Caylee Anthony Case Discussion Only

[javahog]

It's not flammable and has no flash point, but it is a poison. WTF ever made this drug popular among the young partiers who use it? You'd think they'd at least be concerned about their own health.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chloroform/recognition.html

And you'd think that Casey had plenty of other people's money to buy something safer to use for a babysitter.

Its in the mixing/production of it that its exothermic (I won't put a link to that since I don't want to direct anyone to the production information), needs to be cooled with ice, etc. As for its popularity, let's start a rumor that gelding oneself can make you high, it might thin the herd. Babysitter money would buy a lot of cocktails? IDK:shrug:

[deacon]

It's not flammable and has no flash point, but it is a poison. WTF ever made this drug popular among the young partiers who use it? You'd think they'd at least be concerned about their own health.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/healthguidelines/chloroform/recognition.html

And you'd think that Casey had plenty of other people's money to buy something safer to use for a babysitter.

Excuse me, I was looking at the wrong MSDS.:D They either don't know what they are using or they don't really care. I guess that would break down to either ignorant or stupid.:shrug:

[Peachallie]

Excuse me, I was looking at the wrong MSDS.:D They either don't know what they are using or they don't really care. I guess that would break down to either ignorant or stupid.:shrug:
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I believe that sums it up. Probably both. Somebody said use it to keep children and/or bothersome adults knocked & other idiots followed suit. Reading about it more leads me to think that perhaps death from the use could be a 2nd degree-life sentence act. I'm glad more about it was posted, and I looked up further details.

[lorettalockhorn]

RE: Posts 57, 58, and 59; I'm all for involuntary sterilization in certain cases.

[deputydi]

Speculation but no confirmation. I enjoyed NG tonight. No questions or opinions, just tapes.
Gator
Hearing all those tapes without interruption made Casey's total lack of emotion so obvious. She almost sounded like she was reporting a lost toothbrush. Even when they called her on the lies her tone never changed. She didn't get angry, she didn't cry or apologize for misleading the officers and she just sounded flat.

Why did she keep insisting that she last saw Caylee on June 9 when there is picture proof that she was visiting her great grandfather a week later? Those "circles" she claimed to be running in all must have led to Fusion. This lying btch makes me sick.

[Peachallie]

[QUOTE=deputydi;9148454]Hearing all those tapes without interruption made Casey's total lack of emotion so obvious. She almost sounded like she was reporting a lost toothbrush. Even when they called her on the lies her tone never changed. She didn't get angry, she didn't cry or apologize for misleading the officers and she just sounded flat.
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The vast majority of those charged with 1st degree murder do not enrich the lives of others with their presence. She's a bum that was glad the child no longer took up her party time(.) That does not mean she killed Caylee Anthony or meant to if she did. I wish she plead, get enough years to keep her at Lowell til she dies and then the questions would be answered. Anyone know when the toxicology report will be released?

[Justice Denied?]

So you are on the (totally tainted) jury. What new bit of evidence would clear Casey Anthony for you...Someone else's prints on the duct tape and none of hers? Proof the body was moved while she was incarcerated? Someone proving that THAT Zenaida existed?

Just curious...

I want to know how the real murderer got Caylee's body into the trunk of Casey's car and back out again without Casey noticing.

The only thing that would clear Casey is far as I'm concerned is for Zanny to showup and confessto what she's done.

[lorettalockhorn]

Hearing all those tapes without interruption made Casey's total lack of emotion so obvious. She almost sounded like she was reporting a lost toothbrush. Even when they called her on the lies her tone never changed. She didn't get angry, she didn't cry or apologize for misleading the officers and she just sounded flat.

Why did she keep insisting that she last saw Caylee on June 9 when there is picture proof that she was visiting her great grandfather a week later? Those "circles" she claimed to be running in all must have led to Fusion. This lying btch makes me sick.

This is an interesting article on inappropriate affect in narcissism:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq41.html

& the link to Warped Reality and Retroactive Emotional Content:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq39.html

[One2Snoop]

The Anthonys have removed all the signs and pictures from their house and cars. Still no date for a second examination of the remains or burial.

The only time they have been seen was leaving for chuch on Sunday morning. I bet the only one who enjoyed their Christmas dinner was the Liar.

Gator

A sad situation for all involved except the liar, no matter which way you look at it. :(

[lorettalockhorn]

Prints or tissue on the duct tape would at least make me think that she had an accomplice. (And I would assume those prints would set off a whole new investigation, or bring to light one that we don't currently know about.)

[QUOTE=deputydi;9148454]Hearing all those tapes without interruption made Casey's total lack of emotion so obvious. She almost sounded like she was reporting a lost toothbrush. Even when they called her on the lies her tone never changed. She didn't get angry, she didn't cry or apologize for misleading the officers and she just sounded flat.
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The vast majority of those charged with 1st degree murder do not enrich the lives of others with their presence. She's a bum that was glad the child no longer took up her party time(.) That does not mean she killed Caylee Anthony or meant to if she did. I wish she plead, get enough years to keep her at Lowell til she dies and then the questions would be answered. Anyone know when the toxicology report will be released?

Not sure when the toxicology report is expected, but most of the mavens make it sound like it won't reveal much of anything. Honestly, we may learn more from the entomologist(s).

[mu8shark]

Hi Shark, I didn't mean to suggest jury nullification in this case - Peach was stating that jurors have to follow the law as given to them by the judge and I was trying to make the point that jurors will not necessarily follow the rules as given, but would also use their logic, and common sense and emotion.

Gator Absolutely on that logic and common sense thing. It is the really what a jury does from a human nature standpoint. Obviously they look at the evidence and the law, but when they analyze the evidence, I agree they interpret through a human lens,' does that make sense, is that what a normal person would have done, is that how I or most people would react 'and it is just those things that are going to get her in trouble. I have to say that the fact that she looked up the 100th episode of One Tree Hill that is about a nanny kidnapping a child to me as a juror would just be huge along with the other evidence and given the story she told. I mean what the chances a few months before that she looks up this , neck breaking, chloroform, death by inhalation and Caylee is quote kidnapped by a nanny and there are huge quantities of chloroform in that trunk? As a juror no one has to tell me that is not a huge karmic coincidence. You know in the Peterson trial, Scott that is, the jury was not only struck by his lies but when he told Amber on Dec 9th he had lost his wife and what do you know on Dec 24 he really did? So I totally agree. If anyone thinks the jury room is all law and evidence it is not , there is really even an instruction about common sense and I forget how it goes but it goes. I so agree.!

[mu8shark]

Hearing all those tapes without interruption made Casey's total lack of emotion so obvious. She almost sounded like she was reporting a lost toothbrush. Even when they called her on the lies her tone never changed. She didn't get angry, she didn't cry or apologize for misleading the officers and she just sounded flat.

Why did she keep insisting that she last saw Caylee on June 9 when there is picture proof that she was visiting her great grandfather a week later? Those "circles" she claimed to be running in all must have led to Fusion. This lying btch makes me sick. One of the things that struck me in those tapes was that she has no good reason to wait so long to report it. She talks about how she trusted Zanny, had known her a year, how she loved Caylee and how she never said anything weird like, I wish she was my child and even praised the way she was raised, which made me think of this question, If you were to go to a babysitters and your child is not there and there is no phone call or even a connected phone all of a sudden, why would your first thought be 'Oh if I call the police, Zanny may hurt or kill her?" I would think you would think or I would, what if Zanny had a wreck and is at the bottom of a ravine or the car was in a waterway? Or what if somebody abducted Zanny or killed or carjacked Zanny or Zanny is injured or sick or had a seizure? I better call the police. Why would you immediately say to yourself, this woman I have known for four years, who was always loving and kind and concerned and never criticized me as a mother all of a sudden kill my child if I went to the police? I mean that makes zero sense. Obviously I stopped believing in the Zanny long ago ,but until I heard all those tapes, I never realized what a favorable light she portrayed Zanny in. Maybe thirty days later you would have a different , more negative opinion of the nanny but not on day one., not after a four year problem free relationship supposedly with this woman

[lorettalockhorn]

Absolutely on that logic and common sense thing. It is the really what a jury does from a human nature standpoint. Obviously they look at the evidence and the law, but when they analyze the evidence, I agree they interpret through a human lens,' does that make sense, is that what a normal person would have done, is that how I or most people would react 'and it is just those things that are going to get her in trouble. I have to say that the fact that she looked up the 100th episode of One Tree Hill that is about a nanny kidnapping a child to me as a juror would just be huge along with the other evidence and given the story she told. I mean what the chances a few months before that she looks up this , neck breaking, chloroform, death by inhalation and Caylee is quote kidnapped by a nanny and there are huge quantities of chloroform in that trunk? As a juror no one has to tell me that is not a huge karmic coincidence. You know in the Peterson trial, Scott that is, the jury was not only struck by his lies but when he told Amber on Dec 9th he had lost his wife and what do you know on Dec 24 he really did? So I totally agree. If anyone thinks the jury room is all law and evidence it is not , there is really even an instruction about common sense and I forget how it goes but it goes. I so agree.!

Absolutely makes sense, otherwise they could employ a computer or throw the I Ching.

Florida-standard jury instructions for criminal cases:

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtml

[mu8shark]

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I believe that sums it up. Probably both. Somebody said use it to keep children and/or bothersome adults knocked & other idiots followed suit. Reading about it more leads me to think that perhaps death from the use could be a 2nd degree-life sentence act. I'm glad more about it was posted, and I looked up further details. But using chloroform on a child is a felony and if you kill a child in the commission of a felony it is called felony murder and can carry the same penalty as first degree murder. If they find she killed her using chloroform even if it was an accident, if the jury decides that, legally the can't convict her of second degree. Not in the state of Florida. I am not saying that is what they will find but if they do, there is not a wishy washy , part of the law that would drop it to second degree. There just is not it is felony murder.

[lorettalockhorn]

One of the things that struck me in those tapes was that she has no good reason to wait so long to report it. She talks about how she trusted Zanny, had known her a year, how she loved Caylee and how she never said anything weird like, I wish she was my child and even praised the way she was raised, which made me think of this question, If you were to go to a babysitters and your child is not there and there is no phone call or even a connected phone all of a sudden, why would your first thought be 'Oh if I call the police, Zanny may hurt or kill her?" I would think you would think or I would, what if Zanny had a wreck and is at the bottom of a ravine or the car was in a waterway? Or what if somebody abducted Zanny or killed or carjacked Zanny or Zanny is injured or sick or had a seizure? I better call the police. Why would you immediately say to yourself, this woman I have known for four years, who was always loving and kind and concerned and never criticized me as a mother all of a sudden kill my child if I went to the police? I mean that makes zero sense. Obviously I stopped believing in the Zanny long ago ,but until I heard all those tapes, I never realized what a favorable light she portrayed Zanny in. Maybe thirty days later you would have a different , more negative opinion of the nanny but not on day one., not after a four year problem free relationship supposedly with this woman

Poor Casey. If only Zenaida had kidnapped Caylee before the computer searches and before the squirrels crawled up under her car, and before the pizza turned into a stink bomb; she wouldn't be in this sticky wicket. Oh well, at least she didn't have to eat cole slaw for Christmas dinner.

[mu8shark]

Absolutely makes sense, otherwise they could employ a computer or throw the I Ching.

Florida-standard jury instructions for criminal cases:

http://www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury_instructions/instructions.shtmlI once got into this argument on a board with a guy who said he was a lawyer and that jurors never were supposed to use common sense and logic!! And I knew then he was no lawyer and had never seen the inside of a courtroom. Although I am not a lawyer, obviously when you are trying to determine the credibility of the witnesses , who after all deliver most of the evidence, you absolutely use a human lens .I toally agree, otherwise they would use computers as jurors. !!

[lorettalockhorn]

But using chloroform on a child is a felony and if you kill a child in the commission of a felony it is called felony murder and can carry the same penalty as first degree murder. If they find she killed her using chloroform even if it was an accident, if the jury decides that, legally the can't convict her of second degree. Not in the state of Florida. I am not saying that is what they will find but if they do, there is not a wishy washy , part of the law that would drop it to second degree. There just is not it is felony murder.

I've wondered why she wasn't charged with false imprisonment, and if it carries the same sentence as kidnapping in FL. Just in case the jury decides that the chloroform in the trunk was the result of decomposition and not from what was administered, they would still have a felony charge to go along with Caylee's death.

[mu8shark]

Poor Casey. If only Zenaida had kidnapped Caylee before the computer searches and before the squirrels crawled up under her car, and before the pizza turned into a stink bomb; she wouldn't be in this sticky wicket. Oh well, at least she didn't have to eat cole slaw for Christmas dinner.Loretta that is about the 100th time you have made me laugh since I have been on this board. LOL. One more if only, if only she had not been a dumb ass selfish skank!

[lorettalockhorn]

I once got into this argument on a board with a guy who said he was a lawyer and that jurors never were supposed to use common sense and logic!! And I knew then he was no lawyer and had never seen the inside of a courtroom. Although I am not a lawyer, obviously when you are trying to determine the credibility of the witnesses , who after all deliver most of the evidence, you absolutely use a human lens .I toally agree, otherwise they would use computers as jurors. !!

Oh hell, of course they know good and well that people draw on logic, common sense and personal experience, or they wouldn't bother with voir dire.

[lorettalockhorn]

Loretta that is about the 100th time you have made me laugh since I have been on this board. LOL. One more if only, if only she had not been a dumb ass selfish skank!

Doncha just want to jack slap her? It's just amazing to me that this skank could do something so heinous as kill beautiful Caylee and come up with such a lame defense. Couldn't she at least give us an effectual scenario?

[mu8shark]

I've wondered why she wasn't charged with false imprisonment, and if it carries the same sentence as kidnapping in FL. Just in case the jury decides that the chloroform in the trunk was the result of decomposition and not from what was administered, they would still have a felony charge to go along with Caylee's death. Well the chemist Jeff Flowers said that much could not come from decomp or from mixing to clean something, however and this is the however we all know and love, paid experts will say anything and you can bet if they got ole Jeff to testify for the prosection, somebody, somewhere for a price would say, Oh it was decomp, it could be , maybe . possibly, narrowly be decomp or a cleaning fluid. What is going to kill her is she looked it up on her comp. She would have been better off looking up all this crap at the library computers. I am just saying. That being said and because I feel like sharing my new theory, I think at the end of it all, the forensics won't amount to a hill of beans if the experts cancel it out. And the jury will be left with, yes you guessed it their own common sense as to which forensic story fits the behavior evidence and what do the lies do? They point to a guilty Casey. I know you can't just convict on lies alone but when they sort it out, I think back to the Scott Peterson trial, what keeps ringing in my ears had nothing to do with forensics, but the jury said the lies got him, hoping it kills Casey too.

[mu8shark]

One thing I can't stop thinking about is the fingerprints on that tape. Because if that is there, there is no way to say that anyone else put that body there and if she put that body there, I just don't see how they can begin to spout , she is innocent. . By the way I was reading a true crime book where in some states there is this unique plea where you say, I am not admitting I did it, but you know I think the jury will say so and so I plead guilty. It is not no contest , it is slightly different and I am going to go see if I can find the technical term for it and if I were Jose, I tell Casey to try and go that route, at least she could say face with the folks. It is called an Alford plea but not sure if Florida allows it. Here is the exact definition In the law of the United States, an Alford plea is a plea in criminal court in which the defendant does not admit the act and asserts innocence, but admits that sufficient evidence exists with which the prosecution could likely convince a judge or jury to find the defendant guilty. Upon receiving an Alford plea from a defendant, the court may immediately pronounce the defendant guilty and impose sentence as if the defendant had otherwise been convicted of the crime; however, in many states, such as Massachusetts, a plea which "admits sufficient facts" more typically results in the case being continued without a finding and later dismissed.[citation needed]

The Alford plea differs slightly from the nolo contendere ("no contest") plea. An Alford plea is simply a form of a guilty plea, and, as with other guilty pleas, the judge must see there is some factual basis for the plea. Therefore, a defendant's prior conviction via an Alford plea can be considered in future trials; and it will count as a "strike" if a three strikes law applies. On the other hand, a nolo contendere plea is in no way an admission of guilt, and it cannot be introduced in future trials as evidence of incorrigibility. However, courts do not have to accept a plea of nolo contendere, and this plea is not permitted in some states.

The Alford plea originated in the United States Supreme Court case of North Carolina v. Alford (1970), 400 US 25. Under subsequent case law, an Alford plea generally has the same effect as a plea of guilty with respect to sentencing, and use of the conviction as an aggravating factor if the defendant is later convicted of another offense.

[One2Snoop]

One thing I can't stop thinking about is the fingerprints on that tape. Because if that is there, there is no way to say that anyone else put that body there and if she put that body there, I just don't see how they can begin to spout , she is innocent. . By the way I was reading a true crime book where in some states there is this unique plea where you say, I am not admitting I did it, but you know I think the jury will say so and so I plead guilty. It is not no contest , it is slightly different and I am going to go see if I can find the technical term for it and if I were Jose, I tell Casey to try and go that route, at least she could say face with the folks.

Alford Plea?

[One2Snoop]

In an Alford Plea, the criminal defendant does not admit the act, but admits that the prosecution could likely prove the charge. The court will pronounce the defendant guilty. The defendant may plead guilty yet not admit all the facts that comprise the crime. An Alford plea allows defendant to plead guilty even while unable or unwilling to admit guilt.

It goes into more detail at the link: http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/alford-plea/

bump...

[lighthousedazy]

Poor Casey. If only Zenaida had kidnapped Caylee before the computer searches and before the squirrels crawled up under her car, and before the pizza turned into a stink bomb; she wouldn't be in this sticky wicket. Oh well, at least she didn't have to eat cole slaw for Christmas dinner. In my opinion, if a Zenaida Gonzales had taken Caylee, I think the lovely little girl Caylee would still be alive. No ransom note or pleas, etc. Most Mexican folks I know are God fearing Catholics and the Anthonys are not rich and could not come up with a ransom unless assisted by LE, but then again caysee did not notify LE for 31 days until she was forced by her mother. jmo

[lorettalockhorn]

One thing I can't stop thinking about is the fingerprints on that tape. Because if that is there, there is no way to say that anyone else put that body there and if she put that body there, I just don't see how they can begin to spout , she is innocent. . By the way I was reading a true crime book where in some states there is this unique plea where you say, I am not admitting I did it, but you know I think the jury will say so and so I plead guilty. It is not no contest , it is slightly different and I am going to go see if I can find the technical term for it and if I were Jose, I tell Casey to try and go that route, at least she could say face with the folks. It is called an Alford plea but not sure if Florida allows it.

Guessing that's the Alford plea that has been so popular to discuss here lately. You're probably right about the weight of the forensics and the common sense and the lies. Unless the scheme team comes up with some miraculous defense that Casey wasn't willing to share with LE before it was too damned late, I think Casey's going down. Got my fingers crossed on that duct tape. Surely it's been tested and re-tested by now. What we need is a leak.

[mu8shark]

I don't know what you mean by "the prosecution has the burden of EXCLUDING all reasonable doubt". The pros must prove two things -- that a murder was committed and that Casey did it. It is the responsibility of the defense to try and create reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors. This is their uphill battle. They don't have to "prove" anything.

With what we know right now about the computer searches, the amount of chloroform detected in the car, the odor of a decomposing body, Casey not reporting the "kidnapping" for 31 days (and only reporting it then because her mother forced the issue), changing her story about how the "kidnapping" occurred, and her multitude of lies, what makes you think a 1st degree murder conviction would be difficult? I am more convinced of her guilt this early on than I was of Scott's.

As for tacking extra time on for her other charges -- she would have to be tried and convicted of them first. That probably won't happen. IMO they have her dead to rights on a murder charge and, once that conviction is rendered, the other charges will be a moot issue.

BTW, it's Casey Anthony, not Casey Anderson. In this particular case the defense is going to have to come up with a good alternative theory. I think that is their uphill battle. Although as I have said many times, technically the defense has to prove nothing , in this case because of so many circumstancial problems Casey created, her behavior, the comp searches, the dead smell she herself admitted in texts, the jury is not going to be the usual well LE may have messed up by not finding the body early and the forensics might be wonky. The defense will have to , in my opinion present a great SOD did it . Some other dude did it defense. Also it might be nice for Casey if Casey Anderson did do it. Maybe that could be the name of her new Nanny. PS I agree when you look back at Scotts case, really all the prosecution had was the phone calls and a lot of lies. This case has so much more to recommend conviction

[mu8shark]

Guessing that's the Alford plea that has been so popular to discuss here lately. You're probably right about the weight of the forensics and the common sense and the lies. Unless the scheme team comes up with some miraculous defense that Casey wasn't willing to share with LE before it was too damned late, I think Casey's going down. Got my fingers crossed on that duct tape. Surely it's been tested and re-tested by now. What we need is a leak. Did you guys already discuss Alford, i am just now catching up and sometimes weirdly i do that backwards. Damn I thought my Alford thing was original? LOL Can't they just give us one little leak? Just one more teeny tiny leak and we won't ask for one more thing!!

[One2Snoop]

Did you guys already discuss Alford, i am just now catching up and sometimes weirdly i do that backwards. Damn I thought my Alford thing was original? LOL Can't they just give us one little leak? Just one more teeny tiny leak and we won't ask for one more thing!!

Tvdinner brought it up the other day - I bumped her post with the link to alford plea on the previous page (last post). :seeya:

[mu8shark]

If the prosecution is desperate enough to be offering searches of TV show plots for evidence, the defense will make mincemeat out of the case. Casey Anthony could have researched household weapons BECAUSE she saw a TV show about them; once again, breaking the neck of a two year old requires NO research. Wait a minute, so if somebody looked up an episode of a nanny kidnapping a baby and then suddenly their baby was kidnapped by a nanny and they looked up neck breaking, chloroform , inhalation and death and then their child was missing and then found dead and the trunk was saturated with chloroform , no lightbulb would come on in your head as a juror???!!!. Hmm You must be one of those jurors who says I want a movie of the defendant commiting the crime or i acquit, because that is damning evidence.

[mu8shark]

Duct tape around the skull IS INTENT. Searches for chloroform, neck breaking, missing children sites, death by inhalation
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The duct tape could have been used to keep insects out of the mouth area AFTER death. And it takes no research for an adult to understand how to break the neck of a 2 year old, nor have the searches been tied directly to Anthony. Someone else might have used her computer. And, the medical examiner found no trauma to the bones recovered. It is doubtful the state took the death penalty off the table to be kind to Anthony, if they did, THEY should be replaced.

The state probably has a good idea about the nature of the death. So far, it looks like the death was unintentional, and crimes were committed after the death. And Anthony COULD get 60-90 years on the basis of the extra charges, and agg. manslaughter of a child. That will be the equivalent of LIFE. Duct tape around the mouth to keep insects out? LOL . I have never heard of someone killing someone and being concerned about bugs getting in the mouth of a dead person. I mean , never and I have been following true crime for a long time . If some dumb ass defense lawyer gets up in front of me and says "Well you know lots of killers are pretty concerned about getting bugs in the mouth of the victim, I gonna laugh. long and hard! Not trying to be sarcastic but a defense attorney has to do better than that, because that is comical. And on that comp, really , the defense attorney has three choices, Cindy, Lee or George or some stranger who crawled through the window or broke in and spent oodles of time on the Anthony comp logged in under Caseys name. Cindy and George both worked , not like their lard ass daughter who sat on the couch and so did Lee, so if all of those searches are done when they are gone and Casey is logged in and emailing her buddies at the same time like most of us do, that is not going to fly. I literally do not know one person who thinks some stranger has snuck in and spent time on their comp. I can hear it now on the next jail tape though. Cindy" Casey did the meter reader have a key to the house?" LOL

[mu8shark]

Tvdinner brought it up the other day - I bumped her post with the link to alford plea on the previous page (last post). :seeya:Ah okay TV dinner is a pretty smart cookie, I give em props, because I had never heard of it and it is rare.

[One2Snoop]

If the prosecution is desperate enough to be offering searches of TV show plots for evidence, the defense will make mincemeat out of the case. Casey Anthony could have researched household weapons BECAUSE she saw a TV show about them; once again, breaking the neck of a two year old requires NO research.


I wonder if Baez even knows what mincemeat is? :tongue: I don't believe the prosecution is desperate at all - I'm very confident they have all their ducks in a row and will prosecute Casey to the fullest extent of the law.

I disagree with you - it's everything brought together that paints the picture of what happened to Caylee. It doesn't have to be one specific thing IMO. CAYLEE is no longer alive and someone is responsible for her death - everything leads to Casey. JMO.

[lorettalockhorn]

Tvdinner brought it up the other day - I bumped her post with the link to alford plea on the previous page (last post). :seeya:

Also Amy cited a particular case (which I now realize that I've forgotten to look up because I'm so busy purloining other sites).


Can she take an Alford (Alferd?) plea in a murder case? I think that is what Veterinarian Wendi Davidson in TX did. Ended up w/25 years (up for parole in 12?) for murdering her husband. Did not plead guilty, but realized that her chances of being found guilty were high.


