SQUARE ONE: Crime scene analysis

[FDInLaw]

This thread is reserved for discussion about the physical evidence found or missing from the crime scene. (Note, the condom wrapper has a thread all it's own.)

[FDInLaw]

#9662 Today, 01:06 PM
CSOKC
Member Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 153


Evidence Review

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I really want to do a quick review of some of the pieces of evidence. What do we know about these items, etc.? I am going to make a list, and then if anyone has anything to add please feel free!

Underwear
Knife
Blood Spots A) Light Switch B) Oven Door C) Carpet
Bloody Print on bulb (Although everyone already knows who this belongs to)
Fingernail
Condom Wrapper
Door Stick
Cell Phone
Cell Phone Battery

Okay, well I thought this was a good idea, but then I blanked.

[CSOKC]

This thread is reserved for discussion about the physical evidence found or missing from the crime scene. (Note, the condom wrapper has a thread all it's own.)
How about we start at the top of the list and go down?

First is the underwear. I've never understood the underwear having Kevin's semen in them since they hadn't had sex in a couple of days. Earlier there had been a comment by someone that they couldn't understand why Nona would be wearing dirty underwear. I did hear someone (maybe on 48 hours?) say that the semen could have been leaking out over a period of days.


Sorry for the someone's...as usual my memory isn't giving me all the details.

[FDInLaw]

Kevin Noppinger, a lab director from DNA Labs International, a private consulting firm, testified in December 2006 that he analyzed at the defense’s request a pair of panties recovered from the crime scene, an opened condom wrapper also recovered at the scene and fingernail clippings and vaginal and rectal swabs taken from Dirksmeyer’s body by Kokes at the time of autopsy.
Noppinger found only DNA belonging to the victim under her nail clippings, he said, although he did find “Y-chromosome” DNA evidence on the condom wrapper, Dirksmeyer’s panties and on the vaginal swab, according to his testimony.
Terri Rolfe, chief resident DNA expert with the Arkansas State Crime Lab who testified earlier in the day, informed the jury there are three types of testable DNA — nuclear, mitochondrial and Y-chromosome. Nuclear DNA, according to Rolfe, is unique to each person, while mitochondrial and Y-chromosome DNA are maternally and paternally linked, respectively. She clarified they “will point to a lineage rather than a particular person,” although they can be used to exclude certain donors assuming they do not share an ancestry with the actual donor of the DNA.
Noppinger testified although there “wasn’t a lot of DNA” on the condom wrapper, he was able to conclusively exclude Jones as the donor of the sample. Jones was, however, the donor of the spermatozoal DNA found on the vaginal swab and panties, according to Noppinger.
DNA testing does not provide information as to possible times when a sample may have been deposited, Noppinger said, although he was able to conclude the samples he found on the swab and panties were “consistent with [Jones] having had sex with Nona Dirksmeyer a few days before” the murder by testing acid phosphatase present in the sample.
According to Noppinger’s testimony, acid phosphatase is an enzyme present in sperm cells that breaks down over time. Because he found the phosphatase present in the sample that he discovered to be sufficiently diluted, he determined the spermatozoa cells found present on the panties might have been residual of a previous encounter, even surviving a light “hand washing,” or could be a result of drainage from intercourse up to a day or two earlier, according to his testimony.
http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15439&Search=kevin%20jones

[CSOKC]

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15439&Search=kevin%20jones
Good find! That takes care of the underwear, unless anyone else has something to add?

[FDInLaw]

This is weird!!! From the SAME article:

Earlier in the day, Edward Bauman, a forensic serologist who conducts bodily fluid and DNA examination and testing at the Arkansas State Crime Lab testified he found no seminal fluid or DNA evidence on either the panties or the vaginal swab.
He also denied having found a fingernail or any seminal fluid in the approximately 10-by-10 foot section of carpeting removed from the scene, saying had he noticed any such evidence “I would have collected it.”
Bauman did perform tests on swabs of blood removed from the oven door in Dirksmeyer’s apartment along with the pole and base of the lamp alleged to be the murder weapon. He found that blood to belong to Dirksmeyer, according to his testimony.


What the heck??? :shrug:

[FDInLaw]

Found this over on In Session Message Boards. . .

Device Claims To Find Deleted Text Messages

Last Edited: Tuesday, 26 Feb 2008, 12:34 PM MST
Created: Tuesday, 26 Feb 2008, 12:34 PM MST

Read deleted phone text messages. MyFoxNY Reports


Think the text messages and other private data on your cell phone are safe? A device being sold on the internet claims to allow you to read private data stored on almost any mobile phone SIM card, including deleted messages.

Brickhouse Security claims the Cell Phone Spy data Extractor will find deleted text and view dialed numbers.
The Web site says you need to remove the SIM card from the phone, put it in the reader device and then plug it into your computer.

Brickhouse markets it as a way to spy on a wife, husband, teen or colleague's phone. . .

The spy tool doesn't come cheap. It retails for $149 on BrickHousesecurity.com. MyFoxNY.com hasn't tested the device and cannot verify its


http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5883970&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.1.1

[CSOKC]

Found this over on In Session Message Boards. . .



http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5883970&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.1.1
I wonder if this would work after so long though? And is it the same SIM card in the phone? Also, her phone didn't store the text messages that she sent (right?), so those wouldn't be able to show up even with this thing if I'm reading it correctly. It should show any messages that she deleted that were sent to her though, if it actually works.

