used the correct equipment to examine the socks just makes no sense.

Simpson's blood, the amount and where it was found on the glove was consistent with Collin Y's explaination of his work that day. You feel that the errors made in this case were just that, errors. If this is the case then why couldn't Collin Y make an error when he spilled some of Simpson's reference sample? Did he do it on purpose, no, but you can't discount that it could have happend that way.

Isn't it reasonable to ask why or how could have the most key blood evidence be found days, weeks, months later?

[GreenIce]

************************

Greenice, I think you are too quick to think you understand other people's motivations. You have in recent posts claimed you feel sure that both the detectives (I don't know which, probably Vannatter and Lange) and Marcia Clark had dishonest motivation. I don't claim that any of them did an outstanding job, but people usually make a mistake when the act like they can read the minds of people they disagree with.

I think I can conclude that Simpson was guilty partly because of the fact that after the trial he showed more anger against Fred Goldman than against the police. Also some news media people noticed that Mr. Simpson seemed to be show more anger against the Goldmans than against Mark Fuhrman. I conclude from this that he was guilty. I believe you have disagreed with this point of view. One of OJS's nieces, Terri (Terry ?) Baker also noticed OJS's lack of anger against the detectives.

I must admit I haven't studied what the detectives and M. Clark said or wrote as much as some people have. But I think if there had been any red flags in their behavior as obvious as OJS's anger against the Goldmans and lack of anger against the police, I would have noticed it.

I may have been wrong in paying so much attention to the fact that very few football people were supportive of OJS. I thought I read somewhere soon after his arrest that most of his team mates thought he was guilty because he became so angry against the women in his life, and because he used uppers and downers. I don't know where I read this. I thought I read it in Sports Illustrated, but I looked it up, and couldn't find it there. In any case there has been so much written about the man that a lot of it must be untrue. I must admit that didn't read any books that gave much weight to either of these factors. I don't think I could find anything in print about OJS's relationships with his team mates if I had to win a bet.

I don't know anything about who visited him in jail. I was only noticing how few people said anything like: ". I didn't think he was that kind of guy". Of course even if there were team mates who defended him, that wouldn't make him innocent, and lack of social popularity wouldn't make him guilty. Pete Rose was another athlete who was greatly loved by the public and the press, but not by his team mates. I believe that OJS did use uppers and downers, but I have no proof

Regarding the time estimates. I thought there were two other methods of estimating the time of death. The first was in retracing Ron Goldman’s route from the restaurant to the location of the crime. I believe that this got somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. The second method was the autopsy data. Both autopsies gave time intervals for the time of death, that is an earliest possible time, and the latest possible time. I think the mid point of these two time intervals was about the same. Somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. These time intervals may be in the autopsies, so someone could perhaps cut me down, or check on this.

fgump2,

I believe Clark, Vanatter and Lange believed Simpson was guilty. However, I do believe Clark sought victory over justice. I have posted my opinons on this case and while you may see it one way, I see it another.

In all fairness to me, don't you think that you and some other G's are transfering your morals and ethics on to the date's witnesess? Perfect example is the glove, many G's believe had another detective or cop seen MF pick up the second glove, they would have reported it. Or that no one would plant evidence in any murder case let alone a high profile case against a world famous athlete. It seems to me that G's do acknowledge that police have been involved in misconduct in the past but never would have done it in this case.

His anger at the Goldmans and the Browns is understandable. Heck, I am mad at them. As far as the police, there was no sense getting into a war with them because it would prove nothing if he took them on. The Goldmans and the Browns should have fought this battle, IMO.

I think the rule of thumb for the time death, depending on the circumstances is three hours. However, the LAPD had plent of "clocks" to use to narrow this down, to the best of my knowledge they did not use them. Or they could have used them and we just don't know about it.