Found this on another board and am not sure that anyone here had actually seen Untraceable or posted about the details of the synopsis:

The movie "Untraceable" -- This movie contains many, many parallels to Caylee's story. Here are just a few:


Decaying body in trunk of car abandoned deliberately for someone to find.
Young single woman working long hours while her mother cares for her daughter.
Grandmother disapproves of apparent neglect of g-daughter by daughter.
Child's father is deceased and the film never shows him in picture or flashback.
The twisted killer's motive is resentment, bitterness, revenge.
The case garners national and international media attention.
The young mother and her family are in danger, but she can't tell them why.
She flees alone to a hotel for safety on the night after the killer targets her home.
The killer makes phone calls that can't be traced, using a "spoof" card.
One of the victims is tripped up through his activity on an online dating site.
As others have pointed out, the killer binds two of the victims around the mouth with duct tape.

[mu8shark]

Because neither attorney would be permitted to just throw out wild speulation to the jury. They have to show relevance and these computer searches would somehow need to be tied to the murder. I don't think they can do that -- with the possible exception of the chloroform. We'll have to wait for the tox results. Well I have to disagree with ya for once on this one. As a juror if I see someone looks up an episode where a child is kidnapped by a nanny and then two months later a child is supposedly kidnapped by a nanny, it makes perfect sense to me , someone is looking for a good story to tell the police later on. But we could debate it in the jury room!

[mu8shark]

I wonder if Baez even knows what mincemeat is? :tongue: I don't believe the prosecution is desperate at all - I'm very confident they have all their ducks in a row and will prosecute Casey to the fullest extent of the law.

JMO I wonder if Baez knows what an Alford plea is?

[mu8shark]

Also Amy cited a particular case (which I now realize that I've forgotten to look up because I'm so busy purloining other sites).





Found this on another board and am not sure that anyone here had actually seen Untraceable or posted about the details of the synopsis:

The movie "Untraceable" -- This movie contains many, many parallels to Caylee's story. Here are just a few:


Decaying body in trunk of car abandoned deliberately for someone to find.
Young single woman working long hours while her mother cares for her daughter.
Grandmother disapproves of apparent neglect of g-daughter by daughter.
Child's father is deceased and the film never shows him in picture or flashback.
The twisted killer's motive is resentment, bitterness, revenge.
The case garners national and international media attention.
The young mother and her family are in danger, but she can't tell them why.
She flees alone to a hotel for safety on the night after the killer targets her home.
The killer makes phone calls that can't be traced, using a "spoof" card.
One of the victims is tripped up through his activity on an online dating site.
As others have pointed out, the killer binds two of the victims around the mouth with duct tape.
Whoa this chick has been shopping for a good story probably before and after the death

[mu8shark]

At any rate, it's certainly no more outlandish a theory on the surface than a nanny who loved and cared for Caylee until one day she snapped and kidnapped her, consequently murdered her, framed Casey by using her key to the Ants' home and taking personal belongings, using the key to Casey's car to allow Caylee's body to decompose, dumping the body along with stolen personal property tying Casey to the crime, and finally disappearing off the face of the earth.
****************************************
It is expected of the state that their theory of the case NOT resemble a defendant's panicked excuses.

There is nothing in Florida Statutes or Rules officially termed an "Alford Plea" nor does it apply in this case; here is a synopsis of the phrase:
****************************************

But the most cited and most familiar Supreme Court case on plea bargaining is North Carolina v. Alford, 400 U.S. 25 (1970). In 1970, North Carolina law provided that a penalty of life IMPRISONMENT would attach to a plea of guilty for a capital offense, but the death penalty would attach following a jury verdict of guilty (unless the jury recommended life imprisonment). Alford faced the death penalty for first-degree murder. Although he claimed innocence on all charges (in the face of strong evidence to the contrary), Alford pleaded guilty to second-degree murder prior to trial. The prosecutor accepted the plea, and he was sentenced to 30 years' imprisonment. Alford then appealed his case, claiming that his plea was involuntary because it was principally motivated by fear of the death penalty. His conviction was reversed on appeal. However, the U. S. Supreme Court held that a guilty plea which represents a voluntary and intelligent choice when considering the alternatives available to a defendant is not "compelled" within the meaning of the Fifth Amendment just because it was entered to avoid the possibility of the death penalty. (Alford had argued that his guilty plea to a lesser charge violated the Fifth Amendment's prohibition that '"No person . . . shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.") The Supreme Court reversed the court of appeals and reinstated Alford's conviction and sentence.
*****************************************
It has never been used in a Florida case , not because it can't be, it just has not been used. It is so rare, it has not been used in many states. If the state would accept it, it could however, under Supreme court decision absolutely be used in a murder case, problem is the state may not accept any plea as their case is getting stronger and stronger as they go along and if they have fingerprints, forget any plea.

[tv]

Ah okay TV dinner is a pretty smart cookie, I give em props, because I had never heard of it and it is rare.

I can't take credit -- JusticeDenied? was asking what an Alford plea is and I supplied the link. :)

[One2Snoop]

Also Amy cited a particular case (which I now realize that I've forgotten to look up because I'm so busy purloining other sites).





Found this on another board and am not sure that anyone here had actually seen Untraceable or posted about the details of the synopsis:

The movie "Untraceable" -- This movie contains many, many parallels to Caylee's story. Here are just a few:


Decaying body in trunk of car abandoned deliberately for someone to find.
Young single woman working long hours while her mother cares for her daughter.
Grandmother disapproves of apparent neglect of g-daughter by daughter.
Child's father is deceased and the film never shows him in picture or flashback.
The twisted killer's motive is resentment, bitterness, revenge.
The case garners national and international media attention.
The young mother and her family are in danger, but she can't tell them why.
She flees alone to a hotel for safety on the night after the killer targets her home.
The killer makes phone calls that can't be traced, using a "spoof" card.
One of the victims is tripped up through his activity on an online dating site.
As others have pointed out, the killer binds two of the victims around the mouth with duct tape.



I remember reading about this but I don't remember if we discussed it here. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. :beer:

[mu8shark]

Well, Baez himself does tend to speak legal-babble and goes in non-sequitur fashion. Maybe Mrs. Kenney-Baden should be in charge of lurking and posting. Loretta again, just too funny!

[lorettalockhorn]

I remember reading about this but I don't remember if we discussed it here. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. :beer:

Got that from a Monkey; she did a really good job of summarizing for us! :beer:

Loretta again, just too funny!

Does my sarcasm make my butt look big? :hat:

[lighthousedazy]

I wonder if Baez knows what an Alford plea is?Just my opinion, but I doubt it.

[mu8shark]

*******************************************
Such a sad situation, a helpless child never wanted in life except by her one set of grandparents. And they torn between responsibity to her & hope the useless child of theirs would grow up. Now, they are left with a selfish adult child, who still seems to feel SHE is the victim. No verdict can make things right.*

(*Once again, my personal feelings are that 50 in Lowell for Casey Anderson would not be unjust. That could change of course.)Can someone explain who Casey Anderson is? Is she the new Nanny?LOL

[lorettalockhorn]

I remember reading about this but I don't remember if we discussed it here. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. :beer:

Oops, she also posted this:

The movie "Jumper" -- There are a lot of connections in this movie, too, but one stands out: The phrase,

"With (great?) power comes great consequence"

which Casey wrote as part of her famous "diary of days" myspace post (written 7/2 or 7/5, posted 7/7), was originally a tagline for the movie "Jumper." Because of its similarity to a Spiderman line, "With great power comes great responsibility" (or something like that), the studio later changed the Jumper tagline to "Everywhere is possible."

[lighthousedazy]

Got that from a Monkey; she did a really good job of summarizing for us! :beer:



Does my sarcasm make my butt look big? :hat:Loretta, were you watching the "What not to wear" marathon? No, I don't think your but looks big.

[One2Snoop]

can someone explain who casey anderson is? Is she the new nanny?lol
lol!

[One2Snoop]

Just my opinion, but I doubt it.

Agree! :beer:

[applesandorange]

Okay something came to me while watching NG tonight. I thought I'd run it past all of you. Remember Casey showing LE all those supposed apartments Zanny lived at and saying that's where Caylee was? Well I know the old folks home was right across the street from one her boyfriends apartments. What if she had her car parked there and Caylee in the trunk and she was telling LE that's where Caylee was. Maybe she showed them everywhere she parked with Caylee in the trunk. That's where Zanny lived. That's where I dropped Caylee off with Zanny. If every supposed Zanny apartment is near a friends house this could be the case no?

[mu8shark]

It has never been used in a Florida case , not because it can't be, it just has not been used. It is so rare, it has not been used in many states. If the state would accept it, it could however, under Supreme court decision absolutely be used in a murder case, problem is the state may not accept any plea as their case is getting stronger and stronger as they go along and if they have fingerprints, forget any plea. Correcting myself and answering my own post. Shark you are wrong, the Alford Plea has been used in Florida in at least three cases as there are at least three in the Florida Appeals court, too lazy to look up if they are murder cases but if it is the same as most other states who allow this, it would not be illegal to use this plea in a murder case if the state accepted the plea first.

[lorettalockhorn]

Loretta, were you watching the "What not to wear" marathon? No, I don't think your but looks big.

I've never seen that show, and since I mainly wear PJs, nighties, and peignoirs, I don't want to see it. :eek: They might recommend that I do something crazy. Like get dressed. LMAO

[mu8shark]

Okay something came to me while watching NG tonight. I thought I'd run it past all of you. Remember Casey showing LE all those supposed apartments Zanny lived at and saying that's where Caylee was? Well I know the old folks home was right across the street from one her boyfriends apartments. What if she had her car parked there and Caylee in the trunk and she was telling LE that's where Caylee was. Maybe she showed them everywhere she parked with Caylee in the trunk. That's where Zanny lived. That's where I dropped Caylee off with Zanny. If every supposed Zanny apartment is near a friends house this could be the case no? Leonard may be right that there is a grain of truth in some of her statements. She may be doing that subconsciously as well. One thing that really struck me in the interview was her total lack of emotion. I mean the only emotions she appears to show are irritation that they don't believe her and just forget the whole thing. Oddly in other cases, people do insert certain truths in there , I think in my opinion because it is so hard to keep the story straight.

[One2Snoop]

Okay something came to me while watching NG tonight. I thought I'd run it past all of you. Remember Casey showing LE all those supposed apartments Zanny lived at and saying that's where Caylee was? Well I know the old folks home was right across the street from one her boyfriends apartments. What if she had her car parked there and Caylee in the trunk and she was telling LE that's where Caylee was. Maybe she showed them everywhere she parked with Caylee in the trunk. That's where Zanny lived. That's where I dropped Caylee off with Zanny. If every supposed Zanny apartment is near a friends house this could be the case no?


Yes very possible - I always thought there was a small grain of truth throughout the lies - like when she told Lee to search familiar places to the family. I can't help but wonder if she meant the area they hung out in behind the grade school when she said that?

[applesandorange]

Leonard may be right that there is a grain of truth in some of her statements. She may be doing that subconsciously as well. One thing that really struck me in the interview was her total lack of emotion. I mean the only emotions she appears to show are irritation that they don't believe her and just forget the whole thing. Oddly in other cases, people do insert certain truths in there , I think in my opinion because it is so hard to keep the story straight.

I noticed that too. She shows frustration and also when they tell her that she is going to be the biggest help to them she gets very nice. Her whole demeanor changes. She says something to the effect of I just don't know what to do. I have nothing to go on. The tone she uses though is much different. Almost relieved and thinks she pulled one over on them.

[applesandorange]

Yes very possible - like when she told Lee to search familiar places to the family.

Speaking of Lee, does anyone know when he lawyered up?

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh. My.

About 2/3 through the vid.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151115&version=1&locale=EN-US

[One2Snoop]

Leonard may be right that there is a grain of truth in some of her statements. She may be doing that subconsciously as well. One thing that really struck me in the interview was her total lack of emotion. I mean the only emotions she appears to show are irritation that they don't believe her and just forget the whole thing. Oddly in other cases, people do insert certain truths in there , I think in my opinion because it is so hard to keep the story straight.

That is something that has stuck with me throughout this entire case - her lack of concern for Caylee and she shows no emotion - she's not on national TV begging for her daughter to be returned and she basically mimicks everything Cindy says to her to appease G&C in their jailhouse conversations. Everytime I listen to those tapes I think WTF? Sorry, I still to this day can't get past that thought.

JMO

[applesandorange]

Oh. My.

About 2/3 through the vid.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151115&version=1&locale=EN-US


Thanks Loretta. Did you catch what I caught? I don't want to say it in case it was just a slip of the tongue. But oh what a slip. Just wondering if you caught that too.

[One2Snoop]

Speaking of Lee, does anyone know when he lawyered up?


Seems from the info found - I think Loretta may remember - it was early on and we just didn't catch wind of it until recently.

Loretta???? :seeya:

[applesandorange]

Seems from the info found - I think Loretta may remember - it was early on and we just didn't catch wind of it until recently.

Loretta???? :seeya:


Watch that video and see what you think of his little slip. Could be nothing but then again with the speculation floating around could be something.

[One2Snoop]

Thanks Loretta. Did you catch what I caught? I don't want to say it in case it was just a slip of the tongue. But oh what a slip. Just wondering if you caught that too.

Hands on hip, Tapping foot - do tell - some of us don't have video access at the moment LOL.

[lorettalockhorn]

Hands on hip, Tapping foot - do tell - some of us don't have video access at the moment LOL.

Well, Mr. Luka a recent graduate of the Todd Black School of Public Speaking, referred to Caylee as Lee's daughter.

Where's the GD crying smiley when we need it?

[applesandorange]

Hands on hip, Tapping foot - do tell - some of us don't have video access at the moment LOL.


LoL! Okay he's talking about Lee looking for Caylee and he says "his daughter" and then catches himself and says " I mean his neice."

[lorettalockhorn]

Background on Mr. Luka. (Sorry no mention of his PhD in public speaking):

http://humbleopinion.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/who-is-thom-luka-lee-anthonys-attorney/

[One2Snoop]

Got that from a Monkey; she did a really good job of summarizing for us! :beer:



Does my sarcasm make my butt look big? :hat:

LOL! you know I love sarcasm but I won't look at your butt! :eek::beer:

[applesandorange]

Well, Mr. Luka a recent graduate of the Todd Black School of Public Speaking, referred to Caylee as Lee's daughter.

Where's the GD crying smiley when we need it?


LMAO Loretta!! Recent graduate of the Todd Black School of Public Speaking...... HAHAHAHA:hat:

[mu8shark]

The state's theory MUST BE coherent & logical to make it to trial. Comparing to a defendant's version of events is not conducive to a successful result for the prosecution. So far, the state seems scatter shot in thier approach to the events. Well to be honest, in the real world what it will boil down to is if the jurors believe the state or the defense and the defense, if they present the nanny defense or a some other dude did it and we are not sure who that other dude is , the states theory while some of it is speculation as realistically every case is, is going to make a lot more sense. And keep in mind, the state is not playing all their cards out in public as of yet. I for one see no earthly reason why it would not come in even as, speculation that she looked up a scenario where a nanny kidnapped a child and then used a bit of that story . She had to get that BS somewhere. Although it is not bit by bit the exact plot line, it reeks of looking for an excuse ahead of time for a child to disappear and then looking on missing childrens sites before her child went missing. Forget it! Those comp searches are coming in.

[One2Snoop]

Well, Mr. Luka a recent graduate of the Todd Black School of Public Speaking, referred to Caylee as Lee's daughter.

Where's the GD crying smiley when we need it?

LoL! Okay he's talking about Lee looking for Caylee and he says "his daughter" and then catches himself and says " I mean his neice."

Forkin' a, no way??!!!! :eek: Ok, I'm typing on a small keypad on a phone and my eyes are about crossed and I'm certain my english sounds bad too!
Don't lose that video cause I want to watch it when I have a big fat screen with loud volume in front of my face. Oh my freakin' gawd. :eek:

Nite all. :seeya: Also, I just wanted to give a shout out to Loretta for keeping up on the updates - I appreciate your help 10 fold, so folks when your giving out good reps be sure to pass a few Loretta's way. :beer: :rose:

[applesandorange]

Well to be honest, in the real world what it will boil down to is if the jurors believe the state or the defense and the defense, if they present the nanny defense or a some other dude did it and we are not sure who that other dude is , the states theory while some of it is speculation as realistically every case is, is going to make a lot more sense. And keep in mind, the state is not playing all their cards out in public as of yet. I for one see no earthly reason why it would not come in even as, speculation that she looked up a scenario where a nanny kidnapped a child and then used a bit of that story . She had to get that BS somewhere. Although it is not bit by bit the exact plot line, it reeks of looking for an excuse ahead of time for a child to disappear and then looking on missing childrens sites before her child went missing. Forget it! Those comp searches are coming in.


I agree with you. Like I said the other day, she searched for neck breaking, chloroform, death by inhalation, missing childrens sites etc etc.... yes it's not CONCRETE PROOF but it is definitely coming in and any juror in their right mind will be able to connect those dots.

[applesandorange]

Forkin' a, no way??!!!! :eek: Ok, I'm typing on a small keypad on a phone and my eyes are about crossed and I'm certain my english sounds bad too!
Don't lose that video cause I want to watch it when I have a big fat screen with loud volume in front of my face. Oh my freakin' gawd. :eek:

Nite all. :seeya: Also, I just wanted to give a shout out to Loretta for keeping up on the updates - I appreciate your help 10 fold, so folks when your giving out good reps be sure to pass a few Loretta's way. :beer: :rose:


Good night!! Reps coming to Loretta.

[lorettalockhorn]

LOL! you know I love sarcasm but I won't look at your butt! :eek::beer:

nanny nanny boo boo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I don't get an attitude adjustment my sarcasm's gonna make my butt humongous! You won't be able to avoid it.

Cannot for the life of me find the date when we learned about Mr. Luka.

But I guess all this time that Lee's been in the background and we thought he was out of town on business, he was really conducting his investigation on the fund's nickel. :rolleyes: Don't know about FL, but in AR you have to be licensed before your testimony as an investigator is allowable in court.

[mu8shark]

Well, Mr. Luka a recent graduate of the Todd Black School of Public Speaking, referred to Caylee as Lee's daughter.

Where's the GD crying smiley when we need it?OMG I am squealing aloud! Gasp what a slip of the tongue, That is just funnneeee! Speaking of things and that interview with Casey, one thing I can't get over is that this story with work and the phone on her desk and Jeffery Hopkins, blah , blah, blah, on and on, did she not think they would check any of this out??? I just can't get over that. Does she think the police routinely just size people up like , huh she looks clean, nice haircut, seems like a reasonable girl, okay we believe her!! No further questions. It is just mindblowing. Nobody and nothing in her story exists.

[lorettalockhorn]

I agree with you. Like I said the other day, she searched for neck breaking, chloroform, death by inhalation, missing childrens sites etc etc.... yes it's not CONCRETE PROOF but it is definitely coming in and any juror in their right mind will be able to connect those dots.

The only reason that I can think of for the judge not allowing the computer searches, is if it cannot be narrowed down that Casey made them. The alternative to Casey in some cases is George. So what's the defense gonna do with that info? Insinuate that George out of the clear blue sky searched at random the circumstances of Caylee's possible cause of death? Helloooooo Won't that make him look like her accomplice or vice versa?

OMG I am squealing aloud! Gasp what a slip of the tongue, That is just funnneeee! Speaking of things and that interview with Casey, one thing I can't get over is that this story with work and the phone on her desk and Jeffery Hopkins, blah , blah, blah, on and on, did she not think they would check any of this out??? I just can't get over that. Does she think the police routinely just size people up like , huh she looks clean, nice haircut, seems like a reasonable girl, okay we believe her!! No further questions. It is just mindblowing. Nobody and nothing in her story exists.

Nothing should surprise us at this point, and it's all far from laughable, but it's just impossible not to give in to so many faux pas. What a flustercluck. Poor Caylee.

[mu8shark]

nanny nanny boo boo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If I don't get an attitude adjustment my sarcasm's gonna make my butt humongous! You won't be able to avoid it.

Cannot for the life of me find the date when we learned about Mr. Luka.

But I guess all this time that Lee's been in the background and we thought he was out of town on business, he was really conducting his investigation on the fund's nickel. :rolleyes: Don't know about FL, but in AR you have to be licensed before your testimony as an investigator is allowable in court. Yikes so according to Fox and another news agency Lee could face charges for obstruction and aiding and abetting. Yikes, you don't suppose those fingerprints are back!! I am just saying....
I have to go to bed btw.

[Anton Chigurh]

The movie "Untraceable" -- This movie contains many, many parallels to Caylee's story. Here are just a few:


Decaying body in trunk of car abandoned deliberately for someone to find.
Young single woman working long hours while her mother cares for her daughter.
Grandmother disapproves of apparent neglect of g-daughter by daughter.
Child's father is deceased and the film never shows him in picture or flashback.
The twisted killer's motive is resentment, bitterness, revenge.
The case garners national and international media attention.
The young mother and her family are in danger, but she can't tell them why.
She flees alone to a hotel for safety on the night after the killer targets her home.
The killer makes phone calls that can't be traced, using a "spoof" card.
One of the victims is tripped up through his activity on an online dating site.
As others have pointed out, the killer binds two of the victims around the mouth with duct tape.


I am curious if Casey watched that movie or other similar movies relating to this case with her friends? Have they come forward yet? They may have remembered Casey's enthusiasm behaviors about these movies then come forward as witnesses. But how many friends did Casey have, really? I don’t think they all were long terms, even several weeks long, since Casey was just using them, like forging one of their checks. Only her parents still stand beside her at least that I know of. It would surprise me if at least one of her friends (or past friends) came to empathize for Caylee and to take interest learning more about the case, maybe to help or to show support to Caylee and the relatives. But with Casey’s immature & callous behaviors, usually she would prefer to hang around with a crowd that is fitting to hers. I understand the police discovered records of Casey renting those movies, but did Casey really watch them alone? What about one of her guys that she may have brought home or staying over to sleep around with and to watch movies together? It just that I picture Casey being too antsy about being alone, she has such enormous desires to go out to socialize or have someone of her tastes with her, which those kind of behaviors seemly to reveal that Caylee was a burden to her so Casey got her own daughter out of her way, IMO. How sad.

What would happen if Casey decides to come up insanity plea base on using drugs to lessen the penalty? Did she tend to use drugs for her social life, is that correct? And what kind of drugs were they?

[lorettalockhorn]

I am curious if Casey watched that movie or other similar movies relating to this case with her friends? Have they come forward yet? They may have remembered Casey's enthusiasm behaviors about these movies then come forward as witnesses. But how many friends did Casey have, really? I don’t think they all were long terms, even several weeks long, since Casey was just using them, like forging one of their checks. Only her parents still stand beside her at least that I know of. It would surprise me if at least one of her friends (or past friends) came to empathize for Caylee and to take interest learning more about the case, maybe to help or to show support to Caylee and the relatives. But with Casey’s immature & callous behaviors, usually she would prefer to hang around with a crowd that is fitting to hers. I understand the police discovered records of Casey renting those movies, but did Casey really watch them alone? What about one of her guys that she may have brought home or staying over to sleep around with and to watch movies together? It just that I picture Casey being too antsy about being alone, she has such enormous desires to go out to socialize or have someone of her tastes with her, which those kind of behaviors seemly to reveal that Caylee was a burden to her so Casey got her own daughter out of her way, IMO. How sad.

What would happen if Casey decides to come up insanity plea base on using drugs to lessen the penalty? Did she tend to use drugs for her social life, is that correct? And what kind of drugs were they?

We don't know that she actually watched Untraceable, but she and Tony L. were videotaped renting it from a Blockbuster on 6/16/08 (along with Jumper).

Not sure what kind(s) of drugs she ever used; if she has been tested, the results must be sealed. Don't remember reading any order for testing, but it could be part of the psych eval that was ordered, performed and sealed by the court.

[Amy]

I am curious if Casey watched that movie or other similar movies relating to this case with her friends? Have they come forward yet? They may have remembered Casey's enthusiasm behaviors about these movies then come forward as witnesses. But how many friends did Casey have, really? I don’t think they all were long terms, even several weeks long, since Casey was just using them, like forging one of their checks. Only her parents still stand beside her at least that I know of. It would surprise me if at least one of her friends (or past friends) came to empathize for Caylee and to take interest learning more about the case, maybe to help or to show support to Caylee and the relatives. But with Casey’s immature & callous behaviors, usually she would prefer to hang around with a crowd that is fitting to hers. I understand the police discovered records of Casey renting those movies, but did Casey really watch them alone? What about one of her guys that she may have brought home or staying over to sleep around with and to watch movies together? It just that I picture Casey being too antsy about being alone, she has such enormous desires to go out to socialize or have someone of her tastes with her, which those kind of behaviors seemly to reveal that Caylee was a burden to her so Casey got her own daughter out of her way, IMO. How sad.

