Discussion Thread 2007 (Part 6) [Archive] - Page 2

Luke Davis

11-22-2007, 01:55 PM

Hi. Im living in the Netherlands. I cant give links, as the info will be written in Dutch. I followed the news the last couple of hours. To my understanding:

* Joran van der Sloot will be flown to Aruba tomorrow (fri 23 nov)
* He is being held in custody in the city of Arnhem at the policestation (the Netherlands, and the city where he lives) until he flies to Aruba tomorrow.
* There is no release of ANY new evidence, as the prosecution wants
Joran's unprepared reaction to the new evidence (and it is only logical it will be handled this way)
* Joran has been arrested (I noticed there was some confusion about this earlier on in the thread, not sure if I got that confusion correctly, but the news here says he has been arrested).

If there is any more news, I will post it and try to help with any unclarities/confusion.

nately :)

Thanks nately, it is much appreciated. Welcome aboard.:seeya:

No Nic

11-22-2007, 01:59 PM

Hi. Im living in the Netherlands. I cant give links, as the info will be written in Dutch. I followed the news the last couple of hours. To my understanding:

* Joran van der Sloot will be flown to Aruba tomorrow (fri 23 nov)
* He is being held in custody in the city of Arnhem at the policestation (the Netherlands, and the city where he lives) until he flies to Aruba tomorrow.
* There is no release of ANY new evidence, as the prosecution wants
Joran's unprepared reaction to the new evidence (and it is only logical it will be handled this way)
* Joran has been arrested (I noticed there was some confusion about this earlier on in the thread, not sure if I got that confusion correctly, but the news here says he has been arrested).

If there is any more news, I will post it and try to help with any unclarities/confusion.

nately :)

Welcome, nately, much appreciated. Look forward to more of your post. Thanks.

Luke Davis

11-22-2007, 02:00 PM

You're right, ortiga .... It's all a little confusing. I think you're right though, they've never released ANY evidence they may have, to my knowledge. I bet they mean .... release it to the judge.

JMOI bet you are right fairmaiden! Things are getting lost in translation. Waiting for Beth to complain about news breaking on Thanksgiving.

:hat:

Looks like Dave has jumped into action!

This could really boost book sales!

I really hope it is something but I am beginning to doubt it.:shrug:

Luke Davis

11-22-2007, 02:09 PM

On Thursday, a Dutch judge confirmed that van der Sloot had been arrested properly, clearing the way for his transfer to Aruba within days, the island's prosecutor Dop Kruimel said in a telephone interview.

Van der Sloot's Dutch attorney, Leon van den Eeden, criticized the decision, saying his client had worked hard to build a life in the Netherlands.

radio report

Luke Davis

11-22-2007, 02:15 PM

transfer approved (http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3902956&page=1)

In a closed hearing that lasted just over a half hour, a court in Arnhem confirmed Van der Sloot's identity and said that he had been arrested properly - clearing the way for his transfer to Aruba, prosecutor Dop Kruimel said in a telephone interview.

Kruimel said Van der Sloot will be flown to Aruba within days. Van der Sloot's Dutch attorney, Leon van den Eeden, criticized the decision to send his client to Aruba after he had worked hard to build a life in the Netherlands

:hat:

HiLife

11-22-2007, 06:00 PM

:seeya: HAPPY THANKSGIVING to all! (and many more THANKS for this news!)

I'm currently away on vacation for the holiday (away from phone and internet :( ) and happened to see this news while in town.....I'm blown away! So this is a drive-by post. Can't wait till Friday to see what happens in court!

Something's breaking! I can only hope and pray we, and more importantly, Natalee's family, will know what happened to her and justice can be served!

-----------------------------------------
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071122/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aruba_missing_teen;_ylt=Ag0spVRgANPPbCiavYOn4iys0N UE

a search for evidence of her remains in waters off Aruba, he said Thursday after police re-arrested three suspects in her 2005 disappearance.

ADVERTISEMENT

While authorities searched the sea to depths of 330 feet, Dave Holloway told The Associated Press that he believes his 18-year-old daughter was thrown into deeper waters — a belief based on talks with a police official and a private forensic expert.

Holloway said a private boat owner is providing divers, sonar equipment and the ability to map the ocean floor.

"It's like this: we've searched all the land areas ... It's common knowledge on the island that if someone were to dispose of the body, it would be out in the ocean," he said by telephone

Holloway said he would alert police on the Dutch Caribbean island if anything is found.

Authorities announced Wednesday they had found "new incriminating evidence" and re-arrested three men — Dutch student Joran van der Sloot and brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe of Suriname — on suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm that resulted in Holloway's death.

"I hope I'm not going to be disappointed," Dave Holloway said. "We've seen these arrests and re-arrests in the past."

The 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Ala., was last seen leaving a bar with the three men on May 30, 2005, hours before she was scheduled to fly home with high school classmates celebrating their graduation.

A search by hundreds of volunteers, soldiers, police and FBI agents — even Dutch air force planes — turned up no trace of her.

Van der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers were first detained in June 2005, but they denied involvement in the woman's death and a judge later released them for lack of evidence.

Van der Sloot, 20, was re-arrested in the Netherlands, where he was attending a university. The Kalpoe brothers — Deepak is 24, Satish, 21 — were taken into custody in Aruba.

On Thursday, a Dutch judge cleared the way for van der Sloot's transfer to Aruba within days, prosecutor Dop Kruimel said in a telephone interview.

Van der Sloot's mother, Anita, said by telephone that investigators had recently questioned her family and that of the Kalpoe brothers.

"The questions they asked were so obvious: things like, 'Why did Joran leave his shoes on the beach?'" she said, referring to the place where her son said he kissed Holloway alone before her disappearance. "I think it's ridiculous after two-and-a-half years to be doing this."

The brothers were expected to make an initial appearance in an Aruba court Friday, when prosecutors were expected to present the new evidence to a judge.

They are being held in separate jails, and Aruba's chief prosecutor Hans Mos said prosecutors believe they should be represented by separate attorneys to prevent a conflict of interest.

The Kalpoes' attorney, David Kock, did not return a call for comment Thursday, but he told a local radio station that the arrests were "an action of despair."

"There was no reason for their arrest now," he said. "We will take all kinds of measures to give our clients their freedom as soon as possible."

In April, investigators from the Netherlands dug around the home of van der Sloot's family for two days without revealing what prompted the search. Then in May, Dutch and Aruban investigators visited the home where Deepak and Satish Kalpoe live with their parents for what authorities called an "inspection."

____

Luke Davis

11-22-2007, 08:49 PM

docwho3

11-22-2007, 11:05 PM

fairmaiden

11-22-2007, 11:37 PM

The court hearing that was held to determine if Joran had to return to Aruba: So was that hearing just something automatically done under the laws of that country or was Joran requesting the hearing and trying to avoid justice as so many criminals fight extradition?

doc .... It's my opinion, that since the Kingdom of the Netherlands includes Aruba .... there is no need for "extradition". Joran is to arrive in Aruba tomorrow, IIRC .... the last I heard.

I'm not sure he has been proven to be a "criminal" yet. Hopefully within the next couple of days, all of us might know more as to what the "new evidence" might be.

JMO

No Nic

11-22-2007, 11:41 PM

article, video, slideshow (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071122/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aruba_missing_teen)

The Associated Press that he believes his 18-year-old daughter was thrown into deeper waters — a belief based on talks with a police official and a private forensic expert.

From the link above.

"The questions they asked were so obvious: things like, 'Why did Joran leave his shoes on the beach?'" she said, referring to the place where her son said he kissed Holloway alone before her disappearance. "I think it's ridiculous after two-and-a-half years to be doing this."

If it was her son that she had not seen for those 2 1/2 years and she had no idea what happened to him, would this *classy* lady be calling the investigation ridiculous? What is she afraid the questioning might reveal?

Why Oh Why does Anita LIE ??

imo

SukiJane

11-23-2007, 12:15 AM

That seems to be a fair summary from what has been reported, also there is some doubt as to whether Joran was taken into custody from his home, or whether he went voluntarily to the police station in Arnheim.

(snipped)
IMO

Isn't it weird that some of us have the same doubts about where Paulus was arrested too? Weird and suspicious behavior surrounds this family, in my opinion.

jmo

SukiJane

11-23-2007, 12:27 AM

Grandad is absolutely correct:

"However, giving them the benefit of the doubt, "suspicion of involvement in manslaughter and causing seriously bodily harm that caused the death of the 18-year-old American" is a far cry from kidnapping, rape and murder."

(snipped)
IMO

As far as manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm goes...

It's a far cry from being totally innocent of any and all involvement in Natalee's disappearance too!!

It's a far cry from an innocent Joran leaving Natalee on the beach as she requested.

It's a far cry from Natalee drifting out to sea because she was drunk.

It's a far cry from Natalee taking the wooden boat and living the good life in Venezuela.

It's a far cry from someone else coming along after Joran and harming Natalee.

jmo

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 12:31 AM

The team will be working off of a theory put forward by a Birmingham forensic psychiatrist. Natalee Holloway's father, Dave, hopes Dr. Andrew Hodges theory will help the team find some answers.

FOX (http://www.myfoxal.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5012739&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)

Dr. Andrew Hodges (http://forensicthoughtprints.com/contact.html)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/415GZwqkOXL._SS500_.jpg

IS THIS THE NEW EVIDENCE?

Grandad

11-23-2007, 12:38 AM

As far as manslaughter and causing serious bodily harm goes...

It's a far cry from being totally innocent of any and all involvement in Natalee's disappearance too!!

It's a far cry from an innocent Joran leaving Natalee on the beach as she requested.

It's a far cry from Natalee drifting out to sea because she was drunk.

It's a far cry from Natalee taking the wooden boat and living the good life in Venezuela.

It's a far cry from someone else coming along after Joran and harming Natalee.

jmo

And, most importantly, it's still nothing more than a suspicion.

Incidentally, it's been changed to suspicion of manslaughter or causing serious bodily harm.

docwho3

11-23-2007, 12:42 AM

doc .... It's my opinion, that since the Kingdom of the Netherlands includes Aruba .... there is no need for "extradition". Joran is to arrive in Aruba tomorrow, IIRC .... the last I heard. . . On the news tonight they referred to it as "extradition" and they evidently did hold a hearing about it (otherwise why did a judge in Holland have to issue an order about it) and thats why I asked.

"Judge in Holland orders extradition of Dutch man to Aruba"
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/22/holloway.arrest/?iref=mpstoryview

. . .I'm not sure he has been proven to be a "criminal" yet. Hopefully within the next couple of days, all of us might know more as to what the "new evidence" might be.

JMO I have never seen a case where an innocent man fought extradition to return to his home to face an investigation or charges. While I was not calling Joran a criminal, I asked if he was "trying to avoid justice as so many criminals fight extradition?". In other words, was he exhibiting the same behaviors a criminal might exhibit in the same circumstances?

All this goes to the heart of my question: Was he trying to avoid facing the investigation and/or charges? Such behavior might indicate guilt of some sort. Or was this a hearing that automatically had to be held without Jorans requesting it or his consent? If it was automatic and not dependant upon his direction or consent or wishes then the hearing does not make him look guilty. The possible implications were what I was exploring with my questions.

". . . Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office, said van der Sloot could be sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing and the transfer would occur "within several days.". . ."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest.ap/index.html

". . .A district court judge in the Netherlands ordered Thursday that van der Sloot be extradited to Aruba for questioning. He was to leave as soon as possible, authorities said. . ."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/22/holloway.arrest/index.html

SukiJane

11-23-2007, 12:50 AM

FOX (http://www.myfoxal.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=5012739&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1)

Dr. Andrew Hodges (http://forensicthoughtprints.com/contact.html)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/415GZwqkOXL._SS500_.jpg

IS THIS THE NEW EVIDENCE?

Gawd, I hope not!!

jmo

Grandad

11-23-2007, 01:00 AM

On the news tonight they referred to it as "extradition" and they evidently did hold a hearing about it (otherwise why did a judge in Holland have to issue an order about it) and thats why I asked.

"Judge in Holland orders extradition of Dutch man to Aruba"
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/22/holloway.arrest/?iref=mpstoryview

I have never seen a case where an innocent man fought extradition to return to his home to face an investigation or charges. While I was not calling Joran a criminal, I asked if he was "trying to avoid justice as so many criminals fight extradition?". In other words, was he exhibiting the same behaviors a criminal might exhibit in the same circumstances?

All this goes to the heart of my question: Was he trying to avoid facing the investigation and/or charges? Such behavior might indicate guilt of some sort. Or was this a hearing that automatically had to be held without Jorans requesting it or his consent? If it was automatic and not dependant upon his direction or consent or wishes then the hearing does not make him look guilty. The possible implications were what I was exploring with my questions.

". . . Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch national prosecutor's office, said van der Sloot could be sent to Aruba without an extradition hearing and the transfer would occur "within several days.". . ."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/21/holloway.arrest.ap/index.html

". . .A district court judge in the Netherlands ordered Thursday that van der Sloot be extradited to Aruba for questioning. He was to leave as soon as possible, authorities said. . ."
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/11/22/holloway.arrest/index.html

For two and a half years American reporters and talking heads have been ignoring the subtle differences between Aruban/Dutch law and American law
and the different meanings that certain terms have in each system.

Because Aruba is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, extradition is not necessary.

The prosecutor asks a judge to approve a transfer. At that hearing which is mandatory, the judge determines if the arrest and certain other things are proper, and if he feels they are he grants the transfer.

The suspect can petition the court to deny the transfer, but the threshold necessary to grant the transfer is very low, and few petitions are approved.

It has been reported Joran did not petition for the request to be denied, and actually volunteered to be returned to Aruba.

Links to all of this have already been posted, so if you have any doubts, start reading earlier posts.

No Nic

11-23-2007, 01:19 AM

And, most importantly, it's still nothing more than a suspicion.

Incidentally, it's been changed to suspicion of manslaughter or causing serious bodily harm.

This DUTCH report does not agree with what you posted as *fact*. Please provide a link supporting your statement.

The suspects are now charged with invotvement in the voluntary

manslaughter on Natalee Holloway or causing serious bodily harm to

Natalee Holloway, resulting in her death.

Grandad

11-23-2007, 01:28 AM

This DUTCH report does not agree with what you posted as *fact*. Please provide a link supporting your statement.

I dont see your link.

But here's a link. You actually posted it. Post #201.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37046.php

"ORANJESTAD - Joran van der Sloot and the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe have been arrested again in the disappearance-case of the American teen Natalee Holloway, who disappeared in May 2005 on Aruba. They are now being suspected of being involved in the manslaughter or grievious bodily harm leading to death. The arrest was based on "new evidence" that has surfaced during recent investigations in which also Dutch detectives were involved."

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 07:46 AM

Link for Dutch and Aruban reports that state they were arrested please. The ones I read stated they were detained, pending evidence presented to judges.

http://dict.die.net/detained/

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)

Detain \De*tain"\ (d[-e]*t[=a]n"), v. t. [imp. & p. p.
Detained; p. pr. & vb. n. Detaining.] [F. d['e]tenir, L.
detinere, detentum; de + tenere to hold. See Tenable.]
1. To keep back or from; to withhold.

Detain not the wages of the hireling. --Jer. Taylor.

2. To restrain from proceeding; to stay or stop; to delay;
as, we were detained by an accident.

Let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a
kid for thee. --Judges xiii.
15.

3. To hold or keep in custody.

Syn: To withhold; retain; stop; stay; arrest; check; retard;
delay; hinder.

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 07:55 AM

What I heard him say (clarify) was that no one was in the prison (Kia), but K2 were in separate jails. :shrug: I guess I missed the part that no one had been arrested. :confused: Here we go again with conflicting/unclear reports. :mad:

imo
http://www.wtopnews.com/index.php?nid=389&pid=0&sid=1296838&page=2
SNIP:They are being held in separate jails, and Aruba's chief prosecutor Hans Mos said prosecutors believe they should be represented by separate attorneys to prevent a conflict of interest

docwho3

11-23-2007, 07:56 AM

. . .Because Aruba is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, extradition is not necessary.

The prosecutor asks a judge to approve a transfer. At that hearing which is mandatory, the judge determines if the arrest and certain other things are proper, and if he feels they are he grants the transfer.

The suspect can petition the court to deny the transfer, but the threshold necessary to grant the transfer is very low, and few petitions are approved.

It has been reported Joran did not petition for the request to be denied, and actually volunteered to be returned to Aruba.

Links to all of this have already been posted, so if you have any doubts, start reading earlier posts. That answers my question. Asking the simple question saved me having to slog through possibly hundreds of previous posts just to get the minor bit of info I needed. I considered it more intelligent to just ask the simple question. Thanks for the answer.

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 08:24 AM

How many times in the past has the prosecutor gone to court with "new evidence", only to have the judge ultimately release all the suspects for lack of evidence?

Considering there have been 10 suspects, I would say a minimum of 20 times. Frankly, I don't think the 21st, or 35th , or whatever the actual number is, will be any different.

Joran has never been re-arrested, the Kalpoes were re-arrested once, IIRC.
The number of prior arrests or number of suspects has nothing to do with the strength of this new evidence, or what information may come from interrogations of J2K in the next days, IMO. I have little doubt their lawyers will work hard to see they are released, and I have no idea how compelling the new evidence is or how it might impact each suspect with regard to their own statements, JMO. I think it is a good thing for the investigation that all three of the last know persons seen with a living, Natalee Holloway are being held and interrogated right now, JMO.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 11:35 AM

Good morning :seeya: .

Fox news is reporting the Kalpoes will be in court in less than an hour.

MOO

Grandad

11-23-2007, 11:50 AM

That answers my question. Asking the simple question saved me having to slog through possibly hundreds of previous posts just to get the minor bit of info I needed. I considered it more intelligent to just ask the simple question. Thanks for the answer.

I appreciate the way you phrased your response.

Several posters would have insisted on being provided with links, even though they may have been posted several times in the recent past.

If you read my last post from last night, you'll see one poster actually asked me for a link to something she had posted herself.

Hope you stick around.

Grandad

11-23-2007, 11:56 AM

Joran has never been re-arrested, the Kalpoes were re-arrested once, IIRC.
The number of prior arrests or number of suspects has nothing to do with the strength of this new evidence, or what information may come from interrogations of J2K in the next days, IMO. I have little doubt their lawyers will work hard to see they are released, and I have no idea how compelling the new evidence is or how it might impact each suspect with regard to their own statements, JMO. I think it is a good thing for the investigation that all three of the last know persons seen with a living, Natalee Holloway are being held and interrogated right now, JMO.

I certainly am not opposed to continuing the investigation, it's just that if you lose your car keys, and you've looked on the hall table a dozen times and not found them there, it's time to look somewhere else.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 12:17 PM

Amigoe (http://www.amigoe.com/english/)

Joran van der Sloot’s lawyer in Aruba, Ariean de Bie, considers the arrest of his client as a ‘last convulsion’ of Justice. “I consider the entire operation as a desire to take a last action as part of the closing of the investigation.” He suspects that the case is concluded, but that the OM wants to see what’s left to effect with the arrests of Van der Sloot and his two Surinamese friends.

Also the American lawyer of Van der Sloot, Joe Tacopina, doesn’t seem to be worried about the fate of his client and does not attach much importance to the arrest. He assumes that the ‘new evidence’ that the OM has, does not concern his client. He assumes that the evidence is not forensic, but more like a new witness that presented him/herself later.

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 12:22 PM

I certainly am not opposed to continuing the investigation, it's just that if you lose your car keys, and you've looked on the hall table a dozen times and not found them there, it's time to look somewhere else.

Great analogfy, Grandad .... I like it !!

JMO

nately

11-23-2007, 12:25 PM

OM's laatste stuiptrekking'

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2592324/Joran_besprak_zaak_Holloway_met_vrienden.html?p=11 ,1

Chocoholic, I will give a translation of the article. It says:

"The department of Justice's last convulsion".

Joran talked about the Holloway case with Deepak and Satish Kalpoe. Their phones have been continuously tapped, between this past february and august. This tapping ocurred during a renewed Dutch investigation into the disapperance of Natalee Holloway.

The Dutch detecives were flown into Aruba after the local investigations came to a halt. When this team didnt make any progress, it was expected the case would be closed. It may be possible this made the suspects to discuss the case through phone.

In these phoneconversations, according to detecives on Aruba, remarks have been made (by the suspects) that could indicate involvement by them in the death of the 18-year old (Holloway). In any case, the remarks made in the phonecalls are conflicting with statements they have made earlier during hearings.

The Dutch officer of law (district attorney) at Aruba, mr. Dop Kruimel, said yesterday he couldnt go into the new leads. The department of justice (in the Netherlands) is, in the meanwhile, making big rush with getting Joran to Aruba, as they requested.

What is most remarkable is that the Aruban brother's attorney was denied access to them, yesterday, because of 'conflicting interest' . He on monday will try to appeal this denial (not sure if appeal is the right word, but he will make work of the 'denial to access' coming monday).

Joran van der Sloot's Aruban lawyer, Ariean de Bie, yesterday said he has no worries whatsoever about the fate of his client. He says it is the last convulsion of the district attorney's office. He says 'this whole operation looks to me like the last action before closing this case.'
He posits that the Department of Justice possibly has no hard evidence and that the case is already over with. The arrests are, according to him, a last effort in trying to put the brothers and Joran under pressure.

Also the family of the on May 30th 2005 disappeared teenager reacted immediately. Through their spokesman they made known they hoped for a breakthrough. According to their lawyer there are good grounds for the new arrests.

The Department of Justice on Aruba yesterday were inundated with American and Latin-American press and TV.
:seeya:

No Nic

11-23-2007, 12:41 PM

Chocoholic, I will give a translation of the article. It says:

"The department of Justice's last convulsion".

Joran talked about the Holloway case with Deepak and Satish Kalpoe. Their phones have been continuously tapped, between this past february and august. This tapping ocurred during a renewed Dutch investigation into the disapperance of Natalee Holloway.

The Dutch detecives were flown into Aruba after the local investigations came to a halt. When this team didnt make any progress, it was expected the case would be closed. It may be possible this made the suspects to discuss the case through phone.

In these phoneconversations, according to detecives on Aruba, remarks have been made (by the suspects) that could indicate involvement by them in the death of the 18-year old (Holloway). In any case, the remarks made in the phonecalls are conflicting with statements they have made earlier during hearings.

The Dutch officer of law (district attorney) at Aruba, mr. Dop Kruimel, said yesterday he couldnt go into the new leads. The department of justice (in the Netherlands) is, in the meanwhile, making big rush with getting Joran to Aruba, as they requested.

What is most remarkable is that the Aruban brother's attorney was denied access to them, yesterday, because of 'conflicting interest' . He on monday will try to appeal this denial (not sure if appeal is the right word, but he will make work of the 'denial to access' coming monday).

Joran van der Sloot's Aruban lawyer, Ariean de Bie, yesterday said he has no worries whatsoever about the fate of his client. He says it is the last convulsion of the district attorney's office. He says 'this whole operation looks to me like the last action before closing this case.'
He posits that the Department of Justice possibly has no hard evidence and that the case is already over with. The arrests are, according to him, a last effort in trying to put the brothers and Joran under pressure.

Also the family of the on May 30th 2005 disappeared teenager reacted immediately. Through their spokesman they made known they hoped for a breakthrough. According to their lawyer there are good grounds for the new arrests.

The Department of Justice on Aruba yesterday were inundated with American and Latin-American press and TV.
:seeya:

Thanks for the translation, Nately. If you have the time or the inclination, could you tell us what this one says (9th link down)? What has been posted elsewhere is that Joran's neighbors in Holland are happy to see him gone. Supposedly, he was not the best of neighbors, but that does not surprise many of us.
http://www.rtl.nl/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/
TIA

Grandad

11-23-2007, 12:42 PM

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 01:04 PM

Since the new suspicions are of manslaughter or inflicting bodily harm which resulted in death, doesn't anyone but me wonder why there are no suspicions of illegally disposing of a body?

Is it possible Natalee has been in a coma the past two and a half years and recently died as a result of what happened that night?

Grandad .... I'm a little lost with your post ????? Can you explain further . ((I think I had too much turkey yesterday, and I'm still asleep)) .... lol ;)

JMO

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 01:16 PM

Meanwhile a Texas search group leaves Monday for Aruba. They are following the theory of a Birmingham forensic psychiatrist. Doctor Andrew Hodges says an email allegedly written by Deepak Kalpoe offers, what he calls subconscious clues. Dave Holloway says it will take the search team about eight days to reach the site.

Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Natalee-Holloway-Case-Isaac-Chin/dp/1893846679)

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 01:23 PM

Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Natalee-Holloway-Case-Isaac-Chin/dp/1893846679)

I thought they were already on the way?

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 01:34 PM

I thought they were already on the way?Somewhere I read there were rough seas. MOO

Grandad

11-23-2007, 01:41 PM

Grandad .... I'm a little lost with your post ????? Can you explain further . ((I think I had too much turkey yesterday, and I'm still asleep)) .... lol ;)

JMO

The new suspicions, manslaughter or bodily harm resulting in death, would have produced a body.

Where is the body?

Where has it been?

Has it recently been found?

Have the authorities actually had it for two and a half years, but only recently determined the cause of death?

I don't imagine you can convict on manslaughter without a body any easier than you can convict on 1st degree murder without a body.

Of course, if Natalee has been in a coma for two and a half years, they may have been hoping she would recover and tell them what happened. Unless they actually have a body, I doubt they have any chance of convicting anyone.

I hope the "new evidence" isn't Beth's journal, or a newly discovered tape Skeeters made, but whatever it is, it's probably in the same category.

Heyes

11-23-2007, 01:50 PM

Hi. Im living in the Netherlands. I cant give links, as the info will be written in Dutch. I followed the news the last couple of hours. To my understanding:

* Joran van der Sloot will be flown to Aruba tomorrow (fri 23 nov)
* He is being held in custody in the city of Arnhem at the policestation (the Netherlands, and the city where he lives) until he flies to Aruba tomorrow.
* There is no release of ANY new evidence, as the prosecution wants
Joran's unprepared reaction to the new evidence (and it is only logical it will be handled this way)
* Joran has been arrested (I noticed there was some confusion about this earlier on in the thread, not sure if I got that confusion correctly, but the news here says he has been arrested).

If there is any more news, I will post it and try to help with any unclarities/confusion.

nately :)

Thank you nately! And welcome!
That is nice of you to give us what information you are hearing. Much appreciated.

dallasvic

11-23-2007, 01:53 PM

They all 3 have been re-arrested. Say they could hold them up to 2 yrs.
Heared this on MSNBS just know.

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 02:03 PM

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 02:04 PM

They all 3 have been re-arrested. Say they could hold them up to 2 yrs.
Heared this on MSNBS just know.

Hey dallasvic .... Congratulations on CL Member of the Month, by the way ....

WOW .... Hopefully we're not going to have to wait ANOTHER 2 years.

JMO

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 02:06 PM

What do lost car keys have in common with a criminal investigation into the wrongful death of a human being?

Awwww JMO .... It was an "analogy" .... a good one I thought.

JMO

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 02:06 PM

They all 3 have been re-arrested. Say they could hold them up to 2 yrs.
Heared this on MSNBS just know.

That's what I've heard but judges will have to buy OM's line first and that could be a long shot.

imo

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 02:10 PM

Awwww JMO .... It was an "analogy" .... a good one I thought.

JMO

It was a very good one, but lost, just like learning how to Google I guess. :shrug:

Heyes

11-23-2007, 02:19 PM

Heyes

11-23-2007, 02:22 PM

They all 3 have been re-arrested. Say they could hold them up to 2 yrs.
Heared this on MSNBS just know.

Fantastic news!
Thanks dallasvic!

Heyes

11-23-2007, 02:24 PM

It was a very good one, but lost, just like learning how to Google I guess. :shrug:

Who doesn't know how to Google that posts on here?:shrug:
please explain your comment. TIA

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 03:02 PM

I must admit I am a bit confused about the Voluntary Manslaughter. Isn't that basically MURDER?

IMO

I don't know the Dutch statute on voluntary manslaughter, but in the U.S. it
is generally the unlawful killing of another human being without malice or premeditation
IMO.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 03:08 PM

I don't know the Dutch statute on voluntary manslaughter, but in the U.S. it
is generally the unlawful killing of another human being without malice or premeditation
IMO.The Mary Winkler case is a good example. MOO

In this case, it could amount to Natalee hitting her head on a rock and everyone running. MOO

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 03:11 PM

In this case, it could amount to Natalee hitting her head on a rock and everyone running. MOO

I disagree. Manslaughter is an unlawful KILLING.

Grandad

11-23-2007, 03:16 PM

<snip>

In this case, it could amount to Natalee hitting her head on a rock and everyone running. MOO

The suspect(s) would have to be engaged in some illegal activity that led to the death for the death to be voluntary manslaughter, or involved in some reckless or irresponsible activity for the death to be involuntary manslaughter.

My guess is this is the difference between Aruba's manslaughter or bodily harm resulting in death.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 03:16 PM

I disagree. Manslaughter is an unlawful KILLING.What if Satish ran over Natalee with a car and they all left?

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 03:20 PM

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- A judge in Aruba ruled Friday that authorities can continue to hold two brothers in connection with the disappearance of Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway more than two years ago.

Deepak, 24, and Satish Kalpoe, 21, will remain in jail at least eight days.

mush have something (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html?section=cnn_latest)

Grandad

11-23-2007, 03:25 PM

What if Satish ran over Natalee with a car and they all left?

That could be an accident, and leaving the scene of the accident.

If the driver was drunk, or driving recklessly, it would be manslaughter.

Grandad

11-23-2007, 03:29 PM

mush have something (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html?section=cnn_latest)

From your link: "The team also discovered that some existing evidence was improperly analyzed, he added, without elaborating."

Hope it wasn't something the FBI tested or analyzed.

JustMyOpinion

11-23-2007, 03:29 PM

What if Satish ran over Natalee with a car and they all left?

I don't know the statutes in Aruba with regard to vehicular homicide, reckless homicide, criminally negligent homicide, etc.

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 03:29 PM

What if Satish ran over Natalee with a car and they all left?

Essentially it covers a great many things that could have caused her death. Refugees' Dutch lawyers have tried to explain it there.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 03:33 PM

Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf, citing anonymous detectives in Aruba, reported Friday that the new evidence is derived from phone taps of conversations between Van der Sloot and the Kalpoes from earlier this year in which they contradict their earlier statements to police.

Herald (http://www.sunherald.com/306/story/201893.html)

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 03:34 PM

Not sure if anyone has seen this yet ....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21937936/

Grandad

11-23-2007, 03:38 PM

Herald (http://www.sunherald.com/306/story/201893.html)

I hope the anonymous detectives aren't T. J. Ward and Art Wood.

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 03:38 PM

Herald (http://www.sunherald.com/306/story/201893.html)

Which could be simply of "he said, she said" scenario, which we have followed for the last 2.5 years already.

dallasvic

11-23-2007, 04:22 PM

Hey dallasvic .... Congratulations on CL Member of the Month, by the way ....

WOW .... Hopefully we're not going to have to wait ANOTHER 2 years.

JMO

Hi fm,

Thank you, and sorry I meant they could be held in jail for up to 2 yrs. As long as they are in jail I will be ok with it, so it will not happen to anyone else.:seeya:

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 04:30 PM

CNN is now saying, from sources, there is a descrepancy on an old tape which is the new evidence.

MOO

Grandad

11-23-2007, 04:34 PM

CNN is now saying, from sources, there is a descrepancy on an old tape which is the new evidence.

MOO

I wonder if a new interpretation of old evidence will be considered new evidence.

nately

11-23-2007, 04:38 PM

Thanks for the translation, Nately. If you have the time or the inclination, could you tell us what this one says (9th link down)? What has been posted elsewhere is that Joran's neighbors in Holland are happy to see him gone. Supposedly, he was not the best of neighbors, but that does not surprise many of us.
http://www.rtl.nl/actueel/rtlnieuws/binnenland/
TIA

No Nic (and Hayes-and thanks for the welcome! (and Luke Davis, too):) )

I cannot open the link, I get an error message. I will try again, later. What I DID get from the article the link was posted in, is this:

"It was quiet when Joran was on Aruba". Neighbors are happy about the arrest and it leads to relief with his neighbors.
Joran was known as an annoying, adrift, 'little adolescent' that intimidated the neighbourhood to such an extent that residents were willing, anonymously, to tell their stories.

What I also gathered yesterday is that he doesn't live with his parents, but in a two story-house with other students and that Joran hardly went to college.

I hope that link will start to work, or maybe I need to upgrade my Media Player. In any case, I'd like to find out, too what those neighbors said about him. And Im willing to translate articles if anyone needs it to be done.

I myself am most interested in his psychology/mental make-up and the family dynamics he grew up in.

:seeya:

nately

11-23-2007, 04:41 PM

I wonder if a new interpretation of old evidence will be considered new evidence.

Yes. I just read an article ( I can give the link, but it is in Dutch!) that new interpretation of old evidence, or, having old evidence they didn't know was evidence (seen in a new light), is reason to submit as new evidence.

Grandad

11-23-2007, 04:48 PM

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 04:51 PM

I wonder if a new interpretation of old evidence will be considered new evidence.It appears the judge thought so, if the report is true.

MOO

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 04:56 PM

Yes. I just read an article ( I can give the link, but it is in Dutch!) that new interpretation of old evidence, or, having old evidence they didn't know was evidence (seen in a new light), is reason to submit as new evidence.That is similar to what I heard on CNN. It gave credit to a Dutch newspaper which had ALE sources.

MOO

Grandad

11-23-2007, 05:06 PM

It appears the judge thought so, if the report is true.

MOO

Was the "new evidence" actually presented in court today?

No Nic

11-23-2007, 05:26 PM

Not sure if anyone has seen this yet ....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21937936/

Exactly what one would expect a defense attorney to say.

I just have a very difficult time thinking this is the same as the 1st arrests/detentions. The media frenzy was all but gone from Aruba, supposedly tourism was doing okay (although I personally have my doubts). Why would they bring this focus back on themselves if they have nothing? I don't think the Dutch are that foolish, ALE, maybe, but I believe this *fresh set of eyes & ears* have found something of value and hopefully the culprits are going down. If it is another *catch and release", it amounts to more black-heartedness and cruelty to Natalee's family, continuous roller coaster and it will not be forgotten.

imo

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 05:33 PM

Was the "new evidence" actually presented in court today?
Don't know. FOX is reporting a gag order was requested by the prosecuter.

Bo Dietl was just interviewed on FOX. He said he has been working on this case from the beginning. He thinks the new evidence is text messages, at least two from Equador. MOO

Reportedly Joran is on plane, will see judge Monday.

MOO

ortiga

11-23-2007, 06:21 PM

Don't know. FOX is reporting a gag order was requested by the prosecuter.

Bo Dietl was just interviewed on FOX. He said he has been working on this case from the beginning. He thinks the new evidence is text messages, at least two from Equador. MOO

Reportedly Joran is on plane, will see judge Monday.

MOO

But in this interview he mentions only Venezuela and Colombia, and not Ecuador.

Transcription by Heli on RU FNC 17:21 EST November 23, 2007
Heather and Greg Jarrett

"They also have text messaging; the text messaging from Aruba don't originate in Aruba, they come from Venezuela, they come from Columbia, it's what they call pings and this kind of information takes a long time to get since you have to serve subpoenas on them and this is the problem here which I think again, I think they've gotten that information also on the text messaging."

Who "served" "supoenas" on foreign countries?

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 06:22 PM

ortiga

11-23-2007, 06:24 PM

LOL cause Bo is kept in the loop and knows all about Aruban law, right?

I find it hard to believe that Deepak, Satish, and Joran communicated since they were out of jail in Sept 2005, and I find it even harder to believe that they had the conversation so that the 3 of them spoke amongst each other at the same time. On the phone. On internet, text messaging or whatever they are claiming.

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 06:58 PM

But in this interview he mentions only Venezuela and Colombia, and not Ecuador.

Transcription by Heli on RU FNC 17:21 EST November 23, 2007
Heather and Greg Jarrett

"They also have text messaging; the text messaging from Aruba don't originate in Aruba, they come from Venezuela, they come from Columbia, it's what they call pings and this kind of information takes a long time to get since you have to serve subpoenas on them and this is the problem here which I think again, I think they've gotten that information also on the text messaging."

Who "served" "supoenas" on foreign countries?

OOPS! My mistake. MOO

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 07:01 PM

I find it hard to believe that Deepak, Satish, and Joran communicated since they were out of jail in Sept 2005, and I find it even harder to believe that they had the conversation so that the 3 of them spoke amongst each other at the same time. On the phone. On internet, text messaging or whatever they are claiming.Maybe it is a misinformation attempt. MOO

No Nic

11-23-2007, 07:27 PM

Here is a report from The Hague naming Joran as the main suspect. Seems they agree with some of us right here on this board. lol

Holloway suspect flown to Aruba
The Hague - Joran van der Sloot, the main suspect in the case of missing American student Natalee Holloway, is on his way to the Caribbean island of Aruba
http://www.radionetherlands.nl/news/international/5529401/Holloway-suspect-flown-to-Aruba

imo

Grandad

11-23-2007, 07:27 PM

Exactly what one would expect a defense attorney to say.

<snip>

I think she was referring to the link to the video in which it's reported that Beth is in Holland.

fairmaiden

11-23-2007, 08:38 PM

I think she was referring to the link to the video in which it's reported that Beth is in Holland.

I was Grandad .... I should have said that. Someone was at my door when I was posting ....

JMO

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 10:15 PM

I was Grandad .... I should have said that. Someone was at my door when I was posting ....

JMO

Don't people know that you have important contributions to make here? Sheesh :shrug: :D

Heyes

11-23-2007, 10:55 PM

I don't know the Dutch statute on voluntary manslaughter, but in the U.S. it
is generally the unlawful killing of another human being without malice or premeditation
IMO.

hmmm Thanks JMO!
So if she died due to perhaps any drugs slipped into her drink, it might fall under voluntary manslaughter?

Heyes

11-23-2007, 11:03 PM

LOL joe T is spinning like a top. Dave's attorney and many others are correcting his spin. This is GREAT!
IMO

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 11:06 PM

hmmm Thanks JMO!
So if she died due to perhaps any drugs slipped into her drink, it might fall under voluntary manslaughter?

Good luck trying to prove that without a body or even Natalee's friends never having witnessed that anything was slipped into her drink. Surely they wouldn't have kept that kind of information from ALE or the FBI would they?

chambord

11-23-2007, 11:07 PM

Maybe it is a misinformation attempt. MOO

Yikes Luke!! Looks like your taking some heat over at CTV.

Heyes

11-23-2007, 11:10 PM

Good luck trying to prove that without a body or even Natalee's friends never having witnessed that anything was slipped into her drink. Surely they wouldn't have kept that kind of information from ALE or the FBI would they?

maybe joran or one of the kalpoes talked about it and they have it in a text or phone tap. We know they have something, finally. Whatever, it is wonderful to know these 3 are locked up tonight. Just wonderful!
Now, we need a trial. We need justice for Natalee.

IMO

Heyes

11-23-2007, 11:13 PM

Yikes Luke!! Looks like your taking some heat over at CTV.

I popped over there a week or so ago, Lots and lots of Natalee supporters there. Good to see you and so many others again.
:patriot:
IMO

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 11:28 PM

maybe joran or one of the kalpoes talked about it and they have it in a text or phone tap. We know they have something, finally. Whatever, it is wonderful to know these 3 are locked up tonight. Just wonderful!
Now, we need a trial. We need justice for Natalee.

IMO

I think it speaks volumes of people that take such delight in seeing three people who even under US law would be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, in jail.

Supposedly there is new evidence but none of it has yet been presented to a judge. Gloat all you wish but what will you do if the judges throw this out and state that they can't hold the guys any longer? More screams and cries about cover ups and corruption?

The OM comes up with the highest possible charge they can allege in a possible suspected crime. We already know that it wasn't kidnapping, gangrape and murder otherwise the OM with new evidence could have re-arrested them for that alleged suspected crime.

It's gone down to voluntary manslaughter and I think they'll be lucky at best to attempt to keep the boys longer than even 8 days.

Don't count the love-bowl money yet.

imo

Chocoholic

11-23-2007, 11:34 PM

I popped over there a week or so ago, Lots and lots of Natalee supporters there. Good to see you and so many others again.
:patriot:
IMO

It seems to me that you think that somehow those who are critical of the Twitty and Holloway family behaviors which have come to light in the last 2.5 yrs, means that they aren't supportive of Natalee.

I completely support Natalee. I just happen to think she ran away and I hope she is a truly happy young woman able to live without her stepfather's coachings and her mother who IMO appeared to want to be more like Natalee than Natalee herself.

I also don't see a reason to hide the rather normal behavior that Natalee partook in. She drank, she may or may not have been using drugs, there are pictures of her smoking on Aruba, she voluntarily left with 3 boys and she had earlier bets about whether or not she was going to be able to "hook up" with one of the MB boys.

Apparently that is normal MB behavior, I don't see it as incredibly abnormal, though somewhat a different picture her mother painted with the 100% bible verse recall, virginal teetotaller.

Heyes

11-23-2007, 11:46 PM

I think it speaks volumes of people that take such delight in seeing three people who even under US law would be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, in jail.

Supposedly there is new evidence but none of it has yet been presented to a judge. Gloat all you wish but what will you do if the judges throw this out and state that they can't hold the guys any longer? More screams and cries about cover ups and corruption?

The OM comes up with the highest possible charge they can allege in a possible suspected crime. We already know that it wasn't kidnapping, gangrape and murder otherwise the OM with new evidence could have re-arrested them for that alleged suspected crime.

It's gone down to voluntary manslaughter and I think they'll be lucky at best to attempt to keep the boys longer than even 8 days.

Don't count the love-bowl money yet.

imo
No screams and cries from me.
They are all in jail another night.
imo

Heyes

11-23-2007, 11:53 PM

It seems to me that you think that somehow those who are critical of the Twitty and Holloway family behaviors which have come to light in the last 2.5 yrs, means that they aren't supportive of Natalee.

I completely support Natalee. I just happen to think she ran away and I hope she is a truly happy young woman able to live without her stepfather's coachings and her mother who IMO appeared to want to be more like Natalee than Natalee herself.

I also don't see a reason to hide the rather normal behavior that Natalee partook in. She drank, she may or may not have been using drugs, there are pictures of her smoking on Aruba, she voluntarily left with 3 boys and she had earlier bets about whether or not she was going to be able to "hook up" with one of the MB boys.

Apparently that is normal MB behavior, I don't see it as incredibly abnormal, though somewhat a different picture her mother painted with the 100% bible verse recall, virginal teetotaller.

ummm Beth doesn't have anything to do with the arrest and detention of j2k, nothing to do with the voluntary manslaughter, or the serious bodily harm that caused her daughters death. Soooooooooo, ain't relevant in my book.
Oh and evidently Natalee could recite bible versus and that's not a bad thing.
And it doesn't matter if she voluntarily left with the boys. It was when she wanted away from them and they didn't give her that chance that it became the crime in which they were are accused of.
IMO!
IMO

Grandad

11-23-2007, 11:54 PM

hmmm Thanks JMO!
So if she died due to perhaps any drugs slipped into her drink, it might fall under voluntary manslaughter?

And exactly how would they determine that without a body?

Luke Davis

11-23-2007, 11:57 PM

Yikes Luke!! Looks like your taking some heat over at CTV.I'm still in the kitchen.

:hat:

Grandad

11-24-2007, 12:00 AM

<snip>
It was when she wanted away from them and they didn't give her that chance that it became the crime in which they were are accused of.
IMO!
IMO

Then why is there no more talk of kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment?

chambord

11-24-2007, 12:13 AM

I popped over there a week or so ago, Lots and lots of Natalee supporters there. Good to see you and so many others again.
:patriot:
IMO

I may have been in absentia but i always remained hopeful that sooner or later the three amigos would turn on each other, or at least slip. Where is our pal Tree these days, I miss him.

fairmaiden

11-24-2007, 12:31 AM

I popped over there a week or so ago, Lots and lots of Natalee supporters there. Good to see you and so many others again.
:patriot:
IMO

"Natalee supporters" ?????

JMO

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 12:34 AM

The Hague, Netherlands (AHN) - Monitored cell phone calls between three suspects in the case of missing American student Natalee Holloway in Aruba has led to the deportation of Joran van der Sloot from the Netherlands.

AHN (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009252261)

Is deported better than extradited?

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 12:45 AM

ummm Beth doesn't have anything to do with the arrest and detention of j2k, nothing to do with the voluntary manslaughter, or the serious bodily harm that caused her daughters death. Soooooooooo, ain't relevant in my book.
Oh and evidently Natalee could recite bible versus and that's not a bad thing.
And it doesn't matter if she voluntarily left with the boys. It was when she wanted away from them and they didn't give her that chance that it became the crime in which they were are accused of.
IMO!
IMO

I didn't comment about beth having anything to do with an arrest. I spoke to "Natalee supporters" and what appears to be your understanding of those who don't support the "family". Perhaps you misread my post.

Natalee could recite bible versus what - a bad thing? I know how important the interpretation of words are on this board.

Main Entry:
ver·sus Listen to the pronunciation of versus Listen to the pronunciation of versus
Pronunciation:
\ˈvər-səs, -səz\
Function:
preposition
Etymology:
Middle English, from Medieval Latin, towards, against, from Latin, adverb, so as to face, from past participle of vertere to turn
Date:
15th century

1 : against 2 : in contrast to or as the alternative of <free trade versus protection>

Main Entry:
verse Listen to the pronunciation of 1verse
Pronunciation:
\ˈvərs\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English vers, fers, from Anglo-French vers & Old English fers, both from Latin versus, literally, turning, from vertere to turn — more at worth
Date:
before 12th century

1: a line of metrical writing2 a (1): metrical language (2): metrical writing distinguished from poetry especially by its lower level of intensity (3): poetry 2 b: poem c: a body of metrical writing (as of a period or country)3: stanza4: one of the short divisions into which a chapter of the Bible is traditionally divided

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary

Who accused J2K of a crime? I know beth did. Did ALE officially accuse j2K of a crime? If so do you have a link to that please? Arrest and/or detainment doesn't equal an accusation under Dutch or Aruban law.

Heyes

11-24-2007, 12:49 AM

And exactly how would they determine that without a body?

Perhaps someones talking........
we heard they have been tapping these guys and tracing their communications for awhile. Looks like they found something that they felt strong enough to present. And I thought I heard tonight that the judge for the kalpoes agreed. They are not released but are in jail.
UH OH
imo

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:40 AM

AHN (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009252261)

Is deported better than extradited?

Let's take this scenario.

Let's pretend that you live in Sacramento and LE in San Diego wish to question you. When Sacramento police picks you up and takes you to San Diego are you deported or extradited?

:biggrin:

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:45 AM

I may have been in absentia but i always remained hopeful that sooner or later the three amigos would turn on each other, or at least slip. Where is our pal Tree these days, I miss him.

Tree was very popular with some on the CTV board, I doubt he would last long here. Moderating is a little stricter here than on CTV.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:48 AM

Then why is there no more talk of kidnapping or unlawful imprisonment?

Because not even the eager prosecutors can make those suspicions stick. IMO

dallasvic

11-24-2007, 03:15 AM

No Nic (and Hayes-and thanks for the welcome! (and Luke Davis, too):) )

I cannot open the link, I get an error message. I will try again, later. What I DID get from the article the link was posted in, is this:

"It was quiet when Joran was on Aruba". Neighbors are happy about the arrest and it leads to relief with his neighbors.
Joran was known as an annoying, adrift, 'little adolescent' that intimidated the neighbourhood to such an extent that residents were willing, anonymously, to tell their stories.

What I also gathered yesterday is that he doesn't live with his parents, but in a two story-house with other students and that Joran hardly went to college.

I hope that link will start to work, or maybe I need to upgrade my Media Player. In any case, I'd like to find out, too what those neighbors said about him. And Im willing to translate articles if anyone needs it to be done.

I myself am most interested in his psychology/mental make-up and the family dynamics he grew up in.

:seeya:

Hi Nately,
How are you ? Great post there. They are bringing Jordon back he will be here tomorrow.
They said the people said the Jordon was a very quite person until those boy came around. He was very sweet and quite and stayed to himself I think he was the main one myself, but I could be wrong.
Thinking of what you said about the neighbors saying it was nice when he was not there, so that means he is not so nice an quiet in his neighborhood.
What ever happened he was the main one I think and the others just fol lowered. One of the other boy was the one that said she fell and hit her head, but I bet Jordon did something to her and they went along because they were afraid the same might happen to them. I bet he threatened both of them.

BigBrat

11-24-2007, 03:25 AM

dallasvic

11-24-2007, 04:02 AM

Hi Again,

One more thing and I we leave y'all alone. I was in the hospital and got way behind. So Sorry ,but I read another post stating someone might be talking. Today on MSNBC LIVE they had been listing to the boys. You know after something like this happens someone always talks and and they get caught.
Well IT LOOKS LIKE IT PAID OFF :D or they would have not brought them in. They said voice conversations so that is either phone, one of their friends they told or someone over heard they talking.
I think it was phone what about anyone else can you think of something ?:shrug: Would like to know.

chambord

11-24-2007, 08:13 AM

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 08:54 AM

I think it speaks volumes of people that take such delight in seeing three people who even under US law would be considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, in jail.

Supposedly there is new evidence but none of it has yet been presented to a judge.
imo

Under the Dutch/Aruban legal system, individuals can be detained on reasonable suspicion for the specific period of time a Judge determines the evidence allows and they can be interrogated. I hope it does speak volumes about me that I feel satisfied that the last, known persons seen with a living, Natalee Holloway are lawfully back in custody, separated from one another, and facing new interrogations. I hope it does speak volumes about me that I feel pleased the criminal investigation has yielded new evidence and I hope the truth comes forward about what happened to Natalee, and if individuals committed crimes against her, they may be held accountable and face legal consequences, JMO

Please link to a published statement that is the basis for your claim that the Judge has not been presented with evidence. TIA.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21940522/
SNIP:ORANJESTAD, Aruba - A judge on Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case, a prosecutor told MSNBC-TV.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 09:20 AM

Hi Nately,
How are you ? Great post there. They are bringing Jordon back he will be here tomorrow.
They said the people said the Jordon was a very quite person until those boy came around. He was very sweet and quite and stayed to himself I think he was the main one myself, but I could be wrong.
Thinking of what you said about the neighbors saying it was nice when he was not there, so that means he is not so nice an quiet in his neighborhood.
What ever happened he was the main one I think and the others just fol lowered. One of the other boy was the one that said she fell and hit her head, but I bet Jordon did something to her and they went along because they were afraid the same might happen to them. I bet he threatened both of them.
I think I'm on the wrong thread. Who is Jordon and why was he quite the person?

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 09:28 AM

Under the Dutch/Aruban legal system, individuals can be detained on reasonable suspicion for the specific period of time a Judge determines the evidence allows and they can be interrogated. I hope it does speak volumes about me that I feel satisfied that the last, known persons seen with a living, Natalee Holloway are lawfully back in custody, separated from one another, and facing new interrogations. I hope it does speak volumes about me that I feel pleased the criminal investigation has yielded new evidence and I hope the truth comes forward about what happened to Natalee, and if individuals committed crimes against her, they may be held accountable and face legal consequences, JMO

Please link to a published statement that is the basis for your claim that the Judge has not been presented with evidence. TIA.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21940522/
SNIP:ORANJESTAD, Aruba - A judge on Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case, a prosecutor told MSNBC-TV.

From November 23

I require a link for your first statement in your first paragraph.

De rechter zal het voor de bewijsvoering niet accepteren als het OM alleen oude feiten voorlegt. Mos: “Tenzij je niet wist of kon weten dat je het bewijs al in bezit had.

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37088.php

Babelfish away.

cassidy

11-24-2007, 09:30 AM

fairmaiden

11-24-2007, 09:42 AM

The chief prosecutor was on Fox News this am. He officialy is saying Natalee is dead, and is very confident the judge will confine Joran as well. This looks like its a done deal folks. Finally some peace for Beth.

moo

Good Morning, cham ....

For the Chief Prosecutor to say officially that Natalee is dead, certainly makes me think they must have undeniable proof of this. I would hope the Chief Prosecutor is GOING to prove this.

On the other hand .... there has been so much flurry since this news broke, and depending on which article you read, there seems to be this fast-approaching deadline ((December 31, IIRC)), and according to some articles, some think this is a last-ditch effort to question Joran et al.

I'm hoping some definitive answers will be forthcoming finally.

JMO

fairmaiden

11-24-2007, 09:46 AM

I believe that he based his statement on the premise that there is no evidence of a LIVE Natalee. :shrug:

Ahhhhhhhhh well now, cassidy .... that puts a different spin on it, I believe. Since I didn't see the report, I was thinking it was quite a statement to make UNLESS there was proof.

JMO

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 09:48 AM

The chief prosecutor was on Fox News this am. He officialy is saying Natalee is dead, and is very confident the judge will confine Joran as well. This looks like its a done deal folks. Finally some peace for Beth.

moo

I thought beth was at peace when she knew that her daughter was "with God" when she crawled on hands and knees through a cometary on Aruba.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 09:49 AM

Ahhhhhhhhh well now, cassidy .... that puts a different spin on it, I believe. Since I didn't see the report, I was thinking it was quite a statement to make UNLESS there was proof.

JMO

Like that is anything new in the last 2.5 yrs?

cassidy

11-24-2007, 09:51 AM

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 09:52 AM

I honestly don't know what to believe. Does anyone know if Aruba issues gag orders? If they do, there ought to be one on this case now.

JMHO

IIRC gag orders are in place and the hearings will be taking place in secret locations.

Guess they really want to keep out the US media this time.

cassidy

11-24-2007, 09:56 AM

IIRC gag orders are in place and the hearings will be taking place in secret locations.

Guess they really want to keep out the US media this time.

That would probably be in everyone's best interest.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 10:01 AM

That would probably be in everyone's best interest.

I agree. The hearings will be closed and held in secret locations. Not to say that that information won't leak out, but that is at least the attempt.

I'll be interested to read the responses to "secret and closed hearings" and how that pertains to Aruba being "corrupt" as was described previously when the boys were released previously. If they are released again, will Aruba again be "secretive" and therefore "corrupt"?

fairmaiden

11-24-2007, 10:03 AM

I honestly don't know what to believe. Does anyone know if Aruba issues gag orders? If they do, there ought to be one on this case now.

JMHO

cassidy .... As I said before, there have been so many reports. In one or a few of them, I did read where the judge may impose a gag order.

I think this has been part of the problem all along. When this news broke first about Joran et al being re-arrested, there was so much speculation among TH's. There has been much speculation for over 2 years. After, the re-arrest though, they were speculating as to what the evidence was, and where they found it. I don't happen to think that's "responsible reporting". If they don't know what this "incriminating evidence" is, then SAY so.

JMO

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 10:19 AM

cassidy .... As I said before, there have been so many reports. In one or a few of them, I did read where the judge may impose a gag order.

I think this has been part of the problem all along. When this news broke first about Joran et al being re-arrested, there was so much speculation among TH's. There has been much speculation for over 2 years. After, the re-arrest though, they were speculating as to what the evidence was, and where they found it. I don't happen to think that's "responsible reporting". If they don't know what this "incriminating evidence" is, then SAY so.

JMO

NEWSFLASH..... NEW EVIDENCE.

We've seen how much evidence they've brought forth.

New evidence DNA encrusted toothbrush
New evidence hair on ductape
New evidence skeeter tape
New evidence bones found
New evidence bloody mattress

Hope nobody is holding their breath for the overwhelming new evidence.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 10:22 AM

AHN (http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009252261)

Is deported better than extradited?

I believe Joran is a Dutch citizen. He can't be deported from the Netherlands.

So much for accuracy in reporting.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 10:34 AM

Perhaps someones talking........
we heard they have been tapping these guys and tracing their communications for awhile. Looks like they found something that they felt strong enough to present. And I thought I heard tonight that the judge for the kalpoes agreed. They are not released but are in jail.
UH OH
imo

People have been talking for two and a half years. Every accusation that could possibly be made has already been made.

A judge has ruled the Kalpoes can be detained for questioning, and a judge will almost certainly rule Joran can be held for questioning, but I'm sure this "new evidence" has not yet been presented to a judge.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 10:45 AM

The fact that the prosecution only brought so-called new evidence and wishes to detain the persons of interest for at least 8 days, without just charging any of them, just casts more doubt about the veracity of the evidence.

The prosecution, if they had such overwhelming evidence could have charged J2K. But they haven't. IMO *yawn* more of the same.

No Nic

11-24-2007, 10:54 AM

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (CNN) -- There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead -- even if the Alabama teenager's remains are never found, Aruba's chief public prosecutor said Friday.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 10:57 AM

I thought beth was at peace when she knew that her daughter was "with God" when she crawled on hands and knees through a cometary on Aruba.

Oops, that was supposed to read "cemetery" not "cometary". I've asked mods to edit.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 11:02 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html

From your link: " And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."

No court is going to accept that as evidence.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 11:11 AM

From your link: " And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."

No court is going to accept that as evidence.

But but but but, that kind of evidence has driven this case for 2.5 yrs!

Which is the reason why still nobody has been charged with any crime.

No Nic

11-24-2007, 11:13 AM

From your link: " And any day that passes now is just more evidence that she is not alive anymore."

No court is going to accept that as evidence.

Also from the link:

There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead

Will the Aruban court accept "evidence" as evidence?

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 11:18 AM

I honestly don't know what to believe. Does anyone know if Aruba issues gag orders? If they do, there ought to be one on this case now.

JMHOIt was reported the prosecuter asked for a gag order. He can not talk about the evidence but the defence can. I didn't hear if the judge made the order.

MOO

Grandad

11-24-2007, 11:25 AM

Also from the link:

QUOTE: "There is enough evidence to prove Natalee Holloway is dead."

To paraphrase your quote from post #321: "Exactly what one would expect a prosecutor to say."

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 11:31 AM

To paraphrase your quote from post #321: "Exactly what one would expect a prosecutor to say."

"Uh yer honor, I got crappy evidence and not a clue, can you please listen to us for a few days?"

LOL

No Nic

11-24-2007, 11:35 AM

To paraphrase your quote from post #321: "Exactly what one would expect a prosecutor to say."

I disagree. That is not what I would expect a prosecutor to say.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 11:37 AM

"Uh yer honor, I got crappy evidence and not a clue, can you please listen to us for a few days?"

LOL

Yeah, but crappy evidence would be better than no evidence.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 11:39 AM

I disagree. That is not what I would expect a prosecutor to say.

Then may I assume you would expect a prosecutor to say, "We have no evidence, but we know in our hearts, and feel in his bones he's guilty?"

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 11:44 AM

Then may I assume you would expect a prosecutor to say, "We have no evidence, but we know in our hearts, and feel in his bones he's guilty?"

DNA encrusted toothbrush
Donkey bones
Dog blood soaked mattress
Blond hair on ductape

Yup it's a gut feeling at best IMO.

No Nic

11-24-2007, 12:03 PM

Then may I assume you would expect a prosecutor to say, "We have no evidence, but we know in our hearts, and feel in his bones he's guilty?"

I would expect a prosecutor to speak the truth and if he couldn't speak the truth, I would expect "no comment".

On CNN just now:

Prosecutor said the evidence is NEW evidence and it will prove that Natalee is no longer alive. He said the Dutch investigators re-evaluated the old information that led to new leads. (para) Isn't it something...even with a new investigative team and a new prosecutor...all road lead to JK2 and points to JK2's guilt.

No link as I just heard this on CNN.

imo

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 12:07 PM

But but but but, that kind of evidence has driven this case for 2.5 yrs!

Which is the reason why still nobody has been charged with any crime.

Nobody in the public knows what specific evidence is in the file that kept the investigation open past the 2 year mark, or what the new evidence is that resulted in detention of the last known persons seen with a living Natalee, IMO.
The reason nobody has been charged or convicted of a crime is that the OM has never brought a summation to court and proved a case, IMO.
The OM still has time to do this, IMO..because the case has not yet been closed. JMO

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 12:18 PM

Nobody in the public knows what specific evidence is in the file that kept the investigation open past the 2 year mark, or what the new evidence is that resulted in detention of the last known persons seen with a living Natalee, IMO.
The reason nobody has been charged or convicted of a crime is that the OM has never brought a summation to court and proved a case, IMO.
The OM still has time to do this, IMO..because the case has not yet been closed. JMO

I guess you found that link that you requested that stated that stated that evidence of a crime has not been given to a judge.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 12:20 PM

Politie verhoort Joran van der Sloot
Uitgegeven: 24 november 2007 17:13
Laatst gewijzigd: 24 november 2007 17:53

ORANJESTAD - Een team van Nederlandse en Arubaanse rechercheurs is zaterdag meteen begonnen met het verhoren van de 20-jarige Joran van der Sloot. Dat heeft het Openbaar Ministerie bevestigd.
Novum Nieuws

De jongen die verdacht wordt van doodslag of zware mishandeling, is vannacht op Aruba aangekomen.

Van der Sloot, die opnieuw ondervraagd wordt over de verdwijning van de Amerikaanse tiener Natalee Holloway, is elk contact met de buitenwereld ontzegd. Hij mag geen tv kijken, kranten lezen of bezoek en post ontvangen.

Advocaat

"Aan hem zijn beperkende maatregelen opgelegd", zei officier van justitie Dop Kruimel. "Hij mag alleen met zijn advocaat spreken." Jorans vader, Paul van der Sloot, die hem als advocaat zou kunnen spreken, heeft zich volgens haar niet aangemeld als verdediger.

De verhoren zijn volgens Kruimel nodig voor het dossier dat maandag wordt overgelegd aan de rechter-commissaris die beslist over verlenging van de bewaring. "Daarvoor moeten we met meer materiaal op tafel komen. Hoe verder in het proces, hoe meer we moeten hebben."

Medeverdachten

Vrijdag heeft de rechter het voorarrest van de twee medeverdachten, de broers D. en S. K. met acht dagen verlengd. De broers werden op verschillende locaties op Aruba gehoord om te voorkomen dat er enig contact is dat van invloed kan zijn op hun verklaringen.

http://www.nu.nl/news/1329488/20/Politie_verhoort_Joran_van_der_Sloot.html

No Nic

11-24-2007, 12:21 PM

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 12:24 PM

I guess you found that link that you requested that stated that stated that evidence of a crime has not been given to a judge.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312653,00.html
SNIP: A judge Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case of the missing teenager.

No Nic

11-24-2007, 12:24 PM

<snipped>

http://www.nu.nl/news/1329488/20/Politie_verhoort_Joran_van_der_Sloot.html

Wow, what a great link. Sure was insightful and answered a lot of questions. :rolleyes:

imo

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 12:28 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312653,00.html
SNIP: A judge Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case of the missing teenager.

De verhoren zijn volgens Kruimel nodig voor het dossier dat maandag wordt overgelegd aan de rechter-commissaris die beslist over verlenging van de bewaring. "Daarvoor moeten we met meer materiaal op tafel komen. Hoe verder in het proces, hoe meer we moeten hebben."

http://www.nu.nl/news/1329488/20/Politie_verhoort_Joran_van_der_Sloot.html

Heyes

11-24-2007, 12:50 PM

Paulus and Anita won't have access to Joran while he is incarcerated. Whoo Hoo !! Daddy won't be able to reinforce the "no body, no case". This time when Joran confesses, maybe it will stick.

IMO

eta: oops, no link, just now heard it on CNN

without dompig involved and without paulus's other buddies involved. double whoo hoo!
I bet anita is just spitting mad.
These investigators and this prosecutor seem to mean business. No more goofing around. Gotta love it!
The ALE really bungled this case and finally some good men and women from the NL are going to fix this injustice! Excellent!
My next question is how much $$$$$$ did the vandersloots pay tacopina to get on tv as often as possible and attempt to spread misinformation? It is amusing. Tacopina mentioned that if joran goes to trial HE WILL BE THERE! lol lol lol And do what?
IMO

Heyes

11-24-2007, 01:13 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312653,00.html
SNIP: A judge Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case of the missing teenager.

I just thought this should be repeated. Thanks JMO!
notice the words JUDGE and REVIEWING NEW EVIDENCE!
IMO!
just saw a picture of joran taken when he had a layover on the way to aruba!
THE SMIRK IS GONE~ does my heart good!
IMO

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 01:33 PM

Beebee

11-24-2007, 01:39 PM

What is amusing is all the speculation.

What do you think happened to Natalee?

Heyes

11-24-2007, 02:04 PM

This is too funny!
http://www.elfyourself.com/?id=9589437335
IMO

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:12 PM

What do you think happened to Natalee?

I think she ran, long and hard, away from her parents.

"I think" is an opinion.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:14 PM

I just thought this should be repeated. Thanks JMO!
notice the words JUDGE and REVIEWING NEW EVIDENCE!
IMO!
just saw a picture of joran taken when he had a layover on the way to aruba!
THE SMIRK IS GONE~ does my heart good!
IMO

Since when is FOX a credible news source?

beth's smile is gone too - botox took care of that IMO.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:21 PM

http://www.amigoe.com/english/

SNIP:The OM doesn’t want to talk about the method of criminal investigation used. Chief district attorney Hans Mos describes the new evidence as a combination of new and old facts. For the argumentation, the judge won’t allow the OM to come with just old facts. Mos: “Unless you didn’t know or could have known that you already had the evidence. But just the old dossier was definitely not enough. The new aspects that came to light made the old material interesting. The judge has already accepted the first crucial test that was necessary for the arrest of the suspects.”

Right, it's not the judge at this stage that has stated that new and credible evidence has been presented, it's the district attorney. The judge has decided that based on the DA's belief of new evidence the persons of interest can be held for likely 8 days. Other links show that no new evidence has been presented to the judge yet and that more evidence is required before LE is allowed to keep them past another 8 days.

De verhoren zijn volgens Kruimel nodig voor het dossier dat maandag wordt overgelegd aan de rechter-commissaris die beslist over verlenging van de bewaring. "Daarvoor moeten we met meer materiaal op tafel komen. Hoe verder in het proces, hoe meer we moeten hebben.

http://www.nu.nl/news/1329488/20/Pol...der_Sloot.html

Grandad

11-24-2007, 02:41 PM

Right, it's not the judge at this stage that has stated that new and credible evidence has been presented, it's the district attorney. The judge has decided that based on the DA's belief of new evidence the persons of interest can be held for likely 8 days. Other links show that no new evidence has been presented to the judge yet and that more evidence is required before LE is allowed to keep them past another 8 days.

http://www.nu.nl/news/1329488/20/Pol...der_Sloot.html

I believe the defendants have the right to be the first to see the evidence.

The prosecutor has requested that the defendants be detained so that they can be confronted with the evidence and interrogated regarding it.

After the defendants have been confronted with it, the prosecutor must then present it to the court and make it available to the defense attorneys.

If the prosecutor doesn't bring charges, but asks for additional detainment, the judge will base that decision on the strength of the evidence provided.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 02:45 PM

Right, it's not the judge at this stage that has stated that new and credible evidence has been presented, it's the district attorney. The judge has decided that based on the DA's belief of new evidence the persons of interest can be held for likely 8 days.

I disagree that the Judge decided based on the DA's belief.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312653,00.html
A judge Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case of the missing teenager.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 02:46 PM

I believe the defendants have the right to be the first to see the evidence.
.

On what facts do you base your belief?

Grandad

11-24-2007, 02:49 PM

<snip>
I bet anita is just spitting mad.

<snip>

How mad do you think Beth will be when the suspects are released? Mad enough to start a new fund raising program?

Grandad

11-24-2007, 02:52 PM

On what facts do you base your belief?

On a conversation I had with a gentleman who has practiced law in the Netherlands and is currently studying law in this country hoping to be licensed here.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:53 PM

I disagree that the Judge decided based on the DA's belief.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312653,00.html
A judge Friday ordered an extended detention of two brothers held in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway after reviewing new evidence in the case of the missing teenager.

Once again, do you consider FOXnews as a reliable source of information regarding Dutch and Aruban laws?

I know that at times you disagree, as you did with the "extradition" but your disagreement may not be based on facts.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 02:57 PM

Once again, do you consider FOXnews as a reliable source of information regarding Dutch and Aruban laws?

The link is to an AP article reporting on what happened in this case on Friday.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:57 PM

On a conversation I had with a gentleman who has practiced law in the Netherlands and is currently studying law in this country hoping to be licensed here.

You better have a link to that!!

LOL

Just kidding.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 02:58 PM

Once again, do you consider FOXnews as a reliable source of information regarding Dutch and Aruban laws?

I know that at times you disagree, as you did with the "extradition" but your disagreement may not be based on facts.

In all fairness, the report came from the AP, and not a Fox stringer.

Heyes

11-24-2007, 02:58 PM

How mad do you think Beth will be when the suspects are released? Mad enough to start a new fund raising program?
I sure Beth expects it. I know I'm gun shy after so many false starts with these guys.
I feel most people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's not like we haven't been down this road a few times before. Perhaps with the help of other agencies, the killers won't walk. This time it's being played alot harder and for keeps. At least that's what I'm getting after so much time and the recent arrests. The new prosecutor gives me hope as well.

IMO

Grandad

11-24-2007, 02:59 PM

The link is to an AP article reporting on what happened in this case on Friday.

At least one AP reporter has been fired for reporting false information in this case.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 02:59 PM

The link is to an AP article reporting on what happened in this case on Friday.

AP is considered a credible source on Aruban and Dutch laws with regards to this case?

Grandad

11-24-2007, 03:01 PM

I sure Beth expects it. I know I'm gun shy after so many false starts with these guys.
I feel most people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's not like we haven't been down this road a few times before. Perhaps with the help of other agencies, the killers won't walk. This time it's being played alot harder and for keeps. At least that's what I'm getting after so much time and the recent arrests. The new prosecutor gives me hope as well.

IMO

I would say this time it's being played with desperation.

The desperation that comes with the knowledge this is their last shot.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 03:03 PM

In all fairness, the report came from the AP, and not a Fox stringer.

So if AP stated that Joran had to be extradited it's TRUTH, and FOX won't go any further to find out the veracity of this?

Now that's some fine journalism.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 03:06 PM

I sure Beth expects it. I know I'm gun shy after so many false starts with these guys.
I feel most people are waiting for the other shoe to drop. It's not like we haven't been down this road a few times before. Perhaps with the help of other agencies, the killers won't walk. This time it's being played alot harder and for keeps. At least that's what I'm getting after so much time and the recent arrests. The new prosecutor gives me hope as well.

IMO

There are killers in this case but there is so little evidence they still can't charge anybody with a crime?

Now THAT is a crime in and of itself, imo.

Heyes

11-24-2007, 03:06 PM

I would say this time it's being played with desperation.

The desperation that comes with the knowledge this is their last shot.
so you think some 20 odd investigators from the NL and the prosecutors office and the judge are desperate?
Ok..
I think they are finally getting the goods on the perps.
IMO!

Grandad

11-24-2007, 03:06 PM

So if AP stated that Joran had to be extradited it's TRUTH, and FOX won't go any further to find out the veracity of this?

Now that's some fine journalism.

I don't think they do check the veracity of any report they get.

With whom would they check? Greta?

Might they axe Ted Williams?

Grandad

11-24-2007, 03:07 PM

so you think some 20 odd investigators from the NL and the prosecutors office and the judge are desperate?
Ok..
I think they are finally getting the goods on the perps.
IMO!

Only the prosecutor.

Heyes

11-24-2007, 03:08 PM

There are killers in this case but there is so little evidence they still can't charge anybody with a crime?

Now THAT is a crime in and of itself, imo.

Heh, heh, yeah I know.
You have the ALE to blame for that.

ooops! almost forgot...
IMO!

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 03:12 PM

I would say this time it's being played with desperation.

The desperation that comes with the knowledge this is their last shot.

Some have stated that the case would be closed December 31st of this year. Anita v.d. Sloot stated that OM had made a commitment to close the case on November 30th of this year (her comments available on youtube).

I find it rather coincidental that 8 days before the case was to be closed, according to Anita, OM is detaining these guys in a last ditch effort to be interrogated without the right of a lawyer based on lesser suspicions than the even the original kidnapping, gangrape and murder they supposedly started out with in the first place.

Stuiptrekking is a very good description IMO.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 03:16 PM

Heh, heh, yeah I know.
You have the ALE to blame for that.

ooops! almost forgot...
IMO!

I don't blame anybody for lack of charges, please don't project.

I believe the veracity of the new evidence is about as strong as the donkey bones, the dog blood soaked mattress and the blond hair stuck to the ductape.

But isn't the speculation fun, look how much life this forum has gotten in the past few days.

Natalee who?

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 03:20 PM

I'm reading at CTV and they are linking to this Forum. I guess you guys are pretty smart.:hat:

I really believe this forum is more credible than some news articles. Mainly, because everyting gets challenged!

MOO

Heyes

11-24-2007, 03:27 PM

Some have stated that the case would be closed December 31st of this year. Anita v.d. Sloot stated that OM had made a commitment to close the case on November 30th of this year (her comments available on youtube).
snipped.

.

please link to anita's youtube statement.
TIA
I haven't heard this comment.

imo

No Nic

11-24-2007, 03:37 PM

please link to anita's youtube statement.
TIA
I haven't heard this comment.

imo

http://www.iconbazaar.com/arrows/arrw01_31a.gif

Heyes

11-24-2007, 03:54 PM

http://www.iconbazaar.com/arrows/arrw01_31a.gif

lol
:seeya:

sieg66

11-24-2007, 03:58 PM

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 04:08 PM

Hi everyone I'm from Holland.....I think Joran is guilty. But if Aruban laws are anything like Dutch laws it won't matter. He'll either get away with it or will serve a few years in a luxury cell with lots of exercise, own tv, so that won't be too much of a punishment, will it?
Joran is very independent and resists authority. I would think it would be horrible. For me, it sounds like fun. But I'd want a computer with Internet access.

MOO

Grandad

11-24-2007, 04:18 PM

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 04:18 PM

please link to anita's youtube statement.
TIA
I haven't heard this comment.

imo

It's available on the RU thread named "Breaking News. K2J re arrested"

It's in Dutch, I don't think it will be of much help to you.

No Nic

11-24-2007, 04:18 PM

Hi everyone I'm from Holland.....I think Joran is guilty. But if Aruban laws are anything like Dutch laws it won't matter. He'll either get away with it or will serve a few years in a luxury cell with lots of exercise, own tv, so that won't be too much of a punishment, will it?

Hi, sieg66 and welcome to the board. Sadly, I agree with you regarding any punishment he would get, minimal and easily served. Why is that?

imo

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 04:22 PM

Guilty of what?

Great question. I think the prosecution feels that if they keep throwing enough spaghetti on the walls some of it eventually might stick.

Unfortunately for the prosecution the walls aren't judges.

sieg66

11-24-2007, 04:36 PM

Riviera

11-24-2007, 05:04 PM

Just a reminder ---->

All Posts are Subject to Review

Crime Library reserves the right to remove any postings (although it has no duty to do so), for example, notes that are off the subject or not in English.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=280560

sieg66

11-24-2007, 05:06 PM

Joran is very independent and resists authority. I would think it would be horrible. For me, it sounds like fun. But I'd want a computer with Internet access.

MOO

sounds like a typical teenager to me.....

No Nic

11-24-2007, 05:12 PM

sounds like a typical teenager to me.....

In no way do I believe Joran to be a "typical" teenager, if he is God help us all.

imo

sieg66

11-24-2007, 05:18 PM

In no way do I believe Joran to be a "typical" teenager, if he is God help us all.

imo

I often wonder about this. Picture yourself very old in a retirement home and left to take care of you is the generation who kills eachother over an ipod or just making the wrong remark...

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 05:22 PM

Great question. I think the prosecution feels that if they keep throwing enough spaghetti on the walls some of it eventually might stick.

.

I don't think the Prosection feels that at all.
This is what Hans Mos said:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html?iref=24hours

SNIP:There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 05:37 PM

Not guilty of murder. I don't think he set out to kill Natalee. But I think he inadvertely hurt her and she died... He held it together for a long time....
Holland is a very great country... but we're overly tolerant......Your crime must be of a very gruesome and filthy nature to get a maximum punishment.(Or write threathening letters to our M.P.That also does the job...).When this is not the case you serve a few years and then you go in a treatment facitlity and if you're really really sorry...then you can go....

I recently had the opportunity to discuss various aspects of this case with a Dutch lawyer. Unfortunately, I neglected to ask him what the difference is between manslaughter and inflicting bodily injury that leads to death.

I'm assuming it's pretty much the same as the difference between voluntary manslaughter and involuntary manslaughter in this country.

Here, involuntary manslaughter is not generally considered a serious crime, and the punishment is often a suspended sentence, or probation.

Understandably, friends and family of the victim don't usually agree that is adequate punishment, but there are good reasons why there are varying degrees of most crimes.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 05:41 PM

I don't think the Prosection feels that at all.
This is what Hans Mos said:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/23/holloway.arrest/index.html?iref=24hours

SNIP:There's no doubt in my mind that she's dead ... I think we have enough evidence to prove the girl is not alive anymore, even without a body," Hans Mos said.

Sounds like what some posters on this board have been saying for two and a half years, but saying it over and over just hasn't made it true.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 05:42 PM

I often wonder about this. Picture yourself very old in a retirement home and left to take care of you is the generation who kills eachother over an ipod or just making the wrong remark...

There is nothing flawed about an entire generation, IMO.
There are criminals in every generation, IMO.

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 05:46 PM

Sounds like what some posters on this board have been saying for two and a half years, but saying it over and over just hasn't made it true.Perception can be more powerful than truth and very seductive.

MOO.

chambord

11-24-2007, 05:46 PM

I often wonder about this. Picture yourself very old in a retirement home and left to take care of you is the generation who kills eachother over an ipod or just making the wrong remark...

Yikes!! That is scary, especially if there is a generation of Jorans growing up. God save us all.

moo

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 05:47 PM

Sounds like what some posters on this board have been saying for two and a half years, but saying it over and over just hasn't made it true.

The Chief Prosecutor has nothing in common with posters on a message board, IMO.
He has access to the entire investigative file and the actual evidence.
I think he seems confident he can prove what he alleges, JMO
It is not unusual for a cold case to be solved via new evidence, IMO.
And, if some of the initial evidence was analyzed improperly and has now been properly tested, this bodes well for the Prosecution's case, IMO.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 05:49 PM

Perception can be more powerful than truth and very seductive.

MOO.

The Chief Prosecutor referred to EVIDENCE, not perception.
I doubt very much he believes a Judge will be "seduced", JMO.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 06:34 PM

The Chief Prosecutor has nothing in common with posters on a message board, IMO.
He has access to the entire investigative file and the actual evidence.
I think he seems confident he can prove what he alleges, JMO
It is not unusual for a cold case to be solved via new evidence, IMO.
And, if some of the initial evidence was analyzed improperly and has now been properly tested, this bodes well for the Prosecution's case, IMO.

The only thing that would bode well for the prosecution's case would be filing charges.

If he had evidence, he would have filed charges.

All he's done is ask for time to interrogate the suspects.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 06:39 PM

The only thing that would bode well for the prosecution's case would be filing charges.

If he had evidence, he would have filed charges.

All he's done is ask for time to interrogate the suspects.

There is no reason for the Prosecutor to rush his case, IMO.
And, I think interrogations at this time could yield additional evidence.
What he has successfully done is bring sufficient evidence to re-detain the suspects and keep them in custody for 8 more days... this is no small accomplishment, IMO.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 06:44 PM

There is no reason for the Prosecutor to rush his case, IMO.
And, I think interrogations at this time could yield additional evidence.
What he has successfully done is bring sufficient evidence to re-detain the suspects and keep them in custody for 8 more days... this is no small accomplishment, IMO.