Did we ever find out who sent the "I wonder why you are leading me on?" text message?

[lorettalockhorn]

Looks like this wouldn't work since the information has been written over with Duane's numbers, etc.

http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/cellphone-spy-simcardreader.html

[FDInLaw]

Looks like this wouldn't work since the information has been written over with Duane's numbers, etc.

http://www.brickhousesecurity.com/cellphone-spy-simcardreader.html
From your link:

FAQ:
How many deleted messages will I be able to recover?

Answer:
Everything that is available to be recovered! Just like deleted files on a PC hard drive, as long as the deleted data on the SIM card hasn’t been written over by a new file, it can still be retrieved. Some SIM cards hold more data than others, which is a factor in total amount of data.

Please note: Not all cell phones have SIM cards **
This product will not work with the following:
Some Nextel/Sprint 2 Way phones
All Verizon Phones
Some Prepaid phones


What kind of phone did Nona have? This might give us a clue as to how much info the lab would have been able to get off it.

[lorettalockhorn]

>>as long as the deleted data on the SIM card hasn’t been written over by a new file

Is removing Nona's information and adding Duane's the same as writing over?

[FDInLaw]

>>as long as the deleted data on the SIM card hasn’t been written over by a new file

Is removing Nona's information and adding Duane's the same as writing over?I'm gonna guess, yes.

[lorettalockhorn]

We need for Ox to help us with this technical stuff.

[hawgustusgloop]

>>as long as the deleted data on the SIM card hasn’t been written over by a new file

Is removing Nona's information and adding Duane's the same as writing over?

I am not sure about that, but I think a lot of it is overwritten automatically through continued use of the phone (logs of new calls, etc.).

[ifIwereU]

Good find! That takes care of the underwear, unless anyone else has something to add?

don't forget the panties were still inside the jeans that were turned inside out...as if they had been removed together at the same time....

[ifIwereU]

#9662 Today, 01:06 PM
CSOKC
Member Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 153


Evidence Review

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I really want to do a quick review of some of the pieces of evidence. What do we know about these items, etc.? I am going to make a list, and then if anyone has anything to add please feel free!

Underwear
Knife
Blood Spots A) Light Switch B) Oven Door C) Carpet
Bloody Print on bulb (Although everyone already knows who this belongs to)
Fingernail
Condom Wrapper
Door Stick
Cell Phone
Cell Phone Battery

Okay, well I thought this was a good idea, but then I blanked.


bra...found on living room floor...NO blood evidence found
the additional prints on the lamp that bacon claims are comparable but crime lab said was not suitiable for comparison

[guppie]

Found this over on In Session Message Boards. . .



http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5883970&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.1.1

aren't you on the ball. no wonder you got a headache!

[guppie]

>>as long as the deleted data on the SIM card hasn’t been written over by a new file

Is removing Nona's information and adding Duane's the same as writing over?

i imagine that as old a model as that phone looked to be, it would not have a lot of storage space. but if duane did not store a whole lot of info (numbers, calls, texts, etc), then this could actually work to retrieve info if it's legit. i am skeptical about these types of things. this wasn't like some kinda infommercial, was it? ;)

[lorettalockhorn]

No, actually, it's the product from FD's 4:32pm link.

[guppie]

No, actually, it's the product from FD's 4:32pm link.

i was joking about the infommercial, but i am a bit skeptical of these things that claim to do what's never been done. guess i'm old school. wonder if duane still has the phone.

[FDInLaw]

don't forget the panties were still inside the jeans that were turned inside out...as if they had been removed together at the same time....

How could that be forgotten. . . does anyone undress that way? Another sign of staging IMO.

[CSOKC]

How could that be forgotten. . . does anyone undress that way? Another sign of staging IMO.
I also think it could have been a way of humiliating her. Making her undress or something...if someone was in a hurry to get their clothes off I can see them removing their panties and pants at the same time.

[CSOKC]

Next is the knife. I reposted a link earlier that jonikay originally posted talking about how the cuts didn't look like they were made by a knife. This, and the fact that a knife was found on the kitchen counter is all that I really know.

[CSOKC]

Next is the knife. I reposted a link earlier that jonikay originally posted talking about how the cuts didn't look like they were made by a knife. This, and the fact that a knife was found on the kitchen counter is all that I really know.
jonikay
Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 355


burn pile . . .

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You're right, lo. There is probably a handful of relevant evidence sitting in a burn pile somewhere (dover, perhaps . . . that was a joke . . . sort of) with such things as the door stick, the cell battery, the actual condom (although I think the condom as a whole was just planted evidence), and possibly another weapon. Of course, I believe that the lamp base was the primary weapon used in the attack. I also believe that the possible other weapon is unconventional. It was probably something that was already sitting in the apartment, something small that was easy to carry out along with the other stuff. I assume, due to what the coroner stated about the autopsy and what I remember reading, that the cut through her throat was probably not even close to being consistent with a knife, or they never would have said that they didn't think it was a knife. And, for all we know, it may be sharp force trauma with a slash in our minds, but more of a gash to the experts.


Here is that post.

[FDInLaw]

Yesterday I did quite a bit of reading. . . didn't find much about the knife. I don't think Nona's blood was found on the knife found on the counter IIRC. :shrug: Will have to dig some more. . .

