Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6)

[Chocoholic]

(CNN) -- An Aruban judge Friday ordered the release of Joran van der Sloot, a suspect in the 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Prosecutors said they will not appeal the decision.
Two other suspects, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, were released last week.
A statement from the public prosecutor's office said the judge, in his decision, found that the authorities' "recent investigation has not resulted in more direct evidence than before that Natalee Holloway has died as a result of a violent crime against her or that the suspect has been involved in such a crime."
Authorities arrested all three young men last month, citing new and incriminating evidence but not offering specifics. All three -- who were arrested and released during the investigation in 2005 -- were charged last month with involvement in the "voluntary manslaughter" of Holloway, as well as assault and battery leading to her death.
The three maintain their innocence.
"In the decision the judge took account of all the relevant evidence contained in the whole case file collected during the investigation," covering 2½ years, the statement from the prosecutor's office says.
Noting that the court of appeals, in a decision about the Kalpoe brothers, also questioned the strength of evidence against the suspects, the statement said the public prosecutor's office will not appeal the decision to release van der Sloot.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/07/aruba/?iref=mpstoryview

[Luke Davis]

I don't think attorneys would consider that in settlement negotiations. A jury probably would.From interviews and articles almost everyone is connected to Beth and to each other against the Kalpoes. JQK has said he is confering with Dr. Phil's lawyers. JQK has talked with Hans Mos. Hans Mos has met with Dave and Beth. Beth has met with Skeeters, Dr. Phil and a few governors, Secretary of State, and on and on.

A case could be made that there is/was a conspiracy against the Kalpoe brothers. And further that this conspiracy was to support a boycott against the island of Aruba. I think it could easily be shown that the boycott has brought finantial loss.


MOO

[Luke Davis]

(CNN) -- An Aruban judge Friday ordered the release of Joran van der Sloot, a suspect in the 2005 disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Prosecutors said they will not appeal the decision.
Two other suspects, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, were released last week.
A statement from the public prosecutor's office said the judge, in his decision, found that the authorities' "recent investigation has not resulted in more direct evidence than before that Natalee Holloway has died as a result of a violent crime against her or that the suspect has been involved in such a crime."
Authorities arrested all three young men last month, citing new and incriminating evidence but not offering specifics. All three -- who were arrested and released during the investigation in 2005 -- were charged last month with involvement in the "voluntary manslaughter" of Holloway, as well as assault and battery leading to her death.
The three maintain their innocence.
"In the decision the judge took account of all the relevant evidence contained in the whole case file collected during the investigation," covering 2½ years, the statement from the prosecutor's office says.
Noting that the court of appeals, in a decision about the Kalpoe brothers, also questioned the strength of evidence against the suspects, the statement said the public prosecutor's office will not appeal the decision to release van der Sloot.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/07/aruba/?iref=mpstoryview

the judge took account of all the relevant evidence contained in the whole case file

Very interesting!:read:

[Chocoholic]

the judge took account of all the relevant evidence contained in the whole case file

Very interesting!:read:

Not only that, the prosecution will not appeal the decision. :D

[Luke Davis]

Mercury (http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7663259?nclick_check=1)

LOS ANGELES—A judge refused Friday to dismiss a lawsuit filed against TV's "Dr. Phil" by two brothers arrested in Aruba in connection with the disappearance of teenager Natalee Holloway.
Superior Court Judge Mary Thornton House issued a preliminary ruling allowing Deepak and Satish Kalpoe to proceed with a claim that they were defamed during a 2005 episode of the CBS talk show. However, no final ruling was made because attorneys for the Kalpoes failed to appear in court or explain their absence. Another hearing was set for Jan. 3.

A call to an attorney for the Kalpoes seeking comment was not immediately returned.

Charles L. Babcock, an attorney representing CBS and "Dr. Phil" McGraw, said the tentative decision is "not a ruling at all because the other side didn't show up."

Babcock said he did not have a chance to argue but believes there were several "factual errors" in the tentative ruling. He declined to detail them.

Holloway, an 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Ala., was seen leaving a bar with the Kalpoes and a third man, Joran van der Sloot, before she vanished on May 30, 2005, during a trip to the Caribbean resort island.

All three deny involvement in her disappearance.

[Chocoholic]

Mercury (http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7663259?nclick_check=1)

Hey Luke, do you have a link I can read, this one requires membership. TIA :seeya:

[Luke Davis]

Hey Luke, do you have a link I can read, this one requires membership. TIA :seeya:

San Diego (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20071207-1456-ca-aruba-missingteen-lawsuit.html)

Sorry. This should be the same.

LOS ANGELES – A judge refused Friday to dismiss a lawsuit filed against TV's “Dr. Phil” by two brothers arrested in Aruba in connection with the disappearance of teenager Natalee Holloway.
Superior Court Judge Mary Thornton House issued a preliminary ruling allowing Deepak and Satish Kalpoe to proceed with a claim that they were defamed during a 2005 episode of the CBS talk show. However, no final ruling was made because attorneys for the Kalpoes failed to appear in court or explain their absence. Another hearing was set for Jan. 3.



AdvertisementA call to an attorney for the Kalpoes seeking comment was not immediately returned.
Charles L. Babcock, an attorney representing CBS and “Dr. Phil” McGraw, said the tentative decision is “not a ruling at all because the other side didn't show up.”

Babcock said he did not have a chance to argue but believes there were several “factual errors” in the tentative ruling. He declined to detail them.

Holloway, an 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Ala., was seen leaving a bar with the Kalpoes and a third man, Joran van der Sloot, before she vanished on May 30, 2005, during a trip to the Caribbean resort island.

All three deny involvement in her disappearance.

[fairmaiden]

Not only that, the prosecution will not appeal the decision. :D

I noticed that Choco. I think this whole thing is quite interesting. During the past 2 1/2 years, there just isn't evidence against them to prove they committed a violent crime !! How clear IS that ??

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Mercury (http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7663259?nclick_check=1)

Hi Luke ....

I have this feeling we might be seeing MORE lawsuits. The ruling to release Joran has made it very clear to me, there just isn't evidence to prove a violent crime. I really don't think it can be any clearer. The judge commented on the ENTIRE investigation.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

I noticed that Choco. I think this whole thing is quite interesting. During the past 2 1/2 years, there just isn't evidence against them to prove they committed a violent crime !! How clear IS that ??

JMO

Hi Luke ....

I have this feeling we might be seeing MORE lawsuits. The ruling to release Joran has made it very clear to me, there just isn't evidence to prove a violent crime. I really don't think it can be any clearer. The judge commented on the ENTIRE investigation.

JMO

I wouldn't be surprised about seeing more lawsuits. Ramsey may wish to hold off on marrying beth, it could prove to be expensive.

However, as we've said from the outset, the investigation was based on the suspicion of an alleged crime. Plenty of people only wished to believe the word "crime" and leave out the rest.

No evidence of a violent crime against Natalee Holloway.

So much for beth and her extended family's cries of gangrape, kidnap and murder.

[Luke Davis]

Hi Luke ....

I have this feeling we might be seeing MORE lawsuits. The ruling to release Joran has made it very clear to me, there just isn't evidence to prove a violent crime. I really don't think it can be any clearer. The judge commented on the ENTIRE investigation.

JMOHi fairmaiden. Several ways to look at it. First, there is no evidence. Second, Hans Mos can arrest them again. It sounds like he is going to watch them for the next 15 years.

How can the Kalpoes or others provide discovery in an on going case?

The big losers might be Mr. Skeeter's heirs as his estate is tied up as long as the lawsuit is active.


MOO

[fairmaiden]

I wouldn't be surprised about seeing more lawsuits. Ramsey may wish to hold off on marrying beth, it could prove to be expensive.

However, as we've said from the outset, the investigation was based on the suspicion of an alleged crime. Plenty of people only wished to believe the word "crime" and leave out the rest.

No evidence of a violent crime against Natalee Holloway.

So much for beth and her extended family's cries of gangrape, kidnap and murder.

...... AND, it leads me to wonder how much Beth knew about the "manipulated" Skeeter fiasco. Did she KNOW this was being altered before airing on Dr. Phil ?? I believe it's entirely possible. I'm trying to remember that far back, and I have distinct memories of Beth making MANY appearances at that time, talking about what "they had that was going to blow the case wide open", or words to that effect.

What DID they have ?? Have they ever produced it ?? My feeling is they were talking about Skeeter's "interview" with Deepak.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Hi fairmaiden. Several ways to look at it. First, there is no evidence. Second, Hans Mos can arrest them again. It sounds like he is going to watch them for the next 15 years.

How can the Kalpoes or others provide discovery in an on going case?

The big losers might be Mr. Skeeter's heirs as his estate is tied up as long as the lawsuit is active.


MOO

Luke .... IF they were arrested again, I think it would border on harrassment. You're right .... they DON'T seem to have evidence. I was skeptical of what Hans Mos HAD!! Why didn't he just charge them, if he had this "incriminating evidence" he talked about ??

I'm sure the LEAST of Dr. Phil's worries, is Skeeter's heirs !! I wonder if the Judge's ruling when releasing Joran .... his pronouncement that he based his decision by taking into consideration the ENTIRE case file .... COULD hasten a settlement ??

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Hi fairmaiden. Several ways to look at it. First, there is no evidence. Second, Hans Mos can arrest them again. It sounds like he is going to watch them for the next 15 years.

How can the Kalpoes or others provide discovery in an on going case?

The big losers might be Mr. Skeeter's heirs as his estate is tied up as long as the lawsuit is active.


MOO

The Aruban investigators would have to have Natalee's remains (won't happen) and evidence that links these guys to a supposed crime. Just because remains are found doesn't mean a crime was involved. THEN they would still have to find a motive.

Good luck, ain't gonna happen.

[Chocoholic]

...... AND, it leads me to wonder how much Beth knew about the "manipulated" Skeeter fiasco. Did she KNOW this was being altered before airing on Dr. Phil ?? I believe it's entirely possible. I'm trying to remember that far back, and I have distinct memories of Beth making MANY appearances at that time, talking about what "they had that was going to blow the case wide open", or words to that effect.

What DID they have ?? Have they ever produced it ?? My feeling is they were talking about Skeeter's "interview" with Deepak.

JMO

I told you, dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". Everything possible has been done to investigate this case, including the FBI involvement, the KLPD, the NFI and Interpol. To believe that all these agencies are interested in the coverup of a little-important woman is ludicrous. It's not as though she is an important political figure who might have put countries or political parties at risk - unless there is more to the family ties to the White House than is evident.

[Chocoholic]

Transcript from Heli on RU:

Greta December 7, 2007 Jeff Fieger
I'm transcribing Jeff Fieger's last commentary in the panel discussion; because it's insightful and I just like Fieger Wink

Fieger:

You guys are completely wrong about the judges in Aruba, they don't respond like american judges. Anybody who says if you bring charges a Judge will convict in Aruba, you're wrong.

There's complete independence of the judiciary there and they jealously guard the judiciary and they don't respond to the fear in america of judges that the public will think they're soft on crime and as you've seen now, they've let these guys go twice and they would never convict without evidence, EVER, EVER, they're far different than american judges


** Fieger lives in the caribbean as reported by him as a preface to his comments.

Again, it is explained that the difference in legal systems brings forth waves of misunderstanding.

I still read posts on boards that say "the jury would find these guys guilty". Jury? What jury? There is no jury. These jurists are trained for 6 years on top of the time they have spent on becoming a lawyer. No laymen in the system to decide over a person's future.

[Luke Davis]

Transcript from Heli on RU:



Again, it is explained that the difference in legal systems brings forth waves of misunderstanding.

I still read posts on boards that say "the jury would find these guys guilty". Jury? What jury? There is no jury. These jurists are trained for 6 years on top of the time they have spent on becoming a lawyer. No laymen in the system to decide over a person's future.

Thanks for the preview, I'll watch Greta an hour from now.

[fairmaiden]

I told you, dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". Everything possible has been done to investigate this case, including the FBI involvement, the KLPD, the NFI and Interpol. To believe that all these agencies are interested in the coverup of a little-important woman is ludicrous. It's not as though she is an important political figure who might have put countries or political parties at risk - unless there is more to the family ties to the White House than is evident.

Choco .... I've agreed with this from the beginning. I believe it IS ridiculous to believe all of these agencies, including the involvement of the FBI, are even REMOTELY connected with some kind of coverup/corruption. It just doesn't make sense. It never has.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I told you, dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's". Everything possible has been done to investigate this case, including the FBI involvement, the KLPD, the NFI and Interpol. .

I haven't read a statement from Interpol stating their involvement. Do you have a published source confirming how they contributed to this investigation?
I don't agree everything possible was done by Aruban/Dutch authorities, which is why donors and volunteers are involved in a search mission of the deep waters. I hope their mission is successful,and the family can bring remains home for a proper, respectful burial. JMO.

[Chocoholic]

I haven't read a statement from Interpol stating their involvement. Do you have a published source confirming how they contributed to this investigation?
I don't agree everything possible was done by Aruban/Dutch authorities, which is why donors and volunteers are involved in a search mission of the deep waters. I hope their mission is successful,and the family can bring remains home for a proper, respectful burial. JMO.

Nope, but feel free to google, it's $17 for the article.

If not everything possible was done, in comparison the US does nothing for it's missing persons.

imo

[Luke Davis]

Hans Mos to busy for hearing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG8jRUQaiiY)

[Chocoholic]

Hans Mos to busy for hearing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YG8jRUQaiiY)

Good ol' Greta.

Hans Mos isn't in charge of prosecuting this case. Technically nobody is anymore. Hans Mos had a week off. I've read links, I admit I'm too lazy to look them up right now so I'll make this a great big IMO.

[HiLife]

<snipped>

Cannot prove a negative? That's incredible. What a priceless piece of wisdom. So how would you like J2K to prove their innocence?

Easy. J2K can start by finally telling the truth.

[JustMyOpinion]

Good ol' Greta.

Hans Mos isn't in charge of prosecuting this case. Technically nobody is anymore. .


I disagree with your statement of opinion that you post as fact.
Hans Mos is still in charge, IMO, and the case has not yet been officially closed..IMO. It is reported by Diario today that Mos said he is evaluating if there are other accusations for which the suspects can be brought forth in the case, IMO.
Article can be found here.
http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/12/8/

[Luke Davis]

The Aruban prosecution is going around in circles," said Joseph Tacopina, one of van der Sloot's attorneys. "They've bumbled this case from the beginning."

Government officials have agreed.



Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/08/news/CB-GEN-Aruba-Missing-Teen.php)

Prosecutor Hans Mos said he does not anticipate ever finding Holloway's remains.

"It's very hard to try a case without a body," he said. "It's not impossible, but you need substantial evidence that somebody was killed."

[fairmaiden]

The Aruban prosecution is going around in circles," said Joseph Tacopina, one of van der Sloot's attorneys. "They've bumbled this case from the beginning."

Government officials have agreed.



Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/08/news/CB-GEN-Aruba-Missing-Teen.php)

Prosecutor Hans Mos said he does not anticipate ever finding Holloway's remains.

"It's very hard to try a case without a body," he said. "It's not impossible, but you need substantial evidence that somebody was killed."



I must admit, Luke .... I'm a little bit lost. Didn't Hans Mos say he HAD incriminating evidence that Joran et al were guilty of voluntary manslaughter ??

Of COURSE one needs "substantial evidence" that somebody was killed !! He said he HAD it !!

ETA .... The more I read that statement of his .... isn't he admitting he DIDN'T have the evidence somebody was killed ??

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I must admit, Luke .... I'm a little bit lost. Didn't Hans Mos say he HAD incriminating evidence that Joran et al were guilty of voluntary manslaughter ??

Of COURSE one needs "substantial evidence" that somebody was killed !! He said he HAD it !!

ETA .... The more I read that statement of his .... isn't he admitting he DIDN'T have the evidence somebody was killed ??

JMO

He said he thought he had evidence proving she was not alive anymore.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

I don't recall him stating he had evidence proving she was "killed".Could you link to a statement from him where he said "I have incriminating evidence that Joran et al are guilty of voluntary manslaughter"? TIA.

[No Nic]

The Aruban prosecution is going around in circles," said Joseph Tacopina, one of van der Sloot's attorneys. "They've bumbled this case from the beginning."

Government officials have agreed.



Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/08/news/CB-GEN-Aruba-Missing-Teen.php)

Prosecutor Hans Mos said he does not anticipate ever finding Holloway's remains.

"It's very hard to try a case without a body," he said. "It's not impossible, but you need substantial evidence that somebody was killed."



FINALLY, I can agree with something JoeT said. ""They've bumbled this case from the beginning." The only question is.......was it "bumbled" on purpose or are the Arubans simply a bunch of idiot bumblers?

Travelers should think long and hard whether they want to vacation on an island that has proven those in charge are a bunch of bumblers, imo, and I think many, many vacationers will do just that.

imo

[fairmaiden]

He said he thought he had evidence proving she was not alive anymore.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

I don't recall him stating he had evidence proving she was "killed".Could you link to a statement from him where he said "I have incriminating evidence that Joran et al are guilty of voluntary manslaughter"? TIA.

Did he use those exact words ?? He might NOT have, but wasn't that the reason he put forth for arresting them yet again ?? That he had "incriminating evidence" of voluntary manslaughter ?? Didn't he expand on that by saying he had NEW evidence against Joran et al ?? Otherwise, what was this fiasco for the past week ??

I really don't understand .... are you saying Hans Mos DIDN'T say he had "new evidence" against Joran et al ??

JMO

[HiLife]

FINALLY, I can agree with something JoeT said. ""They've bumbled this case from the beginning." The only question is.......was it "bumbled" on purpose or are the Arubans simply a bunch of idiot bumblers?

