The Condom Wrapper. . .

[FDInLaw]

What significance does it hold? With the new dna information and investigation, this question is key. There are numerous theories. Let's explore them here. Please stay on topic, all other issues can be discussed on the main thread.

:seeya:

[CSOKC]

What significance does it hold? With the new dna information and investigation, this question is key. There are numerous theories. Let's explore them here. Please stay on topic, all other issues can be discussed on the main thread.

:seeya:
In my opinion it probably means nothing. If the killer is the person that the DNA belongs to, I highly doubt that they would have left it behind. The only thing possible is that they tore it open with their mouth, and then forgot about DNA being left on it. But I'm happy that it got the investigation going again...just in case.

[FDInLaw]

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.

[CSOKC]

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.
You make some very good points that make complete sense. Kevin finding it a day earlier, or even seeing when he went over that day (at the time of the murder) seem to make the most sense. There is also a possibility that he placed it there at the time of discovery while he was running around doing who knows what. In that case, he could have gotten the wrapper from anywhere.

[FDInLaw]

In my opinion it probably means nothing. If the killer is the person that the DNA belongs to, I highly doubt that they would have left it behind. The only thing possible is that they tore it open with their mouth, and then forgot about DNA being left on it. But I'm happy that it got the investigation going again...just in case.I'm not sure if the wrapper has much to do with what happened or not. It is vital that it is checked out and I am grateful for the work that is being done. For me the owner of the dna is not automatically the "killer" and I find such sentiment asinine. There needs to be more that places that person at the scene, especially during the timeframe of the crime. I'm anxious to know if LE will be able to establish that.

[CSOKC]

I'm not sure if the wrapper has much to do with what happened or not. It is vital that it is checked out and I am grateful for the work that is being done. For me the owner of the dna is not automatically the "killer" and I find such sentiment asinine. There needs to be more that places that person at the scene, especially during the timeframe of the crime. I'm anxious to know if LE will be able to establish that.
It definitely does not automatically make the dna owner the killer. I think people are just getting excited at the possibility that maybe someone is going to have to pay for this horrible crime. I must admit that I got excited at first too, but now I see that there is a bigger possibility that it means very little. There's always the what if though. What if the dna belongs to someone that was cleared mainly due to the fact that they couldn't be placed at her apartment? Believe me, I don't see this as a piece of evidence that could be used alone to convict someone. So, like you, I think that there needs to be more evidence to prove that someone else could have been there at the time of the murder.

[FDInLaw]

You make some very good points that make complete sense. Kevin finding it a day earlier, or even seeing when he went over that day (at the time of the murder) seem to make the most sense. There is also a possibility that he placed it there at the time of discovery while he was running around doing who knows what. In that case, he could have gotten the wrapper from anywhere.In my "Kevin did it" theory, the condom wrapper was most likely planted in an effort to stage a sex crime. What's interesting now, with a dna match (of sorts), this theory may be strengthened or totally discounted. Say the dna is Trey York's. . . good golly, I seriously doubt Kevin would have been lucky enough to stumble on that condom wrapper and plant it. YIKES! However, if the dna is from someone that frequents an area that Kevin might have found a "random" wrapper then this theory will not be discounted IF there is no other evidence found to place the person in the apartment. It all hinges on the identity of the person! This is going to be interesting!

One thing I don't like about the "it was planted" theory is where it was found. . . the kitchen counter really bugs me. If I were planting it to look like a sex crime I would have left it near the body on the floor. That would have made more of a statement to LE. JMO. Really the whole condom wrapper thing is an enigma and I'm hoping that LE will be successful in finding answers.

[guppie]

The "Check everything! Check everything" quote by KJ pops into my mind. That says to me: "Find the wrapper! Find the wrapper!"

as i have said, i believe the wrapper was planted (probably that night at discovery) and maybe, just maybe, the dna will point to someone clearly not in that vicinity at that time. then it will be an indication that it had to have been planted. maybe this wrapper will only incriminate KJ more. wouldn't that be ironic?

[guppie]

It is thought by some that the wrapper is what caused Kevin or a jaded lover to fly into a rage. In the "Killer Kevin" scenario I take issue with WHEN the wrapper must have appeared. Kevin was at Nona's until late the night before, the wrapper did not trigger a reaction then. Nona had an early exam and during the time that she was home before her death she was on the phone and computer. In my mind she was probably eating, taking a shower, doing some last minute studding. It just doesn't seem like a time that she would have another guy over. She was doing other things and with Kevin in town I don't think she would have taken that risk. There just wasn't time for some other guy to come and place it on the counter, leave, and then have Kevin arrive and loses it. If there was a trigger that set Kevin off, I believe it is more likely to be the unanswered call (text?) from Trey York.

It is possible that Kevin did not find the condom wrapper the night before but did in the morning, say it was behind a trash can and he happened upon it in the morning but missed it the night before, in a rage he carried it down stairs to confront Nona. . .

There is an interesting scenario that was posted on the main thread a few days ago. . . something about Kevin finding the condom before the day of the murder and taking it with him. I hope guppie will post her thoughts here.

