Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6) [Archive] - Page 4

docwho3

11-27-2007, 10:40 PM

Why are all of you ignoring the phrase "or causing bodily harm which resulted in death?"

Do you believe that equates to murder also?
(Your words in the post brought to mind some thoughts of my own but my response is not aimed particularly at you. I am just commenting, sharing a thought.)

In the interview that I watched of the prosecutor he explained voluuntary manslaughter using the example that if you hit someone in the head with an axe to cause them harm and they die you would know that such an action would likely result in death when you did it. That example sounds very much close to my own definition of the gist of a murder. The differences between the two crimes would be slight.

***********
". . . But if you, for example, take an axe with the intention to just hit a person to make him suffer and have pain, but you hit the axe on the head with force, then you should take into account that this person can be killed within that action. That's a risk you take. And that was what we mean with voluntary manslaughter. . ."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
***********

Whatever label we put on the crime it appears it is being alleged they meant to cause her harm, to make her suffer, and knew the actions taken towards that end might result in her death.

Chocoholic

11-27-2007, 11:05 PM

Whatever label we put on the crime it appears it is being alleged they meant to cause her harm, to make her suffer, and knew the actions taken towards that end might result in her death.

We do know that the labels "kidnapping, gangrape and murder" are no longer there so I wonder what this overwhelming new evidence is that they have and why nobody has been charged. If they really had evidence they would have brought charges, no pussy-footing around.

Grandad

11-27-2007, 11:17 PM

(Your words in the post brought to mind some thoughts of my own but my response is not aimed particularly at you. I am just commenting, sharing a thought.)

In the interview that I watched of the prosecutor he explained voluuntary manslaughter using the example that if you hit someone in the head with an axe to cause them harm and they die you would know that such an action would likely result in death when you did it. That example sounds very much close to my own definition of the gist of a murder. The differences between the two crimes would be slight.

***********
". . . But if you, for example, take an axe with the intention to just hit a person to make him suffer and have pain, but you hit the axe on the head with force, then you should take into account that this person can be killed within that action. That's a risk you take. And that was what we mean with voluntary manslaughter. . ."
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
***********

Whatever label we put on the crime it appears it is being alleged they meant to cause her harm, to make her suffer, and knew the actions taken towards that end might result in her death.

If the prosecutor had brought suspicion of manslaughter only, I could agree with you.

Including the lesser charge of "causing bodily harm which resulted in death" is a cop out.

It's an admission he really doesn't believe he can prove manslaughter, but he's hoping the judge will convict on some crime so that the prosecutor won't look so foolish.

Here in the states prosecutors include lesser charges to make a conviction more palatable to those jurors on the fence. It's a way of playing on, and taking advantage of, the jurors' emotions.

Under the Aruban/Dutch system emotions don't play a part in the judge's decision. Either the prosecution can prove it's case or it can't. The prosecutor should know to a certainty what the verdict will be.

In this case, if the prosecutor had evidence of manslaughter, he wouldn't have asked for detention, there would be no need to interrogate the suspects. He would have laid charges, and they would have gone to trial.

I hope for the sake of his family the prosecutor never takes up poker as a way to make a living.

Luke Davis

11-27-2007, 11:19 PM

He has it, therefore I have no doubt he can produce it.
The question is, will he bring a summation to court?, IMO.
Nifong had it. Every prosecuter has it.

MOO

Luke Davis

11-27-2007, 11:26 PM

fairmaiden

11-27-2007, 11:28 PM

I guess you were hitting the submit button while I was hunting and pecking.

LOL Grandad .... GMTA ....

fairmaiden

11-27-2007, 11:32 PM

We do know that the labels "kidnapping, gangrape and murder" are no longer there so I wonder what this overwhelming new evidence is that they have and why nobody has been charged. If they really had evidence they would have brought charges, no pussy-footing around.

Choco .... This is what I have been asking since the three were "re-re-rearrested". I truly don't understand why .... IF he has the "incriminating evidence" he speaks about, why he doesn't charge them.

STRICTLY O/T .... Does anyone have that "Norelco ad" at the top of the page . That ad just grosses me out .... lol.

JMO

docwho3

11-27-2007, 11:47 PM

If the prosecutor had brought suspicion of manslaughter only, I could agree with you.

Including the lesser charge of "causing bodily harm which resulted in death" is a cop out.

It's an admission he really doesn't believe he can prove manslaughter, but he's hoping the judge will convict on some crime so that the prosecutor won't look so foolish.

Here in the states prosecutors include lesser charges to make a conviction more palatable to those jurors on the fence. It's a way of playing on, and taking advantage of, the jurors' emotions. . . I must say that very possibility has crossed my mind but I hesitated to say it because I did not wish to appear to be rushing to judgement in that matter. I am hoping things are not just part of a big backside saving Public Relations stunt and that the investigation is a serious one with a serious intent and a final just conclusion.
But so far I have not been terribly impressed with the investigation. Still, hope springs eternal.

No Nic

11-28-2007, 12:04 AM

Nifong had it. Every prosecuter has it.

MOO

And every defense attorney's client is innocent and the prosecution has no evidence against their client.

MOO

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 01:00 AM

And every defense attorney's client is innocent and the prosecution has no evidence against their client.

MOOThat's why they play the game. Let's go to court.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 07:08 AM

JMO .... If he HAS it, and can produce it .... why would there be a question of him bringing a summation to court ??

JMO

He hasn't stated he will do so, therefore it remains a question, IMO.
I don't know if he believes he has strong enough evidence to prove any of the crimes alleged in a court of law. JMO

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 07:12 AM

Choco .... This is what I have been asking since the three were "re-re-rearrested". I truly don't understand why .... IF he has the "incriminating evidence" he speaks about, why he doesn't charge them.

JMO

Seems apparent to me based on how the inquisitorial system works and on his own words that the Prosecutor wishes to first confront them with the evidence and get their responses to questions asked, JMO.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 08:12 AM

In this case, if the prosecutor had evidence of manslaughter, he wouldn't have asked for detention, there would be no need to interrogate the suspects. He would have laid charges, and they would have gone to trial.

I hope for the sake of his family the prosecutor never takes up poker as a way to make a living.

I disagree that the Prosecutor wouldn't have asked for detentions prior to bringing a summation. In the inquisitorial system, suspects are questioned, they are expected ( but not required) to answer. Are you saying you don't think these suspects deserved the opportunity to make declarations in their own defense when confronted with evidence?
I don't think the prosecutor is playing a game. Dutch investigators worked with ALE over a period of time, it appears old evidence has now been properly analyzed & new evidence has been obtained sufficient to re-arrest three primary suspects and prolong their detentions.
The prosecutor has nothing to gain by garnering publicity in a cold case, IMO, I think he is seriously pursuing justice, JMO.

Grandad

11-28-2007, 08:21 AM

I must say that very possibility has crossed my mind but I hesitated to say it because I did not wish to appear to be rushing to judgement in that matter. I am hoping things are not just part of a big backside saving Public Relations stunt and that the investigation is a serious one with a serious intent and a final just conclusion.
But so far I have not been terribly impressed with the investigation. Still, hope springs eternal.

I'm sure everyone wants to see a final and just conclusion. I believe some day in the future we will see one.

I just believe the investigation has been too narrow in scope, and there are some who might be willing to make three innocent young men scapegoats in an attempt to bring a conclusion.

I'm not saying J2K will be railroaded into prison. I just don't think anyone will admit they screwed up , and fully exonerate any of the suspects that have been treated unjustly.

Grandad

11-28-2007, 08:29 AM

I disagree that the Prosecutor wouldn't have asked for detentions prior to bringing a summation. In the inquisitorial system, suspects are questioned, they are expected ( but not required) to answer. Are you saying you don't think these suspects deserved the opportunity to make declarations in their own defense when confronted with evidence?
I don't think the prosecutor is playing a game. Dutch investigators worked with ALE over a period of time, it appears old evidence has now been properly analyzed & new evidence has been obtained sufficient to re-arrest three primary suspects and prolong their detentions.
The prosecutor has nothing to gain by garnering publicity in a cold case, IMO, I think he is seriously pursuing justice, JMO.

The suspects have made declarations of their innocence.

"Old evidenvce", which really wasn't evidence to start with has been repackaged and redefined, but it still isn't evidence. If it were, there would have been charges.

It's sort of like trying to put lipstick on a pig.

In his mind he may be pursuing justice, but in this instance he's drawing to an inside straight.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 08:40 AM

The suspects have made declarations of their innocence.

"Old evidenvce", which really wasn't evidence to start with has been repackaged and redefined, but it still isn't evidence. If it were, there would have been charges.

It's sort of like trying to put lipstick on a pig.

In his mind he may be pursuing justice, but in this instance he's drawing to an inside straight.

It appears to me that old evidence was improperly analyzed, and has now been analyzed correctly and presented to suspects in detention.
It is my understanding that the prosecutor can wait until a summation to submit all evidence to the court, ( it would not be discovered by suspects or their lawyers until then).
I have no doubt this prosecutor knows how to proceed in the inquisitorial system & the Dutch/Aruban court, and he isn't playing a card game, IMO.
Since you appear to believe the suspects have been treated unjustly ( despite the fact judges approved their detentions on every occasion) I'm not surprised you categorize it as such. JMO

Grandad

11-28-2007, 09:06 AM

It appears to me that old evidence was improperly analyzed, and has now been analyzed correctly and presented to suspects in detention.
It is my understanding that the prosecutor can wait until a summation to submit all evidence to the court, ( it would not be discovered by suspects or their lawyers until then).
I have no doubt this prosecutor knows how to proceed in the inquisitorial system & the Dutch/Aruban court, and he isn't playing a card game, IMO.
Since you appear to believe the suspects have been treated unjustly ( despite the fact judges approved their detentions on every occasion) I'm not surprised you categorize it as such. JMO

They are being treated unjustly because they have been detained without evidence.

In this country it would be false arrest.

What's happening in Aruba may technically be "legal", but it is unjust. The intent of the law has been abused and the system has been manipulated.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 09:09 AM

They are being treated unjustly because they have been detained without evidence.

.

Since Judges ( in the Netherlands and Aruba) have approved & prolonged detentions ( according to news reports, after reviewing evidence), I disagree with your opinion. If these were unjust detentions I have little doubt the suspects' lawyers would have filed an appeal, JMO.

Grandad

11-28-2007, 09:15 AM

Since Judges ( in the Netherlands and Aruba) have approved & prolonged detentions ( according to news reports, after reviewing evidence), I disagree with your opinion. If these were unjust detentions I have little doubt the suspects' lawyers would have filed an appeal, JMO.

The suspects weren't detained because of any evidence. They were detained on suspicion.

If the judge releases the suspects when this period of detention is over, the prosecutor can bring suspicions of another lesser crime, such as assault and battery, the Aruban equivalent, of course, and the suspects will be detained for two days without a court order, and the court will then allow another eight day detainment based only on the prosecutor's suspicion.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 09:19 AM

The suspects weren't detained because of any evidence. They were detained on suspicion.

.

It requires evidence to re-arrest suspects on reasonable suspicion and to prolong their detentions on reasonable suspicion, which is why detention hearings are required at specified intervals, IMO. Thus far,Joran's latest detention has been prolonged twice, the Kalpoes' latest detention has been prolonged once.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 09:26 AM

If the judge releases the suspects when this period of detention is over, the prosecutor can bring suspicions of another lesser crime, such as assault and battery, the Aruban equivalent, of course, and the suspects will be detained for two days without a court order, and the court will then allow another eight day detainment based only on the prosecutor's suspicion.

I wish you would cite a published source for allegations you post as fact.
Is this just your opinion? If so, would you note it as such? TIA.
Based on what Hans Mos has said in interviews, I think he'll bring a summation by Dec 31, or allow the case to be officially closed. Nothing he has said thus far indicates to me that he has an interest in prolonging detentions over a long period of time, IMO.

Grandad

11-28-2007, 09:27 AM

Grandad

11-28-2007, 09:33 AM

I wish you would cite a published source for allegations you post as fact.
Is this just your opinion? If so, would you note it as such? TIA.
Based on what Hans Mos has said in interviews, I think he'll bring a summation by Dec 31, or allow the case to be officially closed. Nothing he has said thus far indicates to me that he has an interest in prolonging detentions over a long period of time, IMO.

Hans Mos does not make the final determination of when the case will be closed.

The only determination he can make is whether or not to bring charges.

If he brings charges he must submit all his evidence to the court and a judge will determine whether or not there is sufficient evidence for a trial.

As to where I get my information, I have posted my source several times.

You certainly have no obligation to believe anything I say, but you haven't yet proved anything I've said is wrong.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 09:34 AM

The suspects were not rearrested on the original suspicions. They were detained on new suspicions of crimes of a less serious nature.

The total of 10 days detention is, from a practical point of view, automatic.

I disagree with your opinion. ( even though you state your opinion as fact).

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 09:35 AM

It requires evidence to re-arrest suspects on reasonable suspicion and to prolong their detentions on reasonable suspicion, which is why detention hearings are required at specified intervals, IMO. Thus far,Joran's latest detention has been prolonged twice, the Kalpoes' latest detention has been prolonged once.

I admit I'm being very "simplistic", JMO .... but frankly, I feel it would give the Prosecutor more credibility if he would CHARGE them with a crime, IF, as he says, he has incriminating evidence to prove it. He maintains he has NEW evidence PROVING voluntary manslaughter.

I realize it's a different legal system than I'm used to anyway .... probably than MOST of us are used to, but there comes a time IMO .... when you have to "put up or shut up".

ETA .... I didn't mean YOU specifically, as in the "put up or shut up". It was used in a general sense.