Travelers should think long and hard whether they want to vacation on an island that has proven those in charge are a bunch of bumblers, imo, and I think many, many vacationers will do just that.

imo

You took the words right off of my keyboard, NN! I can finally agree with Joe T. Aruba has done nothing but bumble this case. It is hard to believe so much bumbling is accidental.

I can't get over Mr. Mos saying (paraphrased) how they weighed heavily the consequences to Aruba of going forward, but that he had confidence in the "new evidence......" when there WASN'T any new evidence! I'm really not getting this!

He has done nothing but make Aruba look even worse than before. I think there will only be sand fleas and coconut palm fronds waving at the Beach Cams from now on.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Did he use those exact words ??
JMO


If you read the article in the link I provided, his exact words are there.

[Chocoholic]

Easy. J2K can start by finally telling the truth.

Prove that they haven't.

[fairmaiden]

He said he thought he had evidence proving she was not alive anymore.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

I don't recall him stating he had evidence proving she was "killed".Could you link to a statement from him where he said "I have incriminating evidence that Joran et al are guilty of voluntary manslaughter"? TIA.

From your link .... two snippets ....

~~~"You don't need a body under our law to prove someone is dead. And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."

They are charged with "involvement in the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death." ~~~

First of all .... the first snippet .... is he actually using the fact ((presumably)) that "every day that passes now is just more EVIDENCE that she is not alive anymore"?? Isn't that pretty weak evidence of someone's death ??

Secondly .... although the statement in ITSELF is wrong, since no one was charged .... but the crime Hans Mos talked about was "involvement in the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Holloway, or causing bodily harm to Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death".

Since all of them were again arrested, one has to assume Hans Mos had PROOF of this voluntary manslaughter, or the causing bodily harm to Natalee.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

If you read the article in the link I provided, his exact words are there.

I read it .... and commented on it.

[Chocoholic]

I must admit, Luke .... I'm a little bit lost. Didn't Hans Mos say he HAD incriminating evidence that Joran et al were guilty of voluntary manslaughter ??

Of COURSE one needs "substantial evidence" that somebody was killed !! He said he HAD it !!

ETA .... The more I read that statement of his .... isn't he admitting he DIDN'T have the evidence somebody was killed ??

JMO

Lemme try this one more time.

Mos couldn't possibly drag the three back in front of a judge on the suspicions that were there previously - the gangrape, kidnap and murder thing, there wasn't enough evidence and the judge tossed it out pretty much stating that when you've got NEW evidence come back and see me.

So Mos came back with "NEW" evidence on the suspicion of voluntary manslaughter. Judge threw that out too.

It's the prosecution's job to prove that a crime was committed and to prove that individuals were connected to that crime.

The judge pretty much said that there is no evidence of a crime, go blow it out your ear.

IMO and in laymen's terms.

[HiLife]

Prove that they haven't.

How did Joran arrive home that night? 4 different versions.

Who picked up Joran that night? 3 different versions.

Where were Joran and Natalee dropped off that night? 2 different versions (after the initial 4 versions it is now whittled down to 2 different versions)

What is the truth? Where is the truth?

jmo

[Chocoholic]

How did Joran arrive home that night? 4 different versions.

Who picked up Joran that night? 3 different versions.

Where were Joran and Natalee dropped off that night? 2 different versions (after the initial 4 versions it is now whittled down to 2 different versions)

What is the truth? Where is the truth?

jmo

Ask the judge, he has reviewed the entire case. Front to back, back to front.

No the judge isn't a friend of the v.d. Sloots and he is not from Aruba.

[JustMyOpinion]

From your link .... two snippets ....

~~~"You don't need a body under our law to prove someone is dead. And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."

They are charged with "involvement in the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death." ~~~

First of all .... the first snippet .... is he actually using the fact ((presumably)) that "every day that passes now is just more EVIDENCE that she is not alive anymore"?? Isn't that pretty weak evidence of someone's death ??

Secondly .... although the statement in ITSELF is wrong, since no one was charged .... but the crime Hans Mos talked about was "involvement in the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Holloway, or causing bodily harm to Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death".

Since all of them were again arrested, one has to assume Hans Mos had PROOF of this voluntary manslaughter, or the causing bodily harm to Natalee.

JMO

You are free to assume whatever you like.
It's my understanding that in the modified inquisitorial system in Aruba, persons can be detained and interrogated on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes. IMO
It's my understanding a Judge reviews evidence at specified intervals and must rule it is sufficient to support prolonging a detention on reasonable suspicion, IMO.
It appears to me that Mos brought sufficient evidence supporting detentions of individuals on reasonable suspicion of involvement in the alleged crime of voluntary manslaughter, but a judge ruled the suspect's detentions could not be further prolonged. JMO
If the prosecutor stated he was bringing a summation to court, I would then assume he believes he has sufficient evidence to PROVE a criminal case, JMO.

[HiLife]

Ask the judge, he has reviewed the entire case. Front to back, back to front.

No the judge isn't a friend of the v.d. Sloots and he is not from Aruba.

Like Joe T. said, they are a bunch of bumblers. You said for me to prove J2K haven't told the truth and I did. A big list of no truthful answers from them.

This is the same judge who released the suspects in the beginning. Nothing about the Aruban judiciary can be trusted at this point, IMO.
You have no way of knowing whether he is a friend of the VDS' of not.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

You are free to assume whatever you like.
It's my understanding that in the modified inquisitorial system in Aruba, persons can be detained and interrogated on reasonable suspicion of involvement in alleged crimes. IMO
It's my understanding a Judge reviews evidence at specified intervals and must rule it is sufficient to support prolonging a detention on reasonable suspicion, IMO.
It appears to me that Mos brought sufficient evidence supporting detentions of individuals on reasonable suspicion of involvement in the alleged crime of voluntary manslaughter, but a judge ruled the suspect's detentions could not be further prolonged. JMO
If the prosecutor stated he was bringing a summation to court, I would then assume he believes he has sufficient evidence to PROVE a criminal case, JMO.

JMO .... Yes, I understand I am free to assume whatever I like.

In the ruling releasing Joran, the Judge reviewed the ENTIRE case file. It was clearly stated that AFTER reviewing the entire case file, there is no indication of any violent crime. How much clearer can that statement be ?? There's no indication of any violent crime against Natalee Holloway.

JMO

[HiLife]

JMO .... Yes, I understand I am free to assume whatever I like.

In the ruling releasing Joran, the Judge reviewed the ENTIRE case file. It was clearly stated that AFTER reviewing the entire case file, there is no indication of any violent crime. How much clearer can that statement be ?? There's no indication of any violent crime against Natalee Holloway.

JMO

The judge canNOT possibly know this. No one knows what happened, much less the judge. Only that J2K have lied and there has yet to be any truthful resolution. ALE have FAILED to arrive at any determination. JUst because ALE have bungled this case, does NOT make the lying MEN innocent.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

Like Joe T. said, they are a bunch of bumblers. You said for me to prove J2K haven't told the truth and I did. A big list of no truthful answers from them.

This is the same judge who released the suspects in the beginning. Nothing about the Aruban judiciary can be trusted at this point, IMO.
You have no way of knowing whether he is a friend of the VDS' of not.

jmo

HiLife .... I really don't understand this post. Are you saying that this particular Judge cannot be trusted ??

What I seem to be seeing are people who are disappointed that this case doesn't seem to be working out the way they THINK it should. You think Joran et al are involved in Natalee's disappearance, and nothing else BUT their incarceration will satisfy you. I'm not sure if you think they all kidnapped her, raped her, then murdered her .... but clearly, you think they are involved somehow.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Like Joe T. said, they are a bunch of bumblers. You said for me to prove J2K haven't told the truth and I did. A big list of no truthful answers from them.

This is the same judge who released the suspects in the beginning. Nothing about the Aruban judiciary can be trusted at this point, IMO.
You have no way of knowing whether he is a friend of the VDS' of not.

jmo

We know that they lied but we have no way of telling that they eventually told the truth.

Can you prove that Meester Smit is a friend of the v.d. Sloots? Nah, you can't. That is the reason that he was brought from Curacao.

[JustMyOpinion]

JMO .... Yes, I understand I am free to assume whatever I like.

In the ruling releasing Joran, the Judge reviewed the ENTIRE case file. It was clearly stated that AFTER reviewing the entire case file, there is no indication of any violent crime. How much clearer can that statement be ?? There's no indication of any violent crime against Natalee Holloway.

JMO


You appear to keep changing the subject, IMO
What are you asking?
( I think the statement from the Court about contents of the case file was clear) JMO

[fairmaiden]

The judge canNOT possibly know this. No one knows what happened, much less the judge. Only that J2K have lied and there has yet to be any truthful resolution. ALE have FAILED to arrive at any determination. JUst because ALE have bungled this case, does NOT make the lying MEN innocent.

jmo

Now, I'm REALLY confused, HiLife. Certainly not to compare judicial systems, but every day of the week, we have major trials in this country, where the lives of people are put in the hands of a jury. A panel of ordinary people .... with no legal training whatsoever .... and arguably, it's the best system in the world. You are saying that a Judge, who has been familiar with this case for a long time .... who has studied the case file , is NOT equipped to make a decision like he did ???

JMO

[Chocoholic]

The judge canNOT possibly know this. No one knows what happened, much less the judge. Only that J2K have lied and there has yet to be any truthful resolution. ALE have FAILED to arrive at any determination. JUst because ALE have bungled this case, does NOT make the lying MEN innocent.

jmo


It would seem to me that the judge has far more access to ALL documents than you will ever have.

Since the FBI, KLPD and Interpol also assisted in the investigation are you stating for a fact that they too bungled the case?

Are they all incompetent? Are they all covering up for an unimportant tourist on Aruba?

[HiLife]

Now, I'm REALLY confused, HiLife. Certainly not to compare judicial systems, but every day of the week, we have major trials in this country, where the lives of people are put in the hands of a jury. A panel of ordinary people .... with no legal training whatsoever .... and arguably, it's the best system in the world. You are saying that a Judge, who has been familiar with this case for a long time .... who has studied the case file , is NOT equipped to make a decision like he did ???

JMO

What I am trying to say (and this is the answer to your other post to me...I've gotta run, so I have to answer quickly).....is that this is the same judge who released J2K last time.

Logic dictates, that if this is the same judge who threw out the evidence in the first place.....and now this same judge is now looking at the same evidence, because we nowknow there was NO "new evidence".....that he would throw it out once again.

Why is the same judge looking at this?? There is something wrong here.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

You keep making statements and then when proven wrong, you turn it around.

You said the judge was not a VDS friend - I said you had no way of knowing this.

I said that J2K could tell the truth, you said how do I know they haven't and then I made the list.

jmo

Time and again it's been stated as a fact that the reason Joran was never charged is because his father has connections to judges. So prove it to me. You have no way of knowing that the Curacao judge has any relationship to the v.d. Sloots whatsoever and this is one of the reasons that this judge was brought in, to ensure impartiality.

What you fail to understand, apparently is that the suspects may well have told the truth, they just haven't shared it with you personally or beth. We know that beth has signed confessions but apparently they're not worth anything to the judge, who is the one that counts.

So you can't as a fact state that there is a friendship between the Curacaoan judge and Paul v.d. Sloot and you can't state that none of the suspects have spoken the truth.

It's impossible to prove a negative, just like it's impossible at this stage to prove whether or not Natalee is or isn't alive.

[fairmaiden]

It appears to be a fairly chronic state for you, IMO.

TOTALLY uncalled for ....and reported.

[JustMyOpinion]

It's impossible to prove a negative, just like it's impossible at this stage to prove whether or not Natalee is or isn't alive.

Based on all that Mos has said,I think it can be proven she isn't alive, JMO.
I don't think it can be proven that someone killed her, JMO.
Statements from suspects or witnesses without corroborative evidence are not enough, IMO.

[HiLife]

It would seem to me that the judge has far more access to ALL documents than you will ever have.

Since the FBI, KLPD and Interpol also assisted in the investigation are you stating for a fact that they too bungled the case?

Are they all incompetent? Are they all covering up for an unimportant tourist on Aruba?

Still no proof about "Interpol assisting" and IIRC, the FBI assistance was limited by ALE.

ALE bungled this case and Mr. Mos went on TV night after night lying about having "new evidence." Yes, they are incompetent, IMO. And in the opinion of many, including Joe T., Joran's lawyer.

If you find Natalee "unimportant," that is on you. It is yet another post demeaning Natalee by you. (hope you didn't miss this, FM)

jmo

[HiLife]

Why is there something wrong with that? If the OM has any indication that this judge should not be hearing this case they can appeal and ask for a different judge. Have you personally heard from the OM asking for a different judge? If not why not? Are you not in the loop or did the OM not ask for a different judge because the one presiding was satisfactory?
Stop making this about me. I think the conversation has run its course.

[Chocoholic]

Based on all that Mos has said,I think it can be proven she isn't alive, JMO.
I don't think it can be proven that someone killed her, JMO.
Statements from suspects or witnesses without corroborative evidence are not enough, IMO.

Based on what Mos said - which is pretty much that because she hasn't surfaced in the last 2.5 yrs we presume she's dead - is one hell of a leap to being able to prove that a person isn't alive.

You owe Fairmaiden an apology. Your comment was completely uncalled for.

[HiLife]

<snipped>

I know you don't, so stop with the "incompetent/corruption" crap.

Sorry, but I won't stop. It is my opinion (and the opinion of many others, including Joe T., Joran's lawyer) that "ALE are Keystone Kops and have bungled this case."

We have been following this case for 2.5 years - enough to come to a logical opinion - and mine is that ALE and Aruban officials have been incompetent and have bungled this case.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Sorry, but I won't stop. It is my opinion (and the opinion of many others, including Joe T., Joran's lawyer) that "ALE are Keystone Kops and have bungled this case."

We have been following this case for 2.5 years - enough to come to a logical opinion - and mine is that ALE and Aruban officials have been incompetent and have bungled this case.

jmo

This investigation hasn't been handled by just ALE and Aruban officials.

It's been handled by the FBI, the KLPD and Interpol AND judges from Curacao. Are you trying to tell us that they're all "keystone kops and they have bungled the case"?

That would be a pretty low opinion to have of even your own highly esteemed FBI.

[HiLife]

This investigation hasn't been handled by just ALE and Aruban officials.

It's been handled by the FBI, the KLPD and Interpol AND judges from Curacao. Are you trying to tell us that they're all "keystone kops and they have bungled the case"?

That would be a pretty low opinion to have of even your own highly esteemed FBI.

Stop twisting and putting words in my post.

The FBI was kept at arms length. They had a very limited role in this bungled investigation by ALE and Aruban Officials.

If the FBI had been allowed to do their highly trained work in this case, it would have been solved and the perpetrators behind bars by now.

jmo

ETA - IIRC, Paulus VDS went to court to try and stop the FBI involvement - wonder what Paulus was so afraid of?

[ArubaSteve]

Merry Christmas Joran, Satish, Depak and your families. May the New Year bring you peace.

[HiLife]

Merry Christmas Joran, Satish, Depak and your families. May the New Year bring you peace.

They deserve as much "peace" as Natalee has or her family. jmo

[No Nic]

Like Joe T. said, they are a bunch of bumblers. You said for me to prove J2K haven't told the truth and I did. A big list of no truthful answers from them.

This is the same judge who released the suspects in the beginning. Nothing about the Aruban judiciary can be trusted at this point, IMO.
You have no way of knowing whether he is a friend of the VDS' of not.

jmo

Isn't this the same judge that first ruled that Joran would be kept in custody, went home and faxed back a reversal of that decision so Joran could *carry on*? I believe it is.........friends of the VDSs, biased.......I would bet on it.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Stop twisting and putting words in my post.

The FBI was kept at arms length. They had a very limited role in this bungled investigation by ALE and Aruban Officials.

If the FBI had been allowed to do their highly trained work in this case, it would have been solved and the perpetrators behind bars by now.

jmo

ETA - IIRC, Paulus VDS went to court to try and stop the FBI involvement - wonder what Paulus was so afraid of?

The FBI has no jurisdiction on Aruba, I would think that you would understand that. But from beth's own words the FBI was very involved right from the beginning, links available all over the net.

If anybody has jurisdiction it would be KLPD and it's independent forensic crime lab, but only by invitation/request of ALE, which is what was done.

BTW ALE was trained by the "highly trained" FBI as well as other US LE agencies. Was their training short of the mark? Are they incompetent to train?

[HiLife]

Isn't this the same judge that first ruled that Joran would be kept in custody, went home and faxed back a reversal of that decision so Joran could *carry on*? I believe it is.........friends of the VDSs, biased.......I would bet on it.

imo

Verrrry FISHY, IMO.

[Chocoholic]

Merry Christmas Joran, Satish, Depak and your families. May the New Year bring you peace.

http://bestsmileys.com/christmas1/2.gif

[HiLife]

<snipped>

BTW ALE was trained by the "highly trained" FBI as well as other US LE agencies. Was their training short of the mark? Are they incompetent to train?

About ALE training with the FBI - "You can lead a horse to the water......"

The FBI was involved in a small way. ALE and Aruban officials have been incompetent. This is constantly stated on the nightly programs by professionals, including Joran's own attorney, Joe T.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Verrrry FISHY, IMO.


http://bestsmileys.com/fishing/4.gif

[HiLife]

http://bestsmileys.com/fishing/4.gif

cute.

[Chocoholic]

About ALE training with the FBI - "You can lead a horse to the water......"

