Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6)

[Chocoholic]

As usual, your link has nothing to do with what we're discussing :shrug:

What you have written in your post, I have never said.

I feel sorry for ARUBA, NOT Aruban Law Enforcement and Government Officials and Heads of The Aruban Tourist Board.

Funny how Paulus is the one who doesn't give a rip about Aruba - he was trying to squeeze $29,000 in a law suit for his detainment - when it was his own son who caused it. Joran. But Paulus felt the poor Aruban taxpayer had to foot the bill for his son's malicious actions. Go figure.

jmo

Can you please post a link to how Paul v.d. Sloot felt about who exactly should have footed the bill?

Can you please recall whether the detainment of Paul v.d. Sloot was deemed legal or not?

Can you please find out what "illegal arrest lawsuits" award US citizens? I'm guessing it's more than $29,000 if a cuppa coffee can award one millions.

The malicious actions have yet to be proven, if you have a link to said malicious actions, other than lies, which beth is guilty of as well, then please provide a link.

[Chocoholic]

I'm sure they're trying what will stick best. Some things are harder to prove than others. Sounds like they have the evidence for "manslaughter" (murder). That is despicable enough for me. Hope they make it stick.

jmo

Oh I'm sure they're trying hard. OM wants this wrapped up in the worst way. However, it's been proven so far darned tricky to make anything stick. It's not even been proven that Natalee died! Nothing more than an "I think" from the current prosecutor.

As is my opinion, that Natalee didn't die but ran away, and the boys aren't responsible for any crime isn't it despicable that they have been the target of a witch hunt for 2.5 yrs. Just put your feelings aside for 10 minutes and think about it before you reply.

If nothing else they are just as innocent until proven guilty in a court of law as they are in the US of A. So far I haven't seen much of that IUPG on this board.

[Chocoholic]

I'm sure they're trying what will stick best. Some things are harder to prove than others. Sounds like they have the evidence for "manslaughter" (murder). That is despicable enough for me. Hope they make it stick.

jmo

So if it sounds like "they" have the evidence, why weren't they charged?

[JustMyOpinion]

As is my opinion, that Natalee didn't die but ran away,


What facts & circumstances do you utilize to support your opinion she ran away?

[Grandad]

I think we can all wait until next week, when more information will be known (hopefully!) Parsing and mincing words looks like a weak line of defense.

jmo

Presenting a line of defense and striving for accuracy are two different things.

[JustMyOpinion]

You're right, I'm impatient.

The fact that none of the persons of interest have been charged,with kidnapping, gangrape or murder, and subsequently released, under Dutch law means that the prosecution couldn't come up with enough evidence.

.


Their release showed they lacked sufficient evidence at that time to prove the alleged crimes, but the suspects were not successful in their court bid to be officially cleared & the time period for investigation was extended. Dutch investigators were invited and performed their own case review & investigation, it appears old evidence was not analyzed correctly AND that they have new evidence sufficient to re-arrest and detain the Kalpoes for an additional 8 days. What is it that you fail to understand about the on-going investigation yielding new evidence against the last known persons seen with Natalee?

[Chocoholic]

What facts & circumstances do you utilize to support your opinion she ran away?

Statements made by the parties involved, including the MB students.

[nately]

Chocoholic, Im confused a bit. You DO speak/read Dutch?
I saw you posted an article in Dutch, you need translation?

[Chocoholic]

Their release showed they lacked sufficient evidence at that time to prove the alleged crimes, but the suspects were not successful in their court bid to be officially cleared & the time period for investigation was extended. Dutch investigators were invited and performed their own case review & investigation, it appears old evidence was not analyzed correctly AND that they have new evidence sufficient to re-arrest and detain the Kalpoes for an additional 8 days. <snipped for derogatory comment>
They lacked sufficient evidence to retain any of the persons of interest on the alleged suspected crime of gangrape, kidnap and murder. If the evidence had been there and was still there, they can be charged with said crimes. It is quite clear that none have been charged with a crime. J2K are being held for interrogation because they lack the evidence to go forth with actually laying charges. Links have already been provided and since Sieg is here and a much better translator apparently than I (at least according to HiLife), you can confirm this with him/her.

Can you please post a link which persons of interest have gone back to court to request themselves to be removed from suspect status?

[nately]

Thanks for the translation, Nately. If you have the time or the inclination, could you tell us what this one says (9th link down)? What has been posted elsewhere is that Joran's neighbors in Holland are happy to see him gone. Supposedly, he was not the best of neighbors, but that does not surprise many of us.
http://www.rtl.nl/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/
TIA

No Nic, I havent been able to open that like, to my own regrets, it just doesnt work (for me).

[Luke Davis]

Loving Natalee: The True Story of the Aruba Kidnapping and Its Aftermath (Mass Market Paperback)
by Beth Holloway (Author)
List Price: $7.99

It doesn't even have a rating anymore.

http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Natalee-Story-Kidnapping-Aftermath/dp/0061468797

I wonder if Beth is in Netherlands to negotiate book rights?

MOO

[Luke Davis]

What importance is the rating?

Book Ratings = 0

List Price = $7.99

J2K in Jail = PRICELESS! :D


jmo

:hat: Thanks for the smile!

[Chocoholic]

Chocoholic, Im confused a bit. You DO speak/read Dutch?
I saw you posted an article in Dutch, you need translation?
Apparently it's against the rules to post articles or posts in Dutch. I speak, write and read Dutch fluently, along with a few other languages ;) Thank you for the offer though!

I think the confusion on this board occurs when people believe that "voorarrest" is the same as "arrest" that "detainment" is the same as "arrest" and best of all being in detainment for the suspicion of an alleged crime is the same as having been charged with crimes.

The differences are subtle and often misunderstood.

[Luke Davis]

Terrific answer!

Even if released, these men will never be able to live their lives without this hanging over them! And they shouldn't, because their cruel, callous lies deserve no less!

jmoI bet Dr. Phil is happy.

:hat:

[Chocoholic]

No Nic, I havent been able to open that like, to my own regrets, it just doesnt work (for me).

I can open the link, this is what it says "Nederlanders scheepsramp in Chili".

I believe, from what I discussed with Riviera yesterday that posting a link like that without a translation is against the rules. :D

[Chocoholic]

I wonder if Beth is in Netherlands to negotiate book rights?

MOO

Is beth in the Netherlands? On other boards I read that if she indeed were it would have been in the news. So far no news = good news.

imo

[JustMyOpinion]

Can you please post a link which persons of interest have gone back to court to request themselves to be removed from suspect status?
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
The decision theory to take these to court has all characteristics of a final sprint, says Dompig. The suspects asked the OM last year to put an end to the ‘dragging’ case by either dropping it or persecuting them officially. Especially the father of Joran, Paul van der Sloot, wanted to drop the seal of suspect. He succeeded and the criminal investigation on him was officially stopped. “The brothers Kalpoe and his son tried the same and requested the judge to no longer consider them as suspects. Last year the OM agreed to close the case this year and that the suspects will know where they stand; thus they were in a hurry”, said Dompig. The OM had till December 31 to decide whether to persecute the suspects or not,.

[Luke Davis]

No Nic, I havent been able to open that like, to my own regrets, it just doesnt work (for me).Sometimes when a link does not operate for me, I find it helps to go to the main page, then drill down. You may have to accept a cookie to proceed. I find this often happens with direct links to videos.

The link does work for me.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

Is beth in the Netherlands? On other boards I read that if she indeed were it would have been in the news. So far no news = good news.

imoIt was in the news, I will try and find it. MOO

[Luke Davis]

It was in the news, I will try and find it. MOO

Today Show (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DPXTGjQpcG0)

Beth to Holland then Aruba.

[Chocoholic]

http://www.amigoe.com/english/
The decision theory to take these to court has all characteristics of a final sprint, says Dompig. The suspects asked the OM last year to put an end to the ‘dragging’ case by either dropping it or persecuting them officially. Especially the father of Joran, Paul van der Sloot, wanted to drop the seal of suspect. He succeeded and the criminal investigation on him was officially stopped. “The brothers Kalpoe and his son tried the same and requested the judge to no longer consider them as suspects. Last year the OM agreed to close the case this year and that the suspects will know where they stand; thus they were in a hurry”, said Dompig. The OM had till December 31 to decide whether to persecute the suspects or not,.

I wonder why none of the other suspects demanded the same and why only Paul v.d. Sloot and ONE of the SGs were cleared.

[Chocoholic]

Today Show (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DPXTGjQpcG0)

Beth to Holland then Aruba.

Thank you Luke. If she is indeed in the Netherlands, it's not making the news. What is making the news is this "Natalee Holloway geen heilig boontje", which translates roughly into Natalee Holloway far from perfect.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2569524/Natalee_Holloway_geen_heilig_boontje.html?p=2,1

And also this one "Moeder loog over Natalee's gedrag' - "Mother lied about Natalee's behavior" (I know, that's a shocker)

http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/124438/Moeder-loog-over-Natalees-gedrag.html

[No Nic]

Thank you Luke. If she is indeed in the Netherlands, it's not making the news. What is making the news is this "Natalee Holloway geen heilig boontje", which translates roughly into Natalee Holloway far from perfect.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2569524/Natalee_Holloway_geen_heilig_boontje.html?p=2,1

And also this one "Moeder loog over Natalee's gedrag' - "Mother lied about Natalee's behavior" (I know, that's a shocker)

http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/124438/Moeder-loog-over-Natalees-gedrag.html

Anita Van der Sloot lied about Joran.



He does not do drugs (LIE, he had to use anothers urine in prison to pass a drug test)
He doesn't smoke (LIE, he was smoking in a recent interview)
He does not lie,only covers up a little (LIE, his lies are everywhere)
He's a good sporter (LIE, his true character has been revealed)
He turned himself in to police (LIE, he was picked up at his home)
He has not been detained, only questioned (LIE, he is in police custody)


Feel free to add to the list.

WHY OH WHY DOES ANITA LIE?

imo

[Luke Davis]

Don't have a link but it is being reported Beth will be in Aruba Thursday. Dave will begin the sea search about that time.

MOO

[Chocoholic]

http://www.dianefordsoftfurnishings.co.uk/images/CUSHION%20PADS.jpg

Gosh that was good while it lasted :biggrin:

[Luke Davis]

Joran at airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXaVhzSU07w)

[ortiga]

Joran at airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXaVhzSU07w)


Good thing that got that in before the December Oscar cut off!

[Chocoholic]

Joran at airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXaVhzSU07w)

All right you win, I'm speechless.

[ortiga]

http://www.dianefordsoftfurnishings.co.uk/images/CUSHION%20PADS.jpg

Gosh that was good while it lasted :biggrin:

Thanks, much more comfortable now.

[ortiga]

Joran at airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXaVhzSU07w)

It said Fox news alert. Uh, they played that on TV?

[Luke Davis]

Good thing that got that in before the December Oscar cut off!His hair style reminds me of Spock on Star Trek. I like it better than his butch cut when he was younger.


MOO

[ortiga]

His hair style reminds me of Spock on Star Trek. I like it better than his butch cut when he was yonger.


MOO


I sure get a bad play on that video, is he the one on the right where they show only half his head?

[Grandad]

http://www.amigoe.com/english/
The decision theory to take these to court has all characteristics of a final sprint, says Dompig. The suspects asked the OM last year to put an end to the ‘dragging’ case by either dropping it or persecuting them officially. Especially the father of Joran, Paul van der Sloot, wanted to drop the seal of suspect. He succeeded and the criminal investigation on him was officially stopped. “The brothers Kalpoe and his son tried the same and requested the judge to no longer consider them as suspects. Last year the OM agreed to close the case this year and that the suspects will know where they stand; thus they were in a hurry”, said Dompig. The OM had till December 31 to decide whether to persecute the suspects or not,.

Is this a typo, or a Freudian slip?

[fairmaiden]

I sure get a bad play on that video, is he the one on the right where they show only half his head?

LOLOL .... It kinda reminded me of the "Skeeter" interview ..... lolol.

JMO

[fairmaiden]

Is this a typo, or a Freudian slip?

Oh, that's funny .... lol !!!

[Luke Davis]

I sure get a bad play on that video, is he the one on the right where they show only half his head?Yes. We have 22 lurkers, I thought I would give them a treat.

:hat:

[ortiga]

LOLOL .... It kinda reminded me of the "Skeeter" interview ..... lolol.

JMO


right! except there was no fan !

[ortiga]

Oh, that's funny .... lol !!!

When I read GD's post I thought of that guy who stole a loaf of bread and they persecuted him forever....Les miserables

[ortiga]

Yes. We have 22 lurkers, I thought I would give them a treat.

:hat:

He didn't seem to have a devil's suit on, no horns, no firey breath, no pitchfork.

[Chocoholic]

right! except there was no fan !

I thought i also detected a shaking of the head and a perceptible "simple". Could just be me, I'm old and I like to blame many of my imperfections on my aging.

[HiLife]

If Joran had been released as a suspect instead of being re-detained, re-arrested, I bet he would have also tried to squeeze $$$ out of those "poor Arubans" himself.

BTW, what do you suppose is going to become of K2s California law suit? How can they sue someone from jail? Bwahahahahahaha

Wonder if Anita is still going to publish her book of lies? I think she will now have to do a bit of editing. Bwahahahahaha


imo

You have me laughing so hard!! Thanks!

From what I've seenn of Joan, seems he has no shame (the book of fiction, the interviews and the "FtheB" comment) - he probably would sue if given the chance! Imagine, his father, Paulus, who would have to face his peers had no shame and went right ahead and tried to profit off the backs of the poor Aruban taxpayers. Thanksfully, justice prevailed and Paulus did not receive the money.

The California Lawsuit.......(lol - Bwahahaha!!) Do you think a jury would have much sympathy for men in jail, suspected of voluntary manslaughter - murder- suing Dr. Phil for "lying" about them? Or for Dr. Phil "ruining their good name/reputation??" (this one is too funny for words!)

Anita and editing.....lololol! Personally, I think they probably backed off their works of fiction after seeing how "well" Joran's book of fiction went over. Like a lead balloon. I don't thinnk they would dare, at this point. Then again....

JMO

[No Nic]

You have me laughing so hard!! Thanks!

From what I've seenn of Joan, seems he has no shame (the book of fiction, the interviews and the "FtheB" comment) - he probably would sue if given the chance! Imagine, his father, Paulus, who would have to face his peers had no shame and went right ahead and tried to profit off the backs of the poor Aruban taxpayers. Thanksfully, justice prevailed and Paulus did not receive the money.

The California Lawsuit.......(lol - Bwahahaha!!) Do you think a jury would have much sympathy for men in jail, suspected of voluntary manslaughter - murder- suing Dr. Phil for "lying" about them? Or for Dr. Phil "ruining their good name/reputation??" (this one is too funny for words!)

Anita and editing.....lololol! Personally, I think they probably backed off their works of fiction after seeing how "well" Joran's book of fiction went over. Like a lead balloon. I don't thinnk they would dare, at this point. Then again....

