Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6)

[JustMyOpinion]

Poor Hans Mos, for a few brief shining moments he was a HERO. Didn't last long at all for him, did it?

Why do you think he was a hero in the first place, and why hasn't it lasted for him? I think Hans Mos is doing his job, not certain why you view this as something heroic? If a Prosecutor has evidence showing a crime has been committed, they attempt to bring those responsible to justice, IMO. It appears to me a cold case review and investigation has produced new evidence, and old evidence that may not have been analyzed correctly, and he's acting on this, JMO.

[JustMyOpinion]

I'm reading something about the judges statement saying something about the kalpoes and destroying evidence and hiding a corpse. I have no idea but the general thought is that they didn't have enough evidence to show vm and the suspicion of destroying the evidence and hiding the body do not warrant them being held until charges or trial or the whole thing is dismissed. I have no idea what is going on at this point. We need more info.

IMO

Appears to me the Prosecutor's theory of the case may be that Joran committed manslaughter, and suspects the 2Ks assisted in disposing of a body and/ or hiding of evidence, and suspicion of those crimes don't warrant pre-trial detention under Dutch/Aruban law, JMO.

[JustMyOpinion]

As a defense attorney greta would have to agree it would have to be based on the evidence and since this professional judge has deemed there isn't even enough to hold them over for more questioning, the evidence IMO must be lousy at best. .

It appears to me ( based on Greta's interview with Chris Lejuez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JM70cqUL5A ) that under Dutch/Aruban law, suspects cannot undergo pretrial detention on suspicion of crimes carrying a sentence of less than 4 years. JMO I think it's possible the Prosecutor will bring a summation to court before this case is officially closed, and may try to prove the 2Ks committed crimes relating to hiding evidence/disposal of a body, JMO.

[Chocoholic]

It appears to me ( based on Greta's interview with Carl Lejuez) that under Dutch/Aruban law, suspects cannot undergo pretrial detention on suspicion of crimes carrying a sentence of less than 4 years. JMO I think it's possible the Prosecutor will bring a summation to court before this case is officially closed, and may try to prove the 2Ks committed crimes relating to hiding evidence/disposal of a body, JMO.

But, but but that would mean that they would not also be suspected of gangrape, kidnap and murder. I have been told on this board that the suspicion of manslaughter was on top of the above three suspicions, not separate.

That doesn't make sense compared to your previous posts.

Manslaughter carries a sentence of no more than 4 years? Quite wrong. Voluntary manslaughter carries a maximum penalty of 15 yrs or monetary compensation in the fifth category.

http://www.om.nl/_vragen_homepage/2344/

[JustMyOpinion]

But, but but that would mean that they would not also be suspected of gangrape, kidnap and murder. I have been told on this board that the suspicion of manslaughter was on top of the above three suspicions, not separate.

That doesn't make sense compared to your previous posts.

Manslaughter carries a sentence of no more than 4 years? Quite wrong. Voluntary manslaughter carries a maximum penalty of 15 yrs or monetary compensation in the fifth category.

http://www.om.nl/_vragen_homepage/2344/

Unless and until a summation is brought to court, it is impossible to know what crimes the Prosecutor will actually try to prove, IMO.
The crimes of being an accomplice to hiding evidence/hiding a body might carry a sentence of less than 4 years ( according to Lejuez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JM70cqUL5A ).IMO.
Joran is still detained on suspicion of vm ( which can carry a sentence of 15 years to life, IMO.)

[Chocoholic]

Unless and until a summation is brought to court, it is impossible to know what crimes the Prosecutor will actually try to prove, IMO.
The crimes of being an accomplice to hiding evidence/hiding a body might carry a sentence of less than 4 years ( according to Lejuez http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JM70cqUL5A ).IMO.
Joran is still detained on suspicion of vm ( which can carry a sentence of 15 years to life, IMO.)

Please show a link to Dutch law that shows that voluntary manslaughter carries 15 to life.

All the persons of interest were held for suspicion of voluntary manslaughter, not hiding a body.

[JustMyOpinion]

Please show a link to Dutch law that shows that voluntary manslaughter carries 15 to life.

All the persons of interest were held for suspicion of voluntary manslaughter, not hiding a body.

I agree that suspects were detained on suspicion of vm. JMO.
They apparently don't have evidence supporting reasonable suspicion that the 2Ks committed alleged crime of vm, IMO.
It appears they may have some evidence supporting reasonable suspicion of 2K's involvement in hiding a body, IMO
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/aruba.holloway/index.html
SNIP:The judge reasoned Friday that "the new evidence, together with the existing evidence in this case, produce serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting, of covering up the traces of a crime committed or of the disposing of a corpse," prosecutors said.

But people accused of those crimes do not qualify for pretrial detention under Aruban law, Mos told reporters. He noted that on Monday, the same judge approved van der Sloot's continuing detention based on the same evidence.

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention. ( End excerpt)


Joran's detention has been prolonged on suspicion of alleged crime of vm, IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#The_Netherlands
SNIP:Voluntary manslaughter (doodslag) is punishable by a prison sentence of up to 15 years, or life imprisonment when committed during the commission of a crime or as an act of terrorism

[JustMyOpinion]

[/B]

LOL yeah I can see how in the eyes of a few this could be considered terrorism. Normal "vanilla flavored" manslaughter carries a maximum sentence of 15 yrs. The "up to life" bit was added because of terrorism, but your research showed that right?

Please show a credible link that Joran's detention was prolonged.

.


I don't think Joran committed terrorism. He may have committed vm during the commission of another crime, though, IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#The_Netherlands
SNIP:Voluntary manslaughter (doodslag) is punishable by a prison sentence of up to 15 years, or life imprisonment when committed during the commission of a crime or as an act of terrorism

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
SNIP:MOS: He was detained by an order of the judge on which he was arrested in the Netherlands. The judge first had to give this order and had to study the material first. Then he was arrested in the Netherlands for a period of eight days in custody. And this period of eight days now, just two hours ago was prolonged for another eight days, which will expire somewhere by the end of next week.
VAN SUSTEREN: And then do you have an opportunity to go for another eight days?

MOS: In the case of Joran, no. Then we will have to ask him -- the judge to prolong this period with another 60 days. And in the case of the brothers, we still have to go into this eight days (INAUDIBLE).

[Chocoholic]

I don't think Joran committed terrorism. He may have committed vm during the commission of another crime, though, IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#The_Netherlands
SNIP:Voluntary manslaughter (doodslag) is punishable by a prison sentence of up to 15 years, or life imprisonment when committed during the commission of a crime or as an act of terrorism


Well you hang on to your english translation, in the mean time you don't mind that I follow what is actually in the Dutch Criminal code, Article 287. do you? I love how "accurate" Wiki can be, you do know that Wikipedia articles can be edited by anybody right? hehehehe

The prolonged period wasn't due to more evidence, it was because Joran had been detained in the Netherlands.

[JustMyOpinion]

The prolonged period wasn't due to more evidence, it was because Joran had been detained in the Netherlands.


Since you post this as fact, please link to a published source stating this is why Joran's detention was prolonged, TIA.

[Chocoholic]

Since you post this as fact, please link to a published source stating this is why Joran's detention was prolonged, TIA.

Tell you what, since I know a little more about Dutch law than you, why don't you post a credible link that shows that Joran was detained longer because there is more evidence against him, or a judge has ruled that there is more evidence against him. I've already explained the technicalities involved. Besides, I thought Joe Tacopina explained it rather well.

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
Those aruban "officials" are just plain cruel. The new prosecutor? Evil to pull this, just evil.He better have something of substance to say. Who wants to bet we don't hear from him?
IMO!!!

What has the Prosecutor done today to make you know this?

JMO .... "Hero" was MY word .... it was MY interpretation as to how he was viewed on the board when Joran et al were AGAIN re-arrested.

"Evil" was not my word.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

JMO .... "Hero" was MY word .... it was MY interpretation as to how he was viewed on the board when Joran et al were AGAIN re-arrested.

"Evil" was not my word.

JMO

You're right FM. All the people doing "happy dances" a week or so ago, are IMO proof of that. Now all that they appear to be hanging on to is that Joran is still detained.

[Luke Davis]

Why do you think he was a hero in the first place, and why hasn't it lasted for him? I think Hans Mos is doing his job, not certain why you view this as something heroic? If a Prosecutor has evidence showing a crime has been committed, they attempt to bring those responsible to justice, IMO. It appears to me a cold case review and investigation has produced new evidence, and old evidence that may not have been analyzed correctly, and he's acting on this, JMO.

I bet the meeting with Natalee's parents will be different than it would have been a few days earlier.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

But, but but that would mean that they would not also be suspected of gangrape, kidnap and murder. I have been told on this board that the suspicion of manslaughter was on top of the above three suspicions, not separate.

That doesn't make sense compared to your previous posts.

Manslaughter carries a sentence of no more than 4 years? Quite wrong. Voluntary manslaughter carries a maximum penalty of 15 yrs or monetary compensation in the fifth category.

http://www.om.nl/_vragen_homepage/2344/

Almost sounds like a plea bargain...but that isn't allowed. :hat:

[JustMyOpinion]

I bet the meeting with Natalee's parents will be different than it would have been a few days earlier.

MOO

I disagree. I think the Prosecutor will advise them as to the current status of the case without revealing actual information about the actual evidence or what he intends to do next, JMO.

[Chocoholic]

I disagree. I think the Prosecutor will advise them as to the current status of the case without revealing actual information about the actual evidence or what he intends to do next, JMO.

Oh I think the meeting will be much less optimistic now than it would have been a few days ago.

No happy dance.

[Chocoholic]

Almost sounds like a plea bargain...but that isn't allowed. :hat:

It does doesn't it.

I say, bring on the evidence, let's go to trial. Best thing that could happen, but I don't think that a sane judge would allow this case to go to trial.

I've read on another board that the prosecutor intends to appeal the judge's decision for the release of the Kalpoes. I wonder if the prosecution has a new hat trick this time LOL.

[Luke Davis]

Oh I think the meeting will be much less optimistic now than it would have been a few days ago.

No happy dance.
I hear JQK is in Aruba, I think he will advise Beth not to make one of her "criminal" pleas again.

MOO

[Chocoholic]

I hear JQK is in Aruba, I think he will advise Beth not to make one of her "criminal" pleas again.

MOO

Darn him and his expert advise! :flamemad:

[JustMyOpinion]

Oh I think the meeting will be much less optimistic now than it would have been a few days ago.

No happy dance.

I think the victimized parties will appreciate the fact that Hans Mos is willing to meet with them and share what he can about the current status of the case, JMO. I fail to see any reason why grieving parents would do "a happy dance", since the Prosecutor recently confirmed he thinks he can prove Natalee is dead. JMO. I hope the RV Persistance is successful, and Natalee's earthly remains can be laid to rest in a respectful burial on the family's choice of sacred ground, JMO. I think the prolonged "not knowing" for certain, and continued inability to properly bury a beloved child has promoted anguish and suffering that there are no words to describe, IMO.

[Chocoholic]

I think the victimized parties will appreciate the fact that Hans Mos is willing to meet with them and share what he can about the current status of the case, JMO. I fail to see any reason why grieving parents would do "a happy dance", since the Prosecutor recently confirmed he thinks he can prove Natalee is dead. JMO. I hope the RV Persistance is successful, and Natalee's earthly remains can be laid to rest in a respectful burial on the family's choice of sacred ground, JMO. I think the prolonged "not knowing" for certain, and continued inability to properly bury a beloved child has promoted anguish and suffering that there are no words to describe, IMO.

I don't recall that the v.d Sloots or the Kalpoes or any of the other suspects' families were meeting with Mos. IMO they too are victimized parties.

Nah the prosecutor didn't say he could prove Natalee is dead, he said it is more likely as every day passes that she is less likely to be alive. Hardly constitutes proof.

I would hope that since there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever of a crime that Natalee's memory would be of a woman who lives happily in her own space. Trust me, no remains will be found on the bottom of the sea.

I think the "not knowing" has prolonged the investigation and torture for all parties involved, not just Natalee's parents. However, beth buried her "child" on day 10 of the investigation when she crawled on hands and knees through the cemetery and she knew that Natalee was with God. beth doesn't need any physical evidence to know her daughter is dead, or to convict anybody of a suspected crime for that matter.

[JustMyOpinion]

I don't recall that the v.d Sloots or the Kalpoes or any of the other suspects' families were meeting with Mos. IMO they too are victimized parties.

Nah the prosecutor didn't say he could prove Natalee is dead, he said it is more likely as every day passes that she is less likely to be alive. Hardly constitutes proof.

.


J2K are suspects in this case, and if their families have been victimized, it was a result of the actions of their own sons, IMO.
Here is what the Prosecutor said:
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/1124/natalee_holloway_cnn.html
"There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.

[Chocoholic]

J2K are suspects in this case, and if their families have been victimized, it was a result of the actions of their own sons, IMO.
Here is what the Prosecutor said:
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/1124/natalee_holloway_cnn.html
"There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.
WHOA Nellie hold your horses.

If that is the case (their families deserve to be victimized because of the actions of the persons so far arrested) then what goes for the goose goes for the gander. Or visa versa so to speak. IMO Natalee ran away and beth is no more a victim than Anita. Natalee was no more a saint than Joran or the Kalpoes or anybody else she encountered on her trip to Aruba.

And your point is?

Mos THINKS he has enough evidence? The judge disagrees. The only reason that he was able to drag this back into court is because he bases his case on the ASSUMPTION that Natalee is dead, because she hasn't surfaced, not because they have proof or evidence that she is dead.

Links are in Dutch, don't want to get my hiney banned. :D

[JustMyOpinion]

And your point is?

Mos THINKS he has enough evidence? The judge disagrees. The only reason that he was able to drag this back into court is because he bases his case on the ASSUMPTION that Natalee is dead, because she hasn't surfaced.



Link to the Judge stating what he agrees or disagrees with, or to the recent published rulings of the Judge, since you state this as fact. TIA.
Link to Mos stating he detained suspects based on his assumption she is dead because she hasn't surfaced, since you state this as fact, TIA.

[fairmaiden]

J2K are suspects in this case, and if their families have been victimized, it was a result of the actions of their own sons, IMO.
Here is what the Prosecutor said:
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/1124/natalee_holloway_cnn.html
"There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.

Then perhaps YOU can tell me, why no one has been charged ?? This reminds me of one huge game. I get the same impression as Choco .... I know cassidy posted about it the other day too. That being, the Prosecutor is using the fact that Natalee has not been seen, as his "evidence" she is no longer alive. I would venture a guess that many people might have disappeared, yet surfaced years later. That's hardly "evidence" of death ....

I believe his words were something like ((para)) .... "Every day that passes is evidence Natalee is no longer alive". Hardly evidence, in my opinion.