JMO

Grandad

11-28-2007, 09:39 AM

I disagree with your opinion. ( even though you state your opinion as fact).

Disagreeing with my statement and disproving my statement are two different things.

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 10:10 AM

The total of 10 days detention is, from a practical point of view, automatic.

This appears to be your opinion.
I disagree. If it were "automatic", Paulus van der Sloot would not have been released in 2005..IMO.

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 10:36 AM

I admit I'm being very "simplistic", JMO .... but frankly, I feel it would give the Prosecutor more credibility if he would CHARGE them with a crime, IF, as he says, he has incriminating evidence to prove it. He maintains he has NEW evidence PROVING voluntary manslaughter.

I realize it's a different legal system than I'm used to anyway .... probably than MOST of us are used to, but there comes a time IMO .... when you have to "put up or shut up".

ETA .... I didn't mean YOU specifically, as in the "put up or shut up". It was used in a general sense.

JMO

I agree fairmaiden. It is torture to keep suspects on strings like puppets, for longer than absolutely necessary. Over two years has to be straining any credibility the Aruba officials have. Let's go to court.

Lay out the evidence and have a decision.

MOO

Grandad

11-28-2007, 10:36 AM

This appears to be your opinion.
I disagree. If it were "automatic", Paulus van der Sloot would not have been released in 2005..IMO.

How long was Paulus detained?

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 10:45 AM

Grandad

11-28-2007, 10:53 AM

If the idea is to confront the suspects with new evidence, why is the new evidence being withheld form the suspects?

I can see keeping proof from the suspects, charging them and convicting them. But this is just a game being played by the prosecutor.

MOO

Didn't Deepak's lawyer say Deepak was interrogated the first two days, but not the next three?

Heyes

11-28-2007, 11:12 AM

I don't see anything they said bearing out. Beth has not explained her lies, Dave said in his book the boys had confessed to gang rape (or at least he said that Deepak said that), Beth said Natalee was kidnapped, drugged, gang raped, and nothing of that is even alluded to by any one responsible in the case. I would say that almost nothing that Beth said has anything to do with reality, and she has some big apologies to spread around. Even what she tried to spread around about her daughter's exceptional qualities seems to have been greatly exaggerated, turns out that Natalee is just a normal teen as most are, drinking, smoking, flirting with guys via jello shots, and partying all day and into the night. Just like most of us did. If we are honest. Except for the jello shots, that was definitely not done when I was a teen and that was in the 70's when practically anything was OK.

IMO

BETH????? has some big apologies to spread around????? LMAO LOL LOL LOL
UM.... For what?
Too funny!

Just because joran and the kalpoes might have killed Natalee doesn't make them murderers!!! LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Aw, defense spin, ya gotta love it!

IMO!

Grandad

11-28-2007, 11:18 AM

<snip>
Aw, defense spin, ya gotta love it!

IMO!

All the spin seems to be coming from the prosecutor.

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 11:19 AM

If the idea is to confront the suspects with new evidence, why is the new evidence being withheld form the suspects?

I can see keeping proof from the suspects, charging them and convicting them. But this is just a game being played by the prosecutor.

MOO

Luke .... I TOTALLY agree with you. I have always said .... IF there is credible evidence they are guilty of "harming" Natalee, then they should be charged with a crime.

I may be missing something here but .... isn't this "new evidence" what Joran et al are being confronted with now ???

JMO

SukiJane

11-28-2007, 11:20 AM

Didn't Deepak's lawyer say Deepak was interrogated the first two days, but not the next three?

I thought he said Deepak hasn't been interrogated since last Thursday, and that he was now...'taking the 5th'?

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 11:26 AM

Luke .... I TOTALLY agree with you. I have always said .... IF there is credible evidence they are guilty of "harming" Natalee, then they should be charged with a crime.

I may be missing something here but .... isn't this "new evidence" what Joran et al are being confronted with now ???

JMO

I think it's likely they are currently being confronted with some old evidence that the Prosecutor said wasn't analyzed correctly, JMO. ( based on public statements from the Kalpoe attorneys). IMO

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 11:27 AM

I thought he said Deepak hasn't been interrogated since last Thursday, and that he was now...'taking the 5th'?

Can one "take the 5th" in Aruba ?? ;)

JMO

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 11:32 AM

Can one "take the 5th" in Aruba ?? ;)

JMO

I doubt very much Aruba's Constitution has a 5th amendment that reads like the U.S. Constitution, JMO. ( I think his lawyer was throwing out an "American phrase", JMO)
But yes, he has the right to remain silent during interrogation, IMO

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 11:35 AM

If the idea is to confront the suspects with new evidence, why is the new evidence being withheld form the suspects?

MOO

I don't know what is going on inside interrogation rooms.
I only know what defense attorneys have alleged.
Perhaps the Prosecutor will prefer to confront the suspects with some of the new evidence during a summation to court in front of a Judge, JMO

Heyes

11-28-2007, 11:38 AM

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha, he'd better get used to it, I think he will be there awhile.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/27/holloway.arrest/index.html

LOL LOL ahhh poor little manslaughter suspect/liar wants a bible???. uh huh. lol lol

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 11:57 AM

All the spin seems to be coming from the prosecutor.

Since the prosecutor hasn't revealed any specifics about the new evidence, I don't see any "spinning" on his part, JMO
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
VAN SUSTEREN: Since you've been here, you've actually sort of surprised all of us when a press release came out saying that there had been new evidence that has led to the arrests. How do you define new evidence?

MOS: New evidence is evidence that we didn't have before. As simple as that.

VAN SUSTEREN: I'm confused. So you cannot tell me whether it's physical evidence, this new evidence, or it's testimonial??

MOS: I'm not going to tell you that.

VAN SUSTEREN: OK. I was...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
SNIP:
MOS: It's all in the interests of the investigation. You know this investigation has been going on for a long time. People ask me, Is it a desperate last try of the public prosecutor's office? We are not desperate. And yes, it may be a last try in solving this case, which we are determined to do and which we're trying to do as best as we can. But give us the time and the peace to do this under this law system as well as we can.
These restrictions go with trying to do it as best as we can. And I know it's very bad for the American public, any public, because anyone wants to know what's going on, and we cannot disclose it at this time.

Heyes

11-28-2007, 12:02 PM

All the spin seems to be coming from the prosecutor.

LOL, nope, I'm only hearing the Nazi germany remarks from jorans spin attorney tacopino, ya know the guy that can't practice law in aruba but can get on the US tv shows to spin spin spin.
imo

Heyes

11-28-2007, 12:04 PM

I thought he said Deepak hasn't been interrogated since last Thursday, and that he was now...'taking the 5th'?

That's what I heard. Taking the 5th. can they do that under aruban law?
and lol lol deepak won't tell the truth, his "INNOCENT" lol lol truth. Taking the fifth? whatcha hiding deepak?
IMO
By the way how old is deepaks attorney? 20? 24? lol lol
IMO

Heyes

11-28-2007, 12:06 PM

Can one "take the 5th" in Aruba ?? ;)

JMO

lol I should have read more. you asked the same question. ah great minds and all!

:seeya:

Heyes

11-28-2007, 12:07 PM

sieg66

11-28-2007, 12:26 PM

Hello sieg

I'm sorry it took so long to respond. <self edited for self preservation>. Slow internet connections suck.

I agree that Dutch society is rather tolerant of convicted criminals. However, there as yet has to be evidence provided that shows that Natalee's disappearance was the result of a crime.

Also please don't forget that IF the guys are tried on Aruba AND they are somehow convicted they will be going to an Aruban jail. They're not as comfy and cozy as the Dutch - what I can only call - guest houses.

I'll look it up in a bit, but I believe that Aruba still has torture on it's books as being legal. I was researching it a bit the other day but a busy work schedule and a nasty cold got in the way. I'll see if I can find it.

I think, if convicted, joran will asked to be extradited to holland as soon as possible...and with his connections will have no problem getting that ok-ed

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 12:33 PM

That's what I heard. Taking the 5th. can they do that under aruban law?
and lol lol deepak won't tell the truth, his "INNOCENT" lol lol truth. Taking the fifth? whatcha hiding deepak?
IMO
By the way how old is deepaks attorney? 20? 24? lol lol
IMO

I could be mistaken here .... but IIRC .... Deepak isn't the only suspect to refuse to answer questions .... is he ??

Do you think others may be hiding something ??

JMO

Heyes

11-28-2007, 01:08 PM

I could be mistaken here .... but IIRC .... Deepak isn't the only suspect to refuse to answer questions .... is he ??

Do you think others may be hiding something ??

JMO

Do I think others may be hiding something? Fair, do you not know me????? lol,lol
Of course I do. Remember joran had more to tell but he felt the last two years were not the time. The prosecutor believes it is time. Now!

As far as transfered to Holland goes. Who cares? as long as his butt is on trial!
However since most of the players and the locations are in aruba I don't think they will allow him to leave.
IMO

Heyes

11-28-2007, 01:17 PM

So we heard in the beginning that a neighbor saw deepak/satish washing his car in the middle of the night. The same night Natalee disappeared after leaving with these guys. :eek: :chicken:
Now I remember deepak first saying it was sand, then ants. however I have no idea now who reported that.
Well, well, now we have a neighbor who said YES! the car was being washed in the middle of the night. now THAT little tid bit sure points to something bad happened, What possible excuses are the defense attorney's going to come up for this piece of info?
What, mrs. kalpoe was just washing it for deepak as a little reward for being such a good boy?
Geeez these guys need to be locked up for at least 15 years, I would prefer life.
imo

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 02:03 PM

Do I think others may be hiding something? Fair, do you not know me????? lol,lol
Of course I do. Remember joran had more to tell but he felt the last two years were not the time. The prosecutor believes it is time. Now!

As far as transfered to Holland goes. Who cares? as long as his butt is on trial!
However since most of the players and the locations are in aruba I don't think they will allow him to leave.
IMO

Heyes .... I only have the pleasure of "knowing you" from a messageboard. I wasn't talking about Joran. I believe when Joran made that statement, it was when he was cornered on campus, IIRC. I believe he was referring to what he was going to tell the public. I believe he meant he would tell the public more in due time. I don't believe he was talking about Law Enforcement. IMO.

I was referring to other suspects ((there are about 8 or 9 of them as I remember)). Didn't a few of them refuse to answer any questions ??

JMO

Heyes

11-28-2007, 02:53 PM

Heyes .... I only have the pleasure of "knowing you" from a messageboard. I wasn't talking about Joran. I believe when Joran made that statement, it was when he was cornered on campus, IIRC. I believe he was referring to what he was going to tell the public. I believe he meant he would tell the public more in due time. I don't believe he was talking about Law Enforcement. IMO.

I was referring to other suspects ((there are about 8 or 9 of them as I remember)). Didn't a few of them refuse to answer any questions ??

JMO
It didn't look like joran was cornered to me. He stuck around after saying "it's none of your business", and talked and talked and.....
I think he is saying he has more to tell. The prosecutor feels that joran has more to tell. joran says he has more to tell. So he needs to tell it now!
That's a really good question I wish one of these interviewers would ask the prosecutor. What about the other 8,9 suspects? What was their role?
imo

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 03:09 PM

It didn't look like joran was cornered to me. He stuck around after saying "it's none of your business", and talked and talked and.....
I think he is saying he has more to tell. The prosecutor feels that joran has more to tell. joran says he has more to tell. So he needs to tell it now!
That's a really good question I wish one of these interviewers would ask the prosecutor. What about the other 8,9 suspects? What was their role?
imo

Heyes .... It seems to me .... IF Joran had more to tell LE, he would have been re-arrested much sooner. It just doesn't make sense that they are not going to want to know what "more he has to tell".

JMO

JustMyOpinion

11-28-2007, 03:22 PM

Heyes .... It seems to me .... IF Joran had more to tell LE, he would have been re-arrested much sooner. JMO

It makes perfect sense to me that the investigative team likely wanted to utilize all the time they possibly could to gather and analyze evidence in this case, and that the Prosecutor waited until near his self-imposed deadline of 12/31 to re-arrest the primary suspects in this case,JMO.

Heyes

11-28-2007, 03:31 PM

Heyes .... It seems to me .... IF Joran had more to tell LE, he would have been re-arrested much sooner. It just doesn't make sense that they are not going to want to know what "more he has to tell".

JMO

New investigators, new prosecutor, no direct contact with other suspects or his father who managed to obstruct justice the last time. This new team looks serious. I dont think joran or his father ever suspected this could happen.

tee hee hee

IMO

Grandad

11-28-2007, 04:51 PM

Grandad

11-28-2007, 04:52 PM

I think, if convicted, joran will asked to be extradited to holland as soon as possible...and with his connections will have no problem getting that ok-ed

Has Joran been convicted of committing any crime in Holland?

Grandad

11-28-2007, 04:59 PM

I doubt very much Aruba's Constitution has a 5th amendment that reads like the U.S. Constitution, JMO. ( I think his lawyer was throwing out an "American phrase", JMO)
But yes, he has the right to remain silent during interrogation, IMO

OMG! I think you hit on something.

Sometime when a person says something in one language, it might not translate to the identical thing in another language, although it does convey the thought the speaker was trying to communicate.

Gee, something like that could be the basis of rumors and misunderstandings.

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 05:25 PM

I think it's likely they are currently being confronted with some old evidence that the Prosecutor said wasn't analyzed correctly, JMO. ( based on public statements from the Kalpoe attorneys). IMOI wouldn't respond to old evidence, just stand on my earlier statement. The new evidence might get my attention but only if I can see it. Sounds like a big bluff to me.

MOO

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 05:27 PM

Can one "take the 5th" in Aruba ?? ;)

JMOYes, but it isn't called the 5th in Dutch, that is the American translation. They have the right to remain silent and the right to a lawyer.