[jonikay]

Ok . . . this could help. Just NOW researching through my notes. The defense in opening statements stated that the knife was moved during the primary investigation and could be found in different areas according to the pics taken at crime scene.

[jonikay]

So now we see that the defense has stated that during the initial crime scene analysis:
The cell phone was moved and placed on the table
Knife moved
Lampshade moved
This is all taken from defense opening statements and has been stated based on different placements of objects in different crime scene photos

[ifIwereU]

jonikay
Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 355


burn pile . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're right, lo. There is probably a handful of relevant evidence sitting in a burn pile somewhere (dover, perhaps . . . that was a joke . . . sort of) with such things as the door stick, the cell battery, the actual condom (although I think the condom as a whole was just planted evidence), and possibly another weapon. Of course, I believe that the lamp base was the primary weapon used in the attack. I also believe that the possible other weapon is unconventional. It was probably something that was already sitting in the apartment, something small that was easy to carry out along with the other stuff. I assume, due to what the coroner stated about the autopsy and what I remember reading, that the cut through her throat was probably not even close to being consistent with a knife, or they never would have said that they didn't think it was a knife. And, for all we know, it may be sharp force trauma with a slash in our minds, but more of a gash to the experts.


Here is that post.

I don't think the ME said "it wasn't a knife" I think he felt it was the serrated knife that was recovered from the kitchen near the condom...and no blood was found on that knife.....

[ifIwereU]

So now we see that the defense has stated that during the initial crime scene analysis:
The cell phone was moved and placed on the table
Knife moved
Lampshade moved
This is all taken from defense opening statements and has been stated based on different placements of objects in different crime scene photos

just for clarication....there were photos taken by Frost and some taken by the coroner some time after Frost's initial pics

[jonikay]

Whenever they were taken, objects from the crime scene were moved and evidence was tampered with before it was supposed to be and without gloves. This was testified to. Based on all these flubs, it would be difficult for anyone to be convicted of this murder. I believe this was why KJ was acquitted. It became apparent that the rpd was not thorough and was careless during the crime scene analysis. What a joke this was and what a shame.

[FDInLaw]

I don't think the ME said "it wasn't a knife" I think he felt it was the serrated knife that was recovered from the kitchen near the condom...and no blood was found on that knife....."Was" or "wasn't"???

[ifIwereU]

"Was" or "wasn't"???

glad you caught that.....WAS NOT the knife....I almost lost some reputation points on that flub

[FDInLaw]

glad you caught that.....WAS NOT the knife....I almost lost some reputation points on that flub
That there is a flub if I ever saw! :D

I'm still scatching my head over the "boots" found at Marva's. Were you there the day this was mentioned?

[ifIwereU]

That there is a flub if I ever saw! :D

I'm still scatching my head over the "boots" found at Marva's. Were you there the day this was mentioned?

I think Frost was the one who explained they were not connected to jones but RPD did called by someone at Marva about some bloody "tennis shoes" and they were sent for testing...I never heard the part about animal blood. I might have missed that though....

[CSOKC]

I think Frost was the one who explained they were not connected to jones but RPD did called by someone at Marva about some bloody "tennis shoes" and they were sent for testing...I never heard the part about animal blood. I might have missed that though....
Thank you for your information on this.

Next are the blood spots. I forgot about the blood on the blinds, plus there is the blood on the oven, the carpet and on the light switch.

I still don't know if the light switch was in the kitchen or near the kitchen.

[ifIwereU]

Thank you for your information on this.

Next are the blood spots. I forgot about the blood on the blinds, plus there is the blood on the oven, the carpet and on the light switch.

I still don't know if the light switch was in the kitchen or near the kitchen.

my recollection of the blood near the light switch was it was near the front entry door close to a hanging key rack, where Nona's keys were found hanging...that apartment was a typical townhouse style apt......the entry door, from the outside, led into a hallway with the stairs going up on the left and there was a door on the right that led into the kitchen area..the hallway itself was about 20 or so feet and went straight into the living room...RPD did a good job of photographing the scene...
there was also a "blood swipe" on the wall near the stairs

[CSOKC]

my recollection of the blood near the light switch was it was near the front entry door close to a hanging key rack, where Nona's keys were found hanging...that apartment was a typical townhouse style apt......the entry door, from the outside, led into a hallway with the stairs going up on the left and there was a door on the right that led into the kitchen area..the hallway itself was about 20 or so feet and went straight into the living room...RPD did a good job of photographing the scene...
there was also a "blood swipe" on the wall near the stairs
It's a little strange that blood starts near the front door and continues in the hallway near the stairs, then there is also blood in the kitchen. It seems like it would make more sense if there was blood near the front door, in the hallway and also in the living room. But I don't see how blood got into the kitchen. Maybe Nona was trying to get away from her attacker and ran into the kitchen? I don't know...it's all very sad.

[jonikay]

That there is a flub if I ever saw! :D

I'm still scatching my head over the "boots" found at Marva's. Were you there the day this was mentioned?
I was. Boots with blood on them were retrieved from Marva, along with some other things that KJ was asked to drop off by his mom. The boots were tested and the blood on them was found to be animal blood. The boots were his dad's and they were used to go hunting with. Either that or he kicked a cat or something (sorry, I'm in a joking mood.) The defense thought it funny that they contributed a large part of the investigation to the boots that did not yield any real results for the prosecution.

