Madeleine McCann Discussion

[gojo]

JAYELLE SAID: I would imagine she hoped to help police with their investigation. The McCanns have always said they'd do anything that was required of them.
--------------------------------

I must have it wrong, then. I understood that Kate knew the cops suspected her... and how could she not know? The grilling was to convince the McCann's to confess and plead guilty to a lesser crime.

I reckon I just don't see how submitting to a grilling by the cops would help the investigation. It makes the McCanns look guilty. They're afraid to say no to the cops.

You reckon the McCanns were afraid of a child endangerment charge if they said no to the cops? Even with that over my head, I would still say no.

--Gojo

[Nerida_F]

Here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2604032.ece) is a new sighting from Morocco by a woman who saw the "Mark of Madeleine" in her eye.

The upheaval in the investigation came as private detectives working for the McCanns were attempting to trace a new witness after a sighting in Morocco. According to Spanish police sources, a 30-year-old Moroccan woman, who lives in Malaga, Spain, reported seeing a girl who had the “mark of Madeleine”, referring to her distinctive right eye, where the pupil merges with the blue-green iris.

The woman was in the village of Fnidk on the north coast of Morocco when she saw a 50-year-old woman with the girl getting into a taxi. She tried to join them – sharing cabs is common in Morocco – but the woman refused to let her. She later discovered the taxi had taken them to the village of Housima. She described the girl as wearing an orange blouse with a dummy in her mouth.

Hopefully, this signifies a new phase of this case, where the captors must start to get complacent. I prefer to believe Madeleine is somewhere in Morocco or elsewhere in NAfrica rather than the other latest suggestion that she is buried in the beach. I really think that anybody who sees a possible Madeleine sighting should do everything they can without putting anyone in danger to check the sighting. Looking forward to hearing about the new ads and what they might lead to?? Here's hoping for the best.

[sluggie]

ihope with any fresh sightings there is going to be proper investigating by
whoever takes over the case, as i've just read that it's being scaled down from 4 detectives to just 3

[Eagle1]

ihope with any fresh sightings there is going to be proper investigating by whoever takes over the case, as i've just read that it's being scaled down from 4 detectives to just 3

Here's one link to that. Computer's slow today, must be a lot of Sunday traffic, hard to check if link works. I was tired of waiting. www.express.co.uk/posts/v...-Madeleine

[andU]

Here (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2604032.ece) is a new sighting from Morocco by a woman who saw the "Mark of Madeleine" in her eye.

The upheaval in the investigation came as private detectives working for the McCanns were attempting to trace a new witness after a sighting in Morocco. According to Spanish police sources, a 30-year-old Moroccan woman, who lives in Malaga, Spain, reported seeing a girl who had the “mark of Madeleine”, referring to her distinctive right eye, where the pupil merges with the blue-green iris.

The woman was in the village of Fnidk on the north coast of Morocco when she saw a 50-year-old woman with the girl getting into a taxi. She tried to join them – sharing cabs is common in Morocco – but the woman refused to let her. She later discovered the taxi had taken them to the village of Housima. She described the girl as wearing an orange blouse with a dummy in her mouth.

Hopefully, this signifies a new phase of this case, where the captors must start to get complacent. I prefer to believe Madeleine is somewhere in Morocco or elsewhere in NAfrica rather than the other latest suggestion that she is buried in the beach. I really think that anybody who sees a possible Madeleine sighting should do everything they can without putting anyone in danger to check the sighting. Looking forward to hearing about the new ads and what they might lead to?? Here's hoping for the best.

Is a 'dummy' what we in the US call a pacifier?

[Nerida_F]

Yes, andU a dummy is a pacifier - thanks for your previous kind words. If Madeleine is in Morocco, I hope the Portugal police are told to stay away since I believe their motives are not honest and there is some underlying deception happening - the way they are very keen to close the case. I would have though the Cipriano case would have been reviewed by now, and the Mrs Cipriano let out on bail at least. In Australia, we know our police are all now very honest - only because we have had 20 years of nonstop corruption.

I believe there are three ways to find Madeleine - track down her abductor in Portugal and follow the trail, have everyone on the look out for her, and lastly to wait for her to drop out on the adoption list. The last option may not happen for a while since I read that some abductions go on for around 9-10months so that the child forgets their previous life, and the parents give up hope. How much did Madonna pay for her last adoption - and the child was not even an orphan? I am hoping Madeleine gets found now before Christmas, but I would expect when/if she turns up, that she will not talk (or smile or laugh) for a long time.

[docwho3]

I was reading in the media links section about this case and all I can do is shake my head.

Ok, so far in this case we have had a leaky police force where news media was concerned, an allegedly lazy head police person who allegedly boozed too much and said the wrong things and who got fired and who might be under investigation for having confession beaten out of female suspects, and what sounds to me like "expert witch doctor type" DNA tracer who traced little Madeleine's DNA to a part of the beach, and now a human locator who can seemingly summon from the air the location of missing people and he says she is not far from where she disappeared but probably not alive. (That guess was realy hard for him to make wasn't it?)

All I can say is: It reminds me of that song with the lyric line "But where are the clowns? . . . .Quick, send in the clowns. . . .Don't bother, they're here. . ."

http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/alittlenightmusic/sendintheclowns.htm

[dallasvic]

I just read that the McCann's are in the clear. The DNA evidence is inconclusive. Hopefully they we focus on finding Maddie.
This Locater guy has found others. Hope he can locate Maddie where ever she maybe. He says he followed her DNA trail to the beach,but it stopped there,meaning possible that she was put on a boat.
If this is so the sighting were possible true also. Hope they focus on the sightings and locate Maddie.
The McCanns did not have anything to do with Maddie's death and they have been living in a nightmare since she became missing.

:rose: For~Maddie~&~Family:rose:

[Tia]

I read ANOTHER post that says the British police said the NEW DNA showed that the Portugal police were right on track. SO beats me. WHICH IS WHICH?

[Jayelles]

I read ANOTHER post that says the British police said the NEW DNA showed that the Portugal police were right on track. SO beats me. WHICH IS WHICH?

Source? The problem with people posting "I read..." or "I heard..." is that there is now way of knowing whether they 1) did so 2) did so accurately 3) made it up.

[sluggie]

heres a link to story about DNA link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486351&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[Tia]

I read it from SOMEONE who posted in ANOTHER THREAD. Not me read the newspaper. Must be my English :read:

[Jayelles]

heres a link to story about DNA link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=486351&in_page_id=1770&ct=5


Thank you.

But FSS sources are reported to have claimed that while the fresh DNA evidence does not provide conclusive proof, it does suggest, on balance, that the Portuguese police were right to make the couple arguidos, or official suspects.



So it's basically saying that they can see why the Portuguese police made them arguidos - but that the evidence just isn't there to support a conclusive argument against them.

What a lousy outcome.

[Jayelles]

I read it from SOMEONE who posted in ANOTHER THREAD. Not me read the newspaper. Must be my English :read:

Nevertheless, providing sources is a forum rule.

[Jayelles]

Just a point on this DNA evidence that is at the crux of the investigation. There are several issues arising from it:-

1) Having read umpteen of the news reports from today, the impression I am getting is that there was a question over whether the DNA in the car was Madeleine's or one of her siblings'. However, these most recent tests MAY indicate that the DNA is Madeleine's and not her siblings'.

2) This doesn't change the fact that the McCanns didn't have that hire car until 25 days following Madeleine's disappearance.

3) Investigators are going to have to prove that the DNA in the car was a primary source and not secondary transfer.

4) One talking head expert stated that a 25 day old body would have been in an advanced state of decomposition and that bluntly speaking, would have been leaking/shedding matter all over the place by that time - not to mention the smell which would have been detectable for some distance. (I cannot recall whether this was the guy from the documentary or someone talking to a newspaper but it's insignificant as the point is plain common sense).

5) So basically, if Maddie's decomposing body had been transferred in the hire car, there would have been DNA all over the place and not just in microscopic quantities.

The media camped outside the McCanns' doors from the moment Maddie went missing. They were followed on walks, followed the the church ... they simply didn't have the opportunity to go and dig up a decomposing body and carry it to their car without being seen (or smelt).

They couldn't have disposed of her body in the sea without the collaboration of some boat owner. I've looked at the area on Google Earth and the nearest marina is in Lagos - some 5 miles away from Praia da Luz. With the exception of the beach at Praia da Luz, the coast is mainly cliffs so there are very few landing points for a dinghy. People generally do not leave their dinghy's on the beach for others to steal and even if they do (for a short period of time say), they would typically take the oars or outboard to make the dinghy unusable.

That said, the talking head expert on the documentary last week said that they did not think Maddie had been dumped at sea because of the tides - that her body would have washed up pretty quickly. Even weighting a body down wouldn't be as easy as people think. The sea usually find a way of giving up the dead.

My guess is that the DNA in the car IS Maddie's and that it has been deposited through innocent secondary transfer. However, given what I've seen of the Portuguese police, I'm afraid I wouldn't rule out dirty tricks either.

[dallasvic]

If anyone needs references to any of my (quotes) you can find mine on Odettes day by day, hours by hour (Updates Only) thread.

So many articles on this case has me :confused:. Now new evidence points to the McCann's again. Just read this.:shrug: What is really going on here ?:shrug: How do we decide which is true and which is not.

Hey Jayelles,

Do you have a list of which articles that are not tabloid static and not. If so I would love to see it dearly.I could weed out the articles not to read.
If so PLEASE post it or PM it to me:seeya: PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe

Your Friend

[Jayelles]

If anyone needs references to any of my (quotes) you can find mine on Odettes day by day, hours by hour (Updates Only) thread.

So many articles on this case has me :confused:. Now new evidence points to the McCann's again. Just read this.:shrug: What is really going on here ?:shrug: How do we decide which is true and which is not.

Hey Jayelles,

Do you have a list of which articles that are not tabloid static and not. If so I would love to see it dearly.I could weed out the articles not to read.
If so PLEASE post it or PM it to me:seeya: PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEe

Your Friend

The worst tabloids are News of the World and the likes of The Star and Daily Sport. They are the kind of papers you get headlines like "An Alien ate my Baby" kind of stuff. They really are awful.

Most reputable are probably The Times, Guardian, Independent. If something gets written in them, the chances are it comes from a credible source and more likely to have been verified. Also, if there's no news, they sinply won't cover it. Unlike other newspapers, they won't weave an entire speculative article out of a teeny news snippet just to keep up their ratings.

Daily Mail and the Daily Express are a hit or a miss. They tend to have different journalists writing different (often opposing) articles. It's like they want to keep their options open and to appeal to both sides. They will both tend to keep popular news stories on the front page - often the same story witha different slant just to make sales. Daily Mail is good for commentary though.

The Sun will irritate by being sensationalist and frequently correct. It's a seedy newspaper in many respects but it very often scoops big stories and celebrities fear it because it it has cleverly survived/avoided numerous libel cases. It's owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns Fox News. He has a policy of not settling lawsuits out of court and for that reason, he apparently has strict policies about sources and wording so that they can simultaneously erport scandal and remain on the right side of the law.

[dallasvic]

The worst tabloids are News of the World and the likes of The Star and Daily Sport. They are the kind of papers you get headlines like "An Alien ate my Baby" kind of stuff. They really are awful.

Most reputable are probably The Times, Guardian, Independent. If something gets written in them, the chances are it comes from a credible source and more likely to have been verified. Also, if there's no news, they sinply won't cover it. Unlike other newspapers, they won't weave an entire speculative article out of a teeny news snippet just to keep up their ratings.

Daily Mail and the Daily Express are a hit or a miss. They tend to have different journalists writing different (often opposing) articles. It's like they want to keep their options open and to appeal to both sides. They will both tend to keep popular news stories on the front page - often the same story witha different slant just to make sales. Daily Mail is good for commentary though.

The Sun will irritate by being sensationalist and frequently correct. It's a seedy newspaper in many respects but it very often scoops big stories and celebrities fear it because it it has cleverly survived/avoided numerous libel cases. It's owned by Rupert Murdoch who owns Fox News. He has a policy of not settling lawsuits out of court and for that reason, he apparently has strict policies about sources and wording so that they can simultaneously erport scandal and remain on the right side of the law.


Thanks Jay,

This will really help me alot. I have read so much i don't know what to think:shrug:

Thanks Again

[Tia]

:shrug: HELLO. I am saying I read it from another thread in this Crime Library FORUm. ANd I was asking WHICH one is true. Am I getting my English through or not? WHICH IS WHICH means I was asking CAN SOMEONE VERIFY or help me with THAT line that I READ from another thread and tell me if it's true. For god's sake. My English must have sucks :shrug: Anyway, thanks for the links. I now know what is the DNA allegation about now. Shaking my head.

[Jayelles]

:shrug: HELLO. I am saying I read it from another thread in this Crime Library FORUm. ANd I was asking WHICH one is true. Am I getting my English through or not? WHICH IS WHICH means I was asking CAN SOMEONE VERIFY or help me with THAT line that I READ from another thread and tell me if it's true. For god's sake. My English must have sucks :shrug: Anyway, thanks for the links. I now know what is the DNA allegation about now. Shaking my head.

Calm down Tia. No-one is criticising your English.

The POINT is, that even if you read something on another thread/forum, it is helpful to provide a link to that thread - especially if what you are posting is a contradiction of something posted by another person. We all want to be able to separate fact from fiction. If you go to some of the other forums about this case, you will quickly identify a lot of posts which claims "I read somewhere that......." followed by an unsubstantiated load of codswallop. Alas, these kind of claims quickly become "facts" about the case - adopted by people who want them to be true.

[cat840]

4) One talking head expert stated that a 25 day old body would have been in an advanced state of decomposition and that bluntly speaking, would have been leaking/shedding matter all over the place by that time - not to mention the smell which would have been detectable for some distance.

If a body is packaged well(several plastic bags for example)the leaking would not neccessarily be huge. I think it is reasonable that a small leak in such a package could be the source of the DNA in the car IMO.

[Eagle1]

This may be a rather far-out guess, but while we're waiting for more definite facts, "what if" someone who'd handled Maddie, maybe even had her alive in the car, had to change a tire and deposited some of her DNA, along with maybe some other cells? Obviously I'm no scientist, don't know if that's possible, or if those cells decaying would give off any odor at all, probably not, because we rub off dead skin cells all the time which never develop any odor.

Surely someone has a better idea how a transfer could have happened. There have been so many sightings, and if I remember correctly NO mention that the car had any odor, correct?

[Jayelles]

If a body is packaged well(several plastic bags for example)the leaking would not neccessarily be huge. I think it is reasonable that a small leak in such a package could be the source of the DNA in the car IMO.

We are still left with the problem of where they stored the body for 25+ days. That's what the prosecution must explain.

[sharlock]

This may be a rather far-out guess, but while we're waiting for more definite facts, "what if" someone who'd handled Maddie, maybe even had her alive in the car, had to change a tire and deposited some of her DNA, along with maybe some other cells? Obviously I'm no scientist, don't know if that's possible, or if those cells decaying would give off any odor at all, probably not, because we rub off dead skin cells all the time which never develop any odor.

Surely someone has a better idea how a transfer could have happened. There have been so many sightings, and if I remember correctly NO mention that the car had any odor, correct?
Here's an idea, it could have been transferred by a police officer who new where maddie was and took dna from her to plant in the car in an attempt to confuse an investigation that could lead to a massively corrupt force who cooperates with pedo rings? Just an idea!:shrug:

[sharlock]

Here's an idea, it could have been transferred by a police officer who new where maddie was and took dna from her to plant in the car in an attempt to confuse an investigation that could lead to a massively corrupt force who cooperates with pedo rings? Just an idea!:shrug:
http://briansdreams.com/dd/5441pa66.jpg
I honestly don't know why these pictures are no longer causing concern. I think it is uncanny that the guy in the park is seen with following the portugese police and then in another talking to Robert Murat. This really freaks me out. It seems he is still a mystery man. Surely someone knows who he is?
Murat didn't travelled alone in his return to Portugal (http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/08/murat-didnt-travelled-alone-in-his.html)

[Jayelles]

http://briansdreams.com/dd/5441pa66.jpg
I honestly don't know why these pictures are no longer causing concern. I think it is uncanny that the guy in the park is seen with following the portugese police and then in another talking to Robert Murat. This really freaks me out. It seems he is still a mystery man. Surely someone knows who he is?
Murat didn't travelled alone in his return to Portugal (http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/08/murat-didnt-travelled-alone-in-his.html)

Do we know it's definitely the same guy? Bald/shaved heads are very "in vogue" these days. I'm afraid one shaved head looks pretty much the same as another to me!

[Jayelles]

It just gets more and more ridiculous. Now the Spanish media are claiming that other children were in the apartment along with the McCann children that night!

Portuguese police have upped the pressure on the so-called 'Tapas 9' by claiming that their children were in the McCanns' apartment when Madeleine went missing.

Portuguese newspaper 24 Horas has quoted a police source as saying that there were other children in the apartment that night, other than Madeleine and her brother and sister.

The McCann's friends have always claimed that their own children were in bed in their own apartments while they dined with the McCanns at the tapas restaurant Ocean Club resort in Praia da Luz.

They have also claimed that they made regular checks on their own children during the evening that Madeleine went missing.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=486646&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

(Daily Mail - hit or a miss).

Not sure whether Kate is supposed to have murdered Madeleine in front of these other kids or not....

It's a farce - nothing less.

[Jayelles]

Oh and we have also had the Masonic theory - that Gerry McCann is a freemason and that his crimes are being covered by the highest in the land.

Never mind the fact that Gerry McCann is a Catholic and that freemasonry and catholicism are incompatible!

Historically, one of Masonry's primary objectives has been the destruction of the Catholic Church; this is especially true of Freemasonry as it has existed in certain European countries. In the United States, Freemasonry is often little more than a social club, but it still espouses a naturalistic religion that contradicts orthodox Christianity. (Those interested in joining a men's club should consider the Knights of Columbus instead.)

The Church has imposed the penalty of excommunication on Catholics who become Freemasons. The penalty of excommunication for joining the Masonic Lodge was explicit in the 1917 code of canon law (canon 2335), and it is implicit in the 1983 code (canon 1374).



http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMASON1.htm

[andU]

It just gets more and more ridiculous. Now the Spanish media are claiming that other children were in the apartment along with the McCann children that night!



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=486646&in_page_id=1811&ct=5

(Daily Mail - hit or a miss).

Not sure whether Kate is supposed to have murdered Madeleine in front of these other kids or not....

It's a farce - nothing less.

... and if that isn't enough, the media is dispelling that the 'stories' of other guests don't jive with other guests... the friend who had a sick child that evening, etc. It makes me nervous and anxious that they are looking in all the wrong places.

[dallasvic]

... and if that isn't enough, the media is dispelling that the 'stories' of other guests don't jive with other guests... the friend who had a sick child that evening, etc. It makes me nervous and anxious that they are looking in all the wrong places.

I am so :confused: One minute they said the DNA is inconclusive and now its talking about the DNA in the car was not transfered,but some thing else.:shrug:

[Jayelles]

... and if that isn't enough, the media is dispelling that the 'stories' of other guests don't jive with other guests... the friend who had a sick child that evening, etc. It makes me nervous and anxious that they are looking in all the wrong places.

I think they SHOULD look at the McCanns and their friends - they should have been investigated right at the very start and concurrently with the initial hunt for Madeleine. Now all I see is one cock and bull story after another as they try to come up with something which could "fit".

Elsewhere, it is being suggested that "of course" the children could all have been put in the McCann apartment - they would have been taken there whilst the parents "hid" the body elsewhere. OK - it's a theory but it doesn't explain the fact that the group had NO idea how the investigation would be carried out. The police might have decided to search all the friends' apartments first and then how would the "accessories" have explained Madeleine's body in their apartment?

The Portuguese case hinges on the forensic evidence they allegedly found in the car hired by the McCanns 25 days after Madeleine went missing. Whatever case they build against the McCanns must explain that satisfactorily.

Even if the friends DID hide Madeleine's body in their apartment - what did they do with it after that? I don't think the friends stayed on in Praia da Luz. They were due to go home a day or two later and the apartments would in all likelihood have been booked out to someone else.

The latest headline is that they now believe that the friends' children were in the McCann apartment at the time. The Times is reporting this as hainv been reported by a Spanish newspaper (as opposed to claiming it as a news item themselves) but the Times is posing some questions:-

1) The Spanish paper is claiming that the McCanns' adult friends only visited the McCann apartment that evening
2) The FSS apparently examined lots of forensic data from the McCann apartment
3) The friends were all known to have visited with each other in their apartments during that week

so...

3) How do the Portuguese police know when the forensic evidence that the friends' children had been in the McCann apartment was deposited there?

Unless there was a witness. Then the question would be - if this witness was able to verify that all these people came and went from the McCann apartment that night - why didn't he or she come forward before?

[andU]

Oh, I agree that the friends should have been checked out, at the onsought. Maybe they are backtracking? Maybe they are hopeful of picking up some scent that they had overlooked? If just one person saw one tiny thing that he/she had forgotten about, it could be the link to the real perp(s). Yes, overturn every stone and see what is there. Follow every lead to the path to Maddie.

[lodfafner]

I think I want to throw-up. :cuss: Right Dallasvic - why didn't the cadaver dogs hit on the fridge? OMG! Well at least the newspaper got it right this time -The Portuguese police have come up with their sickest slur yet! :flamemad:

'Maddie's body kept in fridge'

thesun.co.uk - By ONLINE REPORTERS - September 29, 2007

PORTUGUESE cops came up with their sickest slur yet against the McCanns yesterday — claiming little Maddie’s body may have been kept in a FRIDGE before being dumped.

They are working on the extraordinary theory that Kate killed her daughter accidentally and that dad Gerry helped her cover up.

And they make the bizarre claim that Maddie’s body was somehow stored in a fridge in one of the apartments at the holiday complex where she went missing in May.

Maybe the fridge issue is not so far fetched after all. I just found out about a case where a mother killed her daughter and kept it in a fridge . You can google for "Paula Sims".

In 1986 she claimed her daughter was abducted by a stranger. Paula and her husband was appearing on television pleading very convincingly for the safe return of their daughter. LE found the body of the little girl but was not able to tie the parents or anybody else to the murder.

In 1989 the same thing happened again. Paula's then 6 weeks old little girl was abducted by a stranger but this time LE was able to prove Paula was the murderer. The little girl was found in a trash can but was very fresh for having been dead for over 4 days. This was later determined was caused by the body being kept in a freezer. Paula later admitted she was the perpetrator.

Parents capable of doing things like this can do it again and can be very convincing in their innocence even if they are guilty. They can even behave as loving caring parents until they snap.

[dallasvic]

Maybe the fridge issue is not so far fetched after all. I just found out about a case where a mother killed her daughter and kept it in a fridge . You can google for "Paula Sims".

In 1986 she claimed her daughter was abducted by a stranger. Paula and her husband was appearing on television pleading very convincingly for the safe return of their daughter. LE found the body of the little girl but was not able to tie the parents or anybody else to the murder.

In 1989 the same thing happened again. Paula's then 6 weeks old little girl was abducted by a stranger but this time LE was able to prove Paula was the murderer. The little girl was found in a trash can but was very fresh for having been dead for over 4 days. This was later determined was caused by the body being kept in a freezer. Paula later admitted she was the perpetrator.

Parents capable of doing things like this can do it again and can be very convincing in their innocence even if they are guilty. They can even behave as loving caring parents until they snap.


It is all to far fetched for the parents being doctors and their friends also being doc,to have anything to do with Maddie's disappearance.

[Angie1960]

On the other nights during their vacation - were the kids normally left at the Creche (hotel child care)?

I think this came up before in the news reports but I can't remember. I think this is a very imortant factor in considering whether they may be guilty.

[Pelicanette]

As some others have said, the refrigerators in Portuguese hotels are not the big kind that we are used to in the US. In fact, even in England, the refrigerators are generally smaller than the massive ones we have here. A hotel mini-fridge with a tiny freezer would not hold the body of a four year old child. Nor would the refrigerator part keep it cool enough to preserve it for 25 days. So where would they find a freezer large enough to store her body, a freezer that was not used. I just do not see that happening.

[dallasvic]

On the other nights during their vacation - were the kids normally left at the Creche (hotel child care)?

I think this came up before in the news reports but I can't remember. I think this is a very imortant factor in considering whether they may be guilty.
Hi angie,
From what I have read they had never left them with any day care.


As some others have said, the refrigerators in Portuguese hotels are not the big kind that we are used to in the US. In fact, even in England, the refrigerators are generally smaller than the massive ones we have here. A hotel mini-fridge with a tiny freezer would not hold the body of a four year old child. Nor would the refrigerator part keep it cool enough to preserve it for 25 days. So where would they find a freezer large enough to store her body, a freezer that was not used. I just do not see that happening.

Hi Pel,
I totally agree. I can not see it either.I don't think they had anything to do with it at all.

[Pelicanette]

This is all very difficult for me to fathom. Just what proof can they have that all of the children were being tended to in the one apartment rented by the McCanns? And just what are they suggesting? It seems that they may be saying that Mr. O'Brien may have done something to Madeleine or that she may have died when he was there tending to his ill daughter. But if that is true, why would Kate and Gerry cover for him? Also, can they really expect the friends to all have the same story to tell? If I were at a table with friends, eating and drinking, and some were coming and going, and I myself were coming and going, I don't think I would have an accurate memory of who went when and how long they were gone. I doubt I would pay any attention to that. I notice this article had no mention of Madeleine falling on the stairs. Just what is going on down there in Portugal? I cannot see even the faintest hint of logic or reason to it. They seem to be tossing out things to see if they stick, and if they do not, they move on to something else, just as preposterous.

[dallasvic]

This is all very difficult for me to fathom. Just what proof can they have that all of the children were being tended to in the one apartment rented by the McCanns? And just what are they suggesting? It seems that they may be saying that Mr. O'Brien may have done something to Madeleine or that she may have died when he was there tending to his ill daughter. But if that is true, why would Kate and Gerry cover for him? Also, can they really expect the friends to all have the same story to tell? If I were at a table with friends, eating and drinking, and some were coming and going, and I myself were coming and going, I don't think I would have an accurate memory of who went when and how long they were gone. I doubt I would pay any attention to that. I notice this article had no mention of Madeleine falling on the stairs. Just what is going on down there in Portugal? I cannot see even the faintest hint of logic or reason to it. They seem to be tossing out things to see if they stick, and if they do not, they move on to something else, just as preposterous.

I agree there is so many things that keep getting tossed in and out. I believe they hit a dead end and were not able to move on so they focused on the parents.
That one guy Murat what ever his name is , lied and told police he was not there and many people seen him there when they were looking for Maddie.He says he was at his mothers asleep. A BIG LIE:no:

[Jayelles]

Forthcoming tv programme:-

Searching For Madeleine: A Dispatches Special
(Documentary)
Time: 21:00 to 22:00 (1 hour long).
When: Thursday 18th October on Channel 4 (4)



On May 3 this year, Madeleine McCann went missing. That is one of the very few facts in what has become the news story of 2007. Her parents Kate and Gerry have gone from victims of a terrible tragedy to suspects in the disappearance of their own child.
(Watch Online, Subtitles)
Keywords: Documentary, Subtitles

Channel 4 has the best and worst of tv!

[Pelicanette]

Kudos to the poster who posted the pix of the McCanns at play with the bald fellow in the background. He definitely needs to be looked at as a possible abductor. I agree that the police should have investigated the parents early instead of waiting until this late date, but it should have been assumed that Madeleine was taken by someone, due to the fact that the parents were occupied most of that evening and would have been unable to dispose of a body or store a body without being seen.

Crazy rumors swirl around every high profile case, and sadly, some people spread them as entertainment for themselves and as an outlet for their own meanness and cruelty. But most of them fall by the wayside pretty quickly. They do not constitute proof or anything close to it.

I am disgusted with the Portuguese "authorities." They do not seem capable of investigating their way out of a paper bag, much less handling a case of this magnitude.

This is a simple abduction. They need to be searching for MADELEINE, alive or dead.

[Eagle1]

Oh and we have also had the Masonic theory - that Gerry McCann is a freemason and that his crimes are being covered by the highest in the land.