What would happen if Casey decides to come up insanity plea base on using drugs to lessen the penalty? Did she tend to use drugs for her social life, is that correct? And what kind of drugs were they?

IIRC, the day of the murder when she went to Blockbuster, she was in the company of TonE.

I can't think of any cases where the murderer gets off for being high on drugs. I know it is used as an EXCUSE, but it doesn't work to get out of a conviction. It would be kind of hard to say she didn't know right from wrong because she was high on drugs, because she DID know what she did was wrong--she went to great lengths to cover it up.

[Gatordog]

**************************************
I also noted she is not a sympathic defendant. Jury pardons are rare. I have personal knowledge of only one case & it was I guess a "partial jury pardon". Guilty on one count, not guilty on the other. With this child victim, there is no reason to even consider it. This is not a case wherein a family member is watching a loved one in horrible pain, and administers pain killer to end the suffering.

You don't get what I'm trying to say - I'm looking at it in the opposite way. She is such a horrible person that the jury would discredit any exculpatory evidence and focus more on finding her guilty of the highest charges regardless if you think there isn't enough evidence to prove anything other than Caylee has died and she was a bad mother.

Gator

[deacon]

RE: Posts 57, 58, and 59; I'm all for involuntary sterilization in certain cases.

Well, in the words of Forest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does, Sir."

When you mess with chemicals like that and drugs a lot of time you do take yourself out of the gene pool. Or someone else.

[deacon]

In my opinion, if a Zenaida Gonzales had taken Caylee, I think the lovely little girl Caylee would still be alive. No ransom note or pleas, etc. Most Mexican folks I know are God fearing Catholics and the Anthonys are not rich and could not come up with a ransom unless assisted by LE, but then again caysee did not notify LE for 31 days until she was forced by her mother. jmo


This is the part that proves her guilt to me. She knew her child was missing and did not notify LE at all. You don't look for your child by "shaking your booty" in a night club. You look for your child by screaming to the top of your lungs to LE and getting off of your booty and helping in any way possible. You don't weave lie after lie after lie, you tell the truth. You don't take LE to the imaginary office you have in the corner of your warped mind that thinks only about yourself. IF her child were missing, and Caylee was not "missing", she would have called LE first.

[Gatordog]

Yes very possible - I always thought there was a small grain of truth throughout the lies - like when she told Lee to search familiar places to the family. I can't help but wonder if she meant the area they hung out in behind the grade school when she said that?

Hi Snoop, those words are going to back and bite her. Why would the Nanny take Caylee to past Anthony family locations? If I had ever kidnapped someone's child, I wouldn't go to places where i could be found by the family. But then these numnuts thought that Caylee was going to every mall in Florida. Also, to me it implies that the Liar knew that Caylee had been killed and left someplace. The Liar never told Lee to look where the nanny used to go. Never said she went to the La Bodega or old San Juan restaurant.

[deacon]

OMG I am squealing aloud! Gasp what a slip of the tongue, That is just funnneeee! Speaking of things and that interview with Casey, one thing I can't get over is that this story with work and the phone on her desk and Jeffery Hopkins, blah , blah, blah, on and on, did she not think they would check any of this out??? I just can't get over that. Does she think the police routinely just size people up like , huh she looks clean, nice haircut, seems like a reasonable girl, okay we believe her!! No further questions. It is just mindblowing. Nobody and nothing in her story exists.

Now that you say that it hit me. She seems to think that she is the smartest person around. She probably thinks that she is sooo much smarter than LE that she can spin her lies and they will believe them.

It worked on her dad for years, why not the cops? I really think she believes she is smarter than LE and has all of her bases covered. To take a look at her smarts, it would have made a much more believable story if she would have said that a stranger took Caylee and gave her the script, which, BTW I have never seen or heard existed other than from her mother and her.

[Peachallie]

You don't get what I'm trying to say - I'm looking at it in the opposite way. She is such a horrible person that the jury would discredit any exculpatory evidence and focus more on finding her guilty of the highest charges regardless if you think there isn't enough evidence to prove anything other than Caylee has died and she was a bad mother.

Gator
*******************************************
A jury might, but the conviction will be overturned on appeal if there isn't a bare minimum of evidence for the jury to find her guilty. Someone typing in the words "neck breaking" into a computer she had access to three months before the victim disappeared ain't gonna do it. There is no evidence Caylee Anthony suffered a broken neck. The search of the grandparent's house may have turned up some physical evidence that is incriminating; the defense hasn't been crowing lately.

[Gatordog]

[/B]


It appeared to me that Casey was drugged when she was being interviewed. What ever the drug was, (if any) it had to be akin to Thorazine. She sounded very zoned out. I've seen people break down and cry during police interrogations for a lot less than murder. Old and young, guilty or not, I have never seen anyone under investigation sound that cold and indifferent. If those tapes are played in the courtroom, they will be her guillotine regardless of the facts, fingerprints or anything else.

Sorry Peach.

That's cause she's a sociopath and only has emotions for herself. She only cries when she talks about herself: she looks like hell - makes her cry. She wants to be home - makes her cry. She's eating coleslaw - makes her laugh.

[deacon]

[/B]


It appeared to me that Casey was drugged when she was being interviewed. What ever the drug was, (if any) it had to be akin to Thorazine. She sounded very zoned out. I've seen people break down and cry during police interrogations for a lot less than murder. Old and young, guilty or not, I have never seen anyone under investigation sound that cold and indifferent. If those tapes are played in the courtroom, they will be her guillotine regardless of the facts, fingerprints or anything else.

Sorry Peach.

I watched the interview of a "hitman" whose nick name was "the ice man." He was even colder than she is. No emotion at all while he talked about the people he killed. There are those people out there that do not care about anyone and who think they are going to get away with what ever they do.

No emotion.

[tv]

That's cause she's a sociopath and only has emotions for herself. She only cries when she talks about herself: she looks like hell - makes her cry. She wants to be home - makes her cry. She's eating coleslaw - makes her laugh....Jose Baez saying Casey is somebody's child makes her cry. She didn't cry when he said Caylee was somebody's child...her emotions just aren't like the rest of us.

[Peachallie]

Originally Posted by Danagher
[/b]

It appeared to me that Casey was drugged when she was being interviewed. What ever the drug was, (if any) it had to be akin to Thorazine. She sounded very zoned out. I've seen people break down and cry during police interrogations for a lot less than murder. Old and young, guilty or not, I have never seen anyone under investigation sound that cold and indifferent. If those tapes are played in the courtroom, they will be her guillotine regardless of the facts, fingerprints or anything else.
**************************************
Then it'll be up to the 5th DCA to say whether or there is enough evidence on the record for the jury to so have concluded. Computer searches on a machine in her parents' home done months before Caylee Anthony's death that MAY tie in to something there is no proof occurred (neck breaking) probably doesn't cut it. Evidence of unnatural occurrence of chloroform in the toxicology testing probably would. The defense has everything the state has at this point & the right to do their own tests. If the defense remains quiet, that is good news for the prosecution.

[deacon]

I believe that there are those types, definitely. But this little snot seems to have a history of brat attacks, so there has to be some kind of emotion in her.
I'm so lost as to her responses to the police investigation. I agree she thinks she will get away with it but I can't help thinking she had a plan.

At the time of the questioning we saw on NG last night, was she not yet in jail? Would I be wrong to assume that she may have planned to disappear? Since the poster who theorized that, I can't get it out of my mind as her reason for staying so calm.

Mornin Deacon.

But see, her brat attacks always envolve just one thing, her. The Ice Man was the same way. He would have a great emotional response when someone did something against him or talked bad about him. The interview I watched had to be stopped because the interviewer said something he didn't like and, while is jail, he threatened to kill the interviewer. Shoot he killed a guy that cut him off in traffic. As long as it involves her, she has those emotions. If it involves someone else, well then no emotion.

Plan? In her mind she had a plan. It wasn't to leave IMO. It simply was to have LE on the wild goose chase of trying to find zanny the nanny who didn't exist. She really, IMO, thought and still thinks that they will eventually buy the zanny story.

She thinks she is smart, which doesn't mean she is. Just that she thinks she it.

Mornin'

[deacon]

Originally Posted by Danagher
[/b]

It appeared to me that Casey was drugged when she was being interviewed. What ever the drug was, (if any) it had to be akin to Thorazine. She sounded very zoned out. I've seen people break down and cry during police interrogations for a lot less than murder. Old and young, guilty or not, I have never seen anyone under investigation sound that cold and indifferent. If those tapes are played in the courtroom, they will be her guillotine regardless of the facts, fingerprints or anything else.
**************************************
Then it'll be up to the 5th DCA to say whether or there is enough evidence on the record for the jury to so have concluded. Computer searches on a machine in her parents' home done months before Caylee Anthony's death that MAY tie in to something there is no proof occurred (neck breaking) probably doesn't cut it. Evidence of unnatural occurrence of chloroform in the toxicology testing probably would. The defense has everything the state has at this point & the right to do their own tests. If the defense remains quiet, that is good news for the prosecution.

What we have to remember is that not one piece of evidence has to tell the whole story. It is all of the evidence together. It paints a picture of what happened and who did what and when. The searches show, IMO, intent. She intended to kill Caylee. She didn't do it by mistake. If she used chloroform, and I think she did, it was with the intent of ending Caylee's life, not keeping her quiet to go party. If that was what she wanted she could have "fessed up" and let her parents keep Caylee. She could have let her parents have Caylee and she wouldn't have been weighed down with her anymore. IMO, this whole thing boils down to a selfish brat that wanted it her way. She killed her daughter to spite her mother and to not bring herself into a bad light. If she would have simply given her child up she would have, in her eyes I suppose, looked like a bad mother. She couldn't stand it if she were seen as a bad mother. It simply didn't go with the image she wanted for herself. So, Caylee had to die and she had to pin the murder on someone else. Enter the nanny that doesn't exist.

This was cold hearted, calculated, first degree murder. On top of that, she ain't as smart as she thinks she is.

[deacon]

Yes Gator, that's all true and yet as I look at the big picture there is still something missing. I hope the prosecution team gets into her childhood because I want to see the makings of this killer come into the canvas or I might never trust another human being in my life again. There had to be clues to the possibility of this crime way before it happened. I am sure the Anthony's knew she was capable of this. Then I'll want to know why they were dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of her head problems. (If sociopath disorder has a cause besides physiological or hard wiring at birth.)

IMO, there were clues. Her family just ignored them. Apple/tree. IMO she is much like her mother. Her mother just didn't kill anyone. The other symptoms are there.

[deputydi]

One of the things that struck me in those tapes was that she has no good reason to wait so long to report it. She talks about how she trusted Zanny, had known her a year, how she loved Caylee and how she never said anything weird like, I wish she was my child and even praised the way she was raised, which made me think of this question, If you were to go to a babysitters and your child is not there and there is no phone call or even a connected phone all of a sudden, why would your first thought be 'Oh if I call the police, Zanny may hurt or kill her?" I would think you would think or I would, what if Zanny had a wreck and is at the bottom of a ravine or the car was in a waterway? Or what if somebody abducted Zanny or killed or carjacked Zanny or Zanny is injured or sick or had a seizure? I better call the police. Why would you immediately say to yourself, this woman I have known for four years, who was always loving and kind and concerned and never criticized me as a mother all of a sudden kill my child if I went to the police? I mean that makes zero sense. Obviously I stopped believing in the Zanny long ago ,but until I heard all those tapes, I never realized what a favorable light she portrayed Zanny in. Maybe thirty days later you would have a different , more negative opinion of the nanny but not on day one., not after a four year problem free relationship supposedly with this woman
That was only her first story. Next she said that they were at the park and Zanny and her friends (relatives?) attacked her, grabbed Caylee, gave her a "script" to follow for the next 30 days and took off in a car.

Good Zanny -- Bad Zanny. Which story do you believe? This young lady can not avoid a conviction regardless of what defense she chooses to use.

[Amy]

Yes Gator, that's all true and yet as I look at the big picture there is still something missing. I hope the prosecution team gets into her childhood because I want to see the makings of this killer come into the canvas or I might never trust another human being in my life again. There had to be clues to the possibility of this crime way before it happened. I am sure the Anthony's knew she was capable of this. Then I'll want to know why they were dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of her head problems. (If sociopath disorder has a cause besides physiological or hard wiring at birth.)

To the A's, she was spoiled, probably easier to give in to her than to deal w/it. She was a liar and a thief, from the words of her own parents. People took her @ face value. She evidently didn't go around starting fires, killing pets (I assume her hamsters died a natual death.) I don't think her parents had a clue she could do something like this. I don't think Cindy Anthony would have left Caylee home w/Casey for one minute if she tho't Casey would harm that little girl in any way. Casey knew how to act like a mom when others were around, she just had to act in whatever way Cindy had acted when she (Casey) was growing up. Cindy wouldn't see anything wrong w/THAT.

They watch others to see how they are to act, so they can fit into society. No one saw it coming w/Scott Peterson or Mark Hacking. Their wives NEVER said anything to anyone that would indicate that, on a day-to-day basis, their husbands were anything but loving and attentive. Their parents and friends didn't have a clue.

[deacon]

Okay, I see what you are saying. Her emotions are self centered. And this is a loud symptom of Sociopath/narcissistic profile. My problem is, why didn't her parents know better than to trust her with Caylee? Are they nuts? What defines normal to these people? Snuffing out the life of that beautiful child doesn't seem to be the issue with them at all. They are more concerned with walking on eggshells so Casey won't get upset! I hate it!

Okay, please tell me what her reasoning was forleading the police on the wild goose chase. What purpose did this serve?

I'm full of questions this morning. I can't make sense of what I heard on NG last night.

Her father has a condition that is called "henpecked" He is missing a couple of male body parts and will not stand up for himself or what is right. Why? He is married to another casey. She just hasn't killed anyone. Not all egomaniacs kill people.
They had no grounds to take her away in their eyes. Maybe not in the eyes of the court. It takes a lot of evidence for a court to label a woman an unfit mother.

The wild goose chase was a part of her plan. Anything to keep them from looking in that vacant lot. Smoke and mirrors. If you have them looking in all of the wrong places they will not find the body. A bunch of people still believe they needed the body to prosecute. casey must have been one of them

[deacon]

Yes, agree. Excellent post!

From day one, I clearly believed that she wanted to "spite her mother" It seemed to me as if she saw Caylee as nothing more than a favorite lamp of Cindy's or a precious painting that Cindy loved and she wanted to destroy it. I also agree, given the symptoms of sociopath/narcissism that she needed to appear irreproachable and great in her own eyes, so she could not have given custody to her mother. Cindy would have liked that and she wasn't into making Cindy happy then. At the end of the day, she had to hurt Cindy and did. She also wanted to make the murder Cindy's fault and I think she accomplished that too. (At least in Cindy's eyes)

But, (and I have many "But's") as incomprehensible as it may have seemed to the Anthony's, why didn't they protect Caylee from Casey who they had to know would be capable of this crime? Believing that Cindy had similar disorder she was the target, and she had to know that. Not that I expect Cindy to become a Harvard Grad overnight, but mother's instinct?

It is very difficult to have a mother judged as unfit in court. On the outside, we see things about casey that were not evident then or could not have been proven in court. Remember, cindy, IMO, has the same problems. cindy would have seen this as an attack on her "mothering" ability.

[lorettalockhorn]

I'm not being a very good detective today. (Or any other day) I have a big house to clean and I'd better get to it because it's already 11am. Thanks for all your responses to my never ending questions this fine morning.

If I get on your nerves, just do this... :punch:


I can handle it :)

psst I'm cheating and getting online before my chores are finished. Don't tell anyone.

Good morning CL! :seeya:

[lorettalockhorn]

Lee Anthony's attorney, Thomas Luka, on possible charges which could be brought against his client.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151104&version=1&locale=EN-US

Luka states that the Anthonys aren't witnesses? HUH? Does he mean not witnesses to the crime? Because I'm pretty sure that they are on The State's witness list.

[lorettalockhorn]

Casey Anthony case: WESH asks, Is there a copycat?

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2008/12/casey-anthony-5.html

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/state/orl-nobaby2708dec27,0,1433889.story

[deacon]

I'm not being a very good detective today. (Or any other day) I have a big house to clean and I'd better get to it because it's already 11am. Thanks for all your responses to my never ending questions this fine morning.

If I get on your nerves, just do this... :punch:


I can handle it :)

I am waiting to go to work. Working the night shift this weekend and next week. 7pm to 7am. So, I don't have much to do today. Questions never get on my nerves. So no:punch: for you. However there is a person in Florida who deserves a :punch: and somewhat more.

[deputydi]

**************************************
Then it'll be up to the 5th DCA to say whether or there is enough evidence on the record for the jury to so have concluded. Computer searches on a machine in her parents' home done months before Caylee Anthony's death that MAY tie in to something there is no proof occurred (neck breaking) probably doesn't cut it. Evidence of unnatural occurrence of chloroform in the toxicology testing probably would. The defense has everything the state has at this point & the right to do their own tests. If the defense remains quiet, that is good news for the prosecution.

You keep focusing on that one computer search about neck breaking. That particular search is not even minutely important. There were others and LE has compelling evidence that there WAS a body in Casey's car, the hair with the death banding can only be Caylee's, Casey deliberately led the police on a wild goose chase that cannot be logically explained away, and she told lie after lie that did nothing more than obstruct the investigation. Add to that the different stories she told about HOW and WHEN the kidnapping occurred and you have a perfect recipe for a conviction. This is all BEFORE we have heard the results of the forensic testing.

[deputydi]

Okay, I see what you are saying. Her emotions are self centered. And this is a loud symptom of Sociopath/narcissistic profile. My problem is, why didn't her parents know better than to trust her with Caylee? Are they nuts? What defines normal to these people? Snuffing out the life of that beautiful child doesn't seem to be the issue with them at all. They are more concerned with walking on eggshells so Casey won't get upset! I hate it!

Okay, please tell me what her reasoning was forleading the police on the wild goose chase. What purpose did this serve?

I'm full of questions this morning. I can't make sense of what I heard on NG last night.

From what I've read about sociopathic and narcissistic behavior, it doesn't really manifest itself until the late teens or early 20s. I would imagine the behavior change didn't just happen overnight, but was probably thought of as a headstrong or spoiled attitude.

Until I can get this to make sense in my head, I'm still stuck on a tragic accident happening and Casey, being afraid she would be thought of as an unfit mother who let her child die, decided it was way better for her image if she just pretended it never happened.

[Peachallie]

You keep focusing on that one computer search about neck breaking. That particular search is not even minutely important. There were others and LE has compelling evidence that there WAS a body in Casey's car, the hair with the death banding can only be Caylee's, Casey deliberately led the police on a wild goose chase that cannot be logically explained away, and she told lie after lie that did nothing more than obstruct the investigation. Add to that the different stories she told about HOW and WHEN the kidnapping occurred and you have a perfect recipe for a conviction. This is all BEFORE we have heard the results of the forensic testing.
*****************************************
That is why I think the toxicology report could be important. Though the death bands can appear on hair from live persons at times, Caylee Anthony's body was almost certainly in Casey Anthony's car. And I am still trying to think of anything that backs up the actual charge, 1st degree. Yes, Casey Anthony's after death behavior is indicative of a criminal act having occurred, but which one?

[Peachallie]

From what I've read about sociopathic and narcissistic behavior, it doesn't really manifest itself until the late teens or early 20s. I would imagine the behavior change didn't just happen overnight, but was probably thought of as a headstrong or spoiled attitude.

Until I can get this to make sense in my head, I'm still stuck on a tragic accident happening and Casey, being afraid she would be thought of as an unfit mother who let her child die, decided it was way better for her image if she just pretended it never happened.
*********************************************
The armchair psychologists abound*; I agree with your assessment. Accidental death, PROBABLY caused by culpable negligence, with post mortem crimes.



*The diagnosis of sociopath takes professionals much study to reach. Another term learned from TV & tossed about by those that have little idea what it means.

[deputydi]

*****************************************
That is why I think the toxicology report could be important. Though the death bands can appear on hair from live persons at times, Caylee Anthony's body was almost certainly in Casey Anthony's car. And I am still trying to think of anything that backs up the actual charge, 1st degree. Yes, Casey Anthony's after death behavior is indicative of a criminal act having occurred, but which one?
Thank you so much for using the quote feature. It makes it easier to discern your comments from those you are quoting.

I have much admiration for the Orlando PD for the way they have handled this investigation. They have remained low key and I have no doubt there is much more evidence than has been released. When Casey was arrested and charged, they must have felt what they had was enough to charge 1st degree even without a body. Many felt (myself included) that the body would never be found and they were taking a huge risk with a capital charge. That tells me there is more evidence that we just don't know about yet.

[Justice Denied?]

This is an interesting article on inappropriate affect in narcissism:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq41.html

& the link to Warped Reality and Retroactive Emotional Content:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq39.html

Loretta,

this is really good reading. You can see Caset in almost every line, and can especially see what Jessee Grund was talking about when he talked of the two Caseys.

thanks for keeping us up to date and all the fantastic research you do.

[Justice Denied?]

Duct tape around the mouth to keep insects out? LOL . I have never heard of someone killing someone and being concerned about bugs getting in the mouth of a dead person. I mean , never and I have been following true crime for a long time . If some dumb ass defense lawyer gets up in front of me and says "Well you know lots of killers are pretty concerned about getting bugs in the mouth of the victim, I gonna laugh. long and hard! Not trying to be sarcastic but a defense attorney has to do better than that, because that is comical. And on that comp, really , the defense attorney has three choices, Cindy, Lee or George or some stranger who crawled through the window or broke in and spent oodles of time on the Anthony comp logged in under Caseys name. Cindy and George both worked , not like their lard ass daughter who sat on the couch and so did Lee, so if all of those searches are done when they are gone and Casey is logged in and emailing her buddies at the same time like most of us do, that is not going to fly. I literally do not know one person who thinks some stranger has snuck in and spent time on their comp. I can hear it now on the next jail tape though. Cindy" Casey did the meter reader have a key to the house?" LOL

The meter reader did not have a key to the house but Zanny did, according to Casey. Not sure why as she had all kinds of stuff for Caylee and had never met any of the family.

[lorettalockhorn]

Loretta,

this is really good reading. You can see Caset in almost every line, and can especially see what Jessee Grund was talking about when he talked of the two Caseys.

thanks for keeping us up to date and all the fantastic research you do.

The movie analogy is great. This is the best explanation for how I perceive Casey that I've read so far. And if there was never a single traumatic event in Casey's life that can explain "the two Caseys", this explains the evolution that created "this Casey".

[Justice Denied?]

It has never been used in a Florida case , not because it can't be, it just has not been used. It is so rare, it has not been used in many states. If the state would accept it, it could however, under Supreme court decision absolutely be used in a murder case, problem is the state may not accept any plea as their case is getting stronger and stronger as they go along and if they have fingerprints, forget any plea.

That is why I think all this debate of prosecution vs defense is very premature. Also discussion of a plea. We have no idea what evidence was found in that field with the body or what was taken from the Anthony home. This case may now be airtight or it may be practically lost. We don't know. Based on what we DO know, it looks very good for the pros but that could change.

[lorettalockhorn]

The meter reader did not have a key to the house but Zanny did, according to Casey. Not sure why as she had all kinds of stuff for Caylee and had never met any of the family.

Well George (or any of the Anthonys) is going to look like a mighty poor security guard if he didn't notice Zanny in the house, on the computer while Casey was "at work". Not to mention, Zanny would have had Caylee with her. He didn't notice Caylee either??

[Justice Denied?]

I've never seen that show, and since I mainly wear PJs, nighties, and peignoirs, I don't want to see it. :eek: They might recommend that I do something crazy. Like get dressed. LMAO

Tell it like it is. I live in sleep pants and tee shirts. Not exactly making a fashion statement. Course my cat, Kali, is the only one here and she doesn't care.:beer:

[lorettalockhorn]

Tell it like it is. I live in sleep pants and tee shirts. Not exactly making a fashion statement. Course my cat, Kali, is the only one here and she doesn't care.:beer:

hehehe I hear ya! Victoria's Secret is jealous of my wardrobe, and they have the best sales! You know how people shop for shoes to go with a particular dress? I shop for shoes to go with my loungewear.

[Justice Denied?]

Oh. My.

About 2/3 through the vid.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151115&version=1&locale=EN-US

Are you thalking about the fact that Luka says, "at the beginning we did not know who was responsible."? I agree that is very interesting.

[lorettalockhorn]

Are you thalking about the fact that Luka says, "at the beginning we did not know who was responsible."? I agree that is very interesting.

His big oops was referring to Lee as Caylee's father, rather than her uncle. His smaller oops was opening his mouth at all. Why did he say that the Anthonys aren't witnesses? And why did he announce that funds will be paid back? Shouldn't he be announcing that funds have been paid back? How long is this little SNAFU going to take to remedy?

Is there anyone anywhere connected to the Anthonys who doesn't come off as an idiot?

[Peachallie]

Thank you so much for using the quote feature. It makes it easier to discern your comments from those you are quoting.