It will be interesting to know whose dna is on the wrapper and whether or not it was possible for them to be in the apartment that morning.

Just some random thoughts.


well, it took me a minute to find ya'll! ha
yes, i did say that i think jealous bf kevin took the condom wrapper at an earlier time. i will go back and find my exact post.

[FDInLaw]

It definitely does not automatically make the dna owner the killer. I think people are just getting excited at the possibility that maybe someone is going to have to pay for this horrible crime. I must admit that I got excited at first too, but now I see that there is a bigger possibility that it means very little. There's always the what if though. What if the dna belongs to someone that was cleared mainly due to the fact that they couldn't be placed at her apartment? Believe me, I don't see this as a piece of evidence that could be used alone to convict someone. So, like you, I think that there needs to be more evidence to prove that someone else could have been there at the time of the murder.
I hear ya! It's been an emotional rollercoaster!


I'm going to take a break. . . I hope someone will post scenarios that don't involve KJ. We need a fresh look.

[guppie]

ok found it...
my initial instinct was that the condom wrapper was probably found by KJ at Nona's on an earlier date, that he pocketed the wrapper as proof of her having sex outside their relationship, and then retrieved and planted it after the murder just to embellish the scene and take eyes away from him. IMO i don't believe he took it originally for any other reason than to prove she was having sex with someone else, meaning it was just convenient he had it in order to plant. that is really what i have been expecting as far as this wrapper goes. is that what you meant in your quote about "combination?"
i had an ex who fit this profile. he used to take things and hide them from me to use against me later or for leverage or whatever, so i know how that is.

[hawgustusgloop]

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.

[CSOKC]

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.
If I remember correctly the wrapper was a light blue. I went to the trojan site and it seems that there were two options with a light blue box: Trojan-ENZ Lubricated Condoms and Trojan-ENZ Spermicidal Lubricant Condoms. Both could be wrong, but those were the ones that I saw on their website.

[FDInLaw]

If I remember correctly the wrapper was a light blue. I went to the trojan site and it seems that there were two options with a light blue box: Trojan-ENZ Lubricated Condoms and Trojan-ENZ Spermicidal Lubricant Condoms. Both could be wrong, but those were the ones that I saw on their website.
Really? It looked like gold foil to me, or at least that is what I remember. Funny! :o Are there any photos of it on the 48 Hours site???

These are great questions!

[guppie]

Really? It looked like gold foil to me, or at least that is what I remember. Funny! :o Are there any photos of it on the 48 Hours site???

These are great questions!

i think black and gold. i can check on the DVR! i'll be back.

[TJEddie]

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.

[guppie]

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.

[guppie]

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.

i never thought i would be analyzing a condom wrapper on a thread titled "the condom wrapper"

[FDInLaw]

I'll take "green with a gold border" for $500, Alex.
Too funny! :) :)

[sweetgranny]

I'd still like to know exactly what brand/type of condom wrapper it was. They showed it on 48 Hours, but I am not exactly a condom wrapper identification expert.

I suppose there is an outside chance that this condom wrapper would lead back to Kevin somehow. For example, what if the DNA belonged to Jeremy Huggins (I have absolutely NO reason to believe it does)? What if JH knew he threw a condom wrapper away in his bathroom trash can the night before the murder and that Kevin was in his bathroom on the afternoon of Dec. 15? Although, I can't imagine the defense grandstanding over evidence that could lead directly to their client. Still, if Kevin is guilty and he planted that condom wrapper on the counter, there is always the chance this new evidence could backfire on him.

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.:rose:

[FDInLaw]

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.Did you just watch the video??? I expected to be wrong this time around. Hawg has a good eye for details, I don't.

(YIKES! It was CSOKC that made that post. . . see, I'm beyond pathetic lol! :o )

[FDInLaw]

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.:rose: No he can't. All hopes of justice will be dashed and civil suit will be all that's left. :(

[CSOKC]

FD, it's gold, you are correct, oh wise one. may have reddish lettering. hard to tell. i am sure they show more shots. will look.
If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

[guppie]

OK this is just a question....if they find evidence that leads directly back to Kevin, can he be tried again? I thought not.:rose:


nope. not at all on this case.

[CSOKC]

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)
Oh wait, it could also be the Magnum XL Lubricated Condoms. haha, sorry, that's funny.

[FDInLaw]

Yuk! I feel like I'm in a family planning class. . . :rolleyes:

LOL!

So there are two different brands that it could be?

[guppie]

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?

[FDInLaw]

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?
Are you planning on breaking in to homes and ransacking medicine cabinets and night stands??? LMBO!

You are hardcore! :biggrin:

[CSOKC]

that one is a white wrapper with brown letters, unless i'm blind. which one are you looking at? so are we gonna be the sleuths that trace this exact type of condom back to someone with ties to Nona? i don't think i should give us that much credit. what do you think?
I was just going to the trojan website and then clicking on their products. It brought up a little store shelf with all the boxes on it, but I never could see the individual wrappers.

