Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6)

[Chocoholic]

While our admins and moderators are cleaning up, here's number 6.

Freshly painted walls, new carpet, furniture all cleaned and the bathrooms have been redone.

The kitchen is fully stocked, feel free to have a cup of coffee, tea, juice or whatever other libation would serve you well. Let's discuss the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

[fairmaiden]

O/T .... Boy, I am SUCH a homer .... lol. I watched the Bills-Patriots game to the bitter end .... While I'm a dedicated BILLS fan .... the Patriots are the "elite" of the league ....

Luke .... I believe it was you, who mentioned something in the previous thread about the possibility of Natalee being in drug rehab. without Beth knowing about it. I would say that would be virtually impossible. Sadly, being familiar with drug rehabs .... they usually encourage heavy family involvement .... family encouragement, etc. Plus the fact, they usually involve a person being there for quite a period of time. I would think she SHORTEST time one could be there would be 30 days .... some last much longer .... at least a year.

The first thing I thought about when I heard about this, and I DO realize it's a rumor, was .... IF it's true .... it IS inconceivable that Natalee would be sent on this type of trip, especially without any supervision.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

I know this is speculation, but is it possible that she was in detox for a few days or a week. This, at least where I live, would not require any involvement of family and as a matter of fact would be considered patient confidentiality if she were 16 or older.

Just wondering :shrug:

[fairmaiden]

I know this is speculation, but is it possible that she was in detox for a few days or a week. This, at least where I live, would not require any involvement of family and as a matter of fact would be considered patient confidentiality if she were 16 or older.

Just wondering :shrug:

Hmmmmm, Choco .... I'm really not sure about that. I would think "detox" would be different than rehab. I suppose it's a possibility. "Detox" is just that (detoxification). I'm thinking IF this involved Natalee, she was considered a minor in Alabama, so I'm not sure how that would work.

I definitely know, in rehab, in NY State anyway .... they definitely encourage family involvement/support, etc. Detox COULD be a different thing though.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Hmmmmm, Choco .... I'm really not sure about that. I would think "detox" would be different than rehab. I suppose it's a possibility. "Detox" is just that (detoxification). I'm thinking IF this involved Natalee, she was considered a minor in Alabama, so I'm not sure how that would work.

I definitely know, in rehab, in NY State anyway .... they definitely encourage family involvement/support, etc. Detox COULD be a different thing though.

JMO

Detox may or may not involve therapists, depending on how busy they are. Detox may or may not require extra medication to detox. Detox because, of doctor/patient confidentiality laws in the US may or may not require the parents to be notified. I do not know, somebody with greater legal knowledge, please feel free to advise.

From what I understand though of US law is that if a person is 18 or older, and the person wishes to remain unknown and anonymous to even his/her parents, and the even if FBI knows who and where this person is even if on the "missing persons" list, the FBI is under the obligation to ensure that that person's identity and location is not compromised.

Something about privacy laws, don't know too much about it.... Anybody?

[JustMyOpinion]

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands.html

National Geographic, Destinations Rated: Islands
Text by Jonathan B. Tourtellot
SNIP:Guide to the Scores:
0-25: Catastrophic: all criteria very negative, outlook grim.
26-49: In serious trouble.
50-65: In moderate trouble: all criteria medium-negative or a mix of negatives and positives.
66-85: Minor difficulties.
86-95: Authentic, unspoiled, and likely to remain so.
96-100: Enhanced

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands_caribbean.html#99
SNIP:Aruba
Score: 48
"Massive development of high-rise hotels on the west end results in serious traffic congestion. Also heavy dependence for hotel workers on expatriate labor. Cruise ships have resulted in a tacky downtown."

"The high-rise hotels lining Palm Beach are a good way of maximizing bodies on a beach while minimally impacting the island's interior. Vast majority of islanders are employed by tourism and know it's their bread and butter. The attitude towards visitors is genuinely warm and inviting. The Arikok National Park appears to be well-protected."

"Very little aesthetic appeal. The island has become almost exclusively a sand, sun, sea, and casino experience. Tourists are not educated on the ecological and/or historical elements of the destination."

"There's no 'there' there."

[Chocoholic]

Which is why it is illegal to drive any type of vehicle on the beaches without permission (which is what timmy miller and//or crew did) and it is illegal to dig up turtle nests (which is what timmy miller and/or crew are strongly suspected to have done).

I also doubt that draining that pond to find Natalee did anything to enhance the bird sanctuary.

No links available to my memory or opinion.

[fairmaiden]

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands.html

National Geographic, Destinations Rated: Islands
Text by Jonathan B. Tourtellot
SNIP:Guide to the Scores:
0-25: Catastrophic: all criteria very negative, outlook grim.
26-49: In serious trouble.
50-65: In moderate trouble: all criteria medium-negative or a mix of negatives and positives.
66-85: Minor difficulties.
86-95: Authentic, unspoiled, and likely to remain so.
96-100: Enhanced

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands_caribbean.html#99
SNIP:Aruba
Score: 48
"Massive development of high-rise hotels on the west end results in serious traffic congestion. Also heavy dependence for hotel workers on expatriate labor. Cruise ships have resulted in a tacky downtown."

"The high-rise hotels lining Palm Beach are a good way of maximizing bodies on a beach while minimally impacting the island's interior. Vast majority of islanders are employed by tourism and know it's their bread and butter. The attitude towards visitors is genuinely warm and inviting. The Arikok National Park appears to be well-protected."

"Very little aesthetic appeal. The island has become almost exclusively a sand, sun, sea, and casino experience. Tourists are not educated on the ecological and/or historical elements of the destination."

"There's no 'there' there."

Interesting article, JMO. Definitely not surprising, to me anyway. Their bread and butter is tourism, and I think you find all or most of the negatives you see in Aruba in OTHER places .... probably even in the US. Just quickly looking through, I saw Cozumel - Grand Cayman - Jamaica -Roatan, Bay Islands - St. Martin, fall under the same "scoring category".

I see National Geographic didn't mention the "kidnap, murder and rape of Natalee Holloway" as being a detriment to people visiting Aruba. I wonder if the majority of people who actually travel there are interested in being educated on the ecological and/or historical elements of the destination ...?? I certainly doubt the graduates of MB were interested in it .... don't you ??

It is what it is, JMO .... a "tourist trap", IMO .... just like many other places. Since they are majorly impacted by tourism, that was one of the actions I criticized .... a call for a boycott, which had the potential of hurting many innocent people. Luckily, I don't believe it did.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Their bread and butter is tourism, and I think you find all or most of the negatives you see in Aruba in OTHER places ....
JMO

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm

[fairmaiden]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm

JMO .... As I have stated recently, I have never had the inclination to visit Aruba. Do you believe Aruba was researched at all, before deciding it would be the destination for the MB graduates ?? MB had apparently made this trip to Aruba available to their graduates for a few years before Natalee went. As I recall, it was Jug's son who had made the trip a couple of years before .... who, as I recall, specifically warned Beth about the easy availability of drugs, by those standing outside C&C's.

I believe Aruba was chosen, because the legal drinking age is 18 .... and MB was able to send their "minors" at home to a foreign country where they could have alcohol available to them, endlessly.

I'm not an advocate for Aruba .... but it apparently was where MB sent their graduates.

I wonder where they're sending their graduates now ??

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

JMO .... As I have stated recently, I have never had the inclination to visit Aruba. Do you believe Aruba was researched at all, before deciding it would be the destination for the MB graduates ??

JMO

I don't know who decided on the destination or what kind of research was done prior to selecting it.

[terrysdoor]

JMO .... As I have stated recently, I have never had the inclination to visit Aruba. Do you believe Aruba was researched at all, before deciding it would be the destination for the MB graduates ?? MB had apparently made this trip to Aruba available to their graduates for a few years before Natalee went. As I recall, it was Jug's son who had made the trip a couple of years before .... who, as I recall, specifically warned Beth about the easy availability of drugs, by those standing outside C&C's.

I believe Aruba was chosen, because the legal drinking age is 18 .... and MB was able to send their "minors" at home to a foreign country where they could have alcohol available to them, endlessly.

I'm not an advocate for Aruba .... but it apparently was where MB sent their graduates.

I wonder where they're sending their graduates now ??

JMO

IIRC in her book Beth said Matt went to Puerto Rico so maybe that is where they go now IMO

[AMS80]

Hmmmmm, Choco .... I'm really not sure about that. I would think "detox" would be different than rehab. I suppose it's a possibility. "Detox" is just that (detoxification). I'm thinking IF this involved Natalee, she was considered a minor in Alabama, so I'm not sure how that would work.

I definitely know, in rehab, in NY State anyway .... they definitely encourage family involvement/support, etc. Detox COULD be a different thing though.

JMO

I have definitely just changed my opinion of Natalee...she is now a superhero in my eyes. Beautiful, fun-loving, successful academic by day...strung-out drug runner by night!

I admit I could be totally wrong about this, but how in the world did that girl do it? How was she in such bad shape that she needed rehab, yet managed to keep a 4.0 GPA, join the dance team, and go down a shame spiral so horrible without her family or friends knowing.

And I know Beth has made some mistakes, but for her or Jug to send a girl fresh out of rehab to Aruba on an all-drinking-vacation is a death wish. I can almost agree that Beth was trying to protect Natalee's image a little, but I doubt she hated her enough to send her on a wild trip post-rehab. Surely this rumor could easily be squashed?

And for that matter, do you really think Jug would spout family secrets to a taxi driver?

IMO.

[No Nic]

I have definitely just changed my opinion of Natalee...she is now a superhero in my eyes. Beautiful, fun-loving, successful academic by day...strung-out drug runner by night!

I admit I could be totally wrong about this, but how in the world did that girl do it? How was she in such bad shape that she needed rehab, yet managed to keep a 4.0 GPA, join the dance team, and go down a shame spiral so horrible without her family or friends knowing.

And I know Beth has made some mistakes, but for her or Jug to send a girl fresh out of rehab to Aruba on an all-drinking-vacation is a death wish. I can almost agree that Beth was trying to protect Natalee's image a little, but I doubt she hated her enough to send her on a wild trip post-rehab. Surely this rumor could easily be squashed?

And for that matter, do you really think Jug would spout family secrets to a taxi driver?

IMO.

Yep, they wanted to keep this all hush-hush, but tell a taxi driver:rolleyes: ...oh...and tell C. Croes (another stranger) personal secrets. :rolleyes: (Wanna takes bets that CC will be "revealing" these secrets soon, lol)

IMO, this case must have hurt Aruba's tourism much much more than anyone wants to admit, that is why we are hearing this multitude of rumor/trash regarding Natalee and her family.....deflect, deflect and blame, blame the missing girl and her family....save Aruba's reputation above all else. Most can see through these desperate (and failed) attempts. Like HiLife said yesterday, this too will fall into the Aruba rumor black hole with no substantiation/proof.

Fortunately all involved with this injustice will have to answer to a higher power one day.

imo

[Luke Davis]

O/T .... Boy, I am SUCH a homer .... lol. I watched the Bills-Patriots game to the bitter end .... While I'm a dedicated BILLS fan .... the Patriots are the "elite" of the league ....

Luke .... I believe it was you, who mentioned something in the previous thread about the possibility of Natalee being in drug rehab. without Beth knowing about it. I would say that would be virtually impossible. Sadly, being familiar with drug rehabs .... they usually encourage heavy family involvement .... family encouragement, etc. Plus the fact, they usually involve a person being there for quite a period of time. I would think she SHORTEST time one could be there would be 30 days .... some last much longer .... at least a year.

The first thing I thought about when I heard about this, and I DO realize it's a rumor, was .... IF it's true .... it IS inconceivable that Natalee would be sent on this type of trip, especially without any supervision.

JMO

Thanks fairmaiden. I don't have much experience in that area and none in Alabama. Should be easy to confirm then. My limited research did show there is out-patient care but maybe that is after the 30-day period.


MOO

[Luke Davis]

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands.html

National Geographic, Destinations Rated: Islands
Text by Jonathan B. Tourtellot
SNIP:Guide to the Scores:
0-25: Catastrophic: all criteria very negative, outlook grim.
26-49: In serious trouble.
50-65: In moderate trouble: all criteria medium-negative or a mix of negatives and positives.
66-85: Minor difficulties.
86-95: Authentic, unspoiled, and likely to remain so.
96-100: Enhanced

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands_caribbean.html#99
SNIP:Aruba
Score: 48
"Massive development of high-rise hotels on the west end results in serious traffic congestion. Also heavy dependence for hotel workers on expatriate labor. Cruise ships have resulted in a tacky downtown."

"The high-rise hotels lining Palm Beach are a good way of maximizing bodies on a beach while minimally impacting the island's interior. Vast majority of islanders are employed by tourism and know it's their bread and butter. The attitude towards visitors is genuinely warm and inviting. The Arikok National Park appears to be well-protected."

"Very little aesthetic appeal. The island has become almost exclusively a sand, sun, sea, and casino experience. Tourists are not educated on the ecological and/or historical elements of the destination."

"There's no 'there' there."

Not a place I would want to send my daughter. MOO

[fairmaiden]

I have definitely just changed my opinion of Natalee...she is now a superhero in my eyes. Beautiful, fun-loving, successful academic by day...strung-out drug runner by night!

I admit I could be totally wrong about this, but how in the world did that girl do it? How was she in such bad shape that she needed rehab, yet managed to keep a 4.0 GPA, join the dance team, and go down a shame spiral so horrible without her family or friends knowing.

And I know Beth has made some mistakes, but for her or Jug to send a girl fresh out of rehab to Aruba on an all-drinking-vacation is a death wish. I can almost agree that Beth was trying to protect Natalee's image a little, but I doubt she hated her enough to send her on a wild trip post-rehab. Surely this rumor could easily be squashed?

And for that matter, do you really think Jug would spout family secrets to a taxi driver?

IMO.

AMS .... I don't have any idea if this rumor is true. I have prefaced it every time, by saying I KNOW it's a rumor.

To address your post. Having had experience, unfortunately, with drug rehabs .... I can tell you, many people who are in there .... are very bright, beautiful people .... some very talented, clever individuals. Very many of them come from very privileged backgrounds. It's not only the "down and out" who lose themselves in today's drug culture.

IF this rumor is true .... I'm sure her family DID know. I'm also sure her friends might have known. It's not something that's discussed openly .... I can tell you, there is most often some shame and embarrassment which goes along with it.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if some in Natalee's circle of friends were addicted to drugs. Drugs are insidious, and are found where you least expect them.

This is just my impression of Jug .... he seems to be the type of individual who might say something without thinking about it .... regretting it later.

All Just My Opinion

[Luke Davis]

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands.html

National Geographic, Destinations Rated: Islands
Text by Jonathan B. Tourtellot
SNIP:Guide to the Scores:
0-25: Catastrophic: all criteria very negative, outlook grim.
26-49: In serious trouble.
50-65: In moderate trouble: all criteria medium-negative or a mix of negatives and positives.
66-85: Minor difficulties.
86-95: Authentic, unspoiled, and likely to remain so.
96-100: Enhanced

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands_caribbean.html#99
SNIP:Aruba
Score: 48
"Massive development of high-rise hotels on the west end results in serious traffic congestion. Also heavy dependence for hotel workers on expatriate labor. Cruise ships have resulted in a tacky downtown."

"The high-rise hotels lining Palm Beach are a good way of maximizing bodies on a beach while minimally impacting the island's interior. Vast majority of islanders are employed by tourism and know it's their bread and butter. The attitude towards visitors is genuinely warm and inviting. The Arikok National Park appears to be well-protected."

"Very little aesthetic appeal. The island has become almost exclusively a sand, sun, sea, and casino experience. Tourists are not educated on the ecological and/or historical elements of the destination."