I have much admiration for the Orlando PD for the way they have handled this investigation. They have remained low key and I have no doubt there is much more evidence than has been released. When Casey was arrested and charged, they must have felt what they had was enough to charge 1st degree even without a body. Many felt (myself included) that the body would never be found and they were taking a huge risk with a capital charge. That tells me there is more evidence that we just don't know about yet.

**********************************************
The Judge ordered a couple days ago that all autopsy material must be turned over to the defense. As the case is in the discovery stage, anything the state has to use MUST be turned over to the defense if it is to used at trial. The actual witness lists are available on line; the autopsy results may not have been what the state expected. The state isn't omnipotent, better to over charge & drop down than under charge at the beginning and say "Guess WHAT!, this is worse than we thought", it doesn't help the state at trial. I noticed that agg. manslaughter is included in the charges, the state is covering their bases.

[applesandorange]

**********************************************
The Judge ordered a couple days ago that all autopsy material must be turned over to the defense. As the case is in the discovery stage, anything the state has to use MUST be turned over to the defense if it is to used at trial. The actual witness lists are available on line; the autopsy results may not have been what the state expected. The state isn't omnipotent, better to over charge & drop down than under charge at the beginning and say "Guess WHAT!, this is worse than we thought", it doesn't help the state at trial. I noticed that agg. manslaughter is included in the charges, the state is covering their bases.


Do you know what the autopsy results were? I doubt they'd leak that but just figured I'd ask anyway.

[lorettalockhorn]

Listening to the police interview tapes last night on NG made me think back to the original 911 call where Cindy reported Caylee missing. She said that Casey had been missing for a month and that the last time she had seen Caylee was on June 7 (Saturday). But Casey said that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. Not a month, not four weeks, not thirty days, but exactly 31 days (which would be 6/16/08). How/when did that get turned around to June 9th (which was also wrong)? I can see Cindy getting the exact date of Father's Day confused, (the 8th or the 15th), but FD is always on a Sunday. Detectives kept mentioning the 9th which would have made it 38 days since Casey had seen Caylee. Why did she allow LE to go on and on questioning her about the 9th? Cindy and Casey had to have sat down at some point and decided on this time frame together without ever bothering to look at a calendar. IMO

Just a random thought: is it possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy? Jumped in between them? Or that she was choked like Casey supposedly was? I've read that Cindy was battered looking in some pix, but haven't seen them. Did Casey give Cindy a beatdown during that altercation?

[Lodi]

Listening to the police interview tapes last night on NG made me think back to the original 911 call where Cindy reported Caylee missing. She said that Casey had been missing for a month and that the last time she had seen Caylee was on June 7 (Saturday). But Casey said that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. Not a month, not four weeks, not thirty days, but exactly 31 days (which would be 6/16/08). How/when did that get turned around to June 9th (which was also wrong)? I can see Cindy getting the exact date of Father's Day confused, (the 8th or the 15th), but FD is always on a Sunday. Detectives kept mentioning the 9th which would have made it 38 days since Casey had seen Caylee. Why did she allow LE to go on and on questioning her about the 9th? Cindy and Casey had to have sat down at some point and decided on this time frame together without ever bothering to look at a calendar. IMO

Just a random thought: is it possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy? Jumped in between them? Or that she was choked like Casey supposedly was? I've read that Cindy was battered looking in some pix, but haven't seen them. Did Casey give Cindy a beatdown during that altercation?

It is possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy. It's also possible that George and Lee saw it happen. How would that change the prosecution of Casey?

[Justice Denied?]

Listening to the police interview tapes last night on NG made me think back to the original 911 call where Cindy reported Caylee missing. She said that Casey had been missing for a month and that the last time she had seen Caylee was on June 7 (Saturday). But Casey said that Caylee had been missing for 31 days. Not a month, not four weeks, not thirty days, but exactly 31 days (which would be 6/16/08). How/when did that get turned around to June 9th (which was also wrong)? I can see Cindy getting the exact date of Father's Day confused, (the 8th or the 15th), but FD is always on a Sunday. Detectives kept mentioning the 9th which would have made it 38 days since Casey had seen Caylee. Why did she allow LE to go on and on questioning her about the 9th? Cindy and Casey had to have sat down at some point and decided on this time frame together without ever bothering to look at a calendar. IMO

Just a random thought: is it possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy? Jumped in between them? Or that she was choked like Casey supposedly was? I've read that Cindy was battered looking in some pix, but haven't seen them. Did Casey give Cindy a beatdown during that altercation?

I had considered the idea at one time that Caylee died during the altercation but then rejected it. That would mean hat Cindy and George would have to be in on it from the first. I don't think they were, judging be Cindy's comments to 911 and the way George talked at the tow yard. JMO, of course.

[lorettalockhorn]

It is possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy. It's also possible that George and Lee saw it happen. How would that change the prosecution of Casey?

Well, for starters, Cindy might be responsible or equally responsible for Caylee's death. I don't necessarily think that George saw it happen. And I don't necessarily think that Lee has told the truth about what he may or may not have been told. Of course, whatever he was told by Casey can be immediately discounted just on general principle.

I had considered the idea at one time that Caylee died during the altercation but then rejected it. That would mean hat Cindy and George would have to be in on it from the first. I don't think they were, judging be Cindy's comments to 911 and the way George talked at the tow yard. JMO, of course.

I don't think George was in on it at the very first. I think Cindy and Casey could have easily concocted some cock and bull to tell him to make themselves seem innocent, i.e. Zanny did it. I do think it's possible that George lied about seeing Casey and Caylee on the 16th, and his reaction to the mere memory of the smell of human decomposition in the car seems bona fide.

At any rate, I truly believe that G&C know more than they've admitted to LE, and that the lies that they have told have been scripted with Casey's help and we told for the sole purpose of obstructing justice.

(Of course, I may change my mind tomorrow!)

ETA There was something that has never sat right with me about the recording of the 911 call. Cindy seems to report Caylee missing on second though. Like the car is more important than the kidnapping. But I've never heard exactly what Casey was saying in the background clearly, nor do the transcripts outline what was being said. When I add that to her fractious tone about the smell of a dead body in the damned car, I am repulsed.

[deputydi]

**********************************************
The Judge ordered a couple days ago that all autopsy material must be turned over to the defense. As the case is in the discovery stage, anything the state has to use MUST be turned over to the defense if it is to used at trial. The actual witness lists are available on line; the autopsy results may not have been what the state expected. The state isn't omnipotent, better to over charge & drop down than under charge at the beginning and say "Guess WHAT!, this is worse than we thought", it doesn't help the state at trial. I noticed that agg. manslaughter is included in the charges, the state is covering their bases.
Yes, it all must be turned over to the defense in a timely manner -- that doesn't mean it must be made public. I've seen the witness lists but they don't say much. The pros has more names on their list than they will use and the defense will have to prepare for each one -- just in case. I have a feeling you know all about the "games that are played".

[deputydi]

I had considered the idea at one time that Caylee died during the altercation but then rejected it. That would mean hat Cindy and George would have to be in on it from the first. I don't think they were, judging be Cindy's comments to 911 and the way George talked at the tow yard. JMO, of course.
I agree that is highly unlikely. Cindy was obviously distraught when she made that first call and I can't imagine her making that reference to a "dead body in the damned car" if she already knew Caylee was dead.

[lorettalockhorn]

Very interesting. In other words, Cindy could not attack Casey for poor mothering because it would be a reflection on her own mothering skills? So she has the "It's all about me" thing going on and threw the baby out with the bath water?
WOW!

That conclusion simply cannot (and should not) be drawn. You see crummy parents, child abuse and neglect and child sexual abuse across all classes of society, regardless of parental or grandparental involvement or control. (That said, I do think Cindy is a really lousy parent.) You also see children who grow up in abyssmal households become great parents.

I think things would have been very different if Cindy had either 1) asked LE to do a welfare check on Caylee early on, and/or 2) followed through on the advice of the counselor to seek custody of Caylee (if that's not a lie). If LE had not been able to locate Casey and/or Caylee, The Liar wouldn't have had such a head start in the case. Had Cindy started the ball rolling on a custody process, there would have been a homestudy, and Casey's job, Zenaida's existence, and the dubious childcare arrangements for the past 1 1/2 - two years would have been exposed, and Caylee very likely would have been minimally placed under some sort of guardianship or temporary custody until Casey could complete parenting classes, and set her self up to provide for Caylee. Of couse, that would have been during or after she completed any sentences associated with her financial crimes (or however those charges are classified).

IF Cindy had been found to be no better a custodian than Casey, it would have been discovered and Caylee would still most likely be alive. A placement of Caylee could have been found, or the situation could have been closely monitored. These people; the Anthonys who want to appear so normal and have jobs within well respected circles of "the system" appear to me to be afraid of the system to the point of avoiding it. Gotta wonder why. It cost Caylee her life.

[Anton Chigurh]

Yes Gator, that's all true and yet as I look at the big picture there is still something missing. I hope the prosecution team gets into her childhood because I want to see the makings of this killer come into the canvas or I might never trust another human being in my life again. There had to be clues to the possibility of this crime way before it happened. I am sure the Anthony's knew she was capable of this. Then I'll want to know why they were dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of her head problems. (If sociopath disorder has a cause besides physiological or hard wiring at birth.)

From my understanding, sociopath is personality disorder, not mental illness bases on how everything or parents impacts their lives. In most cases, if not all, became sociopath after growing up from infant or toddler to teen, not born with it. People with mental illness can be recovering from treatments to medicines, sometimes they were born with and stay with them forever but most personality disorders usually stay within forever or for a long time which people with them do have choices on doing something about it. Sometimes people claim personality disorders can be genetics, well if the mother or father have some certain kinds of disorders like bipolar, then yes but not always. If someone else to take care of those children from infants or toddlers instead of their parents whom are sociopaths, surely their lives would be much different in comparisons. Sociopath isn’t necessary a genetic. People with mental illness usually or should be in mental hospital depending on how serious conditions they have, but people with personality disorders or sociopath that have done some crimes are usually sent to jails or prisons. I don’t know if anyone is a sociopath in Casey’s life like one of her parents, but it more likely Casey learned and copied during her growing up or that she grew up so spoiled to become one. Many times, children with terrible parents turned out to be great persons in their lives, while children with parents who are opposite turn out to be terrible. My suspect that Casey and Scott Peterson grew up so spoiled, they think everything still should go in the ways they like, which is why they got rid of Caylee and Laci. Sociopaths tend to think inward, not outward, which it is their choice to make. JMO

[javahog]

Now that you say that it hit me. She seems to think that she is the smartest person around. She probably thinks that she is sooo much smarter than LE that she can spin her lies and they will believe them.

It worked on her dad for years, why not the cops? I really think she believes she is smarter than LE and has all of her bases covered. To take a look at her smarts, it would have made a much more believable story if she would have said that a stranger took Caylee and gave her the script, which, BTW I have never seen or heard existed other than from her mother and her.

Hey guys! My Ouija board magically gave me a copy of the Zenaida "script":

Day 1: strip nearly naked, get drunk, dirty dance with some girls.
Day 2: rinse and repeat. Do this every day for 31 days.
Day 31: arrange to be "caught" by your mother. Make yourself look as guilty as possible. After that, just...you know, kind of make it up as you go along...

[lorettalockhorn]

Yes and double yes.

Looking at the house, the lifestyle, cars, furniture, employment and general appearances of this family, I'm sure the system would have been hard pressed to find any obvious problems that would warrant the removal of Caylee from their home. It's too bad that dysfunction on the subtle mental levels is so difficult to see. After all, the home was spotless and the furniture was white. Cindy is a nurse (?) and George was an ex cop. Casey was relatively well dressed and once worked at Universal,, what obvious reason would the system find to take Caylee away?

The obvious reason would be that Casey was about to serve time, and if the homestudy was done poorly (and we've all read horrible things about the Florida system; like the case of Rilya), it's possible that Cindy wouldn't have been able to convince CFS that Casey was unfit even upon the discovery that the job and the babysitter didn't exist and that therefore Caylee might have been at risk. But, once Casey went to jail for her crimes, she would have had to sign custody or guardianship over to someone with or without court intervention.

I just find it ironic that the Ants seem to tout their status as upstanding members of society and part of the system, but don't seem to have wanted to avail themselves of its benefits.

I find Cindy to be particularly disgusting; in fact I think there are maybe two Cindys when it comes to Casey. The scolding harridan and the permissive doter.

[deputydi]

That conclusion simply cannot (and should not) be drawn. You see crummy parents, child abuse and neglect and child sexual abuse across all classes of society, regardless of parental or grandparental involvement or control. (That said, I do think Cindy is a really lousy parent.) You also see children who grow up in abyssmal households become great parents.

I think things would have been very different if Cindy had either 1) asked LE to do a welfare check on Caylee early on, and/or 2) followed through on the advice of the counselor to seek custody of Caylee (if that's not a lie). If LE had not been able to locate Casey and/or Caylee, The Liar wouldn't have had such a head start in the case. Had Cindy started the ball rolling on a custody process, there would have been a homestudy, and Casey's job, Zenaida's existence, and the dubious childcare arrangements for the past 1 1/2 - two years would have been exposed, and Caylee very likely would have been minimally placed under some sort of guardianship or temporary custody until Casey could complete parenting classes, and set her self up to provide for Caylee. Of couse, that would have been during or after she completed any sentences associated with her financial crimes (or however those charges are classified).

IF Cindy had been found to be no better a custodian than Casey, it would have been discovered and Caylee would still most likely be alive. A placement of Caylee could have been found, or the situation could have been closely monitored. These people; the Anthonys who want to appear so normal and have jobs within well respected circles of "the system" appear to me to be afraid of the system to the point of avoiding it. Gotta wonder why. It cost Caylee her life.
I couldn't agree more with your first paragraph.

We know very little about Casey's early life and I honestly hesitate to automatically blame the parents when something goes wrong with the child. I don't think Cindy was a perfect parent but, who is? We don't know if G & C were too permissive or too strict. We don't know if Casey was raised feeling somehow inferior to her brother. We don't know if she was ignored or neglected. What do we really know about G & C's parenting? The most attentive, concerned parent can turn out a child that simply won't accept conventional rules of morality. The reverse is also true.

Looking into Scott Peterson's background, it's easy to draw a couple of conclusions by what we know of his upbringing. Jackie and Lee treated Scott as their "golden child". He could do no wrong in their eyes and anything bad that happened was always someone else's fault. By their actions, they created the self-centered monster he became. We learned all this through the testimony at trial and the books written after his conviction. Right now, we don't know much of anything about the Anthonys.

George and Cindy seem to be decent, law abiding and hard working people who find themselves living a nightmare. Why do you suppose they haven't visited Casey in prison? Not one time since she's been charged with murder! I am well aware of the reason they have given, but I don't believe it for a nano second. If they really believed their daughter was completely innocent of these charges, don't you suppose they would have been there, at the very least, to console her when Caylee's remains were identified? I am certain in my own mind that they know what she did. They loved Caylee just as they love their daughter and their grief on both counts is real and profound. They probably can't bear to even look at Casey right now -- that's why (IMO) they haven't had any contact with her.

It is so easy for those of us on a message board to sit back and judge them and their parenting. Sure they made mistakes -- didn't we all? I raised three children and they are all adults, none of whom are in jail. I thank God every day that they all turned out to be productive members of society. When they were growing up, there were many, many times I questioned whether I was making the right decisions and felt inadequate as a parent. My middle child could have gone either way and even now (he's 30) I wonder if I could have done things differently with him. I won't bore you with the details, but occasionally he still gives me sleepless nights and I worry about him.

Since babies don't come with instruction manuals, how does any parent know whether they are doing the right thing? What works for one child doesn't necessarily work for another and, for the most part, the entire process is trial and error.

[lorettalockhorn]

Hey guys! My Ouija board magically gave me a copy of the Zenaida "script":

Day 1: strip nearly naked, get drunk, dirty dance with some girls.
Day 2: rinse and repeat. Do this every day for 31 days.
Day 31: arrange to be "caught" by your mother. Make yourself look as guilty as possible. After that, just...you know, kind of make it up as you go along...

LMAO Doncha wonder whatever became of that script? Did Casey lose it when her cellphone went bye bye?

[lorettalockhorn]

I couldn't agree more with your first paragraph.

We know very little about Casey's early life and I honestly hesitate to automatically blame the parents when something goes wrong with the child. I don't think Cindy was a perfect parent but, who is? We don't know if G & C were too permissive or too strict. We don't know if Casey was raised feeling somehow inferior to her brother. We don't know if she was ignored or neglected. What do we really know about G & C's parenting? The most attentive, concerned parent can turn out a child that simply won't accept conventional rules of morality. The reverse is also true.

Looking into Scott Peterson's background, it's easy to draw a couple of conclusions by what we know of his upbringing. Jackie and Lee treated Scott as their "golden child". He could do no wrong in their eyes and anything bad that happened was always someone else's fault. By their actions, they created the self-centered monster he became. We learned all this through the testimony at trial and the books written after his conviction. Right now, we don't know much of anything about the Anthonys.

George and Cindy seem to be decent, law abiding and hard working people who find themselves living a nightmare. Why do you suppose they haven't visited Casey in prison? Not one time since she's been charged with murder! I am well aware of the reason they have given, but I don't believe it for a nano second. If they really believed their daughter was completely innocent of these charges, don't you suppose they would have been there, at the very least, to console her when Caylee's remains were identified? I am certain in my own mind that they know what she did. They loved Caylee just as they love their daughter and their grief on both counts is real and profound. They probably can't bear to even look at Casey right now -- that's why (IMO) they haven't had any contact with her.

It is so easy for those of us on a message board to sit back and judge them and their parenting. Sure they made mistakes -- didn't we all? I raised three children and they are all adults, none of whom are in jail. I thank God every day that they all turned out to be productive members of society. When they were growing up, there were many, many times I questioned whether I was making the right decisions and felt inadequate as a parent. My middle child could have gone either way and even now (he's 30) I wonder if I could have done things differently with him. I won't bore you with the details, but occasionally he still gives me sleepless nights and I worry about him.

Since babies don't come with instruction manuals, how does any parent know whether they are doing the right thing? What works for one child doesn't necessarily work for another and, for the most part, the entire process is trial and error.

Great post! I think Cindy's mistake was obvious, she didn't check up on Caylee when her sociopathic daughter couldn't even produce her for a phone convo day after day after day. And she knew in her gut something was wrong, because she posted on myspace(?) that she was losing sleep over the situation.

That said, all of our kids could be a Jewish mother's dream; the highest paid doctor in Beverly Hills or Miami, and some of us would still sit and rock in the dark and deign. Night and day.

[deputydi]

The obvious reason would be that Casey was about to serve time, and if the homestudy was done poorly (and we've all read horrible things about the Florida system; like the case of Rilya), it's possible that Cindy wouldn't have been able to convince CFS that Casey was unfit even upon the discovery that the job and the babysitter didn't exist and that therefore Caylee might have been at risk. But, once Casey went to jail for her crimes, she would have had to sign custody or guardianship over to someone with or without court intervention.
<snip>
Danagher's post questioned what "obvious problems. . . would warrant the removal of Caylee from their home". Yes, the fact that Casey was about to serve time would warrant temp guardianship assignment, but not removal from the home and a trial on those charges was about a year away. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I kind of get the feeling you would have Caylee placed in a foster home rather than with Cindy and George. Even if CPS had been called, there was really nothing for them to investigate. Nothing, at least, that involved the child. Yes, Casey had forged some checks and stolen some money. She was facing, if convicted, a possible jail sentence. She probably would have had a relatively low bond and would have been back home in less than a week. This is all assuming Cindy or Amy reported the stolen checks and charges had been filed in June on those charges alone. Being her first offense, the judge would probably have gone lightly on her come sentencing time. It is possible that she would have served a minimum sentence (possibly even probation) and ordered to pay restitution. Where is CPS's role in all of this? They investigate cases involving child abuse, neglect, living conditions, etc. -- all having to do with a child. At this juncture -- before a trial or a conviction on the check charges -- CPS has no role in where Caylee lives or with whom.

[deputydi]

Great post! I think Cindy's mistake was obvious, she didn't check up on Caylee when her sociopathic daughter couldn't even produce her for a phone convo day after day after day. And she knew in her gut something was wrong, because she posted on myspace(?) that she was losing sleep over the situation.

That said, all of our kids could be a Jewish mother's dream; the highest paid doctor in Beverly Hills or Miami, and some of us would still sit and rock in the dark and deign. Night and day.
Absolutely! That would have set off alarms in my head and I don't know why Cindy just accepted the excuses Casey gave her. Not that it would have changed anything, but she's probably beating herself up for not doing something earlier.

[lorettalockhorn]

Danagher's post questioned what "obvious problems. . . would warrant the removal of Caylee from their home". Yes, the fact that Casey was about to serve time would warrant temp guardianship assignment, but not removal from the home and a trial on those charges was about a year away. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I kind of get the feeling you would have Caylee placed in a foster home rather than with Cindy and George. Even if CPS had been called, there was really nothing for them to investigate. Nothing, at least, that involved the child. Yes, Casey had forged some checks and stolen some money. She was facing, if convicted, a possible jail sentence. She probably would have had a relatively low bond and would have been back home in less than a week. This is all assuming Cindy or Amy reported the stolen checks and charges had been filed in June on those charges alone. Being her first offense, the judge would probably have gone lightly on her come sentencing time. It is possible that she would have served a minimum sentence (possibly even probation) and ordered to pay restitution. Where is CPS's role in all of this? They investigate cases involving child abuse, neglect, living conditions, etc. -- all having to do with a child. At this juncture -- before a trial or a conviction on the check charges -- CPS has no role in where Caylee lives or with whom.

Well, if you believe that a counselor of some sort instructed that Cindy should seek custody, there must have been some red flags that we don't know about, and won't learn about unless Cindy decides to come clean under oath. That's what she and George have now promised to do, right? The homestudy (I assume CPS or DFS or whatever FL calls it would have been performing this task, someone correct me if I'm wrong) would have entailed looking at every aspect of every member of the Anthony household. The fact that Casey didn't have a job and didn't have a nanny would have come to light, and the question of where Caylee was spending her time during Casey's "working hours" would have been in question. It's not to be assumed that Caylee would have been removed from the home. But it is very possible that Casey might have lost custody temporarily.

Now, we don't know a lot about this family counselor or the timing, but I've had the distinct impression that it was very near the time that the Ants discovered just how serious Casey's thievery was and was very near the time that she took off with Caylee. If Casey had been hauled off to jail to wait out arraignment and bail, and especially if bail hadn't been posted, the guardianship of Caylee would have been assigned, but she wouldn't have to be removed from the home if G&C were deemed fit.

I've done dozens of homestudies and they are intense and thorough and take some time to complete/assess before affidavit(s) are written, but Casey was soon to be indicted, so the course of action would have been relatively swift.

Another thing that Cindy could have done to locate Caylee, would have been to report the car that Casey was driving as stolen. That would have also cut the lead time if LE had been able to locate the car. And apparently she was driving around quite a bit, so in hindsight, it could have done quite a bit to speed up the murder case against Casey.

That G&C both did nothing to qualm their own worries stymies me.

[lorettalockhorn]

Omigosh, how did I forget this? Read on another board that the National Enquirer has an article that Casey has turned to God and is reading and studying her Bible. Supposedly the Enquirer talked to the Baptist preacher who has befriended the Anthonys. Anyone going to the Seven Eleven? Can you pick one up and transcribe it for us? Looked on their site, but didn't see anything more updated than Kiomarie's story in the 12/27 issue.

[javahog]

Okay. Right. I understand now what you said in the original post on this topic. Yes, if Casey were arrested, Caylee would have been safe in someone else's custody while she did time.

Right, on the superficial life they lead and right on the 2 Cindy's. I can't even stand the hard cold face she has. I had a nightmare about her this week and had a vision of her face up close. Ooof! I belive she was living vicariously through Casey and may have felt jealousy toward her. I believe Jesse told the truth when he said Cindy made Caylee call her mommy, which is a clear indication that she wanted to be Casey. I believe also that she loved to upset Casey by doting on Caylee.

As for the doting.. here is where I believe Casey in her frustration, openly threatened to hurt Caylee. Cindy was justifiably terrified of Casey. I believe that.

I understand why Cindy wouldn't have pushed the unfitness of Casey. If Cindy came out against Casey with social services and the checks, yes, Casey might have gone away for a while over the checks and not had custody. But Casey would have put on a good face, played the game, and gotten Caylee back. And made very sure Cindy NEVER saw Caylee again as revenge. We've all heard enough CPS stories to see how many cases are badly handled...I think Cindy thought it was better to work with what she was used to than risk bringing outsiders into it.

Just a thought...is Florida a grandparents rights state?
all imos...