[lorettalockhorn]

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO

[guppie]

I was just going to the trojan website and then clicking on their products. It brought up a little store shelf with all the boxes on it, but I never could see the individual wrappers.

ok, this is only gut and i am no condom expert, but i swear a little thing is kicking in my mind that gold indicates large condoms, like magnum ones. i must have seen one in my lifetime (although i cannot recall a guy to fit that description... cough cough). anyway, just throwing out an idea. there are other brands of condoms like Lifestyles and the ones you get in gas stations or whatever...since youre doing all this research, CSOKC!

[CSOKC]

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO
I think they would have to be in the system. I would assume it's someone that volunteered their DNA since the defense made such a big deal about it. That could be wrong, and actually Kevin would have had to get very lucky to find a wrapper for one of those people. So again, I have no clue.

[CSOKC]

ok, this is only gut and i am no condom expert, but i swear a little thing is kicking in my mind that gold indicates large condoms, like magnum ones. i must have seen one in my lifetime (although i cannot recall a guy to fit that description... cough cough). anyway, just throwing out an idea. there are other brands of condoms like Lifestyles and the ones you get in gas stations or whatever...since youre doing all this research, CSOKC!
I'm thinking it said Trojan though, right?

[FDInLaw]

We need more experts (MEN) on this thread. . .

(LOL!) :D

[guppie]

The one thing that I always go back to is that the DNA donor is in the system. Right? Or is that a bad assumption? That means that he is either a convicted criminal who gave a sample in relation to another crime, or a registered offender, or someone who volunteered DNA in this case. How does any of that fit the condom wrapper actually belonging to the murderer? To me, it simply doesn't.

That the wrapper was found on the kitchen counter is more indicative of it being planted than being a trigger. IMO

my belief is that the wrapper was planted and until i am proven wrong, my thought is that the DNA probably belongs to someone who volunteered DNA in this case, not a random person in CODIS (that is what it's called, isn't it?)

ok ya'll, who has seen a gold (bronzy looking, shiny) condom wrapper before? or, um, at least has a friend who has seen one.

[guppie]

I'm thinking it said Trojan though, right?

i do not see a brand, and it's on my TV screen. it looks like they faded the lettering! whatcha think? like a blur.

[lorettalockhorn]

I think they would have to be in the system. I would assume it's someone that volunteered their DNA since the defense made such a big deal about it. That could be wrong, and actually Kevin would have had to get very lucky to find a wrapper for one of those people. So again, I have no clue.

Kevin's voyeurism could put him in the proximity of condom wrappers belonging to other guys, but I'm going to assume that none of them are in the system or have been cleared as suspects. He wouldn't have had time that day to scrounge for a wrapper, he would just have to stumble across one; perhaps when he was getting rid of his bloody clothers in some unknown dumpster.

But what dumb luck that that DNA would be in the system if the donor is completely innocent and didn't know Nona, let alone have a relationship with her. What if the donor is a registered offender, but was found to be in Oklahoma (for instance) that day.

Is it possible that Nona did know someone who is in the system and he had access to her apartment?

[FDInLaw]

i do not see a brand, and it's on my TV screen. it looks like they faded the lettering! whatcha think? like a blur.
I don't remember seeing an actual brand name. . . sure wish we could get a photo of it to post here!

[guppie]

We need more experts (MEN) on this thread. . .

(LOL!) :D

i am seriously calling people(men). scare me!
i really think they faded the lettering on the wrapper. you can't make out a label. it reminds me of how they fade brands in certain shows. i would think they would probably do that here. i don't know the legalities of this type of thing. either they may have faded it not to give away to much info to the public or the manufacturer may have requested so. ideas?

[FDInLaw]

Loretta found a brand with an orange package. . . not quite a match though.

:D

[guppie]

I don't remember seeing an actual brand name. . . sure wish we could get a photo of it to post here!

i could take a photo of the one on the tv screen and upload it. that sounds crazy. but i don't know how to post it...can you even do that? i didn't know you could attach things. ok, i am off on a tangent here.

best description is shiny gold, almost bronzy-looking. the lettering is faded (blurred out?) and under the fade, it looks reddish. when they fade brands on things, does it show the color of the actual lettering in the blur? i mean, if the blur looks reddish, would the lettering necessarily be red?

[guppie]

here's a site that shows all kinds of brands and wrappers
http://www.keepcondom.com

[guppie]

oh, crap. i may have been onto something earlier with the magnum assumption. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(condoms)

The manufacturer offers several varieties, each featuring a unique combination of texture, lubrication, and construction material.

Magnums are a specific brand of latex condom manufactured under the Trojan brand name. While they are marketed as a better fit for larger penises, Magnums are actually only 1/4" longer and 1/8" wider than standard condoms. Most standard condoms are designed with measurements of 7 3/4" length, 1 3/8" width, while Magnums measure 8" length, 1 1/2" width. The brand is highly recognizable due to its metallic-gold wrapper.

[lorettalockhorn]

i could take a photo of the one on the tv screen and upload it. that sounds crazy. but i don't know how to post it...can you even do that? i didn't know you could attach things. ok, i am off on a tangent here.

best description is shiny gold, almost bronzy-looking. the lettering is faded (blurred out?) and under the fade, it looks reddish. when they fade brands on things, does it show the color of the actual lettering in the blur? i mean, if the blur looks reddish, would the lettering necessarily be red?