The FBI was involved in a small way. ALE and Aruban officials have been incompetent. This is constantly stated on the nightly programs by professionals, including Joran's own attorney, Joe T.

jmo

They've had assistance from KLPD, FBI, Interpol and had an independent judge flown Curacao to reside over the case. Heck KLPD even took charge of the case and I don't care what you believe, KLPD is as competent as the FBI is any day though perhaps not as corrupt.

imo

[No Nic]

They deserve as much "peace" as Natalee has or her family. jmo


May their every waking moment and their nightmares be filled with the sounds of Natalee's screams and the visuals of Natalee's last moments on this earth. Wonder if Satish still sees her ghost? I certainly hope all 3 of them see her rising out of the water everytime they are on the beach.

That is what JK2 deserve, that is what I wish for them for Chistmas, New Year and the rest of their lives.

[HiLife]

They've had assistance from KLPD, FBI, Interpol and had an independent judge flown Curacao to reside over the case. Heck KLPD even took charge of the case and I don't care what you believe, KLPD is as competent as the FBI is any day though perhaps not as corrupt.

imo

Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how "competent" have they been? Call the FBI corrupt if that makes you feel better. The whole world has watched and seen that Aruba is corrupt and the ALE incompetent. They stopped anyone who could help, from helping them.

If the FBI had been able to work properly on the case, it would have been solved and the murderers behind bars already.

jmo

[HiLife]

May their every waking moment and their nightmares be filled with the sounds of Natalee's screams and the visuals of Natalee's last moments on this earth. Wonder if Satish still sees her ghost? I certainly hope all 3 of them see her rising out of the water everytime they are on the beach.

That is what JK2 deserve, that is what I wish for them for Chistmas, New Year and the rest of their lives.

DITTO!

They deserve nothing but the same pain they have caused Natalee and her family for the rest of their lives!
jmo

BBL, NN, gotta run!

[fairmaiden]

Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how "competent" have they been? Call the FBI corrupt if that makes you feel better. The whole world has watched and seen that Aruba is corrupt and the ALE incompetent. They stopped anyone who could help, from helping them.

If the FBI had been able to work properly on the case, it would have been solved and the murderers behind bars already.

jmo

I don't believe that's quite true, HiLife. I don't believe the "whole world" has been watching this case .... and I believe Aruba still has tourists. It's interesting, but in reading some other messageboards, it's quite evident that SOME in the whole world agree with the release of Joran et al.

You talk about her "murderers being behind bars already". You are positive Joran et al murdered Natalee ??

JMO

[Chocoholic]

DITTO!

They deserve nothing but the same pain they have caused Natalee and her family for the rest of their lives!
jmo

BBL, NN, gotta run!

I could turn that around. They deserve the same pain they have caused J2K and their families for the rest of their lives, regardless of whether or not Natalee ran away. Either way, wishing to inflict pain on somebody else is morally and ethically unacceptable in most societies. I believe that that is often a reason for motive in a crime.....

[fairmaiden]

Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how "competent" have they been? Call the FBI corrupt if that makes you feel better. The whole world has watched and seen that Aruba is corrupt and the ALE incompetent. They stopped anyone who could help, from helping them.

If the FBI had been able to work properly on the case, it would have been solved and the murderers behind bars already.

jmo

You say "Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how competent have they been?". What if there was nowhere to go ?? What if there wasn't any evidence when they dug up the VDS property ?? What if there just isn't any evidence of any violent crime ?? What would you expect them to do .... manufacture evidence ?? I think it's a little unfair to call KLPD "incompetent" because this hasn't been solved to your liking.

JMO

[Grandad]

Stop harassing me.


I'm sorry, but some of your posts really make one wonder if you're really aware of what you're saying.

[No Nic]

RUmor has it that Joran is on his way to the US.

Wonder if the LE wherever he is headed will return the favor and "look the other way".

[Chocoholic]

This post says a lot more about you than it says about J2K.

Reminds me of Joe Mammana, persona non grata on Aruba, who threatened to inflict the same crimes on J2K as they had performed on Natalee, based on the belief that she had been gangraped, kidnapped and murdered.

Advanced societies don't participate in or condone vigilante justice, AND they stand for IUPG AND due process.

Sadly lacking when you read some of these posts.

[HiLife]

You say "Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how competent have they been?". What if there was nowhere to go ?? What if there wasn't any evidence when they dug up the VDS property ?? What if there just isn't any evidence of any violent crime ?? What would you expect them to do .... manufacture evidence ?? I think it's a little unfair to call KLPD "incompetent" because this hasn't been solved to your liking.

JMO

There were plenty of places "to go." KLPD had TONS of info and suspects to work with. They did not re-interview. They searched the VDS grounds and read Joran's book and laughed (according to Paulus). I believe KLPD went there in March for a nice, Spring vacation on Aruba.

They accomplished nothing. If you are so adamantly defending them, then please tell me what they did. TIA.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

There were plenty of places "to go." KLPD had TONS of info and suspects to work with. They did not re-interview. They searched the VDS grounds and read Joran's book and laughed (according to Paulus). I believe KLPD went there in March for a nice, Spring vacation on Aruba.

They accomplished nothing. If you are so adamantly defending them, then please tell me what they did. TIA.

jmo

Since you appear to be a legal expert, please tell us what within legal limits, more could have been done?

[HiLife]

RUmor has it that Joran is on his way to the US.

Wonder if the LE wherever he is headed will return the favor and "look the other way".

This should be interesting, to say the least. jmo

[Chocoholic]

This should be interesting, to say the least. jmo

Don't worry it's a rumor. He's happily in comfy warm Aruba with his loving family, people who stand by him and who's parents haven't divorced multiple times. No Christmas at the stepfamily, just Christmas at home. Sounds like bliss to me and it's about time.

[Chocoholic]

Still insulting? Sorry, but the post wasn't addressed to you. FM is the one valiantly defending KLPD. I'd like to hear from her, since she is so adamant - just exactly what did KLPD do?

jmo

It really doesn't matter WHO you're posting to, it's a public board and if you don't want your messages answered you may wish to take your posts to a PM.

KLPD reviewed all the information, re-interviewed people that had been interviewed and apparently did more searches on Aruba. That's just based on the information that was made public, we don't know what information the judge may still have that wasn't made public.

If and when you wish to shut me up, take it up with Freshwater please, until then I have as much of a right to post here as you.

You didn't answer my question though. What more, within the legal limitations could have been done, in your expert opinion? I only ask because I hear time and again that not enough was done and the investigation has been bungled and that Tacopina called ALE keystone cops of which I have seen no credible link.

[HiLife]

Don't worry it's a rumor. He's happily in comfy warm Aruba with his loving family, people who stand by him and who's parents haven't divorced multiple times. No Christmas at the stepfamily, just Christmas at home. Sounds like bliss to me and it's about time.

Joran is the apple that did not fall far from the tree. His parents (who married for convenience of visa, according to Joran's book) have lied and covered up his involvement in this case.

Joran made sure Natalee would not live to see another Christmas. He will never be free of his cruel, callous involvement in this case. His family has been shamed. I guess he'll have to find whatever little enjoyment he can - his life will not be easy, as it shouldn't be.

Everyone I speak to knows of this case. Joran will never be "free."

jmo

[HiLife]

You say "Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how competent have they been?". What if there was nowhere to go ?? What if there wasn't any evidence when they dug up the VDS property ?? What if there just isn't any evidence of any violent crime ?? What would you expect them to do .... manufacture evidence ?? I think it's a little unfair to call KLPD "incompetent" because this hasn't been solved to your liking.

JMO

There were plenty of places "to go." KLPD had TONS of info and suspects to work with. They did not re-interview. They searched the VDS grounds and read Joran's book and laughed (according to Paulus). I believe KLPD went there in March for a nice, Spring vacation on Aruba.

They accomplished nothing. If you are so adamantly defending them, then please tell me what they did. TIA.

jmo

Bumping for Fairmaiden.

What exactly is it that KLPD did? TIA.

(going out to dinner, I'll be back!)

jmo

[ortiga]

The Aruban prosecution is going around in circles," said Joseph Tacopina, one of van der Sloot's attorneys. "They've bumbled this case from the beginning."

Government officials have agreed.



Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/12/08/news/CB-GEN-Aruba-Missing-Teen.php)

Prosecutor Hans Mos said he does not anticipate ever finding Holloway's remains.

"It's very hard to try a case without a body," he said. "It's not impossible, but you need substantial evidence that somebody was killed."



"Mos said he and the Holloway family feel pursuing a minor charge "doesn't serve a purpose." "

OOOOHHHHHH so Twitty et al want to leave a manslaughter suspicion hanging in the air.....now that the rape, kidnapping and murder has been dropped.....instead of "pursuing a minor charge". The Holloway family are determining which charges, if any, to lodge against the boys?

So if Natalee was not gang raped, kidnapped, murdered, manslaughtered, or battered then lets just not mention that she probably died of drinking.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

Joran is the apple that did not fall far from the tree. His parents (who married for convenience of visa, according to Joran's book) have lied and covered up his involvement in this case.

Joran made sure Natalee would not live to see another Christmas. He will never be free of his cruel, callous involvement in this case. His family has been shamed. I guess he'll have to find whatever little enjoyment he can - his life will not be easy, as it shouldn't be.

Everyone I speak to knows of this case. Joran will never be "free."

jmo

I have asked time and again for a list of lies from Paul and Anita v.d. Sloot and have yet to be supplied with one, I can only conclude that none exists.

Only in your opinion is Joran guilty of ensuring that Natalee would not see another Christmas, but since there is no evidence of a crime and you're not the judge on this case I would have to come to the conclusion you're less informed than he is. Since the judge's opinion DOES matter in this case and yours doesn't (legally speaking) and he concluded that there was no reason to believe that Natalee was harmed in any way, the family and you may be grieving for the wrong reasons. Indeed she is not in touch with "the family" but it may be because she wishes it to be so.

WOW everybody you speak to knows of this case? I rarely mention this case. Last time I did was oh about a year ago and the person I was talking to said "who? oh her ... I thought she was found".

You're right, Joran will never be free. He will always be burdened by the catch 22, should he have assaulted Natalee by picking her up and taking her to her hotel, which she didn't want, or just left her where she was as he did.

Natalee's parents may or may not know where Natalee is. Natalee did however explain to several people on the island (links already provided) that she didn't wish to return home and that she believed her mother was hitler's sister's daughter or something like that.

[ortiga]

Now, I'm REALLY confused, HiLife. Certainly not to compare judicial systems, but every day of the week, we have major trials in this country, where the lives of people are put in the hands of a jury. A panel of ordinary people .... with no legal training whatsoever .... and arguably, it's the best system in the world. You are saying that a Judge, who has been familiar with this case for a long time .... who has studied the case file , is NOT equipped to make a decision like he did ???

JMO

It appears to be a fairly chronic state for you, IMO.

You are out of line again.

Leave FM alone, you have no right on this board to tell any poster what may or may not be a chronic state in their life.

That's a personal attack, I refer you to the TOS.

[Chocoholic]

"Mos said he and the Holloway family feel pursuing a minor charge "doesn't serve a purpose." "

OOOOHHHHHH so Twitty et al want to leave a manslaughter suspicion hanging in the air.....now that the rape, kidnapping and murder has been dropped.....instead of "pursuing a minor charge". The Holloway family are determining which charges, if any, to lodge against the boys?

So if Natalee was not gang raped, kidnapped, murdered, manslaughtered, or battered then lets just not mention that she probably died of drinking.

IMO

Stop being impertinent, I will have to start coaching you. :punch:

[Chocoholic]

You are out of line again.

Leave FM alone, you have no right on this board to tell any poster what may or may not be a chronic state in their life.

That's a personal attack, I refer you to the TOS.

*sigh* to stoop that low...... :shrug:

[cassidy]

May their every waking moment and their nightmares be filled with the sounds of Natalee's screams and the visuals of Natalee's last moments on this earth. Wonder if Satish still sees her ghost? I certainly hope all 3 of them see her rising out of the water everytime they are on the beach.

That is what JK2 deserve, that is what I wish for them for Chistmas, New Year and the rest of their lives.

Even if they didn't do anything to her?

[HiLife]

Even if they didn't do anything to her?

And if they did?

[HiLife]

"Mos said he and the Holloway family feel pursuing a minor charge "doesn't serve a purpose." "

OOOOHHHHHH so Twitty et al want to leave a manslaughter suspicion hanging in the air.....now that the rape, kidnapping and murder has been dropped.....instead of "pursuing a minor charge". The Holloway family are determining which charges, if any, to lodge against the boys?

<snipped>

IMO

Bwahahaha!!! Maybe that's what all the "interrogations" were about? LOL - about what to charge the lying men with. Good. The Holloways deserve to be listened to and deserve to be included in the input after what they have been put through.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Bwahahaha!!! Maybe that's what all the "interrogations" were about? LOL - about what to charge the lying men with. Good. The Holloways deserve to be listened to and deserve to be included in the input after what they have been put through.

jmoThat sounds very possible.

:beer:

[Grandad]

<snip>
The Holloways deserve to be listened to and deserve to be included in the input after what they have been put through.

jmo

Absolutely not.

In Aruba, just as in the U.S., if a crime is committed, it is committed against the state. It is "the people" who are entitled to justice, not any individuals.

[fairmaiden]

Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how "competent" have they been? Call the FBI corrupt if that makes you feel better. The whole world has watched and seen that Aruba is corrupt and the ALE incompetent. They stopped anyone who could help, from helping them.

If the FBI had been able to work properly on the case, it would have been solved and the murderers behind bars already.

jmo

You say "Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how competent have they been?". What if there was nowhere to go ?? What if there wasn't any evidence when they dug up the VDS property ?? What if there just isn't any evidence of any violent crime ?? What would you expect them to do .... manufacture evidence ?? I think it's a little unfair to call KLPD "incompetent" because this hasn't been solved to your liking.

JMO

There were plenty of places "to go." KLPD had TONS of info and suspects to work with. They did not re-interview. They searched the VDS grounds and read Joran's book and laughed (according to Paulus). I believe KLPD went there in March for a nice, Spring vacation on Aruba.

They accomplished nothing. If you are so adamantly defending them, then please tell me what they did. TIA.

jmo

Bumping for Fairmaiden.

What exactly is it that KLPD did? TIA.

(going out to dinner, I'll be back!)

jmo

First of all .... I was neither "valiantly defending", nor "adamantly defending" KLPD. You called them incompetent. I questioned that .... merely QUESTIONED it. You seem to know what they did, or what they didn't do. I'm not privy to everything they did. I'm surprised you are.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Attorney John Q. Kelly of New York said he expects an announcement later this month that there will be no prosecution of van der Sloot or the other two suspects, Deepak and Satish Kalpoe, who were released Dec. 1. Kelly represents Beth Holloway and Dave Holloway.

"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning."

Kelly said his clients would not comment on van der Sloot's release. Telephone messages left Friday with the Holloways were not returned.

Authorities re-arrested van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers Nov. 21 after finding what they described as "new incriminating evidence" in Natalee Holloway's disappearance.

"It's all a dog and pony show," Kelly said. "I guess they thought it would be good PR to show they were still working on the case. But it amplifies the fact that they mishandled it from the beginning and continue to mishandle it."



AL (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/12/suspects_release_no_surprise_t.html)

"I'm sure by the end of the year the prosecutor will announce he's decided not to try the suspects on the evidence he has," Kelly said. "Since clearly they don't have enough to hold them, they don't have enough to prosecute them."

[fairmaiden]

AL (http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/12/suspects_release_no_surprise_t.html)

"I'm sure by the end of the year the prosecutor will announce he's decided not to try the suspects on the evidence he has," Kelly said. "Since clearly they don't have enough to hold them, they don't have enough to prosecute them."

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK, Luke.

~~~~"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning." ~~~~

He mentions "lack of evidence".

JMO

[Chocoholic]

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK, Luke.

~~~~"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning." ~~~~

He mentions "lack of evidence".

JMO

I guess it wouldn't help if I told you "I told you so"? ;)

[No Nic]

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK, Luke.

~~~~"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning." ~~~~

He mentions "lack of evidence".

JMO

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK.

"It's all a dog and pony show," Kelly said. "I guess they thought it would be good PR to show they were still working on the case. But it amplifies the fact that they mishandled it from the beginning and continue to mishandle it."

He mentions "Dog and Pony show". Pretty much sums up Aruba.

imo

[Luke Davis]

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK, Luke.

~~~~"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning." ~~~~

He mentions "lack of evidence".

JMO

Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)

Yes fairmaiden, it looks like it is over. Only the slimmest of hopes for success in the search. The lawsuit is our last hope. But from every report, there was no new evidence. Little old evidence, just statements that don't agree.

It does explain Dave and Beth being quiet but not exactly why.

:hat:

[HiLife]

You say "Whatever. The KLPD got nowhere - so how competent have they been?". What if there was nowhere to go ?? What if there wasn't any evidence when they dug up the VDS property ?? What if there just isn't any evidence of any violent crime ?? What would you expect them to do .... manufacture evidence ?? I think it's a little unfair to call KLPD "incompetent" because this hasn't been solved to your liking.

JMO

First of all .... I was neither "valiantly defending", nor "adamantly defending" KLPD. You called them incompetent. I questioned that .... merely QUESTIONED it. You seem to know what they did, or what they didn't do. I'm not privy to everything they did. I'm surprised you are.
JMO

Excuse me? I said no such thing so please stop twisting my words.

You sound so sure KLPD did so much. I say nothing came from their time on the Island. You said it was "unfair to call KLPD incompetent."

Well....what exactly was it that they did? Why can't I call them incompetent. What did they do, FM?

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Joe Tacopina never called Aruban LE Keystone Cops, that was Larry King.