JMO

[No Nic]

Then perhaps YOU can tell me, why no one has been charged ?? This reminds me of one huge game. I get the same impression as Choco .... I know cassidy posted about it the other day too. That being, the Prosecutor is using the fact that Natalee has not been seen, as his "evidence" she is no longer alive. I would venture a guess that many people might have disappeared, yet surfaced years later. That's hardly "evidence" of death ....

I believe his words were something like ((para)) .... "Every day that passes is evidence Natalee is no longer alive". Hardly evidence, in my opinion.

JMO


Actually this is what he said:

There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead -- even if the Alabama teenager's remains are never found, Aruba's chief public prosecutor said Friday.

You don't need a body under our law to prove someone is dead. And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

IMO, it reads a bit different when you quote what he said in the context that he said it rather than one little snippet that changes the meaning.

[JustMyOpinion]

Then perhaps YOU can tell me, why no one has been charged ??
JMO


No, I can't tell you that. I am not the Prosecutor.
I don't know his strategy, or if he will choose to bring a summation to court, JMO

[Chocoholic]

Then perhaps YOU can tell me, why no one has been charged ?? This reminds me of one huge game. I get the same impression as Choco .... I know cassidy posted about it the other day too. That being, the Prosecutor is using the fact that Natalee has not been seen, as his "evidence" she is no longer alive. I would venture a guess that many people might have disappeared, yet surfaced years later. That's hardly "evidence" of death ....

I believe his words were something like ((para)) .... "Every day that passes is evidence Natalee is no longer alive". Hardly evidence, in my opinion.

JMO
Transcript from Greta's interview with Mos on the 26th of November has Mos stating:

I have given the word to the Judge and to the lawyers of the brothers if by the 31st of December, if things are not cleared, this case will be dismissed. They will be charged if it's a case that we can try in Court and I said the only exception I make on not making up to the date of the 31st of December because I needed a small way out is if there is very, very heavy and important evidence coming up which we now on the 31st of December, for example finding the body of Natalee Holloway which would be a very, very important piece of evidence or maybe any other source of evidence, for example a witness who just filmed the whole killing of the girl, if that witness is there, he would come up and say 'hey, here's my material, you can see who done it' well then that would change the thing but I also said when I asked for this little escape for myself, I have no indication that a think like that will happen.

I'm beginning to believe that Mos is just a tad delusional and wonder if he has been smoking too much nederwiet.

[fairmaiden]

Actually this is what he said:



http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

IMO, it reads a bit different when you quote what he said in the context that he said it rather than one little snippet that changes the meaning.

Thank you No Nic. I'm not sure what the difference is in the way I paraphrased it.

~~"There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead -- even if the Alabama teenager's remains are never found, Aruba's chief public prosecutor said Friday.

You don't need a body under our law to prove someone is dead. And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore." ~~

I would interpret that as him saying .... "because she hasn't surfaced, every day that passes by is just more evidence she is no longer alive". THAT statement is weak, at best. I'm sure you would agree, it doesn't PROVE Natalee is dead, just because days are passing by without her being seen.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

I think the victimized parties will appreciate the fact that Hans Mos is willing to meet with them and share what he can about the current status of the case, JMO. I fail to see any reason why grieving parents would do "a happy dance", since the Prosecutor recently confirmed he thinks he can prove Natalee is dead. JMO. I hope the RV Persistance is successful, and Natalee's earthly remains can be laid to rest in a respectful burial on the family's choice of sacred ground, JMO. I think the prolonged "not knowing" for certain, and continued inability to properly bury a beloved child has promoted anguish and suffering that there are no words to describe, IMO.

In her book, didn't Natalee's mother say, she knew Natalee was dead?

[No Nic]

Thank you No Nic. I'm not sure what the difference is in the way I paraphrased it.

~~"There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead -- even if the Alabama teenager's remains are never found, Aruba's chief public prosecutor said Friday.

You don't need a body under our law to prove someone is dead. And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore." ~~

I would interpret that as him saying .... "because she hasn't surfaced, every day that passes by is just more evidence she is no longer alive". THAT statement is weak, at best. I'm sure you would agree, it doesn't PROVE Natalee is dead, just because days are passing by without her being seen.

JMO


The statement that you are referencing, alone, I could agree with you, BUT I cannot discount this statement: There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead.

eta: Whether that proves to be true, remains to be seen, but I think this is a very serious statement for him to make, IF he does not have it.
imo

[Luke Davis]

J2K are suspects in this case, and if their families have been victimized, it was a result of the actions of their own sons, IMO.
Here is what the Prosecutor said:
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/1124/natalee_holloway_cnn.html
"There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.

Hans Mos sounds like many of the posters on the internet.

MOO

[fairmaiden]

The statement that you are referencing, alone, I could agree with you, BUT I cannot discount this statement: There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead.

eta: Whether that proves to be true, remains to be seen, but I think this is a very serious statement for him to make, IF he does not have it.
imo

No Nic .... When I read the statement he made .... even though it appears to be divided into 2 paragraphs .... I look at the second paragraph as a continuation of his stating there was "evidence". When I interpret it, it says to me that he is using the fact Natalee hasn't turned up, as evidence she is dead.

Like I said .... that's just my interpretation.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

No, I can't tell you that. I am not the Prosecutor.
I don't know his strategy, or if he will choose to bring a summation to court, JMO

Let me give you some more insight.

Police investigate (normally without media attention or a separate "family investigation" running parallel).

Police has evidence of a crime and take evidence to the OM.

OM runs to the judge and asks for persons of interest to be held for a specific period of time, starting with 6 hrs. That period of time, depending on what suspicions AND evidence OM MAY have this will be granted for longer periods of time. At no stage does anybody need to be formally arrested or charged. Person(s) of interested may be interrogated between 8 a.m. and 10 p.m.

If at any time there is some evidence that this person of interest should be charged it's a quick run to the judge to file charges.

Done deal.

116 days of intense interrogation later, including interrogators which specialized in examining youths, and outside the above described hours and the person of interested allegedly abused and still no confession?

Heck either Joran is innocent or the copshows on tv here show some people without any backbone to withstand even 12 hrs of questioning, most confess, AND it's on tape!

Can't tell me all the criminals (innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, even though the suspects are shown on video to have performed the crime) are sissies? Some of them have criminal records that are to say the least, impressive.

Just my observations.

[Chocoholic]

No Nic .... When I read the statement he made .... even though it appears to be divided into 2 paragraphs .... I look at the second paragraph as a continuation of his stating there was "evidence". When I interpret it, it says to me that he is using the fact Natalee hasn't turned up, as evidence she is dead.

Like I said .... that's just my interpretation.

JMO

Which is corroborated by the Dutch statements Mos made, that said that OM bases it's case on the ASSUMPTION that Natalee is dead, not that they have any evidence.

[Luke Davis]

I disagree. I think the Prosecutor will advise them as to the current status of the case without revealing actual information about the actual evidence or what he intends to do next, JMO.

A friend of the girl's mother, Beth Twitty, who traveled to Aruba with her this week said Twitty was upset by the decision.

"She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."




friend says (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071201/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aruba_missing_teen_11)

[fairmaiden]

<<snip>>
If at any time there is some evidence that this person of interest should be charged it's a quick run to the judge to file charges.

Done deal.


.

Now THIS is what I've been wondering all along ((or since last week)). IF there was enough evidence, charges could have been brought against Joran et al ??? Correct ??

I have to wonder WHY charges were not brought against them .

JMO

[No Nic]

Which is corroborated by the Dutch statements Mos made, that said that OM bases it's case on the ASSUMPTION that Natalee is dead, not that they have any evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

"There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead."

Mr. Mos appears very articulate and I believe he knows exactly what he is saying when he speaks English.

Regardless, we will know on the 7th, won't we.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Now THIS is what I've been wondering all along ((or since last week)). IF there was enough evidence, charges could have been brought against Joran et al ??? Correct ??

I have to wonder WHY charges were not brought against them .

JMO
You are again correct.

The prosecutor was hoping that while detaining and questioning all three persons of interest separately, they would reveal information which would incriminate the other(s). This hasn't happened.

Hence Mos' desperate:


Mos:

I have given the word to the Judge and to the lawyers of the brothers if by the 31st of December, if things are not cleared, this case will be dismissed. They will be charged if it's a case that we can try in Court and I said the only exception I make on not making up to the date of the 31st of December because I needed a small way out is if there is very, very heavy and important evidence coming up which we now on the 31st of December, for example finding the body of Natalee Holloway which would be a very, very important piece of evidence or maybe any other source of evidence, for example a witness who just filmed the whole killing of the girl, if that witness is there, he would come up and say 'hey, here's my material, you can see who done it' well then that would change the thing but I also said when I asked for this little escape for myself, I have no indication that a think like that will happen.


He's right, it won't happen.

[fairmaiden]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/

"There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead."

Mr. Mos appears very articulate and I believe he knows exactly what he is saying when he speaks English.

Regardless, we will know on the 7th, won't we.

imo

Oh, I'm not questioning whether or not he is articulate, No Nic. I'm questioning the statement he made. He is saying he has enough evidence to prove Natalee is dead, but he didn't charge them.

JMO

[No Nic]

Oh, I'm not questioning whether or not he is articulate, No Nic. I'm questioning the statement he made. He is saying he has enough evidence to prove Natalee is dead, but he didn't charge them.

JMO

YET, Fairmaiden, he hasn't charge them yet. Some are posting like this is all OVER, because JK2 were released. Even tho, they were released because there was not enough evidence against THEM to support VM. Mr. Mos has stated there is evidence to support lesser crimes, that do not warrent them to be pre trial detained.

Dec. 7th will give us more insight into whether or not this latest development will continue to trial. We are impatient, imo, but have no other alternative but to wait and see what transpires. It is not OVER, yet.

imo

[Luke Davis]

released (http://www.pr-inside.com/suspect-in-natalee-holloway-case-r327276.htm)

[Chocoholic]

released (http://www.pr-inside.com/suspect-in-natalee-holloway-case-r327276.htm)

Happy dance allowed?

[Luke Davis]

Blog rumor Beth is now meeting with Aruban officials.

MOO

[ortiga]

Blog rumor Beth is now meeting with Aruban officials.

MOO

Lotsa blog rumors, was the meeting involuntary or voluntary on Beth's part? Was she called in for questioning or did she request the meeting with the prosecutor?

[fairmaiden]

YET, Fairmaiden, he hasn't charge them yet. Some are posting like this is all OVER, because JK2 were released. Even tho, they were released because there was not enough evidence against THEM to support VM. Mr. Mos has stated there is evidence to support lesser crimes, that do not warrent them to be pre trial detained.

Dec. 7th will give us more insight into whether or not this latest development will continue to trial. We are impatient, imo, but have no other alternative but to wait and see what transpires. It is not OVER, yet.

imo

No Nic .... You are correct.

Again, just my opinion .... but there comes a time, after 2 1/2 years, when the Prosecutor begins to lose credibility ((at least for me)) unless he places charges. He says he has "incriminating evidence". I can't imagine what he's waiting for .... unless .... it was all just a ploy to re-interrogate before that deadline of December 31st.

I could definitely be wrong .... but I think this is "all over but the shouting".

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Blog rumor Beth is now meeting with Aruban officials.

MOO

Either way the 6 hr thingy is interesting. Have they left the island surrounded by water yet?

[Luke Davis]

Either way the 6 hr thingy is interesting. Have they left the island surrounded by water yet?
I thought Dave was going to wait for the ship.
:shrug:

[Chocoholic]

I could definitely be wrong .... but I think this is "all over but the shouting".

JMO

The fat lady is warming up her vocal cords.

[fairmaiden]

Lotsa blog rumors, was the meeting involuntary or voluntary on Beth's part? Was she called in for questioning or did she request the meeting with the prosecutor?

I saw that ortiga .... interesting !!

JMO

[Luke Davis]

Either way the 6 hr thingy is interesting. Have they left the island surrounded by water yet?Maybe they listened to Joran talking on tape for 6 hours.

[Chocoholic]

I thought Dave was going to wait for the ship.
:shrug:

Distance between Venezuela and Aruba is 15 miles, distance between UK and France (the English channel swim) is nearly 24 miles. For such an accomplished swimmer as Dave it should be easy for him to catch up. :shrug:

[JustMyOpinion]

You are again correct.

The prosecutor was hoping that while detaining and questioning all three persons of interest separately, they would reveal information which would incriminate the other(s). This hasn't happened.

.

Please provide a link to Mos stating what you allege, since you post this as fact. TIA.

[Chocoholic]

Maybe they listened to Joran talking on tape for 6 hours.

*yawn* that'd be boring imo.

[Chocoholic]

Please provide a link to Mos stating what you allege, since you post this as fact. TIA.

Link has already been posted on this board a few pages back.

[JustMyOpinion]

116 days of intense interrogation later, including interrogators which specialized in examining youths, and outside the above described hours and the person of interested allegedly abused and still no confession?

.

The Prosecutor says he has new evidence ( and old evidence he states was analyzed incorrectly) that was obtained via a cold case review/investigation, Joran has not been interrogated for 116 days since being re-arrested, he's only been in custody ( and back in Aruba) a short time. I don't know how many interrogations he has faced, how intense they were, for how many hours they lasted, or if he is choosing to answer any questions. I do not think he's been "abused", if this happened I have no doubt his lawyers would go to court right away. JMO.

[HiLife]

YET, Fairmaiden, he hasn't charge them yet. Some are posting like this is all OVER, because JK2 were released. Even tho, they were released because there was not enough evidence against THEM to support VM. Mr. Mos has stated there is evidence to support lesser crimes, that do not warrent them to be pre trial detained.

Dec. 7th will give us more insight into whether or not this latest development will continue to trial. We are impatient, imo, but have no other alternative but to wait and see what transpires. It is not OVER, yet.

imo

The above certainly sounds like it is not yet over. I cannot believe that Mr. Mos, who by his words, seems to have considered all the implications of what this re-arresting would do, would have had such a weak case. He doesn't sound like he made an impulsive decision.

People are so impatient. We shall see.

jmo

[HiLife]

The fat lady is warming up her vocal cords.

That reminds me. Wonder what Anita and Paulus have to say about this new round of re-arrests?

jmo

[No Nic]

Lotsa blog rumors, was the meeting involuntary or voluntary on Beth's part? Was she called in for questioning or did she request the meeting with the prosecutor?

There's been "lotsa blog rumors" throughout this case. Most, if not all, with the intent to put ALL blame on the mother of the young woman who had the misfortune of going missing in Aruba in a desperate attempt to take the focus from where it belongs. None have been proven true and this one will have the same conclusion as all the others.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Please provide a link to Mos stating what you allege, since you post this as fact. TIA.

Riviera gave her blessings to posting Dutch links.