Never mind the fact that Gerry McCann is a Catholic and that freemasonry and catholicism are incompatible!



http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMASON1.htm


I haven't seen anything about this until now but fwiw, We had a neighbor who was also a Catholic, and when The Vatican Connection book was new, I believe I read in there that Masonry used to be forbidden but that there are now so many, that was given up.

Regarding Jayelles' earlier post, about the leak in the boot of the car, so you believe the material was from Madeleine and that she's dead?

I thought at one point they said it isn't proven to be her body fluids. Maybe I'm wrong. Can't imagine why someone would plant such evidence, unless maybe trying to persuade everyone to stop looking for her.

[Angie1960]

[QUOTE=dallasvic;9015662]Hi angie,
From what I have read they had never left them with any day care.
QUOTE]


I know they often left her there during the day - but I can't remember if they ever left her at night ????

[dallasvic]

Hi Everyone,

I am so glade that the new lead detective is focusing on the abduction. There is evidence pointing to an abduction.They are asking for British tourist's for DNA.
There was a search of the vacation flat and they found evidence of several different DNA and finger prints that did not match anyone of the McCann's or friends of there.They are unknown.
They saids others had access to Maddie. A 5 hour search of the flat in resort points to an abductor.
They are also raiding Pedophiles.They are calling it Operation,codenamed Predators, which will analyze 150 computers seized from 80 suspects.
I am so GLAD they are focusing on finding Maddie now. There are facts that are posted by Odette on the the Update only thread.

:rose: For~Maddie~&~Family:rose:

[Eagle1]

Oh and we have also had the Masonic theory - that Gerry McCann is a freemason and that his crimes are being covered by the highest in the land.

Never mind the fact that Gerry McCann is a Catholic and that freemasonry and catholicism are incompatible!



http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CAMASON1.htm

At first when I read your post I thought you were saying someone here posted a masonic theory, hadn't noticed the link. BTW, at another forum someone expresses a passing thought that maybe Maddie's eye defect made her special to someone. But why would masons want a child with a unique eye defect?

I'm just passing it on as a thought, no proof. I like to hear everything that anyone's read or heard, source or not, and they're apologizing by saying up front they just heard or read such and such. I don't think anything's been actually proven yet, so don't we need to hear it all, imo, as we go along. This may take a while, or never be solved.

That's the Catholics' viewpoint at that link, and some or all of masonry may be trying to destroy the other denominations too, in order to rule the world with their New World Order, for all we know.

On one of the CNN channels last night, someone whose name I'll have to supply later showed Bush and the Mexican president talking about their big plans to destroy our sovreignty. I had the guy's name on the tip of my tongue until I started posting, sorry. Maybe someone else also saw it.

And the very famous Lucifer chapter of the Bible, Isaiah 14, says he's finally destroyed for destroying his own nation. I don't claim to know for certain that's about this. Just background info fwiw.

[Eagle1]

Hi Everyone,

I am so glad that the new lead detective is focusing on the abduction. There is evidence pointing to an abduction.They are asking for British tourist's for DNA.

There was a search of the vacation flat and they found evidence of several different DNA and finger prints that did not match anyone of the McCann's or friends of there.They are unknown.

They said others had access to Maddie. A 5 hour search of the flat in resort points to an abductor.

They are also raiding Pedophiles.They are calling it Operation,codenamed Predators, which will analyze 150 computers seized from 80 suspects.
I am so GLAD they are focusing on finding Maddie now. There are facts that are posted by Odette on the the Update only thread.

:rose: For~Maddie~&~Family:rose:


Good post. Yes, this is encouraging.

[One2Snoop]

I certainly hope this guy isn't involved in the "new" investigation. DNA found on the beach months after she went missing? :confused: Sounds pretty flakey to me.

Traces of Madeleine McCann's body were found on a Portuguese beach weeks after she was reported missing, during tests by a former detective renowned for locating abducted children.

Forensic analysis by retired South African police superintendent Danie Krugel claimed to reveal Madeleine's body had either been temporarily buried or was still beneath the beach at Praia da Luz, the resort from where she disappeared on 3 May.

Based on a combination of Madeleine's DNA sample and GPS satellite technology, Krugel's findings were taken so seriously by Portuguese detectives that officers twice searched the beach.

[Pelicanette]

Catholics still do not approve of Freemasonry. But as far as I know, freemasons are not in the business of abducting children.

On another forum, I put a rather lengthy profile of the person I thought took Maddy. Naturally it got plenty of hoots since that forum was committed to McCann hatred. But I still think that the abductor is probably a male, most likely employed by the resort or with easy assess to it as with a deliveryman or laundry service worker, pleasant looking and non-threatening, charming personality and quick thought processes, who observed the McCann family for a few days or hours and took advantage of an opportunity to take Madeleine, a child that he had noticed and liked. I think he had a car of some kind, perhaps a van, parked close to the flat and got away with her in a matter of seconds.

[sharlock]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharlock http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=9014626#post9014626)
http://briansdreams.com/dd/5441pa66.jpg
I honestly don't know why these pictures are no longer causing concern. I think it is uncanny that the guy in the park is seen with following the portugese police and then in another talking to Robert Murat. This really freaks me out. It seems he is still a mystery man. Surely someone knows who he is?
Murat didn't travelled alone in his return to Portugal (http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/08/murat-didnt-travelled-alone-in-his.html)

Jayelles-Do we know it's definitely the same guy? Bald/shaved heads are very "in vogue" these days. I'm afraid one shaved head looks pretty much the same as another to me!

I can honestly say that I didn't just look at the head but the bodysize, colouring, shape of the head and identical sunnies, arm shapes and I feel pretty damn certain that these photos are all of the same guy! I could be wrong but I think more likely I am correct and that it would be very worthy of investigation. Am I the only person concerned by this coincidence?

[One2Snoop]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharlock http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=9014626#post9014626)
http://briansdreams.com/dd/5441pa66.jpg
I honestly don't know why these pictures are no longer causing concern. I think it is uncanny that the guy in the park is seen with following the portugese police and then in another talking to Robert Murat. This really freaks me out. It seems he is still a mystery man. Surely someone knows who he is?
Murat didn't travelled alone in his return to Portugal (http://gazetadigitalmadeleinecase.blogspot.com/2007/08/murat-didnt-travelled-alone-in-his.html)



I can honestly say that I didn't just look at the head but the bodysize, colouring, shape of the head and identical sunnies, arm shapes and I feel pretty damn certain that these photos are all of the same guy! I could be wrong but I think more likely I am correct and that it would be very worthy of investigation. Am I the only person concerned by this coincidence?

:eek: Wow Sharlock - good sleuthing there. I see the resemblence. Is there an email address to send tips to the family or their investigator and/or PR person? I definitely think this needs to be looked into but I wouldn't trust the Portugese police to do it. JMO

[Eagle1]

Catholics still do not approve of Freemasonry. But as far as I know, freemasons are not in the business of abducting children.

............. But I still think that the abductor is probably a male, most likely employed by the resort or with easy assess to it as with a deliveryman or laundry service worker, pleasant looking and non-threatening, charming personality and quick thought processes, who observed the McCann family for a few days or hours and took advantage of an opportunity to take Madeleine, a child that he had noticed and liked.

I think he had a car of some kind, perhaps a van, parked close to the flat and got away with her in a matter of seconds.

I agree, someone much like John Mark Karr, who looked for jobs with groups of children. I keep asking for opinions about the resort day care videographer who asked Maddie some question very perplexing to her. Until she looked up to see the asker seemed to have moved on, so she did too, probably decided he didn't mean it.

What could the question have been, that she would take so seriously? Anyone have a link to the video with SOUND? Or you remember what he asked? TIA Probably he was looked into, but you never know. Of course I agree about the park picture too. Kate must have had some intuitive impression that made her take the picture, maybe something they did that she's now forgotten but which caught her attention. Their just standing there looks suspicious enough. Sounds to me like several people were involved. BTW, it's been said that a white van belonging to a killer-suicide man had been parked in front of the McCann lodging for 10 days! I don't know whether or not it's true or the source, I'm sure has been mentioned before.

Editing to acknowledge your first paragraph, and agree, Catholics hardly ever change anything they've decided, you're right. If we thought Gerry guilty, he could be protected by the other doctors just because he's one of them. I keep wondering whose idea it was to leave all the children sleeping (in one room?) and take turns checking on them. Why hasn't that info been leaked?

[beaky]

Catholics still do not approve of Freemasonry. But as far as I know, freemasons are not in the business of abducting children.

On another forum, I put a rather lengthy profile of the person I thought took Maddy. Naturally it got plenty of hoots since that forum was committed to McCann hatred. But I still think that the abductor is probably a male, most likely employed by the resort or with easy assess to it as with a deliveryman or laundry service worker, pleasant looking and non-threatening, charming personality and quick thought processes, who observed the McCann family for a few days or hours and took advantage of an opportunity to take Madeleine, a child that he had noticed and liked. I think he had a car of some kind, perhaps a van, parked close to the flat and got away with her in a matter of seconds.

I agree with the above theory...

The abductor could be a staff member that lived nearby and returned at night.

IMO I wouldn't trust the complex management not to try and totally gloss over things to protect their image...I am sure they would go to any lengths....I once worked on a tourist site and the number of walk in oportunistic crimes was astounding....Often by the same people...If this was an oportunistic crime I wonder if the resort has a record of the local criminals found on the site....like a blacklist...

Also ....If there is a beach nearby an abductor could head there at night...no people and easy to dig ground...JMO...But I don't know if the resort is inland or not...

[Eagle1]

I agree with the above theory...

The abductor could be a staff member that lived nearby and returned at night.

IMO I wouldn't trust the complex management not to try and totally gloss over things to protect their image...I am sure they would go to any lengths....I once worked on a tourist site and the number of walk in oportunistic crimes was astounding....Often by the same people...If this was an oportunistic crime I wonder if the resort has a record of the local criminals found on the site....like a blacklist...

Also ....If there is a beach nearby an abductor could head there at night...no people and easy to dig ground...JMO...But I don't know if the resort is inland or not...

I agree with you, that could be exactly what happened, and I'm suspecting it just might be the videographer, who asked Maddie some question, so I'm re-reading this whole thread trying to find a link to the video with sound again. My computer was down all day yesterday, but I think I had read page 10.

So many suspects have been suggested, a number of them could have been for some reason involved, and she could have been buried at the beach, after some time in the car, but if the body fluids were hers, and she was in that state of decay, seems like there should have been a terrible odor. Maybe this has been said. I'm just replying to an email notification of a reply, haven't read yesterday and today yet.

I see, rechecking your post again, you're not new, but it's too late to change my title.

[One2Snoop]

Here we go again with the bodily fluids being found in the boot of the car and Maddie's decomping body being stored there. What about the smell folks? :confused:

From the latest update....

McCanns face new claims over Maddie body

metro.co.uk - Tuesday, October 16, 2007

The parents of missing Madeleine McCann are facing fresh claims that evidence from their daughter's decomposing body was found in their hired car.

Sources in the Portuguese police allege their forensic test results show 'bodily fluid' from a corpse was found in the boot of the Renault Scenic

[Eagle1]

Sounds like a 'plant' or (and this is a shot in the dark) that the perp put her in that car and then made certain that when the parents rented a car that it was the very one used by the perp that they received. (Well, I said it was a long shot).

I like your long shot, was thinking the very same thing. And that a perp used the car as a hiding place until he maybe had a chance to bury the body on that beach, because of the odor, which in the JonBenet case started in less than a day if she was ever actually in there. Probably there were several people who'd rented the car for two or three days at a time?

Was it coincidence the McCanns were handed that particular car? How many were there?

[andU]

I'm certainly glad that they are looking, but I keep praying that they would be led in another direction. I have a gut feeling about that car... if Maddie's body is found to have once been there, I don't believe that it was placed there by Kate nor Gerry. Someone may have set them up for a huge fall. I don't know why, the only thing that seems to have caught the Portugal police is the notion that the parents did it. What have they found at the resovoir or have they even searched there?
I'm angry, folks. If I were a family member they would have to put me in a strait jacket to keep me from tearing into someone, anyone at this point. Someone out there is lying.... someone knows where Maddie is and what state she is in (alive or deceased). Her parents want her returned to them in either state, as would I if I were her parents. My heart breaks for Kate and Gerry.

[andU]

I like your long shot, was thinking the very same thing. And that a perp used the car as a hiding place until he maybe had a chance to bury the body on that beach, because of the odor, which in the JonBenet case started in less than a day if she was ever actually in there. Probably there were several people who'd rented the car for two or three days at a time?

Was it coincidence the McCanns were handed that particular car? How many were there?

For this to have been actually what happened, someone affliated with the car rental had to be involved in Maddie's dissapearance. I wonder if they have done a back digging into anyone's lives besides the McCann's?

[Eagle1]

....Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."

". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.

Von Aesch is another suspect we need to not forget, like Murat and "Baldy" and the possible man carrying a child in a blanket. Any of them probably could have had access to the parked rental car. This is just to keep in mind along with everything else. IMHO there could have been quite a few more, but I can't imagine a motive.

[beaky]

Thank you for the welcome eagle1...

IMO...If madeleine has been abducted it would be someone on the outer edge of the whole picture and not someone that plays a highly visible or important everyday role at the resort..Someone able to observe and get around without standing out or being noticed by people as having a major working role....a manual worker possibly on a shift that allows them to observe the guests at their leisure....maybe a local delivery driver.

I thought the hire car was hired 5 weeks after madeleins disappearance...If there really is evidence in the car ...then what is the cars history...?

I would also guess at a lone abductor because the case has got very big and if a group were involved trust would be tested and I think one of them would have leaked some information by now...maybe to protect themself....JMO

It would be great to locate madeleine alive and maybe all these theories help to highlight how people look too much on the downside of a situation....we shouldn't give up hope...

[Eagle1]

What's this about a bloody footprint? Never heard of it before. Any truth in that? Also they talked about Kate saying if she had bigger boobs and looked more maternal, she wouldn't be getting persecuted. So, maybe she really is obsessed about her figure and really did write that diary entry, maybe got her brain undernourished?

I hurried in here this morning expecting to find some new posts, don't know where NG was getting that.

And I'm with One2Snoop who said if there were her bodily fluids in the car, what about the smell? That says it in a nutshell.

[Eagle1]

For this to have been actually what happened, someone affliated with the car rental had to be involved in Maddie's dissapearance. I wonder if they have done a back digging into anyone's lives besides the McCann's?

The following is just supposition, but possibly someone climbed a fence at night and hid the body in that car, and if there was an odor, and flies, whoever noticed, someone, possibly took the body to the beach where some expert claimed she'd been?

I sure hope this is all wrong, staged to stop the search for her, and she's still alive.

[beaky]

IMO...The message from any terrible cases like this is to be aware of our surroundings at all times...and never think it will never happen to me...

We all say criminal behavior is bad but don't we set ourselves up as victims sometimes with complacency ?? and being blinkered to potential risks...JMO

[beaky]

I've just been looking at the latest news updates...Can dna really say if the subject it came from is living or dead ???...


I thought dna from hair or blood or saliva was all the same...living or dead...what fluids only come from dead bodies...???

[Jayelles]

I've just been looking at the latest news updates...Can dna really say if the subject it came from is living or dead ???...


I thought dna from hair or blood or saliva was all the same...living or dead...what fluids only come from dead bodies...???


It does, but I think they can analyse the fluids and search for certain chemicals which occur after death - during putrefaction.

I am still convinced that this is a load of old tosh. The "source close to the Portuguese police" has been wrong too many times for me to take them too seriously.

[One2Snoop]

What's this about a bloody footprint? Never heard of it before. Any truth in that? Also they talked about Kate saying if she had bigger boobs and looked more maternal, she wouldn't be getting persecuted. So, maybe she really is obsessed about her figure and really did write that diary entry, maybe got her brain undernourished?

I hurried in here this morning expecting to find some new posts, don't know where NG was getting that.

And I'm with One2Snoop who said if there were her bodily fluids in the car, what about the smell? That says it in a nutshell

Precisely Eagle1 and as for the rest of that boob crap and the bloody footprint - all media hype IMO, you know, that unnamed source from the Portugese Law enforcement said it and it makes it true! :rolleyes:

[Eagle1]

Precisely Eagle1 and as for the rest of that boob crap and the bloody footprint - all media hype IMO, you know, that unnamed source from the Portugese Law enforcement said it and it makes it true! :rolleyes:

After posting above I happened to read somewhere else that Kate's mother had said poor little Kate "shouldn't have to think like that". Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me, Me.

Maddie is the innocent, truly and totally innocent, victim here! We haven't criticized and most of the public have only criticized each other, not the couple.

That expert was right these clients just aren't being managed well.

Is obesity the only thing Kate can think about at such a time as this? Was she really really fat, or did her pregnancy with the twins do something to her mind? It's awfully inappropriate right now. What's wrong with her? And this persecution act...."The best defense is a good offense"?

Maybe I'll be back to normal next post.

[Eagle1]

does anyone know if this link is truly out of Kate's diary?


http://www.pugbus.net/artman/publish/09137002_11_mccanndiary.shtml

There's the link if anyone wants to look. I don't claim to know.

I didn't jot down a link yesterday or the day before when reading what her mother said, sorry.

[raven]

I'm coming in at the tale end of this discussion as a new person to the forum, but just wanted to add my opinion. The parents of poor Madeline are totally to blame - they are guilty of total neglect at the very least. The really annoying thing is that if the parents had been on welfare or in poor jobs they would have been demonised from the start, but because they were in 'respected' professions and well to do they were shown in a much better light. They should be in prision for what they have caused and they certainly should not be allowed to continue to look after their other children.

[Nerida_F]

I think the focus is getting blurred here - there is only one important person at the moment - Madeleine and the action needed is to find her - find Madeleine!

The Portuguese police have lost their focus and as I have said before, I suspect some foulplay. If there are 250unchecked Madeleine sightings on the desk in Portugal, I hope that the British police now move in in force, since they are known as the best. Now with all the accusations, the parents seem to be losing a bit of focus, but I can totally understand that given all the pressure they are under. Gerry and Kate are my heroes, and I praise them for putting the importance of one life back on the agenda, after the horrors of 9/11 and successive suicide bombers have tried to cheapen it.

I would bet any money that the abductor is a local Moroccan man living within 10km of the crime scene. The sightings of Madeleine in Marrakech at the petrol station and some other sighting in Morocco sound genuine and I bet she is in that area somewhere. If so, the captors may not be that professional and may only consist of two people. Pretty much there is only one person who can rescue Madeleine now, and that is Madeleine herself, if she could somehow manage to escape. If I was Gerry, I would probably try to spend at least a month looking for Madeleine in Morocco - I know it would mean a lot to Madeleine wherever she was.

With the parents, some people may think the moral here is not to leave your children alone in their bedrooms, but I think the real moral is that parents today cannot do this, and that our liberties are being gradually eroded by fear. Doors and windows must be open for air, and Madeleine's story really is a horror story - something no child should ever have to go through, and I think we should all wish and hope for her safe and early return (any passing genies with unused wishes, take note!).

By the way, I went to an excellent clairvoyant last week for the first time ever, and some interesting things popped out, something about a person going overseas alone, 4years (old?) and then a big celebration. (Also, it would be nice if Madeleine's name could be spelled correctly as the heading for this section: MISSING & FOUND CHILDREN > Madeliene McCann )

[raven]

I totally agree that the most important person in all of this is Madeleine.

The issue regarding the parents is secondary, but still very important. This is not just the fact of someone leaving a window open or a door unlocked. They LEFT them alone in the apartment for hours to go and have a few drinks with friends - that's totally different. There was even a babysitting service available which they did not bother using.

[SFAgain]

In how many ways will the media be able to spinn this story, that air tonight:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=488211&in_page_id=1770

Witness statements are quite often contradictory, (especially retold by media who most often take stuff out of context,) which is understandable all things considering. But with the above article on the screen, even experts giving their expert views can (seem) to give contradictory statements, at least when retold by media. And this I think is a rather huge problem.

In the world of cut'n'paste frenzy, the article above can be summed up like this:


So if it wasn't a paedophile or child-trafficker, who could have taken her?

Prof David Canter applied his experience to come up with more refined possibilities about likely abductors.

'A mother who is very disturbed and trying to abduct a child to replace her own dead baby wouldn't have gone for Madeleine. She would have gone for one of the twins who, being that much younger, could have been absorbed into her family.'

Moreover, he feels that four years old is an odd age for any child victim to be abducted - too young to be of interest to most paedophiles, too old to be trafficked or stolen as a baby-substitute.

But then if Madeleine did not wander off, and was not abducted, that leaves only the third possible scenario: that her parents were involved in her disappearance.

[...]

'I still feel abduction is the most likely possibility,' concludes forensic psychologist David Canter.



The possibility that it might have been one of thier friends, or new holliday aquaintances, seem to have slipped peoples minds. To me it seems, in this case, that not just people, but police and media, today, regard that possibility somewhere down in the basement along with alien abduction theories.


:shrug:

[SFAgain]

The parents of poor Madeline are totally to blame - they are guilty of total neglect at the very least.

I don't agree. It's not hard to imagine that all the couples with children staying in a hotell that offer "listening service", in a low crime area would be under the impression of being safe enough to undertake that "service" themself. And, after all, don't all parents feel they are more capable of looking after their own children then a "hotell-stranger"? (They might actually have felt safer compromising that way.)


The really annoying thing is that if the parents had been on welfare or in poor jobs they would have been demonised from the start, but because they were in 'respected' professions and well to do they were shown in a much better light. They should be in prision for what they have caused and they certainly should not be allowed to continue to look after their other children.

If the McCanns hade been on welfare, or had "poor jobs", they would probably not have been on vacation in a high-end resort in Algarve.

Furthermore, with people lower down on the socioeconomic scale, you have a high probability for obvious stress-factors, and you would probably have a lot of people commenting on past behavior that acounts for the conclussion that the actual statistics reflect when one or both parents are the culprit.

:)

[Eagle1]

I totally agree that the most important person in all of this is Madeleine.

The issue regarding the parents is secondary, but still very important. This is not just the fact of someone leaving a window open or a door unlocked. They LEFT them alone in the apartment for hours to go and have a few drinks with friends - that's totally different. There was even a babysitting service available which they did not bother using.

Much worse than police being overwhelmed is Kate's continuing focus on, not Maddie, at all, but on her own body image!!!!!

Seems awfully abnormal to me, frankly, tho' I still think adult males were somehow involved. This seems so extremely abnormal the mother we've been such suckers about may indeed be involved too, let's face it. I can't imagine it either, but don't police know more than we about crime solving? And they do risk their lives every day trying to protect us.

I'm afraid it becoming glaringly obvious that Kate's focus is entirely on herself. And she'd apparently written in her diary that Madeleine was too hyperactive, should have issued a statement that Dr. So and So confirmed that diagnosis.

Some of us free-write when worried about something if there's absolutely nothing else we can do. With their resources, it doesn't seem like they should have been personally searching every nook and cranny of the world instead of waiting for people to hire private detectives for them and otherwise take care of them. Yes, if they were in a lower "class" I'm sure they would not be able to pull this off.

Nancy Grace reacted much like I do to this latest statement, from Kate's mother, and the extra-polite concensus among experts was the couple are not being managed well. I may have asked this before, does anyone know if Kate was ever obese, or did the pregancy with twins do something to her mind so that she can think of nothing else but her bod? Sorry, Jayelles, know your mind's made up, but I'm going to keep mine open.

[dallasvic]

Originally Posted by andU http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8981814#post8981814)
Sounds like a 'plant' or (and this is a shot in the dark) that the perp put her in that car and then made certain that when the parents rented a car that it was the very one used by the perp that they received. (Well, I said it was a long shot).


I like your long shot, was thinking the very same thing. And that a perp used the car as a hiding place until he maybe had a chance to bury the body on that beach, because of the odor, which in the JonBenet case started in less than a day if she was ever actually in there. Probably there were several people who'd rented the car for two or three days at a time?

Was it coincidence the McCanns were handed that particular car? How many were there?

I found this and i believe the smell would be horrific and they would not be able to rent the car do to the smell. Here is why I think this!

How fast does a human body begin to decompose, and what are the products?

>> Return to: Shroud of Turin Story (http://www.shroudstory.com/)
The University of Tennessee maintains an experimental area where observations are made on decomposing corpses. They find that flies lay their eggs in wounds on dead bodies, and maggots appear before 30 hours at about 23ºC. This approximates the time required for liquid decomposition products to begin to appear on the surface of a body. We could not find any evidence for the migration of liquid decomposition products through the cloth; therefore, the cloth could not have been in contact with the body for very long.
Decomposing bodies start producing ammonia (NH3) in the lungs quite soon after death, and the ammonia diffuses outward through the nose and mouth. Ammonia is lighter than air, and it diffuses rapidly. The rate of production of ammonia decreases with time after death.
Within a few hours, depending on weather conditions, a body starts to produce heavier amines in its tissues, e.g., putrescine (1,4-diaminobutane), and cadaverine (1,5-diaminopentane). These amines are much heavier than air, and they diffuse relatively slowly. Experiments prove that slow diffusion relates to increased resolution in image formation. The early appearance and rapid diffusion of low-molecular-weight ammonia from the nose and mouth might help explain the greater amount of image color between the nose and mouth, in the beard, and into the nearby hair. It will also diffuse through the cloth more quickly and reach the back side of the cloth in greater concentration. Ammonia will diffuse about 20 cm through air while cadaverine is diffusing only 6 cm.
>> Return to: Shroud of Turin Story (http://www.shroudstory.com/)

Webmaster's Note: The subject of decomposing bodies is a sensitive subject for many Christians when considering the Shroud of Turin. But the science of a decomposing human body is something that cannot be ignored. A body will begin to decompose shortly after death. We can think of two stages: In the first stage, human decomposition is limited to the production of vapors. In the second stage of human decomposition, fluidic materials form and the flesh begins to decompose. The forensic observations from the Shroud is that there was no apparent second-stage decomposition. Any fluidic products would have ravaged the cloth in short order. The results of a body decomposing would have been visible on the cloth.
link
:http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-11.htm

[andU]

Originally Posted by andU http://boards.crimelibrary.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showthread.php?p=8981814#post8981814)
Sounds like a 'plant' or (and this is a shot in the dark) that the perp put her in that car and then made certain that when the parents rented a car that it was the very one used by the perp that they received. (Well, I said it was a long shot).




I found this and i believe the smell would be horrific and they would not be able to rent the car do to the smell. Here is why I think this!

How fast does a human body begin to decompose, and what are the products?

>> Return to: Shroud of Turin Story (http://www.shroudstory.com/)
The University of Tennessee maintains an experimental area where observations are made on decomposing corpses. They find that flies lay their eggs in wounds on dead bodies, and maggots appear before 30 hours at about 23ºC. This approximates the time required for liquid decomposition products to begin to appear on the surface of a body. We could not find any evidence for the migration of liquid decomposition products through the cloth; therefore, the cloth could not have been in contact with the body for very long.
Decomposing bodies start producing ammonia (NH3) in the lungs quite soon after death, and the ammonia diffuses outward through the nose and mouth. Ammonia is lighter than air, and it diffuses rapidly. The rate of production of ammonia decreases with time after death.
Within a few hours, depending on weather conditions, a body starts to produce heavier amines in its tissues, e.g., putrescine (1,4-diaminobutane), and cadaverine (1,5-diaminopentane). These amines are much heavier than air, and they diffuse relatively slowly. Experiments prove that slow diffusion relates to increased resolution in image formation. The early appearance and rapid diffusion of low-molecular-weight ammonia from the nose and mouth might help explain the greater amount of image color between the nose and mouth, in the beard, and into the nearby hair. It will also diffuse through the cloth more quickly and reach the back side of the cloth in greater concentration. Ammonia will diffuse about 20 cm through air while cadaverine is diffusing only 6 cm.
>> Return to: Shroud of Turin Story (http://www.shroudstory.com/)

Webmaster's Note: The subject of decomposing bodies is a sensitive subject for many Christians when considering the Shroud of Turin. But the science of a decomposing human body is something that cannot be ignored. A body will begin to decompose shortly after death. We can think of two stages: In the first stage, human decomposition is limited to the production of vapors. In the second stage of human decomposition, fluidic materials form and the flesh begins to decompose. The forensic observations from the Shroud is that there was no apparent second-stage decomposition. Any fluidic products would have ravaged the cloth in short order. The results of a body decomposing would have been visible on the cloth.
link
:http://www.shroudstory.com/faq/turin-shroud-faq-11.htm


Very interesting, Dallasvic! thanks for posting!