Yes, Joe T said that the investigation was botched, but the reason in his view was because they only focused on J2K.

I know that twisting words is a favorite pastime so I just wanted to get this straight.

KING: You seem to consider this a case of Keystone Cops. Obviously, there's been international spotlight on the authorities. They have been ridiculed, they've obviously been criticized by the Holloway family extensively.

I will tell you that they botched this investigation from the get-go.

They focused on -- and rightfully so did they focus on Joran and the Kalpoe brothers from the beginning. But when the evidence did not lead them in that direction continually, they stayed there, and I think they let a lot of leads go.

You know, there was a predator that was seen on that island that accosted an American tourist just days before Natalee's disappearance right by that same area. They didn't put a composite sketch up of that individual until a year later when the new police chief came in and wanted to refocus the investigation.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/21/acd.02.html

[HiLife]

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK.

"It's all a dog and pony show," Kelly said. "I guess they thought it would be good PR to show they were still working on the case. But it amplifies the fact that they mishandled it from the beginning and continue to mishandle it."

He mentions "Dog and Pony show". Pretty much sums up Aruba.

imo

Pretty much sums up the KLPD, too. This is exactly what happened when the KLPD went to Aruba in March. A dog and pony show. Nothing happened. Except maybe a few laughs over Joran's book, IIRC.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Excuse me? I said no such thing so please stop twisting my words.

You sound so sure KLPD did so much. I say nothing came from their time on the Island. You said it was "unfair to call KLPD incompetent."

Well....what exactly was it that they did? Why can't I call them incompetent. What did they do, FM?

jmo

Ask the judge HL, I'm sure that he's fully apprised of the situation. If that doesn't please you...... :shrug:

[Chocoholic]

Pretty much sums up the KLPD, too. This is exactly what happened when the KLPD went to Aruba in March. A dog and pony show. Nothing happened. Except maybe a few laughs over Joran's book, IIRC.

jmo

Is that your professional opinion on the matter?

Maybe the FBI, Interpol and ALE didn't botch the job so badly and just like I've been saying for a while, they were just dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's".

[Xainia]

I don't believe that's quite true, HiLife. I don't believe the "whole world" has been watching this case ....
JMO
Snipped

You are correct. While this case has been mentioned on the news it was just one of many small news stories here in Australia.

Any one I ask about this case says Natalee 'who?'

The one station that carried the most coverage was the breakfast news. The one when folks are rushing around getting kids ready for school or traveling to work.

This is not the world wide news event some would like to think.

[HiLife]

Snipped

You are correct. While this case has been mentioned on the news it was just one of many small news stories here in Australia.

Any one I ask about this case says Natalee 'who?'

The one station that carried the most coverage was the breakfast news. The one when folks are rushing around getting kids ready for school or traveling to work.

This is not the world wide news event some would like to think.

Maybe those you ask don't know, but those I ask, do. They are people who are very well informed regarding what happens in the world. There are a lot of well-informed people out there in the world.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Maybe those you ask don't know, but those I ask, do. They are people who are very well informed regarding what happens in the world. There are a lot of well-informed people out there in the world.

jmo

Your world you mean?

In my experience people in the US are the least informed about the world outside the US.

International news is far more important in other countries and believe me, Natalee doesn't make "international news".

Face it, there is a very small possibility that your world is limited to those who are well informed about this case. For most of us there is another life.

[Xainia]

Maybe those you ask don't know, but those I ask, do. They are people who are very well informed regarding what happens in the world. There are a lot of well-informed people out there in the world.

jmo

People keep using the term the 'whole world' and that is simply not true.

Over at CTV the battle between sides rages and yet some posters still state the everyone knows that JK2 did it.

They are fighting each other with some cheering the fact that J2k have been released. Obviously not everyone does know.

Just for the record I think J2K know what happened to Natalee. I admit I lean more toward it being the K brothers more then Joran.

These broad statements annoy me. Pet peeve of mine.

[HiLife]

People keep using the term the 'whole world' and that is simply not true.

Over at CTV the battle between sides rages and yet some posters still state the everyone knows that JK2 did it.

They are fighting each other with some cheering the fact that J2k have been released. Obviously not everyone does know.

Just for the record I think J2K know what happened to Natalee. I admit I lean more toward it being the K brothers more then Joran.

These broad statements annoy me. Pet peeve of mine.

The "whole world" is also used as an exaggeration and should not be taken literally. Many people do know. Maybe not all the details, but enough of the story.

I've read the CTV threads and you are right, the battle rages. The moderation is a little more loose (but even still, there are some who know no bounds, a couple of the worst offenders, who I'm happy to say have been banned from that board!).

jmo

[Chocoholic]

The "whole world" is also used as an exaggeration and should not be taken literally.

Then if it is an exaggeration why do you not post it as such? The whole world isn't about your world. The whole world isn't about message boards. The whole world isn't about the entire globe?

As I explained earlier which some refused to believe, Natalee in the grand scheme of things isn't important. Her disappearance didn't really affect a boycott no matter how many people on this board wished so hard for it to be so. Her disappearance didn't overthrow a government. Her disappearance didn't change the legal system. Her disappearance didn't throw people into prison without evidence of a crime.

What did happen is that the US media looks like a bunch of idiots who have been proclaiming that the poor "victims" of a non-existent crime are still collecting funds for a barely seaworthy boat that is out looking for oil wells, OOPS I mean Natalee, of course.

imo

[ortiga]

Merry Christmas Joran, Satish, Depak and your families. May the New Year bring you peace.

May their every waking moment and their nightmares be filled with the sounds of Natalee's screams and the visuals of Natalee's last moments on this earth. Wonder if Satish still sees her ghost? I certainly hope all 3 of them see her rising out of the water everytime they are on the beach.

That is what JK2 deserve, that is what I wish for them for Chistmas, New Year and the rest of their lives.

RUmor has it that Joran is on his way to the US.

Wonder if the LE wherever he is headed will return the favor and "look the other way".


No Nic, is this a threat? Or what else do you mean by this, that wherever Joran is headed that LE will look the other way?

[Grandad]