[javahog]

Omigosh, how did I forget this? Read on another board that the National Enquirer has an article that Casey has turned to God and is reading and studying her Bible. Supposedly the Enquirer talked to the Baptist preacher who has befriended the Anthonys. Anyone going to the Seven Eleven? Can you pick one up and transcribe it for us? Looked on their site, but didn't see anything more updated than Kiomarie's story in the 12/27 issue.

Hmmn....God. Plan B.

[Peachallie]

Danagher's post questioned what "obvious problems. . . would warrant the removal of Caylee from their home". Yes, the fact that Casey was about to serve time would warrant temp guardianship assignment, but not removal from the home and a trial on those charges was about a year away. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you but I kind of get the feeling you would have Caylee placed in a foster home rather than with Cindy and George. Even if CPS had been called, there was really nothing for them to investigate. Nothing, at least, that involved the child. Yes, Cindy had forged some checks and stolen some money. She was facing, if convicted, a possible jail sentence. She probably would have had a relatively low bond and would have been back home in less than a week. This is all assuming Cindy or Amy reported the stolen checks and charges had been filed in June on those charges alone. Being her first offense, the judge would probably have gone lightly on her come sentencing time. It is possible that she would have served a minimum sentence (possibly even probation) and ordered to pay restitution. Where is CPS's role in all of this? They investigate cases involving child abuse, neglect, living conditions, etc. -- all having to do with a child. At this juncture -- before a trial or a conviction on the check charges -- CPS has no role in where Caylee lives or with whom.

************************************************
The Department of Children & Family Serives (DCF or CFS) is now split between investigation & supervision. Investigation is done by the state, filing of cases and supervision of dependent children & families by private companies that bid for contracts on a county by county basis. YES, supervision of children in need is often handled by the LOWEST bidder. Bad check charges probably were not enough to file on anyway.

This sickening system was a bright idea Jeb!ro Bush had to privatize government & is a horrible mistake. Though the companies handle lots of cases (they have no limited sovereign immunity like the state) there is usually little more than a laundry list of classes, drug testing, functional home & maybe a psych eval to complete. And a complaint must be filed to involve the department in most cases. There is very little interaction & the dynamics of individual situations are ignored. As there is little to indicate anything in the situation that would have caused the Department to file, there is nothing to indicate real help for the family. If the state filed, and prevailed (the state almost always does these days) & Casey Anthony didn't complete her case plan, her parents, IF WILLING, would be named guardians. There is a chance the state would reopen the case if Caylee was turned back over to Casey....................and a chance they might not. When Rilya Wilson disappeared it was said in a national news magazine "Florida is the worst state in the nation to be a child". I hope there is no system worse than ours now.

I worked in the system as it was from 1991-1996, and began again in 2003. The system is much worse this time around. There is little intra agency communication and cooperation, and many children in need "fall through the cracks". Our cruddy legislature will NOT allocate adequate funding for children in need, and foster families struggle with rules that do not apply to individual situations with a pittance per month for care of children that usually have greater needs than others. It has taken seven 1/2 YEARS for the state to announce that funding for one more room the state says is desperately needed for a foster home MAY have become available. Were it not for my pro bono hours and assistance from my family, this foster family would have been eating beans & rice most of the time. The state did not pay one cent for an entire year after three children were placed with a great aunt by marriage. WHY? Because the STATE classified the great aunt by marriage as a relative placement, then 4 months later decided it isn't relative placement. After foster care training was completed by the caregiver I inquired about the back money owed. The response was......"we don't do that".

So you expected help for Caylee Anthony? NOT IN FLORIDA.

[lorettalockhorn]

I understand why Cindy wouldn't have pushed the unfitness of Casey. If Cindy came out against Casey with social services and the checks, yes, Casey might have gone away for a while over the checks and not had custody. But Casey would have put on a good face, played the game, and gotten Caylee back. And made very sure Cindy NEVER saw Caylee again as revenge. We've all heard enough CPS stories to see how many cases are badly handled...I think Cindy thought it was better to work with what she was used to than risk bringing outsiders into it.

Just a thought...is Florida a grandparents rights state?
all imos...

So the solution was to do nothing. Yoo hoo Cindy, how's that working for ya?

Don't know if FL has grandparents' rights on the books. I'm not talking about visitation rights, I'm talking about relative placement.

[lorettalockhorn]

Reporting the car stolen would have definitely been a good idea. It was too easy to find her and the mood Cindy was in may have prevented her from contacting her until she cooled off. Does anyone know the date she left home? Was it the day of the choking session?

Supposedly she left with Caylee that night after the choking fight, but came back the next day (6/16). That's the day that George saw them leave with backpacks around 12:50pm. For some reason, I don't believe that George saw them that day, and I don't think he was around for the showdown that Sunday night. At work maybe?

It's time to say goodnight. I'm still healing from all the Christmas doings. I'll most likely wake up around 3am and read your reports. Thank you again for all the insights and answers.

No hagnog tonight. It's fattening. ;) I was a baddddd girl all week.

:seeya:

Tell you what; I'll have an extra drink in your honor! :hat:

[lorettalockhorn]

Watch the video of Casey Anthony's best friend, Kiomarie Torres Cruz, tell her side of the story!

In a blockbuster exclusive ENQUIRER interview, the 22-year-old travel agent — who's listed as a prosecution witness in Casey's upcoming murder trial — reveals shocking details of the crime that broke America's heart.

Kiomarie discusses the area where 3-year-old Caylee's body was found and how it had been long used it as a pet cemetery!

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/media/video?bctid=5224836001

(Not deserving of those exclamation marks!!)

[javahog]

So the solution was to do nothing. Yoo hoo Cindy, how's that working for ya?

Don't know if FL has grandparents' rights on the books. I'm not talking about visitation rights, I'm talking about relative placement.

Oh, I know what you're talking about. But I think that not seeing Caylee would have been a motivator (or rather, non-motivator) for Cindy if its not a grandparents rights state...Not saying it was the right decision in retrospect.

As a more general comment, it is really sad how many kids are not helped by CPS or its variations in various states. It makes people who really should come forward not out of fear of making bad worse...

Found something that gets to both our things, Loretta: http://www.18884mydivorce.com/pub/Childcustody/grandparent-rights.htm It says that grandparents have no rights, and how they can get custody from an unfit parent....

[lorettalockhorn]

Oh, I know what you're talking about. But I think that not seeing Caylee would have been a motivator (or rather, non-motivator) for Cindy if its not a grandparents rights state...Not saying it was the right decision in retrospect.

As a more general comment, it is really sad how many kids are not helped by CPS or its variations in various states. It makes people who really should come forward not out of fear of making bad worse...

Found something that gets to both our things, Loretta: http://www.18884mydivorce.com/pub/Childcustody/grandparent-rights.htm It says that grandparents have no rights, and how they can get custody from an unfit parent....

I'll read it right now, thanks for the link, java! CPS does seem to be in a sad state of affairs nowadays.

[javahog]

I'll read it right now, thanks for the link, java! CPS does seem to be in a sad state of affairs nowadays.

Just googling grandparents rights and florida came up with some intimidating headlines...I would be real interested to know if the forensic computer guys came up with anyone doing the kind of google search I just did in the Anthony home...

[tv]

Does anyone know if Casey's lies and stealing started after June 16 or if she was doing these things before? I guess what I'm asking is if her life went down the toilet after Caylee's death or if she'd been up to her tricks for years? I'm just a little confused about that part of the timeline.

I know she lied about Zanny and having a job before Caylee disappeared but did she lie about other things too?

[sharlock]

Though most books that made it to publication were based on truth, I cannot imagine this story making it beyond the slush pile. The first reader would throw it against the wall. It would read like this:

Clarabelle was in the park and the boogeyman came out from behind a tree and hit Clarabelle on the nose and took her beep beep. Then Howdy Doody ran up the hill and saw Spot who lived in the garbage can that doesn't exist. Spot also lived in other places.

Then the search began for the beep beep and the boogeyman didn't exist.... but Clarabelle was afraid Howdy Doody and the boogeyman were going to threaten her family and the beep beep might get hurt. So she waited 30 days, unintentionally because she was busy and had no time because Howdy Doody ate the boogeyman and she was working as a dirty dancer to earn money to find Beep Beep.

Then she got scared and confused and tried to find the Boogeyman in the clubs where she" knew her to hang out." The boogeyman was tall, short, rich, poor, had roommates, lived with her mom, had her own place and also a house and also an apartment where beep beep stayed at times and then not at times, and had no phone service.

But she dropped beep beep off on the stairs not necessarily in the apartment when she took care of her, but then she also took care of her at Jeff's and also at the house which is a Nursing Home. Run Spot Run!

Did it hit the wall yet?

Sorry folks,, I just hadda brain fart. I'll be fine in a moment or two.

:seeya:

I can't take it!
Lol, you forgot the part where the boogey man had to steal her freinds phones to make calls to her on the odd occasion.

[sharlock]

Casey has a long history of stealing and lying. She lied about being preggers up until her 7mth and C@G beleived her. She stole from her Great Grandma and then from a fund of her Great Grandads that was supposed to be for his nursing home. Cindy said to her mum that she had to replace money stolen from Casey using her her 401k. This all happened well before Caylee went missing. We know too that she lied about working for Universal for 2 years and before that had seaid she worked with her best freindat a sports store so she had excuses to stay out late supposedly replacingstock, she even lied about being robbed at gunpoint in this fictitious job. I think she had been lying and stealing ever since was a teenager myself if not before but the lies got progressively more extravagant and the amounts being taken and the manner in which she stole got higher and more cunning. Noone is as calm and as good at forging checks using them at supermarkets and withdrawing cashe using forged checks in banks like she did without some practice imo.

[sharlock]

Originally Posted by Danagher
[/b]

It appeared to me that Casey was drugged when she was being interviewed. What ever the drug was, (if any) it had to be akin to Thorazine. She sounded very zoned out. I've seen people break down and cry during police interrogations for a lot less than murder. Old and young, guilty or not, I have never seen anyone under investigation sound that cold and indifferent. If those tapes are played in the courtroom, they will be her guillotine regardless of the facts, fingerprints or anything else.
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Then it'll be up to the 5th DCA to say whether or there is enough evidence on the record for the jury to so have concluded. Computer searches on a machine in her parents' home done months before Caylee Anthony's death that MAY tie in to something there is no proof occurred (neck breaking) probably doesn't cut it. Evidence of unnatural occurrence of chloroform in the toxicology testing probably would. The defense has everything the state has at this point & the right to do their own tests. If the defense remains quiet, that is good news for the prosecution.

Peach I just wanted to say that I enjoy reading your posts. It is good to hear about the case from a different and informed perspective.

[tv]

Casey has a long history of stealing and lying. She lied about being preggers up until her 7mth and C@G beleived her. She stole from her Great Grandma and then from a fund of her Great Grandads that was supposed to be for his nursing home. Cindy said to her mum that she had to replace money stolen from Casey using her her 401k. This all happened well before Caylee went missing. We know too that she lied about working for Universal for 2 years and before that had seaid she worked with her best freindat a sports store so she had excuses to stay out late supposedly replacingstock, she even lied about being robbed at gunpoint in this fictitious job. I think she had been lying and stealing ever since was a teenager myself if not before but the lies got progressively more extravagant and the amounts being taken and the manner in which she stole got higher and more cunning. Noone is as calm and as good at forging checks using them at supermarkets and withdrawing cashe using forged checks in banks like she did without some practice imo.

Thanks, Sharlock, I'd forgotten about half of the stuff she lied about. How could I forget her being robbed at gunpoint story? I think she lies about some things just to stay in practice!

[Anton Chigurh]

Yes and double yes.

Looking at the house, the lifestyle, cars, furniture, employment and general appearances of this family, I'm sure the system would have been hard pressed to find any obvious problems that would warrant the removal of Caylee from their home. It's too bad that dysfunction on the subtle mental levels is so difficult to see. After all, the home was spotless and the furniture was white. Cindy is a nurse (?) and George was an ex cop. Casey was relatively well dressed and once worked at Universal,, what obvious reason would the system find to take Caylee away?

I don’t think there are any systems that can do that nowadays, perhaps in future. Maybe having some new systems that can prevent parents from having kids by going through some evaluations before they go ahead procreating to determine if parents are fit enough to have and raise kids. I think prevention is best option and cheaper, otherwise a new system could monitor every child in America 24/7 until they are adults which probably would cost taxpayers more than medicare or social security. For example, I read article about a woman who have been paying drug addicts to get them fixed to prevent them from having kids which is a good idea. Most sociopaths who do have kids don’t kill them, but to give them away or have someone to take care of them. So I think there should be new systems to focus on about giving more and better options for parents to get aid that they & their kids can be comfort with. It would probably be a long term, but may be worth it like babysitters that state can pay for parents who cannot afford one. State’s babysitter could note in their log for example if Casey frequently drops Caylee off at babysitter so she can go party all times, then state could put Casey under red but in subtle way. There were problem with Nebraska law that parents can turn in their unwanted infants with no age limit, but more parents have been giving their teens away instead because they do not know other ways to get help. So the systems need to improve on how to spread the information to every parent as possible for them or their children to get help. I read somewhere about Casey got into fight with her parents before Caylee’s disappearance, they might have cornered Casey somehow, which is dangerous thing to do to a sociopath, especially putting Caylee into risk, then it was too late. Casey’s parents might be secretly regretting about it, I don’t know.

The question begs why Casey had Caylee in first place. Her ex-finance, Jesse Grund, said she wanted to have baby, which I believe that’s where her narcissism personality disorder came in. Casey couldn’t go ahead marry Jesse and to live a normal life, but she used Jesse to get pregnant, probably to impress her parents and friends. She tends to think in short term, not long term. I think Casey depended on or used her parents for her living, maybe at the point they were going to kick her out of their nest, so she had Caylee. I have seen many mothers who have kids on purpose so they can still depend on their parents. But anyone with sociopath and narcissism are dangerous when they come to combine, especially when they are cornered. I don’t know if Casey’s parents ever notice Casey’s personality disorders in order to get her and Caylee some help, but it looked like they weren’t being progressive if they did. With them still standing by Casey today, it seems they still have blinders on believing Casey is innocent like Scott Peterson’s parents. They may still do love them, but how they are still nurturing their children’s abnormal behaviors isn’t doing any good. Maybe new systems to teach parents better and various ways on how to nurture their children, like improve parenting classes, stuff like that. JMO

[Peachallie]

So the solution was to do nothing. Yoo hoo Cindy, how's that working for ya?

Don't know if FL has grandparents' rights on the books. I'm not talking about visitation rights, I'm talking about relative placement.
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Yes Chapter 752; all state laws were limited by the USSC holding in Troxel v. Granville (2000) however. For a grandparent to be awarded primary physical residence (custody per the UCCJA*) the grandparent must show abuse, neglect or abandonment that meets the level of Chapter 39 unless death of the parents is shown. (Chapter 39 is the statute Department of Children & Family Services files under.) DCF or CFS are the references to Children & Family Services.


*Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act.

[lorettalockhorn]

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Yes Chapter 752; all state laws were limited by the USSC holding in Troxel v. Granville (2000) however. For a grandparent to be awarded primary physical residence (custody per the UCCJA*) the grandparent must show abuse, neglect or abandonment that meets the level of Chapter 39 unless death of the parents is shown. (Chapter 39 is the statute Department of Children & Family Services files under.) DCF or CFS are the references to Children & Family Services.


*Uniform Child Custody Jurisdiction Act.

Once again, I am not necessarily talking about Casey relinquishing her parental rights (but there is no telling what Cindy was talking about), I'm talking about relative placement or guardianship until Casey completed parenting courses or whatever course would have been recommended, and/or some sort of guardianship while Casey served time for her economic crimes. Surely Cindy's therapist was going to guide her through this process. I think leaving Caylee with an invisible nanny for eight hours a day, or (possibly) drugging her and leaving her God knows where would qualify as neglect and abandonment.

G&C HAD to know that Casey didn't work; she didn't have a paycheck or W2 forms, or W4s (or whatever that is that you send in with your tax return), and she had nothing to show for her childcare expenses. I'm telling you, if G&C are not held accountable for their part in Caylee's death, I will be as much (if not more) disappointed in the judicial system than if Casey doesn't pay with life, either behind bars OR at the hands of the executioner.

[lorettalockhorn]

I would like to know what she did with all that stolen money. I'm still of the belief that she was playing with some expensive drugs. We've discussed this at length, and I know sociopaths steal, and they do it with a smile, but.... her behaviors are so similar to an addict.

I also cannot understand why Cindy covered for her. (Never mind, I do know. She was trying to save her social face. I'm sure Casey knew that and took full advantage of it.)

I want to know about the money too. So far we've seen that she bought cheap bras and Tyson chicken. Where did the tens of thousands go? Did she just drive around with a paper bag full of money? None of what she stole was ever in a checking account? Surely her possible drug use was part of the psych evaluation which is now sealed. Maybe, hopefully we'll find out.

[Amy]

Lee Anthony's attorney, Thomas Luka, on possible charges which could be brought against his client.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/myfox/MyFox/pages/sidebar_video.jsp?contentId=8151104&version=1&locale=EN-US

Luka states that the Anthonys aren't witnesses? HUH? Does he mean not witnesses to the crime? Because I'm pretty sure that they are on The State's witness list.

Methinks, if he is going to adequately "support and advise" (not defend, you know, because Lee has done nothing wrong) his client, he should take the time to read up on the case, figure out some of the basics--like, who is on what witness list, so he can advise his client about testifying!!!!!! I realize he just came on the scene, but don't you think it would be wise to kind of check the situation out before making public speeches? Wonder if he just has Lee ask him questions, and he answers without looking into the particulars of this case?

[Peachallie]

The system is funded by those we elect to office. WE are at fault to some degree. The taxpayers of Florida want CHEAP government & that is just what we got with Jeb!ro Bush & Co. To SAVE MONEY the system WAS changed. There is little pre suit intervention, and fewer "voluntary services" offered. And yes, the competing private companies look for signs of injury, lack of electricity & food in the home, and drug charges filed against the parents. Children's services have been streamlined; if a problem doesn't fit into a neat category, it ain't a problem. Lives may be lost but $$$$ is saved.

[Amy]

The meter reader did not have a key to the house but Zanny did, according to Casey. Not sure why as she had all kinds of stuff for Caylee and had never met any of the family.

Just another little piece of the puzzle that proves to me there is no nanny. Cindy, a controlling type person, is calm and cool when her daughter advises her she has given a key to CINDY's home to someone Cindy has never met, never talked to!!! Oh, yeah, I can see Cindy saying "Well, that was a good thing to do, Casey, in case Zanny needed something for Caylee (that she didn't already have or couldn't buy w/all her riches) when there is no one home." NOT!!!!!!

No, she calmly says to Casey, so, you gave a key to the nanny? They KNEW they were being audio taped @ the least, I guess they would have been told video also. In addition to talking in code (you could see them pausing to think about how to word each reply) IMO, they wanted to make sure certain "clues" were blatant enough for LE to pick up on. "Let's talk about giving a key to the nanny, so they will think there was someone else who had access to the house." AND, with their concern about placing someone else in the house, IMO, the murder had to have occured there on the A property.

I've been waiting for Cindy to expand on her statement that MOY Casey always carried a second car key in her pocket in case her keys were ever locked in the car w/Caylee in it. I've been expecting to hear how Casey either gave the key to Zanny, or in the kidnapping in the park story, how Zanny stole the key she knew Casey had in her pocket, and used that key to drive the car around. So, anything in the trunk was put there by Zanny.:shrug:

[Amy]

Well George (or any of the Anthonys) is going to look like a mighty poor security guard if he didn't notice Zanny in the house, on the computer while Casey was "at work". Not to mention, Zanny would have had Caylee with her. He didn't notice Caylee either??

Okay, let's see. Hmmmm.........Okay!!! Now, Zanny must have a substitute nanny, you know, she needed someone to watch her charges when SHE went out to night clubs. So, when Zanny wanted to go to Cindy's to get on Casey's computer (Casey either TOLD her the passwords and such, or Nanny, whom I am sure is a member of MENSA, figured it out or stole it if Casey had written it somewhere.) Then, all she had to do was wait for George to leave for work, and be gone before Cindy returned from work. (Was George working in March or whenever?) Blasted!!!! Dang, all that thinking and now I have to work on a scenario to get George out of the house!!!! Now, according to Casey, you know she was out of the house w/all her event planning responsibilities!!!!

[lorettalockhorn]

Methinks, if he is going to adequately "support and advise" (not defend, you know, because Lee has done nothing wrong) his client, he should take the time to read up on the case, figure out some of the basics--like, who is on what witness list, so he can advise his client about testifying!!!!!! I realize he just came on the scene, but don't you think it would be wise to kind of check the situation out before making public speeches? Wonder if he just has Lee ask him questions, and he answers without looking into the particulars of this case?

Since when do cooperative witnesses need an attorney to advise them what to tell or not tell investigators? Helllllloooooo Tell the truth. And save yourself a pretty penny.

This Luka guy sounds by all accounts to be a well-respected attorney, but I'm so jaded that any time I see someone attach themselves to this case, I'm immediately suspicious. Luka comes out with this information that Lee will be reimbursing any funds that were misused or however it was worded, like that's going to make problems go away. If Lee misused funds he should be prosecuted AND make restitution. Period.

[Amy]

His big oops was referring to Lee as Caylee's father, rather than her uncle. His smaller oops was opening his mouth at all. Why did he say that the Anthonys aren't witnesses? And why did he announce that funds will be paid back? Shouldn't he be announcing that funds have been paid back? How long is this little SNAFU going to take to remedy?

Is there anyone anywhere connected to the Anthonys who doesn't come off as an idiot?

Only one--and one reason he does not look like an idiot is that he WAS connected w/the Anthony's but was smart enough to get out--Mark NeJames. I haven't watched him on any of the shows, but other posters have been impressed.

[lorettalockhorn]

Just another little piece of the puzzle that proves to me there is no nanny. Cindy, a controlling type person, is calm and cool when her daughter advises her she has given a key to CINDY's home to someone Cindy has never met, never talked to!!! Oh, yeah, I can see Cindy saying "Well, that was a good thing to do, Casey, in case Zanny needed something for Caylee (that she didn't already have or couldn't buy w/all her riches) when there is no one home." NOT!!!!!!

No, she calmly says to Casey, so, you gave a key to the nanny? They KNEW they were being audio taped @ the least, I guess they would have been told video also. In addition to talking in code (you could see them pausing to think about how to word each reply) IMO, they wanted to make sure certain "clues" were blatant enough for LE to pick up on. "Let's talk about giving a key to the nanny, so they will think there was someone else who had access to the house." AND, with their concern about placing someone else in the house, IMO, the murder had to have occured there on the A property.

I've been waiting for Cindy to expand on her statement that MOY Casey always carried a second car key in her pocket in case her keys were ever locked in the car w/Caylee in it. I've been expecting to hear how Casey either gave the key to Zanny, or in the kidnapping in the park story, how Zanny stole the key she knew Casey had in her pocket, and used that key to drive the car around. So, anything in the trunk was put there by Zanny.:shrug:

I'm betting that key business was scripted. No reaction from Cindy about a *gasp* Hispanic having a key to her house. No locks changed. No reports of anything taken from the house or anything out of order.

[Amy]

It is possible that Caylee was fatally injured or died instantly as a result of the fight between Casey and Cindy. It's also possible that George and Lee saw it happen. How would that change the prosecution of Casey?

If that were the case, I wonder how and when they would have chosen Casey to be the fall guy?

They go on about their lives for a month. They go ballistic when they get the notice the car is in the towyard. All of a sudden, Cindy demands that Casey return home? (THAT is witnessed by Amy, TonE and on other guy.) If they knew from the start, they had to have known Caylee was in the car @ some point. (All of them agree to leave her there til they come up with a good place to put her?) George went back to work. He calls Lee to come help calm his mom. Cindy, Lee and Casey are @ the house for the report and for the police contact. Do THEY come up w/some story (which they must not have told George all the particulars right away) right then, or just started on a story and have continued in dribs and drabs as they went along?

Was it the smell in the car and George is afraid the towyard guy might think about it and call LE (he did, but ONLY after the missing report was on the tv.) AND, who would have had the final say about who to sacrifice? Why Casey and not Lee? Or George? Or Cindy? Or, why not just continue on as they had? Of course, @ some point they would have to deal w/grandma, uncle rick, the Ohio relatives about why Caylee is never around.

[Amy]

Hey guys! My Ouija board magically gave me a copy of the Zenaida "script":

Day 1: strip nearly naked, get drunk, dirty dance with some girls.
Day 2: rinse and repeat. Do this every day for 31 days.
Day 31: arrange to be "caught" by your mother. Make yourself look as guilty as possible. After that, just...you know, kind of make it up as you go along...

I wonder if stealing checks and money and credit cards and shopping sprees @ Target and JCPennys were in the script? Of course, Casey seemed to have already done that stuff from her parents and grandparents (and little Caylee) so she might have just continued in her ways on that.