Guppy, to post a screencap, you have to download to a sharing site, like photobucket, then post the URL here.

[FDInLaw]

oh, crap. i may have been onto something earlier with the magnum assumption. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_(condoms)

The manufacturer offers several varieties, each featuring a unique combination of texture, lubrication, and construction material.

Magnums are a specific brand of latex condom manufactured under the Trojan brand name. While they are marketed as a better fit for larger penises, Magnums are actually only 1/4" longer and 1/8" wider than standard condoms. Most standard condoms are designed with measurements of 7 3/4" length, 1 3/8" width, while Magnums measure 8" length, 1 1/2" width. The brand is highly recognizable due to its metallic-gold wrapper.Oh my. . . I've created a monster! Started this thread to talk theory and here we are talking dimensions!!!:chicken: :chicken:

Guess I was lacking condom sense! :biggrin:

[CSOKC]

Oh my. . . I've created a monster! Started this thread to talk theory and here we are talking dimensions!!!:chicken: :chicken:

Guess I was lacking condom sense! :biggrin:
So true! Back to theory though, do we know who all volunteered dna for the case? That would be helpful information for discussion.

[guppie]

Guppy, to post a screencap, you have to download to a sharing site, like photobucket, then post the URL here.

i have pics in photobucket so i am familiar. so are you telling me i should try to take a pic? oh lawdy! i have to leave for a while, but i will return and work on that later. did you see wikipedia re: "gold wrapper?" frankly, i'm disturbed that i would have recognized that from my past. ugh

[guppie]

Oh my. . . I've created a monster! Started this thread to talk theory and here we are talking dimensions!!!:chicken: :chicken:

Guess I was lacking condom sense! :biggrin:


oh, aren't you cute! "condom sense!" too funny:D

[FDInLaw]

So true! Back to theory though, do we know who all volunteered dna for the case? That would be helpful information for discussion.
Original suspects???

:shrug:

[guppie]

Oh my. . . I've created a monster! Started this thread to talk theory and here we are talking dimensions!!!:chicken: :chicken:

Guess I was lacking condom sense! :biggrin:


sry, wasn't trying to talk dimensions, but rather the color of the wrapper is that particular size. i am not saying size matters (that's another conversation). i mean, not that the wrapper's owner was "large" per se. some guys at that age just like to buy that size to appear so.
so back to the gold COLOR! this particular color and brand could narrow it down. surely anyone who had been with Nona would recognize this wrapper. seems to me, anyway?

[guppie]

Original suspects???

:shrug:

the police didn't ever release that info, did they?

[FDInLaw]

the police didn't ever release that info, did they?
Well, from the trial and witness lists we know of a few.

[CSOKC]

the police didn't ever release that info, did they?
Original suspects? Or the people that volunteered DNA?

[hawgustusgloop]

Is it just me, or was the wrapper rectangular in shape? The Trojan condoms I've seen come in a square-shaped wrapper.

[FDInLaw]

If it's gold with red lettering then that would make it ultra ribbed with spermicidal lubricant. (According to the box on the website.)

Oh wait, it could also be the Magnum XL Lubricated Condoms. haha, sorry, that's funny.
Were you able to find pictures of these wrappers???

[CSOKC]

Were you able to find pictures of these wrappers???
I did actually. Guppie was right about the first one being white with brown letters. The magnums all seem to have gold wrappers, but I couldn't find one with red lettering anywhere.

[FDInLaw]

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:CGkgKZ_cpa4TMM:http://www.inkycircus.com/jargon/images/condoms.jpg

http://hotlists.hotornot.com/Style-g21516-Trojan-Magnum-Condoms.html

http://www.minimus.biz/images/P07-0124102-1004bg.jpg

http://www.condom-of-the-month-club.com/images/condoms.jpg

[guppie]

I did actually. Guppie was right about the first one being white with brown letters. The magnums all seem to have gold wrappers, but I couldn't find one with red lettering anywhere.

i don't see any red lettering on these wrappers either. i think maybe that was part of the blur to throw us off. just an idea. anyway, i did take some photos of the wrapper while on still on my DVR.
i was actually at the store a while ago and walked right by condoms. i almost went and broke open a box! i swear. i am going over to photobucket now.

[guppie]

these are the links to the 2 photos of the wrapper. the first one is close up, showing the reddish blur. the second is farther away, showing the gold color of the wrapper better than the first. i think this gold wrapper is distinct to the magnum type. correct me if you find something else that resembles it.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg255/guppie29/wrappercloseup.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg255/guppie29/wrapper.jpg

[FDInLaw]

Take a look at the first photo I posted.

Thanks. . . that is what I remembered! No visible markings.

[FDInLaw]

these are the links to the 2 photos of the wrapper. the first one is close up, showing the reddish blur. the second is farther away, showing the gold color of the wrapper better than the first. i think this gold wrapper is distinct to the magnum type. correct me if you find something else that resembles it.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg255/guppie29/wrappercloseup.jpg

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg255/guppie29/wrapper.jpg
So. . . (pregnant pause). . . I guess we are waiting for confirmation that this is in fact a photo of the condom wrapper found on Nona's kitchen counter?