The first paragraph shows that the suspects were detained separately so that they couldn't corroborate any information. It also shows that the Kalpoes had to have separate attorneys after 2.5 years so that the attorneys would have no conflict of interest.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2600231/Holloway-verdachten_mogen_elkaar_niet_zien.html

I am fully aware that the Dutch links I may post will be picked apart to the 'nth degree, and Babelfish is a poor translator at best. So, I'm willing to take the heat for any mis-translations (or transliterations) that will certainly occur.

[HiLife]

Blog rumor Beth is now meeting with Aruban officials.

MOO
Hey Luke, saw you getting a major beat-down, 9 ways till Sunday over your poll on CTV. Tough crowd over there, eh? :tongue:

[No Nic]

That reminds me. Wonder what Anita and Paulus have to say about this new round of re-arrests?

jmo


LOL, Anita had no comment, then Anita said she did not know how the release of JK2 will affect Joran. Anita may be too busy "wiping up" to do much more.

imo

[Chocoholic]

The Prosecutor says he has new evidence ( and old evidence he states was analyzed incorrectly) that was obtained via a cold case review/investigation, Joran has not been interrogated for 116 days since being re-arrested, he's only been in custody ( and back in Aruba) a short time. I don't know how many interrogations he has faced, how intense they were, for how many hours they lasted, or if he is choosing to answer any questions. I do not think he's been "abused", if this happened I have no doubt his lawyers would go to court right away. JMO.

A quick and simply "google" will show you that torture is still legal under Aruban law. What's a lawyer to do?

Seems you missed the message of my post. 's OK.

[Chocoholic]

That reminds me. Wonder what Anita and Paulus have to say about this new round of re-arrests?

jmo

No idea. Google is a great tool, perhaps you'll find what comments they may or may not have had. I haven't heard from beth either for that matter, other than that she was detained at the police office for a while for questioning. I know it's a rumor but she was there for quite a while. Six hours, it's said.

Rumors only... Word from Aruba.

[HiLife]

LOL, Anita had no comment, then Anita said she did not know how the release of JK2 will affect Joran. Anita may be too busy "wiping up" to do much more.

imo
This time sounds like there's good reason for sweating. They haven't been able to see Joran yet, right? I can see Paulus frantically trying to figure out who he can call or talk to, for help.

After the Mr. Jorj smackdown, I imagine he doesn't have too many people to turn to this time.

jmo

[No Nic]

No idea. Google is a great tool, perhaps you'll find what comments they may or may not have had. I haven't heard from beth either for that matter, other than that she was detained at the police office for a while for questioning. I know it's a rumor but she was there for quite a while. Six hours, it's said.

Rumors only... Word from Aruba.

Just to keep the record straight.....this "rumor" appears to be straight from RU and Julia Renfro...poor Julia, just can't get over being dissed by Beth. What a horrible, horrible person she has shown herself to be.

imo

[Luke Davis]

That reminds me. Wonder what Anita and Paulus have to say about this new round of re-arrests?

jmoAnita said she was happy the Kalpoes were released.

Link posted above.

Nice to know Anita is talking.:hat:

[HiLife]

Just to keep the record straight.....this "rumor" appears to be straight from RU and Julia Renfro...poor Julia, just can't get over being dissed by Beth. What a horrible, horrible person she has shown herself to be.

imo

Renfroe is like a vengeful, Energizer Bunny. She doesn't give up her vendetta against Beth. I love how she feeds these rumors and the board goes nuts (happy dance x1000) - and it always turns out to be false. Amazing how many people fall for her misinformation....and how many times!

jmo

[HiLife]

No idea. Google is a great tool, perhaps you'll find what comments they may or may not have had. I haven't heard from beth either for that matter, other than that she was detained at the police office for a while for questioning. I know it's a rumor but she was there for quite a while. Six hours, it's said.

Rumors only... Word from Aruba.

"thanks" for all your "google" advice, Dutch links without translating and other-board false rumors. So helpful. :rolleyes:

jmo

[Chocoholic]

This time sounds like there's good reason for sweating.

WOW I remember this being brought forth shortly after Paul dashed for his car because he refused to be badgered by the US media.

Imagine that! A balmy at least 77F day and night and one sweats. My body being used to much lower temperatures than southern US states certainly isn't used to this I too would sweat. As a matter of fact there used to be a picture of beth with beautiful underarm half moon shadows on her shirt. A sweat you say? Nay, it was uhm... sheesh I dunno, something else. I forget what it's called in Alabama, wasn't it "glow"? :shrug:

[Chocoholic]

"thanks" for all your "google" advice, Dutch links without translating and other-board false rumors. So helpful. :rolleyes:

jmo

Please take it up with Riviera.

[HiLife]

WOW I remember this being brought forth shortly after Paul dashed for his car because he refused to be badgered by the US media.

Imagine that! A balmy at least 77F day and night and one sweats. My body being used to much lower temperatures than southern US states certainly isn't used to this I too would sweat. As a matter of fact there used to be a picture of beth with beautiful underarm half moon shadows on her shirt. A sweat you say? Nay, it was uhm... sheesh I dunno, something else. I forget what it's called in Alabama, wasn't it "glow"? :shrug:

Does this mean Anita would sweat twice (or maybe Thrice) as much? Nice try, but Paulus lives on Aruba and is used to warm weather. 77F is not warm for those living in Tropical Climes.

Sounds like he and Joran suffer from the same disease......(SPWHS):

"Sweating Profusely While Hiding Something."

jmo

eta - or maybe even (SPUD): Sweating Profusely Under Deceit

[Chocoholic]

Renfroe is like a vengeful, Energizer Bunny. She doesn't give up her vendetta against Beth. I love how she feeds these rumors and the board goes nuts (happy dance x1000) - and it always turns out to be false. Amazing how many people fall for her misinformation....and how many times!

jmo

I haven't seen any links from Julia Renfrew. Can you supply some recent ones please? Which board have you seen go "nuts"? Pretty quiet here. I didn't even bring out my happy dance cause you'd know it, like we saw the happy dance from a few posters here a week or so ago.

All I've read are the few links on this board and Dutch links, and the transcriptions made by Heli on RU. I think all of us can agree that those transcriptions are mostly accurate or as accurate as possible.

[HiLife]

I haven't seen any links from Julia Renfrew. Can you supply some recent ones please? Which board have you seen go "nuts"? Pretty quiet here. I didn't even bring out my happy dance cause you'd know it, like we saw the happy dance from a few posters here a week or so ago.

All I've read are the few links on this board and Dutch links, and the transcriptions made by Heli on RU. I think all of us can agree that those transcriptions are mostly accurate or as accurate as possible.

Since you love to tell us to "google," you can easily do the same for all the above questions. :)

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Does this mean Anita would sweat twice (or maybe Thrice) as much? Nice try, but Paulus lives on Aruba and is used to warm weather. 77F is not warm for those living in Tropical Climes.

Sounds like he and Joran suffer from the same disease......(SPWHS):

"Sweating Profusely While Hiding Something."

jmo


LMAO so why would a southern dame like beth "glow" who is used to much higher temps and humidity?

Depending on the day or night I'm having I could be shivering from cold or sweating from heat all at the same outside temperature. Hiding has nothing to do with it. Maybe beth's hormones might.

[Chocoholic]

Since you love to tell us to "google," you can easily do the same for all the above questions. :)

jmo

I did, nothing came up that was of any importance to any board or supposed/alleged crime.

Must be a figment of the imagination.

[fairmaiden]

The above certainly sounds like it is not yet over. I cannot believe that Mr. Mos, who by his words, seems to have considered all the implications of what this re-arresting would do, would have had such a weak case. He doesn't sound like he made an impulsive decision.

People are so impatient. We shall see.

jmo

"Impatient"?? 2 1/2 years has passed since Natalee disappeared !! That's a relatively long time. There are about 8-9 suspects, who are still not relieved of their "suspect status". No one has been charged with anything.

I certainly question Mr. Mos' statement. I wonder if he IS basing his "evidence" of Natalee not being alive, on the fact she hasn't been seen ??

I believe the time for resolution in this case, one way or the other, is long passed.

Just My Opinion

[Chocoholic]

Sweating Profusely Under Deceit

Let me know when Anita's "glow" makes such an impact that all her "lies" and inconsistencies deserve a thread of it's own.

I'll be there with bells on. :D

[HiLife]

Let me know when Anita's "glow" makes such of an impact because of all her "lies" and inconsistencies that it deserves a thread of it's own.

I'll be there with bells on. :D

Beth didn't deserve one, yet you dedicated a thread to imagined "lies" of hers.

I don't find this a game and find making a dedicated thread about a mother's behavior unbecoming and unecessary - even the mother of a murder suspect. Different strokes for different folks.

jmo

[HiLife]

"Impatient"?? 2 1/2 years has passed since Natalee disappeared !! That's a relatively long time. There are about 8-9 suspects, who are still not relieved of their "suspect status". No one has been charged with anything.

I certainly question Mr. Mos' statement. I wonder if he IS basing his "evidence" of Natalee not being alive, on the fact she hasn't been seen ??

I believe the time for resolution in this case, one way or the other, is long passed.

Just My Opinion

I'm talking about impatience about what will happen in the next couple of weeks. If I am the victim's mother, I would hope the prosecutor had all his ducks in a row regarding a case against any suspects in my child's murder - I wouldn't care how long it took.

I can only hope Mr. Mos does have proof to back up all his recent words and actions. He owes it to the Holloway family and to Natalee in bringing justice to whoever harmed her.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Beth didn't deserve one, yet you dedicated a thread to imagined "lies" of hers.

I don't find this a game and find making a dedicated thread about a mother's behavior unbecoming and unecessary - even the mother of a murder suspect. Different strokes for different folks.

jmo

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If Anita has been proven to have told so many inconsistencies, I would welcome a thread about it.

I find it disturbing that the mother of a woman who disappeared had so many inconsistencies to tell. Still no explanation for the US Embassy in Washington which not only she but also Matt contacted, according to her book.

If supposedly sweat is tied to lying, then let's start talking about it. No it isn't a game, but you brought on the "sweat".

[No Nic]

Beth didn't deserve one, yet you dedicated a thread to imagined "lies" of hers.

I don't find this a game and find making a dedicated thread about a mother's behavior unbecoming and unecessary - even the mother of a murder suspect. Different strokes for different folks.

jmo

LOL, and it is a real popular thread, started by chocoholic, total of 7 posts, 4 from chocoholic, one from Luke and 2 from Ortiga. I call that another failed attempt to bash Beth.

imo

[Chocoholic]

I'm talking about impatience about what will happen in the next couple of weeks. If I am the victim's mother, I would hope the prosecutor had all his ducks in a row regarding a case against any suspects in my child's murder - I wouldn't care how long it took.

I can only hope Mr. Mos does have proof to back up all his recent words and actions. He owes it to the Holloway family and to Natalee in bringing justice to whoever harmed her.

jmo

I am a victim's mother. I may never find out what happened. Likely never will.

The prosecutor doesn't owe anybody anything, he's doing his job. Unlike many people on the boards, attorneys either aren't or truly try not to get emotionally involved with their cases. He also has no evidence that anybody harmed her, only what he thinks about the case.

Links already provided earlier.

[Riviera]

I have no answer for you and Freshwater is overwhelmed right now although I will notify of the situation. I am not expert on foreign languages although I do know translations can be tricky. Here are a few questions and answers along with the House Rules.
Any additional questions, please pm me.


"What are the rules for original transcripts and articles from Dutch press releases please?"

Provide the links.

"Must they (Transcripts) too be translated first before they are posted?"

Yes.


All Posts are Subject to Review

Crime Library reserves the right to remove any postings (although it has no duty to do so), for example, notes that are off the subject or not in English.

You Are Responsible For What You Post
You are entirely responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your sessions. It is required that when making a factual statement you provide a source for that information otherwise you must use IMO IMHO etc.. to advise others that the post is your opinion only. Exceptions are made for common knowledge like definitions, etc...

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=280560

Thank you
Riviera

[HiLife]

LOL, and it is a real popular thread, started by chocoholic, total of 7 posts, 4 from chocoholic, one from Luke and 2 from Ortiga. I call that another failed attempt to bash Beth.

imo

Victim bashing is a low form of sport. From the lack of replies on that thread, it appears many agree.

jmo

[fairmaiden]

I'm talking about impatience about what will happen in the next couple of weeks. If I am the victim's mother, I would hope the prosecutor had all his ducks in a row regarding a case against any suspects in my child's murder - I wouldn't care how long it took.

I can only hope Mr. Mos does have proof to back up all his recent words and actions. He owes it to the Holloway family and to Natalee in bringing justice to whoever harmed her.

jmo

I agree with you HiLife !! IF Natalee was harmed .... IF she was killed, she deserves justice. You have no problem saying Natalee was murdered. I'm not sure about that at all. I said a few posts back, I believe they are fast losing their credibility if they DON'T charge someone with a crime.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Victim bashing is a low form of sport. From the lack of replies on that thread, it appears many agree.

jmo

Which post on that thread do you disagree with, let's take it over to that thread shall we?

[HiLife]

I am a victim's mother. I may never find out what happened. Likely never will.

The prosecutor doesn't owe anybody anything, he's doing his job. Unlike many people on the boards, attorneys either aren't or truly try not to get emotionally involved with their cases. He also has no evidence that anybody harmed her, only what he thinks about the case.

Links already provided earlier.

I'm deeply sorry to hear about your situation (and more than a little confused now...).

The Holloways did not ask for this new prosecutor to re-arrest the men. Beth was moving on with her life. Nobody expected anything of Mr. Mos. If Mr. Mos decided to do this, then it behooved him to make sure it would not be undone this time. Why would he put the family through the horror again or raise false hopes?

jmo

[HiLife]

Which post on that thread do you disagree with, let's take it over to that thread shall we?
I politely decline. My nic will not be associated with that thread.

[Chocoholic]

The Holloways did not ask for this new prosecutor to re-arrest the men. Beth was moving on with her life. Nobody expected anything of Mr. Mos. If Mr. Mos decided to do this, then it behooved him to make sure it would not be undone this time. Why would he put the family through the horror again or raise false hopes?

jmo
Mr. Mos didn't make this move to ease the "family's" feelings or intend to put them through the horror again. ALE has a case it wishes to prove. Such is the job of a prosecutor. I'm sorry I'm not able to explain in any greater detail the intricacies of "supicion" "detention" "arrest" "voorarrest" etc. Some things just can't be translated.

In short Mos is, as I've said for oh about 2.5 yrs now, attempting to clear this disappearance up come he# or high water. If this means bringing forth suspicions for which the persons of interest will be held again, so be it.

People's feelings don't play any part in this. Think politics instead.

[Chocoholic]

I politely decline. My nic will not be associated with that thread.

So Paul's sweat and Anita's supposed lies are up on the chopping board but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it's a no go?

Thanks for the insight.

At least it has credible links, which Anita and Paul's supposed lies and sweat don't have LOL

[HiLife]

So Paul's sweat and Anita's supposed lies are up on the chopping board but when it comes down to the nitty gritty it's a no go?