[lorettalockhorn]

It's a little strange that blood starts near the front door and continues in the hallway near the stairs, then there is also blood in the kitchen. It seems like it would make more sense if there was blood near the front door, in the hallway and also in the living room. But I don't see how blood got into the kitchen. Maybe Nona was trying to get away from her attacker and ran into the kitchen? I don't know...it's all very sad.

Could the blood in the hallway been the result of KJ hitting the wall while the officer (Edgin, correction) stood with him?

From FD's post this morning in the main thread:

Sgt. Tracy Edgin, the second RPD officer to arrive on the scene on the night of Dirksmeyer’s murder, testified he observed officer Larry Beyette coming down the stairs of Dirksmeyer’s apartment when he entered, noting of Jones that “his face and his hands and his arms were covered in a red substance that I believe to be blood.” He waited with Jones in the area of the stairs for approximately 15 minutes while others secured the crime scene, according to his testimony, during which time Jones asked if Dirksmeyer was dead and told Edgin he planned to ask Dirksmeyer to marry him that night. Jones kicked and hit the wall with his fist at one point, Edgin testified, although he did stop when Edgin requested he do so.
He also testified Jones told him after receiving a text message from Dirksmeyer that morning, he tried to call her “later in the day” but “she would not answer.”

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_...=kevin%20jones

[FDInLaw]

Could the blood in the hallway been the result of KJ hitting the wall while the officer (Edgin, correction) stood with him?

From FD's post this morning in the main thread:

Sgt. Tracy Edgin, the second RPD officer to arrive on the scene on the night of Dirksmeyer’s murder, testified he observed officer Larry Beyette coming down the stairs of Dirksmeyer’s apartment when he entered, noting of Jones that “his face and his hands and his arms were covered in a red substance that I believe to be blood.” He waited with Jones in the area of the stairs for approximately 15 minutes while others secured the crime scene, according to his testimony, during which time Jones asked if Dirksmeyer was dead and told Edgin he planned to ask Dirksmeyer to marry him that night. Jones kicked and hit the wall with his fist at one point, Edgin testified, although he did stop when Edgin requested he do so.
He also testified Jones told him after receiving a text message from Dirksmeyer that morning, he tried to call her “later in the day” but “she would not answer.”

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_...=kevin%20jonesGreat question! That kid was all over the apartment. :cool:

[Amy]

I wonder if this would work after so long though? And is it the same SIM card in the phone? Also, her phone didn't store the text messages that she sent (right?), so those wouldn't be able to show up even with this thing if I'm reading it correctly. It should show any messages that she deleted that were sent to her though, if it actually works.

Did we ever find out who sent the "I wonder why you are leading me on?" text message?

I don't have a SIM card, at least that I know of, on my phone. But, when I look under messages, my options are to read messages received and messages sent. They automatically go away at some point--I don't have a clue as to how long they are there. I suppose I could delete them if I had a clue how to do that.

Anyway, if out-going messages on my el-cheapo, basic kind of phone are in the storage, wouldn't they be on SIM card?

(I don't even have a clue what the SIM card is, lol.)

[sololobo]

Any item out of place should be considered in a crime scene analysis. Let's add the following:

Overturned table lamp
Liquid substance on table
Candle on the floor
Greeting card on floor by body
Thermostat on/off switch
Location of green sweater
Location of Nona's shoes

Also of interest is the crack in the door jamb.

Each of the above and the ones previously mentioned have a story to tell which may or may not be relevant to the murder. The relevant ones should be inter-related and will help weave a tapesty of what occurred there that day.

[sololobo]

I am not sure about that, but I think a lot of it is overwritten automatically through continued use of the phone (logs of new calls, etc.).

Yes, over time the card would be overwritten. How long did Duane have the phone before he returned it?

[sololobo]

Whenever they were taken, objects from the crime scene were moved and evidence was tampered with before it was supposed to be and without gloves. This was testified to. Based on all these flubs, it would be difficult for anyone to be convicted of this murder. I believe this was why KJ was acquitted. It became apparent that the rpd was not thorough and was careless during the crime scene analysis. What a joke this was and what a shame.

After reading the above post, I guess this question needs to be asked. Could the condom wrapper have been moved?

[Amy]

After reading the above post, I guess this question needs to be asked. Could the condom wrapper have been moved?

I'd think it is more likely than not, considering that other things were moved about. The other question would be, by who? Was LE wearing gloves at any time? (They do in the movies, ya know;) ) Otherwise, wouldn't there be more fingerprints by the mover?

[guppie]

Any item out of place should be considered in a crime scene analysis. Let's add the following:

Overturned table lamp
Liquid substance on table
Candle on the floor
Greeting card on floor by body
Thermostat on/off switch
Location of green sweater
Location of Nona's shoes

Also of interest is the crack in the door jamb.

Each of the above and the ones previously mentioned have a story to tell which may or may not be relevant to the murder. The relevant ones should be inter-related and will help weave a tapesty of what occurred there that day.

greeting card on table! see photo

[hawgustusgloop]

greeting card on table! see photo

Christina said she thought there were two cards, one on the floor near Nona and one with the mail JJones was looking through to find an address.