Example, a rape kit was not done on Nicole, why? Lange said there was no evidence to suggest that a sexual assault took place so he did not order one. That makes no sense because "rape kits" are not just used in sexual assault cases. And to be honest, why is Lange, a detective giving orders to the ME? I would think the ME would have his own check list to follow--how could a detective waive this?

Also, there was evidence that Nicole did have a guest that night and it may have gotten intimate---did they check her panties for any type of sexual residue? Her stomach contents were thrown out yet Goldman's wasn't. Lange and Vanatter did not bring it to Dr. Golden's attention that he just tossed Nicole's stomach contents?

[old_soul]

Thank you, old soul. It's unreasonable to think that the dog had blood on his paws and belly and that Ron and Nicole were still alive. I believe there was a reason for the dog's actions. I'm sure he was extremely distressed. My dogs get upset when we play around and they think we're fighting. Vecause the dog didn't go with the first person he came upon but went with the couple is something he did for his own reasons.

Yes ~ you have loyal dogs watching out for you TV (not coming to your house LOL) ~ but, I should have finished my thought about Kato...Akitas, like Malamutes and Huskys are notoriously loyal. They bark when excited, so Kato probably did, but more importantly was the wailing. He knew she was in trouble, and was confused at first, and didn't draw the first people to Nic and Ron (a trait common to Akitas), but he did ultimately lead someone to Nicole didn't he.
The wailing and howling was Kato crying for his Master.

[GreenIce]

You are correct TV. I believe , from testimony etc, they were dead within a 5 minute timeline. Even Nicole bleeding copiously from her neck wound was quick. IMO, it was minutes from when Kato (dog) stepped into the blood and was howling and wailing, to running around the area with the wet blood on him. Your timeline....correct.

People think animals are not capable of understanding the moment..they are. From waking an owner/family during a fire, from sitting next to an unconscious owner and dragging it to safety, from saving a fellow dog unconscious in the middle of a highway and dragging it to safety.... This dog knew, and acted accordingly.

BTW ~ don't know if this was brought up.........

Malamutes and Husky's do not bark. They wail and howl. Very distinctive.
My friend was a breeder and I owned one also. I do not believe it was Kato who barked..but that was definately him wailing/howling.

Old Soul,

Thank you, Thank you!!!!! You just proved my point about the dog. Thank God you are finally NG!

[GreenIce]

Thank you, old soul. It's unreasonable to think that the dog had blood on his paws and belly and that Ron and Nicole were still alive. I believe there was a reason for the dog's actions. I'm sure he was extremely distressed. My dogs get upset when we play around and they think we're fighting. Vecause the dog didn't go with the first person he came upon but went with the couple is something he did for his own reasons.

TV,

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets just say that when Swab found the dog or the dog found him, Nicole and Ron are dead. However, that does not mean the killers had left the scene. To me the dog's behavior, if you put stock into a dog's behavior, was protecting Swab and/or his dog against going any further. The dog still sense danager. If the killers were still at Bundy when Swab found the dog, then this clears Simpson, IMO.

[old_soul]

What evidence was there of Nicole having a guest there before her death, and gotten intimate?!

Was this after Mezzaluna going home with her kids? This was not about rape, it was passion and rage and very personal. The 'controlling' was done with a knife instead of forced sex. First you said she had a guest then you talk about a rape..where are you going with that?

Her stomach contents were not purposely 'dumped'. They did disappear though. No one knows how. :cool:

[tv]

TV,

Okay, for the sake of argument, lets just say that when Swab found the dog or the dog found him, Nicole and Ron are dead. However, that does not mean the killers had left the scene. To me the dog's behavior, if you put stock into a dog's behavior, was protecting Swab and/or his dog against going any further. The dog still sense danager. If the killers were still at Bundy when Swab found the dog, then this clears Simpson, IMO.Why would they still be there? Nicole and Ron were dead and the home was left untouched. Why were they hanging around?