[FDInLaw]

Again, I find the placement of the condom bizarre here. It would have been more convincing if the wrapper was found near the body on the floor, had blood on it or some circumstance that screamed that it was part of what went down when Nona was murdered. In my mind, the biggest hole this scenario has is lack of other evidence. . . it will be interesting to see if LE can place the owner of the dna there in the apartment with other physical evidence (or heck, even circumstantial). Nona died as a result of a very brutal attack, I find it hard to believe that the attacker left a wrapper yet was so careful not to leave any other signs of his presence. All it takes is one hair found on Nona's clothes.

It is possible that the attack started in the kitchen area. A defense expert testified that he thought the knife wounds were made from behind while Nona was standing up IIRC. If this happened next to the counter it makes sense. One would think there would be drops of blood on the carpet there though. Huh. Was there blood found by the counter? On the floor or wall? Just thinking out loud here.

Ugh. Guess everything comes down to the investigation that is going on now. . . as much as I hate waiting, I'm sure glad it is underway!

[CSOKC]

It is possible that the attack started in the kitchen area. A defense expert testified that he thought the knife wounds were made from behind while Nona was standing up IIRC. If this happened next to the counter it makes sense. One would think there would be drops of blood on the carpet there though. Huh. Was there blood found by the counter? On the floor or wall? Just thinking out loud here.

As far as I can remember there was blood on the oven, the light switch by the kitchen(?) and the carpet in the living room. If I'm remembering correctly, and there was blood on the light switch by the kitchen, would that have been by the front door? Or located in the living room?

[guppie]

Again, I find the placement of the condom bizarre here. It would have been more convincing if the wrapper was found near the body on the floor, had blood on it or some circumstance that screamed that it was part of what went down when Nona was murdered. In my mind, the biggest hole this scenario has is lack of other evidence. . . it will be interesting to see if LE can place the owner of the dna there in the apartment with other physical evidence (or heck, even circumstantial). Nona died as a result of a very brutal attack, I find it hard to believe that the attacker left a wrapper yet was so careful not to leave any other signs of his presence. All it takes is one hair found on Nona's clothes.

It is possible that the attack started in the kitchen area. A defense expert testified that he thought the knife wounds were made from behind while Nona was standing up IIRC. If this happened next to the counter it makes sense. One would think there would be drops of blood on the carpet there though. Huh. Was there blood found by the counter? On the floor or wall? Just thinking out loud here.

Ugh. Guess everything comes down to the investigation that is going on now. . . as much as I hate waiting, I'm sure glad it is underway!

well, as wrong or right as it may be, i do go back to my initial gut instinct (as if you don't know that about me). that says to me: that wrapper was so out of place up there on the kitchen counter! i mean, i recognized that dang magnum type of wrapper (scare me) and i ain't never seen a wrapper on a counter in my life! once again: still not a condom expert. i am not saying there is "no way" that it was left there by accident, but it sure seems unlikely to me. it was so out of place. i am going on what my instinct which says the wrapper was placed there, in that spot, intentionally.

[guppie]

As far as I can remember there was blood on the oven, the light switch by the kitchen(?) and the carpet in the living room. If I'm remembering correctly, and there was blood on the light switch by the kitchen, would that have been by the front door? Or located in the living room?


please review me real quick on the DNA testing. were DNA samples taken from any of those blood spots you mention? i thought there was, and that it was only Nona's DNA found. please advise. (tiggergreen says there weren't samples for DNA taken fromn this places, and i would really love to call him out on that.)

[CSOKC]

please review me real quick on the DNA testing. were DNA samples taken from any of those blood spots you mention? i thought there was, and that it was only Nona's DNA found. please advise. (tiggergreen says there weren't samples for DNA taken fromn this places, and i would really love to call him out on that.)
As far as I know, he's right. They took the scrapings but I don't think they ever tested for DNA.

[guppie]

As far as I know, he's right. They took the scrapings but I don't think they ever tested for DNA.

hindsight. ugh. anyway, do you think those pics in 48 hrs are of the real wrapper or a mockup?

[CSOKC]

hindsight. ugh. anyway, do you think those pics in 48 hrs are of the real wrapper or a mockup?
The knife and the condom wrapper all seemed too close together. I am leaning towards a mockup. Honestly though I think I'm losing my memory...I can't even remember if they found the knife that was used. Or if they did, was it Nona's knife?

[hawgustusgloop]

The knife and the condom wrapper all seemed too close together. I am leaning towards a mockup. Honestly though I think I'm losing my memory...I can't even remember if they found the knife that was used. Or if they did, was it Nona's knife?

I thought they found a knife that was believed to be Nona's, but I don't think they knew for sure it was the one that caused the wounds.