Thanks for the insight.

At least it has credible links, which Anita and Paul's supposed lies and sweat don't have LOL
Oh, the links are there, but I'm not biting, as I am looking forward to an Argentinian Steak dinner, instead! :D

[HiLife]

Mr. Mos didn't make this move to ease the "family's" feelings or intend to put them through the horror again. ALE has a case it wishes to prove. Such is the job of a prosecutor. I'm sorry I'm not able to explain in any greater detail the intricacies of "supicion" "detention" "arrest" "voorarrest" etc. Some things just can't be translated.

In short Mos is, as I've said for oh about 2.5 yrs now, attempting to clear this disappearance up come he# or high water. If this means bringing forth suspicions for which the persons of interest will be held again, so be it.

People's feelings don't play any part in this. Think politics instead.

Let's think morally, too. So you think Mos did this whole re-arrest thing in order to further his political career? That would be heinous.

You seem to think the Dutch have some supersecret magical legal system and language that is incomprehensible unless explained/translated. There is no need to explain Dutch words.

As NoNic posted earlier, Mr. Mos seems to make the transition of the words from Dutch to English quite seamlessly and completely understandable for the benefit of the lay person who speaks English. He has no problem with ease of conversation, giving us the words that explain what he has done.

jmo

[ortiga]

"I've declared my show a Tacopina free zone and he's never welcome on my program again until I hear, of course he's never been on my show, he refuses to come on because he's a coward, until I hear an apology from him to you in public"

Dana Pretzer to Jossy....

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

[HiLife]

"I've declared my show a Tacopina free zone and he's never welcome on my program again until I hear, of course he's never been on my show, he refuses to come on because he's a coward, until I hear an apology from him to you in public"

Dana Pretzer to Jossy....

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

Darn, I can't open the radio part of it. But if that's what Dana Pretzer said...then :D

[HiLife]

BBL, all! :seeya:

[ortiga]

Blog rumor Beth is now meeting with Aruban officials.

MOO

Lotsa blog rumors, was the meeting involuntary or voluntary on Beth's part? Was she called in for questioning or did she request the meeting with the prosecutor?

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

Art Wood:
In the next few days some more information will come out and it's
outrageous. The Aruban Police want to question Dave and Beth
as to rumours that Natalee ran away from home, that she withdrew
money from her checking account after she disappeared

[ortiga]

More from the Dana Pretzer show broadcast on public airways on 30 Nov 07

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

This threat was stated at approx. 1:01:16 into the recording which is available on this show:

The Dana Pretzer Show - Friday, November 30, 2007 - Guests Include Jossy Mansur, Mike McIntyre, Stephanie Good, Art Wood and Red from Scared Monkeys


"Red:

" ... All I can say to Aruba, and you better damn well listen, very few times Mr. Prosecutor and all of the government officials, do you get a
second chance to make a first impression and you guys have an
opportunity right now to do that and that's afforded to very few people.

You screw up this time folks and trust me, you thought it was bad what
everyone has done to you before, wait until you get a hold of what we're
going to do to you if you screw this family around like it seems like you're
doing."

[ortiga]

Darn, I can't open the radio part of it. But if that's what Dana Pretzer said...then :D


Yes it's a Tacopina free zone. Dana says that Joe is never welcome on his show AGAIN, of course he's never consented to be on it before although Dana has tried to get him on the show.

[fairmaiden]

"I've declared my show a Tacopina free zone and he's never welcome on my program again until I hear, of course he's never been on my show, he refuses to come on because he's a coward, until I hear an apology from him to you in public"

Dana Pretzer to Jossy....

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

LMAO .... Now that's funny !!! Am I reading this correctly .... JT is never welcome on his program again .... but he's never been on his program ??? !!! lolol

JMO

[fairmaiden]

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

Art Wood:
In the next few days some more information will come out and it's
outrageous. The Aruban Police want to question Dave and Beth
as to rumours that Natalee ran away from home, that she withdrew
money from her checking account after she disappeared

Now, I'm a little confused. Art Wood thinks questioning Dave and Beth about rumors Natalee ran away from home, and that she withdrew money, is outrageous !!??. Where did the rumors originate, I wonder ?? What is outrageous about it ?? I would think that would be a NORMAL line of questioning.

It certainly isn't unusual in missing person cases, that the family is questioned. What's different about Beth and Dave ??

JMO

[Chocoholic]

Let's think morally, too. So you think Mos did this whole re-arrest thing in order to further his political career? That would be heinous. No that is your assumption, not what I said.

You seem to think the Dutch have some supersecret magical legal system and language that is incomprehensible unless explained/translated. There is no need to explain Dutch words. For 2.5 yrs I have seen few people who have wished and tried hard to understand the Dutch legal system and those who don't. I have no doubts as to where you fit.

As NoNic posted earlier, Mr. Mos seems to make the transition of the words from Dutch to English quite seamlessly and completely understandable for the benefit of the lay person who speaks English. He has no problem with ease of conversation, giving us the words that explain what he has done.I'm sorry I have no idea what NN's posts say unless they're quoted. I do know that some words are not translatable. I'm sure that as a multilingual person you would understand.

jmo

My comments in blue.

One thing is for certain. Paul's or anybody else's sweat has nothing to do with this case, no matter how you attempt to twist and turn.

[No Nic]

Now, I'm a little confused. Art Wood thinks questioning Dave and Beth about rumors Natalee ran away from home, and that she withdrew money, is outrageous !!??. Where did the rumors originate, I wonder ?? What is outrageous about it ?? I would think that would be a NORMAL line of questioning.

It certainly isn't unusual in missing person cases, that the family is questioned. What's different about Beth and Dave ??

JMO

Go to any of the Holloway hate sites and you will see where the "rumors" originate. How, pray tell, would these "rumor" mongers know that Natalee withdrew money from her bank account? Personal, private and privileged information....not available to even the best "internet detective". Good Lord, that is what is "outrageous".

[ortiga]

LMAO .... Now that's funny !!! Am I reading this correctly .... JT is never welcome on his program again .... but he's never been on his program ??? !!! lolol

JMO

Yes, FM, you are reading it correctly. He is ridiculous. IMO

[ortiga]

Now, I'm a little confused. Art Wood thinks questioning Dave and Beth about rumors Natalee ran away from home, and that she withdrew money, is outrageous !!??. Where did the rumors originate, I wonder ?? What is outrageous about it ?? I would think that would be a NORMAL line of questioning.

It certainly isn't unusual in missing person cases, that the family is questioned. What's different about Beth and Dave ??

JMO

Yes. What's unusual is that they escaped (evaded, IMO) the normal scrutiny afforded the family of an adult missing person. Let's hope they finally have to answer some questions. And that Jug does too.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

Now, I'm a little confused. Art Wood thinks questioning Dave and Beth about rumors Natalee ran away from home, and that she withdrew money, is outrageous !!??. Where did the rumors originate, I wonder ?? What is outrageous about it ?? I would think that would be a NORMAL line of questioning.

It certainly isn't unusual in missing person cases, that the family is questioned. What's different about Beth and Dave ??

JMO

lmao how DARE anybody question ANYbody in the "family". After all that wasn't done in the Jessica Lunsford case. Ohh oops they were. Oh oops and the 9 year old beautiful girl wasn't sent out on an all inclusive highschool overseas trip.

IIRC not only was Jessica's father considered to be a suspect for a period of time, but so were Jessica's grandparents.

I doubt that Jessica had her own ATM card to withdraw money and even if she did I doubt that her loving father would have even stopped thinking for a moment even giving that information to LE.

Yeah, let's never question the family because so often a person is raped and killed by a family member. That's the last place a person should start questioning right?

:rolleyes: and IMO

[ortiga]

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2007/11/30/the-dana-pretzer-show-listen-live-tonight-at-9pm-eastern-guests-include-jossy-mansur-mike-mcintyre-and-stephanie-good/

Art Wood:
In the next few days some more information will come out and it's
outrageous. The Aruban Police want to question Dave and Beth
as to rumours that Natalee ran away from home, that she withdrew
money from her checking account after she disappeared

"Meanwhile, Holloway's parents met with Mos for about an hour Saturday, and with interrogators for three hours. Neither spoke to reporters afterward."
-----------------
"Mos has told CNN he believes authorities have enough evidence to prove Holloway is dead, even if her body is never found. He has suggested her death was an accident."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/01/aruba.holloway/

[Chocoholic]

Yes. What's unusual is that they escaped (evaded, IMO) the normal scrutiny afforded the family of an adult missing person. Let's hope they finally have to answer some questions. And that Jug does too.

IMO

IF re-detaining the boys (now men) meant it lured "the family" out of it's hidey hole so they could be questioned, I would say it wasn't a bad move. Shrewd, I would say. I wonder, were they separated when they were questioned?

[Chocoholic]

Oh, the links are there, but I'm not biting, as I am looking forward to an Argentinian Steak dinner, instead! :D

No I never did think that there were any excuses for beth's inconsistencies, including the US Embassy in Washington, and if I were you, I wouldn't want to answer to any those inconsistencies either. LOL

[HiLife]

Go to any of the Holloway hate sites and you will see where the "rumors" originate. How, pray tell, would these "rumor" mongers know that Natalee withdrew money from her bank account? Personal, private and privileged information....not available to even the best "internet detective". Good Lord, that is what is "outrageous".

You wrote my thoughts exactly, NN! HOW could anyone know any information about Natalee's bank account? These rumors are so lame that it takes about a millisecond to logically refute it as BUNK.

:rolleyes:

[ortiga]

You wrote my thoughts exactly, NN! HOW could anyone know any information about Natalee's bank account? These rumors are so lame that it takes about a millisecond to logically refute it as BUNK.

:rolleyes:

When you were a teenager did you ever have an account co-signed with one of your parents? If so, both co-signers have access to the account records, and these days those account records can be accessed via internet. When I make an ATM withdrawal, the information is on my bank site within 1 hour.

It would be unusual for an underage person to have an account that was not a joint account with a parent.

[ortiga]

No I never did think that there were any excuses for beth's inconsistencies, including the US Embassy in Washington, and if I were you, I wouldn't want to answer to any those inconsistencies either. LOL


I would think that ALE would want to interrogate her for more than 3 hours if only about the inconsistencies in her book, compared to previously made public statements.

[Chocoholic]

You wrote my thoughts exactly, NN! HOW could anyone know any information about Natalee's bank account? These rumors are so lame that it takes about a millisecond to logically refute it as BUNK.

:rolleyes:

A parent can close a minor's bank account. I'm sure that Jar Twitty would be able to counsel Jug and beth about that.

In the mean time weren't you going out for dinner?

http://adsoftheworld.com/files/images/ChickFila01Lg.preview.jpg

One of my fav commercials.

[Chocoholic]

When you were a teenager did you ever have an account co-signed with one of your parents? If so, both co-signers have access to the account records, and these days those account records can be accessed via internet. When I make an ATM withdrawal, the information is on my bank site within 1 hour.

It would be unusual for an underage person to have an account that was not a joint account with a parent.

I would think that IF beth truly believed her daughter to be dead she would give full access to her daughter's financial situation. This would mean that the FBI would be able to ascertain whether any withdrawals had been made after the time that Joran stated he was with Natalee.

I think this information would be quite enlightening and I see no reason why a parent who wants to know the whereabouts of their offspring would not wish to cooperate,

[HiLife]

When you were a teenager did you ever have an account co-signed with one of your parents? If so, both co-signers have access to the account records, and these days those account records can be accessed via internet. When I make an ATM withdrawal, the information is on my bank site within 1 hour.

It would be unusual for an underage person to have an account that was not a joint account with a parent.

But, if this were true, how would ALE know? Why can't they be meeting with Beth and Dave to update them on all the latest and discuss their strategy? WHy does it always have to be something nefarious?

Do you think Beth or Dave would take 2.5 years to say money had been withdrawn from Natalee's account AFTER she'd disappeared?

Do you really think the Holloways would perpetuate the lie that Natalee was disappeared, while knowing she was alive???

Do you think they'd allow people to go to jail, Aruba to spend all that money and time with searches, fool networks, write books, speak to officials in the U.S. and even look Robert Schuller in the eye - and still withhold this information?

No, no, no and no! This is just like when Natalee's Pass Key had been used at 1:30 and 3:30am. In everyone's glee to prove Joran innocent, no one remembered the logical little detail that Joran himself had said he had been with Natalee those very times. I was one of the first people to point this out.

jmo

[HiLife]

A parent can close a minor's bank account. I'm sure that Jar Twitty would be able to counsel Jug and beth about that.

In the mean time weren't you going out for dinner?

http://adsoftheworld.com/files/images/ChickFila01Lg.preview.jpg

One of my fav commercials.

That was 3 hours ago. They know us and put our order in when we arrive, so it's pretty fast. I think that ad was brilliant (but I still prefer steak!)

[Chocoholic]

This is just like when Natalee's Pass Key had been used at 1:30 and 3:30am. In everyone's glee to prove Joran innocent, no one remembered the logical little detail that Joran himself had said he had been with Natalee those very times. I was one of the first people to point this out.

jmo

Then you left out a little detail. The two SGs were at the hotel the night that Natalee disappeared, that is established as a fact. J2K weren't also established as a fact. How could they possibly have pointed the finger at the SGs if they didn't even know that they were there?

Which naughty people fingered the SGs as having been at the hotel?

[Chocoholic]

That was 2 hours ago. They know us and put our order in when we arrive, so it's pretty fast. I think that ad was brilliant (but I still prefer steak!)

Time flies when I nap... *sigh*

Me too, I prefer mine tartar or blue, but that's WAY off topic.

[HiLife]

Then you left out a little detail. The two SGs were at the hotel the night that Natalee disappeared, that is established as a fact. J2K weren't also established as a fact. How could they possibly have pointed the finger at the SGs if they didn't even know that they were there?

Which naughty people fingered the SGs as having been at the hotel?

This is wrong. Only ONE of the SGs had been at the HI EARLIER in the afternoon/evening visiting someone. We will never know the details why ALE jumped on the two they arrested.

What are the astronomical odds of "coincidence" of J2K saying SGs had been the last to be seen with Natalee (when it wasn't even true) and then ALE "happening" to arrest 2 SGs on their own??

No coincidence!

jmo

[Luke Davis]

Trial

30. Suspects have right to trial within a reasonable period of time

31. Public hearing

32. No trial by jury, but by a professional judge

33. No plea-bargaining

34. No death penalty

35. No permission required by the prosecutor from the court to go to trial

36. Indictment presented, at the prerogative of the prosecutor, after investigations have taken place

37. Defense will have chance to cross-examine witnesses before an examining judge

38. Maximum sentences: (i) Life imprisonment; or (ii) limited time. Section 11 Criminal Code

39. Maximum sentence of limited time sentence is 20 years i.e. 15 plus 5

40. Life sentencing has been issued in the past by the Courts.

41. Death sentence abolished since late 1800’s and since then no serious attempts to re-instate same.

About (http://www.aruba.com/about/judicialsystem.php)

[fairmaiden]

Go to any of the Holloway hate sites and you will see where the "rumors" originate. How, pray tell, would these "rumor" mongers know that Natalee withdrew money from her bank account? Personal, private and privileged information....not available to even the best "internet detective". Good Lord, that is what is "outrageous".

I'm always amazed at the times you seem to refer to the "Holloway hate sites", NoNic. You talk about them a lot on this board. You seem to visit them quite a bit. I asked what is "outrageous" about Natalee's parents being questioned/interrogated, IF indeed they were ?? It's not unusual at all for the families of "missing persons" to be questioned. I asked, what is different about Dave and Beth ?? Why should they ESCAPE any questioning ??

So, you're telling me, someone on those sites originated this rumor about Natalee possibly withdrawing money from her account ?? It couldn't have been something possibly known by the FBI. I'm sure they could access Natalee's bank account information .... couldn't they ?? As a matter of fact, couldn't ALE access that information during their investigation ??

JMO

[Chocoholic]

This is wrong.


Would that be the reason that that SG is still considered a suspect? Either way, J2K were nowhere in the neighborhood and couldn't have fingered him.

[Chocoholic]

<respectfully snipped for length>
So, you're telling me, someone on those sites originated this rumor about Natalee possibly withdrawing money from her account ?? It couldn't have been something possibly known by the FBI. I'm sure they could access Natalee's bank account information .... couldn't they ?? As a matter of fact, couldn't ALE access that information during their investigation ??

JMO


Of course the FBI and ALE can look into whether somebody withdrew money from Natalee's account and when. The real question IMO is whether somebody closed access to her account and if this is the case, who was it??

[fairmaiden]

"Meanwhile, Holloway's parents met with Mos for about an hour Saturday, and with interrogators for three hours. Neither spoke to reporters afterward."
-----------------
"Mos has told CNN he believes authorities have enough evidence to prove Holloway is dead, even if her body is never found. He has suggested her death was an accident."


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/01/aruba.holloway/

I find it strange that "neither spoke to reporters afterward".

Neither of them has had a problem speaking with reporters before, that I know of.

I just got back from being out and admittedly having a couple of glasses of wine. Maybe, again, I'm reading this wrong. Mos has suggested her death was an accident ???? What was all the hullabaloo about voluntary manslaughter last week ??

JMO

[Chocoholic]

I find it strange that "neither spoke to reporters afterward".

Neither of them has had a problem speaking with reporters before, that I know of.

I just got back from being out and admittedly having a couple of glasses of wine. Maybe, again, I'm reading this wrong. Mos has suggested her death was an accident ???? What was all the hullabaloo about voluntary manslaughter last week ??

JMO

Close enough.

[No Nic]

I'm always amazed at the times you seem to refer to the "Holloway hate sites", NoNic. You talk about them a lot on this board. You seem to visit them quite a bit. I asked what is "outrageous" about Natalee's parents being questioned/interrogated, IF indeed they were ?? It's not unusual at all for the families of "missing persons" to be questioned. I asked, what is different about Dave and Beth ?? Why should they ESCAPE any questioning ??

So, you're telling me, someone on those sites originated this rumor about Natalee possibly withdrawing money from her account ?? It couldn't have been something possibly known by the FBI. I'm sure they could access Natalee's bank account information .... couldn't they ?? As a matter of fact, couldn't ALE access that information during their investigation ??

JMO

Yeah, I read one of those sites anytime a new "rumor" is brought up on this board, guess what? the new rumor is the hot topic there everytime, no credibility or verification, just something someone has slung out there, lol.

I suppose if the FBI or the ALE had a court order, they could get Natalee's bank info but I highly doubt they would give that information to a blog. And then, the question would be, why would this case still be active if Natalee had withdrawn funds from her account after her disappearance? The answer is not rocket science, imo.

[Chocoholic]

This is wrong.


This is wrong. Only ONE of the SGs had been at the HI EARLIER in the afternoon/evening visiting someone. We will never know the details why ALE jumped on the two they arrested.


Took me a while to find, I had to wipe my HDD a while ago and although I thought I had saved all my bookmarks, apparently I didn't.

So...

Janssen weigerde tevens aan te geven of er een connectie is met de twee security guards van een ander hotel, die sinds het weekend worden vastgehouden wegens verdenking bij de verdwijning van Holloway. Een rechter besliste woensdag dat er voldoende reden was om dit tweetal – Nick John (30) en Abraham Jones (30) van Grenadaanse en Jamaicaanse afkomst – vast te houden.

Janssen refused to admit whether there is a connection with the security guards of another hotel who are being held in connection to the disappearance of Holloway. The judge decided on Wednesday that there was enough reason to detain this twosome - Nick John (30) and Abraham Jones (30) of Grenadine and Jamacan origin.

http://www.korps-politie-suriname.com/nieuws/nieuwsbronnen%20nationaal/archief%20nieuwsbronnen%20nationaal/2005/2005-06-nieuwsbronnen/2005-06-nieuwsbronnen.htm

In the same short article:

De politie en FBI-agenten hebben eerder gemeld dat gebrek aan concrete indicaties de vorderingen bij de voortdurende speurtocht hinderen.

The Police and FBI agents have previously mentioned that lack of concrete indications (evidence) are hindering the search.

The same article also mentions that according to his attorney one of the SGs was taken into detention for suspicion of kidnapping resulting in death.

Tenminste één hunner is volgens zijn advocaat in staat van beschuldiging gesteld: ‘wederrechtelijke vrijheidsberoving met de dood tot gevolg’.
Same link as above.

[Luke Davis]

Yeah, I read one of those sites anytime a new "rumor" is brought up on this board, guess what? the new rumor is the hot topic there everytime, no credibility or verification, just something someone has slung out there, lol.

I suppose if the FBI or the ALE had a court order, they could get Natalee's bank info but I highly doubt they would give that information to a blog. And then, the question would be, why would this case still be active if Natalee had withdrawn funds from her account after her disappearance? The answer is not rocket science, imo.

If money was withdrawn from Natalee's account, I doubt it was Natalee.

MOO

[No Nic]

Let's see now, so far we have "rumors" that after Natalee was with JK2, she was:


on video in HI lobby
using her key card
swimming in the ocean
at a gas station buying phone cards
at a restaurant ordering grilled chicken
in a crack house
on the McWayne jet, being secretly taken off the island
on the med jet, again being secretly taken off the island
living in Arkansas, writing letters to PVS, awaiting the birth of her baby
on a boat to Venezuela
witnessed a drug deal on her way back to the HI & was killed
in a coma, hidden away in the US by her mother
naked on a raft
living happily on a llama ranch
on the Freewinds, spirited away by scientologists
withdrawing funds from her bank

I know there are more, but really, isn't that enough? There is one that I am still waiting to hear:

Natalee was seen dancing on the beach with Willard "Bud" Larson.

Oh, wait..........Bud is another tourist disappeared on the island of Aruba, no one wants to bring that back to anyone's attention.

imo

[fairmaiden]

Let's see now, so far we have "rumors" that after Natalee was with JK2, she was:


on video in HI lobby
using her key card
swimming in the ocean
at a gas station buying phone cards
at a restaurant ordering grilled chicken
in a crack house
on the McWayne jet, being secretly taken off the island
on the med jet, again being secretly taken off the island
living in Arkansas, writing letters to PVS, awaiting the birth of her baby
on a boat to Venezuela
witnessed a drug deal on her way back to the HI & was killed
in a coma, hidden away in the US by her mother
naked on a raft
living happily on a llama ranch
on the Freewinds, spirited away by scientologists
withdrawing funds from her bank

I know there are more, but really, isn't that enough? There is one that I am still waiting to hear:

Natalee was seen dancing on the beach with Willard "Bud" Larson.

Oh, wait..........Bud is another tourist disappeared on the island of Aruba, no one wants to bring that back to anyone's attention.

imo

You know what's funny to me, No Nic ?? From the little we DO know, when you actually think about it .... none of the posters on your side of the fence, are willing to consider anyone else being responsible for Natalee's "disappearance" .... other than Joran et al.

As much as some seem to think otherwise .... none of us really knows Natalee. We know what we have been told by others. We have no idea what the dynamics were between Natalee and her mother .... between Natalee and Jug .... between Natalee and her family, in general.

What has been VERY obvious to me, from the outset, is the initial poster displayed regarding a "Missing Natalee" .... the one which asked Natalee to call her mother .... IIRC "We need to talk". I certainly COULD be mistaken, but that indicated to me there was some kind of trouble between Natalee and her mother.

I believe there ARE other explanations for Natalee being missing .... there are a few of them, IMO. A simple one .... she chose to leave voluntarily. Another simple one .... she died accidentally.

I wish we DID Know more about her "family life". You have to admit, the "establishment of Natalee's character" at the outset was a little "whitewashed", for lack of a better term.

"Rumors" are rumors, No Nic ((I've seen you post a few )), so "rumors" don't all come from what you term as "hate sites".

JMO

[ortiga]

"Rumors" are rumors, No Nic ((I've seen you post a few )), so "rumors" don't all come from what you term as "hate sites".

JMO

Hi FM, nice nic.

Where there's a mystery there's a rumor. Or two or three. Just a fact of life. I think she drowned after swimming offshore. Happens all the time.

IMO

[No Nic]

<snipped>
I believe there ARE other explanations for Natalee being missing .... there are a few of them, IMO. A simple one .... she chose to leave voluntarily. Another simple one .... she died accidentally.

<snipped>
JMO

As soon as the prosecutor and those that have investigated the case report those possibilities (including how someone who dies "accidentally" disappears her body), then I will consider it. But so far, their investigations have led them to JK2 and ONLY JK2 as causing Natalee's demise and disposing of her body. THEY have the information, after all. I simply hope they can prove it and end this once and for all.

imo

[Heyes]

As soon as the prosecutor and those that have investigated the case report those possibilities (including how someone who dies "accidentally" disappears her body), then I will consider it. But so far, their investigations have led them to JK2 and ONLY JK2 as causing Natalee's demise and disposing of her body. THEY have the information, after all. I simply hope they can prove it and end this once and for all.

imo


That would be nice. We have to wait and see evidently.
I can't get the judges words out of my mind that the kalpoes can't be held because their part of the crime doesn't warrant detention pre trial. They destroyed evidence and hid a body, in aruba that in not something they lock someone up for, Can you believe it? I guess it's expected behavior over there if your buddy kills someone and asked you to help. :shrug:
IMO

[Luke Davis]

As soon as the prosecutor and those that have investigated the case report those possibilities (including how someone who dies "accidentally" disappears her body), then I will consider it. But so far, their investigations have led them to JK2 and ONLY JK2 as causing Natalee's demise and disposing of her body. THEY have the information, after all. I simply hope they can prove it and end this once and for all.

imo

So, we have to wait for the Keystone Kops to tell us the possibilities? I'd rather make up my own.:hat:

[No Nic]

So, we have to wait for the Keystone Kops to tell us the possibilities? I'd rather make up my own.:hat:


Are you saying the Dutch investigators are Keystone Kops?

[JustMyOpinion]

So, we have to wait for the Keystone Kops to tell us the possibilities? I'd rather make up my own.:hat:

Do you think the Dutch investigative team are keystone kops?
Why do you want to make up possibilities?
What do the known facts and circumstances suggest to you?

[JustMyOpinion]

That would be nice. We have to wait and see evidently.
I can't get the judges words out of my mind that the kalpoes can't be held because their part of the crime doesn't warrant detention pre trial. They destroyed evidence and hid a body, in aruba that in not something they lock someone up for, Can you believe it? I guess it's expected behavior over there if your buddy kills someone and asked you to help. :shrug:
IMO


I can believe that under the law the Prosecutor may not have grounds to put them in a pre-trial detention for those alleged crimes, ( I'm waiting to see if the Prosecutor appeals) but if the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and proves they committed these alleged crimes, they will be convicted and sentenced, IMO.

[Luke Davis]

Are you saying the Dutch investigators are Keystone Kops?Yes.

[Chocoholic]

I can believe that under the law the Prosecutor may not have grounds to put them in a pre-trial detention for those alleged crimes, ( I'm waiting to see if the Prosecutor appeals) but if the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and proves they committed these alleged crimes, they will be convicted and sentenced, IMO.

I thought you said at some stage he had already brought a summation. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Under the law the prosecution did feel they had grounds to put the 3 in "voor-arrest" (pre-arrest) detention, but the judge disagreed. If the judge had agreed there were grounds he would have kept the guys in jail. Remember, no bail. Either there is enough suspicion and you stay as a guest of the Queen or you are free to go.

[Luke Davis]

I can believe that under the law the Prosecutor may not have grounds to put them in a pre-trial detention for those alleged crimes, ( I'm waiting to see if the Prosecutor appeals) but if the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and proves they committed these alleged crimes, they will be convicted and sentenced, IMO.If the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and does not prove they committed these alleged crimes, they will be free.

MOO

[Chocoholic]

Yes.


I don't know about the Dutch investigative team, but ALE has been trained in part by some of the best LE agencies in the world, supposedly.

US LE and FBI. :shrug:

IMO, don't wish to go back to look up old links.

[JustMyOpinion]

If the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and does not proves they committed these alleged crimes, they will be free.

MOO

They are already free.

[Chocoholic]

If the Prosecutor brings a summation to court and does not proves they committed these alleged crimes, they will be free.

MOO

Not only that, they can't be re-detained (or arrested) on the same suspicions unless there is actual new evidence. Just like the gangrape, kidnap and murder thing.

The voluntary manslaughter suspicion is not on top of gangrape, kidnap and murder suspicion, it's a suspicion of lower degree and what the prosecutor believes he can hopefully go to trial with.

That's how the law works :shrug:

[JustMyOpinion]

Yes.

Why do you think the KLPD are keystone kops?

[Chocoholic]

They are already free.

From blog rumors (because it's Sunday and right now I'm too lazy to look up links) it's been stated that the prosecutor will appeal the judge's decision so they might be re-detained. I think it's unlikely, but we'll see.

[JustMyOpinion]

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/29/aruba.holloway/index.html
SNIP:The Holloways still have not given up the search for their daughter. In fact, a benefactor is donating an estimated $500,000 to help map the waters offshore.

On Thursday, Natalee's father watched Louis Schaeffer's crew load a boat equipped with the latest sonar equipment and a remote operated vehicle (ROV) to search the waters where Holloway's remains might be.( end exerpt)

Information on remotely operated vehicles:
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/subs/rov/rov.html

[Luke Davis]

I don't know about the Dutch investigative team, but ALE has been trained in part by some of the best LE agencies in the world, supposedly.

US LE and FBI. :shrug:

IMO, don't wish to go back to look up old links.