[old_soul]

Old Soul,

Thank you, Thank you!!!!! You just proved my point about the dog. Thank God you are finally NG!http://i39.tinypic.com/308e49y.jpg

[tv]

TV,

In all due respect, your comments about there being so much more evidence is really frustrating. The reason why I feel it is frustrating is that every time some posts a logical response to the evidence, that piece of evidence is then thrown out and then we hear there was plenty of other evidence to convict him.

Several G's have said that the tests on the AC unit and the wire were human blood and that is evidence that someone was back there before Fuhrman found the glove. Now that there is a question even if was human blood, you suddenly say you don't care about it, there is other evidence.

Ron's blood was never found until months later. There is no reasonable explaination to this. At least two witneses testified that they did not see blood in the Bronco. Most likey there were more the judge probably limited the defense on how many they could call or none of the others would come forward.

As for the sock, the defense not only produced a two expert witnesses on why the blood could have been planted, but EDTA was found in it and more importantly, the blood was never found until August. Michelle Kessler is an experienced lab chief. To say that none of them used the correct equipment to examine the socks just makes no sense.

Simpson's blood, the amount and where it was found on the glove was consistent with Collin Y's explaination of his work that day. You feel that the errors made in this case were just that, errors. If this is the case then why couldn't Collin Y make an error when he spilled some of Simpson's reference sample? Did he do it on purpose, no, but you can't discount that it could have happend that way.

Isn't it reasonable to ask why or how could have the most key blood evidence be found days, weeks, months later?I'm sorry you're frustrated but maybe now you know how I feel about some of your posts. You say you never post untruths as fact -- but it's not true that Ron's blood wasn't found until months later. Where do you get this kind of information?

I don't know what you want me to say about the blood on the air conditioner. #1 Fung didn't collect it. #2 Dr. Lee collected it #3 the presumptive test for blood on the sample was positive. #4 Dr. Lee did no further testing possibly because there wasn't enough to test. That's the sum of what I know about the blood on the AC unit. What exactly do you want me to surmise from this information? I can surmise nothing; therefore, I move on to other evidence.

[bobaugust]

TV,

In all due respect, your comments about there being so much more evidence is really frustrating. The reason why I feel it is frustrating is that every time some posts a logical response to the evidence, that piece of evidence is then thrown out and then we hear there was plenty of other evidence to convict him.

Several G's have said that the tests on the AC unit and the wire were human blood and that is evidence that someone was back there before Fuhrman found the glove. Now that there is a question even if was human blood, you suddenly say you don't care about it, there is other evidence.

Ron's blood was never found until months later. There is no reasonable explaination to this. At least two witneses testified that they did not see blood in the Bronco. Most likey there were more the judge probably limited the defense on how many they could call or none of the others would come forward.

As for the sock, the defense not only produced a two expert witnesses on why the blood could have been planted, but EDTA was found in it and more importantly, the blood was never found until August. Michelle Kessler is an experienced lab chief. To say that none of them used the correct equipment to examine the socks just makes no sense.

Simpson's blood, the amount and where it was found on the glove was consistent with Collin Y's explaination of his work that day. You feel that the errors made in this case were just that, errors. If this is the case then why couldn't Collin Y make an error when he spilled some of Simpson's reference sample? Did he do it on purpose, no, but you can't discount that it could have happend that way.

Isn't it reasonable to ask why or how could have the most key blood evidence be found days, weeks, months later?

GreenIce, why do keep saying Ron’s blood wasn’t found in the Bronco until months later? You know that’s not true.

What two expert defense witnesses said the blood could have been planted on the sock? And whose blood do you think they said could have been planted, Simpson’s or Nicole’s?

Collin Yamauchi didn’t spill any of Simpson’s blood on the killer’s glove. Yamauchi testified that when he opened Simpson’s reference sample using a chem-wipe he held with in his gloved hands some blood soaked through the chem-wipe to his gloves. Yamauchi disposed of those gloves and put on clean gloves well before he worked on the evidence glove.