[FDInLaw]

please review me real quick on the DNA testing. were DNA samples taken from any of those blood spots you mention? i thought there was, and that it was only Nona's DNA found. please advise. (tiggergreen says there weren't samples for DNA taken fromn this places, and i would really love to call him out on that.)"Terry Rolfe, head of the crime lab’s DNA testing section, told the jury several blood samples taken from the crime scene were submitted for DNA testing. All of the samples, which included scrapings from a floor lamp alleged to be the murder weapon, were found to have belonged to Dirksmeyer. "

http://www.couriernews.com/archived_story.php?ID=15380&Search=kevin%20jones

[FDInLaw]

The knife and the condom wrapper all seemed too close together. I am leaning towards a mockup. Honestly though I think I'm losing my memory...I can't even remember if they found the knife that was used. Or if they did, was it Nona's knife?I'm still searching for more on the knife. . . gonna take a break. . . my head is killing me. (Someone send CHOCOLATE!). :(

[CSOKC]

jonikay
Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 355


burn pile . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're right, lo. There is probably a handful of relevant evidence sitting in a burn pile somewhere (dover, perhaps . . . that was a joke . . . sort of) with such things as the door stick, the cell battery, the actual condom (although I think the condom as a whole was just planted evidence), and possibly another weapon. Of course, I believe that the lamp base was the primary weapon used in the attack. I also believe that the possible other weapon is unconventional. It was probably something that was already sitting in the apartment, something small that was easy to carry out along with the other stuff. I assume, due to what the coroner stated about the autopsy and what I remember reading, that the cut through her throat was probably not even close to being consistent with a knife, or they never would have said that they didn't think it was a knife. And, for all we know, it may be sharp force trauma with a slash in our minds, but more of a gash to the experts.

I just found this old post by jonikay. I'm going to keep looking though because this didnt answer the question at hand. I just thought it was interesting.

[hawgustusgloop]

jonikay
Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 355


burn pile . . .

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're right, lo. There is probably a handful of relevant evidence sitting in a burn pile somewhere (dover, perhaps . . . that was a joke . . . sort of) with such things as the door stick, the cell battery, the actual condom (although I think the condom as a whole was just planted evidence), and possibly another weapon. Of course, I believe that the lamp base was the primary weapon used in the attack. I also believe that the possible other weapon is unconventional. It was probably something that was already sitting in the apartment, something small that was easy to carry out along with the other stuff. I assume, due to what the coroner stated about the autopsy and what I remember reading, that the cut through her throat was probably not even close to being consistent with a knife, or they never would have said that they didn't think it was a knife. And, for all we know, it may be sharp force trauma with a slash in our minds, but more of a gash to the experts.

I just found this old post by jonikay. I'm going to keep looking though because this didnt answer the question at hand. I just thought it was interesting.

Wow, that is interesting. I completely forgot about that. I wonder what could have been used to cut her?

[guppie]

The knife and the condom wrapper all seemed too close together. I am leaning towards a mockup. Honestly though I think I'm losing my memory...I can't even remember if they found the knife that was used. Or if they did, was it Nona's knife?


i did look at that when i watched it because i wanted to see if the wrapper and knife were near one another for the "same photo opp." once i really looked, i think they were shown separately and away from one another. i will go have a look-see for ya though. i have been wrong before.

[guppie]

I thought they found a knife that was believed to be Nona's, but I don't think they knew for sure it was the one that caused the wounds.

i think that is correct. i think they saw a knife but did not determine if it was used to make the wounds or who the knife actually belonged to. i mean, when i was in college i had a hodgepodge of flatware and dishes from all sorts of places.

[guppie]

ok, confirmed what i thought. there was a ripped off piece of package (like something from a packaged sauce) that was on the same section of counter as the knife they showed. i do not see that the wrapper was on the same section of counter as the knife, but if anyone sees differently, please let me know. the wrapper could have been on the other side of the stove or on the opposite counter from the knife. i don't know the kitchen layout. so from what i see, 48 hrs probably didn't just place mockups together on a counter for a photo opp. could be the real thing. my point being that if it was in fact a mockup, they would probably just go ahead and place them together. what do ya'll think? i think the photo of the gold wrapper may be the real deal.

are ya'll going around asking who used magnum condoms around that date? if this person saw that photo on 48 hrs, and it is legit, i bet their heart is about to jump out thinking this may get pinned on them.

[FDInLaw]

ok, confirmed what i thought. there was a ripped off piece of package (like something from a packaged sauce) that was on the same section of counter as the knife they showed. i do not see that the wrapper was on the same section of counter as the knife, but if anyone sees differently, please let me know. the wrapper could have been on the other side of the stove or on the opposite counter from the knife. i don't know the kitchen layout. so from what i see, 48 hrs probably didn't just place mockups together on a counter for a photo opp. could be the real thing. my point being that if it was in fact a mockup, they would probably just go ahead and place them together. what do ya'll think? i think the photo of the gold wrapper may be the real deal.

are ya'll going around asking who used magnum condoms around that date? if this person saw that photo on 48 hrs, and it is legit, i bet their heart is about to jump out thinking this may get pinned on them.
Huh? I must of missed something. . . it didn't look like a Magnum package to me. :shrug:

[guppie]

Huh? I must of missed something. . . it didn't look like a Magnum package to me. :shrug:

seriously? i think the gold wrapper (not the box) is indicative of the Trojan Magnum type, and i put a link to confirm. hmmm does this mean i need to start calling my male friends who i assume have a big....? ugh

[ifIwereU]

i do not see a brand, and it's on my TV screen. it looks like they faded the lettering! whatcha think? like a blur.