[Peachallie]

Once again, I am not necessarily talking about Casey relinquishing her parental rights (but there is no telling what Cindy was talking about), I'm talking about relative placement or guardianship until Casey completed parenting courses or whatever course would have been recommended, and/or some sort of guardianship while Casey served time for her economic crimes. Surely Cindy's therapist was going to guide her through this process. I think leaving Caylee with an invisible nanny for eight hours a day, or (possibly) drugging her and leaving her God knows where would qualify as neglect and abandonment.

G&C HAD to know that Casey didn't work; she didn't have a paycheck or W2 forms, or W4s (or whatever that is that you send in with your tax return), and she had nothing to show for her childcare expenses. I'm telling you, if G&C are not held accountable for their part in Caylee's death, I will be as much (if not more) disappointed in the judicial system than if Casey doesn't pay with life, either behind bars OR at the hands of the executioner.
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Unless Casey Anthony consented to a guardianship, or a Chapter 39 action was filed, a Chapter 751 action was their only option. The standard of proof is very similar to Chapter 39. A Chapter 752 action would have written the grandparents visitation rights in stone, and MIGHT have ben easier to turn into custody under 751, but again, a 751 action, unless the parent(s) consents does mean calling the parent unfit. As the CFS workers today term it, the elder Anthonys were not "strong enough". Casey Anthony appears to have been too selfish to relinquish the hold she had over her parents: their grandchild.

And HEY! Her party friends thought she was a "good mother"; she showed up when the cameras were out.:(

[Amy]

Omigosh, how did I forget this? Read on another board that the National Enquirer has an article that Casey has turned to God and is reading and studying her Bible. Supposedly the Enquirer talked to the Baptist preacher who has befriended the Anthonys. Anyone going to the Seven Eleven? Can you pick one up and transcribe it for us? Looked on their site, but didn't see anything more updated than Kiomarie's story in the 12/27 issue.

I was in the stores Friday, and there wasn't anything (in headline @ least) about Casey turning to God, etc. Those (Globe, I guess, am not sure what the other one was) still had the stuff about finding the body and the mag's theory of what all went down. (Can't remember all they had, as I only skim a bit for something "new".)

[Amy]

Reporting the car stolen would have definitely been a good idea. It was too easy to find her and the mood Cindy was in may have prevented her from contacting her until she cooled off. Does anyone know the date she left home? Was it the day of the choking session?

I'm a bit confused about that, too. Casey and Caylee were not @ the A's residence the week of June 5 thru 12 when Cindy took her vacation week around her birthday. Grandma Pleasa (and she seems like an honest person) says Cindy did not go to her MIL's because Casey promised to bring Caylee by, but didn't. So, when did they leave that time? And, did they stay gone ALL that time (before June 5 to when Cindy brought Casey home) or, did they return after the 12th and leave again the 15th? (or 16th, but I frankly don't believe George saw them the 16th.) Or, were they just @ the house the 15th so Cindy could take Caylee to see grandpa?

As for Cindy's vacation, where Grandma Pleasa says Cindy waited for Caylee to come, but Casey didn't ever bring her. Cindy and George say Caylee spent the week there--sounded like a visit from someone who does not live there---Cindy says they hung around the house and shopped @ Publix.

[lorettalockhorn]

*********************************************
Unless Casey Anthony consented to a guardianship, or a Chapter 39 action was filed, a Chapter 751 action was their only option. The standard of proof is very similar to Chapter 39. A Chapter 752 action would have written the grandparents visitation rights in stone, and MIGHT have ben easier to turn into custody under 751, but again, a 751 action, unless the parent(s) consents does mean calling the parent unfit. As the CFS workers today term it, the elder Anthonys were not "strong enough". Casey Anthony appears to have been too selfish to relinquish the hold she had over her parents: their grandchild.

And HEY! Her party friends thought she was a "good mother"; she showed up when the cameras were out.:(

It doesn't matter how selfish Casey is; if the court had ordered relative placement or temporary guardianship, she either would have complied or gone to jail.

Does The State really, really care what Casey's party friends think about her qualities as a parent? No wonder Florida's child protective services suck.

[Amy]

Does anyone know if Casey's lies and stealing started after June 16 or if she was doing these things before? I guess what I'm asking is if her life went down the toilet after Caylee's death or if she'd been up to her tricks for years? I'm just a little confused about that part of the timeline.

I know she lied about Zanny and having a job before Caylee disappeared but did she lie about other things too?

Old friends have said she lies. New friends, I think, didn't catch on until after the feathers hit the fan! Her mother says she is a pathological liar (and that doesn't just suddenly pop it's nasty head up @ age 22, I don't think.) Her uncle and grandmother and great aunt? in their emails seem to indicate her lying was a long term thing. George indicates that Casey had been stealing from her mom (and him?) for some time, using the credit cards, stealing from Caylee's piggy bank and the savings account he set up for Caylee. The stealing from Grandpa's account was prior, but possibly the first time she had stolen from anyone other than George and Cindy?

[Amy]

snip.......

The question begs why Casey had Caylee in first place. Her ex-finance, Jesse Grund, said she wanted to have baby, which I believe that’s where her narcissism personality disorder came in. Casey couldn’t go ahead marry Jesse and to live a normal life, but she used Jesse to get pregnant, probably to impress her parents and friends. She tends to think in short term, not long term. I think Casey depended on or used her parents for her living, maybe at the point they were going to kick her out of their nest, so she had Caylee. I have seen many mothers who have kids on purpose so they can still depend on their parents. But anyone with sociopath and narcissism are dangerous when they come to combine, especially when they are cornered. I don’t know if Casey’s parents ever notice Casey’s personality disorders in order to get her and Caylee some help, but it looked like they weren’t being progressive if they did. With them still standing by Casey today, it seems they still have blinders on believing Casey is innocent like Scott Peterson’s parents. They may still do love them, but how they are still nurturing their children’s abnormal behaviors isn’t doing any good. Maybe new systems to teach parents better and various ways on how to nurture their children, like improve parenting classes, stuff like that. JMO

She didn't use Jesse to get pregnant, she was 6 weeks pregnant when they got together. Jesse's family encouraged him to get paternity testing, and it is proven he is not Caylee's father.

According to Uncle Rick, Casey hid her pregnancy from Cindy and George because she was planning on giving the baby up for adoption. She never even lied to Cindy and George about her pregnancy because, according to Cindy in her FBI interview, she never ASKED. Altho now she says she suspected it.

I don't think Cindy and George believe the nanny story anymore than John Q Public or the prosecution does. IMO, they act as they do to protect Casey.

[Amy]

Well thank you! You see the book is still in the scrub stage of edit. If you have any more thoughts, please send them to me. It's a winner! I have visions of Best Seller's List! Do you have any title ideas? I have some. I might like to use, *The Invisible Nanny* "The Year of Magical Thinking" has already been used.

We should collaborate all of our posts,. Now that would be a best seller indeed! We could call it, "Steeped in Hagnog, They Still Knew she Did It"

How's about "TWO Years of Magical Thinking" since she lied about her job for 2 years? Or, pick any number of years, seems her magical thinking has gone on for a long, long time!!!!!

[Amy]

Since when do cooperative witnesses need an attorney to advise them what to tell or not tell investigators? Helllllloooooo Tell the truth. And save yourself a pretty penny.

This Luka guy sounds by all accounts to be a well-respected attorney, but I'm so jaded that any time I see someone attach themselves to this case, I'm immediately suspicious. Luka comes out with this information that Lee will be reimbursing any funds that were misused or however it was worded, like that's going to make problems go away. If Lee misused funds he should be prosecuted AND make restitution. Period.

Maybe the family attorneys should get together on their renditions of what will happen to the funds left in the account. The A's attorney Mr Conway says the left over money will be transferred to another credible missing child organization (haven't heard much from the KFN organization, are they still in the picture, and do the A's consider them a credible organization?)

[Lodi]

If that were the case, I wonder how and when they would have chosen Casey to be the fall guy?

They go on about their lives for a month. They go ballistic when they get the notice the car is in the towyard. All of a sudden, Cindy demands that Casey return home? (THAT is witnessed by Amy, TonE and on other guy.) If they knew from the start, they had to have known Caylee was in the car @ some point. (All of them agree to leave her there til they come up with a good place to put her?) George went back to work. He calls Lee to come help calm his mom. Cindy, Lee and Casey are @ the house for the report and for the police contact. Do THEY come up w/some story (which they must not have told George all the particulars right away) right then, or just started on a story and have continued in dribs and drabs as they went along?

Was it the smell in the car and George is afraid the towyard guy might think about it and call LE (he did, but ONLY after the missing report was on the tv.) AND, who would have had the final say about who to sacrifice? Why Casey and not Lee? Or George? Or Cindy? Or, why not just continue on as they had? Of course, @ some point they would have to deal w/grandma, uncle rick, the Ohio relatives about why Caylee is never around.

Your questions make a good case that it's not probable that Caylee died at home during a family scuffle but it is not impossible. There could have been a plan to cover it up but Casey didn't follow it. Maybe that is the other half of the story.

[Peachallie]

It doesn't matter how selfish Casey is; if the court had ordered relative placement or temporary guardianship, she either would have complied or gone to jail.

Does The State really, really care what Casey's party friends think about her qualities as a parent? No wonder Florida's child protective services suck.
****************************************
Sadly, all you write is true. The individuals that work in DCF and the private companies that supervise dependent children & families, are generally good people, but the set up is the worse it has been in the 22 years I've worked with it. To GET TO the relative placement*, a dependency action must be filed & successful; Casey's parents' failing was not recognizing and/or not acting upon Casey Anthony's neglect. I hope it was because they thought they could "fill in" the parenting gaps.


*Under the statutes, relative placement is the preferred when available and appropriate.

[abbra]

I was in the stores Friday, and there wasn't anything (in headline @ least) about Casey turning to God, etc. Those (Globe, I guess, am not sure what the other one was) still had the stuff about finding the body and the mag's theory of what all went down. (Can't remember all they had, as I only skim a bit for something "new".)

Hey My hubby just bought me that issue where it said Casey turned to God! I think it was in the Enquirer. If theres any substance to that report then she kind of found God a little too late don't you think? She should have thought of that before she murdered Caylee!
I believe she is actually moaning the blues hoping that some sucker will believe her and help her get off the hook because she is reformed now that she has " Found God!" Its one of her manipulations of others but it won't fly with the police and the state. Shes doomed to a life in prison, and maybe even a death sentence, she knows it and she is now scared ****eless because she can't lie her way to freedom and partying any more.

[lorettalockhorn]

Only one--and one reason he does not look like an idiot is that he WAS connected w/the Anthony's but was smart enough to get out--Mark NeJames. I haven't watched him on any of the shows, but other posters have been impressed.

I have respect for Nejame because he stepped away from the Anthonys more than for any other reason. That said, I've read that one of his partners in Tabu is John Morgan, Zenaida's attorney, and there has been a counter-suit filed against her by the Ants (or Casey, can't remember which or both), and I wonder if conflict of interest is one of the reasons that Nejame walked away.

BTW, John Morgan has been named as one of the most powerful people in Central Florida (pic #14):

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/columnists/orl-maxwell-most-powerful-11-25-2008,0,1413048.photogallery?index=orl-12johnmorgan20081223161506

[lorettalockhorn]

Hey My hubby just bought me that issue where it said Casey turned to God! I think it was in the Enquirer. If theres any substance to that report then she kind of found God a little too late don't you think? She should have thought of that before she murdered Caylee!
I believe she is actually moaning the blues hoping that some sucker will believe her and help her get off the hook because she is reformed now that she has " Found God!" Its one of her manipulations of others but it won't fly with the police and the state. Shes doomed to a life in prison, and maybe even a death sentence, she knows it and she is now scared ****eless because she can't lie her way to freedom and partying any more.

Didn't work for Karla Faye Tucker. (Not on earth, anyway.)

[browneyes106]

Your thoughts are all good. (Idealistic, but good) Common sense just doesn't seem to be the order of the day in our system. There was a time, not too long ago when the system could find a stolen car faster than they could find a stolen child. Parents of murdered children had to bend elbow's backwards to get the laws changed. We're still behind the 8 ball on it. It seems cats and dogs take better care of their offspring then some parents. The system cannot afford to babysit adults and their children. It's up to us as a society to care for each other when we see children in distress. But no one wants to get involved anymore, it seems. We depend on a limping system. We need suicide hot-lines and welfare organizations and we roll up our front steps and hide.

The Anthony's are so self absorbed they lost light of anything that resembles love. IMO Without love, we are lower than animals and dangerous. They functioned on a level that appeared normal. High functioning sociopaths, each one of them! They worked harder for appearances and stood for nothing more than the material American dream. It's no wonder Cindy was trying to choke Casey. She was about to blow their cover.

Even if we were all neigbors, we couldn't see a problem. After all, Caylee had all the toys, nice clothes, and the back yard was an expensive display of toy heaven. They all drove nice cars and lived in a pretty house. How would anyone recognize that her mother and grandmother were nothing more than liars who were too busy styling and profiling their way through life? How would we know Casey was a thief and a potential murderer?

Out of the 4 not one had a heart to see the danger Caylee was in. Not one! It's very frustrating and we are all feeling helpless and that is the crux of our angst about this case. IMO We're just damn helpless!

Good post. I think Cindy is a controlling person and I think the Anthonys seem to be materialistic. Cindy's brother said in his topix posts that back in Ohio Cindy was envious of George's father, sister and brother in law who owned auto businesses. Later George went into business with his father hoping to taking over but it didn't go well and George pushed his dad through a window. My theory is that George had no interest in the auto business and was content in his LE career but he was pushed by Cindy into working in the auto business. Also Rick said that Cindy didn't work as a nurse in Ohio. She was probably hoping for wealth and so she stayed at home thinking the auto business would bring her the wealth not to have a job. The Anthonys lost their home due to George's business failures. Also Rick said that there is a reason George didn't have a LE career in Florida. I bet it was because of the window incident. I think George and Cindy convinced themselves that moving to Florida would make them happy and feel luxiorious but in Florida their failures came up again. George works as a security guard and Cindy is forced to work as a nurse. Rick mentioned they have at least two mortgages on their current home. George got involved in the online scam which he blamed on gambling. Their kids grew up in Florida and we know the mess that is happening right now.
I noticed in a lot of pics around the house it seems like Caylee had a lot of expensive toys and her room seemed to be decorated well. I bet the Anthonys probably had Caylee spoiled with a lot of material things. Once Caylee was reported missing the Ants began scrambling to play the victims of a kidnapping nanny instead of their actual real life roles of a dysfunctional family. I do feel sorry for the Ants in a way but it's hard to feel sorry for them because they continue feeding into Casey and they are in denial of truth. I bet they used to brag to people about Casey being an event planner at Universal. If any positions like that exist at Universal I bet the people in those positions have some college education or college degrees. Casey told several people she had a certificate in event planning from Valencia Community College. I looked at the VCC website and do offer in an associates in hospital/event planning. Maybe some of her former friends believed her but I bet the Anthonys and other relatives simply believed Casey was able to land event planning job with a high school education. Also most community college and 4 year schools require people have a GED. Anthonys clearly lived a life of champagne tastes on a beer budget.

[Blue Fairy]

Okay, I see what you are saying. Her emotions are self centered. And this is a loud symptom of Sociopath/narcissistic profile. My problem is, why didn't her parents know better than to trust her with Caylee? Are they nuts? What defines normal to these people? Snuffing out the life of that beautiful child doesn't seem to be the issue with them at all. They are more concerned with walking on eggshells so Casey won't get upset! I hate it!

Okay, please tell me what her reasoning was forleading the police on the wild goose chase. What purpose did this serve?

I'm full of questions this morning. I can't make sense of what I heard on NG last night.

IIRC, Cindy was in counseling and had been advised to show her daughter the door. Think about it-last straw was the 40K credit card bill and theft from Gma and Gpa. The night of the 15th, they throw her out with Caylee "to bond" "to teach her a lesson" whatever...or after the epic fight Casey grabs Caylee and walks out-likely with protests from her parents. And in Casey's mind she is at the cross-road she has been contemplating-all her parents want is Caylee, not her. Caylee has come before her yet again-she wants to be free, so she kills her daughter but as usual she did not plan for the aftermath. She didn't get that Caylee would decompose. She thought she had more time to spin her wheels...and her parents didn't realize until they were denied access to Caylee in those 31 days that their daughter didn't love Caylee at all and likely harmed her. They knew in the back of their minds that something was up. Right away GA thought that either Casey or Caylee was in the trunk of the car when he approached it.

[Amy]

Hey My hubby just bought me that issue where it said Casey turned to God! I think it was in the Enquirer. If theres any substance to that report then she kind of found God a little too late don't you think? She should have thought of that before she murdered Caylee!
I believe she is actually moaning the blues hoping that some sucker will believe her and help her get off the hook because she is reformed now that she has " Found God!" Its one of her manipulations of others but it won't fly with the police and the state. Shes doomed to a life in prison, and maybe even a death sentence, she knows it and she is now scared ****eless because she can't lie her way to freedom and partying any more.

Didn't work for Karla Fay Tucker, either. And, she spent YEARS in prison, after finding God, where people were trying to get her @ least off DP, her now being a Christian and all.

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't discount what you've said. Certainly motherhood doesn't come naturally to some females, and they may need parenting classes, but it sure does upset me to know that. I was an 18 year old mother 40 years ago, and I knew without question what my living doll needed. The only things I had to learn were, sterilizing baby bottles and how to make the formula to put in them. I knew her language before she could communicate verbally and today that living doll is a very important person in her field and lived to make this world a better place. I credit her alone, and thanked her often for surviving a teen age mother.

I was singing rockabye baby when my friends were getting dressed to go to their proms. My daughter did not follow my footsteps, she waited until she was well educated, secure and 35 years old, before she gave us another living doll. Why do today's young women need to learn how to mother? It's pitiful.

As for Cindy; she is one of those who should have never given birth. SHe is culpable and she is the hand that rocked that cradle.

IMO

Will you take care of me the next time I have a tummy ache? I agree, some parents just don't have the natural instincts that it takes to be a decent parent, let alone a good one. Got my training early when my baby brother was born; he got to come home from the hospital, but my mother didn't. We all pitched in, but to me, he was mine, MINE, all MINE! I took him with me everywhere in his little stroller. Band practice, the library, youth group, etc. (I will admit, he helped my popularity. My GFs were so curious.) Something within me made me want to care for him. I'd say that Casey would have been better off raised by wolves, but that would be an insult to wolves.

Seriously, when did this family get so off course? Does anyone doubt Cindy's line about the counselor having advised her to try to get custody of Caylee? Am I just jaded because the adult Ants have asked for immunity and am considering for the time being that anything and everything out of their mouths was a Flie?

[javahog]

Hey My hubby just bought me that issue where it said Casey turned to God! I think it was in the Enquirer. If theres any substance to that report then she kind of found God a little too late don't you think? She should have thought of that before she murdered Caylee!
I believe she is actually moaning the blues hoping that some sucker will believe her and help her get off the hook because she is reformed now that she has " Found God!" Its one of her manipulations of others but it won't fly with the police and the state. Shes doomed to a life in prison, and maybe even a death sentence, she knows it and she is now scared ****eless because she can't lie her way to freedom and partying any more.

If she picked up a Bible, its probably because she thinks its about her. To paraphrase a joke I heard, when lightning flashes in the sky, Casey thinks God's taking a picture of her...

imo, of course...

[javahog]

IIRC, Cindy was in counseling and had been advised to show her daughter the door. Think about it-last straw was the 40K credit card bill and theft from Gma and Gpa. The night of the 15th, they throw her out with Caylee "to bond" "to teach her a lesson" whatever...or after the epic fight Casey grabs Caylee and walks out-likely with protests from her parents. And in Casey's mind she is at the cross-road she has been contemplating-all her parents want is Caylee, not her. Caylee has come before her yet again-she wants to be free, so she kills her daughter but as usual she did not plan for the aftermath. She didn't get that Caylee would decompose. She thought she had more time to spin her wheels...and her parents didn't realize until they were denied access to Caylee in those 31 days that their daughter didn't love Caylee at all and likely harmed her. They knew in the back of their minds that something was up. Right away GA thought that either Casey or Caylee was in the trunk of the car when he approached it.

I think, for my opinion, that you are close in your post. To take it further, I suspect that George well knew exactly what was up when he smelled that car, but Cindy couldn't handle it. If she "finally" stood up to Casey and it resulted in her leaving with Caylee, then her assertiveness was what got Caylee killed. I don't think Casey had a "break", I think Cindy has because she can't handle her part in what happened-she had to "believe" Casey against all logic, because the alternative is that she (in a way) got Caylee killed. George I think is just going along with Cindy to keep her together. But all bets are off, now. No living along DaNile once the body is found...If I am right, they will turn on Casey like ravening wolves. If I'm not, they will support her still. Time will tell.

Most parents wouldn't think that their lying thieving offspring could be devoid of natural love for their on child. As the Bible says (since Casey is turing to it:read:), do even the evil give their children snakes when they ask for bread? Its unnatural.

imo, of course...

[Amy]

Will you take care of me the next time I have a tummy ache? I agree, some parents just don't have the natural instincts that it takes to be a decent parent, let alone a good one. Got my training early when my baby brother was born; he got to come home from the hospital, but my mother didn't. We all pitched in, but to me, he was mine, MINE, all MINE! I took him with me everywhere in his little stroller. Band practice, the library, youth group, etc. (I will admit, he helped my popularity. My GFs were so curious.) Something within me made me want to care for him. I'd say that Casey would have been better off raised by wolves, but that would be an insult to wolves.

Seriously, when did this family get so off course? Does anyone doubt Cindy's line about the counselor having advised her to try to get custody of Caylee? Am I just jaded because the adult Ants have asked for immunity and am considering for the time being that anything and everything out of their mouths was a Flie?

I don't know about the therapist. She also said she had obtained legal counsel about Caylee's future--I can't remember, making sure that biodad couldn't take Caylee away? Whatever, she gave the lawyer's name, and that lawyer had no file pertaining to her claims. So, who knows?

I have heard various and sundry people say to their own relatives or friends that they should take custody of grandchildren when parents seem to be irresponsible. Haven't really seen people do that, but I do know they do. Perhaps Cindy was thinking she really ought to pursue it, and just said that a therapist told her. Or, maybe she DID go to a therapist.

[Amy]

Hey My hubby just bought me that issue where it said Casey turned to God! I think it was in the Enquirer. If theres any substance to that report then she kind of found God a little too late don't you think? She should have thought of that before she murdered Caylee!
I believe she is actually moaning the blues hoping that some sucker will believe her and help her get off the hook because she is reformed now that she has " Found God!" Its one of her manipulations of others but it won't fly with the police and the state. Shes doomed to a life in prison, and maybe even a death sentence, she knows it and she is now scared ****eless because she can't lie her way to freedom and partying any more.

So, what did the article actually say? I was in a short line @ the grocery store and only saw the headline--well, it wasn't the main thing on the page, but up in the right hand corner. What it said was Casey confesses all to minister. So, did she "find God" in the form of the minister and confess to him? Or, did she confess to the minister and then find God? COME ON!!!! Curious minds want to know!!!!!

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't know about the therapist. She also said she had obtained legal counsel about Caylee's future--I can't remember, making sure that biodad couldn't take Caylee away? Whatever, she gave the lawyer's name, and that lawyer had no file pertaining to her claims. So, who knows?

I have heard various and sundry people say to their own relatives or friends that they should take custody of grandchildren when parents seem to be irresponsible. Haven't really seen people do that, but I do know they do. Perhaps Cindy was thinking she really ought to pursue it, and just said that a therapist told her. Or, maybe she DID go to a therapist.

Whatever. Cindy was too busy aiding, abetting and enabling a baby killer. And she's worried about the biodad? G&C should have foudn out who the guy was and helped him be a part of Caylee's life. She might now have a life if they had.

So, what did the article actually say? I was in a short line @ the grocery store and only saw the headline--well, it wasn't the main thing on the page, but up in the right hand corner. What it said was Casey confesses all to minister. So, did she "find God" in the form of the minister and confess to him? Or, did she confess to the minister and then find God? COME ON!!!! Curious minds want to know!!!!!

LMFAO Enquiring minds want to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Told my sister today that I was going to buy a NE for the first time evah. She thinks I'm nuts. But I told her, hey, it's not all about quadruplet monkey psycho-surgery anymore.)

[deputydi]

So, what did the article actually say? I was in a short line @ the grocery store and only saw the headline--well, it wasn't the main thing on the page, but up in the right hand corner. What it said was Casey confesses all to minister. So, did she "find God" in the form of the minister and confess to him? Or, did she confess to the minister and then find God? COME ON!!!! Curious minds want to know!!!!!
That headline is misleading. Casey didn't confess to anything except that she has found God. Even if she did talk about what really happened, we'd never hear it from him.

[lorettalockhorn]

That headline is misleading. Casey didn't confess to anything except that she has found God. Even if she did talk about what really happened, we'd never hear it from him.

I read on another site that he (Stutzman? Sorry, cannot remember his name), talked to The Enquirer. But he would be risking losing his pulpit or whatever if he ever gave out privileged information to the press or anyone else. Including the courts or investigators.