But they can't find Natalee, so we must demean them.:hat:

[Luke Davis]

They are already free.They are suspects, I don't consider that free. If they are tried, they will be free from suspicion.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

Why do you think the KLPD are keystone kops?
Because they did not find Natalee or solve the case to my knowledge.

IMOO

[JustMyOpinion]

But they can't find Natalee, so we must demean them.:hat:


Who is "we"?

[JustMyOpinion]

Because they did not find Natalee or solve the case to my knowledge.

IMOO

Thanks for answering.
I don't think cold case, KLPD investigators "not finding Natalee" indicates they are "keystone kops", ( especially when it is possible she may have been disposed of in the ocean at depths of 800 - 1000 ft ) IMO. The team was apparently successful in bringing sufficient evidence to get a court order to search van der sloot property & visit the Kalpoe residence last spring, IMO. I don't think failure to solve the case would show they are inept, either, and since Mos says he has new evidence, ( and it appears old evidence may have been analyzed incorrectly).. I think they have accomplished more than ALE was able to do alone, JMO. I wish ALE would have utilized them immediately, JMO.

[Chocoholic]

But they can't find Natalee, so we must demean them.:hat:
But neither can the FBI :eek:

[JustMyOpinion]

But neither can the FBI :eek:


The FBI lacks jurisdiction in this case, IMO.

[Chocoholic]

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/29/aruba.holloway/index.html
SNIP:The Holloways still have not given up the search for their daughter. In fact, a benefactor is donating an estimated $500,000 to help map the waters offshore.

Benefactor? How's the oil industry around Aruba? Looking for a few wells?

[Luke Davis]

http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/29/aruba.holloway/index.html
SNIP:The Holloways still have not given up the search for their daughter. In fact, a benefactor is donating an estimated $500,000 to help map the waters offshore.

On Thursday, Natalee's father watched Louis Schaeffer's crew load a boat equipped with the latest sonar equipment and a remote operated vehicle (ROV) to search the waters where Holloway's remains might be.( end exerpt)

Information on remotely operated vehicles:
http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/technology/subs/rov/rov.html


What we have is a missing person case, which has attracted a great deal of interest. Each individual piece isn't particularly noteworthy but in total makes my mind wander to an incident not so long ago.

The Soviets had lost a submarine of secret design off of Alaska. Nothing could reach the submarine. The CIA contacted Howard Hughes and funded a covert operation. Special ships and equipment were designed and built to recover the submarine.

The cover story was the equipment was a new design to search for oil. In the end, the submarine broke as it was being raised from the extreme depth, only a piece was recovered.

As I have followed the case of Natalee Holloway, I have noticed many similaritites. :chicken:

It would make an interesting novel.:hat:

[Luke Davis]

Who is "we"?Anyone who feels like it.

MOO

[Chocoholic]

The FBI lacks jurisdiction in this case, IMO.
Incorrect. They lack jurisdiction on Aruba, however they have been asked for assistance for interrogations/interview on Aruba and in Alabama, and they have been given what was believed to be forensic evidence to analyze. The FBI has full jurisdiction to investigate this case on US soil but I believe that little effort has been put into it.

Heck, even if the FBI had found Natalee and she demanded to have her location unknown to her parents and she had changed her name, the FBI couldn't even give that info to her parents.

[Chocoholic]

What we have is a missing person case, which has attracted a great deal of interest. Each individual piece isn't particularly noteworthy but in total makes my mind wander to an incident not so long ago.

The Soviets had lost a submarine of secret design off of Alaska. Nothing could reach the submarine. The CIA contacted Howard Hughes and funded a covert operation. Special ships and equipment were designed and built to recover the submarine.

The cover story was the equipment was a new design to search for oil. In the end, the submarine broke as it was being raised from the extreme depth, only a piece was recovered.

As I have followed the case of Natalee Holloway, I have noticed many similaritites. :chicken:

It would make an interesting novel.:hat:

Don't get me going, the books I could write about subjects like the one above alone!

[Luke Davis]

Incorrect. They lack jurisdiction on Aruba, however they have been asked for assistance for interrogations/interview on Aruba and in Alabama, and they have been given what was believed to be forensic evidence to analyze. The FBI has full jurisdiction to investigate this case on US soil but I believe that little effort has been put into it.

Heck, even if the FBI had found Natalee and she demanded to have her location unknown to her parents and she had changed her name, the FBI couldn't even give that info to her parents.

The new prosecuter said the FBI would have handled the case the same way. :hat:


MOO

[JustMyOpinion]

The new prosecuter said the FBI would have handled the case the same way. :hat:


MOO

Link, please. TIA.

[Chocoholic]

Link, please. TIA.

Has already been posted on this board.

[Luke Davis]

Indictment changed
The indictment against the three suspects has changed, says RNW correspondent Jos de Roo in Aruba, one of the Dutch Antilles islands.

Mos told RNW that Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes are now suspected of involvement in the manslaughter of the 18-year old girl, or of causing grievous bodily harm resulting in her death. The public prosecutor says there are convincing indications that Natalee is no longer alive.



Changed (http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/071122-holloway-arrests)

[Chocoholic]

Indictment changed
The indictment against the three suspects has changed, says RNW correspondent Jos de Roo in Aruba, one of the Dutch Antilles islands.

Mos told RNW that Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes are now suspected of involvement in the manslaughter of the 18-year old girl, or of causing grievous bodily harm resulting in her death. The public prosecutor says there are convincing indications that Natalee is no longer alive.


Changed (http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/071122-holloway-arrests)


The term "indictment" that RNW correspondent Jos de Roo used is not correct IMO. The persons of interest are being held on a suspicion of an alleged crime which the prosecutor thinks may have taken place because he can't find a body.

Accusation would be a better word for it.

[Luke Davis]

Link, please. TIA.

Hans Mos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASGSU4JcZg)

I reported this about 2 days ago from a FOX News broadcast but have seen it in articles since. Basically, things would have been done the same but a review showed some possible errors.

MOO

[Chocoholic]

Link, please. TIA.

Although your thirst for knowledge is admirable it would be helpful if you read the links that have been posted.

The incessant demand for : "Link, please. TIA" is becoming rather annoying and tiring when they've already been posted (often several times) in the past 2.5 yrs.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

The term "indictment" that RNW correspondent Jos de Roo used is not correct IMO. The persons of interest are being held on a suspicion of an alleged crime which the prosecutor thinks may have taken place because he can't find a body.

Accusation would be a better word for it.I thought it was interesting that the suspicion had changed.

:hat:

[JustMyOpinion]

Hans Mos (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dASGSU4JcZg)

I reported this about 2 days ago from a FOX News broadcast but have seen it in articles since. Basically, things would have been done the same but a review showed some possible errors.

MOO

I watched the entire video, Mos says NOTHING that you have alleged.
Please stop posting statements as fact with no substantiation, and please stop posting links that do not substantiate what you have previously alleged as fact.

[Chocoholic]

I thought it was interesting that the suspicion had changed.

:hat:

You mean from kidnapping, gangrape and murder down to manslaughter? LOL Sheesh I wonder where I've read that before.

[Luke Davis]

I watched the entire video, Mos says NOTHING that you have alleged.
Please stop posting statements as fact with no substantiation, and please stop posting links that do not substantiate what you have previously alleged as fact.
I believe I indicated it was my opinion. MOO MOO

[Luke Davis]

You mean from kidnapping, gangrape and murder down to manslaughter? LOL Sheesh I wonder where I've read that before.
Many places but you might not find them when asked.
MOO

[Chocoholic]

Many places but you might not find them when asked.
MOO

IMO you are correct! :hat:

[Chocoholic]

"She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071201/D8T8KE200.html

Did beth feel that she was being inconvenienced? Was the object to find her daughter?

[No Nic]

"She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071201/D8T8KE200.html

Did beth feel that she was being inconvenienced? Was the object to find her daughter?

As usual, another failed, pathetic and desperate attempt to denigrate the mother. Per your quote this is something someone said, not Beth's words. But you know that, don't you.

imo

[ortiga]

"She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071201/D8T8KE200.html

Did beth feel that she was being inconvenienced? Was the object to find her daughter?

""She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

When I read that I figured that she was happier with the boys being under suspicion of rape, kidnapping and murder. Now, since those suspicions have been greatly diminished to manslaughter or hiding a body, Beth looks even worse for her calculated campaign of hate against the boys, the VDS family and all of Aruba.

Getting her life back to "normal"???? I thought she was going to look for Natalee for the rest of her life, or did I dream that she said that?

IMO

[No Nic]

""She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

When I read that I figured that she was happier with the boys being under suspicion of rape, kidnapping and murder. Now, since those suspicions have been greatly diminished to manslaughter or hiding a body, Beth looks even worse for her calculated campaign of hate against the boys, the VDS family and all of Aruba.

Getting her life back to "normal"???? I thought she was going to look for Natalee for the rest of her life, or did I dream that she said that?

IMO

You may have "dreamed" that Beth said those words in your quote above when it actually was someone named Carol Standiser.

May as well give it up, your agenda is showing.

imo

[ortiga]

You may have "dreamed" that Beth said those words in your quote above when it actually was someone named Carol Standiser.

May as well give it up, your agenda is showing.

imo


But then again I never said that Beth said those words that were quoted from the article, did I?

[Luke Davis]

As usual, another failed, pathetic and desperate attempt to denigrate the mother. Per your quote this is something someone said, not Beth's words. But you know that, don't you.

imoIsn't that her friend who is going to be on the radio Monday?

[No Nic]

But then again I never said that Beth said those words that were quoted from the article, did I?

No, you didn't and that's why the rest of your post doesn't make sense.

imo

[Luke Davis]

""She was getting her life back to normal before all this happened," Carol Standiser said. "It would have been better to let things go the way they were going."

When I read that I figured that she was happier with the boys being under suspicion of rape, kidnapping and murder. Now, since those suspicions have been greatly diminished to manslaughter or hiding a body, Beth looks even worse for her calculated campaign of hate against the boys, the VDS family and all of Aruba.

Getting her life back to "normal"???? I thought she was going to look for Natalee for the rest of her life, or did I dream that she said that?

IMO

I dreamt she said, she wouldn't leave Aruba without Natalee. MOO IMO IMHO

[No Nic]

Isn't that her friend who is going to be on the radio Monday?

I don't care who it is. Using another's words in an attempt to trash Beth is pathetic and desperate. Poor things, they haven't heard Beth speak to them in so long they must twist the words of others to bash her.

imo

[Luke Davis]

You may have "dreamed" that Beth said those words in your quote above when it actually was someone named Carol Standiser.

May as well give it up, your agenda is showing.

imo
I'm sure Beth will correct her friend if needed. Maybe on the radio tomorrow.


MOO MOO MOO

[No Nic]

I dreamt she said, she wouldn't leave Aruba without Natalee. MOO IMO IMHO

I dreamt that Joran said he did this 20 times before.

MOO IMO IMHO

[ortiga]

I dreamt she said, she wouldn't leave Aruba without Natalee. MOO IMO IMHO

Oh, but I didn't dream that she said she had a statement from Joran wherein he said he had sex with Natalee at his house. And, that he admitted to having sex with her while she was going in and out of consciousness. It's a shame she never proved her claims.

IMO

So she has OKd that her friend go on the air on Monday, that is Carol?

[No Nic]

I'm sure Beth will correct her friend if needed. Maybe on the radio tomorrow.


MOO MOO MOO


Oh My, if Beth does not correct her friend on that exact phrase........then it must be true, right? :rolleyes:

[ortiga]

I don't care who it is. Using another's words in an attempt to trash Beth is pathetic and desperate. Poor things, they haven't heard Beth speak to them in so long they must twist the words of others to bash her.

imo

You don't think that Beth would have been much happier had the case come to a close with the boys suspected of rape, kidnapping, and murder? Or even had the case remained cold with that image in the public's mind?

I do. Because it serves her purpose better, the book sales, the donations, if Natalee could have been said to be kidnapped, violated by 3 guys, and murdered, put in a crab pot, etc.

IMO

[ortiga]

Oh My, if Beth does not correct her friend on that exact phrase........then it must be true, right? :rolleyes:

Oh, if a friend of Beth is going on the air, I think we can be sure that the words are well vetted ahead of time, practiced, nuanced, every little syllable to show Beth in a sympathetic light as a victim. I wonder if the friend will concentrate only on Beth's feelings or if she will even mention Natalee. Will she plug the ISTF?

IMO

[No Nic]

You don't think that Beth would have been much happier had the case come to a close with the boys suspected of rape, kidnapping, and murder? Or even had the case remained cold with that image in the public's mind?

I do. Because it serves her purpose better, the book sales, the donations, if Natalee could have been said to be kidnapped, violated by 3 guys, and murdered, put in a crab pot, etc.

IMO


After reading this, I only have one thing to say.

I am so thankful that I have love and compassion in my life.

[Luke Davis]

Oh My, if Beth does not correct her friend on that exact phrase........then it must be true, right? :rolleyes:No but if Beth strongly disagreed and was asked about it, I'm sure she would give her opinion.


MOO IMO IMHO

[Luke Davis]

Keystone Kops (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf9uAZ9zMi8)

[Chocoholic]

<respectfully snipped for length>
Getting her life back to "normal"???? I thought she was going to look for Natalee for the rest of her life, or did I dream that she said that?

IMO

No, I remember beth saying (quotation marks for ease of readability not for exact quote) "I will not leave Aruba without Natalee."

[Chocoholic]

I dreamt she said, she wouldn't leave Aruba without Natalee. MOO IMO IMHO

Ooops I didn't read down this far yet. Quit kidnapping my dreams. :punch:

[Chocoholic]

Anybody have a link to the airing of "The Lineup"?

Heli posted a transcript that beth was late for the meeting with Hans Mos and Dop Kruimel, and after that she was interrogated for 5 hrs.

Bet that went over well.

Digging my closet for some shoes, don't know which kind yet.

Wonder if beth was ticked off about the 5 hr interrogation.

[Luke Davis]

Anybody have a link to the airing of "The Lineup"?

Heli posted a transcript that beth was late for the meeting with Hans Mos and Dop Kruimel, and after that she was interrogated for 5 hrs.

Bet that went over well.

Digging my closet for some shoes, don't know which kind yet.

Wonder if beth was ticked off about the 5 hr interrogation.

It shows here in about 40 minutes. I hear they interview Deepak's mother. MOO

[JustMyOpinion]

Article on Search Mission to locate Natalee's remains:
http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/30/news/news/news80.txt

SNIP:Silvetti agreed to provide his equipment and primary survey vessel at well below cost, with Schaefer covering all out-of-pocket expenses. Silvetti said his staff volunteered its services for the project as well.

“They said ‘You don’t even have to pay me. I just want to help,’” Silvetti said. “That just tells me we’ve got the right people on board.”

Marc Broussard, project manager for the Silvetti Group, said the company normally performs surveys looking for oil rigs and downed helicopters. Now, it will be using its high-resolution SONAR equipment to look for a body.