My recollection from trial was that the condom wrapper did not have a brand name only an expiration date and a lot #......I can't remember exactly but it seems like it was possibly a brand that is sold in gas station restrooms or given out at rauchy clubs...I think I'm right on that...

[guppie]

My recollection from trial was that the condom wrapper did not have a brand name only an expiration date and a lot #......I can't remember exactly but it seems like it was possibly a brand that is sold in gas station restrooms or given out at rauchy clubs...I think I'm right on that...


wow, can you confirm that? is there an article or notes from the trial? maybe christina can finally find her notes.

[jonikay]

Just NOW looking over trial notes. Realize that during defense opening statements, they said that no other person was tested by the state for dna except kj. So if anyone else's dna was on the condom wrapper, it would have either had to match to someone in the system or someone else would have had to come in or volunteer their dna. I would not be surprised, honestly, if it was someone from RPD considering they had sticky fingers during the crime scene analysis, ie phone, knife and other things said to have moved by looking at pics.

[guppie]

Just NOW looking over trial notes. Realize that during defense opening statements, they said that no other person was tested by the state for dna except kj. So if anyone else's dna was on the condom wrapper, it would have either had to match to someone in the system or someone else would have had to come in or volunteer their dna. I would not be surprised, honestly, if it was someone from RPD considering they had sticky fingers during the crime scene analysis, ie phone, knife and other things said to have moved by looking at pics.

confused? it was DNA that was identified, not fingerprints. why would KJ's attorney refer to the DNA as linked to a "viable suspect" if it was a police officer's DNA?

[jonikay]

I was just thinking out loud. Based on what was stated at trial, no other person was tested for na except kj. This means that they had to call people back in to test unless this person was already in the system. Forget what I said about rpd dna, that is a long shot but I believe alot of suckers would be losing their jobs if they tested dna on all things moved during crime scene analysis. The phone was moved and no one would fess up to it. If they tested the rpd, their greasy prints would be on a lot of things that they shouldn't be on. Have you caught what the defense does? SMOKESCREEN, constant. They did it right before trial with Jeremy Martin, nothing at all came of it and they did it again right before 48 hours with the condom. They were able to sway 48 hours production to show kj in a good light.

[guppie]

I was just thinking out loud. Based on what was stated at trial, no other person was tested for na except kj. This means that they had to call people back in to test unless this person was already in the system. Forget what I said about rpd dna, that is a long shot but I believe alot of suckers would be losing their jobs if they tested dna on all things moved during crime scene analysis. The phone was moved and no one would fess up to it. If they tested the rpd, their greasy prints would be on a lot of things that they shouldn't be on. Have you caught what the defense does? SMOKESCREEN, constant. They did it right before trial with Jeremy Martin, nothing at all came of it and they did it again right before 48 hours with the condom. They were able to sway 48 hours production to show kj in a good light.

HA. well, then KJ sure caused their plan to backfire...own worst enemy #1. IMO

[guppie]

back to the wrapper before FD has our butts in the morning! :)
i think you are meaning fingerprints rather than DNA...just trying to get what you're saying.

[jonikay]

NNOOOOOO! Defense stated that NO ONE else was tested for dna except for suspect numero uno. This means that the dna on the condom wrapper had to match to someone they either 1) brought in or 2) had in their system. Also, I don't know the guidelines on the defense bringing an outside person in for testing. I would possibly naively assume that they can't do that. Maybe the special prosecutor was brought in to call people for dna samples. Please tell me what is confusing you.

[lorettalockhorn]

Then I'm thinking that the DNA was already on record. The defense, or anyone else wouldn't know who to compel to be tested. Or who to ask for a DNA sample. (Does that make sense?) In other words, there would have to be some reason to suspect that a certain person was a suspect other than the DNA to convince the judge to issue a warrant for a DNA test.

[jonikay]

So are you thinking a criminal or someone linked to the case already. Should the defense know whether or not a person is a viable suspect?

[lorettalockhorn]

The only other alternative that I can think of right offhand, would be if the DNA is a close enough match to Kevin's that it implicates a relative of his.

[lorettalockhorn]

So are you thinking a criminal or someone linked to the case already. Should the defense know whether or not a person is a viable suspect?

How can it be someone linked to the case already if no one else was tested? (In other words, how would the defense know if none of the other suspects' DNA is on file?)

[jonikay]

So, really, what do you make of this? Defense recognizes that the dna was not a match to kj. Do you think that a smoke screen has been set up where the defense possibly does not know whether or not they have a viable suspect at this point?

[jonikay]

How can it be someone linked to the case already if no one else was tested? (In other words, how would the defense know if none of the other suspects' DNA is on file?)
If someone linked has a record. Are we on the same page here? Thinking along the same lines?