[javahog]

I don’t think there are any systems that can do that nowadays, perhaps in future. Maybe having some new systems that can prevent parents from having kids by going through some evaluations before they go ahead procreating to determine if parents are fit enough to have and raise kids. *snip*

*snip* So I think there should be new systems to focus on about giving more and better options for parents to get aid that they & their kids can be comfort with. It would probably be a long term, but may be worth it like babysitters that state can pay for parents who cannot afford one. State’s babysitter could note in their log for example if Casey frequently drops Caylee off at babysitter so she can go party all times, then state could put Casey under red but in subtle way. *snip*

I just have to say it, eugenics is not the answer to anything. Where would a State draw the line? How would they test? What would they do if someone became "illegally" pregnant? This person is not mentally sound enough to procreate. That person isn't smart enough to procreate. Oh, we have enough Blacks/Whites/Hispanics/Tongans, they can't get a procreation license until 2013... darn slippery slope, imo.

And as for the State babysitters for the poor you suggest...so people who cannot afford babysitters but have committed no crime would be monitored by spy babysitters? While the well-to-do could go on about their business?:confused:

No offense, but I don't want to live like this. Wars were fought over stuff like this in the last century.

I like your idea about parenting classes, though. I think that it would be a good thing, especially with people living so far from their families these days, so they have no one who can give them experienced advice in some cases.

[javahog]

That headline is misleading. Casey didn't confess to anything except that she has found God. Even if she did talk about what really happened, we'd never hear it from him.

She found God? Was God lost, too? Did Casey think He might be in Club Fusian, too? I really have no patience for this. But if she does find God, at least Caylee will have the chance to ask "why?".

imo

[deputydi]

I read on another site that he (Stutzman? Sorry, cannot remember his name), talked to The Enquirer. But he would be risking losing his pulpit or whatever if he ever gave out privileged information to the press or anyone else. Including the courts or investigators.
That's true. He did give an interview to the Enquirer, but it didn't say anything. Casey is reading the bible and that's what they discuss.

[lorettalockhorn]

I just have to say it, eugenics is not the answer to anything. Where would a State draw the line? How would they test? What would they do if someone became "illegally" pregnant? This person is not mentally sound enough to procreate. That person isn't smart enough to procreate. Oh, we have enough Blacks/Whites/Hispanics/Tongans, they can't get a procreation license until 2013... darn slippery slope, imo.

And as for the State babysitters for the poor you suggest...so people who cannot afford babysitters but have committed no crime would be monitored by spy babysitters? While the well-to-do could go on about their business?:confused:

No offense, but I don't want to live like this. Wars were fought over stuff like this in the last century.

I like your idea about parenting classes, though. I think that it would be a good thing, especially with people living so far from their families these days, so they have no one who can give them experienced advice in some cases.

Great post! Even though I'm on the record for involuntary sterilization in some instances, WTF is going to make that decision? The legislature that cuts funds to the groups that are mandated to insure child protection?? LMAO at State babysitter logs. Won't go into a rant about licensing, but it's ridic to assume that fidiots who receive funding for daycare should automatically have any say in what goes into a log. Where can they find the time?

As for "illegal pregnancies"; take a long hard look at the Chinese system. They are not content to monitor from afar, or after the fact; their system is sexist, minimally. The b@st@rds aren't content just to send "grannies" into the communities to preach and insure that birth control is used, they strongarm women into abortion and throwing away female children.

*Please God, don't let my country be like that*

[deputydi]

I just have to say it, eugenics is not the answer to anything. Where would a State draw the line? How would they test? What would they do if someone became "illegally" pregnant? This person is not mentally sound enough to procreate. That person isn't smart enough to procreate. Oh, we have enough Blacks/Whites/Hispanics/Tongans, they can't get a procreation license until 2013... darn slippery slope, imo.

And as for the State babysitters for the poor you suggest...so people who cannot afford babysitters but have committed no crime would be monitored by spy babysitters? While the well-to-do could go on about their business?:confused:

No offense, but I don't want to live like this. Wars were fought over stuff like this in the last century.

I like your idea about parenting classes, though. I think that it would be a good thing, especially with people living so far from their families these days, so they have no one who can give them experienced advice in some cases.
We also have something called a Constitution AND A BILL OF RIGHTS.

[sharlock]

I was in the stores Friday, and there wasn't anything (in headline @ least) about Casey turning to God, etc. Those (Globe, I guess, am not sure what the other one was) still had the stuff about finding the body and the mag's theory of what all went down. (Can't remember all they had, as I only skim a bit for something "new".)

Both Jesse and Cindy spoke of Casey and religion. Jesse implies that she got religious to please him and his family. Her Mum sort of backs that up saying that the rest of the family were not practising in that they did not go to church but that Casey had started to go to church while with Jesse and that she often read the bible. Also when Casey was talking to C@G in jail she said that she did have a bible to read even though she wasn't allowed to use her own copy that George had tried to give to her. IMO she turned to religion when it was necessary to be liked by the Grundes, with Jesse's Dad being a preacher and all, and that she will continue to read the bible and so forth while in jail because it is in her best interest to do so. She can't really be said to have found religion though because she had always claimed to be religious since Jessie (except when around her new boyfriend and friends, around them Casey felt she needed to be more of the party girl and she would not have spoken religion around them because their was no need to-(she acts the way she thinks will best get her what she wants from the people she is around). Some profilers have speculated that if carefully manipulated Casey might have been able to be coerced into confessing to a preist but I don't beleive that myself. The mere fact that she chose her lawyer over a preist the day her daughter's body was id'd shows exactly where her priorities lay and the only way she would confess to a preist is if she actually thought she had no chance in defending herself or getting others to beleive her lies and concluded that she would benefit from confessing to a preist by perhaps improving her image and getting sympathy or somehting. In other words it would have to suit her and it would have to benefit her imo.

[Brainstorm]

She found God? Was God lost, too? Did Casey think He might be in Club Fusian, too? I really have no patience for this. But if she does find God, at least Caylee will have the chance to ask "why?".

imo

I dont believe for a second she's found God OR she'd be telling the truth,right now. IF she's studying,TRYING to find God,then she should know, SHE HAS GOT TO SPILL HER GUTS !!!!
imo

[sharlock]

If she picked up a Bible, its probably because she thinks its about her. To paraphrase a joke I heard, when lightning flashes in the sky, Casey thinks God's taking a picture of her...

imo, of course...
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/icons/lol.gif Now that's funny!

[lorettalockhorn]

Both Jesse and Cindy spoke of Casey and religion. Jesse implies that she got religious to please him and his family. Her Mum sort of backs that up saying that the rest of the family were not practising in that they did not go to church but that Casey had started to go to church while with Jesse and that she often read the bible. Also when Casey was talking to C@G in jail she said that she did have a bible to read even though she wasn't allowed to use her own copy that George had tried to give to her. IMO she turned to religion when it was necessary to be liked by the Grundes, with Jesse's Dad being a preacher and all, and that she will continue to read the bible and so forth while in jail because it is in her best interest to do so. She can't really be said to have found religion though because she had always claimed to be religious since Jessie (except when around her new boyfriend and friends, around them Casey felt she needed to be more of the party girl and she would not have spoken religion around them because their was no need to-(she acts the way she thinks will best get her what she wants from the people she is around). Some profilers have speculated that if carefully manipulated Casey might have been able to be coerced into confessing to a preist but I don't beleive that myself. The mere fact that she chose her lawyer over a preist the day her daughter's body was id'd shows exactly where her priorities lay and the only way she would confess to a preist is if she actually thought she had no chance in defending herself or getting others to beleive her lies and concluded that she would benefit from confessing to a preist by perhaps improving her image and getting sympathy or somehting. In other words it would have to suit her and it would have to benefit her imo.

Well, if Casey has a history of using religion as a crutch from time to time as it benefits her, we cannnot be expected to believe that this rumored conversion means Jack Squat. As for her convos with the preacher man they don't mean squat either; they are privileged and will never come to light, whether they are confessional or defensive, or false, or beneficial, or even true.

[Amy]

I just have to say it, eugenics is not the answer to anything. Where would a State draw the line? How would they test? What would they do if someone became "illegally" pregnant? This person is not mentally sound enough to procreate. That person isn't smart enough to procreate. Oh, we have enough Blacks/Whites/Hispanics/Tongans, they can't get a procreation license until 2013... darn slippery slope, imo.

And as for the State babysitters for the poor you suggest...so people who cannot afford babysitters but have committed no crime would be monitored by spy babysitters? While the well-to-do could go on about their business?:confused:

No offense, but I don't want to live like this. Wars were fought over stuff like this in the last century.

I like your idea about parenting classes, though. I think that it would be a good thing, especially with people living so far from their families these days, so they have no one who can give them experienced advice in some cases.

I agree. The only thing that should be mandated is parenting classes. We already have too much government intervention in our lives as it is. We have girls/women who seem to be dumber than boxes of rocks, and shake our heads, wondering how these babies will survive? But, they do. I see these kids @ school, healthy looking, no hospitalization for broken bones, no bruises, happy, no reports from neighbors, no SRS involvement. Women who, from first appearances, probably would have been on the no kid list.


I agree. The only thing that should be mandated is parenting classes. We already have too much government intervention in our lives as it is. We have girls/women who seem to be dumber than boxes of rocks, and shake our heads, wondering how these babies will survive? But, they do. I see these kids @ school, healthy looking, no hospitalization for broken bones, no bruises, happy, no reports from neighbors, no SRS involvement. Women who, from first appearances, probably would have been on the no kid list.

And, the CPS/SRS thing. Seems there are kids removed from homes that should not be, and kids either left in or returned to homes they should not be.

I remember when we first started testing for drugs in newborns. The baby in question was on Medicaid. IIRC, this mom had already had a couple of kids removed from the home. The hospital social worker told the manager that SRS had said, IF Medicaid was going to pay for the testing, to do it. If not, do not do the test. I asked, so, if Medicaid covers this test, it is important for SRS to have the results to remove this baby, but if SRS has to cover the test, this baby's life is just....not so important? Now, I just tho't this was a darn sad state of affairs.

[lighthousedazy]

Night all! I hope I dont' dream of Cindy's hard cold face tonight. There is something about that woman that tells me Caylee paid for her stupidity and selfishness. I'd rather have a nightmare about Lucifer himself than that wretched foolish woman.

I'm hagnogged out.

:seeya:Goodnight Danagher. I'm probably hagnogged out too.. What I saw in those jailhouse tapes of C & G and caysee, was shock and awe in Cindy's eyes. She had the look of a mother that was trying to believe and support a daughter (natural reaction) and also a look that said "I know you are lying and you killed my beautiful granddaughter you devil and you will be doomed to hell. That was the shocking look I saw in Cindy. :flamemad: jmo

[lorettalockhorn]

Sure darlin, I'll take care of your when you have a tummy ache. :)

Thank you! I'd say that you're a better mother/nurse than Leroy, but that would be an insult to, well, everyone!

IF he is a witness to the confession of a mother who killed her daughter and he doesn't give her up, he'll lose more than his soap box, he'll lose his right to be at peace with God and he can read the bible all day every day behind bars for obstruction of justice.

But I'll be a monkey's uncle if she told him he truth. She doesn't know the meaning of that word.

The opposite. Any confession is privileged, and cannot be exposed.

By the Act of Congress of April 30, 1790, it was provided, that the benefit of clergy shall not be used or allowed, upon conviction of any crime, for which, by any statute of the United States, the punishment is, or shall be declared to be, death.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b093.htm

Okay, that's way harsh and this citation is (probably/hopefully) anachronistic, but Mr. Stutzman cannot be compelled to reveal anything about his visitation with Casey.

[lighthousedazy]

The opposite. Any confession is privileged, and cannot be exposed.

By the Act of Congress of April 30, 1790, it was provided, that the benefit of clergy shall not be used or allowed, upon conviction of any crime, for which, by any statute of the United States, the punishment is, or shall be declared to be, death.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b093.htm

Okay, that's way harsh and this citation is (probably/hopefully) anachronistic, but Mr. Stutzman cannot be compelled to reveal anything about his visitation with Casey.I think that law applies to psychiatrists too. I do wish it could be changed in cases of murder. :rose:

[lorettalockhorn]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Once again you guys have been typing your little fingers to the bone! I have much to catch up on, but thought I'd send these book titles on....How about:

'Me, Myself, The Nanny, and I'


Love this one especially! It's got all the elements of what's important to Casey: Casey

[lorettalockhorn]

I think that law applies to psychiatrists too. I do wish it could be changed in cases of murder. :rose:

Should apply to any physician or clergyman, and has probably been reworded since first written. What is scary is the way that it was worded in 1790:

By the Act of Congress of April 30, 1790, it was provided, that the benefit of clergy shall not be used or allowed, upon conviction of any crime, for which, by any statute of the United States, the punishment is, or shall be declared to be, death.

Or I may be hagnog.9 and misunderstanding.

[One2Snoop]

Thank you! I'd say that you're a better mother/nurse than Leroy, but that would be an insult to, well, everyone!



The opposite. Any confession is privileged, and cannot be exposed.

By the Act of Congress of April 30, 1790, it was provided, that the benefit of clergy shall not be used or allowed, upon conviction of any crime, for which, by any statute of the United States, the punishment is, or shall be declared to be, death.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/b093.htm

Okay, that's way harsh and this citation is (probably/hopefully) anachronistic, but Mr. Stutzman cannot be compelled to reveal anything about his visitation with Casey.

I think that law applies to psychiatrists too. I do wish it could be changed in cases of murder. :rose:

I'd totally forgotten about that law - but I'd have to ask how could anyone with a concious (priest, pastor or psychiatrist and even an attorney) harbor such a secret - I've seen plenty who've been eaten alive by the things they know. From my own observations, most become self-destructive in their lives somehow because they can't take the pressure of hiding the truth.

JMO

[lorettalockhorn]

I'd totally forgotten about that law - but I'd have to ask how could anyone with a concious (priest, pastor or psychiatrist and even an attorney) harbor such a secret - I've seen plenty who've been eaten alive by the things they know. From my own observations, most become self-destructive in their lives somehow because they can't take the pressure of hiding the truth.

JMO

Hey! Long time no! :seeya:

I support defense attorneys pretty much regardless of clientele; I could be (falsely or erroneously) charged someday doncha know?! And would want the best that money or green stamps or aluminum cans could buy. But if I was actually an attorney, there would be things that I wouldn't want to know; there would be questions that I wouldn't ask every client. (And would probably wish to God some things weren't voluntarily confessed.)

[One2Snoop]

Hey! Long time no! :seeya:

I support defense attorneys pretty much regardless of clientele; I could be (falsely or erroneously) charged someday doncha know?! And would want the best that money or green stamps or aluminum cans could buy. But if I was actually an attorney, there would be things that I wouldn't want to know; there would be questions that I wouldn't ask every client. (And would probably wish to God some things weren't voluntarily confessed.)

Oh I hear ya! But the ones I've known who said all of the above, knew in their hearts and knew from evidence their client was guilty. I personally know a judge and 3 attorneys who've chosen different avenues because they couldn't take the dishonesty/ignorance they had to endure in that profession. I personally know of a psychiatrist who would tell bald faced lies for the money - I was the business manager for over 100 psychiatrists/psychologists/Social Workers etc... He made me sick to my stomach. I was eventually confronted by the administration of the HMO we worked for and I wouldn't lie or cover for him - in fact I oftened wondered why the heck it took so long for them to ask for my deposition.

I won't name names/cases or locations but just posting it as an example. I seriously can't help but wonder how Baez sleeps at night.

BTW - The psychiatrist was eventually fired - long after I left and I thought it took them far to long to get it but when I was eventually given the news I did one of those "YES" jestures LOL.

Night all... :seeya:

[One2Snoop]

speaking of jestures I'd like to throw a middle finger jesture Lodi's way -

Message to Lodi -

Read the case from the beginning and for gawds sakes stop posting such stupid A $ $ scenarios. I can't help but wonder when you're going to insert yourself in this case and tell how you cut the body up. :eek: :no:

I won't post the rest of the gross details here but for those of you who don't know Lodi and his 50 nics and counting, :flamemad: shoot me a pm and I'll fill you in. :seeya:

[shadydaisy]

When my mother was alive, and she saw all her daughters gossiping at the table, she'd say, "Ah, I see you are all praying again. Light the candle!" If she were here today to read these boards, she'd say it again. :)

Soooo, I'll light the candle and pray.

The Anthony's have obviously been forced to stay away from media. I get the feeling she's chompin at the bit. My question is, why didn't they know that their public display of lies and defensive and offensive behaviors would get them this public reaction? How stupid can they possibly be?

Oh Danagher you made my eyes well up. My Irish grandmother recently passed away and that was one of her favorite sayings if she caught us gossiping.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of the Anthony's at this point. IDK if they were told to stay away from the media OR have they faced the truth and now cannot face the world? Could they possibly not be visiting Casey because they can't bear to look at her? I don't believe they are staying away due to being recorded - who cares if you are just having a visit and saying hello? If I believed my child was innocent, I would just want to visit and look at them, to see for myself that they were ok. IDK if I could look at my child if they murdered my grandchild.

Does anyone think we will ever find out who the father is? At the trial? Will we at least find out who could not be the father - now that DNA has been taken from several of the father contenders?

[Amy]

I did not know that and imo it shouldn't be. It sounds like some of the old New England laws still on the books that no one obeys. Oral sex is still punishable by law too.

I don't think the pastor or whatever spiritual leader who breaks confidentiality of his congregant should face death, that's for sure!!!!

I wonder how many people confess their crimes that are punishable by law (and especially by LWOP or DP) actually confess to their pastor? Of course, we'll never know, it being confidential and all. I wonder how many pastors DO pass along information? If it isn't a high profile case, we never know that, either.

Oh, BTW, don't you remember a former president informing us that "oral sex" isn't "sex" @ all? Yep, guess maybe some of the "laws" need to be updated, not only what would be legal and all, but also, what IS sex and what isnt'. (Kind of, it depends on what "is" is!!! lol.

[lorettalockhorn]

From Nancy Grace, 12/17/08:

...The pastor has already made statements to the press, none of them divulging what the tot mom said behind bars. But I`m telling you, Mickey Sherman, there`s no way she cracked and told the preacher anything.

MICKEY SHERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, we should — we`re not going to know it and we`re not supposed to know it. There`s a priest-penitent privilege. When you talk to a priest or a pastor, it`s not supposed to be divulged to anybody, authorities or anyone else. That`s the obligation of the pastor.

NANCY GRACE: Renee?

SHERMAN: And if he does it…

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right. It is the pastor`s obligation, but the pastor cannot waive that. The only person that can waive that privilege is the defendant, Nancy...


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0812/17/ng.01.html

[Amy]

Oh Danagher you made my eyes well up. My Irish grandmother recently passed away and that was one of her favorite sayings if she caught us gossiping.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of the Anthony's at this point. IDK if they were told to stay away from the media OR have they faced the truth and now cannot face the world? Could they possibly not be visiting Casey because they can't bear to look at her? I don't believe they are staying away due to being recorded - who cares if you are just having a visit and saying hello? If I believed my child was innocent, I would just want to visit and look at them, to see for myself that they were ok. IDK if I could look at my child if they murdered my grandchild.

Does anyone think we will ever find out who the father is? At the trial? Will we at least find out who could not be the father - now that DNA has been taken from several of the father contenders?

OR, if Casey is too ashamed to look @ THEM, because according to jailer spokesperson, CASEY is not seeing anyone besides Baez and occasionally the minister.

I don't think we will find out anything more about the biodad unless it becomes pertinent to the murder, and, IMO it most likely isn't. Casey knows (possibly) and if she does, it will most likely remain her secret forever.

[lorettalockhorn]

I don't think the pastor or whatever spiritual leader who breaks confidentiality of his congregant should face death, that's for sure!!!!

I wonder how many people confess their crimes that are punishable by law (and especially by LWOP or DP) actually confess to their pastor? Of course, we'll never know, it being confidential and all. I wonder how many pastors DO pass along information? If it isn't a high profile case, we never know that, either.

Oh, BTW, don't you remember a former president informing us that "oral sex" isn't "sex" @ all? Yep, guess maybe some of the "laws" need to be updated, not only what would be legal and all, but also, what IS sex and what isnt'. (Kind of, it depends on what "is" is!!! lol.

Be neither, but any violator should be forced from the pulpit, IMO. Knowing that that privilege exists is integral to seeking pastoral care. It's every bit as important as knowing that your medical records and discussions with your physician are private, for instance.

[Peachallie]

Be neither, but any violator should be forced from the pulpit, IMO. Knowing that that privilege exists is integral to seeking pastoral care. It's every bit as important as knowing that your medical records and discussions with your physician are private, for instance.
*************************************
Thank you Lockhorn. Here is Florida law on the matter. I hope the link works:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0090/SEC505.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0090->Section%20505#0090.505


*Of course I also think a President telling the nation his personal enemy has weapons POISED TO STRIKE is much worse than a lie about an affair, particularly when thousands of deaths are caused thereby.

[Gatordog]

Yes Gator, that's all true and yet as I look at the big picture there is still something missing. I hope the prosecution team gets into her childhood because I want to see the makings of this killer come into the canvas or I might never trust another human being in my life again. There had to be clues to the possibility of this crime way before it happened. I am sure the Anthony's knew she was capable of this. Then I'll want to know why they were dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of her head problems. (If sociopath disorder has a cause besides physiological or hard wiring at birth.)

Hi Danagher, the way I see it that when she was young and told a lie, she was never corrected. To Cindy, they are just "mistruths". The Liar was probably never corrected, punished or forced to make amends for her lying. George knew it was wrong but she was daddy's little girl and he looked the other way. To Cindy, it was probably considered normal behavior. Then she turned 20 and it got worse and by then it was too late to change the behavior and they were to confont her for fear of losing Caylee despite the advice of the psychologist.

Gator

[lorettalockhorn]

*************************************
Thank you Lockhorn. Here is Florida law on the matter. I hope the link works:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0090/SEC505.HTM&Title=->2006->Ch0090->Section%20505#0090.505


*Of course I also think a President telling the nation his personal enemy has weapons POISED TO STRIKE is much worse than a lie about an affair, particularly when thousands of deaths are caused thereby.

Thanks Peach!

...90.505 Privilege with respect to communications to clergy.--

(1) For the purposes of this section:

(a) A "member of the clergy" is a priest, rabbi, practitioner of Christian Science, or minister of any religious organization or denomination usually referred to as a church, or an individual reasonably believed so to be by the person consulting him or her.

(b) A communication between a member of the clergy and a person is "confidential" if made privately for the purpose of seeking spiritual counsel and advice from the member of the clergy in the usual course of his or her practice or discipline and not intended for further disclosure except to other persons present in furtherance of the communication.

(2) A person has a privilege to refuse to disclose, and to prevent another from disclosing, a confidential communication by the person to a member of the clergy in his or her capacity as spiritual adviser.

(3) The privilege may be claimed by:

(a) The person.

(b) The guardian or conservator of a person.

(c) The personal representative of a deceased person.

(d) The member of the clergy, on behalf of the person. The member of the clergy's authority to do so is presumed in the absence of evidence to the contrary...

Two thoughts/rants: If Casey has found God, or accepted God into her life (according to the preacher), it's because she has given him permission to give that information to the media. :rolleyes:

& with regard to Caylee's father being known, it's likely that we don't need to know as part of the case, but he does on general principle. Much ado has been made of the fact that Caylee was a mature child and would want to share her memorial toys with children who would have otherwise gone without (I've got a whole separate rant about that business). Well, she sure as hell didn't learn that selflessness from G&C and her mother (and I use the term as loosely as her morals). The Anthonys not only deprived Caylee of knowing her father and her paternal relatives and denied her having them as part of her life, but they are now also divesting them of the right to mourn her death and short life.

[FDInLaw]

Probably right Gator. Normal parents do not look the other way when a child lies. We know that. But in the Anthony family (I've said this before) they were exercising noise control. I've known parents who were afraid of their kids who reacted violently or hysterical when their mother and father didn't give them their own way.

I have a niece who has been my case study for years. She gave in every time her little girl threw a fit. I've witnessed her daughter threaten to destroy everything in the house and would scream until she passed out when she was disagreed with or told the word "NO" Today that little girl is in her 20's and it's clear to me that she is mentally "not right" and she tells my niece what's going down on a daily basis. No plan of any kind, can be put into action without the consent of her daughter no matter what the plan is. Of course my niece is a peace keeper but we all know Cindy is a control freak, how ever much she allowed in the past, and when she refused to accept Casey's stealing, she set the death of Caylee in motion.

Both of these mothers were consistently intimidated by children who grew up running the show. I sincerely believe both of these young ladies have underlying issues that their mother's feel very guilty about or their daughter's hold some family secret that became their burden. But for emotional blackmail, why else would they be afraid of their own offspring? I see how their passive aggressive motives speak as clear as a bell rings.The irony, is that every dirty little family secret will come out during trial. . . what a tragic mess.