To upgrade its systems for the terrain in Aruba, Broussard said the Silvetti Group looked to its vendors, two of which are based in New Iberia.

Seatronics, located at the Port of Iberia, agreed to donate some of its high-tech electronic equipment to scan the ocean floor.

“I told (Silvetti) any opportunity that we had to go in on such a good cause, we would go in on it,” said Erik McGuire, vice president of Seatronics Inc.

“We’re more than happy to give the best effort possible to recover this girl for her family.”

[JustMyOpinion]

Entire article:http://www.amigoe.com/english/
Excerpt:
SNIP:The two fellow suspects of Joran van der Sloot (20), the brothers Deepak (24) and Satish (21) are again released from custody today. The Public Prosecutor (OM) has requested an extension of the custody today, but the examining magistrate ruled against it. The OM has meanwhile announced that she will appeal this decision.
The examining magistrate says that it’s true that the current dossier of the two suspects contains serious ‘objections’ against them, but not enough to keep them longer in custody. Custody based on the current evidence is not allowed. This evidence was the wiping out of traces of a crime scene and the spiriting away of a body, said a spokesperson of the OM. The two brothers remain suspects of voluntary manslaughter or in any case, serious bodily harm that resulted in the death of Natalee Holloway.

Excerpt:
SNIP:The objection that his lawyer Ariean de Bie has lodged against the restrictions imposed on Van der Sloot, is meanwhile dismissed by the Common Court of the Neth.Antilles and Aruba. The restrictions were eased a little though since his arrest. He received a bible and reading matters. The request to receive visitors, like his mother, brother, a ‘different lawyer’ and friends, was dismissed. He cannot have contact with other prisoners, he cannot watch TV, he cannot make telephone calls and write letters, and cannot read current reading material, like newspapers and magazines. He is now allowed to sport under supervision

[Chocoholic]

Article on Search Mission to locate Natalee's remains:
http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/30/news/news/news80.txt

SNIP:Silvetti agreed to provide his equipment and primary survey vessel at well below cost, with Schaefer covering all out-of-pocket expenses. Silvetti said his staff volunteered its services for the project as well.

“They said ‘You don’t even have to pay me. I just want to help,’” Silvetti said. “That just tells me we’ve got the right people on board.”

Marc Broussard, project manager for the Silvetti Group, said the company normally performs surveys looking for oil rigs and downed helicopters. Now, it will be using its high-resolution SONAR equipment to look for a body.

To upgrade its systems for the terrain in Aruba, Broussard said the Silvetti Group looked to its vendors, two of which are based in New Iberia.

Seatronics, located at the Port of Iberia, agreed to donate some of its high-tech electronic equipment to scan the ocean floor.

“I told (Silvetti) any opportunity that we had to go in on such a good cause, we would go in on it,” said Erik McGuire, vice president of Seatronics Inc.

“We’re more than happy to give the best effort possible to recover this girl for her family.”

http://silvettigroup.com/group-intro.html

A Survey provider for the Oil and Gas industry....

As I said before, who is looking for a well?

[terrysdoor]

has anyone read Greta`s blog she says she will have the inside story tonight also i read a post on there from who someone stating it was Robin it says that Beth and Dave are on there way home and everything went well with the meeting i wonder wht Tito says Beth left "unhappy" all IMO

[No Nic]

has anyone read Greta`s blog she says she will have the inside story tonight also i read a post on there from who someone stating it was Robin it says that Beth and Dave are on there way home and everything went well with the meeting i wonder wht Tito says Beth left "unhappy" all IMO


Do you think she has reason to be "happy"? (especially in the place that her daughter was disappeared).

Even finding out what happened to her daughter, even a recovery of Natalee's remains, I doubt, would make Beth "happy". Her beloved daughter is gone forever.

imo

[ortiga]

has anyone read Greta`s blog she says she will have the inside story tonight also i read a post on there from who someone stating it was Robin it says that Beth and Dave are on there way home and everything went well with the meeting i wonder wht Tito says Beth left "unhappy" all IMO

Hi Terry, I don't know if Beth and Dave were interrogated together, or for the same length of time.

But it makes sense that Robin would try to put a spin on the story to make them seem happy with the interrogation. However Tito Lacle said that Beth left "not very happy", and didn't mention Dave at all. Maybe Dave left happy.

IMO

[ortiga]

Do you think she has reason to be "happy"? (especially in the place that her daughter was disappeared).

Even finding out what happened to her daughter, even a recovery of Natalee's remains, I doubt, would make Beth "happy". Her beloved daughter is gone forever.

imo

IIRC recently she said she was in a "good part of her life".

[JustMyOpinion]

However Tito Lacle said that Beth left "not very happy",


Link to published report ( or video) of Tito stating this, please. TIA

[fairmaiden]

Link to published report ( or video) of Tito stating this, please. TIA

Wasn't that just posted, JMO ?? .... Post #1196.

JMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Wasn't that just posted, JMO ?? .... Post #1196.

JMO

"transcription by Heli" is not a link to published report or video.

[ortiga]

"transcription by Heli" is not a link to published report or video.

I have asked you for several links, you choose not to provide them, yet demand them from me and nearly everyone else.

So, where is the link to JK2 all "admitting" that they "transported" Natalee away from the bar; the link to Deepak's car pulling away from the "curb" and not from the parking lot in back of C&C; etc etc etc.

[Chocoholic]

"transcription by Heli" is not a link to published report or video.

If you don't know where to find RU, perhaps you can Google Greta and find out where the shows are listed that were aired.

If you don't know where to find RU, you've been missing out on a large portion of this case. Heli has been nothing short of miraculous providing transcriptions to a variety of shows such as Greta's, Nancy, the Lineup, and others.

I'll be happy to PM you with a link to RU, if you are interested. Just let me know.

[ortiga]

You're turning blue!!

Breathe woman breathe... http://bestsmileys.com/paranoid/1.gif


Calling 911 and starting CPR, can't hold your breath for lack of links!

Oh I know those links will never be furnished. :D

[Luke Davis]

"transcription by Heli" is not a link to published report or video.

about 1:30 left not very happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxgqo0OGTuA)

[Heyes]

Entire article:http://www.amigoe.com/english/
Excerpt:
SNIP:The two fellow suspects of Joran van der Sloot (20), the brothers Deepak (24) and Satish (21) are again released from custody today. The Public Prosecutor (OM) has requested an extension of the custody today, but the examining magistrate ruled against it. The OM has meanwhile announced that she will appeal this decision.
The examining magistrate says that it’s true that the current dossier of the two suspects contains serious ‘objections’ against them, but not enough to keep them longer in custody. Custody based on the current evidence is not allowed. This evidence was the wiping out of traces of a crime scene and the spiriting away of a body, said a spokesperson of the OM. The two brothers remain suspects of voluntary manslaughter or in any case, serious bodily harm that resulted in the death of Natalee Holloway.

Excerpt:
SNIP:The objection that his lawyer Ariean de Bie has lodged against the restrictions imposed on Van der Sloot, is meanwhile dismissed by the Common Court of the Neth.Antilles and Aruba. The restrictions were eased a little though since his arrest. He received a bible and reading matters. The request to receive visitors, like his mother, brother, a ‘different lawyer’ and friends, was dismissed. He cannot have contact with other prisoners, he cannot watch TV, he cannot make telephone calls and write letters, and cannot read current reading material, like newspapers and magazines. He is now allowed to sport under supervision

Ok so the kalpoes need to be rearrested and charged with destroying the evidence and hiding the body. Joran needs to stay in jail and charged with voluntary manslaughter. Oh, and they need to get paulus for at least obstruction of justice and perhaps the same charges as the kalpoes. IMO!
Love the fact the judge won't allow the parents or any current reading material. Perfect. Finally some sort of punishment for such bad behavior!
No phone, no tv, no letters, only a bible and a book. And... no tacopino!
Bet that smirk is off jorans face now.
In my opinion.

[JustMyOpinion]

about 1:30 left not very happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxgqo0OGTuA)

Thanks Luke Davis for providing link to YouTube video.
I wonder how Tito can purport to know Beth left not very happy since she didn't say anything to media?

[cassidy]

Thanks Luke Davis for providing link to YouTube video.
I wonder how Tito can purport to know Beth left not very happy since she didn't say anything to media?

Often times body language and facial expressions can determine a person's mood. Perhaps he saw her?

[Chocoholic]

Thanks Luke Davis for providing link to YouTube video.
I wonder how Tito can purport to know Beth left not very happy since she didn't say anything to media?

Beats me but I bet this poster knows how #1217

[fairmaiden]

Often times body language and facial expressions can determine a person's mood. Perhaps he saw her?

No doubt, cassidy.

JMO

[No Nic]

Often times body language and facial expressions can determine a person's mood. Perhaps he saw her?

You are so correct, assumptions can be made from all that. What can't be assumed is why she looked unhappy. I think if I had just spent several hours discussing the likely demise of my only daughter, I would not be all sparkly eyed and sunshine smiles. But then, that is just me, others may not agree.

imo

[Chocoholic]

Ok so the kalpoes need to be rearrested and charged with destroying the evidence and hiding the body. Joran needs to stay in jail and charged with voluntary manslaughter. Oh, and they need to get paulus for at least obstruction of justice and perhaps the same charges as the kalpoes. IMO!
Love the fact the judge won't allow the parents or any current reading material. Perfect. Finally some sort of punishment for such bad behavior!
No phone, no tv, no letters, only a bible and a book. And... no tacopino!
Bet that smirk is off jorans face now.
In my opinion.

Any credible links to known "bad behavior" or only your suspicion?

Actually I believe it was stated that he only received a bible to read. Would that be constitutional in the US? No access to a lawyer, deprived from everything but food, water and a possibly a bed and toilet?

Sounds like solitary confinement to me, except a little harsher, because even in solitary confinement I believe the person being held gets to exercise outside it's cell.

[Chocoholic]

No doubt, cassidy.

JMO

Totally OT

Love your new avatar. http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

[ortiga]

Often times body language and facial expressions can determine a person's mood. Perhaps he saw her?


I can imagine after a 5 hour interrogation that she was fuming, and we did see her face for months on TV in that mode, so I think anyone looking at her could tell if she was angry or not.

I wonder if anyone in MB is worried about now, expecially about the report about the taxi driver overhearing Jug and a friend discussing bank withdrawals and Natalee's possible rehab experience. This was reported on one of the Aruba news websites about 2 weeks ago, and is in the past threads should anyone care to read back. I believe the taxi drivers name was Trina. I would think that would have been one of the interrogation items.

I can't tell from Lacle's interview if Dave was held as long as Beth, or if they were separated and held for different times. Also, I would like to know if the interrogators read her book and therefore if some of the questions were about inconsistencies in the book compared with what was said earlier.

IMO

[HiLife]

I can imagine after a 5 hour interrogation that she was fuming, and we did see her face for months on TV in that mode, so I think anyone looking at her could tell if she was angry or not.

I wonder if anyone in MB is worried about now, expecially about the report about the taxi driver overhearing Jug and a friend discussing bank withdrawals and Natalee's possible rehab experience. This was reported on one of the Aruba news websites about 2 weeks ago, and is in the past threads should anyone care to read back. I believe the taxi drivers name was Trina. I would think that would have been one of the interrogation items.

I can't tell from Lacle's interview if Dave was held as long as Beth, or if they were separated and held for different times. Also, I would like to know if the interrogators read her book and therefore if some of the questions were about inconsistencies in the book compared with what was said earlier.

IMO

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

I should think no one would want to waste time "reading back" about the most obvious, latest rumor about a taxi driver overhearing.....blah, blah, blah....telephone game. Why should Cindy Adams have her own column when being a taxi driver qualifies you for a spot with the National Enquirer.......first a taxi driver overhears about the mythical Blue-Eyed Dutch Marine.....now a taxi driver overhears bank transactions and rehab rumors. How exciting. :rolleyes:

Puzzling to me how people are looking for Beth to be in "pain" or "upset." Tito Lacle is nothing but an Aruba Spinster who spews Aruba propaganda. He knows nothing about Beth or Dave or what went on in their meeting. These people will never learn about wishing harm to others.....

jmo

[fairmaiden]

Totally OT

Love your new avatar. http://bestsmileys.com/thumbs/7.gif

Thanks Choco .... :seeya:

[Chocoholic]

<snip>

Puzzling to me how people are looking for Beth to be in "pain" or "upset." Tito Lacle is nothing but an Aruba Spinster who spews Aruba propaganda. He knows nothing about Beth or Dave or what went on in their meeting. These people will never learn about wishing harm to others.....

jmo

One of your posting friends does the very same thing but I didn't see you criticize post #1217

Is everybody on Aruba who doesn't give a favorable report of beth somebody who "spews propaganda" or a liar?

Come on, I know you can do better than that.

imo

[Luke Davis]

I can imagine after a 5 hour interrogation that she was fuming, and we did see her face for months on TV in that mode, so I think anyone looking at her could tell if she was angry or not.

I wonder if anyone in MB is worried about now, expecially about the report about the taxi driver overhearing Jug and a friend discussing bank withdrawals and Natalee's possible rehab experience. This was reported on one of the Aruba news websites about 2 weeks ago, and is in the past threads should anyone care to read back. I believe the taxi drivers name was Trina. I would think that would have been one of the interrogation items.

I can't tell from Lacle's interview if Dave was held as long as Beth, or if they were separated and held for different times. Also, I would like to know if the interrogators read her book and therefore if some of the questions were about inconsistencies in the book compared with what was said earlier.

IMO

Diario is reporting Beth was questioned for 6 hours, the maximum without being arrested/detained. Link is not in English but you can Google it. Unofficial translation posted here:

6 hours (http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/)

[Luke Davis]

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

I should think no one would want to waste time "reading back" about the most obvious, latest rumor about a taxi driver overhearing.....blah, blah, blah....telephone game. Why should Cindy Adams have her own column when being a taxi driver qualifies you for a spot with the National Enquirer.......first a taxi driver overhears about the mythical Blue-Eyed Dutch Marine.....now a taxi driver overhears bank transactions and rehab rumors. How exciting. :rolleyes:

Puzzling to me how people are looking for Beth to be in "pain" or "upset." Tito Lacle is nothing but an Aruba Spinster who spews Aruba propaganda. He knows nothing about Beth or Dave or what went on in their meeting. These people will never learn about wishing harm to others.....

jmo

Maybe we will find out the truth when Beth is on Dana's show tonight.

IMO

[No Nic]

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

I should think no one would want to waste time "reading back" about the most obvious, latest rumor about a taxi driver overhearing.....blah, blah, blah....telephone game. Why should Cindy Adams have her own column when being a taxi driver qualifies you for a spot with the National Enquirer.......first a taxi driver overhears about the mythical Blue-Eyed Dutch Marine.....now a taxi driver overhears bank transactions and rehab rumors. How exciting. :rolleyes:

Puzzling to me how people are looking for Beth to be in "pain" or "upset." Tito Lacle is nothing but an Aruba Spinster who spews Aruba propaganda. He knows nothing about Beth or Dave or what went on in their meeting. These people will never learn about wishing harm to others.....

jmo

Hiya, HiLife. More to-do about nothing.

Beth and Dave requested this meeting and wanted to share the information that they have gathered, the last bunch in charge wasn't interested. The new investigators were willing and that is a great thing. I highly doubt they were "interrogated" in the true sense of the word. I am sure there were questions & answers from both sides. Sadly, we know that some will only believe what is in their best interests regarding the situation. I am sure we will hear what the meeting was all about, soon. Some will not believe it because Tito has already given them exactly what they want.

AS far as the word "interrogated", I think Tito may have "mis-translated" what he meant. You know that good ol' "lost in translation" that has been used over and over on this board. Think it could be possible here? Or it may be as you have said, spewing Aruba propaganda, Tito does work with JuliaR and co., IIRC. A sad, sad bunch of people to be living on "One Happy Island".

imo

[ortiga]

I don't even know where to begin with this post.

I should think no one would want to waste time "reading back" about the most obvious, latest rumor about a taxi driver overhearing.....blah, blah, blah....telephone game. Why should Cindy Adams have her own column when being a taxi driver qualifies you for a spot with the National Enquirer.......first a taxi driver overhears about the mythical Blue-Eyed Dutch Marine.....now a taxi driver overhears bank transactions and rehab rumors. How exciting. :rolleyes:

Puzzling to me how people are looking for Beth to be in "pain" or "upset." Tito Lacle is nothing but an Aruba Spinster who spews Aruba propaganda. He knows nothing about Beth or Dave or what went on in their meeting. These people will never learn about wishing harm to others.....

jmo


IIRC Beth mentioned a taxi driver by that name in her book. So, some part of the Twitty contingent was apparently established to have interacted with the taxi driver. Now the taxi driver is telling more.....

Since Beth spread rumors around for months on TV, and continued to do so in her book, why are her rumors supposed to go unquestioned?

Now that reports are finally starting to come out of Aruba, with the help of a journalist, why not listen, evaluate, and investigate them? Just like Beth's rumors should have been evaluated and investigated.

Or, maybe in the 5-6 hour interrogation, finally they are starting to put her on the spot.

IMO

[ortiga]

Maybe we will find out the truth when Beth is on Dana's show tonight.

IMO

I wonder if Dana will go on spouting off about not letting Tacopina on his show "again" when Joe never even answered Dana's invitations in the first place.

IMO

[fairmaiden]

Hiya, HiLife. More to-do about nothing.

Beth and Dave requested this meeting and wanted to share the information that they have gathered, the last bunch in charge wasn't interested. The new investigators were willing and that is a great thing. I highly doubt they were "interrogated" in the true sense of the word. I am sure there were questions & answers from both sides. Sadly, we know that some will only believe what is in their best interests regarding the situation. I am sure we will hear what the meeting was all about, soon. Some will not believe it because Tito has already given them exactly what they want.

AS far as the word "interrogated", I think Tito may have "mis-translated" what he meant. You know that good ol' "lost in translation" that has been used over and over on this board. Think it could be possible here? Or it may be as you have said, spewing Aruba propaganda, Tito does work with JuliaR and co., IIRC. A sad, sad bunch of people to be living on "One Happy Island".

imo

I'm always surprised by posts like this No Nic. I think, truth be told, you believe what you want to hear also. Why would you doubt they were "interrogated", in the true sense of the word ?? IIRC .... have they been questioned/interrogated before ?? It's not unusual in missing person cases, to my knowledge.

ETA .... It seems to work in reverse for you. Anything which indicates Beth might be subjected to questioning/interrogation, is completely dismissed by you.

JMO

[Chocoholic]

I'm always surprised by posts like this No Nic. I think, truth be told, you believe what you want to hear also. Why would you doubt they were "interrogated", in the true sense of the word ?? IIRC .... have they been questioned/interrogated before ?? It's not unusual in missing person cases, to my knowledge.

ETA .... It seems to work in reverse for you. Anything which indicates Beth might be subjected to questioning/interrogation, is completely dismissed by you.

JMO


ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- Satish Kalpoe, one of two brothers rearrested last week in the 2005 disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, shook his attorney's hand Saturday after leaving a jail in San Nicolas, Aruba.
A short time later, his brother, Deepak, left a jail in Noord, Aruba, dressed in jeans and carrying a white trash bag of clothes and personal items.
He was accompanied by two attorneys. Deepak had no comment when asked how it felt to be free.
Prosecutors wanted Deepak and Satish Kalpoe held in Aruba for another eight days, but a judge rejected their request Friday.
Hans Mos, Aruba's chief public prosecutor, has three days to appeal and will decide Monday whether or not to do so.

Meanwhile, Holloway's parents met with Mos for about an hour Saturday, and with interrogators for three hours. Neither spoke to reporters afterward.

(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/01/aruba.holloway/

Ok so the CNN report was incorrect about the length of time, but I doubt the interrogators were there to have a jolly ole' chinwag with the Holloways for good times sake. I have a feeling the interrogators would rather spend a day on the beach with the family.

[terrysdoor]

I'm always surprised by posts like this No Nic. I think, truth be told, you believe what you want to hear also. Why would you doubt they were "interrogated", in the true sense of the word ?? IIRC .... have they been questioned/interrogated before ?? It's not unusual in missing person cases, to my knowledge.

ETA .... It seems to work in reverse for you. Anything which indicates Beth might be subjected to questioning/interrogation, is completely dismissed by you.

JMO

Fair i agree with your post IMO the link Luke gave above it says Beth was picked up at a high rise and they went to the police station and she was questioned for 6 hours as long as you can be held without arrest.......IMO this case will most likely be solved NOONE tells the same story all in my opinion

[No Nic]

I'm always surprised by posts like this No Nic. I think, truth be told, you believe what you want to hear also. Why would you doubt they were "interrogated", in the true sense of the word ?? IIRC .... have they been questioned/interrogated before ?? It's not unusual in missing person cases, to my knowledge.

ETA .... It seems to work in reverse for you. Anything which indicates Beth might be subjected to questioning/interrogation, is completely dismissed by you.

JMO

This happened TWO DAYS ago, Fair and we are ALREADY hearing various accounts of this one event. When and if I hear the prosecutor's or the investigator's 1st hand account of this event, I could change my mind.

Now, tell me, was Beth "rudely" 1/2 hour late for her meeting OR did the police pick her up from her hotel and escort her?

Believe what you want, matters not to me, I will wait for an OFFICIAL / CREDIBLE report of what actually transpired.

imo

imo

[ortiga]

This happened TWO DAYS ago, Fair and we are ALREADY hearing various accounts of this one event. When and if I hear the prosecutor's or the investigator's 1st hand account of this event, I could change my mind.

Now, tell me, was Beth "rudely" 1/2 hour late for her meeting OR did the police pick her up from her hotel and escort her?

Believe what you want, matters not to me, I will wait for an OFFICIAL / CREDIBLE report of what actually transpired.

imo

Or, maybe she WAS late for the interrogations, AND THEN they went to "pick her up".

[fairmaiden]

This happened TWO DAYS ago, Fair and we are ALREADY hearing various accounts of this one event. When and if I hear the prosecutor's or the investigator's 1st hand account of this event, I could change my mind.

Now, tell me, was Beth "rudely" 1/2 hour late for her meeting OR did the police pick her up from her hotel and escort her?

Believe what you want, matters not to me, I will wait for an OFFICIAL / CREDIBLE report of what actually transpired.

imo

imo

But you said .... you "doubted they were interrogated, in the true sense of the word". Why would you doubt that ?? I believe, no matter which report you might read ((and I agree, many reports appear to be conflicting in this case)) .... it DOES appear they were interrogated.

I guess we all make up our minds who is "credible" and who isn't .... but the "interrogating" seems to be a common word in ALL of the reports I've read.

JMO

[Luke Davis]

I wonder if Dana will go on spouting off about not letting Tacopina on his show "again" when Joe never even answered Dana's invitations in the first place.

IMOJoe T and Ward were on CTV, nothing new.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- Satish Kalpoe, one of two brothers rearrested last week in the 2005 disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway, shook his attorney's hand Saturday after leaving a jail in San Nicolas, Aruba.
A short time later, his brother, Deepak, left a jail in Noord, Aruba, dressed in jeans and carrying a white trash bag of clothes and personal items.
He was accompanied by two attorneys. Deepak had no comment when asked how it felt to be free.
Prosecutors wanted Deepak and Satish Kalpoe held in Aruba for another eight days, but a judge rejected their request Friday.
Hans Mos, Aruba's chief public prosecutor, has three days to appeal and will decide Monday whether or not to do so.

Meanwhile, Holloway's parents met with Mos for about an hour Saturday, and with interrogators for three hours. Neither spoke to reporters afterward.

(snip)

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/01/aruba.holloway/

Ok so the CNN report was incorrect about the length of time, but I doubt the interrogators were there to have a jolly ole' chinwag with the Holloways for good times sake. I have a feeling the interrogators would rather spend a day on the beach with the family.

I wonder if the time difference is due to lunch? Reports are from 9 in the morning until 2:30 in the afternoon. Is that almost 6 hours? 4 hours with an hour and half for lunch? 5 hours with half hour lunch????


MOO

[ortiga]

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=

Can anyone translate Papimiento? This article is accompanied by a photo of Beth and JQK, but Dave is nowhere in sight.

I haven't heard about Dave being interrogated, just Beth.

IMO

[ortiga]

I wonder if the time difference is due to lunch? Reports are from 9 in the morning until 2:30 in the afternoon. Is that almost 6 hours? 4 hours with an hour and half for lunch? 5 hours with half hour lunch????


MOO

In most of the tropical and latin American countries I have traveled in, lunch starts at 2 pm.

[Luke Davis]

In most of the tropical and latin American countries I have traveled in, lunch starts at 2 pm.Another reason not to go.

:hat:

[Luke Davis]

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=

Can anyone translate Papimiento? This article is accompanied by a photo of Beth and JQK, but Dave is nowhere in sight.

I haven't heard about Dave being interrogated, just Beth.

IMO

In my opinion, it says Beth is disgusted and visibly upset.

[ortiga]

In my opinion, it says Beth is disgusted and visibly upset.

I would guess "upset and visibly angry"

in spanish rabia means fury or anger, we used to have a papimiento translator here, pap to English. Remember that? I can't find it on google.

[JustMyOpinion]

In my opinion, it says Beth is disgusted and visibly upset.


What Papiamento words do you think translate into "disgusted" and "visibly upset"?

[ortiga]

Another reason not to go.

:hat:


But, then there's a siesta until about 5

[Luke Davis]

What Papiamento words do you think translate into "disgusted" and "visibly upset"?In the end, Beth Twitty much disgusted and visibly angry, owing to denial of giving comentary at good morning aruba hour cu past owing to bandona keep of police, acompany for his advocate American John Q. Kelly.


Translator (http://www.donamaro.nl/papiamentu/index.php?pAction=tradusi)


very much MOO

[ortiga]

In my opinion, it says Beth is disgusted and visibly upset.


I found the translator: http://www.donamaro.nl/papiamentu/index.php?pAction=tradusi We used to use it all the time on CTV. We used to have an Aruban poster but I don't know of any here on the board now.

From the article link:

"Beth Twitty hopi disgusta y visiblemente rabia"

yields

"beth twitty much disgusta y visiblemente angry"

Since papiamentu incorporates a lot of Spanish, in spanish disgustar means to upset.

That's why I opined it meant she was upset and visibly angry.

"If you really want to say I’m disgusted, you should use the phrase estoy indignado." http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/es/archive/2006/11/13.html

IMO

Oops, I see you also found the translator

[Luke Davis]

I found the translator: http://www.donamaro.nl/papiamentu/index.php?pAction=tradusi We used to use it all the time on CTV. We used to have an Aruban poster but I don't know of any here on the board now.

From the article link:

"Beth Twitty hopi disgusta y visiblemente rabia"

yields

"beth twitty much disgusta y visiblemente angry"

Since papiamentu incorporates a lot of Spanish, in spanish disgustar means to upset.

That's why I opined it meant she was upset and visibly angry.

"If you really want to say I’m disgusted, you should use the phrase estoy indignado." http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/es/archive/2006/11/13.html

IMO

Oops, I see you also found the translator

Yes but it isn't real great. Just enough to get the flavor but easy to make mistakes. But she does not look happy in the photo.

MOO

[ortiga]

Yes but it isn't real great. Just enough to get the flavor but easy to make mistakes. But she does not look happy in the photo.

MOO

So where's Dave? I don't see any reference to him being interrogated. Did Beth get to have her lawyer present? Does he practice law in Aruba?

[Chocoholic]

Yes but it isn't real great. Just enough to get the flavor but easy to make mistakes. But she does not look happy in the photo.

MOO

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9657/bethjohnoh5.gif

This picture was posted in relationship to beth, I'm stunned it's her, couldn't see the resemblance to her previous self. Only the hair looks somewhat similar.

imo

[Chocoholic]

In most of the tropical and latin American countries I have traveled in, lunch starts at 2 pm.

In Europe at least where I traveled, all stores, garages, banks and government offices, etc were closed during lunch for an hour or more. The only exceptions were open markets and large departments stores. :shrug:

[ortiga]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/9657/bethjohnoh5.gif

This picture was posted in relationship to beth, I'm stunned it's her, couldn't see the resemblance to her previous self. Only the hair looks somewhat similar.

imo

She does look very different now. I didn't realize that JQK was so short. Or is he standing in a ditch.

[ortiga]

In Europe at least where I traveled, all stores, garages, banks and government offices, etc were closed during lunch for an hour or more. The only exceptions were open markets and large departments stores. :shrug:


I think they interrogated her until 2:30 then went for lunch. I doubt they would quit and resume after lunch.

[Chocoholic]

I think they interrogated her until 2:30 then went for lunch. I doubt they would quit and resume after lunch.

I agree.

I also found when traveling the tropics that life has a different tempo, no doubt due to the heat and subsequent siesta. Tend to get up later, have their own unhurried pace and have dinner later. We often didn't have dinner until 9 or 10 at night.

[HiLife]

Fair i agree with your post IMO the link Luke gave above it says Beth was picked up at a high rise and they went to the police station and she was questioned for 6 hours as long as you can be held without arrest.......IMO this case will most likely be solved NOONE tells the same story all in my opinion

DSL was down for hours in our area....

anyway, interesting you bring this up, terry. So Beth was picked up at her high rise and taken to the police station? ALE picked her up? Is this why she was 1/2 hour late?

LOL - of course.....it's somehow always Beth's fault or some nefarious Beth behavior. :rolleyes:

jmo