I find these statements enlightening, coming from JQK, Luke.

~~~~"The report of significant new incriminating evidence was misleading," Kelly said. "It was the same evidence or lack of evidence they had from the very beginning." ~~~~

He mentions "lack of evidence".

JMO


Remember, this is the guy who told Greta he knew what the "new evidence" was, that it was forensic evidence, but that was all he was allowed to tell her.

Difficult to justify those two stories, isn't it?

[fairmaiden]

Excuse me? I said no such thing so please stop twisting my words.

You sound so sure KLPD did so much. I say nothing came from their time on the Island. You said it was "unfair to call KLPD incompetent."

Well....what exactly was it that they did? Why can't I call them incompetent. What did they do, FM?

jmo

((catching up)) ....

Are you aware of everything KLPD did ?? I'm not. My point was .... it's my impression you question their "competence", because, after they opened their own investigation, Natalee's disappearance still wasn't/isn't solved. As I mentioned before .... you are not going to be content until Joran et al are charged with some kind of violent crime. You question what the Judge knows or doesn't know .... in short, you question his decision to release Joran et al.

Do you think every Agency who starts off investigating a crime .... solves it ?? Of COURSE they don't. There are many unsolved mysteries in this world of ours.

I don't know everything KLPD did, HiLife. I don't believe any of us are privy to all that they might have done. I only questioned ((since this is a discussion board the last I knew)) your calling KLPD "incompetent".

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Remember, this is the guy who told Greta he knew what the "new evidence" was, that it was forensic evidence, but that was all he was allowed to tell her.

Difficult to justify those two stories, isn't it?

Yes it is, Grandad !!

[Luke Davis]

The "whole world" is also used as an exaggeration and should not be taken literally. Many people do know. Maybe not all the details, but enough of the story.

I've read the CTV threads and you are right, the battle rages. The moderation is a little more loose (but even still, there are some who know no bounds, a couple of the worst offenders, who I'm happy to say have been banned from that board!).

jmo

Half the staff was fired and the rest are on vacation, CTV will soon be no more. Those who always wanted to say something, are taking this opportunity.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)

ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

It’s obvious that the 20-year old young man, who is still on Justice’s list of suspects, has not got over the adventure of the past days yet. He has been detained for 15 days, and most of the time in isolation. “I was in a cell that could hold 15 men, but I was alone. I was allowed kick a ball so now and then and they indeed gave me the Bible. I would have preferred contact with others.”

The interrogations were heavy. “It’s not that they bothered me all the time, but every time I was interrogated, it was long. I didn’t have anything to tell them. I have already told them everything once and I was silent till the last minute.”

The arrest in his dorm in Arnhem was a complete surprise. He planned to move to Amsterdam, due to the location of his school. He hadn’t planned to go to Aruba for Christmas. “I really thought that it was over; that one day I would perhaps have to go to Aruba for the closing of the case. But I have never thought that I would be arrested again in the Netherlands. It turns out that they have nothing new here. I still do not understand what they wanted.”

Van der Sloot hates the fact that he had to miss part of his studies. He wants to go back soon. He’s not sure how long he’s going to stay on the island. “I’ll spend some time with my parents. Despite everything, Aruba is a special place. I’m going to take a plunge in the swimming pool right now.”

He will not get in contact with the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe that were released a few days earlier. The friendship seems to have cooled off ‘for years’ already. Yet another effect of the case, agrees Van der Sloot.

According to rumours in the media, Van der Sloot has taken a plane to the United States yesterday evening. The journalists concluded this from his presence at the airport. Nothing is further from the truth. He was there to see his American lawyer off. He will stay for the time being in Aruba.



http://www.amigoe.com/english/images/12-08-Joran.jpg

:hat:

[Chocoholic]

Half the staff was fired and the rest are on vacation, CTV will soon be no more. Those who always wanted to say something, are taking this opportunity.

MOO


:biggrin: It was good while it lasted.

[cassidy]

And if they did?

I've always said, if they did and there is evidence to prove it..throw the book at them. It's the evidence that is severely lacking. JMO

[ortiga]

:biggrin: It was good while it lasted.

Yes, it will alter my life in a positive way not to be called on for links every time I post. Wouldn't it be funny to have a conversation in RL with someone saying (demanding) "link to your opinion stated as fact" or "stop harrassing me" or "quit derailing the thread". I noticed that the attempt to similarly dominate the CTV NH board with such demands was roundly/soundly ignored by all the posters. I also noticed that there were 3 peaks by posters who suddenly showed up here....once when Joran's book came out. Then the activity diminished until Beth's book came out, and it was necessary to bring them up to date on what they had missed. Then the activity diminished once more and now that the year's end is approaching it's at an all time fever pitch.

IMO

:seeya:

[Chocoholic]

Yes, it will alter my life in a positive way not to be called on for links every time I post. Wouldn't it be funny to have a conversation in RL with someone saying (demanding) "link to your opinion stated as fact" or "stop harrassing me" or "quit derailing the thread". I noticed that the attempt to similarly dominate the CTV NH board with such demands was roundly/soundly ignored by all the posters. I also noticed that there were 3 peaks by posters who suddenly showed up here....once when Joran's book came out. Then the activity diminished until Beth's book came out, and it was necessary to bring them up to date on what they had missed. Then the activity diminished once more and now that the year's end is approaching it's at an all time fever pitch.

IMO

:seeya:

Goodmorning Ortiga, everybody else!

Seems like everybody stays on their own less public boards most of the time until doo doo hits the fan. I think the fat lady has sung. The case will be closed Dec. 31, regardless of outrage. Hopefully ALL the suspects can now get on with their lives.

I continue to believe that Natalee is alive and happy until somebody can prove me wrong.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K0DCKQ4FL._AA240_.jpg

There's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here......

:seeya:

[ortiga]

Goodmorning Ortiga, everybody else!

Seems like everybody stays on their own less public boards most of the time until doo doo hits the fan. I think the fat lady has sung. The case will be closed Dec. 31, regardless of outrage. Hopefully ALL the suspects can now get on with their lives.

I continue to believe that Natalee is alive and happy until somebody can prove me wrong.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K0DCKQ4FL._AA240_.jpg

There's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here......

:seeya:

I'm not of the strong opinion that she's still alive, it would be my 3rd choice after drowning while swimming under the influence and going off with some guy from the SBF. Then my 3rd choice(s) are being alive somewhere or the MB kids witnessing her death by OD and using their connections to get rid of her body.

Obviously it's time to move on, these 3 young guys have already paid the price for their initial lies, where else in the world would young people, even an underage teenager spend months in jail and be declared suspects in a suspected crime for more than 2.5 years with no proof, even of a crime having been committed.

Yep, the fat lady is in the middle of high C, and to paraphrase yogi berra....it's ovah now that it's ovah!

[fairmaiden]

Goodmorning Ortiga, everybody else!

Seems like everybody stays on their own less public boards most of the time until doo doo hits the fan. I think the fat lady has sung. The case will be closed Dec. 31, regardless of outrage. Hopefully ALL the suspects can now get on with their lives.

I continue to believe that Natalee is alive and happy until somebody can prove me wrong.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K0DCKQ4FL._AA240_.jpg

There's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here...... there's an echo in here......

:seeya:

LOL with your "echo" Choco .... lol

Well .... I think the "doo doo hit the fan" very recently, with the release of Joran et al. Since the Judge's ruling .... it's clear to me, there is no evidence of a violent crime !! Like I said when he MADE the ruling, it's one of the most definitive things said in this case.

It's one of the most baffling cases, but I've always felt SOMETHING is not what it appears to be. On the other hand, it might be something very simple .... she may have died accidentally, if we are to believe she is dead. I believe it was Luke who posted something last week ((God Bless Luke, by the way for all his links)), about someone who had disappeared for years, and all of a sudden showed up.

Lately, on the CTV board, for example .... questions are being asked about the "Funds" .... rightfully so, in my opinion. Questions have been asked all along about these funds .... there are no satisfactory answers. I would like to know what the money donated was used for .... I think others would like to know also. Do those who donated DESERVE an answer to those questions ?? I believe they do.

Hopefully there will be some resolution to Natalee's disappearance .... some day.

JMO

[HiLife]

Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)

:hat:

I see Julia/Glenda is maintaining her perfect record of 100% false information. This one was debunked quite quickly. Even Joran realizes he is persona non grata here in the U.S.

jmo

[HiLife]

I've always said, if they did and there is evidence to prove it..throw the book at them. It's the evidence that is severely lacking. JMO

A mountain of Circumstantial Evidence is there. Unfortunately, the Aruban justice/legal system is baffling, especially when it was linked on the board that they do not have pre-trial detention for possible suspicion of a cover-up and bodily harm!

Looks like they need a video.

jmo

[ortiga]

Lately, on the CTV board, for example .... questions are being asked about the "Funds" .... rightfully so, in my opinion. Questions have been asked all along about these funds .... there are no satisfactory answers. I would like to know what the money donated was used for .... I think others would like to know also. Do those who donated DESERVE an answer to those questions ?? I believe they do.

Hopefully there will be some resolution to Natalee's disappearance .... some day.

JMO

Yep, we can only compare the scrutiny given the donated funds in the McCann case with the lack of scrutiny in the Holloway Twitty funds. No matter which side of the Atlantic you are one, or no matter which side you take in each case, no matter if you approve of what the McCann money was spent on, the disparity is glaringly obvious...at least it wasn't hidden in the UK situation. And I, for one, seriously doubt that we will see Kate McCann ever show up with a new facial features as Twitty did, leaving the question open as to where the money came from.

I think we all hope we learn what happened to Natalee, no one likes a vacuum like that...but then there are missing people all over America, all over the world, and not one of them is more important than another one. And the lives of 3 boys in Aruba that have not been connected with a crime in any way are just as important as any of the missing persons.

Let them get on with their lives without further hassle or harrassment. If this disappearance had taken place in America the boys wouldn't have been in jail. And, if it weren't for the money grubbing cable shows their faces and names would not even have been on TV or in the papers, but the Americans did not have respect for any aspect of the law in foreign countries....after all there was money to be made.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

I see Julia/Glenda is maintaining her perfect record of 100% false information. This one was debunked quite quickly. Even Joran realizes he is persona non grata here in the U.S.

jmo

Can you please provide a credible link that shows that Julia Renfrew is Glenda on RU? TIA

Any reason Joran would WANT to go to the US?

[Chocoholic]

A mountain of Circumstantial Evidence is there. Unfortunately, the Aruban justice/legal system is baffling, especially when it was linked on the board that they do not have pre-trial detention for possible suspicion of a cover-up and bodily harm!

Looks like they need a video.

jmo

For 2.5 yrs people have attempted to educate posters here about the Dutch and Aruban legal system. Some people appear to have caught on :shrug:

[Chocoholic]

Yep, we can only compare the scrutiny given the donated funds in the McCann case with the lack of scrutiny in the Holloway Twitty funds. No matter which side of the Atlantic you are one, or no matter which side you take in each case, no matter if you approve of what the McCann money was spent on, the disparity is glaringly obvious...at least it wasn't hidden in the UK situation. And I, for one, seriously doubt that we will see Kate McCann ever show up with a new facial features as Twitty did, leaving the question open as to where the money came from.

I think we all hope we learn what happened to Natalee, no one likes a vacuum like that...but then there are missing people all over America, all over the world, and not one of them is more important than another one. And the lives of 3 boys in Aruba that have not been connected with a crime in any way are just as important as any of the missing persons.

Let them get on with their lives without further hassle or harrassment. If this disappearance had taken place in America the boys wouldn't have been in jail. And, if it weren't for the money grubbing cable shows their faces and names would not even have been on TV or in the papers, but the Americans did not have respect for any aspect of the law in foreign countries....after all there was money to be made.

IMO

I phoned Tom Twitty, the uncle who was the point of contact for the trust, and he told me that not only would he not share any information concerning the money with me, but that he did not have to give “any information on one dime of that money to anyone.” Huh? What an odd thing for the manager of just one fund set up to find a missing woman to say. I was hung up on with an insult.

Rick Swagler, the public affairs person at the bank in Alabama holding the account, told me that the bank does not give out information concerning “personal accounts.” He did say that the amount in the trust was “quite substantial” and that Tom Twitty was in charge.


http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/29586.html

I wonder if beth ever publicly or even privately thanked all the people for the donations which didn't go towards finding her daughter.

[fairmaiden]

Yep, we can only compare the scrutiny given the donated funds in the McCann case with the lack of scrutiny in the Holloway Twitty funds. No matter which side of the Atlantic you are one, or no matter which side you take in each case, no matter if you approve of what the McCann money was spent on, the disparity is glaringly obvious...at least it wasn't hidden in the UK situation. And I, for one, seriously doubt that we will see Kate McCann ever show up with a new facial features as Twitty did, leaving the question open as to where the money came from.

I think we all hope we learn what happened to Natalee, no one likes a vacuum like that...but then there are missing people all over America, all over the world, and not one of them is more important than another one. And the lives of 3 boys in Aruba that have not been connected with a crime in any way are just as important as any of the missing persons.

Let them get on with their lives without further hassle or harrassment. If this disappearance had taken place in America the boys wouldn't have been in jail. And, if it weren't for the money grubbing cable shows their faces and names would not even have been on TV or in the papers, but the Americans did not have respect for any aspect of the law in foreign countries....after all there was money to be made.

IMO

GREAT post, ortiga!!

I agree with all of it, but your last paragraph hits the nail right on the head !! Night after night we would see "coverage" of this .... curiously though, not on the major networks. Those networks certainly gave this minimal coverage, but that was it. Ratings were very important .... the WORST offender, IMO, being Dr. Phil. Wasn't HE the one who said he had "credible evidence" of Natalee being alive in So. America somewhere ?? Something about the "sex trade" ?? I hope he pays dearly for his part in this mess.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

GREAT post, ortiga!!

I agree with all of it, but your last paragraph hits the nail right on the head !! Night after night we would see "coverage" of this .... curiously though, not on the major networks. Those networks certainly gave this minimal coverage, but that was it. Ratings were very important .... the WORST offender, IMO, being Dr. Phil. Wasn't HE the one who said he had "credible evidence" of Natalee being alive in So. America somewhere ?? Something about the "sex trade" ?? I hope he pays dearly for his part in this mess.

JMO

Yup and the skeeterized tape which would be HUGE.

[HiLife]

I phoned Tom Twitty, the uncle who was the point of contact for the trust, and he told me that not only would he not share any information concerning the money with me, but that he did not have to give “any information on one dime of that money to anyone.” Huh? What an odd thing for the manager of just one fund set up to find a missing woman to say. I was hung up on with an insult.

Rick Swagler, the public affairs person at the bank in Alabama holding the account, told me that the bank does not give out information concerning “personal accounts.” He did say that the amount in the trust was “quite substantial” and that Tom Twitty was in charge.


http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/29586.html

<snipped>




The above post is exactly why no one would ever answer such a ridiculous inquiry such as Swagler's. Anything having to do with financial affairs is usually confidential. If Mr. Swagler had any integrity, he wouldn't even be writing such drivel. Good decision by Tom Twitty. Looks like he said "NO" to the right person.

jmo

[HiLife]

For 2.5 yrs people have attempted to educate posters here about the Dutch and Aruban legal system. Some people appear to have caught on :shrug:

Thank you. Yes, we have caught on. No justice on Aruba.

jmo

[HiLife]

Can you please provide a credible link that shows that Julia Renfrew is Glenda on RU? TIA

Any reason Joran would WANT to go to the US?

Please re-read my post. Nowhere does it mention RU.

And no, there is no reason Joran should want to come to the U.S. The U.S. has enough trouble keeping the streets safe from people like him.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Please re-read my post. Nowhere does it mention RU.

And no, there is no reason Joran should want to come to the U.S. The U.S. has enough trouble keeping the streets safe from people like him.

jmo

Can you find a credible link ANYwhere that shows that Julia Renfrew posts as Glenda?

You're absolutely right the US has more than enough trouble keeping it's streets free of crime.

[Chocoholic]

Thank you. Yes, we have caught on. No justice on Aruba.

jmo

I'm sure that you would feel far more comfortable having false evidence planted, and have three innocent men convicted of a non-existent crime but unfortunately for you and the family neither the Dutch nor Aruban legal system work that way.

[Chocoholic]

The above post is exactly why no one would ever answer such a ridiculous inquiry such as Swagler's. Anything having to do with financial affairs is usually confidential. If Mr. Swagler had any integrity, he wouldn't even be writing such drivel. Good decision by Tom Twitty. Looks like he said "NO" to the right person.

jmo

Interesting though that so many people have donated so much money but the funds to which they have contributed (to pay for finding Natalee) were never paid to Equusearch. They weren't given a dime by the Twitty/Holloway gang. Their Aruba stays were mostly comped and you wonder why people would like to know why beth can afford a face lift but won't pay the volunteer organization which is AGAIN trying to find her daughter?

I think people have a full right to know!

[HiLife]

I'm sure that you would feel far more comfortable having false evidence planted, and have three innocent men convicted of a non-existent crime but unfortunately for you and the family neither the Dutch nor Aruban legal system work that way.
I don't think it is asking for much to expect that the Chief Prosecutor not get before the TV cameras and say he has "new evidence" when he does NOT. Is that how the Dutch and Aruban legal system work?

Do not presume to tell me what I am or am not "comfortable" with. Stop making it personal or it can go back to the echoing.

jmo

[HiLife]

Interesting though that so many people have donated so much money but the funds to which they have contributed (to pay for finding Natalee) were never paid to Equusearch. They weren't given a dime by the Twitty/Holloway gang. Their Aruba stays were mostly comped and you wonder why people would like to know why beth can afford a face lift but won't pay the volunteer organization which is AGAIN trying to find her daughter?

I think people have a full right to know!

I don't know what has been paid or not? Last I'd heard, Tim Miller would not accept the payment from the Holloways. The Holloways are honorable people, IMO.

If you know otherwise about the finances, and/or terms of financial agreements you state above, it would be appreciated if you could please show where this information is, so we can know, too.

jmo

[ortiga]

I don't think it is asking for much to expect that the Chief Prosecutor not get before the TV cameras and say he has "new evidence" when he does NOT. Is that how the Dutch and Aruban legal system work?

Do not presume to tell me what I am or am not "comfortable" with. Stop making it personal or it can go back to the echoing.

jmo


I thought JQK got before the camera and said that the evidence was forensic, and that he'd been in touch with the prosecutors office for weeks.

Then a few days ago we learned that the Holloway family did not want to continue with the p(er)secution unless the crime was grave. I think they would rather try to leave it in the minds of the cable followers that Natalee was predated upon, kidnapping, murdered, chopped up, etc. Unfortunately none of those suspected crimes remain, so now they are not interested any more?



IMO

[ortiga]

Interesting though that so many people have donated so much money but the funds to which they have contributed (to pay for finding Natalee) were never paid to Equusearch. They weren't given a dime by the Twitty/Holloway gang. Their Aruba stays were mostly comped and you wonder why people would like to know why beth can afford a face lift but won't pay the volunteer organization which is AGAIN trying to find her daughter?

I think people have a full right to know!

How much did she make when she auctioned off the signed Call me Hootie poster with her poor daughter's picture on it?

[cassidy]

A mountain of Circumstantial Evidence is there. Unfortunately, the Aruban justice/legal system is baffling, especially when it was linked on the board that they do not have pre-trial detention for possible suspicion of a cover-up and bodily harm!

Looks like they need a video.

jmo

Guess I just don't see that mountain :shrug:

[Chocoholic]

How much did she make when she auctioned off the signed Call me Hootie poster with her poor daughter's picture on it?

Reportedly $600

[ortiga]

Reportedly $600

I wonder if she just signed Beth Holloway Twitty or Beth Twitty, or if she signed it personally for the one who reportedly paid $600. Like when some authors sign books. "Especially for John Smith, good luck in the future.........., Beth Twitty, mother of the missing American tourist whose missing poster you bought."

IMO

[cassidy]

I don't know what has been paid or not? Last I'd heard, Tim Miller would not accept the payment from the Holloways. The Holloways are honorable people, IMO.

If you know otherwise about the finances, and/or terms of financial agreements you state above, it would be appreciated if you could please show where this information is, so we can know, too.