MOO

For Arubans, I believe it is the 8th.

IMO

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 05:29 PM

I don't know what is going on inside interrogation rooms.
I only know what defense attorneys have alleged.
Perhaps the Prosecutor will prefer to confront the suspects with some of the new evidence during a summation to court in front of a Judge, JMOFor me, that would be a good reason to remain silent and wait.

MOO

Luke Davis

11-28-2007, 05:33 PM

I could be mistaken here .... but IIRC .... Deepak isn't the only suspect to refuse to answer questions .... is he ??

Do you think others may be hiding something ??

JMOIIRC GVC refused to speak and did not sign a statement.

MOO

fairmaiden

11-28-2007, 10:44 PM

I remember some people bothered by Aruban officials dragging their feet, now it seems a virtue to the same posters.

MOO

Luke .... I thought exactly the same thing as you did.

JMO

Chocoholic

11-28-2007, 11:46 PM

I think, if convicted, joran will asked to be extradited to holland as soon as possible...and with his connections will have no problem getting that ok-ed

That'll depend on the judges. Again, there is no extradition agreement between Aruba and the Netherlands, both countries are part of the Dutch Kingdom and an extradition is not required.

On the other hand Joran, should he ever go to jail, may prefer to stay on Aruba, closer to his family.

Chocoholic

11-28-2007, 11:49 PM

OMG! I think you hit on something.

Sometime when a person says something in one language, it might not translate to the identical thing in another language, although it does convey the thought the speaker was trying to communicate.

Gee, something like that could be the basis of rumors and misunderstandings.

What an incredible concept. :D

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 12:45 AM

In "The Case of Natalee Holloway: My Own Story about her Disappearance on Aruba," Van der Sloot admits he lied to police, and he apologizes to Natalee's family. Yet he insists he is innocent.

ABC (http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3925483&page=1)

He continues, "I want to apologize to Natalee's parents, Dave Holloway and Beth Twitty, and to both of their families, for the fact that I initially made up statements. I can't say that I agree with many of the things they did, but the pain of not knowing where their daughter is and what happened to her must be unimaginably great. ? I hope every day that Natalee will be found."

A spokesperson for Van der Sloot's Dutch publisher, Sijthoff, told ABC News it does not release sales figures of the books in its collection and cannot comment on the success of Van der Sloot's work.

More in the article.

terrysdoor

11-29-2007, 08:14 AM

Grandad

11-29-2007, 09:44 AM

Good morning all.....

on fox news yesterday i saw the lady lawyer (i don`t know her name) that is working with Joe T she said they had seen the evidence and none of it was new IIRC did anyone else see or here

I didn't see that interview, but I saw both the Kalpoes' attorneys who said the same thing.

I don't think there's any question that charges would have been brought if there were any actual evidence.

The prosecutor is playing a head game. He thinks after two years the suspects have become complacent and locking them up will get someone to talk.

He talks about interrogating them, but my guess is the first two days when the suspects didn't have access to an attorney all three were being told the other two have confessed and have agreed to testify against the third.

HiLife

11-29-2007, 09:45 AM

Good morning all.....

on fox news yesterday i saw the lady lawyer (i don`t know her name) that is working with Joe T she said they had seen the evidence and none of it was new IIRC did anyone else see or here

Could you expect anything other than this from lawyers defending Joran?

Apparently, last night, Joe T. admitted that ALE have new recordings, that the homes of the suspects had been bugged and that is what the new recordings are about. Of couse, he did also throw in that nothing incriminated Joran. :rolleyes:

Also, seems the Chief Prosecutor disagrees about no new evidence - I can't wait to see (or hear) it!:

==========================

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

VAN SUSTEREN: Since you've been here, you've actually sort of surprised all of us when a press release came out saying that there had been new evidence that has led to the arrests. How do you define new evidence?

<snipped>

MOS:.............. New evidence is evidence that we didn't have before. As simple as that. So the judge weighed this evidence. And of course, when you arrest a person two years later, after he's been freed, you have to have some serious stuff. And that's exactly what we handed over to the judge.

jmo

Grandad

11-29-2007, 09:50 AM

<snip>
They have the right to remain silent and the right to a lawyer,

<snip>

But they don't have access to a lawyer the first two days.

This is one of the reasons new suspicions were brought instead of having them arrested under the original suspicions.

It gave the prosecutor two days to question the three without their having access to attorneys, and it required only suspicions, not evidence, to detain them.

If the prosecutor had asked to rearrest them under the original suspicions he would have had to submit the "new evidence" to the court before they were rearrested.

terrysdoor

11-29-2007, 10:12 AM

I didn't see that interview, but I saw both the Kalpoes' attorneys who said the same thing.

I don't think there's any question that charges would have been brought if there were any actual evidence.

The prosecutor is playing a head game. He thinks after two years the suspects have become complacent and locking them up will get someone to talk.

He talks about interrogating them, but my guess is the first two days when the suspects didn't have access to an attorney all three were being told the other two have confessed and have agreed to testify against the third.

well after the eight day detention will the prosecutor have to bring fourth the "new evidence" IMO

Grandad

11-29-2007, 11:07 AM

well after the eight day detention will the prosecutor have to bring fourth the "new evidence" IMO

He probably won't be required to produce new evidence, but he'll have to convince the judge there's some compelling reason to prolong detention, such as verifying the suspects' statements, interviewing witnesses or waiting for test results.

The standard will be lower than if the suspects had been arrested under the original suspicions, but the judge probably won't be very patient.

JustMyOpinion

11-29-2007, 11:29 AM

But they don't have access to a lawyer the first two days.

This is one of the reasons new suspicions were brought instead of having them arrested under the original suspicions.

It gave the prosecutor two days to question the three without their having access to attorneys, and it required only suspicions, not evidence, to detain them.

If the prosecutor had asked to rearrest them under the original suspicions he would have had to submit the "new evidence" to the court before they were rearrested.

Since you are posting statements as fact ( instead of opinion) please link to a published source which confirms this is factual under Dutch/Aruban law/procedure, or a published statement from an Aruban/Dutch Prosecutor or Judge confirming what you allege, TIA.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 11:30 AM

FOX reported the Kalpoe hearing is beginning.

MOO

JustMyOpinion

11-29-2007, 11:32 AM

He probably won't be required to produce new evidence, but he'll have to convince the judge there's some compelling reason to prolong detention, such as verifying the suspects' statements, interviewing witnesses or waiting for test results.

The standard will be lower than if the suspects had been arrested under the original suspicions, but the judge probably won't be very patient.

Please post a link to a published source confirming statements you are posting as fact. TIA. Where is it written that the standard is lower?
WHere is it written they won't be required to bring new evidence, where is it written the Prosecutor will have to convince there is "compelling reason" to prolong detention? When has the Prosecutor stated this? TIA.

ortiga

11-29-2007, 12:53 PM

What an incredible concept. :D

Yes, learn something new every day. None of us have ever mentioned the folly of translating through several languages and then extracting American "cable style" sound bites from the final translation.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 01:58 PM

FOX News reporting hearing is over, decision tomorrow.

ortiga

11-29-2007, 02:17 PM

FOX News reporting hearing is over, decision tomorrow.

Well at least all those American reporters can go to the beach between these monumental press releases.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 02:20 PM

FOX News reporting Hans Mos said FBI would have done exactly what ALE did.

MOO

fairmaiden

11-29-2007, 02:55 PM

FOX News reporting hearing is over, decision tomorrow.

Luke .... What exactly is being decided ?? Whether or not there is enough evidence to charge .... whether or not to detain them for another period of time?? I must admit .... I'm confused ....

JMO

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 02:56 PM

A hearing is scheduled Friday on whether there is enough evidence to detain the Kalpoe brothers for another eight days while authorities pursue the investigation. A judge gave initial approval Monday for the detention of van der Sloot, who was arrested in the Netherlands and returned to Aruba last Friday.

AP (http://www.courttv.com/news/holloway/112907_ap.html)

Authorities say new evidence warrants the detention of van der Sloot and the other suspects, Surinamese brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, who were the last people known to see Holloway alive before she vanished on May 30, 2005.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 02:58 PM

Luke .... What exactly is being decided ?? Whether or not there is enough evidence to charge .... whether or not to detain them for another period of time?? I must admit .... I'm confused ....

JMOIt is confusing, since it isn't open. I think the hearing tomorrow will be to hold the Kalpoe brothers or not. The hearing today was about visitation and conditions.

MOO

fairmaiden

11-29-2007, 03:03 PM

It is confusing, since it isn't open. I think the hearing tomorrow will be to hold the Kalpoe brothers or not. The hearing today was about visitation and conditions.

MOO

Thank you, Luke .... :seeya:

Why .... since they haven't been CHARGED with a crime .... would they not be allowed reading material, or visitors ??

JMO

Grandad

11-29-2007, 03:19 PM

Thank you, Luke .... :seeya:

Why .... since they haven't been CHARGED with a crime .... would they not be allowed reading material, or visitors ??

JMO

Even if they were charged why would they not be allowed reading material or visitors?

I think it may be a condition of detainment which is not applied in every detainment.

I think in this case the prosecutor is desperate and he's trying every psychological trick at his disposal to break the suspects.

ETA

I don't think the prosecutor has any special animosity for J2K, or at this point has even made a determination of their guilt or innocence.

I think he's trying to do the job he was assigned to do, anyway he can.

ortiga

11-29-2007, 03:33 PM

Thank you, Luke .... :seeya:

Why .... since they haven't been CHARGED with a crime .... would they not be allowed reading material, or visitors ??

JMO

Even if they were charged with a crime they should be able to receive visitors and have reading material.

I think it's going to look real bad internationally if they don't allow Joran, and K2 these innocuous items, although it may be that only Joran is requesting them.

Why shouldn't they see their families? There must be official visiting hours.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 03:56 PM

Search news (http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/29/news/news/news00.txt)

An expedition to search the waters off Aruba for the remains of missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway leaves today from the Port of Iberia.

The research vessel Persistence, owned by the Lafayette-based Silvetti Group, will make the 10-day journey to the island. A 20- to 25-man crew will spend at least two weeks surveying the sea floor for Holloway, who has been missing since May 30, 2005

ortiga

11-29-2007, 04:29 PM

Search news (http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/29/news/news/news00.txt)

That seems like a long time, 10 days from Louisiana to Aruba.

Grandad

11-29-2007, 04:34 PM

Search news (http://www.iberianet.com/articles/2007/11/29/news/news/news00.txt)

They can probably identify objects on the ocean floor, but there's no way they can identify if an object is a human skeleton, and they probably can't pick up individual bones.

In case they think they've found something, do they have divers on board?

Will they be in waters where divers can operate?

Grandad

11-29-2007, 04:36 PM

That seems like a long time, 10 days from Louisiana to Aruba.

They could be mapping the ocean floor for another reason.

fairmaiden

11-29-2007, 05:01 PM

Even if they were charged with a crime they should be able to receive visitors and have reading material.

I think it's going to look real bad internationally if they don't allow Joran, and K2 these innocuous items, although it may be that only Joran is requesting them.

Why shouldn't they see their families? There must be official visiting hours.

Both you and Grandad are correct, ortiga. I agree. I think it's especially intolerable since they HAVEN'T been charged with anything.

JMO

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 05:11 PM

They could be mapping the ocean floor for another reason.7.3 earthquake.

MOO

Grandad

11-29-2007, 05:33 PM

7.3 earthquake.

MOO

Venezuela, oil. Louisiana and Texas, oil refineries.

How do you get one to the other most expediently?

JustMyOpinion

11-29-2007, 06:22 PM

It is confusing, since it isn't open. I think the hearing tomorrow will be to hold the Kalpoe brothers or not. MOO

"On The Record" Producer reported the Kalpoe detention hearing was held today, ruling issued tomorrow.
http://gretawire.foxnews.com/

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 07:44 PM

"On The Record" Producer reported the Kalpoe detention hearing was held today, ruling issued tomorrow.
http://gretawire.foxnews.com/

:shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

A hearing is scheduled for tomorrow in Aruba on whether there is enough evidence to detain the Kalpoe brothers for another 8 days otherwise they will be released tomorrow.

:shrug:

NBC (http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-11-29-0014.html)

AP (http://www.wtok.com/news/headlines/11950711.html)

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 07:46 PM

FOX News reporting Joe Tacopina is headed to Aruba to present evidence to clear Joran.

MOO

fairmaiden

11-29-2007, 08:09 PM

FOX News reporting Joe Tacopina is headed to Aruba to present evidence to clear Joran.

MOO

Thank you Luke for all the news ((is some of it conflicting, or is it just me ??))

JMO

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 08:22 PM

Thank you Luke for all the news ((is some of it conflicting, or is it just me ??))

JMO
Yes fairmaiden. I had heard the Kalpoe hearing was today but it is being reported the hearing was requests from Joran. Those results will be announced tomorrow and a hearing for Kalpoes. OR the Kalpoe hearing was today. Depends on which report to believe. I'm gonna trust AP.
:shrug:

MOO

StarShine

11-29-2007, 09:45 PM

FOX News reporting Joe Tacopina is headed to Aruba to present evidence to clear Joran.

MOO

:shrug: I just heard him say he was going down there next week. How can he present evidence to clear Joran? He isn't representing him there.

No Nic

11-29-2007, 10:03 PM

:shrug: I just heard him say he was going down there next week. How can he present evidence to clear Joran? He isn't representing him there.

IIRC, I heard him say the other night that he wanted to show the prosecutor the "exculpatory evidence" he has that will clear Joran. :rolleyes: Why he has not provided this previously so Joran could be cleared as a suspect is any body's guess.