JMO

But....but....but.... Joran's book is in about it's 100th printing by now. :biggrin:

imo

[Chocoholic]

You have me laughing so hard!! Thanks!

From what I've seenn of Joan, seems he has no shame

I know I need glasses but yesterday I read that Jordon is now involved in this disappearance and Joan is also? The list of suspects is growing. Is that a good or a bad thing?

BTW, speaking of editing, check your own post, there are several errors in it. I'm sure you'll find them.

[HiLife]

I know I need glasses but yesterday I read that Jordon is now involved in this disappearance and Joan is also? The list of suspects is growing. Is that a good or a bad thing?

BTW, speaking of editing, Anita might do a better job than you. Try spell check before you post.

I don't know about a suspect list, seeing how J2K are the ones sitting in jail at the moment.

LOL - I see you've been busy being the resident spell-checker the last couple of days. Is it a do as I say, not as I do type of thing? Does it apply to your "cometary?" Looks like mine was a Freudian slip?

Regarding Anita's editing, it would have to do with changing her lies about Joran, not spelling.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

I don't know about a suspect list, seeing how J2K are the ones sitting in jail at the moment.

LOL - I see you've been busy being the resident spell-checker the last couple of days. Is it a do as I say, not as I do type of thing? Does it apply to your "cometary?" Looks like mine was a Freudian slip?

Regarding Anita's editing, it would have to do with changing her lies about Joran, not spelling.

jmo

If your mistake was a Freudian slip so be it. I reported my post to the moderators to be edited, and I have posted it as such.

So who are Joan and Jordon?

Nah I have better things to do than just spellchecking but thanks for your concern.

Any word yet on why beth lies and what the telephone number is to the US Embassy in Washington DC?

[HiLife]

But....but....but.... Joran's book is in about it's 100th printing by now. :biggrin:

imo

I wonder if there will be a Part Two Book from jail?

Is it true authorities will be "meeting" with Joran tomorrow morning at 9am?

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Loving Natalee:

Amazon.com Sales Rank: #84,994 in Books

List Price: $7.99

I wonder when beth's second edition is coming out.

[Chocoholic]

De Zaak Natalee Holloway

De zaak Natalee Holloway
mijn eigen verhaal over haar verdwijning op Aruba (The case "Natalee Holloway, my own story about her disappearance on Aruba)

bol.com prijs: € 17,95 | 2ehands vanaf € 20,00

New price 17.95 Euros. Second hand starting from 20.00 Euros.

Don't ask me why the second hand books are apparently worth more than the new ones.

http://www.nl.bol.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/nl/-/EUR/BOL_DisplayProductInformation-Start?Section=BOOK&BOL_OWNER_ID=1001004004808920

1 Euro = approx $1.50 US right now, depending on the value of the US dollar of course.

[terrysdoor]

Good morning everybody........ just back from spending the Holiday with family hope everyone enjoyed

Well i am glad some activity is going on maybe we will find out the truth this time but we have seen this before in this case IMO

[HiLife]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/index.html

NEW: Judge to determine if evidence warrants holding Joran van der Sloot

Investigators also returned to the homes of the suspects to try to re-create transmissions.

The team also discovered that some existing evidence was improperly analyzed, Mos added.

Prosecutor: "We have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore"

Mos further explained that Aruban law does not require a body to prove someone is dead "and any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."



jmo

[HiLife]

Gee, Anita, finally decided keeping quiet is the best way to go? LMBO!!!


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/index.html

Van der Sloot's mother, Anita, has said her son told her he was on the beach with Holloway but left her there because she wanted to stay.

She said Friday she had no comment on her son's latest arrest.


jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5781090
SNIP:Holloway is still among the missing Miller hopes to find.

"It's a case like we work all our other cases," he said. "Once we start one, we like to work it to the end."

In the search for the 18-year-old, it means Miller will return to Aruba one more time.

"I believe her body was put on the boat in a large crab trap, and then we feel as though they put some rocks in there and took her out there to the deep water," said Miller.

And dumped her body.

With the help of underwater surveyor Louis Schaffer, they will search those deep waters off Aruba by boat early next month.

"We'll tow a sonar," said Schaffer. "It's called a side scan sonar and it scans out both sides of the boat and we can scan about a 600 foot wide path at a time."
We spoke with Dave Holloway, Natelee's father, about the upcoming search by phone.

"You know that's important for any human being to have closure and know exactly what happened and have, you know, funeral burial," said Hollway.

Miller and Schaffer believe they can bring the Holloways that with a team of some of the best underwater surveyors in the business. The 125-foot boat will leave from New Iberia, Louisiana some time next week. It's called the RV Persistence and sums up the attitude of this entire expedition.

[HiLife]

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=local&id=5781090

<snipped>

We spoke with Dave Holloway, Natelee's father, about the upcoming search by phone.

"You know that's important for any human being to have closure and know exactly what happened and have, you know, funeral burial," said Hollway.

Miller and Schaffer believe they can bring the Holloways that with a team of some of the best underwater surveyors in the business. The 125-foot boat will leave from New Iberia, Louisiana some time next week.

It's called the RV Persistence and sums up the attitude of this entire expedition.

"Persistence" sounds like Dave and Beth Holloway to a "T."

They deserve the answers regarding their daughter - any parent does. They have proven themselves to both be the type of people that cannot and will not rest until the truth is found about their daughter, that Natalee is properly put to rest and justice is served. I pray that "persistence" pays off and that the Holloways get all of this, finally.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/index.html

NEW: Judge to determine if evidence warrants holding Joran van der Sloot


Say it isn't so! So what's been said, that evidence had yet to be presented to a judge, is actually true?

WOW

[Chocoholic]

Gee, Anita, finally decided keeping quiet is the best way to go?

Yeah I can see why Anita keeping quiet is of importance, after all she was on the tv for all those months, night after night.

:rolleyes:

[HiLife]

Yeah I can see why Anita keeping quiet is of importance, after all she was on the tv for all those months, night after night.

:rolleyes:

Truth be told, I love when Anita talks. It's like when Joran speaks, it only makes her and Joran look worse. The importance of Anita keeping quiet, to me, personally, is that I've just never tolerated enablers lying and covering. It makes them look so foolish to everyone else.

But still, I say, keep talking Anita!

jmo

[Luke Davis]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/index.html

NEW: Judge to determine if evidence warrants holding Joran van der Sloot

Investigators also returned to the homes of the suspects to try to re-create transmissions.

The team also discovered that some existing evidence was improperly analyzed, Mos added.

Prosecutor: "We have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore"

Mos further explained that Aruban law does not require a body to prove someone is dead "and any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."



jmo

I think the news stories are fascinating, especially the headlines. I saw one headline, "Book Author to Search for Natalee" speaking of Dave.

Your quotes are different than in stories yesterday. Hard to know what to believe. But mainly I trust the video more than the written stories.

The people speaking and not are also interesting. Beth is quiet with her lawyer Balbor releasing a statement for her, meanwhile John Q. Kelly is silent. Joe T is speaking but sending out a woman to take the flak.

Meanwhile, the families of the prime suspects are mum. And the other suspects are all but forgotten.

All fascinating to watch.


MOO

[Luke Davis]

MSNBC is reporting the hearing will be in the afternoon.

MOO

[fairmaiden]

MSNBC is reporting the hearing will be in the afternoon.

MOO

You know, Luke .... I don't think I've ever asked this question .... but .... what time is it in Aruba ?? Compared to Eastern time ??

JMO

[terrysdoor]

I think the news stories are fascinating, especially the headlines. I saw one headline, "Book Author to Search for Natalee" speaking of Dave.

Your quotes are different than in stories yesterday. Hard to know what to believe. But mainly I trust the video more than the written stories.

The people speaking and not are also interesting. Beth is quiet with her lawyer Balbor releasing a statement for her, meanwhile John Q. Kelly is silent. Joe T is speaking but sending out a woman to take the flak.

Meanwhile, the families of the prime suspects are mum. And the other suspects are all but forgotten.

All fascinating to watch.


MOO

Luke i agree it is amazing to watch just flipping thru the tv channels you get several different stories which has been the case all along IMO no two stories are the same anywhere IMO maybe Greta will set us straight tonight she will be live in Aruba IMO

[fairmaiden]

Luke i agree it is amazing to watch just flipping thru the tv channels you get several different stories which has been the case all along IMO no two stories are the same anywhere IMO maybe Greta will set us straight tonight she will be live in Aruba IMO

Luke and terry .... It IS fascinating. I believe we see our cable TH'S apply their own interpretation to what's happening. I'm not sure this is a good thing.

JMO

[HiLife]

MSNBC is reporting the hearing will be in the afternoon.

MOO
Thanks for keeping us posted, Luke.

I agree with you about all the conflicting/different news and headlines coming out of Aruba. While not so good for us, it is good they are keeping the news down to a minimum - it gives whatever does come out, more credibility. Hope to hear something soon!

The thread on CTV is hopping. Guess we've become too jaded over here! :(
Cautiously awaiting news.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

MSNBC is reporting the evidence is from taped calls at the beginning of the investigation. They have transcripts of the calls. No source revealed. Rumor is Dompig is releasing the information.

MOO

[ortiga]

MSNBC is reporting the evidence is from taped calls at the beginning of the investigation. They have transcripts of the calls. No source revealed. Rumor is Dompig is releasing the information.

MOO


MSNBC has the transcripts? :eek:

There sure is a delay from what you see on TV to when it shows up on internet. A whole different ball game.

So. if they go ahead and play these tapes, and if they are the smoking gun...possibly they can't be used as evidence.


Hmm...Dompig? So maybe that's his goal?

[Luke Davis]

MSNBC is reporting the transcipt is from June 29th, 2005. Perhaps that is available somewhere.

MOO

[ortiga]

MSNBC is reporting the transcipt is from June 29th, 2005. Perhaps that is available somewhere.

MOO

I don't think I have ever seen a transcript of a taped call

[Chocoholic]

Truth be told, I love when Anita talks. It's like when Joran speaks, it only makes her and Joran look worse. The importance of Anita keeping quiet, to me, personally, is that I've just never tolerated enablers lying and covering. It makes them look so foolish to everyone else.

But still, I say, keep talking Anita!

jmo

Gee I don't know, but a reporter from Curacao making a documentary in which she alleges that Natalee was in rehab before going to Aruba. Now if Natalee was in rehab and beth sent Natalee on her way to an all-inclusive to Aruba, would that be considered "enabling"?

[HiLife]

Gee I don't know, but a reporter from Curacao making a documentary in which she alleges that Natalee was in rehab before going to Aruba. Now if Natalee was in rehab and beth sent Natalee on her way to an all-inclusive to Aruba, would that be considered "enabling"?

This ludicrous "rehab" rumor isn't even worth the cyber space it takes to display it.

Enabling is a Van der Sloot specialty, not Beth's, IMO.

jmo

[ortiga]

Gee I don't know, but a reporter from Curacao making a documentary in which she alleges that Natalee was in rehab before going to Aruba. Now if Natalee was in rehab and beth sent Natalee on her way to an all-inclusive to Aruba, would that be considered "enabling"?


Even if it is eventually proven that Natalee never went to rehab, that it is a rumor......

The fact that Beth sent a girl of Natalee's experience....ie no experience with boys, non-drinker, non-drug taker, studious, very religious, always shopping with her Mom on saturdays instead of going with the gals............

To Aruba on that type of vacation with free unlimited booze provided....

certainly qualifies as enabling behavior on Beth's part. Is there a stronger word than enabling? I've always been partial to the analogy of throwing the baby in the deep end of the pool to learn to swim. Which, I think no responsible parent would ever do.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

You know, Luke .... I don't think I've ever asked this question .... but .... what time is it in Aruba ?? Compared to Eastern time ??

JMO

I thought they were on the same time...

[terrysdoor]

MSNBC is reporting the transcipt is from June 29th, 2005. Perhaps that is available somewhere.

MOO

Luke is that the taped conversation in the car? iam confused IMO

[ortiga]

MSNBC is reporting the transcipt is from June 29th, 2005. Perhaps that is available somewhere.

MOO


If it does turn out to be the car tape (which is not a "call) then

1) I prefer the Rohn TV version

2) the reporting doesn't match up with the telegraf article where they IIRC report that the prosecutor said it was a file that was first deemed to be irrelevant. But, I could go along with the car tape being irrelevant.

The only thing interesting to me is the hit the girl with a car part, but presumably ALE would already know what that means.

IMO

[Luke Davis]

I thought they were on the same time...Some confusion but I think Atlantic time, an hour ahead of EST. It was the same during DST. Either way it is afternoon now.

MOO

[Luke Davis]

Luke is that the taped conversation in the car? iam confused IMOI am confused too. Many rumors flying around. If the new evidence is an old conversation, I don't think it is worth much. Back then, they were changing their stories. Some say one, three times, 23 times....

:shrug:

[Luke Davis]

Video of Joran and others (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo)

[ortiga]

Video of Joran and others (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/?iref=mpstoryview#cnnSTCVideo)


that woman sure has bizarre body language....like she is answering the "hard question" part of a beauty contest. Wide grin, flirting cocking of the head...and like you say, there appear to be some errors. For instance I have never gotten the impression that if there is a trial, it would be a long one.

IMO

[Grandad]

You know, Luke .... I don't think I've ever asked this question .... but .... what time is it in Aruba ?? Compared to Eastern time ??

JMO

Aruba is in the Atlantic time zone. During "standard" time season, they're one hour ahead of the Eastern time zone, however, Aruba doesn't use daylight savings time, so during "daylight" season, they have the same time as the Eastern time zone.

[Luke Davis]

CNN reporting hearing with Joran will be after 3 p.m.


MOO

[Grandad]

Some confusion but I think Atlantic time, an hour ahead of EST. It was the same during DST. Either way it is afternoon now.

MOO

You type a lot faster than I do.

[ortiga]

CNN reporting hearing with Joran will be after 3 p.m.


MOO

I can just see the scene in Aruba, and then all the faulty reports afterwards. From what I've read it's a given that he will be held over, and another given that it is not a public event, so I guess the reporters will have to interview each other.

IMO

[Grandad]

You have me laughing so hard!! Thanks!

From what I've seenn of Joan, seems he has no shame (the book of fiction, the interviews and the "FtheB" comment) - he probably would sue if given the chance! Imagine, his father, Paulus, who would have to face his peers had no shame and went right ahead and tried to profit off the backs of the poor Aruban taxpayers. Thanksfully, justice prevailed and Paulus did not receive the money.

The California Lawsuit.......(lol - Bwahahaha!!) Do you think a jury would have much sympathy for men in jail, suspected of voluntary manslaughter - murder- suing Dr. Phil for "lying" about them? Or for Dr. Phil "ruining their good name/reputation??" (this one is too funny for words!)

Anita and editing.....lololol! Personally, I think they probably backed off their works of fiction after seeing how "well" Joran's book of fiction went over. Like a lead balloon. I don't thinnk they would dare, at this point. Then again....

JMO

I believe there was a time during which if Beth had backed off, there wouldn't be any law suit, however, I believe the van der Sloots', and their attorney's attitudes have changed.

If the Kalpoes and their lawyers weren't afraid to go to go to court while they were under suspicion of kidnapping , rape and murder, why would they be afraid of court when the suspicions have been reduced to manslaughter.

There's no doubt in my mind, that's much the same as IMO or JMO, the suspicions will go away shortly, and a settlement will follow.

[Grandad]

I can just see the scene in Aruba, and then all the faulty reports afterwards. From what I've read it's a given that he will be held over, and another given that it is not a public event, so I guess the reporters will have to interview each other.

IMO

I don't think there's any doubt the prosecutor will get his last eight days, but he may give up after two or three.

It's interesting Beth won't be in Aruba until Thursday. But once she's there, there will be a lot of reports and interviews.

ETA Thursday may be the day some people may think the suspects will be released.

[Grandad]

MSNBC has the transcripts? :eek:

There sure is a delay from what you see on TV to when it shows up on internet. A whole different ball game.

So. if they go ahead and play these tapes, and if they are the smoking gun...possibly they can't be used as evidence.


Hmm...Dompig? So maybe that's his goal?

I could be wrong, but I believe something can't be used as evidence only if the prosecutor or ALE releases it.

[FrankieBones1]

Gee, Anita, finally decided keeping quiet is the best way to go? LMBO!!!


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/26/holloway.arrest/index.html

Van der Sloot's mother, Anita, has said her son told her he was on the beach with Holloway but left her there because she wanted to stay.

She said Friday she had no comment on her son's latest arrest.


jmoI hope it's because she has finally come to expect that her son could have done something to Natalee. Maybe he confided to her more than we know.
imo

[Chocoholic]

I hope it's because she has finally come to expect that her son could have done something to Natalee. Maybe he confided to her more than we know.
imo

More? If it's anything illegal, I'm fairly sure that as the wife of an attorney she will be quite aware what the consequences would be if she was hiding information about a crime. One thing she doesn't strike me as is stupid.

[FrankieBones1]

I have definitely just changed my opinion of Natalee...she is now a superhero in my eyes. Beautiful, fun-loving, successful academic by day...strung-out drug runner by night!

I admit I could be totally wrong about this, but how in the world did that girl do it? How was she in such bad shape that she needed rehab, yet managed to keep a 4.0 GPA, join the dance team, and go down a shame spiral so horrible without her family or friends knowing.

And I know Beth has made some mistakes, but for her or Jug to send a girl fresh out of rehab to Aruba on an all-drinking-vacation is a death wish. I can almost agree that Beth was trying to protect Natalee's image a little, but I doubt she hated her enough to send her on a wild trip post-rehab. Surely this rumor could easily be squashed?

And for that matter, do you really think Jug would spout family secrets to a taxi driver?

IMO.
It's a vicious rumor that's being spread around and it sure isn't nice to see it being spread around this site. Isn't this owned by Court TV? I don't think that Court TV would like rumors like this on their site. I will confer with Coldwater and see what she thinks.

[Heyes]

Just announced on FOX

joran is held for 8 more days!!!

happy dance:)
imo

[Heyes]

More? If it's anything illegal, I'm fairly sure that as the wife of an attorney she will be quite aware what the consequences would be if she was hiding information about a crime. One thing she doesn't strike me as is stupid.

As the wife of an attorney don't ya think she'd be quite aware that meddling in an investigation to the point that the prosecutor said that she has obstructed justice, might be considered stupid?

lol why oh why does anita lie?

IMO

[Chocoholic]

It's a vicious rumor that's being spread around and it sure isn't nice to see it being spread around this site. Isn't this owned by Court TV? I don't think that Court TV would like rumors like this on their site. I will confer with Coldwater and see what she thinks.

WOW. Freshwater is the administrator here. That is, to say the least disrespectful. Riviera is the moderator on this board, you may wish to check with her as well.

I see no reason why a person who is doing a documentary about this case and states that she has sources cannot be discussed. It has been stated that it is a rumour, we don't know the veracity of it all, however I see no reason that it can't be discussed.

Joran's alleged sociopathic personality has been discussed as though it were a fact, Joran's supposedly having gangraped, kidnapped and murdered has been discussed as though it were a fact. Nobody has run to anybody to state that this couldn't be discussed, as long as a link is provided.

It isn't untruthful that Gielen is doing a documentary about the Holloway case. It isn't a lie that Gielen stated that she asserted that Natalee has been in rehab.

Here, have some chocolate, and relax. This ain't CTV and hissy fits don't usually fly well.

[Chocoholic]

Just announced on FOX

joran is held for 8 more days!!!

happy dance:)
imo

As was expected.

[Chocoholic]

As the wife of an attorney don't ya think she'd be quite aware that meddling in an investigation to the point that the prosecutor said that she has obstructed justice, might be considered stupid?

lol why oh why does anita lie?

IMO

I have repeatedly asked for a list with credible links that show that Anita lies. So far, zero, zip, zilch, nada, nul.

Did she obstruct justice or the investigation? Please show a credible link that shows she obstructed justice. There are credible links that show that ALE felt the "family investigation" hindered the investigation in it's entirety.

So what's the number to the US Embassy in Washington?

[FrankieBones1]

Just announced on FOX

joran is held for 8 more days!!!

happy dance:)
imo
Hi, Heyes! It sure is good to see you here. I agree about the happy dance. Let's hope that we get justice this time around.

[fairmaiden]

Aruba is in the Atlantic time zone. During "standard" time season, they're one hour ahead of the Eastern time zone, however, Aruba doesn't use daylight savings time, so during "daylight" season, they have the same time as the Eastern time zone.

Thank you Grandad ....

[Heyes]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

Janssen said the judge made the comment "some days after" Holloway disappeared in a conversation with his son and the Kalpoes.

Investigators learned about his conversation with the three during questioning of one of the Kalpoe brothers, Janssen said, and when asked about the comment, the judge replied that he had been speaking about such a situation "generally."

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obstructed
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This ob·struct (əb-strŭkt', ŏb-) Pronunciation Key
tr.v. ob·struct·ed, ob·struct·ing, ob·structs

To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle. See Synonyms at block.
To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress. See Synonyms at hinder1.
To get in the way of so as to hide from sight.

imo!

[Heyes]

Hi, Heyes! It sure is good to see you here. I agree about the happy dance. Let's hope that we get justice this time around.


FrankieBones!!!!!!!!
Glad your here. I just popped over to courttv and saw you posting I was going to say hi and join in. You guys are saying it all and brilliantly I might add. By the time I think of something, somebody already posted it. lol Things are popping over there I can see. Awesome to see so many supporters of Natalee still involved and still fighting the cause!
:patriot:

[Luke Davis]

Attorneys Ronald Wix and David Kock told reporters that prosecutors gave them an 11 1/2-page summary of the evidence, and said it mostly contained segments of interrogations that had not been transcribed previously and recordings of conversations from cellphones and discussions inside the home of their client, Satish Kalpoe.

They disputed prosecution claims that the evidence — submitted to a judge to justify detaining their client and the two others — is significant or new.

"They will be acquitted. They will be freed," Wix said.



USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-11-26-aruba-holloway_N.htm)

[Chocoholic]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/06/30/aruba.missing/

Aruba's chief prosecutor Karin Janssen told CNN Wednesday the elder Van Der Sloot told his son that without a body police would have no case.

Janssen said the judge made the comment "some days after" Holloway disappeared in a conversation with his son and the Kalpoes.

Investigators learned about his conversation with the three during questioning of one of the Kalpoe brothers, Janssen said, and when asked about the comment, the judge replied that he had been speaking about such a situation "generally."

In addition, he and his wife, Anita, interfered in the case by asking a friend of their son what he had told police during questioning, Janssen said.

"That was not positive to the investigation," she said.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obstructed
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This ob·struct (əb-strŭkt', ŏb-) Pronunciation Key
tr.v. ob·struct·ed, ob·struct·ing, ob·structs

To block or fill (a passage) with obstacles or an obstacle. See Synonyms at block.
To impede, retard, or interfere with; hinder: obstructed my progress. See Synonyms at hinder1.
To get in the way of so as to hide from sight.

imo!

Obstructing justice is what you said, not obstructing an investigation. Again, I think the "family" investigation was far more harmful.

[HiLife]

FrankieBones!!!!!!!!
Glad your here. I just popped over to courttv and saw you posting I was going to say hi and join in. You guys are saying it all and brilliantly I might add. By the time I think of something, somebody already posted it. lol Things are popping over there I can see. Awesome to see so many supporters of Natalee still involved and still fighting the cause!
:patriot:

Hi Heyes! I'm exactly like you - I haven't jumped in over on CTV because they are all way ahead of me by the time I catch up! They're kicking tushy and taking names! lolol! I like how that Board is hopping!

jmo

[fairmaiden]

FrankieBones!!!!!!!!
Glad your here. I just popped over to courttv and saw you posting I was going to say hi and join in. You guys are saying it all and brilliantly I might add. By the time I think of something, somebody already posted it. lol Things are popping over there I can see. Awesome to see so many supporters of Natalee still involved and still fighting the cause!
:patriot:

Heyes .... I'm really not sure if you post this to get some kind of reaction, but I will go out on a limb and say it bothers me greatly. I've seen you post it a few times in the past few days. Let me ask you .... what exactly do you mean by "supporters of Natalee", or "Natalee supporters" you referred to the other day ?? There may be different opinions about this case, and the principles involved .... but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to know what happened to Natalee. I would think everyone who has posted on this board for the past 2 plus years would like to know what happened here.

I just wanted to set the record straight .

JMO

[Heyes]

Obstructing justice is what you said, not obstructing an investigation. Again, I think the "family" investigation was far more harmful.
So you say....
When was the arrest warrant issued for any of Natalee's family members?
We all know Paulus was arrested or detained or held or whatever word you like that means stuck behind bars. So I disagree that Natalee's family's involvement was more harmful. In fact, in light of the new facts it seems they were on the right track all along.
Now we need paulus arrested along with his buddies that railroaded the original investigation. Like the lovely "friends" that made sure the vandersloot residence wasn't completely searched. and possibly a few others.
IMO

[Heyes]

Hi Heyes! I'm exactly like you - I haven't jumped in over on CTV because they are all way ahead of me by the time I catch up! They're kicking tushy and taking names! lolol! I like how that Board is hopping!

jmo
Hey ya HiLife! :seeya:
After almost 2 and a half years it makes me warm and fuzzy all over to see the overwhelming support for Natalee. I like how people are allowed to speak their minds and are doing so. What a great group over there. What say ya come along with me and dive in? I already have.
IMO

[fairmaiden]

So you say....
When was the arrest warrant issued for any of Natalee's family members?
We all know Paulus was arrested or detained or held or whatever word you like that means stuck behind bars. So I disagree that Natalee's family's involvement was more harmful. In fact, in light of the new facts it seems they were on the right track all along.
Now we need paulus arrested along with his buddies that railroaded the original investigation. Like the lovely "friends" that made sure the vandersloot residence wasn't completely searched. and possibly a few others.
IMO

"In light of the new facts it seems they were on the right track all along". What facts are you referring to ??

JMO

[Heyes]

Heyes .... I'm really not sure if you post this to get some kind of reaction, but I will go out on a limb and say it bothers me greatly. I've seen you post it a few times in the past few days. Let me ask you .... what exactly do you mean by "supporters of Natalee", or "Natalee supporters" you referred to the other day ?? There may be different opinions about this case, and the principles involved .... but you would be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't want to know what happened to Natalee. I would think everyone who has posted on this board for the past 2 plus years would like to know what happened here.

I just wanted to set the record straight .

JMO

I think peoples posts speak for themselves as far as who they support.
Everyone can read and decide for themsleves.
Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving! :rose:

[fairmaiden]

I think peoples posts speak for themselves as far as who they support.
Everyone can read and decide for themsleves.
Hope you had a wonderful Thanksgiving! :rose:

I had a wonderful Thanksgiving , thank you. I hope you had the same.

How do you determine if someone "supports Natalee", by someone's post ??

JMO

[Heyes]

"In light of the new facts it seems they were on the right track all along". What facts are you referring to ??

JMO

The fact that the new evidence circles around,
(big surprise), J2K! That there is nothing, nada, zilch that points in any other direct but j2k. That they have been hauled backed into jail. It's possible fair, just possible, even now more probable, that these guys are responsible for Natalee's death and disappearance.
imo

[Heyes]

I had a wonderful Thanksgiving , thank you. I hope you had the same.

How do you determine if someone "supports Natalee", by someone's post ??

JMO

Thank you, I did have a lovely holiday.
Well to answer your question, when I see someone ( not you) post things like, "at this point I don't even care if they find Natalee". I would not call that poster a Natalee supporter. Would you?
IMO

[fairmaiden]

The fact that the new evidence circles around,
(big surprise), J2K! That there is nothing, nada, zilch that points in any other direct but j2k. That they have been hauled backed into jail. It's possible fair, just possible, even now more probable, that these guys are responsible for Natalee's death and disappearance.
imo

To be truthful, Heyes .... there are so many reports, it's hard to determine WHAT the evidence is ?? Do you know what it is ??

JMO

[No Nic]

To be truthful, Heyes .... there are so many reports, it's hard to determine WHAT the evidence is ?? Do you know what it is ??

JMO

I don't believe anyone knows what the evidence is at this point. But I have no doubt there is new evidence. IIRC, when JK2 were released we were told by those who purported themselves knowledgeable in Dutch law, that they could not be re-arrested without new evidence. Now that they have been re-arrested, those same posters are saying it is either old evidence or nothing at all, desperation, last stab, etc. Very contradictory, which is it? And they say WE don't understand their law. :confused:

IMO, there are some Joran supporters who do need a video tape of JK2 harming Natalee. No matter what the evidence is, they will not accept it. If they are convicted (IF), I have no doubt these posters will say they were railroaded, they may even say Beth made them do it. They may even start saying Aruba is corrupt, even tho they were upset when others said it. (lol) There is at least one poster over at CTV already saying "the interrogators are going to get a false confession, I will never believe JK2 are guilty". I have no doubt we will hear that same statement right here at CL since a lot of posters post at both places.

imo

[ortiga]

Did anyone hear anymore on the rumor that a 4th person was to be detained today? Apparently it didn't happen?

[Grandad]

<snip>
IIRC, when JK2 were released we were told by those who purported themselves knowledgeable in Dutch law, that they could not be re-arrested without new evidence.

<snip>


And there are those of us who have posted the suspects were detained because the prosecutor claims new and different suspicions.

[fairmaiden]

Did anyone hear anymore on the rumor that a 4th person was to be detained today? Apparently it didn't happen?

I didn't hear it at all, ortiga ....

I'm patiently waiting to see what it is they have. I must admit, I'm curious, that this length of time has passed, and now they claim to have "new evidence". I'm wondering why they didn't just charge them, if they are so sure Natalee is dead, and Joran et al are responsible.

JMO

[No Nic]

And there are those of us who have posted the suspects were detained because the prosecutor claims new and different suspicions.

For some reason I keep hearing the word evidence in the prosecutors statements. :shrug:

[HiLife]

I had a wonderful Thanksgiving , thank you. I hope you had the same.

How do you determine if someone "supports Natalee", by someone's post ??

JMO

Your question reminds me of a saying, "the best gift a father can give his children is to love their mother." When I saw your question, I immediately thought of this and turned it to the example of supporting Natalee.

How? Beth is Natalee's mother. Natalee surely loved her mother. Natalee would be very grieved to hear the bashing that has gone on of her mother, who has done nothing but try to find the truth behind what happened to her. No child appreciates anyone bad-mouthing their parents.

So by extension, I wholeheartedly believe........to support Beth, is to support Natalee. I believe Natalee would not have it any other way.


jmo

[ortiga]

I didn't hear it at all, ortiga ....

I'm patiently waiting to see what it is they have. I must admit, I'm curious, that this length of time has passed, and now they claim to have "new evidence". I'm wondering why they didn't just charge them, if they are so sure Natalee is dead, and Joran et al are responsible.

JMO

I think he's just trying to get one of them, any of them, to give him something, anything.

Apparently he gave each of the defense attorneys slightly difference declarations of "evidence", to try to trip them up.

But in this interview Mos seems quite defensive.

Says he is "trying to present new evidence"

Step to deciding whether to go to court

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2007/11/26/sot.hans.mos.holloway.cnn

[fairmaiden]

Your question reminds me of a saying, "the best gift a father can give his children is to love their mother." When I saw your question, I immediately thought of this and turned it to the example of supporting Natalee.

How? Beth is Natalee's mother. Natalee surely loved her mother. Natalee would be very grieved to hear the bashing that has gone on of her mother, who has done nothing but try to find the truth behind what happened to her. No child appreciates anyone bad-mouthing their parents.

So by extension, I wholeheartedly believe........to support Beth, is to support Natalee. I believe Natalee would not have it any other way.


jmo

Well, on the other hand, I think it's a little presumptious to allege, if one disagrees with Beth's actions in the past 2 1/2 years, they are not supportive of the truth being told. Frankly, I dislike all the terms we see on a constant basis .... "family supporters" .... "Joran supporters" .... and now, "Natalee supporters".

Don't you believe that anyone who has posted on this thread diligently for the past years, is interested in the outcome of this case .... regardless of what their opinion might be ??

Are you saying if one DOESN'T "support Beth" ((and by that I mean, approve of her actions in this case)), they don't support Natalee ((and by that I mean, wanting to find out what happened to her)) ??

JMO

[HiLife]

I don't believe anyone knows what the evidence is at this point. But I have no doubt there is new evidence. IIRC, when JK2 were released we were told by those who purported themselves knowledgeable in Dutch law, that they could not be re-arrested without new evidence. Now that they have been re-arrested, those same posters are saying it is either old evidence or nothing at all, desperation, last stab, etc. Very contradictory, which is it? And they say WE don't understand their law. :confused:

IMO, there are some Joran supporters who do need a video tape of JK2 harming Natalee. No matter what the evidence is, they will not accept it. If they are convicted (IF), I have no doubt these posters will say they were railroaded, they may even say Beth made them do it. They may even start saying Aruba is corrupt, even tho they were upset when others said it. (lol) There is at least one poster over at CTV already saying "the interrogators are going to get a false confession, I will never believe JK2 are guilty". I have no doubt we will hear that same statement right here at CL since a lot of posters post at both places.

imo

You've hit upon something interesting here, NN. Everything that is happening right now in Aruba is contrary to what has been said can or cannot be done, "according to Dutch law," for the last 2.5 years.

As you say, either those who purport to know Dutch law really do NOT, or it is that Dutch law is much more complicated than even the Dutch know. (which is what Dugo has said all along)

CTV is a blast to read! Little tolerance for those bashing the family!

jmo

[ortiga]

Your question reminds me of a saying, "the best gift a father can give his children is to love their mother." When I saw your question, I immediately thought of this and turned it to the example of supporting Natalee.

How? Beth is Natalee's mother. Natalee surely loved her mother. Natalee would be very grieved to hear the bashing that has gone on of her mother, who has done nothing but try to find the truth behind what happened to her. No child appreciates anyone bad-mouthing their parents.

So by extension, I wholeheartedly believe........to support Beth, is to support Natalee. I believe Natalee would not have it any other way.


jmo


Sure she probably loved her mother, most kids do love their parents no matter what. That basic sentiment, the human sentiment, is there through thick and thin, in families that are still a loving unit after all the years, like the VDS.................and in broken families like those of Beth's 2 failed marriages.

As long as the subject is open, I would prefer to think that Natalee would be absolutely incredulous and embarrassed at the personal things her mother has said about her, and that she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys. After all, she did go freely with Joran, she apparently liked him, there is no proof that he hurt her in any way. Maybe, if she died, she died happy that they had been friends, even for a short time, and happy at the fun she had had on that vacation.

I would prefer to think that Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line. And, I doubt that Natalee would want copies of her childhood dress sold on internet, and all those spinoffs like refer magnets, tshirts, etc. IIRC there was even a beer stein marketed with her name on it. I don't know who was getting the profits from these items.

Also I would bet that Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

If she is dead, I would predict that she is cringing at the things that her mother has disclosed about her, and if she is still alive, I would say it will take her years to get over what her mother has done. Maybe she will come back someday and forgive her mother. Most people do forgive, eventually.

IMO

[HiLife]

Sure she probably loved her mother, most kids do love their parents no matter what. That basic sentiment, the human sentiment, is there through thick and thin, in families that are still a loving unit after all the years, like the VDS.................and in broken families like those of Beth's 2 failed marriages.

As long as the subject is open, I would prefer to think that Natalee would be absolutely incredulous and embarrassed at the personal things her mother has said about her, and that she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys. After all, she did go freely with Joran, she apparently liked him, there is no proof that he hurt her in any way. Maybe, if she died, she died happy that they had been friends, even for a short time, and happy at the fun she had had on that vacation.

I would prefer to think that Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line. And, I doubt that Natalee would want copies of her childhood dress sold on internet, and all those spinoffs like refer magnets, tshirts, etc. IIRC there was even a beer stein marketed with her name on it. I don't know who was getting the profits from these items.

Also I would bet that Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

If she is dead, I would predict that she is cringing at the things that her mother has disclosed about her, and if she is still alive, I would say it will take her years to get over what her mother has done. Maybe she will come back someday and forgive her mother. Most people do forgive, eventually.

IMO

I think it will take a long while for me to fully digest this post and the thought process fueling it.

Here's what I got so far:

=====================
"Maybe if she died, she died happy....."

Natalee is suspected of being murdered and submerged in the sea - do you really think she died HAPPY?

"Unhappy with her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line...."

Do you really think Natalee would be unhappy with her mother going after the men who murdered her?

"she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys.

Can you seriously think Natalee wouldn't want her killers to be brought to justice? Why would Natalee give a flying fig about her murderers being accused? Why would Natalee care about J2K if they were the ones who killed her?

Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line.

See above response. And add to that, if Natalee is dead, which I believe she is, then this is all MOOT and silly to be speculating.

Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

Sometimes drastic action is necessary. Bethw as getting nowhere being nice. Aruban LE and officials put her through hell. Paulus sure didn't have any qualms about wringing $29,000 from the poor Aruban taxpayer for his arrest that was soley due to his son, Joran.

jmo

[No Nic]

Well, on the other hand, I think it's a little presumptious to allege, if one disagrees with Beth's actions in the past 2 1/2 years, they are not supportive of the truth being told. Frankly, I dislike all the terms we see on a constant basis .... "family supporters" .... "Joran supporters" .... and now, "Natalee supporters".

Don't you believe that anyone who has posted on this thread diligently for the past years, is interested in the outcome of this case .... regardless of what their opinion might be ??

Are you saying if one DOESN'T "support Beth" ((and by that I mean, approve of her actions in this case)), they don't support Natalee ((and by that I mean, wanting to find out what happened to her)) ??

JMO

Fair, I have a very hard time believing that all the outrageous, vile things that have been posted on these boards about Beth have went unseen by you. I also have a very hard time believing that you appreciate/approve them, that is not my impression of you from your posts. It goes WAY beyond "not supporting Beth".

I don't care who likes Beth, I don't care who supports Beth. I am thankful of all the support Beth has, but all that matters to me, personally, is that I support Beth and knowing that even if I didn't support her, I would never post the vile trash that some post day after day. I respect MYSELF much to much to ever act like that. There have been many posts towards Natalee in the same tone, I do not believe that those posters "support" Natalee.

I believe there are some that post on this board that DO NOT want the truth in this case, not if it proved Joran guilty. There are some that would never accept that Joran (forget K2, they could care less about them) had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance......AND they would NOT believe a video of the event, if shown one. They would say it was "Skeeterized". If Joran should confess, they would say "He was tortured". Why would they have this attitude, you may ask? I have absolutely NO IDEA.

I want the truth and I want Natalee returned to her family. When the road leads AWAY from JK2, when there is an iota of evidence that points to someone else, I could at the very least get back on the fence. BUT, to this day all roads lead to JK2 and this latest detention is just ANOTHER example of that road leading back to them.


imo

[HiLife]

Well, on the other hand, I think it's a little presumptious to allege, if one disagrees with Beth's actions in the past 2 1/2 years, they are not supportive of the truth being told. Frankly, I dislike all the terms we see on a constant basis .... "family supporters" .... "Joran supporters" .... and now, "Natalee supporters".

Don't you believe that anyone who has posted on this thread diligently for the past years, is interested in the outcome of this case .... regardless of what their opinion might be ??

Are you saying if one DOESN'T "support Beth" ((and by that I mean, approve of her actions in this case)), they don't support Natalee ((and by that I mean, wanting to find out what happened to her)) ??

JMO

Since you ask.

Two separate issues:

1) Findng out what happened to Natalee.

2) Bashing Natalee's mother.

I believe there can be disagreement with family members and their behavior, and still support Natalee. But when the talk crosses that line into the realm of disrespect, repetitive accusations and false, ugly rumors, it is bashing and does not in any way "support Natalee."

As adults here, it should be obvious what would be crossing a line when speaking about another person. Especially when speaking about someone who has gone through the worst tragedy imaginable. I don't think Natalee would view the bashing of her mother as honoring or supporting Natalee in any manner.

jmo

[Luke Davis]

AP (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g03xmlbMM0BjGFGrLokyvroCO6FwD8T5LMHO2)

"It seems like they shook the file, threw it on the table and qualified some things as new evidence," Kock told reporters at his office in Oranjestad. "This is unacceptable."

Wix said "90 to 95 percent" of the material in the summary file was not new.

"The legal basis for this detention is seriously questionable," Wix said. "You could almost say illegal."


:hat: All very predictable. MOO

[Chocoholic]

Sure she probably loved her mother, most kids do love their parents no matter what. That basic sentiment, the human sentiment, is there through thick and thin, in families that are still a loving unit after all the years, like the VDS.................and in broken families like those of Beth's 2 failed marriages.

As long as the subject is open, I would prefer to think that Natalee would be absolutely incredulous and embarrassed at the personal things her mother has said about her, and that she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys. After all, she did go freely with Joran, she apparently liked him, there is no proof that he hurt her in any way. Maybe, if she died, she died happy that they had been friends, even for a short time, and happy at the fun she had had on that vacation.

I would prefer to think that Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line. And, I doubt that Natalee would want copies of her childhood dress sold on internet, and all those spinoffs like refer magnets, tshirts, etc. IIRC there was even a beer stein marketed with her name on it. I don't know who was getting the profits from these items.

Also I would bet that Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

If she is dead, I would predict that she is cringing at the things that her mother has disclosed about her, and if she is still alive, I would say it will take her years to get over what her mother has done. Maybe she will come back someday and forgive her mother. Most people do forgive, eventually.

IMO

I'm not a "backslapping" WTG and "good post" kind of person, but this one requires my comment of:

OUTSTANDING!

[Chocoholic]

I think it will take a long while for me to fully digest this post and the thought process fueling it.

Here's what I got so far:

=====================
"Maybe if she died, she died happy....."

Natalee is suspected of being murdered and submerged in the sea - do you really think she died HAPPY?

"Unhappy with her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line...."

Do you really think Natalee would be unhappy with her mother going after the men who murdered her?

"she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys.

Can you seriously think Natalee wouldn't want her killers to be brought to justice? Why would Natalee give a flying fig about her murderers being accused? Why would Natalee care about J2K if they were the ones who killed her?

Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line.

See above response. And add to that, if Natalee is dead, which I believe she is, then this is all MOOT and silly to be speculating.

Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

Sometimes drastic action is necessary. Bethw as getting nowhere being nice. Aruban LE and officials put her through hell. Paulus sure didn't have any qualms about wringing $29,000 from the poor Aruban taxpayer for his arrest that was soley due to his son, Joran.

jmo

Considering OM hasn't laid any charges it's at this stage still a far cry from presuming that Natalee was killed. If there was new evidence to show that she was killed, the three would be facing trial. Right now they aren't.

Assuming that Natalee died, period is an assumption. Assuming that she died unhappily is a leap. I can assure you that if my mother spoke of me like beth has I would ensure I never tell anybody who I was or where I had gone.

IMO it's disgusting how beth portrayed her daughter and her private affairs for the world to gawk over.

Natalee has my support, beth never will.

[ortiga]

I think it will take a long while for me to fully digest this post and the thought process fueling it.

Here's what I got so far:

=====================
"Maybe if she died, she died happy....."

Natalee is suspected of being murdered and submerged in the sea - do you really think she died HAPPY?

"Unhappy with her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line...."

Do you really think Natalee would be unhappy with her mother going after the men who murdered her?

"she would run as fast as she could to get away from any family member who would get up and make those heinous accusations against the boys.

Can you seriously think Natalee wouldn't want her killers to be brought to justice? Why would Natalee give a flying fig about her murderers being accused? Why would Natalee care about J2K if they were the ones who killed her?

Natalee, like me, would be intolerant of her mother's accusations on TV, and would think that her mother acted grossly out of line.

See above response. And add to that, if Natalee is dead, which I believe she is, then this is all MOOT and silly to be speculating.

Natalee is/was the type of girl who would not want innocent children and families hurt by a boycott yielded like a club with Natalee's name used as the justification to hurt people in Aruba.

Sometimes drastic action is necessary. Bethw as getting nowhere being nice. Aruban LE and officials put her through hell. Paulus sure didn't have any qualms about wringing $29,000 from the poor Aruban taxpayer for his arrest that was soley due to his son, Joran.

jmo

"After all, she did go freely with Joran, she apparently liked him, there is no proof that he hurt her in any way."

[HiLife]

Fair, I have a very hard time believing that all the outrageous, vile things that have been posted on these boards about Beth have went unseen by you. I also have a very hard time believing that you appreciate/approve them, that is not my impression of you from your posts. It goes WAY beyond "not supporting Beth".

I don't care who likes Beth, I don't care who supports Beth. I am thankful of all the support Beth has, but all that matters to me, personally, is that I support Beth and knowing that even if I didn't support her, I would never post the vile trash that some post day after day. I respect MYSELF much to much to ever act like that. There have been many posts towards Natalee in the same tone, I do not believe that those posters "support" Natalee.

I believe there are some that post on this board that DO NOT want the truth in this case, not if it proved Joran guilty. There are some that would never accept that Joran (forget K2, they could care less about them) had anything to do with Natalee's disappearance......AND they would NOT believe a video of the event, if shown one. They would say it was "Skeeterized". If Joran should confess, they would say "He was tortured". Why would they have this attitude, you may ask? I have absolutely NO IDEA.

I want the truth and I want Natalee returned to her family. When the road leads AWAY from JK2, when there is an iota of evidence that points to someone else, I could at the very least get back on the fence. BUT, to this day all roads lead to JK2 and this latest detention is just ANOTHER example of that road leading back to them.

imo

I know Fair has to have seen all the posts you are alluding to in this fantastic post, NN. (No, Fair, I am not saying you made any such posts )

There have been some truly vile statements made on this board that in no way "support Natalee." How can one make vile statements one day, and the next, purport to care about Natalee? Doesn't compute.

It is like the IUPG "concept." It only applies to Joran (I, too, agree that the Kalpoes are not even a consideration!). But it does not apply to the security guards. How can it be only good for one and not the other? Total discrepancy.

You are right about the posters already making PRE-EXCUSES for anything pointing towards Joran. This is not a quest for truth. I'm not sure what would make someone who does not even know a person, defend them so vigorously in the face of so much CE? So many lies? It is what it is. :shrug:

jmo

[HiLife]

"After all, she did go freely with Joran, she apparently liked him, there is no proof that he hurt her in any way."

Oh, thanks for bringing this one up - I wanted to comment on that and forgot.

I believe she did freely go with Joran and probably did like him. Sociopaths can be charming and no girl would leave a bar with someone who was mean, rude or abusive! But I don't think Natalee bargained for the 3 men. I believe at some point she wanted to leave but could not.

There is a reason all 3 are back in jail. We shall see.

jmo

[HiLife]

<snipped>

Natalee has my support, beth never will.

After what I have seen posted as recently as yesterday, I disagree.

JMO

[ortiga]

Considering OM hasn't laid any charges it's at this stage still a far cry from presuming that Natalee was killed. If there was new evidence to show that she was killed, the three would be facing trial. Right now they aren't.

Assuming that Natalee died, period is an assumption. Assuming that she died unhappily is a leap. I can assure you that if my mother spoke of me like beth has I would ensure I never tell anybody who I was or where I had gone.

IMO it's disgusting how beth portrayed her daughter and her private affairs for the world to gawk over.

Natalee has my support, beth never will.

Over and over on this board we saw posters speculating at the "horror" Natalee must have experienced as she beat off her assailants and some even, IIRC, speculated that she was alive through all the horrible gang raping up until her violent murder.

I notice a big vacuum now in some of these discussions......now that rape is not on the prosecutors "suspected" agenda....nor is kidnapping or actual murder.

I would guess that if Natalee died she probably was in an fog from drinking a lot, and never realized she was taking that last breath of air or, unfortunately, of water. Better in my mind to think that she died without horrible trauma. For a loved one of mine, I could only fervently hope the very same thing.

This, until I see proof of the opposite.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

You are right about the posters already making PRE-EXCUSES for anything pointing towards Joran. This is not a quest for truth. I'm not sure what would make someone who does not even know a person, defend them so vigorously in the face of so much CE? So many lies? It is what it is. :shrug:

jmo

Do you know Natalee and beth personally? I highly doubt it yet you defend their actions all the time. So many lies? It is what it is. :shrug:

[HiLife]

Over and over on this board we saw posters speculating at the "horror" Natalee must have experienced as she beat off her assailants and some even, IIRC, speculated that she was alive through all the horrible gang raping up until her violent murder.

I notice a big vacuum now in some of these discussions......now that rape is not on the prosecutors "suspected" agenda....nor is kidnapping or actual murder.

I would guess that if Natalee died she probably was in an fog from drinking a lot, and never realized she was taking that last breath of air or, unfortunately, of water. Better in my mind to think that she died without horrible trauma. For a loved one of mine, I could only fervently hope the very same thing.

This, until I see proof of the opposite.

IMO

Again I ask: Why is it "better" they are charged with "only" voluntary manslaughter??? Murder is even worse than kidnapping and rape! (though I do think they did all three to Natalee)

As far as rape and kidnapping, sounds like Mos is going for what they actually have evidence of: murder. voluntary manslaughter is still murder. We can all use common sense to realize that if J2K did not allow Natalee to leave, they kidnapped her.

If they murdered her, we can all use common sense and realize they probably raped her. But "common sense" is not evidence and cannot be used in a court of law. Sounds like they are going with manslaughter because they can make it stick. It is my fervent hope they can prove it this time.

man·slaugh·ter –noun

1. Law. the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.
2. the killing of a human being by another; homicide.


jmo

[ortiga]

As far as rape and kidnapping, sounds like Mos is going for what they actually have evidence of: murder. voluntary manslaughter is still murder. We can all use common sense to realize that if J2K did not allow Natalee to leave, they kidnapped her.

If they murdered her, we can all use common sense and realize they probably raped her. But "common sense" is not evidence and cannot be used in a court of law. Sounds like they are going with manslaughter because they can make it stick. It is my fervent hope they can prove it this time.

man·slaugh·ter –noun

1. Law. the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought.
2. the killing of a human being by another; homicide.


jmo

Is that out of a Dutch legal dictionary, lol?

You can claim any crime you want to and say common sense says this happened, that happened.

Of course the boys have not yet been charged with a crime at all.

And I can say that common sense says that she died from drinking too much alcohol, and she died while voluntarily swimming while her senses were compromised.

IMO

[HiLife]

Do you know Natalee and beth personally? I highly doubt it yet you defend their actions all the time. So many lies? It is what it is. :shrug:

Huge difference. Natalee is a victim of murder and her mother is a victim. Nothing either one has said or done has caused this happen to them. Joran and the Kalpoes are suspected of murdering Natalee. Joran and the Kalpoes have lied about their involvement in this alleged murder.

If you cannot see a difference, there is nothing more to say.

jmo

[HiLife]

Is that out of a Dutch legal dictionary, lol?

You can claim any crime you want to and say common sense says this happened, that happened.

Of course the boys have not yet been charged with a crime at all.

And I can say that common sense says that she died from drinking too much alcohol, and she died while voluntarily swimming while her senses were compromised.

IMO

So now voluntary manslaughter in Dutch does not mean murder? Please.

jmo

[Grandad]

For some reason I keep hearing the word evidence in the prosecutors statements. :shrug:

We've been hearing about evidence from the prosecutor's office for almost two and a half years.

We haven't seen any, though.

[ortiga]

Huge difference. Natalee is a victim of murder and her mother is a victim. Nothing either one has said or done has caused this happen to them. Joran and the Kalpoes are suspected of murdering Natalee. Joran and the Kalpoes have lied about their involvement in this alleged murder.

If you cannot see a difference, there is nothing more to say.

jmo

A short week ago some were still going on and on about the "rape" and "kidnapping" although those were suspected crimes possibly to have been committed by suspects, not even alleged, charged, crimes. Posters spend months (years!!!!) stating those crimes were committed, as a fact, often forgetting to put a little IMO afterwards. Speculating as to how horrible it was for Natalee, and that we should imagine her terror, over and over.

In the meantime we've had a pretty big awakening as to the Dutch system.......that the initial suspicions can list many crimes and eventually be narrowed down or dropped altogether. A big awakening although Choco, the Aruban lawyers, and other posters with a background in Dutch law constantly tried to inform the board and/or the American cable public. With very few catching on, most preferring to pretend that it is the same as US law.

I say wait until some, any, charges are actually laid against the boys, and then WAIT some more until the judgement is made. There is no victim until there is a crime proven to have been committed. And, in my mind Beth, even if a crime is proven to have been committed, is not a victim at all. I think there are too many layers in these claims to being "victim". If Beth is a "victim", Matt is much more of a victim, and so are victims her father, her stepmother, her half sisters, her step father, her step brother and sister, and so forth. Let's save victimhood for people that are proven to be victims. IE the person that was proven to be hurt or killed.

To my mind, expanding the circle of victimhood farther and farther out soon resembles some kind of pop psychology exercise, victim hood to the nth degree.

IMO

[No Nic]

We've been hearing about evidence from the prosecutor's office for almost two and a half years.

We haven't seen any, though.

First time I have heard it from this prosecutor.

I hope we will be seeing it soon. Do you know that we won't?

[No Nic]

A short week ago some were still going on and on about the "rape" and "kidnapping" although those were suspected crimes possibly to have been committed by suspects, not even alleged, charged, crimes. Posters spend months (years!!!!) stating those crimes were committed, as a fact, often forgetting to put a little IMO afterwards. Speculating as to how horrible it was for Natalee, and that we should imagine her terror, over and over.

In the meantime we've had a pretty big awakening as to the Dutch system.......that the initial suspicions can list many crimes and eventually be narrowed down or dropped altogether. A big awakening although Choco, the Aruban lawyers, and other posters with a background in Dutch law constantly tried to inform the board and/or the American cable public. With very few catching on, most preferring to pretend that it is the same as US law.

I say wait until some, any, charges are actually laid against the boys, and then WAIT some more until the judgement is made. There is no victim until there is a crime proven to have been committed. And, in my mind Beth, even if a crime is proven to have been committed, is not a victim at all. I think there are too many layers in these claims to being "victim". If Beth is a "victim", Matt is much more of a victim, and so are victims her father, her stepmother, her half sisters, her step father, her step brother and sister, and so forth. Let's save victimhood for people that are proven to be victims. IE the person that was proven to be hurt or killed.

To my mind, expanding the circle of victimhood farther and farther out soon resembles some kind of pop psychology exercise, victim hood to the nth degree.

IMO


LOL, then stop doing it. No one has "expanded the circle" but you.

imo

[ortiga]

So now voluntary manslaughter in Dutch does not mean murder? Please.

jmo


No, from what I can see on the boards there is a term for murder, there is a another term for vountary manslaughter, something like doomslag. We might as well stick to what the suspected crime is (square peg), instead of trying to make it fit into the round hole of the American system. And, of course, wait until it is charged against the boys. See post above.


IMO

[ortiga]

Huge difference. Natalee is a victim of murder and her mother is a victim. Nothing either one has said or done has caused this happen to them. Joran and the Kalpoes are suspected of murdering Natalee. Joran and the Kalpoes have lied about their involvement in this alleged murder.

If you cannot see a difference, there is nothing more to say.

jmo


snipped There is no victim until there is a crime proven to have been committed. And, in my mind Beth, even if a crime is proven to have been committed, is not a victim at all. I think there are too many layers in these claims to being "victim". If Beth is a "victim", Matt is much more of a victim, and so are victims her father, her stepmother, her half sisters, her step father, her step brother and sister, and so forth. Let's save victimhood for people that are proven to be victims. IE the person that was proven to be hurt or killed.

To my mind, expanding the circle of victimhood farther and farther out soon resembles some kind of pop psychology exercise, victim hood to the nth degree.

IMO

LOL, then stop doing it. No one has "expanded the circle" but you.

imo

But, I think you are wrong. Actually I was not the one to claim that Beth is a victim. :read:

[Grandad]

First time I have heard it from this prosecutor.

I hope we will be seeing it soon. Do you know that we won't?

Since I'm not associated with the prosecutor's office I have no way of knowing, but I will be very surprised if we do.

[HiLife]

No, from what I can see on the boards there is a term for murder, there is a another term for vountary manslaughter, something like doomslag. We might as well stick to what the suspected crime is (square peg), instead of trying to make it fit into the round hole of the American system. And, of course, wait until it is charged against the boys. See post above.

IMO

So you are saying that all the Talking Heads, the attorneys, the translators have all got it wrong? When they say "voluntary manslaughter" - they are not translating properly?

Is this like the "Arrested" "Charged" "Detained" debate? lol!

jmo

[Luke Davis]

MANSLAUGHTER - The unlawful killing of a human being without malice or premeditation, either express or implied; distinguished from murder, which requires malicious intent.

The distinctions between manslaughter and murder, consists in the following: In the former, though the act which occasions the death be unlawful, or likely to be attended with bodily mischief, yet the malice, either express or implied, which is the very essence of murder, is presumed to be wanting in manslaughter.

It also differs from murder in this, that there can be no accessaries before the fact, there having been no time for premeditation. Manslaugbter is voluntary, when it happens upon a sudden heat; or involuntary, when it takes place in the commission of some unlawful act.

The cases of manslaughter may be classed as follows those which take place in consequence of: 1. Provocation. 2. Mutual combat. 3. Resistance to public officers, etc. 4. Killing in the prosecution of an unlawful or wanton act. 5. Killing in the prosecution of a lawful act, improperly performed, or performed without lawful authority.

The provocation which reduces the killing from murder to manslaughter is an answer to the presumption of malice which the law raises in every case of homicide; it is therefore no answer when express malice is proved and to be available the provocation must have been reasonable and recent, for no words or slight provocation will be sufficient, and if the party has had time to cool, malice will be inferred.


Law Library (http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m013.htm)

[ortiga]

So you are saying that all the Talking Heads, the attorneys, the translators have all got it wrong? When they say "voluntary manslaughter" - they are not translating properly?

Is this like the "Arrested" "Charged" "Detained" debate? lol!

jmo


I think it is useless to constantly try to put foreign terms, and foreign concepts into an American frame of reference. Better to try to understand the foreign concept in it's own frame of reference, sometimes there is no literal translation, sometimes there is no exact comparison to something in America.

That is what I am doing when I attempt to understand doomslag, if I have spelled it correctly. I don't think it is "murder".

[Luke Davis]

I think it is useless to constantly try to put foreign terms, and foreign concepts into an American frame of reference. Better to try to understand the foreign concept in it's own frame of reference, sometimes there is no literal translation, sometimes there is no exact comparison to something in America.

That is what I am doing when I attempt to understand doomslag, if I have spelled it correctly. I don't think it is "murder".

Language is sometimes a matter of necessity. The Eskimoes have 14 words for snow. I only need one.


MOO

[Chocoholic]

I think it is useless to constantly try to put foreign terms, and foreign concepts into an American frame of reference. Better to try to understand the foreign concept in it's own frame of reference, sometimes there is no literal translation, sometimes there is no exact comparison to something in America.

That is what I am doing when I attempt to understand doomslag, if I have spelled it correctly. I don't think it is "murder".

Doodslag (dood = dead) is not the same as moord which is the same as murder.

Links have already been provided to legal terms.

[No Nic]

So you are saying that all the Talking Heads, the attorneys, the translators have all got it wrong? When they say "voluntary manslaughter" - they are not translating properly?

Is this like the "Arrested" "Charged" "Detained" debate? lol!

jmo

I think the prosecutor knows exactly what he is saying when he says in English "voluntary manslaughter", I think he know he is letting us know that JK2, one, two or all of them voluntarily cause the death of Natalee Ann Holloway as they knew their actions could cause death. For anyone to attempt to make it something less, just because his first language is not English, might just as well call him illiterate. The man knows what he is saying. The man knows the definition of the English words "voluntary manslaughter". The man knows he is speaking to the American press.

Geeze, the spin....the spin...do they ever get dizzy and fall down? :D

imo

[ortiga]

Doodslag (dood = dead) is not the same as moord which is the same as murder.

Links have already been provided to legal terms.


OOps. Where did I get "doom", lol

[ortiga]

I think the prosecutor knows exactly what he is saying when he says in English "voluntary manslaughter", I think he know he is letting us know that JK2, one, two or all of them voluntarily cause the death of Natalee Ann Holloway as they knew their actions could cause death. For anyone to attempt to make it something less, just because his first language is not English, might just as well call him illiterate. The man knows what he is saying. The man knows the definition of the English words "voluntary manslaughter". The man knows he is speaking to the American press.

Geeze, the spin....the spin...do they ever get dizzy and fall down? :D

imo

Language differences are interesting. To me.

A person that does not find them interesting could feel dizzy at the prospect of trying to understand.

IMO

[Chocoholic]

Language is sometimes a matter of necessity. The Eskimoes have 14 words for snow. I only need one.


MOO

There is a Dutch word "gezellig", which comes close to the German "Gemutlich", which is sometimes loosely translated to "cozy", but I have yet to find a person that can properly translate the word "gezellig" into English. It describes a feeling of togetherness and fun and sharing.

Languages are funky and fascinating that way. The same goes for "doodslag".

[Chocoholic]

OOps. Where did I get "doom", lol

Dead, doom, they're both rather morbid.

[ortiga]

There is a Dutch word "gezellig", which comes close to the German "Gemutlich", which is sometimes loosely translated to "cozy", but I have yet to find a person that can properly translate the word "gezellig" into English. It describes a feeling of togetherness and fun and sharing.

Languages are funky and fascinating that way. The same goes for "doodslag".

I thought it would make a good nic = doodslag. Except for the meaning.

Gezellig? I woulda thought some weird pastry.

In any case, since someone may go to jail for a long time, and since someone may have died wrongfully, it pays to try to understand what the potential charges really are.

IMO

[No Nic]

Aruban prosecutor explaining to Greta:

Voluntary manslaughter is to kill a person with intent. Took an action that a reasonable person would know would likely cause death. He gave an example: If you took an ax and hit someone with it, you know it could kill them.

Seems clear to me.

No link, her program is on here as I type. I am sure this interview will be all over youtube soon.

imo

[HiLife]

Aruban prosecutor explaining to Greta:

Voluntary manslaughter is to kill a person with intent. Took an action that a reasonable person would know would likely cause death. He gave an example: If you took an ax and hit someone with it, you know it could kill them.

Seems clear to me.

No link, her program is on here as I type. I am sure this interview will be all over youtube soon.

imo

Glad you're on top of this, NN! It was simple to me. If the Aruban prosecutor is calling it "voluntary manslaughter" - then he must know. Thanks for clearing up the smoke and mirrors.

jmo

[ortiga]

So now voluntary manslaughter in Dutch does not mean murder? Please.

jmo

No, from what I can see on the boards there is a term for murder, there is a another term for vountary manslaughter, something like doomslag. We might as well stick to what the suspected crime is (square peg), instead of trying to make it fit into the round hole of the American system. And, of course, wait until it is charged against the boys. See post above.


IMO

Glad you're on top of this, NN! It was simple to me. If the Aruban prosecutor is calling it "voluntary manslaughter" - then he must know. Thanks for clearing up the smoke and mirrors.

jmo


But you, just a few posts ago, thought that manslaughter was murder.

That's what the conversation was all about, and I am glad you now understand it better.

IMO

[Heyes]

Glad you're on top of this, NN! It was simple to me. If the Aruban prosecutor is calling it "voluntary manslaughter" - then he must know. Thanks for clearing up the smoke and mirrors.

jmo

This time this prosector is making sure the public understands the charges NN has it word for word out of the prosecutors mouth. I watched it to. The attempt to try to change the meaning of what the prosecutor is stating is getting funny, talk about desperation. Wonder how many towels vandersloot needs tonight?
The "boys" (cough) are in deep this time. If this is a ploy to release and drop this case by the end of the year, aruba will face being a laughingstock forever. IMO.
This prosecutor doesn't come off like he wants to be a public joke anytime soon. Looks like charges may be in the "boys" future.
IMO
No matter how you look at it. it's murder! They caused bodily harm causing her death. Now their butts are behind bars. Just where they belong. I think it's great that the prosecutor saw how paulus and anita were interfering (obstructing) the investigation so no contact is allowed. Good! I wonder if anita will be chasing cars again if joran is transfered somewhere, demanding once again to see her baby boy, (barf). Let's hope they get it on film if she tries this pathetic move again.
IMO



All in my own opinion, of course!

[HiLife]

But you, just a few posts ago, thought that manslaughter was murder.

That's what the conversation was all about, and I am glad you now understand it better.

IMO

Yes, I understand perfectly. My opinion hasn't changed at all. It's like I've said all along - Voluntary manslaughter is murder. Hans Mos told Greta he wouldn't have charged it if he didn't have the evidence to back it up. Mr. Mos seems like a straight shooter and instills confidence this case will be resolved.

Manslaughter. Murder. Not premeditated, but murder just the same.

jmo

[HiLife]

This time this prosector is making sure the public understands the charges NN has it word for word out of the prosecutors mouth. I watched it to. The attempt to try to change the meaning of what the prosecutor is stating is getting funny, talk about desperation. Wonder how many towels vandersloot needs tonight?
The "boys" (cough) are in deep this time. If this is a ploy to release and drop this case by the end of the year, aruba will face being a laughingstock forever. IMO.
This prosecutor doesn't come off like he wants to be a public joke anytime soon. Looks like charges may be in the "boys" future.
IMO
No matter how you look at it. it's murder! They caused bodily harm causing her death. Now their butts are behind bars. Just where they belong. I think it's great that the prosecutor saw how paulus and anita were interfering (obstructing) the investigation so no contact is allowed. Good! I wonder if anita will be chasing cars again if joran is transfered somewhere, demanding once again to see her baby boy, (barf). Let's hope they get it on film if she tries this pathetic move again.
IMO

All in my own opinion, of course!

The truth is never complicated. The argument is weak when there is all this parsing and mincing, even when the parsing and mincing is proven wrong.

Hans Mos is a refreshing change from Karin Jaansen. Sounds like he is there to resolve the case, not further complicate it like KJ tried to do.

Those MEN have good reason to be shaking in their boots. Doesn't sound as easy as it was before for them to get away with all their lies. Mr. Mos is cutting down on the amount of obstruction (keeping the enabler VDS' away). He sounds like he has a plan and won't be made a fool of by these MEN any longer.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

Yes, I understand perfectly. My opinion hasn't changed at all. It's like I've said all along - Voluntary manslaughter is murder. Hans Mos told Greta he wouldn't have charged it if he didn't have the evidence to back it up. Mr. Mos seems like a straight shooter and instills confidence this case will be resolved.

Manslaughter. Murder. Not premeditated, but murder just the same.

jmo

Are you saying that Mr. Mos charged anybody with a crime? If so please show a credible link to back that up.

[Chocoholic]

Yes, I understand perfectly. My opinion hasn't changed at all. It's like I've said all along - Voluntary manslaughter is murder. Hans Mos told Greta he wouldn't have charged it if he didn't have the evidence to back it up. Mr. Mos seems like a straight shooter and instills confidence this case will be resolved.

Manslaughter. Murder. Not premeditated, but murder just the same.

jmo
Look you may wish to call is what you want but there are some things that can't be translated. Another word like that is "voorarrest" which is the time a person spends in jail or prision prior to be charged. Literally it means "pre-arrest". People that know the term but speak English usually just say "arrest" for ease of conversation.

[HiLife]

Look you may wish to call is what you want but there are some things that can't be translated. Another word like that is "voorarrest" which is the time a person spends in jail or prision prior to be charged. Literally it means "pre-arrest". People that know the term but speak English usually just say "arrest" for ease of conversation.

There really needs to be an easing of the constant "literal translation" problem here. Time to move on. I'm sure we can all understand the "ease of conversation" (well put, btw) necessity of some words.

I'm also sure that all the THs, attorneys, Aruban Officials (Hans Mos) wouldn't be using the term "voluntary manslaughter" if it were not true, or to indicate another meaning for the sake of "ease of conversation."

I cannot conceive there would be such a GAP/divide/mis-translation when speaking of something as serious as MURDER (which is what "voluntary manslaughter" is). Getting around this term using technicalities is not working and wasting bandwidth here.

It makes sense they are using the closest literal term for what they are suspecting of Joran and the Kalpoes. Voluntary Manslaughter. Murder. It is what it is.

jmo

[Chocoholic]

There really needs to be an easing of the constant "literal translation" problem here. Time to move on. I'm sure we can all understand the "ease of conversation" (well put, btw) necessity of some words.

I'm also sure that all the THs, attorneys, Aruban Officials (Hans Mos) wouldn't be using the term "voluntary manslaughter" if it were not true, or to indicate another meaning for the sake of "ease of conversation."

I cannot conceive there would be such a GAP/divide/mis-translation when speaking of something as serious as MURDER (which is what "voluntary manslaughter" is). Getting around this term using technicalities is not working and wasting bandwidth here.

It makes sense they are using the closest literal term for what they are suspecting of Joran and the Kalpoes. Voluntary Manslaughter. Murder. It is what it is.

jmo

Wrong again, in the transcript wtih Hans Mos and Greta he explains this. Murder is premeditated. Transcript available at RU. Either way, nobody has been charged, which means they still don't have enough evidence for their suspicions.

[Grandad]

There really needs to be an easing of the constant "literal translation" problem here. Time to move on. I'm sure we can all understand the "ease of conversation" (well put, btw) necessity of some words.

I'm also sure that all the THs, attorneys, Aruban Officials (Hans Mos) wouldn't be using the term "voluntary manslaughter" if it were not true, or to indicate another meaning for the sake of "ease of conversation."

I cannot conceive there would be such a GAP/divide/mis-translation when speaking of something as serious as MURDER (which is what "voluntary manslaughter" is). Getting around this term using technicalities is not working and wasting bandwidth here.

It makes sense they are using the closest literal term for what they are suspecting of Joran and the Kalpoes. Voluntary Manslaughter. Murder. It is what it is.

jmo

Why are all of you ignoring the phrase "or causing bodily harm which resulted in death?"

Do you believe that equates to murder also?

[HiLife]

Wrong again, in the transcript wtih Hans Mos and Greta he explains this. Murder is premeditated. Transcript available at RU.

Voluntary Manslaughter is killing someone without malice or premeditation. It is MURDER without premeditation - but still murder.

Seems you don't want to understand this and I will not engage further on this senseless merry-go-round. It is what it is. Murder.

voluntary manslaughter
: manslaughter resulting from an intentional act done without malice or premeditation and while in the heat of passion or on sudden provocation

jmo

[HiLife]

Why are all of you ignoring the phrase "or causing bodily harm which resulted in death?"

Do you believe that equates to murder also?

Of course it equates to murder.

How about if there is a barroom brawl and you beat someone up. They go to the hospital, in the critical care ward. I don't know the official charge, but you will be accused of causing bodily harm. THEN, after a couple days, say the person dies from the bodily harm you caused. I can guarantee you the charge will be upgraded to MURDER.

Another example is Nick Bollea (Hulk Hogan's son). He was the driver of the car, got into a serious accident, his passenger has been in a coma ever since. They have said that if this unfortunate person dies, Nick will be charged with murder.

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

Either way, nobody has been charged, which means they still don't have enough evidence for their suspicions.

I disagree.
It means the Prosecutor has not yet brought a summation to court, IMO.

[Chocoholic]

Of course it equates to murder.

How about if there is a barroom brawl and you beat someone up. They go to the hospital, in the critical care ward. I don't know the official charge, but you will be accused of causing bodily harm. THEN, after a couple days, say the person dies from the bodily harm you caused. I can guarantee you the charge will be upgraded to MURDER.

Another example is Nick Bollea (Hulk Hogan's son). He was the driver of the car, got into a serious accident, his passenger has been in a coma ever since. They have said that if this unfortunate person dies, Nick will be charged with murder.

jmo

They have said? You have a credible link to who this credible person is that stated that?

Let's also not forget one thing. The boys are being detained because the prosecution suspects that Natalee may be dead because she hasn't shown anywhere. Again, available in the transcript. There isn't any proof that she is dead or will die as the two examples you showed above.

[Chocoholic]

I disagree.
It means the Prosecutor has not yet brought a summation to court, IMO.

Feel free to disagree, has anybody been charged in a crime in this case and if not why not?

[Grandad]

Of course it equates to murder.

How about if there is a barroom brawl and you beat someone up. They go to the hospital, in the critical care ward. I don't know the official charge, but you will be accused of causing bodily harm. THEN, after a couple days, say the person dies from the bodily harm you caused. I can guarantee you the charge will be upgraded to MURDER.

Another example is Nick Bollea (Hulk Hogan's son). He was the driver of the car, got into a serious accident, his passenger has been in a coma ever since. They have said that if this unfortunate person dies, Nick will be charged with murder.

jmo

Both these arguments are specious.

[JustMyOpinion]

Feel free to disagree, has anybody been charged in a crime in this case and if not why not?

Nobody has been charged because they Prosecutor hasn't brought a summation to court. IMO.

[Grandad]

Voluntary Manslaughter is killing someone without malice or premeditation. It is MURDER without premeditation - but still murder.

Seems you don't want to understand this and I will not engage further on this senseless merry-go-round. It is what it is. Murder.

voluntary manslaughter
: manslaughter resulting from an intentional act done without malice or premeditation and while in the heat of passion or on sudden provocation

jmo

Maybe you should compare your definition of manslaughter to a definition of murder.

[Chocoholic]

Nobody has been charged because they Prosecutor hasn't brought a summation to court. IMO.
That's not what I gathered from the interview with Mos. Did you read it?

[JustMyOpinion]

That's not what I gathered from the interview with Mos. Did you read it?


Yes, I read it.

[Chocoholic]

Yes, I read it.

The transcript lacks the word "summation".

[Luke Davis]

Yes, I understand perfectly. My opinion hasn't changed at all. It's like I've said all along - Voluntary manslaughter is murder. Hans Mos told Greta he wouldn't have charged it if he didn't have the evidence to back it up. Mr. Mos seems like a straight shooter and instills confidence this case will be resolved.

Manslaughter. Murder. Not premeditated, but murder just the same.

jmo

I thought he explained it clearly. If you intend to kill someone ahd hit them in the head with aa axe, that is murder. If you intend to harm someone and hit them in the head with an axe that is voluntary manslaughter. If you are backing your car out of the driveway and run over someone that is involuntary manslaughter.


MOO

[Grandad]

<snip>
If you are backing your car out of the driveway and run over someone that is involuntary manslaughter.

MOO

Only if you were driving recklessly or irresponsibly, or didn't exercise due caution.

It's altogether possible it could be an accident.

It's possible the victim could be responsible.

[fairmaiden]

Only if you were driving recklessly or irresponsibly, or didn't exercise due caution.

It's altogether possible it could be an accident.

It's possible the victim could be responsible.

I would agree with this Grandad. In fact, my ex-husband's cousin backed out of his driveway, hitting and killing his son with his car. He was never charged with a crime .... it was a tragic accident.

JMO

[ortiga]

I would agree with this Grandad. In fact, my ex-husband's cousin backed out of his driveway, hitting and killing his son with his car. He was never charged with a crime .... it was a tragic accident.

JMO


Wow, FM, that's about as sad as it gets.

[HiLife]

I thought he explained it clearly. If you intend to kill someone ahd hit them in the head with aa axe, that is murder. If you intend to harm someone and hit them in the head with an axe that is voluntary manslaughter. If you are backing your car out of the driveway and run over someone that is involuntary manslaughter.

MOO

In all these type of scenarios, the person is killed. The act caused them to die. Murdered. Intentionally or not. Still dead.

jmo

[HiLife]

I would agree with this Grandad. In fact, my ex-husband's cousin backed out of his driveway, hitting and killing his son with his car. He was never charged with a crime .... it was a tragic accident.

JMO
What a horrible, horrible tragedy. The poor man.

[JustMyOpinion]

Only if you were driving recklessly or irresponsibly, or didn't exercise due caution.

It's altogether possible it could be an accident.

It's possible the victim could be responsible.

Voluntary manslaughter is an unlawful KILLING.
It is clear to me that the Prosecutor believes he has evidence that will prove person(s) killed Natalee Holloway.

[Heyes]

Of course it equates to murder.

How about if there is a barroom brawl and you beat someone up. They go to the hospital, in the critical care ward. I don't know the official charge, but you will be accused of causing bodily harm. THEN, after a couple days, say the person dies from the bodily harm you caused. I can guarantee you the charge will be upgraded to MURDER.

Another example is Nick Bollea (Hulk Hogan's son). He was the driver of the car, got into a serious accident, his passenger has been in a coma ever since. They have said that if this unfortunate person dies, Nick will be charged with murder.

jmo


Sounds like the prosecutor's case is obvious.
Natalee died at the hands of J2K!
It wasn't premeditated but they knew their actions could cause her death.
That is MURDER!
They killed her, whatever the wording!
IMO~
Bring on the trial!!!

[Grandad]

Voluntary manslaughter is an unlawful KILLING.
It is clear to me that the Prosecutor believes he has evidence that will prove person(s) killed Natalee Holloway.

It appears you're responding to my post.

How is your post relevant to mine?

[HiLife]

Sounds like the prosecutor's case is obvious.
Natalee died at the hands of J2K!
It wasn't premeditated but they knew their actions could cause her death.
That is MURDER!
They killed her, whatever the wording!
IMO~
Bring on the trial!!!
Truly, I am not getting the confusion with the word manslaughter. It's clear to me, premeditated or not, a person was killed.

jmo

[Heyes]

Truly, I am not getting the confusion with the word manslaughter. It's clear to me, premeditated or not, a person was killed.

jmo


I think it's been clear to us from the minute we heard about the false arrest of the security guards. There is no confusion here. joran and the kalpoes are in jail because the prosecutor believes, rightly so, that the three of them killed a young American tourist.
You'd be surprised how simple it is! :D
imo

[HiLife]

I think it's been clear to us from the minute we heard about the false arrest of the security guards. There is no confusion here. joran and the kalpoes are in jail because the prosecutor believes, rightly so, that the three of them killed a young American tourist.
You'd be surprised how simple it is! :D
imo
It's been a long, slow process. But everything the Holloway/Twittys have said is bearing out. The wait must be excruciating for them.

jmo

[Grandad]

<snip>
But everything the Holloway/Twittys have said is bearing out.

<snip>

Putting aside the fact you don't seem to grasp the difference betweem "murder" and "manslaughter", what happened to the kidnapping and rape?

[HiLife]

Putting aside the fact you don't seem to grasp the difference betweem "murder" and "manslaughter", what happened to the kidnapping and rape?

I'll ignore your snide remark and answer: Murder is probably the one they can make stick. It is enough to put them behind bars for a long time (for Aruba). That is enough, why complicate?

jmo

eta - and the kidnap and rape pale in comparison to murder, IMO.

[fairmaiden]

Wow, FM, that's about as sad as it gets.

It was, ortiga .... It was snowy, blustery, and he just didn't see him.

[fairmaiden]

It's been a long, slow process. But everything the Holloway/Twittys have said is bearing out. The wait must be excruciating for them.

jmo

HiLife .... I don't agree with this. Beth has made it a point for the past 2 1/2 years, of accusing Joran et al with kidnapping, raping, and murdering her daughter. She has not missed an opportunity to accuse them of these crimes. That's what we have seen on the board for a long time .... without question .... "kidnap, rape, and murder". How is this being borne out now ??

JMO

[HiLife]

HiLife .... I don't agree with this. Beth has made it a point for the past 2 1/2 years, of accusing Joran et al with kidnapping, raping, and murdering her daughter. She has not missed an opportunity to accuse them of these crimes. That's what we have seen on the board for a long time .... without question .... "kidnap, rape, and murder". How is this being borne out now ??

JMO

It is being borne out by the fact that the 3 men are back in jail. All roads lead back to J2K, FM. How can so many people in LE and others in criminal behavior "get it wrong?"

jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

HiLife .... I don't agree with this. Beth has made it a point for the past 2 1/2 years, of accusing Joran et al with kidnapping, raping, and murdering her daughter. She has not missed an opportunity to accuse them of these crimes. That's what we have seen on the board for a long time .... without question .... "kidnap, rape, and murder". How is this being borne out now ??

JMO

Authorities formerly detained J2K on suspicion of alleged crimes of kidnap, rape and murder, they have now detained them on suspicion of alleged crime of voluntary manslaughter. I don't understand what you are asking?

[fairmaiden]

It is being borne out by the fact that the 3 men are back in jail. All roads lead back to J2K, FM. How can so many people in LE and others in criminal behavior "get it wrong?"

jmo

But, to my knowledge, HiLife .... They haven't been CHARGED with anything. Why would the Prosecutor NOT charge, if he is sure of this "new evidence" ?? If he is convinced this is "voluntary manslaughter", why not charge ??

Are they doing what they did before .... hauling them into jail, THEN investigate the evidence ??

The fact that the Prosecutor is mentioning "voluntary manslaughter" ONLY, to date anyway, makes me think they will NOT charge anyone with rape, even though some are convinced Deepak admitted it on international television. I think that's significant. I think it proves Deepak was right to sue. I don't believe Natalee was raped .... evidently the Prosecutor doesn't either.

JMO

[Grandad]

I'll ignore your snide remark and answer: Murder is probably the one they can make stick. It is enough to put them behind bars for a long time (for Aruba). That is enough, why complicate?

jmo

eta - and the kidnap and rape pale in comparison to murder, IMO.

Referring to my "snide" remark, the current suspicions don't include murder.

[fairmaiden]

It's been a long, slow process. But everything the Holloway/Twittys have said is bearing out. The wait must be excruciating for them.

jmo

HiLife .... I don't agree with this. Beth has made it a point for the past 2 1/2 years, of accusing Joran et al with kidnapping, raping, and murdering her daughter. She has not missed an opportunity to accuse them of these crimes. That's what we have seen on the board for a long time .... without question .... "kidnap, rape, and murder". How is this being borne out now ??

JMO

Authorities formerly detained J2K on suspicion of alleged crimes of kidnap, rape and murder, they have now detained them on suspicion of alleged crime of voluntary manslaughter. I don't understand what you are asking?

I was responding to HiLife's post, JMO. If they are eventually charged with voluntary manslaughter, that does not bear out what has been said by Beth specifically, over the past 2 1/2 years.

JMO

[ortiga]

It's been a long, slow process. But everything the Holloway/Twittys have said is bearing out. The wait must be excruciating for them.

jmo


I don't see anything they said bearing out. Beth has not explained her lies, Dave said in his book the boys had confessed to gang rape (or at least he said that Deepak said that), Beth said Natalee was kidnapped, drugged, gang raped, and nothing of that is even alluded to by any one responsible in the case. I would say that almost nothing that Beth said has anything to do with reality, and she has some big apologies to spread around. Even what she tried to spread around about her daughter's exceptional qualities seems to have been greatly exaggerated, turns out that Natalee is just a normal teen as most are, drinking, smoking, flirting with guys via jello shots, and partying all day and into the night. Just like most of us did. If we are honest. Except for the jello shots, that was definitely not done when I was a teen and that was in the 70's when practically anything was OK.

IMO

[Grandad]

Authorities formerly detained J2K on suspicion of alleged crimes of kidnap, rape and murder, they have now detained them on suspicion of alleged crime of voluntary manslaughter. I don't understand what you are asking?

I think she's asking the same thing I am.

Do you think "manslaughter" includes "murder", "rape" and "kidnapping?"

[JustMyOpinion]

But, to my knowledge, HiLife .... They haven't been CHARGED with anything. Why would the Prosecutor NOT charge, if he is sure of this "new evidence" ?? If he is convinced this is "voluntary manslaughter", why not charge ??

Are they doing what they did before .... hauling them into jail, THEN investigate the evidence ??

The fact that the Prosecutor is mentioning "voluntary manslaughter" ONLY, to date anyway, makes me think they will NOT charge anyone with rape, even though some are convinced Deepak admitted it on international television. I think that's significant. I think it proves Deepak was right to sue. I don't believe Natalee was raped .... evidently the Prosecutor doesn't either.

JMO


A prosecutor will move forward with a summation to court when he is ready to present his case, IMO.
The fact is, J2K have been re-detained on suspicion of alleged crime of vm.
This indicates to me that the evidence shows the killing was not premeditated, IMO.
It doesn't indicate "the prosecutor doesn't believe she was raped", IMO.
When/if he brings a summation, he will try prove specific charges, IMO.. which may or may not include rape, IMO.

[ortiga]

I was responding to HiLife's post, JMO. If they are eventually charged with voluntary manslaughter, that does not bear out what has been said by Beth specifically, over the past 2 1/2 years.

JMO

It doesn't remotely correspond to what Beth accused them of. Nothing she said has been borne out, nothing she accused them of has been proven.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I think she's asking the same thing I am.

Do you think "manslaughter" includes "murder", "rape" and "kidnapping?"


I think the OP is perfectly capable of speaking for herself.
I think the alleged crime of vm indicates the evidence shows the killing was not premeditated, JMO
Whether or not the prosecutor brings a summation to court (which also includes alleged crime of kidnap and rape remains to be seen) IMO.

[HiLife]

But, to my knowledge, HiLife .... They haven't been CHARGED with anything. Why would the Prosecutor NOT charge, if he is sure of this "new evidence" ?? If he is convinced this is "voluntary manslaughter", why not charge ??

Are they doing what they did before .... hauling them into jail, THEN investigate the evidence ??

The fact that the Prosecutor is mentioning "voluntary manslaughter" ONLY, to date anyway, makes me think they will NOT charge anyone with rape, even though some are convinced Deepak admitted it on international television. I think that's significant. I think it proves Deepak was right to sue. I don't believe Natalee was raped .... evidently the Prosecutor doesn't either.

JMO

I really hope it is not like before, FM. But from what Mr. Mos says, it sounds like a different ball game this time around. I think they think it happened (the rape and kidnap) - it's just they cannot prove it for now. Manslaughter is enough. Rape and Kidnap pale in comparison to murder.

jmo

[HiLife]

A prosecutor will move forward with a summation to court when he is ready to present his case, IMO.
The fact is, J2K have been re-detained on suspicion of alleged crime of vm.
This indicates to me that the evidence shows the killing was not premeditated, IMO.
It doesn't indicate "the prosecutor doesn't believe she was raped", IMO.
When/if he brings a summation, he will try prove specific charges, IMO.. which may or may not include rape, IMO.

You say it so much better than I, JMO. Thanks.

jmo

[ortiga]

But, to my knowledge, HiLife .... They haven't been CHARGED with anything. Why would the Prosecutor NOT charge, if he is sure of this "new evidence" ?? If he is convinced this is "voluntary manslaughter", why not charge ??

Are they doing what they did before .... hauling them into jail, THEN investigate the evidence ??

The fact that the Prosecutor is mentioning "voluntary manslaughter" ONLY, to date anyway, makes me think they will NOT charge anyone with rape, even though some are convinced Deepak admitted it on international television. I think that's significant. I think it proves Deepak was right to sue. I don't believe Natalee was raped .... evidently the Prosecutor doesn't either.

JMO


I've seen the opinion posted in the last few days on another board that if Deepak and Satish are released, their position with respect to their suit against Phil is greatly strengthened, given that there are no longer the rape suspicions and other accusations that they IMO manipulated the tape to imply.

IMO

[Grandad]

I think the OP is perfectly capable of speaking for herself.
I think the alleged crime of vm indicates the evidence shows the killing was not premeditated, JMO
Whether or not the prosecutor brings a summation to court (which also includes alleged crime of kidnap and rape remains to be seen) IMO.

The prosecutor can bring only charges he has included in his suspicions.

This has been discussed often enough it shouldn't require a link.

[JustMyOpinion]

The prosecutor can bring only charges he has included in his suspicions.

.

Suspicions of rape, kidnap, murder have been included previously. He has added suspicion of VM, IMO.

[JustMyOpinion]

, given that there are no longer the rape suspicions and other accusations that they IMO manipulated the tape to imply.

IMO

Please link to a published statement from the Prosecutor saying there are no longer rape suspicions. TIA.

[Grandad]

Suspicions of rape, kidnap, murder have been included previously. He has added suspicion of VM, IMO.

No, he has not added suspicions. He has "replaced" the previous suspicions with suspicions of manslaughter, and, let's not forget, or inflicting bodily harm that led to death.

The suspects have been detained on the new suspicions. Not rearrested on the old ones. The old ones no longer exist.

[fairmaiden]

I've seen the opinion posted in the last few days on another board that if Deepak and Satish are released, their position with respect to their suit against Phil is greatly strengthened, given that there are no longer the rape suspicions and other accusations that they IMO manipulated the tape to imply.

IMO

ortiga .... I happen to think this is a HUGE issue, unlike some other people, I would imagine. Of course, I've thought it was a huge issue from the beginning.

Here we have a suspect who, according to many, including Beth .... ADMITTED to raping Natalee on international television ((the Dr. Phil fiasco)). Yet, the current Prosecutor doesn't even MENTION rape. I wonder if this is because he is well aware of DFI's findings that the Dr. Phil tape was manipulated ?? I wonder if he actually BELIEVES the tape was manipulated ??

JMO

[Grandad]

Please link to a published statement from the Prosecutor saying there are no longer rape suspicions. TIA.

It has been discussed here many times that the suspicions cannot be changed, altered or added to.

[ortiga]

Please link to a published statement from the Prosecutor saying there are no longer rape suspicions. TIA.

Please do link to my saying that the prosecutor said that, TIA.

Then, while you are at it, you can provide some of the links I have requested from you in the past that you haven't provided:

You would link to JK2 "admitting" that they "transported" Natalee away from the bar; that Deepak's car pulled away from the curb ; what exactly it was that Dave said about ALE not authorizing the FBI to come into Aruba, etc.

TIA.

[ortiga]

ortiga .... I happen to think this is a HUGE issue, unlike some other people, I would imagine. Of course, I've thought it was a huge issue from the beginning.

Here we have a suspect who, according to many, including Beth .... ADMITTED to raping Natalee on international television ((the Dr. Phil fiasco)). Yet, the current Prosecutor doesn't even MENTION rape. I wonder if this is because he is well aware of DFI's findings that the Dr. Phil tape was manipulated ?? I wonder if he actually BELIEVES the tape was manipulated ??

JMO

I would guess that Hans Mos is quite aware of the manipulated tape, and DFI's findings, lol. And it's HUGE that the rape suspicions are no longer on the board. Makes Beth look like the liar she is and always was in this case, way out on a limb all alone.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I would guess that Hans Mos is quite aware of the manipulated tape, and DFI's findings, lol.

IMO

Since the tape is not admissable evidence in Dutch/Aruban court, it is immaterial, IMO.

[Grandad]

I would guess that Hans Mos is quite aware of the manipulated tape, and DFI's findings, lol. And it's HUGE that the rape suspicions are no longer on the board. Makes Beth look like the liar she is and always was in this case, way out on a limb all alone.

IMO

I think regardless what the outcome is there will be an attempt at publishing another book.

[JustMyOpinion]

It has been discussed here many times that the suspicions cannot be changed, altered or added to.

I agree suspicions have not been changed or altered.
I have not heard any authority in Aruba say they cannot add ( if evidence is found that warrants it) JMO.

[JustMyOpinion]

No, he has not added suspicions. He has "replaced" the previous suspicions with suspicions of manslaughter, and, let's not forget, or inflicting bodily harm that led to death.

The suspects have been detained on the new suspicions. Not rearrested on the old ones. The old ones no longer exist.


I disagree.
The case was never closed, I think the old suspicions still "exist", JMO.

[HiLife]

I disagree.
The case was never closed, I think the old suspicions still "exist", JMO.


I totally agree. I believe they just can't make them stick for now. jmo

[JustMyOpinion]

I totally agree. I believe they just can't make them stick for now. jmo


I think rape would be difficult to prove, unless they have admissions or a confession, JMO

[Grandad]

I disagree.
The case was never closed, I think the old suspicions still "exist", JMO.

And some people still believe the earth is flat.

[ortiga]

I think regardless what the outcome is there will be an attempt at publishing another book.


Do you mean Beth? I'd say that the journal is worth a couple more books, but "authoring" a book for teens and then having the publisher say "Ages 18 and up" is a red flag in a surveyors field, I would say.

ISBN: 9780061452277; ISBN10: 0061452270; Imprint: HarperOne ; On Sale: 10/2/2007; Format: Hardcover; Trimsize: 6 x 9; Pages: 256; $24.95; Ages: 18 and Up

http://www.harpercollins.com/books/9780061452277/Loving_Natalee/index.aspx



Would that be the equivalent of an R rated movie?

http://www.mpaa.org/FlmRat_Ratings.asp
"Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian."

[HiLife]

I think rape would be difficult to prove, unless they have admissions or a confession, JMO

This is exactly what I think.

[terrysdoor]

Since the tape is not admissable evidence in Dutch/Aruban court, it is immaterial, IMO.

I wonder if Beth knoew it was not admissiable IMO she thought it was huge and would blow the case out of the water and seattle it all IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I wonder if Beth knoew it was not admissiable IMO she thought it was huge and would blow the case out of the water and seattle it all IMO


I don't think Beth cared if it was admissable, JMO.
If Deepak did admit they all had sex with Natalee, I think that is a huge admission, JMO.
( I believed Jamie Skeeters, and I hope the FBI has developed an actual transcript from his h/d that will be released to the public, someday).

[JustMyOpinion]

Transcript of Greta's interview last night with Hans Mos on On the Record/ Fox news.
Aruba's Chief Prosecutor on New Evidence Against Holloway Suspects
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

[JustMyOpinion]

I disagree.
The case was never closed, I think the old suspicions still "exist", JMO.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

SNIP:VAN SUSTEREN: Does your new evidence -- there are different types of murder, obviously, involuntary or voluntary manslaughter, and then there's murder. Does your new evidence suggest voluntary manslaughter?

MOS: Otherwise, we wouldn't have put it on the list of suspicions.

[fairmaiden]

This is exactly what I think.

But wasn't that the whole idea behind the Skeeter interview .... to get a confession ?? Don't you think Deepak ADMITTED to raping Natalee ??

JMO

[ortiga]

I don't think Beth cared if it was admissable, JMO.
If Deepak did admit they all had sex with Natalee, I think that is a huge admission, JMO.
( I believed Jamie Skeeters, and I hope the FBI has developed an actual transcript from his h/d that will be released to the public, someday).

Actually, the tape, as presented on Dr. Phil, had Deepak saying yes to the statement/question that Natalee had sex with all of them. Not the other way around as you state it. Big difference, IMO.

[ortiga]

I wonder if Beth knoew it was not admissiable IMO she thought it was huge and would blow the case out of the water and seattle it all IMO


I think she knew it was manipulated before it went on the air. I think she knew about it way before the show, and that she had ample time, and access, to turn it over to the authorities if she really had thought it was evidence of anything. Since she apparently did not ever turn it over, it shows that she knew it was worthless as evidence because of the manipulation. IMO

I think she used it as an excuse to accuse the boys of gang rape, not as a justification for saying it.

I think the whole manipulation of Deepak's words was planned for ratings for Phil, and for a platform for her accusations.

Imo

[terrysdoor]

But wasn't that the whole idea behind the Skeeter interview .... to get a confession ?? Don't you think Deepak ADMITTED to raping Natalee ??

JMO

Fair i thought that was the reason also but why play it on Dr. Phil before letting LE here i i just don`t understand that IMO

[terrysdoor]

I just read on Greta`s Gretawire that she is riding around Aruba with Jossy`s wife (she is showing them places to go and she speaks many languages)Greta said she just talked to Deepaks lawyer and to expect to hear from him tonihgt on her show IMO

[Luke Davis]

Voluntary manslaughter is an unlawful KILLING.
It is clear to me that the Prosecutor believes he has evidence that will prove person(s) killed Natalee Holloway.Many prosecuters have believed they had enough evidence.


MOO

[ortiga]

I just read on Greta`s Gretawire that she is riding around Aruba with Jossy`s wife (she is showing them places to go and she speaks many languages)Greta said she just talked to Deepaks lawyer and to expect to hear from him tonihgt on her show IMO


Doesn't she say she went to PVDS' home? Has she no shame?

[Luke Davis]

Sounds like the prosecutor's case is obvious.
Natalee died at the hands of J2K!
It wasn't premeditated but they knew their actions could cause her death.
That is MURDER!
They killed her, whatever the wording!
IMO~
Bring on the trial!!!

Bring on the trial!

ITA

[ortiga]

Many prosecuters have believed they had enough evidence.


MOO


What was that guy's name again.. .dipthong? Nithong?

[Luke Davis]

Truly, I am not getting the confusion with the word manslaughter. It's clear to me, premeditated or not, a person was killed.

jmo
I think the confusion is over intent.

A few parents have left their babies in a car. The baby died. It wasn't the baby's fault.


Was it murder? Manslaughter? Accident?


:shrug:

[terrysdoor]

Doesn't she say she went to PVDS' home? Has she no shame?

yes she did say that but noone was home IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

I think the confusion is over intent.



I disagree. I feel no confusion.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

MOS: Voluntary manslaughter under Aruban law is the situation that you kill a person with intent, and the question is if it is premeditated intent, which should be murder -- we scratch (ph) through the murder suspicion because we don't have any evidence of that, there is premeditation on the killing of this girl.

But if you, for example, take an axe with the intention to just hit a person to make him suffer and have pain, but you hit the axe on the head with force, then you should take into account that this person can be killed within that action. That's a risk you take. And that was what we mean with voluntary manslaughter.

[Luke Davis]

I've seen the opinion posted in the last few days on another board that if Deepak and Satish are released, their position with respect to their suit against Phil is greatly strengthened, given that there are no longer the rape suspicions and other accusations that they IMO manipulated the tape to imply.

IMOHow can that be? Deepak admitted on international television err... so I was told. MOO

[Luke Davis]

I would guess that Hans Mos is quite aware of the manipulated tape, and DFI's findings, lol. And it's HUGE that the rape suspicions are no longer on the board. Makes Beth look like the liar she is and always was in this case, way out on a limb all alone.

IMOI wonder if Hans Mos felt the world shake when it was announced?

MOO

[Grandad]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

SNIP:VAN SUSTEREN: Does your new evidence -- there are different types of murder, obviously, involuntary or voluntary manslaughter, and then there's murder. Does your new evidence suggest voluntary manslaughter?

MOS: Otherwise, we wouldn't have put it on the list of suspicions.


Yes, there is a LIST of suspicions.

The LIST includes "manslaughter", and it also includes "causing bodily harm that resulted in death."

It's a short LIST , but it is a LIST .

[No Nic]

Bwahahahahahahahahahaha, he'd better get used to it, I think he will be there awhile.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/27/holloway.arrest/index.html

[Grandad]

Transcript of Greta's interview last night with Hans Mos on On the Record/ Fox news.
Aruba's Chief Prosecutor on New Evidence Against Holloway Suspects
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

From your link: "And what we think is very important, at least the Dutch suspect, instead of the two Surinams, and his father, who was one way or another involved in this case, has said in interviews that they are willing to talk. They are willing to disclose what happened in the past at a time set by them. And we think it is very important that this is the time to disclose this information to the public and to us because their point of view is, their son or this suspect, this Dutch suspect, didn't do anything, but he has information and he doesn't give it. We think that's unthinkable.

If we have this information we have right now, then he should disclose this information to us. The same counts for the other two suspects, who also have said, at least one of them, that he will disclose it in due time, that he is not involved. Well, let him disclose it because we are only seeking the truth, what happened. That's what we are aiming for. And if this information given by them shows that they are not involved, then they will not be prosecuted. But we don't think that that's the case."

Seems to me the "new evidence" is a wish that one suspect will turn on another.

[ortiga]

From your link: "And what we think is very important, at least the Dutch suspect, instead of the two Surinams, and his father, who was one way or another involved in this case, has said in interviews that they are willing to talk. They are willing to disclose what happened in the past at a time set by them. And we think it is very important that this is the time to disclose this information to the public and to us because their point of view is, their son or this suspect, this Dutch suspect, didn't do anything, but he has information and he doesn't give it. We think that's unthinkable.

If we have this information we have right now, then he should disclose this information to us. The same counts for the other two suspects, who also have said, at least one of them, that he will disclose it in due time, that he is not involved. Well, let him disclose it because we are only seeking the truth, what happened. That's what we are aiming for. And if this information given by them shows that they are not involved, then they will not be prosecuted. But we don't think that that's the case."

Seems to me the "new evidence" is a wish that one suspect will turn on another.

If he is referring to what Joran said on the ACA interview, that is pathetically weak from the prosecutor. I wonder if they really do want made public the tinest details of what Natalee said that night and the personal details of their make out session, as I believe that is what he was referring to. The reporter also asked him if he had sex with Natalee and Joran said first of all that's none of your business. He was ambushed that day, it was none of the reporters business, and Joran took the high road in the interview.

IMO

[JustMyOpinion]

Seems to me the "new evidence" is a wish that one suspect will turn on another.

That's not how it "seems" to me.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
VAN SUSTEREN: Since you've been here, you've actually sort of surprised all of us when a press release came out saying that there had been new evidence that has led to the arrests. How do you define new evidence?

MOS: New evidence is evidence that we didn't have before. As simple as that.

[No Nic]

If he is referring to what Joran said on the ACA interview, that is pathetically weak from the prosecutor. I wonder if they really do want made public the tinest details of what Natalee said that night and the personal details of their make out session, as I believe that is what he was referring to. The reporter also asked him if he had sex with Natalee and Joran said first of all that's none of your business. He was ambushed that day, it was none of the reporters business, and Joran took the high road in the interview.

IMO

Joran has never been on a "high road" in his life, imo.

Yeah, he told the reporter "none of your business" out of one side of his mouth, then out of the other side, he answered the question.

Nothing Joran has stated about that night has been coroborated to this date, lies, nothing but lies, do you really think anyone but those who worship him will believe him? I don't.

imo

[Grandad]

That's not how it "seems" to me.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html
VAN SUSTEREN: Since you've been here, you've actually sort of surprised all of us when a press release came out saying that there had been new evidence that has led to the arrests. How do you define new evidence?

MOS: New evidence is evidence that we didn't have before. As simple as that.

OK, he's defined "new evidence." The question is, can he produce it?

[Grandad]

<snip>
Nothing Joran has stated about that night has been coroborated to this date

<snip>

I really have forgotten. Didn't Beth agree with Joran on what underwear Natalee was wearing?

[HiLife]

Poor Joran. Complaining already? What did he think Jail was? A country club? Oh, my. He's even asking for a Bible *chuckle*. What a good, religious boy. WWJD if He heard Joran saying "FtheB."

Joe Tacopina has become quite the drama queen. Nazi Germany?? How dare he demean true suffering. Despicable.

jmo

================================

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/27/holloway.arrest/index.html

It's just so ridiculous, these restrictions, " Tacopina said.

"These are tactics reminiscent of Nazi Germany," he added. "How could reading a book or the Bible possibly affect their investigation?"

[Grandad]

<snip>

"How could reading a book or the Bible possibly affect their investigation?"

How can anyone disagree with this?

[JustMyOpinion]

OK, he's defined "new evidence." The question is, can he produce it?


He has it, therefore I have no doubt he can produce it.
The question is, will he bring a summation to court?, IMO.

[HiLife]

I disagree. I feel no confusion.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

MOS: Voluntary manslaughter under Aruban law is the situation that you kill a person with intent, and the question is if it is premeditated intent, which should be murder -- we scratch (ph) through the murder suspicion because we don't have any evidence of that, there is premeditation on the killing of this girl.

But if you, for example, take an axe with the intention to just hit a person to make him suffer and have pain, but you hit the axe on the head with force, then you should take into account that this person can be killed within that action. That's a risk you take. And that was what we mean with voluntary manslaughter.

Thanks so much for posting this, JMO! I can see why some people are finding this confusing. But it is still murder.

jmo

[HiLife]

How can anyone disagree with this?

How? We're talking about Joran.

jmo