jmo

And that's just one of my personal sticky points. The money donated to the search for Natalee fund is NOT personal money of the Holloway-Twitty's. It is money donated by people all over the world SPECIFICALLY to aid in the search for Natalee. I cannot for the life of me, understand why Tim Miller would turn down such funds. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

And that's just one of my personal sticky points. The money donated to the search for Natalee fund is NOT personal money of the Holloway-Twitty's. It is money donated by people all over the world SPECIFICALLY to aid in the search for Natalee. I cannot for the life of me, understand why Tim Miller would turn down such funds. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

IMO

Nor why $500,000 was donated by an unnamed source for that tub to chug it's way down to Aruba, supposedly to look for Natalee's remains which are conveniently located close to some oil wells.

[fairmaiden]

And that's just one of my personal sticky points. The money donated to the search for Natalee fund is NOT personal money of the Holloway-Twitty's. It is money donated by people all over the world SPECIFICALLY to aid in the search for Natalee. I cannot for the life of me, understand why Tim Miller would turn down such funds. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

IMO

cassidy .... It's something I don't understand either. There was money specifically donated to search for Natalee. IF Tim Miller refused to take this money .... the family should have INSISTED he use it. What did the family use that money for ?? You're correct, it wasn't their "personal" money.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

I'm not sure whether anyone saw this before or not .... but I just saw it today.

http://www.courttv.com/news/holloway/121007_ap.html

[terrysdoor]

Guess I just don't see that mountain :shrug:

I don`t either Cassidy and it seems the prosecutor can`t produce enough evidence to charge with a crime IMO

[Chocoholic]

I'm not sure whether anyone saw this before or not .... but I just saw it today.

http://www.courttv.com/news/holloway/121007_ap.html

Thanks FM, yeah he's promised that he would close the case on the 31st, which is why it was stunning that he would haul all 3 back in with his supposed new evidence on lesser suspicions.

I think Hans Mos would be a fool to try and get this case back in court unless he has SUBSTANTIAL evidence, because wasting the court's time is never a good idea. It tends to really PO the judges.

[Chocoholic]

I don`t either Cassidy and it seems the prosecutor can`t produce enough evidence to charge with a crime IMO

More importantly, the judge didn't see ANY evidence of a crime.

[Luke Davis]

IRS charitites (http://apps.irs.gov/portal/site/pub78/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.72f1796ad102792acd9e6be24937a759/?javax.portlet.tpst=289c57ca6035546c47564fe84937a7 59_ws_MX&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token#)

IRS Lookup (http://apps.irs.gov/portal/site/pub78/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.72f1796ad102792acd9e6be24937a759/?javax.portlet.tpst=289c57ca6035546c47564fe84937a7 59_ws_MX&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token)

Natalee Holloway Foundation (Until December 2010) Meridan MS USA
International Safe Travels Foundation

[Chocoholic]

IRS charitites (http://apps.irs.gov/portal/site/pub78/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.72f1796ad102792acd9e6be24937a759/?javax.portlet.tpst=289c57ca6035546c47564fe84937a7 59_ws_MX&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token#)

IRS Lookup (http://apps.irs.gov/portal/site/pub78/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.72f1796ad102792acd9e6be24937a759/?javax.portlet.tpst=289c57ca6035546c47564fe84937a7 59_ws_MX&javax.portlet.begCacheTok=token&javax.portlet.endCacheTok=token)

Natalee Holloway Foundation (Until December 2010) Meridan MS USA
International Safe Travels Foundation

Thanks Luke!

[Chocoholic]

Star Jones Show 12/10 TJ Ward, Paul Reynolds TRANSCRIPT
Start Jones Show
Court TV
December 10, 2007

Transcribed from DVD Recording

Star:

The Aruban prosecutor says he will close the case by the end of the month unless he finds evidence, enough evidence to charge someone with a major crime.

Michael Archer is the forensic scientist for Joran van der Sloot's defense team and T J Ward is an investigator working with Natalee's father, Dave Holloway.

Michael, I'm actually going to start with you. When Joran and the Kalpoe brothers were re-arrested aruban authorities said they were (inaudible) because of new evidence in the case and unless I miss my guess, there was no new evidence.

Archer:

That's right Star. This was much ado about nothing. Hans Mos led us to believe there was incriminating new evidence and this was going to close the case

Star:

Is it that there was no evidence or there was not substantial enough evidence to charge somebody with anything.

Archer:

There was no new evidence. It was simply re-hashing what they had, re-interpreting cell phone conversations that could be interpreted a million different ways. With their tunnel vision, they took it their way and wanted to celebrate that and it was outrageous

Star:

So basically you're talking about looking at the same stuff, just new people looking at it

Archer:

I think that's a fair statement

Star:

I'm concerned obviously and I'm going to talk to T J and actually in a little while a member of the Holloway family about not only for your client, who obviously you all are concerned with, but this re-opens a wound for the Holloway family and sort of (inaudible) everybody else up for something which seems like a bit of PR to me

Archer:

You know Star, it's incredibly unfair to the Holloway family to lead them to believe that Natalee maybe could be found, maybe this case could be solved. It's just grossly unfair, the wrong thing for Hans Mos to have done

Star:

Well now, let's move to your client, not only do you say there's no evidence against Joran, you say the absence of evidence is very telling

Archer:

Sometimes in forensics the absence of evidence is as remarkable as the presence of evidence.

Star:

What would you expect to see? Because I know that you did almost a minute by minute walk through of the minutes leading up to Natalee's disappearance and the minutes afterwards and you found something very interesting

Archer:

I did, I drove from Carlos & Charlie's up towards the lighthouse where Natalee wanted to see the sharks, we turned around in the very parking lot they turned around in, we went to the fishermen's huts, got out, I walked the beach and then we went to the hotel, we went to Natalee's room, all the points of interest we covered and I reviewed the file from top to bottom. There's no evidence that a crime was committed, nevermind that my client, Joran van der Sloot was involved in Natalee's disappearance.

Star:

So what do you think happened then?

Archer:

I don't know, there's other explanations though other than Joran killed Natalee which everyone seems to want to celebrate and make such a big deal out of. She was intoxicated on the beach that night, that's a given. Did she go for a swim, did she drown, there's many different explanations that should be considered that I don't think were.

Star:

You also, in addition to going step by step and from place to place, you've come to the conclusion that there wasn't enough time for Joran van der Sloot to have committed any sort of act that would have led to her disappearance.

Archer:

Right, we're talking about a 17 year old kid who, by his own admission and by the videotape had had a few drinks that night

Star:

He was drunk, come on

Archer:

I'm not going to say that

Star:

He was drunk, I will

Archer:

If Joran was half drunk, somewhat intoxicated at 17, he has a window of 18 minutes to have killed Natalee, eliminated the crime scene, saw to it that every piece of forensic evidence that may have existed in the car, on his person, on his clothes disappeared and then disposed of the body in such a way that the world's greatest forensic sleuths 2-1/2 years later can't find. It's ridiculous.

Star:

You're saying it defies logic in addition to just common sense.

Archer:

That's right

Star:

Fair enough. Do you think there's a possibility that the prosecutor could change his mind by the end of the month?

Archer:

Anything's possible in this case you know based on last month's antics, sure it's a possibility. We certainly hope that's not the case. There was an appellate court ruling that the media hasn't covered that I think is very important. The Appellate Court in addressing the Kalpoe brothers release said there's no evidence that a crime was committed. There's no evidence that Natalee died as a result of foul play. Absent that evidence, you can't have suspects and hopefully Hans Mos takes that Appellate Court ruling to heart

Star:

Now you saw Joran

Archer:

I spoke to Joran, yes I was with Joran immediately when he was released from jail and I spoke to him at that point and I spoke to him shortly thereafter.

Star:

How were his spirits?

Archer:

You know, Joran is hopeful that the end of the month will bring closure to this case so this cloud does not hang over him but at the same time Joran would love to see Natalee Holloway found because he thinks it would give an explanation of what happened and eliminate this cloud of suspicion that's going to follow him for the rest of his life.

Star:

No matter what happens, let's go ahead and bring T J Ward into this, a private investigator for Dave Holloway. I know the last thing you wanted to hear T J was that this investigation was going to be closed but in some ways what occurred over the last 2 weeks has been very, very painful for the Holloway family wouldn't you agree?

T J Ward:

I would agree and thanks for having me on Star. I'd like to say that I'm not disappointed, but I am disappointed though I'm not surprised at what transpires in Aruba. I think the american people need to know that the course of what they consider an arrest in Aruba is not the same as an arrest in the United States. If you know of evidence or have evidence or witness or have information they need to know, they have the right to take you into custody and hold you for 9 days before they have to take you before a Judge and I'm real surprised since the Holland authorities have gotten involved that that transpired again. I'm real disappointed with it and I thought they had something to hang their hat on but obviously they didn't.

[Chocoholic]

The mere fact that the boys were last seen with Natalee when they left Carlos & Charlie's does make them suspects and I believe they need to remain as suspects and irrespectful of whatever evidence they have or what they don't have and we don't know what all the government has because it's not public record to not only the attorneys but to people like me or any other person that's looking into this.

I understand that Tim Miller has orchestrated a foundation to bring a boat in

Star:

That's the Equusearch people, we've talking about them many times here on this show, let me just let our audience know T J; they are one of the best when it comes to searching for missing people and obviously have the resources to bring to bear and I know they have been of great assistance in Natalee's investigation. I understand the new thing that is hopefully going to happen, can you fill us in on that with this particular kind of boat, this vessel that can search the ocean floor

T J Ward:

I would say that, I believe that, I don't believe the boys killed her from the course of our investigation. I don't believe that that happened.

I think something happened to her and I think a third party, whether that's Paulus van der Sloot from some evidence that we have, may be involved in taking Natalee's body off the island or having somebody take the body off the island and this has just surprised me that they brought all 3 of the boys back in but they didn't bring Paulus van der Sloot back in, who has been arrested twice since the case originated.

Star:

I want to be clear on what I heard you say T J, you think Natalee may not have been killed in the traditional sense that we may think but that she died as a result of whatever occurred that night and in an effort to cover up her death, she was disposed of

T J Ward:

Yes, I think something happened and I've said that all along, I think Natalee either stopped breathing, had a heart attack, fell and hit her head but something happened and somebody else is involved, the boys contacted somebody else and the body was taken or disposed of off the island from information that I have that Natalee's body was taken off the island by somebody, not by the boys but I'm real surprised becaused some of the information that I have leads to Paulus van der Sloot having knowledge to this occurring.

Star:

T J I want you to hold on because I know that the Holloway family has put up with just more than any family should have to put up with so in the last few minutes I do want to be joined on the phone by Paul Reynolds who is Beth's brother, Natalee's uncle

Paul, I know that you have spoken to your family about this, what are the family's plans now that the aruban prosecutor has announced that he is probably going to close the case at the end of the month?

Paul Reynolds:

Star, first I need to tell you that we're literally shocked that these suspects have been released. We are aware and everyone knows that these suspects have lied from the beginning; they have accused each other of murder; they have led the authorities on one wild goose chase after another to cover up their crime.

The prosecutor must have had some reason to bring this case back into the light and we have one Judge who said there's reason to hold them and then another Judge says there's no reason to hold them 16 days later.

Star:

But Paul as you listen to this, you know you've heard investigators with your family, investigators with the defendant's family, I should say the suspect's family since they've never been charged, and looking at the evidence dispassionately, just looking at the evidence, it doesn't seem that there's enough to charge anyone with anything significant.

Now I know that there has always been some question as to what their veracity was from the beginning. There's no question there was some finger pointing, no question that in this country I might be looking at obstruction of justice but Paul, if in fact you can't bring the significant, the major charge would your family still want one of those minor charges to be broughtZ?

Paul Reynolds:

We want all charges to be brought and we don't consider obstruction of justice or interfering with an investigation as a minor charge. We consider that to be very serious

Star:

But in our country it is and that's a big difference. We're looking at some of the law Paul and the lying if you will, what we might call obstruction is used to enhance charges when you're in Aruba, it's not the charge that they bring you in on and then I was just looking at some information according to the prosecutor's office, they said that the immediate family did not want these men charged with minor charges, they wanted some closure and know what happened to their child

Paul Reynolds:

I think we have to look at what's available, it's clear they were lying, they interfered with this investigation and even today, the 3 suspects don't agree on what happened. Certainly that leads anyone to believe they have a high level of responsibility and they should be pursued.

The fact that these Judges are making these decisions individually with secret information causes us a great deal of concern. The night of the original Search Warrant, the search was supposed to be the entire property; it's my understanding that one of the Judges was waiting at the home of the van der Sloots and interfered in the investigation and the search by changing the criteria and only allowing the search of Joran's small apartment and not the main house where Joran had obviously been earlier that day

Star;

You know what Paul, I can't let that just hang here because that's not fair to put out bare bone allegations, that's not fair and I know you Michael definitely disagree with that

Archer:

I do disagree with it and I myself searched the property last week and I have photographs documenting where the authorities searched. To say that the authorities only searched Joran's room is completely untrue. That's a misstatement.

Star:

This is the kind of thing we've encountered Paul, Michael, T J that we over here in this country have been getting information from several different sources. I know that everybody who is having this discussion, the four of us can agree on is that the investigators from Day 1 did not do the job that would do justice for Natalee, do justice for the people who are suspected, do justice for the families. I don't think they did their job and I think that's something everybody can agree on, that this investigation was screwed from the beginning.

Archer:

I agree with you Star. 2-1/2 years later my client suffers under this cloud of suspicion and it will never go away

Star:

And Natalee's family suffers under the cloud of not having their baby with them.

Archer:

Absolutely

Star:

I want to thank Michael Archer, T J Ward, Paul Reynolds for their contribution to this discussion

[Chocoholic]

Public smackdown for the family.

imo

[ortiga]

Paul Reynolds:

We want all charges to be brought and we don't consider obstruction of justice or interfering with an investigation as a minor charge. We consider that to be very serious

Star:

But in our country it is and that's a big difference. We're looking at some of the law Paul and the lying if you will, what we might call obstruction is used to enhance charges when you're in Aruba, it's not the charge that they bring you in on and then I was just looking at some information according to the prosecutor's office, they said that the immediate family did not want these men charged with minor charges, they wanted some closure and know what happened to their child

Paul Reynolds:

I think we have to look at what's available, it's clear they were lying, they interfered with this investigation and even today, the 3 suspects don't agree on what happened. Certainly that leads anyone to believe they have a high level of responsibility and they should be pursued.

The fact that these Judges are making these decisions individually with secret information causes us a great deal of concern. The night of the original Search Warrant, the search was supposed to be the entire property; it's my understanding that one of the Judges was waiting at the home of the van der Sloots and interfered in the investigation and the search by changing the criteria and only allowing the search of Joran's small apartment and not the main house where Joran had obviously been earlier that day

Star;

You know what Paul, I can't let that just hang here because that's not fair to put out bare bone allegations, that's not fair and I know you Michael definitely disagree with that
------------------------------------------------
Too bad there weren't interviewers like this when Twitty was spewing her unfounded gang rape charges against the boys wherever and whenever she could. Funny, I never heard TJ Ward speak up then.

IMO

[HiLife]

And that's just one of my personal sticky points. The money donated to the search for Natalee fund is NOT personal money of the Holloway-Twitty's. It is money donated by people all over the world SPECIFICALLY to aid in the search for Natalee. I cannot for the life of me, understand why Tim Miller would turn down such funds. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

IMO

Just getting back on, cassidy.

I don't understand why he would turn down that money either, cassidy. But again, what do we really know? Also, we must remember that we do not know how much the Holloways received or what was paid out or for what.

I believe the "fund" is subject to those ubiquitous (usually false) rumors attached to this case. The amount of the fund has been blown out of proportion by those wanting to find more fault with the Holloway family.

jmo

[HiLife]

Public smackdown for the family.

imo

By Star Jones? <rolling Santa> :biggrin:

[ortiga]

snipped
I believe the "fund" is subject to those ubiquitous (usually false) rumors attached to this case. The amount of the fund has been blown out of proportion by those wanting to find more fault with the Holloway family.

jmo

Is that one of those ubiquitous usually false rumors?

[ortiga]

Public smackdown for the family.

imo

About time. About time.

[Luke Davis]

Public smackdown for the family.

imoI've always thought there just wasn't enough time. :shrug:

[HiLife]

Star Jones Show 12/10 TJ Ward, Paul Reynolds TRANSCRIPT
Start Jones Show
Court TV
December 10, 2007

Transcribed from DVD Recording

Star:

Archer:

That's right Star. This was much ado about nothing. Hans Mos led us to believe there was incriminating new evidence and this was going to close the case

Star:

Is it that there was no evidence or there was not substantial enough evidence to charge somebody with anything.

Archer:

You know Star, it's incredibly unfair to the Holloway family to lead them to believe that Natalee maybe could be found, maybe this case could be solved. It's just grossly unfair, the wrong thing for Hans Mos to have done

Archer:

I did, I drove from Carlos & Charlie's up towards the lighthouse where Natalee wanted to see the sharks, we turned around in the very parking lot they turned around in, we went to the fishermen's huts, got out, I walked the beach and then we went to the hotel, we went to Natalee's room, all the points of interest we covered and I reviewed the file from top to bottom. There's no evidence that a crime was committed, nevermind that my client, Joran van der Sloot was involved in Natalee's disappearance.
Star:

T J Ward:

I would agree and thanks for having me on Star. I'd like to say that I'm not disappointed, but I am disappointed though I'm not surprised at what transpires in Aruba. I think the american people need to know that the course of what they consider an arrest in Aruba is not the same as an arrest in the United States.

If you know of evidence or have evidence or witness or have information they need to know, they have the right to take you into custody and hold you for 9 days before they have to take you before a Judge and I'm real surprised since the Holland authorities have gotten involved that that transpired again. I'm real disappointed with it and I thought they had something to hang their hat on but obviously they didn't.

Thanks for posting this - it gave me a few laughs. Sounds like everyone is in agreement that Hans Mos is a LIAR.

I'm, ROFLMBO about Archer going the "route" from that night - and actually says - "where Natalee said she wanted to see sharks..." OMG. Joran said that Natalee said. 'Nuff said. :rolleyes:

LOL - what do we expect Joran's defense attorney to say....that he's guilty? :rolleyes:

This was hilarious. Aruba is looking worse and worse and rightfully so.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Just getting back on, cassidy.

I don't understand why he would turn down that money either, cassidy. But again, what do we really know? Also, we must remember that we do not know how much the Holloways received or what was paid out or for what.

I believe the "fund" is subject to those ubiquitous (usually false) rumors attached to this case. The amount of the fund has been blown out of proportion by those wanting to find more fault with the Holloway family.

jmoAt one time, I had a good idea of the minimum but no way of knowing the maximum. I believe Marcia announced how much was received from the celebrity auction. There was an estimate of bracelet sales. Some large donations were announced.

[Chocoholic]

Too bad there weren't interviewers like this when Twitty was spewing her unfounded gang rape charges against the boys wherever and whenever she could. Funny, I never heard TJ Ward speak up then.

IMO

This is the first interview that I've seen that is more balanced, and it's about time after 2.5 yrs.

[HiLife]

Star:

But Paul as you listen to this, you know you've heard investigators with your family, investigators with the defendant's family, I should say the suspect's family since they've never been charged, and looking at the evidence dispassionately, just looking at the evidence, it doesn't seem that there's enough to charge anyone with anything significant.

Archer:

I agree with you Star. 2-1/2 years later my client suffers under this cloud of suspicion and it will never go away

Star:

And Natalee's family suffers under the cloud of not having their baby with them.



A matter of semantics and Star nails it. What is "significant" to Aruba is different than what is "significant" in the U.S.

Yes, I agree with Archer - Joran will have that cloud over his head the rest of his life. Just those first lies on that first night is enough for Joran to deserve this. He cruelly and callously lied to a family about where to look for their daughter. A young woman he "supposedly" left alone, at night, on a dark, deserted beach.