New rumor/speculation (?) going around that Joran was caught on tape discussing how Natalee died that night, that he will be the one charged with voluntary manslaughter and K2 of lesser charges. :shrug: Sounds about right to me.

imo

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 10:08 PM

:shrug: I just heard him say he was going down there next week. How can he present evidence to clear Joran? He isn't representing him there.I guess I was mistaken or things changed. Anyone could present evidence to clear Joran if they had it. Just as people came forward to clear one of the security guards.

Joe indicated he had evidence which cleared Joran. Personally, I think he is playing mind games with the Aruban prosecuter. Perhaps you show me yours, I'll show you mine.

MOO

Grandad

11-29-2007, 10:16 PM

<snip>
New rumor/speculation (?) going around that Joran was caught on tape discussing how Natalee died that night, that he will be the one charged with voluntary manslaughter and K2 of lesser charges. :shrug: Sounds about right to me.

imo

Sounds right based on what?

Grandad

11-29-2007, 10:17 PM

I guess I was mistaken or things changed. Anyone could present evidence to clear Joran if they had it. Just as people came forward to clear one of the security guards.

Joe indicated he had evidence which cleared Joran. Personally, I think he is playing mind games with the Aruban prosecuter. Perhaps you show me yours, I'll show you mine.

MOO

The prosecutor says he has new evidence, why can't Joe?

Heyes

11-29-2007, 10:36 PM

The prosecutor says he has new evidence, why can't Joe?

So joe has "exculatory evidence"...... why did he wait so long to present it. joran tried to be released as a suspect and the judge wouldn't allow it, right?
Where was joe then?
Somehow I feel that joe is full of hot aruban wind. I also don't think he's going to fair well in aruba. If they had a problem with Beth and thought she was aggressive, wait until Joe has one of his high pitched hissy fits. Yikes!

IMO!

No Nic

11-29-2007, 10:39 PM

So joe has "exculatory evidence"...... why did he wait so long to present it. joran tried to be released as a suspect and the judge wouldn't allow it, right?
Where was joe then?
Somehow I feel that joe is full of hot aruban wind. I also don't think he's going to fair well in aruba. If they had a problem with Beth and thought she was aggressive, wait until Joe has one of his high pitched hissy fits. Yikes!

IMO!

Joe just wants a vacation and face time on TV, he is going to milk this for all it is worth. At the same time he is making a great big fool of himself. Oh wait..........already done.

imo

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 10:57 PM

The prosecutor says he has new evidence, why can't Joe?I'm still waiting to see all the evidence in Beth's journal.

doesn't get any clearer then that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNM32lS81Zc)

Chocoholic

11-29-2007, 11:00 PM

So joe has "exculatory evidence"...... why did he wait so long to present it. joran tried to be released as a suspect and the judge wouldn't allow it, right?
<snip>

The investigation was ongoing but the boys were free to go as they wanted. It had already been determined that all but one of the SGs and Paul v.d. Sloot were going to remain suspects.

This is an opportunity, just as for the prosecutor to bring forth what everybody has and show it to the judges.

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 11:21 PM

Joe to Aruba (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnDbY-wWCXo)

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 11:29 PM

Dr. Andrew Hodges solves the case (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBpAx-8eYl8)

Luke Davis

11-29-2007, 11:44 PM

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/29/aruba.holloway/#cnnSTCVideo)

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- The chief prosecutor in the Natalee Holloway investigation has agreed to meet Saturday with the parents of the missing Alabama teen, who is presumed dead.

"I'm really anxious to meet him," Beth Holloway told CNN. "I've waited a long time for this meeting."

The family says it has no new information about where to look. The Holloways just want to exhaust every area they can offshore with equipment that wasn't available to them two years ago.

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 12:05 AM

AP video (http://video.syndication.msn.com/v/Legacy.aspx?mk=en-ap&g=464930db-e421-4a56-9db4-539c44cbeff1&f=AP&fg=rss&partner=en-ap)

The hearings.

Grandad

11-30-2007, 03:14 AM

I'm still waiting to see all the evidence in Beth's journal.

doesn't get any clearer then that (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNM32lS81Zc)

I'll bet the statements have disppeared or have been falsified.

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 08:51 AM

terrysdoor

11-30-2007, 09:05 AM

AP video (http://video.syndication.msn.com/v/Legacy.aspx?mk=en-ap&g=464930db-e421-4a56-9db4-539c44cbeff1&f=AP&fg=rss&partner=en-ap)

The hearings.

if the Kalpoes are released today will that be the last time they can be arrested on this case ? IMO

Grandad

11-30-2007, 09:05 AM

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:09 AM

http://www.mufti.ca/gallery/d/6598-2/fIMG_0038.jpg

Those boys must have had one heck of a job. I wonder why if they supposedly used a trap like the one above which is manageable with about 20 lbs in it, in which case they would have needed 5 or 6 traps, or if they used one of the very large commercial traps they borrowed from the Alaska crab fisheries which weigh just a tad more and are a little more difficult to handle.

http://www.arcus.org/TREC/VBC/uploads/1145941802/med_gallery_24_14_119549.jpg

All that without leaving a shred of forensic evidence anywhere on Aruba. Must have been one heck of a job getting one of those commercial traps flown down to Aruba without anybody noticing.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 09:13 AM

YouTube Video: Greta ( Fox news, On the Record) interview of Louis Schaefer, speaking about the RV Persistence, and deep underwater search.
Video shows pictures of vessel, and some of the equipment inside.
Schaefer said they are searching a deep underwater trench where they believe Natalee's body ( inside a crab trap) was submerged/hidden.
Schaefer said the depth actually helps preserve remains. ( I'm guessing because the water is very cold, and Schaefer said there is less sea life down there).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qw2PItatCdE

Informative clip and thanks for posting it, JMO.

As the man is speaking, it is chilling to hear about the description of a possible crab trap being so deep and "better preserving her remains" in the cold water - especially as while he is speaking, they have that lovely picture of Natalee on the bottom right hand corner of the screen. :(

I know this is unscientific, but when you posted about them searching a deep underwater trench, the Carla Baron show (:eek: ) came to mind and how the guy was talking about Natalee's body being in a "crevice" of some sort.

*chills*

jmo

HiLife

11-30-2007, 09:16 AM

Those boys must have had one heck of a job. I wonder why if they supposedly used a trap like the one above which is manageable with about 20 lbs in it, in which case they would have needed 5 or 6 traps, or if they used one of the very large commercial traps they borrowed from the Alaska crab fisheries which weigh just a tad more and are a little more difficult to handle.

All that without leaving a shred of forensic evidence anywhere on Aruba. Must have been one heck of a job getting one of those commercial traps flown down to Aruba without anybody noticing.

Why are you assuming the crab trap to be so LARGE or so small? :shrug:

jmo

eta - Does it snow on Aruba? ;) Is that what they mean by "it'll be a cold day in H3ll when....?" or "a snowball's chance in.....":biggrin:

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 09:21 AM

Did he say they have the capability of retrieving anything they locate?

He didn't address that issue in the interview.
If they locate remains, perhaps U.S. Navy divers ( or divers from the Netherlands) will volunteer for a salvage mission, JMO.
http://www.necc.navy.mil/diver/divingSpecialties.htm
First Class Diver: First Class Divers perform planning for SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), Closed Circuit, and saturation diving operations on submarine lock-outs, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 1,000 feet. They perform and supervise chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:31 AM

Why are you assuming the crab trap to be so LARGE or so small? :shrug:

jmo

eta - Does it snow on Aruba? ;) Is that what they mean by "it'll be a cold day in H3ll when....?" :biggrin:

Either way, either Natalee's body had to be cut up in pieces or the trap had to be large enough to fit an entire body. The first scenario would leave one h#ll of a bloody mess, the other would require at least 3 people and a boat to toss the thing in the water.

Find me a trap that would neatly fit a body of Natalee's size without too much trouble because J2K had very limited time in which to "murder" Natalee, find a trap of appropriate proportions, find a boat and get to a spot where the water would be deep enough to dump the trap over the side and be guaranteed it wouldn't drift to a more shallow location.

TIA

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:32 AM

He didn't address that issue in the interview.
If they locate remains, perhaps U.S. Navy divers ( or divers from the Netherlands) will volunteer for a salvage mission, JMO.
http://www.necc.navy.mil/diver/divingSpecialties.htm
First Class Diver: First Class Divers perform planning for SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), Closed Circuit, and saturation diving operations on submarine lock-outs, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 1,000 feet. They perform and supervise chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.

Can you find me a link that might show anybody foolish enough to dive down to the depths of 1,000 feet on SCUBA for a recovery?

SCUBA at those depths even on mostly helium are extremely dangerous and would allow a diver to stay down for only about 3 - 4 minutes and a lot of decompression time on the way up.

TIA

HiLife

11-30-2007, 09:34 AM

Either way, either Natalee's body had to be cut up in pieces or the trap had to be large enough to fit an entire body. The first scenario would leave one h#ll of a bloody mess, the other would require at least 3 people and a boat to toss the thing in the water.

Find me a trap that would neatly fit a body of Natalee's size without too much trouble because J2K had very limited time in which to "murder" Natalee, find a trap of appropriate proportions, find a boat and get to a spot where the water would be deep enough to dump the trap over the side and be guaranteed it wouldn't drift to a more shallow location.

TIA

I admit I don't know enough about crab traps to know all the different sizes they must come in, but surely there must be different sizes, no? IIRC, in the beginning of the case, they said the crab traps there by the Fishermen's huts could fit Natalee's body.

jmo

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 09:35 AM

Can you find me a link that might show anybody foolish enough to dive down to the depths of 1,000 feet on SCUBA?

TIA

I don't know what type of equipment deep water divers utilize.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 09:36 AM

Can you find me a link that might show anybody foolish enough to dive down to the depths of 1,000 feet on SCUBA for a recovery?

TIA
Apparently, the Navy.

From JMO's link (and it has cool underwater bubble sounds, too!)

First Class Diver: First Class Divers perform planning for SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), Closed Circuit, and saturation diving operations on submarine lock-outs, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 1,000 feet. They perform and supervise chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.

jmo

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:53 AM

I admit I don't know enough about crab traps to know all the different sizes they must come in, but surely there must be different sizes, no? IIRC, in the beginning of the case, they said the crab traps there by the Fishermen's huts could fit Natalee's body.

jmo

In the beginning this alleged and suspected "crime" also included gangrape, kidnap and murder.

Still nobody is charged.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:56 AM

Apparently, the Navy.

From JMO's link (and it has cool underwater bubble sounds, too!)

First Class Diver: First Class Divers perform planning for SCUBA, Surface Supplied (Air/Mixed Gas), Closed Circuit, and saturation diving operations on submarine lock-outs, underwater maintenance, propeller changes, hull repair on ships and submarines, and search and salvage operations in depths up to 1,000 feet. They perform and supervise chamber operations and the use of munitions plus mechanical and chemical cutting equipment for salvage, battle damage repair, and underwater construction projects.

jmo

Sustainable for 3 minutes. I don't recall any Navy divers being on the Perseverance. Don't count on the Dutch Marines, they've concluded their searches and Aruba isn't assisting with this search.

IF and that's a big IF they have divers that would go down that far, it would be foolish not to have a decompression chamber onboard. I certainly don't recall seeing one on the Perseverance. You?

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:01 AM

In the beginning this alleged and suspected "crime" also included gangrape, kidnap and murder.

Still nobody is charged.

Okaaaay.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:05 AM

Sustainable for 3 minutes. I don't recall any Navy divers being on the Perseverance. Don't count on the Dutch Marines, they've concluded their searches and Aruba isn't assisting with this search.

IF and that's a big IF they have divers that would go down that far, it would be foolish not to have a decompression chamber onboard. I certainly don't recall seeing one on the Perseverance. You?

So you are the official spokesperson for the Dutch Marines and the Aruban authorities? :confused:

I don't know, but I imagine the Navy would probably know what to do, what equipment to use and how long they could do it. Why would the retrieval have to be immediate? It would have been sitting there at 1000ft for the last 2.5 years. I'm sure they must be doing this one step at a time.

They'll probably cross that bridge of "retrieval" when or if they do find something.

jmo

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:11 AM

So you are the official spokesperson for the Dutch Marines and the Aruban authorities? :confused:

I don't know, but I imagine the Navy would probably know what to do, what equipment to use and how long they could do it. Why would the retrieval have to be immediate? It would have been sitting there at 1000ft for the last 2.5 years. I'm sure they must be doing this one step at a time.

They'll probably cross that bridge of "retrieval" when or if they do find something.

jmo

Links have been posted that show that ALE will not be assisting in any further searches undertaken by anybody other than appointed by them. The Dutch Navy has already concluded it's searches, why would it assist with a private operation?

If retrieval is not "immediate" then SCUBA isn't required is it? There is no doubt in my mind that this trip is a waste of money, though it may bring Dave some peace of mind. Who knows :shrug:

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:17 AM

Links have been posted that show that ALE will not be assisting in any further searches undertaken by anybody other than appointed by them. The Dutch Navy has already concluded it's searches, why would it assist with a private operation?

If retrieval is not "immediate" then SCUBA isn't required is it? There is no doubt in my mind that this trip is a waste of money, though it may bring Dave some peace of mind. Who knows :shrug:

Honestly, this is making no sense. Do you honestly think that if they find something, that the Arubans will not assist? Or that the Dutch will not assist - especially after having sent the F-16s in the beginning, the 21 investigators earlier this year and their clear desire, at present, to resolve this case?

I can't imagine them not helping! Not to mention how awful they would look to the rest of the world and neither their reputation, nor Aruba, could afford this type of bad publicity! I don't care what Aruba has written. They need to jump on any chance they can to look good.