[guppie]

Christina said she thought there were two cards, one on the floor near Nona and one with the mail JJones was looking through to find an address.


from what i saw in the photo, there were 3 cards-two face up and one face down-on the coffee table. the one on top with the bear on the front has fingerprints in blood on it. i can only assume that is the card in question. if there was another card KJ touched on the floor, in addition to the one he apparently looked at that is located on the table, that would explain the discrepancy. although i don't think that is so.

[Amy]

from what i saw in the photo, there were 3 cards-two face up and one face down-on the coffee table. the one on top with the bear on the front has fingerprints in blood on it. i can only assume that is the card in question. if there was another card KJ touched on the floor, in addition to the one he apparently looked at that is located on the table, that would explain the discrepancy. although i don't think that is so.

The card could have been moved by anyone at the scene prior to those particular pics being taken. Just the past couple of days, there were posts about how things were in one place in some pics, and another place in other pics.

[guppie]

The card could have been moved by anyone at the scene prior to those particular pics being taken. Just the past couple of days, there were posts about how things were in one place in some pics, and another place in other pics.


i was only stating what was shown in the photo on 48 hrs. that is what i see. for all i know, it could have been a fake photo that 48 hrs cooked up. someone that saw the actual photos at trial could say whether the card with the bloody prints was on the table or not.

[ifIwereU]

i was only stating what was shown in the photo on 48 hrs. that is what i see. for all i know, it could have been a fake photo that 48 hrs cooked up. someone that saw the actual photos at trial could say whether the card with the bloody prints was on the table or not.

when jones drew a diagram of the scene, he drew the card on the floor near Nona's head....the card was on the table when LE took photos....leads me to beleive Jones picked the card up off the floor and then put it on the table. There was also a candle that had blood on it on the floor in the photos

[Amy]

I don't know how to bring quotes over from the other threads, but sololobo's post #10093 has an excerpt from a news article reporting on the trial. It also says that the card was originally on the floor.

I agree with the part that, we have no idea when the picture was taken--before or after items were moved about at the crime scene by KJ et al and/or police officers. If the phone had been moved, why would it be too much to think that the card(s) had been also?

[FDInLaw]

when jones drew a diagram of the scene, he drew the card on the floor near Nona's head....the card was on the table when LE took photos....leads me to beleive Jones picked the card up off the floor and then put it on the table. There was also a candle that had blood on it on the floor in the photosThis makes sense to me. :read:

[CSOKC]

I wonder if this would work after so long though? And is it the same SIM card in the phone? Also, her phone didn't store the text messages that she sent (right?), so those wouldn't be able to show up even with this thing if I'm reading it correctly. It should show any messages that she deleted that were sent to her though, if it actually works.

Did we ever find out who sent the "I wonder why you are leading me on?" text message?
I just wanted to repost these questions. They seem to have gotten lost in the greeting card on the table/floor argument.

[jonikay]

IIRC, they retrieved all the info they needed from Nona's phone, except for fingerprints or DNA. I guess the defense wanted to test for themselves, but Duane had it. My opinion on this is the defense caught wind of Duane having the phone and it was at that point that they went to to PD to request it, knowing all along that he had it. Bad move on the part of Duane and the PD. Anyway, as Duane started using the phone for himself, Nona's information was being erased. Imagine everytime that Duane added a contact to the phoe, one of Nona's would get erased. You can retrieve information from a SIM card, but it isn't an everlasting kind of thing. It gets pushed out by all the new information coming in.

[guppie]

I just wanted to repost these questions. They seem to have gotten lost in the greeting card on the table/floor argument.

sorry, it doesn't matter where the card was located. KJ still picked it up and looked in it and that is freaky, creepy, and whatever else you wanna say. "ghoulishly stalkerish?" i stole that line!

his prints in NONA"S blood are on it and it was her card!

i don't think they ever determined who that was from. i remember asking that and got a response that was a "no."

[jonikay]

It was from Nona's mother.

[guppie]

It was from Nona's mother.

sorry, i meant i don't think they determined who the "why are you leading me on?" text was from. i asked that question last week, and it was answered as undetermined.

[FDInLaw]

sorry, it doesn't matter where the card was located. KJ still picked it up and looked in it and that is freaky, creepy, and whatever else you wanna say. "ghoulishly stalkerish?" i stole that line!

his prints in NONA"S blood are on it and it was her card!

i don't think they ever determined who that was from. i remember asking that and got a response that was a "no."
The card was found near Nona's body was it not? I don't find it odd that one of them would pick it up. . . stupid in light of maintaining a crime scene for investigators. . . but granted, an easy mistake for a grieving person to do. When faced with a shocking death, a question immediately arises. . . WHY??? I don't find it odd that Kevin was seemingly trying to answer this. What bothers me is the way he was on top of the body when the EMT arrived. Also, the statement about the missing stick. Guess it is possible that if the stick were there Kevin would have remembered when he tried to open the door. It's possible that he reacted by trying to open the door without thinking about it. Still his actions and statement contradict themselves. Not an admission of guilt in and of itself but just one of many circumstances that raises questions in my mind.