[lorettalockhorn]

I guess since it isn't logical that the defense could just go to the special prosecutor or judge and compel people at random to provide DNA samples without something else to make them suspect, then it has to be someone convicted earlier.

I mean how would they know whose DNA to ask for? Throw names at the wall and see what stuck?

I have a hard time imagining that Nona was friendly with someone who was a convicted offender. And I truly believe that the killer knew her and had a grudge against her.

[lorettalockhorn]

If someone linked has a record. Are we on the same page here? Thinking along the same lines?

Well, I'm sure Nona knew people with "records", and some linked to the case. But someone whose DNA is in the registry? Doesn't make sense to me.

[jonikay]

I know what you're saying. To me, it just echoes the smokescreening that the defense has played the whole time. Now, if Bubba has a record, as he's been in trouble in the past, maybe it's his dna. In that case, wow.

[lorettalockhorn]

I know what you're saying. To me, it just echoes the smokescreening that the defense has played the whole time. Now, if Bubba has a record, as he's been in trouble in the past, maybe it's his dna. In that case, wow.

Isn't he primarily a drinker and a doper (based on the Courthouse News and what I've heard on my scanner)? How would his DNA get into the registry?

And if Nona knew someone who was in the registry, wouldn't Kevin have or someone have known about it and reported it way back when?

[jonikay]

Scanner, haha. Wish I had one. For real. Bubba dna just a thought, based my thinking that Nona did not have real condomesque contact with anyone with dna in a system. Do you think a suspect from way back when was called back to give a sample? I still think the defense dna parade is a put-on. I may be wrong, but I think that there is not another viable suspect at this time.

[lorettalockhorn]

Scanner, haha. Wish I had one. For real. Bubba dna just a thought, based my thinking that Nona did not have real condomesque contact with anyone with dna in a system. Do you think a suspect from way back when was called back to give a sample? I still think the defense dna parade is a put-on. I may be wrong, but I think that there is not another viable suspect at this time.

Would people just volunteer, knowing fully well that the wrapper could very well be a plant? On what grounds would the defense be able to force someone to give a sample at this point?

[jonikay]

I don't think they have any grounds. I think the defense has no idea about the dna. With kj's being the only dna submitted up until the trial, they can't know. And helk no, no one is going to volunteer. But if they did volunteer, they wouldn't be going to the defense to submit a sample, so the defense would still be in the dark.

[loulou58]

I will not believe they have a "dna match" or a "viable suspect" until I see it myself. The investigators have drug their feet from day one and nothing has changed IMO. It almost seems that they are telling what they think people want to hear. IMO

[ifIwereU]

wow, can you confirm that? is there an article or notes from the trial? maybe christina can finally find her notes.

if I am wrong...christina will correct me, but she can't find her notes and I didn't take any...what I posted is what I retained in my memory from the trial.....hence the caveat "I think I'm right"

[lorettalockhorn]

I will not believe they have a "dna match" or a "viable suspect" until I see it myself. The investigators have drug their feet from day one and nothing has changed IMO. It almost seems that they are telling what they think people want to hear. IMO

We don't really know how long McQuary has been working on the case, so it's hard to complain about the length of the investigation. I'm sure that's he is hamstringed by any number of things, such as working from out of town AND the mysterious leak of information to CBS as well as the defense's ongoing efforts to realize “Justice for Kevin Jones,".

[ifIwereU]

We don't really know how long McQuary has been working on the case, so it's hard to complain about the length of the investigation. I'm sure that's he is hamstringed by any number of things, such as working from out of town AND the mysterious leak of information to CBS as well as the defense's ongoing efforts to realize “Justice for Kevin Jones,".


he was also a special pros on the WEst Memphis Shooting of the 12 year old kid.....

[guppie]

NNOOOOOO! Defense stated that NO ONE else was tested for dna except for suspect numero uno. This means that the dna on the condom wrapper had to match to someone they either 1) brought in or 2) had in their system. Also, I don't know the guidelines on the defense bringing an outside person in for testing. I would possibly naively assume that they can't do that. Maybe the special prosecutor was brought in to call people for dna samples. Please tell me what is confusing you.

did anyone willingly submit to DNA testing during questioning other than KJ? it showed RPD interviewing a few men in the interrog. room. could those guys have cooperated with a little swab that day??? is the spec prosec asking for DNA tests for all original suspects?

[FDInLaw]

The condom wrapper may prove to be the most valuable piece of physical evidence in this case. Bumping for discussion.

[SaraSidle]

bumping

I forgot I know the wrapper was found and supposedly has 2 types of dna on it but what about the condom itself? was it ever located? sara

[FDInLaw]

I forgot I know the wrapper was found and supposedly has 2 types of dna on it but what about the condom itself? was it ever located? sara

LE pulled the toilets out of the wall, but the actually condom was never found. Both Gary and Nona's dna was found on the wrapper.

[SaraSidle]

LE pulled the toilets out of the wall, but the actually condom was never found. Both Gary and Nona's dna was found on the wrapper.

That is what I remembered FDI thanks tons sara