And why wouldn't SCUBA still be needed, even if it's not immediate? If they're the only people to be able to do the 1000ft dive, then they would probably do it, no?

jmo

Grandad

11-30-2007, 10:18 AM

So you are the official spokesperson for the Dutch Marines and the Aruban authorities? :confused:

I don't know, but I imagine the Navy would probably know what to do, what equipment to use and how long they could do it. Why would the retrieval have to be immediate? It would have been sitting there at 1000ft for the last 2.5 years. I'm sure they must be doing this one step at a time.

They'll probably cross that bridge of "retrieval" when or if they do find something.

jmo

They have to find something. The ocean floor is strewn with debris.

It's almost a certainty that the best their equipment can do is locate objects and estimate their size. There's no way they can identify what the objects are, and it's impractical to send a diver down everytime there's a blip on the screen.

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 10:21 AM

He made a fool of himself with his last client. I guess the vandersloots didn't get to see that trial on CTV. That woman will never see the light of day again. LOL
Such a traitor! Hope he gets his in the end as well. To sit there and defend some out of control kid from aruba that killed, imo, one of our young American women, well, there's no words for that kind of sleaze. Maybe he's having problems getting clients here in the States. Gee I wonder why?
How much is paulus paying him??? Is it paulus paying him? Who is paying for the kalpoes attorney's here and in aruba? Who is paying for all of jorans attorney's? I think there's some questions that should be answered. Let's follow the money, shall we?
IMO
IMO

I actually WATCHED Joe T. defend his "last client", and while I thought she was guilty .... he in no way "made a fool of himself".

Why do you call him a "traitor" ?? "You hope he gets his in the end as well". ???? What do you mean by that ??

Goodness, Heyes .... I don't imagine Joe T. is having any problem "getting clients here in the States".
\
I believe you have asked questions before about who is paying the attorneys for these suspects . Should they NOT be represented by attorneys?? Is that what you're saying ?? I would imagine the Kalpoes' attorney here in the US is working on some kind of "contingency basis".

JMO

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:25 AM

They have to find something. The ocean floor is strewn with debris.

It's almost a certainty that the best their equipment can do is locate objects and estimate their size. There's no way they can identify what the objects are, and it's impractical to send a diver down everytime there's a blip on the screen.

This is probably true, but they must have expertise in this area and be able to guess-timate through a process of elimination. We'll have to wait and see.

Since I don't know anything about underwater retrieval, I have a question. If the equipment can make it down there, why can't they lower down something to try to bring the object up? Maybe there won't be a need for divers?

jmo

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 10:25 AM

terrysdoor

11-30-2007, 10:26 AM

I actually WATCHED Joe T. defend his "last client", and while I thought she was guilty .... he in no way "made a fool of himself".

Why do you call him a "traitor" ?? "You hope he gets his in the end as well". ???? What do you mean by that ??

Goodness, Heyes .... I don't imagine Joe T. is having any problem "getting clients here in the States".
\
I believe you have asked questions before about who is paying the attorneys for these suspects . Should they NOT be represented by attorneys?? Is that what you're saying ?? I would imagine the Kalpoes' attorney here in the US is working on some kind of "contingency basis".

JMO

Good morning Fair....... is John Kelly(i think thats his name) still Beth`s lawyer? i haven`t seen any interviews with him but i could have missed them IMO

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:28 AM

joe had that opportunity to "exonerate" joran when joran went to court to be released as a suspect. Where was joe????? Nowhere!
Sounds like alot of hot air. Joe just wants TV time. That's where all the cameras are. IMO
Like I said if they had a problem with Beth, just wait, they are going to LOVE this guy LMAO! LMAO!
Do you think the locals will appreciate dealing with this high and mighty, New York attorney who, when he doesn't like what is said, starts with his annoying, high pitched screeching?
You'll know when he gets there, all the local dogs will start howling! lol

IMO

lol

Joe T. has become the Mark Geragos of this case. He has undermined his own credibility and gives the impression of being full of hot air! "New evidence??" Now? Why didn't he come up with this earlier? *scoff!*

jmo

Grandad

11-30-2007, 10:29 AM

The s/c sonar delivers more than "blips on a screen". IMO. This link shows some sonar underwater images. ( Click on Data Samples)
http://www.marinesonic.com/

Didn't seem to work in the Laci Peterson case, and that body was in shallow water.

ETA Check the image of the crab pot. Note it's in six feet of water.

Other larger items are in 10 to 15 feet of water.

I wouldn't raise my hopes.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:30 AM

The s/c sonar delivers more than "blips on a screen". IMO. This link shows some sonar underwater images. ( Click on Data Samples)
http://www.marinesonic.com/

Wow, very nice images! I was indeed imagining that the equipment had to be sophisticated like this.

jmo

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 10:30 AM

Good morning Fair....... is John Kelly(i think thats his name) still Beth`s lawyer? i haven`t seen any interviews with him but i could have missed them IMO

Good morning, terry .... I, personally, haven't seen JQK give an interview lately. I'm sure he is still Beth's attorney here though. I believe Luke posted a link recently where he had an interview with Greta.

JMO

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:32 AM

Didn't seem to work in the Laci Peterson case, and that body was in shallow water.

That was years ago and I have to imagine this equipment is state of the art and sounds much more sophisticated than the ones used for Laci Peterson. Aren't there other factors to consider as well? Wasn't the Bay murky and muddy? Doesn't it have all kinds of strong currents in that particular area, too?

jmo

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:33 AM

And why wouldn't SCUBA still be needed, even if it's not immediate? If they're the only people to be able to do the 1000ft dive, then they would probably do it, no?

jmo
Only in the eyes of a few people who fail to see that there is no evidence to tie J2K to the disappearance of Natalee does it appear that ALE, KLPD and the Dutch Marines and Air Force have not performed very thorough searches.

Don't count on anybody running for their lifeboats to assist this IMO futile search. At this stage I believe that if anything is found the searchers will have to prove that it might have anything to do with the Natalee disappearance. Millions have been spent and I doubt that Aruba, financially backed by the Netherlands, is willing to spend any more wasted money on this sad case.

There are no credible reports of stolen crab traps. There are no credible reports from Jossy's gardener, and there are no credible reports that the skeeterized tape is the truth. There are indeed no credible reports that the "signed confessions" beth purported to have in her possession are real (since what has been shown is neither signed nor in Dutch).

The few credible pieces of evidence are cellphone locations, internet use, and a hotel key/pass used around 3 a.m. to enter and exit Natalee's room.

Most of the rest of the reports are speculation, including beth's 911 call, her 120 mph drive across state lines and the as yet to be found trooper who stopped and subsequently escorted them.

Ever driven 120 mph? No responsible parent would ever do that on a public road/highway IMO.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:35 AM

Only in the eyes of a few people who fail to see that there is no evidence to tie J2K to the disappearance of Natalee does it appear that ALE, KLPD and the Dutch Marines and Air Force have not performed very thorough searches.

Don't count on anybody running for their lifeboats to assist this IMO futile search. At this stage I believe that if anything is found the searchers will have to prove that it might have anything to do with the Natalee disappearance. Millions have been spent and I doubt that Aruba, financially backed by the Netherlands, is willing to spend any more wasted money on this sad case.

There are no credible reports of stolen crab traps. There are no credible reports from Jossy's gardener, and there are no credible reports that the skeeterized tape is the truth. There are indeed no credible reports that the "signed confessions" beth purported to have in her possession are real (since what has been shown is neither signed nor in Dutch).

The few credible pieces of evidence are cellphone locations, internet use, and a hotel key/pass used around 3 a.m. to enter and exit Natalee's room.

Most of the rest of the reports are speculation, including beth's 911 call, her 120 mph drive across state lines and the as yet to be found trooper who stopped and subsequently escorted them.

Ever driven 120 mph? No responsible parent would ever do that on a public road/highway IMO.

I disagree with your entire post (most of it being rumor). We shall see.

jmo

Heyes

11-30-2007, 10:35 AM

Joe T. has become the Mark Geragos of this case. He has undermined his own credibility and gives the impression of being full of hot air! "New evidence??" Now? Why didn't he come up with this earlier? *scoff!*

jmo

LOL He has become a Mark Geragos. lol lol lol
How embarrassing for him,
But hey at least geragos is licensed to practice law where he claims he has clients. lol
If I was the prosecutor in this case, I would tell joe to talk to jorans real attorney and have HIM call me. :rolleyes:
IMO

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:36 AM

That was years ago and I have to imagine this equipment is state of the art and sounds much more sophisticated than the ones used for Laci Peterson. Aren't there other factors to consider as well? Wasn't the Bay murky and muddy? Doesn't it have all kinds of strong currents in that particular area, too?

jmo

Depends on which area of the Bay.

What do you think 1,000 down looks like?

Grandad

11-30-2007, 10:36 AM

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:39 AM

"New evidence??" Now? Why didn't the prosecutor come up with this earlier?

New prosecutor. New prosecutor without an agenda. Fresh eyes. Maybe even actually read the statements.

There has ALWAYS been tons of material (discrepancies, lies, misinformation, overlooked witnesses, non-statements) to work with. Perhaps it was a matter of finding someone who knew what they were doing.

If I were the VDS, I'd be asking Joe T. some hard questions about his "new evidence."

jmo

Grandad

11-30-2007, 10:41 AM

<snip>

Ever driven 120 mph? No responsible parent would ever do that on a public road/highway IMO.

Nor would any state trooper or highway patrolman in any state allow it.

When Beth first told this story, she established her character, and credibility. It hasn't changed yet.

Grandad

11-30-2007, 10:44 AM

Wow, very nice images! I was indeed imagining that the equipment had to be sophisticated like this.

jmo

Check the depth of water in which those "nice images" were taken.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 10:45 AM

Depends on which area of the Bay.

What do you think 1,000 down looks like?
The waters of the Carribbean are completely different - there is a reason no one says......"You've won a beach resort vacation to the SF Bay!"

jmo

No Nic

11-30-2007, 10:47 AM

<snipped>
Ever driven 120 mph? No responsible parent would ever do that on a public road/highway IMO.

IMO, no responsible parent would enable a sociopath, put him out of the house and let him run amok among the unsuspecting public.

SukiJane

11-30-2007, 11:06 AM

He made a fool of himself with his last client. I guess the vandersloots didn't get to see that trial on CTV. That woman will never see the light of day again. LOL
Such a traitor! Hope he gets his in the end as well. To sit there and defend some out of control kid from aruba that killed, imo, one of our young American women, well, there's no words for that kind of sleaze. Maybe he's having problems getting clients here in the States. Gee I wonder why?
How much is paulus paying him??? Is it paulus paying him? Who is paying for the kalpoes attorney's here and in aruba? Who is paying for all of jorans attorney's? I think there's some questions that should be answered. Let's follow the money, shall we?
IMO
IMO

I wonder if Joe T. will be carrying with him to Aruba the polygraph test results from whenever that was that Joran took a polygraph test he mentioned last week. Does anyone really believe Joran took a test like this, or did I miss something, or is Joe T. lying? I did also hear Joe T. has the 40 minute police car tape. Man, I'd love to see a transcription of that in it's entirety, since I've always believed that what we've seen online was not complete, and there were parts that were missing.

I too would love to follow the money trail!!

jmo

HiLife

11-30-2007, 11:06 AM

IMO, no responsible parent would enable a sociopath, put him out of the house and let him run amok among the unsuspecting public.

DITTO X 1000ft, NN!

(I believe it's that pesky "empathy" problem again.....if my car did 150mph, that is the speed I would go - if it were my daughter!)

jmo

Heyes

11-30-2007, 11:24 AM

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 11:25 AM

Check the depth of water in which those "nice images" were taken.

Seems to me high quality, clear images can be delivered with depth capability of 1000 ft.. JMO
http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0044734.shtml
Lowrance® LCX Series Sonar and Sonar with GPS
The LCX Series delivers high-quality images and stunning clarity using 200kHz 20° or dual 50/200kHz 35°/12° transducers with depth capability of 1,000 ft.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 11:27 AM

I wonder if Joe T. will be carrying with him to Aruba the polygraph test results from whenever that was that Joran took a polygraph test he mentioned last week. Does anyone really believe Joran took a test like this, or did I miss something, or is Joe T. lying? I did also hear Joe T. has the 40 minute police car tape. Man, I'd love to see a transcription of that in it's entirety, since I've always believed that what we've seen online was not complete, and there were parts that were missing.

I too would love to follow the money trail!!

jmo
I doubt he wants to show that, Didn't greta ask him for it? Didn't he try to avoid any commitment? yeah joe. cough it up buddy!
Me thinks joe is full of ..........hot aruban wind
imo

Heyes

11-30-2007, 11:28 AM

Now why do I get the feeling that certain people don't want Natalee found?
IMO

SukiJane

11-30-2007, 11:32 AM

Nor would any state trooper or highway patrolman in any state allow it.

When Beth first told this story, she established her character, and credibility. It hasn't changed yet.

No one is allowed to drive 120 mph on a public road or highway, but that doesn't mean people don't do it. Heck just driving to work people pass me going over 100 mph all the time.

I'm not really understanding why it's so unbelievable to be going that speed. I live in a very large state with miles and miles of open road in all directions. Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, are all smaller states but much less populated with miles and miles of open road. It may not be a responsible thing to do, but I could very well see myself driving that speed, that is if my vehicle would even go that speed, after getting a call that my prompt child wasn't with her group to catch a flight back home from another country!

jmo

SukiJane

11-30-2007, 11:41 AM

IMO, no responsible parent would enable a sociopath, put him out of the house and let him run amok among the unsuspecting public.