jmo

[HiLife]

At one time, I had a good idea of the minimum but no way of knowing the maximum. I believe Marcia announced how much was received from the celebrity auction. There was an estimate of bracelet sales. Some large donations were announced.

I wonder how much, exactly? There's also the fact that people "pledge" and don't come through. I believe this is the first case to garner so much money (stand to be corrected).

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Thanks for posting this - it gave me a few laughs. Sounds like everyone is in agreement that Hans Mos is a LIAR.

I'm, ROFLMBO about Archer going the "route" from that night - and actually says - "where Natalee said she wanted to see sharks..." OMG. Joran said that Natalee said. 'Nuff said. :rolleyes:

LOL - what do expect Joran's defense attorney to say....that he's guilty? :rolleyes:

This was hilarious. Aruba is looking worse and worse and rightfully so.

jmo

Did you see or hear TJ pipe up and deny any of it or is he just a tad clueless?

[HiLife]

Did you see or hear TJ pipe up and deny any of it or is he just a tad clueless?

Are we back to the "he/she didn't deny it so it must be true" argument? I'm sure he defended points he thought important.

I saw that TJ feels Paulus should have been arrested. This case is a mess. There is something there buried deep in all those lies. The answer lies with V2K2.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Are we back to the "he/she didn't deny it so it must be true" argument? I'm sure he defended points he thought important.

I saw that TJ feels Paulus should have been arrested. This case is a mess. There is something there buried deep in all those lies. The answer lies with V2K2.

jmo

LMAO yeah TJ also said oh about 2.5 yrs ago that the case would be solved in about 3 days.

[fairmaiden]

LMAO yeah TJ also said oh about 2.5 yrs ago that the case would be solved in about 3 days.

Yes, Chco .... Then he seems to have disappeared for a while.

I remember he used to be on "Catherine Crier" a lot ((I STILL miss her)) . I can't think of time I saw him, or heard him by phone, when he didn't say that he was "working on something". Of course, he couldn't tell what it was he was "working on". Then he would finish by saying the case would be solved very shortly.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Are we back to the "he/she didn't deny it so it must be true" argument? I'm sure he defended points he thought important.

I saw that TJ feels Paulus should have been arrested. This case is a mess. There is something there buried deep in all those lies. The answer lies with V2K2.

jmo

You and I are in agreement, HiLife. This case is a mess.

JMO

[HiLife]

You and I are in agreement, HiLife. This case is a mess.

JMO

Yes, a mess. Too, too bad it has to be left like this. :(

[Chocoholic]

2 seconds to pop in and say hi!
All it boils down to is that one judge, he has been there from the begining. Other judges have said there is enough evidence, it's just this one judge.
Says it all for me. If they wanted a truly honest result. That was one of the first things that should of gone, that one judge. So in the end it was just a PR scam. Then the self-imosed closing date tops it off.
Same old, same old. It's obviously the way it is in aruba. So nothing changed. joran and the kalpoes get to go on with their lives. Well done.<snipped for hateful content>
IMO


The judge is not from Aruba, how many times do we need to say that? He was brought it to ensure impartiality. What other judges have stated that there was enough evidence to keep any of them in custody and why hasn't the prosecutor charged anybody with a crime? Oh that would be because there is no evidence of a crime having been committed.

Link to "other judges" that have stated that there is enough evidence to keep any of them in detainment. please.

[Grandad]

The judge is not from Aruba, how many times do we need to say that? He was brought it to ensure impartiality. What other judges have stated that there was enough evidence to keep any of them in custody and why hasn't the prosecutor charged anybody with a crime? Oh that would be because there is no evidence of a crime having been committed.

Link to "other judges" that have stated that there is enough evidence to keep any of them in detainment. please.

Add to this the fact the prosecutor has appealed judicial decisions several times, and the three man appeals panel has upheld all judicial rulings.

It's just bogus to blame one judge.

Oh, that's right, all of Aruba, Curacao and the Netherlands is corrupt.

I wonder if Bonaire is corrupt also.

[Chocoholic]

Add to this the fact the prosecutor has appealed judicial decisions several times, and the three man appeals panel has upheld all judicial rulings.

It's just bogus to blame one judge.

Oh, that's right, all of Aruba, Curacao and the Netherlands is corrupt.

I wonder if Bonaire is corrupt also.

Corruption in the world and ranking.......

rank Country CPI Score 2007

1. Finland 9.4
Denmark 9.4
New Zealand 9.4
4. Sweden 9.3
Singapore 9.3
6. Iceland 9.2
7. Switzerland 9.0
Netherlands 9.0
9. Canada 8.7
Norway 8.7
11. Australia 8.6
12. Luxembourg 8.4
United Kingdom 8.4
14. Hong Kong 8.3
15. Austria 8.1
16. Germany 7.8
17. Japan 7.5
Ireland 7.5
19. France 7.3
20. USA 7.2

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781359.html

[terrysdoor]

Good morning all........ well now since J2k want be charged with anything at this point i wonder if maybe before Hos Mos closes the case at the end of the year he will requestion the other suspects IMO maybe he could find something missed from another angle IMO

[fairmaiden]

Add to this the fact the prosecutor has appealed judicial decisions several times, and the three man appeals panel has upheld all judicial rulings.

It's just bogus to blame one judge.

Oh, that's right, all of Aruba, Curacao and the Netherlands is corrupt.

I wonder if Bonaire is corrupt also.

I couldn't agree with you more, Grandad. To think, as you said, that Aruba, Curacao, and the Netherlands is in on this grand conspiracy IS bogus. I absolutely believe those who think this way are just not willing to accept that something else might have happened to Natalee, OTHER than Joran et al harming her.

Quite amazing ....

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Good morning all........ well now since J2k want be charged with anything at this point i wonder if maybe before Hos Mos closes the case at the end of the year he will requestion the other suspects IMO maybe he could find something missed from another angle IMO

Goodmorning Terry,

I don't think so. The judge has stated that there is no evidence of a violent crime against Natalee. He didn't say that there might be circumstantial evidence, he didn't say that there might be reasons to keep anybody for a longer period of time. He said there was no evidence of a violent crime against Natalee.

I'm sure that this flies in the face of those who would prefer to believe that chocolate is blood, that the DNA encrusted toothbrush never existed and that multiple gravesites were dug to hid Natalee's body, all in a period of 20 minutes.

The case is going to be closed, only if it were actually a murder case would it be kept open.

Having said that though, should at some time in the future evidence be presented that she did die of a violent crime (which appears to be what the family is hoping for - considering Paul's response to Star) then the case can be re-opened. But then that would be NEW evidence.

[ortiga]

Having said that though, should at some time in the future evidence be presented that she did die of a violent crime (which appears to be what the family is hoping for - considering Paul's response to Star) then the case can be re-opened. But then that would be NEW evidence.

Sure would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when the family was opining that they didn't want the boys charged with minor crimes, only major ones. At least that is what I get from Paul's statement combined with Hans Mos' statement.

I have always failed to understand BHT's apparent desire to believe or even wish that somehow, some way, Natalee would be shown to have been violently violated by many. Of course no improper sexual contact between Natalee and Joran or any other of the boys was ever proven to have occurred.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

Sure would have liked to have been a fly on the wall when the family was opining that they didn't want the boys charged with minor crimes, only major ones. At least that is what I get from Paul's statement combined with Hans Mos' statement.

I have always failed to understand BHT's apparent desire to believe or even wish that somehow, some way, Natalee would be shown to have been violently violated by many. Of course no improper sexual contact between Natalee and Joran or any other of the boys was ever proven to have occurred.

IMO

I would much prefer to believe that my daughter had run away because she was PO'd with me and that some time in the future we could make amends, than wishing to believe she had been gangraped, kidnapped and murdered, especially because there is no evidence of a crime!

Teens are teens and IMO are braindamaged until age 25 or so.

Either way, I would never under any circumstances discuss with anybody my daughter's person grooming habits, underwear or discuss her sexual behavior in a rated for 18+ book. THAT to me is disgusting.

[terrysdoor]

has anybody heard from Beth or Dave about the prosecutors decision to close the case we saw so much of her in the beginning and a little when her book came and nothing about this is Dave on the ship? IMO just curious

[ortiga]

I would much prefer to believe that my daughter had run away because she was PO'd with me and that some time in the future we could make amends, than wishing to believe she had been gangraped, kidnapped and murdered, especially because there is no evidence of a crime!

Teens are teens and IMO are braindamaged until age 25 or so.

Either way, I would never under any circumstances discuss with anybody my daughter's person grooming habits, underwear or discuss her sexual behavior in a rated for 18+ book. THAT to me is disgusting.


Apparently the family was consulted before the recent arrests, and JQK said he had been in touch with the prosecution for some time. I don't understand why the family would be consulted like that.

But, I bet that BHT thought that her book sales would take off with news of a more re-arrests, but the book still hovers at about 7,500 in popularity at Amazon. Ie, over 7000 books are more sought after.

IMO

[ortiga]

has anybody heard from Beth or Dave about the prosecutors decision to close the case we saw so much of her in the beginning and a little when her book came and nothing about this is Dave on the ship? IMO just curious


I read that he is not on the ship.

IMO it's not clear what the real purpose of the voyage is.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

Good morning all........ well now since J2k want be charged with anything at this point i wonder if maybe before Hos Mos closes the case at the end of the year he will requestion the other suspects IMO maybe he could find something missed from another angle IMOExcellent question!

:hat:

[Luke Davis]

has anybody heard from Beth or Dave about the prosecutors decision to close the case we saw so much of her in the beginning and a little when her book came and nothing about this is Dave on the ship? IMO just curiousIn one of the artilces I posted, John Q. Kelly said Beth and Dave would not talk about the recent developments. JQK went on to say they were crushed. A friend of Beth's made some comments. It does seem strange.

:hat: :hat:

[terrysdoor]

Excellent question!

:hat:

Thanks Luke i just think that since they can`t get anything on J2K after going to jail many times and still they obviously don`t have anything on them maybe they should revisit other interviews maybe something was missed with all the focus on J2K IMO

[ortiga]

Thanks Luke i just think that since they can`t get anything on J2K after going to jail many times and still they obviously don`t have anything on them maybe they should revisit other interviews maybe something was missed with all the focus on J2K IMO

Didn't the blue eyed dutch boy refuse to answer any questions at all?

[Grandad]

I would much prefer to believe that my daughter had run away because she was PO'd with me and that some time in the future we could make amends, than wishing to believe she had been gangraped, kidnapped and murdered, especially because there is no evidence of a crime!

<snip>


But who would contribute money to look for an adult who chose to start a new life?

What gets me are the posters who say they don't care what Beth used the money for. It's difficult for me to believe these are people who don't have an agenda.

[Grandad]

Thanks Luke i just think that since they can`t get anything on J2K after going to jail many times and still they obviously don`t have anything on them maybe they should revisit other interviews maybe something was missed with all the focus on J2K IMO

Maybe they should seriously consider she just ran off.

[Grandad]

Apparently the family was consulted before the recent arrests, and JQK said he had been in touch with the prosecution for some time.

<snip>

JQK also said he knew what the "new evidence" was, and that it was forensic evidence.

I think it's time to put JQK in the same category as Art Wood, T. J. Ward and Skeeters. People who have no integrity or credibility. People out to make a fast buck, at any cost.

[Heyes]

This is clearly a threat, why is it allowed here?

yup there were threats out there, I wouldn't risk my life for the punk but it sure seems like there are tons of angry people venting.
Looks to me by reading the many, many comments posted many places, that joran is not welcome here.
ortiga your drama is entertaining but my comment wasn't a threat. lol good try though.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

yup there were threats out there, I wouldn't risk my life for the punk but it sure seems like there are tons of angry people venting.
Looks to me by reading the many, many comments posted many places, that joran is not welcome here.
ortiga your drama is entertaining but my comment wasn't a threat. lol good try though.

IMO

You certainly didn't specify where the threats were coming from and as far as I concerned it did appear they came from you.

imo

[Heyes]

You certainly didn't specify where the threats were coming from and as far as I concerned it did appear they came from you.

imo


Nonsense!

Your boy is free, be happy!

:patriot:

[Chocoholic]

Nonsense!

Your boy is free, be happy!

:patriot:


There is absolutely no need to make this personal. I gave my point of view and I believe I'm fully qualified to give it.

Joran nor the Kalpoes are my boys. Yes they are free. Such is what happens in a democratic society which is freer of corruption than apparently the US. Planting evidence isn't legal and when there is no evidence of a crime persons can't be prosecuted or persecuted.

[Heyes]

There is absolutely no need to make this personal. I gave my point of view and I believe I'm fully qualified to give it.

Joran nor the Kalpoes are my boys. Yes they are free. Such is what happens in a democratic society which is freer of corruption than apparently the US. Planting evidence isn't legal and when there is no evidence of a crime persons can't be prosecuted or persecuted.

Except.......there's no evidence, because your "professional" law enforcement managed to arrest the wrong people. They in all their bungling didn't even search the houses or cars of the last known people (LIARS), that were with Natalee until 10 days after her disappearance, and even that was a half-*****ed search. That search was severly limited by one of your, beyond reproach judges, That just happened to be hanging out at the vandersloots the day of the search! Duh!
So of course your beyond reproach system couldn't manage to prosecute the knucklheads, let alone even make it to trial. :rolleyes:
What a legacy aruba! BRILLIANT!
IMO

BOYCOTT ARUBA!!!

[Chocoholic]

Except.......there's no evidence, because your "professional" law enforcement managed to arrest the wrong people. They in all their bungling didn't even search the houses or cars of the last known people (LIARS), that were with Natalee until 10 days after her disappearance, and even that was a half-*****ed search. That search was severly limited by one of your, beyond reproach judges, That just happened to be hanging out at the vandersloots the day of the search! Duh!
So of course your beyond reproach system couldn't manage to prosecute the knucklheads, let alone even make it to trial. :rolleyes:
What a legacy aruba! BRILLIANT!
IMO

BOYCOTT ARUBA!!!


Would you care to prove that it is "my" professional law enforcement agency?

Seems that the program wiped out your foul language, what was it you were attempting to say?

Since you weren't at any of the events you know absolutely nothing about it, all you get is information from the grand sites of red's monkey's and bfn, and most of the Americans reading here have been nothing but Greta and NG biased garbage who took it from beth without so much as a "are you sure".

Since you haven't the vaguest clue where I live I would appreciate you leaving "my" system alone.

It's not my fault that your system appears to be internatinoally recognized as more corrupt than the Netherlands, don't take it personally.

[Heyes]

Awww it seems joran is staying in aruba and yapping again. He was walking to the store with his bro's and was approached.
LOL
This guys is too much. He obviously was looking for attention. His family and attorney's must be worried now. Here's a snippet... it was in Amigoe 12/8/07.
ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, (he couldn't wait, still not listening to his parents or lawyers. imo) while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

Made what? Walking to the store? Locked up for at the very least manslaughter?
He goes on to yap about his studies and how he was interrogated heavily. yet he "was silent till the end". Oh good for you joran you were silent till the end. Wouldn't want you to go over your story one more time. All you had to do was pick one of your several versions and repeat, but no, you stayed silent. silent about a missing girl, silent. Sick.
IMO

[Chocoholic]

Awww it seems joran is staying in aruba and yapping again. He was walking to the store with his bro's and was approached.
LOL
This guys is too much. He obviously was looking for attention. His family and attorney's must be worried now. Here's a snippet... it was in Amigoe 12/8/07.
ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, (he couldn't wait, still not listening to his parents or lawyers. imo) while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

Made what? Walking to the store? Locked up for at the very least manslaughter?
He goes on to yap about his studies and how he was interrogated heavily. yet he "was silent till the end". Oh good for you joran you were silent till the end. Wouldn't want you to go over your story one more time. All you had to do was pick one of your several versions and repeat, but no, you stayed silent. silent about a missing girl, silent. Sick.
IMO

How dare he talk to his brother

He wouldn't make it in the US for the likes of those who support vigilante justice and have come out rather publicly that he and his father should be eliminated, Nazi style... feel free to read ScaredMonkeys

[terrysdoor]

How dare he talk to his brother

He wouldn't make it in the US for the likes of those who support vigilante justice and have come out rather publicly that he and his father should be eliminated, Nazi style... feel free to read ScaredMonkeys

i thought the article i read stated it was his little brother not a bunch of "bros" IMO that is how rumors get started

[Chocoholic]

i thought the article i read stated it was his little brother not a bunch of "bros" IMO that is how rumors get started

Yup, and he has only two brothers, so that eliminates "a bunch of brothers".

[Grandad]

Awww it seems joran is staying in aruba and yapping again. He was walking to the store with his bro's and was approached.
LOL
This guys is too much. He obviously was looking for attention. His family and attorney's must be worried now. Here's a snippet... it was in Amigoe 12/8/07.
ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, (he couldn't wait, still not listening to his parents or lawyers. imo) while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

Made what? Walking to the store? Locked up for at the very least manslaughter?
He goes on to yap about his studies and how he was interrogated heavily. yet he "was silent till the end". Oh good for you joran you were silent till the end. Wouldn't want you to go over your story one more time. All you had to do was pick one of your several versions and repeat, but no, you stayed silent. silent about a missing girl, silent. Sick.
IMO


When you insert text into an article or a quote, it's proper to use brackets so that the reader knows the inserted material is not part of the original.

But, maybe you're using Beth's rules of grammar.

[ortiga]

Yup, and he has only two brothers, so that eliminates "a bunch of brothers".


Are you kidding me? Joran went into a supermarket with his little brother?

I'm surprised Twitty isn't on the tube snarling "he's doing it again, he's got to be stopped"

:rolleyes:

[Chocoholic]

Are you kidding me? Joran went into a supermarket with his little brother?

I'm surprised Twitty isn't on the tube snarling "he's doing it again, he's got to be stopped"

:rolleyes:

I didn't hear any complaints about Paul Reynolds and saying that he had to keep his yaptrap shut and he was on teevee.

[HiLife]

I didn't hear any complaints about Paul Reynolds and saying that he had to keep his yaptrap shut and he was on teevee.

Paul Reynolds is not a murder suspect. Big difference.

[HiLife]

i thought the article i read stated it was his little brother not a bunch of "bros" IMO that is how rumors get started

Hi terry - I'm curious, where did you read "bunch of bros?" :confused: TIA.

[HiLife]

Except.......there's no evidence, because your "professional" law enforcement managed to arrest the wrong people. They in all their bungling didn't even search the houses or cars of the last known people (LIARS), that were with Natalee until 10 days after her disappearance, and even that was a half-*****ed search. That search was severly limited by one of your, beyond reproach judges, That just happened to be hanging out at the vandersloots the day of the search! Duh!
So of course your beyond reproach system couldn't manage to prosecute the knucklheads, let alone even make it to trial. :rolleyes:
What a legacy aruba! BRILLIANT!
IMO

BOYCOTT ARUBA!!!

Didn't get to say Hi, last night! So glad the thread has been cleaned up. I was thinking the same as you - that posters would be happy Joran is free - instead, I see contention?

Well, thankfully, even Joran knew he was persona non grata here in the U.S. - no matter, there are plenty of other countries to ply his trade, IMO. Glad it will not be here!

Aruba has suffered much at the hands of the Van der Sloot family. To me, Hans Mos has put the final nail in the tourism coffin. To quote Dr. Phil - "WHAT was he thinking???"

jmo

[HiLife]

Awww it seems joran is staying in aruba and yapping again. He was walking to the store with his bro's and was approached.
LOL
This guys is too much. He obviously was looking for attention. His family and attorney's must be worried now. Here's a snippet... it was in Amigoe 12/8/07.
ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, (he couldn't wait, still not listening to his parents or lawyers. imo) while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

Made what? Walking to the store? Locked up for at the very least manslaughter?
He goes on to yap about his studies and how he was interrogated heavily. yet he "was silent till the end". Oh good for you joran you were silent till the end. Wouldn't want you to go over your story one more time. All you had to do was pick one of your several versions and repeat, but no, you stayed silent. silent about a missing girl, silent. Sick.
IMO

I love the part how the lawyers say Joran would not want to say one word to the media..........yet there is he is.........talking to the media. He can't help himself. It's what sociopaths do, IMO. The same thing happened on the ACA interview.

Yeah, god forbid Joran come clean and tell his story truthfully. So true what you say - Silent and Lying about a missing young woman. Inhumane.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Paul Reynolds is not a murder suspect. Big difference.

Neither are any of the persons of interest at this stage. :D The judge stated quite clearly that there is no evidence of any violent crime against Natalee Holloway, you ought to be overjoyed that the likelihood of her having been murdered is slim to none.

[Chocoholic]