[Seashell]

Much worse than police being overwhelmed is Kate's continuing focus on, not Maddie, at all, but on her own body image!!!!!

Seems awfully abnormal to me, frankly, tho' I still think adult males were somehow involved. This seems so extremely abnormal the mother we've been such suckers about may indeed be involved too, let's face it. I can't imagine it either, but don't police know more than we about crime solving? And they do risk their lives every day trying to protect us.

I'm afraid it becoming glaringly obvious that Kate's focus is entirely on herself. And she'd apparently written in her diary that Madeleine was too hyperactive, should have issued a statement that Dr. So and So confirmed that diagnosis.

The police are going to re enact the night with the real witnesses as well as record it to show the public to see if someone out there is going to be able to remember something else, if it also means quizzing the mother about that nights event, then why not? Hello! the victim here is MADDY, i dont give a damn if it upsets this mother she is accused or asked till kingdom come and anyone else who may have been involved..
there has to be a reason and good reasons as to why the police were suspicious of the mother from day 1, i am sitting tight to see what happens, i just hope that i am wrong in my suspicions.

Maddy we miss you :rose:
my 2 cents worth.

[dallasvic]

I do not believe the McCann's had anything at all to do with Maddie's death. I believe the only reason they are focusing on the McCans is they hit a brick wall and also so statistics say that most people are harmed or killed by a family member or close friend to the family.
Another thing that can contribute to this is a alarming member of mothers have killed their kids.
Remember Susan Smith killed her 2 little boys,Adrin drowned hers in the bathtub, and ever since that they focus on the parents and here they are extremely convinced it is the McCann's.
I still think that is was that guy Murat I think is his name. He said he was not there when Maddie went missing,her was home with his mother who was asleep and would have no clue if he was there when she was sleeping.That nanny said she seen him there and a few more people seem him there.
If he had not done anything why would he lie ?:shrug:

[WarmNCozy]

God help anyone if their child goes missing with the way the media is putting the parents on the cross along with the Portuguese Police! Then you have those "supposedly funny web sites" writing fictional diaries which are defaming and subject to liable if the parents have the energy to pursue after they find their baby daughter.

I don't believe for a minute these parents harmed their precious daughter.

[Callie]

I don't know what to think about this case. I do hope they solve it soon.

[JBRnotforgotten]

I dont care whom they are blaming but they need to KEEP FOCUS ON MADDY and MADDY ONLY..rich or poor it dont matter find her ..

[raven]

I don't agree. It's not hard to imagine that all the couples with children staying in a hotell that offer "listening service", in a low crime area would be under the impression of being safe enough to undertake that "service" themself. And, after all, don't all parents feel they are more capable of looking after their own children then a "hotell-stranger"? (They might actually have felt safer compromising that way.)

If the McCanns hade been on welfare, or had "poor jobs", they would probably not have been on vacation in a high-end resort in Algarve.

Furthermore, with people lower down on the socioeconomic scale, you have a high probability for obvious stress-factors, and you would probably have a lot of people commenting on past behavior that acounts for the conclussion that the actual statistics reflect when one or both parents are the culprit.

:)

The hotel offered a babysitting service, but instead of using it, the McCanns chose to just pop in to check on the children every hour or so from the restaurant 100 yards away. You're saying that a parent is right to do THAT - leaving the children home alone - instead of paying a few pounds for a babysitter? That's ridiculous. They showed a huge error in judgement and total selfishness. My wife and I have been on holiday several times with friends who have young children and they NEVER left their children in a hotel or apartment alone - it's just not done.

That resort in the Algarve is not particularly high end - people on modest incomes do go there too.

What do you mean by "people lower down on the socioeconomic scale, you have a high probability for obvious stress-factors, and you would probably have a lot of people commenting on past behavior that acounts for the conclussion that the actual statistics reflect when one or both parents are the culprit."? Are you saying that poor people ARE more likely to commit crimes just because they are poor????

[beaky]

I have worked on a tourist site and it really does not surprise me that the parents left their kids in the room...I have seen lots of examples like this...we used to say that when people go on holiday they leave their brains at home..

I asked one mother why she left two young children on the poolside and she said .."its ok there are lifeguards"....People think that the sea is like a swimming pool...no currents...smooth bottom...tides ? whats that.

When people go on holiday they need to raise all their levels of awareness because they are going to an unknown environment...In reality they do the opposite and become incredibly complacent....they kind of believe the glossy brochures and think everything is ok and no crime happens in holiday land.

They can relax and let down their guard and trust all the friendly people..

Having seen the ch 4 doc last night I would want to know if that particular apartment had been targeted before...It is right by the road and has its own gate all obscured from general view...The resort managers are saying loads by saying nothing....But all this is JMHO..

[SFAgain]

The hotel offered a babysitting service, but instead of using it, the McCanns chose to just pop in to check on the children every hour or so from the restaurant 100 yards away. You're saying that a parent is right to do THAT - leaving the children home alone - instead of paying a few pounds for a babysitter?

From what I have read about on the (Mark Warner) hotell, they offer two services at night, one being leaving your children at the creche from where you later pick them up on your way back, the other is the listening service (which means hotell personel is going by the room "listening" every 15-30 minutes.

Now, why didn't the parents leave the kids at the creche?

They were only going to dine within the hotell complex that night. And, as they have stated, their children have toubles going to sleep amongst "strangers". I think that is very reasonable, what with the reality when it comes to putting a child to sleep, when there are other fun kids around.


Why didn't they use the listening service?

I think we have to remember that most people on vacation doesn't expect lurking predators or major accident happening at every twist and turn. Not to forget a good healthy relaxed mood when being amongst a group of friends on vacation. It's not hard to imagine that they felt safe enough with undertaking this service amongst themself sharing the responsibility instead of trusting an "outsider", they had after all done so at least once already, prior to May 3, and everything went well at that time. (Having done it before with no problems arising, would have set the stage for May 3, reasuring them of feeling safe to do so again.)


This is, my personal view, on why they opted not to use the services provided by the hotell. Right or wrong? I can't say, what I think is right and wrong in moral issues is null and void for others.


That resort in the Algarve is not particularly high end - people on modest incomes do go there too.

Noted on Mark Warner: 7 days in March, for 2 adults and 2 kids cost about 1500 quid. I don't think people on welfare would afford that, perhaps low income people would though.


What do you mean by "people lower down on the socioeconomic scale, you have a high probability for obvious stress-factors, and you would probably have a lot of people commenting on past behavior that acounts for the conclussion that the actual statistics reflect when one or both parents are the culprit."? Are you saying that poor people ARE more likely to commit crimes just because they are poor????


No, and certainly not that abstract. (It tend to depend on the crime.)

In this case, in context with what you wrote, that if it had been a couple lower down on the socioeconomic scale, you would most probably have seen a lot of stress factors in their background history, days and or weeks back, something other people would have noticed in hindsight, that could account for the possibility of one, or both, being guilty of the disappearance of the child. And as far as I can tell the McCann family seem to have had a healthy relationship, no obvious factors that could account for them to disappear their own child, for what ever reason, and I guess this is why this case is so much of a mystery, at least to me.

[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=SFAgain;9027249]..........
Now, why didn't the parents leave the kids at the creche?...........

Why didn't they use the listening service?...............[QUOTE]

Yes, and why didn't they use cell phones/pagers, so if the person checking on the kids needed help, they wouldn't have to leave the situation and run back to the bar? Possibly Maddie was old enough she could have been taught to use one if she woke up, instead of maybe going outside to look for them.... Just push a button.

Why did BOTH Kate and her mother think the public could be manipulated to think we or her boobs were to blame for the mess? An long-standing attitude problem maybe?

Hysteria, they say, makes you want to slap a person, but why were no other mothers of missing children exhibit that, and, as someone at another forum asked, could they have been setting up a MENTAL ILLNESS DEFENSE in case there would ever be an arrest or other problems for them?

Why didn't they even take Kate's mother on holiday with them if she's maybe a widow? Maybe she needed a vacation too and would have opted to stay with the children that night instead of carousing with all the parents. I seem to remember also that our college buddies stopped partying on weekends and settled down when we started having kids. All of ours a hand full. Everyone must suddenly feel they don't have enough hands crossing a street when they have three small ones. Our husbands were away a lot too, and think how it must be w/ MILITARY wives!

http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7203&p... halfway down the page, and there are also other similar links, Kate was called "Hotlips Heally" in college, loved drinking and dancing, PASSED exams with ease. Just passing, not excelling, isn't the goal, imo. The couple just haven't grown up? She LOOKS lean and strong and stable in their family picture of the five of them, but of course looks have nothing to do with things. She is stupidly insulting us by insinuating we're that shallow and that we're doing anything to her. Some of us so identify with Maddie we're losing sleep over it sometimes.

[cat840]

I've just been looking at the latest news updates...Can dna really say if the subject it came from is living or dead ???...


I thought dna from hair or blood or saliva was all the same...living or dead...what fluids only come from dead bodies...???

If you find brain matter chances are pretty good the victim is dead IMO.
Large quantities of blood also indicates the victim is dead. IIRC there are cases where the suspect has been convicted of murder without a dead body just because there was so much blood at the crimescene they could conclude noone could have survived it.

[Jayelles]

It's still only the Portuguese tabloids who are claiming that there are "bodily fluids" in the hire car.

I *really* do think that if this is true and that they have tested positive for Madeleine's DNA, we would have heard about it from an official source.

Don't forget the same Portuguese tabloid has made a long list of ludicrous claims which turned out to be false. What I call the "chestnut du jour" (tall tale of the day). I am utterly amazed that despite the Portuguese tabloid's proven record of false information, people are STILL jumping on the stories as though they are factual.

I have actually reached the stage where I feel as though there is little point in discussing the case because the leaked theories and evidence change by the hour!

I really do wish the McCanns would shut up and tell their friends and family to shut up too. There is NOTHING they can say which will stop the torrent of hate against them by people who (let's face it) really don't matter. Half of them sound pretty illiterate to me and I find myself reading some of the posts and being utterly stumped for words at the nonsense content. I don't think they even read the articles. I think they just read the headlines and look at the pictures.

I'm not even talking here about theories which are being concocted to fit the few facts we know. These are completely fabricated stories which don't match even those few facts we do know. Quite frankly, I think the people who are posting all the anti-McCann vile stuff probably don't really care much about the case - they certainly don't seem to care much about verifying facts or requesting sources.

I sympathise with the McCanns in terms of them reading the nonsense and wanting to set the record straight, but everytime they do it only makes things worse and gives their attackers new reasons to hate them. The truth will come out eventually, and I think that in the meantime, they'd be best advised to be like the Royal family and remain silent. That way they don't lower themselves to their attackers' level and if and when the truth DOES come out in their favour, the empty vessels which made all the noise will be left looking very silly whilst they have kept their dignity.

I miseed this phase of the Ramsey case, but if it was in any way similar.... I've had my eyes opened.

[cat840]

I miseed this phase of the Ramsey case, but if it was in any way similar.... I've had my eyes opened.

Why is your thoughts about a case in any way connected to what the media writes or what public opinon say?

Do you suggest that the Ramsey guilt has anything to do with the way they were treated by media during the months after the crime?

What have your eyes been opened to see?

I find your statement interesting because I feel some jump to defend the underdog(the mistreated one) just because they feel someone have to step up and do it. In the Maddie case we just don't know much facts at this point so why take a firm standpoint already?

[SFAgain]

I have actually reached the stage where I feel as though there is little point in discussing the case because the leaked theories and evidence change by the hour!

I agree, but still I don't. After all, how Gerry and Kate behaves is very important still. At least in my mind, there is still a chance (possibility) that the parents are a couple of psykopathic absolut evil scheming manipulating couple of low lifes SOB's. In my calculations this is of course a far cry from even reaching a 1% ... but still, you never know ... for sure.


I really do wish the McCanns would shut up and tell their friends and family to shut up too. There is NOTHING they can say which will stop the torrent of hate against them by people who (let's face it) really don't matter.



As long as the girl is missing, I hope they never shut up. My stand on this is you shouldn't. Hump and Trump and what ever is need be to get the message out there, for as long as possible, when someone is missing, that is the only way to jog peoples memory, to remember, and/or to make people take notice and maybe remember things.

That the McCanns come up with all sorts of different scenarios, and beeing verbal about it, isn't that odd actually, they like every one else will speculate as to what might have happened ...

[Jayelles]

Why is your thoughts about a case in any way connected to what the media writes or what public opinon say?

Mine aren't. I was talking purely about those people whose opinion is influenced entirely by the media. Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough.

Do you suggest that the Ramsey guilt has anything to do with the way they were treated by media during the months after the crime?

Eh? How can their guilt be based upon their treatment by the media AFTE the crime took place? This question doesn't make sense to me.

What have your eyes been opened to see?

Some of the rumours which circulated about the case, false stories etc and how they perpetuated.

I find your statement interesting because I feel some jump to defend the underdog(the mistreated one) just because they feel someone have to step up and do it. In the Maddie case we just don't know much facts at this point so why take a firm standpoint already?

I'm a natural fencesitter - a non-risk-taker in the extreme. I instinctively reserve judgement until I have lots of facts about something. It's not in my nature to defend the underdog just because he/she is the underdog but I'd defend someone to the hilt if the facts convinced me of their innocence.

I have only ever followed three cases - McCann, vanDam and Ramsey. The facts in the vanDam case convinced me of David Westerfield's guilt and I was correct. I just haven't got a clue about the Ramsey case. The weight of the evidence points to their innocence but isn't conclusive enough for me to give them an absolute "pass" and declare myself a defender of their innocence. In the McCann case I have seen nothing from any credible source to indicate that they are involved in Madeleine's disappearance and I am comfortable to defend them to the extent that I do. I believe that when the true facts emerge we will see all the speculation and tabloid innuendo for what it is.

The "facts" that most people are discussion and which are influencing the majority of opinions come from an unnamed "source close to the Portuguese police". I wasn't surprised to hear the following from an actual NAMED source - Sousa - when he resigned saying that many false statements had been made about the evidence and the couple in an effort to try and pressure them into a confession (this is a three page article so make sure to click the links for pages 2 and 3):-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/23/nmaddy123.xml

To a tight trio of trusted colleagues he had confided that he was ''unhappy" about the inquiry and ''exasperated" with the constant leaks from junior officers who, in exchange for extravagant meals, were willing to either reveal snippets of confidential information, or to embroider vague facts if they felt that was what their moles in the Portuguese media wanted.

SNIP

He has acknowledged that the leaks were intended to push Kate and Gerry McCann into confessing they had killed their daughter.

More crucially, he believes that the concerted fightback by the McCanns will reveal that, for all the police posturing when they named the couple as suspects, their evidence was at best flimsy, at worst supposition. ''He has told me he always worried that the evidence against the McCanns was weak," says one former policeman. ''He was worried it would not bear scrutiny."



There is also a statement from the former Metropolitan Chief of POlice in the UK in today's papers which says:-

Kate and Gerry McCann are the victims of a "witch hunt", Britain's former top police officer has said.

Former Metropolitan Police chief Lord Stevens also said there was no evidence to suggest the couple murdered their daughter Madeleine.

Writing in the News Of The World, Lord Stevens lambasted the "sheer inadequacy" of the Portuguese police investigation, which he said had failed to produce any hard evidence.

He added there was "absolutely no chance" Mr and Mrs McCann would face charges for their daughter's murder in Britain.

"It would be an outrageous miscarriage of justice if they were charged with her murder in this country," Lord Stevens said.


"I've been a detective at the most senior level for 30 years and have never seen such a witch hunt, or one based on such flimsy evidence."

Lord Stevens, who retired as Metropolitan Police commissioner in 2005, said Portuguese police should have immediately treated the McCanns as the prime suspects.

"That police error has become their tragedy now," he added. "If they had been properly investigated back then they may well have been cleared."


http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1289261,00.html

I discuss the McCann case with friends and colleagues (unlike the Ramsey case which few people are familiar with here) and I don't know a single person who thinks they killed her. Everyone feels the same was as I do - that they have become scapegoats for a botched investigation. Let me emphasise that this is a completely separate issue from the fact that they left their sleeping children alone in the apartment. People have mixed views about that here but it IS a separate issue and one which we need to progress beyond. Some people appear to be incapable of doing this - a fact which would IMO make them singularly unsuitable for the job of being a real detective!. They are like stuck records! I mean supposing two small children were playing in their back garden and it was safe and completely fenced in. Then someone came along, opened the gate, delivered a message and left again without shutting the gate. Some time later it is discovered that the children are missing. Would "these people" just stand there wringing their hands and gnashing their teeth and deriding the person who left the gate open? Or would they get on with the job of looking for the children? I seriously wonder!

Also, people have mixed views about the McCanns - some have no personal opinion about them, others dislike him/her/them and others feel incredibly sorry for him/her/them - but no-one I have spoken to thinks they killed Madeleine.

[Eagle1]

When we discuss cases with our friends, naturally they'd want to seem to agree, because usually it'd just be casual conversation to them. I don't think I personally know anyone who's very interested. Nothing personal, just defending innocent bystanders instead of the suspects who I think probably should be in Morocco or otherwise busily concerned about Madeleine. I can understand fear of being charged, but if they were showing a lot more concern for Madeleine, it would sure help with that! Adequate concern for Maddie is way too conspicuous by its absence even if they are in a bad spot, like so many other parents of missing children, John Walsh, etc. He didn't just keep on and on about himself, or accusing the public of hating him for no reason. That'd be vicious and sick and would make him look guilty, even if his friends or his mother did it for him. They're bringing it upon themselves. Our obligation is justice to little Maddie. Don't forget her.

I call myself an FS too, meaning "bring it on" if you have something critical to say about the more-careless-than-the-Ramseys-or-VanDams parents. Being an FS means I want to hear all of both sides, and have no fear of either one.

People who call us haters I'm afraid are themselves haters, frankly, not addressing anyone in particular but "all" who attack so viciously using the excuse they're being fair. No they're not. We all have a right to free speech and thought.

Those who identify too strongly with either side really aren't FS's, after all. We're not blind. Not quite.

I just read yesterday at some other forum that only 20% believe the parents are totally innocent. There's way too much conflict in what they and their friends say and do, and the very suspicious circumstances. I've at times sort of apologized to you, Jayelles, having the definite impression you're passionately against others saying what they certainly have a right and maybe a duty to say. Nobody at these forums would be illiterate or inferior in any way, might mis-spell something in their haste because they have a right to be passionate too. I was sort of hoping to clear this up. There was a girl at either SignonSanDiego or CapitolGrilling when it still had missing people discussions who had a lot of very unusually intelligent reasons to suspect Westerfield's circumstances made him easy to frame, which reasons were just too complicated for most to understand or dig into. There are lots of miscarriages of justice, and he was noticeably inept at taking care of himself, all through the whole thing. But maybe there was something else he deserves punishment for, I rationalized.

Here's an interesting article this morning I found at CrimeShots, scrolled down to "...British sniffer dogs" picked up the smell of death all the way to the church, which has a piece of land BETWEEN it and a beach. It doesn't say if this beach is the same one where some international search expert said Maddie's body had been at some point in the sand. That's what I really want to know. The hire car could have been used and who used it just not recorded. http://Crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3607#post3...

I'm honestly keeping an open mind, plenty of ventilation with all the holes in my head, not just claiming that I do and that nobody else does. We have to stay objective, not emotionally involved with either side.

Have to agree with the two or three posts above where they're also noticing Why be so firm already? Sorry but that's really how it's coming across. I, and probably everyone else, still acknowledge the suspicious looking adult men were probably involved and the question might be did they control the parents with threats, doesn't look like it, or were they maybe hired, or what. I'm stuck with the "what?" Police seem to have done a lot, even tho some had to be replaced. This article at Crimeshots seems to be getting pretty close, imo. It's all I've read so far this morning.

What about the woman at the gas station in Morocco who said the little girl asked "When can I see Mommy?" folks? Would that woman have just made that up, or was this another missing child who's not so well publisized, or could it have been Maddie in spite of the sniffer dogs' scent of death trail? (Question, because a cremation place for pets was rather suddenly shut down after neighbor complaints, 20 mi away, does a human body emit more odor than an animal's? And an animal couldn't have been used to "plant" this trail-of-death to confuse the case? )

It would have been pretty easy for someone to use the hire care and not have it recorded in the log book, I would think. But there was no scent of death in the car mentioned. It does sound odd that they would use the car, whenever, without a spare tire, and use the tire well for dirty nappies and stuff. That's not too believable.

[Seashell]

Jayelles
this all happened in PORTUGAL and it should be the portuguese police who investigate as well as in all probability have the legal rights to carry on the investigation as seen fit by their means wether you or anyone else in BRITAIN like it or not, btw scotland yard have also been known to make mistakes in the past as well as the BOTCHED up killing of Menenez, offtopic i know but wanted to make a mention.

As for reading the newspaper from UK i got fed up of the stuff showing upfront and simply decided to sit and wait for the news to come through from the portuguese authorities, yes mistakes were made but they have admitted their faults and now have a special team working on maddies dissapearance, i will not poo poo this work force as i have read on here as i want this child found.
Why condone a foreign police force? what makes you think that yor countrys police are right in their opinions specially a retired police authority who is not seemingly inolved, in my opinion, let the portuguese police get on with their work and find the child as this is what it is all about.
I know of similar cases of children who have also dissapeared but never have i seen such a noisy messy media as this one, for our sake and everyones sake, i want maddie found as well as stop all this confusing messages that is being told to us on a daily basis.
my 2 cents worth.

[Pelicanette]

I see we are back to the old They left them alone so they must be killers theory.

Well, that is not necessarily true, and it certainly is not proof of murder.

Everyone, even the McCanns themselves, say that was a huge mistake.

But it is not proof of murder.

[sharlock]

I see we are back to the old They left them alone so they must be killers theory.

Well, that is not necessarily true, and it certainly is not proof of murder.

Everyone, even the McCanns themselves, say that was a huge mistake.

But it is not proof of murder.

I agree Pelicanette! I will not rule out any suspects at this point but certainly I worry about the way the police have investigated this case and I am concerned that with all the leaks of info there has been no info given on the mysterious man who has turned up in so many photos. The fact that he is then seen in photos accompanying the police makes me question some of the polices integrity. I beleive the new man in charge of the investigation will certainly help get this case back on track if he is able to tidy up the mess that has been left to him.
Newspapers have a way of printing those things that will sell newspapers and do not always quote people correctly. I do not beleive that the McCanns are heartless and do not care about their daughter simply because of articles I have read and I don't see how others can do that either.

[Nerida_F]

Has anyone noticed anything strange about the date of Madeleine's abduction? It was on 3 May, 2007 which can be written as 3/5/7. And if that is not strange enough, adding the time makes it 3/5/7 9:11PM. This might seem a bit freakish, but if you have a look at which other groups use numbers for dates, terrorists come to mind first with 9/11 in US where the emergency number is the same, Bali happened 1 year 1 day later and the London was 7/7.

Anyway, to be blunt, I had a dream in Sept where I saw Madeleine with something very different done to her face, and I believe she was and still is in NW Liberia. If you consider that the only real sighting (my guess) of her was at Marrakech in Morroco at a petrol station, this may have been half way through the journey. Anyway it was just a dream, and I am not sure if there is any truth in this or not. I would have posted this earlier but thought she would have been found by now, and didn't want to confuse the case.

[Eagle1]

Has anyone noticed anything strange about the date of Madeleine's abduction? It was on 3 May, 2007 which can be written as 3/5/7. And if that is not strange enough, adding the time makes it 3/5/7 9:11PM. This might seem a bit freakish, but if you have a look at which other groups use numbers for dates, terrorists come to mind first with 9/11 in US where the emergency number is the same, Bali happened 1 year 1 day later and the London was 7/7.

Anyway, to be blunt, I had a dream in Sept where I saw Madeleine with something very different done to her face, and I believe she was and still is in NW Liberia. If you consider that the only real sighting (my guess) of her was at Marrakech in Morroco at a petrol station, this may have been half way through the journey. Anyway it was just a dream, and I am not sure if there is any truth in this or not. I would have posted this earlier but thought she would have been found by now, and didn't want to confuse the case.

I think that's a good point about terrorists and 3-5-7-9-11, and it may very well turn out to be very relevant.

Re her face in your dream, whether we believe in dreams or not, it reminds us of plastic surgery possibilities. So that's two good ideas.

I keep wondering about the petrol station sighting too, your third good one, and the witness saying the child asked the man she was with "When will I see Mommy?" or "When can I see Mommy?" or words to that effect.

You're right that it could have been a travel break. She didn't say if they bought a candy bar or pop or something, even if they bought gas. There was a hotel right across the street.

To add to the above discussion, nobody here is claiming their leaving the children alone proves any premeditated guilt. Of course not. We are not stupid. Please don't insult your fellow posters by yourself jumpting to such wrong conclusions.

Nobody's even saying they're definitely guilty at all, just that the things we know so far just don't add up, and Kate's expressed so much negative about Madeleine. Any of us would be pretty overwhelmed by the appearance of twins with a toddler that young, and her work would be a lot easier now, especially if she didn't have to be, naturally, fearful of being charged, but none of that is the fault of the pulic or the police. They're actually accomplishing quite a lot, according to my printout yesterday which I probably posted. Happy Monday, Everyone.

Kate said Maddie had colic for 6 mo., and she had to carry her around all that time. I'll bet her very protective mother helped a lot, tho', and they didn't even invite her on the Portugal holiday with them. She probably wouldn't have wanted to go to the bar, especially if they would bring her something, might have stayed with the kids, judging partly by the TV sit com "Everybody Loves Raymond", where they had twins after a little girl, and grandmother loves to take care of the kids, lives right across the street. Mind you, I'm not saying this proves anything, except that twins would be a lot of work. When I used to have to cross a street with three very young children the usual distance apart in ages, I didn't have enough hands, I remember, to manipulate a stroller and hold onto the two who might dart in front of traffic. Kate should realize a lot of us have been thru all this. Maybe she's saying it was all for nothing, or, just likes to talk about herself.

So far none of us here has had the heart to mention other forums' "Hotlips Healey" revelations of her past, which doesn't seem to be at all outgrown. We know from our own experience the need to get out once in a while, but most of us aren't so over-trusting, no matter what the environment. How can we trust our doctors to save our lives if so many of them are this irresponsible? And I've noticed in a couple of family pictures, which may be the only ones there are, that Maddie looks by herself on the edge. Don't know for sure if that's her in the pic where Kate's holding the little boy and one child's missing. Could be Maddie, and the one standing looking up at the boy may be the girl twin.
Sorry, I don't remember now exactly where that gallery (?) is.

In one of the Hotlips articles, a former professor had said Kate "led" many students "astray", to the bar, I think he meant. She and her mom are evidently able to "lead" some to worry more about her situation, )when, remember, she can afford the best lawyers) RATHER THAN MADDIE'S!

I think that's the point. It's even suspicious, her being able to manipulate quite a few opinions, 20% according to one poll, like this.
Not intending to be judgemental,just an observable fact, she MAY have been overindulged a lot growing up and never expected parenting to be such a full-time job, we have to admit. But also it may turn out they find Maddie or a body and someone else takes Kate's place, there are so many adult men apparently involved. Surely she wouldn't pay them, as in a CTV Dominic Dunne story Sunday situated in Italy, where a socialite paid men to off her husband to prevent his second marriage. Kate probably wouldn't do that after all this time, all she's been through with Maddie, if she'd just shut up. A legal expert on Nancy Grace said these clients just aren't being "Managed" well.

BTW, the one seen accompanying police, Murat , I believe you mean, has been employed as a translator for them.

[Eagle1]

Police everywhere risk their lives to protect us, let's all remember with a lot of gratitude and respect.

And they have to solve cases too complicated for most of us, with EVOLVING equipment and methods.