Anita must have known her son might have been a danger to society, because didn't she mention in one of her interviews, that Natalee should have used the buddy system.

jmo

SukiJane

11-30-2007, 11:48 AM

I doubt he wants to show that, Didn't greta ask him for it? Didn't he try to avoid any commitment? yeah joe. cough it up buddy!
Me thinks joe is full of ..........hot aruban wind
imo

Hot Air, no doubt. I also believe he was lying when he said Joran had 14 pages of evidence. ("he has fourteen, we win"---Joe T.) Are Joran's lawyers in Aruba actually sharing anything with Joe? I really don't think Joe T., would be very welcomed in Aruba, since he did refer to ALE as the keystone cops.

jmo

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 11:56 AM

I disagree as well. rumors and wishful thinking.
Even bringing up how fast Beth drove....lol lol lol This is relevant to the suspects and Natalee's being killed by their hands how?
IMO

Well Heyes .... I would suggest you making the point you think Joe T. is a "traitor" doesn't have much to do with Natalee's disappearance either. Not to mention your subtlety, by saying "you hope Joe T. gets his in the end".

It has still to be proven that "Natalee was killed by their hands".

I'm patiently waiting ....

JMO

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 11:57 AM

Now why do I get the feeling that certain people don't want Natalee found?
IMO

That is just a ridiculous statement to post, Heyes ....

JMO

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 12:01 PM

Anita must have known her son might have been a danger to society, because didn't she mention in one of her interviews, that Natalee should have used the buddy system.

jmo

Aw come on, Suki .... Natalee SHOULD have used the buddy system. Isn't that what Beth teaches now, while telling "Natalee's story" ??

JMO

No Nic

11-30-2007, 12:05 PM

Aw come on, Suki .... Natalee SHOULD have used the buddy system. Isn't that what Beth teaches now, while telling "Natalee's story" ??

JMO

Of, course Natalee SHOULD have used the buddy system, no one is saying that she shouldn't have. BUT....for the mother of the one last to be seen with her to say it is.......well, just strange. One would think that Anita would have felt Natalee would be perfectly fine in the company of her little sporter and no need for a buddy.

imo

Grandad

11-30-2007, 12:54 PM

Seems to me high quality, clear images can be delivered with depth capability of 1000 ft.. JMO
http://www.cabelas.com/spodw-1/0044734.shtml
Lowrance® LCX Series Sonar and Sonar with GPS
The LCX Series delivers high-quality images and stunning clarity using 200kHz 20° or dual 50/200kHz 35°/12° transducers with depth capability of 1,000 ft.

Oh yeah, they're going to find a body in 1000 feet of water with a $2,000.00 sonar device. Why then, did they say they're using equipment which cost $500,000.00?

I will vouch for the brand in your link, though. I have one of their GPS units in my car, and I often shop at one of the branches of the store the link is to. I'm wearing a pair of their boots as I type.

I didn't mention the names because I don't want to be accused of posting spam.

Grandad

11-30-2007, 12:56 PM

Now why do I get the feeling that certain people don't want Natalee found?
IMO

Are you referring to those people whose fundraising efforts it would curtail?

HiLife

11-30-2007, 12:58 PM

Now why do I get the feeling that certain people don't want Natalee found?
IMO

I'm getting this same impression, Heyes!

I'm a half-full kind of person, happy and optimistic (see my nic, avatar and location! lol!) - and this is in spite of the many trials and tribulations and deep grief I have gone/am going through in my life. I pray Natalee will be found, as it is unimaginable to me the torture her family is going through with the not knowing.

jmo

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 01:54 PM

Oh yeah, they're going to find a body in 1000 feet of water with a $2,000.00 sonar device. Why then, did they say they're using equipment which cost $500,000.00?

I didn't suggest the example I linked was the exact same model the Perseverance is outfitted with. I think the images they can obtain ( with alleged half-million dollar sonar equipment) are more than blips on a screen JMO.

Grandad

11-30-2007, 02:15 PM

I didn't suggest the example I linked was the exact same model the Perseverance is outfitted with. I think the images they can obtain ( with alleged half-million dollar sonar equipment) are more than blips on a screen JMO.

At the same store that has the sonar units you can get one of these boats
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0017283010825a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=inflatable+boat&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=inflatable+boat&noImage=0, and one of these motors http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0036474018094a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=outboard+motor&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=outboard+motor&noImage=0 .

Add the sonar unit and for under $4,000.00 and a couple hours of your time you can solve the case, all with the convenience of one stop shopping.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 02:27 PM

I didn't suggest the example I linked was the exact same model the Perseverance is outfitted with. I think the images they can obtain ( with alleged half-million dollar sonar equipment) are more than blips on a screen JMO.

Can't say you didn't make every effort to have a mature conversation, JMO. If there is no respect for loss of life, then we cannot expect much respect for anything else.

Thanks for your research. :read:

Grandad

11-30-2007, 02:40 PM

Can't say you didn't make every effort to have a mature conversation, JMO. If there is no respect for loss of life, then we cannot expect much respect for anything else.

Thanks for your research. :read:

Sorry, can't agree with anything you said.

Lot of drama, but it lacks substance.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 03:03 PM

Sorry, can't agree with anything you said.

Lot of drama, but it lacks substance.

No surprises here.

Grandad

11-30-2007, 03:15 PM

No surprises, here.

No surprise that your posts are all drama without any substance?

Gee, we agree.

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 03:17 PM

I'm getting this same impression, Heyes!

I'm a half-full kind of person, happy and optimistic (see my nic, avatar and location! lol!) - and this is in spite of the many trials and tribulations and deep grief I have gone/am going through in my life. I pray Natalee will be found, as it is unimaginable to me the torture her family is going through with the not knowing.

jmo

Why are you getting that impression, HiLife ?? Surely not because some posters have a different opinion, or question certain actions in this case. Speaking for myself, I still have many questions in this case .... knowing what happened to Natalee is right at the top of that list. Yes .... I want her to be found.

Incidentally, you have my sympathy for any deep grief you are going through.

JMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 03:28 PM

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 03:30 PM

Cousin (http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/news/stories/2007/11/30/11302007wacrachelallison.html?imw=Y)

http://img.coxnewsweb.com/C/01/00/12/image_6212001.jpg

By the time they could walk, cousins Natalee Holloway (left) and Rachel Allison already were fast friends.

Not a day goes by that Rachel Allison doesn’t think of her cousin. And cry.

Nearly 2 1/2 years later, it’s still painful for the Baylor University junior basketball player even to talk about the mysterious disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

HiLife

11-30-2007, 03:30 PM

Why are you getting that impression, HiLife ?? Surely not because some posters have a different opinion, or question certain actions in this case. Speaking for myself, I still have many questions in this case .... knowing what happened to Natalee is right at the top of that list. Yes .... I want her to be found.

Incidentally, you have my sympathy for any deep grief you are going through.

JMO

I hope you didn't think I meant you at all, FM, and I don't have a problem with different opinions. It is the tone and attitude in the posts.

(thanks for the kind words)

Grandad

11-30-2007, 03:50 PM

No link yet, but I just heard on TV the Kalpoes have been released.

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 03:51 PM

Kalpoe Brothers released.

MSNBC

I think that is what I heard but there is a hostage situation.

MOO

terrysdoor

11-30-2007, 03:51 PM

No link yet, but I just heard on TV the Kalpoes have been released.

well they still be suspects or are they free to do what they want? IMO

Grandad

11-30-2007, 04:00 PM

well they still be suspects or are they free to do what they want? IMO

What I heard was pretty much what I posted. Haven't found a more detailed report yet.

As Luke says, the hostage situation is getting all the coverage.

Can you hear it?

"They were secretly released while everyone's attention was focused on the hostages."

terrysdoor

11-30-2007, 04:02 PM

What I heard was pretty much what I posted. Haven't found a more detailed report yet.

As Luke says, the hostage situation is getting all the coverage.

Can you hear it?

"They were secretly released while everyone's attention was focused on the hostages."

CNN just said news conference at 4:30 IMO

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 04:02 PM

Greta reporting...

Beth just landed in Aruba.

Kalpoe brothers to be released.

Breaking news.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 04:06 PM

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 04:18 PM

Perhaps the judge thought the original investigators were right.

MOO

terrysdoor

11-30-2007, 04:21 PM

Perhaps the judge thought the original investigators were right.

MOO

I wonder if we will find out what the "new evidence" was IMO

Grandad

11-30-2007, 04:21 PM

Grandad

11-30-2007, 04:25 PM

I wonder if we will find out what the "new evidence" was IMO

It couldn't have been much. The judge didn't buy it.

I got my info from CNN's Headline News, but it must be inaccurate because they said the "new evidence" was presented to the judge for the first time today, and all the knowledgeable posters know the arrests were allowed because the judge had seen the evidence and agreed it was new.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 04:51 PM

As the lilting sounds of happy dancing come to an end, cries of "judicial corruption" and "cover up" rise in the background.

Yup, well at least joran is still in there for a couple of more days.
aruba just doesn't get it.
I do want to know if this judge is buddies with paulus though. I will never trust the people in charge on that island. Not after witnessing what they have done.
No matter, this was a happy surprise for a week or two.
I still have happy dancing ahead while OJ is on trial and if they nab this peterson dude, happy dances continue. Gosh I hate murderers! lol
So does this mean the Dr. Phil suit is on???? I hope so, now maybe the kalpoes attorney can release the discovery asked of him.
I really didn't even expect this much.
Poor Beth and Dave, another mind "game" ( I have another word, but.....)
Compliments of aruba!
Those aruban "officials" are just plain cruel. The new prosecutor? Evil to pull this, just evil.He better have something of substance to say. Who wants to bet we don't hear from him?
IMO!!!

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 05:02 PM

AP (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g03xmlbMM0BjGFGrLokyvroCO6FwD8T888001)

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) — Two brothers re-arrested last week as suspects in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway will be released from jail, a prosecutor said Friday.

The two brothers, Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, will be released by Saturday, prosecutor Dop Kruimel said.

"We have three days to launch an appeal, but we have to think about it," Kruimel said.

The prosecutor corrected a statement made earlier by Vinda de Sousa, an attorney for Dave Holloway, Natalee's father, who said they had already been released due to lack of evidence.

Their release will mark the third time that the brothers have been arrested and later released in the case. Both have denied having any role in her disappearance.

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 05:08 PM

Amazing, So this prosecutor is as big a fool as the last one? Why would anyone do this to themselves? What is wrong with these people?
Back to boycotting aruba I guess, (sheesh they really don't get it), unless..... the kalpoes did just drop joran off somewhere and really don't know what he did with Natalee? hmmmmm.
IMO

Heyes .... How quickly you change your mind !!

What if there really IS no NEW evidence ?? What if there IS no evidence that Joran et al killed Natalee ??

You posted something earlier .... which I told you was just a ridiculous statement. You posted something about how you feel some people just don't want Natalee found. That would be like me saying to you .... you don't want resolution to this case UNLESS it involves Joran and the Kalpoe Brothers.

JMO

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 05:11 PM

I wonder how Joran is feeling knowing the brothers will be released? I imagine ALE is telling Joran that the brothers said he did it.

MOO

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 05:16 PM

Yup, well at least joran is still in there for a couple of more days.
aruba just doesn't get it.
I do want to know if this judge is buddies with paulus though. I will never trust the people in charge on that island. Not after witnessing what they have done.
No matter, this was a happy surprise for a week or two.
I still have happy dancing ahead while OJ is on trial and if they nab this peterson dude, happy dances continue. Gosh I hate murderers! lol
So does this mean the Dr. Phil suit is on???? I hope so, now maybe the kalpoes attorney can release the discovery asked of him.
I really didn't even expect this much.
Poor Beth and Dave, another mind "game" ( I have another word, but.....)
Compliments of aruba!
Those aruban "officials" are just plain cruel. The new prosecutor? Evil to pull this, just evil.He better have something of substance to say. Who wants to bet we don't hear from him?
IMO!!!

It seems .... unless it fits into your tidy world, Heyes ((that being that Joran et al killed Natalee)), you will just not be happy, even if there IS some resolution.

I never had the idea the Dr. Phil suit was "off". Did you think it was ??

You are now calling Hans Mos "evil" ?? You don't even know what his "new evidence" was or is, or even if he HAS new evidence !!

JMO

Luke Davis

11-30-2007, 05:21 PM

FOX News reporting restrictions have been removed for Joran. He can have books, tv, exercise, etc. Not sure about visitation yet.

MOO

Grandad

11-30-2007, 05:37 PM

Heyes .... How quickly you change your mind !!

What if there really IS no NEW evidence ?? What if there IS no evidence that Joran et al killed Natalee ??

<snip>

Bite your tongue!

Heyes

11-30-2007, 05:40 PM

Heyes .... How quickly you change your mind !!

What if there really IS no NEW evidence ?? What if there IS no evidence that Joran et al killed Natalee ??

You posted something earlier .... which I told you was just a ridiculous statement. You posted something about how you feel some people just don't want Natalee found. That would be like me saying to you .... you don't want resolution to this case UNLESS it involves Joran and the Kalpoe Brothers.

JMO

Would you like me to list your ridiculous statements? No? Why the insult?
I think there are some who don't want Natalee found. Why is that ridiculous?
Who knows what's happening on aruba? That place is completely corrupt IMO. I was hoping this new prosecutor had some brains and guts. Unlike the last one. IMO
Maybe he does? Maybe he no longer actually needs the kalpoes. maybe their involvement in this is not as deep as jorans and they get to be released. who knows? I have a hard time believing that this prosecutor gets on TV, let's the world know that he believes Natalee was killed at the hands of these suspects and now they're being released. Who is this guy and does he give a rats patootie about aruba or the future of his career?
Somebody went through a lot of trouble to make sure Natalee isn't found, why is it soooo hard to fathom that perhaps that same somebody hopes she is never found? IMO
How do you feel about this prosecutor and his ability to extend Beth and Daves pain yet one more time? Don't you find that less than nice? Do you think he has a strategic plan or is he like joe T, looking for his 15 min. of fame?
Heck I just don't know what to think at this point. :shrug: Evil or good?