Janise Jones made a startling statement on the stand, that Kevin only had average intelligence. . . this has always stuck with me. I wonder if this was a sign of frustration with him on her part. The clips of the interrogations that I have seen seem mild, I don't think LE was "abusing" Kevin in any way (do some reading about Kenneth Osborne and you will see what I mean). Kevin could have left at any time or asked for a lawyer, but he did not. I do believe Kevin has a tendency to manipulate and even lie for attention (as demonstrated by his behavior). However, it's just all out DUMB to do this when your girlfriend has been murdered. Kevin lied and contradicted himself. . . not a smart move. It is possible that the kid was just stupid and didn't realize the trouble he was getting himself into. One would think that the severity of the situation would convince him to play it straight, but maybe the kid is an idiot??? I really don't know.

[jonikay]

I agree that the greeting card is not relevant to the motive. I think that he was just looking through all of her papers to find an address. And even more weird than laying on top of her body is the fact that he actually picked the top half of her body up and was going to do Lord knows what in front of the EMT. Why, in the name of God would he want to pick her up? Pick her up and move her? Those actions, still to this day, do not cease to amaze me. Maybe this was all a game to him, to see how far he could go. I think that KJ is highly intelligent and knew that the RPD was going to screw this up. It's like he was handing them his life, his information, everything . . . almost on purpose because he knew he would outsmart the investigators and HE DID!

[TJEddie]

IIRC, the heat was turned down or off, leaving the apartment noticeably cold. There was much discussion about this possibly being an attempt to disguise TOD by slowing body decomposition. I recently ran across an article about how body cooling is also used medically to limit brain damage in cases of traumatic brain injury. I thought that was interesting, considering Nona's injuries and the testimony that she might not have been dead when her killer left. Just another thought to throw into the mix.....

[JR2007]

bra...found on living room floor...NO blood evidence found
the additional prints on the lamp that bacon claims are comparable but crime lab said was not suitiable for comparison

When you write Bacon's name as bacon it makes him seem like a real pig,
or is that term not used anymore for cops.

Added to list below:

Underwear
Knife
Blood Spots A) Light Switch B) Oven Door C) Carpet
Bloody Print on bulb (Although everyone already knows who this belongs to)
Fingernail
Condom Wrapper
Door Stick
Cell Phone
Cell Phone Battery
Bra
vertical blind panels

[JR2007]

Added SOLO items to list below:

Underwear
Knife
Blood Spots A) Light Switch B) Oven Door C) Carpet
Bloody Print on bulb (Although everyone already knows who this belongs to)
Fingernail
Condom Wrapper
Door Stick
Cell Phone
Cell Phone Battery
Bra
vertical blind panels
Overturned table lamp
Liquid substance on table
Candle on the floor
Greeting card on floor by body
Thermostat on/off switch
Location of green sweater
Location of Nona's shoes
[/quote]

[ifIwereU]

When you write Bacon's name as bacon it makes him seem like a real pig,
or is that term not used anymore for cops.
Added to list below:

Underwear
Knife
Blood Spots A) Light Switch B) Oven Door C) Carpet
Bloody Print on bulb (Although everyone already knows who this belongs to)
Fingernail
Condom Wrapper
Door Stick
Cell Phone
Cell Phone Battery
Bra
vertical blind panels

I am in no way trying to be disrespectful to Bacon....I just don't always hit the caps button....but I am sure the term pig is still used quite frequently among certain non-law abiding citizens....when I'm at the donut shop in the morning I'll ask...LOL

[zurichsl]

that any thing you guys are loooking for can be found in the service provider data base in and out going calls text message internet useige and that phone numbers ... and many other thing even recorded failed calles and etc to analyse the evidence of the killing .
plus deleted do you really think that the person has a non prepaid or stollen or registered to some else phone hmmm intresting tought but after that 1.5 inch cut on her neck seems like something different to me i don`t know where was it placed but seems like in a very erotic spot of the neck or even in a deadly spot as a mark i was talking about .
and also she was no details if anyone has been entered in to place with a key or an after market key di anyone check the lock maybe there is anusual mark in it or did she made a copy of the in a not too long pass so can be pre made by some one who was very intresting in her to see her again or anyone has worked down not too long ago and got an extra key from her there is many combination of evidence so basicly everyone knows that i just what are oyu guys are talking about .
also nine years no killings so uhm well hmmm ... that is a few reason why is it there happened the profile of the mind who could matched with one tought
or not ... and not csi member but i mean the last chance would be the one who hasn`t raise there hand`s in scool dosn`t mean that they didn`t had the answer correctly .... it dosen`t mean just because you`re there you imagene me to fitt the best in to your life that is actually me ....

so while there studying us can be safe somehow and somewhere or while there blocking my mind and also blocikng them self out of my mind later can it come back us a hecker to be there some how so until that continous i belive that it will continous so compaire with what i said telll me who were i am ... ~!!:seeya:

[loulou58]

Are we suppose to be able to make heads or tails of that post, because if so I am having a great deal of difficulty doing it!!!!!

[JR2007]

Are we suppose to be able to make heads or tails of that post, because if so I am having a great deal of difficulty doing it!!!!!

Sounds like someone from Jamaica is having difficulty making their point.

[zurichsl]

so explanation about it thank you it dos not make any cent`s to me could be because i am not a christian ... i`m pretty much sure about it ....
i know because you guys are than will tell me what is actually all those about :read:

[FDInLaw]

so explanation about it thank you it dos not make any cent`s to me could be because i am not a christian ... i`m pretty much sure about it ....
i know because you guys are than will tell me what is actually all those about :read:

What? :confused: I have no clue what you are trying to say here.