JMHO

[jas72]

Apologies if this has been a topic of discussion before now, but don't you think that if Casey knew who Caylee's father was, she would have tapped him for child support? Wouldn't her parents have wondered who Caylee's father was and wonder why he wasn't paying child support as well? Maybe the fact that as far as I know no child support was ever mentioned, then perhaps Caylee's father is unknown to even Casey, or he could have really been killed in an automobile accident.
It just seems that Casey's not having a job for a while and stealing from her friend certainly showed that she was desperate to get hold of money by whatever means possible, and child support would have been at least a legitimate means of doing so.

[lorettalockhorn]

Apologies if this has been a topic of discussion before now, but don't you think that if Casey knew who Caylee's father was, she would have tapped him for child support? Wouldn't her parents have wondered who Caylee's father was and wonder why he wasn't paying child support as well? Maybe the fact that as far as I know no child support was ever mentioned, then perhaps Caylee's father is unknown to even Casey, or he could have really been killed in an automobile accident.
It just seems that Casey's not having a job for a while and stealing from her friend certainly showed that she was desperate to get hold of money by whatever means possible, and child support would have been at least a legitimate means of doing so.

I don't think these self-absorbed, self-centered, self-involved, self-seeking, self-serving people wanted to share Caylee with anyone. Not with a baby daddy, not with inlaws, no one. It was worth it to forgo what little support money Caylee would have been eligible for to keep her to themselves.

[jas72]

I don't think these self-absorbed, self-centered, self-involved, self-seeking, self-serving people wanted to share Caylee with anyone. Not with a baby daddy, not with inlaws, no one. It was worth it to forgo what little support money Caylee would have been eligible for to keep her to themselves.

You're probably correct. Cindy was probably no longer working outside the home and could spend all day with Caylee. Money was probably not an issue with George & Cindy and not seeking any money from the father ensured that he wouldn't be around to interfere.

[javahog]

Apologies if this has been a topic of discussion before now, but don't you think that if Casey knew who Caylee's father was, she would have tapped him for child support? Wouldn't her parents have wondered who Caylee's father was and wonder why he wasn't paying child support as well? Maybe the fact that as far as I know no child support was ever mentioned, then perhaps Caylee's father is unknown to even Casey, or he could have really been killed in an automobile accident.
It just seems that Casey's not having a job for a while and stealing from her friend certainly showed that she was desperate to get hold of money by whatever means possible, and child support would have been at least a legitimate means of doing so.

Yeah, I brought this up, and others updated me, and why KC wouldn't try to get the social security death benies for Caylee (well, for herself, really, you know?). But the prevailing theory is Casey has no idea...The guy who died in a car accident? imo, Caylee looked nothing like him. Another guy, initials JPC, is a total ringer for Caylee and a roommate of one of Casey's friends, but he comes from money, so why wouldn't she hit him up if its him? Weird. She might just not know, or the Anthony's didn't pursue it because they feared sharing or losing Caylee?

[javahog]

I don't think these self-absorbed, self-centered, self-involved, self-seeking, self-serving people wanted to share Caylee with anyone. Not with a baby daddy, not with inlaws, no one. It was worth it to forgo what little support money Caylee would have been eligible for to keep her to themselves.

But if not Cindy and George, Casey would theoretically go for the gold, don't you think? It would be easier than stealing, and then she really would have a babysitter...

And unemployed Casey could get welfare, right? But never applied. Don't most states require id'ing and hitting up the dad before going on the dole? Its weird. She avoided sources of free money that would require the dad be identified. Maybe it WAS Lee, lol!

[javahog]

Yep! And you say it so much shorter and sweeter than I do. Cindy refused to allow anyone to make decisions about her pretend daughter Caylee.

I gotta say, if Casey were my daughter, I would want to start over and trade up, too. She had a tabula rasa with Caylee.

[lighthousedazy]

Yeah, I brought this up, and why KC wouldn't try to get the social security death benies for Caylee (well, for herself, really, you know?). But the prevailing theory is Casey has no idea...The guy who died in a car accident? imo, Caylee looked nothing like him. Another guy, initials JPC, is a total ringer for Caylee and a roommate of one of Casey's friends, but he comes from money, so why wouldn't she hit him up if its him? Weird. She might just not know, or the Anthony's didn't pursue it because they feared sharing or losing Caylee?I believe caysee doesn't know who the father is. I agree that Caylee was the spitting image of JPC. JMO

[javahog]

I never saw a pic of JPC.. anyone? Thanks.

Sent you a pm...(I'm not sure if its allowed to post a conjecture link...)

[lorettalockhorn]

I never saw a pic of JPC.. anyone? Thanks.


http://i41.tinypic.com/555ljn.jpg

[javahog]

http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s336/starshineinca/caylee.jpg

Yeah, that's the one. Like clones.

[FDInLaw]

Oh my. . . they do look a lot alike!

[lorettalockhorn]

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Casey Anthony's lawyer Jose Baez has filed a new motion Monday.

He is afraid detectives are trying to get privileged information about the case from a private detective who used to work for his defense team, so he's asking a judge to intervene.

He is asking the judge to appoint a "special master" to oversee any questioning of the private investigator by law enforcement.

The private eye is a familiar face to insiders. He's Dominic Casey, who early on worked for Baez. Then in October, George and Cindy Anthony hired him to follow up on live sightings of Caylee Anthony.

Baez said law enforcement is now showing an interest in questioning Casey Anthony* and he wants to make sure they don't get any privileged information he may have learned while working for Baez...

http://www.wesh.com/news/18371232/detail.html

Sorry, but this strikes me as totally ridiculous. If Dominic Casey has information pointing to Zenaida, or the real killer, or an alien abduction, I'm thinking he would be shouting it from the rooftops. Baez wants to have his cake and eat it too by hamstringing what DC can say about what he knows.

*Think they mean Dominic Casey here, not Casey Anthony

[browneyes106]

Does anyone how long Casey has known JP?

[Peachallie]

ORLANDO, Fla. -- Casey Anthony's lawyer Jose Baez has filed a new motion Monday.

He is afraid detectives are trying to get privileged information about the case from a private detective who used to work for his defense team, so he's asking a judge to intervene.

He is asking the judge to appoint a "special master" to oversee any questioning of the private investigator by law enforcement.

The private eye is a familiar face to insiders. He's Dominic Casey, who early on worked for Baez. Then in October, George and Cindy Anthony hired him to follow up on live sightings of Caylee Anthony.

Baez said law enforcement is now showing an interest in questioning Casey Anthony* and he wants to make sure they don't get any privileged information he may have learned while working for Baez...

http://www.wesh.com/news/18371232/detail.html

Sorry, but this strikes me as totally ridiculous. If Dominic Casey has information pointing to Zenaida, or the real killer, or an alien abduction, I'm thinking he would be shouting it from the rooftops. Baez wants to have his cake and eat it too by hamstringing what DC can say about what he knows.

*Think they mean Dominic Casey here, not Casey Anthony
******************************************
There may be incriminating evidence that would influence the judge; the usual reason for special masters is lack of judicial time. This case is a priority, it is doubtful anyone expects Strickland to carry much of a caseload aside from it.

[FDInLaw]

I was just reading up on the issue of Caylee's Dad on a News message board. . . geez, there are so many rumors and thoughts about this my mind is dizzy. Personally, I'm going to wait for some cold, hard evidence.

[lorettalockhorn]

******************************************
There may be incriminating evidence that would influence the judge; the usual reason for special masters is lack of judicial time. This case is a priority, it is doubtful anyone expects Strickland to carry much of a caseload aside from it.

The article states that the concern is that detectives will learn privileged information. My question is whether or not a PI's information is considered privileged. Not sure I understand how Strickland would be influenced negatively; it's not a bench trial.

I understand that Strickland was due to rotate to other duties, but has been assigned this case. I can fully understand that once the ball gets rolling, that he will have little time for anything or much else.

[lorettalockhorn]

I was just reading up on the issue of Caylee's Dad on a News message board. . . geez, there are so many rumors and thoughts about this my mind is dizzy. Personally, I'm going to wait for some cold, hard evidence.

I've read all kinds of theories as well as downright garbage. I believe Leonard Padilla is chiefly behind the "Lee is Caylee's father" business. Hopefully, whoever the guy is doesn't figure into Caylee's murder; it's hard enough to fathom a mother killing her child.

At any rate it's still shoddy for the Anthonys to keep him and his family from having known Caylee. She was a human being not chattel. These people are lowlifes.

[lorettalockhorn]

P.I. Says He Videotaped Area Where Caylee Was Later Found

Monday, December 29, 2008 – updated: 6:13 pm EST December 29, 2008
ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. -- Deputies want know what a private investigator was doing in the area where Caylee's body was found. They've been told he was videotaping the area a month before Caylee's body was discovered.

The private investigator was apparently working with the Anthony family at the time. It raises questions about whether the Anthonys knew the remains were there a month before they were found.

The private investigator who works with the Anthonys told Eyewitness News he came to the area the month before Caylee's remains were found and videotaped the area. He says the tape shows Caylee's body was not there at that time, but now investigators want to know why he was there with a camera in mid-November.

Private investigator Jim Hoover says he recorded the wooded area where Caylee Marie Anthony's remains were found about a month before they were found.

"We will definitely look into that, absolutely," said Carlos Padilla, Orange County Sheriff's Office.

Hoover briefly showed an Eyewitness News photographer a short clip of the videotape, which appeared to be authentic; the fence was recognizable.

"They know the existence of the tape and want to look at all evidence that's available," Padilla said.

Investigators also want to talk to the Anthonys' private investigator who works with Hoover, Dominic Casey. The defense wants to intervene, because Dominic Casey used to work for the defense and attorney Jose Baez doesn't want him to divulge privileged information.

Baez said investigators won't let him sit in on the questioning, so he's asking the judge to appoint a special master to protect defense secrets if the private eye agrees to talk.

"Investigators have tried to make arrangements with Mr. Casey to speak to him and he's not responded," Padilla said.

The defense's spokesman said they don't want their former private eye to divulge privileged conversations they might have had about where Caylee's remains might be.

http://www.wftv.com/news/18377039/detail.html#-

[lorettalockhorn]

...The motion states, "there is a chance that such questioning would delve into privileged information."

Baez stated he hired Casey as an investigator July 28, and the service agreement between the two was terminated Oct. 1.

During that time, Casey "acquired certain privileged information that would be protected under the work-product doctrine and the ethical standards adhered to by licensed private investigators."

After working with Baez, Casey was hired by Casey Anthony's parents George and Cindy Anthony to help with their search, the motion states.

Baez is requesting a "special master" be appointed to oversee any questioning of Casey "to ensure that no privileged information is wrongfully acquired."

Casey did not return a phone call for this story.


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/orl-bk-casey-anthony-pi-122908,0,4441713.story

[browneyes106]

Hi everyone I want to let you all know I might not be online too much over the next few days. I have surgery on my nose today. Right now I'm not in much pain but I have cast over my nose and plastic splints stitched inside my nose so I'm sort of irritated but what I have inside my nose and I have wear drip pad and mask to catch bleeding and mucus. I will be watching NG and if I'm up to posting I will post.

[lorettalockhorn]

Found this:

2. Work-product doctrine. Weaker than the attorney-client privilege, the work-product doctrine essentially protects any work done by, or specifically for, an attorney in the course of preparing legal advice "in anticipation of litigation."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4153/is_2_61/ai_n6152659

[lorettalockhorn]

Hi everyone I want to let you all know I might not be online too much over the next few days. I have surgery on my nose today. Right now I'm not in much pain but I have cast over my nose and plastic splints stitched inside my nose so I'm sort of irritated but what I have inside my nose and I have wear drip pad and mask to catch bleeding and mucus. I will be watching NG and if I'm up to posting I will post.

Oh my! Hope you mend well. And fast!

Your question earlier about JP Chatt; basically all I found was that he was Ricardo and/or Amy's roommate. Not much help, sorry.

[FDInLaw]

Hi everyone I want to let you all know I might not be online too much over the next few days. I have surgery on my nose today. Right now I'm not in much pain but I have cast over my nose and plastic splints stitched inside my nose so I'm sort of irritated but what I have inside my nose and I have wear drip pad and mask to catch bleeding and mucus. I will be watching NG and if I'm up to posting I will post.:eek:

Hope your snoz is on the mend soon! Sounds like you got a real nose job (I'm attempting some humor here lol). :seeya:

[SaraSidle]

:eek:

Hope your snoz is on the mend soon! Sounds like you got a real nose job (I'm attempting some humor here lol). :seeya:

you are always humorous. You cannot help yourself. I am baaaack. puter broke 10/31 and I just got it back today. Missed everyone here very much!!!!!!!!!!!! btw

[Peachallie]

The article states that the concern is that detectives will learn privileged information. My question is whether or not a PI's information is considered privileged. Not sure I understand how Strickland would be influenced negatively; it's not a bench trial.

I understand that Strickland was due to rotate to other duties, but has been assigned this case. I can fully understand that once the ball gets rolling, that he will have little time for anything or much else.
******************************************
Any person working with an attorney could come to know privileged "work product". Attorneys are generally responsible for explaining to employees what is privileged & confidential. Baez may need to be present during questioning & object to questions that involve work product. A special master could then rule on the questions & objections; it isn't that unusual.* But it is the CLIENT'S privilege, not the investigator's OR the attorney's. And the judge must rule on all questions of law, the judge's decisions could be tainted by inappropriate evidence improperly before the court. A special master can extract extraneous matters.



* Both questioning & depositions are only restricted to the extent that one can be questioned as to any matters LIKELY to lead to admissible evidence. Neither the trier of fact nor the trier of law should learn of possibly prejudicial matters that will not be offered as evidence in the case. AND, don't forget, Casey Anthony can waive her right to a jury trial at any time; then the judge will be the trier of both fact & law. (I doubt she will but the rules are in place to cover the "ifs".)

[mu8shark]

You don't get what I'm trying to say - I'm looking at it in the opposite way. She is such a horrible person that the jury would discredit any exculpatory evidence and focus more on finding her guilty of the highest charges regardless if you think there isn't enough evidence to prove anything other than Caylee has died and she was a bad mother.

GatorGator, sorry for replying to this so late but I completely agree . When you have been watching trials for a while you get used to this and I am sure you have been watching em a while. If there are two sets of testimony from the forensics ie yes there were signs of death in the trunk and no there were not, jurors tend to look at the character of the defendant as to what and why she or he is lying. It is one thing to be a liar on taxes, or if you pad a resume or you say you have slept with three guys in your life and really it is thirty, but she is lying about very specific matters pertaining to the case and her behavior afterwards is going to cause the jury not to give her the benefit of the doubt. IT is just normal common sense.Jurors weigh the evidence and realistically Casey's behavior is a factor.

[FDInLaw]

you are always humorous. You cannot help yourself. I am baaaack. puter broke 10/31 and I just got it back today. Missed everyone here very much!!!!!!!!!!!! btwYou are in big trouble missy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :no: You had us worried sick!

I just started a party thread for you in the lounge (btw). :hat:



Glad you are back! *jumping up and down*

:beer:

[Gatordog]

Does anyone how long Casey has known JP?

JP was Jesse's roommate when he was engaged to the liar.

Gator

[browneyes106]

Oh my! Hope you mend well. And fast!

Your question earlier about JP Chatt; basically all I found was that he was Ricardo and/or Amy's roommate. Not much help, sorry.

:eek:

Hope your snoz is on the mend soon! Sounds like you got a real nose job (I'm attempting some humor here lol). :seeya:

I remember reading that he was Ricardo and Amy's roommate but I wondered if knew Casey years ago.

I pretty much did get a nose job. The surgery was a combination of a septoplasty, rhinoplasty and turbinate reduction. I suffer from sleep apnea and I have hard time breathing because of sinus problems my nose has been broken three times in my life. My nose will look a little different. The cast doesn't come off for 14 days but I get the splints off in next Monday. But the hardest part of today was undergoing conscious intubation before I was put to sleep. I wasn't supposed to remember it but I remember it pretty well. If you watch this video you will get an idea of what I experienced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXjPdNSL96c

[mu8shark]

*******************************************
A jury might, but the conviction will be overturned on appeal if there isn't a bare minimum of evidence for the jury to find her guilty. Someone typing in the words "neck breaking" into a computer she had access to three months before the victim disappeared ain't gonna do it. There is no evidence Caylee Anthony suffered a broken neck. The search of the grandparent's house may have turned up some physical evidence that is incriminating; the defense hasn't been crowing lately.If somebody has already addressed this I apologize, because I am catching up. But appeals court do not retry the case and look at the evidence. At the end of the case, the defense will probably ask for a directed acquittal saying there is not enough evidence for the jury even to decide. A judge almost always says no. A appeals court looks at the actual process of the trial, was the defense competent, did a juror have misconduct, did the trial judge admit improper evidence, What they do not do is go over all the evidence at trial to see if there was enough evidence to have a trial . A judge and grand jury have already done that by the end of trial. Not to be a know it all, but people have a lot of misconceptions about what the appeal process involves.

[mu8shark]

you are always humorous. You cannot help yourself. I am baaaack. puter broke 10/31 and I just got it back today. Missed everyone here very much!!!!!!!!!!!! btw Hello, glad to see you back. I asked another member if you were alright. Glad to see you are okay.

[hawgustusgloop]

Found this:

2. Work-product doctrine. Weaker than the attorney-client privilege, the work-product doctrine essentially protects any work done by, or specifically for, an attorney in the course of preparing legal advice "in anticipation of litigation."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m4153/is_2_61/ai_n6152659

OK I have been trying REALLY hard to stay away from this case ever since I saw a picture of Caylee wearing a red jacket with a dalmatian on it. My daughter has one just like it hanging in her closet. Upsetting.

I am wondering if this work-product doctrine applies, if the PI was working for the parents? I thought at some point this PI stopped working for Casey & Co.? Or maybe I am confused...quite possible with this case.

[mu8shark]

What we have to remember is that not one piece of evidence has to tell the whole story. It is all of the evidence together. It paints a picture of what happened and who did what and when. The searches show, IMO, intent. She intended to kill Caylee. She didn't do it by mistake. If she used chloroform, and I think she did, it was with the intent of ending Caylee's life, not keeping her quiet to go party. If that was what she wanted she could have "fessed up" and let her parents keep Caylee. She could have let her parents have Caylee and she wouldn't have been weighed down with her anymore. IMO, this whole thing boils down to a selfish brat that wanted it her way. She killed her daughter to spite her mother and to not bring herself into a bad light. If she would have simply given her child up she would have, in her eyes I suppose, looked like a bad mother. She couldn't stand it if she were seen as a bad mother. It simply didn't go with the image she wanted for herself. So, Caylee had to die and she had to pin the murder on someone else. Enter the nanny that doesn't exist.

This was cold hearted, calculated, first degree murder. On top of that, she ain't as smart as she thinks she is.Excellent , excellent post . It is truly going to be all the evidence and just a comment on the comp searches . Somebody a while back said if they could not prove Casey was doing the searching they would not come in, untrue in the Scott Peterson case when someone searched for the tides in the Bay they absolutely could not prove Scott did them, but they presented the evidence and let the jury decide how much weight to give it. I am pretty sure it will be so in this case. The jury will look at who used that comp , if somebody was sending emails at the same time as the searches, who was home? Etc.

[mu8shark]

OK I have been trying REALLY hard to stay away from this case ever since I saw a picture of Caylee wearing a red jacket with a dalmatian on it. My daughter has one just like it hanging in her closet. Upsetting.

I am wondering if this work-product doctrine applies, if the PI was working for the parents? I thought at some point this PI stopped working for Casey & Co.? Or maybe I am confused...quite possible with this case.Here is my take on this, if the Anthonys hired this guy, work product will not apply. The Anthonys are not party to the criminal procedure technically. IF Jose Baez hired him and can prove he hired him at a certain time for the defense specifically, maybe.

[lorettalockhorn]

OK I have been trying REALLY hard to stay away from this case ever since I saw a picture of Caylee wearing a red jacket with a dalmatian on it. My daughter has one just like it hanging in her closet. Upsetting.

I am wondering if this work-product doctrine applies, if the PI was working for the parents? I thought at some point this PI stopped working for Casey & Co.? Or maybe I am confused...quite possible with this case.

Hey you! That's what I was having trouble understanding, until I read and re-read the article; Dominic Casey worked for Baez until 10/1/08 when he began working for G&C.

And while we're having Old Home Week: Welcome Back Sara! We wuz worried!

ETA: Janie Weintraub(sp?) is explaining about the work doctrine on JV-M tonight. Surely Nancy Grace will be all over this as well.

[Gatordog]

I remember reading that he was Ricardo and Amy's roommate but I wondered if knew Casey years ago.

I pretty much did get a nose job. The surgery was a combination of a septoplasty, rhinoplasty and turbinate reduction. I suffer from sleep apnea and I have hard time breathing because of sinus problems my nose has been broken three times in my life. My nose will look a little different. The cast doesn't come off for 14 days but I get the splints off in next Monday. But the hardest part of today was undergoing conscious intubation before I was put to sleep. I wasn't supposed to remember it but I remember it pretty well. If you watch this video you will get an idea of what I experienced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXjPdNSL96c

I hope you heal quickly. I read months ago that JP was the roommate of Casey's fiancee and that they did not like each other (the liar and JP). Sounds like there might have been some cheating on Jesse (everyone who is not shocked, raise your hand :seeya:. Thought so. Could be why she wouldn't admit who the father is - then she would prove the things that Jesse and his family might have thought of her. were true.

Gator

[mu8shark]

It is very difficult to have a mother judged as unfit in court. On the outside, we see things about casey that were not evident then or could not have been proven in court. Remember, cindy, IMO, has the same problems. cindy would have seen this as an attack on her "mothering" ability. I agree that it is hard to take a kid away from a mother. You can't just go into court and say she seems to want to party. I think that the Anthonys were damned if you do and damned if they didn't.

[Amy]

Apologies if this has been a topic of discussion before now, but don't you think that if Casey knew who Caylee's father was, she would have tapped him for child support? Wouldn't her parents have wondered who Caylee's father was and wonder why he wasn't paying child support as well? Maybe the fact that as far as I know no child support was ever mentioned, then perhaps Caylee's father is unknown to even Casey, or he could have really been killed in an automobile accident.
It just seems that Casey's not having a job for a while and stealing from her friend certainly showed that she was desperate to get hold of money by whatever means possible, and child support would have been at least a legitimate means of doing so.

According to Cindy, Casey told her the father's name, and there was an obit Casey showed here where the father died. Supposedly in an auto accident on the way to the 2nd birthday party of Caylee, the child whose life he never was a part of. (Now, tell me, do you believe that the man would not have told anyone else about this daughter? He just decided to show up in her life on her 2nd birthday?) Oh, and BTW, altho Cindy says that obit is somewhere in a drawer, she can't remember the name, and evidently didn't make any attempt to find it. Not that I believe there was one. For one, I think it would be difficult to forget the name of the man who fathered your grandchild.

AND, Cindy told LE, or maybe FBI, that she had gone to a lawyer to make arrangements that if anything happened to Casey that she and George would have sole custody of Caylee. When that was checked out (she had given the lawyer's name) the lawyer had no file on that.

I can see Cindy going along w/not finding the biodad--then she would not have to share Caylee w/the dad OR any relatives he would have, especially another set of grandparents. Evidently the job she had, she made enough to pay all her bills, and yet pay for Caylee. I know one can get grandchildren on their insurance policy--might have to pay a bit more, but it can be done, especially if she could prove she is supporting and raising Caylee. I just think not sharing Caylee was more important than money that could be provided thru child support. And, especially if Casey truly doesn't know who the dad is (which is what I think) I think she just went with it.

[mu8shark]

His big oops was referring to Lee as Caylee's father, rather than her uncle. His smaller oops was opening his mouth at all. Why did he say that the Anthonys aren't witnesses? And why did he announce that funds will be paid back? Shouldn't he be announcing that funds have been paid back? How long is this little SNAFU going to take to remedy?

Is there anyone anywhere connected to the Anthonys who doesn't come off as an idiot?
Arrgh I agree, how do they manage to find the worst representatives and the money will be paid back.??? Does everybody in this family steal and find it acceptable if they just make the right excuse?

[FDInLaw]

I remember reading that he was Ricardo and Amy's roommate but I wondered if knew Casey years ago.

I pretty much did get a nose job. The surgery was a combination of a septoplasty, rhinoplasty and turbinate reduction. I suffer from sleep apnea and I have hard time breathing because of sinus problems my nose has been broken three times in my life. My nose will look a little different. The cast doesn't come off for 14 days but I get the splints off in next Monday. But the hardest part of today was undergoing conscious intubation before I was put to sleep. I wasn't supposed to remember it but I remember it pretty well. If you watch this video you will get an idea of what I experienced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXjPdNSL96cHow about I give you a cyber hug and skip the video. . . . just had dinner and I'm not so sure . . .

*squeeze*