Heyes

11-30-2007, 05:46 PM

It seems .... unless it fits into your tidy world, Heyes ((that being that Joran et al killed Natalee)), you will just not be happy, even if there IS some resolution.

I never had the idea the Dr. Phil suit was "off". Did you think it was ??

You are now calling Hans Mos "evil" ?? You don't even know what his "new evidence" was or is, or even if he HAS new evidence !!

JMO
Hey I'm open here. Maybe Mos is a great guy but what the heck was this all about? Why drag everyone through all of this again if this wasn't rock solid?
IF there is a resolution other than joran then bring it on. I don't think so though. In the 2+ years Natalee has been missing there has not been one piece of evidence that lead away from joran. Not one.
IF his evidence was weak, IF, and he knew it. IF this was just a "act of desperation" that posters have said, then, his actions are evil. To do that to Natalee's family one more time is wrong. I'm sure you agree.
I am hoping this guy has more in his back pocket. I am hoping that he has a plan and joran is in jail because of proof and he stays there. I want a trial!
All my opinion.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 05:58 PM

Hey I'm open here. Maybe Mos is a great guy but what the heck was this all about? Why drag everyone through all of this again if this wasn't rock solid?

IIRC I said it was a last desperate attempt and I was pretty much laughed off this board. What do you think it was?

When it was said... what evidence and why not charge them, I remember some saying that there MUST be evidence because the boys were back in jail.

Oh well... can't say you weren't forewarned. :shrug:

Grandad

11-30-2007, 06:30 PM

IIRC I said it was a last desperate attempt and I was pretty much laughed off this board. What do you think it was?

When it was said... what evidence and why not charge them, I remember some saying that there MUST be evidence because the boys were back in jail.

Oh well... can't say you weren't forewarned. :shrug:

I doubt you'll get any responses from the people you're talking to. My guess is the board will be pretty quiet for awhile.

Do you know if Beth stayed in Aruba, or did she go back to the U.S. on the turn around flight?

Heyes

11-30-2007, 06:41 PM

IIRC I said it was a last desperate attempt and I was pretty much laughed off this board. What do you think it was?

When it was said... what evidence and why not charge them, I remember some saying that there MUST be evidence because the boys were back in jail.

Oh well... can't say you weren't forewarned. :shrug:

I have NO idea what that was.:shrug:
I just can't imagine a prosecutor pulling a stunt like this. It boggles the mind. I have to believe he has more up his sleeve. Perhaps it's just joran he's after. I just don't know.
Oh and they are not boys! They are grown men who have behaved badly. I still think they all should do more time for at least obstruction of justice. That has been proven.
imo

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 06:45 PM

I have NO idea what that was.:shrug:
I just can't imagine a prosecutor pulling a stunt like this. It boggles the mind. I have to believe he has more up his sleeve. Perhaps it's just joran he's after. I just don't know.
Oh and they are not boys! They are grown men who have behaved badly. I still think they all should do more time for at least obstruction of justice. That has been proven.
imo

Joran is younger than Natalee, and she was called a baby.

That you can't imagine the "prosecutor pulling a stunt like this" is because you're still not familiar with the Dutch and Aruban legal system. :shrug:

The prosecutor may have another stunt up his sleeve, it'd have to be of a lesser suspicion than the current "manslaughter" however.

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 06:55 PM

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 07:01 PM

This doesn't bode well for Joran van der Sloot, IMO.

Why do you say that?

ortiga

11-30-2007, 07:12 PM

Joran is younger than Natalee, and she was called a baby.

That you can't imagine the "prosecutor pulling a stunt like this" is because you're still not familiar with the Dutch and Aruban legal system. :shrug:

The prosecutor may have another stunt up his sleeve, it'd have to be of a lesser suspicion than the current "manslaughter" however.

Assuming that Joran is also released and there is no appeal by the prosecutor, this whole exercise can be seen to be in the boys' long term interests because it completely did away with the more serious suspicions, ie rape, kidnapping, murder.

IMO

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 07:20 PM

Why do you say that?

Because it is my opinion. I think it's highly likely the evidence shows Joran killed Natalee Holloway, JMO.

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 07:20 PM

Assuming that Joran is also released and there is no appeal by the prosecutor, this whole exercise can be seen to be in the boys' long term interests because it completely did away with the more serious suspicions, ie rape, kidnapping, murder.

IMO

It didn't do away with prior suspicions, manslaughter was just added to the list, IMO.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 07:23 PM

Because it is my opinion. I think it's highly likely the evidence shows Joran killed Natalee Holloway, JMO.

LOL okay. We'll just have to wait until December 7 and see if the judge agrees with your opinion.

ortiga

11-30-2007, 07:23 PM

It didn't do away with prior suspicions, manslaughter was just added to the list, IMO.

But IMO it did do away with prior suspicions.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 07:36 PM

Prosecutors have said they have evidence that Holloway is dead, and they maintained Friday that the suspects were involved despite the judge's ruling.

"The new evidence together with the existing evidence in the case file produced serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting of covering up the traces of a crime committed or the disposing of the corpse," according to the statement from the prosecutors' office.

But the judge ruled in the closed-door session that the evidence was not strong enough to warrant the suspects' continued detention.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071130/D8T89K5O0.html

Heyes

11-30-2007, 07:39 PM

It didn't do away with prior suspicions, manslaughter was just added to the list, IMO.
I'm reading something about the judges statement saying something about the kalpoes and destroying evidence and hiding a corpse. I have no idea but the general thought is that they didn't have enough evidence to show vm and the suspicion of destroying the evidence and hiding the body do not warrant them being held until charges or trial or the whole thing is dismissed. I have no idea what is going on at this point. We need more info.

IMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 07:46 PM

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 07:52 PM

Oh so they're guilty....... just not as guilty as joran? I get it!
This might not be as bad as I thought!
IMO

I don't think that's what the article says. The part I took out, which I'm sure you read, states that the Judge has concluded that the evidence was not strong enough to warrant the suspects' continued detention.

If there was any evidence of a crime, they would have been kept in jail, as there is no such thing as bail. The Prosecutor can claim whatever he wishes, the question is "can he back it up". It seems he can't.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Chocoholic View Post
Prosecutors have said they have evidence that Holloway is dead, and they maintained Friday that the suspects were involved despite the judge's ruling.

"The new evidence together with the existing evidence in the case file produced serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting of covering up the traces of a crime committed or the disposing of the corpse," according to the statement from the prosecutors' office.

But the judge ruled in the closed-door session that the evidence was not strong enough to warrant the suspects' continued detention.

I don't think that's what the article says. The part I took out, which I'm sure you read, states that the Judge has concluded that the evidence was not strong enough to warrant the suspects' continued detention.

If there was any evidence of a crime, they would have been kept in jail, as there is no such thing as bail. The Prosecutor can claim whatever he wishes, the question is "can he back it up". It seems he can't.

The judge reasoned Friday that "the new evidence, together with the existing evidence in this case, produce serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting, of covering up the traces of a crime committed or of the disposing of a corpse," prosecutors said.

But people accused of those crimes do not qualify for pretrial detention under Aruban law, Mos told reporters. He noted that on Monday, the same judge approved van der Sloot's continuing detention based on the same evidence.

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention.
So basically They covered up jorans crime and helped dispose of Natalee's body. Just not enough to warrant being held for voluntary manslaughter. Looks like JMO is right. This doesn't bode well for joran.
IMO!

HiLife

11-30-2007, 08:02 PM

I wonder how Joran is feeling knowing the brothers will be released? I imagine ALE is telling Joran that the brothers said he did it.

MOO

I'm thinking along these lines, too, Luke.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 08:03 PM

HiLife

11-30-2007, 08:09 PM

Because it is my opinion. I think it's highly likely the evidence shows Joran killed Natalee Holloway, JMO.

It didn't do away with prior suspicions, manslaughter was just added to the list, IMO.

1) I agree. It doesn't look good for Joran. Sounds like the onus is on him.

2) I agree. I think the other suspicions are still there, they just didn't have enough hard evidence to prove it. I've said before, manslaughter will keep Joran in jail for a while - and that's just fine, if he (and I think he did) did it.

jmo

HiLife

11-30-2007, 08:12 PM

lol it just dawned on me.
Covering up a crime of manslaughter. hiding the body. are not serious enough charges/suspicions to hold someone in jail in aruba. Oh my! No wonder their crime rate is so low. lol lol
Who would want to visit this place now? The more we hear the less I would want my dog to stay there. Unbelievable.
So the kalpoes covered up and hid a body. That leaves joran with voluntary manslaughter. This just got more interesting.
IMO!

This is exactly what I am thinking, Heyes.

Just WHAT does it take to be held accountable in Aruba? What kind of crime? I think THEY need a videotape!

You're right, their moribund tourism industry will be hit with yet another wave of empty rooms and beach cams.

jmo

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 08:16 PM

Hey I'm open here. Maybe Mos is a great guy but what the heck was this all about? Why drag everyone through all of this again if this wasn't rock solid?
IF there is a resolution other than joran then bring it on. I don't think so though. In the 2+ years Natalee has been missing there has not been one piece of evidence that lead away from joran. Not one.
IF his evidence was weak, IF, and he knew it. IF this was just a "act of desperation" that posters have said, then, his actions are evil. To do that to Natalee's family one more time is wrong. I'm sure you agree.
I am hoping this guy has more in his back pocket. I am hoping that he has a plan and joran is in jail because of proof and he stays there. I want a trial!
All my opinion.

Heyes .... I said as much in the beginning. Why didn't he CHARGE them IF the "new evidence" he had was so incriminating ??

What solid evidence HAVE they found in the past years?? You say there is not one piece of evidence that leads AWAY from Joran. What IS that evidence, that proves he killed her ??

You have this mindset that Joran is guilty .... you have posted in the past that he kidnapped, raped and murdered her.

For the past few days I have been WAITING to see what this NEW evidence is. A Judge seems to feel it is not enough to detain the Kalpoes.

JMO

HiLife

11-30-2007, 08:21 PM

<snipped>

But people accused of those crimes do not qualify for pretrial detention under Aruban law, Mos told reporters. He noted that on Monday, the same judge approved van der Sloot's continuing detention based on the same evidence.

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention.

So basically They covered up jorans crime and helped dispose of Natalee's body. Just not enough to warrant being held for voluntary manslaughter. Looks like JMO is right. This doesn't bode well for joran.
IMO!

This is most interesting! The SAME evidence was strong enough for Joran but not strong enough for the Kalpoes.

jmo

HiLife

11-30-2007, 08:22 PM

<snipped>

For the past few days I have been WAITING to see what this NEW evidence is. A Judge seems to feel it is not enough to detain the Kalpoes.

JMO

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention.

---------------

But don't you find it interesting that the very SAME evidence wasn't strong enough for the Kalpoes' detention, yet it was strong enough to keep Joran jailed? I'm verrrry curious!

jmo

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 08:23 PM

her.

For the past few days I have been WAITING to see what this NEW evidence is. A Judge seems to feel it is not enough to detain the Kalpoes.

JMO

The judge ruled it was not sufficient to PROLONG the detention of the Kalpoes, but it was obviously sufficient to prolong Joran van der Sloot's detention.

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 08:32 PM

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention.

---------------

But don't you find it interesting that the very SAME evidence wasn't strong enough for the Kalpoes' detention, yet it was strong enough to keep Joran jailed? I'm verrrry curious!

jmo

As I said .... I have been waiting patiently to see what happens here. I don't know what "evidence" he HAD. I don't believe any of us do at this point.

All I know is .... the Prosecutor was a "HERO" yesterday, and is "EVIL" today.
:shrug:

JMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 08:40 PM

Heyes .... I said as much in the beginning. Why didn't he CHARGE them IF the "new evidence" he had was so incriminating ??

What solid evidence HAVE they found in the past years?? You say there is not one piece of evidence that leads AWAY from Joran. What IS that evidence, that proves he killed her ??

You have this mindset that Joran is guilty .... you have posted in the past that he kidnapped, raped and murdered her.

For the past few days I have been WAITING to see what this NEW evidence is. A Judge seems to feel it is not enough to detain the Kalpoes.

JMO
I don't know what evidence they claim they have. It is keeping joran locked up for now. From what I gather, the kalpoes are accessories to the crime, so their detention is less than the VM they were arrested for. So they get to go.
However this is what makes it look bad for joran. That only leaves him as the one who actually caused her death.
Also this is not a preconceived mindset. I believe after all we have witnessed that he is the most likely, the one who has holes in the holes of his lies. He needs a trial! Joran is IMO guilty of harming Natalee and somehow disposed of her body either with only the help from the kalpoes or possibly others.
What is so wrong in bringing joran to trial and finding out what the heck happened? Why at this point wouldn't just about everyone welcome this? :shrug:
Luke I know ya hear me! We need a couple of trials regarding this case.

AND Those three suspects NEED, imo, at the very least, to do some time for their obstructing justice. What they did should be punished even in aruba.
IMO

IMO

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 08:48 PM

I don't know what evidence they claim they have. It is keeping joran locked up for now. From what I gather, the kalpoes are accessories to the crime, so their detention is less than the VM they were arrested for. So they get to go.
However this is what makes it look bad for joran. That only leaves him as the one who actually caused her death.
Also this is not a preconceived mindset. I believe after all we have witnessed that he is the most likely, the one who has holes in the holes of his lies. He needs a trial! Joran is IMO guilty of harming Natalee and somehow disposed of her body either with only the help from the kalpoes or possibly others.
What is so wrong in bringing joran to trial and finding out what the heck happened? Why at this point wouldn't just about everyone welcome this? :shrug:
Luke I know ya hear me! We need a couple of trials regarding this case.