I love the part how the lawyers say Joran would not want to say one word to the media..........yet there is he is.........talking to the media. He can't help himself. It's what sociopaths do, IMO. The same thing happened on the ACA interview.

Yeah, god forbid Joran come clean and tell his story truthfully. So true what you say - Silent and Lying about a missing young woman. Inhumane.

jmo

Do you have a publication to show that Joran spoke to the media? Please post link.

Sociopath? He wants Natalee found, unlike beth who considered her dead and buried on day 10, and Paul who even after it was made public that there is no evidence of a crime, still wants these guys thrown in jail. That imo is sociopathic, rather Mammana-like.

[Chocoholic]

Yeah, god forbid Joran come clean and tell his story truthfully. So true what you say - Silent and Lying about a missing young woman. Inhumane.

jmo

I love how you can chose not to incriminate oneself, but apparently you find the same thing inhumane in Aruba? The same type of law exists in both countries. Is it inhumane in your country also?

[HiLife]

Do you have a publication to show that Joran spoke to the media? Please post link.

<snipped>



Amigoe 12/8/07.

ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Amigoe 12/8/07.

ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

jmo

You seem to be missing out on the media part, no link either for that matter.

He was walking home from a supermarket, with his brother. I don't think that that constitutes him talking to the media, do you? Is that something that beth translated from Dutch?

[HiLife]

You seem to be missing out on the media part, no link either for that matter.

He was walking home from a supermarket, with his brother. I don't think that that constitutes him talking to the media, do you? Is that something that beth translated from Dutch?

Normally I wouldn't engage your baiting, but you do know there is such a thing as "print media?" You should go back and re-read the article:

"On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction...."

Nite, nite. :seeya:

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Normally I wouldn't engage your baiting, but you do know there is such a thing as "print media?" You should go back and re-read the article:

"On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction...."

Nite, nite. :seeya:

jmo

Doesn't say he spoke to the media does it, which is what you stated.

I love the part how the lawyers say Joran would not want to say one word to the media..........yet there is he is.........talking to the media. He can't help himself. It's what sociopaths do, IMO. The same thing happened on the ACA interview.
Your post #1707

[HiLife]

Doesn't say he spoke to the media does it, which is what you stated.
Your post #1707

Amigoe 12/8/07.

ORANJESTAD – Both lawyers had assured that after days of isolation, Joran van der Sloot would not want to say one word to the media. Especially his parents are concerned. On Friday afternoon, a few hours after his release, while walking back home from a supermarket in Noord with his younger brother, he was still willing to give a first reaction. People in the supermarket have already been whispering: “he’s back”, “What has he endured”, and “It’s such a nice family”. He doesn’t seem to be worried to walk over the street. “I think that I would not have made it in the United States.”

jmo

The highlighted blue, in quotation marks, is what Joran said. Meaning, he spoke to the media. The Amigoe Article is considered print media. So yes, Joran is talking when his lawyers said he would not talk. Typical.

Sorry, but I cannot be any clearer.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

The highlighted blue, in quotation marks, is what Joran said. Meaning, he spoke to the media. The Amigoe Article is considered print media. So yes, Joran is talking when his lawyers said he would not talk. Typical.

Sorry, but I cannot be any clearer.

jmo

Let me get this clear.

Joran tells his lawyer he would not talk to the media.

Joran's lawyer tells the media Joran won't talk to them.

That means that Joran talked to the media because Amigoe printed that Joran's lawyer told them that Joran won't talk to them.

What you highlighted in blue is not quoted as Joran having spoken to the media, he could have easily been overheard, such as might happen in a supermarket.

Now I understand perfectly why Natalee in your opinion was kidnapped, gangraped and murdered. You should have explained this 2.5 yrs ago.

Edited to add: Perhaps Amigoe adopted beth's editing, "quotation marks are not for accuracy but for clarity", or some such nonsense.

imo

[terrysdoor]

Hi terry - I'm curious, where did you read "bunch of bros?" :confused: TIA.

Good morning HI......forgive me when i read post # 1697 i took it to mean he was with a bunch of bros but i went back and and reread it it just said with his "bros" but the article says with his younger brother i am sorry if i misunderstood the meaning i apolgize IMO

[Grandad]

Good morning HI......forgive me when i read post # 1697 i took it to mean he was with a bunch of bros but i went back and and reread it it just said with his "bros" but the article says with his younger brother i am sorry if i misunderstood the meaning i apolgize IMO

You understood the meaning. Everyone understood the post was meant to be a shot at Joran. Nothing new there.

[Chocoholic]

You understood the meaning. Everyone understood the post was meant to be a shot at Joran. Nothing new there.

I find it much more telling that after all this time beth has been silent. Wonder who is telling her to do so?

[Grandad]

I find it much more telling that after all this time beth has been silent. Wonder who is telling her to do so?


You would ordinarily think it was her lawyer, but his recent actions have raised questions of how he passed the bar.

[terrysdoor]

I find it much more telling that after all this time beth has been silent. Wonder who is telling her to do so?

I find that odd also considering all the interviews in the beginning it seems to me IMO that she stopped a lot of it when she started seeing or dating John Ramsey all my opinion

[Grandad]

I find that odd also considering all the interviews in the beginning it seems to me IMO that she stopped a lot of it when she started seeing or dating John Ramsey all my opinion

There hasn't been much news about that relationship since her book came out, has there?

[terrysdoor]

There hasn't been much news about that relationship since her book came out, has there?

no IMO John did not want it discussed in public but some interviews Beth talked about it and in others she wanted her private life kept private :shrug:

[Grandad]

For those of you who might have missed it, here's JQK trying to backtrack, claiming since he was in touch with the Aruban prosecutor, he knew there was no new evidence.

Quite a different story from the one he spun on Greta's show.

He does go on to say the only evidence in the case is the circumstantial evidence of J2K being the last persons known to be with Natalee.

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/i_video/main500251.shtml?id=3597392n

I wonder if JoeT has the chutzpah to call him a buffoon.

[SukiJane]

Joe Tacopina never called Aruban LE Keystone Cops, that was Larry King.

Yes, Joe T said that the investigation was botched, but the reason in his view was because they only focused on J2K.

I know that twisting words is a favorite pastime so I just wanted to get this straight.





http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/21/acd.02.html

I watched the Greta show where Tacopina DID refer to Aruban LE as the Keystone Cops.

From the On the Record w/Greta Van Susteren August 3, 2006 transcript at BFN:

TACOPINA: You know, I wish I was involved in this investigation. I was a homicide prosecutor. I would love to say I could direct it, because when we went down there I found alot of leads that were not followed. I am less optimistic with each passing day, because I am not confident in this prosecution team. I am not confident that Karin Janssen...I just think they have handled this like, you know, a BUNCH OF KEYSTONE COPS, so I think it is less likely with each passing day. For the Holloway family's sake...I hope so. For my client's sake, I hope so, as well.

Oddly enough Heli's transcript from this show was not complete, and someone else posted the complete transcript at RU from BFN.

[SukiJane]

Star Jones Show 12/10 TJ Ward, Paul Reynolds TRANSCRIPT
Start Jones Show
Court TV
December 10, 2007

Transcribed from DVD Recording

(snipped)

Archer:

I did, I drove from Carlos & Charlie's up towards the lighthouse where Natalee wanted to see the sharks, we turned around in the very parking lot they turned around in, we went to the fishermen's huts, got out, I walked the beach and then we went to the hotel, we went to Natalee's room, all the points of interest we covered and I reviewed the file from top to bottom. There's no evidence that a crime was committed, nevermind that my client, Joran van der Sloot was involved in Natalee's disappearance.

(snipped)



It really is hard keeping up with all of Joran's lies, but I don't remember Joran telling Greta in his "The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" interview anything about going to the lighthouse. Odd that this would be a place of interest for Archer according to his client's story, in my opinion.

jmo

[SukiJane]

(snipped)
and to paraphrase yogi berra....it's ovah now that it's ovah!

"It ain't over till it's over"--Yogi Berra

"If you can't imitate him, don't copy him"--Yogi Berra

[fairmaiden]

"It ain't over till it's over"--Yogi Berra

"If you can't imitate him, don't copy him"--Yogi Berra

LOL .... I like that .... "If you can't imitate him, don't copy him" .... lol.

ortiga DID say she was "paraphrasing" Yogi Berra though, Suki.;)
From all appearances, this DOES appear to be over.

JMO

[Grandad]

"It ain't over till it's over"--Yogi Berra

"If you can't imitate him, don't copy him"--Yogi Berra

Don't understand the word "paraphrase"?

[Grandad]

LOL .... I like that .... "If you can't imitate him, don't copy him" .... lol.

ortiga DID say she was "paraphrasing" Yogi Berra though, Suki.;)
From all appearances, this DOES appear to be over.

JMO

Oops! Should have read your post before I responded to Suki's post.

[Chocoholic]

I watched the Greta show where Tacopina DID refer to Aruban LE as the Keystone Cops.

From the On the Record w/Greta Van Susteren August 3, 2006 transcript at BFN:

TACOPINA: You know, I wish I was involved in this investigation. I was a homicide prosecutor. I would love to say I could direct it, because when we went down there I found alot of leads that were not followed. I am less optimistic with each passing day, because I am not confident in this prosecution team. I am not confident that Karin Janssen...I just think they have handled this like, you know, a BUNCH OF KEYSTONE COPS, so I think it is less likely with each passing day. For the Holloway family's sake...I hope so. For my client's sake, I hope so, as well.

Oddly enough Heli's transcript from this show was not complete, and someone else posted the complete transcript at RU from BFN.

I haven't read a reliable transcript from BFN.

You would have noted though that the transcript from Heli was not from Greta's show but from Larry King.

Those two people are rather difficult to mix up wouldn't you think?

[SukiJane]

LOL .... I like that .... "If you can't imitate him, don't copy him" .... lol.

ortiga DID say she was "paraphrasing" Yogi Berra though, Suki.;)
From all appearances, this DOES appear to be over.

JMO

Well, I do understand paraphrasing, just thought there may have been some people lurking here that might want to know the actual quote, and not Ortiga's interpretation of it, and of course I came across the second quote and just HAD to post it too, just for giggles!!!....:)

Here are a few of his quotes that I thought were funny...

"The towels were so thick there I could hardly close my suitcase."--Yogi Berra

"I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat, and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?"--Yogi Berra

"You better cut the pizza in four pieces because I'm not hungry enough to eat six."--Yogi Berra

More here:

http://www.rinkworks.com/said/yogiberra.shtml

[fairmaiden]

Well, I do understand paraphrasing, just thought there may have been some people lurking here that might want to know the actual quote, and not Ortiga's interpretation of it, and of course I came across the second quote and just HAD to post it too, just for giggles!!!....:)

Here are a few of his quotes that I thought were funny...

"The towels were so thick there I could hardly close my suitcase."--Yogi Berra

"I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat, and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?"--Yogi Berra

"You better cut the pizza in four pieces because I'm not hungry enough to eat six."--Yogi Berra

More here:

http://www.rinkworks.com/said/yogiberra.shtml

LMAO at the 4 slices of pizza .... lol.

[SukiJane]

I haven't read a reliable transcript from BFN.

You would have noted though that the transcript from Heli was not from Greta's show but from Larry King.

Those two people are rather difficult to mix up wouldn't you think?


Joe T. said it on Greta's show, and many people heard it! Perhaps Larry King has said it too on his program.

[HiLife]

Joe Tacopina never called Aruban LE Keystone Cops, that was Larry King.

Yes, Joe T said that the investigation was botched, but the reason in his view was because they only focused on J2K.

I know that twisting words is a favorite pastime so I just wanted to get this straight.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/21/acd.02.html

I watched the Greta show where Tacopina DID refer to Aruban LE as the Keystone Cops.

From the On the Record w/Greta Van Susteren August 3, 2006 transcript at BFN:

TACOPINA: You know, I wish I was involved in this investigation. I was a homicide prosecutor. I would love to say I could direct it, because when we went down there I found alot of leads that were not followed. I am less optimistic with each passing day, because I am not confident in this prosecution team. I am not confident that Karin Janssen...I just think they have handled this like, you know, a BUNCH OF KEYSTONE COPS, so I think it is less likely with each passing day. For the Holloway family's sake...I hope so. For my client's sake, I hope so, as well.

Oddly enough Heli's transcript from this show was not complete, and someone else posted the complete transcript at RU from BFN.

I haven't read a reliable transcript from BFN.

You would have noted though that the transcript from Heli was not from Greta's show but from Larry King.

Those two people are rather difficult to mix up wouldn't you think?

Joe T. said it on Greta's show, and many people heard it! Perhaps Larry King has said it too on his program.


Chocoholic: That link you provided of Lary King is from NOVEMBER 21, 2007. That is not the "famous Keystone Kops" comment everyone remembers. On Novemeber 21, 2007 is when Larry King said it. Joe Tacopina FIRST said it on an interview with Greta.

Lately it seems that even when you are proven wrong, you persist.

Suki: :seeya: Nice to see ya!

Thanks for correcting the OP's erroneous assertion. Joe Tacopina is the one who FIRST used the term "Keystone Kops" when talking about Aruba's LE.

When the OP first posted the (mis)information that "Joe Tacopina never called Aruban LE Keystone Kops", I began to look for Joe T.'s interview with Greta, who anyone who has followed this case knows called ALE "Keystone Kops" - but I gave it up because I know that most people will consider the source. Oh, the irony of the OP chastising others for "twisting words," while putting out misinformation. But it is good to clear up a blatant piece of misinformation.

I watched that interview when it aired. So did many people at the time on Greta, August 3, 2006.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Joe T. said it on Greta's show, and many people heard it! Perhaps Larry King has said it too on his program.

Do you have a link for Greta's show for that episode? TIA

[HiLife]

LOL .... I like that .... "If you can't imitate him, don't copy him" .... lol.

ortiga DID say she was "paraphrasing" Yogi Berra though, Suki.;)
From all appearances, this DOES appear to be over.

JMO

Yeah, but "paraphrasing" does not involve twisting the meaning of the original quote, as was done by the OP of Yogi Berra's quote. So Ortiga's post was not a "paraphrase."

[HiLife]

"It ain't over till it's over"--Yogi Berra

"If you can't imitate him, don't copy him"--Yogi Berra

Priceless, Suki!

[Chocoholic]

Lately it seems that even when you are proven wrong, you persist.



I have not read a credible transcript at BFN

I know I've been proven wrong lately, especially when I said, that the prosecution was dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's" and that there was no evidence. When you and your friends were doing backflips and happy dances and tauted that nobody was here to celebrate that J2K were again taken into custody I stated the same thing, but I was wrong of course.

When I said that they would be released, I was wrong. When I stated that terms such as suspect and arrest meant different things in Dutch, I was wrong, even though TJ Ward agrees with what I have stated.

You're right, lately I've been completely wrong. I bet I will be wrong when I state that the case will be closed by December 31st. You win! Hooray Suki :beer:

[SukiJane]

Do you have a link for Greta's show for that episode? TIA

Nope, I sure don't, so if you didn't actually see the show, I guess you'll have to take my word on it, and I don't think I have a reputation around here for being dishonest.

[SukiJane]

(snipped)
You win! Hooray Suki :beer:

Awwww, thanks!

[Chocoholic]

Nope, I sure don't, so if you didn't actually see the show, I guess you'll have to take my word on it, and I don't think I have a reputation around here for being dishonest.

No comment.

[No Nic]

WOW, Suki, you done shut down Choco's fingers.....Good Job !!!

imo

[HiLife]

Nope, I sure don't, so if you didn't actually see the show, I guess you'll have to take my word on it, and I don't think I have a reputation around here for being dishonest.

Just got back on....

You have been nothing but honest here, Suki, in all the time I have known you. And look at it this way, even if you provide the link, it will be argued.

Links are no longer working....but rest assured....the quote you provided was accurate, as I personally heard Joe T. at the time on Greta. Most people who follow the case have heard it and Joe T. has never lived calling the "Aruban LE Keystone Kops" down. It isn't even worth being baited into arguing this point.

Again, thanks for finding the transcript and debunking.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Why didn't any of the suspects crack? The logical answer is none of them know what happened or couldn't convince anyone that they do know what happened.

This Hans Mos may be a moron but how do morons get to be where he got? He wanted Deepak and Satish separated and to have different lawyers. This, after two years of them being able to work on any number of stories.

It would be so easy for Deepak and Satish to have conspired together to finger Joran. But why didn't they?

I can come up with two answers. One, the brothers really don't know anything. Two, Joran really is powerful and the Kalpoe brothers would be murdered in short order. The first is most likely to me.

Of course, if one of the Kalpoe brothers murdered Natalee, then they might stick together.

All this leads me to be inclined to believe that Natalee wasn't murdered by Joran, Deepak or Satish.

[Grandad]

Why didn't any of the suspects crack? The logical answer is none of them know what happened or couldn't convince anyone that they do know what happened.

This Hans Mos may be a moron but how do morons get to be where he got? He wanted Deepak and Satish separated and to have different lawyers. This, after two years of them being able to work on any number of stories.

It would be so easy for Deepak and Satish to have conspired together to finger Joran. But why didn't they?

I can come up with two answers. One, the brothers really don't know anything. Two, Joran really is powerful and the Kalpoe brothers would be murdered in short order. The first is most likely to me.

Of course, if one of the Kalpoe brothers murdered Natalee, then they might stick together.

All this leads me to be inclined to believe that Natalee wasn't murdered by Joran, Deepak or Satish.

All it took to convince me J2K didn't do anything or know anything is the fact that Joran and Satish were only kids, and Deepak was an unsophisticated young adult.

I just don't believe any one of them was capable of standing up to the questioning they withstood, if they were guilty of anything.

I have no doubt ALE knows everything they know.

As to Mos, I think he's just a guy who was given a job to do, who did it the best way he knew how, and he'll probably be glad to move on to something else.

[HiLife]

Why didn't any of the suspects crack? The logical answer is none of them know what happened or couldn't convince anyone that they do know what happened.

I believe they were coached by Paulus and Anita fairly early on (statements by Anita are in both Joran's and Deepak's statements) to be careful what they say, not to use phones, computer, etc., and who knows what other advice Paulus gave in those poolside chats (strategy sessions, imo). It seems to have worked.

Seems on Aruba, you just keep your mouth shut, pass the required time, then you're home free. It matters not that you give 4 different versions about every aspect of the case, never telling the truth.

This Hans Mos may be a moron but how do morons get to be where he got? He wanted Deepak and Satish separated and to have different lawyers. This, after two years of them being able to work on any number of stories.

Oh, you wouldn't believe the morons at my husband's company who have made it to the top by utter BS. They know nothing, yet manage to glom onto others, steal other's work, lie and step on many others to reach the top - the kicker is, they are admired by those at the top who have no idea who these morons have crushed in order to succeed.

It would be so easy for Deepak and Satish to have conspired together to finger Joran. But why didn't they?

The fact they are not fingering Joran is perplexing to me, too. But I believe it can only be 2 reasons: either they don't know anything, or they are both involved. (Guess which one I pick? ;) )

I can come up with two answers. One, the brothers really don't know anything. Two, Joran really is powerful and the Kalpoe brothers would be murdered in short order. The first is most likely to me.

I believe it is because all 3 are somehow involved - oh, really, 4. I forgot to include Paulus.

Of course, if one of the Kalpoe brothers murdered Natalee, then they might stick together.

I believe they ALL are involved.

All this leads me to be inclined to believe that Natalee wasn't murdered by Joran, Deepak or Satish.

There are too many lies for them not to have done it, Luke. Nothing about their stories match, among other reasons.



This was fun, Luke. You have to give longer answers like this more often! :)

jmo

[HiLife]

All it took to convince me J2K didn't do anything or know anything is the fact that Joran and Satish were only kids, and Deepak was an unsophisticated young adult.

<snipped>



Yeah, because we all know no "kids" aged 17, 18 and 21 could ever commit murder!

Darn, if only all those "kids" sitting in jail knew this at their trials - they'd be home with mommy and daddy right now, like Joran and the Kalpoes, instead of doing life in prison unfairly!

<rolling Santa!>

jmo

[Grandad]

Yeah, because we all know no "kids" aged 17, 18 and 21 could ever commit murder!

<snip>

You're the one always accusing someone of twisting your words. What do you call this?

You snipped my post to change the context. That's a big no-no.

[HiLife]

All it took to convince me J2K didn't do anything or know anything is the fact that Joran and Satish were only kids, and Deepak was an unsophisticated young adult.
I just don't believe any one of them was capable of standing up to the questioning they withstood, if they were guilty of anything.

I have no doubt ALE knows everything they know.

As to Mos, I think he's just a guy who was given a job to do, who did it the best way he knew how, and he'll probably be glad to move on to something else.

You're the one always accusing someone of twisting your words. What do you call this?

Maybe you should re-read your post. These were J2K's ages. You said, "they were only kids." How is that twisting? Maybe it sounds worse when someone quotes it? :shrug:

jmo

eta - I see you edited your post. The "snipping" was for emphasis on that particular statment I disagreed with.

[HiLife]

Don't act stupid!

I didn't say they were incapable of murder, I said they were incapable of withstanding the interrogation they were subjected to.
wow. This was uncalled for. And that is not what I was replying to (thus my snipping for emphasis). I will no longer reply to this kind of post.

jmo