The key blood evidence were fresh blood drops found at Bundy. Blood drops that were seen when the bodies were first discovered and later when tested found to be Simpson’s blood.

bobaugust

[martin II]

Not true. There were positive presumptive tests for blood on the air conditioner and on the cable wire also if I recall correctly.

you know that presumptive blood test only means that the spot could be blood, not that it is.it could also be false positive just as well.The da did no presumptive test on either.i think it was lee.

[martin II]

Why would they still be there? Nicole and Ron were dead and the home was left untouched. Why were they hanging around?

Cleaning up their foot prints?

[martin II]

What evidence was there of Nicole having a guest there before her death, and gotten intimate?!

Was this after Mezzaluna going home with her kids? This was not about rape, it was passion and rage and very personal. The 'controlling' was done with a knife instead of forced sex. First you said she had a guest then you talk about a rape..where are you going with that?

Her stomach contents were not purposely 'dumped'. They did disappear though. No one knows how. :cool:

vanhatter and lang observed the autopsy. it is very strange that nicoles stomach contents were just tossed in front of their eyes. they were there to make sure things were done properly.imo

[martin II]

Yes ~ you have loyal dogs watching out for you TV (not coming to your house LOL) ~ but, I should have finished my thought about Kato...Akitas, like Malamutes and Huskys are notoriously loyal. They bark when excited, so Kato probably did, but more importantly was the wailing. He knew she was in trouble, and was confused at first, and didn't draw the first people to Nic and Ron (a trait common to Akitas), but he did ultimately lead someone to Nicole didn't he.
The wailing and howling was Kato crying for his Master.

When Heidstra reached Bundy & Gorham he saw or heard the dog BARKING louldly.when he was in the alley he heard the dog barking and when he was on bundy he heard the dog Barking.So i don't know about other Akitas but that dog BARKED a lot that night. The problem for the prosecution was different neighbors gave a wide range of times when they heard the dog bark,from10;15 up to 11;00 pm it is not wise to determine the time of death by when a dog barked or did not bark or when someone heard it bark.

No one has given proof of how the dog actually got out of the yard to the street.

[martin II]

vanhatter and Lang observed the autopsy. how is it that with them there Nicoles stomach contents were tossed.
Dr L dissagreed with Dr Goldens, who actually did the autopsy and claimed Golden made som 30 mistakes. Dr L who did not do the sutposy pushed Golden aside and gave the report himself. Goldens report said that it was possible that two knifes were used Dr L dissagreed.
I wonder how many times this had happened at the Cornors office.

[martin II]

I'm sorry you're frustrated but maybe now you know how I feel about some of your posts. You say you never post untruths as fact -- but it's not true that Ron's blood wasn't found until months later. Where do you get this kind of information?

I don't know what you want me to say about the blood on the air conditioner. #1 Fung didn't collect it. #2 Dr. Lee collected it #3 the presumptive test for blood on the sample was positive. #4 Dr. Lee did no further testing possibly because there wasn't enough to test. That's the sum of what I know about the blood on the AC unit. What exactly do you want me to surmise from this information? I can surmise nothing; therefore, I move on to other evidence.


Presumptive blood test means what to you?

[William Anthony]

There is a big difference between someone estimating how much time past such as seconds or minutes and someone tying to guess the time of day something happened without ever having looked at a clock or using a reliable reference.

I believed both Kaelin and Park as to what they remember happening. I just do not rely on estimations and guesses as to what time it was. You are the one ignoring what both of these witnesses testified to and making up your own version of what you think happened. That’s why your version is unsupported and wrong.

Park testified he saw Kaelin come down the north path from the back of the house and when Kaelin got to the driveway he saw Simpson walk up and enter his front door,

Kaelin testified he came down the north path two to three minutes after he heard the noises but did not let Park in the gate until he returned to from his first short trip to the south path. By the time Kaelin returned from that trip and opened the gate for Park, Simpson was in his house having already talked to Park over the intercom for the first time.

Your version contradicts where Park said Kaelin was when he first saw him. You have Kaelin retuning from the south path and then having Park see Kaelin and Simpson at the same time. That’s WRONG and impossible to have happened. If you were even remotely aware of the Rockingham estate layout you would realize this. If it happened the way you envision it Kaelin would have run right into Simpson since both of them would have been on the front driveway or at the very least they would have seen each other. That never happened.

Park’s phone records support his testimony and definitively establish the time of shortly before 10:55 Park first saw Kaelin to his left having come down the north path and stop at the driveway and Park saw Simpson in front of him walk up and enter his front door. Kaelin was coming from his room after hearing the noises on his back wall and Simpson was coming from behind Kaelin’s room after making those noises. They both made it around the house in about the same amount of time each going their own way.

Your version does not create reasonable doubt because it is contradicted by the testimony and the facts in this case.

bobaugust

The only thing that is wrong is Park's testimony of where he saw Kato walking and this is proven by Park testifying he saw Kato and Simpson almost Simultaneously. Kato testified he had finished his first cursory search shortly before he let the limo in. Kato testified he did not return to the location of where Park said he saw him standing by the north walkway. You give credit to the Park's estimates of seconds as being more reliable, then so be it. That testimony and the phone records prove that Kato did not have time in between to do his first cursory search. End of story for me.

[William Anthony]

I disagree. A logical inference is based on facts such as Park’s telephone records and Park’s testimony to infer that Park saw Kaelin shortly after Kaelin heard the noises and left his room to go to the south path. No one ever asked Kaelin if or why he stopped there. Kaelin may have simply paused there considering if he should let the limo in. He decided not to saying that he thought Simpson would do it and then continued on his way.

What you are evidently relying on William to create so called reasonable doubt are incorrect facts and your imagination while you ignore what Allan Park testified to. I don’t believe that creates reasonable doubt, all it creates is an incorrect opinion. All because you evidently refuse to look at or understand the layout of the Rockingham estate.

bobaugust

See post above and end of story for me. :seeya:

[martin II]

************************************************** *******
I was bothered (and continue to be bothered) by the fact that many pro defense (of Simpson) people seem to think that every piece of evidence should be processed. I have read that most criminologists usually pick up a representative sample of the blood. I also think that Mr Fung made a lot of mistakes on this case.
I don't know whether Fung missed the blood on the air conditioner because he thougt there was enough evidence without it, or what, but I thought there was enough evidence to convict, if the DA's had presented all of it.

I ifind it strange that you spend so much time focusing on what were probably careless mistakes by the police and ignoring such coincidences as:
Nicole predicted her death at the hands of OJS.
Guilty behavior on the part of OJS afterwards.
The fact that the killer used rare gloves and rare shoes. These shoes and gloves were so rare that there were probably not much more than 100 of either of his size in the country. There is photorgaphic evidence that OJS at one tiime wore shoes and gloves like this; but his pair of gloves seem to have disappeared. I think he wore them in the 1993 football season. Of course there are pages of coincidences that we have to buy into to belieGreenice, I think you posted something about fortunate coincidences for the prosecution, but I think the list is much shorter.


Correction to your post'
The glove was not rare at all Bloomingdales purchased 10,ooo pair.Bloomingdales did not sell the shoes to oj. The gloves were not cold weather gloves as you have previously said. they were thin dress leather gloves not for cold weather yet you believe oj wore them in cold weather.

You make many comments and state them as fact yet at the same time you say you have no proof or 'I don't know" It is difficult to know what you know as fact and what you are just guessing on.

[GreenIce]

What evidence was there of Nicole having a guest there before her death, and gotten intimate?!

Was this after Mezzaluna going home with her kids? This was not about rape, it was passion and rage and very personal. The 'controlling' was done with a knife instead of forced sex. First you said she had a guest then you talk about a rape..where are you going with that?

Her stomach contents were not purposely 'dumped'. They did disappear though. No one knows how. :cool:

Old Soul,

I posted basically that the procedure for checking a woman for sperm is called a "rape kit". However, this procedure is not strictly or is only done when a woman has been sexually assaulted. The results of the rape kit may indicate that the woman may have been sexually active right before the time of death. The point is, this was another valuable tool in helping define the time of death that the police declined to use.

Also, it is not the responsibility for the LAPD to dictate to the medical examiner on what they should be looking for inside a victim. The fact that Lange or Vanatter did not believe that Nicole was sexually assaulted had no bearing or should have no bearing on the standard procedures of the ME.

In Shelia Weller's Book, she says that Nicole was expecting a guest that night. Faye Resnick also said that Nicole did or was going to Marcus Allen that night. A man's jean jacket was found in the kitchen and then disappeared. The candles, the music, the setting could have easily have been described as a romantic setting--wasn't that Riske's impression of it? The candles around the tub.

Old Soul, how does Nicole's stomach contents just disappear? Don't you find that odd? When you add up all the "evidence" that wasn't collected and lost, that should be an extremely impressive list and one that makes it clear, IMO, that the evidence in this case can't be trusted.

[William Anthony]

The key blood evidence were fresh blood drops found at Bundy.

bobaugust

You have called me wrong and we have had this discussion before about the Bundy blood being fresh. There was testimony that the blood appeared fresh, which you then came back and said if it appeared fresh it was fresh, remember?
There was no testimony that the blood found at Bundy was fresh. I am determined to maintain an air of civility, at least for the moment, with you no matter how hard you make the feat. I will say that you are mistaken.

[martin II]

************************

Greenice, I think you are too quick to think you understand other people's motivations. You have in recent posts claimed you feel sure that both the detectives (I don't know which, probably Vannatter and Lange) and Marcia Clark had dishonest motivation. I don't claim that any of them did an outstanding job, but people usually make a mistake when the act like they can read the minds of people they disagree with.

I think I can conclude that Simpson was guilty partly because of the fact that after the trial he showed more anger against Fred Goldman than against the police. Also some news media people noticed that Mr. Simpson seemed to be show more anger against the Goldmans than against Mark Fuhrman. I conclude from this that he was guilty. I believe you have disagreed with this point of view. One of OJS's nieces, Terri (Terry ?) Baker also noticed OJS's lack of anger against the detectives.

I must admit I haven't studied what the detectives and M. Clark said or wrote as much as some people have. But I think if there had been any red flags in their behavior as obvious as OJS's anger against the Goldmans and lack of anger against the police, I would have noticed it.

I may have been wrong in paying so much attention to the fact that very few football people were supportive of OJS. I thought I read somewhere soon after his arrest that most of his team mates thought he was guilty because he became so angry against the women in his life, and because he used uppers and downers. I don't know where I read this. I thought I read it in Sports Illustrated, but I looked it up, and couldn't find it there. In any case there has been so much written about the man that a lot of it must be untrue. I must admit that didn't read any books that gave much weight to either of these factors. I don't think I could find anything in print about OJS's relationships with his team mates if I had to win a bet.

I don't know anything about who visited him in jail. I was only noticing how few people said anything like: ". I didn't think he was that kind of guy". Of course even if there were team mates who defended him, that wouldn't make him innocent, and lack of social popularity wouldn't make him guilty. Pete Rose was another athlete who was greatly loved by the public and the press, but not by his team mates. I believe that OJS did use uppers and downers, but I have no proof

Regarding the time estimates. I thought there were two other methods of estimating the time of death. The first was in retracing Ron Goldman’s route from the restaurant to the location of the crime. I believe that this got somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. The second method was the autopsy data. Both autopsies gave time intervals for the time of death, that is an earliest possible time, and the latest possible time. I think the mid point of these two time intervals was about the same. Somewhere between 10:15 an 10:45. These time intervals may be in the autopsies, so someone could perhaps cut me down, or check on this.

One correction to your post.

From the day oj was arrested Fred went on many tv interviews claiming ojs guilt. using very strong language.Before the trial started, i guess you feel oj should have had mad love for him for this.No one know what Ron did from the time he left work to the time we think he arrived at Bundy.

[William Anthony]

Correction to your post'
The glove was not rare at all Bloomingdales purchased 10,ooo pair.Bloomingdales did not sell the shoes to oj. The gloves were not cold weather gloves as you have previously said. they were thin dress leather gloves not for cold weather yet you believe oj wore them in cold weather.

You make many comments and state them as fact yet at the same time you say you have no proof or 'I don't know" It is difficult to know what you know as fact and what you are just guessing on.

I don't remember who the poster was but a similar post was made about the gloves and shoes, to which I asked what types of shoes and gloves would be appropriate to wear to murder and no one has answered that question. There are petty thieves and those who commit grand larceny. :)

[GreenIce]

I'm sorry you're frustrated but maybe now you know how I feel about some of your posts. You say you never post untruths as fact -- but it's not true that Ron's blood wasn't found until months later. Where do you get this kind of information?

I don't know what you want me to say about the blood on the air conditioner. #1 Fung didn't collect it. #2 Dr. Lee collected it #3 the presumptive test for blood on the sample was positive. #4 Dr. Lee did no further testing possibly because there wasn't enough to test. That's the sum of what I know about the blood on the AC unit. What exactly do you want me to surmise from this information? I can surmise nothing; therefore, I move on to other evidence.

TV,

Ron's blood was found in the Bronco around mid August. Michelle Kessler "wished" Fung had taken more of a sample from the inside she then sends him out to get more. In this "more", he gets a tiny sample of Ron's blood in a mixture. However, before he goes back do this, there were how many people inside that Bronco and how many did not see the blood?

When did the lab say they tested the "second" round of samples from the Bronco?

Bottom line, there is no way to prove that what was on the AC unit was blood. There is no proof that if this was blood to prove it was human or from an animal. However, people keep on insisting that this spot that was tested for blood is in fact blood and it is OJ Simpson's and therefore that is proof he was back there that night. The only proof of blood found behind that wall was a on an over hanging wire and that blood was not human.

[GreenIce]

GreenIce, why do keep saying Ron’s blood wasn’t found in the Bronco until months later? You know that’s not true.

What two expert defense witnesses said the blood could have been planted on the sock? And whose blood do you think they said could have been planted, Simpson’s or Nicole’s?

Collin Yamauchi didn’t spill any of Simpson’s blood on the killer’s glove. Yamauchi testified that when he opened Simpson’s reference sample using a chem-wipe he held with in his gloved hands some blood soaked through the chem-wipe to his gloves. Yamauchi disposed of those gloves and put on clean gloves well before he worked on the evidence glove.

The key blood evidence were fresh blood drops found at Bundy. Blood drops that were seen when the bodies were first discovered and later when tested found to be Simpson’s blood.

bobaugust

Mr. August,

Actually, there were 3 witness about the blood the sock--Dr. Gary Sims, who said that he could not say when or how the blood got on the sock and he did not understand why it was not seen well before August. Dr. Lee also testified about this and made a comment on where the blood was located on the sock and I can't remember if it was the expert who Vanatter refused to shake hands with or Dr. McDonnell. The only counter Clark had to this was to suggest that Nicole reached up, under the pant leg and grab the leg. This is just to far out to even consider. IMO.

Did you expect Collin Y. to say, "yeah, I spilled some of the blood and it could have gotten on the glove but please don't tell my boss or let him watch today's testimony?". And if I remember correctly, he volunteered this information. Bottom line, Collin Y, was another state witness who fell in to the "They Suck" category. How many times can the DA's use this and expect people to be confident in with their work and the results?

Again, do you expect any cop or state witness to say the blood drops they saw were "old"? What about the other five other blood drops that were found but did not match Nicole's, Ron's or Simpson's? How could this blood appeared fresh when Fung never tested it until hours and hours later?

You never have explained how these same police officers who saw these blood drops, didn't see the bloody fingerprint on the back gate. Well in American Tragedy, it does say that Riske did in fact see a smudge on the back gate--so how was this missed?

[GreenIce]

One correction to your post.

From the day oj was arrested Fred went on many tv interviews claiming ojs guilt. using very strong language.Before the trial started, i guess you feel oj should have had mad love for him for this.No one know what Ron did from the time he left work to the time we think he arrived at Bundy.

Martin,

You really can't blame the Goldmans or the Browns about their comments in regards to Simpson's guilt. We don't know what the family was told about the evidence in the case. I believe at one time it was said that Nicole's breasts were slashed and apparently that was what convinced some members of the family and friends of Simpson's guilt.

The Goldmans did the same thing that Garcetti and Clark did. They had every reason to believe the police were telling them the truth. Remember what Cochran said in his closing statements while glancing over at the Goldmans?

[William Anthony]

Originally Posted by fgump2 View Post
************************************************** *******
I was bothered (and continue to be bothered) by the fact that many pro defense (of Simpson) people seem to think that every piece of evidence should be processed.

Imho, a good rule of thumb is, if you see something at a crime scene which is at or near the location of the bodies, or is in the path of other things considered to be evidence, collect it.

[martin II]

Martin,

You really can't blame the Goldmans or the Browns about their comments in regards to Simpson's guilt. We don't know what the family was told about the evidence in the case. I believe at one time it was said that Nicole's breasts were slashed and apparently that was what convinced some members of the family and friends of Simpson's guilt.

The Goldmans did the same thing that Garcetti and Clark did. They had every reason to believe the police were telling them the truth. Remember what Cochran said in his closing statements while glancing over at the Goldmans?

I agree that the prosecution may have told fred untruths about the strength of their case but i think fred was old enough to know he should never go out on a limb like that. His comments of for sure of ojs guilt only made it more difficult for himself to accept the verdict.

[martin II]

TV,

Ron's blood was found in the Bronco around mid August. Michelle Kessler "wished" Fung had taken more of a sample from the inside she then sends him out to get more. In this "more", he gets a tiny sample of Ron's blood in a mixture. However, before he goes back do this, there were how many people inside that Bronco and how many did not see the blood?

When did the lab say they tested the "second" round of samples from the Bronco?

Bottom line, there is no way to prove that what was on the AC unit was blood. There is no proof that if this was blood to prove it was human or from an animal. However, people keep on insisting that this spot that was tested for blood is in fact blood and it is OJ Simpson's and therefore that is proof he was back there that night. The only proof of blood found behind that wall was a on an over hanging wire and that blood was not human.

There was ONE bent wire found on the fence a season later when the growth was trimmed by a gardner using all kinds of cutting machines to cut the growth. There is no proof when that ONE wire was bent or what caused it to be bent.it could have been bent at installation.

[martin II]

I don't remember who the poster was but a similar post was made about the gloves and shoes, to which I asked what types of shoes and gloves would be appropriate to wear to murder and no one has answered that question. There are petty thieves and those who commit grand larceny. :)

The gloves were were not expensive when compared to prices of simular gloves in various shops.455.00is a medium priced dress glove and they were not cold weather gloves as has been stated.

[Kate Sachel]

She was still suffering through withdrawl on that Saturday. He saw her and she was not doing well.

Thank you, and that leads me to another question. You stated that she still looked rough when she finally talked to Marcia Clark. However, Marcia Clark didn't state anything of the sort when she spoke of her recollection of first meeting and speaking with Faye. Can you tell me where you got that?

Kate