It is indeed a small accomplishment because he has not yet presented the "new evidence" to the court.

All he's done is asked to detain the suspects so that he can confront them with this evidence, and question them about it.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 06:59 PM

It is indeed a small accomplishment because he has not yet presented the "new evidence" to the court.

All he's done is asked to detain the suspects so that he can confront them with this evidence, and question them about it.

Are you purporting that you were present in the Kalpoe hearing on Friday so you know this to be fact? If not, please supply a link that the OM did not present new evidence to the court on Friday, TIA.
What you believe does not comport with what has been reported, IMO.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 07:07 PM

The Chief Prosecutor referred to EVIDENCE, not perception.
I doubt very much he believes a Judge will be "seduced", JMO.

The chief prosecutor, from your link said "I think".

That is a perception, not a fact.

Grandad

11-24-2007, 07:09 PM

Are you purporting that you were present in the Kalpoe hearing on Friday so you know this to be fact? If not, please supply a link that the OM did not present new evidence to the court on Friday, TIA.
What you believe does not comport with what has been reported, IMO.

I posted earlier that my information comes from a Dutch attorney.

If you choose not to believe it, fine.

But until you can provide a link to a spokesperson for the court that says evidence was presented, I'll believe what I was told by someone with actual experience with the Dutch/Aruban judicial system.

I'm sure you can link to a few "news" sources that would agree with you, but if someone wanted to take the time he could link to thousands of "news" sources that have been proved inaccurate.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 07:11 PM

There is no reason for the Prosecutor to rush his case, IMO.
And, I think interrogations at this time could yield additional evidence.
What he has successfully done is bring sufficient evidence to re-detain the suspects and keep them in custody for 8 more days... this is no small accomplishment, IMO.

IMO it's more:

Donkey bones
DNA encrusted toothbrushes
Signed confessions
Skeeter tapes
Dog blood soaked mattresses
Blond hair stuck to ductape

Imo indeed just a last desperate attempt before they have to close the case.

No small accomplishment? They've gone down from gangrape, kidnap and murder to manslaughter. We'll see lol.

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 07:47 PM

Not guilty of murder. I don't think he set out to kill Natalee. But I think he inadvertely hurt her and she died... He held it together for a long time....
Holland is a very great country... but we're overly tolerant......Your crime must be of a very gruesome and filthy nature to get a maximum punishment.(Or write threathening letters to our M.P.That also does the job...).When this is not the case you serve a few years and then you go in a treatment facitlity and if you're really really sorry...then you can go....

Hello sieg

I'm sorry it took so long to respond. <self edited for self preservation>. Slow internet connections suck.

I agree that Dutch society is rather tolerant of convicted criminals. However, there as yet has to be evidence provided that shows that Natalee's disappearance was the result of a crime.

Also please don't forget that IF the guys are tried on Aruba AND they are somehow convicted they will be going to an Aruban jail. They're not as comfy and cozy as the Dutch - what I can only call - guest houses.

I'll look it up in a bit, but I believe that Aruba still has torture on it's books as being legal. I was researching it a bit the other day but a busy work schedule and a nasty cold got in the way. I'll see if I can find it.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 08:05 PM

Imo indeed just a last desperate attempt before they have to close the case.

No small accomplishment? They've gone down from gangrape, kidnap and murder to manslaughter. We'll see lol.

I disagree it is a desperate attempt, since IIRC, it's reported Dutch investigators worked the case for months, and it's reported there is new evidence. JMO
It isn't about "going down from", IMO. It is about showing/ proving exactly what happened to Natalee, and showing/proving who is responsible for causing her harm, IMO. If there are charges, they should reflect the truth according to the evidence, IMO. Isn't that what you purport you want, the truth? Do you believe the Dutch & Aruban investigators and Prosecutor are incompetent?
Voluntary manslaughter can carry a sentence of up to 15 years in prison, not a small penalty IMO. And, if it is proven vm was committed during commission of another crime, it could carry a sentence of life imprisonment, JMO.
Didn't Deepak tell Joran he would get 15 years if they found her body?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#The_Netherlands
SNIP:Voluntary manslaughter (doodslag) is punishable by a prison sentence of up to 15 years, or life imprisonment when committed during the commission of a crime or as an act of terrorism

Grandad

11-24-2007, 08:13 PM

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 08:28 PM

I disagree it is a desperate attempt, since IIRC, it's reported Dutch investigators worked the case for months, and it's reported there is new evidence. JMO
It isn't about "going down from", IMO. It is about showing/ proving exactly what happened to Natalee, and showing/proving who is responsible for causing her harm, IMO. If there are charges, they should reflect the truth according to the evidence, IMO. Isn't that what you purport you want, the truth? Do you believe the Dutch & Aruban investigators and Prosecutor are incompetent?
Voluntary manslaughter can carry a sentence of up to 15 years in prison, not a small penalty IMO. And, if it is proven vm was committed during commission of another crime, it could carry a sentence of life imprisonment, JMO.
Didn't Deepak tell Joran he would get 15 years if they found her body?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#The_Netherlands
SNIP:Voluntary manslaughter (doodslag) is punishable by a prison sentence of up to 15 years, or life imprisonment when committed during the commission of a crime or as an act of terrorism

I think that there is a communication gap. KLPD was asked to assist with the investigation. They couldn't nor can they take over and I think they'll be quite happy if they can wash their hands of it.

Yes KLPD worked the case for months but they don't lay charges, the Aruba OM does, based on whatever it can find.

I appreciate that you disagree with my opinion but the FACT remains that instead of the persons of interest being held in connection of the ALLEGED kidnap, gangrape and murder case, has been downsized to manslaughter. You would agree that a person charged with kidnap, gangrape and murder would be in more trouble than a person charged with manslaughter would you not?

I have not stated that I believe that ALE or KLPD are incompetent, I have not stated that I believe that the OM is incompetent. I have opined that the Aruban OM might be somewhat overly zealous. Judges will let us know in the end. I trust the legal system.

I have no idea what Deepak told Joran about 15 yrs anywhere. I wasn't there. Let's just say that the only minor in this case was Joran. Sentences would be awarded as such, if the case ever made it to trial and a conviction was made. I think 15 yrs would be overly optimistic on your part.

imo

Chocoholic

11-24-2007, 08:32 PM

Isn't reducing the seriousness of the crime to gain an advantage in questioning the suspects an act of desperation in itself?

Absolutely. Without the OM reducing the basis of their alleged suspected crime, they wouldn't be able to re-interrogate any of the persons of interest. They would have to have far more evidence.

As I said.. I'm wiling to wait for more donkey bones and DNA encrusted toothbrushes. Not sure if judges are going to be quite to patient though.

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 08:50 PM

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 08:51 PM

The chief prosecutor, from your link said "I think".

That is a perception, not a fact.Perhaps he should have said MOO.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 08:55 PM

Reportedly there is a deadline. MOO

I seriously doubt an 8 day period of interrogation is going to get in the way of a deadline, JMO If there is a deadline, I have little doubt the Prosecutor is fully aware of this, and will be ready to proceed with a summation if/when necessary, JMO.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 09:01 PM

Are you saying Deepak is an oracle or a legal expert?

If Deepak has actual knowledge of a crime, he is, at best, an accomplice.

If the prosecutor had not changed the suspicions, he would not have the opportunity to question the suspects without their attorneys being present.

Isn't reducing the seriousness of the crime to gain an advantage in questioning the suspects an act of desperation in itself?

Re-read my post, I said no such thing about Deepak.
I don't think alleging a lesser crime is an act of desperation IF the new evidence supports voluntary manslaughter, and this lesser charge represents the truth as to what happened, JMO.
Who has said the alleged crime was reduced in order to gain an advantage?
Link, please.

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 09:04 PM

I have no idea what Deepak told Joran about 15 yrs anywhere. I wasn't there. imo

You can read a transcript here:

http://www.amw.com/pdf/arubaTranscript3.pdf

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 09:06 PM

Absolutely. Without the OM reducing the basis of their alleged suspected crime, they wouldn't be able to re-interrogate any of the persons of interest. They would have to have far more evidence.

.

Since you state this as fact, could you supply a link to a published source stating this is true? TIA.

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 09:35 PM

I seriously doubt an 8 day period of interrogation is going to get in the way of a deadline, JMO If there is a deadline, I have little doubt the Prosecutor is fully aware of this, and will be ready to proceed with a summation if/when necessary, JMO.He is aware of it, he mentioned it. MOO
He is proceeding with haste. MOO
I remember ALE proceeding with haste previously. MOO

JustMyOpinion

11-24-2007, 09:37 PM

He is aware of it, he mentioned it. MOO
He is proceeding with haste. MOO

I have little doubt he was fully prepared before they detained these suspects, JMO

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 09:50 PM

Luke Davis

11-24-2007, 09:51 PM

I have little doubt he was fully prepared before they detained these suspects, JMO
With each arrest, I have more doubt. MOO

fairmaiden

11-24-2007, 10:22 PM

Perhaps he should have said MOO.

LOL, Luke .... :D

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 01:02 AM

Since you state this as fact, could you supply a link to a published source stating this is true? TIA.

Again?

ok

http://www.recht4all.nl/wetten/w/wbk_vn_strfrcht.htm

It auto-translates to English.

HiLife

11-25-2007, 01:11 AM

Forensic profiling technique decodes map to Natalee Holloway’s likely watery grave

Finally getting some interest (http://forensicthoughtprints.com/natalee-holloway-watery-grave.html)

The key to the location of Natalee's remains. MOO

Hello Everyone! Still not back, but at least now I'm out of the mountain cabin with no TV, phone or internet to a WI-FI Hotel. Been racing, trying to catch up with all the posts and all the latest news!

On my trip, I finally got around to reading, "The Lovely Bones." As I've mentioned before, I am definitely not a "cryer" - but boy oh boy - I cried throughout this entire book. It is fiction, about a 14 year old girl who was "disappeared" and murdered. The only remains that were found were an elbow and they never recovered her body or knew what happened to her - turned out the father focused in fairly quickly on the killer - but when reading this book, before knowing about the latest J2K arrests, my heart was tortured for Beth.

This book, though fiction (I couldn't put it down), described the devastating ordeal of the entire family, trying to cope with the murder of their daughter/sibling and not having any information. It made me literally ache for the Holloways, especially Beth - the raw pain she must feel - the not knowing has to turn her inside out with grief. I even prayed in anguish, pleading for information about Natalee. Imagine my surprise when I later heard of the new arrests!!

Luke - This was such an interesting read, but the guy is kind of vague as to what the supposed emails from Deepak actually said, isn't he?

Thanks also for a wonderful link last week on another thread of a youtube of Beth being interviewed in Colorado - the way she said that each morning, she "wakes up and has to make a conscious effort not to be bitter".....this has stuck with me for days.

Heyes - LMBO about Anita needing a beach towel for Paulus' sweat! My heart is singing for joy, too!

No Nic - Nice post and 24hora link as to the ARREST of J2K. Also, Why, oh Why does Anita lie? What was that lying spin about Joran's arrest? And where he was arrested? She needs a refresher course on lying from Joran - oops, Joran can't help, he's locked up and she can't visit!

JMO - Thanks for all the factual reporting.

Nately - Welcome and thanks for the translations! It is so refreshing having someone who actually speaks Dutch helping us out with the translations. I see you (thankfully) don't get hung up with the word "arrest!" ;)

Welcome to all the new nics = BeeBee, Siege66, DocWho3 !

----------------------------
I'm so thankful this has happened and hopeful that the Holloway family will see justice served.

JMO!

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 01:36 AM

Nately - Welcome and thanks for the translations! It is so refreshing having someone who actually speaks Dutch helping us out with the translations. I see you (thankfully) don't get hung up with the word "arrest!" ;)
JMO!

Don't worry hl, no respectable English-only-speaking person would be able do discern me from a person who "actually speaks Dutch".

Try detainment. :D Can you please explain "voorarrest"?

What is the difference between being detained and not arrested?

How about transported/deported/extradited?

Ai no dat mai inglish is goed, maar mai dutsh is even goeder. :D

Is there any good reason yet why the OM hasn't actually charged any of the persons of interest with a crime? Why are they pussyfooting around?

HiLife

11-25-2007, 01:50 AM

Don't worry hl, no respectable English-only-speaking person would be able do discern me from a person who "actually speaks Dutch".

Try detainment. :D Can you please explain "voorarrest"?

What is the difference between being detained and not arrested?

How about transported/deported/extradited?

Ai no dat mai inglish is goed, maar mai dutsh is even goeder. :D

Is there any good reason yet why the OM hasn't actually charged any of the persons of interest with a crime? Why are they pussyfooting around?

I think we can all wait until next week, when more information will be known (hopefully!) Parsing and mincing words looks like a weak line of defense.

jmo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 01:54 AM

Loving Natalee: The True Story of the Aruba Kidnapping and Its Aftermath (Mass Market Paperback)
by Beth Holloway (Author)
List Price: $7.99

It doesn't even have a rating anymore.

http://www.amazon.com/Loving-Natalee-Story-Kidnapping-Aftermath/dp/0061468797

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:00 AM

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:02 AM

I think we can all wait until next week, when more information will be known (hopefully!) Parsing and mincing words looks like a weak line of defense.

jmo

Wait 8 days.

If parsing and mincing words is a weak line of defense why did you bring up the line of: "Welcome and thanks for the translations! It is so refreshing having someone who actually speaks Dutch helping us out with the translations. I see you (thankfully) don't get hung up with the word "arrest!"?

You may not have agreed with my point of view but I doubt that YOU can find any fault with my ability to translate from Dutch to English or visa versa, if anybody does I will. Heck, some people on this board don't even know the difference between "verses" and "versus".

Parsing words is not a weak line of defense. It's what this case on this board and many others is about. Who said what and what did it mean.

Skeeter tape mean anything to you?
"Signed" confessions?
Encrusted DNA?
"Charged" when nobody was ever charged?

Parsing words is a debate. I'm old, give me a moment, there's something my granny told me about heat and kitchen. I say let's get cooking!

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:04 AM

What importance is the rating?

Book Ratings = 0

List Price = $7.99

J2K in Jail = PRICELESS!

jmo

Wasn't the book about the Truth about the kidnapping, gangrape and murder of Natalee? Seems the truth took a plunge.

RE J2K. only until they're released. I doubt that the book's price will ever regain it's value, whereas the boys have nowhere to go but up.

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:07 AM

Only until they're released. I doubt that the book's price will ever regain it's value, whereas the boys have nowhere to go but up.

I disagree. Even if those men are released, they will be forever tainted by this, and rightfully so. They lied. They cruelly, viciously, callously lied to a family desperate to find their daughter.

Nope, I say, "where there's smoke, there's fire." And I'd say it is a 3 Alarm one!

jmo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:09 AM

Wait 8 days.

<snipped>

Parsing words is not a weak line of defense. It's what this case on this board and many others is about. Who said what and what did it mean.

Skeeter tape mean anything to you?
"Signed" confessions?
Encrusted DNA?
"Charged" when nobody was ever charged?

Parsing words is a debate. I'm old, give me a moment, there's something my granny told me about heat and kitchen. I say let's get cooking!

ALE would not dare do this whole dog and pony show if there was not some kind of hard evidence. I can't imagine what would happen to poor Aruba if this was all just smoke and mirrors again. No, I have to believe they can finally nail the three liars this time.

jmo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:11 AM

I disagree. Even if those men are released, they will be forever tainted by this, and rightfully so. They lied. They cruelly, viciously, callously lied to a family desperate to find their daughter.

Nope, I say, "where there's smoke, there's fire." And I'd say it is a 3 Alarm one!

jmo

Whatever your belief may be, they have nowhere but to go up.

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:16 AM

ALE would not dare do this whole dog and pony show if there was not some kind of hard evidence. I can't imagine what would happen to poor Aruba if this was all just smoke and mirrors again. No, I have to believe they can finally nail the three liars this time.

jmo

WHOA, stop the ponies. "poor Aruba"???? Is this the same "poor Aruba" that was considered corrupt? The same Aruba that hid the scoundrels and hid evidence? The same crowd that said "Boycott Aruba!!!"? Hang on, I have a cold, coughing on this end.

Since Joran was in prison for 116 days, and the judges released him (under the ever-so-rascally hurricane Katrina) can you please advise us what stronger evidence they have now for manslaughter that they didn't have for kidnapping, gangrape and murder 2.5 yrs agoe, and why in heaven's name won't the prosecutor just plain out lay criminal charges instead of just detaining them - again? They wouldn't dare? LOL I am betting they are.

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:19 AM

WHOA, stop the ponies. "poor Aruba"???? Is this the same "poor Aruba" that was considered corrupt? The same Aruba that hid the scoundrels and hid evidence? Hang on, I have a cold, coughing on this end.

Since Joran was in prison for 116 days, and the judges released him (under the ever-so-rascally hurricane Katrina) can you please advise us what stronger evidence they have now for manslaughter that they didn't have for kidnapping, gangrape and murder 2.5 yrs agoe, and why in heaven's name won't the prosecutor just plain out lay criminal charges instead of just detaining them - again?

My, you're so impatient! We'll just have to wait this week for the evidence. Joran should never have been released. ALE dropped the ball and the new Dutch investigators uncovered something. Didn't I read in a previous link that if they knew what they know now, that they would never have released J2K?

Interesting. Time will tell.

jmo

No Nic

11-25-2007, 02:39 AM

Whatever your belief may be, they have nowhere but to go up.

Not until they have hit bottom, imo. Rock bottom at Kia prison for the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Ann Holloway, according the the Aruban prosecutor.

imo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:39 AM

My, you're so impatient! We'll just have to wait this week for the evidence. Joran should never have been released. ALE dropped the ball and the new Dutch investigators uncovered something. Didn't I read in a previous link that if they knew what they know now, that they would never have released J2K?

Interesting. Time will tell.

jmo

In your opinion I guess I'm impatient.

Generally the Dutch and Aruban legal system allows for 2 years for "voorarrest" before charges must be laid. Judges have deemed that there wasn't enough evidence to charge anybody with a crime.

If KLPD has the evidence to turn over to Aruba OM and they are now able to lay charges why don't they? Why detain the persons of interest? Is it because there isn't enough evidence or is it a last desperate attempt to interrogate the persons of interest.

I have no idea what you read, I don't do headtapping.

We also have no idea what new evidence the KLPD turned over, if anything for the Aruba OM to re-interrogate the persons of interest based on the now new suspected manslaughter investigation. Please consider that the kidnapping, gangrape and murder investigation has been dropped. The new investigation into manslaughter will be interesting, though I doubt for long.

Just as a last, I don't see myself as impatient. I have seen plenty of people on this thread alone that have stated that it's "about time" that J2K are back in jail. I prefer to wait for the evidence.

I don't think that makes me impatient. :) Can you refresh my memory again regarding how long a suspect is allowed to be held under arrest before LE must lay charges in the US?

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:44 AM

In your opinion I guess I'm impatient.

Generally the Dutch and Aruban legal system allows for 2 years for "voorarrest" before charges must be laid. Judges have deemed that there wasn't enough evidence to charge anybody with a crime.

If KLPD has the evidence to turn over to Aruba OM and they are now able to lay charges why don't they? Why detain the persons of interest? Is it because there isn't enough evidence or is it a last desperate attempt to interrogate the persons of interest.

I have no idea what you read, I don't do headtapping.

We also have no idea what new evidence the KLPD turned over, if anything for the Aruba OM to re-interrogate the persons of interest based on the now new suspected manslaughter investigation. Please consider that the kidnapping, gangrape and murder investigation has been dropped. The new investigation into manslaughter will be interesting, though I doubt for long.

Just as a last, I don't see myself as impatient. I have seen plenty of people on this thread alone that have stated that it's "about time" that J2K are back in jail. I prefer to wait for the evidence.
I don't think that makes me impatient. :)

In order of highlighted:

1) I think you're still thinking/living in the past with this statement.

2) WHO says rape and kidnapped have been dropped? Why is "voluntary manslaughter" "better" than kidnapping, murder or rape? They are all ALL reprehensible and voluntary manslaughter means he killed her. Killed her. Is there such a thing as being "a little bit pregnant?"

3) I believe the "evidence" is here already, according to what is coming out of Aruba.

JMO

HiLife

11-25-2007, 02:46 AM

Not until they have hit bottom, imo. Rock bottom at Kia prison for the voluntary manslaughter of Natalee Ann Holloway, according the the Aruban prosecutor.

imo

Terrific answer!

Even if released, these men will never be able to live their lives without this hanging over them! And they shouldn't, because their cruel, callous lies deserve no less!

jmo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 02:56 AM

In order of highlighted:

1) I think you're still thinking/living in the past with this statement.

2) WHO says rape and kidnapped have been dropped? Why is "voluntary manslaughter" "better" than kidnapping, murder or rape? They are all ALL reprehensible and voluntary manslaughter means he killed her. Killed her. Is there such a thing as being "a little bit pregnant?"

3) I believe the "evidence" is here already, according to what is coming out of Aruba.

JMO

1) In your opinion.
2) Were any of the persons of interest held on the suspected/alledged crime? If not then then it was deemed that evidence wasn't sufficient to lay charges for those crimes. Is there enough evidence to lay charges for manslaughter now? If not why aren't they charged?
3) see above.

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 03:00 AM

Even if released, these men will never be able to live their lives without this hanging over them! And they shouldn't, because their cruel, callous lies deserve no less!

jmo

IMO beth deserves the same. Link to beths lies and inconsistencies available on this board.

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:04 AM

IMO beth deserves the same. Link to beths lies and inconsistencies available on this board.

Why, oh why does Anita lie?

jmo

No Nic

11-25-2007, 03:05 AM

IMO beth deserves the same. Link to beths lies and inconsistencies available on this board.

Links to the Van der Sloot's (Paulus, Anita and Joran) lies are available on all cable shows, printed in many newspapers (both dutch and USA), on internet news sites and all over numerous message boards.

The thread you are referring to are simply your very own interpretations. Means nothing.

imo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:06 AM

1) In your opinion.
2) Were any of the persons of interest held on the suspected/alledged crime? If not then then it was deemed that evidence wasn't sufficient to lay charges for those crimes. Is there enough evidence to lay charges for manslaughter now? If not why aren't they charged?
3) see above.

No one has said rape and kidnapped have been dropped. No matter, voluntary manslaughter is enough to keep J2K in prison for a long time.

Voluntary manslaughter means they killed Natalee.

jmo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:07 AM

Links to the Van der Sloot's (Paulus, Anita and Joran) lies are available on all cable shows, printed in many newspapers (both dutch and USA), on internet news sites and all over numerous message boards.

The thread you are referring to are simply your very own interpretations. Means nothing.

imo

Oh, and you forgot that the lies are also found in Joran's book of fiction.

jmo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 03:07 AM

No Nic

11-25-2007, 03:08 AM

Why, oh why does Anita lie?

jmo

Now, now, HiLife, Anita doesn't lie, she "is maybe not lying, but is like trying to cover up a little bit". ;)

imo

No Nic

11-25-2007, 03:10 AM

Oh, and you forgot that the lies are also found in Joran's book of fiction.

jmo

:eek: How could I forget that "best seller" that is most likely found in the sociopath section of every Dutch bookstore and library.

imo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:13 AM

Like a flash from the past, poor Aruba according to you?

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?t=280943&page=18

As usual, your link has nothing to do with what we're discussing :shrug:

What you have written in your post, I have never said.

I feel sorry for ARUBA, NOT Aruban Law Enforcement and Government Officials and Heads of The Aruban Tourist Board.

Funny how Paulus is the one who doesn't give a rip about Aruba - he was trying to squeeze $29,000 in a law suit for his detainment - when it was his own son who caused it. Joran. But Paulus felt the poor Aruban taxpayer had to foot the bill for his son's malicious actions. Go figure.

jmo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:14 AM

:eek: How could I forget that "best seller" that is most likely found in the sociopath section of every Dutch bookstore and library.

imo

Along with OJ's "If I Did It" and Saddam Hussein's future book (not out yet).

jmo

Chocoholic

11-25-2007, 03:17 AM

No one has said rape and kidnapped have been dropped. No matter, voluntary manslaughter is enough to keep J2K in prison for a long time.

Voluntary manslaughter means they killed Natalee.

jmo

You're right, I'm impatient.

The fact that none of the persons of interest have been charged,with kidnapping, gangrape or murder, and subsequently released, under Dutch law means that the prosecution couldn't come up with enough evidence.

They're now trying for manslaughter, in the same manner the prosecution was trying for gangrape, kidnapping and murder previously.

Perhaps in your opinion that's a win. From where I sit, manslaughter is a far cry from gangrape, kidnapping and murder. Again, please remember that the persons of interest are held for the greatest alleged suspected crime.

I just hope that Natalee is living her life happily without the encumbrances of her daily coachings.

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:20 AM

You're right, I'm impatient.

The fact that none of the persons of interest have been charged,with kidnapping, gangrape or murder, and subsequently released, under Dutch law means that the prosecution couldn't come up with enough evidence.

They're now trying for manslaughter, in the same manner the prosecution was trying for gangrape, kidnapping and murder previously.

Perhaps in your opinion that's a win. From where I sit, manslaughter is a far cry from gangrape, kidnapping and murder. Again, please remember that the persons of interest are held for the greatest alleged suspected crime.

I just hope that Natalee is living her life happily without the encumbrances of her daily coachings.

I'm sure they're trying what will stick best. Some things are harder to prove than others. Sounds like they have the evidence for "manslaughter" (murder). That is despicable enough for me. Hope they make it stick.

jmo

HiLife

11-25-2007, 03:25 AM

Nite, all! Can hardly wait for Monday! :seeya:

No Nic

11-25-2007, 03:26 AM

As usual, your link has nothing to do with what we're discussing :shrug:

What you have written in your post, I have never said.

I feel sorry for ARUBA, NOT Aruban Law Enforcement and Government Officials and Heads of The Aruban Tourist Board.

Funny how Paulus is the one who doesn't give a rip about Aruba - he was trying to squeeze $29,000 in a law suit for his detainment - when it was his own son who caused it. Joran. But Paulus felt the poor Aruban taxpayer had to foot the bill for his son's malicious actions. Go figure.

jmo

If Joran had been released as a suspect instead of being re-detained, re-arrested, I bet he would have also tried to squeeze $$$ out of those "poor Arubans" himself.

BTW, what do you suppose is going to become of K2s California law suit? How can they sue someone from jail? Bwahahahahahaha

Wonder if Anita is still going to publish her book of lies? I think she will now have to do a bit of editing. Bwahahahahaha

imo