"There's no 'there' there."

Thanks for the link, it is fascinating.

Oahu, Hawaii
Score: 46

[Luke Davis]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm

Not exactly a great place to go for a naive young lady. Too many temptations. MOO

[fairmaiden]

Not exactly a great place to go for a naive young lady. Too many temptations. MOO

You are correct, Luke .... No doubt about it !!

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Not exactly a great place to go for a naive young lady. Too many temptations. MOO

You are suggesting Natalee would be tempted to join the Mafia or engage in money laundering?

[fairmaiden]

Yep, they wanted to keep this all hush-hush, but tell a taxi driver:rolleyes: ...oh...and tell C. Croes (another stranger) personal secrets. :rolleyes: (Wanna takes bets that CC will be "revealing" these secrets soon, lol)

IMO, this case must have hurt Aruba's tourism much much more than anyone wants to admit, that is why we are hearing this multitude of rumor/trash regarding Natalee and her family.....deflect, deflect and blame, blame the missing girl and her family....save Aruba's reputation above all else. Most can see through these desperate (and failed) attempts. Like HiLife said yesterday, this too will fall into the Aruba rumor black hole with no substantiation/proof.

Fortunately all involved with this injustice will have to answer to a higher power one day.

imo

No Nic .... I believe that IF Aruba's tourism was hurt by this case, it was hurt very minimally .... I believe anyone who goes to Aruba now, really gives very little thought to this case .... if any. You and I might place importance on this case, but when you talk about "most people", I believe that's gross exaggeration.

Did this RUMOR originate with someone from Aruba ??

JMO

[AMS80]

AMS .... I don't have any idea if this rumor is true. I have prefaced it every time, by saying I KNOW it's a rumor.

To address your post. Having had experience, unfortunately, with drug rehabs .... I can tell you, many people who are in there .... are very bright, beautiful people .... some very talented, clever individuals. Very many of them come from very privileged backgrounds. It's not only the "down and out" who lose themselves in today's drug culture.

IF this rumor is true .... I'm sure her family DID know. I'm also sure her friends might have known. It's not something that's discussed openly .... I can tell you, there is most often some shame and embarrassment which goes along with it.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if some in Natalee's circle of friends were addicted to drugs. Drugs are insidious, and are found where you least expect them.

This is just my impression of Jug .... he seems to be the type of individual who might say something without thinking about it .... regretting it later.

All Just My Opinion

Hi, Fair!

I know you stated this as a rumor, as well as your opinion on it. I was just stating my opinion in return.

I agree many priveledged and talented people have to go through rehab. Just look at many of the celebrities we have plastered across the tv. There is no doubt in my mind that many of these people are extremely talented individuals. That doesn't change the fact that when they fall, they fall hard (ex. Lohan, Spears, etc.). You may very well be right that it could have been hush-hush, but I don't think so. That article is alledging that Natalee "just got out of rehab," which means she would've missed school very close to the end of her senior year. I don't see this happening without it being noticed, not even by close friends and family. This rumor would have surfaced long before now, and not from some taxi driver claiming to have caused Jug to have the mouth flu.

This is all IMO and I will be the first to smack myself upside the head if the rumor proves true. We'll see.

[Luke Davis]

I don't know who decided on the destination or what kind of research was done prior to selecting it.
It has been discussed here. Don't know if the links exist any longer. There were 3 criteria for the location chosen.

1. Drinking age 18.
2. All inclusive.
3. No need for driving.


MOO




Jodi Bearman (http://lahrealestate.com/lahproperties.asp?rl=Jodi%20Bearman&sfx=R1)

Caution (http://airwolf.lmtonline.com/news/archive/122605/pagea8.pdf)

Plus, the drinking age at many foreign destinations is 18 or younger - and seldom enforced, youth travel advisories warn.

``It's to get away from their parents and have an unbridled weekend with little or no responsibility - they think they're getting away with something,'' said Scott Gane, regional vice president for Initial Security, a national security firm based out of San Antonio, Texas.

Educate (http://dj.com.ve/article.asp?CategoryId=14092&ArticleId=214732)

[QUOTE]JODI BEARMAN, TRIP ORGANIZER: From the research we have done, and the options for teens traveling from 18 to 20 years old, really, this is the safest spot. And we knew that the students wouldn

[Luke Davis]

IIRC in her book Beth said Matt went to Puerto Rico so maybe that is where they go now IMO
Much better.

Puerto Rico
Score: 51


Rating (http://www.nationalgeographic.com/traveler/features/islandsrated0711/islands_caribbean.html#95)

[JustMyOpinion]

It has been discussed here. Don't know if the links exist any longer. There were 3 criteria for the location chosen.

1. Drinking age 18.
2. All inclusive.
3. No need for driving.


MOO




[ I've never read a statement from anyone claiming those were the three criteria.
At least one previous class took their trip to Aruba, this was likely part of the reason it was chosen again, IMO.
I don't doubt that the young people wanted to go somewhere with a lower legal drinking age. JMO

[fairmaiden]

Hi, Fair!

I know you stated this as a rumor, as well as your opinion on it. I was just stating my opinion in return.

I agree many priveledged and talented people have to go through rehab. Just look at many of the celebrities we have plastered across the tv. There is no doubt in my mind that many of these people are extremely talented individuals. That doesn't change the fact that when they fall, they fall hard (ex. Lohan, Spears, etc.). You may very well be right that it could have been hush-hush, but I don't think so. That article is alledging that Natalee "just got out of rehab," which means she would've missed school very close to the end of her senior year. I don't see this happening without it being noticed, not even by close friends and family. This rumor would have surfaced long before now, and not from some taxi driver claiming to have caused Jug to have the mouth flu.

This is all IMO and I will be the first to smack myself upside the head if the rumor proves true. We'll see.

I agree with you AMS .... I mentioned it before. One's absence is not something they can hide.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

I've never read a statement from anyone claiming those were the three criteria.
At least one previous class took their trip to Aruba, this was likely part of the reason it was chosen again, IMO.
I don't doubt that the young people wanted to go somewhere with a lower legal drinking age. JMO

At one time, I posted a video clip but I can't find it now, just this exerpt.

Meanwhile, the organizer of the graduation trip talked about why Aruba was chosen as the destination for Natalee and her Mountain Brook classmates.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JODI BEARMAN, TRIP ORGANIZER: From the research we have done, and the options for teens traveling from 18 to 20 years old, really, this is the safest spot. And we knew that the students wouldn‘t be driving cars. We did know that they would be old enough to drink and that they would be legal age to do so. And we provide chaperones. And, basically, the chaperones‘ jobs are simply to be there for emergencies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8160223/)

[Heyes]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm

:read:

Ouch!

[No Nic]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm

:read:

Ouch!

:eek: :chicken: :chicken: :chicken:

[Chocoholic]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htm


This was discussed years ago, but thank you for the link. It was dated 1997.

Aruban Connections

Five members of the Aruban Mansur Family, viz. Mr. Elias F. Mansur, Mrs. Damia M. de Cuba-Mansur, Mr. Luis E. Mansur, Mr. Miguel J. Mansur and Mrs. Sarah E. Arends-Mansur, have raised objections against general references in the following chapter to the Mansurs or the Mansur family. In their opinion these references may be understood as including them and thereby implicating them in alleged wrongdoing they have never committed.
The author is of the opinion that such references to a large family will not be misunderstood as including each and every member of the family. However, in case this opinion should prove incorrect, the author points out that he regrets such misunderstanding and that he did not intend said references to implicate all members of the family.

Some familiar names in there aren't there?

Alex and Eric Mansur were indicted in Puerto Rico in August 1994


This is allegedly where Paul v.d. Sloot came in. I not longer have a link but read that Paul v.d. Sloot was instrumental in getting Alex and Eric extradicted.

Such a good friend of beth's that Jossy is. So very helpful, from what we've seen.

imo

[JustMyOpinion]

This was discussed years ago, but thank you for the link. It was dated 1997.

Aruban Connections



Some familiar names in there aren't there?


This is allegedly where Paul v.d. Sloot came in. I not longer have a link but read that Paul v.d. Sloot was instrumental in getting Alex and Eric extradicted.

Such a good friend of beth's that Jossy is. So very helpful, from what we've seen.

imo

Of course, you post unsubstantiated rumor on the board, (as usual) with the disclaimer that you "read it". I've not read that Jossy is "a good friend of Beth" or that members of his family had any prior involvement with the van der Sloot family.
Link, please.

[Chocoholic]

Foremost among those powerful families is the Mansurs, who built their fortune on liquor and cigarettes; they own Marlboro factories in Aruba and Curacao, as well as the Aruba-based Interbank and much of Aruba’s free-trade zone, where there is no customs inspection. They also have Florida shipping interests.
http://thekomisarscoop.com/1997/05/29/drug-smugglers-dutch-treat/

Interbank, IIRC was at the time owned by Jossy.

[JustMyOpinion]

http://thekomisarscoop.com/1997/05/29/drug-smugglers-dutch-treat/

Interbank, IIRC was at the time owned by Jossy.


There is nothing in the article you linked to stating what you alleged about Beth & Jossy or Jossy's family and Pvds.
Link, please.

[JustMyOpinion]

[QUOTE=Chocoholic;9062778
Interbank, IIRC was at the time owned by Jossy.[/QUOTE]


Link to substantiate allegation that Jossy Mansur ever owned Interbank. TIA.

[Chocoholic]

The banking sector has weathered the recession well and seems well-capitalized and highly profitable. The share of nonperforming loans seems to have been brought under control and the acquisition of Interbank Aruba by Aruba Bank in late 2003 has further strengthened the banking system.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2005/011905.htm

Looks like the bank was owned by the Mansurs until 2003.

Hmm nonconforming loans and high interest rates.

[Chocoholic]

TWITTY: Well, you know, I‘ll be forever grateful for Jossy Mansur, who is there. And he has been so instrumental. And he‘s just a hero to all of us.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9354188/

If that's not a friend, what is?

[JustMyOpinion]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9354188/

If that's not a friend, what is?

She said hero, not friend.

[Chocoholic]

She said hero, not friend.

IMO a matter of semantics. I would certainly call a hero of mine a friend.

[Heyes]

I disagree that other Island destinations are reputed to be "the first independent State under Mafia control", JMO.
http://www.tni.org/detail_page.phtml?page=archives_tblick_aruba
Or, play a "significant role as an offshore center for drug-related money laundering" JMO http://www.newswithviews.com/Kouri/jim9.htmThe US is concerned about credible reports that some members of the Aruban government met regularly with individuals associated with drug trafficking and money laundering syndicates. In spite of, or perhaps because of, the denials by Aruba officials, the US remains convinced that entrenched money laundering organizations direct large cash deposits into land development and other construction projects on the island. (3) The Netherlands is equally worried. "I think we are going to loose it on Aruba," Arthur Docters van Leeuwen, the Dutch Attorney General, said about the counter-narcotics efforts on the island. Aruba is in the hands of some powerful families and Holland can't do anything about it, due to constitutional restraints. (4)

I think Natalee ended up in the hands of one of those families.........hmmmmm
IMO
:mad:


From your first link,

[Luke Davis]

http://thekomisarscoop.com/1997/05/29/drug-smugglers-dutch-treat/

Interbank, IIRC was at the time owned by Jossy.IIRC we discussed that when Mansur's gardener fingered J2K by the pond.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

I feel you're becoming hostile. I stated IIRC. I do remember reading it 2 1/2 yrs ago. No links to my memory.
IIRC we discussed several connections, even the schools they attended. I don't remember a direct connection with Beth but many connections with the Twittys. MOO

IMO

[Luke Davis]

http://www.imf.org/external/np/ms/2005/011905.htm

Looks like the bank was owned by the Mansurs until 2003.

Hmm nonconforming loans and high interest rates.
Isn't that about the time Jar's bank got slapped for money laundering? IIRC we discussed that over two years ago.


MOO

[Luke Davis]

<<edited for clarity>>

I think Natalee ended up in the hands of one of those families.........hmmmmm
IMO
:mad:


From your first link,[/QUOTE]That was one of my early theories based on some early rumors that the real targets were Thomas and Hunter Twitty. Natalee was just a message.

They certainly got everyone off the island quickly.


MOO

[ortiga]

At one time, I posted a video clip but I can't find it now, just this exerpt.



MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8160223/)

If they knew there would be no driving, then how come Natalee brought her drivers license.

[fairmaiden]

If they knew there would be no driving, then how come Natalee brought her drivers license.

Hmmmmmmmm .... could it just be something she would have left in her wallet, ortiga ?? In other words, if I knew I wasn't going to be driving for a week .... I'm not sure I would take my driver's license out of my wallet ?? :shrug:

JMO

[ortiga]

Hmmmmmmmm .... could it just be something she would have left in her wallet, ortiga ?? In other words, if I knew I wasn't going to be driving for a week .... I'm not sure I would take my driver's license out of my wallet ?? :shrug:

JMO

Hi FM, I was thinking of why she took her DL and not her ATM card, as we were talking about the other day. The passport would have been superior Id to DL, any country I've been in. Oh well, we'll probably never even know if she did take her DL, was Beth the only one that said that?

[fairmaiden]

Hi FM, I was thinking of why she took her DL and not her ATM card, as we were talking about the other day. The passport would have been superior Id to DL, any country I've been in. Oh well, we'll probably never even know if she did take her DL, was Beth the only one that said that?

I don't remember anything about her DL, ortiga.

It's just something I have in that special place in my wallet, you know?? I wouldn't think to take it out.

ETA .... I was just thinking .... some people carry all their charge cards, ATM cards in something separate. I USED to do that.

JMO

[Grandad]

Hi FM, I was thinking of why she took her DL and not her ATM card, as we were talking about the other day. The passport would have been superior Id to DL, any country I've been in. Oh well, we'll probably never even know if she did take her DL, was Beth the only one that said that?

One could argue she took the DL for proof of age at C&C's, but I'd bet most, if not all, the clubs on the island accept the hotel bracelets as proof of being of drinking age.

ETA We only have Beth's word she left her passport behind.

[Heyes]

<<edited for clarity>>

I think Natalee ended up in the hands of one of those families.........hmmmmm
IMO
:mad:


From your first link,That was one of my early theories based on some early rumors that the real targets were Thomas and Hunter Twitty. Natalee was just a message.

They certainly got everyone off the island quickly.


MOO[/QUOTE]

Who is they?
I remember some of the suspects with families established on the island fleeing to other places. :chicken: imo

[Chocoholic]

Isn't that about the time Jar's bank got slapped for money laundering? IIRC we discussed that over two years ago.


MOO

Yes, to all your previous posts. :D

[Luke Davis]

One could argue she took the DL for proof of age at C&C's, but I'd bet most, if not all, the clubs on the island accept the hotel bracelets as proof of being of drinking age.

ETA We only have Beth's word she left her passport behind.Perhaps Natalee was an organ donor.



When applying for your Alabama driver's license, you'll be asked if you wish to become an organ donor. Your reply of "Yes" or "No" will be placed on your permanent driver's license as a means of notifying emergency personnel of your decision.

Carry with you at all times (http://www.dmv.org/al-alabama/organ-donor.php)

[ortiga]

Perhaps Natalee was an organ donor.





Carry with you at all times (http://www.dmv.org/al-alabama/organ-donor.php)

I don't think that organ donor thing works on tourists. I mean, I doubt that they will yank out an American's kidneys if they are in an accident......think of how many tabloid interviews that would produce.

Of course she could have been stolen for her organs, as gruesome as that sounds, every now and then a report like that surfaces. Or did I see a sci-fi movie.

[JustMyOpinion]

If they knew there would be no driving, then how come Natalee brought her drivers license.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/06/ng.01.html
Karl Penhaul, a CNN correspondent, is in Aruba. Karl, has her driver`s license been found?

PENHAUL: No, according to prosecutors and police investigators, none of Natalee`s possessions or any of her clothing has been found. The two suspects arrested yesterday, their homes were thoroughly searched by police. And police did take away bags of possessions and also confiscated three cars.

But they`ve been very specific. Nothing of Natalee`s has been found. The reason why she may have taken her driving license out with her is for some form of official I.D. Here, unlike the States, 18-years-old, like under European law, is the legal age for drinking and such like, and in many of the bars here, you have to provide some form of I.D. so that you`re allowed to enter and allowed to consume beer or any other alcohol. So that`s quite likely the reason why Natalee took along her driving license.

GRACE: So it sounds to me, Karl, like she packed to leave before she went to Carlos and Charlie`s for dinner or whatever, had everything ready, so when she came back, it would be ready for her in the morning, taking only her driver`s license and probably some cash to go to the bar. Has her credit card been used whatsoever since this time?

PENHAUL: Those kind of details haven`t been provided by investigators, but so far there`s nothing that would indicate that.

[ortiga]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/06/ng.01.html
Karl Penhaul, a CNN correspondent, is in Aruba. Karl, has her driver`s license been found?

PENHAUL: No, according to prosecutors and police investigators, none of Natalee`s possessions or any of her clothing has been found. The two suspects arrested yesterday, their homes were thoroughly searched by police. And police did take away bags of possessions and also confiscated three cars.

But they`ve been very specific. Nothing of Natalee`s has been found. The reason why she may have taken her driving license out with her is for some form of official I.D. Here, unlike the States, 18-years-old, like under European law, is the legal age for drinking and such like, and in many of the bars here, you have to provide some form of I.D. so that you`re allowed to enter and allowed to consume beer or any other alcohol. So that`s quite likely the reason why Natalee took along her driving license.

GRACE: So it sounds to me, Karl, like she packed to leave before she went to Carlos and Charlie`s for dinner or whatever, had everything ready, so when she came back, it would be ready for her in the morning, taking only her driver`s license and probably some cash to go to the bar. Has her credit card been used whatsoever since this time?

PENHAUL: Those kind of details haven`t been provided by investigators, but so far there`s nothing that would indicate that.

The point is that the passport would have served for ID. Why take 2 IDs?

[No Nic]

The point is that the passport would have served for ID. Why take 2 IDs?

Maybe because they knew the chaperones would be holding their passports while they were in Aruba.

[No Nic]

Here is some news: a ship leaves the USA tomorrow for Aruba area with very high tech equipment on it…..we are following the story very closely. The goal with the ship and the high tech equipment is to essentially comb the ocean floor looking for clues (clues being code for Natalee.) Expect more updates from us on this…

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/

[JustMyOpinion]

The point is that the passport would have served for ID. Why take 2 IDs?
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=1819038&page=2

Book Excerpt: Natalee Holloway's Father Speaks
Dave Holloway Describes His Struggle to Find His Missing Daughter
SNIP:We heard that, upon their arrival in Aruba, the chaperones scheduled daily meetings with the students and collected their passports before distributing their room keys. Every day the students were to check in with the chaperones at a specific time

[Chocoholic]

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Story?id=1819038&page=2

Book Excerpt: Natalee Holloway's Father Speaks
Dave Holloway Describes His Struggle to Find His Missing Daughter
SNIP:We heard that, upon their arrival in Aruba, the chaperones scheduled daily meetings with the students and collected their passports before distributing their room keys. Every day the students were to check in with the chaperones at a specific time

Check in in the evening or the morning? Which specific time. They sure weren't waiting for her at 3 a.m. in the hotel lobby.

[Luke Davis]

Here is some news: a ship leaves the USA tomorrow for Aruba area with very high tech equipment on it…..we are following the story very closely. The goal with the ship and the high tech equipment is to essentially comb the ocean floor looking for clues (clues being code for Natalee.) Expect more updates from us on this…

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/Thanks No Nic. I hope they find something but after all this time and some big storms.

:shrug:

[Chocoholic]

Thanks No Nic. I hope they find something but after all this time and some big storms.

:shrug:

That link doesn't show anything about a ship. Another Equuusearch promise? How many does that make in the last 2 years?

[Luke Davis]

That link doesn't show anything about a ship. Another Equuusearch promise? How many does that make in the last 2 years?
It did a few minutes ago, it has been changed.
:shrug:

It was moved to Page 2.

Page 2 (http://gretawire.foxnews.com/page/2/)

[Chocoholic]

It did a few minutes ago, it has been changed.
:shrug:

It was moved to Page 2.

Page 2 (http://gretawire.foxnews.com/page/2/)

The goal with the ship and the high tech equipment is to essentially comb the ocean floor looking for clues (clues being code for Natalee.) .(and one other thing…have you noticed that I learned how to spell Natalee’s name??? many of you pointed out to me that I have been spelling it incorrectly ….)

Schweet, now she can spell Natalee, perhaps she can have somebody assist her with her grammar.

Still, it's more than two years later that Equusearch promised to be back. I doubt that anything more will be found than the last time and one must wonder, who is paying for this tropical cruise?

[Chocoholic]

The US is concerned about credible reports that some members of the Aruban government met regularly with individuals associated with drug trafficking and money laundering syndicates. In spite of, or perhaps because of, the denials by Aruba officials, the US remains convinced that entrenched money laundering organizations direct large cash deposits into land development and other construction projects on the island. (3) The Netherlands is equally worried. "I think we are going to loose it on Aruba," Arthur Docters van Leeuwen, the Dutch Attorney General, said about the counter-narcotics efforts on the island. Aruba is in the hands of some powerful families and Holland can't do anything about it, due to constitutional restraints. (4)
I think Natalee ended up in the hands of one of those families.........hmmmmm
IMO
:mad:


From your first link,

The Interbank is owned by the Mansur Family. If anybody owns 60 per cent of the island, it is this powerful family. The Mansurs made their fortune as cigarette manufacturers and in the import-export business. With a licence of Philip Morris, they are the major suppliers of Marlboros in the Caribbean basin. The Mansurs sponsor the best baseball team – Aruba's national sport – the Marlboro Red Tigers as well as the AVP party of Prime Minister Henny Eman. They own the biggest hotel and time-sharing complex, La Cabana, with its inevitable casino. And they have a couple of import-export businesses in the Free Trade Zone.

Then let's ask Jossy and his family what really happened to Natalee. Anybody that powerful and such a hero to beth, surely wouldn't have anything to hide the truth.

[terrysdoor]

Then let's ask Jossy and his family what really happened to Natalee. Anybody that powerful and such a hero to beth, surely wouldn't have anything to hide the truth.

Good morning everybody........you know Choco i have always thought Jossy to be the one sending out a lot of false info and Beth ran with everything he said wasn`t it Jossy who found all of the suspects statements in a trash can people talk about Julia what about Jossy IMO

[Grandad]

Here is some news: a ship leaves the USA tomorrow for Aruba area with very high tech equipment on it…..we are following the story very closely. The goal with the ship and the high tech equipment is to essentially comb the ocean floor looking for clues (clues being code for Natalee.) Expect more updates from us on this…

http://gretawire.foxnews.com/

Boy, I wonder if J2K had enough warning to get their divers to retrieve Natalee's remains, and move them once again.

[Grandad]

Good morning everybody........you know Choco i have always thought Jossy to be the one sending out a lot of false info and Beth ran with everything he said wasn`t it Jossy who found all of the suspects statements in a trash can people talk about Julia what about Jossy IMO

What Jossy didn't find in a trash can came from his paid stooge, Art Wood.

You know, the guy who found Jossy's relative's gardener, the guy with the frozen condom, the belt on the beach, and so on. The guy who said as soon as Aruba closes their investigation, the FBI will start theirs and extradite J2K to the U.S.

I've often wondered why a spokesperson for the Secret Service never made a public statement as to why Wood is "ex" Secret Service.

The least they could do is apologize for ever letting him join.

[JustMyOpinion]

Still, it's more than two years later that Equusearch promised to be back. I doubt that anything more will be found than the last time and one must wonder, who is paying for this tropical cruise?
http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
Miller told a Houston television reporter that Aruba's police commissioner told him that Natalee might be inside a large fish trap that was stolen the night she disappeared in June 2004.

"The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman's hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since," Miller said.

Miller believes the fish trap is three to five miles off the coast of Aruba in water that is 800 to 1,000 feet deep. Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.

[Grandad]

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
<snip>
Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.[/B]

I wonder if this equipment was made by the guy with the "divining" rod who stood on the beach and "located" Natalees bones two or three miles out in the ocean.

[JustMyOpinion]

I wonder if this equipment was made by the guy with the "divining" rod who stood on the beach and "located" Natalees bones two or three miles out in the ocean.

How does the report of a ship with high tech equipment that will be utilized to comb the ocean floor make you wonder such a thing?

[terrysdoor]

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
Miller told a Houston television reporter that Aruba's police commissioner told him that Natalee might be inside a large fish trap that was stolen the night she disappeared in June 2004.

"The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman's hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since," Miller said.

Miller believes the fish trap is three to five miles off the coast of Aruba in water that is 800 to 1,000 feet deep. Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.

I wonder if they tried to get any finger prints off of the huts IMO it would be interesting to know if J2K`s were on anything IMO

[terrysdoor]

Happy Thanksgiving To All :)

[fairmaiden]

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
Miller told a Houston television reporter that Aruba's police commissioner told him that Natalee might be inside a large fish trap that was stolen the night she disappeared in June 2004.

"The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman's hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since," Miller said.

Miller believes the fish trap is three to five miles off the coast of Aruba in water that is 800 to 1,000 feet deep. Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.


JMO .... It looks like this article was printed almost 2 years ago ((January, 2006??)). If Tim Miller believed the fish trap was where he thought it was, and his specialized equipment would retrieve it .... did he conduct this search ?? It's now almost December, 2007.

ETA .... I also find this interesting in the article ....

~~~`"Our whole goal is none other than to bring Natalee Holloway home," Miller said. "It's too early to just say it's over with. There are still some things to do."~~~

JMO

[Grandad]

I wonder if this equipment was made by the guy with the "divining" rod who stood on the beach and "located" Natalees bones two or three miles out in the ocean.

It appears to be the same kind of science.

If such equipment actually existed don't you think people would be using it to locate all those Spanish galleons which sunk, generally relatively close to shore, loaded with all that gold.

[fairmaiden]

Happy Thanksgiving To All :)

To you too, terry ....

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone !!!

[JustMyOpinion]

JMO .... It looks like this article was printed almost 2 years ago ((January, 2006??)). If Tim Miller believed the fish trap was where he thought it was, and his specialized equipment would retrive it .... did he conduct this search ?? It's now almost December, 2007.

JMO

IIRC, when Equu Search was last in Aruba in 2005, the equipment they had was not capable of searching at the depths required, and IIRC, Dave Holloway indicated authorities in Aruba failed to authorize the FBI to bring in the necessary equipment at that time.
I'm guessing the ship Greta reported is in route to Aruba has the necessary equipment to search deep water, JMO.

[Grandad]

<snip>
Dave Holloway indicated authorities in Aruba failed to authorize the FBI to bring in the necessary equipment at that time.

<snip>


I don't know if it was Dave who first said that, but I do remember it was reported.

I have a neighbor who retired from the FBI after 30 years of service who says the FBI simply doesn't have that kind of equipment.

Maybe somebody should have talked with the Navy.

[fairmaiden]

IIRC, when Equu Search was last in Aruba in 2005, the equipment they had was not capable of searching at the depths required, and IIRC, Dave Holloway indicated authorities in Aruba failed to authorize the FBI to bring in the necessary equipment at that time.
I'm guessing the ship Greta reported is in route to Aruba has the necessary equipment to search deep water, JMO.

IIRC .... It's interesting to note in the article you linked .... Tim Miller SAID they had the specialized equipment to search 800 - 1000 ft. deep. I wonder if they ever used that "specialized equipment" ?? Do you know if they ever searched in the specific area TM talked about ??

JMO

[SukiJane]

I wonder if they tried to get any finger prints off of the huts IMO it would be interesting to know if J2K`s were on anything IMO

Well now that would be interesting. Joran didn't come up with his beach story until 23 days after Natalee's disappearance, although, according to some statements I have seen online, it appears the fishermen's huts were discussed very early in this case.

eta: I would like to know if anything was ever captured on the store security cameras in the area that Joran may have walked home.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

IIRC .... It's interesting to note in the article you linked .... Tim Miller SAID they had the specialized equipment to search 800 - 1000 ft. deep. I wonder if they ever used that "specialized equipment" ?? Do you know if they ever searched in the specific area TM talked about ??

JMO

The article appears to have been written in 2006, IMO.
To my knowledge, Equu Search has not been back to Aruba since Oct/Nov of 2005.

[JustMyOpinion]

It appears to be the same kind of science.

If such equipment actually existed don't you think people would be using it to locate all those Spanish galleons which sunk, generally relatively close to shore, loaded with all that gold.

I disagree that high-tech equipment on a ship compares to divining rods.
I don't know what Spanish galleons have to do with the topic of the board.

[Chocoholic]

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
Miller told a Houston television reporter that Aruba's police commissioner told him that Natalee might be inside a large fish trap that was stolen the night she disappeared in June 2004.

"The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman's hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since," Miller said.

Miller believes the fish trap is three to five miles off the coast of Aruba in water that is 800 to 1,000 feet deep. Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.
2004? No wonder Miller can't find Natalee.

The traps have been investigated. One would need one either large enough to handle by several people and a boat large enough to accomodate them - none of which have been reputed to be found on Aruba, or Natalee would have to have been cut up in itty bitty pieces, which would have left a mess.

More rumors from tim, IMO he has no facts to base this on.

[Luke Davis]

Happy Thanksgiving To All :)
Thank you very much and the same to all.
:hat: (turkeys excepted)

[Luke Davis]

IIRC .... It's interesting to note in the article you linked .... Tim Miller SAID they had the specialized equipment to search 800 - 1000 ft. deep. I wonder if they ever used that "specialized equipment" ?? Do you know if they ever searched in the specific area TM talked about ??

JMOIIRC similar equipment was used to search for Laci Peterson in shallow calm water by comparision and she wasn't found.


MOO

[Heyes]

Then let's ask Jossy and his family what really happened to Natalee. Anybody that powerful and such a hero to beth, surely wouldn't have anything to hide the truth.

Nope, The people that need to cough up the truth is the vandersloots, a couple of kalpoes and a handful of paulus's buddies.
Why oh why did anita lie?
How involved was paulus in the kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee?
When paulus said he picked "them" up at 4:00 am at McDonalds what did he do to Natalee?
When the wifes away........... bad mr. vandersloot.
IMO!

[Heyes]

I disagree that high-tech equipment on a ship compares to divining rods.
I don't know what Spanish galleons have to do with the topic of the board.

:shrug:

who knows around here??????
I do notice how Tim Miller is routinely put down and anyone else who tried to help the Holloway/Twitty's.
THAT speaks volumes!
joran supporters seems to resent any help from anybody that Beth and Dave receive. Real help, not julia renfro type help. lol
imo

[fairmaiden]

Nope, The people that need to cough up the truth is the vandersloots, a couple of kalpoes and a handful of paulus's buddies.
Why oh why did anita lie?
How involved was paulus in the kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee?
When paulus said he picked "them" up at 4:00 am at McDonalds what did he do to Natalee?
When the wifes away........... bad mr. vandersloot.
IMO!

Heyes .... Has it been proven there WAS a "kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee" ??

JMO

[ortiga]

I've often wondered why a spokesperson for the Secret Service never made a public statement as to why Wood is "ex" Secret Service.

The least they could do is apologize for ever letting him join.

Did he ever say exactly what he used to do for the "secret service"? It tickles me to see all these "ex" used to be's on TV. And that they are listened to like sages because of their "ex" status.

[fairmaiden]

http://crime.about.com/b/2006/01/12/equusearch-team-to-return-to-aruba.htm
Miller told a Houston television reporter that Aruba's police commissioner told him that Natalee might be inside a large fish trap that was stolen the night she disappeared in June 2004.

"The night she disappeared is the same night a fisherman's hut got broken into and a huge fish trap got stolen. Some big knives got stolen, and none of it has been found since," Miller said.

Miller believes the fish trap is three to five miles off the coast of Aruba in water that is 800 to 1,000 feet deep. Miller says his specialized equipment should be able to locate the large fish trap, if it is there.

:shrug:

who knows around here??????
I do notice how Tim Miller is routinely put down and anyone else who tried to help the Holloway/Twitty's.
THAT speaks volumes!
joran supporters seems to resent any help from anybody that Beth and Dave receive. Real help, not julia renfro type help. lol
imo

Heyes .... Please note a post by JMO this morning. The article she linked to is an old one.

My question was .... IF Tim miller had the equipment he talked about, and KNEW the area in which he planned to search .... DID he search ?? JMO posted that Tim Miller had not been in Aruba since November of 2005. DID Tim Miller USE that "specialized equipment" he talked about ?? HAS he searched ??

The last I heard .... Tim Miller was going back to Aruba in May of this year. This is November .... to my knowledge, he hasn't been back.

I think you exaggerate when you post that "Tim Miller is routinely put down"

How presumtive of you to state that "Joran supporters seem to resent any help". How presumtive of you to feel that YOU and those who THINK like you are the only ones interested in finding Natalee. That is just blatantly false.

I believe it's a legitimate question to ask whether or not Tim Miller USED the equipment he talked about .... and SEARCHED where he talked about.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

IIRC similar equipment was used to search for Laci Peterson in shallow calm water by comparision and she wasn't found.


MOO

I don't think SF Bay is calm, and visibility was an issue due to silt IMO.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/20/se.05.html
Greta wasn't specific about the size of the ship, the type of equipment it utilizes, and IIRC, the water surrounding Aruba is clear.
It is obvious that some persons think there is some chance of finding evidence in the water around Aruba, or the ship wouldn't be en-route to comb the ocean floor, IMO.
I think it's great this attempt is reportedly going to be made, JMO.

[ortiga]

Heyes .... Please note a post by JMO this morning. The article she linked to is an old one.

My question was .... IF Tim miller had the equipment he talked about, and KNEW the area in which he planned to search .... DID he search ?? JMO posted that Tim Miller had not been in Aruba since November of 2005. DID Tim Miller USE that "specialized equipment" he talked about ?? HAS he searched ??

The last I heard .... Tim Miller was going back to Aruba in May of this year. This is November .... to my knowledge, he hasn't been back.

I think you exaggerate when you post that "Tim Miller is routinely put down"

How presumtive of you to state that "Joran supporters seem to resent any help". How presumtive of you to feel that YOU and those who THINK like you are the only ones interested in finding Natalee. That is just blatantly false.

I believe it's a legitimate question to ask whether or not Tim Miller USED the equipment he talked about .... and SEARCHED where he talked about.

JMO

Hey FM! I read the Greta wire, I didn't see Miller's name mentioned. Do I need bifocals? How do we know that Miller has anything to do with this?

quote from Gretawire

"Here is some news: a ship leaves the USA tomorrow for Aruba area with very high tech equipment on it….."

every big ship these days has very high tech equipment on it....

I can't help but think they are really going for some other reason.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

I don't think SF Bay is calm, and visibility was an issue due to silt IMO.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0305/20/se.05.html
Greta wasn't specific about the size of the ship, the type of equipment it utilizes, and IIRC, the water surrounding Aruba is clear.
It is obvious that some persons think there is some chance of finding evidence in the water around Aruba, or the ship wouldn't be en-route to comb the ocean floor, IMO.
I think it's great this attempt is reportedly going to be made, JMO.

IIRC where the search was conducted for Laci Peterson the water was about 40 feet deep. There are white caps on windy days but people do row across the bay. MOO

The water is clear and searches were conducted but not in the area they are now going. MOO

I don't know how many people think there is some chance of finding Natalee's remains. I would think very few. MOO

I think it is good that people are still searching. MOO

One of the people who helped Tim, also searched for Laci Peterson, he is a regular poster at CTV. MOO

I wish the searches well. MOO:hat:

[Grandad]

Hey FM! I read the Greta wire, I didn't see Miller's name mentioned. Do I need bifocals? How do we know that Miller has anything to do with this?

quote from Gretawire

"Here is some news: a ship leaves the USA tomorrow for Aruba area with very high tech equipment on it….."

every big ship these days has very high tech equipment on it....

I can't help but think they are really going for some other reason.

IMO

It would really be something if Greta blew an operation that was going to spy on Venezuela, wouldn't it?

I think the most likely scenario is that it's a piece of fiction invented to get some media time.

[Luke Davis]

It would really be something if Greta blew an operation that was going to spy on Venezuela, wouldn't it?

I think the most likely scenario is that it's a piece of fiction invented to get some media time.More likely Greta is spreading a rumor for a spy. MOO

[Luke Davis]

Joran arrested - breaking news. MOO

Just heard on radio....

[One2Snoop]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- Three men who were previously detained as suspects in the 2005 disappearance of American teen Natalee Holloway have been re-arrested in the case, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said Wednesday.

Dutch teen Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe have been arrested on suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American, the prosecutor's office said in a statement.

Van der Sloot was arrested in the Netherlands, where he is attending university, and is expected to be extradited to Aruba. The Kalpoe brothers were arrested in the Dutch Caribbean island.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14663242/detail.html?treets=fran&tml=fran_natlbreak&ts=T&tmi=fran_natlbreak_1_03270711212007

[chambord]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- Three men who were previously detained as suspects in the 2005 disappearance of American teen Natalee Holloway have been re-arrested in the case, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said Wednesday.

Dutch teen Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe have been arrested on suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American, the prosecutor's office said in a statement.

Van der Sloot was arrested in the Netherlands, where he is attending university, and is expected to be extradited to Aruba. The Kalpoe brothers were arrested in the Dutch Caribbean island.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14663242/detail.html?treets=fran&tml=fran_natlbreak&ts=T&tmi=fran_natlbreak_1_03270711212007

Great News!! I just arrived home and heard the news. Its about time. Took them long enough!!! Even Greta is backtracking. :patriot: :patriot:

[Luke Davis]

suspects arrested (http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/wireStory?id=3899728)

Three young men who were previously detained as suspects in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway have been re-arrested in the case, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said Wednesday.

[chambord]

Greta says new evidence, and a trial in short order...per Fox News.

[chambord]

Joran arrested - breaking news. MOO

Just heard on radio....


And the Kalpoe brothers. This is BIG!!!!

[One2Snoop]

Greta says new evidence, and a trial in short order...per Fox News.

I haven't followed this case in ages, but this is good news. I wonder what the new evidence is?

[SukiJane]

And the Kalpoe brothers. This is BIG!!!!


I agree, this is BIG, but I'm reading these links, checking Fox, and CNN, looking at the dates just to make sure, and for some reason it still doesn't seem real!!

Happy Thanksgiving to all...eat plenty, stay safe, and hopefully everyone here will be surrounded with friends and family this holiday!!

[Luke Davis]

I haven't followed this case in ages, but this is good news. I wonder what the new evidence is?
About a week ago a search was announced but I hadn't heard anymore. Hopefully they found Natalee's remains.
:rose:

[One2Snoop]

About a week ago a search was announced but I hadn't heard anymore. Hopefully they found Natalee's remains.
:rose:

I guess I better backtrack and read up some. Thanks Luke. :beer:

[Luke Davis]

I guess I better backtrack and read up some. Thanks Luke. :beer:
You won't find much real news, backtracking. But this is BIG!
:rose:


Just announced on the radio news - body has not been found.

[Luke Davis]

In a news release from Aruban investigators, prosecutors said the arrests were based on new evidence uncovered in the case. The release also said a trial will be conducted in Aruba on the homicide charges "before the end of 2007."

About (http://crime.about.com/b/2007/11/21/three-suspects-arrested-in-natalee-holloway-case.htm)

:rose:

[oops]

OMG this is Really Big news and Greta is saying that a trial will be before the end of THIS YEAR WOW! This makes my day at last wonder what they have????

[chambord]

Greta in Fox..bactracking now...lol...voluntary manslaughter charges, something drastically changed, new evidence, trial before the end of the year..

Great News for Beth.

Joe T, on now, he doesn't know a thing, but just spoke to Greta and he agrees that there is new evidence. Joran taken in custody.

[Luke Davis]

Joe Tacopina, Greta, etc. on FOX news.

MOO

[Heyes]

Heyes .... Has it been proven there WAS a "kidnapping, rape and murder of Natalee" ??

JMO

With this fantastic new news!!!!!!! MAYBE!
joran, satish and deepak, together again! lol
This is a good day!


Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

[Luke Davis]

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest.ap/index.html)


The brothers were expected to make an initial appearance in an Aruban court Friday, at which point prosecutors were expected to present the new evidence to a judge. A court date in the island had not yet been set for van der Sloot.

Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office, said van der Sloot could be sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing and the transfer would occur "within several days."

Vinda de Sousa, an attorney for Dave Holloway, Natalee's father, said she has left a message for the family but has not talked to them and is not privy to the new evidence.

"I'm as excited as the Holloway family can be," she said. "Anything new in this case, or any development, just gives you rekindled hope that one day this will be solved. I know the investigation never stopped."

Let's go to court. MOO

[Heyes]

Greta in Fox..bactracking now...lol...voluntary manslaughter charges, something drastically changed, new evidence, trial before the end of the year..

Great News for Beth.

Joe T, on now, he doesn't know a thing, but just spoke to Greta and he agrees that there is new evidence. Joran taken in custody.

Hey Chambord. Good to see you. This is great news. Finally maybe Natalee can get the justice she deserves.
Good to see joran in cuff! Looks perfect on him.

[JustMyOpinion]

With this fantastic new news!!!!!!! MAYBE!
joran, satish and deepak, together again! lol
This is a good day!


Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!

This is a postive development, IMO
This is a good day.
Hoping for resolution in this case for all of those who knew and loved Natalee Holloway.
Happy TG to you, too Heyes, and everyone.

[Luke Davis]

Bo Dietl on FOX, very happy.

MOO

[chambord]

Hey Chambord. Good to see you. This is great news. Finally maybe Natalee can get the justice she deserves.
Good to see joran in cuff! Looks perfect on him.

I am thrilled Heyes.. This has to be something Huge. I am so happy for the Holloway/Twitty family, they have hung in there all this time, and never gave up hope.

Beth must be beside herself with the news.

Aruba woudn't dare humilate themselves a second time, so they must have some solid evidence.

[No Nic]

This is a postive development, IMO
This is a good day.
Hoping for resolution in this case for all of those who knew and loved Natalee Holloway.
Happy TG to you, too Heyes, and everyone.

WHOO HOO !!!!

It truely is a time for "thanks giving" for the Holloway family.

imo

[Heyes]

This is a postive development, IMO
This is a good day.
Hoping for resolution in this case for all of those who knew and loved Natalee Holloway.
Happy TG to you, too Heyes, and everyone.

Thanks JMO, Hope you and yours have a safe and wonderful Holiday!

This is positive news.
My gut feeling is this is why the Natalee in rehab BS story started circulating. Timing is everything!
Now let's hope aruba for once gets down to business and nails these obnoxious murder suspects! Like they should have done 2 years ago.
Wonder what the "new" evidence is?
IMO

[Heyes]

I am thrilled Heyes.. This has to be something Huge. I am so happy for the Holloway/Twitty family, they have hung in there all this time, and never gave up hope.

Beth must be beside herself with the news.

Aruba woudn't dare humilate themselves a second time, so they must have some solid evidence.

I'm sure Dave and Beth are waiting for the other shoe to drop. THis is aruba ya know. lol
But this is great news and maybe just maybe they will keep their butts in jail and hold a trial. crossing my fingers on this one.
:seeya:

[Heyes]

WHOO HOO !!!!

It truely is a time for "thanks giving" for the Holloway family.

imo


:beer:
You betcha!

[SukiJane]

Joe Tacopina, Greta, etc. on FOX news.

MOO


Driving home from work listening to Fox News on Satellite radio, Joe T is talking his usual, he doesn't know much of what is going on now, but no evidence of a crime against Joran, and he said something I had never heard...Joran passed a polygraph test? Is this more Joe T. BS?

Greta was on what seemed like to me, working for a VDS interview. Saying something about how persuasive Joran was when he did his interview with her, although he could have been lying, compared to his statement he was persuasive..all this according to Greta, and of course paraphrased. She also went on to say that she felt there was more evidence against the Kalpoes than against Joran...ugh!!

Julia Renfro was interviewed, when asked if remains had been found, she said no, when asked how she would know, she said that it would have made the news a long time ago. She thinks conflicting statements are the reason for the rearrests.

Mark F., thinks they have something pretty solid to bring in all three.

Bo D., agreed with Mark

All this according to my memory!

[Heyes]

Julia renfro ( ick) is saying that she was shocked and that each boy will be held seperately, no communication between them and then in a couple of days each will be interrogated. Hoping the chick got it right this time. :D

[Luke Davis]

Driving home from work listening to Fox News on Satellite radio, Joe T is talking his usual, he doesn't know much of what is going on now, but no evidence of a crime against Joran, and he said something I had never heard...Joran passed a polygraph test? Is this more Joe T. BS?

Greta was on what seemed like to me, working for a VDS interview. Saying something about how persuasive Joran was when he did his interview with her, although he could have been lying, compared to his statement he was persuasive..all this according to Greta, and of course paraphrased. She also went on to say that she felt there was more evidence against the Kalpoes than against Joran...ugh!!

Julia Renfro was interviewed, when asked if remains had been found, she said no, when asked how she would know, she said that it would have made the news a long time ago. She thinks conflicting statements are the reason for the rearrests.

Mark F., thinks they have something pretty solid to bring in all three.

Bo D., agreed with Mark

All this according to my memory!

Nice report SukiJane. I'm still thinking about the drugs. Sounds like involuntary manslaughter now.

Lots of wild speculation going on. I guess we'll know something solid Friday, from what I am hearing.


MOO

[No Nic]

Driving home from work listening to Fox News on Satellite radio, Joe T is talking his usual, he doesn't know much of what is going on now, but no evidence of a crime against Joran, and he said something I had never heard...Joran passed a polygraph test? Is this more Joe T. BS?

Greta was on what seemed like to me, working for a VDS interview. Saying something about how persuasive Joran was when he did his interview with her, although he could have been lying, compared to his statement he was persuasive..all this according to Greta, and of course paraphrased. She also went on to say that she felt there was more evidence against the Kalpoes than against Joran...ugh!!

Julia Renfro was interviewed, when asked if remains had been found, she said no, when asked how she would know, she said that it would have made the news a long time ago. She thinks conflicting statements are the reason for the rearrests.

Mark F., thinks they have something pretty solid to bring in all three.

Bo D., agreed with Mark

All this according to my memory!

LOL, about Julia's theory on re-arrest. NEW evidence is not the old conflicting statements BS. What is wrong with that woman? Why can't she just go away, her credibility is in the toilet and it is obvious with this latest and GREATEST news.

imo

[Heyes]

I don't know the official versions but I'm hearing the three were charged with involvement in the voluntary manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to Natalee Holloway.
I'm thinking temper, the only drugs that I think about are the ones joran possibly put in Natalee's drink when he went from one bar to another to get her that drink before he left with her. Glad to see his butt in jail again. Now all we need is paulus behind bars. Maybe we'll get that for Xmas? :D
IMO

[Heyes]

LOL, about Julia's theory on re-arrest. NEW evidence is not the old conflicting statements BS. What is wrong with that woman? Why can't she just go away, her credibility is in the toilet and it is obvious with this latest and GREATEST news.

imo

The arrests caught her off guard, maybe she was enjoying a few island drinks with the lizards before she went on air. lol lol
imo

[Luke Davis]

the arrests are in line with the Public Prosecutor’s decision to ultimately decide on the prosecution of the suspects in this case by the end of 2007.

Greta (http://gretawire.foxnews.com/)

[No Nic]

The arrests caught her off guard, maybe she was enjoying a few island drinks with the lizards before she went on air. lol lol
imo

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

[Luke Davis]

I don't know the official versions but I'm hearing the three were charged with involvement in the voluntary manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to Natalee Holloway.
I'm thinking temper, the only drugs that I think about are the ones joran possibly put in Natalee's drink when he went from one bar to another to get her that drink before he left with her. Glad to see his butt in jail again. Now all we need is paulus behind bars. Maybe we'll get that for Xmas? :D
IMO

If J2K gave Natalee drugs and she died wouldn't that be manslaughter? I'm thinking a drug dealer made a deal.

MOO

[chambord]

I heard voluntary, not involuntary. What's the difference, anyone?

[Luke Davis]

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

All the boards are busy and I am seeing posters I haven't seen in years. :hat:

[chambord]

Scuttlebut on some news is a boat was used to take Natalee's body to another island.


moo

[Grandad]

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands -- Three men who were previously detained as suspects in the 2005 disappearance of American teen Natalee Holloway have been re-arrested in the case, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said Wednesday.

Dutch teen Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe have been arrested on suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American, the prosecutor's office said in a statement.

Van der Sloot was arrested in the Netherlands, where he is attending university, and is expected to be extradited to Aruba. The Kalpoe brothers were arrested in the Dutch Caribbean island.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/14663242/detail.html?treets=fran&tml=fran_natlbreak&ts=T&tmi=fran_natlbreak_1_03270711212007

Since the report is inaccurate in that Joran will not be "extradited" I think it's fair to question the other "facts".

However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder.

[chambord]

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

I'm a missing person, but I lurked and didn't post. Couldn't take the Beth bashes any longer.

[Luke Davis]

I heard voluntary, not involuntary. What's the difference, anyone?I'm reading different reports, some from the same person. I think if J2K gave Natalee drugs and she died that would be involuntary. If they beat her that would be voluntary. MOO

:shrug:

[Grandad]

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

You might consider the possibility they may put J2K on trial on reduced charges so that a judge can officially pronounce them "not guilty" which would put an end to their involvement in the case.

[chambord]

I'm reading different reports, some from the same person. I think if J2K gave Natalee drugs and she died that would be involuntary. If they beat her that would be voluntary. MOO

:shrug:


Thanks Luke, Greta said *voluntary*.

moo

[FrankieBones1]

This is a happy day for a lot of us. Pinch me, someone! I want to make sure this isn't a dream.

[No Nic]

You might consider the possibility they may put J2K on trial on reduced charges so that a judge can officially pronounce them "not guilty" which would put an end to their involvement in the case.

You are free to consider anything you want.

I am going to hold out the hope that JK2 get exactly what they deserve. And, IMO, that is convicted of the crimes of the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Ann Holloway.....the same crimes that the investigators have led us to believe occured 2 1/2 years ago.

imo

[Luke Davis]

Thanks Luke, Greta said *voluntary*.

mooThanks chambord. I wonder if their system allows lesser charges like ours does?

[fairmaiden]

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

Well No Nic .... I haven't been on my computer all afternoon. Finishing up my Thanksgiving shopping .... cooking for about 20 tomorrow. Anyway .... I JUST saw the news on my MSN Home Page. Hopefully, we will get some answers .... I believe I said recently in a post .... I hope they either charge someone, or close this case .... it has been carrying on for a long time.

JMO

[Grandad]

You are free to consider anything you want.

I am going to hold out the hope that JK2 get exactly what they deserve. And, IMO, that is convicted of the crimes of the kidnap, rape and murder of Natalee Ann Holloway.....the same crimes that the investigators have led us to believe occured 2 1/2 years ago.

imo

You can hold out hope all you want, but the current reasonable suspicions don't include kidnap, rape or murder.

[Heyes]

Heyes, remember all the post about the Dutch investigators crossing all their t's and dotting all their i's so they could release JK2 as suspects.


Welllllllllll....looks like they DID cross all their t's and dot all their i's so they could ARREST JK2 and give justice to Natalee Ann Holloway and her family. I am doing the happy dance !!!!!!!!

(am I mistaken or do we have a few missing posters because of this breaking GOOD news?)

imo

maybe their at the airport awaiting the golden childs arrival. lol
I too am doing a happy dance, wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on the wall to see jorans face ( and papa sloots) when the police showed up?
I still don't trust this. Hopefully they won't be able to pull their shady doings if the Dutch are in charge of this one.
IMO

[Chocoholic]

I don't know the official versions but I'm hearing the three were charged with involvement in the voluntary manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to Natalee Holloway.
I'm thinking temper, the only drugs that I think about are the ones joran possibly put in Natalee's drink when he went from one bar to another to get her that drink before he left with her. Glad to see his butt in jail again. Now all we need is paulus behind bars. Maybe we'll get that for Xmas? :D
IMO


At the moment that is wishful thinking on your part. Nobody has been charged with anything, they have been detained for questioning. According to Dutch reports Joran turned himself in, he knew he was going to be detained.

I saw nn's post quoted, is it possible at all that some posters might still be working? I am.

[Heyes]

If J2K gave Natalee drugs and she died wouldn't that be manslaughter? I'm thinking a drug dealer made a deal.

MOO

very possible! One of jorans drug dealing posse members maybe?
IMO

[No Nic]

This is a happy day for a lot of us. Pinch me, someone! I want to make sure this isn't a dream.

Consider yourself pinched,Frankie. This is the day so many of us have been waiting for. I am just thrilled that at last it seems there is a real possibility that justice will prevail at long last.

imo

[chambord]

This is a happy day for a lot of us. Pinch me, someone! I want to make sure this isn't a dream.

Two years plus Frankie!!!

Greta is now saying involuntary manslaughter,, so I stand corrected.

Xmas comes early for Beth!!

[No Nic]

You can hold out hope all you want, but the current reasonable suspicions don't include kidnap, rape or murder.

That's what I am hoping for, I will settle for a prison sentence for voluntary manslaughter. Oh Yes!!! I most definately will !!!

[chambord]

very possible! One of jorans drug dealing posse members maybe?
IMO

I think a boat is a part of this. What was that young man's name, and then his family moved him to the Netherlands?

[chambord]

At the moment that is wishful thinking on your part. Nobody has been charged with anything, they have been detained for questioning. According to Dutch reports Joran turned himself in, he knew he was going to be detained.

I saw nn's post quoted, is it possible at all that some posters might still be working? I am.

Arrested! Is that what you call detained? Greta says they will appear in court friday, all three.

Best part, they will be kept in seperate cells.
moo

[Luke Davis]

Two years plus Frankie!!!

Greta is now saying involuntary manslaughter,, so I stand corrected.

Xmas comes early for Beth!!Involuntary indicates to me, that they gave her drugs but didn't intend to kill her. MOO

[Grandad]

That's what I am hoping for, I will settle for a prison sentence for voluntary manslaughter. Oh Yes!!! I most definately will !!!

Well, first he has to be charged, and then he's got to be found guilty of something, and then the sentence would have to be greater than time already served.

To me, that's a lot to hope for.

[No Nic]

Involuntary indicates to me, that they gave her drugs but didn't intend to kill her. MOO

Maybe there was no intent, but, imo, killed her none the less and disposed of her body as one would a piece of garbage and put her loved one through living HE!! for 2 1/2 years.

:rose:
Praying this will bring justice for Natalee and is not another Aruban misinformation campaign.

[Grandad]

Involuntary indicates to me, that they gave her drugs but didn't intend to kill her. MOO

Involuntary manslaughter might mean she fell out of the car while they were fooling around while driving around, and she was killed.

ETA after NoNic's last post, the body could have rolled down an embankment, so the "disposal" could have been as accidental as the death.

[No Nic]

Well, first he has to be charged, and then he's got to be found guilty of something, and then the sentence would have to be greater than time already served.

To me, that's a lot to hope for.

All in due time, Grandad, remember the wheels in Aruba roll very slow, but they are finally rolling, imo.

Justice is not "a lot to hope for".

imo

[Luke Davis]

Involuntary manslaughter might mean she fell out of the car while they were fooling around while driving around, and she was killed.

ETA after NoNic's last post, the body could have rolled down an embankment, so the "disposal" could have been as accidental as the death.Yes. But how could that be proved now?

[JustMyOpinion]

You might consider the possibility they may put J2K on trial on reduced charges so that a judge can officially pronounce them "not guilty" which would put an end to their involvement in the case.


??? If the Prosecutor brings a summation to court to try to prove lesser charges, why would the Judge officially pronounce them not guilty, IYO?
Wouldn't the Judge's verdict depend on the strength of the evidence the Prosecutor brings?

[chambord]

Fox News!!! Incriminating Evidence.

Dave is excited about this, as is Beth..Hoping things will move forward.

moo

[JustMyOpinion]

According to Dutch reports Joran turned himself in, he knew he was going to be detained.

.

WHich Dutch reports? Link, please.

[JustMyOpinion]

Since the report is inaccurate in that Joran will not be "extradited" I think it's fair to question the other "facts".

.


Who has stated he won't be extradited?

[Grandad]

Yes. But how could that be proved now?

Maybe Art Wood found another witness for Jossy.

[Grandad]

Who has stated he won't be extradited?

Because of the relationship between Aruba and the Netherlands extradition isn't necessary.

[JustMyOpinion]

Because of the relationship between Aruba and the Netherlands extradition isn't necessary.

Please post a link to a published source that states Joran will not be extradited to Aruba. TIA.
http://www.answers.com/topic/extradite

ex·tra·dite (ĕk'strə-dīt')

v., -dit·ed, -dit·ing, -dites.

v.tr.
To give up or deliver (a fugitive, for example) to the legal jurisdiction of another government or authority.

extradite

IN BRIEF: To deliver an accused person from one country or state to another country or state.

[Grandad]

All in due time, Grandad, remember the wheels in Aruba roll very slow, but they are finally rolling, imo.

Justice is not "a lot to hope for".

imo

Believe it or not, I want to see justice, I just don't think it will be found putting J2K on trial.

If there is actual evidence against them and they are found guilty, you don't have to worry I'll quit posting.

It may take another brand new nic, but you'll recognize my admission.

[Grandad]

Please post a link to a published source that states Joran will not be extradited to Aruba. TIA.

This has been discussed dozens of times .

Try Google.

[No Nic]

At the moment that is wishful thinking on your part. Nobody has been charged with anything, they have been detained for questioning. According to Dutch reports Joran turned himself in, he knew he was going to be detained.

I saw nn's post quoted, is it possible at all that some posters might still be working? I am.

Says Anita........Why Oh Why does Anita lie???


ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Three young men previously detained as suspects in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway were re-arrested Wednesday, the Aruban public prosecutor's office said, citing new evidence in the case.

Dutch student Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, were arrested on suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm that resulted in the death of Holloway, the prosecutor's office said in a statement.

However, van der Sloot's mother insisted her son had not been arrested but was only detained for more questioning.



eta the link
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312488,00.html

[Chocoholic]

Hans Mos, chief prosecutor in Aruba, declined to discuss the new evidence or any other details about the case.

Our intention is to keep them in detention for a longer period," he said.

Van der Sloot's mother, Anita, denied her son was arrested and said he was only taken into custody for more questioning. She said he wasn't put in handcuffs.

"What they want to do with Joran is to bring him to Aruba for a final reconstruction," Anita van der Sloot said by telephone from the family's home in Aruba.

She said her family and that of the Kalpoe brothers had also been questioned in recent weeks.

"The questions they asked were so obvious, things like, 'Why did Joran leave his shoes on the beach,'" she said, referring to the place where her son said he kissed Holloway alone before her disappearance. "I think it's ridiculous after two-and-a-half years to be doing this."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071122/D8T2CN001.html

[bchand]

Arrested! Is that what you call detained? Greta says they will appear in court friday, all three.

Best part, they will be kept in seperate cells.
moo

Hey there Cham:

Of course Joran's mother says he has NOT been arrested:

Van der Sloot was arrested in Arnhem, the Netherlands, by Dutch police, Kruimel said. Aruban authorities have asked for him to be extradited to Aruba within eight days.

Because they were not familiar with the case, Dutch police were not questioning Van der Sloot, she said. He will be questioned when he is brought back to Aruba, she said. However, he will appear before a judge Thursday in Arnhem.

Earlier, Van der Sloot's mother, Anita Van der Sloot, told CNN her son had not been arrested, but had only reported to a police station in the Netherlands for questioning Wednesday after receiving a letter asking him to do so.

Anita Van der Sloot said she had spoken to her son briefly from her home in Aruba. She said a Dutch attorney was with him, and she expected him to appear before a judge and be released Thursday.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest/index.html

[Chocoholic]

Please post a link to a published source that states Joran will not be extradited to Aruba. TIA.
http://www.answers.com/topic/extradite

ex·tra·dite (ĕk'strə-dīt')

v., -dit·ed, -dit·ing, -dites.

v.tr.
To give up or deliver (a fugitive, for example) to the legal jurisdiction of another government or authority.

extradite

IN BRIEF: To deliver an accused person from one country or state to another country or state.


Kingdom of the Netherlands includes Aruba. No extradition needed. This is also the reason that the Dutch police can question Joran and they could investigate in Aruba. I bet you knew that after following the case for 2 1/2 yrs.

[Grandad]

??? If the Prosecutor brings a summation to court to try to prove lesser charges, why would the Judge officially pronounce them not guilty, IYO?
Wouldn't the Judge's verdict depend on the strength of the evidence the Prosecutor brings?

Of course the judge's opinion would be based on the evidence.

The prosecutor may be being pressed to end the debacle.

A trial would end it, at least in the minds of most people.

[No Nic]

Hey there Cham:

Of course Joran's mother says he has NOT been arrested:

Van der Sloot was arrested in Arnhem, the Netherlands, by Dutch police, Kruimel said. Aruban authorities have asked for him to be extradited to Aruba within eight days.

Because they were not familiar with the case, Dutch police were not questioning Van der Sloot, she said. He will be questioned when he is brought back to Aruba, she said. However, he will appear before a judge Thursday in Arnhem.

Earlier, Van der Sloot's mother, Anita Van der Sloot, told CNN her son had not been arrested, but had only reported to a police station in the Netherlands for questioning Wednesday after receiving a letter asking him to do so.

Anita Van der Sloot said she had spoken to her son briefly from her home in Aruba. She said a Dutch attorney was with him, and she expected him to appear before a judge and be released Thursday.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest/index.html


Why Oh Why does Anita lie ?

[chambord]

Jossy Mansur is on NG. Defense lawyers and Arubian media have not been notified.

The Kalpoe bros will be in court on Friday with their atty.

According to Susan C., Joran appears in court in the Netherlands tomorrow.

moo

[Luke Davis]

Maybe Art Wood found another witness for Jossy.From the tidbits we are hearing it does sound like some sort of witness. I don't think the $1 million reward exist any longer which would mean to me some sort of deal. It could be all for nothing as we have seen so many times.

MOO

[Grandad]

From the tidbits we are hearing it does sound like some sort of witness. I don't think the $1 million reward exist any longer which would mean to me some sort of deal. It could be all for nothing as we have seen so many times.

MOO

I'm sure there won't be a resolution at this time.

[JustMyOpinion]

Kingdom of the Netherlands includes Aruba. No extradition needed. .


I disagree. Aruba is a nation with status aparte from the Kingdom.
Joran will be transferred ( extradited) to Aruba, IMO.

[ortiga]

From the tidbits we are hearing it does sound like some sort of witness. I don't think the $1 million reward exist any longer which would mean to me some sort of deal. It could be all for nothing as we have seen so many times.

MOO

The "reward" was just a bunch of pledges, wasn't it? If so, I doubt those people would ante up anymore, and wasn't Joe Mamana one of the reward donors? Or maybe that was another missing case.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

I disagree. Aruba is a nation with status aparte from the Kingdom.
Joran will be transferred ( extradited) to Aruba, IMO.

Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office, said van der Sloot could be sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing and the transfer would occur "within several days."

PostStar (http://www.poststar.com/articles/2007/11/21/ap/headlines/d8t2cn001.txt)

[Luke Davis]

The "reward" was just a bunch of pledges, wasn't it? If so, I doubt those people would ante up anymore, and wasn't Joe Mamana one of the reward donors? Or maybe that was another missing case.

IMOAs far as I know, there is no reward. AmSouth bank was merged. MOO

[Luke Davis]

breaking news video (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21919572/)

[Luke Davis]

CNN video 32 minutes ago (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest/index.html?section=cnn_latest#cnnSTCVideo)

[chambord]

Oh my heart be still, I am back in the presence of the great link master Luke.:patriot:

[No Nic]

New evidence In investigation Into disappearance of

Natalee Holloway

Three suspects arrested for the second time


Based on new evidence two brothers were arrested on Aruba this afternoon.
The two are supposed to be criminally involved in the disappearance of
Natalee Holloway end of May 2005. They are the 24 year old D.S.IC. and 21
year old S.S.IC. A third suspect in this criminal investigation was arrested at
the same time by the Dutch National Police Agency- The Aruban Public
Prosecutor’s Office had asked for his arrest. This suspect is the 20 year old
J.v.d. S.

The three suspects were already arrested in 2005 but their provisional arrest
was discontinued by the High Court of Justice because of insufficient
evidence.

The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary
manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to
Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.
The Public Prosecutor’s Office has ordered their renewed arrest because
further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating
evidence. This evidence necessitated the arrest of the suspects. Based on
this new evidence the judge of instruction ordered the custody of V.d. S
earlier today.

The coming days the men will be confronted with the new evidence.

After the investigation in this case came to a stand still by mid 2006. the
Arubari authorities asked the Netherlands for a professional second opinion
on the investigation so far. The Dutch National Police Agency subsequently
formed a team of detectives that by the end of 2006 re-investigated the case
by reviewing all the available results of the investigation. Based on the
results of this file study, the Dutch detectives came to Aruba from April
until the end of June 2006. In cooperation with detectives of the Aruban
Police Force KPA, further investigations were conducted. Since the
investigation was not completely finished and a few questions had to be
answered, the team of detectives returned to Aruba by mid October 2007 to
finish the investigation.

The arrests are in line with the Public Prosecutor’s decision to ultimately
decide on the prosecution of the suspects in this case by the end of 2007.
This intention was recently disclosed to both brothers.
The two brothers are momentarily detained for a period of two days- All
suspects have been imposed full restrictions in order to prevent them from
nialdng concerted statements to the Police.

Coming Friday the Public Prosecutor will ask the judge of instruction to
check the lawfull arrest and further detention of the two brothers. There
and then the new evidence will be presented to the judge~

The Public Prosecutor’s Office on Aruba sent a request to the National
Prosecutor’s Office In Rotterdam, the Netherlands, to execute the judges
order to arrest V.d. S. and subsequently bring him over to Aruba

V.d. S. was arrested in his house In Amhetn. lie will be led before a judge
in the Netherlands to check his lawful arrest.
V.d.S. will be transfered to Aruba as soon as possible. On Aruba be will
instantly be led before the judge that. ordered his custody. He then will be
heard on that order. His attorney will be able to attend that hearing.
Subsequently the Police will confront V.d. S. with the new evidence,
The duration of the custody is eight days, Within that term the Public
Prosecutor’s Office will decide on a request for prolongation of that
custody.
http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3028/8/
______________________________________


So much for being arrested for "conflicting statements" and/or "questioning". So much for Joran turning himself in to the authorities.

Why Oh Why does Anita LIE ?

[Jadedblueeyes]

breaking news video (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21919572/)

I think it is serious this time Luke.

Somebody finally rolled over imo and has something to back up what they are saying with new evidence.

Maybe they all did drugs that night and because Natalee had been drinking alcohol something happened while combining those two things together.

I really don't think they will ever find Natalee's body though. I have always thought she was tossed out to sea but I hope that I am wrong and maybe they do know what happened to her body and where Natalee is.

It also wouldn't surprise me if someone was there with them at the time and now has found the courage to talk to the Dutch investigators or maybe one of the Kalpoe brothers gave a piece of Natalee's jewelry to a girlfriend.

imoo

[Heyes]

CNN video 32 minutes ago (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest/index.html?section=cnn_latest#cnnSTCVideo)

Great links Luke, Thanks! :seeya:

[Heyes]

New evidence In investigation Into disappearance of

Natalee Holloway

Three suspects arrested for the second time


Based on new evidence two brothers were arrested on Aruba this afternoon.
The two are supposed to be criminally involved in the disappearance of
Natalee Holloway end of May 2005. They are the 24 year old D.S.IC. and 21
year old S.S.IC. A third suspect in this criminal investigation was arrested at
the same time by the Dutch National Police Agency- The Aruban Public
Prosecutor’s Office had asked for his arrest. This suspect is the 20 year old
J.v.d. S.

The three suspects were already arrested in 2005 but their provisional arrest
was discontinued by the High Court of Justice because of insufficient
evidence.

The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary
manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to
Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.
The Public Prosecutor’s Office has ordered their renewed arrest because
further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating
evidence. This evidence necessitated the arrest of the suspects. Based on
this new evidence the judge of instruction ordered the custody of V.d. S
earlier today.

The coming days the men will be confronted with the new evidence.

After the investigation in this case came to a stand still by mid 2006. the
Arubari authorities asked the Netherlands for a professional second opinion
on the investigation so far. The Dutch National Police Agency subsequently
formed a team of detectives that by the end of 2006 re-investigated the case
by reviewing all the available results of the investigation. Based on the
results of this file study, the Dutch detectives came to Aruba from April
until the end of June 2006. In cooperation with detectives of the Aruban
Police Force KPA, further investigations were conducted. Since the
investigation was not completely finished and a few questions had to be
answered, the team of detectives returned to Aruba by mid October 2007 to
finish the investigation.

The arrests are in line with the Public Prosecutor’s decision to ultimately
decide on the prosecution of the suspects in this case by the end of 2007.
This intention was recently disclosed to both brothers.
The two brothers are momentarily detained for a period of two days- All
suspects have been imposed full restrictions in order to prevent them from
nialdng concerted statements to the Police.

Coming Friday the Public Prosecutor will ask the judge of instruction to
check the lawfull arrest and further detention of the two brothers. There
and then the new evidence will be presented to the judge~

The Public Prosecutor’s Office on Aruba sent a request to the National
Prosecutor’s Office In Rotterdam, the Netherlands, to execute the judges
order to arrest V.d. S. and subsequently bring him over to Aruba

V.d. S. was arrested in his house In Amhetn. lie will be led before a judge
in the Netherlands to check his lawful arrest.
V.d.S. will be transfered to Aruba as soon as possible. On Aruba be will
instantly be led before the judge that. ordered his custody. He then will be
heard on that order. His attorney will be able to attend that hearing.
Subsequently the Police will confront V.d. S. with the new evidence,
The duration of the custody is eight days, Within that term the Public
Prosecutor’s Office will decide on a request for prolongation of that
custody.
http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3028/8/
______________________________________


So much for being arrested for "conflicting statements" and/or "questioning". So much for Joran turning himself in to the authorities.

Why Oh Why does Anita LIE ?

Interesting article. Thanks No Nic!

New incriminating evidence and manslaughter charges. Very interesting. Very Good news!
Does my heart good to know that all three are all settled in with their hot and their cot.
Anita needs to shut her mouth! She looks foolish.
IMO

[chambord]

Greta on now with Josey Manzur.

[Heyes]

WHOA JQK seems to know what this new evidence is.
not testimony in nature, it's forensic.
Wonder if it was something from the vandersloot house.
That was one place NO ONE was allowed to look......until the Dutch!
IMO

[Luke Davis]

I think it is serious this time Luke.

Somebody finally rolled over imo and has something to back up what they are saying with new evidence.

Maybe they all did drugs that night and because Natalee had been drinking alcohol something happened while combining those two things together.

I really don't think they will ever find Natalee's body though. I have always thought she was tossed out to sea but I hope that I am wrong and maybe they do know what happened to her body and where Natalee is.

It also wouldn't surprise me if someone was there with them at the time and now has found the courage to talk to the Dutch investigators or maybe one of the Kalpoe brothers gave a piece of Natalee's jewelry to a girlfriend.

imoo

So many rumors all over the blogs. The one I like best is four Columbians, paid to dump a body on their way to Barbados.

I can believe the jewelry one but not sure what it proves. In the last photo of her, I can't see any jewelry. It appears she has a drink bracelet and maybe a prayer bracelet. But maybe she has earrings I can't see.

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/060322/060322_holloway_vmed_6p.widec.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/72/158111438_79952ca7f7.jpg

[chambord]

Looks like either way joran is going to aruba!
In cuffs!
;)
imo


Music to my ears, I have waited more than two years to hear that.

[No Nic]

Looks like either way joran is going to aruba!
In cuffs!
;)
imo

He looks so good in them, kinda looks natural. :D

imo

[chambord]

WHOA JQK seems to know what this new evidence is.
not testimony in nature, it's forensic.
Wonder if it was something from the vandersloot house.
That was one place NO ONE was allowed to look......until the Dutch!
IMO

Yup a legal pundit on a cable show alluded to that tonight, that the Dutch forensic team found something convincing at the Van der Sloops residence.



moo

[Chocoholic]

Music to my ears, I have waited more than two years to hear that.

Will you be devastated if there still aren't any charges forthcoming and Joran isn't taken to Aruba in cuffs. I think you might wish to ready yourself for that.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

http://www.aruba.com/about/judicialsystem.php


26. Pre-trial detention possible in cases of felonies in case that there are:

“... facts and/or circumstances that can justify a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a(ny) criminal act ...”

27. Various phases of detention

- Detention (“aanhouding”): detention for up to six (6) hours; followed by release or

- Arrest/detention (“inverzekeringstelling”): per order of the prosecutor plus 2 X 48 hours

- Examining-judge review of the procedural legality of the first 72 hours of detention

- Detention (“bewaring”): extension of 8 days (so far total 10 days)

- Detention (“gevangenhouding”): extensions and subsequent extensions, possibly leading up to the date of the trial

Arrest happens when a person is actually charged with a crime. Hasn't happened.

No link to my knowledge of Dutch.

[Luke Davis]

scroll down for English (http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3028/8/)

The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary

manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to

Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office has ordered their renewed arrest because

further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating

evidence. This evidence necessitated the arrest of the suspects. Based on

this new evidence the judge of instruction ordered the custody of V.d. S

earlier today.

The coming days the men will be confronted with the new evidence.

[No Nic]

scroll down for English (http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3028/8/)

The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary

manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to

Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office has ordered their renewed arrest because

further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating

evidence. This evidence necessitated the arrest of the suspects. Based on

this new evidence the judge of instruction ordered the custody of V.d. S

earlier today.

The coming days the men will be confronted with the new evidence.



Key words in red.

And I do believe this is an Aruban or Dutch publication, not US spin as some would like to make it.

Why Oh Why does Anita lie?

imo

[Luke Davis]

Key words in red.

And I do believe this is an Aruban or Dutch publication, not US spin as some would like to make it.

Why Oh Why does Anita lie?

imo

Thanks No Nic, very colorful. Gets me in that holiday mood.:hat:

[No Nic]

Thanks No Nic, very colorful. Gets me in that holiday mood.:hat:

LOL, I should have added green, Christmas-ey.

[Chocoholic]

I disagree. Aruba is a nation with status aparte from the Kingdom.
Joran will be transferred ( extradited) to Aruba, IMO.

He will not be extradited, at best Aruba can ask for him to be transferred. A judge will need to decide whether that is necessary or not.

Extradition is possible between countries which have an extradition agreement, Aruba falls under the Kingdom of the Netherlands and extradition is not necessary. Information available all over Google.

[SukiJane]

Nice report SukiJane. I'm still thinking about the drugs. Sounds like involuntary manslaughter now.

Lots of wild speculation going on. I guess we'll know something solid Friday, from what I am hearing.


MOO

Drugs, not much doubt in my mind. We've heard drugs throughout this case, from Dave being warned to cover his drink, to Natalee being in a crackhouse, to someone determining the cause of death by drug overdose months ago. Of course and then the blame the victim spin and ridiculous rumors, in my opinion, of Natalee being on drugs and in a rehab prior to her Aruban trip. It seems to me that maybe ALE has known all along that someone gave her something that caused her death. Now what could this new incriminating evidence be? I guess we'll just have to wait and see what materializes in the next few days.

jmo

[Heyes]

He will not be extradited, at best Aruba can ask for him to be transferred. A judge will need to decide whether that is necessary or not.

Extradition is possible between countries which have an extradition agreement, Aruba falls under the Kingdom of the Netherlands and extradition is not necessary. Information available all over Google.


Who cares???
All that matters is his butt goes from a jail cot where he is, to one in aruba. Hope he has a nice holiday season with his TV and a couple of books, Hey maybe even his mommy can visit from time to time.
This new information has certainly made our holidays a bit brighter.
Wonder what paulus has to say I noticed he's been very quiet. He was in Holland with his boy right?
Probably scared he's next. lol
We can dream can't we?
Now why is anita lying again?
IMO

[Chocoholic]

Who cares???
All that matters is his butt goes from a jail cot where he is, to one in aruba. Hope he has a nice holiday season with his TV and a couple of books, Hey maybe even his mommy can visit from time to time.
This new information has certainly made our holidays a bit brighter.
Wonder what paulus has to say I noticed he's been very quiet. He was in Holland with his boy right?
Probably scared he's next. lol
We can dream can't we?
Now why is anita lying again?
IMO

Aruba and the Netherlands don't celebrate your thanksgiving. No bubblebusting there.

Link to Anita lying please.

[No Nic]

Nieuw bewijsmateriaal’ verdwijning Holloway - Broers Kalpoe en Joran opnieuw aangehouden
New evidence into disappearance Holloway - Kalpoe brothers and Joran are again under arrest.
21 Nov, 2007, 18:35 (GMT -04:00)

ORANJESTAD — Joran van der Sloot en de broers Deepak en Satish Kalpoe zijn opnieuw aangehouden in de verdwijningszaak van de Amerikaanse tiener Natalee Holloway in mei 2005 op Aruba. Ze worden nu verdacht van betrokkenheid bij doodslag dan wel zware mishandeling de dood ten gevolge hebbend. Dit op basis van ‘nieuw bewijsmateriaal’ dat boven water kwam tijdens recent onderzoek, waarbij ook Nederlandse rechercheurs waren betrokken.
ORANJESTAD - Joran van der Sloot and the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe have been arrested again in the disappearance-case of the American teen Natalee Holloway, who disappeared in May 2005 on Aruba. They are now being suspected of being involved in the manslaughter or grievious bodily harm leading to death. The arrest was based on "new evidence" that has surfaced during recent investigations in which also Dutch detectives were involved.

Het Openbaar Ministerie van Aruba meldde woensdagmiddag lokale tijd dat het bewijsmateriaal zodanig is dat een aanhouding van de verdachten noodzakelijk was. De broers Kalpoe moeten voorlopig twee dagen de cel in. Joran werd in zijn woning in Arnhem in Nederland aangehouden. Het OM had hiervoor de hulp ingeroepen van het Landelijk Parket in Rotterdam.
The DA's office on Aruba reported Wednesday afternoon local time that the evidence found is of such a nature that the arrest of the three suspects was necessary. The Kalpoe brothers are now detained for 2 days. Joran was arrested in his home in Arnhem the Netherlands. The DA's office had asked for the help of the National District Attorneys Bureau in Rotterdam in order to arrange the arrest.

Hij wordt eerst voorgeleid aan een rechter-commissaris in Nederland en zal daarna zo snel mogelijk naar Aruba worden overgebracht. Ook hier wordt hij opnieuw in voorarrest geplaatst voor ten minste acht dagen en het OM wil hem zo snel mogelijk verhoren over het nieuwe bewijsmateriaal.
He will first be brought in fro nt of a judge-commissionar in the Netherlands and then will be transported to Aruba as soon as possible. When he arrives here he will be remanded to jail again for a minimum of eight days and the DA's office wants him questioned about the new evidence as soon as possible.

Het is niet bekend of dit nieuwe bewijsmateriaal is gevonden bij het ouderlijk huis van Joran op Aruba. Eind april zocht een twintigtal forensisch technisch experts uit Nederland opnieuw naar sporen in het huis en de omgeving.
It is not known whether this new evidence has been found at the parental house of Joran on Aruba. At the end of April about 20 or so forensic experts from the Netherlands did another search in and near the house for trace evidence.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37046.php

.

Wonder why K2 are to be held for min. of 2 days and Joran to be held for a min. of 8? Same as last time, Joran gets you enjoy lock-up for the longest time.
imo

[Chocoholic]

Drugs, not much doubt in my mind. We've heard drugs throughout this case, from Dave being warned to cover his drink, to Natalee being in a crackhouse, to someone determining the cause of death by drug overdose months ago. Of course and then the blame the victim spin and ridiculous rumors, in my opinion, of Natalee being on drugs and in a rehab prior to her Aruban trip. It seems to me that maybe ALE has known all along that someone gave her something that caused her death. Now what could this new incriminating evidence be? I guess we'll just have to wait and see what materializes in the next few days.

jmo

Dompig was the one that stated that he received information that Natalee was in possession of drugs. Links easily available on Google.

New evidence? Certainly the THs in the US had a field day, great for ratings.

Any links that show evidence that Natalee is dead?

[SukiJane]

Who cares???
All that matters is his butt goes from a jail cot where he is, to one in aruba. Hope he has a nice holiday season with his TV and a couple of books, Hey maybe even his mommy can visit from time to time.
This new information has certainly made our holidays a bit brighter.
Wonder what paulus has to say I noticed he's been very quiet. He was in Holland with his boy right?
Probably scared he's next. lol
We can dream can't we?
Now why is anita lying again?
IMO

Aint that the truth Heyes. What happened to the general idea on this board that if there is evidence against Joran, no one would have a problem with it. Now there are reports of maybe some evidence, and it seems to me that some here refuse to believe it. Dang, let's just wait and see what pans out here, instead of still trying to defend Joran...good grief!

What's up with Anita saying Joran turned himself in, and if that is true goodness sakes why in the world would he know he's about to be arrested. As much as I despise Julia Renfro, earlier today she did say something that made sense, and that being that Joran and Kalpoes were arrested at the same time so that no one would get any warnings. Joran being arrested this morning, and the Kalpoes being arrested this afternoon, due to the time difference. Wonder why we didn't get word this morning that Joran was arrested, but then again, is Joran getting special treatment and maybe got some kind of warning?

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Aint that the truth Heyes. What happened to the general idea on this board that if there is evidence against Joran, no one would have a problem with it. Now there are reports of maybe some evidence, and it seems to me that some here refuse to believe it. Dang, let's just wait and see what pans out here <snip>

jmo

I feel that the overwhelming emotion still is, damn the torpedoes, full force ahead. Regardless of whether there is any evidence, let's hang the boys.

I've always stated that IF and that's a huge IF there is ANY evidence to show that any of the persons of interest might be involved in a crime which killed Natalee, they should pay for it. Instead a group that defends the ideology of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty in a Court of Law" held so highly under the US Constitution is thrown out in another country, simply because the laws aren't understood.

If you don't understand the laws of another country, fine, then at least accept them. I don't see anybody here fighting the fact that persons may be held for up to two years without being charged, something utterly unheard of under US law.

Whether you like it or not, arrest is not the same as detention, and being held for questioning is not the same as an arrest.

Please Google the differences.

[SukiJane]

(snipped)
New evidence? Certainly the THs in the US had a field day, great for ratings.

(snipped)



Haven't you been the one stating all along that if there was any new evidence found by the Dutch, J2K would be arrested. Well they are arrested...evidence?

jmo

[Heyes]

Dompig was the one that stated that he received information that Natalee was in possession of drugs. Links easily available on Google.

New evidence? Certainly the THs in the US had a field day, great for ratings.

Any links that show evidence that Natalee is dead?


Soooo, you think SuperBeth and the US media dreamed up this new evidence? LMAO
ARUBA'S prosecutor said,
Dutch teenager Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, were arrested on suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American.
MANSLAUGHTER, SERIOUS BODILY HARM THAT CAUSED THE DEATH OF THE 18-year-old American.
read it and weep.
Maybe it's time to take another look at aruba's top lying sporter eh?
:patriot: justice for Natalee at last ( we hope)
imo

[No Nic]

Really conflicting information about extradition. It is being posted here that there is no extradition from Holland to Aruba. Then we have JoeT on Greta saying Joran will waive extradition and we have this Dutch official being quoted in a statement. Please don't tell me it is a "translation" problem......AGAIN. :rolleyes:

Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office, said van der Sloot could be sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing and the transfer would occur "within several days."

http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/22/Worldandnation/3_are_arrested_in_Aru.shtml

:shrug:

[Grandad]

<snip>
What happened to the general idea on this board that if there is evidence against Joran, no one would have a problem with it. Now there are reports of maybe some evidence, and it seems to me that some here refuse to believe it.

<snip>

Nothing happened to that idea.

We're merely waiting to see some evidence. Any evidence.

[Grandad]

Really conflicting information about extradition. It is being posted here that there is no extradition from Holland to Aruba. Then we have JoeT on Greta saying Joran will waive extradition and we have this Dutch official being quoted in a statement. Please don't tell me it is a "translation" problem......AGAIN. :rolleyes:



http://www.sptimes.com/2007/11/22/Worldandnation/3_are_arrested_in_Aru.shtml

:shrug:

Why would you not believe a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office?

Did Joe T ever claim to be licensed to practice law in Aruba?

[Chocoholic]

Haven't you been the one stating all along that if there was any new evidence found by the Dutch, J2K would be arrested. Well they are arrested...evidence?

jmo

Prosecution asked for the arrest, on Friday a judge will deem whether there is enough evidence. That's how things work.

[Heyes]

Why would you not believe a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office?

Did Joe T ever claim to be licensed to practice law in Aruba?

From what I've seen of joe T in the courtroom, I'm thinking he shouldn't be licensed to practice law anywhere. lmao!
His last client may agree.
IMO

[Chocoholic]

From what I've seen of joe T in the courtroom, I'm thinking he shouldn't be licensed to practice law anywhere. lmao!
His last client may agree.
IMO
His last client might, but the twittys aren't talking about any lawsuits in NY are they?

[No Nic]

Why would you not believe a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office?

Did Joe T ever claim to be licensed to practice law in Aruba?

Point is if there is no extradition in Aruba, why would a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office even mention Joran being sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing?

If JoeT doesn't know what he is talking about, then he shouldn't be spouting it on national TV, but I have never yet seen that stop him yet. :biggrin:

imo

[Grandad]

Point is if there is no extradition in Aruba, why would a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office even mention Joran being sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing?

If JoeT doesn't know what he is talking about, then he shouldn't be spouting it on national TV, but I have never yet seen that stop him yet. :biggrin:

imo

The spokesman was making the point extradition is not necessary.

Have you ever seen a lack of knowledge or information stop any of the talking heads?

[Chocoholic]

The spokesman was making the point extradition is not necessary.

Have you ever seen a lack of knowledge or information stop any of the talking heads?

Nope, it doesn't stop any of them. I remember the guy from Dog the Bounty Hunter saying he was going to "git Joran", IIRC on Larry King. Lotta good that'll do since he wasn't out on bail. It was great for a darn good laugh though.

[Chocoholic]

HUH?
I think there is evidence, heck I think there is enough circumstantial at this point to hold a trial, body or not.
I am not insulting you I merely think you need to look up some of the key words the prosecutor used in the statement released today. Do you want to be called aruban? lol lol lol
So if there is new evidence, the judge holds them, then what? Will you rethink the lying sporter and his very possible involvement in Natalee's death?
IMO
I don't care what you call me. I do know what I am talking about and whether I'm American, Mexican, English or any other nationality, what you believe of me is of no importance to me.

Regardless of what YOU think is enough (circumstantial) evidence or not, what is important is that the judges will feel the same. The judges have disagreed with the prosecution previously. Please remember that these judges were not from Aruba.

[Chocoholic]

Once again.
Who Cares??
your mincing words is getting boring.
surely people know what I mean without adding the word investigators or whatever it is you seek.:rolleyes:
imo

It's not mincing words.

Extradition is not transfer.
Detention isn't arrest.
Arrest isn't laying charges.

Correct communication is important.

[Chocoholic]

so if this new evidence is enough to hold them will you rethink your position on the lying sporter?

If there is enough evidence of a crime having been committed and any of the suspects are convicted you bet I will rethink my position on any of the persons of interest.

It is my opinion that you use the word "sporter" as a derogatory term in the context of Joran and this case and I shall report and request that this no longer be used. It was a word his mother used to describe him as a person who partakes in sports.

[No Nic]

If there is enough evidence of a crime having been committed and any of the suspects are convicted you bet I will rethink my position on any of the persons of interest.

It is my opinion that you use the word "sporter" as a derogatory term in the context of Joran and this case and I shall report and request that this no longer be used. It was a word his mother used to describe him as a person who partakes in sports.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

After all the truly derogatory comments made about Natalee and her mother on this board, offense is taken by the word "sporter". LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[fairmaiden]

Nothing happened to that idea.

We're merely waiting to see some evidence. Any evidence.

Grandad .... You're right .... I posted earlier, in the midst of preparing for Thanksgiving .... maybe now we'll get some answers. Like you, I'm waiting to see some evidence. Not much different than it was before.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Grandad .... You're right .... I posted earlier, in the midst of preparing for Thanksgiving .... maybe now we'll get some answers. Like you, I'm waiting to see some evidence. Not much different than it was before.

JMO


It's in the Aruban prosecutor's office's hands now. It's up to them to show that there is enough evidence not only to detain them again but also to detain them long enough for further questioning or to lay charges and for the judges to agree with the evidence put before them.

[Heyes]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

After all the truly derogatory comments made about Natalee and her mother on this board, offense is taken by the word "sporter". LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL


But no offense was taken to "lying". lol go figure:shrug:

It is such a treat to turn on the TV today and hear that for at least a couple of nights joran and the kalpoes are locked up again. I was happy to see this all over every news station and on newsbreaks today. This story is front and center and it's amazing how the public is responding. This time hopefully Natalee's family will have some sort of closure.
IMO

[cassidy]

Grandad .... You're right .... I posted earlier, in the midst of preparing for Thanksgiving .... maybe now we'll get some answers. Like you, I'm waiting to see some evidence. Not much different than it was before.

JMO

I totally agree with you and Grandad. I will reserve judgement until the evidence is brought forth. My stance remains the same as it has always been. If it turns out that J2K (or any one of them) was responsible for the death of Natalee, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Drugs, not much doubt in my mind. We've heard drugs throughout this case, from Dave being warned to cover his drink, to Natalee being in a crackhouse, to someone determining the cause of death by drug overdose months ago. Of course and then the blame the victim spin and ridiculous rumors, in my opinion, of Natalee being on drugs and in a rehab prior to her Aruban trip. It seems to me that maybe ALE has known all along that someone gave her something that caused her death. Now what could this new incriminating evidence be? I guess we'll just have to wait and see what materializes in the next few days.

jmo
Based on my interpretation and memory, and all paraphrased:
Last night Greta ( On the Record, Fox News) interviewed Jossy Mansur by phone. Jossy said Diario had been unable to get any information about the new incriminating evidence. Greta interviewed Dave Holloway who said a legal attache from the FBI telephoned him with the news J2K were detained, and any questions he had were not answered. Dave said the ship leaves Monday, that he has been on the ship to see the equipment & capabilities, that this is a project he's been working on for 2 years, that he has no doubt if Natalee is in the ocean, this ship will locate her remains. He would not offer specifics on the precise locations where the ship will search, he said TES would have that information. Greta interviewed John Q Kelly. He said he was not entirely surprised J2K were detained, but he did not expect it to occur yesterday. He said he has a good idea about what the new incriminating evidence is, but wouldn't give specifics. He said he thinks it is something forensic vs testimonial, that he's discussed it before on Greta's program, that he thinks it is something that required cooperative efforts from multi-agencies. Greta interviewed Joe Tacopina, who said Joran is in custody and continues to affirm his innocence. He said he hasn't spoken with Joran, but has spoken to his parents.
The above is all paraphrased, and based on my interpretation and recollection of interviews conducted by Greta On the Record 11/21/07.

[fairmaiden]

I totally agree with you and Grandad. I will reserve judgement until the evidence is brought forth. My stance remains the same as it has always been. If it turns out that J2K (or any one of them) was responsible for the death of Natalee, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

JMO

Happy thanksgiving, cassidy. I found it quite interesting, especially listening to Susan Candiotti (sp). Her entire report on this was speculation. She really had no idea WHY they were picked up .... other than .... apparently there is some new evidence. No one knows what the evidence is. Perhaps it could be something they found while digging up the VDS property. "We don't know any of the details yet, she said . "Perhaps they are just conducting a final round of questioning before closing this case".

It's amazing to me that the US "reporters of news" are not required to get FACTS before reporting on something like this.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Based on my interpretation and memory, and all paraphrased:
Last night Greta ( On the Record, Fox News) interviewed Jossy Mansur by phone. Jossy said Diario had been unable to get any information about the new incriminating evidence. Greta interviewed Dave Holloway who said a legal attache from the FBI telephoned him with the news J2K were detained, and any questions he had were not answered. Dave said the ship leaves Monday, that he has been on the ship to see the equipment & capabilities, that this is a project he's been working on for 2 years, that he has no doubt if Natalee is in the ocean, this ship will locate her remains. He would not offer specifics on the precise locations where the ship will search, he said TES would have that information. Greta interviewed John Q Kelly. He said he was not entirely surprised J2K were detained, but he did not expect it to occur yesterday. He said he has a good idea about what the new incriminating evidence is, but wouldn't give specifics. He said he thinks it is something forensic vs testimonial, that he's discussed it before on Greta's program, that he thinks it is something that required cooperative efforts from multi-agencies. Greta interviewed Joe Tacopina, who said Joran is in custody and continues to affirm his innocence. He said he hasn't spoken with Joran, but has spoken to his parents.
The above is all paraphrased, and based on my interpretation and recollection of interviews conducted by Greta On the Record 11/21/07.

Thank you, JMO. I am assuming this is something Tim Miller is doing. Did they mention anything about the ship ?? Who is providing the ship ?? Something Grandad said yesterday interested me .... something about the FBI not having this kind of "specialized equipment". I wonder if this is a ship being provided by the Navy ??

JMO

[AMS80]

Since the report is inaccurate in that Joran will not be "extradited" I think it's fair to question the other "facts".

However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder.

Oh for Heaven's sake...

IMO.

[Chocoholic]

But no offense was taken to "lying". lol go figure:shrug:

<snip>
IMO

We know that Joran lied, so does beth, but for beth's lies there is still no explanation.

[ortiga]

Based on my interpretation and memory, and all paraphrased:
Last night Greta ( On the Record, Fox News) interviewed Jossy Mansur by phone. Jossy said Diario had been unable to get any information about the new incriminating evidence. Greta interviewed Dave Holloway who said a legal attache from the FBI telephoned him with the news J2K were detained, and any questions he had were not answered. Dave said the ship leaves Monday, that he has been on the ship to see the equipment & capabilities, that this is a project he's been working on for 2 years, that he has no doubt if Natalee is in the ocean, this ship will locate her remains. He would not offer specifics on the precise locations where the ship will search, he said TES would have that information. Greta interviewed John Q Kelly. He said he was not entirely surprised J2K were detained, but he did not expect it to occur yesterday. He said he has a good idea about what the new incriminating evidence is, but wouldn't give specifics. He said he thinks it is something forensic vs testimonial, that he's discussed it before on Greta's program, that he thinks it is something that required cooperative efforts from multi-agencies. Greta interviewed Joe Tacopina, who said Joran is in custody and continues to affirm his innocence. He said he hasn't spoken with Joran, but has spoken to his parents.
The above is all paraphrased, and based on my interpretation and recollection of interviews conducted by Greta On the Record 11/21/07.

That seems to be a fair summary from what has been reported, also there is some doubt as to whether Joran was taken into custody from his home, or whether he went voluntarily to the police station in Arnheim.

And don't forget the part, paraphrased, where Greta admitted she had spread misinformation...about the supposed trial before the end of 2007. She went on international TV to spout off before she even had a copy, in English, of the prosecutors statement.
:rolleyes:

IMO

[ortiga]

Oh for Heaven's sake...

IMO.

Grandad is absolutely correct:

"However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder."

What happened to the "kidnapping rape and murder"......that was just a big todo about nothing? So, if the characterization is true that the Dutch put out a laundry list of suspected offenses to eventually narrow it down to the one they really DO suspect, here we are with something pretty vague....and, despite what some of the uninformed American media say.....not yet even "charged" with these greatly diminished, still suspected, crimes.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

Grandad is absolutely correct:

"However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder."

What happened to the "kidnapping rape and murder"......that was just a big todo about nothing? So, if the characterization is true that the Dutch put out a laundry list of suspected offenses to eventually narrow it down to the one they really DO suspect, here we are with something pretty vague....and, despite what some of the uninformed American media say.....not yet even "charged" with these greatly diminished, still supposed, crimes.

IMO

Please don't forget that they detain persons of interest with the highest suspected crime they can and start working down from there.

I still say let's wait and see what the OM has for the judges.

[JustMyOpinion]

. I found it quite interesting, especially listening to Susan Candiotti (sp). Her entire report on this was speculation. She really had no idea WHY they were picked up .... other than .... apparently there is some new evidence. No one knows what the evidence is. Perhaps it could be something they found while digging up the VDS property. "We don't know any of the details yet, she said . "Perhaps they are just conducting a final round of questioning before closing this case".

It's amazing to me that the US "reporters of news" are not required to get FACTS before reporting on something like this.

JMO

It is a fact that Aruban/Dutch authorities report they were arrested, and also reported they have new evidence, so I don't see what is speculative about Candiotti's reporting this information, JMO.
It is an apparent to me that thus far that no information has been released by authorities about what the actual evidence is. Again, this is accurate reporting, IMO.
The other two statements you paraphrased are speculative, which is why Candiotti utilized a word like "perhaps" IMO.
Responsible reporting, IMO.

[Chocoholic]

It is a fact that Aruban/Dutch authorities report they were arrested, and also reported they have new evidence, so I don't see what is speculative about Candiotti's reporting this information, JMO.
It is an apparent to me that thus far that no information has been released by authorities about what the actual evidence is. Again, this is accurate reporting, IMO.
The other two statements you paraphrased are speculative, which is why Candiotti utilized a word like "perhaps" IMO.
Responsible reporting, IMO.

Link for Dutch and Aruban reports that state they were arrested please. The ones I read stated they were detained, pending evidence presented to judges.

[ortiga]

Please don't forget that they detain persons of interest with the highest suspected crime they can and start working down from there.

I still say let's wait and see what the OM has for the judges.

You're right, of course !!

Even this latest suspected crime may be the top of the laundry list.

Seems like they'll have a hard time reverting back up the ladder to rape, kidnapping and murder.

[ortiga]

John Gibson / November 21, 2007
thanks to Heli from RU for transcribing

Greta:

Frankly I have no idea what they have. They have gotten us all excited before with arrests and everything so I'm hesitant to get too enthusiastic that there can be justice for Natalee and find out what happened to her. And look, over all, remember on our show we spent a lot of time talking to Joran van der Sloot and a lot of people including myself having spoken to him, listening to his story and putting it against some of the evidence, we thought his story was a rather persuasive one. Now he could have been lying to us but we thought he was persuasive.

I have remained very suspicious of the Kalpoe brothers, much more so than Joran van der Sloot so it could be maybe Joran van der Sloot is involved, maybe he's not, maybe they're all involved, we just don't know. All we know tonight is that something has drastically changed and that's that the three young men who were originally suspects are back in custody facing voluntary manslaughter charges, if you believe what we've been told is a translation of the press release and that they're going to go to trial and that there's 'new evidence' That's all we know.

[Grandad]

It is a fact that Aruban/Dutch authorities report they were arrested, and also reported they have new evidence, so I don't see what is speculative about Candiotti's reporting this information, JMO.
It is an apparent to me that thus far that no information has been released by authorities about what the actual evidence is. Again, this is accurate reporting, IMO.
The other two statements you paraphrased are speculative, which is why Candiotti utilized a word like "perhaps" IMO.
Responsible reporting, IMO.

How many times in the past has the prosecutor gone to court with "new evidence", only to have the judge ultimately release all the suspects for lack of evidence?

Considering there have been 10 suspects, I would say a minimum of 20 times. Frankly, I don't think the 21st, or 35th , or whatever the actual number is, will be any different.

[Grandad]

Grandad is absolutely correct:

"However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder."

What happened to the "kidnapping rape and murder"......that was just a big todo about nothing? So, if the characterization is true that the Dutch put out a laundry list of suspected offenses to eventually narrow it down to the one they really DO suspect, here we are with something pretty vague....and, despite what some of the uninformed American media say.....not yet even "charged" with these greatly diminished, still suspected, crimes.

IMO

It should also be pointed out that the original "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" has changed to "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter or causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American."

My guess is the American equivalent would be the difference between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter.

It's not unusual for someone convicted of involuntary manslaughter to get a suspended sentence or probation only.

[Heyes]

Originally Posted by Grandad
Since the report is inaccurate in that Joran will not be "extradited" I think it's fair to question the other "facts".

However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder.



Oh for Heaven's sake...

IMO.

LOL I know,
just because someone was involved in voluntary manslaughter causing serious bodily harm that caused the death of a young woman doesn't mean they are guilty of killing anyone. LMAO!
such excuses for the lying sporter.
Have you noticed that the new spin is that joran isn't at fault at all. It's only the Kalpoes??? lol lol Too funny.
The other spin is that joran turned himself in voluntarily, lol lol
Oh why, oh why does anita lie sooooo much.
Wonder if anita has to follow paulus around with an over sized beach towel this time. He must be swearing buckets. lol
IMO

[Luke Davis]

Happy Turkey Day all.

Watching the morning shows here and it is a little confusing. Some saying "involuntary" others saying "voluntary." A ship for Equusearch leaves Louisianna, November 26, for the Aruba search.


No links from tv and radio reports.

MOO

[No Nic]

This is not US media spin.

New evidence In investigation Into disappearance of

Natalee Holloway

Three suspects arrested for the second time



Based on new evidence two brothers were arrested on Aruba this afternoon.

The two are supposed to be criminally involved in the disappearance of

Natalee Holloway end of May 2005. They are the 24 year old D.S.IC. and 21

year old S.S.IC. A third suspect in this criminal investigation was arrested at

the same time by the Dutch National Police Agency- The Aruban Public

Prosecutor’s Office had asked for his arrest. This suspect is the 20 year old

J.v.d. S.

The three suspects were already arrested in 2005 but their provisional arrest

was discontinued by the High Court of Justice because of insufficient

evidence.



The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary

manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to

Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office has ordered their renewed arrest because

further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating

evidence. This evidence necessitated the arrest of the suspects. Based on

this new evidence the judge of instruction ordered the custody of V.d. S

earlier today.

The coming days the men will be confronted with the new evidence.



After the investigation in this case came to a stand still by mid 2006. the

Arubari authorities asked the Netherlands for a professional second opinion

on the investigation so far. The Dutch National Police Agency subsequently

formed a team of detectives that by the end of 2006 re-investigated the case

by reviewing all the available results of the investigation. Based on the

results of this file study, the Dutch detectives came to Aruba from April

until the end of June 2006. In cooperation with detectives of the Aruban

Police Force KPA, further investigations were conducted. Since the

investigation was not completely finished and a few questions had to be

answered, the team of detectives returned to Aruba by mid October 2007 to

finish the investigation.



The arrests are in line with the Public Prosecutor’s decision to ultimately

decide on the prosecution of the suspects in this case by the end of 2007.

This intention was recently disclosed to both brothers.

The two brothers are momentarily detained for a period of two days- All

suspects have been imposed full restrictions in order to prevent them from

nialdng concerted statements to the Police.



Coming Friday the Public Prosecutor will ask the judge of instruction to

check the lawfull arrest and further detention of the two brothers. There

and then the new evidence will be presented to the judge~



The Public Prosecutor’s Office on Aruba sent a request to the National

Prosecutor’s Office In Rotterdam, the Netherlands, to execute the judges

order to arrest V.d. S. and subsequently bring him over to Aruba



V.d. S. was arrested in his house In Amhetn. lie will be led before a judge

in the Netherlands to check his lawful arrest.

V.d.S. will be transfered to Aruba as soon as possible. On Aruba be will

instantly be led before the judge that. ordered his custody. He then will be

heard on that order. His attorney will be able to attend that hearing.

Subsequently the Police will confront V.d. S. with the new evidence,

The duration of the custody is eight days, Within that term the Public

Prosecutor’s Office will decide on a request for prolongation of that

custody.

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3028/8/

[Luke Davis]

Jossy Mansur on FOX news said no one has been arrested, no one is in jail. The Kalpoe brothers are being detained at seperate police stations. Things have been very busy in Aruba the past few months with investigators from Holland questioning families and witnesses. 28 investigators have been on the island.

There is no statute of limitations for murder but the statute for manslaughter expires December 31.


MOO

[fairmaiden]

Originally Posted by Grandad
Since the report is inaccurate in that Joran will not be "extradited" I think it's fair to question the other "facts".

However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder.





LOL I know,
just because someone was involved in voluntary manslaughter causing serious bodily harm that caused the death of a young woman doesn't mean they are guilty of killing anyone. LMAO!
such excuses for the lying sporter.
Have you noticed that the new spin is that joran isn't at fault at all. It's only the Kalpoes??? lol lol Too funny.
The other spin is that joran turned himself in voluntarily, lol lol
Oh why, oh why does anita lie sooooo much.
Wonder if anita has to follow paulus around with an over sized beach towel this time. He must be swearing buckets. lol
IMO

Heyes .... I believe it was just yesterday when you graced us with one of your posts. IIRC, you asked .... "What does Paulus VDS have to do with the kidnap, rape, and murder of Natalee"? ((Perhaps para.)). But I remember both ortiga and I asked you if it indeed HAD been proven there WAS a kidnap, rape and murder.

Well now .... "kidnap, rape and murder" are no longer mentioned. Now we appear to be dealing with a manslaughter, either voluntary or INvoluntary.

I'm always fascinated how you always seem to think "spin" comes from one side of this issue.


JMO

[fairmaiden]

Jossy Mansur on FOX news said no one has been arrested, no one is in jail. The Kalpoe brothers are being detained at seperate police stations. Things have been very busy in Aruba the past few months with investigators from Holland questioning families and witnesses. 28 investigators have been on the island.

There is no statute of limitations for murder but the statute for manslaughter expires December 31.


MOO

WOW Luke .... Talk about "conflicting/misinformation".

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way ....

ETA ... "No one is in jail, but the Kalpoe Bros. are being detained at separate police stations" ??????
JMO

[Luke Davis]

Dave search (http://newsok.com/article/2825245/1195749248)

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) -- The father of disappeared American teenager Natalee Holloway is hiring people to search the waters of Aruba this weekend following the re-arrest of three suspects in the case, an Aruban prosecutor said Thursday.

[Luke Davis]

WOW Luke .... Talk about "conflicting/misinformation".

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way ....

ETA ... "No one is in jail, but the Kalpoe Bros. are being detained at separate police stations" ??????
JMOSeems our different systems can not be understood with simple translations. Even lawyers can't fully understand the difference.


MOO

[Luke Davis]

Greta 11/21/2007 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KzAAC0Mxcro)

[Luke Davis]

FOX announced prosecuter to release new evidence Friday.


heard on tv

[ortiga]

FOX announced prosecuter to release new evidence Friday.


heard on tv

Wow is that bizarre. They are going to release "new" evidence? Did they ever release the "old" evidence supposedly used to keep Joran in jail the first time and re-detainment, before the more recent re-re-detainment of K2?

Have we ever had a statement from the prosecturs office as to what "evidence" they have, have had, wish they had.....?

Do they mean release it to the judge, or release it to the public?

[No Nic]

Jossy Mansur on FOX news said no one has been arrested, no one is in jail. The Kalpoe brothers are being detained at seperate police stations. Things have been very busy in Aruba the past few months with investigators from Holland questioning families and witnesses. 28 investigators have been on the island.

There is no statute of limitations for murder but the statute for manslaughter expires December 31.


MOO

What I heard him say (clarify) was that no one was in the prison (Kia), but K2 were in separate jails. :shrug: I guess I missed the part that no one had been arrested. :confused: Here we go again with conflicting/unclear reports. :mad:

imo

[nately]

Hi. Im living in the Netherlands. I cant give links, as the info will be written in Dutch. I followed the news the last couple of hours. To my understanding:

* Joran van der Sloot will be flown to Aruba tomorrow (fri 23 nov)
* He is being held in custody in the city of Arnhem at the policestation (the Netherlands, and the city where he lives) until he flies to Aruba tomorrow.
* There is no release of ANY new evidence, as the prosecution wants
Joran's unprepared reaction to the new evidence (and it is only logical it will be handled this way)
* Joran has been arrested (I noticed there was some confusion about this earlier on in the thread, not sure if I got that confusion correctly, but the news here says he has been arrested).

If there is any more news, I will post it and try to help with any unclarities/confusion.

nately :)