AND Those three suspects NEED, imo, at the very least, to do some time for their obstructing justice. What they did should be punished even in aruba.
IMO

IMO

You ask .... "what is so wrong with bringing Joran to trial and finding out what happened". I've always had the idea one can't be charged with a crime and brought to trial without evidence. Are you basing how you feel on the fact Joran was the last one KNOWN to be with Natalee, and the undeniable fact he lied ?? We have a whole host of suspects in this case .... do you know if THEY lied ?? Do you know if THEY answered questions, or refused to answer questions ??

JMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 08:53 PM

As I said .... I have been waiting patiently to see what happens here. I don't know what "evidence" he HAD. I don't believe any of us do at this point.

All I know is .... the Prosecutor was a "HERO" yesterday, and is "EVIL" today.
:shrug:

JMO
None of us KNOW
but, what do you think about this?
Evidently, at least my take on it is, the kalpoes evidence doesn't reach the level of voluntary manslaughter. only destroying evidence and hiding the body.
joran's, according to the prosecutor and judge, evidence does reach the level for voluntary manslaughter and he is detained another 8 days.
What do you think this evidence is? Do you think it's nothing? Do you think it's something solid enough that joran was detained and the judge feels that the kalpoes are accessories to a crime?
Do you feel this prosecutor is a loon or a straight shooter?
all my opinion

No Nic

11-30-2007, 08:57 PM

As I said .... I have been waiting patiently to see what happens here. I don't know what "evidence" he HAD. I don't believe any of us do at this point.

All I know is .... the Prosecutor was a "HERO" yesterday, and is "EVIL" today.
:shrug:

JMO

I wouldn't call him a "HERO" if he successfully prosecutes this case and I wouldn't call him "EVIL" if he doesn't prosecute this case. He has a duty to bring justice to the victim of a crime and prosecute and convict those responsible, it's his job. It is evident that he believes he has evidence in this case. Whether he will be successful or not remains to be seen.

If the Dutch investigators were *invited* by the ALE when they 1st realized they were over their heads (if this was not a DELIBERATE cover-up), I believe there would be no DOUBT who the victim is and who the perpetrator(s) are. Sadly, much was lost/destroyed in the very beginning and there will be no recovery of that evidence.

imo

Heyes

11-30-2007, 09:00 PM

You ask .... "what is so wrong with bringing Joran to trial and finding out what happened". I've always had the idea one can't be charged with a crime and brought to trial without evidence. Are you basing how you feel on the fact Joran was the last one KNOWN to be with Natalee, and the undeniable fact he lied ?? We have a whole host of suspects in this case .... do you know if THEY lied ?? Do you know if THEY answered questions, or refused to answer questions ??

JMO

I didn't trust the first team. They were nuts. IMO
I have no idea who this prosecutor has talked to in this case.
Do you feel joran should be punished for the least of the allegations, one that has been proven. obstruction of justice?
Are you saying there is NO evidence? That must mean to you this prosecutor and judge are wrong? Are you saying this prosecutor is lying?
I thought the last team was insane or corrupt, what do you think of Mos and his team?
IMO
IMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 09:05 PM

I wouldn't call him a "HERO" if he successfully prosecutes this case and I wouldn't call him "EVIL" if he doesn't prosecute this case. He has a duty to bring justice to the victim of a crime and prosecute and convict those responsible, it's his job. It is evident that he believes he has evidence in this case. Whether he will be successful or not remains to be seen.

If the Dutch investigators were *invited* by the ALE when they 1st realized they were over their heads (if this was not a DELIBERATE cover-up), I believe there would be no DOUBT who the victim is and who the perpetrator(s) are. Sadly, much was lost/destroyed in the very beginning and there will be no recovery of that evidence.

imo

No, not a hero, I just want to see someone do their job for once down there. When the news of the kalpoes release first broke I said that if he, (Mos), dragged Beth and Dave through this again and has nothing, then that is EVIL! It wasn't about being a hero yesterday or evil today. lol
Drama.
imo

No Nic

11-30-2007, 09:13 PM

No, not a hero, I just want to see someone do their job for once down there. When the news of the kalpoes release first broke I said that if he, (Mos), dragged Beth and Dave through this again and has nothing, then that is EVIL! It wasn't about being a hero yesterday or evil today. lol
Drama.
imo

It may be to late for the job to be done, Heyes. But I will give Mos a lot of credit for trying. I only hope that one way or the other we hear what evidence he is talking about at this time.

Since this island relies on tourism for their survival, the public has the right to know the truth about this evidence so they can have all the information available when deciding to vacation there, no more sugar coating their crime/murder statistics.

imo

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 09:17 PM

None of us KNOW
but, what do you think about this?
Evidently, at least my take on it is, the kalpoes evidence doesn't reach the level of voluntary manslaughter. only destroying evidence and hiding the body.
joran's, according to the prosecutor and judge, evidence does reach the level for voluntary manslaughter and he is detained another 8 days.
What do you think this evidence is? Do you think it's nothing? Do you think it's something solid enough that joran was detained and the judge feels that the kalpoes are accessories to a crime?
Do you feel this prosecutor is a loon or a straight shooter?
all my opinion

LOL Heyes, I'm not sure you want to know what I think .... but I'll tell you ;) .

I think this is/was ((as some posters opined on a few messageboards)), a "last-ditch effort", if you will, to interrogate the suspects who were last known to have been with Natalee. My feeling has always been .... IF this new evidence was incriminating enough .... why weren't they CHARGED with voluntary manslaughter ??

I believe the Judge feels there just wasn't enough evidence to prolong the Kalpoes' detention. Will he feel differently about Joran ?? I don't know .... we will have to wait to see what happens.

I don't feel one way or the other about the Prosecutor, Heyes. He obviously has a job to do .... the only thing I personally wouldn't want to see, would be Joran et al "railroaded" IF .... they haven't committed any crime.

JMO

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:38 PM

So basically They covered up jorans crime and helped dispose of Natalee's body. Just not enough to warrant being held for voluntary manslaughter. Looks like JMO is right. This doesn't bode well for joran.
IMO!

If there was enough "new evidence" they would still be there.

I know y'all were doing the happy dance a few days ago. It'll only be another week until the Judge hears Joran's case. I can almost guarantee that he too will be released.

How's the happy dance coming?

If the DA decides to take the 3 in on suspicion of assault (though I have no idea how he'd pull that off), will you be happy then? Face it, there is no evidence, not a shred and there hasn't been since IMO Natalee decided to leave Aruba, and yes IMO of her own free will.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:41 PM

The judge ruled it was not sufficient to PROLONG the detention of the Kalpoes, but it was obviously sufficient to prolong Joran van der Sloot's detention.

Really? Was Joran's case heard today?

No. The technicalities are too difficult to explain on this board, however I'll do this once, and once only.

The judge in the NL decided that Joran could be legally held, up to 8 days. Joran was transported to Aruba, another judge decided the same. It has absolutely nothing to do with having more evidence or Joran obviously being involved in any crime. :D

December 7, mark the calendar.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:43 PM

fairmaiden

11-30-2007, 09:48 PM

Hey the only thing we "know" for certain is that the SGs are innocent, because beth said so.

.... And, one of THEM is still a suspect .... ;)

JMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 09:51 PM

It may be to late for the job to be done, Heyes. But I will give Mos a lot of credit for trying. I only hope that one way or the other we hear what evidence he is talking about at this time.

Since this island relies on tourism for their survival, the public has the right to know the truth about this evidence so they can have all the information available when deciding to vacation there, no more sugar coating their crime/murder statistics.

imo
I'm afraid that the 10 day delay that the ALE gifted V2K2 with is what blew this investigation from the get go. Sad. If this prosecutor is there for justice, then I'm happy but I am a bit gun shy of anything that comes out of that place. If these guys walk again, with all the fanfare and the arrests. aruba will be lucky to fill up their rooms for years to come. I'm hoping that this Mos guy really does have a plan of action and gets the job done.
IMO

Heyes

11-30-2007, 09:53 PM

Hey the only thing we "know" for certain is that the SGs are innocent, because beth said so.

You still think Superbeth is running this investigation? :rolleyes:
Unbelievable!
imo

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:55 PM

.... And, one of THEM is still a suspect .... ;)

JMO You bet, regardless of what beth says.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 09:59 PM

You still think Superbeth is running this investigation? :rolleyes:
Unbelievable!
imo

She certainly tried. If she didn't, what was the "family investigation" all about? Who is she to say (quotes for ease of reading not accuracy) "those poor black security guards are innocent".

I have never, ever heard of a "family investigation" on Aruba or anywhere else under the laws or legal system of the Dutch Kingdom. IMO it's preposterous.

So yes, IMO she was trying to run the investigation, from the moment she set foot on Aruba and supposedly couldn't even find a cabbie to take her to the nearest populated police station.

Is she still running the investigation? Nah, haven't you noticed her absence?

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 10:08 PM

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 10:11 PM

Will he feel differently about Joran ?? I don't know .... we will have to wait to see what happens.

JMO

It apparently was enough to prolong Joran's detention for the second period of 8 days, this is indicative to me that the evidence shows Joran is the person suspected of actually committing the alleged crime of vm, JMO

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:11 PM

What has the Prosecutor done today to make you know this?

I don't think it's what the Prosecutor has or hasn't done. I think it's based on the reactions of this board.

People doing happy dances a week ago are now almost outraged. Just my perception.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:12 PM

It apparently was enough to prolong Joran's detention for the second period of 8 days, this is indicative to me that the evidence shows Joran is the person suspected of actually committing the alleged crime of vm, JMO

I know, that's why I put the technicality explanation on the board. :)

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 10:14 PM

Twitty has been left with the booby prize for being the only person to accuse the boys of rape, kidnapping and
IMO

Beth & Dave have been left without their daughter, and Aruban authorities detained J2K on suspicion of kidnap, rape, murder, and have recently added voluntary manslaughter to the list of suspicions, IMO.

JustMyOpinion

11-30-2007, 10:18 PM

We have a whole host of suspects in this case .... do you know if THEY lied ?? Do you know if THEY answered questions, or refused to answer questions ??

JMO

What is certain, is the last known person who admits to being with a living, Natalee Holloway is locked up at the KIA undergoing a prolonged detention for reasonable suspicion of killing Natalee Holloway, IMO.

Chocoholic

11-30-2007, 10:25 PM

Beth & Dave have been left without their daughter, and Aruban authorities detained J2K on suspicion of kidnap, rape, murder, and have recently added voluntary manslaughter to the list of suspicions, IMO.
No darlin' you don't understand.

The OM starts out with the highest suspicions and works it's way down, not add to it.

They weren't able to charge or keep any of the suspects on kidnap, rape and murder, and it looks like they can't hold anybody on the suspected manslaughter suspicions either.

I know this must be a sad day for those who would like to see J2K in prison without evidence, but the judge disagrees with OM's view that there is enough evidence to hold them.

Heyes

11-30-2007, 10:31 PM

I don't think it's what the Prosecutor has or hasn't done. I think it's based on the reactions of this board.

People doing happy dances a week ago are now almost outraged. Just my perception.

Hey I can do both!
Dancing that joran is still in the can, outraged that the other two get to get out even though it looks like they destroyed evidence and hid Natalee's body.
I haven't heard of that here. Is there a judge with this kind of evidence that would let a suspect go knowing that he did these things? INSANE!

Getting rid of a body is 3 years max in aruba, per greta show! That place is scary! IMO
imo

No Nic

11-30-2007, 10:40 PM

Of course, I could be wrong, but it could be that they have taped conversations of Joran that incriminate HIM in the actual crime against Natalee. The evidence against K2 could be for participation in the cover-up/body disposal.

I could have sworn I just heard Mos say the judge agreed they had serious evidence against K2 for lesser crimes and these are not crimes that warrant pre-trial detainment. That is not the same as no evidence.

We just have to wait and see, but Greta just voiced that same scenario.

imo

Chocoholic

12-01-2007, 01:01 AM

Hey I can do both!
Dancing that joran is still in the can, outraged that the other two get to get out even though it looks like they destroyed evidence and hid Natalee's body.
I haven't heard of that here. Is there a judge with this kind of evidence that would let a suspect go knowing that he did these things? INSANE!

Getting rid of a body is 3 years max in aruba, per greta show! That place is scary! IMO
imo

As a defense attorney greta would have to agree it would have to be based on the evidence and since this professional judge has deemed there isn't even enough to hold them over for more questioning, the evidence IMO must be lousy at best. These judges aren't in it for publicity. Tito they ain't! They're there to uphold the law, regardless of your opinions.

Count your days until Dec. 7. Dancing shoes will be for Joran, IMO.

No Nic

12-01-2007, 04:28 AM

The judge reasoned Friday that "the new evidence, together with the existing evidence in this case, produce serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting, of covering up the traces of a crime committed or of the disposing of a corpse," prosecutors said.

But people accused of those crimes do not qualify for pretrial detention under Aruban law, Mos told reporters. He noted that on Monday, the same judge approved van der Sloot's continuing detention based on the same evidence.

"Apparently, the judge sees a difference between the third suspect and these two suspects," Mos said, since the judge concluded the evidence against the Kalpoes was not strong enough to warrant their continued detention.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/aruba.holloway/index.html#cnnSTCText

Doesn't look like it is over, but we shall see, imo.