None the less, welcome to Nona's forum! :seeya:

[FDInLaw]

Morrison testified John Kilbourn, his partner, found a fingernail in the carpet about 4 inches from where Dirksmeyer’s head was located. DNA testing revealed the fingernail belonged to a male that was not Kevin Jones. Morrison said the fingernail was “bitten or torn or bitten and torn” off.
But during cross-examination, he clarified that he did not think the fingernail came off during a struggle with Dirksmeyer. He said he did not know when the fingernail got on the carpet.

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15412&Search=missing%20stick

I wonder if the new investigations has identified the owner of this finger nail??? Sure would like to know if it matched the dna on the condom wrapper.

[JR2007]

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15412&Search=missing%20stick

I wonder if the new investigations has identified the owner of this finger nail??? Sure would like to know if it matched the DNA on the condom wrapper.

I Thought the fingernail that was found turned out to be a non-issue, because it was clipped not torn off.
I don't believe the DNA on the Condom wrapper is going to prove out to be of any benefit. It is only going to point to the fact that the DNA didn't come from KJ. It will rule out certain people but it will not point to anyone definite. I believe that the condom wrapper came from Nona's bed room trash or bathroom trash and was placed on the counter for everyone to see, after her death. It's discovery in the trash was what set KJ off. IMO
They began by arguing, then he hit her with the heal of his hand, leaving no marks on his knuckles whatsoever. He showed us how he likes to hit things with the heal of his hand. I also believe if asked the policeman that had told him to quit hitting the wall at Nona's apartment the evening of the murder, he would tell us that this is the way he hit the wall. Also on 48 hours someone mentioned that the evidence showed that Nona was struck with something like the heal of a hand, very hard. This is how he struck the chair in the interrogation room. This is why she didn't put up much of a struggle, she was dazed by this blow. An he had no evidence of hitting anything with his knuckles. If he was hitting the wall with his fist then there would have been some evidence of this on his knuckles, if not then why even look for evidence of him striking Nona with his fist, since she is much softer then a wall. Sorry got running on.

[lorettalockhorn]

Hey JR! :seeya: Nothing wrong with thinking aloud. I have a tendency at this point to think that the purpose of determining that the DNA wasn't KJ's was to publicly announce that it wasn't KJ's just in time for the 48 Hours segment. Still having a hard time believing that this second investigation is taking quite this much time and am beginning to doubt if the DNA will lead to anything other than speculation.

[FDInLaw]

Hey JR! :seeya: Nothing wrong with thinking aloud. I have a tendency at this point to think that the purpose of determining that the DNA wasn't KJ's was to publicly announce that it wasn't KJ's just in time for the 48 Hours segment. Still having a hard time believing that this second investigation is taking quite this much time and am beginning to doubt if the DNA will lead to anything other than speculation.I share your fears. I wonder if we will hear much of anything if there is not enough evidence to go after someone else. Guess the final statement might come when the case is closed if this is the case. :(

[JR2007]

Hey JR! :seeya: Nothing wrong with thinking aloud. I have a tendency at this point to think that the purpose of determining that the DNA wasn't KJ's was to publicly announce that it wasn't KJ's just in time for the 48 Hours segment. Still having a hard time believing that this second investigation is taking quite this much time and am beginning to doubt if the DNA will lead to anything other than speculation.

I agree 100% with you on this. Robbins has been trying to muddy the water ever since he took the case. His job is/was to make sure KJ had a fair trial not get a murderer off. JMO

[JR2007]

I share your fears. I wonder if we will hear much of anything if there is not enough evidence to go after someone else. Guess the final statement might come when the case is closed if this is the case. :(

I believe, having a new investigation started, was a way for Gibbons to double check himself and cover his ***** later, when people say he went after KJ with tunnel vision. All show and mirrors. JMO:shrug:

[lorettalockhorn]

Meant to say yesterday that I agree with the way you describe Kevin using his palm to strike the chair in the police station. Much has been made of the fact that he didn't have any signs of having been in a fight, but using his palm to strike Nona certainly wouldn't have left any marks on his hands or knuckles.

I think Gibbons did exactly the right thing in asking for and/or supporting a new investigation. 1) There is supposedly new evidence, and 2) he publicly stated that he had tried the killer in court, so for him to carry on would seem prejudicial. Minimally.

It stinks that the trial went so horribly wrong, and I fault the judge in part for not having allowed certain testimony that made it seem that Nona herself was on trial. It stinks that in the months that Gibbons had the evidence for the indictment, he didn't produce a more thorough investigation to begin with.

[ifIwereU]

Meant to say yesterday that I agree with the way you describe Kevin using his palm to strike the chair in the police station. Much has been made of the fact that he didn't have any signs of having been in a fight, but using his palm to strike Nona certainly wouldn't have left any marks on his hands or knuckles.

I think Gibbons did exactly the right thing in asking for and/or supporting a new investigation. 1) There is supposedly new evidence, and 2) he publicly stated that he had tried the killer in court, so for him to carry on would seem prejudicial. Minimally.