I'm suspecting someone these parents knew may be the mastermind in this crime, if they would just make a list, do some thinking in that direction, which would also be their best defense. John Walsh, just one example, made enough efforts that nobody would suspect him.

His wife still feels horrible, I'm sure, about having left Adam in a toy department at a Florida Sears store. Some older kids were playing pinball I believe and Adam wanted to watch. When a fight broke out, all of them were put out of the store, and Adam was abducted from out there. I'm sure whoever threw them out if also suffering.

Kate's situation isn't unique. She should let some action speak louder than any words ever could, to settle the question of whether she even cares much about recovering Maddie. That's the test, what she actually does. Her mother would take care of the twins, along with some hired help, which they can well afford, I'm sure. Those parents should get busy instead of trying to manipulate us. That's not going to find their child! Let's don't be suckers, try to think of something to help that definitely innocent child, and others in future if it's too late for Maddie already. What does calling us haters accomplish?

[dallasvic]

I see we are back to the old They left them alone so they must be killers theory.

Well, that is not necessarily true, and it certainly is not proof of murder.

Everyone, even the McCanns themselves, say that was a huge mistake.

But it is not proof of murder.


I agree. They were not the only ones to leave their kids alone. Them just made a big MISTAKE and are paying for it in a big way:shrug:

[Eagle1]

Nobody is saying "They left the kids alone so they must be guilty."

[dallasvic]

Nobody is saying "They left the kids alone so they must be guilty."


Hi Eagle1,

I think she is talking about the story that was published earlier,about the parents giving the kids the medicine, now they know they did not give their kids medicine. The report was neg.

[andU]

Police everywhere risk their lives to protect us, let's all remember with a lot of gratitude and respect.

And they have to solve cases too complicated for most of us, with EVOLVING equipment and methods.

I'm suspecting someone these parents knew may be the mastermind in this crime, if they would just make a list, do some thinking in that direction, which would also be their best defense. John Walsh, just one example, made enough efforts that nobody would suspect him.

His wife still feels horrible, I'm sure, about having left Adam in a toy department at a Florida Sears store. Some older kids were playing pinball I believe and Adam wanted to watch. When a fight broke out, all of them were put out of the store, and Adam was abducted from out there. I'm sure whoever threw them out if also suffering.

Kate's situation isn't unique. She should let some action speak louder than any words ever could, to settle the question of whether she even cares much about recovering Maddie. That's the test, what she actually does. Her mother would take care of the twins, along with some hired help, which they can well afford, I'm sure. Those parents should get busy instead of trying to manipulate us. That's not going to find their child! Let's don't be suckers, try to think of something to help that definitely innocent child, and others in future if it's too late for Maddie already. What does calling us haters accomplish?

Well, I sure gotta tell ya that I don't have much respect for the police in Portugal. They have to be the one's 'leaking' info and false info at that. And I don't blame the McCanns for not wanting to go back to Portugal; they still have the twins to care for. They have hired investigators, right? Are there, does anyone know, volunteers searching in other countries?

Eagle, I thought you were supportive of the parents in this case. I'm shocked at your post, actually.

[Jayelles]

The only suckers I am seeing are those that suck in everything the tabloids are printing. As time progresses, we are seeing more and more that it was a pile of lies.

Latest news is that they are back to suggesting Robert Murat was involved and they seem to have abandoned the notion that Madeleine was transported in the hire car. That suggests to me that there is no forensic evidence to support their theories. What a surprise!

When you stand back and look at the commentary about the case, it seems as though anyone with an ounce of intelligence who has taken the time to read the news articles (instead of just the headlines) is saying that they don't think her parents killed Madeleine. Forensic experts and experienced detectives are saying so too.

The parents are being accused of everything from murdering their child to causing the break up of forum posters' relationships! I had to save that thread for posterity! This crazy person on another forum started a thread to say that her partner had left her because he just couldn't see sense over the McCann case. He just refused to see how they must be guilty and how there has to be a high level cover-up involving the British government! I wasn't convinced that the thread wasn't a wind up so out of curiosity I searched for her posts and found some pretty vile anti-mccann rants. I managed to refrain from suggesting that the real reason for her partner's departure might be the ugliness of her soul....

I am still amazed at the blatant lies which are being posted though. Someone claimed as fact (actually he claimed that he had gone to Praia da Luz and that his villa manager knew someone who had asked a contact LOL) that the McCanns had eaten at a restaurant called Chaplins on two of the evenings. I posted about this earlier on and how I'd researched this to find the source of it and found that it had appeared to originate on the forums! Anyway, today's newspapers reveal that the McCanns only ate in the hotel complex - twice in the Millenium Restaurant and four evenings in a row at the Tapas Bar. The psoter who claimed it as fact is now spinning that they must have gone to Chaplins AFTER they ate in the hotel complex because it was open till 2am..... (yeah).

And so it goes on. Fortunately, I am blessed with a great deal of patience and I think we'll need it. I think the wheels of justice will turn slowly in this case, but they are turning and gradually, the truth will emerge and the mob will slither back to wherever.

Incidentally, I didn't follow the Elizabeth Smart case. Did her parents get attacked at all?

[SFAgain]

..........
Now, why didn't the parents leave the kids at the creche?...........

Why didn't they use the listening service?...............

Yes, and why didn't they use cell phones/pagers, so if the person checking on the kids needed help, they wouldn't have to leave the situation and run back to the bar?

In hindsight everything that should've/could've been done is always abuntantly clear, equal to what shouldn't have been, especially to other people. But that is comming up with solutions after the fact. In any given situation that turns out to be a problem, I dare say, most, if not all, of us will come up with a better solution then what we did, said, or didn't do or say.


Possibly Maddie was old enough she could have been taught to use one if she woke up, instead of maybe going outside to look for them.... Just push a button.

How many do you know have the presence of mind to do something similar, before something has happened?

Lets say they had done it, teach a toddler how to "push a button" in case of emergency, would that have made a difference if it infact was a stranger who took the girl, would she have had the presence of mind to push the button (for this we actually have to assume she woke up)?

How would the situation be if this presumed abductor already was known to the girl, would she have pushed the button then?


Why did BOTH Kate and her mother think the public could be manipulated to think we or her boobs were to blame for the mess? An long-standing attitude problem maybe?

Has Kate, or her Mother, assumed they could manipulate the public, or is this an assumption that other people make?


Hysteria, they say, makes you want to slap a person, but why were no other mothers of missing children exhibit that, and, as someone at another forum asked, could they have been setting up a MENTAL ILLNESS DEFENSE in case there would ever be an arrest or other problems for them?


Says who? Kate? Gerry?

And how do you define hysteria, I mean really, to me most kids comes of as being hysteric, 'specially when they want something, doesn't mean they are clinicly suffering from hysteria, or that their parents suffers from this presumed hysteria.

Why would they be setting up a Mental Illness Defence since the only crime that has been commited, accordeing to PJ, would be removal of the presumed body?

Why didn't they even take Kate's mother on holiday with them if she's maybe a widow? Maybe she needed a vacation too and would have opted to stay with the children that night instead of carousing with all the parents.

Uhm, maybe she didn't wont to go, maybe they couldn't afford it ... maybe they didn't wont her there. Why would that make any difference as to wether the parents are guilty or not?

And besides they did have a more elderly mom included with the "Tapas9", she didn't looked after the kids, not even her own grandchildren.

Why assume that your own mother would want to look after your kids on a vacation trip, that's not what they are there for.


http://www.crimeshots.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7203&p... halfway down the page, and there are also other similar links, Kate was called "Hotlips Heally" in college, loved drinking and dancing, PASSED exams with ease. Just passing, not excelling, isn't the goal, imo. The couple just haven't grown up? She LOOKS lean and strong and stable in their family picture of the five of them, but of course looks have nothing to do with things. She is stupidly insulting us by insinuating we're that shallow and that we're doing anything to her. Some of us so identify with Maddie we're losing sleep over it sometimes.


That's rather ludicrous. If people who drinks, and partying, through the University years 10-20 years prior to becomming parents, per de facto are bad parents, you'd have the majority of educated people being bad parents, which of course isn't true.

What has her nickname anything to do with her parental skills? Maybe someone just thought she was verbally outspoken, or had sexy lips, and that was all, and that stuck.

Passing an exame with ease usually mean you also got good grades, at least from where I'm comming from.

I think you read too much "between the lines", that isn't there, from news reports, that are taken out of context (which they most always are) for the sole purpose of luring readers.

There's not any fault with assuming a theory to be right, if the facts actually fit that theory, but once you're starting to assume facts, probability kind of dictates you're out on thin ice, so to speak, and you end up with creating a house of cards.

For instance, what happens if the girl is found alive, (and neither of the parents are to blame), she grows up to read how, saddly, a lot of people jumped the gun to put blame on her parents? (Personally I don't think that would help her, or the parents, get over the whole ordeal.)

From where I am sitting, I just don't see all the pre-behavior factors (or obvious post-behavior) that, probably, would have put one or both of the parents in the cross hair of guilt. (Remember that both the parents were interviewed three times, twice by the PJ, once by a magistrate, within the first ten days. [for 11-12 hours at one times], still the PJ continued to work under the presumtion of one or more abductors. I.e. no guilt or blame were put on the parents.)

[Jayelles]

The story about the "bigger boobs" is baloney. Her mother gave an interview (I think she shouldn't have but that's just MHO) saying that Kate thought that if she weighed 2 stone heavier and looked "more maternal" then she might not be criticised so much.

The tabloids translated this into "If I had bigger boobs and looked less attractive".

The "bigger boobs" comment has since been repeated by people who didn't bother to research the original interview.

[Jayelles]

If they are having to dig so far into the McCanns background for some dirt, it is further proof to me that they have no evidence that they harmed Madeleine.

Let's face it - students party and they do daft things and the medics are notoriously the worst of them all.

[Jayelles]

Police everywhere risk their lives to protect us, let's all remember with a lot of gratitude and respect.

And they have to solve cases too complicated for most of us, with EVOLVING equipment and methods.

I'm suspecting someone these parents knew may be the mastermind in this crime, if they would just make a list, do some thinking in that direction, which would also be their best defense. John Walsh, just one example, made enough efforts that nobody would suspect him.

His wife still feels horrible, I'm sure, about having left Adam in a toy department at a Florida Sears store. Some older kids were playing pinball I believe and Adam wanted to watch. When a fight broke out, all of them were put out of the store, and Adam was abducted from out there. I'm sure whoever threw them out if also suffering.

Kate's situation isn't unique. She should let some action speak louder than any words ever could, to settle the question of whether she even cares much about recovering Maddie. That's the test, what she actually does. Her mother would take care of the twins, along with some hired help, which they can well afford, I'm sure. Those parents should get busy instead of trying to manipulate us. That's not going to find their child! Let's don't be suckers, try to think of something to help that definitely innocent child, and others in future if it's too late for Maddie already. What does calling us haters accomplish?

What actions do you suppose she should take that she has not already taken? Do you think she should be out in Portugal physically looking for Madeleine? That she should leave her twins to do that?

Do you even understand what the status of arguido means? The McCanns cannot talk about the case. They cannot move about geographically without permission from the Portuguese police. They have no idea where Madeleine is - she could be anywhere in the world. They were told by America's Missing Children experts that most children are recovered because someone has recognised them. So they set up the Find Madeleine campaign to get her photograph as widely published as possible.

What else do you think Kate McCann should be doing?

[SFAgain]

If they are having to dig so far into the McCanns background for some dirt, it is further proof to me that they have no evidence that they harmed Madeleine.

Let's face it - students party and they do daft things and the medics are notoriously the worst of them all.

I concur, I mean if the Brittish press, 'specially the tabloid side, hasn't been able dig up more "dirt" on the parents at this time, in today's age of information wealth, chances are neither of the parents are, or have been, abusing alchohol, drugs, or let alone their kids in any way. Or has a criminal history. Which pretty much point to that they aren't anything else then everyday people, who has had an everyday type of past behavior.

I can somewhat understand the focus the police are giving the parents, but the media? There's still a lot of possibilities out there, that are still unanswered, like the threesome couple who were spotted on the CCTV and confirmed by a German dad having been scarred off while taking pictures of his daughter (one of the males fit the description of a male suspect in a sexual abuse case, and the female fit the description of the one said to have been sneaking at the window of McCanns's apartment), then the guy who got busted in the Canari Islands (in a white van) trying to ubduct a girl, then, still, von Aesch (and his white van's) whereabouts in Algarve at the time of Madeleine's disappearance (or his wife), or the guy who left the Ocean Club one or two days after M's disappearance, or the guy with the yacht who had been moored for two years but left right after M's disappearance, not to mention that couple who got busted for trying to extort money from the McCanns, have they actually been completelly cleared from any involvment? So many possibilities that hasn't yet been excluded ...


(A white van had been seen parked outside the apartment prior to the girls disappearance, that's all.)

[Eagle1]

I dont care whom they are blaming but they need to KEEP FOCUS ON MADDY and MADDY ONLY..rich or poor it dont matter find her ..

Amen to that.

[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=SFAgain;9031611]
..............There's still a lot of possibilities out there, that are still unanswered, like the threesome couple who were spotted on the CCTV and confirmed by a German dad having been scarred off while taking pictures of his daughter (one of the males fit the description of a male suspect in a sexual abuse case, and the female fit the description of the one said to have been sneaking at the window of McCanns's apartment),
then the guy who got busted in the Canari Islands (in a white van) trying to ubduct a girl,
then, still, von Aesch (and his white van's) whereabouts in Algarve at the time of Madeleine's disappearance (or his wife),

or the guy who left the Ocean Club one or two days after M's disappearance,

or the guy with the yacht who had been moored for two years but left right after M's disappearance,
not to mention that couple who got busted for trying to extort money from the McCanns, have they actually been completelly cleared from any involvment?
So many possibilities that hasn't yet been excluded ...
(A white van had been seen parked outside the apartment prior to the girls disappearance, that's all.)
[QUOTE].........

Wow, quite a list. And I wish we'd all made a list as we went along. I think there are more. Including some guy who left the table at the Tappas saying he didn't want to be a part of some kind of pact? Which hasn't been defined, right?

[SFAgain]

..............There's still a lot of possibilities out there, that are still unanswered, like the threesome couple who were spotted on the CCTV and confirmed by a German dad having been scarred off while taking pictures of his daughter (one of the males fit the description of a male suspect in a sexual abuse case, and the female fit the description of the one said to have been sneaking at the window of McCanns's apartment),
then the guy who got busted in the Canari Islands (in a white van) trying to ubduct a girl,
then, still, von Aesch (and his white van's) whereabouts in Algarve at the time of Madeleine's disappearance (or his wife),

or the guy who left the Ocean Club one or two days after M's disappearance,

or the guy with the yacht who had been moored for two years but left right after M's disappearance,
not to mention that couple who got busted for trying to extort money from the McCanns, have they actually been completelly cleared from any involvment?
So many possibilities that hasn't yet been excluded ...
(A white van had been seen parked outside the apartment prior to the girls disappearance, that's all.)
.........

Wow, quite a list. And I wish we'd all made a list as we went along. I think there are more. Including some guy who left the table at the Tappas saying he didn't want to be a part of some kind of pact? Which hasn't been defined, right?

Hmm, as far as I can tell this "Pact" is something that Portuguese media put out as a spinn more than 2 month's after the fact, and from my understanding after the fact that the "Tapas9" had become fed up with the media-spinning BS in July/August.

But what if they made this "pact", a "pact of silence", it still only concerned, as far as have been reported, the media itself, and not the PJ, or any other authoritative institution.

Yes it is quite the list of actual "coincidences" (in my mind at least), strange things happen around us all the time, and they seem as strange coincidences, until we can fit them into a (more or less normal) context, that is why they need to be excluded as quickly as possible, otherwise we need to include them as well.

[dallasvic]

:seeya: Hi Everyone,

First I want to say that people all handle certain crisis in may different. When I was about 10 yrs old My step aunt and I were swimming and playing an game. We would take a stick to the bottom and letting it go and who ever got it on the way up. My aunt had long nails and when I got the stick and came to the top and opened my eyes and her nail stuck in my eye.
I ran into the house and when my mother seen the dent in my eye her knees went weak and she could not walk. She had to set down and got my aunt to call my dad.
They said that Kate could not move just like my mother and I am not missing or dead:shrug:
Kate is with the kids while Gerry is out doing poster.

Well, I sure gotta tell ya that I don't have much respect for the police in Portugal. They have to be the one's 'leaking' info and false info at that. And I don't blame the McCanns for not wanting to go back to Portugal; they still have the twins to care for. They have hired investigators, right? Are there, does anyone know, volunteers searching in other countries?

Eagle, I thought you were supportive of the parents in this case. I'm shocked at your post, actually.
andU,
I agree with you on that.
The story about the "bigger boobs" is baloney. Her mother gave an interview (I think she shouldn't have but that's just MHO) saying that Kate thought that if she weighed 2 stone heavier and looked "more maternal" then she might not be criticised so much.

The tabloids translated this into "If I had bigger boobs and looked less attractive".

The "bigger boobs" comment has since been repeated by people who didn't bother to research the original interview.
Hi Jay,

This sooooooooooooooo sick.Talking about this when a child is missing. Isn't this horrible ?:flamemad:
If they are having to dig so far into the McCanns background for some dirt, it is further proof to me that they have no evidence that they harmed Madeleine.

Let's face it - students party and they do daft things and the medics are notoriously the worst of them all.
I agree

[dallasvic]

What actions do you suppose she should take that she has not already taken? Do you think she should be out in Portugal physically looking for Madeleine? That she should leave her twins to do that?

Do you even understand what the status of arguido means? The McCanns cannot talk about the case. They cannot move about geographically without permission from the Portuguese police. They have no idea where Madeleine is - she could be anywhere in the world. They were told by America's Missing Children experts that most children are recovered because someone has recognised them. So they set up the Find Madeleine campaign to get her photograph as widely published as possible.

What else do you think Kate McCann should be doing?


Hi Jay,
I believe that Kate is doing the right thing. Right now she is caring for the twins. She need to make their life's as normal as possible. They are doing GREAT .

:rose: For~Maddie~And ~Family:rose:

[Eagle1]

Thought I had a quote here, must have accidentally deleted. Anyway, Dallasvic, how is your EYE now?

AndU, yes, I am changing my mind because of factors like Kate's mother trying to manipulate us with such a stupid statement about Kate thinking if she had bigger boobs and looked more maternal PEOPLE would be more sympathetic, and the constant attack on the public who're just more interested in Maddie than possibly over-indulged Kate. When this about the body type first happened, a legal expert on Nancy Grace's show remarked that whoever's supposed to be "managing" these clients isn't doing it well. You know as well as I do people weren't getting to this couple up close and personal blaming them, and that such a large percent of "people" are completely normal. The fault is not with us as she's trying to say. Evidently we're supposed to be just tools with a switch to flip, to be used.

There's lots of things. You have to read a lot of forums, which I'm sure you do. I'm certainly not alone in feeling it's such an insult to our intelligence, and there are the insults to the police, who are risking their lives for us all over the world and should be so appreciated and respected, tho' these particular ones haven't had much experience with this type of case. I think they're doing pretty well, up against the world. We should all be so loyal and supportive of them. They never claimed to have any magic powers. Often do manage to save us from the messes we get ourselves into. Hope I'm not sounding "lecturing" like those who've turned me off with their constant hater attacks on "haters", who can't seem to stop. It's nice that some forums have those rants in a separate thread so you don't even have to read them. Can't remember what I may have already said, sorry, which is unusual for me.

Back to the guessing game about the case, someone mentioned a possible publicity stunt gone wrong, which probably we all have had in the back of our minds. Here's a variation. The rest of the Tappas9 had been to Greece, I believe, without the McCanns. "What if" someone decided to play a trick on the McCanns at the next stop when they'd be joining them, and just hide Maddie for a while, but something happened that killed her. Not saying I definitely believe any certain thing. You know I never post a theory. Much less one set in stone.

The cadaver sniffer dogs found a trail of death to the church, and on both Kate's and another Tappas9 woman's clothing.

I tried googling to find out how soon the scent of death starts, only learned some spray was being advertised for funeral homes, that would get rid of both the scent of death and that of formaldehyde. The dogs would not have been hitting on people being brought there for a funeral, who would be well-embalmed also enclosed.

By that time, probably the McCanns weren't alone very much in the new apartment they'd moved into because the vacation one had become a crime scene. This is just a wild guess, not claiming it's the truth, but somehow they must have held Maddie somewhere before someone took her to the church. And later maybe to the beach behind it where an expert said she'd been at some point in the sand. Or, could the scent of death have transferred to these two womens' clothes, and to Cuddlecat, from a car?

We have no idea how many cars figured. Murat had the Scenic before the McCanns did according to someone at one forum, then rented a car for them to use putting up posters, instead of letting them use his, or something like that. Everyone's assuming the rental records would be accurate. Not necessarily, with all this going on. Also, Some guy left the table, and Portugal, I believe, saying he didn't want to be a part of some "pact".

We're not even started yet, imo. There's got to be a lot the McCanns simply aren't telling us. As usual I'm still staying pretty neutral now that the shock is wearing off, their trying to manipulate us in such an incredibly stupid way. There's also the thread at the Mirror about college days "Hotlips Healy" leading many other students "astray" at bars according to a former professor. He was surprised she could even pass her exams. Not that we want to deal in rumors, even from a prof, but we're just innocent bystanders trying to help, hadn't attacked them, constantly under attack just to divert attention from them.

Maddie was a quiet, rather shy child, I'm finding out, not at all like Kate said, who's just said too many negative things about her. Many of us have experienced the feeling of not enough hands when we had three very young children to hold onto, but we didn't make a big thing of it to others, about colic and all that comes with the territory. K. looks so lean and strong, I'm sure she could handle the temporary bedlam. Husbands not helping much also comes with the territory for most if not all women. We just shut up about it and adjust. I don't think we'd say that stuff if one of our charges went missing or was dead! We take it for granted people know what all we went through raising them I guess. Because we don't have a need to be so defensive. They're saying OJ talks like "If" he killed Nicole and Ron, she/they had it coming. At first I was afraid he was being railroaded because of race, which goes to show I'm as sympathetic as they come. Unless someone's just too different, and too on the attack against all of us in general. There's no excuse. Many people have lost children and don't act like spoiled brats. (Notice I didn't really say anyone's a s.b., just a thought fwiw.) We're all capable of making up our own minds. Just explaining my view because you asked.

[andU]

Eagle, actually, I don't read a lot of forums and the ones I do read/post are at times very frustrating. I cannot believe that people believe everything they read in the media. Until there are facts that prove the McCanns have injured/killed their daughter, I choose to believe that they are innocent. Notice that I said facts; not theories, not rubbish printed material. I can imagine Kate being depressed and upset making a statement in sarcasm about her body. If ..... you know, we've probably all done something similar at some point in our life.

[Eagle1]

Eagle, actually, I don't read a lot of forums and the ones I do read/post are at times very frustrating. I cannot believe that people believe everything they read in the media. Until there are facts that prove the McCanns have injured/killed their daughter, I choose to believe that they are innocent. Notice that I said facts; not theories, not rubbish printed material. I can imagine Kate being depressed and upset making a statement in sarcasm about her body. If ..... you know, we've probably all done something similar at some point in our life.

Hi, AndU, Thanks for the reply. I'm talking about their general demeanor, plus this almost last straw stupid and arrogant remark about how to flip our switch as if she's entitled to, her assuming what would successfully influence us as if we're just tools, together with the constant hammering at us innocent bystanders who've done nothing to the McCanns, and at the police, everybody fair game except the ones who got themselves into such a mess.

I don't keep up with what publications tell us what and I'm not gullible, especially to the many at other forums constantly presuming to lecture. For instance, when someone posted an article about Gerry Playing Tennis right after Maddie disappeared, someone rushed to explain to us dimwits that parents can react in different ways. What an idiot, I guess I can say here, not there, and there's so many like that intruding into otherwise pretty good new information threads. I forget which forum has a special thread for that, and we need to try to not do the same distracting thing. Just asserting that there's two sides. I still have an open mind that Maddie could have been abducted but would not go so far as to say the parents don't know more than they're telling. The dogs found the scent of death on Kate's clothing, and on another woman's of the Tappas9. And a scent of death trail to the church. Embalmed people being taken there for funerals would not leave an odor. Let's get back to factual things like that.

[Louisadelmar]

[...]

I miseed this phase of the Ramsey case, but if it was in any way similar.... I've had my eyes opened.

I think it was and is probably quite similar.

I know there was a phase similar to this in the van Dam case but it was cut short by the emergence of Westerfield as a suspect. I noticed during the trial that even the police reports reflected the change. When the parents were suspects reports were written emphasizing negative behavior. When they were no longer suspects it stopped. I think that's one of the reasons so many people disagreed while on the stand with what the reports said.

[andU]

I think it was and is probably quite similar.

I know there was a phase similar to this in the van Dam case but it was cut short by the emergence of Westerfield as a suspect. I noticed during the trial that even the police reports reflected the change. When the parents were suspects reports were written emphasizing negative behavior. When they were no longer suspects it stopped. I think that's one of the reasons so many people disagreed while on the stand with what the reports said.


The Ramsey case was very similar in the beginning... as far as the media having a field day with digging into the personal lives of the Ramseys. Talk shows, etc. were all abuzz about the case. After the initial news reports, I quit reading because I felt none of it could be taken as solid truth. It was horrific for them just as it is for the McCanns, IMO

[Jayelles]

I think it was and is probably quite similar.

I know there was a phase similar to this in the van Dam case but it was cut short by the emergence of Westerfield as a suspect. I noticed during the trial that even the police reports reflected the change. When the parents were suspects reports were written emphasizing negative behavior. When they were no longer suspects it stopped. I think that's one of the reasons so many people disagreed while on the stand with what the reports said.


Sorry - I'm quite probably being dimwitted here but what do you mean by your last sentence?

I watched a documentary about Elizabeth Smart last night. I didn't follow that case and hadn't realised that her family were subjected to the accusations too (nor that her uncle had taken a polygraph which was inconclusive).

I remember full and well the abuse the vanDams were subjected to and the fact that it was short-lived due to the excellent detective work which resulted in Westerfield being arrested. So too the lack of forensic evidence at the scene of Danielle's disappearance contrasted with the abundance of forensic evidence at Westerfield's abodes.

The McCanns launched their phoneline today and I am reading posts by McCann bashers who are amusing themselves by phoning it up and wasting their time.

[Jayelles]

The Ramsey case was very similar in the beginning... as far as the media having a field day with digging into the personal lives of the Ramseys. Talk shows, etc. were all abuzz about the case. After the initial news reports, I quit reading because I felt none of it could be taken as solid truth. It was horrific for them just as it is for the McCanns, IMO

I really wish the McCann friends and family would shut up. I can't believe no-one is advising them to do so. All they are doing is feeding the mob.

[andU]

I really wish the McCann friends and family would shut up. I can't believe no-one is advising them to do so. All they are doing is feeding the mob.

I wish they would zip it, too, Jayelles. Can they not see that every word is being turned around to be used against the McCanns? They should slam the phone down, slam the door shut and run (not walk) away when they are approached by media.

[SFAgain]

I really wish the McCann friends and family would shut up. I can't believe no-one is advising them to do so. All they are doing is feeding the mob.

Personally I don't think that what the McCann _try_ to communicate to the public is anything odd. Just look att the officially respones from the police in Portugal in this case, or offical police satements in any country, when the police themselfs get overly frustrated with what is reported in the media, and begins to _try_ to defuse commentaries ... which then the media use to their own "personal" advantage.

How is a person supposed to react to what that person finds to be either not true, or of no importance to the situation?

Most people react with some kind of response, even when they shouldn't, and if this "battle" takes place in the media, the response will have to come back through the media. And of course the media will use whatever info they themself think will be usefull for themselfs.

[Jayelles]

Personally I don't think that what the McCann _try_ to communicate to the public is anything odd. Just look att the officially respones from the police in Portugal in this case, or offical police satements in any country, when the police themselfs get overly frustrated with what is reported in the media, and begins to _try_ to defuse commentaries ... which then the media use to their own "personal" advantage.

How is a person supposed to react to what that person finds to be either not true, or of no importance to the situation?

Most people react with some kind of response, even when they shouldn't, and if this "battle" takes place in the media, the response will have to come back through the media. And of course the media will use whatever info they themself think will be usefull for themselfs.


You are right.

I also think the McCanns are finding it difficult to speak "naturally" as a result of the secrecy law they are bound by. They have to think about every word before they say it.

I was really disgusted by Pat Brown's (profilier) "open letter" attack on them. It was hurtful and totally unmerited IMO. And for her to have the gall to slag them off and then ask them to consider using the fund money to hire HER so that she could prove they are innocent.....! She'd be the last person I'd hire. The very fact that she used an "open letter" to communicate with them suggests a total lack of discretion, genuineness (sp - actually is this a word?) and questionable motive. It occurred to me that she has ALREADY approached them privately offering her services (to be paid for out of the fund) and been knocked back and that her "open letter" is payback.

It really does take a case like this to bring all the nasties out of the woodwork.

[Eagle1]

I have a possible hot tip but first, this thought.

We've been following enough cases by now, also watching CSI programs on A&E and Court TV, to know, LE always, always, always start with the family and work outwards. They're a lot more experienced than we are. The immediate snap judgement that the parents must be totally innocent is just that, an uninformed snap judgement. So is calling others a mob! I must confess I had the same feeling about the Ramseys, but we've added more experience to our resume now, and the "mob" are raising many legit questions. My theories are always subject to change as we learn more, and in fact I never post one in a theories thread, but here's another tentative one. I've been able to change my mind as more has come to light, and have no preference about who's ultimately guilty. I don't remember who's calling the public "the nasties", but I'm sure the feeling's mutual, and where are we getting with such impulsive judging instead of some facts? I'm sure the feeling's mutual.

Reading other forums, in the part of the world where this happened, where they see more TV interviews and everything, you find some surprising facts and realize, the public are just as intelligent as us, closer to the action or sometimes seeming lack thereof, are entitled to the same respect we expect from them.

The story of David and Bathsheba's illigit child's death was MARKED in Kate's Bible. (I don't know if any other scriptures were marked, or if someone just gave her that Bible with that marked. Kate's mother said none of them had been devout Catholics so she was surprised when they wanted a priest, the one who married them and baptized Maddie.) Now how did LE know to check Kate's Bible?

Many cult leaders cause deaths, sometimes of whole groups, like Heaven's Gate and Jonestown.

In the Ramsey case, Father Rol I believe quoted part of a psalm, "bind the sacrifice to the altar". I've always wondered what made him think of such an obscrue scripture which obviously didn't mean human sacrifice.

Here's my tentative theory, therefore. Some devil mastermind is perverting sacrifice scriptures to people who don't really know their Bibles, one reason the McCanns wanted to check with an orthodox priest after they may have been temporarily driven out of their minds and manipulated like in death cults. There would have been also other obvious reasons to want a priest, of course. As in the Ramsey case. I don't remember if this was so in the Van Dam case. Another similarity, in all three of these cases, a group of "friends" existed.

Not saying the parents did it, just as you can't say they didn't. We just waste time with all that.

Why would this madman have noticed Maddie, though? She wasn't in anything public such as pageants, as far as we know.

Speaking of scriptures, as I've pointed out before and let's don't ever forget, such a person is predicted, from whom nobody in the world can keep any secrets. That'd have to be in the age of modern technology, right? And there are a couple of clues about that in prophecy that I know of, maybe more that I don't know. (People flying, and some kind of "look upon" technology to be used on some Christian woman called by translators Israel, but it couldn't mean the nation because God promises to encourage her to win big, Micah 4. We've heard of "the apocalypse beast", the final antichrist, and his heretic false prophet, to watch out for. Whoever believes their lies will be allowed to perish. Have strong delusions. Hope I'm not boring you by repeating this background info long before he's caught. It will happen.) I sure hope Maddie is alive somewhere. I would love to have her for my "empty nest", don't honestly know about if I still had a full one. She is/was adorable, and shy, not at all like Kate first described her, which I for one noticed was awfully unnatural. None of us talk about our children that way, even if they had colic or whatever! We don't even think it, much less say it, like OJ giving the impression Nicole had it coming. Kate's been told to change her tune by now but it took a while.

There's lots more info available, lots more than I can remember to bring here, if we look around. Not that we'd believe everything. Neither should we believe one couple with obvious concerns about their legal problem.

[SFAgain]

I was really disgusted by Pat Brown's (profilier) "open letter" attack on them. It was hurtful and totally unmerited IMO. And for her to have the gall to slag them off and then ask them to consider using the fund money to hire HER so that she could prove they are innocent.....! She'd be the last person I'd hire. The very fact that she used an "open letter" to communicate with them suggests a total lack of discretion, genuineness (sp - actually is this a word?) and questionable motive. It occurred to me that she has ALREADY approached them privately offering her services (to be paid for out of the fund) and been knocked back and that her "open letter" is payback.

It really does take a case like this to bring all the nasties out of the woodwork.

Even if PB hadn't already written that hypothetical version of events where she finds it probable that Mr McCann could have put the body of his daughter in a suitcase and then took the remains home to Brittain (never mind the problem with getting the decomposing remains through Brittish airport security, or the ever watchfull eyes of police and media), I still wouldn't trust a case to her, even if it was free of charge.

Regarding the open letter I find it very odd that she stresses the point of "her facts" being only what the couple has said in interview or written, and then starts of with what Mrs McCann's mother said in an interview (that most likely has been taken out of context), followed by a lot more assumptions ... :confused:


(Personally I think true experts keep a lid on their own opinions, for the very good reason of keeping their integrity intact, and of coursse to make sure they are right more times then they are wrong.)

[Jayelles]

Even if PB hadn't already written that hypothetical version of events where she finds it probable that Mr McCann could have put the body of his daughter in a suitcase and then took the remains home to Brittain (never mind the problem with getting the decomposing remains through Brittish airport security, or the ever watchfull eyes of police and media), I still wouldn't trust a case to her, even if it was free of charge.

Regarding the open letter I find it very odd that she stresses the point of "her facts" being only what the couple has said in interview or written, and then starts of with what Mrs McCann's mother said in an interview (that most likely has been taken out of context), followed by a lot more assumptions ... :confused:


(Personally I think true experts keep a lid on their own opinions, for the very good reason of keeping their integrity intact, and of coursse to make sure they are right more times then they are wrong.)

You're joking me? She said that? Do you have a link?

I agree with you that the true professionals will reserve judgement - they have too much hanging on their being correct.

I commented elsewhere this morning that she has made this assessment without a) interviewing the McCanns or b) being privy to any of the case information/evidence. I simply cannot see a professional profiler doing that. Profiling isn't an exact science and there are so many variables that must surely be crucial to have the facts and nothing but the facts to work with.

She seems to be making the same error that a lot of people are making - i.e. taking tabloid stories at face value. Elsewhere, people are commenting that they think she sounds mad (as in crazy). Even those who *enjoyed* what she said about the McCanns are left scratching their heads over her suggestion that they spend the fund money on hiring her! Greedy woman.

I've been searching for any commentary from the other profilers (Douglas, McCrary etc) but none of them seem to have commented. My guess is that they wouldn't comment on this case because not only do we have very few facts - there is also a LOT of false information which isn't being corrected because those in a position to correct it (i.e. official capacity) cannot de to the secrecy laws!

[Pelicanette]

Sad to say, but high profile cases like this one bring all the nuts out of the woodwork.

In terms of what the McCanns say to the media, they are damned if they do and damned if they do not. If they are quiet, people say they have something to hide. If they talk, some people claim they are trying to "control" the news.

I think they should do and say what they feel compelled to do and say. They are free people, not charged with anything and not arrested. They can say and do what they want and go where they want.

On another forum, someone criticized Kate for considering going into social work, as if she had no right to do it. Kate apparently expressed an interest in child welfare, and this person deemed her unworthy of such a profession. Well, Kate has as much right as that poster or you or I to pursue the career of her choice.

I strongly believe that Madeleine was taken by an abductor. I see no proof at all that Kate or Gerry were in any way involved in her disappearance. I do not even know of any proof that Maddy is dead.

Many of the criticisms of the McCanns do not come even close to proof of any type of crime. Just because someone dislikes them or thinks they are poor parents, does not prove a thing.

Personally, I think they are good parents who made a mistake while on vacation. I think they are devastated by the loss of Madeleine and hope to find her alive at some point. I wish them well in every way.

There is a predator out there. Is anyone looking for him/her and for Madeleine besides the detectives hired by the McCanns? The police have not found Maddy or her body. I think she may still be alive.

[SFAgain]

You're joking me? She said that? Do you have a link?

Bottom of this page. And higher up on the page is an entry supposed to rationalize her theory. If she were the least bit of "scince-minded" she would use the more proper words: wildly speculating, what with the lack of real world facts.

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/search/label/Kate%20McCann



I commented elsewhere this morning that she has made this assessment without a) interviewing the McCanns or b) being privy to any of the case information/evidence. I simply cannot see a professional profiler doing that. Profiling isn't an exact science and there are so many variables that must surely be crucial to have the facts and nothing but the facts to work with.


Exactly.
The thing that I find to be most disturbing is that she continously try to add "narcissism" to the couple, and she base that on a narrow field of view through the media-eye, who only depicts selective moments under even more selective situations. Personally I think one needs a lot more information about someone to come to such a conclusion.



She seems to be making the same error that a lot of people are making - i.e. taking tabloid stories at face value. Elsewhere, people are commenting that they think she sounds mad (as in crazy). Even those who *enjoyed* what she said about the McCanns are left scratching their heads over her suggestion that they spend the fund money on hiring her! Greedy woman.


Well, when there are distressed people in dire need of help and a lot of money (about £2.6 mil EQ about $5.1 mil) upfront on the table "creepy crawlers" tend to come out en mass. :(

I've been searching for any commentary from the other profilers (Douglas, McCrary etc) but none of them seem to have commented. My guess is that they wouldn't comment on this case because not only do we have very few facts - there is also a LOT of false information which isn't being corrected because those in a position to correct it (i.e. official capacity) cannot de to the secrecy laws!

I agree. Professionals should conduct themself in a professional way. :cool:

[Pelicanette]

It has long been apparent that some people are seething with jealousy of Kate. When they criticize her weight, her high-lighted hair, her smile or lack thereof, the way she dresses, the fact that she is a strikingly pretty woman...I think that adds up to jealousy.

I understand what Kate meant when she said that she might get more sympathy if she looked more maternal. Kate is the epitome of the modern beauty....tall, slender, blonde. In earlier pictures, she is absolutely radiant.

I think some people resent her for her beauty, and that is sad.

Just my opinion...but if you read the cruel remarks on some forums, you will see what I mean.

Now to the question of partying....I do not consider what Kate did with the other Tapas friends as partying. They were having dinner with wine. They were socializing and laughing and talking in a public place. I see nothing inappropriate about it at all.

Looking back into her college years and beyond is just plain silly. It has nothing to do with the present. If everyone who partied in college was deemed an unfit mother, most of us would be childless. Ha. Kate appears to have been a normal, popular and vibrant girl.

I do not think that the people who judge her so harshly could live up to their own standards. I sometimes wonder just how "perfect" they are in the parenting department. Maybe their own children would not rank them as high in the performance of motherhood as they might wish. Kate was a good mother and still is.

[Jayelles]

Bottom of this page. And higher up on the page is an entry supposed to rationalize her theory. If she were the least bit of "scince-minded" she would use the more proper words: wildly speculating, what with the lack of real world facts.

http://patbrownprofiling.blogspot.com/search/label/Kate%20McCann




Exactly.
The thing that I find to be most disturbing is that she continously try to add "narcissism" to the couple, and she base that on a narrow field of view through the media-eye, who only depicts selective moments under even more selective situations. Personally I think one needs a lot more information about someone to come to such a conclusion.




Well, when there are distressed people in dire need of help and a lot of money (about £2.6 mil EQ about $5.1 mil) upfront on the table "creepy crawlers" tend to come out en mass. :(



I agree. Professionals should conduct themself in a professional way. :cool:

Thanks for the link! This is un-flipping-believable! Pat Brown's experience of British air-travel is that the chances of getting your suitcase searched are low - therefore she reckons the McCanns could have put Madeleine's decomposing body in one of their suitcases and travelled back to the UK with it! Bit of a smoking gun if they DID get searched!

Did she forget about the luggage being x-rayed? Airport security in the Uk has been extremely tight -especially this year.

Deary me!

There is also the little matter of Patricia Cornwell suspecting Kate because of her saying "They've taken her". Oh my. It is actually far from certain (even likely) that she DID say this. The statement was accredited to Nanny Pennington whom we know know was NOT at the scene until ten minutes or so had elapsed. She gave a press interview and said that she was babysitting when a mother came in and told her than a child was missing. Nanny Pennington is certainly NOT going to know what kate's first words were at all!

I used to be a fan of Patricia Cornwell but I went off her after I met her (and her creepy partner). I didn't buy any of her books until she wrote the Jack the Ripper book a few years ago and I took it on a cruise with me thinking it would a good read for the duration. Alas it was really awful. She spent the entire book building a case against the artist Walter Sickert as the Ripper. She claimed he was incapable of having sexual relations because of a deformity of his genitals COMPLETELY IGNORING the well known fact that Walter Sickert has a son - Joseph Sickert! She didn't even try to explain away Joseph Sickert. His existence was clearly a very inconvenient fact which destroyed her theory - so she ignored him completely. She got hammered by serious ripperologists for this and she lost a lot of credibility as a crime author who researches well.

[Jayelles]

It has long been apparent that some people are seething with jealousy of Kate. When they criticize her weight, her high-lighted hair, her smile or lack thereof, the way she dresses, the fact that she is a strikingly pretty woman...I think that adds up to jealousy.

I understand what Kate meant when she said that she might get more sympathy if she looked more maternal. Kate is the epitome of the modern beauty....tall, slender, blonde. In earlier pictures, she is absolutely radiant.

I think some people resent her for her beauty, and that is sad.

Just my opinion...but if you read the cruel remarks on some forums, you will see what I mean.

Now to the question of partying....I do not consider what Kate did with the other Tapas friends as partying. They were having dinner with wine. They were socializing and laughing and talking in a public place. I see nothing inappropriate about it at all.

Looking back into her college years and beyond is just plain silly. It has nothing to do with the present. If everyone who partied in college was deemed an unfit mother, most of us would be childless. Ha. Kate appears to have been a normal, popular and vibrant girl.

I do not think that the people who judge her so harshly could live up to their own standards. I sometimes wonder just how "perfect" they are in the parenting department. Maybe their own children would not rank them as high in the performance of motherhood as they might wish. Kate was a good mother and still is.




I think I already mentioned the person who had claimed as fact that the McCanns had gone to a further away restaurant earlier in the week but that the most recent report contradicts this. Well some posters are so desperate for them to have gone to this other restaurant that they are suggesting they went AFTER they'd been to the Tapas Bar because it remains open till 2am.

I don't know any couple with three young children under the age of four who party night after night until 2am. There is no evidence they "partied" till 2am - it's all speculation.

When we are choosing a location for our Med holidays (we have at least one every year), we choose for the following priorities in this order:-

1) a kids club for our Tootsie (7). This is the #1 priority for us because our other children are much older and it's to keep her entertained and with company.
2) Good food - the Spaniards are very good at providing tasty buffets to suit all palates
3) Nice surroundings - not too hilly for my Mum who is 84 and who likes to get out walking to keep her joints supple
4) Entertainment - we like to watch a show and have a few drinks

We aren't big drinkers (I rarely drink at all) but we do drink more on vacation. We love sangria and will drink a litre of it at lunchtime and we'll usually have a bottle of wine with our evening meal. On top of that, we might have a beer in the afternoon and a cocktail or two in the evening. When it's spread out over the day it doesn't feel like much at all and we are certainly not drinking as much as many of the other guests!

[Pelicanette]

The word "partying" suggests getting really drunk, behaving rather inappropriately or loosely and having little regard for what one is doing. The McCanns and their friends were eating dinner and having wine with dinner. Nothing more.

I keep hearing people say that the McCanns should have done this or that. For instance, people say they should have put the kids in the creche or hired a sitter in the flat. But what if they had done that, and one of the children had been molested or kidnapped?

My point is that nothing can guarantee the safety of the child. Many children are snatched from their own homes while their parents sleep nearby. Kate and Gerry are being crucified because they left the children alone for a while, which is not a wise thing to do, but which many did that night without any dire consequences.

I think some people are so intent on "punishing" the McCanns that they no longer even care about finding Maddy or about what happened to Maddy. Their whole focus is on making the McCanns pay for what they deem "poor parenting."

You are right, people often go out of their way to implicate the McCanns. If one pet theory falls through, they just dig up another one. The hire car rumors did not pan out, so they moved on to Maddy falling on the stairs or Maddy taking too much medicine.

But the most probable thing is an abduction.

[Pelicanette]

By now, most of you have probably seen the sketch of the man that Jane Tanner saw walking with a child but did not realize the significance of until later. It may or may not be the abductor or Maddy, but these are my impressions of the picture. I would be interested in hearing your initial impressions, too.


1. The man appears to be a local, someone who is Portuguese or at least of Mediterranean descent.

2. He is a young man who is slender.

3. His clothing may be part of a uniform or resort wear for employees, since the shirt is dark and long-sleeved and the pants are beige or khaki.

4. Although his face cannot be seen, he appears neat and "attractive" and certainly not fear-inducing or suspicious.

5. His haircut is rather modern and youthful, which means he is attentive to his appearance.

6. He does not appear dirty, as a gardener or other workman might.

7. He is not carrying the child the way a parent usually does. A parent usually carries a child, even a sleeping one, with its head on a shoulder and the parent's arms around the back and/or bottom.

8. He is carrying the child the way someone would who had just removed her from her bed and did not want to waken her.

9. He is not running, but he appears to be taking rather long, purposeful strides.

10. He is looking straight ahead, as if he knows exactly where he is going.

11. His left hand may be over her mouth or face.

[SFAgain]

Thanks for the link! This is un-flipping-believable! Pat Brown's experience of British air-travel is that the chances of getting your suitcase searched are low - therefore she reckons the McCanns could have put Madeleine's decomposing body in one of their suitcases and travelled back to the UK with it! Bit of a smoking gun if they DID get searched!

Did she forget about the luggage being x-rayed? Airport security in the Uk has been extremely tight -especially this year.


Not to mention that Brittish airport security was, at the very least least, close to top notch even before 9/11, due to IRA. And even if you exclude the x-ray, not only the narc dogs, but the bomd hounds, would probably start acting wierd close to decomp, unless they for some wierd reason have been specifically trained not to react to decomp, which would probably be a first for a police dog.

Then I wonder how exactly PB asses' that the McCann couple actually had big enough suitcases, if any, does she know for sure, or does she assume?

And even if they would be able to manage to physically fit their daughter's presumed body into a suitcase, and then get that through both Portugese airport security and Brittish airport security. They would have to be either real psychopath's and hugely criminally sophisticated to be so sure that they could succede, or completely psychotic.

If they were psychotic, they would most likely not have hidden the presumed body in the first place. And to me neither of them come off as being any where near a criminally sophisticated psychopath.

That "theory" of her is as odd as alien abduction.



There is also the little matter of Patricia Cornwell suspecting Kate because of her saying "They've taken her". Oh my. It is actually far from certain (even likely) that she DID say this. The statement was accredited to Nanny Pennington whom we know know was NOT at the scene until ten minutes or so had elapsed. She gave a press interview and said that she was babysitting when a mother came in and told her than a child was missing. Nanny Pennington is certainly NOT going to know what kate's first words were at all!

Such a statement can be very important, especially if it is the first thing that is said, and then especially to the police. Otherwise all it takes is pretty much one of two things, well maybe both: The person has more or less recently read about abductions, (and/or are very afraid -- perhaps unconsciously -- about someone abducting their child), or for someone else to mention the very likelyhood, hopefully in fears: "I hope she hasn't been taken/kidnapped/abducted?", all of which will probably set the stage down that road. (This was different 15-20+ years ago, but today, people are more aware, due to the impact of media in combination with the webb.)

I used to be a fan of Patricia Cornwell but I went off her after I met her (and her creepy partner). I didn't buy any of her books until she wrote the Jack the Ripper book a few years ago and I took it on a cruise with me thinking it would a good read for the duration. Alas it was really awful. She spent the entire book building a case against the artist Walter Sickert as the Ripper. She claimed he was incapable of having sexual relations because of a deformity of his genitals COMPLETELY IGNORING the well known fact that Walter Sickert has a son - Joseph Sickert! She didn't even try to explain away Joseph Sickert. His existence was clearly a very inconvenient fact which destroyed her theory - so she ignored him completely. She got hammered by serious ripperologists for this and she lost a lot of credibility as a crime author who researches well.

Oh, I'm lucky I haven't spent any time and money on her book then (I probably gonna have to buy it now anyway, shoot.)

I pretty much stopped being interested in the Ripper case after I read Mr Douglas's book "The Cases That Haunt us". I think he pretty much nailed it, because his conclusion makes complete sense. The only thing I could make logical sense of on my own before was that who ever the ripper was, and if he actually was responsible for the murder of Kelly, such a person would not have been able to go back to murdering prostitutes in less gruesome ways. Of course, maybe he was that goal driven that Kelly was the end of the line and then he could go back to his "normal life", but I doubt it would work for someone like the Ripper, as a final goal would work for an Athlete.

[dallasvic]

Personally I do not believe the McCanns had anything to do with Maddie's disappearance. I believe that 90 to 95% of the articles that have been written are from leaks from the police dept. I do not even believe 10% of it myself.
This whole case has been blown out of pa-portion. I think Maddie is alive and I believe Marut or what ever his name is had a hand in her being missing now.

[docwho3]

. . .You are right, people often go out of their way to implicate the McCanns. If one pet theory falls through, they just dig up another one. The hire car rumors did not pan out, so they moved on to Maddy falling on the stairs or Maddy taking too much medicine.

But the most probable thing is an abduction. . . So what do we know about the Urs Von Aesch connection to this case? Has that link been disproven yet?

With all the things those dogs did hit on I am beginning to wonder if there was any place they did NOT hit on. This case gets "curiouser" and "curiouser" as time goes on.

[Eagle1]

Von Aesch and some others are still strong suspects to most of us, right?

Although bolded posts are a lot easier for me, a diabetic complications eye patient, to read, maybe we need a reminder they're considered rude. I read years ago before even starting with computers it's considered shouting. Arrogant. Just a reminder. I for one have learned to scroll past the arrogant preaching posts, looking for some relevant facts instead. "Just the facts, ma'am," as Jack Webb used to say when women would go off on an emotional hysterical tangent.

There are lots of interesting FACTS to consider instead of trying to bully everyone about the McCanns, which may even be having the opposite effect from what you wanted.

Von Aesch and his ilk, for instance. And the dogs hitting on a scent of death trail to the church, also on Kate's and a friend's clothing, maybe transfer from holding Cuddlecat or from a car? Embalmed people being taken to the church for funerals wouldn't leave this odorous trail, I don't THINK, that only dogs could smell. Maybe they do?

Earth calling the preachers,TooHoo, Do embalmed bodies enclosed in caskets and vans leave an odor dogs could detect leading to the church?

I realize this has never been done before, but what if a couple more artists did a drawing using Jane Tanner's description? I'm sure the subject would look somewhat different in each but there would be some similarities. How can she remember exactly after so long?

If the child's legs were really hanging down like that, he or she must have been asleep or drugged. There was no struggling going on.

[Jayelles]

Von Aesch and some others are still strong suspects to most of us, right?

Although bolded posts are a lot easier for me, a diabetic complications eye patient, to read, maybe we need a reminder they're considered rude. I read years ago before even starting with computers it's considered shouting. Arrogant. Just a reminder. I for one have learned to scroll past the arrogant preaching posts, looking for some relevant facts instead. "Just the facts, ma'am," as Jack Webb used to say when women would go off on an emotional hysterical tangent.

There are lots of interesting FACTS to consider instead of trying to bully everyone about the McCanns, which may even be having the opposite effect from what you wanted.

Von Aesch and his ilk, for instance. And the dogs hitting on a scent of death trail to the church, also on Kate's and a friend's clothing, maybe transfer from holding Cuddlecat or from a car? Embalmed people being taken to the church for funerals wouldn't leave this odorous trail, I don't THINK, that only dogs could smell. Maybe they do?

Earth calling the preachers,TooHoo, Do embalmed bodies enclosed in caskets and vans leave an odor dogs could detect leading to the church?

I realize this has never been done before, but what if a couple more artists did a drawing using Jane Tanner's description? I'm sure the subject would look somewhat different in each but there would be some similarities. How can she remember exactly after so long?

If the child's legs were really hanging down like that, he or she must have been asleep or drugged. There was no struggling going on.

This will be my only reply to you here and it's "for the record".

1) There are precious few "facts" known about this case. A newspaper editor said yesterday on BBC Radio that the only real "facts" in the public domain are that Madeleine McCann is missing and that her parents and Robert Murat are Arguidos. What he meant by that is that no other details have been confirmed from any official source.

2) What YOU are describing as "facts" are nothing more than tabloid speculation. (i.e. just because the tabloid newspaper 24 Horas claims that Madeleine was sedated does not make it a fact). These tabloids have been proved wrong more often than they've been right. Like me, the newspaper editor I refer to above, said he is mystified that there are people who accept them as factual.

3) What you refer to as "bullying" (a veiled attack on me) are statements which point this out. Some of us are only interested in real facts. Please back off from the veiled attacks.

No-one here is trying to spin things in the favour of the parents. What we ARE doing is pointing out that the tabloid spin is just that.

The Newspaper editor who spoke on the radio yesterday said that 24 Horas is notorious for making up stories and that he would personally never believe a word they said. He also said that another newspaper Correis (sp) was much more credible and is the newspaper of choice for Portuguese Authorities when they issue press releases.

I would suggest that if you want to discuss theories based upon the tabloid speculation about the case (the theories which you refer to as "interesting facts"), that you start a specific thread for doing so.

However, I certainly have no interest in discussing them with you, but you never know - someone might.

[Eagle1]

This will be my only reply to you here and it's "for the record".

2) What YOU are describing as "facts" are nothing more than tabloid speculation. (i.e. just because the tabloid newspaper 24 Horas claims that Madeleine was sedated does not make it a fact). These tabloids have been proved wrong more often than they've been right. Like me, the newspaper editor I refer to above, said he is mystified that there are people who accept them as factual.

3) What you refer to as "bullying" (a veiled attack on me) are statements which point this out. Some of us are only interested in real facts. Please back off from the veiled attacks.

No-one here is trying to spin things in the favour of the parents. What we ARE doing is pointing out that the tabloid spin is just that........

Actually, I don't really do tabloids, I realize I should have made clear by now, first off, didn't realize anyone thought that so strongly.

Does anyone else think I'm getting everything or anything from tabloids? I'm getting most info from other forums, and might include their sources, just because some make a point of sources. I'm not myself familiar with tabloids.

Re-reading my post, I was a tad stronger than usual, apologies to all if it was too strong a reaction to SO MANY preaching at us as if we're idiots, not an attack on Jayelles, whose opinions and research efforts I greatly appreciate on other subjects. I must have really failed in making clear that I'm not tabloid obsessed. Truth is there's sometimes some truth in tabloids, or they wouldn't be selling, and most of us know to skip over any horsing around, in tabloids if we ever read them, can't even get these particular ones in the states, or on other forums. We know horsing around and kidding around when we see it. Please don't assume so much about us that is dead wrong and let's get back to case, I'm sure most of us agree.

[Eagle1]

Some Case Facts & Questions Never Resolved AS Far As I Know

1. Someone at another forum posted that the scent of death trail to the church could be due to people being taken there for funerals.

We never notice any odor when people have been embalmed. Would dogs? They'd also be enclosed in vans and caskets.

2. A scent of death was also found by the cadaver dogs on Kate's and a friend's clothing, possibly from CuddleCat, or, could they have held Maddie?

3. One sketch has been released, the alleged man seen by Jane Tanner. At, I think, CourtTV, people are mentioning other suspects that should be sketched.

Enough for starters?

[Eagle1]

Most forums seem to be discussing Gerry's saying to Kate after an interview, "Don't say anything till the mic is off", then walking away when she seemed to want comforting.

That's another FACT to discuss, tho' I don't guess any of us saw the interview here in the United States.

Sorry I didn't make clear that I'm getting this stuff from forums in general, not tabloids, and didn't make clear there have been several people who can't move on from preaching at us the innocent bystanders, that I value Jayelles as I know everyone here does! I've seen such sensitive remarks before, so I'm no different. Nothing personal. Can we just get back to work ?

Yesterday at a doctor's office I had enough wait time to skim the People Magazine article, the one with Maddie's picture on the front. Didn't read closely. I asked someone sitting there if Maddie's eyes looked blue or brown in the cover picture. She said blue. There had been a question raised at another forum that Maddie had brown eyes, both parents blue. This morning I read somewhere else, the Interpol poster I think, one eye is green, the other green and blue with the brown "flash". They didn't call it that.

If I wanted to read tabloids I'd certainly have that right, and it would only mean I'm that curious, and have that much time, which actually I don't. If I give a tabloid link, it's because people here do ask for links, and it's part of some other internet poster's statement. I didn't look it up myself by buying any papers. In the states we're not getting much media coverage that I know of. I don't usually buy newspapers anyway since my extreme vision problems, lucky I can still drive. Might skim one article. I can see a house or a car, and backlighted text on my computer.

[Jayelles]

Here is the artist's impression of the man whom Jane Tanner saw carrying a child away from the Ocean Club apartments:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00224/maddy_kidnapp_compo_224784a.jpg

The documentary which was shown on tv last week showed the sketch which Portuguese police used. Apparently, their secrecy laws are so strict, that all they were allowed to show potential witnesses was a featureless face - literally a blank shape faced blob!

The sketch is probably a long-shot, but you never know. All it takes is one call to put the investigation on track and maybe get Madeleine back.

[Jayelles]

So what do we know about the Urs Von Aesch connection to this case? Has that link been disproven yet?

With all the things those dogs did hit on I am beginning to wonder if there was any place they did NOT hit on. This case gets "curiouser" and "curiouser" as time goes on.


Is this the Swiss guy who committed suicide? He certainly seemed like a good suspect having been linked to another little blonde girl's murder and having been in the Algarve at the same time as the McCanns.

We haven't heard any more about him.

The sniffer dog "alerts" information come from the Spanish tabloids - not from any official source. I remember in the vanDam case that there were leaks about the cadaver dogs but when it came to the trial, the truth wasn't quite the same story.

[Results]

Here is the artist's impression of the man whom Jane Tanner saw carrying a child away from the Ocean Club apartments:-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00224/maddy_kidnapp_compo_224784a.jpg

The documentary which was shown on tv last week showed the sketch which Portuguese police used. Apparently, their secrecy laws are so strict, that all they were allowed to show potential witnesses was a featureless face - literally a blank shape faced blob!

The sketch is probably a long-shot, but you never know. All it takes is one call to put the investigation on track and maybe get Madeleine back.

Why did it take 6 months to get this drawing out there? Why not the next day of the disappearance of maddy? We are talking about a child for goodness sakes.

[Jayelles]

Why did it take 6 months to get this drawing out there? Why not the next day of the disappearance of maddy? We are talking about a child for goodness sakes.

As I said above, a sketch was used earlier on by the Portuguese police but it could only be of a blank face (apparently due to their secrecy laws).

The McCanns are treading on very thin ice with anything they do to further the investigation because they can be jailed if they cross the secrecy law.

Note that they only have the "tacit" approval of the Portuguese police for publishing this artists impression. This basically means they asked for permission, got silence in response and went ahead on the understanding that there was no objection.

The Arguido status restricts the McCanns from doing a lot of things. I think many people simply do not understand this.

[Results]

As I said above, a sketch was used earlier on by the Portuguese police but it could only be of a blank face (apparently due to their secrecy laws).

The McCanns are treading on very thin ice with anything they do to further the investigation because they can be jailed if they cross the secrecy law.

Note that they only have the "tacit" approval of the Portuguese police for publishing this artists impression. This basically means they asked for permission, got silence in response and went ahead on the understanding that there was no objection.

The Arguido status restricts the McCanns from doing a lot of things. I think many people simply do not understand this.

No, I'm sorry they will have to lock me up because if I had a description of my child's abductor its going on every tv show that is available and then when that sighting in the other place there would be a sketch for that one. Your talking about your child. Sketch's get them out there fast. It is fresh from the start a bigger chance in the first 48 hours actually better if in the first 24 hours. No, not six months later. Lock me up the sketch's would be going up as soon as I could get them out there. JMHO

[Jayelles]

No, I'm sorry they will have to lock me up because if I had a description of my child's abductor its going on every tv show that is available and then when that sighting in the other place there would be a sketch for that one. Your talking about your child. Sketch's get them out there fast. It is fresh from the start a bigger chance in the first 48 hours actually better if in the first 24 hours. No, not six months later. Lock me up the sketch's would be going up as soon as I could get them out there. JMHO

Clearly, they should have people like you working for them.

[Jayelles]

Why did it take 6 months to get this drawing out there? Why not the next day of the disappearance of maddy? We are talking about a child for goodness sakes.

Here you are - there was an artists impression right at the start but police didn't want to release it:-

Guilhermino Encarnacao, chief of police in the region, said he had an artist's impression of the abductor but he feared that releasing it may put the three-year-old's life in danger.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/sunday/2007/05/06/the-net-s-closing-in-98487-19053609/

That is hardly the parents' fault.

[Eagle1]

Some individual British citizen was expelled from Morocco for trying to find out something at that gas station near Marrakesh!

According to SOS Maddie and a couple of posters at CTV. Why do some countries have such strange laws? It's considered a violation of their national sovreignty if you even hire a p.i. or try to be one yourself in Morocco? Then what about the millionaire's hiring one or some, that we've heard about previously?

Is this by any chance a brand-new law? Not likely but if so it'd seem to be a clue that powerful people are involved in this.

And of course people who see video's that we don't have in the states are listing discrepancies in stories, which if we want to keep for future reference we should always print out. Whole forums can disappear. I read today the McCanns are threatening to file suit against an expert, who's a body language and psychiatry expert, I guess, Jose, something like Carreras, but I don't think that's it, and I'll bet it's no longer available to print if it was at the Mirror. Maybe it's CTV, "Lies, Disconnects, Changed Stories" or another thread. I was in a hurry trying to cover a lot of different sites.

An obvious question, does their wanting to take time for a lawsuit mean they really do know Maddie's no longer with us? This is regarding the same interview where Gerry told Kate Don't say anything until the mic's off, and walked away, I may have already posted, sorry, and they said always squeezed her hand when she would start to speak.

Somewhere I also read that a couple of sketches of other suspects are needed.

[Jayelles]

I'm going to tell you what I tell everyone that I debate a subject with...don't hate just debate. No need for that attitude I have not disrespected you and you really don't want me to start. JMHO

Actually, with respect, I'm not really interested in discussing personalities and there is really no need to threaten me.

However, I would be interested in your comments about my previous post regarding the Portuguese police's decision NOT to release the artist's impression. Do you at least acknowledge that the parents cannot be blamed for that?

[Results]

Actually, with respect, I'm not really interested in discussing personalities and there is really no need to threaten me.

However, I would be interested in your comments about my previous post regarding the Portuguese police's decision NOT to release the artist's impression. Do you at least acknowledge that the parents cannot be blamed for that?

LOL Where did you get a threat? You were out of line and you know you were. I seen you post a link to a paper that you claim to hate of a first sketch that looked like an egg with hair on it. Who can identify that picture and you are telling me that the Portugueses police would NOT release a sketch where do you get that information from. I would have to know more about these sketch releases being withheld by police before I can admit to anything. Is this the sketch you are talking about:

http://i24.tinypic.com/30mmqlc.jpg

BTW, just a question so I can be clear when is the Mirror paper reliable and when is it not?

JMHO

[Jayelles]

I seen you post a link to a paper that you claim to hate of a first sketch that looked like an egg with hair on it. Who can identify that picture and you are telling me that the Portugueses police would NOT release a sketch where do you get that information from. I would have to know more about these sketch releases being withheld by police before I can admit to anything. Is this the sketch you are talking about:

http://i24.tinypic.com/30mmqlc.jpg

BTW, just a question so I can be clear when is the Mirror paper reliable and when is it not?

JMHO


That is the artists impression I referred to above which was actually used by Portuguese police. It was all the Portuguese police would use so the McCanns can hardly be blamed for this.

The Mirror is reliable when it corroborates other sources. The other source for this was a documentary on Channel 4 last week called Dispatches which is a highly respected factual programme. Unfortunately, I cannot link to a tv programme.

[Results]

Some individual British citizen was expelled from Morocco for trying to find out something at that gas station near Marrakesh!

According to SOS Maddie and a couple of posters at CTV. Why do some countries have such strange laws? It's considered a violation of their national sovreignty if you even hire a p.i. or try to be one yourself in Morocco? Then what about the millionaire's hiring one or some, that we've heard about previously?

Is this by any chance a brand-new law? Not likely but if so it'd seem to be a clue that powerful people are involved in this.

And of course people who see video's that we don't have in the states are listing discrepancies in stories, which if we want to keep for future reference we should always print out. Whole forums can disappear. I read today the McCanns are threatening to file suit against an expert, who's a body language and psychiatry expert, I guess, Jose, something like Carreras, but I don't think that's it, and I'll bet it's no longer available to print if it was at the Mirror. Maybe it's CTV, "Lies, Disconnects, Changed Stories" or another thread. I was in a hurry trying to cover a lot of different sites.

An obvious question, does their wanting to take time for a lawsuit mean they really do know Maddie's no longer with us? This is regarding the same interview where Gerry told Kate Don't say anything until the mic's off, and walked away, I may have already posted, sorry, and they said always squeezed her hand when she would start to speak.

Somewhere I also read that a couple of sketches of other suspects are needed.


Here you go:

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9034631&postcount=939

[odette]

For anyone who may have missed this post in the "News Updates" thread.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9027447&postcount=873

[Results]

That is the artists impression I referred to above which was actually used by Portuguese police. It was all the Portuguese police would use so the McCanns can hardly be blamed for this.

The Mirror is reliable when it corroborates other sources. The other source for this was a documentary on Channel 4 last week called Dispatches which is a highly respected factual programme. Unfortunately, I cannot link to a tv programme.

Thanks for that information about the Mirror. Is Channel 4 like Nancy Grace?

[Results]

For anyone who may have missed this post in the "News Updates" thread.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9027447&postcount=873

Hey Odette:

Good to see you. Thanks for all the updates on this thread. Very interesting!

[Results]

For anyone who may have missed this post in the "News Updates" thread.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9027447&postcount=873

Oh my I guess that Tv program can be linked. Thank you!

[Jayelles]

For anyone who may have missed this post in the "News Updates" thread.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9027447&postcount=873

I did miss this. Many thanks. I was away for a couple of days when it was on and although I set it up to record, it only recorded part of the programme. This will let me see the bits I missed.

[Jayelles]

Thanks for that information about the Mirror. Is Channel 4 like Nancy Grace?

I really don't know. For a start, I don't know Nancy Grace, but even if I did - how does one compare a tv channel with a person?

Channel 4 probably has the best and worst of tv programmes (it has Big Brother). However, it has excellent news programmes and documentaries.

[Results]

I really don't know. For a start, I don't know Nancy Grace, but even if I did - how does one compare a tv channel with a person?

Channel 4 probably has the best and worst of tv programmes (it has Big Brother). However, it has excellent news programmes and documentaries.

LOL If you knew Nancy Grace which I'm surprised being a member since 2003 you have never heard of Nancy Grace but I'll take your word you don't know Nancy Grace. She's a character.

[Jayelles]

LOL If you knew Nancy Grace which I'm surprised being a member since 2003 you have never heard of Nancy Grace but I'll take your word you don't know Nancy Grace. She's a character.

I'm in the UK and I've only posted on the Ramsey forum. I've seen others referring to her, but I've never seen her on tv and I don't know anything about her.

I just want to say that I am wrong about the documentary. The coverage of the "laughable" artist's impression wasn't on Dispatches at all. It's on the SkyNews documentary which aired about a week or so previously. I just checked the skybox and it's approximately 3 minutes into the programme. I don't know if this one is also on YouTube but I would imagine it might be if the Dispatches one is.

[SFAgain]

Some Case Facts & Questions Never Resolved AS Far As I Know

1. Someone at another forum posted that the scent of death trail to the church could be due to people being taken there for funerals.

We never notice any odor when people have been embalmed. Would dogs? They'd also be enclosed in vans and caskets.

2. A scent of death was also found by the cadaver dogs on Kate's and a friend's clothing, possibly from CuddleCat, or, could they have held Maddie?


From what I know the accuracy of "cadavre dogs", (Human Remains Detection, HRD, dogs,) very much depend on time and human remains. The more time that has gone by without any "proper" remains, the less accurate they are at tracking that scent. They are very good at finding a body if it is known to be there, but they can't distiguish one person from another, or a finger from a whole body, it all depend upon how much the remains stinks, so to speak in a given situation and environment. Further more HRD dogs can apparently detect the scent of death from simple nail clippings. One would think that the dog would react differently, react less, to nail clippings, and more to a blood drop, or a finger, or a whole body, which they would probable do under ideal circumstances. But how much does a frustrated dog, who is very much for pleasing his handler, react to something as simple as nail clippings if there isn't any other stronger scent to smell?

I think an understanding of this complication with HRD dogs is valid, since we don't really know if Madeleine is dead or not. If she isn't, then what scent did the dogs track, right?




3. One sketch has been released, the alleged man seen by Jane Tanner. At, I think, CourtTV, people are mentioning other suspects that should be sketched.


The PJ had several witness' describing one or more possible suspects in the first week, yet they refused to air the description/s for fear the possible abductor/s would hurt the child.

I agree one sketch for every witness of a possible suspect.

[SFAgain]

No, I'm sorry they will have to lock me up because if I had a description of my child's abductor its going on every tv show that is available and then when that sighting in the other place there would be a sketch for that one. Your talking about your child. Sketch's get them out there fast. It is fresh from the start a bigger chance in the first 48 hours actually better if in the first 24 hours. No, not six months later. Lock me up the sketch's would be going up as soon as I could get them out there. JMHO

I agree that they should have aired all the info regarding the girl, and the possible looks of the possible suspect right away, but from what I have read is that in Portugal (under normal cicumstances) you actually have to wait 48 hours before claiming someone as missing even if it is a very young child. The PJ actually commended themself for responding so quickly (I guess this is because they responded before 48 hours) in this case ...

[dallasvic]

No, I'm sorry they will have to lock me up because if I had a description of my child's abductor its going on every tv show that is available and then when that sighting in the other place there would be a sketch for that one. Your talking about your child. Sketch's get them out there fast. It is fresh from the start a bigger chance in the first 48 hours actually better if in the first 24 hours. No, not six months later. Lock me up the sketch's would be going up as soon as I could get them out there. JMHO
Hi Results,
Great to see you. Have not seen you in awhile. Missed posting with you :rose: I totally agree with you I would do the same.



Clearly, they should have people like you working for them.

I agree with you for sure on that. If there were more people like Result working for them I am sure Maddie would be home at this moment.


For anyone who may have missed this post in the "News Updates" thread.

http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9027447&postcount=873
Hi Odette,
You are a blessing in disguise. You work so hard to keep us up to date on so many things in CL.
:rose: For~Odette~From~Dallasvic:rose:

[quote=Jayelles;9035045]I really don't know. For a start, I don't know Nancy Grace, but even if I did - how does one compare a tv channel with a person?
Nancy Grace is in the USA. She has a program that keeps us up to date on alot of cases on Court T.V. She use to be a lawyer. She gives her opinion on all the cases she talks about.

[dallasvic]

I agree that they should have aired all the info regarding the girl, and the possible looks of the possible suspect right away, but from what I have read is that in Portugal (under normal cicumstances) you actually have to wait 48 hours before claiming someone as missing even if it is a very young child. The PJ actually commended themself for responding so quickly (I guess this is because they responded before 48 hours) in this case ...

Hi SFA,
That is so stupid. They need to change that law. They could have just said they started before 48 hrs for all we know:shrug:

[wind149]

I have been sorta keeping up with this case but have not posted MOO on here because I got tore a new one on the JBR board. Since all of you have been posting for months about this case and speculating and it seems to me you guys are really in the know here and as the parents have been named suspects, don't you all think at this stage of the game ,they would have released that sketch before TODAY??? One of my god-kids came up missing and somebody thought they saw somebody in the area, we would be flooding the hoods, the state, the media with a composite sketch that DAY! This case, I don't know, the parents to me have been acting weird throughout this and my sister thinks that they wanted to have a quiet dinner so they gave Maddie some cough syrup essentially to knock her out so they could enjoy themselves and when they got back to the room, she was dead? Now they are doctors, surely, if this was the case, wouldn't they know they would be giving her too much? Now this just an opinion nothing more. And explain Maddie's blood in the room. Lots of things don't add up here, and I bet if this happened here, it would already be out there as a murder and the parents did it. Kinda like the Jon Benet case. I still think her mother played a role in her death but I don't think we will ever know the truth there.

[Results]

Hi Results,
Great to see you. Have not seen you in awhile. Missed posting with you :rose: I totally agree with you I would do the same.





I agree with you for sure on that. If there were more people like Result working for them I am sure Maddie would be home at this moment.



Hi Odette,
You are a blessing in disguise. You work so hard to keep us up to date on so many things in CL.
:rose: For~Odette~From~Dallasvic:rose:

[quote=Jayelles;9035045]I really don't know. For a start, I don't know Nancy Grace, but even if I did - how does one compare a tv channel with a person?
Nancy Grace is in the USA. She has a program that keeps us up to date on alot of cases on Court T.V. She use to be a lawyer. She gives her opinion on all the cases she talks about.

Hey Dallasvic!

Good to see you too! As always your too kind! :rose:

[Results]

I have been sorta keeping up with this case but have not posted MOO on here because I got tore a new one on the JBR board. Since all of you have been posting for months about this case and speculating and it seems to me you guys are really in the know here and as the parents have been named suspects, don't you all think at this stage of the game ,they would have released that sketch before TODAY??? One of my god-kids came up missing and somebody thought they saw somebody in the area, we would be flooding the hoods, the state, the media with a composite sketch that DAY! This case, I don't know, the parents to me have been acting weird throughout this and my sister thinks that they wanted to have a quiet dinner so they gave Maddie some cough syrup essentially to knock her out so they could enjoy themselves and when they got back to the room, she was dead? Now they are doctors, surely, if this was the case, wouldn't they know they would be giving her too much? Now this just an opinion nothing more. And explain Maddie's blood in the room. Lots of things don't add up here, and I bet if this happened here, it would already be out there as a murder and the parents did it. Kinda like the Jon Benet case. I still think her mother played a role in her death but I don't think we will ever know the truth there.

LMBO! Tore you a new one????? I encourage you to post, post, post away when ever you feel like it!
:beer:

[dallasvic]

LMBO! Tore you a new one????? I encourage you to post, post, post away when ever you feel like it!
:beer:
ditto

Hi Wind,

I do not believe the parents had anything to do with
Maddie missing. Another thing is the test results showed that the kids had not been given anything.
Maddie's DNA was found in Murat's mothers apartment where he lived and he told police that he was not outside the McCann's flat when everyone was running around looking for Maddie yet he was seen by several people that told police that he was there.
Why did he lie if he had nothing to HIDE ?:shrug:

[wind149]

Oh good, she wasn't given anything, I forget where Sher said she heard that and like I said you all know more than me because at the time of her disappearance I was pretty occupied with the Couey case and pretty much was posting on the other board I was on about that. As for them tearing me out a new one, I brought up the fact that my mother wanted me to be a child model and go become the next Miss NJ and I wanted no part of that so some people thought that the reason I have always looked at Patsy as a suspect is because of my my own childhood with an over zealous parent. I in MOO, posted things that bothered me about the case. The spider web undisturbed on the window. The ransom amount being the same as a bonus JR was to receive, the how is it the police searched the house and it is JR that just so happens to go to the cellar and produce her body? The manner of her death, and the ransom note is written on a tablet found in the home. A true kidnapper would grab his intended victim and bolt. He would not stick around and write the note there. If it was a pedophile he is one of the best out there, to go to a home where he does not, just assuming here, know the floor plan of the house, makes his way to the third floor, grabs JB and drags her to the cellar where he kills her? What if she had woken up? Also, I knew JMK was full of crap, he claimed she was drugged, she wasn't. Apparently I pissed off the ones that think they know the whole case by my opinions and got lambasted for it, not gonna stop me from posting though, got you all's blessing. I am brutally honest and can't see myself being any different on these boards .We all agree to disagree not personally attack someone like the other board I was on. You don't want to go there! We had so many ped lovers, I was beginning to think it was a board just for them, many anti-death penalty militants, no talking to them there. I was glad I got on these boards till I posted on the JB and got attacked. So I have avoided it. As for Maddie, I hope this case does not turn out her parents were responsible. I just think it is strange they wait till today to release a sketch, should they have not done this sooner than later? What if she is being held and being abused in every horrible way and somebody also might have seen this man and could possibly know him and today the sketch comes out, somebody remembers hey, that looks like Guido and Guido is in the wind?

[docwho3]

Is this the Swiss guy who committed suicide? He certainly seemed like a good suspect having been linked to another little blonde girl's murder and having been in the Algarve at the same time as the McCanns.

We haven't heard any more about him.. . .
To refresh your memory, a partial copy-N-paste frm my file:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."


". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.
***********

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original links to the online articles (but not the comments or excerpts) were posted first by colomom on another forum and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.
*****************
Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc

This Von Aesch man lived in spain awhile.

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. . ."

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert


. . .The sniffer dog "alerts" information come from the Spanish tabloids - not from any official source. I remember in the vanDam case that there were leaks about the cadaver dogs but when it came to the trial, the truth wasn't quite the same story. Good point. Thanks for mentioning that.

[odette]

Hey Odette:

Good to see you. Thanks for all the updates on this thread. Very interesting!

Hey Results :seeya:

Good to see you posting here on Maddie's Forum. :)

[Seashell]

I have been sorta keeping up with this case but have not posted MOO on here because I got tore a new one on the JBR board. Since all of you have been posting for months about this case and speculating and it seems to me you guys are really in the know here and as the parents have been named suspects, don't you all think at this stage of the game ,they would have released that sketch before TODAY??? One of my god-kids came up missing and somebody thought they saw somebody in the area, we would be flooding the hoods, the state, the media with a composite sketch that DAY! This case, I don't know, the parents to me have been acting weird throughout this and my sister thinks that they wanted to have a quiet dinner so they gave Maddie some cough syrup essentially to knock her out so they could enjoy themselves and when they got back to the room, she was dead? Now they are doctors, surely, if this was the case, wouldn't they know they would be giving her too much? Now this just an opinion nothing more. And explain Maddie's blood in the room. Lots of things don't add up here, and I bet if this happened here, it would already be out there as a murder and the parents did it. Kinda like the Jon Benet case. I still think her mother played a role in her death but I don't think we will ever know the truth there.


I agree totaly with your points about the case, people who are standing by the side of the parents have forgotten somewhere along the days that the real VICTIM is Maddy :rose:

I dont friggin care wether the parents are found innocent at the end of this horrible case, i and many others want answers and every single person on that night investigated as well as drilled till someone cracks with the TRUTH.
my 2 cents worth.

[SFAgain]

I agree totaly with your points about the case, people who are standing by the side of the parents have forgotten somewhere along the days that the real VICTIM is Maddy :rose:


I don't know how many times I've read the same type of statement, but it is still intersting, since (how I read most of the stuff) the only thing the parents, and the people who beleive the parents are innocent, only seem to be interested in debunking all the BS, so the focus can, _actually_ , get back to Madeleine. (At least in the selective forum.)

[SFAgain]

I dont friggin care wether the parents are found innocent at the end of this horrible case, i and many others want answers and every single person on that night investigated as well as drilled till someone cracks with the TRUTH.
my 2 cents worth.

I know this is the general consensus for most people because it is a long shot, but even if the disappearance of a child (when the parents are not involved) is very very uncommon, it actually does happen at least once to twice every week in the US, and at least once every week in the UK, going by statistics. Maybe you'd be suprised how many non-successful abductions there are per week from actual strangers ... in US there are about 10 to 1, ten failures to one success, and it is about the same, but a bit more, for UK, since UK has more successful stranger abductions, then US, per capita. (As far as I have understood the numbers.)

It is not very common, but it does happen every month.

[Eagle1]

...............
I think an understanding of this complication with HRD dogs is valid, since we don't really know if Madeleine is dead or not. If she isn't, then what scent did the dogs track, right?
..................
I agree one sketch for every witness of a possible suspect.

Yes, I'm trying to imagine what they could have smelled, probably NOT people in caskets. But what?

Also, have they well-checked the ashes at that pet crematorium which neighbors (suddenly, one time, since Maddie's disappearance and the parents defying police to "find a body and prove we did it???) had been shut down? If the kidnappers did use it, probably by now they've been back and removed most of the ashes?

Let's hope they don't forget to thoroughly check those ashes!!! The owner has gone to court to try to reopen it and may already be back in business.

[Eagle1]

To refresh your memory, a partial copy-N-paste frm my file:
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Here is another strange twilightzone twist to this case:
". . . The body of a missing five-year-old girl whose abduction was linked by police to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann has been discovered in a forest in Switzerland. . ."


". . . It was uncovered by a passer-by between Oberbren and Niederwil on Saturday. It had apparently been dug up by wild animals. Von Aesch is thought to have shot a man who challenged him shortly after he buried the body, then turned the gun on himself. Police later discovered he had been on holiday in the Algarve when Madeleine disappeared in May. . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19495/Body-of-girl-5-found

Note: I added the bolding in the quote.
***********

". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original links to the online articles (but not the comments or excerpts) were posted first by colomom on another forum and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.
*****************
Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

". . .Swiss authorities have also been in touch with police investigating the case of Briton four-year-old Madeleine McCann, who disappeared in May while on holiday with her family in a Portuguese resort . . ."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070915/ts_nm/swiss_missing_dc
...........

Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. . ."

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert


Good point. Thanks for mentioning that.

Thanks to Results for the reminder. Yes, I certainly had been forgetting to check Odette the last few days.

Accomplice, probably, and more than one, judging by how many persons of interest have been noticed, including a man hiding in a stairwell as evidently a lookout, right, everyone?

About the Mirror, I'm in the U.S., so I'm not familiar with any of the British papers Jayelles had assumed I was reading, but we do get a lot of news from the Mirror forum, no hold barred. A day or two ago we feared it had been removed, possible a lawsuit threatened, someone besides myself unable to find it, but it was back last night. We're big boys and girls and we can take it, whatever, or we wouldn't be here, right?

The little 5 yr old Swiss girl I believe had been skateboarding or something like that, wearing a helmet and all the usual, strayed too far from her folks and was grabbed. Yes, it does sound like the McCanns were being watched. If the van had been there ten days, they really had not been there that long, right? Were the kidnappers watching another family there first?

Would any of our mothers jump into this and tell the public she WANTS, I believe was the word, correct me if I'm wrong, people to stop making Kate feel a certain way? My mother told us when we started school about 60 yrs ago, well almost, if we got a spanking at school we'd get another at home. She was a sbustitute teacher and would hear about it.

Bet Kate's mother didn't have that "tough-love" discipline attitude. Could that be a factor in why "she doesn't cry"? And then, lo and behold, some wiping of the eyes. Was there really sparkling wetness there? I didn't see the video. Just asking, w/out any prejudice. I have nothing invested either pro or con, just hope this is solved.

[Eagle1]

If it's at all true that Von Aesch's white van had been parked in front of the McCanns' holiday quarters for as long as 10 days, doesn't that suggest some other family was being watched before the McCanns came there, or, that he knew somehow they would be coming along?

How long had the McCanns been there when Maddie disappeared, anyone know?

I'm sure the reports mean off and on for 10 days or whatever period of time it was actually there. Surely the driver would have gone someplace to eat and like that. They actually have the licence plate number, right? It was definitely Von Aesch's? And I read somewhere that the recovered person who apparently challenged him, was shot by a DIFFERENT GUN than Von Aesch's. So he was actually no help about Von Aesch. Had been in critical condition, I thought I read, and they were anxiously hoping to be able to question him. But he seemed to recover and get discharged pretty fast.

[cat840]

Maybe you'd be suprised how many non-successful abductions there are per week from actual strangers ... in US there are about 10 to 1, ten failures to one success, and it is about the same, but a bit more, for UK, since UK has more successful stranger abductions, then US, per capita. (As far as I have understood the numbers.)

It is not very common, but it does happen every month.

Interesting stats SF. Could you please provide a source.

[andU]

Eagle, you and I agree about some things; but we don't agree about Maddie's parents. They have to try to provide some type of normalcy for the twins lives, don't they? They can't just walk away from their obligations to them. It is so similar to the Ramsey case, the McCanns can't do anything right, people will be damning them no matter what they do. So, I will agree to disagree with you and call it that. Christians don't point fingers, Eagle, they forgive and support each other --- especially those who are not Christians, yet.

[Eagle1]

..............

Christians don't point fingers, Eagle, they forgive and support each other --- especially those who are not Christians, yet.

Scriptures don't authorize us to meddle in LE's business and "forgive" their suspects! Adding to the Word is condemned, last chapter of the last book of the Bible. We just cannot do it. Never heard of such an idea.

I have just been passing on some of the very interesting questions I find at other forums for our information, and have said repeatedly I"ll be as happy as anyone if the case is definitely solved and they're possibly cleared. I want to know the whole truth, and I have a perfect right to feel like that, unbiased.

Just haven't seen anything so far, if I haven't posted it, that tends to clear them except, everyone here's my witness, I have joined in re other suspects, such as Von Aesch, with DocWho3 and whoever else was discussing it.

Christians are supposed to be neutral, imo, not accusing fellow posters, which is also against the rules at most forums including this one.

That little girl is precious to me. I want the perp caught, no matter who it is. There's nothing in the Christians' Rule Book which this contradicts.

What are you going to do if they are proven guilty? Call everyone dishonest but them? I just read somewhere that LE have as evidence a cell phone call from Kate telling Gerry "They've taken her." Don't know yet if it's true. It'll probably be months before they're caught up acting on everything. A poster asked, Why did Kate still run back to the bar, leaving the twins unguarded, to shout "They've taken her"?

Who are we to claim to know, one way or the other? Judge not, either way, "Judge nothing before the time." Merely presenting or mentioning alleged evidence is not judging. Even the cops aren't judges. They wait for a jury to do that.

These suspects are nominal Christians, tho' Kate's mother said none of them have ever been very devout. We don't have to worry about us personally trying to convert them, but many prisoners, if it comes to that, "find God" in prisons. Can't say if it's sometimes genuine or not.
I haven't studied any stats, don't know if any have ever gotten out of prison that way.

Just answering your statements addressed to me, nothing personal. Fine if you don't want to agree. We all have that right. I just would think Christians' allegiance should be to the innocent and helpless little child.

[Eagle1]

Gerry and one of the other guys say they were themselves on the narrow path that Tanner said she was on, couldn't have missed her, but did not see her.

What do you think, gang? Did she or they forget which path she was on?

Wouldn't you think Gerry would be glad to hear of her testimony if they want off the hook, instead of trying to make a liar of her? There were probably other foot paths galore, correct?

Sorry if I've been a little negligent for a couple of days or so. Sitting hunched over to see the screen gets my spine out of whack, hard to stand up afterwards and start walking. Plus other distractions in my life.

[Eagle1]

.........................................

I think an understanding of this complication with HRD dogs is valid, since we don't really know if Madeleine is dead or not. If she isn't, then what scent did the dogs track, right?........................

The PJ had several witness' describing one or more possible suspects in the first week, yet they refused to air the description/s for fear the possible abductor/s would hurt the child..............


If Maddie isn't dead, "then what scent did the dogs track, right?"
Right. That is the question. I can't think of anything, but then I'm not an LE person.

Someone at another forum speculated that someone may have disposed of the body in an acid bath. Wouldn't you think that would also destroy the pipes and the finish on the tub, maybe the whole tub? And they said the fumes would be awful.

If the body's been destroyed, I'd think someone may have known about that pet incinerator 20 miles away. Especially since neighbors complained, evidently recent, since Maddie's disappearance, of the odor.
Why am I apparently the only one noticing this? Would human remains have a stronger odor than pets??? Anyone know if they've checked those ashes, at least a sample of them, before it's too late and they may let the man open it again? Everyone's my witness that I've never said the parents did that. How would I know who did it, or if anyone did? Thanks for not putting words in my mouth. Any ideas on the ashes question as well as the trail the dogs detected, anyone?

[andU]

Scriptures don't authorize us to meddle in LE's business and "forgive" their suspects! Adding to the Word is condemned, last chapter of the last book of the Bible. We just cannot do it. Never heard of such an idea.

I have just been passing on some of the very interesting questions I find at other forums for our information, and have said repeatedly I"ll be as happy as anyone if the case is definitely solved and they're possibly cleared. I want to know the whole truth, and I have a perfect right to feel like that, unbiased.

Just haven't seen anything so far, if I haven't posted it, that tends to clear them except, everyone here's my witness, I have joined in re other suspects, such as Von Aesch, with DocWho3 and whoever else was discussing it.

Christians are supposed to be neutral, imo, not accusing fellow posters, which is also against the rules at most forums including this one.

That little girl is precious to me. I want the perp caught, no matter who it is. There's nothing in the Christians' Rule Book which this contradicts.

What are you going to do if they are proven guilty? Call everyone dishonest but them? I just read somewhere that LE have as evidence a cell phone call from Kate telling Gerry "They've taken her." Don't know yet if it's true. It'll probably be months before they're caught up acting on everything. A poster asked, Why did Kate still run back to the bar, leaving the twins unguarded, to shout "They've taken her"?

Who are we to claim to know, one way or the other? Judge not, either way, "Judge nothing before the time." Merely presenting or mentioning alleged evidence is not judging. Even the cops aren't judges. They wait for a jury to do that.

These suspects are nominal Christians, tho' Kate's mother said none of them have ever been very devout. We don't have to worry about us personally trying to convert them, but many prisoners, if it comes to that, "find God" in prisons. Can't say if it's sometimes genuine or not.
I haven't studied any stats, don't know if any have ever gotten out of prison that way.

Just answering your statements addressed to me, nothing personal. Fine if you don't want to agree. We all have that right. I just would think Christians' allegiance should be to the innocent and helpless little child.

As I said, we need to agree to disagree. I refuse to argue with you or anyone else. We each have our opinions and our understanding of what is being reported. I won't read junk; if it isn't reported as fact, I won't bother - and how in the world can we assume that anything being printed is fact in this case? It is about the child, not who is right or wrong. Nothing more from me, Eagle.

[Eagle1]

[QUOTE=docwho3;9035499]

***********". . .A white van with Spanish number plates matching the description of Von Aesch's was seen parked for several days in front of the McCann's apartment. The van was not seen again after Madeleine disappeared. . ."

This about the white van is a new fact I had not heard before in the Madeleine case!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urs_Hans_Von_Aesch

Both girls were blond haired!
http://is.blick.ch/img/gen/g/P/HBgPH5PA_Pxgen_r_180xA.jpg

pic from this article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.blick.ch/news/schweiz/artikel68560&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=5&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DUrs%2BHans%2BVon%2BAesch%26num%3D20%2 6hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

The alleged killer of the 5 years old little blond girl looks like:
http://www.droitfondamental.eu/06-Ylena_urs_hans_von_aesch-2.png

I wonder how close is that description to the person seen in the mccann case.

Note: The above original links to the online articles (but not the comments or excerpts) were posted first by colomom on another forum and so colomom deserves the credit for the finds. Thanks.
*****************
Sat Sep 15/2007
". . . Police believe Von Aesch committed suicide, after shooting another man, who survived. . ."

............Also I see this paragraph - probably what you have already seen:
". . . Witnesses have said a man matching Von Aesch’s description had been seen watching the little girl’s home and movements for at least 10 days. . ."

"Detectives in Portugal are working on the theory Madeleine’s abductors could have been spying on the family for several days, observing their daily routine. . ."

". . . .Madeleine’s parents have admitted they left their children alone every night for a week before their daughter was snatched.

Yesterday the Daily Express told how detectives believe Madeleine’s kidnapper was working with an accomplice.

Police have been covertly tailing and videoing the suspect who is believed to match the description of a man seen carrying a child wrapped in a blanket shortly after Madeleine disappeared . . ."
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/15806/Madeleine-lookalike-snatched-by-pervert.....................[QUOTE]


10 Days AT LEAST, and the McCanns had been there only a week. Why the extra 3 days, and was Von Aesch possibly suicided by a gang, like Helgoth in the Ramsey case, for carelessly letting his van be observed at the scene of Maddie's kidnapping? The man who was shot but recovered said he was shot with a DIFFERENT GUN from the one that killed Von Aesch. (I've forgotten the source, sorry, it's been so long.)

Do gangs maybe watch the Reservations list at these resorts, or have an employee watching the lists, who tips them off? Or the friends, who were in Greece before Portugal, w/out the McCanns, knew someone, unknowingly let the information slip? Have the neighbors who complained (for the first time?) about the pet crematorium odor been asked if they ever saw a white van parked in the area? Maybe the crematorium isn't in a conspicuous place, behind a house or something like that.

Cell phone call from Kate to Gerry and the group? You'd think they would have all come running and Kate wouldn't have run back to the bar. Were they all too drunk or did they not even have cell phones? She left the twins there, so kidnappers could have come back and taken them too.

[LindaA]

Originally posted by Eagle1 "I'm suspecting someone these parents knew may be the mastermind in this crime, if they would just make a list, do some thinking in that direction, which would also be their best defense. John Walsh, just one example, made enough efforts that nobody would suspect him."

That's just what the Ramseys did, and they are still being criticised for "throwing their friends under the bus."

[Eagle1]

Originally posted by Eagle1 "I'm suspecting someone these parents knew may be the mastermind in this crime, if they would just make a list, do some thinking in that direction, which would also be their best defense. John Walsh, just one example, made enough efforts that nobody would suspect him."

That's just what the Ramseys did, and they are still being criticised for "throwing their friends under the bus."

Hi, LindaA,

I know, but I meant a general list, not just their friends.

Now I've moved on to why the white van was there for 10 days or more, and forgot to say this,

Might Von Aesch and Murat be in the same "ring" of some kind? They found child porn, I believe, on Murat's computer. Von Aesch may have been sleeping in the van, but he'd have had to go someplace for eating and all. Always came back to the same parking spot? It never occurred to him this might be noticed? Was he maybe involved with some employee, and/or Murat, and who knows who else?

Somebody in the "ring", if there was one, may have suicided him for being so careless, I'm thinking, this moment, may move on to something else. My reason for thinking that Von Aesch may have been suicided like Helgoth in the Ramsey case if that the other shot person near that forrest said after his recovery and release from the hospital that he was shot with a DIFFERENT GUN than the one that killed Von Aesch.

People are asking why there are no pictures of Kate playing with the children. Maybe she's just the only one who liked to take pictures, was always behind the camera. This is not making excuses for her alleged addiction to the bar scene, of course, just being fair and giving what little I know of both sides. There's a picture of Maddie and her b.d. cake when she was two, but it'd be interesting to see some baby pictures also, wouldn't it? She has/had the most gorgeous eyes!

Thanks for the reply.

[Seashell]

Eagle its interesting what you have posted, that also could be a possibilty.

[Eagle1]

Eagle its interesting what you have posted, that also could be a possibilty.

Thanks for the comment, and did you ever post about the priest? I've been looking for it. Editing to say "Oh, It'd be in Too Many Loopholes". I was looking for "Discrepancies" which is in the JBR forum.

I didn't know the Catholic church objects to Invitro Fertilization and that the priest would be turned off when he found out they used it? Was that the only reason he eventually felt he'd been deceived and used, that and their stopping their visits when they were made aguido's? I'm obviously a tad vague about that aspect of the case. We're not Catholics but one year one of my sons found a cross necklace that had been given to me somewhere and was a priest for Halloween. I thought that was a pretty unusual, original idea.

[Seashell]

Thanks for the comment, and did you ever post about the priest? I've been looking for it. Editing to say "Oh, It'd be in Too Many Loopholes". I was looking for "Discrepancies" which is in the JBR forum.

I didn't know the Catholic church objects to Invitro Fertilization and that the priest would be turned off when he found out they used it? Was that the only reason he eventually felt he'd been deceived and used, that and their stopping their visits when they were made aguido's? I'm obviously a tad vague about that aspect of the case. We're not Catholics but one year one of my sons found a cross necklace that had been given to me somewhere and was a priest for Halloween. I thought that was a pretty unusual, original idea.

am going to post it thanks for reminder! ;)

[Eagle1]

What could people have said to the child whenever Maddie's been sighted, before she's as usual whisked away?

For instance, I know someone can think of something better than this, but something like "We're going to get you back, Maddie"? Say her name along with the reassurance I'm sure she desperately needs, and see if she reacts?

Maybe the newspapers would suggest something? Just seeing her and not saying anything to her that she needs to hear is a lot of wasted opportunity, don't you think? Shouldn't we get prepared for the next time? She's usually with a woman.

Is it always the same woman?

A little American girl has just been found in Morocco, I believe. I don't know her name, don't think it was mentioned where I was reading.

[Seashell]

What could people have said to the child whenever Maddie's been sighted, before she's as usual whisked away?

For instance, I know someone can think of something better than this, but something like "We're going to get you back, Maddie"? Say her name along with the reassurance I'm sure she desperately needs, and see if she reacts?

Maybe the newspapers would suggest something? Just seeing her and not saying anything to her that she needs to hear is a lot of wasted opportunity, don't you think? Shouldn't we get prepared for the next time? She's usually with a woman.

Is it always the same woman?

A little American girl has just been found in Morocco, I believe. I don't know her name, don't think it was mentioned where I was reading.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490468&in_page_id=1770

[andU]

What could people have said to the child whenever Maddie's been sighted, before she's as usual whisked away?

For instance, I know someone can think of something better than this, but something like "We're going to get you back, Maddie"? Say her name along with the reassurance I'm sure she desperately needs, and see if she reacts?

Maybe the newspapers would suggest something? Just seeing her and not saying anything to her that she needs to hear is a lot of wasted opportunity, don't you think? Shouldn't we get prepared for the next time? She's usually with a woman.

Is it always the same woman?

A little American girl has just been found in Morocco, I believe. I don't know her name, don't think it was mentioned where I was reading.

But, if it isn't authorities, and a person says her name, it could put her in danger. It depends on how badly these people that have her wish to keep her. It could also cause them to be on the move with her, maybe go underground. I don't think anyone should say anything to her, just notify the authorities and/or her parents.

[One2Snoop]

Just checking in to see if there's any new news on Maddie. I sure wish this nightmare would end for both Maddie and her parents.

:rose: :rose: :rose:

[Eagle1]

But, if it isn't authorities, and a person says her name, it could put her in danger. It depends on how badly these people that have her wish to keep her. It could also cause them to be on the move with her, maybe go underground. I don't think anyone should say anything to her, just notify the authorities and/or her parents.

I thought of that and wanted to see if anyone else would think it's true enough to mention. If not, I promise I was going to bring it up this morning.

Surely the agencies for missing children, and Interpol and whatever else, could give the public some kind of instructions.

One suggestion might be to carry a cell phone, which most do anyway, if they own one, and most have cameras. (People, I haven't gotten around to reading instructions how to use the camera on mine. Any simple instructions in case any of us ever feel we're seeing a crime?)

Seashell's link, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490468&in_page_id=1770 is a good one. I'd printed it out and this time reading it again, found some points I'd like to mention
1) The woman seems to be English-speaking,
2) Metodo 3's boss believes she was abducted to order,
3) Sightings, by 10 different people, are in a wide area but always within confines of the Rif mountains, in Morocco. Last town right on the coast.
4) Description matches except the hair is shorter.

My own comment, a guess, the gang, if that's really Maddie, have some "safe houses" in several different towns, so they can keep her on the move, assuming they can better keep ahead of any searchers.

Hopefully there's been a chart map made of places she's been seen.
That's probably routine.

Personally, I'm discounting the DNA news, which doesn't seem to be what they've been telling us. There's no real reason they 'd be railroading the McCanns, any more than for the Ramseys. LE thought focused on them at first too. And in fairness we have to admit the things the McCanns were saying really did raise suspicions even with the general public. They're still not off the hook until Maddie's rescued.

Question is, how could they let Maddie know people are looking for her and will keep it up, without provoking those who have her to maybe kill her? Calling all brains. Have at it, please. Maddie doesn't hear news reports, probably, and doesn't know people are looking for her, right?

[andU]

I am sure praying for the young female doctor in Spain that intends to go back to Morroco (sp?) to find Maddie! Even though she has received death threats, she is going to help find Maddie.

[andU]

I thought of that and wanted to see if anyone else would think it's true enough to mention. If not, I promise I was going to bring it up this morning.

Surely the agencies for missing children, and Interpol and whatever else, could give the public some kind of instructions.

One suggestion might be to carry a cell phone, which most do anyway, if they own one, and most have cameras. (People, I haven't gotten around to reading instructions how to use the camera on mine. Any simple instructions in case any of us ever feel we're seeing a crime?)

Seashell's link, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=490468&in_page_id=1770 is a good one. I'd printed it out and this time reading it again, found some points I'd like to mention
1) The woman seems to be English-speaking,
2) Metodo 3's boss believes she was abducted to order,
3) Sightings, by 10 different people, are in a wide area but always within confines of the Rif mountains, in Morocco. Last town right on the coast.
4) Description matches except the hair is shorter.

My own comment, a guess, the gang, if that's really Maddie, have some "safe houses" in several different towns, so they can keep her on the move, assuming they can better keep ahead of any searchers.

Hopefully there's been a chart map made of places she's been seen.
That's probably routine.

Personally, I'm discounting the DNA news, which doesn't seem to be what they've been telling us. There's no real reason they 'd be railroading the McCanns, any more than for the Ramseys. LE thought focused on them at first too. And in fairness we have to admit the things the McCanns were saying really did raise suspicions even with the general public. They're still not off the hook until Maddie's rescued.

Question is, how could they let Maddie know people are looking for her and will keep it up, without provoking those who have her to maybe kill her? Calling all brains. Have at it, please. Maddie doesn't hear news reports, probably, and doesn't know people are looking for her, right?
If you'll look at Odette's last post, she has a link to a newspaper that has a map of the most recent sightings.

[Eagle1]

I heard on Fox news yesterday afternoon, the McCanns really are submitting a list, but I think it's just people to be re-questionned.

I was hoping they would come up with the names of a few people they had maybe not seen or heard from in a while, or some that could for some reason have something against them.

Van Aesch's white van parked there, allgedly, for 10 days before the disappearance says SOMETHING, but what, exactly? The McC's had only been there a week. Was their apartment the only one being watched, and who outside of their group had known in advance about this vacation? Re-questionning the suspects is probably routine anyway w/out their making a list.

There may be someone else they know who's being overlooked.

[FDInLaw]

Just checking in to see if there's any new news on Maddie. I sure wish this nightmare would end for both Maddie and her parents.

:rose: :rose: :rose:
Just checking in too. . . someone come find me if there is a break in this case! :patriot:

[Elfinrow]

This weekend I received an email from the Galveston TX paper saying that little baby grace was ruled out as Madeleine McCann. Then today I received a new email stating that they are making sure it isn't her. DNA testing dental testing etc. Conflicting stories to be sure, I hope also that one day little Madeleine is found, alive. I do not however believe anything other than child abuse happened in this case. Possibly an unfortunate accident but based on Kates diary entries I am still almost convinced she struck out in anger and hurt her child on May3 2007.

http://news.galvestondailynews.com/story.lasso?ewcd=30699addac27caf5

[dallasvic]

Just checking in too. . . someone come find me if there is a break in this case! :patriot:

I will pm you if there is for sure OK ??

[dallasvic]

Hey Results :seeya:

Good to see you posting here on Maddie's Forum. :)

DITTO and to you also Odette LOL:seeya:

[dallasvic]

I am sure praying for the young female doctor in Spain that intends to go back to Morroco (sp?) to find Maddie! Even though she has received death threats, she is going to help find Maddie.


Hi andU,
Great Post !!! I am with you on this for sure. Your a great poster:patriot:

[dallasvic]

Hi Everyone,

I still believe its Murat and to many things point to him !!!:shrug:

[dallasvic]

:rose: Maddie~And~ Family:rose:
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05/madeleine_175x125.jpg

Madeleine: missing for six months now
THE TRUE VICTIM HERE
:rose: MY HEART & PRAYERS ARE WITH ALL:rose:

[DRF2000]

:rose: Maddie~And~ Family:rose:
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05/madeleine_175x125.jpg

Madeleine: missing for six months now
THE TRUE VICTIM HERE
:rose: MY HEART & PRAYERS ARE WITH ALL:rose:


:rose:

I just have to say that I pray every day for the safe return of this precious child.
God bless little Maddie.

DRF2000

[dallasvic]

:rose:

I just have to say that I pray every day for the safe return of this precious child.
God bless little Maddie.

DRF2000


You are a Excellent poster and I look forward to posting with you:seeya:

[dallasvic]

:rose:

I just have to say that I pray every day for the safe return of this precious child.
God bless little Maddie.

DRF2000
WELCOME TO CL.
Please come to the lounge and meet some GREAT people and if you need anything or have any quesstion feel free to pm me anytime :seeya:
Your Friend Dallasvic

[andU]

:rose:

I just have to say that I pray every day for the safe return of this precious child.
God bless little Maddie.

DRF2000

DRF... WELCOME to the board! :patriot:

[SFAgain]

Yes, I'm trying to imagine what they could have smelled, probably NOT people in caskets. But what?

Also, have they well-checked the ashes at that pet crematorium which neighbors (suddenly, one time, since Maddie's disappearance and the parents defying police to "find a body and prove we did it???) had been shut down? If the kidnappers did use it, probably by now they've been back and removed most of the ashes?

Let's hope they don't forget to thoroughly check those ashes!!! The owner has gone to court to try to reopen it and may already be back in business.

Well, people in casket usually do have the whole nine yards of formaldahyde to them. I do think, in this day and age, that cadavre dog units are well trained enough to smell the difference. From what I have learned from HRD dogs is that the most important thing the dog learns seems to be how, or rather how much, it should react in relation to how strong the smell is. And of course, never to forget, the handlers knowledge of how to interpret a specific dog's reaction.

Of course they should check the crematorium, but only because they unearthed it. Personally I think that is a stretch though. A person wouldn't go from bombmaking to burning childrens remains just like that.

[SFAgain]

Interesting stats SF. Could you please provide a source.

Home Office in Britain, and Bureau of justice statistics in US (or FBI.)

[SFAgain]

If Maddie isn't dead, "then what scent did the dogs track, right?"
Right. That is the question. I can't think of anything, but then I'm not an LE person.

Someone at another forum speculated that someone may have disposed of the body in an acid bath. Wouldn't you think that would also destroy the pipes and the finish on the tub, maybe the whole tub? And they said the fumes would be awful.

Well, there's acid, and then there's acid. If the acid isn't "strong" enough, like strong pipe cleaning stuff, it would only depend on time, to do away with remains, from my understanding. Of course the "pipes" would show traces of such an amount and time. The tub itself would most likely be very very bleached.


If the body's been destroyed, I'd think someone may have known about that pet incinerator 20 miles away. Especially since neighbors complained, evidently recent, since Maddie's disappearance, of the odor.
Why am I apparently the only one noticing this? Would human remains have a stronger odor than pets??? Anyone know if they've checked those ashes, at least a sample of them, before it's too late and they may let the man open it again? Everyone's my witness that I've never said the parents did that. How would I know who did it, or if anyone did? Thanks for not putting words in my mouth. Any ideas on the ashes question as well as the trail the dogs detected, anyone?

Apparently the owner and operator of that animal crimatorium had closed it down, and not used it after he closed it down, well before Madeleine dissapeared. And since the police hasn't made him an arguido, I guess the assessment that he has nothing to do with this case is correct, he probably just is one of those morbid variables that always seem to pop up in every type of case.

[dallasvic]

:rose:

I just have to say that I pray every day for the safe return of this precious child.
God bless little Maddie.

DRF2000

Hi DRF2000,

You are going to be a GREAT asset to CL. I feel it in my HEART:rose:

[sieg66]

I was thinking : i've been vacationing with two female friends and our three daughters.As we sat at diner every evening we left the baby in our room,and took the two elder children with us.We had a babyphone ( is that how you spell it in english?) with us so we could hear what was going on in the room.The staff of the hotel knew we had a baby with us and also saw us at diner every night so they knew the baby was left in the room.How well was the staff of the hotel at praia de luz investigated? It figures that someone knew that there was a child to get in this room....

[andU]

I was thinking : i've been vacationing with two female friends and our three daughters.As we sat at diner every evening we left the baby in our room,and took the two elder children with us.We had a babyphone ( is that how you spell it in english?) with us so we could hear what was going on in the room.The staff of the hotel knew we had a baby with us and also saw us at diner every night so they knew the baby was left in the room.How well was the staff of the hotel at praia de luz investigated? It figures that someone knew that there was a child to get in this room....

Very good point; especially as I recall there was a maid that had been fired just prior to the McCanns coming to the hotel or while they were there. Can anyone add to this? I'm sure the staff was interviewed; but the first officer in charge of the case had already made up his mind that the parents did it, IMO.

[sharlock]

Very good point; especially as I recall there was a maid that had been fired just prior to the McCanns coming to the hotel or while they were there. Can anyone add to this? I'm sure the staff was interviewed; but the first officer in charge of the case had already made up his mind that the parents did it, IMO.
I beleive the police interviewed current staff before receiving that tip off, and the tip off that was sent by email to Prince Charles suggested that the guilty party involved was a prior disgruntled staff member (female) who was at the resort when Maddie went missing. The police said they would investigate this but who knows because the cheif in charge at the time beleived that the McCanns were responsible for a lot of the tips which he considered misinformation as he had firmly set his mind on the McCanns as the guilty party at the time so it is possible that it wasn't even checked out even though the email was shown to have come from Portugal. I hope they did check it out thoroughly and that I am wrong in thinking that they may not have though.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22510021-2,00.html?from=mostpop

[Eagle1]

I beleive the police interviewed current staff before receiving that tip off, and the tip off that was sent by email to Prince Charles suggested that the guilty party involved was a prior disgruntled staff member (female) who was at the resort when Maddie went missing. ...............
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22510021-2,00.html?from=mostpop

Could have been a fired employee, obviously, plus, as DocWho3 posted earlier somewhere in this thread, the suicided Von Aesch who'd killed a little Swedish girl had been parking his white van in front of the McCanns' resort lodging for 10 days! They'd only been there a week. Wish we knew if there was a child there previously that he was waiting for an opportunity to grab, which opportunity never came.

Von Aesch and the maid in cahoots? Maybe. Anything's possible. There seems to have been several people, including a "lookout" man seen hiding in a stairwell. Sorry, I don't remember who saw him. Maybe it's in Odette's Updates.

BTW, I like your Statement. Love certainly is required, love for the child who's been allegedly sighted so many times crying, going to ruin her health, I'm afraid, or get killed, and "tough love" for whoever's responsible, wherever the chips fall.

I'm having a hard time finding DocWho's post about Von Aesch. Maybe he remembers what page it's on. Isn't that worthy of its own thread so we can always find it?

[andU]

I beleive the police interviewed current staff before receiving that tip off, and the tip off that was sent by email to Prince Charles suggested that the guilty party involved was a prior disgruntled staff member (female) who was at the resort when Maddie went missing. The police said they would investigate this but who knows because the cheif in charge at the time beleived that the McCanns were responsible for a lot of the tips which he considered misinformation as he had firmly set his mind on the McCanns as the guilty party at the time so it is possible that it wasn't even checked out even though the email was shown to have come from Portugal. I hope they did check it out thoroughly and that I am wrong in thinking that they may not have though.
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22510021-2,00.html?from=mostpop

Yes, you are right, thank you! I believe the staff person in question was a 'child care worker', is that right?

[andU]

"BUNGLING Portuguese detectives used Robert Murat to translate witness testimonies of the McCanns’ friends – despite having him under surveillance as a potential suspect.

In yet another astonishing police gaffe, the 33-year-old British expat continued to work for the force even though they were about to haul him in for questioning, it was revealed last night. — continued

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/...f-the-Tapas-9-"

This is just unbelievable! What a mess! :( :confused:

[Bluefox]

The Portuguese police conducted a "flawed" investigation into Madeleine McCann's disappearance, according to a British MEP
"The Portuguese police and judicial system is known to be suspect," says a letter from the office of Roger Knapman.

The letter from the MEP for the South West of England added: "The original police investigation was amateurish and flawed.

"It is important to realise that Portugal has no real history of citizen's rights and liberties or democracy."
The letter was written on Mr Knapman's behalf, in reply to a woman who lobbied several MEPs complaining of the damage the case was doing to UK-Portugal relations.

The woman accused the British Government and Gordon Brown of using political pressure to allow the McCanns to "avoid the consequences of Portugal's legal system".

The MEP's letter says it is absurd to suggest the Prime Minister is involved in a cover-up
It points out that Portugal became a democracy only 30 years ago. "Many of the police were trained under fascism and the institutions still bear the impact of this long period of dictatorship."

It adds: "In all the circumstances it is entirely right that British citizens should be protected against an unreliable foreign system
"In any event I think you can rest assured that the British police and intelligence services have long had a better grip on the facts of this case than the Portuguese police."

The letter was written by Piers Merchant, a former Tory MP who was forced to quit after his affair with a 17-year-old was exposed by The Sun. He now works as an assistant to Mr Knapman at the UK Independence Party.

When Sky News' crime correspondent Martin Brunt asked Mr Knapman about the letter, he said: "It sounds fair enough. Piers has very carefully investigated this matter and responded on my behalf."


http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1292675,00.html

[Eagle1]

Well, people in casket usually do have the whole nine yards of formaldahyde to them. I do think, in this day and age, that cadavre dog units are well trained enough to smell the difference. From what I have learned from HRD dogs is that the most important thing the dog learns seems to be how, or rather how much, it should react in relation to how strong the smell is. And of course, never to forget, the handlers knowledge of how to interpret a specific dog's reaction.

Of course they should check the crematorium, but only because they unearthed it. Personally I think that is a stretch though. A person wouldn't go from bombmaking to burning childrens remains just like that.

Thanks for still thinking about this. I must have skipped over the part about bombmaking during the war, sorry, was only thinking about this being a PET crematorium they unearthed and therefore should very thoroughly check, imo. Can't imagine why somebody would start a pet crematorium right in the neighborhood, come to think of it. That is odd, isn't it? So is everything about this story.

Editing to add that in an email this morning I theorized this could be some kind of sociology experiment, like whatever they were doing when Stockholm Syndrome was discovered. Which I meant to look up before writing this but spent most of my day raking leaves so now I'm having to rush to catch up.

Maybe someone knows something about that.

[Bluefox]

Gerry and Kate McCann's hopes of seeing details of their daughter's disappearance have been dashed - despite a change in Portuguese secrecy laws
This week's shake-up in the country's laws will make it easier for people - including official suspects in a case, like the McCanns - to access police investigation files.

Previously, all information in police files had to remain secret.

But the McCanns have told Sky News Online the overhaul will not lift the veil on documents concerning their daughter's disappearance.

Family spokesman Clarence Mitchell said the couple had been informed by the Portuguese legal system that it would not apply to "complex" cases like Madeleine's.

The McCanns had hoped the change would end the rumour and speculation that has surrounded the police inquiry

Carlos Pinto de Abreu, the McCanns' family lawyer, had been a prime mover behind the new legislation, and had hailed it as an important step towards a more open system.

The changes follow complaints that officers made a series of blunders in the Madeleine investigation, including failing to seal off the crime scene

There have been accusations that detectives have been hiding behind the secrecy rules to conceal these errors.

Many have blamed the information vacuum under the old rules for encouraging leaks to the media.

These have included claims about forensic evidence in the McCanns' hire car, and suggestions that Kate McCann's diary shows she had trouble controlling her children.

Police have named the McCanns as official suspects in their daughter's disappearance, and have submitted a 1,000-page dossier against them

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,91210-1292701,00.html

.................................................. .........................
I hate the way this case is going, it gives no answers at all because of all the blunders. We may never know what happened to Madeleine or where she is.

[Kellapple]

Did anyone else read this news report? http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/06/13/missing.mccann/
I hope to God it is not true!! Please be a hoax! Maddie you HAVE to be out there somewhere! :rose:

Horrible hoax if it is, I have not heard or read this. Have you seen any follow ups to this?

[bullmoose]

Horrible hoax if it is, I have not heard or read this. Have you seen any follow ups to this?

This is very old news, a lead that lead nowhere. I believe that the area was searched with cadaver dogs but when nothing was found the search was ended. I myself haven't seen anything new on this lead for some months. JMHO

[docwho3]

. . .I'm having a hard time finding DocWho's post about Von Aesch. Maybe he remembers what page it's on. . .
The posts I made were post numbers 644, 663, 1170. The last two posts being more informative than the first.


#644
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=8990728&postcount=644

#663
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=8991735&postcount=663

#1170
http://boards.crimelibrary.com/showpost.php?p=9035499&postcount=1170

I hope that helps.

Note: There is one minor link in the posts I made that no longer functions. It was only a link to a yahoo news article and the info may only have been moved elsewhere on their servers. I just do not know and have not searched to find the info a second time.

[Eagle1]

So glad that was checked out using the cadaver dogs. Whew! I really like to think she's still alive.

Now I have a new question.

Could apparent pedophiles like Von Aesch be connected to a secret organization or movement called Common Purpose? Tried to start a thread asking about that but no response.

[rashomon]

Jane Tanner says she saw a man carrying a child shortly before Madeleine was reported missing.

Was the chid asleep whom the man carried? If yes, what are the odds that a child would stay fast asleep when removed from its bed by a total stranger who actually had to climb out a window with her?
Also, pictures of the room show that one of the twins' beds was right under the window through which the man allegedly had climbed out.

Maddie would have stayed asleep though if she had been been sedated by her parents.
It would interest me where exactly Jane Tanner saw the man.

jmo

[LadyFisher]

I just watched the 48 Hours program that focused on Madeline....I am convinced she was kidnapped.....taken from her bed......the parents' routine was the same every night, it would not have been difficult for a pedophile watching to sneak into their room and remove her! JMHO My prayer is...she will be found alive and returned to her family...this is just so sad! jmho:rose: :rose: :rose: For Maddy and her family!:rose:

[LadyFisher]

Jane Tanner says she saw a man carrying a child shortly before Madeleine was reported missing.

Was the chid asleep whom the man carried? If yes, what are the odds that a child would stay fast asleep when removed from its bed by a total stranger who actually had to climb out a window with her?
Also, pictures of the room show that one of the twins' beds was right under the window through which the man allegedly had climbed out.

Maddie would have stayed asleep though if she had been been sedated by her parents.
It would interest me where exactly Jane Tanner saw the man.

jmoI saw on the 48 hours program that one of their female friends spotted a man carrying a small child....she said she did think it was odd at the time, but never gave a thought that it might have been Maddie until later......Rash, small children sleep deeply and are not easily awakened...haven't we all been in a car and our little ones fell asleep, we carried them in and put them to bed without them even knowing it! JMHO

[Eagle1]

I saw on the 48 hours program that one of their female friends spotted a man carrying a small child....she said she did think it was odd at the time, but never gave a thought that it might have been Maddie until later......Rash, small children sleep deeply and are not easily awakened...haven't we all been in a car and our little ones fell asleep, we carried them in and put them to bed without them even knowing it! JMHO


That's so true, kids can sleep very soundly.

I think it was in the Updates Only thread that I just read Jane Tanner may be in trouble with police for discussing the case. Seems like they should change that law, right?

Pretty obviously the abductor didn't exit through that window. A man was seen hiding in a stairwell as if he were a lookout, so maybe she was taken right out the front door.

Gerry has powerful connections and is a gov't doctor, we've heard, so, I don't yet know anything about "Common Purpose", evidently something new that not many know about, and whether any parents ever would let them take their children for a while to experiment with personality-changing or anything like that. Mind you I'm certainly not stating anything like that as an opinion. It's just that it was unusual for Kate and her mother to at first talk like Maddie was a problem. Others says Maddie was/is a shy little angel, tried to help out when the family were in a restaurant by trying to drag a high chair over for one of the twins. She looked rather shy when the videographer at the day care asked her some question, I wish I had listened closely to. It made the child awfully thoughtful until she looked up again at the questionner and saw that he had apparently moved on. That video always has music on it now so you can't hear the question, none of us thought was related to her disappearance, at the time.

[rashomon]

That's so true, kids can sleep very soundly.
....
Pretty obviously the abductor didn't exit through that window. A man was seen hiding in a stairwell as if he were a lookout, so maybe she was taken right out the front door.

We all know how soundly children can sleep, but could the abductor know Maddie wouldn't wake up? An abductor who ran an immensely high risk anyway, kidnapping her her from a holiday resort buzzing with people?
If he didn't climb through that window, how did he get out?
Very hard to imagine that he had the boldness to carry the child out through the main entrance. If anyone could post the layout of the McCann apartment, TIA.
Where exactly did Jane Tanner see the man?

jmo

[LadyFisher]

That's so true, kids can sleep very soundly.

I think it was in the Updates Only thread that I just read Jane Tanner may be in trouble with police for discussing the case. Seems like they should change that law, right?

Pretty obviously the abductor didn't exit through that window. A man was seen hiding in a stairwell as if he were a lookout, so maybe she was taken right out the front door.

Gerry has powerful connections and is a gov't doctor, we've heard, so, I don't yet know anything about "Common Purpose", evidently something new that not many know about, and whether any parents ever would let them take their children for a while to experiment with personality-changing or anything like that. Mind you I'm certainly not stating anything like that as an opinion. It's just that it was unusual for Kate and her mother to at first talk like Maddie was a problem. Others says Maddie was/is a shy little angel, tried to help out when the family were in a restaurant by trying to drag a high chair over for one of the twins. She looked rather shy when the videographer at the day care asked her some question, I wish I had listened closely to. It made the child awfully thoughtful until she looked up again at the questionner and saw that he had apparently moved on. That video always has music on it now so you can't hear the question, none of us thought was related to her disappearance, at the time.

We can only hope she is still alive and this has a happy ending as did the Shawn Hornbeck case here in Missouri and the Elizabeth Smart case did.....I'm just praying that the sicko that abducted Maddie doesn't have her as long as the creep that did Shawn..........my heart does go out to these parents....they had no reason to murder their beloved child...they had tried many times to get pregnant before Maddie and was not successful...obviously Kate and Gerry adored their children....this is another case imho just like the JBR case....and inept PD that only is focusing on the family due to statistics! Arrrgh! It just burns my biscuits! JMHO

[balaney]

Are the locations of where the bag of clothes were found and the sighting of the couple on the side of the road with the "madeleine" little girl close to each other?

[sharlock]

We all know how soundly children can sleep, but could the abductor know Maddie wouldn't wake up? An abductor who ran an immensely high risk anyway, kidnapping her her from a holiday resort buzzing with people?
If he didn't climb through that window, how did he get out?
Very hard to imagine that he had the boldness to carry the child out through the main entrance. If anyone could post the layout of the McCann apartment, TIA.
Where exactly did Jane Tanner see the man?

jmo
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/09_03/mccanngraphicES2009_800x622.jpg
Hope this helps Rash.

[Jayelles]

That's so true, kids can sleep very soundly.

I think it was in the Updates Only thread that I just read Jane Tanner may be in trouble with police for discussing the case. Seems like they should change that law, right?

Pretty obviously the abductor didn't exit through that window. A man was seen hiding in a stairwell as if he were a lookout, so maybe she was taken right out the front door.

Gerry has powerful connections and is a gov't doctor, we've heard, so, I don't yet know anything about "Common Purpose", evidently something new that not many know about, and whether any parents ever would let them take their children for a while to experiment with personality-changing or anything like that. Mind you I'm certainly not stating anything like that as an opinion. It's just that it was unusual for Kate and her mother to at first talk like Maddie was a problem. Others says Maddie was/is a shy little angel, tried to help out when the family were in a restaurant by trying to drag a high chair over for one of the twins. She looked rather shy when the videographer at the day care asked her some question, I wish I had listened closely to. It made the child awfully thoughtful until she looked up again at the questionner and saw that he had apparently moved on. That video always has music on it now so you can't hear the question, none of us thought was related to her disappearance, at the time.

Just for the record - Gerry McCann isn't a "Government doctor". He works for the National Health Service same as the vast majority of British doctors. The NHS is run by the State.

To say he is a "Government Doctor" is extremely misleading and may conjure up an entirely false impression for some people.

[sharlock]

Just for the record - Gerry McCann isn't a "Government doctor". He works for the National Health Service same as the vast majority of British doctors. The NHS is run by the State.

To say he is a "Government Doctor" is extremely misleading and may conjure up an entirely false impression for some people.
Thankyou for clarifying that for us Jayelles as it is important that we are dealing with facts and not conjecture!:beer:

[Eagle1]

Thankyou for clarifying that for us Jayelles as it is important that we are dealing with facts and not conjecture!:beer:

To clarify, whatever source I was quoting had just been shortening five words or more into two words, not really a big point at all. But if you need it spelled out more, fine. There you go.

Meanwhile, I didn't jot down which newspaper, but some people are now saying Murat's girlfriend was the one who was seen sitting in a car receiving the child in a blanket from a man, about 100 miles from the resort, if I have skimmed this correctly. Watch for it from another source in case I didn't. Just a hint in advance. I am not in a contest with anyone, just read this for my own information without any intention at the time, of posting it. Odette will have it, I'm sure, if she hasn't already posted it. That may even be where I raad this.

[andU]

Just for the record - Gerry McCann isn't a "Government doctor". He works for the National Health Service same as the vast majority of British doctors. The NHS is run by the State.

To say he is a "Government Doctor" is extremely misleading and may conjure up an entirely false impression for some people.


Jayelles! What a treat to see you back posting! It is always good to 'see' you! Thank you for your input, I just knew that you could offer something on this!

[Pak31]

Just from reading the above layout of the apartment, can someone tell me if they know this answer.....It says that someone could have entered the apartment from the unlocked patio doors. Were the patio doors left unlocked intentionally?? Or did the McCann's forget to lock them? Or did one of the friends forget?? Thanks, just curious.

[Eagle1]

Don't know about the patio doors, sorry. I forget. But the NHS being run by the state is about the same as being run by the gov't. Not a terribly important point anyway.

I haven't been on since this morning and it's now getting dark without the thread having moved on. We're all busy getting ready for American Thanksgiving, right? Everyone have a happy one.

[Nerida]

It really is so sad that Madeleine is still missing after all this time. While it would be nice to not conjecture, there really are so little facts to go on. Getting involved means almost sharing the pain and frustration, which is the reason I guess most people resort to NIMBY status (not in my backyard). The people here seem different, and the messages of support on the website are heartfelt and must be comforting to the McCanns.

The lack of capacity for empathy is the only reason I can see for the negative comments, and when you look at the big picture ( forget the details), there really is no evidence or case against. Not hiring a babysitter you could not trust, and providing flow through ventilation for kids in my books does not constitute any negligence. Sure anyone can be more vigilant in retospect, but being a parent, I know it could have happened to us or anyone else. If you had to assign blame, 0.001% goes to the parents and 99.999% goes to the abductors. I wish people would concentrate on the 99.999%. (By the way, 2 weeks ago, my last fortune cookie read "your wish is about to come true").

Sometimes, when things are not so good, it is nice to listen to songs and pretend the lyrics are about you. One of my favorite songs is "Somebody's crying" by Chris Isaak and the lyrics run like this "Someone called your name a million times but yet you never came" - " why won't you return the love you took from me". Then the lyrics change from somebody's crying, to trying, to lying, and I always get the feeling the pj is covering up something. Really they have done everything except look for Madeleine and it is about time someone gave them a real blast. In my books they deserve more than that. Each day could bring Madeleine one day closer, but prayers, ignorance, finger-pointing and retrospective criticism do not help. Action does, and if Metedo? can provide this, bring it on! Before Xmas would be nice, but at this stage anything will do.

[andU]

It really is so sad that Madeleine is still missing after all this time. While it would be nice to not conjecture, there really are so little facts to go on. Getting involved means almost sharing the pain and frustration, which is the reason I guess most people resort to NIMBY status (not in my backyard). The people here seem different, and the messages of support on the website are heartfelt and must be comforting to the McCanns.

The lack of capacity for empathy is the only reason I can see for the negative comments, and when you look at the big picture ( forget the details), there really is no evidence or case against. Not hiring a babysitter you could not trust, and providing flow through ventilation for kids in my books does not constitute any negligence. Sure anyone can be more vigilant in retospect, but being a parent, I know it could have happened to us or anyone else. If you had to assign blame, 0.001% goes to the parents and 99.999% goes to the abductors. I wish people would concentrate on the 99.999%. (By the way, 2 weeks ago, my last fortune cookie read "your wish is about to come true").

Sometimes, when things are not so good, it is nice to listen to songs and pretend the lyrics are about you. One of my favorite songs is "Somebody's crying" by Chris Isaak and the lyrics run like this "Someone called your name a million times but yet you never came" - " why won't you return the love you took from me". Then the lyrics change from somebody's crying, to trying, to lying, and I always get the feeling the pj is covering up something. Really they have done everything except look for Madeleine and it is about time someone gave them a real blast. In my books they deserve more than that. Each day could bring Madeleine one day closer, but prayers, ignorance, finger-pointing and retrospective criticism do not help. Action does, and if Metedo? can provide this, bring it on! Before Xmas would be nice, but at this stage anything will do.

I pretty much agree with everything you have said except one. That one thing is a huge thing, IMO. There is mighty power in praying; I believe that with all of my heart. I will continue to pray and I sincerely hope that everyone else does. When nothing else is within our power; when the answers don't come - we who believe go the One who has the power to do anything, "All things are possible with God", that is a quote from the Bible. I choose to believe that God is in control and that Maddie will be found and returned to her parents. These things are of my opinon, of course and I would not force anyone to accept my opinion. I just wanted to share, as you have.

[dallasvic]

Hi Everyone,

I have been in the hospital so I am way behind. C an anyone Please Tell what is so important about this doctor ?I was just wondering. Is it that important.

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/CozyNWarm/Sayings/5a76573bf32b7776d111d0a750d5326d.gif


http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/CozyNWarm/Candles/Animation22.gif

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff305/CozyNWarm/maddie_383452a.jpg
http://www.gratefulness.org/candles/...l=eng&gi=maddy Let us all remember The victim.

[Eagle1]

It's probably just me or my computer but I can't get the links to work,
so must ask What Doctor? Can't even find the Quote button. It's early, so it's probably just me.

Anyway, glad you're feeling at least enough better to be out of the hospital.

[andU]

Hi Everyone,

I have been in the hospital so I am way behind. C an anyone Please Tell what is so important about this doctor ?I was just wondering. Is it that important. (snipped from quote

[/CENTER]

Dallasvic, I hope you are all healed up. I've missed you both here and at the Lounge! You are in my prayers.

[sieg66]

This is so clearly NOT a crime of opportunity.......I just don't see a pedophile child molestor going around trying out doors in a holiday village in a apartment complex just to see if one is open and if there happens to be a suitable unattended child in it .Though that did happen to Polly Klaas I just now remebered. But her attacker was quickly identified. And her house was in the middle of nowwhere........So if she was taken by someone else it had to be someone who knew she was there and alone.....somone who worked there or one of the guests.....

[dallasvic]

Hi andU,
I have missed being online. I miss everyone and Thank you for the kind words. I love posting with you. You have great idea. So what has been going on on here.

Dallasvic, I hope you are all healed up. I've missed you both here and at the Lounge! You are in my prayers.


Hi sieg66,
Welcome to CL. Look forward to posting with you more.
To help you get alittle up to date. At one point in the trip before Maddie went missing the were all playing in the park and they had taken pic's and it shows 2 guys in the back ground. Just looking at the kids and Gerry playing. Mrs. McCann took the pic. These guys are looking at the kids and there was no reason for them to be there. Not really I don't think anyway.
There also is a guy named Murat or something like that and he was there when everyone was running around looking for Maddie and people seen him there and he says he was not there.
He is the one that I think took her. If not why did he lie about being there. If you have done nothing wrong then why lie about it.
Hope that helps some.If you have not read all the articles and there are alot of the it is hard to keep up with. If you need to or would like to know anything about the case just ask and we will see if we can find the link for you to read it to help you get up to date.
I know it is hard when you first start and there is so much reading to do I mean on this case the is a hole lot.
Have you found the Maddie update thread that our great odette post. She keeps us up to date with so many articles that it will drive you CRAZY.
I stay dazed and :confused: :confused: all the time. One minute it's McCann's and the next minute they are looking at someone else. You will not know if you are coming or going.LOL:eek: :shrug:
Welcome again and look forward to posting with you alot more. Also if you every need to talk or have a question feel free to PM me anytime.:seeya:
Your Friend Dallasvic

This is so clearly NOT a crime of opportunity.......I just don't see a pedophile child molestor going around trying out doors in a holiday village in a apartment complex just to see if one is open and if there happens to be a suitable unattended child in it .Though that did happen to Polly Klaas I just now remebered. But her attacker was quickly identified. And her house was in the middle of nowwhere........So if she was taken by someone else it had to be someone who knew she was there and alone.....somone who worked there or one of the guests.....

[Nerida_F]

I guess Metodo3 are not up to the task after all. And so Christmas rolls around, and still there is gridlock without any answers. While there has been no news, sometimes no news is good news. That Madeleine's body has not been found is almost proof that the is still alive, and while there is life, there is hope. For Kate and Gerry, it must be hard to know what to do, but always doing your best is a good mantra to follow.

The only real facts to come to light so far, are that Kate and Gerry are totally innocent, given the amount of slander and cheap articles written. The other fact is that the police are completely guilty - at least some of them. The facts speak for themselves - cigarette ash in the evidence, missing bedclothes, a slack attitude, delayed investigating of Moroccan sighting, finding suspects as far away as possible, not interviewing Carolina Santos' parents, endless baseless allegations, astute police resigning, long lunches, willingness to close the investigation, unwillingness to do any real work, previous record for torture!! Well, I am pretty fed up with this deception, and if it was up to me, I would be letting it all out - forget the stiff upper lip - I hate Portugal, and I hate Portuguese who let kids be abducted. I don't care what the Portuguese word is for suspect, only that the truth should be revealed. A well aimed attack on the Portuguese police at the right time may break down this wall of deception, and in the rubble the tail of the monster that took Madeleine might be found. The best defence is a good offence, and I bet there are enough supporters out there who would like to see a fightback. Madeleine has now been missing for 231 days longer than she should have.

[Babootje]

Nerida: I guess Metodo3 are not up to the task after all. I agree on this with you Nerida
The only real facts to come to light so far, are that Kate and Gerry are totally innocent, given the amount of slander and cheap articles written.
I disagree ont this with you; how can you state that they are totally innocent, while the fact is that they left 3 very small children alone in an appartment in a strange country, not bothering to hire the available baby sit, for the only reason to wine and dine with their friends. If they behaved more responsible we wouldn't have a discussion, would we? The fact that they left their children alone, only that, led to the situation we now all discuss.

The other fact is that the police are completely guilty - at least some of them. The facts speak for themselves - cigarette ash in the evidence, missing bedclothes, a slack attitude, delayed investigating of Moroccan sighting, finding suspects as far away as possible, not interviewing Carolina Santos' parents, endless baseless allegations, astute police resigning, long lunches, willingness to close the investigation, unwillingness to do any real work, previous record for torture!! Madeleine has now been missing for 231 days longer than she should have.
I agree that the police in the beginning made mistakes by not sealing the appartment, the ashes (is hear say, not prooven).
The McCanns in fact, did not cooperate, went against the advise of the police to spread photo's and distinctive marks and so deliberately took the risk that an abductor would want to get rid of Madeleine. In my opinion one may be critical to the McCanns. We will see...

[Seashell]

The McCanns in fact, did not cooperate, went against the advise of the police to spread photo's and distinctive marks and so deliberately took the risk that an abductor would want to get rid of Madeleine.
Sadly you got it right.

[Nerida_F]

The McCanns in fact, did not cooperate, went against the advise of the police to spread photo's and distinctive marks and so deliberately took the risk that an abductor would want to get rid of Madeleine. In my opinion one may be critical to the McCanns. We will see...

Interesting, I will add these items to the list:
Police did not seal the room.
Police advised against the very logical step of posters and photos in public places.
Also, the police accused the McCann's straight after the suggestions that the police were not looking hard enough.
And now the blue bag. This is interesting, since it appears the police may be trying to fabricate evidence to indite the parents. What this does highlight, is that the police seem to be very desperate to hide some crucial information.

There has been so much Kate and Gerry bashing that it has become boring and even farcical. While lots of people harp on about Murat, the idea of him abducting Maddie and then helping the next day seems too bizarre to be real. But since there are no facts, basically everyone involved is a suspect, and I am not sure how many police are involved, but it seems strange not one policeman has been suspected. If it turns out that the abductor is a relative of a certain policeman, that would come as no surprise to me. There seems to be a theory that the best chance for Madeleine is to leave the police to do their job, but looking under their guise of complacency, I would guess that a few accusations may speed along the investigation. I hope Kate, Gerry and the other investigators know now to workaround the police and not with them unless there is some dramatic change.

While, 2008 heralds a new year, there is still reasonable hope that Madeleine will be found this year, and from some brief looks at child abductions, a reasonably high percentage seem to be solved around the 9months-1year mark give or take a bit. I guess the main idea is to look at this as a problem to be solved logically, and try to keep the emotion away since emotion leads to worry and sometimes the wrong course of action. There are several ways to solve a problem, but most of the them involve: discover info, understand the info, act on the info. The best way to solve a problem is to follow the facts, but when facts are few, probabilites may be used. The last way to solve a problem is to use conjecture (ie guess), and then try out each of a million possibilities but this takes time. If Madeleine was taken by pedophiles, her chance of survival drops, but hopefully this probability is low. One probability is that Madeleine may have been taken for money, and if this was the case, the amount would have to be large, and this would make Madeleine worth a lot to the payer, which would increase her chance of safety. The abductor may have a reason for needing money such as organ transplant or to feed 10 kids. Offering the abductor freedom from prosecution in exchange for info would be a huge step forward.

As Jayelles said in another thread, any other ideas on how we can bring Madeleine home, or even a process to get some more facts would be much more helpful than blaming the parents. Once a problem happens, assigning blame really only doubles the number of problems and delays solving the original problem. The real criminal here is the abductor and associates, and not the poor judgment of the parents. Remember that almost every parent will lose their kids for a few minutes at some stage, and the really frightening thing about Madeleine's disappearance was the abductor's trespass into a family bedroom.

Here is another website (http://save-yar.org/) about a similar abduction
Here is one (http://www.briansdreams.com/dd/5441.htm) for the psychics or those with time to waste.

AndU, my point about praying is that it would be wise to rely too much on praying as a solution. There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you choose to believe in God, there is nothing to say that he is not watching and waiting for someone to find Madeleine while he keeps her safe. If you don't believe, then it is still up to someone to find her and bring her back. And believing in fate is another fallacy - proactive is the only way to be! To balance that last sentence, 8 is a lucky number in China, so here's to sending Madeleine all the good luck she needs in 2008.

Since the demise of Odette's thread, I am not sure what the press is up to, but those reports about the silly accusations from the police are now very boring and bland. The news of the blond-haired girl in Morocco was exciting, but too good to be true. When (or if?) Madeleine is found, she is sure to look different, with at least different colour and length hair.

[Jayelles]

Your posts always restore my faith in human nature Nerida :-)