It stinks that the trial went so horribly wrong, and I fault the judge in part for not having allowed certain testimony that made it seem that Nona herself was on trial. It stinks that in the months that Gibbons had the evidence for the indictment, he didn't produce a more thorough investigation to begin with.
I personally think gibbons felt he had no choice...I remember seeing the picture in the paper where Bacon and Frost were "handing" the file to the PA for charges....I don't think Gibbons ever felt good about the case or certainly he would not have waited 3 months to file the charges. I don't remember exactly when the PD took the file, but I remember it took ( or seemed to take)a long time for Gibbons to think about the charges and that always concerned me

[FDInLaw]

BUMPING :rose:

[Tile]

Please forgive me as I just recently became aware of this site and I am slowly working my way through the posts here. Thankfully someone, I think Russellvilegal from the dateline site, posted a link to this forum.

I tried to point this out in the dateline thread and only one person caught on, but there was a reference to a greeting card on the couriernews:

Dipert then provided Frost with the receipts, which included the purchase of a birthday card for Dirksmeyer, who died 11 days before her 20th birthday. “I was never really considered a serious suspect by the police, especially after I gave them the receipts,” he said.
He dismissed rumors that he and Dirksmyer had “disputes,” and described his relationship with Dirksmeyer as “distant but cordial.”

Full story: http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15766&Search=Kevin%20Jones

If this isn't the proper place for this message I appologize and hope to further my understanding of the case over the next few weeks.

[lorettalockhorn]

Please forgive me as I just recently became aware of this site and I am slowly working my way through the posts here. Thankfully someone, I think Russellvilegal from the dateline site, posted a link to this forum.

I tried to point this out in the dateline thread and only one person caught on, but there was a reference to a greeting card on the couriernews:

Dipert then provided Frost with the receipts, which included the purchase of a birthday card for Dirksmeyer, who died 11 days before her 20th birthday. “I was never really considered a serious suspect by the police, especially after I gave them the receipts,” he said.
He dismissed rumors that he and Dirksmyer had “disputes,” and described his relationship with Dirksmeyer as “distant but cordial.”

Full story: http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15766&Search=Kevin%20Jones

If this isn't the proper place for this message I appologize and hope to further my understanding of the case over the next few weeks.



:seeya: Are you asking if the greeting card found at the scene is the one that DD purchased? The answer to that is no. It was an older card from Carol; don't know if a specific occasion has ever been mentioned. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

[Tile]

:seeya: Are you asking if the greeting card found at the scene is the one that DD purchased? The answer to that is no. It was an older card from Carol; don't know if a specific occasion has ever been mentioned. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

Yes, I'm over two years late and catching up as fast as I can. My perspective allows me to not assume what others have taken as fact through the rumor channels; however, that also means I do lack some real facts that are also taken for granted. That said, I have read through everything that has been offered on the couriernews website which includes a double glance at the summary of witness testimony.
Anyhow, back on subject, I did come across DD's birthday card reading through the couriernews and recalled that Kevin had touched a greeting card in the Probable Cause Statement and wondered if there was any correlation.

Wamu Bank commercial side note: Whoohoo I just finished post 240/10,475.

[FDInLaw]

Yes, I'm over two years late and catching up as fast as I can. My perspective allows me to not assume what others have taken as fact through the rumor channels; however, that also means I do lack some real facts that are also taken for granted. That said, I have read through everything that has been offered on the couriernews website which includes a double glance at the summary of witness testimony.
Anyhow, back on subject, I did come across DD's birthday card reading through the couriernews and recalled that Kevin had touched a greeting card in the Probable Cause Statement and wondered if there was any correlation.

Wamu Bank commercial side note: Whoohoo I just finished post 240/10,475.
There was no correlation . . . it was testified during the trial that the card was from Carol (as Loretta just stated).

Welcome to the board! :seeya:

[TJEddie]

IIRC, it was noted in Christina's trial notes, and later confirmed by crime scene photos shown on 48 Hours, that there were in fact 2 greeting cards found at the crime scene. Anyone know who the other card was from and where it was found in relation to the body?

[SaraSidle]

Welcome Tile. I am just catching up on this case also

[lorettalockhorn]

There was quite a bit of discussion about the card(s). From 8/8/07:

If I remember correctly, there were two cards. One was by her body, the other was by the mail Janice Jones went through looking for the address.

[FDInLaw]

Tile,

I just bumped another post for you over on the main thread:

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=9098432#post9098432

[Tile]

Tile,

I just bumped another post for you over on the main thread:

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=9098432#post9098432

Thanks FD!


Also thank you for the welcome Fd and Sara. Works been preventing me from doing too much reading over the last week. Hopefully this busy period will be over by the weekend.

[SaraSidle]

Thanks FD!


Also thank you for the welcome Fd and Sara. Works been preventing me from doing too much reading over the last week. Hopefully this busy period will be over by the weekend.

Well Tile I am hoping you will help me learn more also since I just started this one. And I am so glad you are interested. Fresh opinions can be very helpful

[Tile]

Well Tile I am hoping you will help me learn more also since I just started this one. And I am so glad you are interested. Fresh opinions can be very helpful

One thing I've noticed that has helped me immensely is that while I'm reading the main thread posts I'm also reading the courier news around the same dates. It allows me to put the posts in perspective with what is happening as the investigation, trial, and aftermath ensues.

[FDInLaw]

One thing I've noticed that has helped me immensely is that while I'm reading the main thread posts I'm also reading the courier news around the same dates. It allows me to put the posts in perspective with what is happening as the investigation, trial, and aftermath ensues.
Any thoughts??? We need fresh perspectives! :seeya: